The Chevrolet Volt and Nissan LEAF rely heavily on government incentives to help bolster sales.
There is a $7500 federal tax credit available to offset the purchase price of these cars. This credit currently applies to the first 250,000 units of each automakers plugin vehicles with large batteries of at least 16 kwh in size. To obtain the credit, individuals with sufficient tax liability must report their purchase to the IRS.
According to a government audit, however, about 20% of the plugin tax credits claimed so far are fraudulent.
The audit indicates that most of the fraudulent claims for the tax credit were requested for gas-powered cars that don’t qualify such as the Hyundai Sonata and Buick Enclave.
The total number of claies for the first seven month of 2010 was 4400 and amounted to $33 million in fraudulent credits.
“While IRS management did take corrective actions to reduce erroneous claims when TIGTA brought these process weaknesses to its attention, more clearly needs to be done,” said J. Russell George, the inspector general.
The auditor recommnedat an obvious solution was to automatically reject claims for ineligible cars. The IRS, however, did not agree with this strategy as they felt it would reduce the rate at which incoming returns could be handled.
Instead, the recommended dealing with the fraudulent requests later on.
The IRS has already moved to recover the money that was inappropriately received.
“The IRS took immediate action to put additional protections in place to stop improper vehicle payments,” said IRS spokesman J. Russell George. “We are also taking steps to recapture the credits people erroneously claimed.”
There is a new proposal in congress to extended these credits up to 500,000 vehicles per automaker and to allow the federal credit to be received by owners at the point of purchase.
Source (Detroit Free Press)
+61
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:35 am)How about they stop giving US taxpayer money for a 100% imported foreign nissan leaf. HOw is that helping our economy,its just subsidizing our competition. It would be a cold day in hell before japan would subsidize an american made car. their market is for all intents and purposes is closed.
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:35 am)The Certificate of Title for the Volt arrived and shows the date first sold in 2010 but the expiration date of the registration is January 2. Imagine explaining that to the IRS agent sitting next to the police officer who pulls me over to the side of the road when the license plate shows JAN instead of DEC.
+6
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:16 am)Lyle’s intro says, “There is a new proposal in congress to extended these credits up to 500,000 vehicles per automaker and to allow the federal credit to be received by owners at the point of purchase.”
I sincerely hope these few abuses don’t give dissenting congressmen enough leverage to either kill or seriously water down this new proposal! We should stay alert to its status and be prepared to write, email and/or phone our congressmen in support of it at a strategic time to do so.
.
+9
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:21 am)I did my taxes last night. I really wanted that tax credit for the Volt, but I have to buy one first.
+47
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:25 am)And why are we surprised by this?
The IRS has so many rules, that even they can’t understand them, let alone be able to fix or enforce them!!!
It is time for a flat tax.
JMHO
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:31 am)Hmmm – Can’t run a simple ( but uneconomic ) rebate program and they want to take over your health care. Right on Greeniacs!!!!
+5
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:45 am)I don’t know if it’s fraud so much as stupidity… I can well imagine auto salesmen and auto buyers stpid enough that they don’t realize the rebate is intended specifically for EVs, not vehicles generally.
Remember what P.T.Barnum said.
+14
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:47 am)There’s no indication in any article on this subject that the government can’t run the program. It’s the people trying to use the program that are either committing fraud – and getting caught – or aren’t bright enough to figure out what the program is for.
But don’t let the facts disturb your biases.
+17
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:48 am)It is time for the Fair Tax!
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:51 am)Taxes should only be used to run the government not to force change.
-1
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:56 am)Let me see they paid out 33 million that they should not have, right? And you don’t see anything that says ” government can’t run the program” Take another look I think you can see it. LOL ;>)
+4
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:13 am)Jim I,
Actually… I believe it is Congress that makes the rules for the IRS.
It is their( IRS) job to enforce them.
Perhaps a call to your favorite Congress person is where one should start to “fix the problem.”
+6
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:35 am)“The auditor recommended an obvious solution was to automatically reject claims for ineligible cars. The IRS, however, did not agree with this strategy as they felt it would reduce the rate at which incoming returns could be handled.”
This sounds incredible. Why can’t the IRS dedicate a group of agents who only deal with the plug-in tax credit program who can determine validity? When an agent gets a return claiming the plug-in tax credit then the return would be handed over to the plug-in tax credit group. How would this slow things down?
+36
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:44 am)Randy @ 1 says:
“How about they stop giving US taxpayer money for a 100% imported foreign nissan leaf. HOw is that helping our economy,its just subsidizing our competition. It would be a cold day in hell before japan would subsidize an american made car. their market is for all intents and purposes is closed.”
————————————————————————
Right on Randy! Glad you got to say it on the 1st comment. I find it simply unbelievable that our government is willing to take our tax money (or borrowed money) and ship it to a foreign country as “incentive.” Are they nuts?
We have massive unemployment in this country; many people are suffering badly; and our government is betraying us by trying to play fair when no other government in the world would do such a foolish thing.
The Japanese are surely laughing at us behind our backs for supporting their car industry while they have done everything in their power to destroy ours.
+17
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:51 am)Charlie,
As a long time fed, I can tell you that you are right 99% of the time if you assume the feds cannot run a program. I can tell stories that would make your blood boil about the stupidity of fed programs. The public only sees the tip of the iceberg. You should see what is under the surface.
As far as this program goes, we could all design a program that would work. Lets see, maybe check VIN numbers before cutting a check. The govt has a ton of information but they cannot get at it. Information technology incompetence is rampant with the feds
Anyway, just putting in my two cents to warn anyone about defending the feds on just about any program. Things are actually worse then they seem.
Am I cynical, yes. But I have the evidence in front of me every day.
As Lily Tomlin said…
“No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up.” – Lily Tomlin
+6
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:52 am)The South Koreans, on the other hand, are delighted that we’re helping them to dominate the battery industry.
+8
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:55 am)I think there should be a stipulation that the Car buyer has to keep the car or pay the Tax Credit Back. I saw several people on ebay who bought the car and sold it shortly after. This way they get the Tax credit, but dont keep the volt. This is fraudulent in my opinion too. Like the homebuyer credit – you must physically live in the home for 3 years. I think you should be required to Keep and drive the car to keep the Credit.
+16
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:00 am)The way to seal the leak on EV tax abuse claims is to process at time of sale. Many here at gm volt dot com have been calling for this for 2 years now. Instant process does two things. It ensures credits are going where they were designed to go. And it enables the EV buyer to spend less up front.
=D-Volt
+13
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:03 am)An easy and fair way to handle this is to make the credits eligible only for imported cars that come from countries with comparable credits on our exports. Since there aren’t any at least we’re treating everyone the same.
Also if these credits were done at the dealer they wouldn’t have fraudulent claims.
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:22 am)Everyone agrees with you. However, since we live in a democracy, this leaves wide open the question of what is meant by “running the government”. Basically what is appropriate for the government to do is what the elected representatives say it should do. Whether you personally agree with their choices is beside the point. No obvious reason why you should arrogate to yourself the authority to be the final arbiter of this question.
In the tax code we have all manner of expenditures designed to implement policy choices. Among these would be mortgage deductions, Social Security tax exclusions, Medicare tax exclusions, capital gains rates, oil and gas tax credits, deductions for dependent children, and exclusions for health care benefits. The list goes on and on an on. Picking one relatively small and meaningless exclusion out of the ocean of special tax treatments for special comment is ridiculous.
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:25 am)Maybe I’m simplifying too much, but couldn’t have the IRS filtered the requests based on dates since the Volt and Leaf weren’t for sale until December? The exception is the Tesla, But how many of those have been sold? A bit over a thousand? That’s not anywhere the 4400 quoted in the article.
I guess that there aren’t too many employees who are EV fans at the IRS who would have figured out this simple math earlier.
-6
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:33 am)How about we realize it’s a global market and all car companies are global! Just be happy the US is supporting the electrification of the auto…finally….and by the way, the Nissan Leaf will also be built here in the good ol USA…let’s move on now and get over this ridiculous territorial non-sense!
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:37 am)Although I agree 110%, you do know that we’d then have to forgo the $7500 altogether and all the other social engineering, er, ahem, I mean exemptions, that are currently in place? What, no increase in gas tax to promote stuff? No home mortgage deductions? No support of foreign products? boy, I guess I really *am* a child of the ’60′s.
I guess I support the flat tax over the fair tax because the prebate element of the fair tax sounds like room for the same old mischief.
JMO (and here we go again)(lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:39 am)Hey at least you have systems in place to catch it! Move to Canada and see what happens when 33 million goes to the wrong people… NOTHING
So yes while this sucks, there is a system in place to fix it. Keep up the good work and keep your taxes as low as you can. I’ve lived in both country’s and its a scary sight here up North
+5
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:43 am)The current tax code is way too complex. If we had a simple income or profit x tax rate = tax paid with no deductions or credits we would probably save enough on fraud and unfairness that we could probably lower the tax rate and cut IRS expense dramatically as well, JMO.
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:45 am)At least they are building a plant in Michigan to provide battery cells. Highly automated, it doesn’t employ many but it’s manufactured in the US.
-1
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:46 am)This could be a slippery slope. When a government plan, program, or policy becomes law. The first thing that happens is the people who are effected look for ways to maximize their gain. One way around the Fair Tax is to buy, sell, and trade under the table. Or across the border. This results in the need for a government run mega-bureaucracy installed to determine, locate, prosecute, fine, and claim unpaid purchasing tax.
Wouldn’t it be better to go with a modest sales tax of %5 and tier tax personal income? This way the folks who spend very little (because they have no money) are pretty much untapped. The intermediate income earners pay their fair share of purchasing tax, but are relieved by the lower tiered income tax. High income earners will pay a high tier tax with no loopholes or write offs. They will buy their yachts and million dollar homes and pay accordingly, 5% on each.
Think things out before jumping on board.
NPNS
-1
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:52 am)And the debt just keep on growing fast.
Really ? How so ?
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:55 am)Jim I,
I am in complete agreement.
Many wouldn’t like the loss of income from the govt. doll but the country would ultimately be better off! IMHO
TAG- 60′s children are todays geniuses! : )
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:59 am)Randy,
The taxpayers will not be sending any more money out of the Country for foreign oil. That money can go from person to person and be used many times over to buy goods and services within the USA. That is how helping peole buy the Nissan Leaf helps our economy. You can help too by getting rid of gas guzzlers and buy an electric. Would I prefer we bought American Electrics…of course..but even foreign electrics help the US economy. We are strangleing ourselves every day buying foreign oil and exporting American dollars to people who hate us.
Take Care, TED
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:59 am)Some notes from the story…
nearly 13,000 taxpayers erroneously claimed about $33 million in credits for plug-in electric and alternative vehicles during the first six months of 2010. (Thats a pretty high number)
some car owners tried to claim the $7,500 credit for their Hummer H3, Dodge Durango or Cadillac Escalade. Someone claimed it for a golf cart. (Hummer???)
The report said some IRS employees erroneously claimed the credits. (Now thats funny, the IRS guys are even cheating).
The inspector general found that 29 prisoners received $49,926 in vehicle credits even though they were incarcerated throughout 2009. (What, can’t buy a car from prison, thats not fair)
+4
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:05 am)I had always thought that the word “wizen” implied old and wise. Now I find out that it refers to what I’m doing in the middle of the night. (lol).
Although I try to be an optimist, it would take SO many vested interests being dislodged to enact a flat tax, that it’s hard to imagine getting it enacted. Then again, the last election cycle was pretty amazing…
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:11 am)Dave K.,
I agreed with your comment, but did you *have* to add the “shot” at the end? Comment grade:A+ Citizenship grade (remember those?) C-
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:13 am)=============================
The tax code has been used for decades to force social change. And that is simply wrong….
You are correct in that it is Congress that makes the laws, but it is the job of the IRS to implement the regulations. And, the IRS makes all kinds of interpretations of the laws passed by Congress.
The main problem is that Congress uses the tax code to give “credits” (read that as presents) to some people (read that as people that donate to their campaign funds). So they do not want a flat tax, because it limits how they can wrangle the system. And I have called my local Congressmen and Senators on this. They are very polite and then tell me how it is such a complex subject……….. Golly Gee, I know I am just a hick from Youngstown, Ohio, but that really gets my goat (read that as llama!!!
)
JMHO
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:26 am)Jim I,
Taking it another step beyond “interest groups” and/or PAC’s, can you imagine how powerful the IRS itself is in lobbying against laws that would limit (or eliminate) their power!
Then again, think of the thousands of lobbyists, tax preparers, tax attorneys, (I could go on and on) that would be put out of gainful employment. Even our prisons would lose business housing all those “tax cheats”.
Sounds pretty radical… and wonderful.
Be well,
Tagamet
/I guess DonC is sleeping in today (g). No, wait, I think he has yoga class early today.
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:27 am)So are you saying that Canada isn’t a democracy, that the people are powerless to stop it, or that the people just don’t care? There’s shenanigans everywhere, in every country, in every culture, always were and always will be. No need to single out a place in particular as worse than the rest.
+4
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:36 am)Ill never be happy the US is supporting foreign competition with my tax money so they can kick the snot out of our auto industry. I hope your kids can say do you want fries with that burger.
+6
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:43 am)==================================
The problem I have with your logic is that sales taxes would actually hurt the low income people the most, as it would be on all purchases. Plus our buddies in Washington, DC would not use it to bring down the debt. They would just look at is as a method to spend more.
A flat tax with just a few income brackets would make the most sense and be the easiest to implement. The lowest income people would pay no tax. And with lower tax rates, we would not need all the deductions and credits, etc. Add to that a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution, and we might be able to save this great nation for our future generations.
JMHO
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:47 am)Ohhhhhhh!!!!
Damn hommie, you hit it right on the head!!!
+10000000000.99
Dude, you are SOOOOO right. Being an IT dude for gubbment, I can tell you it’s departmental “Policies” and mandated personal info security that halts this.
I don’t know how many times I hear……”we can’t grant you access to that kind of data”.
WTF?!?!?!?! we all work for the same team!!!
+9
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:53 am)You know, i’m not the brightest here but I at least would be able to know that anything that is not an EV or PHV wouldn’t qualify. IMHO, I don’t think it’s a mistake or ignorance OR stupidity on the part of the person filing for the tax credit. I think it’s purposefully enacted FRAUD! Those that are caught should be fined the same amount as what they were trying to claim PLUS the time and effort valued in $$$ to pursue this correction.
/but that’s just me.
+12
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:54 am)This is why the 7500 must be done at the dealer at time of buying and not at home with your six-pack of beer and TurboTax looming blurrily in your eyes…
+4
Feb 4th, 2011 (11:57 am)I TOTALLY AGREEE!!!!…………………………………………with the 6pack.
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:02 pm)re: Post #1 Randy
“How about they stop giving US taxpayer money for a 100% imported foreign nissan leaf. HOw is that helping our economy,its just subsidizing our competition. It would be a cold day in hell before japan would subsidize an american made car. their market is for all intents and purposes is closed.”
TOTALLY AGREE!!
….AND LYLE SHOULD POST HOW MUCH A VOLT WILL COST IN JAPAN! GERMANY AND KOREA!
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:02 pm)Phony tax credit claims. It’s obvious the problem is simple. The IRS is using almost an honor system and taking the taxpayer’s word that they are entitled to a tax credit but the taxpayers were so ignorant they claimed ineligible car purchases. The solution is easy. Just require some sort of documentation, like the wage 1099s, to verify the eligibility. These would come from the dealer and only be issued for the correct cars (no more Hummers!). Somebody has to make a total count to get the figure of the 200,000 limit anyway, so these two accountings could go together.
OT-I like that VOLT model car recently mentioned. Think I’ll get one.
BIG BTRY
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:06 pm)That is already being done now to avoid the current income tax system.
This is already in place in 45 states to collect state sales taxes.
Let me refer back to your quote: This could be a slippery slope. When a government plan, program, or policy becomes law. The first thing that happens is the people who are effected look for ways to maximize their gain. One way around the YOUR Tax is to buy, sell, and trade under the table.
Try not to be an ass, I have been following the Fair Tax Proposal for 10+ years. Maybe you should do some research on the subject before you comment. Their website has several short video clips explaining the proposal and addressing concerns. If you would take some time to check it out, you will probably change your mind and “jump on board”!
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:08 pm)Depends on what is considered “Fair”, don’t you think. Fair or Flat Tax. Either one would work better than the mess we have now. Just depends on how it is written and what it allows. New taxation law should be clear, concise and not amendable. Either keep it like it is or repeal it. Otherwise our “ruling class” lawmakers will screw it around to their (and their friend’s) benefit.
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:13 pm)No, not quite that simple. Congress passes laws, the President signs the laws then the appropriate agency writes the “regulations” that enforce the law. Congress has little to nothing to do with the regulations and very seldom forces any changes once they are written. Congress, and the President, leaves the governing to the bureaucrats. Therefore not doing their jobs as defined by the Constitution.
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:21 pm)“Our auto industry” sure made some bad decisions in the past. Now, they have to compete globally as do we all. Try to be happy at the fact that even China and Japan are on the same track of electrifying the auto…now go out and have a turkey burger and sweet potato fries!
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:21 pm)John @41 has the best idea. It’s a win-win-win.
win 1 – the buyer get’s the immediate effect of the rebate by lowering the price at which they finance the car(s)
win 2 – this eliminates the buyer from the responsibility and is processed by a CPA/financial expert.
win 3 – you can drink the 6pack guilt free!!!
/don’t give me any +1′s, give them to John @41, he thought it up. I just elaborated a little.
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:22 pm)I agree.
I would take either one over the current system. I prefer the proposal that is called the “Fair Tax” (not the best name). I use to prefer a flat tax or a tiered tax with no deductions until I spent some time looking at the “Fair Tax”.
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:22 pm)Agreed, but some of the culprits are already IN prison! That’s right, people in prison applied for and were granted the tax credit. Same thing happened with all the rebate programs e.g. cash for clunkers. And let’s not forget the people who are DEAD who got the money.
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:27 pm)Japan will see to it that the volt cost twice in japan what it does here in the states, that should out a damper on most sales,as they do with all imported cars,same with south korea.
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:34 pm)Dave K.,
There is one thing we all can count on. If, and that is a really big if, the tax laws are changed to a “fair”, “flat” or “sales” tax you can bet your last tax dollar the government will screw it up. It will not end up being simple, fair or flat. I just do not “trust” our government to do what is truly right for the American people. If they are doing the “right thing”, then why is the economy and everything else so screwed up. And why so much waste and fraud if not planned that way? I just wonder where would we find a lot of this waste and fraud if it could be completely tracked back to the true source. We might be surprised.
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:37 pm)Randy,
Unless you would prefer a trade war, the days of domestic auto industry protection have gone the way of the dinosaur. Besides, once the Leaf is produced in Tennessee, the domestic content might not be that different than the Volt.
+7
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:38 pm)Japan and south korea are perfectly happy to let the USA spent hundreds of billions on R&D to build the best fighter jets and war machines in the world to defend them against their enemies for free ,while they spend their R&D on autos and electronics to dominate the world market and push up the jobless rate in america. We will borrow money from japan to give it back as a nissan rebate ,its insane. We already borrowed 877 billion from japan. Check out how great our economy is doing with these destructive economic policies.
http://www.usdebtclock.org
+7
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:45 pm)I dont see japan or south korea running into any WTO problems for doubling the cost of imported cars and truck with costly safety inspections and other nonsense so why should the US not do the same. It time we stop letting other countries piss on us when it comes to trade but expect us to defend them with our military for free.
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:53 pm)#8
Yeah, right. +1
+5
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:55 pm)#18
Right on brother! +1
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (12:57 pm)Although I agree with you, change *has* to take place through the govt. The fewer moving parts a new law has, I think that it’s tougher to screw up. Until we start have them pass laws that are 10 pages long instead of 2000 pages long, mischief (or worse) will take place. Much of the evil is done by the regulators who *implement* the laws – writing the rules through which the laws are implemented. The less there is in the law – the simpler it is – the less rope we give the regulators.
Maybe passing a balanced budget amendment is the only way to manage the top dogs at this point, but whatever we do, we have to do it per the constitution.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Feb 4th, 2011 (1:06 pm)If you really want to slow this beast down, you should be looking at entitlements. Cutting or eliminating subsidies is a good start, but you won’t notice an effect on the Debt Clock without addressing entitlements.
Be well,
Tagamet
+5
Feb 4th, 2011 (1:14 pm)Giving $7500 to foreign competition is worse than any entitlements ,ill be OK with this when Japan sells volts imported from the US for 41000 and give japanese rebate of $7500 on it.Dont hold you breath waiting for that.
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (1:20 pm)I suspect that your well-developed sense of fairness is clouding your reasoning. The way I read your post is “If Japan played fair, I’d be ok that the US is going broke through entitlement spending”.
I *agree* that Japan doesn’t play fair with trade, and that something should be done about that (put Donald Trump in charge of trade policy), but what good does that do us if we keep selling our future to China? The money involved in the tax credit to *EVERYONE* amounts to a butterfly f@rt in a tornado. Entitlements *are* the tornado. JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (1:37 pm)#59 Tagament:
“but whatever we do, we have to do it per the constitution.”
—————————–
What a refreshing change that would be for a legislative, administrative and judicial branch of our government to “finally” pay strict attention the the Constitution and what it actually says and not what they want it to say at the time. Somehow I just don’t see this happening unless we “clean house” much deeper than was done in November. That was just a slight adjustment compared to what needs to take place. Of course, this is just my opinion. Some Americans, although wrong, believe we are on the right course and nothing needs to be done but more of the same. Pity us.
+4
Feb 4th, 2011 (1:39 pm)Probably more along the lines of “Quieres Potatas fritas con su hamburgesa”
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (1:46 pm)I just don’t agree that anyone is “entitled” to any government (our tax) money just because they live in the country. No one is entitled to anything but “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. More or less today. Once we get over the entitlement snags set up as a payment system to control the population and get them to vote the way government wants them to, then maybe we can save some money and clear up a lot of debt. Bad government passing bad laws that pass out our hard earned money should not entitle anyone to anything. IMO.
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (1:55 pm)I agree that if we are to have a $7500 “rebate” it should be turned into a $7500 “credit” issued at the time of purchase and the customer should be required to own the vehicle for a minimum of one year from the date of purchase, else the credit should be paid back to the government (us) either in its entirety or pro-rated by the number of months the vechicle was owned.
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:04 pm)My *goodness*, you sound just like John Galt! (g). I think that it’s incredible that that was written in the ’50′s and we *still* don’t get it.
And you’re right about approaching the tipping point where the number of people at the govt teat is about what a politician needs to get elected. At that point we’re sunk. I *do* think that we made substantial progress last Nov and in 2012 will do some more.
As always, JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:14 pm)How can 20% of the credits claimed so far be fraudulent, if they had 4400 claims in 2010 that applied for a credit and the cars didn’t exist? Now we’re in 2011 and we’ve sold less than 1000 vehicles.
I guess I don’t get the math here.
join thE REVolution
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:15 pm)Agree completely. Too bad this is so politically unpopular. It makes the most sense, and is, well, FAIR!
join thE REVolution
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:18 pm)Wait a minute! The comment immediately before this one, you denounced entitlements! Why are we “entitled” to $7500 of our neighbor’s money to buy a Volt? Hmmm???? (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:34 pm)Its kind of like “Its the government, stupid”. Not calling you stupid, just the government. Maybe I should have reversed the position of the word government and stupid, but it sounded better the way I expressed it. And we are nothing if we are not a country of “feel good” people.
I am ready for another topic. This one is getting too “political”, is that the right word for the path this subject has taken. I contributed to it, I know. But you can regret saying some things sometimes. Can’t you? Not that they weren’t true or not that I didn’t believe what I said. I’m just saying……
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:41 pm)Not that I took both sides of the question, Tag, but I did say that “if we are to have a $7500 rebate” etc, etc. I did not say I liked the idea. Even if I were to agree it is a good thing, which I am not saying I don’t, I can understand the “need” for one. It is a “complex” concept, just like many things in life. You have to pick and choose from the flowers of life and some come up weeds in your hand. Some come up roses or daises while others contain a small bee that sting the dickens out of your nose. Right now we are getting stung and stung good. It feels more like the whole damn garden is being rammed up our collective butts.
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:41 pm)And that’s exactly what Obama asked for a week ago…
http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/21782
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:45 pm)Well, the invalid claims were not FOR Volts. Otherwise, they’d be valid claims, no? I’m worried that this stuff is starting to MAKE sense to me (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
/Note to self: Check your meds.
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:53 pm)So we are guaranteed “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of…(Fill in whatever the populous wants in order to get their vote).
Naw. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:53 pm)Tag, and others:
This is the first time I have commented this much in nearly a year. I don’t want to sound like a “gummed up trashing machine”, but maybe I have. If you know how one of those must sound, maybe you get what I mean.
I just want us all to have a Volt or some other vehicle that will help us get off the oil merry-go-round. I don’t like government “giving” us anything, especially when there are strings attached. And there are always strings attached.
I can afford the Volt or Leaf without the rebate or tax credit. Others cannot afford it and maybe they should purchase a Cruze. But, if the money is there for the taking, and it will be taken, then I suppose it should go to the first come first served, in theory anyway. I don’t know if I will purchase a Volt or Leaf while the money is available. Who knows. I would buy one today if either were available in my state. I would likely buy both.
Good luck to all. And forgive me if I came across too harsh or strident. I am sorry if I did.
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:54 pm)Well that’s my point… and 4,000 invalid claims is way more than 20% of all Volt and Leaf sales… to say 20% of the claims filed for plug-ins are falsified seems like a gross understatement… If 1,000 volts and leafs were sold in 2010, then there would be at least 75% of claims for the credit being false.
join thE REVolution
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:56 pm)N Riley,
Seems like the topic was fraud in a govt program. How redundant is that??? (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (2:58 pm)Are you saying we pay tax on new items only? Or on all items? On just made in America items?
The problems I see with this are: Who is to say something is “new” or not. How about selling cars with 500 demo miles as “used” ALL THE TIME. Second, if I know uncle Sam will tax my new boat at 32%. Why not have one hauled over from Mexico. Better yet, make everything in Mexico so American’s can circumvent the only tax they need to pay in this country. I would seriously reconsider buying ANYTHING new. What will happen to the manufacture of new products. No one wants new items. We need a fair, across the board, sales tax of 5%. With a tiered income tax of 0-33% depending on W-2 income. Including stock dividends and bond gains.
NPNS
Feb 4th, 2011 (3:21 pm)ClarksonCote,
OIC. Maybe *orders* placed on or before 12/31/2010 count? Not being a person directly effected, I haven’t read the tax credit law, and I probably wouldn’t understand it too well if I had.
One of our members – Michael – I THINK ordered before Christmas. Maybe he’ll chime in about whether it is credited to 2010 or 2011.
Stay tuned, DonC will be here sooner or later.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (3:21 pm)Actually, the FairTax is gaining more political support. Currently it has 66 sponsors and co-sponsors in the House and Senate. That is not nearly enough, but more than any other alternative income tax proposal.
It takes pressure from the voters to get more political support.
First step, go the website FairTax and watch the video clips (most are less than 2 minutes). They discuss the proposal and address some of the concerns. More details are available on their website and in several publications. Get involved with your local FairTax group or start your own.
Then contact your Representative and Senators. Let them know you support the FairTax, and that if they want your vote, then they will too.
Make April 15th just another day!
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (3:24 pm)OT but timely (Volt Sunday Super Bowl ad): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEzWNj2LHMY
Question to GM Stockholders: Is this 30 sec ad worth $3 million? (I think so, how about you?)
.
Feb 4th, 2011 (3:32 pm)nasaman,
Hey Nasaman! I posted that in the forums 3 hours ago. It’s been getting a few negative responses.
#951 Picking up in NY next Sat. Then on to Fort Lauderdale.
Feb 4th, 2011 (3:38 pm)Upcoming Webinar: How the FairTax lowers the cost of manufacturing and production: A snapshot of the U.S. Auto Industry
When: Thursday, March 24, 2011
Time: 8 p.m. Eastern, 7 p.m. Central, 6 p.m. Mountain, 5 p.m. Pacific
Where: At your personal computer wherever you are.
Why: To provide an interactive forum for people who cannot get to local meetings to learn about the FairTax and to present special topics that are frequently misunderstood or not generally discussed. Education is our weapon and with elections over, we must concentrate on getting FairTax supporters to push our congressmen and U.S. Senators to co-sponsor our legislation.
Its about 60 days until your tax returns are due. How much longer do you want to file federal personal income tax returns? We have the solution, the FairTax. Invite many others to join you in making it happen. Knowledge is power and we need to be effective advocates of the FairTax.
Who: Join Marc Manieri, Americans for Fair Taxation Community Coordinator in the Greater Orlando, Florida area. In their second year now, Marc’s webinars draw national participation from seasoned FairTax supporters as well as those just getting introduced to the FairTax.
Join: To participate, register here. You will receive a confirmation email with instructions for signing in at the time of the webinar and be asked to download GoToWebinar software. For more information contact Larry Walters at repeal_16@earthlink.net.
FairTax, make April 15th just another day!
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (3:47 pm)N Riley,
I had JUST commented to my dear wife that it was so nice to see some of the regulars really chiming in! IMHO you (and anyone else) has every right to pipe up with an opinion. Obviously, every opinion will have someone here holding a polar opposite. That’s what makes the discussion challenging (and fun). Most of us are pretty good at not taking comments personally. I’m pretty sure that avoiding name calling has a lot to do with that.
Be well and be verbal,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (3:51 pm)Sorry, Mark —I searched this thread but missed your earlier post. Also, congrats & I HATE YOU!!!
.
Feb 4th, 2011 (3:51 pm)I think you mis-understood what he was talking about. He can defend his comment better than I, but I do want to “take you on” on one point you mentioned.
“We need a fair, across the board, sales tax of 5%. With a tiered income tax of 0-33% depending on W-2 income. Including stock dividends and bond gains.”
You are proposing just what we do not need. We do not need both a national sales tax and an income tax with deductions and/or exemptions. I have no problem with no deductions or exemptions or a graduated tax rate system. But I draw the line when it comes to having a national sales tax, a value added tax, an income tax or any of these in combination with another one. One is all we need. Not two of them and certainly not all three as some have suggested. I would agree with a national sales tax by itself if the income tax laws were repealed in the same bill that establishes it along with the elimination of the IRS being replaced with a national sales tax commission like most states have. Maybe a much reduced IRS could serve the need. Maybe. But once you become a wolf, it is hard to change back.
But, getting back to my point. We only need one of the three taxing methods and I don’t like the value added tax concept. It has been abused in Europe and it would be abused here also. Some countries in Europe who set up a VAT originally said they would eliminate the income tax, but they did not. They took the extra money and put it into massive social spending that has gotten them into the fixe they find themselves in today. Very similar to what California finds themselves in today. Sorry Californians if I upset some of you. But I don’t really care if I do. You deserve to be upset. Your state has been on a binge for a long time and now it is time to pay the bill. Problem is, you have no money. Don’t look to the rest of us to pay it for you. Getting off my soap box now.
Let us not make the same mistake the Europeans did and go their routes. If we establish a national sales tax, how do we allow for the poor? Well, they should be able to file for a refund based on earnings, but not a 100% refund and certainly not more than 100%. A fair tax system works best when all, I said ALL, citizens (and non-citizens) pay some tax into the system. How much is the question. A national sales tax system is the fairest and simplest way to tax people. If you do a graduated income tax, people will under-report, congress will pass exemptions and deductions for a favored few (or many, if you will). Based on a person’s previous three years of earnings, the government could issue tax identification cards that are updated in a national data base that when used during the purchase process would tell the commercial enterprise to tax the purchase based upon the rate of sales tax the person is assigned. Proper information about the sale, the seller and the purchaser would need to be captured and sent to the government to use to analyze sales and look for fraudulent transactions. Our credit card companies could handle nearly everything and would be paid a small fee for each transaction. The money would be turned over to the government and these companies would be the party the government would audit.
It really would eliminate a good portion of the IRS and remove many, many other leaches that exist in our society today. IMO. For what it is worth.
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:00 pm)FairTax:
Pay tax on ALL new items. You would not pay tax on any used item or anything that you want to take a chance and smuggle past customs.
The price of all new items produces by US based companies would go down in price because no Corporate tax (~34%) and no company matching payroll tax (7.65%).
This would put pressure on companies to move their operations to the US from other countries that have a corporate tax.
FairTax, make April 15th just another day!
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:01 pm)I’ve read about the Fair Tax and I like some of it’s features (I like the Flat Tax more), but I still have one question:
Why would anyone who is receiving money from govt programs vote for the Fair Tax?
Be well,
Tagamet
/if you think about it, you should post an OT reminder about the webinar closer to the event date. A lot of those older folks might not remember it (lol)
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:04 pm)HEY! That’s My line! (lol). *And* the list is growing.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:06 pm)Tagamet,
Agreed and thanks for your post over the last several years. I have enjoyed them. I just got worn out waiting and lost enthusiasm for the Volt. Now I am getting some of it back. Maybe not as much as needed to be a “regular” again, but some. We are a motley crew of bloggers, aren’t we.
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:17 pm)UNCONTESTED!
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:19 pm)Let’s be clear about the Fair tax proposal. It is a national sales tax plan. They call it a consumption tax. Nothing wrong with that. I like the sales tax (fair tax) better than the “flat tax” simply because the flat tax some members of congress have talked about is not a flat tax but a graduated income tax with multiple rates based on taxable income. Again, we run across that special term we all love so dearly in the income tax laws — “taxable income”. Is not that a beautiful term? It is if you like our current income tax system because sooner than later it would be just as bungled up with this and that until we would not be better off. Now, someone else talk.
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:27 pm)People cheat on their income taxes. What else is new? Either they get audited, or they get away with it. This is only the tiniest tip of the national iceberg. How about giant corporations who shift their corporate addresses to the Caymans, et al, and don’t pay ANY taxes? A lot bigger issue IMHO.
Personally, I would rather talk about the technical details of the Volt, or how long it’s going to take GM to deliver mine, LOL.
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:33 pm)*They will still get their checks. FairTax does not affect any govt programs except the IRS.
*Americans take home their whole paychecks. Everyone gets a pay raise. No federal income taxes or payroll taxes are withheld from paychecks, pensions, or Social Security checks. It abolishes all all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.
*The prebate makes the FairTax progressive.
To ensure no American pays tax on necessities, the FairTax Plan provides a prepaid, monthly rebate (prebate) for every registered household to cover the consumption tax spent on necessities up to the federal poverty level. This, along with several other features, is how the FairTax completely untaxes the poor, lowers the tax burden on most, while making the overall rate progressive. However, the FairTax is progressive based on lifestyle/spending choices, rather than simply punishing those taxpayers who are successful. Do you see how much freer life is with the FairTax instead of the income tax?
*No tax on used goods. The amount you pay to fund the government is totally visible.
With the FairTax you are only taxed once on any good or service. If you choose to buy used goods − used car, used home, used appliances − you do not pay the FairTax. If, as a business owner or farmer, you buy something for strictly business purposes (not for personal consumption), you pay no consumption tax. The FairTax is charged just as state sales taxes are today. When you decide what to buy and how much to spend, you see exactly how much you are contributing to the government with each purchase.
*The income tax exports our jobs, rather than our products. The FairTax brings jobs home.
Most importantly, the FairTax does not burden U.S. exports the way the current income tax system does. The FairTax removes the cost of corporate taxes and compliance costs from the cost of U.S. exports, putting U.S. exports on a level playing field with foreign competitors. Lower prices sharply increase demand for U.S. exports, thereby increasing job creation in U.S. manufacturing sectors. At home, imports are subject to the same FairTax rate as domestically produced goods. Not only does the FairTax put U.S. products sold here on the same tax footing as foreign imports, but the dramatic lowering of compliance costs in comparison to other countries’ value-added taxes also gives U.S. products a definitive pricing advantage which foreign tax systems cannot match.
FairTax, make April 15th just another day!
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:47 pm)Tagamet,
You asked for something; I pointed out a politician has already asked for it. End of story. Please keep the mis-represenational commentary out of it.
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:49 pm)hee hee (be well anyway)
=D-Volt
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:49 pm)People say half truths and false statements like the Volt only goes 40 miles.
You know how frustrating it is when people talk about the Volt and they haven’t done their homework (or they have other motives). That is the same challenge that the FairTax faces. Please, go to the website and spend some time checking out the video clips and articles. Based on the tax plan that you proposed, I think that you will change your mind about the FairTax.
FairTax, make April 15th just another day!
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:50 pm)This looks like a very weak link. Who decides how much it costs to live – the necessities. The politicians? If I’m “comfortable” living at the poverty level, and that level is guaranteed to be met by the govt, Why work? So we can consume more? Maybe I’m missing something important (about the Fair Tax, I mean)(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (4:59 pm)Sorry. If I mis-represented you, it was totally unintentional. Can you point me toward the comment where I asked for something that’s covered by the link you posted. I’m honestly lost about this. If you’re referring to the “getting the money up front”, that wasn’t me! I don’t think that anyone should get the money for a Volt at *any* point, so getting it early or late matters not to me.
TIA.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:09 pm)America is recovering to a near fatal fiscal blow. Can we recover for a few years before rebuilding the apple cart? More Republicans will be elected in 2012. Most Republicans are very watchful of our economy. Let’s see what these fresh eyes bring to the table. If some sort of Fair Tax is discussed. And if the American people can have a say in it. Then maybe it’s the right way to go, in time.
=D-Volt
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:12 pm)=========================
You said it just fine…. Thanks.
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:18 pm)Under the FairTax everyone would get a Prebate (rebate in advance) of the taxes that they would pay up to the poverty level.
The poverty level is already in place. It is currently used to determine the level of govt assistance paid to families. The poverty guidelines are issued each year in the Federal Register by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).
2011 Poverty Guidelines
1 family member – $10,890
2 family members – 14,710
3 family members – 18,530 etc.
If you don’t make that much then you currently may qualify for govt assistance.
Based on 2011 numbers, if you are single and spend less than $10,890 then you would pay no taxes because of the Prebate.
If that is all it take for you to live then you must not be married! My wife puts me way over the threshold.
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:22 pm)After spending some time today at the fair tax web-site (which I have done in the past also) I can see how the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I understand the pre-bate concept better today than in the past because I now understand how it is based. And the method seems very fair. it will be open to public scrutiny and should be a valid method.
I like the fair tax plan better than what we have today and better than the proposed flat tax because of the same reasons stated above as to why I think the flat tax is no better than what we currently have. And we all know what we currently have is like a milestone around our necks.
Hey! Got to go and have a good weekend, everyone. Enjoy.
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:26 pm)N Riley,
Glad you are on board!
I hope Dave K., Jim I, and Tagamet are next.
FairTax, make April 15th just another day!
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:26 pm)========================
Taxable Income should never come into play with a flat tax, which is why I like it better.
I think there should be three or four different percentages, but based on total income. No deductions, no credits, and very simple.
The tax form would fit on a post card. No more 47 page returns. (That is what mine was last year…)
No need for 156,000+ IRS employees.
And if our elected officials want to give out money presents to spur the development of a particular technology, like a credit for the Volt, just send me a check when I send in a copy of the title, and a form signed by the dealer where it was purchased. Again, simple.
And absolutely no VAT with an income tax!!!!
Enough for today. I am going home now. This was a very interesting discussion!!!!
And sorry RJW2, I am a flat tax advocate!!!
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:46 pm)My problem w/the “Fair” tax is people will just stop buying stuff and hoard their $. Then retire at age 40 and move to another country. Basically they will become very cheap, and live at a lower economic level, vs. paying huge taxes to buy something. They will probably just buy used goods to avoid the taxes. How does this work w/homes? Are they considered used? I think employers would also lower salaries knowing that no taxes are taken out of the paychecks. I really dont see this tax increasing the economy or spending. I think the tax would have to be so high to replace the money that income tax provides, prices for goods would be nuts. If I get an extra $100 in my paycheck, i’m not going to buy $100 more worth of stuff. This would also hurt the US tourism industry. Anyone that’s travelled to Europe or Cananda.. how much fun is it trying to keep track of and get your GST money back?
Anywho.. that’s my 2. I’m not really a fan of the flat tax either, but its better than the “fair” tax IMO. I just did my taxes tonight and it took me 30minutes. Not a big deal.
(Disclaimer: yes I know their are tax loopholes and I want them closed too, yes i know that taxes can be confusing for some, and yes I know there are too many goverment employees)
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:47 pm)RJW2,
Just so I understand, you are saying that the Fair Tax would perpetuate the welfare system that we have now? The one where the more fruitful loins get rewarded (that’s why they call it “Fruit of the womb”) ?
I’m still fully open to persuasion. I just haven’t seen a convincing argument yet. I suspect that there’s something in this old fashioned DNA that shouts “It ain’t good to get money from the Govt!” This plan says that EVERYONE should get $ “from the govt” – and the govt is *us*.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (5:59 pm)Haven’t read all the posts, but wouldn’t the simplest solution be just taking $7500 off the sticker price? Let the dealer deal w/the taxes (no pun intended).
Feb 4th, 2011 (6:01 pm)To me it seems too close to a “trickle down” economy, which doesn’t work.
Feb 4th, 2011 (6:20 pm)I don’t believe the “Fair Tax” system would work. Too many people would simply buy goods from Mexico or Canada or from anywhere that doesn’t participate. We would loose too much $$$ from tourists who don’t want to pay that much tax to come here. You woould probably need alot more State Tax Collection employees to help to ensure that proper tax dollars are collected and paid to Sales Tax agency. I don’t see it as an incentive to spend and stimulate the economy and would other countries be taxed the same for buying our products? It sounds like too much of an experiment. Just give me a set rate for gradual income steps with no deductions or credits.
Feb 4th, 2011 (6:30 pm)Ditto. Tax return on a post card (but put it in an envelope, so your identity isn’t stolen). Simple solution to a complex problem, so I think it’d be just as big an experiment, but one I’d love to see played out.
Be well,
Tagamet
/still waiting to hear back from the Fair Tax guy on my last questions…..
Feb 4th, 2011 (6:37 pm)Actually, we do not live in a democracy…We live in a representative republic. We vote for representative, not policy
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:00 pm)Yes … I do prefer a trade war… they have been at war with us for 30 years … why is it the you accept their closed totally protected markets while they dump there heavily government subsidized products in our open market? Maybe your part of the “other half” of the US labor market not affected by UNFAIR Trade. If it doesn’t affect your job who cares how may people lose jobs.
Transplant factories are getting away with NOT PAYING US TAXES…. that doesn’t bother you?
With all the money problems our government has .. they let foreign companies get away with not paying US taxes. .. because of this they raise taxes in the neighboring communites to pay for the infrastructure taxpayers give to these foreign companies for free.
Each job in these transplant factories represents a trading of one job for a thousand lost… which is the reason you will never see a GM or Ford plant in Japan.
These transplant factories suck billions out of our economy each year in the form of profits that go directly overseas. Yes Japan Germany Korea keep us out for this reason.
That foreign car you drive or that car made in the US by a foreign company represents a lost American job… and one of the biggest reasons our economy is in such bad shape.
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:09 pm)Slightly back on topic, yes, I ordered on 12/2/2010. But no, orders before 12/31/2010 don’t count. What counted was completing all paperwork and at least notionally receiving the vehicle. Some people paid for the car or completed lease paperwork by 12/31/2010 in order to claim the credit for the 2010 tax year. Some of them didn’t physically take possession until after the first of the year.
My vehicle is due to be built ~2/21-25/2011 and delivered around the end of March 2011. I won’t pay for it until I get it. For me the $7500 credit will be claimed in 2012 for the 2011 tax year. It will offset the large tax liability from drawing $40,000 from my IRA.
Michael
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:13 pm)Regarding the “Fair Tax”.
This is a good video of a debate between two people on the “Fair Tax” vs. other types of tax reform. It’s pretty intersting however you feel.
http://www.spike.com/video/fair-tax-debate-neal/2720387
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:16 pm)Charlie H,
The only system that cannot be gamed or defrauded or even merely botched is the system that doesn’t exist.
I have this nasty feeling that the instructions are a little vague.
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:20 pm)Many are advocating this, but let me point out just one thing. Not everyone buying a Volt is eligible for the full $7500 credit at tax time. It is “up to $7500,” depending on your tax liability. My tax liability this year, for example (I have been working on it for the last couple days), looks to be about $6800. So, if I could apply for it this year, I would only get $6800 credit, not $7500. Last year would only have been about $4300 (again, not what I paid in, but my liability).
The reason I point this out is that you wouldn’t be able to peg it to tax credit based on liability at the point of sale, but could only establish a fixed amount instant rebate. I’m not arguing for or against, just pointing out that the law would have to be changed not only in point of application, but also on how one fixed the amount.
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:22 pm)Flat tax is good, just make it 7% not the 23% I hear mentioned from time to time. 7% should do everything the government needs to do and retire the debt. They don’t need a 300% pay raise.
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:32 pm)I heard that God (or the preacher) only asks for 10% and that’s enough for him. Just sayin’.
Feb 4th, 2011 (7:49 pm)Well said! (but I still hate you). Your Volt will be “born” on *my* birthday! There’s something very wrong with this picture.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:22 pm)kdawg,
Thanks for the link. The debate is 90 mins long, so I’m not done yet, but although it was in 4/06, it sounds like TODAY. They had just raised the debt ceiling to 9 trillion and now we are thinking of raising it to what, 14 trillion? The top 5 % of the incomes paid almost all the taxes, and they just had to do something about the gap between the upper and lower class. So far the argument for the rich paying the most taxes, has been that “that’s where the money is!” Sounds a lot like a bank robber quote. I’ll weigh in after I hear Part II. I’ve already read Neal Bortz’ book, so I’m most interested in the Law prof’s views. Oh, and Bush’s committee to address their deficit had just been ignored as has Obama’s
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Feb 4th, 2011 (8:58 pm)Volt #555
Rincon Point
Carpinteria, Ca.
02/04/11
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:05 pm)Fondly referred to as “The triple-nickel”
(sigh)
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:22 pm)I agree. It really stupid to give our tax payer money to other countries.
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:33 pm)I thought that the debate was informative and that neither speaker carried the day overwhelmingly. Boortz might have had a slight edge (especially on the Death Tax issue) The audience questions were as good, or better than the debate itself. I don’t know if the Fair Tax proposal has changed in the last 4 years, but I’m certain that the behavior of politicians has not.
Thanks again for the link.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 4th, 2011 (9:40 pm)The credit could require the reporting of the VIN and a paired unique code. The car manufacturer could be responsible for registering the VIN and obtaining the code. Taxpayers would provide both on the tax credit form. It could be easily verified electronically. I’ll be happy to develop and manage the system for a mere 10% of the current annual loss.
Feb 4th, 2011 (10:00 pm)Watched the whole thing. Very interesting and thought provoking. I did get a kick out of the guy at the end though.
Lots of good ideas….so now 5 years later, and what if anything has become of HR-25?
Feb 5th, 2011 (1:44 am)If you had $7500 or more taken out of your 2010 income, you can get the full refund correct? I haven’t done the calculations. I think they should just knock the price down $7500 and forget the tax part.
Feb 5th, 2011 (1:50 am)That’s the sad part, no matter what each person feels, everyone pretty much agrees there needs to be some kind of change. But we seem to be stuck. If they had Youtube back in the 1800′s i’m sure we could watch videos the same kind of debates raging on. (not that tax law hasn’t changed since then, but it’s such a timeless social subject…. death & taxes)
Feb 5th, 2011 (4:07 am)kdawg,
True that. And I’m even more concerned about the shift in American attitude from being “makers” – people who worked and produced, to “Takers” – I deserve a lot from my govt. I think that that shift has been much more recent – probably since Lyndon Johnson’s war on poverty. Hard work was assumed and was seen as it’s own reward, but by trying to help the most needy, the unintended consequence was a large group of citizens who were rewarded for doing nothing. I think that the rules eroded millions of families and solidified a largely permanent under-class. Tragic in my way of thinking about it. And then it fed on itself to become an “I’m entitled” mindset – takers. Conversely, successful people are looked down on – why should they have what I don’t have? Hence the evil rich. It’s like their success is seen as somehow diminishing or at the expense of others. If you ever have a lot of time (1500 pages) Atlas Shrugged – Ayn Rand, is a great read. Written in the ’50′s and continued to sell 500,000 copies last year. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
/ugh, 4 a.m.
Feb 5th, 2011 (7:05 am)No, it is not how much they have taken out of your income, but tax liability that determines if you can get the whole $7500.
For the most part, tax liability can be found on form 1040, line 46.
What you had taken out of your income is mostly on line 61.
If there are no other credits, the difference is what you owe or get refunded.
My understanding of the plug-in car tax credit is that it can not exceed $7500 or line 46, which ever is less.
This is different than Earned Income Credit (EIC) which can exceed tax liability, where low income single parents can get a lot of money back even though they have both low tax liability and low tax payments withheld.
Feb 5th, 2011 (11:17 am)pjkPA,
THats not my quote its a response to my quote See NO1 post on this subject.
Feb 5th, 2011 (11:21 am)I with you 200% on the entitlement issue, and usually railing about it on another site,but this site is mainly for electric car enthusiasts so iv been staying on topic. Just for the record i have some interesting statistics on the subject of entitlements
In FY 2008 The Govt (Fed&State) spent $16,800 per “poor person” on social programs
Thats $67,200 per year for a family of 4
The head of this family would have to earn over $50 an hour or $100,000 per year which is what this family would have to earn in order to take home $67200 after taxes to pay for their own expenses
These FIgures do NOT include all the people getting SSI
payments for their kids faking illnesses
Feb 5th, 2011 (11:48 am)It’s not surprising that there will be attempts to “go for it” on technically-invalid applications to the $7,500 tax credit when any sort of vehicle that “is electric” (in any way, shape or form).
This is just going to continue to happen, which clearly shows the technical deficit (if you will) in our country regarding Extended Range Electric Vehicles. Mostly due to the vastness of media content that is not related to what the Volt is, how it works, it’s complete feasibilities as compared to BEV and ICE, in addition to all the other content that inhibits technical understanding of Extended Range Electric Vehicles. (Yes, we here have been saying EREV, but that remains a totally lost acronym to most Americans.)
The best thing to do to foster EREV is to re-assess that the practicabilities of EREV *ONLY* are the best specifications-fulfillment for any universality of personal transportation.
What I am saying here is to
*****************
***** boldly******
*****************
subsidize EREV only at the point of manufacture as a
*****************
****”system”*****
*****************,
not just because of the battery only!!
This may help to reduce any delay in ramp-up of manufacture.
Feb 5th, 2011 (11:49 am)THe bottom line is Not only is the US Govt a runaway train of entitlements,freebies,and social programs, but they have extended it to foreign car companies.
+2
Feb 5th, 2011 (11:51 am)IF the Govt wants to have 1 million EVs on the road by 2015 the fastest way to do that is to subsidize conversions.$7500 would go a long way to any gas to electric conversions.
Feb 5th, 2011 (12:17 pm)But building conversions to the same exacting standards takes a very long time if at all possible in the first place.
The real effectiveness in getting electric-motoring practicability on the road is really only with Volt currently.
I was just talking to my best friend yesterday, and he had not yet understood that the Volt has a generator to power it for another 350 miles or so with 9.6 gallons of gasoline as the backup mode of distance when needed.
I say: If you want to get the Volts’ wheels on the road as popularly and as expeditiously as had Toyota with Prius, then you subsidize GM directly and permanently at the point of manufacture so that those of us that don’t have $47,500 (MSRP w/warranty & sales **TAX**) lying on the kitchen table,
**************
*can plan how *
**************
we are going to work the $33,500 plus $2200 warranty and sales *****TAX**** (ahem),
into our purchase
*******************
*planning logistics *
*******************.
(You are paying about, what, 1,200 more bucks for EREV anyway compared to a similarly-purposed vehicle, are you not??!!) That also ought to be recognized by those who are bothered by the concept of “entitlement”, “freebies”, etc.
It will have to be done this way if you really want the million “electric” (practicable) vehicles on the road by 2015. From the technical perspective, that means *ONLY* the Volt Extended Range Electric Vehicle which runs a gasoline-driven generator for another 300 miles at least, (Mr. President and Honorable Members of Congress.)
Feb 5th, 2011 (1:23 pm)
Feb 5th, 2011 (1:29 pm)Dan Petit,
Though we’re usually in sync, I couldn’t disagree with you more on this one.
/ mounts soapbox Taken to its illogical conclusion, why doesn’t “the govt” just buy everyone a Volt? Think of all the foreign oil that would save! It’s just a larger subsidy, or freebie, if you will. Where in the constitution does it say that we should pay for electric cars (or any of the *other* subsidies) that the govt THINKS are in our or its best interest? Why should I donate tax dollars for *your* car (or your tax dollars for *my* car)? Please don’t say that the ends justify the means. History is rife with examples of morally bankrupt behavior being justified as for the greater good. /dismounts soapbox
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 5th, 2011 (1:32 pm)Tagamet,
The debt ceiling is very close to being hit again. Goolsbee (rightly so) said it will be very bad if we hit that. He’s the only one in government that I’ve heard give warning of this. Everyone else wants their budgets approved…
You mentioned Atlas Shrugged. I have it, haven’t read it yet but am reading her later book called “The Virtue of Selfishness”. Into Chapter 1 now but it’s excellent. I can see a need for our children to read Rand’s books to reset their entitlement thinking to one of responsibility and success. If our kids learn John Galt thinking, they probably will have a possibility of saving this country.
Your make / take mention – you anywhere near Trenton? There’s a bridge near Trenton, NJ that says “Trenton makes, The World Takes”. I wish this were the case these days. I’m liking the fiscal responsibility that Gov. Christie is showing for NJ. Some tough times ahead for states and the federal debts.
Feb 5th, 2011 (1:59 pm)John,
Amen on all counts! Just today I recommended Atlas Shrugged to my 32 year old daughter. She owns a very eclectic set of beliefs, most of which I share. She considers herself a liberal, but when her husband lost work, they came and lived with us for a year until they got back on their feet. Though *eligible* for “help” from Uncle Sam, I don’t think that either one of them seriously considered taking any. I think that that’s a good sign – especially for a “liberal” (lol).
I do think that the 2008 election results (and what’s happened since) ended up a wake-up call for a lot of Americans. Last Nov was great and 2012 could be even better. There is a new “Party” in Washington – the Slumber Party. Senators and Reps who sleep in their offices to save ~$2000/month in taxpayer funds (2 of them are Democrats).
Although I hope that using the debt limit as leverage results in some significant spending cut guarantees, I also hope that the game of chicken stops short of shutting down the govt.
Someone in this thread mentioned writing/calling their Senators and Congressmen about the Volt subsidies. I smiled to myself, because I already had. I asked that they be stopped.
Be well,
Tagamet
/audible.com has excellent books to listen to. Shrugged is there in abridged and unabridged versions.
//I’m in the geographic center of PA. Right next to absolutely nothing (Lock Haven).
///*LOVE* Gov. Christie. No surprise if he’s tapped as a VP candidate
+1
Feb 5th, 2011 (2:17 pm)To Tag and Randy,
Because improving tax revenues need to become exponential from Volt taxable sales also becoming exponential.
This is the perfect scenario to cause tax revenue growth, firstly and immediately at the State level, then at the Federal level.
As excellent as this site is, 95 percent of the populace do not realize the difference between BEV and EREV.
When I bought the first new vehicle I ever owned in 2005, I was so impressed, that I brought into the dealership 8 (eight) additional new customers for new vehicles purchased on the spot. (And, as a spin-off 5 very good used vehicles!) My influence brought the state about 14,000 dollars in new sales tax revenue, because these folks would have just bought very old used vehicles in decent shape.
This is what it is all about.
If all we think about is “my taxes”, well, they are monies that you do not own as yours.
If I am viewed as wrong on that, then:
How about “my” property taxes that put through school and junior college the children of others, which I pay as a “good investment” into the futures of “your” children and “your” grandchildren, and “your” great grandchildren? (Single folks have a greater tax burden in that sense for the purposes of benefit of the general society, yet we don’t go around with the “my taxes” statement, which I find rather nauseating (sorry, but that’s what it is). How about $21,000 in school property taxes paid to local taxing entities, which, in my opinion, is a very good and necessary investment.
Priming the pump of exponential tax revenue growth has to be done the best way it works.
BTW, when Japan invested into the Toyota Prius to make if feasible to get the, what, 45 to 50 mpg, you did not hear anyone complaining that it wasn’t paying “it’s fair share” of gasoline taxes, the owners just enjoyed the benefits of not paying so much at the pump.
Production has to be based on honestly projected sales. Honestly projected sales have to be rooted within affordability.
If these are points that can not be understood then growth will be too slow.
+1
Feb 5th, 2011 (2:32 pm)I dont really have a problem with the Govt subsidizing GM or other domestic CAr Mfgs to make electric cars. After all they are subsidizing oil rich countries with our military at a far greater cost than a tax credit to buy a volt. Having said that i also believe its NEVER A GOOD IDEA TO SUBSIDIZE YOUR COMPETITION. Its simply madness to first allow nissan to import countless numbers of their cars from japan(something Japan would never allow) ANd then to add insult to injury,subidize the cost of that 100% imported car with borrowed amerian taxpayer dollars.
Like i said before ill be OK with this policy when Japans starts importing VOLTS, sells them For $41000 to the japanese public and SUBSIDIZES its cost with $7500 in JAPANESE tax credits. And we all know thats never going to happen. If you are ever able to buy a volt in japan at all the gov will see to it that it will cost $82000 minimum.
Feb 5th, 2011 (2:37 pm)/..ran out of edit time.
I do really agree with the debt ceiling issues many are bringing up.
I think that “sunsetting” a lot of obsolete programs in government is an ever
important task, and, that task is Waaaaaaaay too slow as well.
I think that EREV exclusively merits a faster tracking than do most people technically understand.
There are thousands of obsolete or non-updated programs that have eluded scrutiny.
These might be very obscured within all governmental departments.
One policy does not fit all situations regarding technology.
One funny (I think) sign I see at one used car dealership (for their service department) is
“We do it all”. ([Servicing of vehicles]),
I say to myself as I pass by occasionally,
“That’s what his customers should be afraid of”.
+1
Feb 5th, 2011 (2:40 pm)Dan Petit,
Almost all of the inequities you suggest are the result of Federal intervention in LOCAL policies/action. Farm and OIL subsidies are based on exactly your reasoning. Even if I stipulated that you are correct on all points (and I *do* agree with, er,… none of them)(g), the federal ship is sinking in an ocean of red ink. The national debt is growing at a rate of $57,000 a second>/i>. That’s Four thousand million dollars a DAY ($4 Billion/day). Even if people elect reps that believe that subsidies are the “right” thing to do, A) we have no money and B) please refer to A.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 5th, 2011 (2:47 pm)Randy,
I really totally agree with that.
I have been **really** reserved with what I really think about Leaf feasibility.
I will instead completely defer to your very thoughtful post in order to
be satisfied with a general intent that EREV is the only way to go, to **more than
offset** a misperceived (imo) viewpoint than Volt should not have accelerated
productions in these manners. (I’ll personally wait years if I have to, as it’s not about what *I* want, it is about what is most wise to raise tax revenues. Moving forward means not staying in the same place.
Feb 5th, 2011 (6:20 pm)Some rules would have to be defined was what qualified as a plugin conversion. Otherwise, people will take the $7500 and put in a rechargeable fan. The conversion companies I have seen charge about $20,000 to do a conversion (and they get to keep the old parts).
Feb 5th, 2011 (6:40 pm)OK, so using the charts in the 1040 instructions page 74, in order to get $7500 on line 46 (basically line 44) as a single peson w/no children, the least amount of taxible income would be $42,250. So if your TAXIBLE income is less than this, you cannot get the full $7500.
I’m I following this correctly?
Feb 5th, 2011 (6:56 pm)I believe Atlas Shrugged was about productive people being oppressed by non-productive people (in a nut-shell). To me, someone that buys something for $1 and sells it for $2 is not productive in our society. I don’t think the averge Wall St. banker should get 20 million/year, or million dollar bonuses. Same goes for lobbyists. These people are some of the richest members of society, yet contribute nothing. So I’m OK w/the governement taxing the hell out of them to pay for social programs.
PS: I had to Google “free time” to find out what it was.
Feb 5th, 2011 (7:33 pm)I don’t have a tax table to do the calculation, but it sounds like you are understanding the process. When I take $40,000 out of my IRA (all taxable) this year and add that to my current income, I’ll have PLENTY of tax liability. I figure the $7500 will beat me back to close to where I am now.
BTW, did I mention that the appropriate form to use is 8936? The output of form 8936 then goes to line 53. (You check the “c” box and enter 8936 on the line, then put the dollars in the 53 box.) Hope this helps.
Feb 5th, 2011 (8:09 pm)It looks like that is correct. You basically have to have taxable income of $42250 to meet $7500 (to put on line 11). Otherwise your final credit for line 53 in the 1040 will be less than $7500.
Feb 5th, 2011 (8:13 pm)Dan Petit,
Maybe if Ford made an EREV, they could help by making sure their customers understood the difference between a hybrid and a car that has an AER.
Feb 5th, 2011 (9:01 pm)kdawg,
Good interaction kdawg. Thanks, Michael
Feb 5th, 2011 (9:41 pm)So if you came to my office and I listened to you for an hour, I *produced* nothing. Somehow that doesn’t “work” for me. So if I spend 19 years learning a skill, I can’t profit from it? Your view of productive is a lot more narrow than mine, but then again, I talk to people and they pay me for it. Sounds as bad as Wall Street or lobbyists. Or maybe you think that the govt should determine what your productivity is worth. BTW, what is it that you produce?
You may not have intended it, but you sure sound like an envyist (yes, I just made up that word)(g).
I strongly suspect that you haven’t read (or listened to) Atlas Shrugged. The cliff notes version just doesn’t do it. Do you know how they (the productive people) “solved” the problem?
Be well,
Tagamet
/it seriously is a great read.
Feb 5th, 2011 (9:51 pm)I think the guy iv been in contact with who does pickup trucks on a small scale spends way less than $20000 closer to half of that,so $7500 may pay for 1/2 to 3/4 of the job. Just sayin he also get about 60 miles AER range from deep cycle marine batteries nothing exotic and expensive like Li-ion but hes been drivin these things for a long time.
Feb 5th, 2011 (9:56 pm)Sometimes i get worked up when i think of how these other countries have been pissin on us for so long, and now were so deep in debt its time to cut the cord and all the freebies weve been showering on these countries ,by the way i have nothing against foreigners or asians ,my wife is one and so are half my friends,wonderful people, but we as individuals dont set trade policies so i also dont blame americans who drive foreign cars for the USs idiotic trade policies either.
Feb 5th, 2011 (10:00 pm)Tagamet,
WOw tag, you talk to people and they pay you for it! sounds like a nice GIG. You must be a psychiatrist ,ventriloquist,or the weather man.
Feb 5th, 2011 (10:11 pm)Excellent guess, Randy. Stretch out on the couch and we’ll have a little chat…. (lol). Maybe I should get my fee “up front”.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 5th, 2011 (10:24 pm)Tagamet,
I dont think you have that much time to analyze me Tag you would have to make me your only patient. And when your done you might need some therapy yourself haha. May even take up drinking (not that theres anything wrong with that)I Have to say i always though you were a stand up guy the way you can get into a good argument but never lose your cool. I admire that.
Be well TAg
Feb 5th, 2011 (10:31 pm)Ahh Grasshopper, the angry soul never wins…. (g).
(I made that up too)(lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
/shrinkery is just theatre with patience (not patients)
Feb 5th, 2011 (10:46 pm)Tagamet,
My next guess was a phone sex worker like 1 800 hot mama.They talk to people and get paid for it right ? I could do that. Might be something im good at too, well too bad i guessed it on the first shot.
Feb 5th, 2011 (10:58 pm)I don’t even want to *consider* what they could claim as “product” (g). I did give you credit for “close”. I’m a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. The former has all their training in psychology, the latter gets a medical degree and does a year’s residency in psychology (so they can prescribe meds, but I can’t). Ideally, we both might help you feel better. Better living through chemistry, or…
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 5th, 2011 (11:12 pm)Im finding a lot of professionals,or above average education and income on this volt site, same as the hearth site i frequent with fellow wood stove users, it surprised me to learn most of the people using wood stoves were professionals as well, not what you figure just people trying to save money on home heat but also improved quality of life and be environmentally friendly at the same time. Seems like what we have in common on volt.com is trying to kill several birds with one stone ,save money,get off oil,stop polluting the air,and put our fellow countrymen back to work. I hope we all succeed.
Cheers
Feb 6th, 2011 (2:05 am)A “service” is also a product. But (back to my oringal example of a banker) making millions of dollars for himself off of other people’s money is a dis-service to society. Then not wanting to pay taxes for all the money he received from the people to provide services back to the people is also a shame.
I don’t agree w/most of Ayn Rand’s philosophical ideas or a laissez-faire system. I think the only thing I have in common w/her is her view on religion (just not as harsh). Striking is not always the best/only solution. I’ve always joked w/my co-workers about forming an Engineering union. However, in reality any group could “strike” and cause major harm. Everyone needs everyone. Ofcourse my exception would be $20million/year Wall St. bankers. They could strike/dissapear and I would care less. Someone would provide the same “service” for 1/100th the cost to society (and they would probably pay taxes).
I’m done w/this. Not the place to debate philosophies.. LOL..GM-Volt.com
Feb 6th, 2011 (2:07 am)If he could warranty it for 8 years, I would probably be OK w/$7500 for the conversion.
Feb 6th, 2011 (2:20 am)Chevy Volt Super Bowl ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEzWNj2LHMY
Feb 6th, 2011 (3:52 am)Well, shoot. I thought that we were debating govt policies. Are you saying that no one providing a service should get paid an obscene amount, or just the evil bankers? Does it hold for Elton John concerts? Rush Limbaugh? (wink). I agree that *some* earn more through who they know, than on what they contribute, but I think that that falls under the “life’s not always fair” column. Super Bowl is later today. Should these athletes/performers be paid more than, say players for Dallas? Tomorrow’s Super Bowl players are paid based on MERIT. They performed better than the other players in the league, so (dare I say it) they earned it. Maybe the winners shouldn’t get a very expensive ring. Imagine how badly the losing team feels – not getting a ring and all. It seems to me that only the cream of any particular crop gets paid huge amounts (and most don’t *like* paying taxes on it). How does one person earning a lot pose a huge cost to society? They aren’t taking any of OUR money that we haven’t given them willingly.
Ayn Rand did not write kindly of unions or strikes. A laissez-faire policy by Ayn Rand referred only to her stance against the govt using force to control the governed.
I can understand why you are tiring of this discussion, but I’ve personally found your input very helpful. None of us is as smart as all of us. Sorry you want to quit, but it’s obviously your option.
Be well and God Bless,
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (7:06 am)kdawg,
Commercials are great, cars people can drive and talk and think about are better. If the cars are fast and fun enough, a person’s goal will be to somehow get one in their driveway.
Feb 6th, 2011 (8:28 am)Tagamet,
What are you doing up at 3:52am? Get SOME sleep man.
Feb 6th, 2011 (8:38 am)GM cut its dealership ranks from 6,150 before bankruptcy to just under 4,500 today. With fewer dealers sharing sales, the ones who are left are far more profitable, Reuss said. Ninety percent of GM’s dealers now make money compared with less than 40 percent at the end of 2009, he said.
4500 dealers x 30 Volts each = 135,000 per year (no problem)
Feb 6th, 2011 (9:58 am)Seems if you can pay half price for something you would not demand the same warranty as the double priced item. The batteries have an individual Mfg warranty as well as im assuming the electric motor.
Feb 6th, 2011 (10:03 am)How were the 60% staying open if they were not making money, my guess is they were making money but not obcene amounts of money. My family member worked for a GM dealer,who was only happy if their profit was in the millions consistently. They spent half their time on cruises.
Feb 6th, 2011 (11:54 am)I have no sympathy for claims on cars that aren’t eligible for tax credits. IRS should reject the return or bill the filer for the tax liability and move on.
Feb 6th, 2011 (12:37 pm)Well *someone* has to ponder these things! (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (3:36 pm)If the driver is going to get $7500 for committing to a plug in EV, it needs to last at least 8 years. Meaning, he/she needs to be driving via electricity for 8 years. Otherwise once again, you will have ppl just putting crap in a car that dies in 2 years and keep pocketing the $7500.
Feb 6th, 2011 (4:01 pm)Any good football on today?
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (4:04 pm)Tagamet,
Only good for those originally from Wisconsin.
Game on! 
Feb 6th, 2011 (4:18 pm)SNAPS! Michael with Terrible Towel I’ll catch *you* after the game! (mutters “Cheese-heads..)
Good luck (yeah, right),
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (4:34 pm)Tagamet,
Born and raised in Milwaukee, WI area ~23 years
Outskirts of Chicago area ~12 years
In between Denver, Phoenix, and Dallas ~25 years
Near Pittsburgh, PA ~3 years
Now, who do you suppose I’m going to root for?
Feb 6th, 2011 (4:48 pm)Hey derk er jerbs, derk!
Feb 6th, 2011 (4:50 pm)Since the tax credit does not exist for conversions ,its premature to write the rules for it now however if it was to be implemented im sure it could be tailored to a time frame and a cost vs use structure. Im not sure conventional deep cycle batteries have 8 year warranties perhaps 6.My point is conversions are a lot cheaper than a whole new car when your focusing on the propulsion system mainly,so change the propulsion system. If 60 miles AER for a pickup truck is possible from your backyard mechanics conversion,you would thing the big boys could do it with ease.
Feb 6th, 2011 (4:50 pm)I’m so shocked that you’d admit to that history, who KNOWS who you’d root for. Does the asylum have a team playing? (lol)
Remember your meds,
Tagamet
+1
Feb 6th, 2011 (5:15 pm)OT (gasp) Family photo:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2121030&id=1162730563&l=5d9467ddcc
(Click on it once there)
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (8:27 pm)The Chevy VOLT ad in the Super Bowl was good, but not especially funny or exciting. The Chevy Silverado Truck ad with the Crew Cab saving Timmy from the well, the cave, the hot air balloon, the belly of a whale, and the volcano was the kind of ad people remember. Oh well…
Feb 6th, 2011 (8:57 pm)CorvetteGuy,
Yeah, the first half commercials really had the Steelers off their game, but they are coming back.
Thought the Timmy ad was the best of a flock of lousy commercials. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (10:20 pm)Congrats to the *#%#*@&()@ Packers. Good game.
Maybe next year….
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (10:27 pm)No, the Panthers should be back next year.
Feb 6th, 2011 (10:36 pm)The Camero ads were pretty good, don’t you think.
And the one they gave Aaron Rogers looks awesome.
Feb 6th, 2011 (10:38 pm)Eco_Turbo,
From the looks of the player/owner negotiations, there might not be *anyone* coming back next season. Owners are asking for the players to give back $1 billion a year for the next 7 years. It’s for good causes (player retirement$ and medical help post-career), but still a tough sell.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (10:42 pm)Yeah, I’ve always love Cameros (had one back in the ’60′s), so it’s tough to screw up a Camero Ad. The G family fav was the Bridgestone beaver “bridge is out” commercial. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 6th, 2011 (11:06 pm)Tagamet,
You know, that one ended up being a school teacher. Maybe somebody you know would like a 426 HP machine.
I’m sure CorvetteGuy can fix you up. 
Feb 6th, 2011 (11:26 pm)Haha nice Tag… Here’s one I just uploaded today.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=6482043&l=0d4a9ce647&id=722943029
join thE REVolution
Feb 7th, 2011 (12:23 am)ClarksonCote,
LOL, Hurley is a BIG ‘un! Our cats LOVE a circular basket. Does this look comfortable?
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=1810341615965&set=a.1809624758044.2121030.1162730563
Be well,
Tagamet
Feb 7th, 2011 (1:49 pm)Tagamet,
Haha, that picture is hilarious! I have a circular basket like that… When my cat is being playful, he likes to jump in there with his front paws, and then tilt his head and fall over so the basket tips sideways. Then he uses it as his staging area for attacks. It’s pretty funny to watch, I need to get it on video.
join thE REVolution