It was hard not to be surprised by the recent Green Car Book ranking of the Chevrolet Volt, which placed it just 13th in a list of most environmentally friendly vehicles. The Volt, after all, has a 60-mpg combined EPA sticker rating.
The list, compiled by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE), a non-profit group funded by foundations, electric utilities and government agencies, “doesn’t add up,” according to GM spokesman Rob Peterson. “If you look at the EPA ratings for the Smart fortwo… it’s actually less than the Volt’s after the electric range is exhausted. We’re being penalized against the Smart because our car is a four-seater with a battery pack and therefore weighs more. And we lose against the Leaf because we have a gas engine.”
The Green Car Book ranked the Volt so poorly because of its 37-mpg average once the initial electric charge has been depleted. But within the 25 to 50 mile range that the charge allows, the Volt gets an EPA-estimated 93-mpg.
Peterson insists that the Green Car Book doesn’t take into account “how the car is actually used” noting that many owners will almost never run out of electric charge.
The Volt’s big rival, the Nissan Leaf, placed second in the Green Car Book‘s ranking. It gets an EPA-rated 99-mpg, but with a limited range of 73 miles. The winner? The natural gas-powered Honda Civic GX.
[Source: Forbes]
This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 22nd, 2011 at 9:09 am and is filed under General. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+28
Feb 22nd, 2011 (9:32 am)When I read reports on GM-Volt.com of some Volt owners getting from 100 to 300 MPG, I find it difficult to believe that Volt is not the gold standard in REAL WORLD automobile efficiency.
When I saw that #13 ranking I thought that something was terribly wrong with how they did their rankings.
Truth usually finds it way to the top if given enough time.
+3
Feb 22nd, 2011 (9:37 am)Sounds like the Volt was not designed against the criteria of this organization’s idea of a “green car”. Not to sound negative…I wonder if cost/price is used in the judging and anything over $40K gets penalized severely. A vehicle priced out of the range of most buyers means most buyers will be driving something else. I know a so-called generous lease exists (sorry…I have negative view of vehicle leases), but it may not be taken into account.
+15
Feb 22nd, 2011 (9:43 am)Follow the money. Where does the “American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy” get its funding from? I’m sure that would explain a lot.
+19
Feb 22nd, 2011 (9:54 am)Very glad to see a GM person weighing in.
Once we get people’s butts in enough seats, word of mouth will continue to sell every Volt that is produced. Every Volt sold generates more On*Star data that validates the real-world performance of the Volt. In a way, it’s a shame that Numbers 1 – 12 on the list will not have such exacting data! I still wish that they had the option I’ve talked about of a scrolling LED sign mounted on the trunk that lists the miles driven and the gallons used. If it didn’t lead to too much road rage, it would surely lead to a lot of envy (and shame).
I’m praying for the people/countries in the Middle East, but it sure doesn’t look good. Economic concerns are way down the list, but they *are* a reality that will effect the rest of the world.
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Feb 22nd, 2011 (9:55 am)CorvetteGuy,
So who *does* fund them?
Be well,
Tagamet
+20
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:10 am)CorvetteGuy: Follow the money. Where does the “American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy” get its funding from? I’m sure that would explain a lot.
The laundry list of funding is here:
http://www.aceee.org/about/funding
Just look at all the energy companies further down the list.
How an all gas operated vehicle can be more green than the Volt makes NO sense, but there were groups on the funding list that were not happy with the EV-1. Those groups don’t give money for nothing.
I’d rather drive my plug-in Red Volt and be truly “green” instead of driving any of the other gas operated cars in the list.
+11
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:12 am)Even with all the cold and my engine running due to temperature, this last month my Volt report shows I got 88MPG. To say that all those vehicles is above the Volt simply because of the Volt’s weight/manufacturing footprint seems very suspect. This summer I’ll never use gas.
join thE REVolution
+12
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:29 am)Leave it to people who respect their agenda more than giving a truthful, unbiased and
honorable analysis. They are willing to destroy something in order for their crap to prevail.
+18
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:41 am)I agree! Based simply on the several car’s EPA ratings, this ACEEE ranking is clearly reckless and irresponsible! But whether the ranking was influenced by their funding sources or not, we need to remember the EPA RATINGS ARE BASED ON TESTING, not on “meta analysis” of wide ranging reports which are not actually relevant to an individual car’s performance like the EPA tests are. I read posts from Volt owners every day —so far, I can’t recall seeing even one instance of a composite average as low as 60 MPGe, which the EPA considers “Best”.* Most are well in excess of 100 MPGe, and several owners are reporting totals of over 1,000 miles using less than 2-3 gals of gas!
These bogus ACEEE results are a modern example of the infamous way so-called scholars in the middle ages scoffed at the idea of actually counting the number of teeth in a horse’s mouth.
* Wouldn’t we all be surprised if our conventional cars just MET the EPA’s ratings consistently? So far, Volt owners are reporting just the opposite —their Volts are consistently EXCEEDING the EPA’s Volt ratings!
+14
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:42 am)I’m normally not one to seek legal solutions, but in this case maybe GM should issue a legal challenge. It might stand up more easily after a few additional months of actual Volt experience, but it still seems like a cut-and-dried case of deliberate slander.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remember; typing
ahead of your comment displays it in black text!
.
+10
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:43 am)I dont see how they can rank both an all electric and the Prius above the Volt, I’ll admit for 45 to 80 mile range driving an all electric would be better, and for 150+ mile drives a Prius would be better, but for under 45 miles and 80-150 mile trips the Volt is as good if not better then either.
They should take into account the need to own a second car, if you have an all electric, thats what I’d have to do if I didnt have the Volt.
What about the extra distances you have to drive to refill a compressed natural gas car, there isnt even a single public CNG station in New Jersey.
Is this the same group that said the Hummer was more Environmentally friendly then the Prius?
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:49 am)With all of the alternative fuels under consideration, it would be nice if the scientific folks could come up with a standard for comparing all vehicles fairly. ACEEE tried, but I think they failed. Cost per mile, btu’s or kwh of energy to travel 100 miles, ?. Even a simple Energy Star rating for vehicles that exceed a certain percentage (40%?) of the average vehicle fuel economy for the class would be helpful.
Here’s a link to one particular energy star standard:
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=clotheswash.pr_crit_clothes_washers
+3
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:51 am)It is very important for anyone that HAS NOT committed to the Volt yet to run his or her expected driving cycle for a whole year on a spreadsheet. If all you are doing is running all electric then it’s a real Duhh to figure out that the Volt is a good choice.
However, If you are running only around 50% electric AND you are paying 20 cents/kwh for electric then there is a chance that you will pay more for your TOTAL fuel cost than just going w/ a simple hybrid.
If you don’t care about total fuel cost and just believe that cutting gas use is the main driver (as most here do) then ignore total fuel cost and look at gallons per year. Even if you are running only 50% electric your still getting around 75 MPG.
Also, I strongly suggest getting some PV in to hedge your bet on electricity prices. However, you need a pretty good rebate from your utility. Once again run the numbers. Figure your total system cost and a 20-25 year life of the panels to figure your cents/kwh of the system. If you can lock in 10 cents/ kwh then do it. The fed tax rebate won’t last forever.
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:52 am)They probably get their money from AL ….. (wait for it) ……. GORE !
— insert creepy organ music riff: (((DUNT-DUNT-DAAAAHHHHHH))) —
+9
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:07 am)[sarcasm on]
I’ve developed a clean diesel semi truck and trailer system that gets 100 miles per gallon. Too bad it weighs 30,000 pounds, so it can’t be considered “green”.
[sarcasm off]
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:12 am)So maybe we should send a letter of protest to the entities providing their funding, working off of this list (if we can find their email addresses). What do you guys think?
.
+13
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:14 am)Odd that the Volt seems to have been dinked because of overall weight. My thinking says a school bus that achieves 250mpg is a winner over an Aptera that achieves 250mpg. It would take 20 trips with an Aptera to transport 20 kids. Am I wrong on this? Wouldn’t a 100mpg Suburban beat out a 100mpg two seat Honda?
BTW: The Mobil station in Santa Barbara just posted their new prices.
$4.009 middle grade
$4.079 premium grade
NPNS
+7
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:26 am)I posted this before, but I dont think they even accounted for things such as GM’s patented battery refurbing, by replacing the electrolyte. Did they account for the fuel used to transport the foreign cars to the US? How about the efficiency of the forein plants manufacturing these cars including the income levels of the employees at the plants and thus the cars they are forced to drive? You can go on and on with this type of stuff. I can make lists too. Who cares. As Joe Friday said “Just the facts ma’am”.
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:27 am)If you have aggressive regenerative braking on a 3800 lbs. Volt which recovers 50% of the energy accelerating it and 50% of the energy used to climb hills, wouldn’t that make it’s corrected weight about 1900 lbs. (not sure what the actual percentage recovered is, but the physics is still sound and applicable)
Just askin’
Jerry, #536
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:28 am)LOL.. Jackson i used your “a” “/a” and it made my comment green, which they are normally black when I do nothing.
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:29 am)#17
Ouch! Makes me feel good about taking the plunge on the Volt though. And ought to help sell a few more, LOL.
+3
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:30 am)I think its more like 25%, but point taken. They need to ignore things like weight, and look at the final #’s… the bottom line is what really matters.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:31 am)#18
The bottom line. My sentiments exactly. +1
FUD IMHO. Next case.
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:35 am)Ok, so the corrected weight would be about 2950 lbs. Just that one statistic, compared to all the cars that have no regenerative braking, would make a huge difference in “greeness”
Jerry, #536
+5
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:36 am)I don’t need to run the #’s (even though I have). I just want to drive a cool electric car. This will be my only car, so it needs a range extender. So far, there is only 1 product on the market like this, the Volt.
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:38 am)This is really hurting my eyes to read the green posts. Once again, the site people should fix it for everybody. Other than that, you can start your posts with a reply to somebody or a quote of somebody, and then type your message after the coding. I really want to be able to read people’s comments, but I can’t read the long ones for sure without getting eye actual fatigue.
BTW, BlindGuy, how are you doing with reading these?
+7
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:39 am)I think the ACEEE is shooting themselves in the foot for penalizing the Volt so heavily based on weight of the car and efficiency of the ICE. If the organization’s ultimate goal is to get lots of people driving highly efficient cars, (and the Volt is one of the most efficient, if not THE most efficient), then they are crippling their own cause. I say this because the headlines of various media are not going to be “Volt among the most efficient cars available”. They will read “Volt beaten by 11 other green cars” and “Volt last on green car list”, etc. With friends like the ACEEE, who needs enemies?!
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:40 am)Hmm. What browser are you using? Did you include the less-than / greater-than symbols? Where in the comments did you insert the string? I want this workaround to actually work; maybe I need to label it as working only for Firefox.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:45 am)Here is a test of
using IE (NOTE: I don’t see green text using this browser, including your original comment)
.
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:57 am)Liars figure aand figures lie.
You can make numbers say anything you want.
This was obviously the agenda of American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE).
The truth is 75% of Americans drive 40 miles or less each day… and they will be getting at least 100 mpg twice the MPG as the Prius… and many will be getting the 230mpg or more.
+4
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:00 pm)The weight issue is just ridiculous. Battery packs have weight…………
And the real problem is in how the use of the car was calculated. Most Volt drivers are not going to be using the ICE anywhere near as much as was used in the ACEEE’s calculations. How in the world did they come up with their figures?
Sorry, but I simply will mark this report as junk science.
JMHO
Note to GM: Since I have to wait for a 2012 model, can you please add light blue metallic to the list of available colors to choose from? And I like the new MyLink Telematics System!!!
NPNS
Have Outlet – Ready For EREV In Ohio!!!
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:05 pm)#25
Right on! +1
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:07 pm)#30
Yup! +!
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:09 pm)Even though I don’t think my crystal ball is any better then anybody elses. I do think in the future that fuel will be much more expensive. The rate of increase over time seems to be climbing at an ever increasing rate. My reason for getting the Volt besides the fact that I really do like the car is that if we should go through a period were gasoline is in short supply, like in the 70′s, due to problems in the world energy market, then I have a backup, Electricity, and we will still be able to generate it, even if the world energy markets fall appart.
P
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:09 pm)Haven’t we been talking about this for 5 days?
Different topic for conversation over at http://thechevyvoltblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/helping-country-and-environment-not.html I think this one may have been beaten to death.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:13 pm)OK so a couple weeks ago GM anounced the 550 HP Camaro ZL1:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/09/autos/camaro_zr1/index.htm
An interesting quote from there:
The ZL1 is a “halo” car that will spark more consumer interest than sales, said Lassa. While pricing hasn’t been announced yet, it’s almost certain to be the most expensive Camaro available. Ultimately, he said, it will be one of the few models in GM’s line-up that will sell in lower number than the Volt.
In other news BMW creates a new brand BMWi which focuses on electric and plugin hybrid performance cars. These are real and will hit the roads in 2013 or earlier:
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/02/new-bmw-brand-for-line-of-electric-vehicles/1
In other news Rolls Royce is inthe game now with an electric concept car (but it’s not being built yet):
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/21/autos/rolls-royce_102ex_electric/
… So do we really need a 550 HP Camaro!? I guess those (with $$$) nostalgic for the glory days of the 60s muscle car will be around a bit longer.
Give me quiet roads full of electric cars any day.
See Helen, it ain’t that hard. Trying to generate continued fuss about a stupid green rating that has no credibility just won’t have legs.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:17 pm)BTW, BlindGuy, how are you doing with reading these?
Actually, I don’t read the screen with my eyes at all. I do have some light perception but I use a screen reading software called JAWS [Jobbs Accessable With Speech]. I never knew the text was green until it was mentioned. Maybe changing faunt colors or background colors in Control Panel might help.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:32 pm)Blue yes, telematics no. Actually I would prefer a stronger blue than “light blue metallic.”
Agreed.
.
+3
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:33 pm)This survey certainly has pissed off alot of people. It seems that when certain standards are chosen for the sake of comparison and not your particular situation, well the survey is obviously wrong, right? If you want to drive the greenest vehicle you must apply your driving needs and energy requirements into a formula to decide which vehicle makes the most sense for your particular situation. I wouldn’t mind a natural gas Civic, if I had reasonable access to natural gas that did not come from fracking JMO. I would however prefer our next investment to be built in America, hopefully.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:38 pm)Bolding above is mine
As a potential competitor, you should avoid sounding “snarky.” There is every reason to expect the two sites to complement each other (and for yours to stand by as a lifeboat); there is no reason to turn around and nudge the ship, even gently. JMO
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (12:50 pm)Here at work i’m using IE8. At home I use IE9. Both of them show everyones comments in black. When I used your suggestion, that was the first time it showed up green. I put a “less then” “a” “greater then” followed by a “less then” “/a” “greater then”, then typed my comment. It the post it became green, and underlined.
+6
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:04 pm)I dont think it’s about need. It’s about “will this make GM money”. If you are an anti-gm, “pay us back the $ you took”, then GM making money should sit well with you. Of course people into classic muscle cars will also love this. To me, i’m OK with GM making the car if they make $ on it (even if its a halo car to get people to buy Volts/Cruze’s). I like the fact that if someone truely does want to buy a car like this, the option is there. Now this person may have to shell out a lot of $, and may get taxed to hell, but that’s also OK w/me too. If they can afford it, and their tax $ helps the bigger picture more than the problems they create, go for it.
What GM really needs to do, is stick some hi-end Voltec into a Camaro body, that will beat the ICE version’s 0-60 time. Then everyone would buy the Voltec version (and accidentally be green(er))
+3
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:07 pm)Maybe something like the Volt from the Transformer movie?
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:21 pm)kdawg,
Weird. I do wonder why you tried this when you weren’t seeing green text to begin with.
Folks, if you are seeing green text, test
on a short message, and see if it works for you.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:24 pm)Maybe. It’s hard to get a really good blue, I’ll admit. I think I’d like something just a bit lighter, and more metallic (but not that pale, pale misty blue I’ve seen on some GM vehicles).
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:30 pm)Folks, instead of b******* at Helena about the daily posts, login and post ideas for her here:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?6882
If you think back, a new Lyle post frequently came after a commenter posted a link late in the previous thread.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:32 pm)They are missing ending tag after the reply button. That is what is causing all of the issues.
</a> To end the link.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:34 pm)A bbl of oil is up 7 % since Friday.
Any EV or environmental car is welcome in my book.
I also watched Top Gear last night and I would say I would LOVE to have one of the new Ferrari GTOs.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:40 pm)</a> To end the link.
Start your comment with this.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:44 pm)I tried that first, and it didn’t work for me.
I would like to know the html you used to display that command in your comment.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:46 pm)I think a CNG or propane Volt would be a great option down the road. Both fuels are much cheaper than gasoline, abundant, and don’t go stale. Maybe Honda’s CNG car will help establish the refill infrastructure.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (1:57 pm)Not living in the US I had not heard of this publication until reading this news. It wouldn’t affect my buying decision though even if I did as all the awards the Volt has won particularly Motortrend’s Car of the Year would be much more influential.
The Honda Natural Gas vehicle would never sell here as there is no refueling capabilities. As there is no charge points owning a leaf could be somewhat stressful especially when getting close to ‘empty’. Whereas the Volt will just keep on running.
Very strange it is ranked 13th, but won’t affect my purchasing decision or most people’s in Australia as this publication isn’t known about, except via internet searching. As GM typically publishes things such as the awards it’s vehicles have won that is what the general consumer will see.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (2:23 pm)Jackson,
I would like to know the html you used to display that command in your comment.
<+; (plus a semicolon – no plus sign) will display as <
>+; (plus a semicolon – no plus sign) will display as >
You just use the above codes in place of the < and >
Feb 22nd, 2011 (2:46 pm)Nick D,
<thanks!>
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (2:56 pm)Open-Mind,
A car like the Volt works when a new source of energy is hard to find, and an older source is common. As you say, a CNG Volt would be a great option once the supporting infrastructure for CNG is established. I think it far likelier that public recharging infrastructure will arrive before CNG, so you are looking at a future where electrical charging infrastructure is common before a meaningful CNG infrastructure can reach the point where an EREV based on it can make sense. By this time, someone might find a successful argument for hydrogen; so CNG would likely have a strong competitor.
(Hey guys, I’m not a hydrogen booster. If nothing else, H2 could theoretically be made from a wide range of hydrocarbons, but there is an outside chance that something we can’t foresee might make it a truly practical option).
A CNG Volt could happen just as you say, but I doubt it will come to pass before all (but the youngest) of us here have passed on.
.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:14 pm)I was actually excited about the natural gas Honda when I first heard of it. I think even before I heard of the Volt. It’d be pretty sweet for myself since I have natural gas pipelined right to my house. But now that the Volts around I’ll take a volt. I like the idea of charging its batteries straight from the sun with solar so much better.
John, – http://thechevyvoltblog.blogspot.com/
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:19 pm)Jackson,
Your right Jackson, I apologize.
+4
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:21 pm)So why didn’t the Tesla Roadster make the list? Or did it? If it wasn’t in the top 5, why not? It is all electric right?
/i’m lost, what was the criteria to even be on the list?!?!?!……lol
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:28 pm)How much fuel does it take to get a Prius and a Leaf across the Pacific Ocean? 100 gallons? How much Co2 is that?
How much does it cost to get the freighter back to Japan?
While we are on the subject of imports, what is the domestic content % on the Volt ?
-1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:30 pm)Get your -1′s ready….
Those are VOODOO mpg.
Drop a gallon in the car in CS mode and see if you can drive that 100mpg.
Correct me if i’m wrong but the Volt drives 100% in EV till CD is done then it goes 100% in CS mode. Along the way the Volt will “Dip” into the batt pack on hard acceleration or climb.
If it’s correct in calculating liquid consumption with an “Alternative” method of propulsion, then my sorry ass’d crap Ford Explorer was the first car to reach 99mpg going downhill till I reached the bottom 15 miles later. Gravity was my “Alternative” method of propulsion.
+4
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:39 pm)Unless I see better studies establishing the safety of hydrofrakking, I value my drinking water too much to ever buy a pure natural gas powered car.
Besides, if you are going to use natural gas, wouldn’t it be more efficient to convert it into electricity and then use it to drive?
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:39 pm)CaptJackSparrow,
You’ve been here long enough to know that this is about personal averages. Just trying to stir things up? Not enough Kahlua? If you always plug in, drive 40 miles a day the first 4 days of the week, then 100 miles on Friday, you’ve gone 260 miles on about 2 gallons of gas on average. That’s 130 mpg. If you never recharge, and drive the same distance, you’ll get something like 33 – 36 mpg; but why would you? To make a point?
“Your Mileage May Vary” didn’t start with the Volt; but unlike every other car, the Volt gives you almost complete control over how much it varies. That’s a worthy outcome, isn’t it?
Should CS-mode mpg be improved? Of course; but your argument is more voodoo than the 100mpg figure which you are attacking.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:48 pm)I’m glad it’s not a problem for you. The object of my comment wasn’t how I could fix this for me for this one site. The issue is for the site to fix it for everybody before a bunch of people leave. As I mentioned before, I can make my posts in black in one of several ways, but there are a bunch of pale green posts to wade through. I think Nick D has the real solution, but no one seems to be listening. The question now is why were they so quick to make changes last week that caused this problem, and now they are totally non-responsive.
Based on what Nick had said, I think the missing code should go between the two parentheses after the word “reply” in the line under the posting person’s name.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:49 pm)I can’t get the forums to work, but oil is up due to chaos in Libya. And I don’t think that situation is going away…
So we may be seeing four dollar gasoline very soon.
-1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:54 pm)I have to disagree there bro. That’s the fallacy.
That’s been my stance since day 1. The miles traveled in EV mode should’ve never been included with liquid/OPEC juice consumption.
You even said it yourself on a previous post to john10102093….
He posted his pic of his Prius getting the 100+ mpg from an ODB device and you denounced it saying anybody can get that going downhill and record it. OK, not those exact words but to that effect…..lol
I understand YMMV or Your driving pattern varies it, but let’s be real……how far can one go on one gallon of gas? That is what “MPG” stands for right?
Oh yeah, If anyone wants a Volt, Maita Chevy in Elk Grove brokeazzKahl-ee-for-neeya has two of them on their lot. They said they had 3 but sold one 2 months ago.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:57 pm)It was $3.43/gallon today as I pumped and cursed the OPEC juice in my car….
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (3:59 pm)OK, sup wit all the green text going on here?
+3
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:04 pm)CaptJackSparrow,
Disagree all you want, bro, but it’s not a fallacy. To say that the electric miles shouldn’t be factored in is to negate the entire argument behind the Volt; and indeed the argument behind any plugin. If you’re not going to plug in, buy a little diesel. If you’re never going over 70 miles, go buy a LEAF. Don’t pretend that your obstinate refusal to understand is actually relevant to real driving, or for real Volt owners.
Speaking of John Boy, he never seemed to understand that 60+mpg all the time is not superior to getting 33+mpg only a small portion of the time. You wouldn’t actually be the High Priust in disguise, would you?
The real CJS was smarter than this.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:06 pm)lol….
NO KAHLUA!
Dangit, i’m on Jury Duty with a mean azz Judge. She wouldn’t even let one member off for his Job Interview.
WTF?
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:10 pm)CaptJackSparrow,
Sorry, Cap’n; you are clearly under duress. Please excuse my tone in the earlier replies.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:14 pm)I’m the “Low PoFolkest”….
/cue Garth….
//’Cause I’ve got friends in low places. Where the whiskey drowns. And the beer chases my blues away……….
+3
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:27 pm)#61 Laura M Unless I see better studies establishing the safety of hydrofrakking, I value my drinking water too much to ever buy a pure natural gas powered car.
Besides, if you are going to use natural gas, wouldn’t it be more efficient to convert it into electricity and then use it to drive?
I agree with you about drinking water and fracking. The only advantage I can think of for CNG cars would be that they are less expensive to buy right now and can travel farther on one fill-up as opposed to a BEV.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:41 pm)Hey gang, ABG has an article about Lyle on their site. Sorry I still don’t know how to post links.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:48 pm)I thought it would help other readers.
BOLD <— is this better?
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:48 pm)I don’t know, but I hate it. They need to fix the site, pronto.
On the up side, it’s forcing me to learn about html codes, which I suppose is a good thing…Except that, for me, it doesn’t always work. And what works on one post doesn’t work the next. Very frustrating.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (4:52 pm)LauraM,
Your’s is the first text that showed up green for me. (other than my post at #18)
i’m putting mine in bold now.. hopefully it gets rid of the green for those seeing it.
Edit: now yours went from green to black. The edit time must have elapsed.
-10
Feb 22nd, 2011 (5:06 pm)(click to show comment)
Feb 22nd, 2011 (5:21 pm)http://www.hybridcars.com/news/global-move-gm-offer-diesel-version-chevy-cruze-29449.html
Now if they’d put the diesel in a Volt (or a 1.4 litre diesel?)
+4
Feb 22nd, 2011 (5:44 pm)Actually, many of us here (me included) look forward to higher gas prices. This is what the US needs to wake up and realize the true cost of oil. Hopefully it pushes more people to EV’s. BTW, if I bought a Leaf, I would have to buy a second ICE car. This seems wasteful and expensive. Also, GM is working on a BEV and if the market bears, they will sell them in the US, not just China. You say “time will not prove” you wrong. I agree, but I think we are on different time scales. I see BEV’s taking off in a 10 year minimum (that’s minimum) time-frame. You seem to think this year is the year. We’ll see. Ideally, i would like a BEV that can go 250miles in -20 degree weather, with the heater and radio on, at 70mph, and recharge in 8hrs. I don’t see this becoming for sale this year. I’m guessing 2021 is pushing it too.
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (5:54 pm)That’ll crush me……lol
Aint no way for me to buy a +$32,500.00 car now and aint no dangflabbin way i’ll be able to afford one when OPEC juice is $6/gal.
Bying a car will be my last priority. Keeping the fam fed and payments to the bills, home, PG&E, SMUD, Water, Sewer…..etc
Once OPEC crap goes up, so will my grocery bills. I recall the last time it went up. A boatload of interviews by news crews at grocery store vendors saying, eggs, milk blah blah is going up because the cost of fuel to “getem there” has gone up. I have yet to see interviews saying the cost is going down.
/but that’s just me…..
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:00 pm)Or at least the minimum “Flex Fuel”.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:02 pm)Post #1 is the first one to come up green 4 me.
/missing lyle now…..
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:14 pm)Other than #18, your text doesn’t look green to me. But that could be my browser?
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:18 pm)Maybe were getting ready for St. Patrick’s Day?
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:20 pm)Grocery bills are going to go up this year because of the weather. Even if oil doesn’t. There was a drought that affected the grain crops in Russia and Canada. And then there were the floods in Australia. And then there are rumors that the Chinese crop wasn’t so great this year…
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:27 pm)Lol. Please don’t give them any ideas…
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:28 pm)Jackson says:
Blue yes, telematics no. Actually I would prefer a stronger blue than “light blue metallic.”
=============================================
This is the color I have in mind – It is the same as my first car, a 1973 Mustang Mach-1:
-1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:32 pm)Although I’m a big fan of the Volt and soon-to-be owner of one, I think GM is wrong here.
The Volt doesn’t have to win every ranking and if it is a ranking of greenest vehicle with no regard of convenience or utility or practicality, etc, the Volt is simply not the best. There are several cars that get better than the 37mpg that the Volt gets after the 25-50 mile EV range is depleted, and there should be a penalty for weight since it does indicate greater material consumption and potential disposal. (Of course the inefficiency penalty for weight should already be reflected in the equivalent gas mileage numbers). A Smart car should not be penalized for being small in a “greenest car” list, and if a Leaf gets a better equivalent mileage all the time, it should score better.
There were comprimises that had to be made in order to make a car that would be practical, convenient, and useful enough to the masses and while I think the right decisions were made, it is not going to beat the X-prize winner or some other cars on the road. I probably would have used different criteria than what was used in this assessment, but I disagree with GM’s points that weight shouldn’t matter or that a more efficient Leaf should be penalized for range limitations in a “greenest car” ranking. Quite often the cars that win rankings based on such limited criteria are not a car for the masses.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:36 pm)Believe it or not, I actually TRY to buy foods grown locally. Meats, Fish, veggies. Those are the easy ones. Fruits are the ones that get’s imported the most.
I’m a Meat & Maine Lobster kind of guy……lol
/beer on the other……..whateva’s on sale!!
Feb 22nd, 2011 (6:51 pm)#64
We already saw it today. Somebody posted a photo on one of the forum threads today of a gas station sign in Santa Barbara showing regular at over $4. Get ready!
+2
Feb 22nd, 2011 (7:28 pm)I respectfully disagree.
Today we have mass-produced vehicles that run on one of these primary fuels: CNG, gasoline, or electricity. The Volt is unique because it combines the last two in a very clever way. Gasoline still has a monopoly, hence the crazy-high prices we pay. A transportation fuel needs three things to replace gasoline:
1) Reasonably priced vehicles that can go 200+ miles per charge/fill.
2) A safe universal way to receive a charge/fill in 15 minutes or less.
3) A safe universal way to deliver a charge/fill in 15 minutes or less.
All three exist today for CNG and propane. Unfortunately none of these three exist today for electricity. By that I mean:
1) A 200 mile electric car battery is still very expensive.
2) Today’s Volt/Leaf charge ports cannot accept a 15 minute recharge rate.
3) The electrical grid cannot deliver a 15 minute recharge rate without expensive mods.
Solving these three problems will be hard and take a long time. It would be much easier and faster to deploy a CNG infrastructure. That infrastructure already exists today for buildings, so we just need to adapt it to cars. We already know how to do it. Other countries already have. It’s simple. And like electricity, CNG has 3 big advantages over gasoline: It is lots cheaper, doesn’t go bad, and is available domestically. We just need enough CNG cars to make it profitable.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (7:53 pm)I do too. Although I’ve heard it’s a lot easier in California…But that doesn’t mean that your food bill won’t go up. Local farmers, even organic farmers, do share a lot of inputs with industrial farms. If the price of farm land, fertilizer, equipment, water, etc. goes up (because of increased demand), then many farmer’s costs will go up. And, given that all food prices will be higher, it will be pretty easy for them to pass their costs onto the consumer. And then some…
By the way, Maine lobster?
Feb 22nd, 2011 (8:30 pm)The Saudis have announced they’re increasing production to compensate. This could get interesting…
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/business/global/23oil.html?hp
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (8:30 pm)Laura, I’ve been saying that for about three days now. What seems to work consistently is to start your post with a “reply,” a “quote,” or a URL link, then type your comment. Do not start a post by just typing your comment. (Look at the comments above to confirm this.) Jackson’s html trick works most of the time, but not for everybody.
I have the distinct impression that Helena and Colum are not reading our comments here. I even sent a PM to Helena (admin on the forum). I received no reply.
BTW the “contact” link at the very bottom of this page still goes to Lyle’s email address.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (8:34 pm)jeremy Huber,
I don’t care for the childish attitude you convey in most of your comment, but as a matter of fact I think that GM will eventually be forced to up EREV electric ranges, for the following reasons:
1) It won’t cost that much more to do, as battery tech improves.
2) Because of ill-considered perceptions on the part of potential buyers (you know, like yours)
3) Pure EV competitors will use improving battery tech to increase their vehicles’ ranges well beyond 200 miles per charge.
At this point, the philosophies of the two approaches will reach a stark divergence; because it will become extremely difficult to charge a 200+ mile BEV overnight in a home garage. There had better be a “level 3″ public recharging infrastructure in place before EV ranges top 300, or there are going to be a lot of disillusioned EV owners (who bought the longer-range cars, again, because of ill-conceived perceptions of the cars’ value).
With EREV-type vehicles capable of 100 miles electric, and pure EVs with 200 – 300 mile ranges, the main issue will become: how do you handle long-distance travel? (100 miles is about the max you can expect to charge overnight in your garage, which is one reason why that number has such popularity for current EVs). To travel long-distance, a 300 mile EV will need to recharge along the way; and probably not all that quickly. To travel in the EREV, all you have to do is fill up. It will be a long, long time before this situation changes.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (9:10 pm)Interesting how Mustang and Honda owners are gravitating to the Volt. In a recent Volt ownership survey I was asked about other vehicles I own. Wonder if this collected information can be displayed here in a future post?
Time for an EV?
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (9:51 pm)Are you kidding me? Gas prices are ridiculously low. Even at $4/gal we are paying much less than the rest of the world. I don’t want to get into another subsidy debate, but gas prices are not “crazy-high”.
-4
Feb 22nd, 2011 (9:57 pm)Jackson,
Yea, well if EV’s with more than 100 mile range cant charge overnight then why does Tesla spec their 200 mile pack to charge in 8 hours? I was going to buy a Volt but I will not let myself assume that gas is going to stay cheap and a Volt is all I will ever need or want. I would rather forfeit long trips/vacations and sacrifice a little with the Leaf even though it looks like crap and just not buy any more gas and not have any anxiety related to future steep gas prices. It wont take years for change as you speculate. Just one year with 5 buck a gallon gas and you will see sudden change, as every auto manufacturer will go broke with the crap they sell now unless they spit out something quickly that people will and can afford to drive like a BEV. Ford and GM both claimed they have BEV backup plans and will not get caught with their pants downs again like in 08. My previous comment was made to make people thing about the long term and not whats hot at the moment like the iphone or the Volt.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:03 pm)Unfortunately that’s the harsh reality we live in and our society will have to adjust. We can’t keep writing checks to China to borrow money to buy artificially cheap oil from the unpredictable Middle East forever. It would be better for gas prices to go up now, so that we can be pro-active instead of something going completely awry in the Middle East and we have to react to the situation.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:10 pm)I just posted this in the discussion we have been having about ACEEE in plugincars.com.
Here are the changes to the old methodology ACEEE is using : http://www.greenercars.org/Meth%20Memo%20FINAL.pdf
Interesting notes :
– Vehicle lifecycle emissions is based on GREET 2.7. Unfortunately that doesn’t include either PHEV, nor BEV. So, ACEEE assumed PHEV is like HEV and BEV is like a Fuel Cell vehilce !!!!!
– They assume all batteries are NiMH. They don’t even have any figures for Li Ion batteries.
– They used a “utility” factor to figure out EV/CS modes of PHEVs. Unfortuntely they don’t tell us what UF they actaully used in calculation. So, we don’t know how representative the figure is.
Now I need to read the original 2004 document that gives the methodology in full to figure out what they are doing about the upstream emission of NG/Oil. Atleast they don’t talk about any changes in that methodology or “costs” associated with it.
-8
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:12 pm)what dumb people
+4
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:36 pm)Of course, those governments are getting revenue from those higher gas prices. Instead, we’re just sending more money to OPEC…
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:41 pm)Well, they clearly aren’t very professional. But they do need us if they plan to make any money off the site, so they should respond for something basic like this. Hopefully. Eventually.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:50 pm)Do they? Just for the sake of argument, let’s assume you’re right. I said that it would be extremely difficult to recharge a 200 mile pack overnight, but obviously not impossible. Certainly not for someone who can afford a Tesla. I seem to recall a video of Lyle driving a Tesla — he happened to know a well-heeled friend with a 480 volt service when range anxiety struck. How common is that kind of capacity in a home? Even if you have such a service, what do you do 200+ miles away from home? You might not know another rich dude with a fancy receptacle near the side of the road you’re stranded on.
As for the rest of your comment, you’ll find that we don’t have much sympathy for troll screed here.
.
+1
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:52 pm)Yes, esp in the UK where tax is 175%. That must help pay for some of their troops in the Middle East.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (10:54 pm)That’s perfectly all right. Speculating on the future is one of my favorite things to do here; but there are certainly countless ways things could unfold …
… and thanks for the respect.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:00 pm)oooOOOOoooo!
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:04 pm)This is a test; been awhile since I saw green text, maybe they fixed it:
Well, we’re over 100 comments, and we’ve even attracted a couple of trolls. Could we be on the road to recovery, here at gm-volt?
Stay Tuned!!!
If this shows up green in a minute, we’re still stuck with <a></a> at the beginning of our comments …
/waiting for edit timer to expire …
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:17 pm)Oh well … Maybe tomorrow.
.
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:44 pm)Or start with a reply or a quote or a link.
-3
Feb 22nd, 2011 (11:48 pm)Superiority claims without any real-world data to actually support them are a waste of time, especially when price is totally disregarded.
18 months of collecting my own shows how important real-world data is and how misleading generalizations can be…
What about the electricity consumed?
What about the emissions from that electricity source and the emissions from the gas engine?
.
-4
Feb 23rd, 2011 (12:10 am)Gotta love denial like that.
I look forward to providing other opportunities for spinning…
How about this gem…
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Feb 23rd, 2011 (1:09 am)bookdabook,
The simple answer is ‘yes’ we need a 550 hp American roadster. Hell yes.
Feb 23rd, 2011 (2:28 am)As fuel rises in price, the EV driver will be motivated to add additional charging locations to optimize range.
+1
Feb 23rd, 2011 (6:02 am)The Volt may be ranked 13th but there is a really bright spot for GM in this list. In the category of manual transmission compact cars the Chevy Cruze ECO is #1.
http://www.greenercars.org/highlights_byclass_cc.htm
+3
Feb 23rd, 2011 (8:56 am)I think, for a 1-number-stat, the best one to use would be Gallons per year. Yes, splitting the EV mode and CS mode makes sense to most of us here, but I think it confuses others. If the public could just compare cars based on a a typical GPY stat, that would probably help the most.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2011 (9:12 am)kdawg, I think it is all relative. By our standards here in the USA, gas prices are high now.
Comparatively speaking, they are very low to Europe and I think Canada too.
They are extremely high compared to Saudi Arabia.
I don’t like high gas prices, but I do think they are necessary to get us away from oil.
Feb 23rd, 2011 (9:12 am)Our new owners fixed the Quote problem. Thank you.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2011 (9:25 am)For example, this based on the first 12 months of data in the graphs above:
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Feb 23rd, 2011 (9:37 am)Sorry Rashiid, but quote is not working for me. I still get an error about a possible problem with the WordPress theme, whatever that is…..
I am using Firefox 3.6.13.
Are you the new “Go To Guy” for problems with this site???
And I really hate the green, or having to insert characters at the beginning of a post! Please get that fixed too!!!!
Feb 23rd, 2011 (9:40 am)Jackson @ 107 Said: “oooOOOOoooo!”
==============================
Is that an I really like that blue oooOOOOoooo,
Or I really hate the blue oooOOOOoooo????
-1
Feb 23rd, 2011 (10:11 am)I am sorry, but John’s little chart at post # 119 is EXACTLY why we have to get off of gallons per year and go to cost of fuel per year.
The only item in his chart that is anywhere near accurate is the traditional vehicle, and I even question his rating of 30 mpg, as I think it is too high. Is that the average for the industry at this point in time? I kind of doubt it. I have no link or data to support that. Maybe John does.
The mileage for the FULL Hybrid is maybe what he is getting, but around here, the people that own a Prius that I know are getting mid-40′s, so those numbers are off as well.
The FULL hybrid with plug has no EV miles listed, but uses that charge to decrease the amount of gasoline used, which is having it both ways. Hardly accurate.
And as far as the rest of the chart, it does not take into account the cost of the electricity to charge up the battery pack, so it is a useless comparison.
I also question the numbers used for the EV and and Engine breakdowns for the EREV hybrid. Where did those numbers come from? You are using a number that is less than 30 miles per charge, and I don’t think that is being shown to be correct by the current users as an accurate average.
If we go to a cost of fuel per year, you get a much better comparison, as it takes into account all forms of fuel used to move the vehicle.
And as in all things, different drivers will get wildly different numbers, based on their driving styles, environmental ranges, the types of terrain, and if the car is being driven mainly in city or highway traffic.
JMHO
Feb 23rd, 2011 (10:11 am)New post is up.
+2
Feb 23rd, 2011 (10:38 am)Jim I,
Cost per year? How? That’s a constantly changing value. Heck, it varies tremendously by region too.
Consumption rate is a repeatable measure. Averages will emerge as the sample size grows. It represents the efficiency of the technology, not a reflection on current fuel costs.
Of course, if cost was a factor, vehicle price cannot be left out.
.
+1
Feb 23rd, 2011 (10:50 am)I agree on the Your Mileage May Vary, so I think we will need to take an average of ALL DRIVERS once there is more real-world usage on all of these vehicles. I think this would be better than what the EPA comes up with.
I dont like the cost per year, because everyone’s prices are different. What we could do is show the KWH/year and this way people could calculate their own costs based on Gal/Year, and KWH/Year of the car.
PS: I think the national average for MPG for an ICE car is less than 25mpg.
Feb 23rd, 2011 (11:22 am)#117
No to worry, the good Colonel is taking care of this as we speak. Did you see his speech yesterday? Scary!
+1
Feb 23rd, 2011 (12:39 pm)So why do you so consistently waste your time here?
.
Feb 23rd, 2011 (12:42 pm)Really like. Really hate would have been “Ewwwww.”
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Feb 23rd, 2011 (12:57 pm)john1701a,
OMG you are such a troll!
Even with real world results that blow everything else out of the water, you persist with this rediculous weak rant.
Plz go back over to your little “circle-jerk” at Priuschat.
AND STAY THERE!
We’re not buyin’ what you’re a sellin’
WopOnTour
Feb 23rd, 2011 (1:33 pm)The cherry-picking and not taking the “too little, too slowly” concern seriously is becoming obvious.
Volt is about to face challenges it could have been much better prepared for.
Instead, we get the downplaying of real-world data and personal comment, rather than trying to actually share detail and address need.
.
Feb 23rd, 2011 (1:59 pm)John:
You complain that there are differences in prices. Exactly. So use an average, just like you were doing in your chart.
The average price for residential electricity is about $0.12 / kWh as of Nov, 2010. So let’s use that.
Source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/epm_sum.html
And the average price for gasoline is $3.132 / gallon as of 02-07-2011, So let’s use that.
Source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html
I don’t know how you now figure that the vehicle price should now come into play, as you were doing an a comparison of what it takes to propel the vehicle per year, not a cost analysis of the total cost of ownership. And I pointed out that your comparison was flawed. I think that using average prices is exactly the way this should be calculated. If you want to get an exact cost for your specific locale, then just plug in numbers that are available for your area. That seems pretty simple to me.
You can’t change the complete analysis of your argument on a whim, just because your original logic was incorrect. That is silly. I would never tell you what to do, but IMHO, you need to admit when you are wrong sometimes. It would improve your standing here a bit…….
Feb 23rd, 2011 (6:11 pm)Many here focus on just their favorite aspect the technology delivers, rather than acknowledging all the required criteria.
Here’s the When, Quantity, Price, Capacity, Engine-Efficiency, and Emission goals for the PHV:
2012 mid-year
20,000 produced
$30,000 or so
3.6 kWh of EV capacity
50 MPG after depletion
PZEV emission rating
What are they for Volt now?
.
+1
Feb 23rd, 2011 (6:40 pm)In Europe, the fuel taxes can cost more than the fuel, hence their price difference. That doesn’t negate my monopoly point, nor does it negate my observation that gas prices are set not so much by supply/demand. Governments control supply and speculators (not actual buyers) control the price. Actual supply & demand are about the same as 2 years ago, yet USA gas prices have almost doubled since then.
Feb 23rd, 2011 (8:23 pm)Yes, I mentioned taxes above. Goverments do control prices too, through taxes and subsidies to the industry. Look at the Volt. Its price is essentially $7500 less due to a Gov. tax break. However, I wasn’t commenting on monopolies or supply/demand. I basically disagreeing w/your comment that gas prices are “crazy high”. If we actually paid the real cost of gas it would be closer to $10/gal.
Feb 23rd, 2011 (8:48 pm)http://www.grist.org/article/2011-02-07-what-obama-should-know-about-ending-oil-subsidies
+1
Feb 26th, 2011 (2:32 pm)The future ranking of CNG might take into account that the new process of gas extraction from shale with extremely toxic chemicals might have traces of those chemicals contained within the CNG itself. If we are going to consider also the risk to the ground water at possibly high application pressures of those extremely toxic chemicals, then we also ought to consider that people driving with shale-derived CNG are driving ahead of many others on the road.
This is another consideration for the EPA, that this article hadn’t taken into consideration.
(/… new computer and broadband stick is a lot of fun.)
+1
Feb 26th, 2011 (3:50 pm)Several more things about shale gas from toxic catalysts.
Are you going to cook with that stuff in your kitchen?
Sometimes just using gas to simmer a stew for a long time can make one sick from the sulphur dioxide sometimes present in it, or the carbon dioxide sometimes in it (yellow flame), which can yield carbon monoxide.
And, I don’t see how you can call it “Natural” gas, since it was never naturally-occurring in the first place. It ought to be named “Combustible gas from shale extracted by toxic catalysts”.
It really needs to be completely studied regarding by-products of combustion in all possible usages and exposures to people, by responsible parties. This is a formal request.