Feb 08

Nissan Admits Won’t Achieve Goal of Selling 20,000 Leafs in 2011

 


Nissan first revealed its 100-mile range Leaf pure electric car in August 2009, well into the four year Volt public birthing process.

The Japanese company took a different tactic than GM announcing pricing earlier (and lower) and opening up online reservations for the car for a $99 down payment.

At that time, GM was frequently criticized for being slow to announce price and for not having an online reservation process.

However, since the cars have started rolling out, GM is already well in the lead in numbers of deliveries.

Nissan capped it total reservations at 20,000, declaring that as the sales goal of Leafs in the US in 2011. At that early stage GM had only committed to building 10,000 Volts in the same timeframe, so it appeared that Nissan might take the sales lead.

Demand for the award-winning extremely flexible extended range electric Volt has been skyrocketing though, and GM has now upped its commitment to building 25,000 Volts in 2011.

Nissan at the same time is now starting to backpedal.

For every one Leaf so far delivered in the US, GM has delivered 6 Volts. Nissan says it will shortly ramp up sales making sure everyone who wants one will be able to have it by the end of the summer. “We’re going to make sure that customers get their cars well before the end of summer,” said Brian Carolin, Nissa VP of sales and marketing. “I’m confident during April, May you’re going to see (a) significant number of deliveries.”

Carolin said buyers should expect “a few hundred” deliveries in March.

He did admit however, for the first time, that it is unlikely Nissan will achieve its goal of 20,000 deliveries in 2011.

“Not every one of those reservations is going to turn into a firm order,” he said. “I think 20,000 will be too high.”

Source (Detroit News)


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This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 8th, 2011 at 7:12 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 165


  1. 1
    jdsv

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:23 am)

    Wow, does Carolin sound like a sales VP or what? Though this isn’t front-page-of-the-Times news, he’s now given a buyer base another promise that they’ll deliver. If anywhere near 20,000 Leafs were reserved, Nissan is pinning their hopes of staying honest on, what? Nearly non-existent dealership sales and/or a very large number of customers backing out of a paid reservation.

    I hope this doesn’t turn out to be a black eye (or worse, a turn-off to real customers) for electric vehicles.

    In happier news, can anyone else believe the 6-to-1 delivery ratio? Strictly as a Volt fan, that’s great news! Maybe some St. Louis/Midwest/Heartland deliveries will eke their way into 2011!

    NPNS!! =D~~


  2. 2
    Jim I

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:30 am)

    But there is no real reason why there will not be 20K cars built.

    Is there a supply problem, a manufacturing problem, a reliability problem, a range issue, or is it just that the car is so ugly that people change their minds and refuse to buy it once they see it in person?

    We really need more info on this before we can make an informed decision….

    JMHO


  3. 3
    Dave K.

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:44 am)

    I felt all along that the macho number announcements from Nissan were a strategic play for 2011 Car Of The Year honors. About 1 in 5 EV conversations I have with perspective buyers mention a possible Leaf sale. Just had one tonight BTW. Although she is under the impression the Leaf achieves more than 100 miles range. She said she would need a gas car as well for longer trips.
    The Volt continues to exceed expectations. A pleasure to drive each time out.

    NPNS


  4. 4
    Rashiid Amul

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:47 am)

    This is too bad. I would really like to see the succeed.
    I get the impression customer demand is not there.


  5. 5
    Charlie H

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:49 am)

    And how many are they selling in Japan?


  6. 6
    joe

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:03 am)

    Nissan is like the old GM. Brag, Brag, but no substance. They are not going to sell zillions of them like they proclaimed. When people go shopping for a family car they want a car that can take them on long trips……especially if they spend the amount it would costs for a Leaf.


  7. 7
    tom w

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:14 am)

    Perhaps Nissan is dragging their feet while waiting for a new and better battery, perhaps even with better thermal managment so the car will work above the mason dixie line.


  8. 8
    John W (Tampa)

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:15 am)

    GM is so dead on with the Volt, from the range extender to the name. This is America, and let’s face it, a large percentage of the fervent domestic car buyers aren’t environmentalists. So GM naming the car the Volt instead of the Leaf or the Tree or the Earth is just another reason why this car will go mainstream baby. I care about the Earth, but I love how GM is really staying away from this car having any kind of hippie vibe. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.


  9. 9
    Rashiid Amul

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:17 am)

    This Volt is the answer for today.
    Nothing changes. I can plug it in or not.
    I can drive from east coast to west coast without worrying about “filling” it up.
    The Volt is unlimited.
    Pure EVs are very limited.
    The Volt provides freedom, the Leaf is tied to a tether.
    Someday that will change…..but not today.
    The Leaf is for a niche market. The Volt is for a very large market.


  10. 10
    BDP

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:35 am)

    Why buy a leaf when a volt is available? Battery tech is great, but has a long, long way to go in displacing any ICE.


  11. 11
    Loser

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:37 am)

    (click to show comment)


  12. 12
    Tagamet

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:49 am)

    I’d love to see both vehicles sold in*very* large numbers. Anyone who realizes that they can drive the LEAF about 2 hours a day – then it goes on the charger for the rest of the day, is going to stumble upon a “teachable moment”. With multiple “top off” charges, you can still find yourself in a situation where there simply are not enough hours left to charge it before you have to leave for work.
    On a regular wall outlet, the Volt does it all. “Nuff said.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  13. 13
    lousloot

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:51 am)

    LEAF? no. Save some money, buy a city car.

    The functionality of those low speed electrics is equiv. to the LEAF, and a lot cheaper.

    http://electriccitycar.com/cars.htm


  14. 14
    Larry McFall

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:00 am)

    This is a big smoke job or, a report from some source that does not know how to report. Nissan has NO idea how many they will sell in 2011. It is early February 2011.

    I can understand if Nissan stated that the were going to build less Leafs than they had first predicted such as, we will build less than 20,000 in 2011.

    If Nissan cannot sell more than 20,000 per year, they must not be making much of an effort. The same with Volt. GM has to work at it! GO! Volt.


  15. 15
    volt11

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:06 am)

    It’s hard for me to believe that real Leaf demand (the actual take rate) will much exceed 20,000 vehicles over the next 5 years! If I were in that “pure EV” market, I’d be waiting for the Focus instead.


  16. 16
    muv66

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:09 am)

    I’ve felt all along that Nissan pushed this car out without the careful consideration and research of GM’s Volt. Now they’re going to have to suffer the consequences of introducing a vehicle that battery technology has to catch up to. I give them credit for having the guts to introduce this car, but as I’ve said before, GM did it right this time.


  17. 17
    nasaman

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:22 am)

    Having test driven two Volts under very different conditions, in the interest of trying to be impartial, this past weekend I drove a Leaf —and was not especially impressed. But I was VERY IMPRESSED with Nissan’s HUGE traveling staff, their array of giant video screens in ~5 big portable buildings, the 14 new Leafs at the event & the FIVE 18 wheelers needed to move it all to the next venue. The Leaf test drive itself? ….not so much. I’ll put it this way: If the Leaf’s battery had a range of 375 miles (to ~equal Volt’s full charge/full tank range) at the Volt’s price, *I’d buy the Volt instead*! Who would really want to fully discharge a 375 mi battery only to need about FOUR times longer to recharge it than the 100 mi battery? How about others here —would you take the 375 mi Leaf over a Volt for the same money?

    If GM decides to eventually offer a similar-priced BEV version of the Volt, it might appease the EV purists. But I doubt it would match the Volt’s sales. And I would certainly not buy one! The Leaf simply is NOT in the same league as the Volt. (And it’s just as ugly in person as in photos). LOL

    .


  18. 18
    James

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:25 am)

    If a football field were 73 yards long, the LEAF would draw first blood in the Super Bowl of the transformation of the modern car. I know Nissan claims 100 miles range, but every modern EV falls a bit short on pure EV range due to the many variables that come into play driving in the real world. Even if a BEV could score with a 100 yard run, it’s always been obvious to us here – but new news to the rest of the world, that the Chevy Volt just built the winning strategy with EXTENDED RANGE. Thus the Volt wins the game!

    The Volt can be our everyday car not just during the weekly commute – This will dawn on our community as a whole – and it’s why the Volt will be a big seller – especially when a 5 – 6 seat family mover bows in, and battery tech gets lighter and less expensive. 200 – 300 mile BEVs at ICE prices will be needed to displace the status quo, this makes the Volt THE bridge to that end – sometime down the road.

    VOLT HAS NO COMPETITION – It’s a route. Plug in Prius will vie for the sales championship next season with it’s argument of less price, shorter trips and less time to recharge the smaller pack. In my view, Volt wins that contest as well.

    WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS, WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS, NO TIME FOR LOSING – WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS ‘TIL THE END

    James


  19. 19
    Sasparilla

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:31 am)

    This is what I can gather from the Leaf blog and boards, part of this message is pure PR slight of hand (to put it nicely) by Nissan. The only customers who will be getting their Leaf by the summer of 2011 are those from the first 9 states its been rolled out to – everyone else with reservations will not have gotten to order (not reserve) their vehicle by that time.

    Originally Nissan was going to have all the original 7 states customers ordering (not just reserving) their vehicles in September with the next 2 states ordering in October (if memory serves). They just started taking a small amount of orders on the last day in September and are still just allowing the people who have reserved in those original 7 + 2 states to trickle orders in at a very slow rate.

    The next batch of states (basically the “old south”) was supposed to be ordering in December (if memory serves), but Nissan told them a month or two ago that they would not be able to order their vehicles until the Summer of 2011 (obviously these people reserved and wanted a Leaf but won’t be getting one by the Summer of 2011 Brian Carolin of Nissan, eh?) and then there is the other 36 states which originally were scheduled for ordering in the Fall 2011 and Winter – no words on whether they have been pushed back or not.

    Nissan hasn’t handled their issues very well…


  20. 20
    Dave G

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:45 am)

    It’s impossible to figure out which type of car will win based on current sales figures. Things are just beginning to ramp up.

    Right now, the only thing we can use to predict future plug-in sales are intelligent guesses based on mass market demands and price trends.

    I predict the Leaf will sell pretty well initially, and then sales will probably decline. Early adopters are willing change their lifestyle, but the mass market seems to want a no-compromise solution.

    The Volt will sell well initially, and then sales will probably level off until the price drops. Once the price gets “nicely under $30,000″, sales will start increasing exponentially. Within 7-10 years, I think costs will drop to the point where the additional price for an EREV model will be fairly minimal. Within 10-15 years, most new car sales will be EREVs.

    And by the way, when I say EREV, I’m not limiting the discussion to series hybrids. Any vehicle that uses electricity for the vast majority of typical driving would qualify. In particular, “near-series” (i.e. parallel designs with larger motors and batteries) have been shown in a number of concept cars. One example is the Mercedes BlueZERO E-Cell Plus.

    The Plug-In Prius will also sell well initially, until people realize that they’re still using mostly gasoline, and then sales will decline until Toyota comes out with a near-series model.


  21. 21
    CorvetteGuy

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:58 am)

    John W (Tampa): I care about the Earth, but I love how GM is really staying away from this car having any kind of hippie vibe. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    Dude… Get out of my van. (Just kidding.) ;)


  22. 22
    RB

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:58 am)

    Rashiid Amul: This is too bad.I would really like to see the succeed.
    I get the impression customer demand is not there.    

    On the other hand, Nissan cancelled order-taking from the US east coast states for 2010 and possibly 2011, apparently because they saw they could not make enough to fill those orders. That might have been because of a large number of orders in the west, or because of some manufacturing limitation. So for Leaf, as for Volt, right now demand exceeds supply, and the issues are with production.


  23. 23
    Dave G

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:59 am)

    James: I know Nissan claims 100 miles range, but every modern EV falls a bit short on pure EV range due to the many variables that come into play driving in the real world.

    Exactly!

    For example, let’s say you buy the Leaf as a commuter car. Your job is 20 miles from your house, so it seems like you have plenty of cushion. But then one day on the way home from work you get caught in a snow storm, and end up stuck in traffic for 2-3 hours. It’s really cold outside and your wheels slip a lot in the snow, so your range goes down below 50 miles. You might be able to barely make it home, assuming you don’t use the heater…

    Now if you’re fairly wealthy, you could afford to have another spare car to use in the winter when there’s snow in the forecast. But most people can’t afford that, and even if they could, that solution still uses a significant amount of gasoline, probably more than the Volt.


  24. 24
    N Riley

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:04 am)

    I believe Nissan knew that all 20,000 signees would not convert to buyers. Anyone with half of a brain should know that. Problem is determining the number that would. Would it be on 10,000? Who knows. Nissan knew they had a smaller number of cars to build for the U.S. They just did not know how many it would take.

    I am one of the 20,000 and at this time I don’t plan on asking for a refund. Might later on, but not right now. I am taking a wait and see attitude with the Leaf. Same with the Volt. Which ever gets delivered in my area first will most likely find a place in my carport. Maybe both. Who knows.


  25. 25
    scottf200

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:05 am)

    Tagamet: I’d love to see both vehicles sold in*very* large numbers. Anyone who realizes that they can drive the LEAF about 2 hours a day – then it goes on the charger for the rest of the day, is going to stumble upon a “teachable moment”. With multiple “top off” charges, you can still find yourself in a situation where there simply are not enough hours left to charge it before you have to leave for work.
    On a regular wall outlet, the Volt does it all. “Nuff said.Be well,
    Tagamet    

    I have nothing against the Leaf and want it to be successful in it niche. I love the saying a ‘rising tide will raise all boats’ because we need the momentum.

    The Volt is fairly expensive and I’m fairly frugal but it is a game changer from a perceived ‘underdog’ and I found a way. It’s “high end” features and EREV is what made me want it. Filled up with petro yesterday for $75.00 and the pump stopped because of the credit card limit. Looking forward to filling up for $00.75 a night at the end of Feb (hourly rate plan in IL).


  26. 26
    flmark

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:07 am)

    I seem to remember a few (troll?) whiners here, back before GM promised to ramp up production, who said they were going to go with the Leaf because GM wasn’t fulfilling their needs. Looks like the shoe is on the other foot now.

    The way I see it, this delay is definitely good for GM (and maybe even ultimately Ford). We should all be happy that the Leaf exists, even sparingly. Joe Average lacks courage enough to go out on a limb with something new. If GM were the ONLY player on the scene, many would not even consider an EV, just because of the ‘weirdness’ factor. But once MULTIPLE manufacturers have something, Joe Average sees it as a trend and starts to pay attention. Now he sees that Nissan gets his appetite up only to disappoint. He is now even more likely to buy GM or wait for Ford.

    Hey GM, Nissan’s failure signals your need to deliver even more Volts!


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    Texas

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:12 am)

    We just don’t know the reason but it doesn’t look like a lack of demand. They are probably losing money on each unit or want to bring them out slowly to make sure the introduction is done right.

    It is still too early to decide and I also hope they make it. The world needs the electrification of transportation to succeed, more so than most realize.


  28. 28
    James

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:23 am)

    LEAF and Focus BEVs can carve out a commuter car niche in the market there is no doubt. Those cars can overcome the iMiev ( oddity car ) image EVs have struggled against to date. I hope they indeed sell more than even the most optimistic predictions.

    It takes one drive of a Volt and LEAF to understand the drastic differences. When I test drove the LEAF it seemed the entire well laid out electronic driver interface had PARANOIA stamped all over it. The central nav screen is dominated with circles pointing out your limited area of travel. Great pains were made to point out to the driver – YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR MIND ON YOUR RANGE – The car starts punishing you for not thinking about range, as it starts shutting things down to preserve a few more yards it can roll before it needs more juice. Instead of the Volt’s conveniently placed efficiency ball, which sends a message: ” Hey here’s a tool you may choose to use, or not “, the Leaf’s entire message to the driver is one of available reachable charging stations and their status. When you’re mind is full of the things you have to do that day – you surely will tire of the growing trees and watching circles game one has to play each and every time one considers using a LEAF to make their daily rounds. Americans are spoiled in many ways – we have the right to choose, and choice is baked into our collective psyche. Volt gives us the right to choose how and where we’ll roll.

    I’m an EV fan so I would consider a LEAF and realize it’s job would be for local runs, and that other vehicles would be needed for longer range. To reach high sales numbers a BEV needs to achieve a minimum of twice the 100 mile norm of today and stop haranging it’s owner with how far they are limited to wander.

    THEY’RE PUMPING OUT THE VOLTS! ,

    James


  29. 29
    N Riley

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:24 am)

    The electric Ford Focus will have a huge impact on Nissan early adopters who have signed up but will be delayed shipment until sometime in 2012. The Focus will be out and if Ford can produce it in quantities, you will see a lot of potential Leaf buyers switching to the Focus. IMO.


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    Gary

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:31 am)

    In the Detroit News it was reported that Brian Carolin (Nissan’s senior vice president for sales and marketing for North America) said about four in every 10 of those plunking down deposits have been buying them when it comes time to commit.

    That’s a far cry from the news stories about bragging about having to shut down the reservation process because of high demand. 4 out of 10 isn’t high demand. Quick math: that’s only 8,000.

    http://detnews.com/article/20110208/AUTO01/102080330/1148/auto01/Nissan-to-boost-Leaf-production-to-fill-preorders


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    Robj80

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:34 am)

    http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/business/news/20110208p2g00m0bu020000c.html

    This says nissan has delivered almost 1000 leafs in it’s home land. I do know there were over a 100 in the US and the UK might have gotten some too but I’m not sure. Seems nissan is going where the money is.

    If I made more money per car and only had to deliver it down the street instead of “across the pond” I would do that too.

    Can’t wait for Volt and LEAF in full production and I see them zipping down the streets! I live in CT and haven’t seen a Volt yet :( . Won’t see a LEAF for awhile I bet.


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    evnow

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:53 am)

    Lyle, you are reading too much into this comment. Obviously not all 20K reservations will turn into orders. That shouldn’t be surprising.

    BTW, Nissan has delivered more than 1,000 Leafs so far, 981 of them in Japan. They are pumping as many Leafs as possible in Japan before the rebate runs out for the year in March. Also, just yesterday Nissan dealers were informed that they would be getting hundreds of Leafs in April.

    http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/business/news/20110208p2g00m0bu020000c.html

    “We’ll be capable of producing 10,000 units by the end of March according to our production plan,” a spokesperson said.

    A sharp rise in overseas sales is unlikely as Nissan is expected to place priority on domestic deliveries to enable customers in Japan to benefit from government subsidies for the purchase of EVs earmarked in the state budget for fiscal 2010 ending March.

    Nissan plans to sell 6,000 Leaf units in Japan by the end of March and has already received enough orders to fulfill the target.

    Nissan had delivered only 981 units of the Leaf in Japan as of the end of January, after launching it in the country on Dec. 20. The company is accelerating production.


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    Randy C.

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:55 am)

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    john1701a

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:13 am)

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    DonC

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:17 am)

    I agree with evnow that we’re making too much out of these comments. He’s definitely right about a number of orders falling off the truck being a natural occurrence and nothing to be surprised about. I had it from a very reliable source that out of the first 2000 orders about 800 turned into firm orders. That’s not too bad a percentage and the number has probably increased. Personally I know several people who are interested in a Leaf but missed the first roll out. We’re still early in the game.

    On the other hand the fact that Nissan is having some problem ramping up production is a good thing for GM given that it is ramping up Volt production. For consumers it is becoming more the case that one or two products are considered “the best” and ends up with the largest mindshare and far and away the most market share. The Prius would be a good example of this. It outsells all other hybrids by such a large margin that it is considered synonymous with hybrids. The Volt is a more workable car for most people than the Leaf, so if it can establish an early lead GM has a decent chance of establishing a dominant mindshare. And it’s not hard to establish an early lead if you’re the only one with product to sell!

    In this regard, an early lead is more important for Nissan than GM. The Volt is a differentiated product whereas the Leaf will not be when the EV Fit and EV Ford Focus are being sold (plus whatever Toyota comes up with). If both companies can ramp up production in a reasonable way I can see the Volt outselling the Leaf 3:1 or 4:1 (just because the Volt will work in more geographic areas and for more people) and the Leaf outselling all the other pure BEVs 6:1. The Leaf may beat these projections vis-a-vis the Volt early on because it has a greater appeal for current Prius customers and there are a fairly large number of those.


  36. 36
    jeffhre

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:18 am)

    volt11: It’s hard for me to believe that real Leaf demand (the actual take rate) will much exceed 20,000 vehicles over the next 5 years! If I were in that “pure EV” market, I’d be waiting for the Focus instead.    

    Seem to have over promised by quite a stretch. And they are still working on the car. for example, the rumored Cold Weather Kit and the evolving pedestrian sound solution, 6FEB2011 Nissan Installs Device to Solve “Quiet” Problem.

    jdsv, “I hope this doesn’t turn out to be a black eye (or worse, a turn-off to real customers) for electric vehicles.
    In happier news, can anyone else believe the 6-to-1 delivery ratio? Strictly as a Volt fan, that’s great news! Maybe some St. Louis/Midwest/Heartland deliveries will eke their way into 2011!”

    Many loudly claimed if GM wa serious about EREV, the Volt, electrification of autos, moving beyond the EV 1 stage etc. that vastly more Volts should be pumped out immediately or else. Others felt that for a company planning over a dozen new models while skipping past the graveyard during bankruptcy GM was doing OK even to risk developing the Volt. GM seems in a good position now to ramp up Volt production, and Nissan already appears to have a bit of a black eye. Though in all fairness they are trying to dribble them out world wide while the Volt takes the US by storm. And doing well during major storms.

    To be fair though adding up deliveries world wide, Nissan is not that far behind GM’s Volt deliveries. Even though individual market totals are well below what Nissan promised.

    GM not only learned a lot from Camaro deliveries, but they have applied those lessons to the Volt.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:19 am)

    So what else is new…..I never had a doubt Nissan was way overpromising their eventual actual sales. If anybody has noticed, I’ve been sharply critical of Nissan from the beginning on this site and over at Statik’s old site, periodically reminding Nissan fanboys that a $99 reservation does not equal an actual sale in spite of the many stories and blogs in both the green and mainstream media that indicated otherwise, having bought into Nissan’s smoke and mirrors game, hook line and sinker.

    Well, Toto finally pulled back the curtain and the truth is exposed.

    I’m going to repeat one more thing I’ve previously said – thanks to the Volt, EVs will finally be established as an enduring market segment that will endure and grow from now into the future. If there was no Volt, Nissan’s folly could have set things back for several years before somebody would have tried again.

    The Volt will make history, with the LEAF destined to be merely a footnote.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:22 am)

    john1701a: I saw 100% electric running errands in the suburbs and engine efficiency above 200 MPG on the highway while depleting with the PHV. Why wouldn’t that be competitive, especially in the future with a higher-capacity pack?

    The Volt is the Prius as the Prius is to the Insight. Technically the parallel setup used by the Prius is ill suited for a plug-in and will relegate the PIP to perennial also ran status. If you want a plug-in hybrid, the Volt is so superior to a PIP that unless you can’t afford the best it’s not much of a choice.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:23 am)

    I just had to buy a new car, and while I love the volt, it won’t hold my five person family, so it was a no-go (even if I could have managed to get one). The leaf was more appropriate (particularly since I work from home, so it would be short range errand car, rarely needing to go full range. But I couldn’t wait until whenever one would become available, so I got a small focus instead, and maybe I can upgrade to a Volt 2.0 or whatever is a five seater version in a few years.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:25 am)

    stuart22: I never had a doubt Nissan was way overpromising their eventual actual sales. If anybody has noticed, I’ve been sharply critical of Nissan from the beginning on this site and over at Statik’s old site, periodically reminding Nissan fanboys that a $99 reservation does not equal an actual sale in spite of the many stories and blogs in both the green and mainstream media that indicated otherwise, having bought into Nissan’s smoke and mirrors game, hook line and sinker.

    Yes, we noticed! LOL But this doesn’t make the Leaf any less of a great product, assuming you can use it, and there are a great number of people who can. (Admittedly a lot more can use the Volt).


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:26 am)

    Games not over yet fools, it just started. Products will leapfrog one another in sales. No reason to celebrate, just keep building!


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:31 am)

    GOOD That will save the US taxpayers $15 Million in tax revenue that wont go to the competition of domestic car companies.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:35 am)

    volt11: It’s hard for me to believe that real Leaf demand (the actual take rate) will much exceed 20,000 vehicles over the next 5 years!

    This is an insanely LOW number. Here is my take. In CA along about 15,000 households get a PV system. Everyone of those houses will buy at least one EV, maybe more. My guess that means GM and Nissan will split those with Nissan getting more sales than GM. Plus of course you have all the EXISTING households which have installed a PV system in the past but haven’t been able to buy an EV.

    Now you have to figure that there are 5x or 10x more households that DON’T have a PV system, because they cost a ton and are involved, who are interested in an EV. GM and Nissan will split these sales with GM getting more.

    But that’s a whole lot more sales than 4,000 per year. And that’s ONLY in California.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:36 am)

    The secret to getting off of middle eastern oil is to slowly change people’s driving habits and other uses of petroleum. We have been driving with gasoline for over 100 years and it is imbedded in our DNA by now. The Volt is an interim step (though one that may last for a couple of decades) towards a major change in consumers’ habits. My wife and I have averaged 135 MPG over the past 1200 miles with our Volt. We have solar power so our carbon footprint is very small. We’re not aging “hippies” but a quiet retired couple that tries not to make waves. Slowly change will happen. There may be types of cars on the road in a few years that we are not yet even talking about. China, Japan and Europe are moving full speed in the alternative energy movement. Change is in the air but it takes time. Nissan may stumble but ultimately they, too, will succeed with some sort of alternative-powered vehicle. It is all our best interests for these changes to work out.

    PS: the Volt is an incredible driving machine. Can’t describe how much fun it is just to drive.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:39 am)

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:47 am)

    Imho, nissan screwed up by not disclosing that their “initial delivery” numbers will be spread out to the global market and not concentrated to specific markets.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:47 am)

    Just to follow up on the point about there being a ton of opportunity for EVs out there, here is a map which shows the houses with PV systems in San Diego. It’s pretty interesting to see it: http://sd.solarmap.org/solar/index.php


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:51 am)

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:53 am)

    One last comment. When the Nissan representative says “everyone who wants a car will have one by the end of summer” he doesn’t literally mean everyone who wants one. He means those people who have ordered and who still want to take delivery. There are lots of people in states outside the roll out states who want one who won’t be able to order until Fall.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:55 am)

    gonnzo: Why do you people call the volt an ev when all of you volt owners have already burned petroleum in the volt? 

    I don’t know, maybe because an EV is defined by whether it is propelled by a traction motor and when last we looked the Volt is? Just guessing!


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (12:02 pm)

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (12:04 pm)

    Sonoma Richard: The secret to getting off of middle eastern oil is to slowly change people’s driving habits and other uses of petroleum. We have been driving with gasoline for over 100 years and it is imbedded in our DNA by now. The Volt is an interim step (though one that may last for a couple of decades) towards a major change in consumers’ habits. My wife and I have averaged 135 MPG over the past 1200 miles with our Volt.     

    Spreading the word from people like you is key to making this happen. Corporate-level marketing has limited effect when it comes to getting people to change long-held habits that have comfort and familiarity attached. As a result, corporations are reluctant to invest in things that are going to take time to become profitable.

    The best thing GM marketing can do is to help pass the word on from you and other Volt owners to the car-buying public – testimonial advertising. Word-of-mouth is the best way of speeding up the process of converting people over to cars like the Volt and LEAF.

    And BTW to anybody wondering – my criticisms have been directed at the Nissan corporation, and not the LEAF (aside from its homely styling).


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (12:05 pm)

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (12:23 pm)

    I’m visiting GM-Volt not Nissan-Leaf… who cares what the Leaf is doing…

    How much will the VOLT cost in Japan? .. again… are the Japanese Germans or Koreans giving incentives to buy the Volt?

    If it were up to me we would enforce fair trade… if they put a tariff on the Volt we should put the same tariff on the Leaf … etc.

    We have to start thinking Globally… the time of the Unfair one way trade in the US is over… we can’t afford to be borrowing on our childrens tab anymore.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (12:30 pm)

    DonC: Just to follow up on the point about there being a ton of opportunity for EVs out there, here is a map which shows the houses with PV systems in San Diego. It’s pretty interesting to see it:

    #47

    Amazing! +1


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (12:34 pm)

    pjkPA: I’m visiting GM-Volt not Nissan-Leaf… who cares what the Leaf is doing…How much will the VOLT cost in Japan? .. again… are the Japanese Germans or Koreans giving incentives to buy the Volt?If it were up to me we would enforce fair trade… if they put a tariff on the Volt we should put the same tariff on the Leaf … etc.We have to start thinking Globally… the time of the Unfair one way trade in the US is over… we can’t afford to be borrowing on our childrens tab anymore.    

    If the past is any reference it will cost double what it does in the US and dont wait for japan to give a tax rebate for buying one,they are more likely to find additional ways to make it more expensive. FOr the US to be giving US taxpayer money to but an 100% IMPORTED nissan leaf is charging americans for having their jobs sent to japan,its economic TREASON. If this rebate applied only to the volt(which it should be) it would make the two about the same price.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (12:39 pm)

    I wouldn’t wish any ill on anyone, but Nissan’s loss appears to be GM’s gain in this instance. Although, I can really see value in having someone put a credible EV up against the EREV, just to see what the car buying public really will do.

    Anyway, there are/were something like 50K people signed up on the GM-Volt.com “wait list”. Judging by the fact that my dealer still has available allocation slots, it seems pretty clear that 50K people haven’t stepped up to order Volts. So nobody’s perfect.

    OT, but I want to thank all of you who have posted helpful threads on the forum about the 240 volt chargers. The whole process is very confusing and my dealer knows less about it than I do! After several false starts, I am going with the Voltec, after a helpful forum poster showed me how to order it. Thanks a lot guys!


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:01 pm)

    I find it fascinating how this website has evolved from an electric car site to a “more car than electric” anti-EV site. In saying this, my intention is not to insult Statik; on the contrary, he does a great job reporting and should be commended for his objectivity. Regarding many of the adherents to this blog, however, it’s clear that many have not kept their eyes on the bigger prize. The initial excitement surrounding the Volt dealt with it being “more electric than car,” namely because we already had/have plenty of “car” options out there. Only a few years ago this website seemed to have followers who were committed to not sending our money overseas to Al-Qaeda, who wanted cleaner air, and were pleased because GM was making an electric car that could do that. Does anyone remember the statistic that GM kept promoting with the initial unveiling of the Volt: “80% of all Americans drive less than 40 miles a day,” followed by the explanation that this car will be a purely electric car (in practice) for that 80%? What happened to that line? Well, it was apparently swept under the rug when Nissan unveiled a 100 mile EV. Afterall, reminding the country that 80% of us on an average day would be just fine in a LEAF doesn’t make for good business practice for GM, so it was then that the message evolved to “range anxiety.” Now, this site is riddled with anti-BEV, range anxiety, knee-jerk reactions day after day when in reality, the LEAF is also what we want to see happen. Come on guys, can’t you see what’s going on here? The Volt is an amazing car, but is it really necessary to engage in LEAF-bashing day after day? Isn’t the LEAF a part of the bigger prize? If you don’t believe me, then conduct a quick study on your own: tally the number of times that LEAF-bashing occurs as opposed to Yukon, Expedition, Explorer, Denali, etc.-bashing. We want 20,000 LEAFs and 25,000 Volts sold this year; in fact, we want 150,000 of each sold every year, which would still be only a fraction of the approximately 12,000,000 autos that will be sold in this country this year. So please, for the last time, loving the Volt does not necessitate celebrating the shortcomings of the LEAF.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:18 pm)

    Tagamet: Anyone who realizes that they can drive the LEAF about 2 hours a day – then it goes on the charger for the rest of the day, is going to stumble upon a “teachable moment”.

    Four of us share three cars. On a normal day, one gets used for 24 minutes, one gets used for 16 minutes and one get used either 0 or 12 minutes. I daresay an EV with a two-hour limit isn’t going to be a problem for us. Almost any multi-car family could use an EV with a two-hour daily use limit.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:21 pm)

    The volt and the leaf compliment one another. Owning both is a win win till an ev can go 300mpc and recharge in 10 minutes.

    Tim in SC: I find it fascinating how this website has evolved from an electric car site to a “more car than electric” anti-EV site.In saying this, my intention is not to insult Statik; on the contrary, he does a great job reporting and should be commended for his objectivity.Regarding many of the adherents to this blog, however, it’s clear that many have not kept their eyes on the bigger prize.The initial excitement surrounding the Volt dealt with it being “more electric than car,” namely because we already had/have plenty of “car” options out there.Only a few years ago this website seemed to have followers who were committed to not sending our money overseas to Al-Qaeda, who wanted cleaner air, and were pleased because GM was making an electric car that could do that.Does anyone remember the statistic that GM kept promoting with the initial unveiling of the Volt: “80% of all Americans drive less than 40 miles a day,” followed by the explanation that this car will be a purely electric car (in practice) for that 80%?What happened to that line?Well, it was apparently swept under the rug when Nissan unveiled a 100 mile EV.Afterall, reminding the country that 80% of us on an average day would be just fine in a LEAF doesn’t make for good business practice for GM, so it was then that the message evolved to “range anxiety.”Now, this site is riddled with anti-BEV, range anxiety, knee-jerk reactions day after day when in reality, the LEAF is also what we want to see happen.Come on guys, can’t you see what’s going on here?The Volt is an amazing car, but is it really necessary to engage in LEAF-bashing day after day?Isn’t the LEAF a part of the bigger prize?If you don’t believe me, then conduct a quick study on your own: tally the number of times that LEAF-bashing occurs as opposed to Yukon, Expedition, Explorer, Denali, etc.-bashing.We want 20,000 LEAFs and 25,000 Volts sold this year; in fact, we want 150,000 of each sold every year, which would still be only a fraction of the approximately 12,000,000 autos that will be sold in this country this year.So please, for the last time, loving the Volt does not necessitate celebrating the shortcomings of the LEAF.    


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:28 pm)

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:30 pm)

    DonC: The Volt is the Prius as the Prius is to the Insight. Technically the parallel setup used by the Prius is ill suited for a plug-in and will relegate the PIP to perennial also ran status. If you want a plug-in hybrid, the Volt is so superior to a PIP that unless you can’t afford the best it’s not much of a choice.  

    I know this is the position of GM, but, the jury on this is still out. Don’t forget C-Max Energi, which will also be a PowerSplit arrangement.

    It will all finally come down to price. If serial plugins continue to be priced 5K or 10K more than PowerSplit plugins, I think PowerSplit will win out. The market at $30K is larger than $40K. I’m not sure there are too many people who care whether a car uses some gas assist above 60 mph or not. This kind of “purity” is desired only by enthusiasts. Even for me, at $40K, C-Max Energi is preferable over Volt.

    I’ve a post on why Ford chose PowerSplit over Serial in my blog …

    http://www.c-maxenergi.com/2011/02/why-ford-chose-powersplit-instead-of.html


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:34 pm)

    I personally am not interested in buying a pure EV at this point. But I want them to sell. Mainly because the US needs to move away from gas as fast as possible.

    Personally, I’m hoping that this means that production is being diverted to Japan. And Ford will have a chance to catch up. And maybe get a share of the early adopters.

    On a personal note, I haven’t been around lately because I’ve had to do a lot of traveling for work. Things were very crazy for a while. Hopefully, that may be over.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:35 pm)

    Tim in SC: I find it fascinating how this website has evolved from an electric car site to a “more car than electric” anti-EV site.

    At least to me, this site has ALWAYS been a Volt site first & foremost, not an electric car site. The world’s first and only electric car with gas backup, from an American company? Shockingly surprising, very exciting and makes me proud to be an American. GM’s (and Ford’s and even Chrysler’s to some extent) new products are suddenly world-class, and their mkt capitalizations show it. THAT’S why I started coming here, and still is the reason. Can’t wait to see what they have coming next.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:37 pm)

    Tagamet: I’d love to see both vehicles sold in*very* large numbers. Anyone who realizes that they can drive the LEAF about 2 hours a day – then it goes on the charger for the rest of the day, is going to stumble upon a “teachable moment”.

    Anyone who spends 2 hours driving everyday needs to think about their lifestyle and how sustainable or desirable it is. Leaf is definitely not the car for them. My guess is only 5% of the US population spends 2 hours everyday driving (more than 100 miles per day).


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (1:54 pm)

    I agree with the posters who believe – at least in part – Nissan’s hedging for a gen2 battery. What’s interesting is Nissan has had more free ink with LEAF than any other model. This does not bode well for EV progress in 2011.

    Looks like a polar bear’s up for adoption


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:00 pm)

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:02 pm)

    evnow: My guess is only 5% of the US population spends 2 hours everyday driving (more than 100 miles per day).

    My guess is that it’s way more than that, at least of the vehicle-driving subset of the population. Here in Chicago, 1-hour vehicle commute times each way are common. Plus lunch and after-work errands, etc., quickly get a lot of folks over the 2 hour mark. I suppose someone with some time should Google it to find out.

    Either way, the point of Volt’s gas-backup is peace of mind, which is an emotional value, akin to V-8 engines, 20-inch wheels, shiny paint, exotic wood trim, grass lawns in Phoenix, Iowa housewives learning French, spas for dogs, etc.–they have no logical value, only emotional. But THAT value is HUGE, as any successful vehicle manufacturer, or actually, the MOST successful ones, know to their very bones. Obvious to any observer who spends a few minutes on the highway commute and looks around at the metal, and obvious to anyone who’s been in sales or product development.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:11 pm)

    evnow: BTW, Nissan has delivered more than 1,000 Leafs so far, 981 of them in Japan. They are pumping as many Leafs as possible in Japan before the rebate runs out for the year in March. Also, just yesterday Nissan dealers were informed that they would be getting hundreds of Leafs in April.

    I was all ready to drop a “snarky” on Nissan for it’s shouting, over-the-top promises (verses the reality); until I read this. It makes sense that Nissan is going for the biggest bang first in the place with the biggest buck. We’d better wait for April and May before crowing too loud.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    herculepoirot: I work from home, so it would be short range errand car, rarely needing to go full range

    Pure EVs will solve specific problems, for those who can afford them. Volt is the first general purpose EV. Whenever Pure EVs become capable of general use, it will have been less due of the cars themselves, and much more to do with the public recharging infrastructure. Whatever your leaning, you cannot get around the fact that it will take many, many years before public charging can make Pure EVs a general use alternative.

    .


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:16 pm)

    LauraM,
    Glad your back. :)


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:16 pm)

    gonnzo: Then why don’t you go buy a volt for your patriotism?

    Can’t afford it at the moment. :^(

    Doesn’t lower my appreciation at what they’ve done and apparently what they are now capable of doing. And this coming from a long-time foreign make owner–currently a Honda that I’m very happy with. I sense a growing sea change of awareness that the American vehicle companies have largely caught up to their foreign competitors, and in some cases like the Volt, exceeded them. Still early in the perception (and rightlyfully so, given all the insults former purchasers endured during the bad days), but it’s trending the right way for this American-lover. Just check out Automobile Mag’s review of the new Ford Focus–they said it goes right to the top of its class (along with the new Hyundai), right past the foreign products, including those from Honda and Toyota, among others.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:21 pm)

    MichaelH: LauraM,
    Glad your back. :)

    Thank you. :)


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:24 pm)

    T 1: it’s trending the right way for this American-lover. Just check out Automobile Mag’s review of the new Ford Focus

    And I put my $ where my writing hand is–I’ve made good money investing in Ford’s recent turnaround. Another vehicle that looks like it’ll be a winner–the new Explorer. WAY better in every way than its crappy but for-several-years-big-seller predecessor.

    Yet another sign of the American vehicle manufacturing turnaround–GM’s success in China. Buick is huge there. Who woulda thunk? Several years ago, I was very surprised. But no more.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:27 pm)

    If Nissan can purchase the Leaf battery at a lower cost in a few months, that would be a good reason to delay the manufacture of the vehicle until later in the year.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It has a lot to do with the color of the car. My favorite is red, and black and white look good too. Enjoy the photos from the Feb 5th CAB rally in Burbank and Irwindale.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/mark-z/sets/72157625861178675/

    5420928012_5d21efbc06_z.jpg


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:32 pm)

    Noel Park: Anyway, there are/were something like 50K people signed up on the GM-Volt.com “wait list”. Judging by the fact that my dealer still has available allocation slots, it seems pretty clear that 50K people haven’t stepped up to order Volts. So nobody’s perfect.

    That wait list was started when people thought the car was going to be a lot cheaper. But even if that weren’t the case, it’s not surprising that not everyone who signed up is actually putting in an order three years later. Circumstances change.

    That said, right now, GM’s only selling Volts in certain limited locations. There probably are at least 50k people willing to order a Volt. But many of them don’t live in an initial roll out area.

    And then there’s international demand…


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:36 pm)

    gonzoThere is no erev other than the karma. It’s just marketing smoke & mirrors to hide the true fact that the volt is not erev. Has the same sun gearing as a prius of which is also directly driven by the ice when its most efficient to.     

    gonzo: There is no erev other than the karma. It’s just marketing smoke & mirrors to hide the true fact that the volt is not erev. Has the same sun gearing as a prius of which is also directly driven by the ice when its most efficient to.     

    So, it’s not an EREV because they made it more efficient at high speeds instead of trying to meet your arbitrary definition? Oh those awful people!


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:43 pm)

    gonnzo: Why do you people call the volt an ev when all of you volt owners have already burned petroleum in the volt? It’s a phv hybrid and the ice “drives the wheels” for best efficiency

    Because it is an EV that can do more when needed. It’s doing more while the Leaf sits in the garage. It can be a pure EV if driven in a limited fashion (< 40 miles a day, < 70 mph) like the Leaf.

    I don't punish a car for doing more. I'm sorry you feel it's less of a car for doing more.

    For the record, I'm very happy both are built, but they obviously fill different needs. The Leaf can be a great 2nd car in the family, while the Volt can appeal to 1-car people/families.


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    Poked in the Eye

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (2:51 pm)

    Mark Z: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    True, but there is often a general consensus of beauty even if it resists definition, e.g., who’s prettier, Jessica Biel or Maggie Gyllenhaal? The Pontiac Aztek or the upcoming Tesla coupe? A panther or a sturgeon? San Francisco or the South Bronx? Scotty Pippen or Larry Bird? (trick question!)


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    Bedtime for Gonnzo

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:22 pm)

    time to put on your prius pajamas and go nighty nighty


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:24 pm)

    LauraM: On a personal note, I haven’t been around lately because I’ve had to do a lot of traveling for work.

    #63

    Nice to have you back. +1


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:28 pm)

    Tim in SC: I find it fascinating how this website has evolved from an electric car site to a “more car than electric” anti-EV site.

    Tim in SC: so it was then that the message evolved to “range anxiety.

    #58

    It’s a “Volt” site.

    Range anxiety has been a key issue here from the first day.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:30 pm)

    T 1: At least to me, this site has ALWAYS been a Volt site first & foremost, not an electric car site

    #64

    Right. +1


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:34 pm)

    LauraM: There probably are at least 50k people willing to order a Volt.

    #75

    God send that it shall be true.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:34 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:36 pm)

    Bedtime for Gonnzo: time to put on your prius pajamas and go nighty nighty Bedtime for Gonnzo

    #79

    LOL. Thanks. +1


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:38 pm)

    Charlie H:
    Four of us share three cars.On a normal day, one gets used for 24 minutes, one gets used for 16 minutes and one get used either 0 or 12 minutes.I daresay an EV with a two-hour limit isn’t going to be a problem for us.Almost any multi-car family could use an EV with a two-hour daily use limit.    

    I’d agree that a three car family could probably do fine with a Leaf. The potential problem comes up as to WHICH 24 minutes you are going to need to drive those cars. If you drove all three Leafs at 8 am, you are grounded from 10 a.m. until the next day. Things get pretty flexible with 3 *anythings* to call on (like 2 cars and a bike?). I put my “plug” in for the both to be successful, I’m just saying that to buy a vehicle that can be used for such a limited window *per day*, has limited utility.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:41 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:47 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:47 pm)

    Noel Park: Nice to have you back.

    Thank you.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (3:57 pm)

    Noel Park: #79
    LOL. Thanks. +1

    Thanks, NP. I’m a long-time poster, but from time to time I just can’t resist messing with the goofs. I know, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel, but somehow it still feels good. Guess everyone has a dark side. Glad mine at least has a sense of humor. 8^)


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (4:05 pm)

    evnow:
    Anyone who spends 2 hours driving everyday needs to think about their lifestyle and how sustainable or desirable it is. Leaf is definitely not the car for them. My guess is only 5% of the US population spends 2 hours everyday driving (more than 100 miles per day).    

    Anyone who spends 2 hours driving *everyday* would seem likely to be doing so for employment as opposed to driving around for the fun of it. Having a lifestyle without employment is tough to sustain too.
    I was simply speaking to the limited driving time available *when it’s needed*, and in no way suggested that most people should.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (4:48 pm)

    gonnzo,

    They both have planetary gear sets, but the difference is where the ICE is on the gear set. The Volt is primarily an electric car that will use it’s ICE for motive force at high speeds (~ 70 mph) once the battery is depleted. The ICE is still turning the generator providing electricity. The Prius on the other hand uses it’s gas engine as it’s primary motive force. This is obvious when you look at the hp of the ICE engines in each (~84 hp for the Volt and 149 hp for the Prius). Which one do you think relies on it’s ICE more for power.

    The Volt overtime will decrease the size of of it’s ICE engine. The Prius engine has been getting larger.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (4:53 pm)

    Tagamet: Anyone who spends 2 hours driving *everyday* would seem likely to be doing so for employment as opposed to driving around for the fun of it. Having a lifestyle without employment is tough to sustain too.

    One of my friends’ coworkers commuted two hours to work each way. He didn’t like living in the city. And he wanted a big house. His choice, of course. But this translated into him never being at work during snow days. He was frequently late. He wasn’t willing to work late. And he’d never come in on weekends. My friend always had to fill in for him. Therefore, when the firm had to lay off people, he was one of the first to go.

    I’m not saying that everyone who has a long commute is like that. Most aren’t as bad as my friend’s coworker. But I do know a lot of employers who consider potential employee’s commutes when making hiring decisions…


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (4:57 pm)

    Noel Park: #58It’s a “Volt” site.Range anxiety has been a key issue here from the first day.    

    So if GM would have cancelled the EREV system and made the Volt a typical ICE car, you honestly believe everyone here would have remained loyal Volt fans regardless? This is a Volt site, but you’re missing what the Volt, like the LEAF, is about first and foremost: electric driving. We love the Volt because we want a car that is “more electric than car” (like the LEAF likewise aspires to be), but we also want a back-up ICE system for occasional use from an American car company. Again, LEAF bashing is stupid because they are the only guys on our team right now. Love your Volt, but cheer on the LEAF as well.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:02 pm)

    Tagamet: Anyone who spends 2 hours driving *everyday* would seem likely to be doing so for employment as opposed to driving around for the fun of it. Having a lifestyle without employment is tough to sustain too.

    #91

    Sad but true, LOL. +1


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:05 pm)

    LauraM:
    One of my friends’ coworkers commuted two hours to work each way.He didn’t like living in the city.And he wanted a big house.His choice, of course.But this translated into him never being at work during snow days.He was frequently late.He wasn’t willing to work late.And he’d never come in on weekends. My friend always had to fill in for him.Therefore, when the firm had to lay off people, he was one of the first to go.

    I think him being dismissed had more to do with his work habits and commitment to the employer than his distance from the job.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:14 pm)

    LauraM,

    I think that obscenely long commutes like that have a way of “fixing themselves” Either it plays out as you described, or the person decides to make different “choices”. There are days in my part-time job where I spend the whole day driving, but that’s getting the auction’s vehicle “A” to point “B”.

    Welcome back!
    Tagamet


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:23 pm)

    evnow: PowerSp

    The problem with power split it assumes battery cost wont come down as battery tech improves. Better batteries benefit the Volt. As the cost of batteries comes down, GM can increase the range of the Volt, decrease cost of the car, both or decrease the size of the ICE if the battery has a larger buffer.

    For Ford/Toyota better battery tech benefits them to a lesser degree since they rely on the ICE for the primary motive force. In the end the difference is the Volt is more electric than gas car. The ICE in the Prius will never get smaller, but the ICE in the Volt can to the point where it doesn’t existing anymore.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:26 pm)

    A few salient points to make:
    1. I have watched this site since its inception – alot longer than many of you. And have been eagerly awaiting the release of the Volt (and any similar car) for a long time. I am an advocate for getting off foreign oil more than anything.
    2. I have a LEAF on order. i was told in January that it would be delivered in 4 – 7 months. I was not impressed. However, i got an email today saying that it will get delivered in April – 1 month ahead of the earliest prediction. So, if i am not an aberration, i have to assume that Nissan is indeed ramping up production and has solved their “issues”.
    3. The LEAF is a fine car for a certain demographic. People like me who have a wife and two kids, and two cars and where one car is used 100% for commuting or short around suburbia weekend trips. I have a minivan and a BMW 540iT (wagon) that gets an average of 13mpg. That car is used 100% for a 25 mile each way commute Monday thru Friday. It will be sold and replaced by the LEAF. There is zero benefit to getting a Volt for this vehicle usage model.
    4. The Leaf is significantly cheaper than the Volt. My out the door cost will be $34k – $7.5k – $5k, or $21.5k.
    5. I will use zero gas. Not 135mpg, not 200mpg, but zero gas.
    6. I will be allowed in the car pool lane with one occupant (i live in CA) – not so with the Volt. That will cut my commute from over 45 minutes to less than 25 minutes. Each way. You can put your own price on that!
    7. Many of you posting need to step back and “take a look at the man in the mirror.” Reading this site has turned into a chore. Its worse than reading Fox news for gods sake! Many of you are very closed minded and have some serious blinkers on. The Volt is a great achievement, but its not the second coming of the Lord as many of you are making it out to be. Its still way over priced, not affordable for most car buyers, and still a worse bet than buying a regular sedan on a pure cost basis over its lifetime. The Leaf is not perfect, Nissan has had its issues, but trust me, over time EVs (Nissans, Fords, GMs if they build one, Fiskers, Teslas, etc) will sell very well thank you very much.

    Nuff said…


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:32 pm)

    theflew: For Ford/Toyota better battery tech benefits them to a lesser degree since they rely on the ICE for the primary motive force.

    Wow! Talking about not having any idea how the competition’s system actually works.

    Prius_PHV_Gauge-70MPH-992RPM.jpg

    See what’s on that gauge? How can the claim be made that the ICE is primary when the traction-motor is contributing that much power? Notice the RPM of the ICE? Notice the MPG resulting from using having that electricity available?

    .


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:38 pm)

    T 1: Yet another sign of the American vehicle manufacturing turnaround–GM’s success in China.

    This is largely because the Chinese are so hungry for cars that they will buy anything… and the Chinese domestic vehicles aren’t particularly good.

    This is not to say GM hasn’t improved, I think they have, but to set some perspective.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:54 pm)

    Tagamet: I’d agree that a three car family could probably do fine with a Leaf. The potential problem comes up as to WHICH 24 minutes you are going to need to drive those cars. If you drove all three Leafs at 8 am, you are grounded from 10 a.m. until the next day. Things get pretty flexible with 3 *anythings* to call on (like 2 cars and a bike?). I put my “plug” in for the both to be successful, I’m just saying that to buy a vehicle that can be used for such a limited window *per day*, has limited utility.Be well,Tagamet  (Quote)  (Reply)

    And that’s the thing… the market for an EV or EREV is so small, that one might as well market a vehicle to the multi-car family as their Nth vehicle. GM missed the price point by attempting to build a car that’s marketed as “all things to all people,” when, in fact, there’s no such thing.

    I don’t tell my wife what to think about these things but she is aware of the Volt and has said, without any prompting from me, that $41K is a non-starter. The tax credit didn’t fix change her mind. She is willing to consider a Leaf, if the net ends up in the $20′s. Range anxiety? Nope… she understands it’s an EV, she won’t take it out of town.

    After you deliver a few hundred cars to the super-fanatics and attempt to sell a real car to normal people on its actual value, price matters. A lot.

    There’s a reason Wal*Mart crushed a lot of little stores that offered superior, Made-in-America products. Americans aren’t thrifty, they’re cheap.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (5:54 pm)

    john1701a:
    Wow!Talking about not having any idea how the competition’s system actually works.See what’s on that gauge?How can the claim be made that the ICE is primary when the traction-motor is contributing that much power?Notice the RPM of the ICE?Notice the MPG resulting from using having that electricity available?.    

    This isn’t the competitions system. Unless you have a Plug in Prius made by Toyota and not a custom conversion. I’m sure if I could modify the Volts software I could get better MPG out of the Volt, but I might void it’s warranty. What I was stating was if you put larger batteries in the Prius you can increase it’s electric miles, but you’re carrying along a large ICE engine. The whole point of power split is you’re not doing 70 mph using the electric motor. If you are you basically have an EV or a Volt (without generator).


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:04 pm)

    Noel Park: Anyway, there are/were something like 50K people signed up on the GM-Volt.com “wait list”.Judging by the fact that my dealer still has available allocation slots, it seems pretty clear that 50K people haven’t stepped up to order Volts.So nobody’s perfect.    

    =========================================

    If there are dealers with available cars for sale now, I wonder if those dealers are still adding on a Pricing Premium. That is enough to kill sales for many people, myself included. Also, if the word about the $7.5K tax rebate being changed to a purchase discount at the time of sale is true, then I would consider waiting a few more weeks. But that is just me….

    My number on Lyle’s list was about 1390. I would own a Volt now, but it is my position that a purchase this large should be made at my local dealer, not from someone I don’t know that is 300-2500 miles away. And I have to think I am not alone in that idea. So I have to wait until GM decides that the Chevy dealers from the great state of Ohio can take my order!!

    So I am unhappily waiting………


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:06 pm)

    Poked in the Eye: Which is prettier? Scotty Pippen or Larry Bird? (trick question!)

    Pretty is as pretty does. Pippen had 17 years and 18K points to Bird’s 13 years with 21K points.

    I’ll take Bird. Besides, I’m from “Baahstin.”


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:12 pm)

    “One of my friends’ coworkers commuted two hours to work each way. He didn’t like living in the city.”

    And we pretend that personal choices don’t matter to the rest of the country. We built a lot of extra road to support that lifestyle and he wasted a lot of oil that won’t be replaced anytime soon.

    On a personal level, I can’t imagine being so burdened by materialism that one must spend 4 hours behind the wheel to live in a big house. I’d rather commute 5 minutes each way to and from a modest house, or even an apartment, and spend the extra 3 hours and 50 minutes with my family.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:14 pm)

    Mark Z: If Nissan can purchase the Leaf battery at a lower cost in a few months, that would be a good reason to delay the manufacture of the vehicle until later in the year.Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It has a lot to do with the color of the car. My favorite is red, and black and white look good too. Enjoy the photos from the Feb 5th CAB rally in Burbank and Irwindale.    

    It still looks ugly to me. Maybe because I was born in New York City, not in Tokyo.

    Raymond


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:16 pm)

    theflew: I think him being dismissed had more to do with his work habits and commitment to the employer than his distance from the job.

    Absolutely. But he was a much better employee before he moved. Basically, it’s a lot harder to give your job 100% when you’re spending four hours a day in a car. Obviously it’s possible. There are people who do it. But it is more difficult.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:18 pm)

    Charlie H:
    And that’s the thing… the market for an EV or EREV is so small, that one might as well market a vehicle to the multi-car family as their Nth vehicle.GM missed the price point by attempting to build a car that’s marketed as “all things to all people,” when, in fact, there’s no such thing.I don’t tell my wife what to think about these things but she is aware of the Volt and has said, without any prompting from me, that $41K is a non-starter.The tax credit didn’t fix change her mind.She is willing to consider a Leaf, if the net ends up in the $20’s.Range anxiety?Nope… she understands it’s an EV, she won’t take it out of town.After you deliver a few hundred cars to the super-fanatics and attempt to sell a real car to normal people on its actual value, price matters.A lot.There’s a reason Wal*Mart crushed a lot of little stores that offered superior, Made-in-America products.Americans aren’t thrifty, they’re cheap.    

    In large part, I agree with your post except your conclusions. I know we’ll just have to agree to disagree, but “Cheap” seems pretty far removed from the Volt. I haven’t seen anything other than a superior product that is made very well. Did they hit their goal re price – of course not. So what’s your alternative for GM? Acquiesce to Nisson? I’m pretty sure that someone at GM noticed that *this version* only has 4 seats. They just chose to not let perfect be the enemy of the good (or great). If they are totally incapable of improving on the Volt Gen I, then you might end up being correct – niche vehicle. Even in that worst case scenario, the Volt covers a heck of a large niche.
    If you posted it, I missed it, but have you and/or your wife driven the Volt and Leaf? Just curious.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:20 pm)

    Jim I: If there are dealers with available cars for sale now, I wonder if those dealers are still adding on a Pricing Premium.

    Jim I: I would own a Volt now, but it is my position that a purchase this large should be made at my local dealer, not from someone I don’t know that is 300-2500 miles away.

    #105

    As to the price, my dealer is selling them at MSRP. He says that GM has STRONGLY urged them to do so. I assume that there is some sort of incentive to do so, future allocations or something.

    As to buying locally, I could not agree more. The dealer I am buying from is the closest to our business. We buy a LOT of parts from them, and we have a good relationship. I have been kibitzing with them about the Volt since the beginning of GM-Volt.com. So I sort of felt like I had to put my money where my mouth was If not for that, I would probably have waited as you are. In addition to the tax credit issue you raise, we are foregoing a couple of thousand in GM-Mastercard credit. Oh the burden of the early adopters, LOL.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:30 pm)

    Tagamet: In large part, I agree with your post except your conclusions. I know we’ll just have to agree to disagree, but “Cheap” seems pretty far removed from the Volt. I haven’t seen anything other than a superior product that is made very well. Did they hit their goal re price – of course not.

    #109

    I agree. +1

    Someone mentioned here the other day that his wife’s 3 series BMW cost over $38K for chrissake, so what’s the problem. There are plenty of neighborhoods in SoCal where a $45K car is a sign of frugality, LOL. People have often commented here on all of the high end cars people buy, and their reasons for buying them. To me a Volt is a lot more of a fashion statement than any Benz or Lexus, neither of which I would be caught dead driving.

    I’m just saying that there is a HUGE market for $40K+ cars when you come to think about it. They just have to make a strong enough statement about styling, and technological superiority to catch the fancy of the people who can buy them.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:32 pm)

    Tagamet: I think that obscenely long commutes like that have a way of “fixing themselves” Either it plays out as you described, or the person decides to make different “choices”. There are days in my part-time job where I spend the whole day driving, but that’s getting the auction’s vehicle “A” to point “B”.

    Welcome back!

    In a lot of jobs, you can work from home several days a week. But that’s not always an option. And I know people who rent apartments in the city to stay in during the week, to shorten their commute. It’s expensive. Especially given the price of real estate in the city. But it’s worth it to them to actually be at work on time.

    And, of course, it’s a totally different story if you have to drive for work.

    And, thank you.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:32 pm)

    Noel Park: As to the price, my dealer is selling them at MSRP. He says that GM has STRONGLY urged them to do so. I assume that there is some sort of incentive to do so, future allocations or something.

    It’s my understanding that the MSRP has a dealer profit baked in already. Granted, some dealers might want to make even more, but I don’t think that they are losing anything selling at MSRP.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:35 pm)

    LauraM: And, thank you.

    Plenty have said it already, but we missed your point of view. I even subscribed to a NYC newspaper, just to fill the void (lol).

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:37 pm)

    evnow: Power

    The Power split is very similar to the Prius system (and probably what the Escape Hybrid uses, too), so Ford is staying more on the parallel hybrid side of the “road”. It will work well for those who travel more than 100 miles, and probably get better MPG than the Volt, but the Volt will win for the majority who travel less than 50 miles per trip. I am in this group, and only once a month is when I travel more than 50 miles. If I can travel over twenty days a month with no gasoline, I will save more with the Volt than with a parallel hybrid.

    I didn’t buy a Ford Escape Hybrid in 2009 because none of the Ford dealers wanted to sell me one (they all wanted me to buy an Explorer), but now I see that my Chevy Equinox is a better deal, until GM produces the Voltec SUV.

    Raymond


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:41 pm)

    Charlie H: This is largely because the Chinese are so hungry for cars that they will buy anything… and the Chinese domestic vehicles aren’t particularly good.

    This is not to say GM hasn’t improved, I think they have, but to set some perspective.

    And that explains why GM is outselling Toyota and Ford in China? Maybe no other foreign automakers are willing to sell to the Chinese?

    Personally, I suspect that GM’s success in China has a lot more to do with playing nice with the Chinese government, and, as a result, getting greater market access to the Chinese consumer, than the quality, or lack thereof of their cars…But that doesn’t mean the Chinese consumer will buy literally anything. The Chinese market is notoriously difficult to penetrate. For numerous reasons.


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    Tim in SC

     

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:43 pm)

    Raymondjram:
    It still looks ugly to me. Maybe because I was born in New York City, not in Tokyo.Raymond    

    Interesting Raymond… so if the LEAF looked like a banged-up taxi cab, then you’d find it more appealing?


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    pjkPA

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:52 pm)

    Charlie H,

    I know someone who grew up in China and goes back every year to visit family… he said the Chinese like the Buicks because they are so roomy. handle rough roads better and last long. He said that the chinese buy one car per family and usually drive on bad roads. They usually have all the family in the car. I have a Buick that is going on 10 years old now… 100K miles and looks and runs quieter and smoother than a lot of brand new cars I’ve driven in. It has been extremely reliable. $124 in total repairs … one bushing from hitting a huge pot hole and a water pump that I put in myself in a couple hours for $22. It still has it’s original stainless steel exhaust and no rust galvanized body. It took me a while to buy a Buick.. after 10 years I can say I’m very pleased I bought it.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:55 pm)

    Tagamet: It’s my understanding that the MSRP has a dealer profit baked in already. Granted, some dealers might want to make even more, but I don’t think that they are losing anything selling at MSRP.

    At MSRP there is about $1800 profit. Not a lot. So, if GM gives each dealer 17 cars for the year, then they will make enough to pay back the $30,000 each dealer had to give up front for parts, tools, training and the demo unit.


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    LauraM

     

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (6:57 pm)

    Tagamet: Plenty have said it already, but we missed your point of view. I even subscribed to a NYC newspaper, just to fill the void (lol).

    Be well,

    lol. Thank you. I think.


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    Noah Nehm

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:11 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: This Volt is the answer for today.
    Nothing changes.I can plug it in or not.

    A corollary to this is: If gas becomes expensive, I’ll use electricity; when electricity becomes expensive, I’ll use gas.

    To be able to trade off one energy source from another provides the Volt owner with the ability to optimize his cost-to-drive, making him much more resilient to prices shocks (ahem!) in one market or the other.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:20 pm)

    Charlie H: This is largely because the Chinese are so hungry for cars that they will buy anything… and the Chinese domestic vehicles aren’t particularly good.

    This is not to say GM hasn’t improved, I think they have, but to set some perspective.

    You’ve added a lot of substance to the discussion, but I suspect that you are not that well-informed on this particular subject. When were you last in China? Aside from pickup trucks, their selection among both domestic brands and those familiar to us makes the US market look like 1970′s South Dakota. And while not every manufacturer has a Cadillac, their quality is right on par with the US, with engines built to best suit their needs over there.

    All that is with a comparably tiny proportion of drivers, due to 1)Income then 2)Regulation the 3)Demand in most areas.

    They aren’t buying GM because they’re the only livable cars on the lot.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:41 pm)

    CorvetteGuy:
    At MSRP there is about $1800 profit. Not a lot. So, if GM gives each dealer 17 cars for the year, then they will make enough to pay back the $30,000 each dealer had to give up front for parts, tools, training and the demo unit.    

    But that’s just priming the pump, so to speak. If they are allotted 10X more in year 2, and double *that* in year 3, we’re starting to talk real money (g).

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:49 pm)

    Mark Z,

    That’s probably the best pic of a Leaf I’ve seen…… and it’s still ugly.


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    Schmeltz

     

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:53 pm)

    Noel Park: I’m just saying that there is a HUGE market for $40K+ cars when you come to think about it. They just have to make a strong enough statement about styling, and technological superiority to catch the fancy of the people who can buy them

    Agree 100%. To add to that, when one considers the swath of products that routinely land in the $40 grand range, it gets to be a fairly large domain. Four door crew cab Silverados which I see many of in my locale, often are in the $40 grand ball park especially when the options starting piling on. Add those to the luxury and near luxury brands and the numbers of nameplates climb. If the economy can/will recover in any sort of measurable way, the market for $40 grand vehicles should inflate along with it, (at least I hope).


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    James

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (7:56 pm)

    DonC: The Volt is to Prius as the Prius is to the Insight. Technically the parallel setup used by the Prius is ill suited for a plug-in and will relegate the PIP to perennial also ran status. If you want a plug-in hybrid, the Volt is so superior to a PIP that unless you can’t afford the best it’s not much of a choice.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    + 1 + Very well stated and succinctly explained.

    I would add that the way PIP is not like Insight is that the original Honda Insight didn’t have mass appeal and didn’t sell in large numbers as Prius has. PIP has the advantage of momentum since present Prius owners ( and they are legion ) will likely gravitate to the “new improved” PIP and stay brand loyal. The Honda Insight is a sales failure because Honda tried to undercut Toyota with a “bargain” Prius hoping that cheaper materials and an inferior IMA hybrid – system where the ICE always turns whether combusting or not – would woo customers who are less technical and still see the word “hybrid” as a type of vehicle that are all basically the same. Recouping the sales losses with the “sport” CR-Z with the same powertrain has seemingly fell on it’s face.

    PIP has the argument of less price AND the boast that it will still return 50+ mpg in CS mode on longer trips, making it a better choice than Volt if you drive long distances regularly. I feel the PIP will force GM to quicken a less expensive version of Voltec to market – which, of course, is a good thing.

    Competition is the fuel of invention, so I welcome the challenge of PIP and think we all win in the end as these two duke it out in the marketplace. We Volt fans will always know ( esp. ones like me who own a Prius ) that Volt is plain superior in that it’s SOLID on the road and doesn’t sacrifice REAL CAR abilities the way ANY current Prius, plug or not does. PriusChat fanboys need to DRIVE a Volt. I know one who posts regularly there I met at the Volt Unplugged event in Lynnwood Washington who did, and he must admit that compared to his Prius, the Volt just is more solid feeling, quieter ,wimpy and more stable than the Prius we currently own. In the end a fanboy is a fanboy and there’s plenty of market to go around.

    Volt will convert many Priusphiles, LEAF will lure them, but many of us are too weary of getting stuck to go hardcore pure EV to pull the trigger on a LEAF purchase just yet. It boils down to initial economics at purchase for many – and we’ll have to see where the MSRP falls on PIP and if GM will counter soon after with a more affordable Volt ( without tax break ).

    THEY’RE PUMPIN’ OUT THE VOLTS! ,

    James


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    James

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:11 pm)

    ” unwimpy” …. is not a word. I was trying to edit that out when my time expired…LOL. Don’t read me wrong above and think I characterized Volt as “wimpy”….it was a typo!!! :)

    Those that drive a Prius daily like me, and drove a Volt know that the Volt is worth it’s price in that it doesn’t feel like a Prius.

    I like my Prius a lot. I LOVED my Prius back in the day when I bought it. It’s just that PIP doesn’t match Volt’s solid, real car-like feel. My Prius is the Touring addition – which was touted as the “Euro Tuned” model with stiffer suspension and bigger tires. Still, my Touring Prius is a wagon with skinny tires in turns – it’s squishy, wimpy and nervous. I don’t care that it’s not a performance car – I never purchased it to be sporty. I bought it to save gas and drive cleaner. If I have the choice to buy a car that is cleaner most of the time, and frugal on fuel most of the time – AND drives with a solid feel with excellent dynamics – I will go that route. That’s why I am a Prius owner who intends to kiss Toyota bye bye and go with a new Volt.

    Granted GM has a mountain to climb with it’s perception of quality. But Toyota folks need to look at what’s happening over at Toyota ( new recalls every week ) and decide whether that loyalty is well founded anymore. To me, GM is on the up and Toyota on the downslide.

    THEY’RE PUMPIN’ OUT THE VOLTS! ,

    James


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:21 pm)

    Nissan has re-introduced the GM EV-1 in 2011. It is also a B-segment (sub-compact), vehicle, much like the A segment EV-1. Its range is only marginally better, and the life expectancy of the battery is barely better. Little engineering effort was expended to lengthen the battery life, so it will fail in 3-4 years.

    The Volt has solved all these problems of the EV-1, and is a much larger vehicle. It is a C-segment vehicle seating four. Despite all the nonsense the EPA and CARB went through to discredit it, by altering the draft mileage spec and requiring a 150,0000 mile battery life when they didn’t do that for 100% EVs. The CS mileage of 37-40 mpg is fine but irrelevant, since that mode will occur less than 20% of the time that the typical owner drives it. It will still reduce carbon liquid fuel consumption by a ratio of about 9-1, and synthetic manufactured fuels, mostly ethanol is already 15% of consumption Therefor there is no need for liquid fossil fuel at all for ground transport. It thus answers the “sustainability problem”, for all time. It also answers all the economic and disruptive economic warfare that the Oil producers have used before.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (8:45 pm)

    Noah Nehm:
    A corollary to this is:If gas becomes expensive, I’ll use electricity; when electricity becomes expensive, I’ll use gas.To be able to trade off one energy source from another provides the Volt owner with the ability to optimize his cost-to-drive, making him much more resilient to prices shocks (ahem!) in one market or the other.    

    Well said. +1


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    Future looks bright

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:17 pm)

    Noah Nehm: A corollary to this is: If gas becomes expensive, I’ll use electricity; when electricity becomes expensive, I’ll use gas.

    And when gas and electricity becomes expensive market forces bring down the cost of PV panels and you have 30 years of car pushing energy on the roof of your garage or carport.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:22 pm)

    Charlie H: GM missed the price point by attempting to build a car that’s marketed as “all things to all people,” when, in fact, there’s no such thing.

    The Volt isn’t “all things to all people,” nor was it ever intended to be. It’s enough things for most people, though admittedly too much for too many in the first year. Hopefully, time moving forward will take care of most “too much” issues: like all those gee-whiz dash gadgets, and of course, the price.

    You must compare the Volt to a car which cannot, ever be all things to more than a very few; because of the limitations inherent in our public recharging infrastructure. The LEAF costs less than the Volt, but has far less utility. The Volt is uniquely suited to where we are at this moment. Troll blatherings aside, it can make a significant difference for most people, when doing most of their driving.

    That said, I bet we’ll find that the current Volt will be the “only” car for very few people, because of the cost. It will mostly be single executives, I think. Families which choose only one vehicle usually do so out of a sense of economy. Again, as economies of scale hit the supply chain(s), lower cost for future versions may change this.

    .


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:39 pm)

    Raymondjram: The Power split is very similar to the Prius system (and probably what the Escape Hybrid uses, too), so Ford is staying more on the parallel hybrid side of the “road”. It will work well for those who travel more than 100 miles, and probably get better MPG than the Volt, but the Volt will win for the majority who travel less than 50 miles per trip. I am in this group, and only once a month is when I travel more than 50 miles. If I can travel over twenty days a month with no gasoline, I will save more with the Volt than with a parallel hybrid.

    You are actually making the kind of argument I make for buying Leaf instead of Volt.

    In PHEV, finally what matters is how much gas was used. If Ford Energi uses small amounts of gas on the freeway (only when needing to accelerate above 60 mph, for eg.), on a monthly basis we may be looking at a difference of 5 gallons of gas between Volt and Energi. Assuming they cost the same, the higher utility of Energi will mean more buyers.

    Remember, most people when selecting a hybrid are doing so to reduce gas usage (yes, the green market for hybrids is over, taken over by BEV).

    At one level, it makes sense to say it us use the motor & battery at their most efficient, if that is going to cut cost.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:41 pm)

    Future looks bright: market forces bring down the cost of PV panels and you have 30 years of car pushing energy

    No one knows for sure how long PV cells will last. 25 years is usually assumed, though I’ve heard that measurable drops in power will begin in only 10. There is probably no need to worry much about the lifetime of monocrystalline silicon cells; but the cost for these is unlikely to fall: they are as cheap as they are only because of the silicon semiconductor industry which provides castoff wafers to their manufacturers: any dedicated crystalline silicon PV manufacturer has to compete against an already deeply discounted product. Market forces will likely push adoption of something else; most likely some kind of thin film. Thin film cells commonly used today seldom generate useful power for more than 3 years. Expected lifetime for a new thin film is likely to figure only in the small type. Caveat emptor!

    .


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:44 pm)

    T 1: My guess is that it’s way more than that, at least of the vehicle-driving subset of the population. Here in Chicago, 1-hour vehicle commute times each way are common. Plus lunch and after-work errands, etc., quickly get a lot of folks over the 2 hour mark.

    Number of hours of driving is a poor way to state usability of BEV. If someone drives below 70 miles a day, Leaf is a good fit. Even if it means 2 hours of driving through bumper-to-bumper traffic or on empty rural roads. That would be about 75% from the data below. If you want to keep ie below 50 miles, it is still 65%.

    daily_accrued_miles.jpg


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    evnow

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:49 pm)

    Stas Peterson: Nissan has re-introduced the GM EV-1 in 2011. It is also a B-segment (sub-compact), vehicle, much like the A segment EV-1. Its range is only marginally better, and the life expectancy of the battery is barely better. Little engineering effort was expended to lengthen the battery life, so it will fail in 3-4 years.

    Apparently you specialize is high noise/signal ratio. Better check EPA ratings, Volt is a compact vehicle and Leaf is mid-size. Rest of your post is no better.


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    Jackson

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:51 pm)

    john1701a: See what’s on that gauge?

    Funny, I have that same instrument (Scanguage). You ought to see the mileage my 2009 Honda Fit gets while rolling downhill!

    After all this time, you simply won’t understand the difference between getting high mpg all the time vs near-zero mpg most of the time? Amazing, though hardly surprising.

    .


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (9:54 pm)

    Jackson: The LEAF costs less than the Volt, but has far less utility.

    That is a very relative statement. A four seater with limited trunk that costs so much is essentially a non-starter for most families. Since 60% of families have multiple ICE cars already, they don’t need one more car with an engine …

    Though, really what every one of them should do is to buy one PHEV and one BEV. That covers most usage patterns.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:01 pm)

    Jackson: The LEAF costs less than the Volt, but has far less utility.

    evnow: That is a very relative statement.

    If you had read all of my comment, you might have seen how thoroughly that relativity was qualified (examples below):

    Jackson: That said, I bet we’ll find that the current Volt will be the “only” car for very few people, because of the cost.

    Jackson: The Volt isn’t “all things to all people,” nor was it ever intended to be. It’s enough things for most people, though admittedly too much for too many in the first year.

    .


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:19 pm)

    Poked in the Eye: The Pontiac Aztek

    Hey! I know people that love Aztek’s.


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    kdawg

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:20 pm)

    Kudos to Jon Laukner for putting in a range extender.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:23 pm)

    Jackson: If you had read all of my comment, you might have seen how thoroughly that relativity was qualified (examples below):

    I suspect that “perception” is exactly what is at the crux of the differences. Same set of stats and entirely different spin. EV just isn’t going to see it. JMO.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    herculepoirot

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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:26 pm)

    I think most of this discussion misses the real point, which is that until you can walk into a dealer and buy a volt or leaf without planning way ahead, most people won’t get them. I don’t have any statistics on this, but every car I’ve ever bought had a reason. My first car was totalled (but it was a 10 year old chevette so that didn’t require much damage). Second car had major mechanical issues and died. Third car couldn’t hold three car seats. Fourth and fifth cars (from Ford and Chrysler) had transmission deaths after second transmission failed.

    So every time I looked for a car, I couldn’t put my name on a list and wait three months. I could probably have waited a week or two, but not much more. I think many people are in the same boat. So until there are three volts at my chevy dealer or 3 leafs at the Nissan dealer, and I can just walk in a write the check and get the car, I probably won’t be able to buy either.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:29 pm)

    Tim in SC,

    I think its like any aficionado site. If this were a muscle car sight, we’d be comparing the Mustang to the Camaro, and all of their intricacies. I think people on this site appreciate the Leaf more than on a muscle car sight, but its more of a debate about what is the better mouse-trap. I wouldn’t take disparaging comments towards the Leaf as harsh as you may be, by calling them “bashing”.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:39 pm)

    jdsv: When were you last in China?

    2010 was my second trip. I’ve hit several major cities and I’ve been to the sticks.

    GM is far better at making cars than BYD, it makes perfect sense that they sell well. Of course, so does VW, which has a massive presence in China.

    The new Buick is relatively nice and you see a fair number of them on the streets. Still, the demand for cars is so great, that you could sell almost anything there. The Japanese have different standards and appear to care more deeply about fuel economy.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:43 pm)

    Tagamet: I know we’ll just have to agree to disagree, but “Cheap” seems pretty far removed from the Volt.

    I didn’t say the Volt was cheap. Nor is it inexpensive.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (10:47 pm)

    Raymondjram: It still looks ugly to me. Maybe because I was born in New York City, not in Tokyo.
    Raymond

    I’m heading back to China and Japan again in few weeks. I’ll take some photos & post. Its amazing what they call “cars”. You would have loved to see the 5′ tall Japanese guys that came to visit us in Michigan and had to climb into one of the guys jacked-up Chevy Avalanche. Then we took them to Hooters.. LOL. They had never seen so many “big” things in one day.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:05 pm)

    evnow: Volt is a compact vehicle and Leaf is mid-size.

    LOL.. sure, they are SO different.

    CHEVY VOLT
    Interior Specifications
    Front Headroom 37.8 in
    Front Hiproom 53.7 in
    Front Legroom 42.1 in
    Front Shoulderroom 56.5 in
    Passenger Capacity 4
    Second Headroom 36.0 in
    Second Hiproom 51.2 in
    Second Legroom 34.1 in
    Second Shoulderroom 53.9 in

    Exterior Specifications
    Curb Weight 3781 lbs
    Height, Overall 56.6 in
    Length, Overall 177.1 in
    Min Ground Clearance N/A in
    Tread Width, Front 61.2 in
    Tread Width, Rear 62.1 in
    Wheelbase 105.7 in
    Width, Max w/o mirrors 70.4 in
    Tires
    Front Tire Size P215/55R17
    Rear Tire Size P215/55R17

    NISSAN LEAF
    Interior Specifications
    Front Headroom 41.2 in
    Front Hiproom 51.5 in
    Front Legroom 42.1 in
    Front Shoulderroom 54.4 in
    Passenger Capacity 5
    Second Headroom 37.3 in
    Second Hiproom 50.0 in
    Second Legroom 31.1 in
    Second Shoulderroom 52.5 in

    Exterior Specifications
    Curb Weight 3366 lbs
    Height, Overall 61.0 in
    Length, Overall 175.0 in
    Min Ground Clearance 6.3 in
    Tread Width, Front 60.6 in
    Tread Width, Rear 60.4 in
    Wheelbase 106.3 in
    Width, Max w/o mirrors 69.7 in
    Tires
    Front Tire Size P205/55R16
    Rear Tire Size P205/55R16


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:14 pm)

    kdawg:
    Hey! I know people that love Aztek’s.    

    walter white does.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:17 pm)

    pjkPA: Mark Z,
    That’s probably the best pic of a Leaf I’ve seen…… and it’s still ugly.    

    The Leaf does look better in person.

    The real treat of the rally was driving on the freeway with Chevy Volts in front and behind. What a great looking car from both directions.

    Maybe Nissan is delaying production to redesign the look of the Leaf.


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:37 pm)

    LauraM: Tagamet: I think that obscenely long commutes like that have a way of “fixing themselves” Either it plays out as you described, or the person decides to make different “choices”. There are days in my part-time job where I spend the whole day driving, but that’s getting the auction’s vehicle “A” to point “B”.
    Welcome back! In a lot of jobs, you can work from home several days a week. But that’s not always an option. And I know people who rent apartments in the city to stay in during the week, to shorten their commute. It’s expensive. Especially given the price of real estate in the city. But it’s worth it to them to actually be at work on time.
    And, of course, it’s a totally different story if you have to drive for work.
    And, thank you.

    A lot of people get work done while they are commuting. Handsfree phone calls (not the poeple texting or putting on makeup).


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    Feb 8th, 2011 (11:41 pm)

    Charlie H:
    2010 was my second trip.I’ve hit several major cities and I’ve been to the sticks.GM is far better at making cars than BYD, it makes perfect sense that they sell well.Of course, so does VW, which has a massive presence in China.The new Buick is relatively nice and you see a fair number of them on the streets.Still, the demand for cars is so great, that you could sell almost anything there.The Japanese have different standards and appear to care more deeply about fuel economy.    

    I agree with all of this, aside from the original implication that GM outsells folks just by putting cars on the lot, regardless of quality. I am likewise unimpressed with BYDs, and while I definitely agree that I wouldn’t care to challenge a US interstate in winter with most Chinese brands, one gilded 1.5-Liter often feels like the next, feels like the next to me. Now I guess they’re all actually 1.3 or 1.4s since the incentive.

    VW continues to surprise me, as well as the number of different bodies Toyota can fit on their van/minivan platforms!

    And in case I don’t come back to this thread, it just so happens that I saw my first Cruze over there back in October, while I spotted my first one here yesterday in the rear-view. I was also still the only soul on my area’s largest GM dealer chain back in November or December. That kind of response certainly doesn’t bode well for roll-outs here.

    NPNS! =D~~


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    Feb 9th, 2011 (2:50 am)

    Oh my god! Comment #53 Gonnzo gets the fact of the Prius wrong! Because it’s a hybrid not an ev though there is of course a plug-in hybrid version coming soon and the other thing he might be have thinking of is that the Prius does have an electric motor though it only let’s you drive at only 25 MPH in electric mode but any higher than that your in gas mode while the Volt can travel at 40 miles for range as long as you want till then at any speed limit before the gas kicks in and finally the Leaf it’s suppose to have a range of 100 miles of electric range but as they say in the real world the range is around 73 miles of range instead of 100 miles but still that’s 33 more miles than the average American as they say or 40 miles on average.


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    Raymondjram

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    Feb 9th, 2011 (5:46 am)

    Tim in SC: Interesting Raymond… so if the LEAF looked like a banged-up taxi cab, then you’d find it more appealing?  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Maybe so, but my genes are American, so even the old Checker Cabs (which I rode in many times) are better looking than the Leaf. BTW, NYC has a large amount of Ford Escape Hybrids as taxis. Look at Earthcam at Times Square and watch the taxis for a while, and you will see them: http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/timessquare/

    At least that city is doing their part. I hope I could see yellow Volt taxis running in NYC in the future.

    Raymond


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    Feb 9th, 2011 (5:51 am)

    pjkPA: Charlie H, I know someone who grew up in China and goes back every year to visit family… he said the Chinese like the Buicks because they are so roomy. handle rough roads better and last long. He said that the chinese buy one car per family and usually drive on bad roads. They usually have all the family in the car. I have a Buick that is going on 10 years old now… 100K miles and looks and runs quieter and smoother than a lot of brand new cars I’ve driven in. It has been extremely reliable. $124 in total repairs … one bushing from hitting a huge pot hole and a water pump that I put in myself in a couple hours for $22. It still has it’s original stainless steel exhaust and no rust galvanized body. It took me a while to buy a Buick.. after 10 years I can say I’m very pleased I bought it.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    I love my 1995 Buick Regal for its durability, too. And after 16 years, I wish to change it for the Chevy Volt. But GM must try to convert the Buick line with Voltec also. That is why many other members want GM to revive the Buick Electra model, because it was one of Buick’s best models, and the name is fitting. If I could decide, I would take the new Buick LaCrosse and convert that model to the Electra.

    Raymond


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    koz

     

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    Feb 9th, 2011 (7:44 am)

    Suposedly Nissan shipped more 980 Leafs in Japan by the end of January as their is a government incentive expiring in April. Maybe this can be a wakeup call for our slumbering leaders. Change our federal PEV incentive program to 1M total vehicles of any manufacturer with minimum 50% made in USA content. Start tapering the per vehicle incentive from $7500 to $5000 in 2014 and then to $2500 for 2016 on for another 500k vehicles. This will get primarliy american made PEVs on the road the fastest and give us the best shot of achieving the Presidents goal of 1M PEVs by 2015

    If we are going to have a national incentive, we should clearly define the intended goals and maximize the incentive structure to best entice the achievement of the goals.


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    scottf200

     

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    Feb 9th, 2011 (9:12 am)

    evnow:
    Better check EPA ratings, Volt is a compact vehicle and Leaf is mid-size.

    I was pretty sure Leaf is “mid-size” simply because it is taller and thus has more volume. Footprint is virtually the same.


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    Feb 9th, 2011 (9:12 am)

    Jackson: Funny, I have that same instrument (Scanguage). You ought to see the mileage my 2009 Honda Fit gets while rolling downhill!
    After all this time, you simply won’t understand the difference between getting high mpg all the time vs near-zero mpg most of the time? Amazing, though hardly surprising.

    Do whatever it takes to distract from purpose, eh? Whatever. I’ve developed a tolerance for the spin & insults. They confirm expectations are not being met; otherwise, the response would be about them instead.

    Purpose for the new technologies is to replace traditional vehicles with something cleaner and more efficient. And there’s only one way to fulfill that purpose: SALES.

    You can point out whatever fancy feature you want. In the end though, if it doesn’t result in a sale, what difference did it actually make?

    .


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    Charlie H

     

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    Feb 9th, 2011 (9:14 am)

    jdsv: And in case I don’t come back to this thread, it just so happens that I saw my first Cruze over there back in October, while I spotted my first one here yesterday in the rear-view.

    Hah! I also first saw a Cruze in China. Back towards March of 2010. In fact, I saw three in two different cities. It was somewhat maddening to find them all over the world in early 2010 when GM wouldn’t deliver them here until Fall.


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    Feb 9th, 2011 (9:19 am)

    koz: Maybe this can be a wakeup call for our slumbering leaders. Change our federal PEV incentive program to 1M total vehicles of any manufacturer with minimum 50% made in USA content. Start tapering the per vehicle incentive from $7500 to $5000 in 2014 and then to $2500 for 2016 on for another 500k vehicles.

    We’ve got to stop having an alternative vehicle policy, in fact an energy policy generally, that’s just carrots. There must be some stick. There would be little need for tax rebates on EVs, solar, geothermal, wind, etc, if we started taxing fossil fuels for their real costs.


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    Jim I

     

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    Feb 9th, 2011 (10:03 am)

    CorvetteGuy:
    At MSRP there is about $1800 profit. Not a lot. So, if GM gives each dealer 17 cars for the year, then they will make enough to pay back the $30,000 each dealer had to give up front for parts, tools, training and the demo unit.    

    ==================================

    So is the dealership where you work still adding on a pricing “Premium” for the Volt?


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    MICHIGAN GUY

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    Feb 9th, 2011 (10:12 am)

    pjkPA: Charlie H,
    I know someone who grew up in China and goes back every year to visit family… he said the Chinese like the Buicks because they are so roomy. handle rough roads better and last long. He said that the chinese buy one car per family and usually drive on bad roads. They usually have all the family in the car.I have a Buick that is going on 10 years old now… 100K miles and looks and runs quieter and smoother than a lot of brand new cars I’ve driven in. It has been extremely reliable. $124 in total repairs … one bushing from hitting a huge pot hole and a water pump that I put in myself in a couple hours for $22. It still has it’s original stainless steel exhaust and no rust galvanized body. It took me a while to buy a Buick.. after 10 years I can say I’m very pleased I bought it.    

    The Chinese also have a long memory. Before Mao and the communists took over and ruined the country their Emperor drove Buicks. They respect that. Also Buick is probably one of the best brands in the world today. GM put a lot of attention into the Buick and it shows.

    Also the Chinese mind, with regard to cars, is essentially a clean slate – most Chinese never having owned a car before – so they are going over the choices with a fine tooth comb and choosing the one that has the best quality and features for the money. GM, particularly Buick, is fitting the bill for them more than any other car company.


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    Jackson

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    Feb 9th, 2011 (2:36 pm)

    This is late in an old thread, so I’m going to rip you a new one. No one should care. I know it won’t do a thing for you, but it might make me feel better.

    Do whatever it takes to distract from purpose, eh? Whatever.

    This phrase would be an accurate summation of your entire history and sole purpose on this site.

    I’ve developed a tolerance for the spin & insults.

    You are the spin-master here. You are deserving of far more insult than you receive.

    They confirm expectations are not being met; otherwise, the response would be about them instead.

    They confirm only that you are an unwanted, single-minded asshole; always trying to sell stink bombs at a flower show. As for the Volt meeting expectations, how long has the Volt been out? Ask the few owners (here), and I don’t think you’ll find much dissatisfaction.

    Purpose for the new technologies is to replace traditional vehicles with something cleaner and more efficient. And there’s only one way to fulfill that purpose: SALES.

    It requires time to manufacture vehicles and to sell them. How long have Prii been manufactured and sold? You’re the expert. Was it longer than two months? Did the Prius have any meaningful competition over most of it’s sales history?

    The transparency of your perpetual Volt dismissal can be shown as follows: “Purpose for the new [Prius] technologies is to replace traditional vehicles with something cleaner and more efficient.” I’ll let you do your own math. How many Priuses have been sold, in all? During the same period, how many conventional, non-hybrid cars were sold? What is the proportion of Prius sales vs all others in it’s size segment? What? It isn’t even 50%? Is it even 5%? Well, the Prius must be a complete flop, then. Let’s not waste any more time in Prius development, manufacture, or SALES. How dare Toyota distract us like this! Your own criteria, by your own lights, would also run against the Prius itself.

    You can point out whatever fancy feature you want. In the end though, if it doesn’t result in a sale, what difference did it actually make?

    I am actually not very much for many of the “fancy features” the Volt offers. I could do with a lot less on the dash. If you’re talking about basic driveline components, you’re as cluelessly useless as I have always thought.

    You are certainly not trustworthy enough to show a Scanguage picture (over and over), and misrepresent what it’s showing. To spell it out for you, my point in observing:

    Funny, I have that same instrument (Scanguage). You ought to see the mileage my 2009 Honda Fit gets while rolling downhill!

    … is to show that with no way to certify the chain of evidence, posting it’s results is in no way “proof” of anything. The Scanguage shows instantaneous results for mpg, and then it is only reporting what the onboard computer thinks. (When looking at your picture, rpm and running temperature are kind of low for a vehicle moving above side-street speeds, aren’t they?) Here is where the consistent history of your insulting and spinning and dismissing and clueless devotion to your favorite car let you down. There is a great deal more than a pinch of salt to go with your endless put downs.

    Since you’ve been here:

    The Volt went from “vaporware” to reality.

    The Volt went from an unknown quantity to owners’ hands.

    Initial sales for the Volt are at least comparable to the Prius sales during the same period in it’s early history.

    If you have always been wrong about the Volt, it will still be a long time before it’s sales surpass all historic Prius sales; it’s simply a question of years vs years. For you to insist on overall sales as a valid criteria for comparison NOW shows just how cynical your arguments are, and far you are from reality you have come.

    .


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    Feb 10th, 2011 (2:08 pm)

    Jackson: This is late in an old thread, so I’m going to rip you a new one.

    If that makes the situation easier to deal with, go ahead. Now being aware of the complexities from efficiency & emissions, that’s probably the fastest way to get over the past anyway.

    SALES are what measure progress. That’s what makes a difference.

    All of the plug-in vehicles will be judged that same way, especially since most automakers already had extensive motor & battery expertise prior to the recent rollouts. And there is work remaining still…

    2013 a model of Volt with a PZEV emission-rating is expected to be available.

    2015 the next generation of Volt featuring a more efficienct engine and a much lower price is expected to be available.

    .


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    Bedtime for Gonnzo

     

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    Feb 10th, 2011 (5:18 pm)

    Who’s this john goof? Like that skanky neighbor down the street–never gets invited to anything for good reason.


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    john1701a

     

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    Feb 10th, 2011 (5:43 pm)

    Bedtime for Gonnzo: Who’s this john goof? Like that skanky neighbor down the street–never gets invited to anything for good reason.

    I’m a frequent poster on record for stating concerns that the price, efficiency, and range targets were unrealistic for initial rollout… too little, too slowly… over-promise, under-deliver. Being vindicated comes with intense emotion… from those who disagreed with me in the past.

    $30,000 was a big hope. With a price like that, or even a few thousand more, it could reach a wide market. I argued for years saying that wasn’t realistic. Finding out the intial price was significantly higher really upset those who had argued that wouldn’t happen.

    50 MPG after depletion never made any sense. If that could actually be delivered by the end of 2010, it would be a competitive choice by offering a second model with a tiny battery-pack. I stated it would actually be about 38 MPG. Sure enough, the EPA confirmed it.

    40 MILE range year-round was the claim. I repeatedly pointed out how that couldn’t be possible, pointing out how demanding use of the heater is. And we all know how that played out. Owners have overwhelming confirmed a range reduction from cold weather driving.

    In short, we’re in an awkward position now. Frustration of having learned the hard way must be vented before being able to move on. And of course, shooting the messenger is often an effective release.

    .