Dec 02

GM’s Plans for Chevy Volt Profitability

 


[ad#post_ad]The Chevrolet Volt is a heroic and landmark vehicle, and a grand achievement by General Motors. We here have been following the car’s development since its inception as a concept, and along the way have often wished GM would plan to sell many hundreds of thousands of them. The more Volts on the road, the less oil used.

Of course GM shouldn’t build more cars than can be sold, and more importantly for the newly profitable company, they shouldn’t build cars they cannot make money on.

According to multiple GM executives there is little or no profit being made on each Volt built at a present cost of around $40,000. Furthermore, the $700 million of development that went into the car has to be recouped.

GM does have a plan to make the Volt business case profitable, according to vehicle line executive Doug Parks. “In reality, it won’t be profitable at the beginning,” said Parks about the Volt.

The plan to profitability is to reduce cost on a yearly basis as opposed to waiting the full development cycle to a second generation, typically 5 or 6 years for most cars.  “It is our hope, every year as we have opportunity to improve the performance and even take cost out, that at the end of the first lifecycle we make money,” he said.

Parks also disclosed GM is trying to improve efficiency with each yearly iteration too, but that itself wont help bring down costs, except if less lithium ion cells are needed to achieve the same range.  “We’re developing technology that can lead to minor increases in performance but a big cost reduction,” he said.

“No big changes to range and/or performance, just ongoing tweaks and refinements in many different areas, including battery,” Parks told GM-Volt.  ”We will have a strong focus to improve costs,  but will make sure we at least maintain performance – or even improve it slightly if possible.”

Parks also reported that the entire 2011 build inventory has already been sold out. Those units, he said, “are gone.”

Despite this high demand and low volume, GM has no immediate production modifications.  “There’s really no plan to change that slow ramp-up through next year,” he says. “Then, when we really open it up in ’12, we’ll build our planned volume and see what the market says. If we want to do a lot more, we’ll look at it.”

Source (Wards Auto)

Hat tip to JeremyK.
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This entry was posted on Thursday, December 2nd, 2010 at 6:50 am and is filed under Financial, Next Generation. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 147


  1. 1
    Barry252

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (6:58 am)

    “Parks also reported that the entire 2011 build inventory has already been sold out. Those units, he said, “are gone.”

    Woo-Hoo! GM has a hit on it’s hands. But didn’t we already know that?

    If I wasn’t looking forward to owning mine so much. I might consider my own auction. But on second thought…..NO! I want it! Come on VIN 63!


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    Dave4664

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:17 am)

    I hope GM will find ways to:

    A. Lower the cost of the Volt.
    B. Increase their profit on each unit.
    C. Massively ramp up the production numbers so the tech can be widely adopted. ( I want to see Volts on every street in the USA and as many as possible in Canada, Great Britain, Australia…and the rest of the world! )

    This is one tall order…but in today’s day and age, it’s the only way to succeed with ANY product. The good news is that GM is a global company…..But do they have the “willingness” to succeed? Time will tell. I sure do hope so…. because the world desperately needs slash oil consumption….for so many reasons.


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    John

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:19 am)

    Is he saying (hinting?) that the 2011 build plan is set in stone? No increase over the 15K? The CEO hinted on looking for ways to improve it but that may then mean the 2012 model year, correct? I hear Volt ads on NPR almost every 15 minutes. I still don’t get the advertising spend for a product that is nearly impossible to buy. Unless they somehow will build 100,000 2012 models.

    It’s the beginning of a new era. The problem they have is they may have not learned how to judge demand (high) based on years of interest in Hybrids and the potential for a hot growth product based on green desires, oil independence and saving costs. The concept of the Volt just makes sense. It should be made in quantities that are talked about for the Cruze and sold at $30K with a $3500 tax rebate. They’d be able to sell 200K units a year and crush the competition.


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    koz

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:31 am)

    “Parks also reported that the entire 2011 build inventory has already been sold out. Those units, he said, “are gone.” ”

    What does this mean in layman’s english? 200, 10k, 15k? 2011 model year, calendar year?


  5. 5
    FME III

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:41 am)

    Mixed signals are being sent lately re: production. One day, the CEO says the company is looking for ways to double or triple production. The next day, Parks says they’re standing pat with their ’10 and ’11 production volumes.

    Of course, the CEO outranks the vehicle line executive so I’d say he’ll get the final word.

    As for cost reduction, I’ve always thought that it would take improvements in the battery pack to bring significant savings. The question now becomes, how much of that savings will they pass on by lowering the car price? Which raises another question: Do they need to pass any of it along provided that demand remains high?


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    LeoK

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:46 am)

    The most successful products require a tremendous about of R&D, testing, and marketing saavy – along with a bit of luck timing the overall economy. I’d say VOLT has achieved A+ marks on the first few and is poised to profitably excel in the market.


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    JohnK

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:48 am)

    The 2011 MY build has for some time been stated at 10,000 units. Most cars will begin the 2012 MY in July of 2011 with a two week model change over period. I would think that the Volt might not need the two week pause, but that might be wrong. In any case, there are two other cars being built at DHAM, so the MY changeover may have to be coordinated between the three car lines. To “slowly ramp up” Volts are only put on the line at a smaller ratio than other cars (1 to 10 has been mentioned). Also, they can leave an empty slot before or after each Volt. Of course that would add costs (because the workers are spending more time on each Volt). Naturally, as people develop efficient routines that will lower the cost.


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    chris

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:49 am)

    y’all killing the oil industrial when the volts coming into the market. Old history cars will be spending about
    5 or 6 dollars a gallon at the pump. Oil companies has to have profit
    And you know. Plus, volts and cruze will be awesome. Furthmore be prepared gas
    Consumption.


  9. 9
    JeremyK

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:55 am)

    GM can afford to take a loss for a short period of time on a limited number of vehicles, but they need to be making money on each car by the time they ramp up to 2012/2013 levels.

    Those waiting for a Gen II price decrease may be very disappointed. The price will likely never be lower than the “after rebate” cost of $33K. Since the car isn’t profitable right now, most of the cost savings GM is working on will go toward making the car profitable. GM is going to have to take $7500 out of each vehicle just to offset the tax rebate after it expires. Even if they cut out $7500, they’ll still be making roughly the same profit that they are right now, which is little/none. Granted, to the consumer, financing a car at $33K is very different than financing a car at $41K and waiting for the tax rebate.

    As the (Wards.com) articles states, typical design cycles are 5-6 years. During that time the Volt will go through incremental cost reductions and improvements, but the overall powertrain will remain essentially the same as it is today. We’re talking 2016-2017 for a Gen II Volt, which is probably also about the same time (or just after) they’ve sold 200,000 units and the tax rebate is no longer available.

    If you want a Volt, I would suggest putting your order in now and not waiting for Gen II. The article states that even though the first ~15,000 units are already sold, there are no plans to change the ramp up schedule. So, even at the end of 2011, GM will have only produced about 15,000 Volts. Even with the planned increases in 2012 and beyond, the Volt is going to remain a very exclusive car for several more years.


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    Baltimore17

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:56 am)

    What worries me is the ways they might reduce costs. Some things become optional on a lower-price base model including navigation, the Bose audio, alloy wheels and the two-tone (black roof) paint — but the combined cost of the options and base price rises above $41K. Some subtle parts of the design get eliminated like the extra door seals that contribute to that blissfully quiet interior.

    For example, for 2011 Honda has introduced a decontented Insight, a lower trim level, to get the cost of entry down. As long as the Insight’s full content version’s price stays the same — and as long as the 2012 Volt costs the same as the 2011 Volt with the same base content — I have no problem.


  11. 11
    Texas

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:56 am)

    This is a very good plan – work out the costs on a yearly cycle, at least on this model.

    Next, be sure to touch base with RMI and make sure the lightweighting procedures are being worked on.

    One of the most important things is to get the weight down. This will save batteries, performance, etc. Less is more in this game.

    Also, Ford is all over this. Remember who runs that company – only the guy that made the 787 Dreamliner a reality. He knows the importance of saving weight and will be looking for that leap frog opportunity.

    Just like how our national debt doesn’t look so bad if we grow the economy, GM needs to get as many as these out the door, with perfect quality, as possible. Even breaking even helps pay off those development costs. Open up a whole new door!


  12. 12
    Baltimore17

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:03 am)

    Texas: Also, Ford is all over this. Remember who runs that company – only the guy that made the 787 Dreamliner a reality. He knows the importance of saving weight and will be looking for that leap frog opportunity.

    The 787 might not be the best exemplar of good product development. It was rolled out on July 8, 2007 (get it? 7/8/07) but won’t be delivered to an initial customer until, at the earliest, second quarter 2011, two and a half years late. Compare Boeing’s six delays in the announced delivery date to the Volt’s successful, as-promised, November 2010 first delivery.


  13. 13
    Herm

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:07 am)

    GM is doing good , a 20% increase in November sales over last year, they sold 8066 of the new Cruze.

    http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36585


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    Schmeltz

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:13 am)

    From where I stand, there are 2 places that are the best areas to take out costs: the battery and battery pack. Through there vast research, hopefully they are finding ways to deliver a durable battery pack that needn’t be as costly to manufacture. I think some GM execs in the recent past have mentioned some significant cost reduction measures they will employ on Gen. 2 that will bring down the cost, and still offer a long lasting durable battery pack that delivers the spec’s. As sited in the article, it sounds like GM may try some cost reduction changes on the fly even before Gen. 2 arrives.

    And the Battery cells themselves would be the second area to score cost reductions. The battery makers such as LG and A123 need to begin making high volumes of batteries, (and they will), and then I can see some cost being chipped away.

    Bottom line for me, I hope GM doesn’t “cheapin” the car by say using cheaper interior materials or downgrading overall quality feel, but rather find very clever ways of manufactuuring the car, the battery cells, and pack more efficiently.


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    Joe

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:16 am)

    I have been enthusiastically following the Volt for over 2 years. It is a great car. In my situation, I do not need the extended range. I would be happy with a less expensive car that had the 100 mile range. I am hoping that GM will take the Cruze and make it electric similar to the Leaf for a cost of around $25K. I really think this would sell. Does anyone know when this will happen?


  16. 16
    sudhaman

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:21 am)

    well i have an idea. now we all know that lg chem cannot be able to supply those batteries if GM were to increase production of its volt. the idea that i would like to share is that why should GM just have a contract with one supplier. GM could get the present needed supply of batteries from lg chem. if they would like to increase the production then very well give a new contract to another battery supplier like the A123 systems or ener del or xyz battery company who have proven tech with them. lg chem was chosen by GM neglecting A123 due to some reasons. now they can still negotiate with them to supply rest of the batteries to increase the production.


  17. 17
    Gsned57

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:32 am)

    For 2011, They have 15,000 Volts already spoken for. If we assume that those 15,000 volts are driving 12,000 all electric miles a year and that they are replacing a 25MPG ICE car, that’s 7.2 million gallons of oil that won’t be bought. That’s $21,600,000.00 that America won’t be sending to the middle east. 21 million dollars isn’t a whole lot, but 2012 will see 45,000 new volts plus the 15K already out so in 2012 we’re keeping 80 Million dollars in the US. It won’t be very many years (2015ish) before we’re talking billions of dollars a year that would have gone over seas and recirculating it at home, lessening our dependence on the whims of terrorists and cartels, and making the air a little better to breath at the same time.

    Keep spending the development $$ on this GM. Bring the costs down, the profit up, and figure out how to double or tipple production. We need this car!


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:42 am)

    Baltimore17: What worries me is the ways they might reduce costs.Some things become optional on a lower-price base model including navigation, the Bose audio, alloy wheels and the two-tone (black roof) paint —

    It is traditional for cars to be decontented as the years go by, that two-tone paint on the Volt will go quickly, it is expensive since it requires a second pass thru the paint line along with masking to separate the two colors.

    Hopefully GM can save about $5k on the batteries in a few years.. what will save the rest is mass production of the other parts.. especially the Volt’s electric transmission. The end of the $7500 tax credit will be a big impact.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:55 am)

    Taking the current tax credit out of the car’s price before 200k are built will be a huge effort. That is IF the new Congress lets the credit continue. There’s a giant backlash against government intervention coming (heck it’s already here in my neighborhood).

    Even if the tax credit goes away sooner than expected, I think that the Volt will have buyers for many years to come even at full price.

    GM has a lot of tricks up her sleeve that we don’t know about. Hints at future (solidstate) battery technology are very interesting.


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    barry252

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:59 am)

    Please delete comment #13. It’s truly offensive.


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    Mark Z

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (9:00 am)

    koz: “Parks also reported that the entire 2011 build inventory has already been sold out. Those units, he said, “are gone.” ”What does this mean in layman’s english? 200, 10k, 15k? 2011 model year, calendar year?    

    koz gets it. Just what is “build inventory?” Only when the dealer hands the key fob to the customer would I consider a Volt “sold.” Don’t let a “sold out” comment stop anyone from checking with their dealer to determine what allocations are available.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (9:09 am)

    Okay. Now I’m bummed again. In the past month, GM has announced production increases and I have been happily taking orders and deposits. Now, we are just days away from receiving our first car, with appointments to show it off to government officials: Mayors, City Councilmen, Members of State Assembly, and my wife, and now I can only tell all of them that we can take their order for a 2012. Please wait.

    Rats.


  23. 23
    Schmeltz

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (9:13 am)

    Loboc: Hints at future (solidstate) battery technology are very interesting.

    Just curious…what is the “solidstate” battery technology you mentioned? Is that Lithium Air or something different?


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    Jim I

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (9:52 am)

    “Furthermore, the $700 million of development that went into the car has to be recouped.”

    Wait a minute here…..

    I thought that most of that development cost was absolved by the bankruptcy!!!

    Now they way to get it back again???? That sounds like fuzzy accounting to me.

    I think we need a bit of clarification on this topic.

    JMHO


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    honoreitiscom

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (9:52 am)

    When the Prius first came out the detractors were all over it because Toyota admitted it was not profitable. But look at it now, it is a mainstream high volume profitable car. The same thing will happen with the Volt.

    NOW is the time to buy a Volt, while the tax credit is still available, and before cost is taken out. The best value to the consumer is right now.


  26. 26
    Dave G

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (9:57 am)

    Baltimore17: What worries me is the ways they might reduce costs. Some things become optional on a lower-price base model including navigation, the Bose audio, alloy wheels and the two-tone (black roof) paint — but the combined cost of the options and base price rises above $41K. Some subtle parts of the design get eliminated like the extra door seals that contribute to that blissfully quiet interior.

    For example, for 2011 Honda has introduced a decontented Insight, a lower trim level, to get the cost of entry down.

    I think a lower trim level would be great! And I don’t see how it would raise the price of the current trim level. I think Honda has the right idea with a lower trim level for the Insight.

    Many people aren’t willing to spend extra for a library-quiet acoustic insulation package, navigation, alloy wheels, etc. For those that want the extras, they can buy that trim package, but for those that don’t, they shouldn’t be forced to pay for it.

    The driver’s LCD could be easily be replaced with normal analog gauges. If the tachometer is zero, you know the ICE is off.

    And the center stack doesn’t need to be so high-tech. If people want to configure and monitor things, that can be done very cheaply by using a WiFi interface to a normal consumer device (iPhone, netbook, desktop, etc).

    Again, for the people that want all the high-tech and acoustic options, they can pay $41K. But there are many people who want a more normal car.

    In particular, the Volt MPV5 model would benefit greatly from a base model with lower trim options.
    chevyvoltmpv5exterior01.jpg


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    BiodieselJeep

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:00 am)

    Look, the way to make this more profitable it to put the vehicle into a higher-pricepoint platform (minivan, anyone?) or luxury brand with upscale modelling like The ConverJ or another caddy nameplate. Even a lower ranged but bigger vehicle will be easily accepted in the 2012-13 marketplace once the ice has been broken with the Volt. I am the umpteenth person to say it.

    Batteries can’t drop in price too too much right now…they are heavily commoditized as it is.


  28. 28
    N Riley

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:01 am)

    In my opinion, this really sucks! I am one of those who had hoped GM would sell all the “planned” production for 2011 (which they have, apparently) and would then see the need to increase production from 15K to 25 or 30K. But this is not part of the “grand plan” that GM is sticking to. Well, no Volt for me in 2011 or most of 2012 it looks like, unless I want to go to one of the lucky states and hope to squeeze in a line for an early 2012 model in early 2012. I don’t see that happening.

    So, either I sit on my butt and wait or purchase the Leaf when it comes to my city next fall. I have said before that I have the money waiting in the bank and I would purchase whichever vehicle gets to my local area first. I plan to do just that. Doesn’t look like it will be a Volt sitting in my driveway. So, this is one more dream shattered. Thanks, GM.

    This bit about no profit or very little on each Volt sold is somewhat wrong in a lot of cases. How many of Volt owners will opt for the options like some of the paint colors that cost as much as $695.00 extra? Or the optional wheels? Or the premium interior? Or the back-up camera? Each of these options are expensive and will contain considerable profit. So, GM is a little tongue in the cheek when they say there is little or no profit in the Volt. I see several thousand dollars in profit based on the Volt I configured this week.

    That’s all of my ranting. Stick a fork in me. I am done!!


  29. 29
    Tom

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:05 am)

    Ok we know it costs about $40,000 to build and the battery is about $10,000 so there is a lot of cost in the $30,000 balance that can be removed when they make money on the Cruse with the same ICE .
    It would appear to me there is a lot that could be done to remove costs and reduce weight at the same time.
    I just hope the engineering team continues to have the final say and not the bean counters as it is my belief that is what got GM into the downward spiral in the first place. The cost was the primary concern all through the 1980,s.
    Now it must to be the Quality above all else if GM is going to grow to the biggest and best again.
    Tom
    PS did I see that correctly that GM has only 2% of the worlds car market?


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    JeremyK

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:05 am)

    Jim I,

    I don’t see how those costs would have been absolved during the bankruptcy process. All of the assets that went into the development of the Volt were carried into the “new” GM….along with their associated costs.


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    ThombDBhomb

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:10 am)

    Lowering costs to increase profit – I don’t see where the MSRP will be lowered anytime soon. The original concept was for an affordable e-rev. $40k is not affordable.


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    Matthew B

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:11 am)

    BiodieselJeep: Look, the way to make this more profitable it to put the vehicle into a higher-pricepoint platform (minivan, anyone?)

    I wouldn’t call a mini-van a high price point.

    But I sure would like a hybrid minivan. There are non options to get a minivan with over 24 MPG.


  33. 33
    Jim in PA

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:11 am)

    Why does the $700 million of development that went into the car have to be recouped??? Didn’t bankruptcy and reorganization jettison old debt like this? Can someone clear this up for me?


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    Dave G

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:12 am)

    honoreitiscom: When the Prius first came out the detractors were all over it because Toyota admitted it was not profitable. But look at it now, it is a mainstream high volume profitable car. The same thing will happen with the Volt.

    Excellent point. The Prius came out in 1997, and was only available in Japan initially. So it took 12 years for the Prius to reach 400,000 units a year.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius#Sales

    honoreitiscom: NOW is the time to buy a Volt, while the tax credit is still available, and before cost is taken out. The best value to the consumer is right now.

    I’m not so sure.

    First, E85 is a big deal for me. A FlexFuel EREV would reduce gasoline consumption to practically nothing.

    Second, GM has said many times they will be improving the design in each model year. For example, the battery warranty is only 8 years/100,000 miles initially, but will be 10 years/150,000 miles by 2013.

    Also, the tax credit covers the first 250,000 vehicles. It will take GM at least 4 years to reach that. 10,000 in 2011, 45,000 in 2012, those numbers are firm. That leaves around 200,000 more before the tax credit expires, assuming they don’t extend it.


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    Jim in PA

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:17 am)

    Dave G: First, E85 is a big deal for me. The combination of electric and E85 could reduce gasoline consumption to practically nothing.

    Remember, E85 (15% gasoline) doesn’t mean that your petroleum usage goes down by 85%. Corn ethanol is very petroleum intensive to produce in terms of energy and fertilizer. For every 1 BTU of input, ethanol produces around 2.3 BTU of output. So although you will reduced petroleum use substantially, “practically nothing” isn’t close to accurate.


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    T 1

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:19 am)

    I would guess that the final word on production numbers has not been said yet.

    We could use that old billion $ to get them out faster! lol


  37. 37
    Dave G

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:20 am)

    Jim in PA: Corn ethanol is very petroleum intensive to produce in terms of energy and fertilizer.

    There’s a lot of misinformation about ethanol:

    Ethanol Myth #1: It takes around 1 gallon of oil to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol.
    Reality: This is only for Corn Ethanol. Other sources of Ethanol use little or no fossil fuels.

    Ethanol Myth #2: Ethanol will never be cost effective without subsidies.
    Reality: Raw Ethanol can be produced for around $1/gallon without subsidies. After adding costs for refining, distribution, and markup, E85 can be profitable at around $2.50 / gallon. This corresponds to oil prices at around $65/barrel.

    Ethanol Myth #3: Ethanol will affect our food supply.
    Reality: Again, only true for Corn Ethanol. Energy crops can grow in areas that are not viable for raising food crops. Ethanol can also be made from Crop Residue, Municipal Waste, and Forest/Mill biomass.
    http://www.coskata.com/ethanol/index.asp?source=D77DE2FB-67A8-4D6B-81B5-B138725EFB70

    Ethanol Myth #4: Energy Crops can’t be viable long-term without fertilizer.
    Reality: After Ethanol is extracted from energy crops, there is a lot of leftover biomass. This leftover substance is perfect for soil remediation.

    Ethanol Myth #5: Gas stations aren’t selling E85 now, so why would they in the future?
    Reality: Today, only a very small percentage of cars on the road can run on E85, so most gas station owners can’t afford to dedicate a pump to E85. A federal mandate that all new cars are FlexFuel would change that in a hurry.

    Ethanol Myth #6: We can never make enough Ethanol to completely replace gasoline, so Ethanol is not viable.
    Reality: The first part may be true. We may never be able to make enough Ethanol to completely replace gasoline. But why would that make Ethanol not viable? If we can replace 35% of our gasoline with Ethanol, and 80% of our gasoline with EREVs, that adds up to 115%, more than enough to completely replace gasoline.

    Ethanol Myth #7: Cellulosic ethanol is not ready. More research needed.
    Reality: Cellulosic gasification is already being scaled up. The only major impediment for scaling up the current methods is volatile gas prices. If gas goes below $2/gallon, then any investment in large scale ethanol production would go bankrupt. A gasoline floor tax of $2.50/gallon would solve this easily.
    LightHouseFacility2.jpg

    Bottom line: The combination of EREVs and Ethanol can give us a zero emission solution using our current infrastructure of 110v home outlets and liquid fuel filling stations. What’s not to like?


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:23 am)

    Hmm, not really any new info on Volt Gen 2. I dont think they can change the body design too much, because they need to keep the Cd. They could get a bench seat in the back by reconfiguring the battery shape. 40miles AER will stay. Hopefully less more efficient cells will be implemented. This should lower cost (and charging time). I’m really looking forward to finding out more, about what changes are planned.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:25 am)

    Jim in PA: Why does the $700 million of development that went into the car have to be recouped??? Didn’t bankruptcy and reorganization jettison old debt like this? Can someone clear this up for me?

    And it seems like a lot of that cost can be recouped over the next 20 years. Its not like they are going to throw this technology away now that the Volt has been built. They used knowledge from the EV1 to help design the Volt. Technically Volt sales are also paying for EV1 R&D.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:32 am)

    Tom: Ok we know it costs about $40,000 to build and the battery is about $10,000 so there is a lot of cost in the $30,000 balance that can be removed when they make money on the Cruse with the same ICE .

    Exactly. Many people miss this point.

    Why the Volt Will Cost $40,000
    http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/04/why-the-volt-will-cost-40000/
    “It was determined during development that the Volt would need many specialized and custom components including an expensive drivetrain, microprocessor controllers, and electrified AC compressor and brakes. Parts like these were not easy to find or cheap in the supplier market.

    “You have to go to suppliers that you think have the experience, the capability and the manufacturing scale to do this,” said GM VP Jon Lauckner, co-creator of the Volt. “In many cases, it’s less than the number of fingers on your hand, with some fingers to spare.””

    In other words, as more of these parts are produced, more suppliers will want to build them, and they’ll figure out ways to make them cheaper and more reliable, in order to compete.
    .


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:38 am)

    kdawg: Hmm, not really any new info on Volt Gen 2.

    The article 5-6 years, so expect Volt Gen 2 in 2016. But they will improve the Gen 1 Volt design every year.

    Bottom line: Expect significant evolutionary improvements in Gen 1 near term.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:43 am)

    Schmeltz: Just curious…what is the “solidstate” battery technology you mentioned? Is that Lithium Air or something different?  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Solid State would be referring to some type of Ultra Capacitor Device as opposed to a Chemical battery storage device.

    i.e. EEStore

    Schmeltz,


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:44 am)

    Dave G: There’s a lot of misinformation about ethanol:Ethanol Myth #1: It takes around 1 gallon of oil to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol.Reality: This is only for Corn Ethanol. Other sources of Ethanol use little or no fossil fuels.Ethanol Myth #2: Ethanol will never be cost effective without subsidies.Reality: Raw Ethanol can be produced for around $1/gallon without subsidies. After adding costs for refining, distribution, and markup, E85 can be profitable at around $2.50 / gallon. This corresponds to oil prices at around $65/barrel.Ethanol Myth #3: Ethanol will affect our food supply.Reality: Again, only true for Corn Ethanol. Energy crops can grow in areas that are not viable for raising food crops. Ethanol can also be made from Crop Residue, Municipal Waste, and Forest/Mill biomass.http://www.coskata.com/ethanol/index.asp?source=D77DE2FB-67A8-4D6B-81B5-B138725EFB70Ethanol Myth #4: Energy Crops can’t be viable long-term without fertilizer.Reality: After Ethanol is extracted from energy crops, there is a lot of leftover biomass. This leftover substance is perfect for soil remediation.Ethanol Myth #5: Gas stations aren’t selling E85 now, so why would they in the future?Reality: Today, only a very small percentage of cars on the road can run on E85, so most gas station owners can’t afford to dedicate a pump to E85. A federal mandate that all new cars are FlexFuel would change that in a hurry.Ethanol Myth #6: We can never make enough Ethanol to completely replace gasoline, so Ethanol is not viable.Reality: The first part may be true. We may never be able to make enough Ethanol to completely replace gasoline. But why would that make Ethanol not viable? If we can replace 35% of our gasoline with Ethanol, and 80% of our gasoline with EREVs, that adds up to 115%, more than enough to completely replace gasoline.Ethanol Myth #7: Cellulosic ethanol is not ready. More research needed.Reality: Cellulosic gasification is already being scaled up. The only major impediment for scaling up the current methods is volatile gas prices. If gas goes below $2/gallon, then any investment in large scale ethanol production would go bankrupt. A gasoline floor tax of $2.50/gallon would solve this easily.Bottom line: The combination of EREVs and Ethanol can give us a zero emission solution using our current infrastructure of 110v home outlets and liquid fuel filling stations. What’s not to like?  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Impressive post, mythbuster.

    But can I get drunk on it? :^0


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:49 am)

    Loboc: That is IF the new Congress lets the credit continue

    Realistically nothing significant will happen with the Congress. All the puff if a joke. The tax credits are part of what are called “tax expenditures” which include things like the mortgage tax deduction and oil and gas depletion allowance. All the talk about reducing the budget without action on these things is impossible, and all the talk about ending them is just that, talk. The only possibility is that the House might vote for cuts knowing that nothing will happen in the Senate where all legislation goes to die.

    My favorite here is the threat not to raise the debt ceiling. That hasn’t been very well thought through. As soon as the Social Security and Medicare checks stop, which they would, you’re going to see old people chasing their representatives around the Capital and some very quick action. The only funny thing is that my guess would be that you’ll have a lot of old people shouting and screaming in support of not raising the ceiling until they figure out that the checks which will not be in the mail will be theirs. Then they’ll change their view 180 degrees in about 1 nanosecond. Ba ha ha ha ha ha!

    More seriously, you can’t as a matter of fairness just end tax expenditures. For example, if a tax expenditure has induced a car company to invest a billion dollars in EVs, or a home owner to buy a house based on getting a tax deduction for their mortgage, or an oil company to drill a well, it’s not fair to pull the expenditure since they’ve already acted counting on the expenditure. You have to end it prospectively. That’s easy for some things like house purchases but a lot harder for something like an EV project. IOW the time horizon for ending the expenditures have to be fairly long, which is one of the reasons why ax expenditures are easy to pass and hard to repeal.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:55 am)

    Don’t forget the first CY production may only be 10,000ish as GM apparently has always been using the term ‘ramp up.’

    As to questioning current advertising for a product that is available to only that 10,000 or so next year, well, that’s the whole point of marketing.

    The most successful advertising is that which creates more demand than available supply for any given product.

    It seems as though GM is focused on creating a market not for a new car, but for a new type of mobility. Limited availability is beside the point, as they’re selling a concept as much or more than the car itself.

    Likely, GM believes that only when the general public understands and accepts the idea of EREV’s and yes EV’s will it be in a position to extend this new propulsion system to other platforms.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:57 am)

    A decision at a large company like GM isn’t made until it is made. The production manager will only tell you what the current plan is. If the company is considering making a change that change won’t be discussed until the change is actually made. I’ve been involved in many decisions at my company and the actual change of plans really isn’t final until the official announcement is made.

    GM could very well be considering upping production for the Volt and the range of that increase is probably varying from a few thousand the tens of thousands. No one at GM knows the actual number because they really haven’t decided what that number will be. Once the decision is made, the production plans will be adjusted accordingly.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:03 am)

    N Riley: This bit about no profit or very little on each Volt sold is somewhat wrong in a lot of cases. How many of Volt owners will opt for the options like some of the paint colors that cost as much as $995.00 (fixed that) extra? Or the optional wheels? Or the premium interior? Or the back-up camera? Each of these options are expensive and will contain considerable profit.

    That’s my plan:
    White Diamond – $995
    Premium Trim – $1395
    Park Assist – $695
    Car Cover ~ $350
    Storage Barrier – $99
    Cargo Net – $45
    Extra 120V Cord – ? (maybe $200 ?)
    ———————————————-
    Extras ~ $3780

    Total ~ $44,870 plus tax

    But I can’t get my order in – yet.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:06 am)

    Can anybody make sense in what is being released from GM? The issue on the Volt is like a rollercoaster.

    Get it together GM! Youv’e got a good idea, now make it work also, it wouln’t be a bad idea to make a little more affordable if you want the commoner to drive it.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:11 am)

    Dave G: Ethanol Myth #7: Cellulosic ethanol is not ready. More research needed.

    The problem is that since time immemorial plants have been evolving ways to protect their fuel sources (cellulose) from animals who want the fuel. After a few hundred million years they’ve gotten very good at it. As a consequence, it takes a lot of energy to extract the fuel bound to the unwanted parts of the plant — the lignin. Until we have either (1) a way to separate the lignin from the cellulose a lot more effectively or (2) a synthetic plant that doesn’t bind the fuel to lignin, using fuels extracted from lignocellulose as a primary transportation fuel isn’t happening.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:12 am)

    Nick D: Solid State would be referring to some type of Ultra Capacitor Device as opposed to a Chemical battery storage device.
    i.e. EEStore

    Wow….Is Dan Ackerson then implying that ultra-capacitors are for real then? Or are we reading too much into this?


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:13 am)

    barry252: Please delete comment #13.It’s truly offensive.    

    I am sorry I didn’t get to it sooner. That comment has been deleted. Hate language is not ever allowed on this site


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:20 am)

    Schmeltz:
    Just curious…what is the “solidstate” battery technology you mentioned?Is that Lithium Air or something different?    

    Some time ago, the battery engineers at GM where saying ‘solidstate’ when describing their GenIII battery. No other details were given.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:29 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:29 am)

    Although the Volt seems like a great car – and one I would by if it were in my price range – I cannot help but think most of the followers on this website are being mesmerized by the shiniest, newest bauble under the Christmas tree. Technology that increases driving efficiency is a laudible goal that may help to reduce dependence on “foreign oil”. But let’s face it, by FAR the most effective solution – albeit the least sexy – is to reduce consumption. Wouldn’t it be great if people learned to modify their lifestyles to reduce the number of hours sitting behind a wheel? North Americans are obese, drive more than any other global region, use more energy per capita, and generally use less mass transit. More cars, regardless of their energy source, will not solve our problems – regardless of how shiny they are.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:31 am)

    Dave G:
    I think a lower trim level would be great!And I don’t see how it would raise the price of the current trim level.>    

    I thought the Insight was already at a low trim level. What Honda needs to do is to correct that ugly and really cheap looking grey toned front grille – either paint it body color or give it a chromed treatment.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:33 am)

    N Riley: Well, no Volt for me in 2011 or most of 2012 it looks like, unless I want to go to one of the lucky states and hope to squeeze in a line for an early 2012 model in early 2012. I don’t see that happening.

    Until people actually go to the dealer and actually order the car, GM won’t increase production.

    Anybody wanting a Volt anytime in the next few years needs to go to their dealer and express their plans by making a deposit. Only with firm commitments from their dealers can GM justify any production increases.

    Any business that has firm orders will somehow, someway, even if it hurts, get that product out to paying customers.

    /btw. I canceled my LEAF reservation. It doesn’t make sense for me if it doesn’t have 100 miles range. My mileage is scary close to Lyle’s log. Those 102 and 114 mile days need to be covered by my daily driver.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:35 am)

    JohnK: The 2011 MY build has for some time been stated at 10,000 units. Most cars will begin the 2012 MY in July of 2011 with a two week model change over period.

    koz: What does this mean in layman’s english? 200, 10k, 15k? 2011 model year, calendar year?

    #4 & #7

    You guys raise a really important question. Is the 10K number for “2011″ for the MY or the CY? I had always thought that they meant CY 2011. If it means that the larger 2012 production actually begins at the end of the 2011 MY, that would be really good news.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:37 am)

    Texas: One of the most important things is to get the weight down. This will save batteries, performance, etc. Less is more in this game.

    #11

    Amen! +1


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:39 am)

    T 1: Impressive post, mythbuster.But can I get drunk on it? :^0  (Quote)  (Reply)

    You can on pure ethanol, but the commercial version has some additives that gives it an extremely bad taste, and you don’t want to get drunk on that. Make your own “moonshine” so you can fuel your E85 Volt and yourself, but not at the same time!

    Raymond


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:40 am)

    All I can say is I was told by Rob Peterson 10,000 CY 2011


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:41 am)

    If Chevrolet Cruze (on which body Volt is based) costs $18,000, Hybrid components costs $7,000 (judging by other Hybrids) and the Volt battery costs $8,000-$10,000 (as was reported here) then the Volt cost should be less than (less because Hybrid components include Hybrid battery)
    $18,000 + $7,000 + $8,000-$10,000 = $33,000 – $35,000

    $33,000 – $35,000 – is the price that includes a profit so the current Volt’s price of $41,000 includes plenty of profit.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:42 am)

    John: Is he saying (hinting?) that the 2011 build plan is set in stone?No increase over the 15K?The CEO hinted on looking for ways to improve it but that may then mean the 2012 model year, correct?I hear Volt ads on NPR almost every 15 minutes.I still don’t get the advertising spend for a product that is nearly impossible to buy.Unless they somehow will build 100,000 2012 models.It’s the beginning of a new era.The problem they have is they may have not learned how to judge demand (high) based on years of interest in Hybrids and the potential for a hot growth product based on green desires, oil independence and saving costs.The concept of the Volt just makes sense.It should be made in quantities that are talked about for the Cruze and sold at $30K with a $3500 tax rebate.They’d be able to sell 200K units a year and crush the competition.    

    The reason they advertise it on NPR so much is even though no one will be able to buy them until 2012 (since 2011 is sold out and even in 2012 they’ll be bought up within days advertising or no) is because they’re trying to garner support and excitement as most republicans were furious about GM’s bail out. It’s not about selling cars. Overall I believe GM’s hope for the future of the Volt is more genuine than greenwashing or Haloism, but in these quantities, that’s gotta be the main benefit of it (we know they’re not making much money off of them).

    With 200,000 people already signed up wanting a Volt with most people not even knowing they exist, let alone having ever driven one. I am waiting for the outrage to shoot up when people start complaining that GM promised the country Volts and they’re impossible to get your hands on. Watch as gas prices keep creeping up and up, or shoot up another $1/gallon within a few weeks again and people want an alternative to paying whatever the oil companies want when they’re making $40 billion/year, or when there’s another terrorist attack from insurgents being funded by oil, and this whole thing blows up in GM’s face. 2013 is a long ways away and even then were only going to see 60,000 a year did they say, still no where near demand levels?


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:44 am)

    Ethanol Myth #3: Ethanol will affect our food supply.
    Reality: Again, only true for Corn Ethanol.Energy crops can grow in areas that are not viable for raising food crops.Ethanol can also be made from Crop Residue, Municipal Waste, and Forest/Mill biomass.
    http://www.coskata.com/ethanol/index.asp?source=D77DE2FB-67A8-4D6B-81B5-B138725EFB70Ethanol Myth #4: Energy Crops can’t be viable long-term without fertilizer.
    Reality: After Ethanol is extracted from energy crops, there is a lot of leftover biomass.This leftover substance is perfect for soil remediation.

    I agree your answers are true, I wouldn’t call them reality though. Currently the vast majority of ethanol in the US comes from corn. Yes, the leftover biomass can be used for soil remediation, same as for any food crop, but the reality is it is cheaper/easier for farmers to use petroleum based fertilizers than the leftover biomass.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:45 am)

    Ethanol

    Modern ethanol distillers like the Poet plants use about 1 gallon of oil to make about 20 gallons of ethanol (tractors, combines), but they do use lots of natural gas. Corn ethanol is an effective way of transforming the plentiful NG that we have to a liquid fuel, with assistance from the sun.. I believe it has an energy return of 250% over the energy contained in the natural gas.. that energy could be reduced if we stopped mixing it with gasoline, that requires a very dry ethanol and it is energy intensive to dry it. Even more efficient than distilling the ethanol would simply be to gasify it and directly synthesize methanol/ethanol dry mixes.. but there is no mandate for methanol in our gasoline.. the gasifiers could also handle all the cellulosic corn waste and even coal during drought times. All kinds of hydrocarbon fuels can be made once you gasify organic materials.

    If you could place an ethanol plant near a nuclear/coal plant then you could make free use of the plentiful heat available.. big savings there.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:54 am)

    Johnny Canuck: But let’s face it, by FAR the most effective solution – albeit the least sexy – is to reduce consumption. Wouldn’t it be great if people learned to modify their lifestyles to reduce the number of hours sitting behind a wheel? North Americans are obese, drive more than any other global region, use more energy per capita, and generally use less mass transit. More cars, regardless of their energy source, will not solve our problems – regardless of how shiny they are.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    I lived in New York City, and my parents and I never needed a car in the eleven years I lived there. The subway is great and has been improving, and I love to walk every day (I can walk up to three miles per hour). But in most of the other States I have visited (especially California, Florida, and Texas) you do neeed a vehicle to move around. So if we had to pay more to travel privately, we will travel less and use more public transportation. Where I live now is far from where I work, and the local electric train has no station close enough, so I do need a vehicle every day. But I wish for a great electric car, so this is why I want to buy a Volt, and maybe others here feel and think the same as I do. For now, I keep using my GM vehicles for at least 15 years (my present Buick is 16 years old), so I spend less on new vehicles, and I save more by doing my own maintenance.

    If someone invents the matter transporter (from Star Trek) in this century, then our future needs of transportation will be solved!

    Raymond


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:55 am)

    Dave G: If we can replace 35% of our gasoline with Ethanol, and 80% of our gasoline with EREVs, that adds up to 115%, more than enough to completely replace gasoline.

    Um.. There’s a little discrepancy here. Ya can’t add up the savings to get the net.

    A 35% reduction on top of an 80% reduction still leaves 13% that is gasoline. And that’s the EREVs. The regular cars (20% in your example) will still be using 65% gasoline.

    While I’d like to see 80% market penetration by EVs, that’s not going to happen in our lifetimes.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:01 pm)

    JeremyK: Jim I,
    I don’t see how those costs would have been absolved during the bankruptcy process.All of the assets that went into the development of the Volt were carried into the “new” GM….along with their associated costs.    

    =================================

    No, GM got to keep the assets and jettison the liabilities. That is why people were so upset with the new 333 Bankruptcy Laws. The people that owned stock got nothing, but GM got to keep all the assets of plants and technology and walk away from all of the debt. It was a really good deal for them, IMHO. This was discussed at length on this forum during that time.

    So why are they even mentioning the development costs? Only what was incurred after the new GM was created would be current debt. And most of the development of the Volt was done before the bankruptcy.

    I am completely in favor of the Volt, and I can’t wait to be able to order one from my local dealer, but double talk like this needs to brought out into the open…..


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    John: I hear Volt ads on NPR almost every 15 minutes. I still don’t get the advertising spend for a product that is nearly impossible to buy.

    They are not *really* advertising the Volt. They are rebuilding their image as the industry leader and want to reaffirm their technological savoir faire.

    Also, it’s always good to have a lot of people interested in an exclusive product you have. If interest of the public is sustained, they will ramp up.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:05 pm)

    I believe if they had transfered the expenses of developing the Volt IP to Old GM, then it would belong to Old GM.. and saleable to anyone with cash.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:06 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Okay. Now I’m bummed again. In the past month, GM has announced production increases and I have been happily taking orders and deposits. Now, we are just days away from receiving our first car, with appointments to show it off to government officials: Mayors, City Councilmen, Members of State Assembly, and my wife, and now I can only tell all of them that we can take their order for a 2012. Please wait. Rats.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    I thought they were just saying that they would be trying to double or triple production.. battery delivery was the problem… well GM and A123 should be cooperating .. .I’d rather see A123 anyway.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:08 pm)

    Yesterday’s topic with greater detail. This flagship marque being sold out 18 months downstream from day one – gets everybody’s attention. Certainly Leadership doesn’t want to throw cold water over yesterday’s PR on its study to increase production. What GM said is its not making a lot of profit per VOLT – GM did not say its losing money.

    Clearly, battery availability is the critical path to increasing production. What’s not so clear is just how much battery capability GM plans for other (including exporting) EV – ER’s thereby diverting VOLT.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:11 pm)

    Baltimore17: Some things become optional on a lower-price base model including navigation, the Bose audio, alloy wheels and the two-tone (black roof) paint — but the combined cost of the options and base price rises above $41K.

    There should be ways to custom your Volt exactly as you wish since we are going, for YEARS, to have to order the thing and wait for it to be manufactured to specifications. That would reduce cost.

    I, for one, can do without the navigation system, the backup cam, the leather seats, the alloy wheels and probably a few more things as long as the core remains high quality.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:12 pm)

    Dave G: Bottom line: The combination of EREVs and Ethanol can give us a zero emission solution using our current infrastructure of 110v home outlets and liquid fuel filling stations. What’s not to like?

    Bottom line is that this is the mis-information.

    What’s not to like? I don’t like it because you are still converting one thing (trash) into another (ethanol) and that takes mega energy. You are still burning a carbon-based liquid to generate work which is a waste of 75% of the energy as heat.

    Take that same energy and charge electric cars. The conversion losses are much, much less.

    There’s no free lunch in physics.


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    barry252

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:12 pm)

    barry252: Please delete comment #13. It’s truly offensive.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Thank you! It’s ok to remove mine too! (#20)


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:14 pm)

    :) So in today’s news, GM”s Leader states the obvious. We plan to make a profit on the Volt
    Who wudda thunk? ;)


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    Bungoman

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:15 pm)

    EricLG,

    LOL! Laugh at the sad clown formerly known as Dagwood. Hey Daggy, you failed to comment on the Prius recall from the other day. Step up my boy, you’ve been called out!


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:23 pm)

    Loboc: GM has a lot of tricks up her sleeve that we don’t know about. Hints at future (solidstate) battery technology are very interesting.

    Schmeltz: Just curious…what is the “solidstate” battery technology you mentioned? Is that Lithium Air or something different?

    This is what I think they are talking about:

    http://www.ceramatec.com/technology/ceramic-solid-state-ionic-technologies/advanced-energy-storage/solid-electrolyte-batteries.php

    1) Note that some of the batteries they’re discussing include Lithium Ion, and operate at “normal” temperatures.

    2) Note that there is a “strategic partner.” Hmmm. Who could that be?

    3) Ceramatec is a fully US-owned company with all of it’s operations here.

    4) They are also reportedly working on a ceramic separator which would be used in a process to make Hydrogen (we all know a car company which has still not given up on H2 fuel cells, even though it is poised to own the plug-in business. See #2, above).

    Sorry if that lets ‘the cat out of the bag,’ GM; but it looks to me like you’re well on your way.

    .


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    Tall Pete

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    Yegor: $33,000 – $35,000 – is the price that includes a profit so the current Volt’s price of $41,000 includes plenty of profit.

    Not if you factor in the cost of development, which will be lower for each unit as they ramp up.


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    freetimecreations

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:34 pm)

    Johnny Canuck,

    Can’t the U.S. try and do both, build cars that use less gasoline and on some other website tout the benefits of mass transit?


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    Yegor

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    GM did not make a single dollar out of Volt although it invested $700 million in development costs.

    Yet it did not prevent GM to make a $4 Billion Pension Plan Contribution just today:

    http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/news/news_detail.brand_gm.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2010/Dec/1202_pension

    I think GM is doing fine – for some reason it exaggerates Volt costs. Nissan Leaf costs only $32,800 but it has a much bigger battery.


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    Dave G

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:39 pm)

    Loboc: While I’d like to see 80% market penetration by EVs, that’s not going to happen in our lifetimes.

    Within 15-20 years, I believe the vast majority of all new passenger vehicles will be EREVs. That alone will replace 80% of our gasoline consumption.

    So that only leaves 20% of our current gasoline consumption to deal with, and biofuels can cover that easily, without any affect on food supply, using our current infrastructure of 110 volt outlets and liquid fuel filling stations.

    In other words, I believe pure BEVs are unnecessary, since the combination of EREVs and biofuels solves the same problem much more effectively.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:49 pm)

    Loboc: What’s not to like? I don’t like it because you are still converting one thing (trash) into another (ethanol) and that takes mega energy …

    This is not right. The process does not require any energy, other than the bio-mass itself. In fact, the process generates enough extra heat to run a small electric power plant. And it’s all carbon neutral, since the only fuel source is bio-mass.

    You should check out the details:
    http://www.coskata.com/process/


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    Herm

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:53 pm)

    Tall Pete:
    There should be ways to custom your Volt exactly as you wish since we are going, for YEARS, to have to order the thing and wait for it to be manufactured to specifications. That would reduce cost.
    I, for one, can do without the navigation system, the backup cam, the leather seats, the alloy wheels and probably a few more things as long as the core remains high quality.

    The alloy wheels are good for extending the range..less energy needed to accelerate lighter wheels..


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:57 pm)

    DonC: Until we have either (1) a way to separate the lignin from the cellulose a lot more effectively or (2) a synthetic plant that doesn’t bind the fuel to lignin, using fuels extracted from lignocellulose as a primary transportation fuel isn’t happening.

    You’re talking about direct cellulosic fermentation. Cellulosic gasification is totally different. It’s real, and it’s here now. You should check it out.

    Look at the story of the Three Little Pigs. The first pig built his house out of straw. That obviously didn’t work. So what’t the lesson? Are all houses bad? Should we just forget about houses, and live in holes? No. There are many ways to build houses, and some of those work really well.

    Similarly, there are many ways to produce ethanol, some of those work really well.
    .


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (12:58 pm)

    Raymondjram: You can on pure ethanol, but the commercial version has some additives that gives it an extremely bad taste, and you don’t want to get drunk on that. Make your own “moonshine” so you can fuel your E85 Volt and yourself, but not at the same time!Raymond  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Thanks. So it tastes like Jagermeister?


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:02 pm)

    Herm: The alloy wheels are good for extending the range..less energy needed to accelerate lighter wheels

    I’ve heard various opinions on this, and I’m not sure who to believe.

    Some people say that modern steel wheels are not significantly heavier that alloy wheels, they’re just not as attractive.

    True? False? Anyone know for sure?


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    EricLeGay

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    Bungoman: EricLG, LOL! Laugh at the sad clown formerly known as Dagwood. Hey Daggy, you failed to comment on the Prius recall from the other day. Step up my boy, you’ve been called out!  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Who told lil le gay that he could raise his head and speak? My bottle of beer almost fell off!


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    T 1: So it tastes like Jagermeister?

    A friend of mine loves that stuff. Go figure.


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    nuclearboy

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:06 pm)

    EricLG: Now I am really bored. Other than pie-in-the-sky nebulous hopes, is there anything that looks like near future technology coming to the car ?
    This sounds like more GM ‘targets’, and we know how those turn out.

    Yesterday I was in a negative mood and called our boy Eric “Tokyo Rose” due to his apparent hatred of US corporations and apparent love of Japanese companies. After reading todays news and his post, I think Bagdad Bob is a better name.

    While Eric is bored and looking for “near future” technology, the “real future” technology volt is driving by on the streets.

    Remember Bagdad Bob (“The Americans are no where near bagdad” .. US Tank rolls by in background and Bobs map board shakes with an explosion… I repeat, the US forces are not in Bagdad…)


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:08 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Please wait.

    Turns out that reciting the “too little, too slowly” concern really was an effort to help.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:17 pm)

    Herm:
    The alloy wheels are good for extending the range..less energy needed to accelerate lighter wheels..    

    Aren’t the choices 1) painted aluminum and 2) polished aluminum?


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:19 pm)

    Johnny Canuck: North Americans are obese

    Excuse me?

    I’m 6’1″, weigh 185 and wear an 18 34/35 shirt. My son is 6’2″, weighs 180 and benches 340lbs. My grandson is 6’3″ and weighs 165.

    If these numbers amount to ‘obese’ then the definition is wrong in the Canuck dictionary.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:32 pm)

    john1701a: “too little, too slowly”

    Is that what your wife tells you, John?

    .


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:32 pm)

    Loboc:
    Excuse me?I’m 6′1″, weigh 185 and wear an 18 34/35 shirt. My son is 6′2″, weighs 180 and benches 340lbs. My grandson is 6′3″ and weighs 165.If these numbers amount to ‘obese’ then the definition is wrong in the Canuck dictionary.    

    Yeah, i’m obese. According to that Damn Wii game when I did the bio’s.

    Go Volt!!!!
    Go EV!
    Go to Hell OPEC!!


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    freetimecreations,

    Sounds good to me.

    But where are the billion dollar subsidies/bailouts for mass transit alternatives? I truly think the Volt is a great idea, but North Americans (and yes, that includes Canadians) need to consume less. Transit vehicles that move one or two people at a time (aside from bicycles) need to be minimized.

    But hey, let’s build another highway and get people moving! If it worked for our grandparents, it must work for us.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (1:54 pm)

    Dave G: The process does not require any energy, other than the bio-mass itself. In fact, the process generates enough extra heat to run a small electric power plant. And it’s all carbon neutral, since the only fuel source is bio-mass.

    Lol. Like the company making the ethanol is going to be forthcoming about their energy use.

    Nowhere on that page does it state the energy consumed. Gasification and distillation both take huge amounts of energy. Maintaining an environment for the biological process (yeast or organism) conversion to alcohol takes energy.

    Here is a quote from another page: “Coskata’s process can produce up to 7.7 times more energy than the fossil energy input used to make the ethanol.” (my bold)

    They are using FOSSIL ENERGY in the process! Getting that biomass gathered and transported is not energy neutral either. Once you get it made, transporting and mixing with gasoline takes even more energy.

    Do a garbage-pail to wheels energy audit. You may change your mind about the ‘myths’ posted.

    Look, I’m from the Ozarks. We know a little bit about alcohol production. It ain’t all that easy.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:00 pm)

    Loboc,

    I think it should be obvious that not every single person in NA is obese. I am happy that your family can bench press 300+ pounds, although I would be more impressed by your running times as that is a better indication of cardiovascular fitness and a better predictor of heart disease risk.
    North Americans, as a statistical whole, are more obese than at any time in history. Check out the epidemiological data from your CDC if you don’t believe me. What is even more scary is that the acceleration in the rate of obesity is increasing, and that the morbidly obese group is the fastest growing cohort of all overweight categories.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:06 pm)

    MichaelH:
    Aren’t the choices 1) painted aluminum and 2) polished aluminum?

    The future low cost version may offer steel wheels, or even cast aluminum.. vs the current forged aluminum wheels.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:09 pm)

    Joe: I have been enthusiastically following the Volt for over 2 years.It is a great car.In my situation, I do not need the extended range.I would be happy with a less expensive car that had the 100 mile range.I am hoping that GM will take the Cruze and make it electric similar to the Leaf for a cost of around $25K.I really think this would sell. Does anyone know when this will happen?    

    Well in that case, why not just get the Leaf then? I’m all for the Volt but if the Leaf works better for you then might as well. But you’re not going to find an 100 mile range BEV for $25K for a long time. The battery alone would cost $15K.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:14 pm)

    Dave G: You’re talking about direct cellulosic fermentation. Cellulosic gasification is totally different. It’s real, and it’s here now. You should check it out.

    I have to bring you down from your ethanol high.. read this:

    http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/boards/r-squared-blog-posts/cellulosic-ethanol-reality-begins-to-set-in/#p7054


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:26 pm)

    Dave G: You’re talking about direct cellulosic fermentation. Cellulosic gasification is totally different. It’s real, and it’s here now. You should check it out.

    Cellulosic gasification is something of a misnomer. Biomass gasification would be more accurate. Of course the problem here is that gasification isn’t limited to biomass and, in fact, the low energy to volume ratio of biomass means it’s cheaper and easier to use natural gas or even coal as the feedstock.


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    John W (Tampa)

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:33 pm)

    A friend of mine said to me, why are you so excited about the Volt, isn’t it just another hybrid..

    I said back

    Show me a hybrid out there where you can fill up the tank with the power of the wind or the warmth of the sun..


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:33 pm)

    Johnny Canuck: Wouldn’t it be great if people learned to modify their lifestyles to reduce the number of hours sitting behind a wheel?

    Yes, that would be great, what solution are you proposing? Oh that’s right, you don’t have a solution you just like to dream about pie-in-the-sky scenarios.

    Wouldn’t it be great if there were no wars or terrorism?
    Wouldn’t it be great if there was no crime?
    Wouldn’t it be great if people weren’t so obsessed about money?
    Wouldn’t it be great if everyone was happy?
    Wouldn’t it be great if you didn’t have to worry about disease or death?

    … and my personal favorite:

    Wouldn’t it be great if people stopped bitching and moaning and instead did something productive?

    Ah, how nice it is to dream!


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:36 pm)

    There’s a bit of discrepancy between yesterday’s article and todays. Yesterday – huge hope and the Akerson comment that double or triple Volt production hikes were being considered. Today? Not so much. 2012 – 2013 anybody? Sad.

    It’s still a bit of a roller coaster out there people, and this is why I’ll remain positive, yet a realist all the same. Not until GM sells Volts in all states in numbers where I can buy one will I fully believe GM is repentent and a “new” bunch representing a “new” company with “new” thought. GM’s dependence upon oil investors and investments still has me sitting and watching, and not getting too excited with every grain of news that flows down the belt.

    Since IPO we have daily heard the “news” that Volt’s cost is very near selling price. This is no surprise to anyone in the know, and the entire Volt plan seems to be mirroring Prius’s history almost to a tee. We know Toyota lost money on Prius for a couple years until it exploded into record profits for a model line. The GM talk about a Volt plan seems to be identical, albeit differing by selling Chevrolet Volts at Chevy dealers down the street in Europe from the Vauxhall-Opel dealerships selling Amperas. This announcement had me scratching my head. The relationship between GM and Opel seems more complex than a Hollywood marraige.

    Today’s GM-speak seems to me that they are being overly cautious about Volt’s success. Optimistically I do think the same process will be acted out again on these shores – Volt being called for in droves by a public sick of oil, and GM seeing it’s global success as the signal to “PUMP OUT THE VOLTS” ( China taking the place that America had in Prius’s historical rise to mass production and new lines and factories being hurriedly built to meet need. ).

    Sitting in Seattle – with a 2007 Prius waiting for a new home – but it will seemingly be part of our family another….two years…. :( while GM slowly comes to the realization they can sell them in numbers thus realizing sweet profits from the economies of scale.

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:36 pm)

    Johnny Canuck,

    Why I ask can’t science enable all of us to consume as many renewable resources as possible? There’s no reason we can’t have an even higher standard of living and simply reuse and recycle everything.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:41 pm)

    Yegor: If Chevrolet Cruze (on which body Volt is based) costs $18,000, Hybrid components costs $7,000 (judging by other Hybrids) and the Volt battery costs $8,000-$10,000 (as was reported here) then the Volt cost should be less than (less because Hybrid components include Hybrid battery)
    $18,000 + $7,000 + $8,000-$10,000 = $33,000 – $35,000$33,000 – $35,000 – is the price that includes a profit so the current Volt’s price of$41,000 includes plenty of profit.    

    Yes, except you forgot large and powerful electric motors (hybrid ones are small and puny by comparison), sophisticated electronic controls and BMS (battery management system), specialized comfort systems designed to work in electric only mode, premium features included in the base model which are not included in the base Cruze model … what else am I forgetting? Those can easily make up the remaining $5000 – $8000 difference.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (2:59 pm)

    Johnny Canuck: I think it should be obvious that not every single person in NA is obese.

    It’s not obvious from generalizations about the issue. Any time you say ‘on average’ you are talking about a bell curve. (You even said ‘statistical’ in your reply.)

    I object to the generalization that all north Americans are fat since it’s just not true. I also object to the assumption that overweight = lazy.

    Check productivity statistics as well.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (3:02 pm)

    JeremyK: GM can afford to take a loss for a short period of time on a limited number of vehicles, but they need to be making money on each car by the time they ramp up to 2012/2013 levels.Those waiting for a Gen II price decrease may be very disappointed. The price will likely never be lower than the “after rebate” cost of $33K. Since the car isn’t profitable right now, most of the cost savings GM is working on will go toward making the car profitable.GM is going to have to take $7500 out of each vehicle just to offset the tax rebate after it expires.Even if they cut out $7500, they’ll still be making roughly the same profit that they are right now, which is little/none.Granted, to the consumer, financing a car at $33K is very different than financing a car at $41K and waiting for the tax rebate.As the (Wards.com) articles states, typical design cycles are 5-6 years. During that time the Volt will go through incremental cost reductions and improvements, but the overall powertrain will remain essentially the same as it is today. We’re talking 2016-2017 for a Gen II Volt, which is probably also about the same time (or just after) they’ve sold 200,000 units and the tax rebate is no longer available.If you want a Volt, I would suggest putting your order in now and not waiting for Gen II. The article states that even though the first ~15,000 units are already sold, there are no plans to change the ramp up schedule. So, even at the end of 2011, GM will have only produced about 15,000 Volts. Even with the planned increases in 2012 and beyond, the Volt is going to remain a very exclusive car for several more years.    

    I haven’t read all the comments yet today, but it’s becoming clear that most of this comment is correct. In fact, I’m forced to take it a step farther (not very unusual, huh?). I think that once the current orders are filled, GM should increase the Volt’s price to $50K. It would still be *very* likely that they could sell every one they make, and it’d be motivational to the decision makers at GM to make more Volts!. Limping along making a few bucks per unit can’t be floating their boats very high – and it shows in their continued low-ball production numbers. If instead they were making 15-20% profit per Volt, I’m just betting that they’d loosen up the production. Granted, it doesn’t put a Volt within my reach anytime soon, but given that the “Waiting until Gen II” strategy is becoming just as far-fetched, at least if they bumped up the price, there’d be more wheels on the road. (Sigh).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (3:12 pm)

    Loboc,

    I never used the word “lazy”.
    Furthermore, averages can be calculated from any population distribution, be it a normal, bimodal, or skewed. That has nothing to do with the fact that obesity is a problem (epidemic) in North America. It isn’t my opinion, it is a fact.
    http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/trends.html#State
    If you don’t want to believe your own country’s Centers for Disease Control, then you most certainly won’t be swayed by anything I have to say.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (3:22 pm)

    Please don’t take post #104 as me being pissed off or sour grapes.

    So GM has decided to roll out the Volt in a few markets and work out the kinks. I can understand this. I’m happy for those in our ranks who’ll be happily driving their Volts silently along – in “Electro Glide Mode”, 100% gas free, paving the way for the rest of us. I am a patient man.

    It won’t be for a few months anyway – until I’m pissed off. L :) L Naturally, there’ll be a point of disdain wherein I hop in the Prius to go for some groceries a couple miles down the highway and notice for the umpteenth time how short trips in a non-plugin hybrid like Prius result in horrid mileage numbers – many times 21 mpg! When that gas engine has to cut on to warm up the already warm cylinder head after 45 seconds and stays buzzing away as you crawl out of a parking lot, or in electric mode when you put the pressure of the weight of a guppie fin on the gas pedal and the gas engine springs to life. It’s during these times a few months from now, when us Washingtonians who still think of Volt as “unobtainium” will begin to feel the burn.

    For now, I’m thrilled Volts will be in the hands of paying customers and GM is still mulling over it’s plans.

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    freetimecreations

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (3:46 pm)

    Johnny Canuck: But where are the billion dollar subsidies/bailouts for mass transit alternatives?

    I’m guessing spent on Amtrack, and light rail and other mass transit alternatives.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (4:01 pm)

    freetimecreations:
    I’m guessing spent on Amtrack, and light rail and other mass transit alternatives.    

    A big chunk of that will prolly go to the “Bullet Train” voted on in brokeazz Kahl-ee-Forneee-yah.


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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (4:02 pm)

    Tagamet: Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!

    Hey Tag….
    Uhhhh…..
    The wheels are on the road bro!
    :-)


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    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (4:08 pm)

    Arizona should have been an original launch area. 2 fresh inquiries came in from Phoenix today. I’m happy to keep writing orders, but if all of 2011 production is sold, then any new fresh orders will just roll over to 2012, in which case out-of-state orders from AZ would just cancel once AZ opens up as the next ‘zone’ come next November.

    Having a backlog of waiting Volt customers is fine with me. I would prefer not to have my customers wait. I suppose there are worse problems to have. :/


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    Loboc

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (4:29 pm)

    Johnny Canuck:

    I believe it. I just don’t like it shoved in my face on a site where I came to discuss electric cars.


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    Unni

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (4:45 pm)

    GM started understanding the word : Agile : based on iterative and incremental development.

    page1-200px-Agile-Software-Development-Poster-En.pdf.jpg

    300px-Iterative_development_model_V2.jpg

    Great !!


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    Loboc

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (5:41 pm)

    Unni: GM started understanding the word : Agile : based on iterative and incremental development. Great !!    

    I hope not.

    All of the ‘Agile’ developers I know are cowboys. Deploy first and ask questions later. They are almost all web developers.

    Here’s what Agile means to developers I know:

    Agile: freedom to play with my code having no idea what the customer wants or needs and no need for pesky documentation.

    One of their sayings is a pseudo-quote attributed to Henry Ford: “If I asked the customers what they wanted, they would have said ‘A faster horse’.”


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    DonC

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (5:48 pm)

    Tagamet: I think that once the current orders are filled, GM should increase the Volt’s price to $50K.

    Supply and demand sets the price. I’m thinking that the dealers have already set the price and that this price will be, on average, somewhat over MSRP. But $50K for the base model would not result in a hot car.


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    DonC

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (5:50 pm)

    Loboc: All of the ‘Agile’ developers I know are cowboys. Deploy first and ask questions later. They are almost all web developers.

    At least 90% of all web sites are easily hackable because they don’t validate strings. Too time consuming for “agile” programmers.


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    T 1

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (5:54 pm)

    Loboc: I hope not.All of the ‘Agile’ developers I know are cowboys. Deploy first and ask questions later. They are almost all web developers.Here’s what Agile means to developers I know:Agile: freedom to play with my code having no idea what the customer wants or needs and no need for pesky documentation.One of their sayings is a pseudo-quote attributed to Henry Ford: “If I asked the customers what they wanted, they would have said ‘A faster horse’.”  (Quote)  (Reply)

    And all the ones I know are an extremely good fit for their companies, which want fast, low-problem development. They can’t slog along like a money-center bank does or the competition would eat ‘em up. Right tool for the job, as they say.


  121. 121
    Loboc

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (6:04 pm)

    T 1:
    And all the ones I know are an extremely good fit for their companies, which want fast, low-problem development.They can’t slog along like a money-center bank does or the competition would eat ‘em up.Right tool for the job, as they say.    

    Well I certainly wouldn’t use the ones I know to develop 10-million-lines of code that could potentially kill a customer if there is a defect.

    GM is using IBM technology to develop their code and cars now. I don’t recall ever seeing the word ‘Agile’ in any of the online feeds.


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    T 1

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (6:25 pm)

    Loboc: Well I certainly wouldn’t use the ones I know to develop 10-million-lines of code that could potentially kill a customer if there is a defect. GM is using IBM technology to develop their code and cars now. I don’t recall ever seeing the word ‘Agile’ in any of the online feeds.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    For the ones I know, 10 million lines might make them faint. They usually are making lots of small, very manageable changes every day. Subdivide and conquer (my words–I’m not a developer). And they work in pairs.


  123. 123
    Dave4664

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:24 pm)

    Johnny Canuck: Although the Volt seems like a great car – and one I would by if it were in my price range – I cannot help but think most of the followers on this website are being mesmerized by the shiniest, newest bauble under the Christmas tree. Technology that increases driving efficiency is a laudible goal that may help to reduce dependence on “foreign oil”. But let’s face it, by FAR the most effective solution – albeit the least sexy – is to reduce consumption. Wouldn’t it be great if people learned to modify their lifestyles to reduce the number of hours sitting behind a wheel? North Americans are obese, drive more than any other global region, use more energy per capita, and generally use less mass transit. More cars, regardless of their energy source, will not solve our problems – regardless of how shiny they are.    

    I dont understand….the Volt DOES reduce consumption. ( of gasoline )

    All energy is not “bad”….

    Here in Pa, we can choose our electricity suppliers….including company’s who only sell electricity generated by wind and hydro. Essentially, in the near future, we will be able to charge our Volts with the wind and the rain. We have a ton of wind farms here…and they just keep building more! The cost of solar keeps dropping. This is all real progress…..progress that will result in far less consumption of non renewable resources. That should make you very happy….it does me!

    I am of the mind that mankind should always go forward and “improve” their lot in life. We should not be forced to live in places like the old East Germany or Soviet Union…or backwards, unsustainable society’s like Cuba or even worse…North Korea. These are places where ingenuity, individuality, and freedom are suppressed. These poor folks will never have the chance to own a cool Chevy Volt. ( so sad if you do not happen to enjoy “primitive lifestyles” ) I hope that someday, these places become more “progressive”.

    I have absolutely no problem with folks who WANT to live a more “simple” existence…..that is cool….if that’s your “thing”. For instance, we have a lot of Amish folks who live around here….and quite frankly….I have an enormous amount of respect for them….because they work very hard and are very self reliant. ( like me…only different…cool! )

    The future looks very bright, clean and interesting for those who are industrious and forward thinking. All thanks to technological progress….LIKE THE GM VOLT.


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    JohnK

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:40 pm)

    Dave G: In other words, as more of these parts are produced, more suppliers will want to build them, and they’ll figure out ways to make them cheaper and more reliable, in order to compete.

    Exactly true. But if you are GM and you go to a supplier and say to them “I want a better price” and then “but I want you to triple the volume” they will laugh at you (I used to work for an auto supplier). When somebody comes begging for more product you jack up the price, you pay overtime, you have extra setup costs. It is kind of like the development process all over again. LG Chem is right now building a new factory in Holland MI and we want them to ramp up the supply before that is complete? And now they are talking about building ANOTHER plant to build the cells. That is brand new development costs. Yes, there may be a rosy future, but there is no short cut – all this costs money. And by the way, yes, we are coming out of a deep recession, but companies often go bankrupt from the inablility to control rapid growth. We better be careful that production is increased in a sane and responsible manner. Sorry if I sound like I’m ranting. Just be patient children, we are not there yet.


  125. 125
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (7:49 pm)

    kForceZero: what else am I forgetting?

    The $40,220.00 MSRP (before Destination Charge) is not what the dealer pays for it.
    The Dealer Invoice is about $2,000 less… around $38,220.
    So there is part of your answer.


  126. 126
    GM Volt Fan

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (8:38 pm)

    Wow man. Check this out … the very first Volt coming off the assembly line is already bidding for $185,000.

    http://volt.charitybuzz.com/catalog_items/253700

    If anyone in here has the buckeroos to do it, you could still get it. All the proceeds go to charity for education in Detroit. I think this first Volt could end up being a collector’s item in 10-20 years and you could make a sizable profit. No kidding.

    The Volt is going to be a car that goes down in the history books. It really is a technical marvel like a lot of the car magazine guys have been saying in the past couple of weeks. It’s a milestone car … a true technological breakthrough.


  127. 127
    harrier

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:11 pm)

    Lyle… please delete 127. I missed the offensive post earlier but I can now guess what it was about.


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    Dave G

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:19 pm)

    JohnK: When somebody comes begging for more product you jack up the price, you pay overtime, you have extra setup costs.

    Yes, that’s the initial symptom of supply and demand, but shortly after that, other suppliers start to make the product. Once competition kicks in, the price tends to drop.

    In other words, high demand soon leads to increased supply, unless the raw materials are limited. So the inceased prices due to increased demand is just s temporary spike, which usually only lasts a few months.


  129. 129
    Dave K.

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:21 pm)

    erevme.jpg?t=1291346427

    EREV me


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    Loboc

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:34 pm)

    @ 127

    Lyle,
    The sooner that forum logon is required to post here the better.
    Thx.


  131. 131
    Tagamet

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (10:51 pm)

    Loboc: @ 127Lyle,
    The sooner that forum logon is required to post here the better.
    Thx.    

    OR add an “Ignore” button!

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    scottf200

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:31 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Arizona should have been an original launch area. 2 fresh inquiries came in from Phoenix today.

    Ford on Monday [Nov 15,2010] announced the first American cities where the Focus Electric, the company’s first all-electric, zero emissions car, will go on sale in late 2011.

    Atlanta, Ga.
    Austin, Texas (volt here)
    Houston, Texas (volt here later)
    Boston, Ma.
    Chicago, Ill.
    Denver, Colo.
    Detroit, Mich. (volt here)
    Los Angeles, Calif. (volt here)
    New York, N.Y. (volt here)
    Orlando, Fla.
    Phoenix, Ariz.
    Tucson, Ariz.
    Portland, Ore.
    Raleigh-Durham, N.C.
    Richmond, Va.
    San Francisco, Calif.
    San Diego, Calif.
    Seattle, Wash.
    Washington, D.C. (volt here)


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    neutron

     

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    Dec 2nd, 2010 (11:44 pm)

    scottf200,

    This kind of competition should encourage GM to build more VOLTs. Successful companies will supply a customer with their product (car) or they will lose them to those that will. It is GM’s choice.


  134. 134
    GM Toasted

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (1:28 am)

    Hope they won’t be successful.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (2:21 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Okay. Now I’m bummed again. In the past month, GM has announced production increases and I have been happily taking orders and deposits. Now, we are just days away from receiving our first car, with appointments to show it off to government officials: Mayors, City Councilmen, Members of State Assembly, and my wife, and now I can only tell all of them that we can take their order for a 2012. Please wait.
    Rats

    OK, that sounds pretty bad…but on the brighter side who else will have trainloads of EREV’s piling up in Detroit area lots in August 2011 to roll out for customer delivery?


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    America1st

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (2:41 am)

    Proud of GM. They do seem to have a hit on their hands. I certainly wish their studies better factored the response, but that’s probably Monday morning quarterbacking. I still suggest, just knowing here in Colorado, the $5,000 tax credit, PLlUS the $7500 tax credit combined would sell a significant number of these cars, pretty much taking out Prius overnight. Better car, better solution in everyway, and as always suggested here – CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED. Bring out the Voltec SUV and a Buick Voltec – what a game changer moment in history this is.


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    America1st

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (2:43 am)

    Very much pray GM ups the numbers. The demand is only increasing as the public learns what we all known for years.


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    speedy

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (2:46 am)

    scottf200,

    There going to have a short supply of batteries as well.


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    speedy

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (2:55 am)

    America1st,

    Why would they?


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    speedy

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (3:00 am)

    scottf200,

    AS well the Volt will be in all 50 states about that time.


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    Raymondjram

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (6:05 am)

    GM Volt Fan: Wow man. Check this out … the very first Volt coming off the assembly line is already bidding for $185,000. http://volt.charitybuzz.com/catalog_items/253700If anyone in here has the buckeroos to do it, you could still get it. All the proceeds go to charity for education in Detroit. I think this first Volt could end up being a collector’s item in 10-20 years and you could make a sizable profit. No kidding. The Volt is going to be a car that goes down in the history books. It really is a technical marvel like a lot of the car magazine guys have been saying in the past couple of weeks. It’s a milestone car … a true technological breakthrough.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    That was the second Volt off the assembly line. The first Volt was sent to the GM Heritage Museum. Now, who has the third Volt? Or any other Volt with a VIN less than ten? I know that Lyle has VIN #8. There is a section in the Volt Forum that has postings of VIN from Volt buyers.

    And where is the the count up clock?

    Raymond


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    George McDermand

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (6:33 am)

    Raymondjram,

    Please a count up clock!


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (7:10 am)

    I hope they are not going to leave the battery in the first Volt just to sit there in the museum. I say replace it with 400 lbs of lead and use it to build another sell-able Volt.


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    Russ

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (9:07 am)

    IMHO, one that believed in the old GM and also lost $10,000 when filed bankruptcy. I believe this just goes back to the their old bad habits. They have a HOT product. As good managers of a massive company they NEED to find ways to fill the demand without compromising the product. They have put in all the leg work to pave the way for a new type of vehicle. If they don’t strike when the iron is hot they will inevitably will be passed up and others will fill that void. Smarten up GM2 and find a way. Period


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    speedy

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (1:52 pm)

    Russ,

    Give me a break, you think Gm is just setting aroung not trying too have more battery cell being made so they can increase production? That the stupiest thing I’ve ever heard of.


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    Russ

     

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    Dec 3rd, 2010 (3:36 pm)

    speedy,

    It’s not stupid when the compitition leap frogs them when they do find a way. The competion knows there is a demand for a certain type of product someone will always look to fill that void…… (iPhone/Droid) It’s all the same. Thus the reason a good company like let’s say Apple (shares that I held 18.00 is now over 300.00) it’s because they kept up with demand with a brand new product. Thus keeping their market share. GM2 now needs to do the same.


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    Zach

     

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    Dec 6th, 2010 (11:29 pm)

    Dave G,

    Ethanol Myth #1: It takes around 1 gallon of oil to produce 1 gallon of Ethanol.
    Reality: This is only for Corn Ethanol. Other sources of Ethanol use little or no fossil fuels.
    ————————————–

    If a source is massed produced for a large market, it will use plenty of oil…. unless we can grow it out of our back yard.

    Consider this…. some algae (or whatever it was) produce hydrogen with no oil required…. but of course that isn’t going to do shit for any scale population. It’s a fact that is misleading.