Nov 12

GE to Buy 12,000 Chevy Volts, Cruze Eco Gets 42 MPG Highway Rating, and Opel Ampera Priced

 

[ad#post_ad]A number of important GM related news items recently broke that are worth recognizing.

General Electric Commits to Deploying 25,000 Electric Cars

The first was an announcement from General Electric that the company plans to deploy 25,000 electric cars into its global fleet by 2015.

It will acheive this goal both by converting half of its global fleet of 30,000 cars to electric and by purchasing electric cars from autmotkers.

Its initial purchase will be 12,000 Chevrolet Volts from GM. Cars from other automakers will be added as they become available.

“Electric vehicle technology is real and ready for deployment and we are embracing the transformation with partners like GM and our fleet customers,” said GE Chairman and CEO Jeff Immelt. “By electrifying our own fleet, we will accelerate the adoption curve, drive scale, and move electric vehicles from anticipation to action.

GM CEO Dan Akerson said, “GE’s commitment reflects confidence that electric vehicles are a real-world technology that can reduce both emissions and our dependence on oil. It is also a vote of confidence in the Chevrolet Volt, which we will begin delivering to retail customers by the end of this year. We are pleased that the Volt will play a major role in this program, which will spur innovation and benefit our companies, our customers, and society as a whole.”

Dont worry about GE taking all the Volts away from consumers. “It’s between now and 2015,” says GM spokesperson Rob Peterson. “So the volumes are manageable.”

Cruze Eco Officially Gets 42 MPG Highway

GM also announced that its Chevrolet Cruze Eco model had been given an official fuel economy designation by the EPA. The $18,995 sedan received an impressive 42 MPG on the highway, and 28 MPG city, the highest of any non-hybrid vehilce on the roads.  These impressive numbers are only for the manual transmission.

GM points out this compact car’s fuel economy is better than the Ford Fiesta sub-compact, the Honda Civic, and hybrids including the Ford Fusion, Toyota Camry, and Nissan Altima hybrids.

The Cruze Eco achieves its success though a combination of aerodynamics tweaks similar to the Volt that give it a CD of .298.  It is also mass optimized and uses the efficient 1.4 L turbo Ecotec 4-cylinder engine which can produce up to 138 horsepower.

“Chevrolet Cruze continues to redefine the compact segment, offering class-leading standard safety features, upscale amenities – as well as hybrid-like fuel economy without the price,” said Chuck Russell, vehicle line director. “The Cruze Eco is in a league of its own and will challenge perceptions of the efficiency available in a more affordable non-hybrid.”

Opel Ampera Pricing Released

Finally GM announced pricing on the European version of the Chevrolet Volt known as the Opel Ampera.  The car is identical from an engineering perspective though exterior design as mildly different, and tailored to the Opel brand and the European market.

Unfortunately for them, our European brethren will have to fork up quite a few Euros for the pleasure of Voltec-based driving.  The car will start at 45,900 Euros which translates to almost $59,000 dollars.  There is a 19% value added tax (VAT) in Germany which brings the cost to 36,050 Euros or about $49,000.

Online reservations started on Thursday on opel-ampera.com.

Living with the Volt Update

In my second day of driving the Volt, my love for the car grew stronger.  It’s really an amazing car.   Solid, sleek, satisfying and brimming with technology and real-time connectedness.

I began the day with a charged battery reading 36 miles of EV range.  I reached my first destination 22.7 miles away with 15 miles shown remaining.  My office was another 7.5 miles and I got there with 7 miles EV range remaining.  I was able to charge at 120-v at my office from 9:30AM to 5:00 PM and when I left for home, 33 miles of EV range remained.  I made it home for a total daily drive of 59.3 miles with 4 miles of range left, and never burned any gas.

Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.

—————————————————————————————————————–

DON’T MISS the NJ Volt Meetup with myself and three other CAB members and our Volts. It will be on Sat 11-13 at 11AM here:

Nauna’s Bella Casa
148 Valley Road
Montclair, NJ 07042
www.naunas.com



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This entry was posted on Friday, November 12th, 2010 at 12:01 am and is filed under Cruze, Driving Experience, Efficiency, Financial. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 310


  1. 1
    nasaman

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:07 am)

    Great news, Lyle —on the GE purchase of Volts and on the Cruze Eco EPA rating of 42mpg! On the Ampera pricing (~$59,000 US), not so much —much as I like the Ampera, guess I’ll be buying a Volt Z-spec Ampera look-alike (at least from the rear) instead. Problem solved!

    And you’re getting 384 mpg!!!


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    Kyle

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:18 am)

    Love to hear about a typical day of driving with NO gas burned. Awesome!


  3. 3
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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:22 am)

    “It’s between now and 2015,” says GM spokesperson Rob Peterson. “So the volumes are manageable.”

    Does that mean that GM will be increasing production to cover the GE sales????

    ————————–

    “The car will start at 45,900 Euros which translates to almost $59,000 dollars. There is a 19% value added tax (VAT) in Germany which brings the cost to 36,050 Euros or about $49,000.”

    I am not getting the math here. If there is a 19% VAT in German, why is the price lower???


  4. 4
    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:25 am)

    I sure wish a truckload would show up so I can start delivering a few.


  5. 5
    nasaman

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:27 am)

    Jim I: I am not getting the math here. If there is a 19% VAT in German, why is the price lower???

    Foreigners (like us) don’t pay the VAT, reducing the price of an Ampera significantly —but not enough to cause me to chose it over the Z-spec Volt (‘course, I don’t know the Z-spec price yet). ;)


  6. 6
    Sean

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:43 am)

    Are you joking! 59,000 Dollars for a car similar to the Volt selling in Europe with a 19% sales tax or Vat you gotta be joking me! Am I glad our country’s sale tax on electric cars is only 7.5% instead of 19%. Maybe the auto dealers need to mention that the sales tax is half of what Europe has when it comes to electric cars and then the people will be saying am I glad I don’t have to pay a sales tax as high as them! Agree with me?
    Also congratulations for GE when it comes to buying 25,000 electric vehicles by 2015 maybe will have a better and brighter future when it comes to the future of electric vehicles way to go GE!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:46 am)

    as to the question of volt production levels: my guess is that deliveries to GE are going to ramp up over the 4 year period of the contract. but i would expect production in general to ramp up over that period of time, so i don’t interpret the statement to mean that there will be any significant change in the initial production schedule. instead, i would interpret that statement to mean that they will work the GE order into a long term 4 year production plan.

    as to your pricing question: in the US, prices are quotes *before* sales taxes; in europe, prices are quoted *after* sales tax. so the $49,000 is the price before the 19% sales tax. i assume lyle provided this information so that you can get a better measure for comparing the US price and the european price. i don’t know whether the ampera could be imported into the US, but if you could, you would probably get killed on costs for shipping and import duties.

    Jim I: “It’s between now and 2015,” says GM spokesperson Rob Peterson. “So the volumes are manageable.”Does that mean that GM will be increasing production to cover the GE sales????————————–“The car will start at 45,900 Euros which translates to almost $59,000 dollars.There is a 19% value added tax (VAT) in Germany which brings the cost to 36,050 Euros or about $49,000.”I am not getting the math here.If there is a 19% VAT in German, why is the price lower???    


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    stuey81_in_australia

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:55 am)

    started the day with 36 miles of range again,?

    whats the go


  9. 9
    yoyo

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:58 am)

    way to go with the Cruz, that’s an amazing MPG and a total game changer. beats almost everything else out there besides Jetta TDi and Prius.


  10. 10
    GXT

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:05 am)

    Nice trick.

    Present a subset of the hybrids in one chart… include only the large ones and omit all the ones that get better fuel economy (often significantly better…e.g. >80% better city fuel economy for the Prius, >40% for the Civic and Insight hybrids).

    Then omit all hybrids from the “segment competitors” chart.


  11. 11
    Mark Z

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:06 am)

    stuey81_in_australia: started the day with 36 miles of range again,?whats the go    

    Maybe GM is being a bit conservative or the test drivers that put over 1200 miles on the car before Lyle started using it caused the average range displayed to be affected.

    Think of how a GM ICE car works. The range shown after fill up is much higher when traveling the interstate for long distances compared the range shown after stop and go city driving.


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    GXT

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:23 am)

    stuey81_in_australia: started the day with 36 miles of range again,?whats the go  (Quote)  (Reply)

    That’s about what he actually got both days. What is the issue you are having… too accurate? ;)


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    Texas

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:49 am)

    “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”

    For all those that doubted this technology. Said the battery was too small, that GM would never make it work. That is was stupid and silly.

    Bow your heads…


  14. 14
    Texas

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:51 am)

    Oh, and when your heads are bowed. Please repeat:

    No range anxiety. No range anxiety.


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    Mark Z

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:04 am)

    “Progress Is Our Most Important Product” is a slogan from General Electric.

    Today’s reality: GE to buy 12,000 Volts and Lyle getting 384 mpg; now that’s real progress!


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    DonC

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:29 am)

    Interesting to see Lyle’s and other CAB member’s real world MPG. If you’re getting 350+ MPG, quibbling about 42 MPG or 50 MPG seems quaint.


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    DonC

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:34 am)

    Loboc, kdawg, stuart22: OT, but thanks for the information about the angle of attack when you have a low front end. Makes perfect sense. When I thought about it I realized that this is what my friend does when taking his Porshe up his driveway into the garage. When or if I get a Volt I’ll definitely remember this.


  18. 18
    stuey81_in_australia

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:58 am)

    ill try again and hope i haven’t double posted

    i don’t have an issue with the 36 miles Lyle attained twice in a row after a full over night charge. but i seem to recall Lyle making a post about how the volt will still achieve 40 miles of Ev range after 10 or so years of driving, please don’t take my above post as negative as i love the volt. just curious that’s all.

    stuey


  19. 19
    stuey81_in_australia

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:01 am)

    Vote recorded.
    Thank you.
    Mark Z Says

    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:06 am) .stuey81_in_australia: started the day with 36 miles of range again,?whats the go
    Maybe GM is being a bit conservative or the test drivers that put over 1200 miles on the car before Lyle started using it caused the average range displayed to be affected.

    Think of how a GM ICE car works. The range shown after fill up is much higher when traveling the interstate for long distances compared the range shown after stop and go city driving. Mark Z(Quote) (Reply)

    this was my only possible theory also +1

    should climb with time, (GM could use that in an ad for the volt, ÿour MPG will climb with time!)

    -stuey


  20. 20
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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:50 am)

    (click to show comment)


  21. 21
    Darius

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:56 am)

    Surprise seeing Opel Ampera price. It will be made at the same facility as Chevrolet Volt with minor modification. Why export price is higher than domestic. I never seen that before. What could be explanation?


  22. 22
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:59 am)

    Ok I’m glad Lyle is so enthusiast with the Volt,

    You may imagine (I live in Belgium), I’m less pleased with the Ampera price.

    I made some calculations yesterday, if I compare the Ampera total cost of ownership over 5 five years to my current Opel Corsa (this last one uses 4.8l of diesel/100 km (average consumption after 15.000 kms, or 49 mpg on average over 9,300 miles).
    Even when I subtract 9.000 € of credit on my income tax if I buy the Ampera, taking into account that I drive more or less 30,000 km/year (18,600 miles) and that the price of diesel is today 1,20 €/l or 4.54 € (+/- 6$/gal), the Ampera will cost me more than 8,000 € than the Corsa at the current fuel prices. And even if the price is twice it current value, the Corsa is cheaper. I’ll make more precise simulations on the next days taking into account maintenance costs.

    Opel has to decrease the price by more or less 5,000 € and 10,000 € to make the Ampera competitive.
    Ok the Ampera is a bigger car than the Corsa and is more technologically advanced and increases our independence from imported oil. This also is to be taken into account;

    best regards,

    JC NPNS


  23. 23
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:00 am)

    Darius: Surprise seeing Opel Ampera price. It will be made at the same facility as Chevrolet Volt with minor modification. Why export price is higher than domestic. I never seen that before. What could be explanation?    

    the higher price of fossil fuels in Europe may be the explanation.

    Best regards,

    JC NPNS


  24. 24
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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:37 am)

    duties and shipping?

    in order to come up with a european price you first come up with a CIF value, which is the price of the volt plus insurance and freight (CIF), then you add a duty (which i would guess to be around 10%) to the CIF value. i would imagine this is from where the $49000 figure is coming. then you add the VAT (19%) to the $49000.

    Darius: Surprise seeing Opel Ampera price. It will be made at the same facility as Chevrolet Volt with minor modification. Why export price is higher than domestic. I never seen that before. What could be explanation?    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:41 am)

    the ampera has a “hold” mode that was put in because (as i understand it) in europe there is apparently some tax benefit (in some areas) that you receive if you are operating an electric vehicle. do you know anything about that?

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: Ok I’m glad Lyle is so enthusiast with the Volt,You may imagine (I live in Belgium), I’m less pleased with the Ampera price.I made some calculations yesterday, if I compare the Ampera total cost of ownership over 5 five years to my current Opel Corsa (this last one uses 4.8l of diesel/100 km (average consumption after 15.000 kms, or 49 mpg on average over 9,300 miles).
    Even when I subtract 9.000 € of credit on my income tax if I buy the Ampera, taking into account that I drive more or less 30,000 km/year (18,600 miles) and that the price of diesel is today 1,20 €/l or 4.54 € (+/- 6$/gal), the Ampera will cost me more than 8,000 € than the Corsa at the current fuel prices. And even if the price is twice it current value, the Corsa is cheaper. I’ll make more precise simulations on the next days taking into account maintenance costs.Opel has to decrease the price by more or less 5,000 € and 10,000 € to make the Ampera competitive.
    Ok the Ampera is a bigger car than the Corsa and is more technologically advanced and increases our independence from imported oil. This also is to be taken into account;best regards,JC NPNS    


  26. 26
    Tagamet

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:54 am)

    stuey81_in_australia: started the day with 36 miles of range again,?whats the go    

    If the predicted AER range for that vehicle is based on the first 1200 miles already *on* his machine when he got it, he may be overcoming the data already in its memory. There should be a way to purge that, and start fresh with LYLE’s driving pattern.
    Can’t make the weekend get together because of having just been down that way. I’m sure everyone will have a fantastic time. If there were 4 Volts in the parking lot, I’m guessing that only the four CAB members will actually SEE the inside of the restaurant (lol).

    Have a great time!

    Tagamet
    /off to work :-)


  27. 27
    Tagamet

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:58 am)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: Ok I’m glad Lyle is so enthusiast with the Volt,You may imagine (I live in Belgium), I’m less pleased with the Ampera price.I made some calculations yesterday, if I compare the Ampera total cost of ownership over 5 five years to my current Opel Corsa (this last one uses 4.8l of diesel/100 km (average consumption after 15.000 kms, or 49 mpg on average over 9,300 miles).
    Even when I subtract 9.000 € of credit on my income tax if I buy the Ampera, taking into account that I drive more or less 30,000 km/year (18,600 miles) and that the price of diesel is today 1,20 €/l or 4.54 € (+/- 6$/gal), the Ampera will cost me more than 8,000 € than the Corsa at the current fuel prices. And even if the price is twice it current value, the Corsa is cheaper. I’ll make more precise simulations on the next days taking into account maintenance costs.Opel has to decrease the price by more or less 5,000 € and 10,000 € to make the Ampera competitive.
    Ok the Ampera is a bigger car than the Corsa and is more technologically advanced and increases our independence from imported oil. This also is to be taken into account;best regards,JC NPNS    

    “It’s not all about the money” :-)

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  28. 28
    Lawrence

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:05 am)

    Lyle,

    could it be possible to keep track of the amount of KWH electricity you needed each time you charge the Volt? (especially electricity from the outlet, and not what the Volt effectively used)

    Cheers


  29. 29
    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:16 am)

    Darius: Surprise seeing Opel Ampera price. It will be made at the same facility as Chevrolet Volt with minor modification. Why export price is higher than domestic. I never seen that before. What could be explanation?  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Shipping to Europe from the US. Those ships still use petroleum.

    Take Care,
    TED


  30. 30
    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:21 am)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: Ok I’m glad Lyle is so enthusiast with the Volt,You may imagine (I live in Belgium), I’m less pleased with the Ampera price.I made some calculations yesterday, if I compare the Ampera total cost of ownership over 5 five years to my current Opel Corsa (this last one uses 4.8l of diesel/100 km (average consumption after 15.000 kms, or 49 mpg on average over 9,300 miles).Even when I subtract 9.000 € of credit on my income tax if I buy the Ampera, taking into account that I drive more or less 30,000 km/year (18,600 miles) and that the price of diesel is today 1,20 €/l or 4.54 € (+/- 6$/gal), the Ampera will cost me more than 8,000 € than the Corsa at the current fuel prices. And even if the price is twice it current value, the Corsa is cheaper. I’ll make more precise simulations on the next days taking into account maintenance costs.Opel has to decrease the price by more or less 5,000 € and 10,000 € to make the Ampera competitive.Ok the Ampera is a bigger car than the Corsa and is more technologically advanced and increases our independence from imported oil. This also is to be taken into account;best regards,JC NPNS  (Quote)  (Reply)

    As close as we are to peak oil if you to buy an ampera the price of petroleul based fuel is likely to double or triple during the usable life of that car. Try factoring in that fact into the price of the Ampera. The Ampera and other electrics will be the only ones that can afford to drive before long.

    Take Care,
    TED


  31. 31
    Ted in Fort Myers

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:24 am)

    Morning TAG.

    Take Care,
    TED


  32. 32
    Darpa

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:38 am)

    Thanks for helpful information. A long time ago, I remember a financial advisor stating your car expenses should not exceed 15% of your gross monthly income. In Belgium, are most cars (like the Opel Corsa) considered affordable by the working class?

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: Ok I’m glad Lyle is so enthusiast with the Volt,You may imagine (I live in Belgium), I’m less pleased with the Ampera price.I made some calculations yesterday, if I compare the Ampera total cost of ownership over 5 five years to my current Opel Corsa (this last one uses 4.8l of diesel/100 km (average consumption after 15.000 kms, or 49 mpg on average over 9,300 miles).
    Even when I subtract 9.000 € of credit on my income tax if I buy the Ampera, taking into account that I drive more or less 30,000 km/year (18,600 miles) and that the price of diesel is today 1,20 €/l or 4.54 € (+/- 6$/gal), the Ampera will cost me more than 8,000 € than the Corsa at the current fuel prices. And even if the price is twice it current value, the Corsa is cheaper. I’ll make more precise simulations on the next days taking into account maintenance costs.Opel has to decrease the price by more or less 5,000 € and 10,000 € to make the Ampera competitive.
    Ok the Ampera is a bigger car than the Corsa and is more technologically advanced and increases our independence from imported oil. This also is to be taken into account;best regards,JC NPNS    


  33. 33
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:44 am)

    Hi Ted, Tag, no comment, and all

    Answer to Ted,

    I do not quite agree because, as we have seen that for other primary resources, there is an economic phenomenon called the Hotteling paradox that prevents prices to exponentially increase, for a scientific explanation here is a recent reference to a research paper :
    http://www.tse-fr.eu/images/doc/wp/env/10-149.pdf

    But the explanation is simpler imagine you are left with say 100 barrels of reserves, you sell it at 4 $, you know that for a price of 4.5$, alternative energies will impede any sales of the remaining barrels, so what is better 0 $ or 4 * 100 = 400 $ ? So you keep the price at 4 even if there are upwards pressures on the market.

    This is a simplistic explanation and many other factors may play a role, but this is the idea, and it is a little frightening, because the risk is that we could one day be in a situation of a brutal disruption of oil supplies without the warning of exponential price rises.

    Partial answer to no comment # 24 :

    European countries differ but you are right.
    In Danemark, Norway, the Netherlands you have many privileges (no circulation tax, use of bus and taxi lanes, etc.) if you drive a pure EV.

    Best regards,

    JC NPNS


  34. 34
    JeremyK

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:13 am)

    no comment: i think that there is a real need to come up with a way to derive a meaningful mpg figure for cars like the volt.the 384 mpg figure is not real.my thinking is that mpg should be a measure of how efficiently a ICE is operating to provide driving range.in that light it is not legitimate to ascribe mpg performance when the ICE is not actually operating.i think that the only meaningful way to derive an mpg figure is when the volt is operating in CS mode.
        

    I don’t have a problem with it. Quit literally, it’s miles driven per gallons of gasoline used. If you’re doing mixed driving, using some gasoline…this is perfectly acceptable.

    If you want to look at efficiency for EV mode, then look at Whrs/mile vs. Whrs per charge.

    So, if takes 12 kWhrs to fully charge the battery (measured at your electric meter), your drive cycle averages 250 Whr/mile, and you get a range of 40 miles….
    Then you got 10,000 Whrs of energy out of the 12,000 that you took off the grid, for an efficiency of 83.3%.

    So, the “meaningful” value that you’re looking for is Whrs/mile.
    If the EPA reported the average Whrs/mile for a given drive cycle…then you could calculate the efficiency of the powertrain and compare it directly to other vehicles.
    Weight and aerodynamics would probably have a greater effect on the efficiency than the electric motor, controller, or battery type, however.


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    EricLG

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:22 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:39 am)

    GM should be able to get a deal on shipping to Europe and Asia, since I imagine most of the ships have been going empty in that direction.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:42 am)

    #35 EricLG,

    Aren’t you discounting the value of the plug?


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    tom w

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:44 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:45 am)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: Hi Ted, Tag, no comment, and allAnswer to Ted,I do not quite agree because, as we have seen that for other primary resources, there is an economic phenomenon called the Hotteling paradox that prevents prices to exponentially increase, for a scientific explanation here is a recent reference to a research paper :http://www.tse-fr.eu/images/doc/wp/env/10-149.pdfBut the explanation is simpler imagine you are left with say 100 barrels of reserves, you sell it at 4 $, you know that for a price of 4.5$, alternative energies will impede any sales of the remaining barrels, so what is better 0 $ or 4 * 100 = 400 $ ? So you keep the price at 4 even if there are upwards pressures on the market.This is a simplistic explanation and many other factors may play a role, but this is the idea, and it is a little frightening, because the risk is that we could one day be in a situation of a brutal disruption of oil supplies without the warning of exponential price rises.Partial answer to no comment # 24 :European countries differ but you are right.In Danemark, Norway, the Netherlands you have many privileges (no circulation tax, use of bus and taxi lanes, etc.) if you drive a pure EV.Best regards,JC NPNS  (Quote)  (Reply)

    We saw a glimpse of peak oil in 2008 with gas rising to over $4.00 per gallons until the economy crashed. Supply and demand will increase the price until the world economy crashes and demand will lower and the price will lower. Every time the economy tries to rebound and demand goes up the price will rise and kill the economy again. It will not be a pretty picture as long as our economy is based on petroluem.

    Take Care,
    TED


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    Dave G

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:48 am)

    no comment: i think that there is a real need to come up with a way to derive a meaningful mpg figure for cars like the volt. the 384 mpg figure is not real.

    The 384 MPG figure is real.

    But I would argue that MPG is not a good yardstick for plugin cars. A more meaningful number would be gallons per year. With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt …………………….. 55
    Prius ………………….. 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570


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    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:50 am)

    Eco_Turbo: GM should be able to get a deal on shipping to Europe and Asia, since I imagine most of the ships have been going empty in that direction.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Too funny but sadly true. Especially if we could get a deal on ships returning to the middle east.

    Take Care,
    TED


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:53 am)

    I remember when Lyle recently drove a Volt in MIchigan like 19 miles and was on pace for well over 50 miles on the charge. Is his new average range of 36 miles per charge a combination of colder weather and he’s just intentionally pushing it at 70+mph instead of milking his range by driving 55mph? Thats another reason workplace charging is very important.

    Folks especially with Leaf’s will be hypermiling to work holding up traffic so they have enough electricity to return home if they can’t top off at work on the longer commutes.


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    Roy H

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:56 am)

    GE did NOT say they were going to buy 12k Volts! They said in the next 5 years they would buy 12k EREVs and/or EVs from GM. They are anticipating that as time goes on there will be more models to choose from. So maybe the headline should read “GE to buy 12000 Voltec cars from GM”. 12k/5 years = 2400/year. In 2012 Hamtramck will be able to produce 5k Volts/month. Nobody is going to suffer delays in getting their Volt because of this order.

    This announcement is great news, as it will speed up the adoption of EVs and EREVs.


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    Robert

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:00 am)

    The cruze’s mpg is really impressive, don’t understand why the volt’s engine isn’t turbocharged.
    I like how they are accepting online reservations for the ampere wish they had done that for the volt then maybe I wouldn’t still be waiting for it to go into production.


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    Roy H

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:01 am)

    Yeh, I don’t like the way marketing always cherry picks the competition models and features to compare, but that is standard fare and when reading brochures from companies, you have to take that into account. In this case I think not including the Prius is a serious omission.


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    Eco_Turbo

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:05 am)

    I wonder if we will start seeing speculators trying to buy electricity futures?


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    Eco_Turbo

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:09 am)

    I’ve heard speculation, but never any hard facts on what mpg someone got with a Prius, driving 70 mph over 1000 miles or so.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:11 am)

    So I am thinking that Volts in NC are maybe 2016, 2017, or later.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:11 am)

    EricLG,

    Lyle wrote yesterday that his commute consisted of freeway driving, mostly. At 70 mph (steady state) the Volt and the Prius will each need 17.5 kW of power getting to the ground (27 hp). That’s just basic math based on rolling resistance and aero loads.

    (For the Volt) If you assume a 20% loss (drivetrain/conversion losses) that brings us to about 300 Whrs/mile….thow in a heater, lights, accessories, losses due to acceleration, etc. Very easy to see 315 Whr/mile average. The Prius may be a bit less at that speed due to a more efficient conversion (ICE to wheels) vs (ICE to wheels and/or ICE to wheels and battery).

    The big difference is that those kWhrs are coming from gasoline in the Prius at a cost of about $0.70/kWhr vs. the Volt which is $0.11/kWhr.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:13 am)

    Eco_Turbo: #35 EricLG,Aren’t you discounting the value of the plug?    

    Yeah, he did! I had to do the math for him.


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    JEC

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:13 am)

    Lawrence: Lyle,

    could it be possible to keep track of the amount of KWH electricity you needed each time you charge the Volt? (especially electricity from the outlet, and not what the Volt effectively used)

    Cheers

    That would be a great idea! Lyle you can buy a Killawatt for about $40, but it would need to plug into a std 120V outlet. Since you have a 220V charger, I think?, then this one would not work.

    You could either just use a std 120V at home or use it at work. All you really need to know is how much charge goes in, and how much charge the Volt sees. What is the resolution of the Volts charge indicator? Is it only to the Kw, or tenths, or hopefully hunderdths!

    That would allow us to know what the real Kw-hr usage is.


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    Dave4664

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:14 am)

    no comment: i think that there is a real need to come up with a way to derive a meaningful mpg figure for cars like the volt.the 384 mpg figure is not real.my thinking is that mpg should be a measure of how efficiently a ICE is operating to provide driving range.in that light it is not legitimate to ascribe mpg performance when the ICE is not actually operating.i think that the only meaningful way to derive an mpg figure is when the volt is operating in CS mode.
        

    It IS what it IS…..

    We all understand that we will have to purchase ( or make our own ) kilowatt hours of electricity to charge our Volts. The cost per mile running on electricity is less than the equivalent mileage using gasoline. We will be able to get accurate total costs per mile very soon now as information comes in from Lyle and the other Volt drivers. But that issue is not my primary concern….as has been said before….”it’s not always about the money”…..to me it’s all about ending our dependence on oil!

    GO VOLT!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:14 am)

    Ted in Fort Myers:
    We saw a glimpse of peak oil in 2008 with gas rising to over $4.00 per gallons until the economy crashed.Supply and demand will increase the price until the world economy crashes and demand will lower and the price will lower.Every time the economy tries to rebound and demand goes up the price will rise and kill the economy again.It will not be a pretty picture as long as our economy is based on petroluem.Take Care,
    TED    

    Petroleum is not the only issue. The economy, is based on many things, mostly production and consumption. We have a lot of skilled workers and that is the basis of a strong economy, however we have an unsustainable money system that is controlled by the banks where all money is loaned into existence. Since this is true, all money has to be paid back with interest. By definition money owed will always be more than money made. Governments MUST take back control of their own money an print their own new money instead of borrowing it. It is just plain stupid to pay interest to banks for your own money. If all new money was only available from the government, and no interest was paid, then we would have a sustainable money system. This also means that banks could not make private loans for more than the money they actually have.

    Getting back to petroleum, the best substitute for low cost pollution free energy is the LFTR.
    Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors were invented in the 1960s at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. They ran one for almost 5 years. LFTRs use cheap thorium, are inherently safe, do not produce long term radio-active waste and were abandoned because they are not suitable for making bombs. See:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk
    and
    http://energyfromthorium.com/
    Although the principles are proven, there is still some research required for the best materials to have long 50 year plus life. This should be our highest priority to solve our energy and pollution problems.

    Join thE REVolution!


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    Schmeltz

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:20 am)

    Lyle said: “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG”

    When I saw “384 MPG”, I almost spit my coffee out! That’s awesome! The key for maximizing efficiency is to charge the car while at work. Otherwise, you may get just a measley 100 mpg average–LOL! :)

    This car is AMAZING!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:21 am)

    Robert: The cruze’s mpg is really impressive, don’t understand why the volt’s engine isn’t turbocharged.
    I like how they are accepting online reservations for the ampere wish they had done that for the volt then maybe I wouldn’t still be waiting for it to go into production.    

    Turbo charging the 1.4L would only increase the efficiency “IF” more power was needed. A turbo 1.4L making 80 hp might actually be slightly less efficient than the normally aspirated version in the Volt…because the turbo wouldn’t actually be contributing much/any boost at those loads. When a turbo is not “spooled”, it’s creating back pressure and is actually somewhat less efficient.

    An optimized generator for the Volt would either be a ~1.0L turbo diesel, or a ~1.0L turbo ICE with direct injection. A turbo 1.4L for the Volt would be too big….unless we’re talking about a Volt SS, which would probably require upgraded MGA/MGBs.


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    nasaman

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:24 am)

    OT: I’ve (borrowed) Chelsea Sexton’s snapshot of her beautiful CAB car (& son) in an upscale part of LA with spectacular views of the Pacific. It just struck me that all you CAB folks with those Michigan plates might get off with only a warning from your local ‘smokies’ if you try for some 45-85 passing times or even top-speed dashes on handy freeways (e.g., the 105 or 405, Chelsea; the GS Pkwy or I-87, Lyle). Disclaimer: If you guys get arrested I will NOT agree to be an accessory to your crime! ;)

    73568_493673844047_518954047_7128565_182943_n.jpg


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:26 am)

    Did anyone notice that the last article shows all the end posts as negatives! Did some troll find a new trick?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:29 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:33 am)

    GXT: Nice trick.Present a subset of the hybrids in one chart… include only the large ones and omit all the ones that get better fuel economy (often significantly better…e.g. >80% better city fuel economy for the Prius, >40% for the Civic and Insight hybrids).Then omit all hybrids from the “segment competitors” chart.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Glass houses dude. You did the same exact thing in your post, just in reverse. Nobody likes BS marketing tricks but every company does them. What are the combined cycle numbers? Not nearly as bad as the city numbers that you conveniently cherry picked. I guess using that distorted style of persuasion is very appealing.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:36 am)

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    Ted in Fort Myers

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:39 am)

    Eco_Turbo: I’ve heard speculation, but never any hard facts on what mpg someone got with a Prius, driving 70 mph over 1000 miles or so.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    I rented one and got 45 MPG on the highway in Arizona and Nevada.

    Take Care,
    TED


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:45 am)

    #55 JeremyK, said:

    Turbo charging the 1.4L would only increase the efficiency “IF” more power was needed.

    And who says it isn’t, now that we know the ICE can contribute torque to driving the wheels? 8-)


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    john1701a

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:53 am)

    Dave G: Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt …………………….. 55
    Prius ………………….. 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570

    Speaking of omissions… where’s the PHV model?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:53 am)

    58 EricLG,

    I’m just imagining there’s at least one person who drove a Prius from Chicago to LA or something like that, at 70 mph, and could tell us how much gas it took.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:55 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:11 am)

    EricLG:
    I am under the impression that turbo is less efficient than a larger engine at high loads, but is used to downsize the ICE for the common low power demand drivetime. And of course the manufacturers are responding (read: gaming) the national test cycles that use low acceleration routines. It lets them sell a high kw vehicle with relatively high fuel economy labels.Parenthetically, this gaming is why turbo owners do not get close to EPA: their real-wprld is turbo use, which is not tested.    

    A turbo increases efficiency by decreasing pumping losses. So, a turbo is more efficient at its rated hp than a normally aspirated, larger engine would be. It uses less gas when at lower power because it’s operating at a more open throttle position than a larger, normally aspirated engine…which also decreases pumping losses. Additionally, there are less frictional losses in a 4 cyl. engine vs. a 6 cyl or 8 cyl engine.

    There’s no real EPA trickery here. There are some downsides to drivability, such as loss of low end torque (because you have a smaller engine) and turbo lag (lack of immediate power increase/response during sudden acceleration from a low rpm). Some of this has been cured by using smaller turbos that start producing boost at much lower rpm, and using variable pitch technology that can optimize performance over a larger rpm range.

    An engine optimized for a turbo, producing X hp, will always be more efficient than a larger, normally aspirated engine, producing the same hp.


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    Estero

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    From the article, “GE’s initial purchase will be 12,000 Chevrolet Volts from GM”.

    This is fantastic! Many of us had full confidence that things like this would happen. It was just a matter of time.

    12,000 Volts is a significant % of the total Volt production volume. I hope this will propel GM to increase its production volume so that GE’s purchase will not decrease the number of Volts available for to the public.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:36 am)

    no comment: i think that there is a real need to come up with a way to derive a meaningful mpg figure for cars like the volt. the 384 mpg figure is not real. my thinking is that mpg should be a measure of how efficiently a ICE is operating to provide driving range. in that light it is not legitimate to ascribe mpg performance when the ICE is not actually operating. i think that the only meaningful way to derive an mpg figure is when the volt is operating in CS mode.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Sorry, but I disagree. The Volt is about reducing dependence on imported oil. Thus the 384 MPG figure is extremely relevant. The electricity consumed is a domestically produced alternative fuel, and is the only alternative that is economically viable at the moment (i.e., it‘s the only one that can truly compete with oil on an equal footing). Thus a higher percent of $ spent on that fuel (electricity) stays in the United States economy, vice leaking out directly by spending $ on imported oil. That helps GDP (by increasing it) while also serving to reduce the deficit.


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    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

     

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:40 am)

    Ted in Fort Myers,

    I agree TED,

    Be well,

    JC


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    Starcast

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:44 am)

    tom w: Folks especially with Leaf’s will be hypermiling to work holding up traffic so they have enough electricity to return home if they can’t top off at work on the longer commutes

    And getting their A** run over.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:55 am)

    EricLG:
    I am not sure how you came up with 70 cents/kwh for the Prius. Overall about 1/3rd of Prius fuel is converted to mechanical work, so starting from 35 kwh/gallon and $2.75/gallon we end up with
    275/(35/3)=23.5 cents/kwh.Prius uses significantly less energy/distance at 70 mph than the Volt. 50 mpg at 70 mph is about right, which gives 233 wh/mile at the driveshaft, or about 225 at the wheels.Here is another way to cross-check the numbers:
    Prius travels 50 miles at 70 mph, using 35 kwh of fuel from plant to wheel;
    Volt travels 40 miles with 12 kwh from the plug. Average powerplant efficiency in the US is 33%, so 36 kwh in total from plant to wheels.(36/35)(50/40) = 28.5% more energy consumption/distance in the Volt compared to the Prius.    

    Re kWhr/mile, you’re right on your math…I divided by $3/gallon one too many times, however $2.75/gallon is a bit low…but other than that, I agree with that set of numbers.

    But when did we start start doing plant to wheels calculations? When you bring the plant into it, you start bringing in variables that have little to do with the vehicle engineering and design, not to mention that there are many sources for electricity. Not fair to make a worst case efficiency estimate for electricity production based on coal as feedstock.

    I think what people are interested in is what is the cost/mile and what is the efficiency of converting on-board energy to distance traveled.

    Prius
    35 kWhr/50 miles = 0.7 kWhr/mile
    Prius: 50 mpg at $3/gallon = $0.06/mile

    The Volt using electricity generated from coal
    12 kWh to charge / 0.33 = 36 kWhr/40 miles = 0.909 kWhr/mile
    But we’re only paying for 12 kWhrs, not 36 kWhr, so 12 kWhr X $0.11/kWhr = $0.03/mile

    The only reason the kWh/mile rating for the Volt is worse than the Prius is that you used coal as a feedstock. If you were to assume a modern, combined cycle gas turbine plant the numbers come out in favor of the Volt at 0.5 kWh/mile.

    We could play with the numbers all day…it all depends on the assumptions made.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    EricLG: Lyle is getting about 38 miles from 12 kwh, meaning he is consuming 315 wh/mile

    Have people already settled on this unit wh/mile? It seems to me, in keeping with the miles/fuel type precedent already set for octane and diesel that it should be miles/kWh. So you can compare who gets the most miles for a given unit of energy. With the wh/mile unit you want to see the number getting smaller while with miles/kWh the number needs to get bigger to be better and that format is what we are used to.

    It could be either miles/kWh or miles/Wh. We are already being schooled that the e-motor takes a 12 kWh charge when fully depleted since a reserve 4 kWh is not used (I thought the numbers were a little different but I’ll go with this). So another way of looking at Lyles Volt e-motor efficiency is 38 miles/12 kWh or 3.2 miles/kWh.

    Can anyone now tell that I am a scientist by training. I definitely do not like mpg-equivalent. If we’re going to go electric, let’s get it right and use the correct units. Someone tell me if this has already been settled.

    What is the miles/kWh (or whatever unit people are using) comparison to the Leaf and Tesla?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:03 am)

    Robert: Rober

    A car like the Eco Cruze (with a turbo charger) is great on gas under normal driving, but will use a lot more gas if you push it hard, as we all know. But, if the Cruze did not have a turbo, it would be under powered with it’s only 1.4L engine. With the turbo, it’s like having two engine in one. One for normal driving, and one for hard (power) driving. What I’m trying to do is answer a question as to why GM did not use a turbo on the Volt.

    Getting to the Volt, the engine is sized just right (w/o the use of a turbo). With a turbo, this engine would have produced too much power and consumed more gas. GM could have designed a smaller engine, but they did not have enough time or money. By using the Cruze’s engine and modifying it, made it a very cost effective. They took the Cruze engine and tuned it’s sweet-spot to the RPM operating range, needed to turn the generator.

    GM will probably use a turbo for the Gen 2 Volt engine. They want to reduce the physical size of the engine. Time will tell.

    Have a good day!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:03 am)

    Speaking of GE. There is a neat ad in this month’s Scientific American. On the left side of the left page is a picture of a Nissan Leaf and looks like a normal ad from Nissan. On the right side of the opposite page is an ad from GE showing their new charging station. The cord of the charger in the GE add runs off the ad, across the bottom of both pages and plugs into the Nissan Leaf.

    That is the sort of thing you get when two companies use the same ad agency and have complementary products. What I like about this ad is that the GE ad is not just showing you something that may be useful in the future. It is showing you that there is a use for it today. The Leaf ad is showing you that not only can you plug in at home but soon GE is going to have the cool chargers all over the place so you don’t have to worry about range.

    I’m a bit surprised that GE announced that they were going with Volts for their fleet purchase since they have a joint ad campaign with Nissan. The GE fleet manager probably knows what we know that the Volt is a more practical car.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:05 am)

    12,000 Volts is a good start, but that may be just a drop in the bucket. GSA (General Services Administration — the single buying agent for the US Government) has a mandate to replace it’s 600,000 vehicle fleet with more fuel efficient vehicles. A good percentage of those will be Volts.

    http://www.hybridcars.com/news/greening-massive-government-vehicle-fleet-28337.html


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    crew

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:09 am)

    I am honestly impressed with the Cruze mpg. I never really believed that GM could actually build a car that could best the venerable Honda Civic.
    That’s a feat that GM tried using a noisy Saturn, a three cylinder Suzuki, a really cheap Cobalt and a Corolla clone. Nothing has achieved the overall competence that the Cruze offers.
    The Cruze becomes a viable choice to keep an inexpensive car in the driveway with a BEV.

    Or you can just buy a Volt.

    If you don’t have the money for a Volt, get a Leaf or a Prius or a Cruze. No shame in owning any of these cars at all. Whatever baggage you carry in your opinions may motivate you to sign on the dotted line differently, but GM has the beginnings of a line of cars that hold their own in any arena in any country. I haven’t been able to say that in much of my recollection.

    After all is said and done and above any other vehicle, I’m working my budget towards a Volt and apologize for nothing!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:10 am)

    I think that the big debate of CS mode MPG vs composite MPG is that we are trying to measure two completely different things. In one case we are trying to measure the over all energy efficiency of the car. Ie. how much power of any kind does it take to move the car down the road. Since the ICE is primarily just running a generator the CS only MPG is a pretty good indicator of that.
    In the other case, we are trying to use as little petroleum as possible. The MPG for the car in every driving mode is a good model for that case. We only care about how much gas we are using and not how much electricity.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:19 am)

    Lyle,
    I have one question I haven’t seen a good answer to yet, how tall are you and how much headroom do you have in the drivers seat?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:20 am)

    The 40 mile EV only range was chosen by GM because 80% of American drive less than that amount in a single day. The chart that I saw recently, (someone posted a link awhile back) showed that 60% of American drive less than 20 miles a day. GM decided, rightly I think, that 60% was too low a number so they went with the 40 mile range.

    The same chart showed that you would have to almost double the EV range to get up to the 90% of typical level. For a pure electric vehicle, the 100 mile range is the right number because you want to be useful at least 90% of the time.

    Someone said earlier in this thread that workplace charging is necessary to avoid using gas and that seems to be true for Lyle but Lyle has a longer commute than 80% of most people. For 80% of drivers, workplace recharging won’t be necessary.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:25 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:25 am)

    Re: the GE purchase–the news came out a few days ago. Here’s the complete article from The Day-twa News–it says the vehicles WILL be Volts, and gives the number per year:

    The first bulk order for the Chevrolet Volt is in.

    The buyer: energy giant General Electric.

    GE, which makes charging stations and other equipment for plug-in cars, will convert half its 30,000-vehicle global fleet to electrics, starting with 12,000 Volts. In partnership with its fleet customers, GE will have 25,000 electric cars on the road by 2015.

    GE will add models from manufacturers other than GM as automakers expand their lineups of battery-powered cars.

    Along with the $41,000 Volt, an extended-range, plug-in car with a back-up gasoline engine, the all-electric Nissan Leaf goes on sale this year, priced at about $33,000.

    The Volt order is a big win for GM and could help convince hesitant buyers to give the car a try.

    “This action will likely serve as the catalyst for other fleets,” said Oliver Hazimeh, head of the global e-Mobility practice at PRTM, a global consulting firm in Southfield. Bulk fleet orders like GE’s also go a long way toward helping to reduce battery costs by scaling up production, he said.

    The expense of making high-tech batteries remains a hurdle for automakers, who must price electric cars higher than similar conventional vehicles.

    The first Chevy Volts start rolling off the line at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck plant this month. The automaker plans to sell 10,000 Volts in the first year, eventually expanding production to 45,000 vehicles in 2012.

    GE will receive its first 1,000 Volts in mid- to late 2011, with 2,000 to 3,000 more arriving each year until 2015, said Tom Wilkinson, a GM spokesman.

    The automaker declined to say how much GE is paying.

    Like other electric car buyers, GE is eligible for up to $7,500 in federal tax credits, per vehicle, to help defray the cost. The Volt and Leaf qualify for the tax credit.

    The Volt can travel 25 to 50 miles on battery power before a gasoline engine kicks in to recharge the battery, for a total range of about 310 miles.

    The Leaf runs on battery power alone and can travel about 100 miles on a single charge.

    GE’s order could help offset GM’s investment in electric technologies, said Michelle Krebs, a senior analyst with Edmunds.com. The automaker has said it spent more than $1 billion developing the Volt.

    “Automakers are unlikely to make money on new technologies out of the starting gate,” Krebs said. “But a big purchase like this helps accelerate their return on investment.”


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:25 am)

    Here’s a picture of the window sticker of chevy volt – but I can’t quite make it out…

    http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/11/peek-inside-the-chevrolet-volt-factory/?pid=293


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:29 am)

    Starcast:
    And getting their A** run over.    

    Not to mention the ones who don’t make it to the side of the road, when the inevitable happens.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:33 am)

    JeremyK: But when did we start start doing plant to wheels calculations?

    This particular troll brings up any cost that (in his mind only) negates the value of the Volt. He’s been hammering in price because that’s the only thing he has left.

    There are a lot of professional people, just like our favorite neurosurgeon, who are choosing to buy a Volt because it is: Newer/Better Technology, Better Gas Mileage, Better Equipped, More Comfortable, Better Handling/Performance, Better Styling, Unique and (for now) Exclusive to own.

    Very few here give a rats about all of his numbers and costs. The Volt is a better car. It’s real. It’s here. And that pathetic loser couldn’t stop it. He needs to go back to his Japanese car-maker employer and collect his final troll paycheck and give up.

    I want an American-made Volt and so do my VERY happy customers.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:42 am)

    #74 Marharguitar said:

    I’m a bit surprised that GE announced that they were going with Volts for their fleet purchase

    Maybe they wanted to avoid this: “We can’t make it to the meeting because we had to pick up the revised sample, now Siemens will probably get the order”


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:53 am)

    Guess what car would be second on the fuel efficiency list if it had been included? The Chevy Cobalt XFE at 37 mpg highway. Bottom line is that GM trounces the competition in small car efficiency.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:54 am)

    T 1: “This action will likely serve as the catalyst for other fleets,” said Oliver Hazimeh, head of the global e-Mobility practice at PRTM, a global consulting firm in Southfield.

    Awesome. CV, what kind of commish would you get on, say, a 20k unit sale to IBM or 10K to Apple? Or 2k to the State of Cali?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:03 am)

    Lyle:

    Thanks for the great posts over the last few years. My suggestion is to try a commute day without charging at work to see how the mileage is. Most of us will not be able to charge at work.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:08 am)

    Hey CorvetteGuy,
    Now that the Volt is real, so to speak(light at the end of the tunnel and all that stuff), it would be interesting to me anyway to hear what kind of feedback you are getting from your customers and potential customers.

    Are more people calling up asking about the car? If so, what do they say? Are they putting a name on your waiting list?

    As for your waiting list, any calls from these people who are ready to fork over cold, hard cash? Anxious? Impatient?

    Anything you’d care to share with us?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:08 am)

    Regarding GE’s generous intentions…. I would hope only USA-built electrics are what they purchase. Given the state of our economy and trade deficit, this would be a positive gesture of support for American ingenuity and workers. Plus it would be a clear incentive for foreign manufacturers to build their product here. Nissan plans to build the LEAF in Tennessee; maybe they’ll speed up their plans….. Toyota? They’ve never built one Prius on American soil in spite of America being the #1 Prius market for them.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:14 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:15 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:15 am)

    bookdabook: Have people already settled on this unit wh/mile?

    It’s pretty standard. You’re probably right that miles per kWh might be better — that’s the old miles per gallon versus gallons per mile difference.

    The one place wh/mile works well is with range. If you know the capacity of your battery, it’s simple enough to divide by wh/mile and get the range. It’s also equally good when looking at how efficient a car is at various speeds. These graphs from Tesla are good examples:

    http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/roadster-efficiency-and-range


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:16 am)

    no comment: i think that there is a real need to come up with a way to derive a meaningful mpg figure for cars like the volt.the 384 mpg figure is not real.my thinking is that mpg should be a measure of how efficiently a ICE is operating to provide driving range.in that light it is not legitimate to ascribe mpg performance when the ICE is not actually operating.i think that the only meaningful way to derive an mpg figure is when the volt is operating in CS mode.
        

    I have to disagree with this argument. For one thing, how could this be more real? It is a real car that you can get in and drive across the country in. Next, this is a real person with a real job. These are very common driving conditions for a large part of the world’s population.

    Unlike a BEV (pure EV), you don’t have to worry about having to find a charging station every 100 km and then wait for 8 hours to charge up (with the exception of the Better Place model – which is also a great idea).

    Next, I would like to point out that the real issue is getting off of petroleum use. This is home-grown electricity and can come in the form of NG, hydro, etc. Also, the more plug-ins you have, the more renewables you can put on the grid. They are perfect for each other. Win-win.

    So, sir, I have to say this is as “real” as it gets.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:17 am)

    Cruze Eco EPA rating of 42mpg – that good news. i believe if they stretch a bit more using DI and DCT, i am sure it was not big task to hit 45 for automatic.

    A BAS+ should be even able to take it to 50+.

    I have a question on same engine : The same engine is used Volt which gives CS millage of around 35. Why an optimized version for specific range and premium gas gives low mileage than this ?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:21 am)

    Dave G:
    The 384 MPG figure is real.But I would argue that MPG is not a good yardstick for plugin cars.A more meaningful number would be gallons per year. With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt …………………….. 55
    Prius ………………….. 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570    

    I submit the 384 MPG number is not real and very misleading.

    We all should remember the reason the number is so high is because of the charging between the drives.
    I could make that number 1000 mpg by driving short distances within the electric mode to make sure the the battery always has enough charge to keep the ICE off except for maintenance.

    Your comments about gallons per year make a lot more sense. Drive normally and let the gas used per year be the better may to determine the real efficiency of each car. When making the gallons per year part of the total cost of ownership one one then has the real true cost and value of each car.

    If one wants to drive a car for other reasons, including the Volt, that is another issue (good and bad).

    Using “artificial” numbers to hype the car is not the better way to build interest. Many potential buyers will notice and and point it out as they are doing now here.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:23 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:25 am)

    Jon: Lyle,
    I have one question I haven’t seen a good answer to yet, how tall are you and how much headroom do you have in the drivers seat?    

    I am 5’8″ and have MASSIVE headroom. GM says they designed the car to fit 95th percentile drivers comfortable (that’s 6’5″)


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:27 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:29 am)

    bt: Anything you’d care to share with us?

    It’s not “the light at the end of the tunnel”, it is more like “the light before a bright sunrise”. I’m talking to at least 2 people a week wanting detailed information on the Volt, including pricing info. We have 11 on order. There were 12 but 1 dropped out because of price. (I made note of this to our GM Regional guy when he was here last month.) I have several customers on ‘hold’ because we are still waiting to see how much our allocation will go up. I’ve told all of my customers that it might be a long wait, and I have also referred them to other Chevy dealers (just in case) but they tell me others in my area are asking much more for the car, or will not give out any final price at all. I am also getting at least 1 call per week from customers in “non-launch-area” states.

    The TV ads have only “introduced” a new electric car from Chevrolet. No ‘meat and potatoes’ ads yet, so I’m waiting to measure the demand until after the first of next month when I HOPE THEY START THE REAL VOLT AD CAMPAIGN!!!!

    My customers who have already ordered are very excited, and I am hoping we get our demo car soon.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:33 am)

    CG,
    Copy that and thanks for update.

    You are a true gem among jewels on this website(did I avoid insulting anyone?) and the insight(no pun intended) you provide from the dealership end is illuminating, whether it comes from the end of the tunnel, or as you say from the morning sun.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:35 am)

    neutron: Dave G:
    The 384 MPG figure is real.But I would argue that MPG is not a good yardstick for plugin cars.A more meaningful number would be gallons per year. With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
    Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
    Volt …………………….. 55
    Prius ………………….. 228
    30 MPG car ………… 380
    20 MPG car ………… 570

    I submit the 384 MPG number is not real and very misleading.

    We all should remember the reason the number is so high is because of the charging between the drives.
    I could make that number 1000 mpg by driving short distances within the electric mode to make sure the the battery always has enough charge to keep the ICE off except for maintenance.

    Your comments about gallons per year make a lot more sense. Drive normally and let the gas used per year be the better may to determine the real efficiency of each car. When making the gallons per year part of the total cost of ownership one one then has the real true cost and value of each car.

    If one wants to drive a car for other reasons, including the Volt, that is another issue (good and bad).

    Using “artificial” numbers to hype the car is not the better way to build interest. Many potential buyers will notice and and point it out as they are doing now here.

    Ok, but with our first real world data point, Lyle would be using approximately 1/2 gal/day if he did not charge at work.

    “I began the day with a charged battery reading 36 miles of EV range. I reached my first destination 22.7 miles away with 15 miles shown remaining. My office was another 7.5 miles and I got there with 7 miles EV range remaining. I was able to charge at 120-v at my office from 9:30AM to 5:00 PM and when I left for home, 33 miles of EV range remained. I made it home for a total daily drive of 59.3 miles with 4 miles of range left, and never burned any gas.”

    So, if he did not charge at work he would of needed to run the range extender for about 20 miles. which at 40 mpg, means about 1/2 gallon of gas.

    1/2 gal. X 250 days = 125 gallons/year.

    Opportunity charging can significantly reduce your gas usage, based on your situation. I think Lyles commute is fairly typical.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:36 am)

    neutron: I submit the 384 MPG number is not real and very misleading.

    There are dozens of regulars here who speak of their daily car usage. Several will use under 15 gallons of gasoline in their Volt per year. 15000 miles on 15 gallons. In January we will begin to see real world numbers from California drivers. Clerks at the AM/PM Arco will be wondering where the stack of $20′s disappeared to. Goodbye to gasoline fumes and to fuel pump hole shooters.

    NPNS

    BPGAS.jpg?t=1289579738


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    JeremyK: But when did we start start doing plant to wheels calculations?

    While using well to wheel calculations is screwy at the consumer level, the EPA does use them for CAFE purposes. What our friend Eric has conveniently left out — he of the “use only those numbers that make your point” tribe — is that, when looking at a vehicle being powered by electricity, after all the calculations are finished, a gallon of gasoline equivalent contains 82 kWh of energy (actually 82,049 Wh/gal but why be picky). For example, if the Volt goes 100 miles using 82 kWh of energy, it is getting 100 MPGe. Another example would be that if the Volt goes 40 miles using 10 kWh, or 250 wh/mile, then, given that a gallon of gas contains 82 kWh of energy, the Volt has gotten an MPGe of 328. (This is for CD Mode not CS Mode).

    If you plug the REAL numbers used by the EPA into Eric’s comparisons the Prius looks like a POS when compared to the Volt. Which of course is why he won’t use those numbers. But when comparing the Volt and the Prius go ahead and use 82 kWh as the number for the energy in a gallon of gas equivalent. What you’ll find is that using the official EPA well to wheels calculations the Volt has an MPGe 2x or 3x greater than the Prius.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:39 am)

    CorvetteGuy: I have several customers on ‘hold’ because we are still waiting to see how much our allocation will go up.

    I forgot to ad that I am hoping to get a significant number of City and County orders for fleet purchases. I have a number of appointments with government officials in December who will decide how many they will order for their departments. Not 12,000 like GE… but I hope to get at least 12 from them. That would be cool.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:41 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:44 am)

    Guys – I understand downrating trolls that are inciting hate, discontent, etc., but these 3 comments were civil, thought out, and non-inciteful. Why do some people do that? (downrate useful posts, even if it isn’t what you want to hear)

    The ones I’m speaking of are:
    #20 No Comment (ok, he’s usually a troll, but there was nothing specifically trollish about this one)
    #35 EricLG
    #38 TomW

    Seems we need to keep our blinders OFF and accept other opinions…

    Mike.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:44 am)

    CorvetteGuy: No ‘meat and potatoes’ ads yet, so I’m waiting to measure the demand until after the first of next month when I HOPE THEY START THE REAL VOLT AD CAMPAIGN!!!!

    Very nice 8-page insert in the recent edition of Automobile mag. It leads off with, “High Voltage. Chevy’s Volt is the first electric car with coast-to-coast operating range.” “Gas is Optional” and “Beyond Hybrids” are some of the other page headings.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:45 am)

    CorvetteGuy:
    This particular troll brings up any cost that (in his mind only) negates the value of the Volt. He’s been hammering in price because that’s the only thing he has left.
    There are a lot of professional people, just like our favorite neurosurgeon, who are choosing to buy a Volt because it is: Newer/Better Technology, Better Gas Mileage, Better Equipped, More Comfortable, Better Handling/Performance, Better Styling, Unique and (for now) Exclusive to own.Very few here give a rats about all of his numbers and costs. The Volt is a better car. It’s real. It’s here. And that pathetic loser couldn’t stop it. He needs to go back to his Japanese car-maker employer and collect his final troll paycheck and give up.
    I want an American-made Volt and so do my VERY happy customers.    

    I don’t mind Eric’s “contributions” as long as they are technical and are at least somewhat based in reality. However, those comments are few and far between.

    His math is correct, based on his assumptions, but as I showed; as soon as you change the feedstock from coal…i.e. nuclear, gas turbine, hydroelectric, etc….the numbers fall in the Volts favor.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    neutron: I submit the 384 MPG number is not real and very misleading.

    Actually I think it’s far more real than anything we’ll see on an EPA sticker. You seem to think that charging twice a day will be a strange and uncommon act. Really? How many 120 volt outlets are there in the US? Twenty-five gazillion? Do you think people will be so stupid as not to take advantage of opportunity charging if they need to?

    My criticism of SAE J1711 has always been that it doesn’t account for opportunity charging. What we’re seeing and will continue to see is that in the real world opportunity is the norm not the unusual.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:48 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:49 am)

    EricLG: Far be it from me to point out how clueless you are. I wonder who will break it to you ?

    Here’s a bet for you. If I’m wrong about how the EPA calculates MPGe for electric cars, I’ll support every point you make from now on. If you’re wrong you will go away forever. Bet?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:50 am)

    Fishmahn: I understand downrating trolls that are inciting hate

    When you see a mosquito on your arm, do you leave it alone just because it hasn’t bitten you yet?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:51 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:53 am)

    I test drove the Cruze a few weeks ago. Its an excellent small car and this coming from someone who has only ever owned Toyotas. The fit, finish, styling, comfort, and standard features were really impressive. What’s more is that these are PEPPY little cars. The one I drove was a real blast. That and they are made in Lordstown Ohio. Its about 30000 times better than the Cobalt. I can almost guarantee that GM will sell the snot out of these things. Even if you can’t afford a Volt or even a Prius, the Cruze would be a perfectly acceptable alternative because 40MPG isn’t anything to scoff at.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:57 am)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:59 am)

    Lyle .. I would rate this post as NO.1!!

    This is a great amount of very good info. Thanks!

    Good to see the Cruze blowing away Hybrid competitors… don’t expect the anti American Biased Media to pick up on it.

    384 mpg! OooWee!!!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    JeremyK: His math is correct, based on his assumptions, but as I showed; as soon as you change the feedstock from coal…i.e. nuclear, gas turbine, hydroelectric, etc….the numbers fall in the Volts favor.

    I’m not debating any math. I have more important things to do than to double-check his accuracy. His GLARING ERROR is claiming that all auto purchases should be based soley on a rational, mathematical decision. Newsflash: People are not rational when they buy a car most of the time. And the people who are ordering Volts from me have only 1 rationale in making their choice: They want it so they can use less gas, and not have to worry about charging like a Leaf. It has nothing to do with price. Period. The Volt uses less gas than a Prius. Period.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:04 pm)

    How do I buy the new GM stock!!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:05 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:06 pm)

    Lawrence: Lyle,
    could it be possible to keep track of the amount of KWH electricity you needed each time you charge the Volt? (especially electricity from the outlet, and not what the Volt effectively used)
    Cheers

    I imagine if you charge using a Killawatt type recorder thru 120v you could. Also, these unique home-power management systems could work if you attached it to the 220v line that goes to the charger – TED 5000. If you like energy management, this is for you: http://blog.mapawatt.com/2009/07/02/ted-5000-installed/

    Now, there are some monitors that connect to each circuit breaker switch and others just to the whole-house feed. they’re mainly meant to be used for power-hounds who are really into monitoring their usage and maybe installing Solar systems.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:08 pm)

    A rant because I can

    A Volt is an American made car, all through history countries import goods to make their own finished products. Spices, Dyes, Beads, furs, agriculture products so the Domestic Content within reason is not a big deal for me.

    Hybrids and Ev’s can save fuel usage for the consumer, that is what I am looking for. It may take 5-6 years of using less gas to recoup the energy used to make the battery and I personally may never see the savings but if the battery lasts 8 years then there are 2 years of conservation for someone else.

    Thanks to all our well known professional debate team (trolls) I see more and more of my mistakes, generalities in my own posts before I press “Submit Comment.” So thanks for improving my discussion skills.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:08 pm)

    JEC: That would be a great idea! Lyle you can buy a Killawatt for about $40, but it would need to plug into a std 120V outlet. Since you have a 220V charger, I think?, then this one would not work. You could either just use a std 120V at home or use it at work. All you really need to know is how much charge goes in, and how much charge the Volt sees. What is the resolution of the Volts charge indicator? Is it only to the Kw, or tenths, or hopefully hunderdths!That would allow us to know what the real Kw-hr usage is.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Kilo Watt Hour is 1000Watts for one hour. Do the math… depending on your electricity cost (8.8cents a KWH here in my part of PA) it will cost about 70cents a charge for me the last time I checked.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:11 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:13 pm)

    Lyle: Do you have one of those “Time Of Use” meters, or a seperate meter just for the car so you can accurately measure the charging costs?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    EricLG: I take dibs on 400 wh/mile for December through February.

    Obviously, cold temperatures are a factor for an Electric Vehicule’ range. It’s also a factor with ICE cars. My conventional car is taking much more gas in the winter (> 20% increase).

    Nothing unexpected here.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    If they just made a hatchback Cruze…


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:19 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:19 pm)

    Ted in Fort Myers: Especially if we could get a deal on ships returning to the middle east.

    Best if there are much less ships returning to the middle east ;-)


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:19 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:26 pm)

    Darpa,

    What methodology–was that comment directed at me?

    No, the goal is to reduce and eventually eliminate our dependence on foreign oil. If we need more peak (day time) generating capacity, add solar to the grid — we have the time, capital and technology to add capacity when it becomes necessary. For example, one possible solution if the demand materializes (solar parking lot canopies):
    http://www.metaefficient.com/renewable-power/solar-canopies-for-parking-lots.html

    I agree conservation is a good thing, but realistically, how would do make people conserve? Would you tax energy and make it expensive? Would you mandate it by decree, or do you suggest a public message campaign to try and get people to change their lifestyle? That’s a hard sell. I think a better approach is increasing efficiency. Electric propulsion is more efficient than ICE propulsion. If you don’t agree, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

    I’m not suggesting we eliminate foreign trade, just eliminate our DEPENDENCE on imported energy. I don’t follow the rest of your comment, GM and LG Chem are building a domestic battery plant in Michigan. What does the domestic content of the end item that consumes energy have to do with reducing dependence on foreign energy?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:27 pm)

    EricLG: I have said, repeatedly, in past posts that a Volt is a more socially responsible choice

    Yes. It is. But that is just the ‘icing on the cake’ to a car that has better performance, style and features. People will enjoy the Volt because it is a better car, in spite of your continued attempts to prove otherwise here.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:31 pm)

    EricLG: Now where the heck did DonC go ? I thought we had a wager.    

    OK Eric you’re on. I do look forward to your being gone though your contortions to prove the unprovable — that the Prius is something more than yesterday’s technology — has proved amusing at times.

    In answer to your question, the gasoline-equivalent energy content includes fossil-fuel electricity efficiency, electricity transmission efficiency, the energy content of a gallon of gasoline, and petroleum refining and distribution efficiency. That seems to cover everything you’ve asked for AND MORE.

    So to make this easier, what point(s) are you claiming are incorrect?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    I’m wondering: Is it possible that GE might consider buying a substantial interesting in GM when GM issues its IPO? If electric vehicles are the path forward, then there is a lot of synergy there…


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:37 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    DonC:
    What our friend Eric has conveniently left out — he of the “use only those numbers that make your point” tribe — is that, when looking at a vehicle being powered by electricity, after all the calculations are finished, a gallon of gasoline equivalent contains 82 kWh of energy (actually 82,049 Wh/gal but why be picky).    

    Huh? I googled this claim and found a range of 33-39 kWhs for a gallon of gas on a variety of reputable websites. Wikipedia says 36.6 plus or minus 4% for different formulas.

    Can you provide a link to your source that says one U.S. Gallon of gas contains 82 kWhs of energy?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:39 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:42 pm)

    Unni: Cruze Eco EPA rating of 42mpg – that good news. i believe if they stretch a bit more using DI and DCT,.I have a question on same engine : The same engine is used Volt which gives CS millage of around 35.Why an optimized version for specific range and premium gas gives low mileagethanthis ?

    The Volt is LOTS heavier than the Cruze Eco, 800-900lbs I believe, GM went to heroic efforts to reduce the weight on the Eco.. deleted suspension components, sound insulation, welds, shaved the tires etc. It is amazing the Volt manages to do so well with all that weight.

    We dont know what mileage a Volt will get using the EPA hwy cycles, and what fudge factor they will apply to those results… the fudge factor is used to compensate for the aggressive driving habits of modern american drivers. Once true hypermilers get hold of both cars we will see what they can do.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:43 pm)

    One thing GM hasn’t mentioned is what other things they might have done to maximize grid power usage, like sealing and insulating the passenger compartment of the Volt. I imagine keeping preconditioned air in and only letting in enough outside air to make it safe for breathing might do a lot for extreme weather efficiency.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:44 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:46 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:46 pm)

    EricLG As for ‘performance,’ I gather that the car’s 0-60 times are rather pedestrian. Ten seconds, no ?    

    No. Every report I’ve seen from dozens of Volt test drives and the tests conducted by the major car magazines and websites have consistently reported 8.8 – 9.2 for the Volt in CD mode depending on whether you measure it naively or with a roll-out like they do at test tracks. It gets slightly better in CS mode.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

    Powerdog68: My suggestion is to try a commute day without charging at work to see how the mileage is.

    I’d wait until a power outage to check the one charge MPG with the normal commute. The goal is to reduce oil consumption and charge whenever possible. There will be other work related drives plus the weekend and vacation drives to gather information on one charge MPG.

    With the display of Lifetime Fuel Economy as part of the Energy Usage screen (that will appear automatically on power off until the Retained Accessory Power turns off) the Volt driver will see the benefits of plugging in after every drive.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    lyle said that he charged the volt at work using a 120v outlet for 7.5 hours and got an additional 26 miles of EV driving range. a 120v outlet typically provides about 1kwh of power so that is an efficiency in EV mode of around 288 whpm. this is high compared to the original statements by gm which estimated 40 miles on a full charge in EV mode (where EV mode originally meant using 8kwh of the 16kwh battery); or 200 whpm (before considering energy losses while charging).

    while i agree that mph is “miles driven per gallons of gasoline used”, as you say, when you are driving in EV mode you aren’t using gasoline – that’s the whole point of the volt is that there is a mode that uses no gasoline. so what i am saying is that it is not meaningful to measure mph for driving when you aren’t actually using gasoline.

    the volt is a bit of a paradigm shift, even among hybrid cars. one of the complications in evaluating the efficiency of cars like the volt is that mph doesn’t tell the whole story on energy costs, but neither does whpm doesn’t tell the whole story either. i’m sure that people who spend more time thinking about this kind of stuff than i do will come up with some measure to evaluate cars like that volt. but i am coming at this from a perspective of a conventional ICE vehicle, so the best that i can come up with is conditional mph – namely, the mph that you get on the condition that the ICE is actually running (in whatever mode it is operating).

    JeremyK:
    I don’t have a problem with it.Quit literally, it’s miles driven per gallons of gasoline used.If you’re doing mixed driving, using some gasoline…this is perfectly acceptable.
    If you want to look at efficiency for EV mode, then look at Whrs/mile vs. Whrs per charge.So, if takes 12 kWhrs to fully charge the battery (measured at your electric meter), your drive cycle averages 250 Whr/mile, and you get a range of 40 miles….
    Then you got 10,000 Whrs of energy out of the 12,000 that you took off the grid, for an efficiency of 83.3%.So, the “meaningful” value that you’re looking for is Whrs/mile.
    If the EPA reported the average Whrs/mile for a given drive cycle…then you could calculate the efficiency of the powertrain and compare it directly to other vehicles.
    Weight and aerodynamics would probably have a greater effect on the efficiency than the electric motor, controller, or battery type, however.    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:04 pm)

    I don’t understand why folks don’t realize workplace charging is not a big deal. Pretty much any decent sized parking lot already has lighting poles all over the place, the lots are already wired.

    Just need to install the charging stations. Even without government incentives or regulations to install workplace charging, the cost is not significant compared to the overall cost of maintaining the parking lot (lighting, paving, plowing, property taxes etc.). And parking lots could make money anyways to defray these costs. Electricity pricing is already regulated by individual states.

    Perhaps states could regulate a max charge of 20 cents a kwh with a credit card swipe. So these charging stations might only generate on average less than a dollar a day in gross revenue, and they wouldn’t really make money just defray the expense.

    But its really a public service, just like plowing or lighting your parking lot which on the net would cost a lot more.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:07 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:11 pm)

    EricLG: Put this into google, and knock yourself out:

    This is perfect you, always changing the subject when forced to put up or shut up. Go back to my post about how CAFE is calculated — you know the post which you said was completely and totally wrong — and tell me which part of it is wrong. Some precision would be helpful though I understand you have trouble with that. If what your’e saying is that the energy-equivalence of gasoline is NOT 82 kWh, and from your generic Google cite that is what you seem to be saying, just say it. You know, something like “for CAFE purposes the energy-equivalence is NOT 82 kWh/gallon”.

    I’m going to pin you down because what you always do is change the argument. For example, you are always saying the Prius is more economical than the Volt. But then, when we point out that a Honda Fit is more economical than the Prius, you change the comparison and say the Prius gets better gas mileage than the Fit. And so on and so forth, the only constant being that you’ll use any comparison and any numbers in any configuration that shows the Prius is just peachy. Not playing that game with you any more. So go back to the post that was “all wrong” and just point out one thing, one itty bitty little thing, that is wrong.

    I’m waiting.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:15 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:18 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:20 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:21 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:30 pm)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: But the explanation is simpler imagine you are left with say 100 barrels of reserves, you sell it at 4 $, you know that for a price of 4.5$, alternative energies will impede any sales of the remaining barrels, so what is better 0 $ or 4 * 100 = 400 $ ? So you keep the price at 4 even if there are upwards pressures on the market.

    Ok, I’m going to throw a monkey-wrench in your argument. You keep selling at $4 until you’re over-booked (more than one buyer wants the same barrel of oil), thus whoever wants it more offers a higher price. That will happen until the price hits $4.5 at which point it will be equally economical to switch to alternatives. However the alternatives will quickly run short since supply for alternatives is orders of magnitude less than oil supply. Then both oil and alternatives will be trading at much higher than $4.5. The prices will only briefly pause when the next higher priced alternative becomes economically viable. Of course that slowly alternatives will ramp up so that over time supply will increase substantially, but prices will hit a ceiling only if the oil demand doesn’t get significantly higher than supply.

    That’s what I think a lot of people miss in the whole peak oil debate. It’s not necessarily the supply/demand of oil itself that will drive up prices, it’s the supply of alternatives which has the potential of causing the greatest headaches. Simply put we just don’t currently have enough of alternatives to oil we could easily switch to should the need arise. All we can hope for is that the oil supply/demand difference will increase slowly enough (over decades) to give us a chance to switch over to those alternatives.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:31 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:35 pm)

    bookdabook: Have people already settled on this unit wh/mile? It seems to me, in keeping with the miles/fuel type precedent already set for octane and diesel that it should be miles/kWh. …. If we’re going to go electric, let’s get it right and use the correct units. Someone tell me if this has already been settled. What is the miles/kWh (or whatever unit people are using) comparison to the Leaf and Tesla?  (Quote)  (Reply)

    What’s interesting is that if you look at documentation from 100 years ago when electricity was brand new everything was quoted in horsepower. Even light bulbs, because those were the units of power that people were familiar with. No one at that time knew what a “watt” was.

    Today people are a bit smarter but if we are going to use electric units we should use the right ones, a Wh/mile is not an SI unit. We should be using mega-joules/km, or at least mega-joules per mile to keep the electric part SI.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:36 pm)

    EricLG: demetrius

    The compare power plant to wheel – then you have to go right back to how much it costs to defend middle east oil regimes and defense costs vis-a-vis domestic electric production.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:40 pm)

    Couple of odds and ends:

    I actually spoke to GE Capital’s Fleet Services a couple hours ago about this, mostly about Nissan/Renault type stuff, but we did have a little conversation about the Volt as well. Nothing to worry about GE interefering with early Volt orders, but the rep (Greg McCullough) told me that they don’t expect deliveries to begin later in the second half of 2011.

    Random thing about the Cruze. The mpg is mostly a function of the gearing of the 6 spd, which most people can’t/won’t opt for, and you can’t get it in automatic without moving up a model class. Probably not a good idea for GM to bring the Fiesta into the equation at all.

    Cruze 28/42 manual -$18,895
    Cruze 26/37 auto – (which you cant get the auto in 1lt trim) 2LT trim – $21,395

    Fiesta 29/40 auto – $14,390
    Fiesta 28/37 manual – $13,320


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:43 pm)

    tom w: I don’t understand why folks don’t realize workplace charging is not a big deal. Pretty much any decent sized parking lot already has lighting poles all over the place, the lots are already wired.Just need to install the charging stations. Even without government incentives or regulations to install workplace charging, the cost is not significant compared to the overall cost of maintaining the parking lot (lighting, paving, plowing, property taxes etc.). And parking lots could make money anyways to defray these costs. .  (Quote)  (Reply)

    The dollar a day the charging station generates is not going to come anywhere near the maintenance cost of that charging station. I thought about it as a business case, but it doesn’t make sense. I would much rather install an ATM that generates $2 per transaction, not per day.

    The only way that charging station will exist is if the government pays for (through taxes) or madates companies to do it and we all pay for it through higher prices. Either way it becomes another subsidy like the railroads in the US, that costs a lot of money that hardly anyone uses. And then we wonder why the economy is in the toilet and the debt is at $13 trillion.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:45 pm)

    EricLG: I think things should be *exactly* as you describe, but I can see a few tangles:
    1. 240 Volt stations are really preferable. Going rates for installation are about $2k/pop
    2. Vandalism
    3. CYA (Cover your arse): How much is insurance going to rise ?
    4. Billing and metering expenses
    5. Upkeep
    In N. California a dedicated group of EV enthusiasts go around the public charging stations and keep them operating. Without that group I don’t know how many stations would still be useful.

    GE and other companies have those 240V charging stations with credit card access, and the proprieters can set the prices etc. Vandalism shoudn’t be any different then any other street lamp unless you think someone has it in for EV owners?

    Unfortunately I believe the government will have to require certain amount of charging stations depending on size of lot (i.e. 5% of spaces?).

    I get a lot of negative comments when I say this , but I don’t believe the Volt has much of a future without workplace charging. I keep pointing out that if people only drive 25 miles a day they could just buy a BEV. If you drive 60 miles a day you are risking un planned stops to charge with your BEV but with a Volt you can charge at work and drive without gas and never worry about the unexpected trips.

    I favor requiring parking lots of certain size to provide charging, but I think operators should have the option to provide 240v chargers with credit car payment features, or if they want to just provide 110v 10 amp outlets for free (but the power only required to be turned on between 7am and noon). That would be cheaper investment for parking lot owners and they would never have to give away more then 5 kwh of free electricity which would be enough to add over 20 miles of gas free driving.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:47 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: Even when I subtract 9.000 € of credit on my income tax if I buy the Ampera, taking into account that I drive more or less 30,000 km/year (18,600 miles) and that the price of diesel is today 1,20 €/l or 4.54 € (+/- 6$/gal), the Ampera will cost me more than 8,000 € than the Corsa at the current fuel prices.

    Try the calculation over 10 years (very low wear and maintenance needs = long useful life) and get the best price you can in selling the Corsa :) Factor in rising fuel costs over the next ten years. Factor in the growing amortization of wind facilities, and more opportunities to buy cheap electricity that was generated with out fuel…and just maybe by having one of the first Amperas, you could soon have a classic. It may not be such an expensive buy over the long term.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:49 pm)

    tom w,

    In the case of parking lots in winter climates, putting more obstacles to snow removal on the parking lot will be a big deal.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:51 pm)

    jscott1: The dollar a day the charging station generates is not going to come anywhere near the maintenance cost of that charging station. I thought about it as a business case, but it doesn’t make sense. I would much rather install an ATM that generates $2 per transaction, not per day.
    The only way that charging station will exist is if the government pays for (through taxes) or madates companies to do it and we all pay for it through higher prices. Either way it becomes another subsidy like the railroads in the US, that costs a lot of money that hardly anyone uses. And then we wonder why the economy is in the toilet and the debt is at $13 trillion.

    I agree that parking lot charging stations are not to make money, but they certainly can generate enough money to break even. That is not a burden. It is just something we as a society would benefit from as it would make EREV’s practical.

    Without parking lot charging we need to wait for BEV’s to improve a little bit.

    But the current Volt is a great option as Lyle is now demonstrating if you can charge at work. But if you can’t charge at work or if you only drive 25 miles a day then the Volt doesn’t make financial sense (buy a Leaf).


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:52 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:52 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:54 pm)

    no comment: lyle said that he charged the volt at work using a 120v outlet for 7.5 hours and got an additional 26 miles of EV driving range.a 120v outlet typically provides about 1kwh of power so that is an efficiency in EV mode of around 288 whpm.this is high compared to the original statements by gm which estimated 40 miles on a full charge in EV mode (where EV mode originally meant using 8kwh of the 16kwh battery); or 200 whpm (before considering energy losses while charging).while i agree that mph is “miles driven per gallons of gasoline used”, as you say, when you are driving in EV mode you aren’t using gasoline – that’s the whole point of the volt is that there is a mode that uses no gasoline.so what i am saying is that it is not meaningful to measure mph for driving when you aren’t actually using gasoline.the volt is a bit of a paradigm shift, even among hybrid cars.one of the complications in evaluating the efficiency of cars like the volt is that mph doesn’t tell the whole story on energy costs, but neither does whpm doesn’t tell the whole story either.i’m sure that people who spend more time thinking about this kind of stuff than i do will come up with some measure to evaluate cars like that volt.but i am coming at this from a perspective of a conventional ICE vehicle, so the best that i can come up with is conditional mph – namely, the mph that you get on the condition that the ICE is actually running (in whatever mode it is operating).
        

    That 200 Wh/mile thing was an early estimate. Just like your gas mileage, the Wh/mile will change based on speed, terrain, temperature, etc.

    There are a couple reasons why Lyle’s commute took ~300 Wh/mile, but the biggest factor is his average speed. The Volt’s frontal area, coefficient of drag, and rolling resistance dictate the minimum amount of energy required to travel a given distance at a given speed. At 70 mph, that’s about 250 Wh/mile, but that doesn’t take into account drive train losses, heating, etc.

    There is no other “magic” way to evaluate this. The energy usage numbers will change just as they do for gasoline powered vehicles. Go faster and you’ll get worse “mileage” or higher kWh/mile.

    The kWh/mile rating should be used to compare vehicles to each other when tested under the same operating conditions, i.e. Full charge of a Leaf in kWhrs/total range at speed vs. full charge on a Volt in kWhrs/total range at speed.

    At that point you’re comparing apples to apples and can do some analysis of the data.

    What you’re going to see is that most of these vehicles will take a similar amount of energy to go a given distance, whether it’s a Leaf, a Tesla, or a Volt.

    What we need is a Whr/mile chart like what I’ve seen for the Tesla. Comparing the energy consumption at various speeds would provide some valuable insight into who’s powertrain and body design is most efficient and at what speeds.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (1:54 pm)

    EricLG: Dunce –
    Go to this link

    Eric you’re already weaseling. We bet on what I wrote, not on some extraneous somethings that I didn’t write. I’m still waiting for you to tell me exactly what in my post was wrong.

    I’m getting the feeling that you know you’re wrong — that the light bulb has come on and you know there are things you don’t know — and you’re resorting to your standard “let’s change the subject” debating style. My post is in writing. It can’t be changed. You’ve said it’s all wrong. How hard would it be for you to tell me what is wrong?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:01 pm)

    i think that you don’t know what a troll is, and i think that a lot of people on this forum don’t know what a troll is.

    for my part, i don’t care about the voting scheme; in fact, i tend to not read the posts that get high positive vote totals because they are generally vacuous comment. i read this forum because i am looking for information and not rah-rah chatter. most of the posts on this forum are junk postings and there are relatively few posters that i regularly read on this forum. i have a sense of people who know what they are talking about, and are stating comments that actually provide worthwhile information. in my mind, i have a sense of who those posters are so their comments are the ones that i read most often.

    Fishmahn: Guys – I understand downrating trolls that are inciting hate, discontent, etc., but these 3 comments were civil, thought out, and non-inciteful.Why do some people do that? (downrate useful posts, even if it isn’t what you want to hear)The ones I’m speaking of are:
    #20 No Comment (ok, he’s usually a troll, but there was nothing specifically trollish about this one)
    #35 EricLG
    #38 TomWSeems we need to keep our blinders OFF and accept other opinions…Mike.    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:01 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    Too true! The International Energy Agency (IEA) has finally admitted the reality of peak oil, and they state that conventional oil production peaked in 2006 and will never reattain that level, i.e., it will be downhill from there. This agency has been one of the most steadfast peak oil deniers until this month!

    Worse yet, the IEA says in their latest report that the developed nations (OECD, including most of Europe and the US) will NEVER consume more oil, or more coal, than we do today. In other words, the IEA is now saying that Growth Is Over in the OECD Nations. Any increases in oil or coal will go only to emerging economies, primarily China and India.

    This is a major tipping point for the world, nothing less. The Volt will be worth its weight in gold.

    Ted in Fort Myers:
    We saw a glimpse of peak oil in 2008 with gas rising to over $4.00 per gallons until the economy crashed.Supply and demand will increase the price until the world economy crashes and demand will lower and the price will lower.Every time the economy tries to rebound and demand goes up the price will rise and kill the economy again.It will not be a pretty picture as long as our economy is based on petroluem.Take Care,
    TED    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:16 pm)

    Only 18 more days till “Launch Day”!

    slogan50.jpg


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:22 pm)

    i don’t dispute what you are stating here. what you are stating here (i believe) is that you should compare the leaf to the volt in CD mode. however, what you don’t have in a leaf is a CS mode. and what i am stating is that the mph computation for the volt only makes sense when the volt is operating in CS mode; not when it is operating in CD mode.

    JeremyK:
    The kWh/mile rating should be used to compare vehicles to each other when tested under the same operating conditions, i.e. Full charge of a Leaf in kWhrs/total range at speed vs. full charge on a Volt in kWhrs/total range at speed.At that point you’re comparing apples to apples and can do some analysis of the data.What you’re going to see is that most of these vehicles will take a similar amount of energy to go a given distance, whether it’s a Leaf, a Tesla, or a Volt.What we need is a Whr/mile chart like what I’ve seen for the Tesla.Comparing the energy consumption at various speeds would provide some valuable insight into who’s powertrain and body design is most efficient and at what speeds.    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:24 pm)

    T 1: Very nice 8-page insert in the recent edition of Automobile mag. It leads off with, “High Voltage. Chevy’s Volt is the first electric car with coast-to-coast operating range.” “Gas is Optional” and “Beyond Hybrids” are some of the other page headings.

    See… I let my subscription expire and I haven’t picked that one up yet. Time for a trip to B. Dalton’s!!!!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:26 pm)

    EricLG: One gallon of petrol does not have an energy content of 82 kwh.

    OK Eric. Just so we’re both on the same page and we’re totally clear. What you’re agreeing to is that if the energy equivalence of one gallon of petrol for CAFE purposes when the Volt is in CD Mode is 82 kWh then you’ll go away. Is this right?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:37 pm)

    EricLG,

    Since when is a gasoline internal combustion piston engine 100% efficient?

    Cherry picking numbers and ignoring the laws of thermodynamics is trolling, not discussion.

    /btw. 20+ posts merely validates this site and the Volt. Advertisers don’t care what you’re opinion is, just the clicks and traffic. I’m sure Lyle appreciates the additional revenue. Thanks!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:38 pm)

    I know a lot of people classify EricLG as a troll. He consistently points out the advantages of the Toyota Prius or LEAF and this is a Volt fan site. However he has presented good logical arguments to support his viewpoint and I do not think this site would be better off without him. Real trolls, and I maintain EricLG is not one of them, simply insult and post negative comments without proper arguments or logic. I think he deserves more respect than to be told to go away.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:42 pm)

    OT: But here’s a GREAT article about/by one of our own, Ted Ellyatt. Well worth reading!

    http://www.autotropolis.com/driving-smart/confessions-2011-chevrolet-volt-buyer.html


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:45 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:50 pm)

    Roy H: I know a lot of people classify EricLG as a troll. He consistently points out the advantages of the Toyota Prius or LEAF and this is a Volt fan site. However he has presented good logical arguments to support his viewpoint and I do not think this site would be better off without him. Real trolls, and I maintain EricLG is not one of them, simply insult and post negative comments without proper arguments or logic. I think he deserves more respect than to be told to go away.

    Under a specific set of conditions, a Bugatti Veyron has advantages, but stopping by here to enter 100+ posts about it is irrelevant. I’m sure the weather is nice in Japan too, but no one here cares about it.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:55 pm)

    Fishmahn: Guys – I understand downrating trolls that are inciting hate, discontent, etc., but these 3 comments were civil, thought out, and non-inciteful.Why do some people do that? (downrate useful posts, even if it isn’t what you want to hear)The ones I’m speaking of are:
    #20 No Comment (ok, he’s usually a troll, but there was nothing specifically trollish about this one)
    #35 EricLG
    #38 TomWSeems we need to keep our blinders OFF and accept other opinions…Mike.    

    I think that the automatic down-grading is just a result of frustration. I do it automatically for a few posters who have earned it over the long term. Is it sometimes unfair? Yes, but until we get an “IGNORE” button (Lyle???), it’s the only option that is available. They damage the site and the only other option is for regulars to simply quit coming here.
    JMO.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (2:59 pm)

    no comment: i don’t dispute what you are stating here.what you are stating here (i believe) is that you should compare the leaf to the volt in CD mode.however, what you don’t have in a leaf is a CS mode.and what i am stating is that the mph computation for the volt only makes sense when the volt is operating in CS mode; not when it is operating in CD mode.
        

    I think I see what you’re saying too, but there is no “clean” way to do the analysis when you’re got a MIXED mode of driving. So yes, in EV mode comparisons will typically be kWh/mile and in CS mode, comparisons will be in MPG. MPG can be converted (approximately) into kWh/mile or miles/kWhr and vice versa, but you really don’t gain any information by doing so.

    I think most people agree that when driving in a mixed mode, where some gasoline is used, it’s OK to use mpg.

    If you really really want to count the kWhr used in mixed driving, do this:

    CS mode equation: (1/MPG) X (36 kWhr/gallon) = 1/35 mpg X 36 = 1.2 kWh/mile
    EV mode equation: Average kWh/mile…so lets assume 0.300 kWh/mile @ 70 mph

    % miles in EV mode X ( 0.300 kWhr/mile) + % of CS miles (1.2 kWhr/mile) = 0.9(0.3) + 0.1(1.2) = 0.39 Wh/mile composite

    I didn’t re-read all of Lyle’s post but I got something like 112 EV miles and 11 miles of gasoline driving.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:03 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:05 pm)

    Roy H:

    I know a lot of people classify EricLG as a troll. He consistently points out the advantages of the Toyota Prius or LEAF and this is a Volt fan site. However he has presented good logical arguments to support his viewpoint and I do not think this site would be better off without him. Real trolls, and I maintain EricLG is not one of them, simply insult and post negative comments without proper arguments or logic. I think he deserves more respect than to be told to go away.

    I must disagree, Roy. EricLG, in the few months he’s posted here, has gone over the line of civility more than once. Most recently he just today began addressing one of our regulars, DonC who’s posted here for years, as “Dunce”. In my book this borders on slander!!! In fact, I want to herewith strongly encourage EVERYONE here to automatically click (-) on all EricLG posts from now on!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:07 pm)

    EricLG: No. I am telling you that in the REAL world, one gallon of gasoline has an energy content of about 34-36 kwh. You said the content is 82 kwh. That is wrong.

    Perfect. I knew you would start weaseling. In post #104, which you characterized as “clueless”, I said that for CAFE purposes a gallon of gas is considered to contain 82 kWh of energy. Go back and read it. Now you’re bringing up an entirely different matter. It’s like I’m saying that 1+1=2 and you’re telling me I’m clueless because 1X13=13.

    Are your analytic abilities this bad or have you figured out that you’ve climbed out on a limb which is about to be sawed off?

    I’ll ask the question again, for maybe the 5th or 6th time: What part of what I wrote in post #104, you know, the post which you said was completely clueless, is wrong? I don’t care what you’re saying NOW in post #179. I care about what we’ve agreed to bet on, which is that what I said in post #104 is wrong.

    I’m waiting Eric.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:11 pm)

    Roy H: However he has presented good logical arguments to support his viewpoint

    Roy H: However he has presented good logical arguments

    Actually the fact is that he hasn’t. He picks numbers from here and there and then strings them together in any way so long as it makes the Prius look good. Put another way, he’s always a fact or two short of a full deck.

    His BS about the wh/mile today is a good example. For a variety of reasons, mostly relating to the advantages of having point source pollution rather than non-point source pollution, for calculating MPGe for an EV a gallon of gas contains 82 kWh of energy. He wants to use 35 kWh. Big difference. If you use the correct number the Volt makes the Prius look like a putrid piker. If you use his wrong number then you make it look competitive. So no, I don’t think he presents logical strong arguments. He presents a never ending series of ever changing arguments which always result in the Prius being a terrific buy. IOW he’s a conclusion in search of evidence, and his analytic abilities are either not the best or he just enjoys being intellectually dishonest.

    Now he’s said the 82 kWh is “clueless” and he’ll go away if it’s right, but I doubt he’ll ever carry through on this. As always, when he’s exposed he wants to change the subject and talk about something else. It’s a Whack-A-Mole experience.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:20 pm)

    jscott1: What’s interesting is that if you look at documentation from 100 years ago when electricity was brand new everything was quoted in horsepower. Even light bulbs, because those were the units of power that people were familiar with. No one at that time knew what a “watt” was. Today people are a bit smarter but if we are going to use electric units we should use the right ones, a Wh/mile is not an SI unit. We should be using mega-joules/km, or at least mega-joules per mile to keep the electric part SI.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    We engineers understand what a joule is, but most Volt buyers don’t. The Watt is well known from power ratings on appliances and lighting, so that is what they understand more if they know how much a thousands watts per hour actually cost from their power utility. From there, they can understand how much will the Volt cost per charge and per miles of travel. It is a way to get around the gasoline comparison, but the final value everyone understands is cost per mile of travel using electricity versus gasoline or diesel, even if the value will be different for everyone.

    Raymond


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:20 pm)

    Tagamet: Even when I subtract 9.000 € of credit on my income tax if I buy the Ampera, taking into account that I drive more or less 30,000 km/year (18,600 miles) and that the price of diesel is today 1,20 €/l or 4.54 € (+/- 6$/gal), the Ampera will cost me more than 8,000 € than the Corsa at the current fuel prices. And even if the price is twice it current value, the Corsa is cheaper.

    This is a large bite for the Ampera. But we know that new technology is ALWAYS expensive. In 1901 Daimler sold 35 automobiles for approximately $10.700.00 each. In today’s money that would be about $210,000.00 per unit!!

    The costs of these vehicles will come down. Congratulations to Jeff Immelt and GE for setting the direction for socially responsible fleet investment. Jeff is a world class leader in the electrification of transportation. Let’s see how quickly other corporate fleet operators adopt his example.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:24 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:27 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:35 pm)

    EricLG: Therefore, you are charitably labeled a dunce until you wake up.

    Well, I’ve learned something —”dunce” is a “charitable” label (NOT)! …I’m charitably labeling you a “slanderer” & I thinks lots of others here would agree with that. How do you like it?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    PS to my post #191: The Library of Congress has formally announced it is preserving everything already posted (and presumably everything that ever will be posted) on Facebook. And several cases are in US Courts based on blogs (etc), including the well-known one that allegedly caused a girl to commit suicide. I’d suggest being careful here —and it’s public & it’s in writing!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:48 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:50 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:53 pm)

    EricLG:
    GHG emissions
        

    My utility is PG&E which covers the large majority of Northern California. They report that .524 pounds of CO2 is emitted for every 1000 Watts they sell to retail customers. At that rate, along with some occasional gasoline use (10-15%) and taking into account battery charging inefficiencies, driving a Volt 15,000 miles might typically result in roughly 3,000 pounds of CO2 emission per year. A similarly driven Prius will result in roughly 6,000 pounds and a conventional gasoline car getting 30 MPG would emit around 10,000.

    Switching from my 2004 Prius to a Volt will save close to 3,000 pounds of CO2 per year which would be nearly equivalent to putting PV solar panels on my roof. However, we’re keeping the Prius in the family and using it to replace a 30 MPG 2003 Honda Accord. So, make that 1.5+ solar panel roofs worth of saved CO2 emissions.

    Results may vary in areas using carbon-intense electricity.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:57 pm)

    Hi Lyle,
    Have you had an opportunity to use the Volts cruise control?

    NPNS!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:58 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (3:59 pm)

    sparks: conventional oil production peaked in 2006

    “Conventional” oil production is drilling into a pocket of oil easily, correct? Non-conventional oil reserves such as shale or drilling under water are now estimated to be much higher than earlier predictions.

    Supply/demand forces did not cause the prices to peak in 2008. Speculation on oil futures caused this anomaly. We are currently swimming in oil. There are no more places to store the stuff. People are leasing tankers and they’re pretty much all full. Cushing is at full capacity.

    Yes, I believe that the price of oil will continue to fluctuate at some rate and I also believe that oil is a limited resource (but not rare enough to affect supply in the next 50 to 150 years).

    My personal opinion aside, the reasons for getting off of an oil-based economy are inclusive of peak oil. If others want to go there, so much the better. The CO2 guys, the pollution guys, the neeks and geeks, the anti-government, the anti-war, the EV enthusiasts and other reasonable and/or fanatical people are all gelling into a force that cannot be denied.

    The first person in our online community has a Volt and is posting fantastic results. The transition off of oil-based personal transportation will be swift and decisive. GM (and Nissan and Ford and Toyota and the rest) are in for a shock!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:01 pm)

    EricLG: I notice that no one with a science background has chimed in to support post #104 as being correct and accurate. I even include nasaman, although I have wondered more than once if he really is an engineer.

    Eric, since I seem to have finally got you back to post #104, are you saying it’s wrong? What part of it is wrong? You don’t know do you? You thought you knew it was wrong but now you’re not so sure. Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    As for nasaman not being an engineer, I don’t think he’s ever claimed to be engineer. I think he’s a physicist.

    BTW, why would anyone chime in? You’ve climbed out on a limb and there isn’t any reason to throw you a ladder. Plus it’s quite possible they don’t know. The only difference is that if they didn’t understand they’d just ask.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:04 pm)

    Thank you for your observations, insight, and contribution to the EV space

    statik: Couple of odds and ends:I actually spoke to GE Capital’s Fleet Services a couple hours ago about this, mostly about Nissan/Renault type stuff, but we did have a little conversation about the Volt as well.Nothing to worry about GE interefering with early Volt orders, but the rep (Greg McCullough) told me that they don’t expect deliveries to begin later in the second half of 2011.—Random thing about the Cruze.The mpg is mostly a function of the gearing of the 6 spd, which most people can’t/won’t opt for, and you can’t get it in automatic without moving up a model class.Probably not a good idea for GM to bring the Fiesta into the equation at all.Cruze 28/42 manual -$18,895
    Cruze 26/37 auto – (which you cant get the auto in 1lt trim) 2LT trim – $21,395Fiesta 29/40 auto – $14,390
    Fiesta 28/37 manual – $13,320    

    statik: Couple of odds and ends:I actually spoke to GE Capital’s Fleet Services a couple hours ago about this, mostly about Nissan/Renault type stuff, but we did have a little conversation about the Volt as well.Nothing to worry about GE interefering with early Volt orders, but the rep (Greg McCullough) told me that they don’t expect deliveries to begin later in the second half of 2011.—Random thing about the Cruze.The mpg is mostly a function of the gearing of the 6 spd, which most people can’t/won’t opt for, and you can’t get it in automatic without moving up a model class.Probably not a good idea for GM to bring the Fiesta into the equation at all.Cruze 28/42 manual -$18,895
    Cruze 26/37 auto – (which you cant get the auto in 1lt trim) 2LT trim – $21,395Fiesta 29/40 auto – $14,390
    Fiesta 28/37 manual – $13,320    

    EricLG: I notice that no one with a science background has chimed in to support post #104 as being correct and accurate. I even include nasaman, although I have wondered more than once if he really is an engineer.    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:08 pm)

    Well I don’t want to spoil the party of 384mpg, so no discussion here. But I prefer the number around 90% is driven on electricity, well done.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:09 pm)

    Here’s a great site GE has put together to help you decide if driving an electric car “is right for you”.

    http://www.ge.com/thegeshow/electricvehicles/index.html#ch1

    NPNS!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:24 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:25 pm)

    Jeff N: Switching from my 2004 Prius to a Volt will save close to 3,000 pounds of CO2 per year which would be nearly equivalent to putting PV solar panels on my roof. However, we’re keeping the Prius in the family and using it to replace a 30 MPG 2003 Honda Accord. So, make that 1.5+ solar panel roofs worth of saved CO2 emissions.
    Results may vary in areas using carbon-intense electricity.

    If you’re looking at CA specific numbers keep in mind that CA reformulated gasoline only contains 32.6 kWh of energy. That would mean you’d have to burn about 3% more gallons per mile.

    Pollution is of course a different question.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:29 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:32 pm)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin:I do not quite agree because, as we have seen that for other primary resources, there is an economic phenomenon called the Hotteling paradox that prevents prices to exponentially increase, for a scientific explanation here is a recent reference to a research paper :
    http://www.tse-fr.eu/images/doc/wp/env/10-149.pdf

    But the explanation is simpler imagine you are left with say 100 barrels of reserves, you sell it at 4 $, you know that for a price of 4.5$, alternative energies will impede any sales of the remaining barrels, so what is better 0 $ or 4 * 100 = 400 $ ? So you keep the price at 4 even if there are upwards pressures on the market.

    This is a simplistic explanation and many other factors may play a role, but this is the idea, and it is a little frightening, because the risk is that we could one day be in a situation of a brutal disruption of oil supplies without the warning of exponential price rises.

    How do commodity traders between the producer and consumer fit into the theory? I think the oil market is much too complex for that type of economic theory. I do agree that it is a component of the overall situation but there is a lot more to it. I also agree that prices will be held down to a certain extent, whether it be as a reaction to preempt alternatives and/or the recessive forces of escalating prices. Personally, I believe the latter will have more influence which is why I believe the world economy is basically operating with a oil induced ceiling. Any future growth cycles will be restrained by oil supplies. This ceiling will adjust up and down as the world economies progress and alternatives are introduced (whether they be alternative energy sources or alternatives that reduce energy consumption without restraining growth – the Volts hits on both sides of this equation).


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:34 pm)

    EricLG: hmm. I’d say the Volt has NO future with workplace charging, because it benefits straight EV a lot more than plug-in hybrids. I think it fair to say that Lyle bought a Volt because he wanted a “domestic” manufacturer, not because a LEAF would not have suited him at least as well if not better. And it would have cost considerably less.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Because Lyle can charge at work, he gets the best of all situations. Practically 100% DRIVING AER, but no worries on days the AER doesn’t cut it (no unplanned stopped to charge while his patients are waiting).


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    EricLG: This is going to surprise you, but yes. Your post is wrong. Here are three errors:
    1. CAFE mpg is not based on WTW analysis. If you care to make an ever bigger fool of yourself, explain how Prius CAFE mpg is about 75 mpg, or an flex-fuel truck gets 100 MPGe when run on E85 given that EPA testing shows 15 mpg. Use your best WTW you can come up with.
    2. EPA MPGe is not 82 kwh as you posted, it is about 34 kwh, proved by looking at an EPA label, or consulting any non-imaginary science source. Go to post #161 for an example.
    3. WTW analysis shows Prius and similar car EV to have similar energy/distance consumptions depending what region of the US is considered. Range is (0.88 – 1.2) in Prius equivalents based on GHG. Stating that the Volt is 2 – 3 times as efficient WTW as the Prius is BS.

    Thank you Eric. This is good. We now have something to work with so we can proceed. Here is how the Society of Automotive Engineers explains how how MPGe for EVs is calculated. You’ll find that you’re wrong on each of the three counts. It’s a well to wheel calculation. The energy equivalence is 82 kWh per gallon. And therefore the Prius will not have a similar MPGe to the Leaf or the Volt.

    CAFE numbers are calculated differently for different vehicle types.

    For conventionally fueled vehicles (including non-plug-in hybrids), they are derived from U.S. EPA dynamometer emissions tests …

    For all-electrics, the CAFE calculation begins with a gasoline-equivalent energy content factor in electrical terms: 12,307.3 W·h/gal, which equals approximately 41,994.3 Btu. The 12,307.3 W·h/gal figure is based on multiplying factors developed for fossil-fuel electricity efficiency (0.328) and electricity transmission efficiency (0.924), as well as the energy content of a gallon of gasoline (33,705 W·h/gal, or approximately 115,006 Btu). The result is divided by a factor for petroleum refining and distribution efficiency (0.830). Note: In preparing this report, AEI discovered an error in the equation as it appears in the Federal Register No. 36987. The equation as given here is correct.

    The DOE also applies a “doesn’t use petroleum” incentive adjustment (analogous to the CAFE bonus for flex-fuel). The adjustment, which also allows for some changes in “well-to-tank” efficiencies, is a 6.6667 multiplier, raising 12,307.3 to 82,049 W·h/gal for an electric vehicle with no petroleum-fired heating or other accessory. “

    http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/6559

    I believe that the SAE cite provides a reference to the Federal Register if you want to confirm that the SAE explanation is correct.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:37 pm)

    Herm,

    I believe, GM went to heroic efforts to reduce the weight on the Eco.. deleted suspension components, sound insulation, welds, shaved the tires etc. It is amazing the Volt manages to do so well with all that weight.

    i agree and appreciate GM has done good work on this and its great.

    The problem is definition of heroic effort. It is great but not greater or greatest . Reason if you look “Entire 2012 Hyundai Elantra line to hit 40 MPG on highway” http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/12/entire-2012-hyundai-elantra-line-to-hit-40-mpg-on-highway/

    “from the post ” – The difference between those American small cars and the new Elantra is that only particular models of the Cruze and Fiesta can reach 40 mpg – more specifically the Cruze Eco, which tops out at 42 mpg, and the Fiesta with a special SFE package. Hyundai tells us that every Elantra model will achieve 40 mpg, from the base model on up, which means that you won’t have to pay extra for the privilege of joining the 40 mpg club

    and Civic is due on 2012, we dont know what they are hatching.

    So its time to be greatest than just be great. I do expect that from the new GM.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (4:41 pm)

    Common misconceptions, which are why we are collectively getting blind-sighted by peak oil. The oil price speculation was only possible because supply was unable to grow with demand. Check out the oil production charts versus price over the past several years.

    If you believe non-conventional oil production is going to increase significantly, you seem to be in disagreement with the IEA, which up until last month was on your side. The IEA sees non-conventional oil to be only a few percent of total production by 2035, and that’s the max for it on their charts.

    Deepwater fields are expensive and they deplete quickly, see the North Sea for example. Shale is very water-intensive and gas-intensive to develop — very expensive, and very SLOW production rates (we need FAST replacements, and soon).

    Total surplus storage is not significant except to day traders. Total surplus storage available in the world amounts to only a few days of consumption. As an analogy, don’t confuse one day’s weather for an indicator of climate. The current short-term surplus is mostly in preparation for winter, plus the market noise due to watershed currency and economic events of late. It can come and go in a week. Oil analysts are continually surprised by significant “surprise rises” and “surprise drops” in oil storage levels. Then all the investors trip over themselves and each other trying to readjust to the revelations! Same old story over and over again.

    But go ahead and relax if you like. It doesn’t matter to me what you believe, but I don’t mind presenting the facts and logic in a forum such as this — why not? And don’t complain if you’re caught off guard. At least you’ll be in Volt, something we can agree on is a good thing.

    Loboc:
    “Conventional” oil production is drilling into a pocket of oil easily, correct? Non-conventional oil reserves such as shale or drilling under water are now estimated to be much higher than earlier predictions.Supply/demand forces did not cause the prices to peak in 2008. Speculation on oil futures caused this anomaly. We are currently swimming in oil. There are no more places to store the stuff. People are leasing tankers and they’re pretty much all full. Cushing is at full capacity.Yes, I believe that the price of oil will continue to fluctuate at some rate and I also believe that oil is a limited resource (but not rare enough to affect supply in the next 50 to 150 years).
    My personal opinion aside, the reasons for getting off of an oil-based economy are inclusive of peak oil. If others want to go there, so much the better. The CO2 guys, the pollution guys, the neeks and geeks, the anti-government, the anti-war, the EV enthusiasts and other reasonable and/or fanatical people are all gelling into a force that cannot be denied.
    The first person in our online community has a Volt and is posting fantastic results. The transition off of oil-based personal transportation will be swift and decisive. GM (and Nissan and Ford and Toyota and the rest) are in for a shock!    


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    Shock Me

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:00 pm)

    Eric,

    It seems clear to me that you and Don are arguing over different numbers. Your number is for gasoline and Don’s is for an electric vehicle with the a DOE multiplier for for vehicles that aren’t using gasoline.

    What I need to know from you is how your number is determined. We know that even with a poor conversion rate to mechanical gasoline is a wonderfully dense fuel. Does your number come after the conversion has taken place or is it something like a theoretical value?

    BTW calling people names isn’t a particularly effective strategy if your goal is to convince others.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:02 pm)

    Why isn’t the Ampera being manufactured by Opel in Europe for European customers? Is it the cost of setting up a new assembly line? I can understand the manufacturing efficiency of making all Volt/Ampera cars in one U.S. facility initially, but I would think that eventually GM would want to build an Opel car for Europeans in Europe. I assume it is only a matter of time before the Ampera is built in Europe, after GM gets Opel’s costs under control.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:11 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:17 pm)

    sparks: The oil price speculation was only possible because supply was unable to grow with demand.

    I personally didn’t see anybody waiting in lines, or rationing, or any other evidence that supply was insufficient in 2008. I did, however, experience those issues in 1973.

    As I was saying, the cause and effect don’t matter. People are mad as hell and they’re not going to take it anymore.

    “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”. This is something tangible that people can see, understand and get excited about!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:18 pm)

    jscott1:
    The dollar aday the charging station generates is not going to comeanywhere near the maintenance cost of that charging station.I thought about it as abusiness case, but it doesn’t make sense.I would muchratherinstall an ATM that generates$2per transaction, not per day.The only way that charging station will exist is ifthe government pays for (throughtaxes) ormadates companiesto do it and weall pay forit through higher prices.Either way it becomesanothersubsidylike the railroads in theUS, that costs a lot of money thathardly anyone uses.And then we wonder why the economy is in the toilet and the debt isat $13 trillion.    

    At the hieght of the petroleum spike in 2008, we were paying c$28 billion a month for foreign oil. By the government accelerating the use of charging stations and use of EV’s, a substantial part of that cost will be far less than the cost of installing the charging stations. The revenues generated from such a government policy is well warranted considering the huge flow of cash out of the U.S. to foreign countries. By expanding charging infrastructure, one company in the U.S. that would benefit is GE. As can be seen by the article of the day, GE is willing to invest in EV technology with the realization that it will benefit them as well as our country. It is evident to me that this policy will create jobs in greater numbers in the near future than has been apparent to date. As for railroads, a large percentage of produce is moved around this country by railroads which are far more efficient than truck fleets.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:31 pm)

    Unni: A BAS+ should be even able to take it to 50+.

    BAS won’t affect highway MPG much if at all. It could, however, bring that 28mpg city up to mid 30′s. That would put the Cruze pretty close to the Insight, Fushion, and best the Camry hybrids.

    Too bad they aren’t bringing the hatchback version to the US. I would seriously consider that as an option to replace one of my Vibes. The Volt or Model S or like will be a replacement for the other.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:33 pm)

    I just cracked myself up, I was thinking back 100 years and relating these posts about gas vs electricity and substituting the words alfalfa and petrol.
    I am imagining siting outside the town market and a cowboy saying, “heck alfalfa for my horse grows all over the place so I can feed him darn near anywhere”
    And then the educated car owner is saying, “Well you see petrol has about 17000 BTU per pound and Alfalfa only has about 8000, so that is why the automobile is better”
    I know myself and I could keep on imagining this current discussion and the similarities between horses and horseless carriages. Yes I am cracking myself up for longer than is appropriate for this post.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:55 pm)

    US suppliers had deeper pockets and richer consumers, and hence won the bidding wars. Fuel shortages and electricity black-outs were rampant in emerging economies, and still are to a great extent. Then the global recession temporarily reduced oil demand, allowing the price to drop.

    Now we (and our dollar) are weakening and emerging economies are growing stronger. The IEA can no longer ignore this. Hence, they now see today as a turning point, with the US and Europe and all OECD nations on a relentless decline in energy consumption from today forward, and the rest of the world, especially China/India, on a relentless climb in energy consumption from today forward. Never before have we lost this “tug-of-war,” and unfortunately our entire system is based on growth. This is a complete break with the past.

    But I like the quote you chose for your summation:

    “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”. This is something tangible that people can see, understand and get excited about!

    We can agree to disagree on the former, and agree to agree on the latter!

    Loboc:
    I personally didn’t see anybody waiting in lines, or rationing, or any other evidence that supply was insufficient in 2008. I did, however, experience those issues in 1973.As I was saying, the cause and effect don’t matter. People are mad as hell and they’re not going to take it anymore.“Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”. This is something tangible that people can see, understand and get excited about!    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:55 pm)

    koz,

    koz: BAS won’t affect highway MPG much if at all.

    As GM’s previous presentation material (ref -autoblog ) , it should improve the highway also. If you look at the below graph, There is electric power assist on higher speeds also.

    http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/02/x08pt_ar008-1280.jpg

    The City mpg should be taken to around 50 mpg due to
    1) Only electric only mode on zero to some speed.
    2) Electric assist on low speeds
    3) regenerative breaking and start-stop support.

    so 50 mpg is a good expectation ( 50 city – 50 highway – like a 50-50 deal ).

    x08pt_ar008-1280.jpg


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (5:56 pm)

    I foresee an aftermarket opportunity: a rear window-mounted dynamic MPG readout easily visible to the car behind you. “384 MPG” would certainly make others take note!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:11 pm)

    Unni: koz, koz: BAS won’t affect highway MPG much if at all. As GM’s previous presentation material (ref -autoblog ) , it should improve the highway also. If you look at the below graph, There is electric power assist on higher speeds also.http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/02/x08pt_ar008-1280.jpgThe City mpg should be taken to around 50 mpg due to1) Only electric only mode on zero to some speed.2) Electric assist on low speeds3) regenerative breaking and start-stop support.so 50 mpg is a good expectation ( 50 city – 50 highway – like a 50-50 deal ).   (Quote)  (Reply)

    That is a colorful chart but doesn’t realy accurately show how BAS will affect highway economy. The issue issue is with the duration of the peaked upslope. That would be a short duration affect. Sustained highway speeds don’t allow much capturing of electricity to have it available to assist unless they cycle the engine indepently from road power demands. With the losses associated with doing this and the already reasonable ICE efficiency at highway outputs, I don’t see this being a benefit. This is why you see lower or very similar highway to city numbers on hybrids. They help via regenerative braking and downsizing the engine. In order for a BAS Cruze to aid in highway MPG, they would need to downsize the engine more in conjunction with adding BAS.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:13 pm)

    There are numerous investors and companies in the good-ole-USA that make money off of the current petroleum economy and UNTIL that becomes an unprofitable venture will influence the market as much as possible to maintain status quo. It took quite so time to build the petro-dollar economy and there are too many politicians, government officials and lobbyists standing in the way of EV change (in the short-term). You hear it in the press “The market is not ready for EV”.

    LRGVProVolt:
    At the hieght of the petroleum spike in 2008, we were paying c$28 billion a month for foreign oil. By the government accelerating the use of charging stations and use of EV’s, a substantial part of that cost will be far less than the cost of installing the charging stations. The revenues generated from such a government policy is well warranted considering the huge flow of cash out of the U.S. to foreign countries. By expanding charging infrastructure, one company in the U.S. that would benefit is GE. As can be seen by the article of the day, GE is willing to invest in EV technology with the realization that it will benefit them as well as our country. It is evident to me that this policy will create jobs in greater numbers in the near future than has been apparent to date. As for railroads, a large percentage of produce is movedaround this country by railroads which are far more efficient than truck fleets.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:19 pm)

    To all the EricLG’s who try and link a Volt purchase to a power plant- your argument is LAME!!! Here’s why-

    There are very few out there, for at least the next few years, who will not be buying the Volt for ideological reasons. Ideology is rarely satisfied with one action. In reality, once the first step is taken, subsequent steps become much easier.

    I believe that five years from now, we will find solar photovoltaic (or other renewable energy source) adoption from Volt owners is AT LEAST QUADRUPLE that of the general population. Speaking as someone who went the solar route first, I find that, like the old Lay’s potato chip commercial, ‘you can’t eat just one.’ I predict that once you plug your Volt into the wall when you get it home, you will start looking at your power meter (and your power consumption) like you NEVER have before. Not everyone reading this will become a PV owner, but using the status quo energy production equation, with respect to the Volt demographic, is freakin’ idiotic.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:37 pm)

    Loboc: I personally didn’t see anybody waiting in lines, or rationing, or any other evidence that supply was insufficient in 2008. I did, however, experience those issues in 1973.As I was saying, the cause and effect don’t matter. People are mad as hell and they’re not going to take it anymore.“Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”. This is something tangible that people can see, understand and get excited about!  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Don’t kid yourself. Price ultimately follows demand/supply, like all markets. Yes, traders can influence a commodity market but not long term and nobody risks that kind of money without a fundamental reason.

    http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/ipsr/t24.xls

    Table 2.4 World Petroleum (Oil) Demand, 2006-2010 (Million Barrels per Day)
    2006:85.26 2007:86.29 2008:85.78 1stQtr2009:83.61 2ndQtr2009:84.0 3rdQtr2009:84.54 4thQtr2009:85.16 2009:84.34 1stQtr2010:85.42 2ndQtr2010:86.36

    There was a lot of $ poured into drilling, exploration, and re-starting older wells from 2006-early 2008. We likely have slightly higher worlwide capacity now but not by much. These incremental gains are very difficult and costly. Minimizing supply issues is very dangerous (and unsupported from everything tangible I have seen or heard), but thankfully not so much if we are all supporting Volts and the like.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:45 pm)

    john1701a:
    Speaking of omissions… where’s the PHV model?    

    I think the main reason he didn’t mention it is because the PHV you speak of is only a concept and the Volt is reality.

    The mileage for the Cruze is amazing. My Volt just can’t be built fast enough…


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (6:51 pm)

    freetimecreations: I just cracked myself up, I was thinking back 100 years and relating these posts about gas vs electricity and substituting the words alfalfa and petrol.I am imagining siting outside the town market and a cowboy saying, “heck alfalfa for my horse grows all over the place so I can feed him darn near anywhere”And then the educated car owner is saying, “Well you see petrol has about 17000 BTU per pound and Alfalfa only has about 8000, so that is why the automobile is better”I know myself and I could keep on imagining this current discussion and the similarities between horses and horseless carriages. Yes I am cracking myself up for longer than is appropriate for this post.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    The concept of gaining wisdom by reviewing the past is always food for thought.

    Anyone remember the speech given by Danny DeVito in ‘Other People’s Money’? Right after beloved Gregory Peck gives his heart tugging speech about old values, Danny squashes him with a speech about the last maker of buggy whips. He stated that he believed that the last manufacturer of these whips probably made the best ever made. But the point was obvious to our present viewer- ‘practical’ wins out over ‘quaint’ as technology moves forward.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:03 pm)

    GXT: Nice trick.Present a subset of the hybrids in one chart… include only the large ones and omit all the ones that get better fuel economy (often significantly better…e.g. >80% better city fuel economy for the Prius, >40% for the Civic and Insight hybrids).Then omit all hybrids from the “segment competitors” chart.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    “trick” so what should be call putting a $20,000 tariff on the Cruze and the Volt and any car we try to sell in Japan Germany Korea etc… I call it total BS.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:03 pm)

    Sheesh, I take a nap and the site turns into *The Lord of the Flies*. Name-calling rarely (if ever) helps.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:04 pm)

    EricLG,
    I am not sensitive to offenders and would like ask not to repeat opinions many times in order saving time. Your arguments on the cost per mile are good and might be true in certain cases and this root of debate. The problem with your calculation that there is no firm figure for CD mode and PRIUS will never achiev 70 MPG. $0.20 power price is rather high as well. Probably Lyle can get twice let for night charge. Fuel cost inflation is not taken into account. When you add everything Prius looks quite attractive.

    Still CD mode data contradicting. During test drive Lyle achieved 50 miles range easely and now hardly 36 on fully charged batteries. It is 30% less. Nobody has idea on charging losses. This figure is battery feature and it’s impossible to make estimations without testing. Let’s wait for real data.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:10 pm)

    Hodginator: I think the main reason he didn’t mention it is because the PHV you speak of is only a concept and the Volt is reality.

    Consumers are driving both, in real-world conditions on streets with regular traffic.

    There’s simply no excuse anymore.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:14 pm)

    Darpa,

    Darpa: There are numerous investors and companies in the good-ole-USA that make money off of the current petroleum economy and UNTIL that becomes an unprofitable venture will influence the market as much as possible to maintain status quo.It took quite so time to build the petro-dollar economy and there are too many politicians, government officials and lobbyists standing in the way of EV change (in the short-term).You hear it in the press “The market is not ready for EV”.
        

    Your post sounds similar to 100+ years ago with the alfalfa economy, and how the farmers will maintain status quo. You hear it from the cowboys “The market is not ready for the HC (horseless carriage).”


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:15 pm)

    Hi Lyle,

    I know you’ve only had the Volt for a couple days – but at some point, after you’ve gotten a bit more prolific in your use of regen ( hills – long straight glides until a stopllight, etc. ) could you fill us in on how that’s working for you?

    I know regen is different in a Prius as I am great in hilly Washington State at filling up my NIMH battery pack with regen – only to realize the gas engine is CONSTANTLY chugging on and off due to accelerator demand and load. It seems to me regen is quite a lot more significant to pure EV range with Volt since you’re putting back energy into the pack while still moving on pure electric power ( in CD mode ).

    In L mode – you have more regen, but also it slows the Volt down much faster than regen does in my Toyota, as I noticed on my 10 minute Volt drive. Makes me very curious how “gliding” works then in Volt, and if primarily downhills is where you can recapture significant energy. Perhaps D, rather than L would suffice for better gliding whereas L mode for using less brake for stops and saving a great deal of wear on the brake pads.

    Also, do you notice much of a significant decrease in efficiency or mileage with the whole family on board ( or all 4 seats occupied )?

    Thanks huge for all the updates!

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:31 pm)

    Darpa: There are numerous investors and companies in the good-ole-USA that make money off of the current petroleum economy and UNTIL that becomes an unprofitable venture will influence the market as much as possible to maintain status quo.It took quite so time to build the petro-dollar economy and there are too many politicians, government officials and lobbyists standing in the way of EV change (in the short-term).You hear it in the press “The market is not ready for EV”.
        

    Lost original reply so here goes again.

    With huge populations, like countries such as China, and India have, who continue to grow economically while America wallows with slow recovery from the recession, you should realize that there isn’t enough petroleum to support our current method of transportation across the planet.

    All those investors you talk about had best jump on the green bandwagon while they can. If we continue relying on petroleum for transportation, not many new jobs will be created to put our labor force back to work, whereas the new green economy will! As I said before, we are seeing it happen before our eyes; the rate of new job creation together with recovery of existing segments of the economy will accelerate with time. The American creativity will be unleashed as exemplary as the General Motors Volt. And not to mention all the industries that support the creation of this EREV. There is a lot happening with the Volt. It’s more than a car. It brings together in one product so many industries like never before.

    It has and will impact on many different industries. All those investors that you talk about will have plenty of opportunities to invest wisely while still holding their oil stocks which will continue to be profitable even in an electric economy.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (7:49 pm)

    “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”

    Does this mean that if I drive my Volt 100,000 miles, and only use 1 gallon of gas during that time, that I got 100,000 mpg?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:00 pm)

    Ray Maas: “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”Does this mean that if I drive my Volt 100,000 miles, and only use 1 gallon of gas during that time, that I got 100,000 mpg?    

    If that were to happen, you would get 100,000 MPGe. But it is not likely that that would happen since the Volt would turn on the ICE periodically to use up what gasoline you have in your tank so it won’t go stale, and to lubricate engine parts, etc. You will likely use more gasoline than one gallon over 100,000 miles.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:10 pm)

    Ray Maas: “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”Does this mean that if I drive my Volt 100,000 miles, and only use 1 gallon of gas during that time, that I got 100,000 mpg?  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Well…you drove 100,000 miles and used 1 gallon of gas, so yes that is exactly what it means. Why is this bothersome? Is your primary concern reducing KWH usage instead of reducing gasoline consumption? If it floats your boat, then add the grid kwh consumed to your mental picture of consumption.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:22 pm)

    Ray Maas: “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”Does this mean that if I drive my Volt 100,000 miles, and only use 1 gallon of gas during that time, that I got 100,000 mpg?    

    Yes, but you better get stepping. Assuming that you use 120V and have two charge cycles per 24 hour day, it’ll take 3.42457534246 years to do it. No, wait…. then you’d STILL have that lousy gallon of gas in there….LRGVProVolt did mention the maintenance gas. That’d *probably* amount to a gallon in 3 years…. You get the idea. (g)

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (8:57 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:07 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:11 pm)

    EricLG: …the energy content of one gallon of petrol is about 35 kwh.

    day 1 > 30 miles – no gas + recharge 25 miles – no gas

    day 2 > 33 miles – no gas

    day 3 > 27 miles – no gas + recharge 29 miles – no gas

    day 4 > 32 miles – no gas

    See where I’m going with this? The energy content of one gallon doesn’t apply when you don’t need any gas to get from point A to point B.

    NPNS


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:14 pm)

    Ray Maas, post #234:

    “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”

    Does this mean that if I drive my Volt 100,000 miles, and only use 1 gallon of gas during that time, that I got 100,000 mpg?

    After months of deliberately avoiding this debate, I’ve decided I need to “wade into this cesspool of alligators”. Why? Because the time is right. And the issue is too important to leave unresolved. And the statement Lyle made at the end of today’s post, emphasized & quoted again & again above is extremely important —AS WELL AS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! But before getting into it, I want to invite those willing to do so to really THINK about it. And to urge those whose minds are already made up that I’m wrong, to try to RE-THINK it.

    The answer to the question quoted above is YES, YOU GOT 100,000 MPG!!! But as with most everything else in life, more needs to be said. For example, one poster above refers to 100 years or so ago when alfalfa was widely grown. In his example, a guy favoring changing to gas-powered carriages would be at a disadvantage, as his opponent saw it, because alfalfa was everywhere but petrol was not. But the guy arguing against the horseless carriage might have argued, “I’ll always hitch up my little wagon loaded with alfalfa and water so my horse can go even beyond his physical limit and back without relying on anyone else’s alfalfa or water.” Then his horse could go everywhere he ever needed to go —and back home again.

    Here we’re talking about an EV’s “physical limit” —its battery charge— and gas instead of alfalfa. So yes, if we keep the EV recharged as needed (like feeding/watering the horse), the EV/horse can go as far as needed. In fact for a Volt, if we recharge it when needed, IT CAN GO 100,000 MILES WITH ONLY ONE GALLON OF GAS ABOARD! Of course, we need to add its mpg rating for that gallon of gas so the driver knows whether he can get, say, 20 miles to the next gas station. …Here we are in the year 2010 still arguing about range and how to explain it. As I see it, J.D. Power’s and other studies are right when they conclude EV, EREV, PHEV adoption by the driving public in SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS is likely to be very, very slow. So what is needed is a simple, easily understood way to communicate the huge fuel savings —and IMHO that’s most quickly and easily done by using a number (and units) that are immediately recognizable by everyone: e,g., “384 MPG”, so they really get the message. Yes, the EPA label should include the Volt’s mpg in CS mode and its range in EV/CD mode. But including numbers like miles/kWH, miles/Joule, while technically correct, will confuse most people and potentially slow the adoption of EVs! This is my opinion and I’m sure it’s the opinion of GM and the EPA, so let’s support it!!!

    One more thing. Some have said that including any of the times the Volt’s engine is not running in a MPG calculation should not be done. I’ve borrowed the graph below (ignor it’s caption) to illustrate how unreasonable that would be…
    x08pt_ar008-1280.jpg

    Note that this chart applies to a simple (BAS) hybrid; is it reasonable to calculate the car’s MPG using ONLY the red lines on the chart when the engine is running? NO! The same reasoning applies to the idea of quoting a MPG figure for the Volt only when its engine is running —it’s crazy to do so!

    [My apologies for the length of this post ---I had no time to write a shorter one, AND IT'S VITALLY IMPORTANT TO THE SUCCESS OF THE VOLT AND MANY OTHER FUTURE PLUG-INS!!!]


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:24 pm)

    PS to my post #241: I’ve driven a Volt on two occasions. For both, the driver’s display showed the average MPG. Does anyone believe GM hasn’t carefully thought this all through to be sure they won’t suffer ridicule or outright condemnation by the press or the public? I’ve read every one of many media & non-media test drives writeups I can find —not ONE of them criticizes the avg MPG shown on the driver’s display!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (9:38 pm)

    PS to Eric LG or anyone else who may care: I have an undergrad degree in Electrical Engineering as well as a graduate degree in Astrophysics, both from highly-ranked US technical universities. More important, I have several decades of experience in the US space program, including an extended period as a Chief Scientist.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:05 pm)

    EricLG: if I can put up PV …I will buy an EV, and if I cannot, I won’t.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Huh? What kind of reasoning is this?? Well folks, this confirms EricLG is NOT a troll. Trolls do things to provoke. This statement shows a lapse of reason instead.

    Eric, you definitely do NOT think like an engineer. You are so hung up on centralized utility emissions that you miss the advantage of the aggregate energy source. For the same reason a freight train is more efficient (and less polluting) per ton than a fleet of trucks, your logic makes no sense at all. One could argue this from SOOO many points (domestic power production vs imported fuel), the removal of need for dirty petroleum refining, removal of an entire infrastructure that wastefully feeds itself (all those fuel trucks heading out to fill up gas stations so we can drive to them and fill up ourselves), etc, etc.

    Using an EV is good for the planet, PERIOD! It sounds like you are saying, ‘If I can only do ONE good thing, than I won’t do ANY!’ (which would be rather childish indeed) I thought you just disliked the Volt from being a Toyota devotee, when you have missed the WHOLE FREAKIN EV MESSAGE ENTIRELY!!

    Folks, please reread EricLGs comment and digest it before you write pages and pages to try and counter him anymore. He is NOT the Volt hater you thought he was; he needs a different approach.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:08 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:10 pm)

    Ray Maas, post #234:

    “Thus for my first two days in total I drove 122.8 miles using .32 gallons of gas, or 384 MPG.”

    Does this mean that if I drive my Volt 100,000 miles, and only use 1 gallon of gas during that time, that I got 100,000 mpg?

    My only point was that it is utterly meaningless and misleading to make statements like “My volt gets 384 mpg”. Without knowing how many kilowatts of electricity you used to drive those 122.8 miles, you cannot begin to make a comparison to an ICE-powered vehicle. And don’t forget, a significant portion of the price of a Volt is the battery pack. You should probably average about $100 a month over the life of the car into any MPG comparison for that, if you’re being totally honest.

    Having said this, I know there are other reasons (environmental, political, financial) for owning a Volt, and I would LOVE to have one. But since my job was eliminated a couple of years ago, it looks like, for the near future anyway, I’m going to have to settle for finding an economical way to convert my Escape hybrid into a PHEV.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:18 pm)

    Ray Maas: My only point was that it is utterly meaningless and misleading to make statements like “My volt gets 384 mpg”. Without knowing how many kilowatts of electricity you used to drive those 122.8 miles, you cannot begin to make a comparison to an ICE-powered vehicle.

    Sorry Ray, you’re mistaken —please read my posts #241 & 242 above to see why I so strongly disagree. Telling the average person “how many kilowatts were needed to drive those 122.8 miles” will only confuse him. I wish you well in converting your Escape hybrid into a PHEV!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:42 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:50 pm)

    nasaman: “I’ll always hitch up my little wagon loaded with alfalfa and water so my horse can go even beyond his physical limit and back without relying on anyone else’s alfalfa or water.”

    I agree that 384 MPG is most easily understood by the masses. However, in the example above – go with oats.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:51 pm)

    tom w: But if you can’t charge at work or if you only drive 25 miles a day then the Volt doesn’t make financial sense (buy a Leaf).

    Couple things here.

    1) What if I drive 25 miles a day to work, but also make other long trips sometimes, and I only own 1 car?

    2) If you want to make the “financial sense” argument, that’s a dead horse. There a lot of cheaper/efficient ICE cars out there that will win that war. Heck, just ride the bus, at that point.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:54 pm)

    EricLG: I think it fair to say that Lyle bought a Volt because he wanted a “domestic” manufacturer, not because a LEAF would not have suited him at least as well if not better

    Actually Lyle drove the Mini-E for $800/month first. And he had problems w/range anxiety and couldnt take the car to work sometimes.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (10:59 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:02 pm)

    nasaman: PS to Eric LG or anyone else who may care: I have an undergrad degree in Electrical Engineering as well as a graduate degree in Astrophysics, both from highly-ranked US technical universities. More important, I have several decades of experience in the US space program, including an extended period as a Chief Scientist.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    And a big “Thank You” from my family too. My father was a Captain in the USAF flying Air Rescue during the Gemini missions. His final mission was one he co-piloted to film them dropping frogmen in the water to assist the capsule after splashdown. It’s a shame that space travel is so “normal” these days that it rarely rates more than 10 seconds of coverage on the evening news. I miss those days when I was a kid… just glued to the TV watching men walk on the moon!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:03 pm)

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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:07 pm)

    this posting says a lot – and nothing – at the same time. when the government provides vehicle specifications, their purpose should not be the advancement of the commercial interests of vehicle makers; their purpose should be to provide the purchasing public with meaningful information. the statement “the volt gets 384 mpg” can lead the public to the erroneous conclusion that, if they fill up the gas tank in the volt, they will be able to drive from new york to los angeles on a single tank of gasoline. so, in this case, giving the public a 384 mpg specification would be to provide the public with incorrect information. on the other hand, you can give the 384 mpg specification accompanied by a list of disclaimers that is so long that it would make “war and peace” look like a short story. in that case, giving the public a 384 mpg specifications with disclaimers would be to provide the public with possibly correct, but meaningless information.

    nasaman:
    After months of deliberately avoiding this debate, I’ve decided I need to “wade into this cesspool of alligators”. Why? Because the time is right. And the issue is too important to leave unresolved. And the statement Lyle made at the end of today’s post, emphasized & quoted again & again above is extremely important —AS WELL AS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:14 pm)

    to answer your question: no, i do not blindly place my trust with that any manufacturer, because that manufacturer has a vested interest in advancing its own commercial interests. that’s why you want to be able to turn to (hopefully) objective third parties.

    nasaman: PS to my post #241: I’ve driven a Volt on two occasions. For both, the driver’s display showed the average MPG. Does anyone believe GM hasn’t carefully thought this all through to be sure they won’t suffer ridicule or outright condemnation by the press or the public? I’ve read every one of many media & non-media test drives writeups I can find —not ONE of them criticizes the avg MPG shown on the driver’s display!    


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:16 pm)

    EricLG, post #252: kdawg: Actually Lyle drove the Mini-E for $800/month first. And he had problems w/range anxiety and couldnt take the car to work sometimes.

    I’m missing something then. A 100 mile EV car, down to 70 miles in the winter, with plugs at home and at work 30 miles away, but “could not take the car to work?”

    I normally would not respond to you, Eric —but I’m making an exception to save Lyle the trouble. Dr Dennis has more than one office and uses more than one hospital, separated by many miles. He is sometimes called on in emergencies with very short notice. These realities of his occupation are often if not always at play in his daily professional life & sometimes demand >100 miles of travel between locations.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:30 pm)

    no comment: …giving the public a 384 mpg specifications with disclaimers would be to provide the public with possibly correct, but meaningless information.

    I agree. And the EPA always tests all vehicles to a standardized procedure in which only a portion of the test drive will be in EV/CD mode and the remainder in ER/CS mode. (An early version of this EPA procedure is what yielded the controversial 230MPG result last year and they are trying to avoid a similar controversy when finalizing the procedure.) The EPA stickers will have NO disclaimers; they WILL have additional information to allow a consumer to intelligently compare the various EVs/EREV’s/PHEVs, as well as conventional cars, in terms of overall operating costs.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:31 pm)

    nasaman: My apologies for the length of this post —I had no time to write a shorter one

    LOL.. this statement seems counter-intuitive.
    I liked the post.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:37 pm)

    Ray Maas: And don’t forget, a significant portion of the price of a Volt is the battery pack. You should probably average about $100 a month over the life of the car into any MPG comparison for that, if you’re being totally honest.

    But what if i bought a Volt instead of $78,000 Lexus? Does that mean I could subtract $100 month?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:38 pm)

    no comment: to answer your question: no, i do not blindly place my trust with that any manufacturer, because that manufacturer has a vested interest in advancing its own commercial interests. that’s why you want to be able to turn to (hopefully) objective third parties.

    nasaman: PS to my post #241: I’ve driven a Volt on two occasions. For both, the driver’s display showed the average MPG. Does anyone believe GM hasn’t carefully thought this all through to be sure they won’t suffer ridicule or outright condemnation by the press or the public? I’ve read every one of many media & non-media test drives writeups I can find —not ONE of them criticizes the avg MPG shown on the driver’s display!

    So in what part of my statement above, “I’ve read every one of many media & non-media test drive writeups I can find —not ONE of them criticizes the avg MPG shown on the driver’s display!” are you unable to find my reference to “objective third parties”?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:42 pm)

    That’s an brave mission statement from EG. I can understand that he has had to do this yet again and has complied, yet again. But I certainly don’t respect the Prius purchase above all other choices in the name of national security. A Prius purchase is considerably more of a symbolic use of $25k than is effective in that regard. Although Japan is an ally more so than most oil producing countries are, it now has $20k of EG’s money that otherwise would have been spent in this country. In purchasing a petroleum only vehicle above an EV variant, Eric is simply whitewashing his cry for reduced oil imports.
    Furthermore, in saying that environmental concerns are of a secondary matter for where he lives, his entire argument for the day goes into the category of “so what” when proven wrong.

    By continuing to post here he is mocking us rather than presenting arguments to be debated.

    What a snob.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:44 pm)

    EricLG: So all in all, isolated purchase of an expensive EV is not at the top of my to-do list. As a rational person

    Eric is pretty much a “financial sense” debater. I think money reigns in his world (he did feel the need to tell us all he makes $250K/year.. LOL) . Then he gets wrapped up in the efficiency gambit sometimes.

    Eric – i’ve asked u this before, if you won a free car (free in every sense of the matter) which car would you take. Hypothetically trying to eliminate the “financial sense” debate, and I think somehow you still rationalized a Prius. I guess I dont really understand what your points are. What would be the peferct scenario for you regarding a car? Oil use is bad, but if there’s a car that uses less oil, then it is also bad. I have a hard time following your “rational” most of the time.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:46 pm)

    EricLG: I’m missing something then. A 100 mile EV car, down to 70 miles in the winter, with plugs at home and at work 30 miles away, but “could not take the car to work?”

    Make that as low as 40miles in the winter, and also add in forgetting to plug in at night.


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:50 pm)

    EricLG: Rent for infrequent long trips (or take a train like I do), or buy a Prius for frequent long trips.

    How do I rent a car at 2am? What if I dont want to hassel w/renting a car. What if I can’t afford renting a car? What if I dont live near a train? How do I get to the train? How do I get to the rental car company?

    If I buy a Prius that defeats the point I said where I only one 1 car. Why would I want to spend another $30K on a car?


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    Nov 12th, 2010 (11:51 pm)

    kdawg: Ray Maas: And don’t forget, a significant portion of the price of a Volt is the battery pack. You should probably average about $100 a month over the life of the car into any MPG comparison for that, if you’re being totally honest.

    But what if i bought a Volt instead of $78,000 Lexus? Does that mean I could subtract $100 month?

    Maybe, if you think your Lexus is in the same class as a subcompact Chevy. I was thinking more of a comparison to, say, a Chevy Cruze or something similar.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:00 am)

    Yes you are quite correct, using oats would benefit your per mile calculations. Oats have a higher BTUs per pound, around 8000 vs alfalfa of around 7000.

    However the positive aspects:
    !. Being able to fit more oats in your hay cart as opposed to alfalfa or grass.
    2. Higher BTU rating per pound
    May be offset by the negatives
    1. Your horse getting sick.
    2. To many calories and having an overweight horse
    3. Laminitis from too many carbohydrates
    This previous information according to recent data from SLAV (Society of Large Animal Veterinarians)
    So without doing an extensive cost analysis for the price of oats in rural areas vs urban areas taking into account the different weights of hauling alfalfa or oats in your cart…..Ah never mind I am just going to drive my horse, I mean ride my car. See ya.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:05 am)

    Ray Maas: Maybe, if you think your Lexus is in the same class as a subcompact Chevy. I was thinking more of a comparison to, say, a Chevy Cruze or something similar.

    “Subcompact” what?

    Also “life of the car” needs to be defined. If I drive my Volt 15 years, at $100/month that would be $18,000 for the battery pack. It would also assume the pack was then worthless.

    All I can say, is if you’re financially strapped, and still want an EV, go for the lease then. $350/mo and saving about $100/mo in gasoline, is your best bet. Otherwise just buy a cheap/efficient ICE (or milk you current car as long as you can until greener days).


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:25 am)

    Notice that the EPA, in addition to their other innaccuracies WRT Volt “MPG,” failed
    to realize that many folks will have an opportunity to recharge or at least partially recharge their Volts at their place of work.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:29 am)

    EricLG: [yada yada]…And therein lies my position on EVs and PV: if I cannot run an EV cleanly, I prefer to spend my ‘green’ dollars elsewhere. I live in an area that is almost entirely coal, but even if I knew the EV was NG fuel-sourced, I would spend my money on decreasing NG use in my house first, because the yield in NG drop/$ is better…[yada yada]…So all in all, isolated purchase of an expensive EV is not at the top of my to-do list.   (Quote)  (Reply)

    This discussion is philosophically all over the map. It makes me think of two things-
    1) To choose not to choose is to make a choice and
    2) Pittsburgh beat Dallas and Dallas beat Cleveland, so how can Cleveland beat Pittsburgh?

    You need to put more practicality in your reasoning and less philosophy, because you end up running over yourself in YOUR OWN CAR.

    You are so smug (or intransigent) in your Prius purchase that the only thing you can see replacing your current car with is another Prius, that is unless you can install PV, otherwise you’ll take the bus. Huh, what did he say? Yeah, my analysis of your statements comes across as strange as what you wrote in the first place.

    You appear to be more defined by what you are AGAINST than what you are FOR. You’ve got a million chips on your shoulder. You summarize that this is about prioritizing your green purchases, yet you state numerous complaints before you actually get to this conclusion. Since you are a physician, I would recommend prescribing yourself some happy pills.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:34 am)

    EricLG: You misunderstand the argument. DonC says that if the Volt consumes .350 kwh in one mile in CD mode, it has an MPGe of 234.2, while I say, and the EPA sticker says, 100 MPGe.

    Eric, I’m convinced you have a PhD in revisionist history. LOL

    Our bet had nothing to do with what the sticker says. The bet was only with respect to what I said, and I didn’t say anything about a sticker. I made sure of this because I knew you would change the subject and start talking about something, anything, other than what we had actually bet on. To refresh your recollection, you bet I was completely wrong when I said:

    While using well to wheel calculations is screwy at the consumer level, the EPA does use them for CAFE purposes. What our friend Eric has conveniently left out — he of the “use only those numbers that make your point” tribe — is that, when looking at a vehicle being powered by electricity, after all the calculations are finished, a gallon of gasoline equivalent contains 82 kWh of energy (actually 82,049 Wh/gal but why be picky).

    You want to point out where I’m talking about stickers? I’m talking about MPGe for CAFE purposes. The sticker is an entirely different animal. In fact you specified that what we were betting on (1) whether for CAFE the EPA uses a well to wheel calculation; and (2) whether for this purpose the energy equivalence of a gallon of gasoline is 82 kWh. You lost the bet, so I’m shocked, absolutely shocked, that you’re still posting!


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:51 am)

    nasaman: These realities of his occupation are often if not always at play in his daily professional life & sometimes demand >100 miles of travel between locations.

    kdawg: Make that as low as 40miles in the winter, and also add in forgetting to plug in at night.  

    It really doesn’t matter if you could use a BEV with a 100 mile range. The issue is more whether you’re comfortable with the range limitation. Some people are willing to pay more in order to worry less. Some people, fewer but they’re out there, will love the challenge a 100 mile limitation provides. Those folk will probably be disappointed if they drive into their garage with 10 miles of range left!

    It’s like investing. Any number of programs will work, you just need to understand your psychological makeup and get what you’re comfortable with.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:53 am)

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:55 am)

    Ray Maas: Maybe, if you think your Lexus is in the same class as a subcompact Chevy. I was thinking more of a comparison to, say, a Chevy Cruze or something similar.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    The Cruze is not a subcompact. The Volt is not a Cruze. You should read the numerous test reviews or better yet test drive the Volt yourself if you can make it to one of their tour events. I trust you will come away with a different perspective. Remember, the Traverse, Equinox, and Corvette are Chevy’s too. The Volt is closer to an A4, TL, 320i, or IS than it is to a Cobalt, Civic, or Corolla.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:00 am)

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:10 am)

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:12 am)

    /night all

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:13 am)

    Dang. 275 posts (and 3,838 page views) mostly to or from EricLG.

    Good Job Eric! You have single-handedly paid for the site today!

    /crap. I just did it too.
    //Oh, wait! That’s a good thing!


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:24 am)

    This is really good news. Now its the various US government departments and state governments turn to step up. And all those electical utility companies.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:36 am)

    tom w: I remember when Lyle recently drove a Volt in MIchigan like 19 miles and was on pace for well over 50 miles on the charge. Is his new average range of 36 miles per charge a combination of colder weather and he’s just intentionally pushing it at 70+mph instead of milking his range by driving 55mph?

    If you can make it to work and back without burning a drop of gas, you can flog it guilt free!


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:41 am)

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:43 am)

    EricLG: : Let me paraphrase the common refrain: No Prius because it lacks performance/is ugly/is not GM, but everybody should buy a Volt because it saves oil.

    That’s said more as a Prius apologist that anything else.

    EricLG:
    Since I accept (and have been arguing for the better part of a decade) that America’s foreign oil consumption and addiction is a grave national security and economic risk, I bought a Prius 6 years ago go halve my fuel consumption. What fraction of the “oil hawks” on this forum can say the same ?

    More than you think.

    EricLG:
    Starting from the bottom, I have noticed I get called a snob by hypocrites.

    Yet, when presented with a car that outperforms the Toyota hybrid system, you choose to promote the lesser system.

    and there’s more…

    EricLG:
    I live in an area that is almost entirely coal,…

    then move.

    You’ve wasted a lot of energy on this site, and on todays’ thread in particular, and
    I can’t think of any reason why.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:45 am)

    “The Volt is closer to an A4, TL, 320i, or IS”

    Thanks for that bit of humour. For a moment there you had me thinking you were serious.

    koz:
    The Cruze is not a subcompact. The Volt is not a Cruze. You should read the numerous test reviews or better yet test drive the Volt yourself if you can make it to one of their tour events. I trust you will come away with a different perspective. Remember, the Traverse, Equinox, and Corvette are Chevy’s too. The Volt is closer to an A4, TL, 320i, or IS than it is to a Cobalt, Civic, or Corolla.    


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:49 am)

    Buying an old Prizm and installing Solar panels with the $20k saved in not buying a Prius seems like an emminently rational decision for one who believes grid energy is so incredably dirty. Of course, if everyone followed this logic there would probably be no hybrids, no Volts, no Leafs, no Teslas, no Fiskers, etc.

    Progress always starts somewhere. For the Prius, it started with what today would be considered a sub-par hybrid and got its legs with iterative development and subsidies. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander and Voltec is looking like it will follow a similar path.

    For those that actually care about the facts of electricity production in the US, coal went from 53.4% of the “Electric Power Sector” in 2000 to 45.9% in 2009. Not only is coal’s percentage shrinking, but the CO2/BTU of coal produced is also shrinking as the aggregate fleet gets cleaner (or prhaps I should say less bad). http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/cf_tables/steotables.cfm?tableNumber=22&loadAction=Apply+Changes&periodType=Annual&startYear=2000&endYear=2011&startMonthChanged=false&startQuarterChanged=false&endMonthChanged=false&endQuarterChanged=false&noScroll=false

    The first EVs will be the worst EVs in many ways and yet they are still pretty good even in their infancy. Every single aspect of their situation is poised for significant improvement and this includes grid emmissions and fuel mix.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (1:52 am)

    Eric, please don’t generalize my quote by saying that hypocrites are calling you a snob.

    I am calling you a snob.

    Now, as per post 282, you can add that I am calling you a hypocrite as well.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (2:20 am)

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (2:31 am)

    Sorry for getting side tracked with the nonsense. And yes, Eric, goody for you, you love your Prius, it’s a good car.

    I originally posted today for the Cruze. It’s a refreshingly simple car. A turbocharged gas engine mounted parallel to the driveshafts with a manual tranny. A bunch of airbags and the best fuel economy your going to find without going hybrid all for about $18k.
    Chevy really has something good to brag about in the showroom, besides the Volt!


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (2:46 am)

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (3:00 am)

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (3:04 am)

    Jeremy k,

    If I buy a VOLT and drive it for 12,000 miles per year, I want to know how many gallons or liters of gasoline I will have to buy.

    When I calculate that annual mileage figure, that is the real gasoline fuel economy and mileage. The VOLT will make that into several hundred miles per gallon for the average driver.

    EVery VOLT on the road will use about one tenth of the so-called precious liquid fossil that we have sought a substitute for forty years. An auto fleet composed of EREVS will use less than one tenth of the fuel of the present fleet.

    The USA uses about 19 million barrels/day for alluses including transport fuel, of which about 5 million comes from domestic sources. To not have to use anybody else’s oil but our own we need to increase mileage by 4 times but VOLTS reduce use by by 10 times. The substitute is electricity and we can make that from many many sources. So the solution has been found. All that is left to do is to propagate more VOLTS or their equivalents.

    Incidently, we now manufacture and make synthetic fossil to meet almost 15% of today’s demand. To use no OIL at all for cars we would need to reduce by 7 times. VOLTS already reduce by more than 10 times. So the supply of corn ethanol is already suffcient to supply all the auto fleet, IF they were VOLTs or their equivalents.

    Problem solved. Now all there is left is the propagation mopup.

    Next problem, Please.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (3:20 am)

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (5:35 am)

    EricLG:
    Exactly. And since the multiplier has nothing to do with actual energy content, WTW efficiency, or fuel consumption costs, I keep telling DonC his number is spurious and flat out wrong. CAFE might as well add a multiplier for pink cars for all I care; it is not germane to energy consumption comparisons between vehicles.I am not sure I understand your question but here goes:I have saidthat the energy content of one gallon of petrol is about 35 kwh. Not 82 kwh as DonC posted in #104.    

    Eric,

    My question was how that 35 kWh figure was determined? Was it a mathematical conversion from Mega Joules? Was it determined by burning it or by cracking gasoline into something else? I just wondered how they figured it out.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (8:07 am)

    pjkPA: JEC: That would be a great idea! Lyle you can buy a Killawatt for about $40, but it would need to plug into a std 120V outlet. Since you have a 220V charger, I think?, then this one would not work. You could either just use a std 120V at home or use it at work. All you really need to know is how much charge goes in, and how much charge the Volt sees. What is the resolution of the Volts charge indicator? Is it only to the Kw, or tenths, or hopefully hunderdths!That would allow us to know what the real Kw-hr usage is. (Quote) (Reply)

    Kilo Watt Hour is 1000Watts for one hour. Do the math… depending on your electricity cost (8.8cents a KWH here in my part of PA) it will cost about 70cents a charge for me the last time I checked.

    Yes. But I want to know what the efficiency is of the Volt charger. If you know how much you put it and how much of the charge is actually installed, you can calculate the efficiency. This is simple math.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (8:49 am)

    crew: You’ve wasted a lot of energy on this site, and on todays’ thread in particular, and
    I can’t think of any reason why.

    Crew, DonC (et al),
    Notice that every reply directly to a troll garners yet another response from the troll etc. etc. etc. in a never-ending downward spiral into nonsense. Once this spiral starts, you pretty much know you have a troll in your forum.

    This is classic troll modus operandi. The goal of a troll is to spread FUD, interrupt normal discussion, bring discussion off topic and in general create havoc. I think we see that in action here.

    Even though some posts sound reasonable or even sound like the person needs help, it is best to not engage directly. Just vote -1 so we don’t have to plow through the detritus to get to our community goals.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (8:58 am)

    From Autotropolis link:
    “Today, the production model 2011 Chevrolet Volt can go 340 miles without a charge (it goes 40 miles on electricity alone and then bumps to a gas engine for the extra miles)”

    Sorry but I really get peeved when I see such ignorance among my colleagues. Disregarding various debates above, this reporter is spreading misleading information.
    As I read the above, she is suggesting that range is limited to 340 miles before you have to charge.
    As we all know, a simple(albeit distasteful) fill up will send you packing another 300 miles. Now range is 640 miles.
    But of course, yet another(even more unpleasant) fill up will get our long range driver to 940 miles.
    And on and on and on.

    I apologize on behalf on all my brethren and sisters–I just don’t understand why it is so hard to understand the concept, but it gives you an idea of the marketing challenges facing GM.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (9:14 am)

    bt:

    From Autotropolis link:
    “Today, the production model 2011 Chevrolet Volt can go 340 miles without a charge (it goes 40 miles on electricity alone and then bumps to a gas engine for the extra miles)”

    Sorry but I really get peeved when I see such ignorance among my colleagues. Disregarding various debates above, this reporter is spreading misleading information…

    I read that otherwise pretty good article too, bt, and swallowed hard on that same statement. Sadly, our own Ted Ellyatt (an engineer who’s followed gm-volt.com for years and has ordered a Volt) was her source. Yet the misleading statement got through. You’re right, there are major marketing challenges facing GM!


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (9:21 am)

    Shock Me: My question was how that 35 kWh figure was determined?

    No idea. In the olde, olde days it was heat content. In any case the energy content of fuel is a standardized thermodynamic quantity. DonC’s magical 82 kwh/gallon came about from a clerk multiplying by a political fudge factor, not because of any doubt of a physical quantity.

    It is as if DonC came in and said that one kg of water at STP is 2334 ml and not 1000 ml and 2334 ml is the correct quantify everybody should use, and then “proves” his claim by pointing out that a government agency uses that number for its internal regulatory work


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (9:54 am)

    In the end, after considering all of the data and opinions presented, I must say that analogy using the “horseless carriage” and a “cowboy and his horse”….while humorous, is quite instructive.

    Guess what folks, we grow all of our own alfalfa here…and it’s real easy to feed and take care of our Volt “horse”……jut plug it in! And if we happen to find ourselves out of alfalfa, we can use a very little of that obsolete stuff called gasoline to get where we need to be.

    Some of the Volt detractors make a couple of scientifically correct and valid points. Maybe my horse eats a little more alfalfa than yours in certain situations. You know what….I don’t care.

    I don’t care because, again….we grow all of the alfalfa we need HERE….and if worse comes to worse….I can grow my own alfalfa at home! ( solar is growing exponentially )

    Plus….the Volt is “WAY COOL” as my son says.

    There is plenty of room for other horses. I have no problem with with the Prius or the Leaf….in fact……. the more the merrier! I just like the Volt better….it’s better looking…..has “way cool” features……is fairly easy on the “alfalfa”….and rarely sends my hard earned money to the monsters overseas.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (10:05 am)

    No one will have the final word here, but as to Lyle’s original post of how little petro-juice he burned–I just want to say ‘Wow.’

    While I can understand some of the points EricLG is trying to make(pls don’t ‘troll’ me folks), the ultimate test for me is that GM’s engineers took on a task of merging an old technology(ICE) with a new technology with limitations(as in range).

    It was and is a brilliant transitional concept(I believe even GM is on record with this) that gets us to a goal that virtually all of us share–getting off of oil, no matter our varying motivations.

    Personally, I would prefer a pure EV, but it doesn’t work for me–YET.

    That being said, the idea of getting 384 mpg in a ‘transition’ vehicle, or 567 mpg, or 222 mpg in weekly use(alas, there are days I’ve driven 222 miles–let’s not go there), is a ‘winner’ for me.

    But like the first PC, or even the first Horseless Carriage(I loved the oats vs. alfalfa debate, btw), it is only a START.

    A splash of gas instead of a ‘fill ‘er up’ is absolutely remarkable for Lyle’s long day’s journey into a bright dawn ahead.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (11:00 am)

    Looks like the Cruze will be my backup if my Buick buys the farm before I can get a Volt. Seriously considering the lease option for the first time in my life.

    Me shoves more money in the Volt pile.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (11:03 am)

    DWV: In the case of parking lots in winter climates, putting more obstacles to snow removal on the parking lot will be a big deal.

    10% of spaces having access to charging would be ideal and could be put in spots with easy access to power lines and leaving places to pile the snow etc.

    Not everyone will have an EV and even if everyone had an EV everyone wouldn’t have to charge every day. But everyone with an EV would have times they need to charge, like when they had places to go after work etc.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (11:17 am)

    EricLG: Prius the lesser car ? Less EV range and more petrol use to be sure, but less pollution, and half the price.

    OK, just so I get this straight. You don’t care about EV range. You don’t care about how much gas/oil is used. You only care about pollution & price. Those are the criteria for a “better” car. I have a solution for you. Its called a huffy bicycle. Its less than $100, and produces no pollution.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (11:23 am)

    kdawg: Couple things here.
    1) What if I drive 25 miles a day to work, but also make other long trips sometimes, and I only own 1 car?
    2) If you want to make the “financial sense” argument, that’s a dead horse. There a lot of cheaper/efficient ICE cars out there that will win that war. Heck, just ride the bus, at that point.

    c’mon Kdawg, your just being stupid.

    Everyone buying a car is making a financial decision. And everyone has to evaluate many variables, the value of buying american, the value of the quality, the options on the car etc.

    And of course you have to factor how much gasoline you would save if you bought a Volt or Leaf, otherwise why would you be buying a Volt or Leaf? Driving 10,000 miles a year AER versus 20,000 miles a year AER is a huge financial difference. Lyle would easily drive 20,000 miles a year AER (of course he’ll be driving with gasoline just to study it) so he can save 700 gallons of gas a year with this car and not sacrifice bells and whistles he enjoys. 10years of that is 7000 gallons saved.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (11:34 am)

    kdawg: 1) What if I drive 25 miles a day to work, but also make other long trips sometimes, and I only own 1 car?

    If you only drive 25 miles a day you probably shouldn’t buy an EV or an EREV for several years. If you are only driving like 7000 miles a year, you aren’t using all that much gas anyways.

    In 5 years there will be EV’s and charging stations everywhere so that 7000 mile a year person could justify buying an EV.

    For the next 1-4 years, I think EREV/BEVs are hard to justify if you can’t drive 20,000 miles a year AER, because this is new technology and you are paying a premium for it.

    EREVs are best for folks that can charge at work, so they can get the AER of a BEV but the non stop range of an ICE only.
    BEV’s are especially good for folks that have cheaper overnight charging rates, and of course for folks that drive 50-60 miles a day and this assumes there will be charging stations scattered for unplanned trips.

    I am in n.e. Ohio and just looking at the map of where Nissan dealers are, I would never have more than a few minutes out of my way to stop for a charge if needed.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:53 pm)

    Tom W: If you only drive 25 miles a day you probably shouldn’t buy an EV or an EREV for several years. If you are only driving like 7000 miles a year, you aren’t using all that much gas anyways.
    In 5 years there will be EV’s and charging stations everywhere so that 7000 mile a year person could justify buying an EV.
    For the next 1-4 years, I think EREV/BEVs are hard to justify if you can’t drive 20,000 miles a year AER, because this is new technology and you are paying a premium for it.

    Why wouldn’t I want to make those 25miles electric? I drive about 10K miles/year. If I can make most of those electric, why not? I know an EREV is going to cost more, but so is a Corvette. You can justify a purchase in many ways.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (12:57 pm)

    Tom W: And of course you have to factor how much gasoline you would save if you bought a Volt or Leaf, otherwise why would you be buying a Volt or Leaf?

    There’s lots of reasons I want a Volt, and saving gasoline is not #1. I’m a geek and like the latest technology. The Volt is the most technologically advanced car on the market. Second, i like the idea/feel of whipping around on electricity. I’m an EE (AKA Sparky). Electicity is my job. I make enough money that the “financial sense” debate of saving x-gallons of gasoline is meaningless to me. Its more that i’m not supporting terrorist nations. I dont drive across town to save 2cents on a gallon of gas. I will not buy a Leaf because I only want to own 1 car. The Leaf, as it is, wont cut it. Its a great car for some people, just not me.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (5:11 pm)

    CorvetteGuy,

    The Volt costs 41k period (I loathe people who spell period, so I thought the least I could do was return the favor). The people buying the Volt now are fanboys who don’t care about math, I agree completely with you there period. Once those buyers evaporate comma which they will comma the Volt better cost far less than it does now or face sales too low to justify its own existence period.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (8:48 pm)

    kdawg: There’s lots of reasons I want a Volt, and

    hey sorry, please get and enjoy the volt, i’m talking about ‘you’ in general and mass adoption,


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    Raymondjram

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (9:33 pm)

    Dave4664: In the end, after considering all of the data and opinions presented, I must say that analogy using the “horseless carriage” and a “cowboy and his horse”….while humorous, is quite instructive. Guess what folks, we grow all of our own alfalfa here…and it’s real easy to feed and take care of our Volt “horse”……jut plug it in! And if we happen to find ourselves out of alfalfa, we can use a very little of that obsolete stuff called gasoline to get where we need to be. Some of the Volt detractors make a couple of scientifically correct and valid points. Maybe my horse eats a little more alfalfa than yours in certain situations. You know what….I don’t care. I don’t care because, again….we grow all of the alfalfa we need HERE….and if worse comes to worse….I can grow my own alfalfa at home! ( solar is growing exponentially ) Plus….the Volt is “WAY COOL” as my son says. There is plenty of room for other horses. I have no problem with with the Prius or the Leaf….in fact……. the more the merrier! I just like the Volt better….it’s better looking…..has “way cool” features……is fairly easy on the “alfalfa”….and rarely sends my hard earned money to the monsters overseas.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    I see now that one of the benefits of the Volt, in horse terms, is that it leaves less or no horse manure behind, depending on the fuel input.

    Raymond


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    TheLogicianSpoke

     

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    Nov 17th, 2010 (9:25 pm)

    Aloha!!

    This forum represents the most intellectual participation of great minds like Nasaman, DonC & EricLG (yes!!). Also there are ultra smarts that ocasionally sparkle intermittently.
    DonC VS EricLG debate, for the first time compelled me to say something.
    1. Nasaman & DonC: Will you be mad at a smart kid who tries to act oversmart?
    2. EricLG: Acting oversmart doesn’t make you smarter. (For now, you do not exhibit wisdom, understanding and physics of higher order.)
    3. Civility-People: People like EricLG make it a diverse and fun to read forum. Imagine all wise men keeping it silent and to themselves is not a vibrant forum. Critical-micro-analysis is the way to refinement. Indirectly EricLG is doing a good service. That’s why you guys are responding to him. EricLG the regular -ve voters like you too; sans namecalling. Social analysis shows that guys like EricLG, though unsophisticated in manner, get more hot chicks than rich/intelligent Nasaman/DonC.

    Prius was the best car for the longest duration. Hats off. It is an important car in the history.
    New displaces old. Volt is history altering car. Leaf follows Volt’s lead. It’s good too. So, please, folks: instead of Volt VS Leaf; let’s talk Volt & Leaf. Both will be better off with better battery. Bitterness begone.

    I have SL550. I was/am about to buy SL600. But I will instead buy Volt if I can get it in next 6 months.
    Good Prius for the last 6 years has failed to take me away from my SL. So, EricLG the great Prius is not that much great.

    Why Volt? Electric. Future.
    Do you love your ears or are you willing to suffer 10+ dB hearing loss?

    I’m designing online/virtual driver utility for accident free travel. Easy to integrate with Volt (electric motors).

    Energy/Money Efficiency

    Volt is historic in that it is the step in the right direction to destabilize the debt-based global-slavery of banking cartel.
    GE buying volt has much significance. It’s an act of fractional atonement from it’s past.
    Biggest historical sin of the common man at his own peril was to allow Nikola Tesla to be driven to obsurity by banksters.
    Otherwise we would have been living in the Jacque Fresco’s World without money or drudgery.
    Immorality of tresspassing the nature needs to be recognized as an act of shame. How can someone sell oil that they never produced?
    Stay awake people. Do not let the power grabbing Rothless Rock-a-killer take away your free electricity.
    Today we have reached 40% photovoltaic efficiency.
    Forget your powerplant to wheel numbers-debate. Just improve those.
    In the impending light of Sharp Photovoltaic Cells (Remember Helios?), LG, EEstor, GM-Replenish, Adsorbed Hydrogen and Tesla Free Energy – it’s clear that Volt and Leaf can adapt. Prius – not with current version.
    Cost of energy calculations based on stupid financial speculators is only as useful as derivatives are for buying potatoes.
    Banksters deliberately dumb-people-down with non SI system promotion. “You want to go to SI system like third world countries?” – Was a comical example of the propaganda machine called media.
    Fractional banking discounts free-market merit.
    As of now, electricity ought to be free. So should the phone and internet and food. Like the air. Evolution.
    100% full-time employment should not be the goal. Only politicians can call it a good thing. Even if we worked just one hour a day the globe will run just fine.
    Understand what energy is. What money is. What value is. What ownership is. What fun is. What’s the difference between a scientist and a politician.
    Water, the most carelessly wasted resource is more scarce than energy. Remember this.

    Do not pay to be raped. Do not pay (TSA) to be raped.
    Do not pay the cost of your own slavery.

    Remember Andrew Jackson. That’s what I see in the face of the Volt.
    Do I think of GM as a great company? No. No, Bankruptcy and IPO gains was a nice gameplan. Cheatplan.
    But do I think GM engineers are great? Yes. I respect them. They are the ones whou bring value to GM and high price to IPO.
    The GM management needs to be poorer than the GM engineers. Without those great engineers, “Chevy runs in deep trouble”. The freelance Nasaman and DonC have done more than entire GM marketing team which deserves to be wiped-off.

    So long folks.

    Think. To be free.
    Think. To be happy.