Nov 24

Official 2011 Chevrolet Volt EPA Fuel Economy Released

 


[ad#post_ad]The last thing we have been waiting for is finally here: the 2011 Chevrolet Volt official EPA fuel economy and label has been revealed.

On Wednesday the EPA released the information to GM who then immediately announced it publicly. Now the cars can be delivered to customers, allowing the company to achieve a hole in one for a delivery date first anticipated over three years ago.

Here are the official numbers:

1. 93 MPGe for all-electric range, combined city highway. This is expressed as miles per gallon equivalents showing how far the car can drive purely on the amount of electric energy that would be contained in a gallon of gas (33.7kwh)

2. Official full charge time is 4 hours at 240-v

3. EV Range is 35 miles officially, GM still says 25 to 50, based on driving style, temperature, and terrain.

4. Extended range charge-sustaining combined city and highway fuel economy is 37 mpg. It is 35 mpg city and 40 mpg highway.

5. Total range is 379 miles, 344 of gas range plus 35 miles electric range.

6. 60 MPG is the official overall combined number (MPGe + MPG) of fuel economy behavior over lifetime of the vehicle. It would be 93 if driving purely electric and 37 if you only drove using gas. This is the highest, of course, in the segment.

There is also a table on the label showing the consumers’ cost based on how far they drive each day and how much they are able to charge. We also find the car is using 12.9 kwh during for its 35 miles of electric range.

Of course the distance the driver goes between charges and how frequently the car is charged will significant determine overall fuel efficeint. In my example I have driven the car over 800 miles and am achieving about 150 MPG.

These are the examples given in the table:

30 miles N/A (10.9 kWh consumed)
45 miles 168MPG (12.9 kWh consumed)
60 miles 89MPG (12.9 kWh consumed)
75 miles 69 MPG (12.9 kWh consumed)
No Charge 37 MPG (35 city/40 hwy)

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This entry was posted on Wednesday, November 24th, 2010 at 3:42 pm and is filed under Efficiency. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 277


  1. 1
    Exp_EngTech

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (3:44 pm)

    Take that OPEC !


  2. 2
    stuart22

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (3:51 pm)

    Whew!! Much better than I feared! Very nice table on bottom right of sticker illustrating the YMMV factor.

    I can’t think of any other hurdles left to clear… so Chevy, LET’S GET THINGS ROLLING!


  3. 3
    Eco_Turbo

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (3:53 pm)

    That sticker should be a nice attention getter in Chevrolet showrooms. And cause more interest when people’s neighbors with Volts start reporting several hundred MPG. People will wonder how a car with no gas tank at all only gets 6 more MPGe


  4. 4
    gdgg16

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (3:56 pm)

    Much better all electric rating than I feared, slightly worse gas rating.

    Looks positive. Go VOLT!


  5. 5
    Bob

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:03 pm)

    Most of the information on the sticker will be useless to the average person. The example charging routines in the lower right corner is the only meaningful information on it.

    The 93 MPGe basically means nothing unless you are comparing it to the Leaf, where few will care how much electricity they use per mile.

    Further, averaging the MPGe and MPG is just apples and oranges. Few people will drive half electric and half gas to get to the average 60 mpg figure.

    I hate to see the news media try to publish these results. They will surely muck it up.


  6. 6
    Larry

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:04 pm)

    I think the EPA has done well! They still have MPGe, but they also have the real kWHr/100 miles. Having a Gas-Only mileage rating is a little odd, but it lets you determine ‘fuel’ usage in your own actual commute.
    My favorite part is the Range bar that shows the Volt can go 379 mile without stopping – compared to the 75 of the Leaf!


  7. 7
    Anthony

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:04 pm)

    Looks great. The table is an absolute necessity to illustrate how the miles per gallon of actual gasoline works when you recharge it every night.


  8. 8
    TinManNFO

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:06 pm)

    As a start, it’s definitely better mileage than my current vehicle in CS, and, based on the data from the CAB and other reviewers, most of us will be able to easily get better numbers than the label if we want to.


  9. 9
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:08 pm)

    Great news, and 40mpg highway MPG for the generator is excellent to hear too.

    So I assume the 12.9 kWh for a full charge includes charger inefficiencies? i.e. it takes 12.9 kWh from your home outlet to fill the 10.6kWh of usable energy in the battery?

    join thE REVolution


  10. 10
    Mike-o-Matic

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:08 pm)

    Not bad numbers at all!

    And… Yay! Now that this particular snippet of red tape has been cut, the Volts that are already built can truly hit the streets! Exciting times!


  11. 11
    DonC

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:08 pm)

    Pretty close to what was expected. But what we’ll see in practice is more what we’re seeing from Lyle’s driving log — actual use will see 150 miles to 250 miles per gallon. For example, while Lyle is doing opportunity charging during the day, he’s putting on the miles at a clip of almost 23,000 miles per year. Those driving more in the 10,000 to 12,000 range should see much lower levels of gas consumption.

    At the end of the day it’s not about MPGe or how many kWh you use, it’s how much gas you use. The less the better.


  12. 12
    Raymondjram

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:12 pm)

    The EPA did the right step again, posting an average annual cost for gas and electric modes. As I posted before, most car buyers want to know how much would it cost and save to drive a Volt, and this EPA label gives them the information they want. Most Volt buyers are better educated and technically prepared to understand how the Volt works, but GM needs more buyers in all levels.

    Congratulation to Lyle, now that the EPA label is out, GM can deliver the first Volts to buyers. And what would Lyle do now, having his own Volt delivered while still driving the CAB loaner? I recommend giving the purchased Volt to his wife while staying with the CAB loaner until the trial period is over next year.

    Now I love to read here who will receive their Volt first!

    Raymond


  13. 13
    John

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:16 pm)

    I love the charging routines table. That makes uninformed customers more informed without too many questions. None of the dollar figures are “real” but are representative and should help customers know the difference in usage patterns / routines.

    37mpg – who’s complaining, pretty good even on gas-only.
    35miles on EV – pretty good since some people live in hilly areas, need to go on the highway, etc. You will see 40+ for some drivers and others < 35 just as the Michigan crew saw among the two-person drives to the hotel at the Volt event.


  14. 14
    Robert

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:17 pm)

    Nice to see,
    Would have preferred KwH/mile to MPGe but we can figure that out.
    Also they should have listed total cost per year in the miles driven section.
    I’m not sure about the combined 60 MPGe rating, it seems very arbitrary, just averaging the two ratings and assuming half the driving is electric and half on gas.


  15. 15
    LeoK

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:17 pm)

    An epic day…. let the VOLT shipments begin…. as Lyle says like sinking a hole-in-one from three years ago!

    This label will surely be a great conversation starter on the showroom floor… although I doubt we’ll have one sitting in the showroom any time soon. The VOLT’s will be delivered as fast as they come off the truck.

    Let the shipments begin!

    Happy Thanksgiving to all in GM-VOLT land…. especially Lyle!


  16. 16
    canehdian

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:22 pm)

    IMO the 36 kWh/100miles should be the big number, with MPGe the small one.
    That’s the number you’re going to use to compare to other vehicles in electric mode.
    MPG for the gas side is fine, as that’s what every other gas model is rated in.


  17. 17
    Dave K.

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:23 pm)

    For months math pointed to a Volt CS of 37.8 MPG.

    Current CAB testing commonly reports an initial battery range of about 40 miles when using a moderate driving style. And a bit more initial range, 42 miles per charge, when making an effort to watch the efficiency gauge. Air conditioning and heater use weigh on initial battery range.

    Most drivers will achieve a real world Volt initial range on battery of about 38 miles followed by about 38 mpg on liquid fuel. Initial battery range is covered under warranty by GM for 8 years. With at least 80% performance (31 miles) expected for several years thereafter.

    By Spring of 2011 over 8000 Volts will be on the road. Most will easily reduce the drivers liquid fuel use by 80% or more.

    40 miles per day at 1.6 gallons of gas for 8000 drivers. Will drop to 40 miles per day at .1 gallon of gas for 8000 drivers.

    1.5 gallons of gas unburned for 8000 Volts = 12,000 gallons of unneeded liquid fuel per day.

    12,000 gallons of unneeded liquid fuel per day = 2,520,000 gallons (minimum) of liquid fuel saved for the remainder of 2011 (210 days) by Chevrolet Volt owners.

    =D-Volt


  18. 18
    Loboc

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:23 pm)

    Coolness. The label is much better than most of us feared.

    For me, it doesn’t make a bit of difference. I will be one of those folks getting 250mpg or whatever it is to use 1/10 the gasoline I use now.

    Unlike Lyle, I’m closer to the 40mpc sweet spot at 20.5 miles each way on my commute.


  19. 19
    Jim Young

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:32 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  20. 20
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:32 pm)

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  21. 21
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:42 pm)

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  22. 22
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:43 pm)

    (93+37) / 2 = 65. Where’s the 60MPG blended number come from? If anything, it seems like over 50% of driving should be assumed to be all electric given national average drive distances per day, not less.

    EricLG: I’m pretty sure the 12.9kWh includes charging losses. At least one CAB person has reported 12kWh being used to charge a fully depleted battery, direct from the wall. (See: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5610-How-Many-KWh-to-Charge-the-Volt )

    join thE REVolution


  23. 23
    Krahnos

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:47 pm)

    Jim Young: Disappointed that the Gas Only rating is fairly low.I take long trips once in a while and the Prius’s 48-50 mpg would be missed.    

    Keep in mind, though, that if you take long trips only “once in a while”, like many others, you’d still be getting WAY better mpg than the Prius over The life of the vehicle. Plus, it’s a nicer ride. :)


  24. 24
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:48 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  25. 25
    Baltimore17

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:53 pm)

    Jim Young: Disappointed that the Gas Only rating is fairly low. I take long trips once in a while and the Prius’s 48-50 mpg would be missed.

    Only took 19 posts before disappointment vs. the Prius’ gasoline-only mileage set in. Could the EPA have developed a label that showed that the long-term use of the Volt would require *far* less gasoline consumption than the Prius for the vast majority of people? Could the label have given useful guidance to that rare, valid Prius candidate purchaser who drives so many, many miles per day that the miles driven on electricity pales in comparison to gas miles? Let the confusion begin. Sigh.


  26. 26
    Dave G

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:53 pm)

    MPGe is a useless number. The whole idea is to replace foreign oil with domestic electricity.

    With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt …………………….. 54
    Prius …………………… 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570

    Assumptions:
    Volt: 35 miles all-electric range, 37 mpg thereafter
    Prius: 50 mpg

    Typical driving pattern:
    • 30 days at 8 miles per day
    • 50 days at 16 miles per day
    • 240 days at 30 miles per day
    • 30 days at 60 miles per day
    • 3 days at 450 miles per day

    11,390 total miles per year

    More info here:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/GallonsPerYear.xls


  27. 27
    jhm614

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:54 pm)

    Okay, let me start by saying I’m a LEAF guy. I plunked down my $99 back in April and I placed my order back in September. But WOW! Chevy has really knocked this one out of the park — 3 major COTY / 10 Best awards, a green COTY award and now their MPGe is really close to the LEAF and their combined mileage beats Toyota.

    If the sticker price were just a little lower and the battery just a little bigger (or if Chevy “opened up” the 16 Kwh battery a little bit), I think I would go with the Chevy instead of the LEAF. And that’s saying something.

    Anyway, great job, Chevy! I can’t wait to see what Volt 2.0 is like!

    edit: I also think the EPA did a fairly good job on the stickers. This is much better the “Letter Grade” stuff they showed in the fall.


  28. 28
    jim1961

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:55 pm)

    Bob,

    I disagree with you on one point. You say that MPGe is meaningless to the average person. I believe the average person will look at the 93 MPGe and it will help them to understand that electric cars are much more efficient than gasoline cars, diesel cars, and even hybrid cars.


  29. 29
    NJ Renewable Energy /EJH

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:56 pm)

    DonC,

    Can someone please educate me… I’m a volt owner waiting for delivery. I will be in EV mode 98% during the course of the year because of less then 40 miles per day driving and I will be charging by my home Solar PV array, I might add. Anyway, I’m confused with the large gap of EPA 93 MPGe and the many who claim their MPGe will be far closer to 150 to 250. Can someone please explain why the EPA’s MPGe is far lower???


  30. 30
    maharguitar

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:57 pm)

    Like this sticker. They give you the two numbers you need to figure out how much energy you will use. My mileage would be between 96 and 37 MPGe and I should be able to figure out for myself how much will be electric vs gas.

    The EPA’s job for the purposes of this sticker are to display the energy efficiency. It is not trying to show how much gasoline you will save. They don’t care if you are using gasoline or coal or nuclear. Nor do they state a position on which is better. They do, however, give you the information you need to make that determination yourself.


  31. 31
    T 1

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:58 pm)

    Done. Now let’s move’m out!!


  32. 32
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (4:59 pm)

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  33. 33
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:03 pm)

    EricLG: I guessed 63 MPG(e) average. I’m losing my touch The sticker says 36 kwh/100 miles, and 35 AER mile range. That works out to 12.6 kwh used, and I don’t think it includes charging losses.More GM “transparency?”  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Pretty snide remarks, eh?

    For reference, the first generation PRIUS got 42/41mpg, and the uneducated 65MPG ((93+37)/2) average will clearly be much higher since 75% of people drive less than 40 miles per day.

    Ignoring how uneducated and unrealistically low the 65MPG average is, the first gen Volt still bests the first gen Prius by 20MPG, or 50% better. Still 20% better than the current Prius too. And as bad as that makes the Prius look, the actual observed numbers will make it look far worse.

    Poor Prius, poor EricLG… so dependent on foreign oil…

    join thE REVolution


  34. 34
    Jayson

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:05 pm)

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  35. 35
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:05 pm)

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  36. 36
    Eco_Turbo

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:07 pm)

    Dave K.: For months math pointed to a Volt CS of 37.8 MPG.
    Current CAB testing commonly reports an initial battery range of about 40 miles when using a moderate driving style. And a bit more initial range, 42 miles per charge, when making an effort to watch the efficiency gauge. Air conditioning and heater use weigh on initial battery range.
    Most drivers will achieve a real world Volt initial range on battery of about 38 miles followed by about 38 mpg on liquid fuel. Initial battery range is covered under warranty by GM for 8 years. With at least 80% performance (31 miles) expected for several years thereafter.By Spring of 2011 over 8000 Volts will be on the road. Most will easily reduce the drivers liquid fuel use by 80% or more.
    40 miles per day at 1.6 gallons of gas for 8000 drivers. Will drop to 40 miles per day at .1 gallon of gas for 8000 drivers.
    1.5 gallons of gas unburned for 8000 Volts = 12,000 gallons of unneeded liquid fuel per day.12,000 gallons of unneeded liquid fuel per day = 2,520,000 gallons (minimum) of liquid fuel saved for the remainder of 2011 (210 days) by Chevrolet Volt owners.=D-Volt    

    More gas available for us poor slobs stuck with gas burners.


  37. 37
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:09 pm)

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  38. 38
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:09 pm)

    EricLG: ClarksonCote,Both the range and the cost table calculate out to ~ 0.36kwh/mile.I’m pretty confident GM has dug much deeper into the battery than they are admitting, to reach the 35 mile AER EPA number.Charging losses are ~ 12% I think, so a person who drives like the EPA cycle is looking at 410wh/mile, or about 5 cents a mile fuel costs based on 12 cents/kwh utility charges.It is hard not to laugh.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    You’re continuing to ignore that the EPA’s “electricity used” table accounts for charging loss.

    join thE REVolution


  39. 39
    Dave G

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:11 pm)

    Jim Young: Disappointed that the Gas Only rating is fairly low. I take long trips once in a while and the Prius’s 48-50 mpg would be missed.

    See my post #27, which includes:
    • 30 days at 60 miles per day
    • 3 days at 450 miles per day

    That would qualify as long trips once in a while, and with that driving pattern:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt …………………….. 54
    Prius …………………… 228


  40. 40
    jim1961

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:13 pm)

    Before the label came out I was wondering how EPA would put a rating on such a unique car. If the label can be thought of as a way to educate the average consumer I think it’s damn near perfect.


  41. 41
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:13 pm)

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  42. 42
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:14 pm)

    EricLG: I admit, snide. I have come to dislike most of this forum’s regulars.Your argument comparing the Volt to a ~14 year old Toyota model is more insulting than I could make up. Thanks!  (Quote)  (Reply)

    I had to give you a +1 because you made me laugh. But my comparison to a first gen Prius is not entirely off base. I simply request that you wait for real world MPG statistics on Gen I Volt, as well as what Gen II Volt has to offer.

    The Volt is the first vehicle that will consistently over-deliver in gasoline savings with respect to the EPA label.

    join thE REVolution


  43. 43
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:15 pm)

    EricLG: Can you tell that from the table itself ?It does make sense, to the extent that the energy/mile number for the Volt and the LEAF seemed high, but the EPA cycle is pretty demanding, so I am unsure just on that basis.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    This forum thread confirms my assertion: http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5610-How-Many-KWh-to-Charge-the-Volt

    12kWh from the outlet to charge the Volt’s battery.

    join thE REVolution


  44. 44
    Tagamet

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:15 pm)

    ClarksonCote: Great news, and 40mpg highway MPG for the generator is excellent to hear too.So I assume the 12.9 kWh for a full charge includes charger inefficiencies?i.e. it takes 12.9 kWh from your home outlet to fill the 10.6kWh of usable energy in the battery?join thE REVolution    

    That’s the way I read it too. Overall, it’s not a bad starting point, given the many issues that the EPA doesn’t normally need to even address. The *really* great part is that we now have some production vehicles that *present* these issues! It’s been a very long road for GM, Lyle, and of course all the faithful here. Assuming that this is just the initial phase, which will lead to much broader acceptance and enthusiasm by the “more normal” folks out there, “We’ve only just begun!”
    I still believe in my heart and in my head that once people drive the Volt, the fun factor will render the sticker info (other than price) largely irrelevant! Husband to wife: “Is it me, or did that car handle exquisitely? The quiet!!” Wife to husband: “Shush, George, I’m looking for my checkbook” “Oh Mr. Salesperson, do you have these in stock in *red*, FOR CHRISTMAS???…. JMO.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  45. 45
    Eco_Turbo

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:17 pm)

    NJ Renewable Energy /EJH: DonC,
    Can someone please educate me… I’m a volt owner waiting for delivery.I will be in EV mode 98% during the course of the year because of less then 40 miles per day driving and I will be charging by my home Solar PV array, I might add.Anyway, I’m confused with the large gap of EPA 93 MPGe and the many who claim their MPGe will be far closer to 150 to 250.Can someone please explain why the EPA’s MPGe is far lower???    

    ‘Cause they’re average type people.


  46. 46
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:18 pm)

    jim1961: Before the label came out I was wondering how EPA would put a rating on such a unique car. If the label can be thought of as a way to educate the average consumer I think it’s damn near perfect.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    My one complaint is the blended number. 60MPG blended isn’t even an average of the electric/gas numbers. What the blended number should be is a weighted average of electric and gas modes, using the national statistics of daliy commute distances to determine the appropriate weighting.

    That method would yield a much more accurate blended MPG number closer to the 93MPGe value.

    join thE REVolution


  47. 47
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:18 pm)

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  48. 48
    Eco_Turbo

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:18 pm)

    Dave G:
    See my post #27, which includes:
    • 30 days at 60 miles per day
    • 3 days at 450 miles per dayThat would qualify as long trips once in a while, and with that driving pattern:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt …………………….. 54
    Prius …………………… 228    

    Prius = GAS HOG!


  49. 49
    iroc

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:20 pm)

    I like the “36 kW-hr per 100 mile” rating, makes it easy to compare EVs.

    MPGe is meaningless. I’d prefer MPkWh in electric mode.

    MPG is fine for extended range mode. It won’t be used much in the Volt.


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:22 pm)

    EricLG: ClarksonCote,
    Both the range and the cost table calculate out to ~ 0.36kwh/mile.
    I’m pretty confident GM has dug much deeper into the battery than they are admitting, to reach the 35 mile AER EPA number.Charging losses are ~ 12% I think, so a person who drives like the EPA cycle is looking at 410wh/mile, or about 5 cents a mile fuel costs based on 12 cents/kwh utility charges.It is hard not to laugh.    

    They say laughing is good for you… Let us know.


  51. 51
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:24 pm)

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  52. 52
    Baltimore17

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:25 pm)

    EricLG: NJ Renewable Energy /EJH: Can someone please explain why the EPA’s MPGe
    This is an energy consumption calculation, not a calc of petrol use. The Volt is an energy hog.

    The “e” at the end of “MPGe” is an attempt to provide a comparison of how energy efficient various cars are, inclusive of all fuel sources. The reports of MPG’s in the 150 MPG range reflect an honest calculation of how how many gallons of gasoline was used to cover the total miles that included many miles gasoline-free — on electricity. It’s a good reflection of energy independence.

    Having said that, I’m baffled that anyone would have so little respect for the knowledge of the readers at this web site that the abject falsehood “The Volt is an energy hog” would ever be posted. That’s just shameful.


  53. 53
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    NJ Renewable Energy /EJH: DonC, Can someone please educate me… I’m a volt owner waiting for delivery. I will be in EV mode 98% during the course of the year because of less then 40 miles per day driving and I will be charging by my home Solar PV array, I might add. Anyway, I’m confused with the large gap of EPA 93 MPGe and the many who claim their MPGe will be far closer to 150 to 250. Can someone please explain why the EPA’s MPGe is far lower???  (Quote)  (Reply)

    The MPG numbers shown in Lyle’s Drive log, for example, is how many gallons of physical gasoline were used over the total mileage he has driven. It shows petroleum reduction. When he uses no gas, Lyle gets infinite MPG.

    The EPA has assigned an MPGe number to all-electric driving, to help consumers recognize that electric drives are much more efficient than gasoline engines. Since the car still has an energy footprint in all-electric mode, the sticker attempts to quantify that in MPGe terms that any existing driver could understand.

    I short, when Lyle or other drivers report infinite miles per gallon, it’s because they didn’t use any physical gasoline. The EPA would call that same drive 93 MPGe, because the electric drive is roughly twice as efficient as the most efficient non-electric cars on the market.

    join thE REVolution


  54. 54
    pius & leaf are turkeys

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    pius & leaf are turkeys
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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    This should be the last EPA rating thread for a LONG time, I hope to goodness. Brings the trolls out better than bridge collapses, or their turkey pius and leaf being outclassed by the Volt.


  55. 55
    NJ Renewable Energy /EJH

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    Eco_Turbo,

    Do you really think the driving method from the “average person” to some EV blogger could vary 57 to 157 extra MPGe’s. That seems way too far out past the standard deviation model.


  56. 56
    Dave G

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:27 pm)

    EricLG: This is an energy consumption calculation, not a calc of petrol use.

    People don’t care about energy consumption, they care about energy independence and/or the environment.

    For energy independence, electricity is a windfall. All electricity comes from domestic fuel sources, while 2/3 of our oil is imported.

    For climate change and the environment, here’s what NOVA says:
    “Skeptics say that all plug-ins do is shift the pollution source from the tailpipe to the smokestack, but studies show that powering cars with electricity from today’s mix of power plants could reduce greenhouse emissions by about 40 percent. Further reductions are possible if electric power gets cleaner.”
    http://video.pbs.org/video/980048834/

    So any way you slice it, the MPGe number doesn’t reflect most people’s concerns.


  57. 57
    Tagamet

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    Eco_Turbo: Dave G:
    See my post #27, which includes:
    • 30 days at 60 miles per day
    • 3 days at 450 miles per dayThat would qualify as long trips once in a while, and with that driving pattern:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt …………………….. 54
    Prius …………………… 228

    Prius = GAS HOG!

    Now, now guys. There is plenty of room in this sector of gas saving vehicles. As with any continuum, *somebody* has to pull up the rear. The Prius is a great car and saves a huge amount of oil. And it’ll take a long time to close the gap between the shear number of them on the roads, before the Volt will surpass them at overall fuel savings nationally or world wide. It’s just that in the current scheme of things, they are a little like the ugliest girl at a beauty contest – still great, but…..

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  58. 58
    EricLeGay

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    streetlights are on lil le gay. time to come home for some more pius turkey


  59. 59
    charles brooks

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    Volt cost comparison for me if I drove Lyles cycle would seem to be 58.25 Miles/gallon

    Lets use Lyles drive log and assuming he is the average EPA driver who needs 12.9 KHh from the wall to go 35 miles or 368.57 watts/mile (you have to pay for charging inefficiencies as well but this still seems kinda high).

    EV off peak time in California where I live is 12 cents/KWh and the average price of gas is 3.14 dollars/gallon.

    So far the drive log shows
    Total_Miles = 817.8 miles
    Total_EV_Miles = 622.5 miles
    Gallons_Gas_Used = 5.27 gallons
    Electricity_Cost_per_KWh = 0.12 dollars
    Watts_Per_Mile = 368.57
    Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon = 3.14 dollars

    So the true cost of the Volt would be the same a car driven over the Lyle driving cycle that averaged 58.25 miles per gallon.

    Cost_Comparison =
    Total_Miles/(((Watts_Per_Mile*Total_EV_Miles*Electricity_Cost_per_KWh/1000)/Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon) + Gallons_Gas_Used)

    The only real variable is the watts/mile but even if you went 45 miles on 12.9 KWh it it would only change to 67.65 miles/gallon cost.

    Did I miss something here?
    I am only interested in the true cost to drive the Volt compared to putting that money onto an ICE car.

    Charlie


  60. 60
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    NJ Renewable Energy /EJH: Eco_Turbo, Do you really think the driving method from the “average person” to some EV blogger could vary 57 to 157 extra MPGe’s. That seems way too far out past the standard deviation model.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    See my post #53. Hope this helps.


  61. 61
    Jim Young

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:35 pm)

    Let’s try this…I wonder why the gas only mileage is only 37 mpg. Is it because the motor is big or inneficient? Is serial hybrid less efficient than parallel? Seems like the drivetrain would be simpler and therefore more efficient?


  62. 62
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:37 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  63. 63
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:38 pm)

    charles brooks: Volt cost comparison for me if I drove Lyles cycle would seem to be 58.25 Miles/gallonLets use Lyles drive log and assuming he is the average EPA driver who needs 12.9 KHh from the wall to go 35 miles or 368.57 watts/mile (you have to pay for charging inefficiencies as well but this still seems kinda high).EV off peak time in California where I live is 12 cents/KWh and the average price of gas is 3.14 dollars/gallon.So far the drive log showsTotal_Miles = 817.8 milesTotal_EV_Miles = 622.5 milesGallons_Gas_Used = 5.27 gallonsElectricity_Cost_per_KWh = 0.12 dollarsWatts_Per_Mile = 368.57Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon = 3.14 dollarsSo the true cost of the Volt compared to a car driven over the Lyle driving cycle that averaged 58.25 miles per gallon.Cost_Comparison =Total_Miles/(((Watts_Per_Mile*Total_EV_Miles*Electricity_Cost_per_KWh/1000)/Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon) + Gallons_Gas_Used)The only real variable is the watts/mile but even if you went 45 miles on 12.9 KWh it it would only change to 67.65 miles/gallon cost.Did I miss something here?I am only interested in the true cost to drive the Volt compared to putting that money onto an ICE car.Charlie  (Quote)  (Reply)

    If you’re looking purely on cost, it’s worth mentioning a couple points about your math:
    1) Lyle’s consistently getting more like 38 miles on a full charge, not 35. That’s not insignificant over all of his full charges.
    2) Opportunity charging could greatly reduce the cost as well, as it does with Lyle. Lyle’s true drive cycle cost calculation would have to ignore any EV miles over 38 per day (on average) since the remainder comes from opportunity charging at his place of work. I also have the green light from my company to charge at work.
    3) Your cost of electricity and gasoline may vary.
    4) Prius in the rearview mirror are less efficient than they appear.

    join thE REVolution


  64. 64
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:40 pm)

    EricLG: Always left out is 40% — compared to what ? The answer tells you why the statement is nonsense.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Umm… 40% reduction using today’s mix of power plants compared to today’s mix of cars on the road (using average MPG and average miles driven per year).

    join thE REVolution


  65. 65
    Tall Pete

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:42 pm)

    EricLG,

    And what’s the AER range of the Prius again ?


  66. 66
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:44 pm)

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  67. 67
    charles brooks

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:45 pm)

    ClarksonCote

    I went by the best cost of electricity for an EV in my area, and the cost of gasoline in my area.

    I also went with Lyles driving cycle since it all I have and the amount of EV miles he was able to obtain from his log.

    The only thing to guess on would be the amount of electricity he used in total to charge his Volt, I suggested he add that to his drive log but alas it was not to be.
    Thats why I used 35 miles and 45 miles per charge.

    charlie


  68. 68
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:47 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  69. 69
    IQ130

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:48 pm)

    For me the most interesting information is, electric range of 35 miles, 36 kw hrs per 100 miles in electric mode and 2.7 gallons per 100 miles in gas mode.

    Everybody can now do the calculations for his/her individual driving and charging pattern and find out how much kw hrs and gallons of gas is used per year.


  70. 70
    Murrcar

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:48 pm)

    ClarksonCote,

    EPA uses Fuel Economy values to the second decimal place. They also use fuel consumption not fuel economy. Formula 1/( %A/A + %B/B) = C For the volt it could be

    1 / (.36/37 + .64/93) = 60 or 64% electric and 36% gasoline.


  71. 71
    ClarksonCote

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:48 pm)

    charles brooks: ClarksonCote went by the best cost of elevtricity for an EV in my area, and the cost of gasoline in my area.I also went with Lyles driving cycle and he amount of EV miles he was able to obtain.The only thing to guess on would be the amount of electricity he used in total to charge his Volt, I suggested he add that to his drive log but alas it was not to be.charlie  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Lyle will be posting a monthly report from Onstar that shows how much electricity he’s used. That should help for the calculation that you’re doing! :)

    join thE REVolution


  72. 72
    Busta Move

    -39

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:49 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  73. 73
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:50 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  74. 74
    Raymondjram

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:52 pm)

    Jim Young,

    I believe that the Volt’s weight is the limiting factor. If GM can find a way to slim down the Volt’s weight, the MPG number will increase. Any way, GM did an excellent engineering on the Volt. I find that 37 MPG for its weight is still a great improvement. My Regal is only a bit heavier, but having a much larger engine (3.8L) limits my best MPG rating to 21, while the average is 18 due to traffic patterns.

    Raymond


  75. 75
    Nick G

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:53 pm)

    For those concerned about power plant energy consumption:

    The Volt and Leaf will mostly charge at night, when nuclear and wind power provide more than 50% of electricity. Power from nuclear and wind is very low-CO2, and is basically surplus power looking for a use.

    So, the Volt/Leaf are much cleaner and cheaper to power, and the power comes from domestic sources.


  76. 76
    Nick G

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (5:59 pm)

    Raymond,

    Weight isn’t that important with regenerative braking.

    I think the CS mode will become more efficient when GM is less worried about battery life, so that they can allow the generator to turn off for longer periods. Right now they want to minimize the cycling of the battery. If the generator can turn off for longer periods, it saves the base power needed to turn the engine. That’s how Prius hypermiling works.


  77. 77
    Murrcar

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:00 pm)

    Did anybody note the Volt is considered a duel fuel vehicle by EPA. Does that meen it is not a hybred?


  78. 78
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:01 pm)

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  79. 79
    NJ Renewable Energy /EJH

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:02 pm)

    ClarksonCote,

    Clarksoncote- Thanks for the lesson. I think the idea of explaining the efficiency correlation between gas and electricity is a good thing. IE- EPA’s rating that the volt will get 93 MPGe. I guess what confuses me now, is why volt decided to provide a calculation that is just adding up the savings over time. Whats the point?? Yes its 250MPGe, but I still had to buy the KWH… I think just having a spot on the dash that says “Gallons of gas saved” with a number would be far less confusing but still prove the point. Because as you know, its not just about efficiency but removing our dependency to foreign oil.


  80. 80
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:03 pm)

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  81. 81
    Yegor

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:05 pm)

    I do not agree with combined 60 MPG. On average people will drive it 75% of the time in all electric mode so combined MPG should be
    93 MPG * 0.75 + 37 MPG * 0.25 = 69.75 MPG + 9.25 MPG = 79 MPG


  82. 82
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:08 pm)

    Murrcar: ClarksonCote, EPA uses Fuel Economy values to the second decimal place. They also use fuel consumption not fuel economy. Formula 1/( %A/A + %B/B) = C For the volt it could be 1 / (.36/37 + .64/93) = 60 or 64% electric and 36% gasoline.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Thanks for the explanation, but something has to be wrong about that calculation method, right? Shouldn’t it be %A*A+%B*B?

    If the average assumes 64% of the time at 93MPG and 36% of the time at 37MPG, the effective average should be closer to 93MPG. Instead, it’s closer to 37MPG.

    I would expect 73MPG, not 60MPG.

    join thE REVolution


  83. 83
    john1701a

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:11 pm)

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  84. 84
    Stas Peterson

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:13 pm)

    Our anti-American Eco-Loons at EPA could not possibly give an American breakthrough or an American company any credit. They are too busy denigrating everything American, trying to turn us into a member of their world socialist bloc dystopia.

    The VOLT is a genuine gasoline substitute vehicle.

    It is the first true total, and satisfactory, substitute for fossil fuels, and a solution to future availability and sustainability. In conjunction with the already existing levels of synthetically manufactured fossil substitutes like ethanol, an America of Volts would not need a drop of Oil foreign or domestic.

    As such it is a threat to those Eco-Loons who dream of catastrophes with the avid desire of some who look forward to Armageddon, or the End of Days.

    VOLT substitutes electric miles for gasoline miles in a fine preferential fashion, using all its electric miles first. As such its gasoline mileage should be rated significantly better than on a fifty-fifty basis that the cloacal cavities at the EPA have chosen to do. Purposely misunderstnading its preferential strategy and treating it as equivalent to a paralllel PHEV, in an attempt to denigrate it.

    We need to throw all those bastards out, and let them migrate to whatever country, wherever the hell they think the world is better organized. What utter BS and what a kick in the arse.

    No matter how hard they try, the truth will out, and everyone will see that the VOLT and its brethren will routinely produce closer to 230 mpge than their fracked up EPA window stickers.


  85. 85
    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:14 pm)

    So, even a crappy driver traveling 75 miles gets 69 miles-per-gallon. That sure beats the heck out of the Prius getting only 51 MPG over the same distance. I’m just glad the stickers are on the cars so they can load up the trucks and get them here. I have customers waiting!


  86. 86
    Muhammad

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:19 pm)

    jim1961: Bob,
    I disagree with you on one point. You say that MPGe is meaningless to the average person. I believe the average person will look at the 93 MPGe and it will help them to understand that electric cars are much more efficient than gasoline cars, diesel cars, and even hybrid cars.    

    I think it tells you that electric cars are much cheaper than IC cars to operate. Remember, in terms of efficiency, we are excluding the inefficiencies of converting the electricity from the raw source at the plant (and transmitting it). It will still be more efficient than the portable IC engines, but not to this degree.

    btw, I really like the EPA presentation. It does a good job of informing with all the complexities. I’m happy they didn’t distill it into a single number or “grade.”


  87. 87
    Jaime

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:20 pm)

    I’m fine with the numbers overall. I’m just a little disappointed that they overpromised/underdelivered, rather than the other way around. Maybe they shouldn’t have played it closer to the vest in the devlopment process, then just come out with these EPA numbers.


  88. 88
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:23 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  89. 89
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:29 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  90. 90
    Jeff

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:32 pm)

    1. I’m surprised to see that City mpg is significantly worse than Highway mpg. That’s not the case for either the Leaf or the Prius. Is this due to the higher weight? Or does the Volt not recapture braking energy as effectively as other hybrids with regen braking?

    2. I really wish the EPA would have included estimated CO2 emissions from the power plant for electricity usage. I know, I know, I know… it will be different based on the power mix in your particular region, time of day charging is done, etc., but they could have just used the national average CO2 g/kWh. Without any info on CO2 from electricity, there’s no easy way for an eco-conscious buyer to easily compare a Volt with a Leaf or Prius in terms of GHG emissions.

    3. Why does the “graph” showing the All Eletric Range visually look more like 38 miles than 35?


  91. 91
    BCool

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:35 pm)

    Love it! Waaaahhhh…I want one! :-)

    Two points/questions:

    1) Why does the EPA use 11 cents per KWh on the Volt’s sticker, but 12 cents per KWh on the Leaf’s?

    2) Why does the gas-only mode (which is when the ICE is running at essentially a constant, no-load speed) get only 37 mpg, when the Cruze gets 42 mpg on the highway lugging the full weight of the vehicle? Does the Volt have a bigger engine than the Cruze just to recharge the battery?


  92. 92
    Unni

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:36 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  93. 93
    speedy

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:44 pm)

    BCool,

    No they have the same engine size.


  94. 94
    Noel Park

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:44 pm)

    PDNFTT Every time you quote them or respond to their drivel it just eggs them on. Ignore them long enough and they go away on their own.


  95. 95
    Nick G

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:48 pm)

    More on power plants:

    Nuclear and power is always maximized so in the short term, marginal electricity supply in the US is from NG and coal.

    But, wind and nuclear plants are paid less for the power they generate at night, which hurts their economics. This is actually a bigger problem for wind power than intermittency. power demand from EVs like the Volt and Leaf will improve the economics of wind and nuclear, and promote their growth. They will also provide dynamic demand that will absorb intermittent wind production. In fact, EVs can absorb the roughly 50% of windpower that occurs during periods of low demand, so every kWh of demand provided by EVs supports generation capacity for 2kWh of wind power.

    So, in the medium and long terms, EVs will draw their power from wind and nuclear, and even allow others to do so more than would otherwise be the case.


  96. 96
    User Name

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:48 pm)

    Anything that reduces demand for liquid fuels from foreign countries is a good thing.
    I think we’re on to something here :o


  97. 97
    Nick G

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:49 pm)

    Noel,

    Some comments which appear trollish are sincere. I consider those trollish comments which ask a common question a teaching opportunity.

    Some, of course, must simply be ignored. Fortunately, the down-rating system makes that very easy.


  98. 98
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:51 pm)

    john1701a: Notice how the PHV model is intentionally being avoided in comparisons…  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Where can I buy a Plug in Prius right now? If I said the Volt was more efficient than a Prius a year ago, wouldn’t you toss out some comment with the word vaporware in it?

    The Plug in Prius will be included when it’s in production.

    join thE REVolution


  99. 99
    ClarksonCote

     

    ClarksonCote
     Says

     

    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:55 pm)

    NJ Renewable Energy /EJH: ClarksonCote, Clarksoncote- Thanks for the lesson. I think the idea of explaining the efficiency correlation between gas and electricity is a good thing. IE- EPA’s rating that the volt will get 93 MPGe. I guess what confuses me now, is why volt decided to provide a calculation that is just adding up the savings over time. Whats the point?? Yes its 250MPGe, but I still had to buy the KWH… I think just having a spot on the dash that says “Gallons of gas saved” with a number would be far less confusing but still prove the point. Because as you know, its not just about efficiency but removing our dependency to foreign oil.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Are you referring to the original 230MPG number they claimed? That was based on a test methodology proposed by the EPA early on that since changed. It was in large part because of that experience that GM has refused to state any more MPG numbers until the EPA’s official analysis was released.

    I think the new EPA method is a good one, except for the blended value. Lyle’s Drive log also helps to complete the picture by quantifying gas saved. I think cost savings and gas savings are probably the two most interesting metrics people will want to evaluate, IMHO.

    join thE REVolution


  100. 100
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:57 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  101. 101
    John

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (6:57 pm)

    Just got this thought – not sure if it’s worth a +1 or -1 :-)

    If NASCAR would just cancel one race a year out of their really-long schedule, the # of people not driving to the event and the gas saved by not doing the event – would save all the gasoline that the Volt fleet will save over the course of at least one year, maybe three :-)

    Happy Thanksgiving. That was my conservation joke of the day.


  102. 102
    john1701a

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:01 pm)

    Dave G: Typical driving pattern

    ACTUAL driving is what we should be using now.

    Here’s a summary of 365 days of real-world data to illustrate the variety actually experienced:

    Prius-2010_Daily-Driving_Mile-Counts.png
    .

    Using that data based upon 12,000 miles of driving, here’s the breakdown:

    Prius-2010_Daily-Driving_Gallons-12000.png
    .

    Using that data based upon the standard EPA measure of 15,000 miles of driving, here’s the breakdown:

    Prius-2010_Daily-Driving_Gallons-15000.png
    .

    Using that data based upon the full distance actually driven (rather than scaling), here’s the breakdown:

    Prius-2010_Daily-Driving_Gallons-19497.png
    .


  103. 103
    John

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:03 pm)

    EricLG:
    There is something very fishy about that number, it surely is not physics without politics.Just look at the 37 mpg: one combusted gallon is about 19.2 pounds of CO2, or 8727.27 grams.
    8727.27grams/37miles = 236 grams/mile.Or the EV: 360 wh/mile,
    1321 grams CO2/kwh if NG combusted-> 475 grams/mile using NG
    Or if coal combusted,
    2100*.36 = 756 grams CO2/mile!References:
    http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/page/co2_report/co2report.html#table_2    

    The thing about a gallon of gas converted to CO2 does not include fuels burned during exploration for oil, building of refineries, pipeline construction, tankers moving oil from overseas to local refiners, trucking of gasoline to the stations, driving to/from a gas station and corporations overseeing all this work. Let’s not forget wars to protect the oil, money sent to those countries which we could use ourselves and the US Lives lost for such wars and circumstances. The untapped earth to pedal costs must be higher than those stated.

    The perfect solution for an EV is home-based PV arrays with daytime charging.


  104. 104
    IQ130

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:07 pm)

    EPA numbers are 93 MPGe on electricity and 37 MPG on gas but in the examples they combine electric and gas miles but do not use the MPGe part. The examples should give numbers between 93 and 37 MPG(e) or electricity consumed and gas consumed.


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    Impulse power

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:09 pm)

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    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:10 pm)

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    Murrcar

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:13 pm)

    ClarksonCote,

    No I used to calculate CAFE fuel economy for GM. That is the formula used by EPA for average of city and highway tests FE = 1/ ( .55/City + .45/Hwy)

    for example if you take two vehicles

    Vehicle one (elec)drives 64 miles at 93 mpg =.688 gal
    vehicle 2 (gas) drives 36 miles at 37 mpg = .973 gal

    total fuel used = 1.661 gal AVERAGE Fuel economy for 100 miles is 100/1.661 =60.2 MPG


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    john1701a

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:15 pm)

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    icur12

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:16 pm)

    I am impressed with the fuel economy this car has. Right now, the only problem with the Volt is that there aren’t any.


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    MikeD.

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:24 pm)

    Wednesday December 1st – NatGEO TV

    Megafactories: Chevy Volt

    http://natgeotv.com/uk/megafactories/videos/chevy-volt

    Should be an awesome show.


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    Jeff

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:30 pm)

    First off, I’m not a Volt-hater. I test drove one on Saturday and loved it. That said… I’m officially very, very sad.

    I just crunched the numbers for lbs of CO2 per mile for the 2011 Volt vs the 2011 Prius.

    Volt = 0.499 lbs/mi
    Prius = 0.391 lbs/mi

    :’-(

    Is there anything wrong with my math???

    Assumptions:

    Volt All-Eletric efficiency = .36 kW/mi*
    Volt CS MPG = 37mpg
    Volt, Percentage of miles driven All-Electric = 85%
    Prius MPG = 50
    Eletricity CO2 lbs/kWh = 1.37* (Approximate national average)
    Gasoline CO2 lbs/gallon = 19.56*

    *I didn’t factor in energy/emissions used to pump/mine/transport gasoline or power plant fuels. Only pump-to-wheels and outlet-to-wheels.

    I know the actual carbon footprint will be smaller if you charge at night, and it will improve over time as the power generation mix gets cleaner, and maybe if you factor in the well-to-pump and mine-to-power-plant inefficiencies it would look better for the Volt… but still. My balloon is feeling popped at this point. (Guess I should’ve done these calculations earlier instead of buying into the Tesla White Paper claims showing enormous CO2 reductions with electric cars without properly scrutinizing it.)


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    IQ130

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:31 pm)

    Miles driven ———— Fuel Economy
    between full charge – MPG(e)
    30 ———————— 93
    45 ———————— 69.6
    60 ———————— 57.0
    75 ———————— 51.5
    Never Charge ——— 37


  113. 113
    DonC

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:32 pm)

    Tagamet: As with any continuum, *somebody* has to pull up the rear. The Prius is a great car and saves a huge amount of oil.

    The sad truth is that I liked the Prius a lot before Eric showed up. LOL

    i will say though that I went through all the comments without seeing one of his — they were all hidden in a slew of -1s.


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    Barry252

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:32 pm)

    Dave K.: For months math pointed to a Volt CS of 37.8 MPG. Current CAB testing commonly reports an initial battery range of about 40 miles when using a moderate driving style. And a bit more initial range, 42 miles per charge, when making an effort to watch the efficiency gauge. Air conditioning and heater use weigh on initial battery range. Most drivers will achieve a real world Volt initial range on battery of about 38 miles followed by about 38 mpg on liquid fuel. Initial battery range is covered under warranty by GM for 8 years. With at least 80% performance (31 miles) expected for several years thereafter.By Spring of 2011 over 8000 Volts will be on the road. Most will easily reduce the drivers liquid fuel use by 80% or more. 40 miles per day at 1.6 gallons of gas for 8000 drivers. Will drop to 40 miles per day at .1 gallon of gas for 8000 drivers. 1.5 gallons of gas unburned for 8000 Volts = 12,000 gallons of unneeded liquid fuel per day.12,000 gallons of unneeded liquid fuel per day = 2,520,000 gallons (minimum) of liquid fuel saved for the remainder of 2011 (210 days) by Chevrolet Volt owners.=D-Volt  (Quote)  (Reply)

    SWEET!!! Nice stats, Dave! I was just thinking of putting together a list but you beat me to it! I intend to do mostly AEV driving, just using the CS mode when necessary. I can’t wait.

    Load ‘em up and get ‘em on down the road!! Please use care when handling VIN #63!

    Now, should I get one of those giant bows to put on it for Christmas?


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    Murrcar

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:32 pm)

    I can also shed some light on how CARB forced GM to modify how the Volt runs on the Emissions test.
    First they required GM to a volt until the battery was fully discharged to calcculate the MPGe. Then park the car over night to get a ‘cold’ start. After the engine started was required to CONTINUE running untill ALL the engine OBD diagnostics ran and completed. NO other gas engine vehicle including the Prius have this requirement. The fuel economy on the FTP would have been higher without this requirement. This requirement was because of the infrequent engine running duty cycle of the Volt.

    I also heard that Toyota tried to pull a fast one on CARB with the PIP where the OBD diagnostics almost never ran to completion, based on the PIP LA development fleet data, and CARB shot them down telling them it was unacceptable.


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    DonC

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:43 pm)

    Jeff: I know the actual carbon footprint will be smaller if you charge at night, and it will improve over time as the power generation mix gets cleaner, and maybe if you factor in the well-to-pump and mine-to-power-plant inefficiencies it would look better for the Volt… but still.

    First of all, focusing exclusively on CO2 is a mistake. Gas burning vehicles spew a tremendous amount of pollution and a lot of emissions besides CO2. Those emissions and pollution are greatly reduced or eliminated with an EV. Second, eliminating oil strengthens the economy and national security. A car that burns gas like the Prius doesn’t help. Third, the oil companies have not released any information about how much energy it takes to deliver the gas to your tank, and estimates put that number far higher than what you’ve used — far higher. Fourth, the national average for CO2 emissions for the grid is meaningless. On average you might be just the right temperature if you head is in the oven and your feet in a freezer but you won’t be comfortable. In fact the only place where the Volt will emit more CO2, even not accounting for the CO2 needed to deliver gas to your tank, is in the Illinois region. In places like CA it’s not even close because the grid is relatively clean. Fifth, the grid is getting cleaner everywhere in a relatively short time. A good and useful analysis looks out the front window not in the rear view mirror. Looking at emissions in the grid today and not tomorrow is simply looking in the rear view mirror.


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    Nelson

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:49 pm)

    Now it’s official! The Volt is the true “Dual Fuel Vehicle.”

    NPNS!


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    DonC

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:50 pm)

    john1701a: With the revelation of only 35 being on the window-sticker and knowing the demands of Heater and A/C use will reduce it further, adjustments later would seem to be in order…  

    That’s mostly already baked into the reduction factor. If you claim the Prius gets better than 50 MPG in the frozen tundra then you should claim the Volt will go further than 35 miles in CS Mode in the frozen tundra. The tests are the same. You can’t have it both ways.


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    ClarksonCote

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:51 pm)

    Murrcar: ClarksonCote, No I used to calculate CAFE fuel economy for GM. That is the formula used by EPA for average of city and highway tests FE = 1/ ( .55/City + .45/Hwy)for example if you take two vehiclesVehicle one (elec)drives 64 miles at 93 mpg =.688 galvehicle 2 (gas) drives 36 miles at 37 mpg = .973 galtotal fuel used = 1.661 gal AVERAGE Fuel economy for 100 miles is 100/1.661 =60.2 MPG  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Thanks, that makes sense now. Looking closer at the math along with your explanation, it makes sense that you can’t just average the weighted MPG numbers together. It’s just less intuitive that more electric driving doesn’t yield a larger MPG. I’ll blame that on using MPG in the first place, which certainly pre-dates the EPA Economy guides. ;)

    Thanks again!

    join thE REVolution


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    Raymondjram

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:55 pm)

    MikeD.: Wednesday December 1st – NatGEO TVMegafactories: Chevy Volthttp://natgeotv.com/uk/megafactories/videos/chevy-voltShould be an awesome show.    

    I believe that this is an old show that was shown before, based on the preproduction, not the present production line. It is still interesting to see how the Volt is put together almost completely by human hands and very little use of robots. The real production has more robotic production.

    Raymond


  121. 121
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (7:59 pm)

    Jeff: First off, I’m not a Volt-hater. I test drove one on Saturday and loved it. That said… I’m officially very, very sad. I just crunched the numbers for lbs of CO2 per mile for the 2011 Volt vs the 2011 Prius.Volt = 0.499 lbs/miPrius = 0.391 lbs/mi:’-(Is there anything wrong with my math???Assumptions:Volt All-Eletric efficiency = .36 kW/mi*Volt CS MPG = 37mpgVolt, Percentage of miles driven All-Electric = 85%Prius MPG = 50Eletricity CO2 lbs/kWh = 1.37* (Approximate national average)Gasoline CO2 lbs/gallon = 19.56**I didn’t factor in energy/emissions used to pump/mine/transport gasoline or power plant fuels. Only pump-to-wheels and outlet-to-wheels.I know the actual carbon footprint will be smaller if you charge at night, and it will improve over time as the power generation mix gets cleaner, and maybe if you factor in the well-to-pump and mine-to-power-plant inefficiencies it would look better for the Volt… but still. My balloon is feeling popped at this point. (Guess I should’ve done these calculations earlier instead of buying into the Tesla White Paper claims showing enormous CO2 reductions with electric cars without properly scrutinizing it.)  (Quote)  (Reply)

    I’ve seen arguments that say overnight charging will result in ZERO additional emissions from power plants. The reason being is that many fossil fueled plants can only idle so low during off-peak hours, and the demand at night is far lower than they are able to idle. The result is a lot of potential electricity being dissipated as heat in the power plants.

    I’ve heard that well over 10% of all passenger cars could be electrics charging at night with literally no additional fossil fuels being consumed because of this. It might have even been as high as 50%.

    Factoring this actuality into the equation greatly favors plug-ins over gasoline-only vehicles. It’s also a great reason for utility companies to give significantly lower rates to EV’s when charging overnight.

    join thE REVolution


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    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:09 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    john1701a

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:11 pm)

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    Dan Durston

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:11 pm)

    Surprisingly good label. Nice job EPA.


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    speedy

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:12 pm)

    IQ130,
    Funny how people keep trying to figure out were that number is coming from. Yet that number is coming from were they (EPA), did’nt plug it in or give it a full charge.


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    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:15 pm)

    EricLG: You may have heard it, but it is hogwash.Read the national energy lab studies: GHG output/kwh goes UP at night. And as Jeff figured out, a Volt emits much more GHG/mile than a Prius.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Of course GHG/kWh goes up at night, that’s exactly my point… They can only idle the plants so low (not low enough to match the lower demand), and as a result, the amount of GHG produced per unit kWh consumed goes up a whole bunch.

    My point is that if the EV’s (Volts, Leafs, Plug-in Prius) use that additional bandwidth of the plants that are idled as low as they can go, then there will be no ADDITIONAL GHG generated by said EV’s.

    Do you agree?

    join thE REVolution


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    Tagamet

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:15 pm)

    MikeD.: Wednesday December 1st – NatGEO TVMegafactories: Chevy Volthttp://natgeotv.com/uk/megafactories/videos/chevy-voltShould be an awesome show.    

    Excellent show. I dvr’d it and watch it a couple of times a month. I should get out more (g).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:16 pm)

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    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:19 pm)

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    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:23 pm)

    EricLG: It is not kwh consumed, it is kwh produced. And it happens because the source fuels shift more towards coal and away from NG.Sorry, it is a fairy tale for all practical purposes.READ the NREL study, or the UC Davis study, or the Oak Ridge study.Inform yourself  (Quote)  (Reply)

    You’re our guest, not the other way. Cite some of your own sources (links to papers) and back up your ASSertions.

    join thE REVolution


  131. 131
    Tagamet

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:37 pm)

    I’ve read every comment (except the trolls’) and I’m disappointed to see that good folks here are not only engaging them, but also quoting them. (Shakes head slowly). Maybe it somehow makes the responders feel better that they’ve “set the record straight”, but all they have done is reward delusional zealots. We’ve had a lot of great debates here over the years. Statik and I would approach verbal fisticuffs. Now it’s just good folks trying to correct intentionally misguided, ill-informed posts (which mislead new readers here) – either by reason or by ranting. Not only does neither work, they both reward the knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers which INCREASES their misbehavior/misinformation. Oh, and it eventually reduces me to name calling.
    On that note, I’ll call it a night.

    Tagamet


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    IQ130

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:38 pm)

    speedy: IQ130,
    Funny how people keep trying to figure out were that number is coming from.Yet that number is coming from were they (EPA), did’nt plug it in or give it a full charge.    

    I corrected the example table of the EPA as they forgot to use the 93 MPGe for the first 35 miles driven on electricity when combining electric and gas miles.


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    Jackson

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:39 pm)

    Must be good news. The Trolls are inconsolable. ;-)

    .


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    Jay

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:44 pm)

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    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:44 pm)

    EricLG: My final comment on this:

    Taken from http://energytech.pnl.gov/publications/pdf/PHEV_Economic_Analysis_Part2_Final.pdf ……

    …the current spare capacity could generate and deliver the necessary energy to power the majority of the U.S. light-duty vehicle fleet, if that fleet consisted of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs). If this occurred, it would reduce greenhouse gas emissions, improve the economics of the electricity industry, and reduce the U.S. dependency on foreign oil.

    Amen to that! And goodnight to all.

    join thE REVolution


  136. 136
    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:46 pm)

    Tagamet: I’ve read every comment (except the trolls’) and I’m disappointed to see that good folks here are not only engaging them, but also quoting them. (Shakes head slowly). Maybe it somehow makes the responders feel better that they’ve “set the record straight”, but all they have done is reward delusional zealots. We’ve had a lot of great debates here over the years. Statik and I would approach verbal fisticuffs. Now it’s just good folks trying to correct intentionally misguided, ill-informed posts (which mislead new readers here) – either by reason or by ranting. Not only does neither work, they both reward the knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers which INCREASES their misbehavior/misinformation. Oh, and it eventually reduces me to name calling.On that note, I’ll call it a night.Tagamet  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Thanks Tag, I have to remind myself that when I think a conversation will be civil with a troll, it won’t be. And then I have to remind myself not to turn less-than civil myself.

    Have a good night, my friend.

    join thE REVolution


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    john1701a

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:50 pm)

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    Loboc

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:50 pm)

    EricLG: READ the NREL study, or the UC Davis study, or the Oak Ridge study.

    I prefer the Homer Simpson study. It makes way more sense.


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    PowerEngineer

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:54 pm)

    EricLG,
    Peaking plants are mostly NG, baseload are coal and nuclear. Wind is so small as to be insignificant. At night the baseload units produce power at about twice the thermal efficiency of the best internal combustion engine, and of course nuclear plants use no fossil fuels at all. If you are a greenhouse-gas guy, the better efficiency of electric generation gives more energy per opund of CO2, no matter the fuel.


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    Tagamet

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:56 pm)

    ClarksonCote: Have a good night, my friend.

    Night Bud, Have a great turkey and quit giving ELG the bird (they enjoy it). (g)

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (8:57 pm)

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    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:00 pm)

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    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:04 pm)

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    baltimore17

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:06 pm)

    EricLG: Read the studies on the subject. Marginal electricity supply in the US is NG and coal, with relative proportions depending where you live.

    The term is “baseload” and includes coal and nuclear. These are the plants that would be charging the Volt and other EVs overnight. “Peaking” power plants, used to meet afternoon peak demands, are often gas turbine, fueled by natural gas. The invented term “marginal electricity supply” would more properly refer to peaking plants than baseload plants.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_load_power_plant
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant


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    Hodginator

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:08 pm)

    EricLG, Depends on the pack

    Sorry, I must have missed that option with the Prius. Oh wait it doesn’t exist. Stop comparing after market with production.


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    JEC

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:09 pm)

    13 Kwhr @ .12/Kwhr = $1.56

    at 35 mpc, that would mean your spending about 1/2 as much as a pure gasser that gets 35 mpg. This assumes a gas price of $3.12/gal.

    Things are not as rosy, when you look at the pure economics, which we all know they really never were going to be in the rose garden of affordability.

    But, if the charger efficiency is only about 80%, that seems like a real issue, on its own. So, why is the charger so inefficient? Or, is GM not telling us the whole story?

    Does anyone know what the efficiency rating is for the Leaf? This would be an even larger impact for the leaf, since it is installing more electrons than the Volt.

    Finagles Law of Understanding, specifically the 3rd law of Understanding (google it) is coming to mind about now…


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    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:10 pm)

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  148. 148
    Jeff

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:10 pm)

    DonC: First of all, focusing exclusively on CO2 is a mistake. Gas burning vehicles spew a tremendous amount of pollution and a lot of emissions besides CO2. Those emissions and pollution are greatly reduced or eliminated with an EV. Second, eliminating oil strengthens the economy and national security. A car that burns gas like the Prius doesn’t help. Third, the oil companies have not released any information about how much energy it takes to deliver the gas to your tank, and estimates put that number far higher than what you’ve used — far higher. Fourth, the national average for CO2 emissions for the grid is meaningless. On average you might be just the right temperature if you head is in the oven and your feet in a freezer but you won’t be comfortable. In fact the only place where the Volt will emit more CO2, even not accounting for the CO2 needed to deliver gas to your tank, is in the Illinois region. In places like CA it’s not even close because the grid is relatively clean. Fifth, the grid is getting cleaner everywhere in a relatively short time. A good and useful analysis looks out the front window not in the rear view mirror. Looking at emissions in the grid today and not tomorrow is simply looking in the rear view mirror.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    With all due respect, every car customer decides for themselves what qualities to prioritize in a vehicle. For me, personally, GHG emissions is at the top of my list, and it’s the specific reason that I was so excited about the Volt. (That, and also would really like my first NEW car to be American-made.)

    I do acknowledge the benefits of reduced oil imports and less (non-GHG) air pollution.

    But I would strongly object to the assertion that “the national average for CO2 emissions for the grid is meaningless”. In fact, I’d say just the opposite. What other figure could possibly be more appropriate for a broad-based analysis on overall emissions? (And I don’t have any idea what any of this has to sticking one’s head in the oven.)

    And why you gotta be hatin’ on IL, dude?!?!? You’re dead wrong about our energy mix. As a state, we’re better on GHG than the national average. (47% coal, but that’s offset by 43% nuke) In fact, we get just as much from nuclear+renewables as California. (45%) Look it up. http://www.eia.doe.gov/state/ And in Northern IL (go Bears!) in particular, we get most of our power from nuclear, which is probably the perfect source for charging EV’s at night. So for me, personally, it probably still makes a lot of sense to get a Volt to reduce GHG’s. But that’s not going to be the case for many people in many states, especially if they don’t make a point of charging at night.


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    Jeff

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:12 pm)

    Uh, oh. EricLG mentioned my previous post in a positive light.

    I must’ve done something horribly, horribly wrong. ;-)


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    flmark

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:15 pm)

    With my homes in NY and FL, I have been waiting for one number- highway CS, which is 40 mpg. While the Volt is at each home, use will be mostly electric and I won’t pay much attention to gas usage. I have been awaiting news on what it will cost me to get the vehicle from one house to the other. It turns out to be very good news. While our Prius has been driven permanently off to Texas by our son, when it was here, it was our yardstick of performance. I note that while its EPA rating was in the mid 40’s, we were able to easily get low 50s mpg. So now we get a Volt, which provides only slightly less mpg (I’ll assume I can get mid 40s). The math tells me I would use 31 gallons in the Volt vs 27 gallons in the Prius to make the trip. HEY ERICLG, SHUT UP ALREADY, THIS DIFFERENCE IS NEGLIGIBLE. Now I get my Volt to its destination and then almost no gas. I find it unfathomable that this bozo is still whining so loudly. The Prius is now an ‘also-ran’ and yesterday’s news. Go Volt!


  151. 151
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:22 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  152. 152
    pjkPA

    +5

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:25 pm)

    Does this sticker reflect any real world numbers reported?
    I have not seen any that are under 100mpg?

    Lyle is getting over 150mpg routinely… so what good is this sticker?


  153. 153
    EricLG

    -26

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:29 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  154. 154
    pjkPA

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:29 pm)

    john1701a:
    Are saying I should outright subtract 5 from all the summer months, reducing the 40 to 35 ?
    .
    ACTUAL real-world data reveals 46.1 mpg for the Winter months and 50.6 mpg for Summer (the rest of the year).    

    It was reported on our local TV news that Prius drivers are getting 26mpg in our area in the winter months and we are 150 miles south of the Canadian border.


  155. 155
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:32 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  156. 156
    theflew

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:34 pm)

    @Jay

    Get a Leaf if you like it more. You don’t have to try to convince people on a Volt forum.


  157. 157
    EricLG

    -19

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:36 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  158. 158
    IQ130

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:41 pm)

    “60 MPG is the official overall combined number (MPGe + MPG) of fuel economy behavior over lifetime of the vehicle.”

    You will get 60 MPG combined when driving 55 miles (35 miles on electricity with 93 MPGe and 20 miles on gas with 37 MPG).

    (35M + 20M) / ((35M/93MPGe) + (20M/37MPG)) = 60 MPG(e)

    So according to the EPA the average driver will drive 35/55 = 64% on electricity.


  159. 159
    JCook

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:42 pm)

    And to think of all the negative votes I got for my predictions on CS mpg and for MPGe in electric mode. Once again that ocean front property is in Yuma if there are any takers. My #’s were 38 CS highway and 94 MPGe. I was never a Volt basher, In fact I am a supporter but just a realist and Engineer. This day is truly a great one for me!!


  160. 160
    Loboc

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:42 pm)

    JEC: (google it)

    Telling someone to “(google it)” is pretty much the same as saying eff-off.

    -1 for you.


  161. 161
    Tall Pete

     

    Tall Pete
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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:43 pm)

    Tagamet,

    I cannot agree more.


  162. 162
    greenWin

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:49 pm)

    John: he thing about a gallon of gas converted to CO2 does not include fuels burned during exploration for oil, building of refineries, pipeline construction, tankers moving oil from overseas to local refiners, trucking of gasoline to the stations, driving to/from a gas station and corporations overseeing all this work.

    John is right. Unfortunately, nobody who isn’t receiving a grant cares about CO2 anymore. People CARE about pocket book issues. Like, will this vehicle save me gas money? Is is good for my local economy? Are there North American JOBS being created? And way down at the bottom… is is nice to the environment?

    The answer to all the above is YES! And as John points out, should we figure the ACTUAL cost of a gallon of gas in the U.S. – it would be more like $8-9.00. CO2 will only stigmatize the Volt as a green “wus” vehicle that p1sses off conservatives like Rush and George Will.

    The Volt is leading the way to Energy Independence. Like Jim Woolsey was discussing. This is where it becomes revolutionary. It is leading us away from (VERY) expensive, foreign oil.


  163. 163
    BillR

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:51 pm)

    DonC:

    Tagamet:
    The sad truth is that I liked the Prius a lot before Eric showed up. LOLi will say though that I went through all the comments withoutseeing one of his — they were all hidden in a slew of -1s.    

    That’s everyone using their “Troll Be Gone” magic voting power.


  164. 164
    underdeliver

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:51 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  165. 165
    underdeliver

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (9:58 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  166. 166
    EricLG

    -22

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:06 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  167. 167
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:10 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  168. 168
    JCook

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:10 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  169. 169
    Tagamet

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:15 pm)

    Tall Pete: Tagamet,

    I cannot agree more.

    Thanks. I guess that we have *at least* two votes for an “IGNORE BUTTON”. (g).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  170. 170
    JEC

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:15 pm)

    Loboc:
    Telling someone to “(google it)” is pretty much the same as saying eff-off.
    -1 for you.    

    Really? Not where I work. Google is the most powerful tool available when searching for information. If your not interested, then don’t do it, but I would prefer that someone not cut/paste in an entire article and post it here.

    Sheesh!


  171. 171
    John

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:21 pm)

    https://www.teslamotors.com/display_data.php?data_name=range_blog2

    Every mile-per-hour demands something different in terms of wh/mile. There is no set value for that. What you want to find is what wh/mile you need for say 45mph and use that as a standard.


  172. 172
    Tagamet

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:31 pm)

    underdeliver,

    Lyle,
    Why is it that a word like “Yawn” can throw a post into moderation, and a post like this (and others) can soil the site in plain view? You’ve built a very popular site, but with that comes some responsibility. I’d be shocked if there is a stronger supporter of this site than I am, but….
    I have a miserable head/chest cold, so maybe I’m just over the line, but I’d sure hate to see today’s comments become the norm.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  173. 173
    EricLG

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:32 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  174. 174
    JCook

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:36 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  175. 175
    WopOnTour

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:46 pm)

    Wow all those crow feathers sticking out of his mouth- AND HE CAN STILL TALK!
    (well faint mumbles at least)
    LOL
    WOT


  176. 176
    Dave G

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:55 pm)

    john1701a: ACTUAL driving is what we should be using now.

    Your actual driving pattern is not typical, so if people like you plug in at work, that wouldn’t have a huge affect on the grid.

    On the other hand, if plug-in prices stay high, not many people will buy them. In that case, we’ll have a lot bigger problems to worry about, but straining the grid won’t be one of them.


  177. 177
    Big Bird

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:57 pm)

    Is it me, or are there some people that seem to be on the wrong fourm??

    It’s almost like they have NO LIFE and sit infront of their computer all alone in a dark, every night… hopping to engage anyone in a fight. Yup, EricLG, I am talking about you bud ;)


  178. 178
    giveusroom

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (10:57 pm)

    I don’t like the label. The concept of MPGe is more confusing than useful – bad idea. Cost of electricity varies significantly making the value unreliable, in addition to being misunderstood. Poorly thought out by the EPA. When discussing electricity use, the term “gallon” should not be part of the discussion, period. Estimated cost per mile in electric mode, followed by an indication of what electricity price that was based on, would have been a good alternative.

    But at least they provided a label and we can move on.


  179. 179
    Dave G

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:00 pm)

    Tagamet: The Prius is a great car and saves a huge amount of oil. And it’ll take a long time to close the gap between the shear number of them on the roads, before the Volt will surpass them at overall fuel savings nationally or world wide.

    Yes, well said, +1.


  180. 180
    srschrier

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:03 pm)

    I believe the EPA’s numbers will improve further as the Volt’s technologies evolve.

    Last Saturday (Nov. 20, 2010) in Chicago I was privileged to have a lengthy test drive accompanied by two of the Volt’s power train design engineers. They’ve each been working with this project over three years and are as acutely aware as anyone of the car’s strengths and weaknesses. They both said engineering refinements of the Volt are ongoing and include reducing the car’s weight, increasing all-electric range and integrating different types of CS mode generators. To me, at least, it appears the Volt’s R&D efforts aren’t staying in neutral but are advancing constantly.

    Seeing and driving the Volt in person, in a big city street environment, was something shared by over 6,000 folks during the first nationwide tour. The red Volt was featured in Chicago’s Holiday Festival of Lights parade Saturday evening.


  181. 181
    Khadgars

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:07 pm)

    EricLG: click

    Are you kidding me Eric? Don’t try to come in here like you’re some neutral entity trying to reveal the “truth”, the amount of posts you’ve made on here clearly shows your intentions.

    The label does a decent job a revealing both the strengths and weakness of the vehicle. no one is claiming it to be the best vehicle for every one.

    It is how ever, extremely efficient for short commutes while still having a range of nearly 400 miles when you need it.

    Lyle’s real world testing shows the efficiency of the vehicle, which is also shown on the label with 45 mile commute = 168 mpg 60 mile commute= 89 mpg

    But using your fussy armchair math and reasoning you can make any vehicle on the road look bad but I’m not fooled by your bs.


  182. 182
    BillR

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:13 pm)

    Jeff,

    Reply to comment 111,

    Although the national average is 1.37 lb/kwh for electricity, it is only about .662 lb/kwh in CA.

    http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/st_profiles/california.html

    Using this number, the CO2 per mile for the Volt reduces to .282 lb/mi.

    So it can readily be seen that the grid must get cleaner if we are to significantly reduce CO2 (an MIT report last year points specifically at coal plants).


  183. 183
    Matthew B

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:17 pm)

    The method they used to come up with the 60 MPG number sucks. I’m fairly certain no owner will have a combined number that low.


  184. 184
    Hodginator

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:22 pm)

    EricLG: Why ? You can buy aftermarket Prius now, but you cannot buy a Volt.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    That’s odd since they are building my Volt right now. My Volt comes with a warranty and for less money than a new prius plus an aftermarket battery that voids the factory Prius warranty, provides less than half of the Volt’s range, and only runs in electric mode under 60MPH. Let’s not even begin to talk about the quality difference since a Prius interior, design appeal, and quality is inferior when compared to a Volt.

    Again, you try to make a point based in irrelevant information. That is why you get such a negative response. It’s unfortunate that you are so narrow-minded since you seem to be passionate about technology.


  185. 185
    john1701a

    -14

     

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:24 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  186. 186
    IQ130

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:28 pm)

    Matthew B: The method they used to come up with the 60 MPG number sucks.I’m fairly certain no owner will have a combined number that low.    

    You will get this number when driving 64% on electricity for instance a daily drive of 55 miles and charge overnight. I think most Volt drivers want to drive more than 70% on electricity, hopefully even 80% which gives 74 MPG(e) combined.


  187. 187
    Hodginator

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:30 pm)

    EricLG: I wonder. The vast majority of the US populace did not follow the Volt story close enough to watch the GM hype crash and burn, and certainly this forum demonstrates that the initial hype drew them in, and they stayed despite the eventual reality. Granted that the majority of the early Volt community have left disappointed, but I can argue that without the hype they would not have been interested at all, so even there the over-hype was a net positive.In any case, the Volt was a central part of GM’s strategy to gain its massive federal bailout. They really had little choice but to lie, lie, and lie.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    And by the majority that left you mean you. In reality I see many many people on this forum who have been here since 2008 and are still posting positive information. The conspiracy you love so much is only in your head.


  188. 188
    Khadgars

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    Nov 24th, 2010 (11:50 pm)

    JCook: Overpromise and Underdeliver is right.If GM had said 30 mile electric range and 35 mpg in CS mode 2 years ago this would be a whole different set of postings.I have also talked about this on this site many times and got neg votes for it.The Volt is actually a great car but trying to sell it to the average cosumer will be harder now because they will be skeptical.GM needs to have story time at work for the execs and marketing “The boy who cried wolf” would be the first story.    

    Really, then wheres the uproar about the Leaf getting 27 miles LESS THAN what they advertised. The Leaf was advertised to get 100 miles AER yet it’s getting 73.

    It has to do with how the EPA is ESTIMATING driving conditions then shaves off a little off the top, they do this with other vehicles too.

    Take a look at Lyle’s and Motor Trends actual driving logs and you’ll see achieving 50 miles or more AER is easy.

    But I know you won’t because you’ll bash the Volt regardless. Pathetic.


  189. 189
    Hodginator

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:00 am)

    EricLG: Face it folks, the EPA label makes the Volt look like a POS:Prius — 50 mpg, $20-25K + taxVolt — 60 mpg, $41k + tax – $7500  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Nope, ericLG you are wrong again. See the below comparably equiped Prius (directly from the Toyota website). That’s as close as a Prius can get to what the Volt offers and it still lacks some features the Volt has. Yes, that’s right $35,445 and it burns gas from mile number 1.

    Date: November 25, 2010
    Edit1.8 Liter 4-Cylinder, Prius V, Gas/Elec Hybrid (ECVT) $28,070EditAdvanced Technology Package (includes Navigation) with Options View DetailsAdvanced Technology Package (includes Navigation) with Additional Options: [AW] 17″ alloy wheels [AY] Dynamic Radar Cruise Control (DRCC) [14], Pre-Collision System (PCS) [22], Lane Keep Assist (LKA) [15], Intelligent Parking Assist (IPA) [16]; Navigation package includes Voice-activated touch-screen DVD navigation system [6] with JBL® AM/FM/MP3 4-disc CD changer, eight speakers, integrated satellite radio capability, XM NavTraffic® [6] [9] capability, hands-free phone capability and music streaming via Bluetooth® [5] wireless technology, USB [7] port with iPod [8] connectivity, integrated backup camera [10] and Safety Connect™ [21] [FE] 50 state emissions
    $5,180

    Classic Silver MetallicInterior:
    Prius IV/V – Leather in Dark GrayEditLower Rocker Molding [33] (BM) $209
    Carpet Floor Mats & Cargo Mat [33] (CF) $200
    Cargo organizer [33] (9H) $49
    Remote engine start [33] (V4) $529
    VIP RS3200 Plus Security System [33] (V5) $359
    Folding Carpeted Cargo Mat [34] (DI06) $89
    Accessory Total $1,435
    Toyota Care featuring Complimentary Maintenance Plan & Roadside Assistance $0
    Delivery, Processing & Handling Fee $760

    Prius Grand Total
    $35,445


  190. 190
    Adam

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:15 am)

    man, not to get off track, but there’s a lot of haters out there…..

    I’m glad GM is able to sell the car now, but I still can’t afford it, so I’ll let it be.

    Good day everybody! Peace! :-)


  191. 191
    Hodginator

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:27 am)

    I’m glad the EPA finally came out with a rating. It provides a lot of detail which is good, but it’s going to be tough for many consumers to understand. It is going to be up to dealers (and us) to make sense of it all and educate people.

    For all of those with orders in, this means we are one step closer to getting our Volts and helping the country reduce our dependency on foreign oil!


  192. 192
    Mark Z

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:29 am)

    While today’s early posters were typing, I was sitting in a beautiful VOLT at the LA Auto Show. Tried to find the EPA sticker, but none was posted, yet. Glad to see the results here. Since the cars will be shipping soon, it’s time to get excited. No better place than the LA Auto Show.

    It’s the first auto show where the general public can sit in the Volt, open and close doors and hatchback. Great solid sounding door closings. The hood was locked down for these non-sellable production Volts. Since I didn’t get to enjoy the recent test drives, this was a treat. The controls were active, so everyone could spin a knob or push a button and see the result on the dashboard screens; (change fan speed too!)

    The Volt area had a nice crowd throughout the day. Many were enjoying driving a “Volt” using XBox video games. All three of the recent Volt awards were in a large plastic case and beautifully lit. Free Camaro Convertible Hot Wheels were given away too. Lots of excitement and the crowds loved it.

    It was also fun to see the other cars that Lyle had posted topics about earlier in the week. The Honda EV Fit area was almost deserted. Fisker would only allow their car to be viewed from outside their show area (customers who had ordered could sit in the car.) The plug in Prius was hidden towards the back of Toyota’s area. The RAV4 EV looks good and I enjoyed seeing the Cadillac concept with those raised doors. I highly recommend that anyone in the LA area go to the show before it closes. (Ask to see the charge ports on the Leaf, the level 3 charge connection is huge. Get some mints at the Coda Automotive area (EV to compete against Leaf.)

    One last thing… Edison personnel showed me a rate chart that was different than what their online rate sheets show. It was worse than the online rate sheet. 55 cents per kilowatt hour for the daytime tier 2 summer EV rate for ONE meter. Avoid disappointment and check with your utility company and consider getting a second electric meter.


  193. 193
    DonC

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:36 am)

    Jeff: And why you gotta be hatin’ on IL, dude?!?!?

    Sorry Jeff, not hatin on IL. It’s just fact. Look at page 10 and compare IL to CA. 73% coal vs. 13% coal is not close.

    http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/559.pdf

    As for CO2 being the big and only issue for you, then coal will work because you can sequester CO2 from coal plants. It’s just that this won’t prevent the other health and environmental disasters related to coal. It’s great to cut down on CO2 but not at the cost of increasing lung cancers.


  194. 194
    bookdabook

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:47 am)

    An EPA Fuel Economy Label for the Volt Haiku

    Small piece of paper,
    We’ve waited so long for you.
    Now the cars will come.

    sorry guys, selfishly awaiting my #135 white diamond,
    -Book


  195. 195
    DonC

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:48 am)

    JCook: You are correct but there would have been just as much hype with 30 mile electric and 35 mpg CS prediction three years ago with no loss of faith.

    I’m not trying to pick on you at all, it’s just that you had the most convenient comment to respond to. So this is directed at a whole range of similar comments. My question is this: Nissan has been promising the Leaf would have a 100 mile range for over a year. GM has been promising a 40 mile range. Turns out the EPA rates the range of the Leaf at 73 miles and the range for the Volt at 35 miles. That means GM was off by 12.5% and Nissan was off by 27%. And you think GM has a problem overpromising? If you like, just think of the Volt as delivering 50 miles of all electric range on the LA4 Cycle.

    IOW don’t you think you’re applying a different standard to GM on the one hand and the Toyotas and the Nissans of the world on the other? Seems to me that GM got more than twice as close as Nissan, and Toyota is a joke with the lame PIP, which is still “under development”. So why not congratulate GM on its obvious success rather than acting like a 5 mile AER is such a big deal. The iPad doesn’t do Flash. So what? It’s still beats hell out of everything else in the category. I’m not a GM guy in but this constant nitpicking over nothing goes beyond all reason.


  196. 196
    nasaman

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:49 am)

    Matthew B: The method they used to come up with the 60 MPG number sucks. I’m fairly certain no owner will have a combined number that low.

    IQ130: You will get this number when driving 64% on electricity for instance a daily drive of 55 miles and charge overnight. I think most Volt drivers want to drive more than 70% on electricity, hopefully even 80% which gives 74 MPG(e) combined.

    I agree with you both that the combined figure of 60MPGe is overly pessimistic. Guess we just have to “chalk it up” to the EPA’s overly conservative bias (I think I read it’s as much as 30% in some cases?)

    /BTW, I deliberately stayed off here today because I didn’t care to waste time or show the numerous “knuckle-draggin’, mouth-breathin’” dorks (as I believe Tag said it, Ha Ha!) the dignity of “word fencing” with them.


  197. 197
    Khadgars

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (1:08 am)

    Hodginator,

    Thank you so much for posting this.

    Every one always depicts the Prius at it’s lowest entry level price, which in fact is not what is normally purchased and is almost not worth driving.

    The Prius as you so well demonstrated easily reaches over $30k routinely and as high as $35k, good lord the Volt owns that for lunch!


  198. 198
    Khadgars

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    Khadgars
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (1:10 am)

    Hodginator:
    Nope, ericLG you are wrong again.See the below comparably equiped Prius (directly from the Toyota website). That’s as close as a Prius can get to what the Volt offers and it still lacks some features the Volt has.Yes, that’s right $35,445 and it burns gas from mile number 1.Date: November 25, 2010
    Edit1.8 Liter 4-Cylinder, Prius V, Gas/Elec Hybrid (ECVT) $28,070EditAdvanced Technology Package (includes Navigation) with Options View DetailsAdvanced Technology Package (includes Navigation) with Additional Options: [AW] 17″ alloy wheels [AY] Dynamic Radar Cruise Control (DRCC) [14], Pre-Collision System (PCS) [22], Lane Keep Assist (LKA) [15], Intelligent Parking Assist (IPA) [16]; Navigation package includes Voice-activated touch-screen DVD navigation system [6] with JBL® AM/FM/MP3 4-disc CD changer, eight speakers, integrated satellite radio capability, XM NavTraffic® [6] [9] capability, hands-free phone capability and music streaming via Bluetooth® [5] wireless technology, USB [7] port with iPod [8] connectivity, integrated backup camera [10] and Safety Connect™ [21] [FE] 50 state emissions
    $5,180Classic Silver MetallicInterior:
    Prius IV/V – Leather in Dark GrayEditLower Rocker Molding [33] (BM) $209
    Carpet Floor Mats & Cargo Mat [33] (CF) $200
    Cargo organizer [33] (9H) $49
    Remote engine start [33] (V4) $529
    VIP RS3200 Plus Security System [33] (V5) $359
    Folding Carpeted Cargo Mat [34] (DI06) $89
    Accessory Total $1,435
    Toyota Care featuring Complimentary Maintenance Plan & Roadside Assistance $0
    Delivery, Processing & Handling Fee $760
    Prius Grand Total
    $35,445    

    Thank you so much for posting this.

    Every one always depicts the Prius at it’s lowest entry level price, which in fact is not what is normally purchased and is almost not worth driving.

    The Prius as you so well demonstrated easily reaches over $30k routinely and as high as $35k, good lord the Volt owns that for lunch!


  199. 199
    Volt45

    +6

     

    Volt45
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (1:39 am)

    In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF66aVPhPfc&feature=channel

    … on the new F150 Ecoboost engine, Ford vehicle engineering manager, Jeff Lewis, says:

    “Y’know, you talk about the Chevy Volt… They’ll sell 20,000 of those.
    I’m gonna sell Ecoboost to 200,000 guys, that are putting on 20, 30, 40,000 miles a year of work.
    The fuel economy increase those guys are gettin’ over what they drive today…
    it’s got a big environmental impact.”

    #1.
    When your competition casually uses your hot new product as a yardstick for comparison — no matter what is being discussed — your hot new product is the de facto Car of the Year, and you don’t need no magazine to tell you that… Your car is actually self evident.

    #2.
    GM! Ford is making fun of your pathetic, piddly little nothing of a production figure!
    What are you gonna do about that, HUH ?!?!
    There’s really only one thing I can think of for you to save face here, GM…. it’s a matter of pride and honor and you must… must increase the bust…

    200,000 or BUST !


  200. 200
    crew

    +1

     

    crew
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (1:46 am)

    Toyota?
    What’s a Toyota?


  201. 201
    Mark Z

    +5

     

    Mark Z
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (1:58 am)

    bookdabook: …awaiting my #135 white diamond…

    Book – That “beautiful Volt at the LA Auto Show” I was sitting in, was the dazzling white diamond. GM hit a home run with the depth of finish. A jewel of a car. Enjoy!

    To all – Enjoy a Happy Thanksgiving!


  202. 202
    Matthew B

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (2:36 am)

    Nick G: The Volt and Leaf will mostly charge at night, when nuclear and wind power provide more than 50% of electricity.

    Your numbers are a ways off. Coal plants usually run all out at night too. Natural gas and hydro make up the variable part of the generation.

    If is more like 70% coal 30% nuclear with wind lost in the rounding.


  203. 203
    Alex F

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (4:53 am)

    NJ Renewable Energy /EJH,

    The measures used are quite different. When people say they see 250 MPG on their Volts, that means they only need to burn one gallon of gasoline to drive 250 miles; the amount of electricity used is not considered in the calculation. This type of measurement is more indicative of the driving pattern than car’s efficiency in EV mode. The 93 MPGe number describes the Volt’s efficiency per unit of energy when driven in EV mode.


  204. 204
    pjkPA

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    pjkPA
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (5:51 am)

    Lyle’s real world driving log:

    Chevrolet Volt Driving Log On November 11th I became one of the first consumers in the United States to take a Chevrolet Volt home. I am driving and living with it for 90 days as a member of the Volt advisory board.

    I started a table below showing how I am using the car, both with respect to electricity and gasoline.

    The car was charged to full overnight each day and during the day wherever possible.

    My typical commute is 30 miles each way, mostly on the highway between 60 and 70 MPH and I have from 4 to 8 hours to charge the car at 120-v during the day. At night the car is charged at 240-v. There is 10.6 kwh of usable energy in the battery.

    Date Total Miles EV Miles CS Miles Gallons Total MPG
    11-10-2010 63.5 52.8 10.7 0.32 200.7
    11-11-2010 59.3 59.3 0 0 infinite
    11-12-2010 60.4 30.6 29.8 0.72 83.9
    11-13-2010 88.5 52.5 36 0.75 118
    11-14-2010 79.9 42.2 37.7 1.09 72.9
    11-15-2010 59 59 0 0 infinite
    11-16-2010 59.3 59.3 0 0 infinite
    11-17-2010 24.9 24.9 0 0 infinite
    11-18-2010 73.3 60.6 12.7 0.34 215
    11-19-2010 60.8 55.3 5.5 0.13 467.7
    11-20-2010 27.9 27.9 0 0 infinite
    11-21-2010 101.7 42.5 59.2 1.85 55.0
    11-22-2010 59.3 55.6 3.7 .07 847
    TOTAL 817.8 622.5 195.3 5.27 155

    Real world driving… 155 mpg… EPA sticker… useless.


  205. 205
    pjkPA

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    pjkPA
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (6:21 am)

    Someone I know just ordered a VOLT which will cost him $34,000.

    I was just at a FORD dealership helping my god child by a nice used Ford Escape… in the used car show room was a used FORD TARUS for $36,000. And I was amazed at how many stickers were on new and used cars that were over $35,000. I bought my last new Buick 4 years ago.. it was $20,600 loaded with many options.

    For the technolgy you get in the VOLT and how good it looks… the price is looking better and better considering you also will also be saving a good bit of money on gas.


  206. 206
    Ray@Diy solar panels

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (6:38 am)

    This is amazing :) I’m very happy with EPA results : ) let’s hope people will truly see the value of VOLT now and if demand is big they will build more volts next year for sure


  207. 207
    BDP

     

    BDP
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (6:47 am)

    After seeing this sticker, one has to wonder what took so long to get that out?

    But then you realize the politics & government involvement and it makes sense………..


  208. 208
    nasaman

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (6:51 am)

    Want to explain the Volt’s mileage to family members as you all “transfer the stuffing from the bird to the humans” today? Try a neat little web site: http://www.cost2drive.com

    Here’s what I did: Entered my son’s home address and his office address, the year/make/model of his car & clicked “MY COST TO DRIVE”. For his 2007 Honda Accord the answer is $1.41 each way.

    Clicked “Edit Trip”: (It retains the addresses) I entered 2011 Chevy Volt. Ans: $0.16 each way.

    I printed this on a single sheet, Accord on 1 side, Volt on the flip side & will give it to him at noon. Think that’ll help explain the Volt & “raise the Voltage” at dinner? I’ll post his response this evening.

    /Try http://www.cost2drive.com —it’s preliminary but trust me, you’ll LOVE its ease & clarity!
    .


  209. 209
    Loboc

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (8:32 am)

    nasaman,
    My cars:
    Dodge Magnum = 2.54
    Dodge 1500 = 3.26
    Chevy Impala = 2.18

    Chevy Volt = 0.48
    Toyota Prius = 0.91
    LEAF is not on their list.

    Yikes!


  210. 210
    Raymondjram

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (8:36 am)

    crew: Toyota?
    What’s a Toyota?    

    It is something that came from Japan, started to grow like a bad skin fungus, had people fooled by bad ads saying that is was the best, got burned this year, and is been eradicated by the GM engineers. That name will become synonymous with Edsel soon.

    Raymond


  211. 211
    john1701a

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (8:57 am)

    Khadgars: Every one always depicts the Prius at it’s lowest entry level price, which in fact is not what is normally purchased and is almost not worth driving.

    That totally misses the point though.

    It’s having the choice.

    One size does not fit all.


  212. 212
    JEC

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (8:59 am)

    nasaman: Want to explain the Volt’s mileage to family members as you all “transfer the stuffing from the bird to the humans” today? Try a neat little web site: http://www.cost2drive.com Here’s what I did: Entered my son’s home address and his office address, the year/make/model of his car & clicked “MY COST TO DRIVE”. For his 2007 Honda Accord the answer is $1.41 each way.Clicked “Edit Trip”: (It retains the addresses) I entered 2011 Chevy Volt. Ans: $0.16 each way.I printed this on a single sheet, Accord on 1 side, Volt on the flip side & will give it to him at noon. Think that’ll help explain the Volt & “raise the Voltage” at dinner? I’ll post his response this evening./Try http://www.cost2drive.com —it’s preliminary but trust me, you’ll LOVE its ease & clarity!
    .    

    Nasaman,

    I am thinking this is not possible. How can it cost .16? assuming the Accord gets about 25 mpg, and gas is $3/gal. that means your son’s drive is only about 1 mile each way. This would be based on a 8 cents/Kw-hr. Which, the Volt uses about 350w/mile, so that would mean he drove only 3 miles each way.

    But if the Accord used 1/2 gal. of gas to go to and from work, then he must be driving at least 8 miles each way, for a total of 16 miles.

    Am I missing something?

    Happy Thanksgiving!


  213. 213
    JohnL

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (8:59 am)

    pius &amp; leaf are turkeys,

    I’m sure I will end up getting a bunch of -1′s for this but here we go. Outclassed? Maybe/probably. Let’s wait until more are on the road and people have experienced them. I was on this list from nearly the start and was excited by the volt, but unfortunately I couldn’t afford to wait and I wasn’t willing to pay the premium for the car. While I would like to own one, I got the opportunity to by a 2004 prius with extremely low mileage for 11K (the 30K I saved will buy a lot of gas).

    Anyway, I love my car. It’s quite, I can stack 9 foot lumber in it without even folding the seats down, it fits 5 comfortably. It’s ugly as hell and I am sure it will drive like crap in the winter (my friends who own them all have studded snow tires) but in balance if/when Toyota puts a bigger battery in it and gives me a plug, I’m not sure which will turn out to be ‘better’.

    When the batter is depleated is it really that much more efficient to have gas engine -> charge battery -> power wheels than have gas engine -> power wheels & charge battery in parallel?

    Time will tell but to make these kinds of cars do what they are intended the price has to come down and production has to go up.


  214. 214
    Dave G

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:02 am)

    crew: Toyota?
    What’s a Toyota?

    Toyota is the number 1 car maker in the world. Don’t underestimate them.

    During war, Generals spent a lot of time getting to know their enemy, how they think, their strengths and weaknesses. That’s what wins battles.

    It’s not so different in industry. You won’t get anywhere by ignoring your competition.


  215. 215
    JEC

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:09 am)

    EDIT TO MY COMMENT #112 (the edit feature did not work?)

    EDIT: I thought Nasaman was using total but he is saying use EACH way, so while my numbers do not jive with actual use, they still convey the same question. So, looks like the Accord is using 1/2 gal each way, for a total of 1 gal, and the Volt would be using 16 cents each way for a total of 32 cents.

    1/2 gal gas at 25 mpg == 12.5 mi. each way, for a total of 25 miles. So, then how do you travel 25 miles with the Volt and only use 32 cents? At 8 cents/Kwhr, that means you only used about 4 Kwhr, which would get you about 14 miles or so.


  216. 216
    Dave G

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:10 am)

    john1701a: That totally misses the point though.

    It’s having the choice.

    One size does not fit all.

    Yes, +1.

    I think the Volt should have a lower trim option as well, for example, with less acoustic insulation, more normal controls and displays, etc.


  217. 217
    JohnL

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:13 am)

    pjkPA,

    I’m 60 miles south of the border. The people I know that have Prius’s get around 42. I have been seeing 42 now, and it’s not winter – I’m expecting around 40. During the summer I was getting just under 50.


  218. 218
    nasaman

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:14 am)

    JEC, posts #212 & 215: Am I missing something?

    No, the site says data for the Volt is preliminary, as I said. I agree its very optimistic now for his short commute, but it seemed more plausible for a longer trip I tried. For now, it’s a 3rd party site that helps get the difficult Volt message across. I suspect it doesn’t yet reflect the 2-3 day old EPA results, but I plan to keep an eye on it for updating & for the Leaf (not yet included).


  219. 219
    bt

    +6

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:22 am)

    Call me old fashioned(or worse), but I still remember the thrill of the Prius announcement in Japan more than a decade ago, and the hope that such a car could make it over here.

    I remember, when gas prices spiked a couple of years ago, being excited to see Prius surge into the Top Ten models sold–suggesting many consumers were realizing they no longer wanted to be tied to the crazy world of petro juice pricing.

    With that homage being said, after driving the Volt and Leaf, I do indeed believe that Lyle and many of you have helped us move from evolution(aka the Prius) to revolution(EREV and EV) in the mobility that Americans hold so dear.

    These numbers from EPA certainly seem to validate GM’s work(and Nissan’s) and while we can pick at parts of the label, my review this morning after seeing it the first time last night says to me this is one heck of an achievement.

    And with only a little education(spell: Marketing–tho I’m still having trouble with “more car than electric”), tens of thousands of consumers will soon see the advantage of going electric.


  220. 220
    CG

    -11

     

    CG
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:36 am)

    (click to show comment)


  221. 221
    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:51 am)

    I wish GM could figure a way to sell the pre production and CAB Volts. I would take one as is where is, if at a price I could afford.


  222. 222
    nasaman

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:53 am)

    Here’s a simple, concise explanation/description of the Volt EPA label:

    http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/images/stories/EPA_Label_FINAL.pdf

    /Hope this isn’t a duplicate post —HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!


  223. 223
    pKIO3

     

    pKIO3
     Says

     

    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:56 am)

    nasaman,

    Intersting site. My normal commute to work will be all electric (~17 miles each way). The calculated costs are a little eye opening. Looking at the vehicles my family drives:
    ’90 Taurus – $2.03
    ’01 GMC Jimmy – $2.51
    ’06 HHR – $1.86
    ’08 Cobalt – $1.58

    Prius would cost – $0.85
    Volt would cost – $0.45

    I dug around on the site and for us in Houston, it was using $2.66/gal for gas cost which is what I paid this week. I backed out the Volt mileage and it appears to be calculating on 94 MPGe for my normal commute. I punched in a longer trip for the Volt and it ended up using a 60 MPGe. Not sure where it is getting its data but it’s an interesting exercise. Now just have to scrape together the pennies to get a Volt next year when the get to Houston.


  224. 224
    Dave G

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (9:59 am)

    Matthew B: Natural gas and hydro make up the variable part of the generation.

    Right.

    Pickens’ pie charts don’t reflect this reality. If we try to replace natural gas with wind, we’ll lose the ability to quickly vary output to match demand. So this part of Pickens’ plan doesn’t work.

    As for coal, at least it’s all domestic. We’re currently sending a billion dollars a day out of the country to buy foreign oil. Once we stop that bleeding, we’ll have the strength to ween ourselves off coal. In other words, we won’t have the economic resources to replace other fossil fuels until we’re energy independent, so we have to deal with oil first.


  225. 225
    bookdabook

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    Mark Z: bookdabook: …awaiting my #135 white diamond…

    Book – That “beautiful Volt at the LA Auto Show” I was sitting in, was the dazzling white diamond. GM hit a home run with the depth of finish. A jewel of a car. Enjoy!

    Yes, thanks for the positive comments on the color. I am going on faith here. I have combed every possible source for all possible pictures and movies of the white diamond and then studied them all with intense focus, replaying found video 2-3X. My Volt advisor said it was her favorite and my dealer said it will look like an extremely nice white. I found a nice image, probably here with a lush sunny green garden-type background that I used at the end of a work presentation to let everybody there know my car had been built last week. They all liked the color and had lots of questions. 2 of the guys were trying to rally me to be pissed at the EPA for not being ready with the label but I just told them I had faith it would be done since the Leaf label had come out that day.

    I’ve always had white cars but it was unusual to have to pay a premium for the color so I have been very curious to actually see it in person. It looks like the first time that will be is when I pick up the car, which odds are good is sometime next month. It is truly amazing this is about to happen.

    Selfishly awaiting my #135 white diamond (and time to go surfing, hey I’m in SD),
    -Book


  226. 226
    Dave G

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:07 am)

    giveusroom: When discussing electricity use, the term “gallon” should not be part of the discussion, period.

    I agree. Gallons of electricity is a ridiculous concept, and MPGe has nothing to do with energy independence.


  227. 227
    Dmitrii

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:17 am)

    EricLG & others

    How are you going to drive high-mpg Prius, when there would be no gasoline at the gas station?
    Even if Prius was electric, I would never drive it, because it is small (== dangerous) and ugly.

    Also, in the city where I live (it is not in USA) most of the electricity is generated by the hydroelectric dam and nuclear power plant at the nearby other city (and government is building new nuclear plants like crazy). How can hydro and nuclear powered car produce more pollution, than ICE one?!


  228. 228
    koz

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:25 am)

    JEC: EDIT TO MY COMMENT #112 (the edit feature did not work?)EDIT: I thought Nasaman was using total but he is saying use EACH way, so while my numbers do not jive with actual use, they still convey the same question. So, looks like the Accord is using 1/2 gal each way, for a total of 1 gal, and the Volt would be using 16 cents each way for a total of 32 cents. 1/2 gal gas at 25 mpg == 12.5 mi. each way, for a total of 25 miles. So, then how do you travel 25 miles with the Volt and only use 32 cents? At 8 cents/Kwhr, that means you only used about 4 Kwhr, which would get you about 14 miles or so.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    They’re probably using $3 gas and 200wh/mile. It needs to be updated.


  229. 229
    john1701a

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:34 am)

    Dmitrii:How are you going to drive high-mpg Prius, when there would be no gasoline at the gas station?
    Even if Prius was electric, I would never drive it, because it is small (== dangerous)…

    Huh? Volt is smaller.


  230. 230
    MichaelH

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:37 am)

    bookdabook: I’ve always had white cars but it was unusual to have to pay a premium for the color so I have been very curious to actually see it in person. It looks like the first time that will be is when I pick up the car, which odds are good is sometime next month. It is truly amazing this is about to happen.

    You may have to wait for yours to see a White Diamond Tri-coat Volt in person, but there are plenty of White Diamond Tri-coat GM cars out there – mostly Cadillac, but many Chevrolets. When my wife and I were first trying to decide which color we could both agree on, we looked at a Malibu. At that time the dealer estimated an $800 cost so we were not surprised at the $995 figure. (BTW we have to wait to next year to order one.)

    Impatiently awaiting my opportunity to order one (and time to go skiing, hey I’m in New Mexico)
    -Michael


  231. 231
    Jackson

    +4

     

    Jackson
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:40 am)

    Eric had to go.

    He’s ‘guest of honor’ today at a special banquet; you know, the one which features Turkey.

    Hopefully, the Turkey is deep-fat-fried.

    /no wonder he was in such a bad mood yesterday!

    ;-)

    .


  232. 232
    scottf200

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:43 am)

    Matthew B:
    Your numbers are a ways off.Coal plants usually run all out at night too.Natural gas and hydro make up the variable part of the generation.If is more like 70% coal 30% nuclear with wind lost in the rounding.    

    This site given above was pretty good about seeing how your state energy is produced.
    http://www.eia.doe.gov/state/

    This PDF doc on page 10 (logically) or page 20 (logically within PDF) broke down by region were electricity is estmated to be generated in 2020.
    http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/559.pdf

    Repost because handy to know how your own state generates electricity when the naysayers talk about the trade off of petro/gas vs “coal”. As a GM employee said the non-petro/gas options are getting cleaner and cleaner.


  233. 233
    EricLG

    -12

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:50 am)

    (click to show comment)


  234. 234
    Eco_Turbo

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    Eco_Turbo
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (10:52 am)

    Dave G:
    I agree.Gallons of electricity is a ridiculous concept, and MPGe has nothing to do with energy independence.    

    I seems if something is “equivalent” to gasoline it would be something “other” than gasoline, and might just be something we have here in the USA.


  235. 235
    scottf200

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    scottf200
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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:00 am)

    JEC: EDIT TO MY COMMENT #112 (the edit feature did not work?)EDIT: I thought Nasaman was using total but he is saying use EACH way, so while my numbers do not jive with actual use, they still convey the same question.So, looks like the Accord is using 1/2 gal each way, for a total of 1 gal, and the Volt would be using 16 cents each way for a total of 32 cents.1/2 gal gas at 25 mpg == 12.5 mi. each way, for a total of 25 miles.So, then how do you travel 25 miles with the Volt and only use32 cents?At 8 cents/Kwhr, that means you only used about 4 Kwhr, which would get you about 14 miles or so.    

    If you use the site you’ll see they only appear to account for gas. It is not valid for the Volt since it doesn’t account for trips on electric only and the city mi/gl is ‘wrong’.

    Cool site to compare gas only cars tho! Hope they updated for the duel fuel car(s) like the Volt!!!! (we all need to email them!! – jim@costtogo.com)

    There is a “How did we get these numbers?” link once you do the “Galcalulation”. It uses estimates for city miles/gl and the miles traveled.

    Heres what is used.

    (Source: Opis)
    We find the cheapest gas prices across your route to give you the most accurate results possible
    Vehicle Data for your Chevrolet, Volt
    (Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov)
    Mileage per Gallon City 230
    Tank Size 6 Gallons
    Fuel Type Premium


  236. 236
    Eco_Turbo

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:01 am)

    EricLG:
    More BS.I came very close to buying a base Prius this week. I am able to buy out of state, so I looked for the best deal, and found a dealer willing to sell the Blizzard Pearl Prius II with mats for $19,700 OUT THE DOOR, all costs and fees inclusive except for state tax. An aftermarket Nav with BT yadda yadda yadda is $800 – 1000, which in total brings a very nicely equipped Prius to about $20,500 – $20,700. Add another ~$300 or so for the trip, and you are looking at $21,000 + tax.    

    Glad you mentioned that, I found out Prius are more expensive than I thought before…

    Prius_Prices.jpg


  237. 237
    Jim Kovarik

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:03 am)

    Bob,

    Hi Bob – I tend to agree with you (and Larry) that despite EPA’s best efforts, the combined MPGe may not really reflect typical consumer driving behavior which is likely to be heavily weighted toward their daily commute. We’re working on a solution at Cost2Drive to make this a much simpler comparison for consumer to make. (Note: The comments on this thread have been incredibly informative so we’ll continue to look to this community for ideas).


  238. 238
    Jackson

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:18 am)

    EricLG,

    Uh oh. Looks like the Prez pardoned him …

    Wasn’t me!

    ;-)

    .


  239. 239
    scottf200

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:24 am)

    Jim Kovarik: Bob,
    We’re working on a solution at Cost2Drive to make this a much simpler comparison for consumer to make.    

    Doh! Pardon my ignorance for not knowing you (Cost2Drive) were on this site.

    Cost2Drive source, http://www.fueleconomy.gov, does not even have the Volt listed so you must have “hardcoded” those numbers. BTW, the tank size is wrong as well (9.3 vs 6).

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

    (Source: Opis)
    We find the cheapest gas prices across your route to give you the most accurate results possible
    Vehicle Data for your Chevrolet, Volt
    (Source: http://www.fueleconomy.gov)
    Mileage per Gallon City 230
    Tank Size 6 Gallons
    Fuel Type Premium


  240. 240
    Mark Z

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:30 am)

    bookdabook: I have combed every possible source for all possible pictures and movies of the white diamond…

    The high intensity lighting shining down on the cars made the colors and white more intense. In person, the white diamond was white as snow. But the photos I took have a greenish cast, not at all what I saw.

    I like the suggestion from MichaelH, visit a GM dealer and see the white diamond on other cars. That’s what my dealer did; he drove us around in a golf cart to check out all the colors on other models before making the final selection. I remember it more as a dreamy, creamy white that day. With the metallic surface, the lighting on the car is key. Change the lighting and/or paint color in your garage if necessary to make the Volt look it’s best!

    PS: I won a Magellan GPS at the Auto Show State Farm booth. Everyone can enter the contest for the Garage Makeover at sfgaragemakeover.com – Happy Thanksgiving!


  241. 241
    Hodginator

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:32 am)

    EricLG:
    More BS.I came very close to buying a base Prius this week. I am able to buy out of state, so I looked for the best deal, and found a dealer willing to sell the Blizzard Pearl Prius II with mats for $19,700 OUT THE DOOR, all costs and fees inclusive except for state tax. An aftermarket Nav with BT yadda yadda yadda is $800 – 1000, which in total brings a very nicely equipped Prius to about $20,500 – $20,700. Add another ~$300 or so for the trip, and you are looking at $21,000 + tax.    

    Here you go with adding aftermarket parts and previous model years again to try to validate your ridiculous point. What I originally posted was a comparable NEW Prius to what the VOLT offers and even at that it doesn’t have all of the features that come with the VOLT. You can’t compare lead and gold and say they are the same because they are metal. Compare feature to feature which with new models and you will find that the VOLT is less expensive than a Prius after the tax credit. And of course the added benefit of the Volt is that it has much better technology (proven by reviews and awards), excellent styling, and allows people to drive gas free for a majority of their commutes. The Prius WAS a good car, but it is now old news and outdated technology. The Volt is the next step to future vehicles.


  242. 242
    Nelson

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:34 am)

    Calculate to your heart’s content. My Volt will use very little gas. My daily commute round trip is less than 20 miles a day. I’m thinking of getting a “NO GAS” plate.

    NPNS!


  243. 243
    JCook

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:35 am)

    Khadgars: Really, then wheres the uproar about the Leaf getting 27 miles LESS THAN what they advertised. The Leaf was advertised to get 100 miles AER yet it’s getting 73.It has to do with how the EPA is ESTIMATING driving conditions then shaves off a little off the top, they do this with other vehicles too.Take a look at Lyle’s and Motor Trends actual driving logs and you’ll see achieving 50 miles or more AER is easy.But I know you won’t because you’ll bash the Volt regardless. Pathetic.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Actually he is getting about 38 AER easily not quite 50. I do agree with you about the Leaf though. Same story for them in my book but I could give a shit about the Nissan Leaf. As for the Volt I do care and care about it’s success and am sick of GM marketing making things worse. The Engineers did a great job with the car, I am not doubting that but it was still overpromised and underdelivered and I personaly think this is a horrible marketing idea. Don’t think I am saying the Volt itself is a dud because it’s not!


  244. 244
    Tagamet

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:35 am)

    nasaman: /BTW, I deliberately stayed off here today because I didn’t care to waste time or show the numerous “knuckle-draggin’, mouth-breathin’” dorks (as I believe Tag said it, Ha Ha!) the dignity of “word fencing” with them.

    Amen.
    HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!! We all have a great deal to be thankful for.

    Having said that:

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  245. 245
    JCook

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:41 am)

    DonC: I’m not trying to pick on you at all, it’s just that you had the most convenient comment to respond to. So this is directed at a whole range of similar comments. My question is this: Nissan has been promising the Leaf would have a 100 mile range for over a year. GM has been promising a 40 mile range. Turns out the EPA rates the range of the Leaf at 73 miles and the range for the Volt at 35 miles. That means GM was off by 12.5% and Nissan was off by 27%. And you think GM has a problem overpromising? If you like, just think of the Volt as delivering 50 miles of all electric range on the LA4 Cycle. IOW don’t you think you’re applying a different standard to GM on the one hand and the Toyotas and the Nissans of the world on the other? Seems to me that GM got more than twice as close as Nissan, and Toyota is a joke with the lame PIP, which is still “under development”. So why not congratulate GM on its obvious success rather than acting like a 5 mile AER is such a big deal. The iPad doesn’t do Flash. So what? It’s still beats hell out of everything else in the category. I’m not a GM guy in but this constant nitpicking over nothing goes beyond all reason.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Never said or acted like I am a Leaf supporter so I don’t give a crap about the
    Leaf only the Volt. I am a Volt supporter and don’t judge my morality on the way others act. “Other people do it so why shouldn’t I” excuse my language but that’s the talk of an f’in five year old.


  246. 246
    Steve

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    Why no 120 Volt charge time on the label? Virtually everyone can probably find a 120 volt outlet to charge from. 240 requires optional wiring of a new outlet for the car.


  247. 247
    Tagamet

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:53 am)

    Nelson: Calculate to your heart’s content.My Volt will use very little gas.My daily commute round trip is less than 20 miles a day.I’m thinking of getting a “NO GAS” plate.NPNS!    

    You’d be a great candidate for the (optional) LED scrolling trunk display:
    Miles driven: (insert large number here)
    Gallons used: (insert very small number here)

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  248. 248
    DonC

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:55 am)

    pius &amp; leaf are turkeys: Brings the trolls out better than bridge collapse

    A priceless comment for the holiday. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


  249. 249
    nasaman

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (11:55 am)

    Hey everybody! There’s a link to a GM-provided simple, concise explanation/description of the Volt EPA label in my post #222 (hung up in moderation until just now —thanks, Lyle!). Go back to #222
    to click the link there —it’s well worth your trouble, trust me.

    /Sorry, but if I try reposting the link it may hang up again —AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!
    .


  250. 250
    nasaman

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:11 pm)

    WAY, WAY OFF TOPIC —BUT WAY WORTH IT! Just got this link from a friend in the UK & I want to share it with everyone here —today’s traditionally the start of the holiday season, and I felt this video was the best 4min57sec I’d spent all day to help do that. Hope you like it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

    AND HAPPIEST HOLIDAY WISHES TO ALL!!!

    (…including anyone who may feel unjustly accused of escaping collapsing bridges!) ;)


  251. 251
    Dave G

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:20 pm)

    scottf200: If you use the site you’ll see they only appear to account for gas. It is not valid for the Volt since it doesn’t account for trips on electric only …

    Gasoline is 66% foreign. Electricity is 100% domestic.

    If the goal is energy independence, electricity is essentially free.

    And if the goal is to reduce carbon emissions, we’ll need to have the economic resources to do that – very difficult when we’re spending $1 billion a day on foreign oil, and borrowing from China to pay for it.

    So either way, the first step is to convert cars from using mostly gasoline to using mostly electricity.


  252. 252
    DonC

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:30 pm)

    JohnL: While I would like to own one, I got the opportunity to by a 2004 prius with extremely low mileage for 11K (the 30K I saved will buy a lot of gas).

    The conceptual problem that people have with the Prius and other parallel hybrids is that they don’t deliver on their promise of substantially cutting energy use. For example, one of the huge flaws in the argument that the Prius creates less CO2 than a Volt is that the analysis omits the fact that the it takes a huge amount of electricity to deliver that gallon of gas to the pump. Nissan claims that it takes 7.5 KWh of electricity to refine a gallon of gas. Then of course you have the electricity you need to pump the gas and store it and pump it and store it and pumpt it and deliver it and pump it and pump it (when the power goes off the entire gas distribution system goes down). While we don’t have any solid figures on how much electricity you’d use — the oil companies haven’t been willing to share this information — it could be another few kWh. This is why the DOE considers a gallon of gas to contain 82 kWh of energy when calculating MPGe, not the the 33.7 kWh used by the EPA in calculating MPGe.

    As a consequence, the Prius needs as much electricity to deliver the gallon of gas to go 50 miles as the Volt needs to actually go 50 miles. If the Prius is using 10.6 kWh + a gallon of gas to go 50 miles, while the Volt just needs the 10.6 kWh not the additional gallon of gas, obviously the Prius is using considerably more energy and creating a lot more CO2 and other emissions and pollutants. Thus the main complaint about parallel hybrids like the Prius is that they are terribly inefficient and only provide an incremental, rather than a substantial, improvement over other ICEs.

    But they are incrementally better and a band-aid may be better than nothing.


  253. 253
    Dave G

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:35 pm)

    DonC: question is this: Nissan has been promising the Leaf would have a 100 mile range for over a year. GM has been promising a 40 mile range.

    GM promised 40 miles AER on both the highway and city EPA cycles:
    http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both-highway-and-city-driving/

    Nissan promised 100 miles electric range on the LA04 cycle, which is known to be more optimistic than the EPA hwy/city cycles.


  254. 254
    JCook

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:43 pm)

    pjkPA: Lyle’s real world driving log:Chevrolet Volt Driving Log On November 11th I became one of the first consumers in the United States to take a Chevrolet Volt home. I am driving and living with it for 90 days as a member of the Volt advisory board.I started a table below showing how I am using the car, both with respect to electricity and gasoline.The car was charged to full overnight each day and during the day wherever possible.My typical commute is 30 miles each way, mostly on the highway between 60 and 70 MPH and I have from 4 to 8 hours to charge the car at 120-v during the day. At night the car is charged at 240-v. There is 10.6 kwh of usable energy in the battery.Date Total Miles EV Miles CS Miles Gallons Total MPG11-10-2010 63.5 52.8 10.7 0.32 200.711-11-2010 59.3 59.3 0 0 infinite11-12-2010 60.4 30.6 29.8 0.72 83.911-13-2010 88.5 52.5 36 0.75 11811-14-2010 79.9 42.2 37.7 1.09 72.911-15-2010 59 59 0 0 infinite11-16-2010 59.3 59.3 0 0 infinite11-17-2010 24.9 24.9 0 0 infinite11-18-2010 73.3 60.6 12.7 0.34 21511-19-2010 60.8 55.3 5.5 0.13 467.711-20-2010 27.9 27.9 0 0 infinite11-21-2010 101.7 42.5 59.2 1.85 55.011-22-2010 59.3 55.6 3.7 .07 847TOTAL 817.8 622.5 195.3 5.27 155 Real world driving… 155 mpg… EPA sticker… useless.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Electricity is a fuel as well. Yes 155 mpg of gasoline is correct. The avg. consumer wants to know the fuel cost per mile, this is what the MPGe does. You didn’t need the table to show this. Lyle is actualy getting between 94 and 37 MPGe when all sources of fuel are included, I’m not going to calculate it for you because I shouldn’t have to but it’s probably close to 75. Still very impressive without lying!!!!!!!!!


  255. 255
    Dave G

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

    DonC: For example, one of the huge flaws in the argument that the Prius creates less CO2 than a Volt is that the analysis omits the fact that the it takes a huge amount of electricity to deliver that gallon of gas to the pump.

    Tesla did a study on “well to wheel” carbon emissions a while back. The Volt is similar to the Tesla Roadster in terms of carbon output in CD mode. So it’s obvious that the Volt produces way less carbon than the Prius.
    carbon_emmissions.jpg


  256. 256
    nasaman

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (1:01 pm)

    Just noticed that Lyle’s added yesterday’s data to his Driving Log of actual numbers, bringing his total miles driven to 940.8 and his average running total mileage to 169 mpg. I’m guessing in another day or so of driving, we’ll be witnesses to a very unusual event for any mass-produced automobile:
    1,000 miles or more on ~6 gallons of gasoline!

    /Let’s see you try that, Plug-in Prius testers!


  257. 257
    bookdabook

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    Mark Z: I like the suggestion from MichaelH, visit a GM dealer and see the white diamond on other cars.

    OK, back from surfing. It was a perfect blue sky day with perfect 3 foot rolling rights and lefts but this is a Volt blog so back to that. Thanks for the suggestion but what’s done is done and I’ll wait to see the color when my car comes in. From your “dreamy, creamy white” description, I have a winner.

    selfishly awaiting my wife’s most excellent feast and Thanksgiving dinner with her and my 2 college kids,

    Have a good one everyone!

    -Book


  258. 258
    GM Volt Fan

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (2:15 pm)

    We should all give thanks today at Thanksgiving dinner for the hard work and determination of the whole Volt development team. They’ve really done a good thing for the whole world. This 93 MPGe number is going to shock a lot of people when they see it on stickers of Volts at Chevy dealerships.

    People who usually drive 1,200 miles a month (40 miles/day for 30 days) in their 22 mpg combustion engine cars and pay around $165/month for gasoline are going to be amazed with the Volt. If you fully recharge every night and you drive 40 miles/day, the Volt will only cost around $50 a month to go those same 1,200 miles.

    That $116 in saved energy costs per month can be factored into the cost of your lease payments every month. It brings your lease payment down to around $234/month. There’s a lot of people that will be able to swing $234/month for a lease payment that also drive 40 miles or less per day and have no problem plugging in every night.

    No doubt about it, if you want to tick off the oil sheiks at OPEC and Big Oil companies, save money every month on your energy bills, stop polluting the world and enjoy the special aspects of electric car driving … the Volt is THE car to get. It’s a no compromise electric car that eliminates the “range anxiety” problem and it will probably get better and better over the next 10 years. Hopefully, a lot less expensive too.

    Once again, I say thank you to Bob Lutz and the whole Chevy Volt development team! Us Volt fans salute you. You got ‘er done !!! Like they said in the space program in the 1960s …. we have lift off. The era of electric cars is here. :)


  259. 259
    EricLG

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  260. 260
    charles brooks

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (3:31 pm)

    Volt MPGe seems to be 60.51 MPGe to 70.04 MPGe in my state using Lyles driving log

    Volt cost comparison for me if I drove Lyles cycle.
    Case 1) EPA range of 35 miles EV range using 12.9 KWh or 368.57 Watts/Mile
    Case 2) Higher range of 45 miles EV range using 12.9 KWh or 286.67 Watts/mile

    EV off peak time in California where I live is 12 cents/KWh
    Average price of premium gas is 3.40 dollars/gallon
    Average price of regular gas is 3.14 dollars/gallon

    So far the drive log shows
    Total_Miles = 940.8 miles
    Total_EV_Miles = 622.5 miles
    Gallons_Gas_Used = 5.57 gallons

    Watts_Per_Mile = 368.57 to 286.67
    Electricity_Cost_per_KWh = 0.12 dollars
    Premium_Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon = 3.40 dollars
    Regular_Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon = 3.14 dollars

    So the true MPGe of the Volt as well as the true cost to drive the Volt over the Lyle driving cycle would be 60.51 MPGe to 70.04 MPGe.

    MPGep (using premium gas) =
    Total_Miles/(((Watts_Per_Mile*Total_EV_Miles*Electricity_Cost_per_KWh/1000)/Premium_Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon) + Gallons_Gas_Used)

    but the comparison needs to be to a car using regular gas

    MPGe = MPGep*(Regular_Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon_Regular/Premium_Gas_Cost_Per_Gallon)


  261. 261
    james huber

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    My Reply from the EPA, I asked they recheck their data for inaccuracies.

    Dear JW Huber,

    Thanks for your comments on the Nissan Leaf numbers. In fact, 33.7 kilowatt-hours is equivalent to 1 gallon of gasoline in terms of energy content, which is the scientific basis of the calculation of MPGe. We know that one gallon of gasoline produces roughly 115,000 Btus of energy, or in electrical terms, 33.7 Kw-hrs.

    We test electric vehicles basically by running them over the City and Highway drive cycles until they can run no more, and by measuring the total recharge energy in watt-hours we determine a watt-hrs per mile value, which can then be used to determine the MPG-equivalent.

    Let’s say the Leaf drove 73 miles and used 20 kilowatt-hours doing so, per your example below. In terms of energy content, 20 kilowatt-hours is equivalent to about 0.6 gallons of gas (20.0/33.7), yielding an MPG-equivalent of about 122 (73 miles / 0.6 gallons).

    This is a good scientific way of equating the two fuels that deals only in scientific facts, allows comparison of electric vehicles to other vehicles on a consistent and level playing field, and is free of unnecessary assumptions.

    I hope this helps clarify the methodology, but please let me know if you have any additional questions.

    Sincerely,
    Rob French
    U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
    Office of Transportation and Air Quality
    2000 Traverwood Drive
    Ann Arbor, MI, 48105


  262. 262
    EricLG

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (4:41 pm)

    deleted


  263. 263
    EricLG

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (4:45 pm)

    Dave G: Tesla did a study on “well to wheel” carbon emissions a while back.

    The table was lost from an earlier post. Second attempt ….

    This table from Tesla relies on the same data and assumptions I believe:

    Two problems: 100% of source fuel is not NG, and real-world driving of a Tesla or a Volt is not 110wh/km. Correct these fanciful assumptions to real world, and the Prius comes out on top
    Two problems: 100% of source fuel is not NG, and real-world driving of a Tesla or a Volt is not 110wh/km. Correct these fanciful assumptions to real world, and the Prius comes out on top.


  264. 264
    kent beuchert

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (5:30 pm)

    How many times do you need to be told that no one ever extracted 33 kwhrs of energy out of any gallon of gasoline that was of any use. Since a 3500 lb car would get 5 miles per kilowatthour
    worth of energy, how come no one ever gets 160 MPG out of the EPA’s magical gallon of gasoline.? Come on, folks, use your brains. I get the feeling that we are surrounded by authoritarians waiting for the govt to tell us what to think.


  265. 265
    EricLG

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (6:24 pm)

    kent beuchert: How many times do you need to be told that no one ever extracted 33 kwhrs of energy out of any gallon of gasoline that was of any use.

    That is very true. It is equally true that no one ever started from 33 kwh of fossil fuel, and ended up with anywhere near 33 kwh of electricity. Even though that is the underlying premise of the “93 MPG(e)” fuel economy.


  266. 266
    koz

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (6:37 pm)

    Dave G: GM promised 40 miles AER on both the highway and city EPA cycles:http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both-highway-and-city-driving/Nissan promised 100 miles electric range on the LA04 cycle, which is known to be more optimistic than the EPA hwy/city cycles.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    …and thus they actually acheived 50 miles on the cycles which becomes 35 on the label after fudge factors if previous EPA comments are applicable


  267. 267
    Greg

     

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    Nov 25th, 2010 (7:34 pm)

    Cool now make an suv and a truck version


  268. 268
    Hmmm

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    Nov 26th, 2010 (7:56 am)

    For the most part I am surprised they made a decent label for this. In fact the only thing I would really want to change is to make the MPGe small font and make the kW-hr/100 mile value the large one. I like that they just straight out told you straight out what the MPG rating is in CS mode (it had seemed like they might go some other weird ways on that).

    I am also very glad to see upper 30′s rather than lower!

    Too bad they couldn’t get the 40 mile EPA range, but 35 isn’t bad and I’m sure many people will get well over 40 by being careful.

    So the sticker has the combined city/hwy, what are their individual breakdowns?


  269. 269
    IQ130

     

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    Nov 26th, 2010 (8:04 pm)

    IQ130:
    You will get this number when driving 64% on electricity for instance a daily drive of 55 miles and charge overnight. I think most Volt drivers want to drive more than 70% on electricity, hopefully even 80% which gives 74 MPG(e) combined.    

    Well actually it is 71 MPG(e) :

    (35M + 8.75M) / ((35M/93MPGe) + (8.75M/37MPG)) = 43.75M / 0.613G(e) = 71MPG(e)


  270. 270
    Mike K

     

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    Nov 27th, 2010 (1:09 am)

    The main question a majority of the general public will have is how much money in gas savings per year they will get with the volt versus buying a similar gas car, say the Chevy Cruz. Based on a typically savings of 6 cents per mile and assuming 15,000 – 20,000 miles driven per year it seems like it would take about 10 years of owning the volt to recover the cost of the higher purchase price compared to the Cruz. For most folks this is going to be too long to brake even. Until they can get the purchase price lower it does not make economic sense to buy the car. Now if you want to make an emotional purchase to satisfy your environmental conscience, go ahead. But most Americans will not do that.


  271. 271
    Dan Petit

     

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    Nov 27th, 2010 (11:26 am)

    Tagamet:
    That’s the way I read it too. Overall, it’s not a bad starting point, given the many issues that the EPA doesn’t normally need to even address. The *really* great part is that we now have some production vehicles that *present* these issues! It’s been a very long road for GM, Lyle, and of course all the faithful here. Assuming that this is just the initial phase, which will lead to much broader acceptance and enthusiasm by the “more normal” folks out there, “We’ve only just begun!”
    I still believe in my heart and in my head that once people drive the Volt, the fun factor will render the sticker info (other than price) largely irrelevant! Husband to wife: “Is it me, or did that car handle exquisitely? The quiet!!” Wife to husband: “Shush, George, I’m looking for my checkbook” “Oh Mr. Salesperson, do you have these in stock in *red*, FOR CHRISTMAS???…. JMO.Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS    

    That’s the way to look at the current energy economy. Now that GM has the EPA formulation finalized, the correct approaches to increase the efficiencies are known. Also keeping in mind that there has been an entire industrial mindset changeover during this journey.

    Naysayers not naysaying, pundits not being uninformed as terribly, and, the public now being entirely engaged and mystified.

    This has really been an incredible (three year) “moment” in American Industrial History.
    World Industrial History is following along.


  272. 272
    Bungoman

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    Nov 27th, 2010 (9:54 pm)

    You all do realize that EricLG is Dagwood, right?

    Hey Daggy, suck it down, slow and hard, and please keep spitting and scratching here. I loves me some Daggy suffering. :-D


  273. 273
    kubel

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    Nov 28th, 2010 (2:19 am)

    Where’s the 230MPG?


  274. 274
    Al W

     

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    Nov 28th, 2010 (6:32 pm)

    Sounds good, but none of the tables I have seen equate battery charge to miles when driving at night. To me this is very important sine I work a night shift. I would also like to see if there is apossible solar power charger available. When it is 26 miles one way to work, this would allow the battery to recharge while at work for people like my wife who work during the day. This could greatly extend the milage. There doesn’t seam to be any information on how long the batteries will last either. My experience has been between 3.5 and 6 years before batteries need to be replaced (electric forklifts). Those batteries run a few thousand to replace, will it be the same for the Volt?


  275. 275
    Mark

     

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    Nov 29th, 2010 (11:00 am)

    The numbers dont add up. Electricity averages .18 cents a kwatt = .11 cents use and .09 delivery to your home. They must have not taken into consideration the delivery of the electric to your home. Not much of a difference than gas.


  276. 276
    Jeff

     

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    Dec 4th, 2010 (1:05 pm)

    I like this label much better than the old prototype. I especially like the lower right hand corner box showing the mpg based on how far you travel between charges. But GM MUST improve its gas only operation mpg (37mpg) in order to compete with the much less expensive Prius and the upcoming 2012 plug-in Prius!!! GM, keep up the great work but don’t sit on your laurels, keep improving that MPG!!


  277. 277
    Brandon

     

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    Dec 12th, 2010 (7:11 pm)

    Jim Young,

    Read up on the Prius…those definitely are not real world driving numbers that you mentioned.