Nov 01

Electric Motors and Vehicle Company (EMAV) Launches With EV Range Extending Diesel Trailer

 

[ad#post_ad]Today Indiana-based Electric Motors and Vehicle Company (EMAV) officially launches as a company along with the announcement of its new upcoming product called the Power Regeneration Unit (PRU).

The PRU is a actually a self-propelled diesel generator on wheels that can be hitched to an electric car and towed along as a trailer. It allows the pure electric car to possibly have a similar mode of operation to the Chevy Volt’s charge-sustaining mode, acting as a range-extender that produces electricity on the fly allowing the electric car continuous operation over long distances.  The Device aims to extend the range of any electric vehicle by up to 10x—from an average electric vehicle range of 100 miles per charge to 1,000 miles per charge.

The company and product launch is further accompanied by the announcement of an extension of their partnership with with Mopar to develop the device and bring it to market. EMAV current produces and supplies the Jeep off-road camper/trailer to Mopar which is currently on sale at 2500 Chrysler dealerships in the United States. These units have been road tested for over 300,000 miles, and the PRU is built off of the same chassis.

EMAV says a working prototype will be demonstrated in the first quarter of 2011, and retail sales are anticipated to begin in the second half of 2011.

“For electric cars to be truly viable for a mass consumer audience, we need to bridge the gap between low-range electric vehicles that can travel moderate distances to electric vehicles which can truly become the sole family vehicle,” said Wil Cashen, founder and President, EMAV. “Our goal is to move the marketplace beyond the first generation of electric vehicles to more powerful and rugged cars that also have endurance. This will evolve the electric car paradigm from a supplemental to a primary car for consumers.”

The 1,220 pound device is self-propelled via an on-board 28 hp electric propulsion motor. It uses sensors to match the speed of the car.  This avoids adding any load demand to, and thus power drain from the car. It contains a 6.6 gallon fuel tank and its own lithium ion batteries. It can generate 25 kw of max power from a 4-cylinder 750cc diesel engine.  It also even has room for internal storage.

The cost of the unit is expected to be $15,000 and according to EMAV is designed to work with any electric vehicle. “It will be able to interact with any electric car,” said Cashen. “We are making the technology brand agnostic, and will have fits for all manufacturer’s models”

You may remember what was previously known as the Electric Motors Company and CEO Wil Cashen when he revealed the FLASH all -electric truck prototype in September 2009.  There was hope for DOE funding and a large production workforce that never occurred.  That company apparently failed.  As to whether this new device will make it to market, we’ll have to wait and see.

About EMAV, from their Press Release:

ELECTRIC MOTORS AND VEHICLES COMPANY, a wholly-owned subsidiary of EMAV COMPANIES , is a global technology and product development company focused on rugged and sustainable electric vehicles, and electric vehicle technologies. The company offers power systems and all-terrain vehicles of various models with powertrain options that include electric, hybrid electric, alternative fuel, gasoline, and diesel drive systems. EMAV provides essential research and development, engineering, design, production, warranty, and customer support for various automobile partners, including Mopar – Jeep, a division of Chrysler Group, LLC, for which EMAV has developed and manufactures the Mopar – Jeep and RAM Camper – Trailer products. EMAV is currently in development with numerous patent-pending electric vehicle technologies, including its proprietary PRU™: a power regeneration unit which extends the range of electric vehicles, expected to be available for sale in early 2011.

Founded in 2010, EMAV is located in Wakarusa, Indiana. For more information, visit www.emavco.com



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This entry was posted on Monday, November 1st, 2010 at 6:22 am and is filed under Competitors, Generator. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 157


  1. 1
    JohnK

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:39 am)

    Pretty good timing. One more piece of the puzzle. Kind of validates the price of the Volt. Kind of makes the Volt seem like a stroke of genius actually.


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    ziv

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:54 am)

    KISS. I think a light weight, non-selfpropelled, version would work better for most BEV owners. 1220 pounds? But it is all good, bring on all the options, be they BEV, EREV or accessories to make a BEV work like an EREV.
    Loboc has a good point. It would come in handy after a storm knocks out the electricity. It is powerful enough to run either the refrigerator and a few lights or the HVAC, but probably not both. That would be a rather useful app for me, maybe not so much for others, but I really hate buying dry ice for my freezer, while I sweat it out wishing for AC.


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    Loboc

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:55 am)

    Trailers are a pain in the butt. Parking, backing, acceleration, braking all suffer. To me, this is an Armageddon solution (IE. no other way to travel after all petroleum is expended.)

    Since it’s diesel, it can probably run on bio-diesel. The price is pretty high for this size of a generator although onboard batteries, self-propel and other features are interesting.

    If it was big enough to run a house, then it’d be another story (45Kwh or so) as you might be able to use it as emergency backup. Integration with either house or car would need additional cabling at the very least. Some sort of off-board interface would be needed.

    A self-contained, no hassle, solution is more my style. This goes to show you that an EREV is the way to go.


  4. 4
    Charlie H

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:59 am)

    Although this is a great idea, 1200 lbs is way too heavy. Take out the self-propelled feature and add lightness.


  5. 5
    MDDave

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:03 am)

    How does one add lightness???


  6. 6
    Dave K.

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:08 am)

    The more EV options the better.

    NPNS

    BTW: The 2011 manual describes the Volt as an “EREV”.


  7. 7
    Loboc

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:11 am)

    The site emavco dot com doesn’t seem to exist.


  8. 8
    Randy

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:15 am)

    This will fly like a lead balloon. Buy a volt and leave those saddled with a Leaf go this ridiculous route.


  9. 9
    bt

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:16 am)

    Someone who gets this stuff more than I do, pls help. How do you synch speeds with a self propelled device?

    What happens when I speed up to pass, slow down for sudden stop, etc.?

    I gotta assume they figured this out–I just don’t understand how you do that across various brands and computers.

    Price does seem pricey, but if you own a pure EV and are thinking of a long trip, guess it kind of makes sense to rent one.

    But as stated above, Volt already does this(that’s why renting makes more sense to me).

    One more issue, don’t you need a towing hitch? Are any EV manufacturers providing same?


  10. 10
    jscott1

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:22 am)

    Synchronizing speed would not be that difficult. It could have sensors to detect when it’s being pulled and match speed to equalize. Whether or not it can keep up under all conditions is a different story.

    It seems overly complicated and expensive for the average person.

    I guess if you are a die hard BEV person this might make sense, but then again die hard BEV people don’t want to burn diesel fuel either.

    I would much rather have a Chevy Volt than a BEV and this contraption.


  11. 11
    MDDave

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:23 am)

    If you actually used this enough for it to be cost effective, you probably should have purchased a Volt or other EREV instead–a Volt would certainly be a lot more convenient. Heck, you could even buy an Aveo to go along with your BEV for $15,000. I can’t see anyone concluding that this product is a good deal.

    I could imagine a rental market developing for it in the future in BEV users that want to take a long trip occasionally, but I wouldn’t invest in that business just yet either.


  12. 12
    JeremyK

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:26 am)

    The trailer was a great idea until I saw the price. Ouch. It would probably be about 1/2 the price if it didn’t have it’s own Li batteries and propulsion system. A much lighter version would probably not require the propulsion system or the batteries.

    For $600 this little setup would work for speeds up to around 40 mph. LOL

    http://www.harborfreight.com/engines-generators/gas-engine-generators/13-hp-5500-rated-watts-6500-max-watts-generator-with-electric-start.html

    http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/trailer-trailer-accessories/800-lb-capacity-55-inch-x-35-inch-box-trailer-2948.html

    Speaking of towing, I own a 4X8 utility trailer that I use for everything from towing my motorcycle to track days to hauling mulch for my yard. I know the Volt isn’t rated for towing and last I heard they do not recommend it. What are people’s thoughts on this?

    Seems to me that as long as the GVWR was maintained, that a trailer (plus cargo) would be no different that a 4 passengers, a full tank of gas, gear, etc. OK, maybe a bike on the trailer would put the combo in excess of the GVWR, but a lightly loaded trailer should be OK. I’m sure the subframe of the car could handle a small Class I trailer and a hitch will probably be offered for the Cruze (at least in aftermarket). Just wondering about loads on the electrical motor(s).


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    Tom M

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:27 am)

    Nice concept, there will be a market for range extenders like this, but not at $15,000. You would be better served just buying a small ICE car for your long journeys if it costs that much. If someone could build and sell one of these for $5,000 or less I could see it working, but this is just a rich mans toy.

    Maybe if you could rent it for a few days that might make it viable but not as a purchase.


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    JeremyK

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:29 am)

    MDDave: If you actually used this enough for it to be cost effective, you probably should have purchased a Volt or other EREV instead–a Volt would certainly be a lot more convenient. Heck, you could even buy an Aveo to go along with your BEV for $15,000. I can’t see anyone concluding that this product is a good deal.I could imagine a rental market developing for it in the future in BEV users that want to take a long trip occasionally, but I wouldn’t invest in that business just yet either.    

    +1 on the rental market comment. I don’t see individuals buying this thing and parking it next to their garage only to be used a couple times a year for long trips. I CAN see swinging by UHaul on your way out of town to pick up a range extender.


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    ClarksonCote

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:31 am)

    JeremyK: Speaking of towing, I own a 4X8 utility trailer that I use for everything from towing my motorcycle to track days to hauling mulch for my yard. I know the Volt isn’t rated for towing and last I heard they do not recommend it. What are people’s thoughts on this? Seems to me that as long as the GVWR was maintained, that a trailer (plus cargo) would be no different that a 4 passengers, a full tank of gas, gear, etc. OK, maybe a bike on the trailer would put the combo in excess of the GVWR, but a lightly loaded trailer should be OK. I’m sure the subframe of the car could handle a small Class I trailer and a hitch will probably be offered for the Cruze (at least in aftermarket). Just wondering about loads on the electrical motor(s).  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Aftermarket hitches are already available for the Cruze. I have not seen anything advertised for the Volt, as of yet. I’m wondering if their whole bumper with the reverse light in the center could prevent any viable aftermarket solution from coming to market.

    join thE REVolution


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    jscott1

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:31 am)

    For $15,000 you could buy an Aveo to go with your BEV and still have $3,000 in the bank.

    As for towing, I doubt that the Leaf has any towing capability which is why this thing has to be self-propelled. I doubt that a non-propelled version would work for anything over 30 mph. Which would limit it to the city and pretty much mean you don’t need it.

    As for towing on the Volt, there is more to towing than weight capacity. Like twisting of the unibody frame from unexpected loads coming from a single point. I’m sure that would void your warranty.

    They should have reversed this concept and put the chairs on the trailer and have it tow the BEV. That would make more sense.


  17. 17
    Dylan

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:39 am)

    You sync speed just like hydrauliic trailer breaks currently work. When you slow down, you put pressure on the tongue of the trailer thereby applying the breaks. If you allow this to work both ways, you have acceleration.

    I drive a pickup and often tow heavy loads so a trailer like this doesnt bother me (except for the price). However your typical customer currently is used to driving small vehicles and problably have never driven a trailer in their life. I cant tell you how many times my friend of mine rented a trailer to move then had to call me half way through their move because they realized they didnt know how to tow and especially backup the trailer.

    I am a big fan of using a diesel generator for this, but 25kw seems a bit low for all but the smallest BEV’s or limiting to city driving only. Keep it simple, keep the price down, dont self propel and no need for extra batteries.


  18. 18
    Robert

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:40 am)

    I think this is Vaporware. Maybe someday, but do the current generation of Leaf Coda drivers even want something like this, I doubt it, if they did they’d buy a Volt instead.


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    Baltimore17

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:41 am)

    Dave K.: The more EV options the better.NPNSBTW: The 2011 manual describes the Volt as an “EREV”.    

    Off topic, but is the Volt manual available on-line?


  20. 20
    jscott1

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:46 am)

    The problem with towing a small generator (without the batteries) is that to generate enough electrical power to accelerate you would need a motor as large as what you would need to drive the car itself.

    This has been debated many times, and it’s basic physics, but some people still don’t get it. You can’t hook up a 28 hp engine to a car and expect any kind of performance. This trailer needs the batteries in order to be able to provide enough power to handle the accelerations just the same as the Volt cannot operate without its batteries.

    This means you either need a large engine, or a smaller engine with batteries. Either way it becomes too heavy to pull so it has to be self-propelled.

    All this seems to confirm that Chevy picked the correct architecture for the Volt. I predict this idea will be as successful as their electric F-150 (as in not successful).


  21. 21
    Eco

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:04 am)

    Nice concept, a tent camper’s dream really.

    If you are determined to own one and only one car, then yea, I get it.

    If you commute for weekends to another city (more common than you might think), then yea, that could work too.

    The price needs to be under 5k, but more likely you need to be able to rent these.


  22. 22
    dantonj

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:13 am)

    I’m not sure how many people will buy this.

    However, I can see U-Haul or others buying it and then renting it to people planning on driving long distances. Just make sure it can carry additional cargo/luggage.


  23. 23
    JeremyK

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:18 am)

    jscott1: …As for towing on the Volt, there is more to towing than weight capacity.Like twisting of the unibody frame from unexpected loads coming from a single point.I’m sure that would void your warranty.They should have reversed this concept and put the chairs on the trailer and have it tow the BEV.That would make more sense.    

    You don’t need a truck to tow something. Most vehicles, even compact cars, are designed to accept trailer hitches, which bolt into the subframe near the rear of the vehicle. I had a hitch on my Gen I Pontiac Vibe and I’ve got one on my Saab 9-2X. Absolutely no problems pulling a small trailer with either of them. I’m not worried at all about the loads on the vehicle chassis, I’m only slightly concerned about the loads on the powertrain. Being a EVT, I’m just not sure how those loads are transferred.

    From a power/torque standpoint, the 111kW rating of the Volt is more than enough to tow at freeway speeds.


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    Mark Z

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:19 am)

    Renting a diesel or gas car (or SUV) that fits the requirements for a two week family vacation makes more sense. Just make sure the rental company allows for long distance or out of state travel if necessary.

    Adding $15,000 to the cost of a Leaf equals $47,780. The Volt is $41,000 and no trailer needed.


  25. 25
    jimza skeptic

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:20 am)

    MDDave: How does one add lightness???  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Well I guess in theory you could fill it with helium. That would help take the weight off the tires and cut friction! ;-) LOLOL I think that “adds lightness”


  26. 26
    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:30 am)

    It’s a Super-Geek!
    Super-Geek!
    It’s Super-Geek-ie… Yowww!


  27. 27
    joe

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:32 am)

    I’ve read about EV fans suggesting hauling a generator from behind their electric car, but I never thought it would make sense. The many nuisance of extra weight, extra tolls, parking, registration cost, maintenance, safety, insurance, efficiency, etc, just does not make sense. Maybe for a select few, but not for me.

    I can tell you towing a generator behind an electric car will never catch. It’s just not feasible!


  28. 28
    Dave G

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:37 am)

    jscott1: It seems overly complicated and expensive for the average person.
    I guess if you are a die hard BEV person this might make sense, but then again die hard BEV people don’t want to burn diesel fuel either.

    Yes, well said, +1.

    jscott1: I would much rather have a Chevy Volt than a BEV and this contraption.

    I think most people would buy an EREV, if the price was reasonable, and it was the right type of vehicle for their needs.

    But right now, the Volt is the only game in town. No other major car maker has even announced an EREV model. This is bad news. Competition validates the market. Without competition, consumers are less confident. They’ll ask: “If EREVs are so great, how come nobody else is making one?”. In the end, competition helps everyone, including GM.

    So that’s my biggest hope – that someone else makes an EREV to compete with the Volt.

    And when I say “EREV”, I’m not talking technical design details. Any car that uses electricity as the main source of fuel and uses gas/E85 as backup would compete with the Volt. Parallel designs with larger batteries and motors (a.k.a. “near series” designs) would also compete.


  29. 29
    Jason M. Hendler

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:37 am)

    Can EV’s travel while charging?

    I thought there was some type of kill switch to prevent someone from driving away while the vehicle was still plugged in.


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    maharguitar

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:40 am)

    I don’t know how this trailer works but here is one way that it could work. You have the generator and the drive motors on the trailer. In between the two there is a current flow meter. The control circuitry monitors this meter and tries to maintain zero current flow between drive motor and the generator. If the trailer is not moving, this is simple. Once you start to pull the trailer, the drive motors will start to generate power and current will flow from the drive motors to the generator. The control circuitry responds by apply generator power to balance out that which is generated by the drive motor and there is no longer any current flowing between the generator and the drive motor. Except now the trailer is moving. The car towing the trailer feels no load.

    When you slow down, the generator will be supplying too much power and the flow between the generator and the drive motor will be in the opposite direction. The control circuitry reduces the power of the generator until the flow is zero again.

    Pulling a trailer like this would feel odd to someone used to pulling a regular trailer. You wouldn’t feel the weight of the trailer as you accelerated or slowed down.


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    bookdabook

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:42 am)

    Mark Z: Adding $15,000 to the cost of a Leaf equals $47,780. The Volt is $41,000 and no trailer needed.

    Nuff said. On to the next topic Lyle.

    Off topic. Nasaman’s video inspired me to download my own test drive video in which I get the Volt up to 73 mph on a straight-away in San Diego. This inspired the GM engineer riding to say “This car is no slouch!” after my left turn fishtail.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehrtlWEGESA

    Check it out.

    -Book


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    Big Bird

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:43 am)

    So it’s the VOLT in two parts! Hummm I’m happy with everything under the hood, in a tight package that I can park in the non RV lot at Walmart :)

    One cool advantage that could come about from this though is the rental market. You buy an EV that comes OEM with hook up connectors for this kind of thing, and when taking long trips just rent the unit.

    That actually could work.


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    Murrcar

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:50 am)

    Does this generator have to meet any emission regulations? I would bet that the tailpipe NOx emissions are off the chart.


  34. 34
    JeremyK

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:53 am)

    Anyone happen to know the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) for the Volt?

    From what I’ve read, it’s only the tongue weight of a trailer that counts toward the GVW. The more I think about, it the more I think the Volt should be able to tow, as long as acceleration and deceleration were kept to moderate levels.

    For those with an owner’s manual…what is the final word on towing? It’s not a deal breaker for me, but it certainly would be nice to have the option. A simple Class I hitch would be all that is needed…this goes for people who haul bicycles and stuff too. Might be a missed opportunity if GM didn’t design for this capability.

    Class I Hitches

    This is the lightest type of trailer hitch. A Class 1 trailer hitch can handle a gross trailer weight (GTW) of up to 2,000 lbs., and a maximum tongue weight of 200 lbs. The hitch may be a simple drawbar-type hitch or step bumper-type hitch. Other hitches may have a crossbar with a small one-inch or 1-1/2-inch square receiver, or a small 2-inch by 5/8-inch receiver. This type of hitch is often used on smaller cars, smaller pickups and smaller vans (minivans) for bicycle racks, camping racks, and light-duty towing.


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    nasaman

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:01 am)

    bookdabook: Off topic. Nasaman’s video inspired me to download my own test drive video in which I get the Volt up to 73 mph on a straight-away in San Diego. This inspired the GM engineer riding to say “This car is no slouch!”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehrtlWEGESA

    Good demo —I saw 74 briefly on the speedo! Wow those darned seams in the pavement are rough! (May I suggest a ‘Targus Monopod’ at $10 from any Radio Shack to steady a camera ALMOST as well as a tripod —even Pros use these compact, lightweight 1-legged tripods.) Go to http://www.radioshack.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2105764


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    LeoK

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:03 am)

    This is one company’s Monday Morning Quarterback solution to owning a pure EV; however this solution just isnt going to fly. A) its too heavy and I don’t see any wings, B) it looks bigger that the car that’s towing it in the photo, C) look at the price!

    This company may be on to something though. I could definitely see this type of trailer taking off in the RV market. Add a water heater, the kitchen sink and a small fridge, and you’ve got yourself a small portable home away from home. You can even bring your living room lamps and plug them in at night! LOL….


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    George S. Bower

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:04 am)

    First, Hats off to Hermperez for predicting this would happen, although It sure is heavy, big and expensive. I was wondering how they would get the 220v supply to charge the main vehicle batts but looks like they may not be doing that and simply using mechanical assist so you would want to start the trip fully charged and then you would not use any juice along the way. If you parked at a motel overnight you could then charge the car.


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    nasaman

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:10 am)

    LeoK: This is one company’s Monday Morning Quarterback solution to owning a pure EV; however this solution just isnt going to fly. A) its too heavy and I don’t see any wings, B) it looks bigger that the car that’s towing it in the photo, C) look at the price!

    This company may be on to something though. I could definitely see this type of trailer taking off in the RV market. Add a water heater, the kitchen sink and a small fridge, and you’ve got yourself a small portable home away from home. You can even bring your living room lamps and plug them in at night!

    I agree, Leo! Except that I doubt that Onan & others that make built-in generators for RVs are very worried. If someone owned a “poor man’s RV” installed on the bed of his pickup without its own generator …well maybe, at least as a towable rental generator.


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    Flaninacupboard

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:10 am)

    Sucks if the mpg’s towing this diesel genset and staying in CD mode is better than CS in the volt.

    Probably the case though.

    I could see having one of these with a leaf. Monday to Friday it’s all EV, weekends it part diesel, part EV.


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    Loboc

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:19 am)

    JeremyK: A Class 1 trailer hitch can handle a gross trailer weight (GTW) of up to 2,000 lbs., and a maximum tongue weight of 200 lbs.

    The vehicle itself is usually the limiting factor. Most small cars have a tow limit of 1,000 lbs. (HHR for example.) Others have ‘towing not recommended’ ratings.

    Someone with a manual please look this up.

    http://www.chevrolet.com/assets/pdf/en/overview/11_Trailering_Guide.pdf


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    ocryan

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:20 am)

    This was done already, long ago, and much better for the Rav4 electric by AC Propulsion. Called the “Long Ranger”, check out the pictures:

    http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm

    This one only ways 300 pounds and is MUCH smaller, check out the stats:

    http://www.madkatz.com/acpropulsion/longRanger.html

    Interesting to note that the trailer steers itself, so you drive the car as if the trailer wasn’t there at all, which is good given that it’s so small you probably wouldn’t be able to see it at all from the driver’s seat!


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    CraigJ

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:25 am)

    Its hard to believe that investors would buy in to such a concept. Johnk’s comment bears repeating, this certainly does validate the cost of the Volt.


  43. 43
    JDan

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:28 am)

    Ok, I gotta put my 2 cents worth in. I can imagine someone putting a house generator on a utility trailer. Say $2300 for the generator, $500 for the trailer, a couple of hundred for wireing and voila! I think $3-$4 thousand should do it (including hitch), and save $11,000 smackers. :D


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    Steve

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:36 am)

    Might make sense if these where offered as rental units for EV owners that need to make an out of range trip. Driving around a trailer can be a real pain sometimes though. Given only one vehicle and a choice I’d rather have a Volt.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:48 am)

    Dave K.: The more EV options the better.NPNSBTW: The 2011 manual describes the Volt as an “EREV”.    

    It’s always been called an EREV, and somebody in their new ad agency had better wake up and start using that label!

    It is NOT more car than electric.
    It is NOT a hybrid.
    It IS an Extended Range Electric Vehicle.


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    Texas

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:49 am)

    I think this is a punk.

    It is simply ridiculous. Who in their right mind would buy such a beast?

    Anyway, good for a laugh and maybe a great marketing opportunity for GM.

    Have the Volt next to the Leaf with this trailer. Talk about the two solutions being equivalent and then mention the cost of the trailer.

    Finally, show the Volt owners laughing while the Leaf owners bow their heads.


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    kdawg

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:49 am)

    What’s the CS MPG? :)


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    R. Reed

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:50 am)

    I wonder what California law would say about this. You can’t buy a diesel car (unless it was already here before the law was passed) in California.


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    Loboc

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:51 am)

    JDan,

    Quote I got for a stationary 43Kw generator was $15,000 not including transfer switch or wiring. This is a V-6 Natural Gas engine.

    Here’s a 48Kw from HD: http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-Outdoor-Power-Equipment-Generators-Standby-Generators/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xggZapxn/R-202322383/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

    Volt has a 53Kw generator.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:53 am)

    bookdabook: This inspired the GM engineer riding to say “This car is no slouch!” after my left turn fishtail.

    Those low rolling resistance tires have pretty good grip! Good to know.


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    DonC

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:58 am)

    Think about the pollution and the emissions you’d get from that thing. OUch! GM has managed to seamlessly integrate a trailer’s worth of stuff into a small space under the hood. That is obviously the proper way to do it. Great engineering.


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    DonC

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:00 am)

    bookdabook: Off topic. Nasaman’s video inspired me to download my own test drive video in which I get the Volt up to 73 mph on a straight-away in San Diego.

    I see from the video that you’re the guy who cut in front of me in the line! That was OK, I’m mellow.


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    srschrier

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:00 am)

    If only the generator was integrated within the rest of the car instead of on a trailer. . .


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:01 am)

    CorvetteGuy, post #50:
    Those low rolling resistance tires have pretty good grip! Good to know.    

    ( See video at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehrtlWEGESA )

    But you know what, CG? That video reminds me of about the ONLY thing I’ve never liked about California’s portland cement slab freeways —those noisy, jolting SEAMS!


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    honoreitiscom

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:02 am)

    Will a Leaf allow itself to be AC charged while running? I doubt it. I don’t think a Volt will.


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    Noel Park

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:04 am)

    MDDave: How does one add lightness???    

    #5

    Get rid of stuff you don’t need, as Charlie H correctly suggests.


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    Noel Park

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:07 am)

    Murrcar: Does this generator have to meet any emission regulations?I would bet that the tailpipe NOx emissions are off the chart.    

    #33

    The $64,000 question IMHO. +1


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    Dave K.

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:14 am)

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    Jaime

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:17 am)

    Leaf owners will not need this, because they aren’t buying the cars to be long range vehicles. They are buying electric commuter based cars, not interstate cruisers.

    Why try to make your car do something its not designed to do? That would be like buying a Porsche 911 then trying to make an adapter so you can pull a boat. Its just not needed.


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    JDan

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:19 am)

    Loboc,

    I was actually thinking about a 25kw (from article) used generator, sorry should have mentioned that. I guess I was trying to say this seems a bit silly to me. While this trailer thing is interesting, given the cost added to say the leaf it doesn’t seem very practical. The Volt would not need it, and would certainly be easier to live with.


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    T 1

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:19 am)

    This is what engineers sequestered in the back room produce. Rube Goldberg would be proud.

    Instead, look what some of the big boys are doing:

    http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/10/ge-buying-tens-of-thousands-of-evs/

    This repeats my post of last week, but adds some speculation as to the companies involved.


  62. 62
    Jeff N

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:20 am)

    JeremyK: For those with an owner’s manual…what is the final word on towing?    

    Volt Owner Manual page 9-57: “The vehicle is neither designed nor intended to tow a trailer or another vehicle.”


  63. 63
    LauraM

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:21 am)

    Loboc: Trailers are a pain in the butt. Parking, backing, acceleration, braking all suffer. To me, this is an Armageddon solution (IE. no other way to travel after all petroleum is expended.)

    That’s my impression too. There’s no way I would use this to go on vacation. I’d stay home first.


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    Shawn Marshall

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:35 am)

    Love it Capn Jack?
    Rentals are the first app.
    Home solar second app with standby power also. Somebody was all wrong that it’s not big enough for home usage. That’s incorrect.
    As a BEV fan this is very encouraging. I’ve towed boat trailers and etc for years and it is no big deal. It would need good engineering to give braking drag on downgrades when needed. 1200 pounds is a very light tow vehicle.
    Only thing better would be a cheaper unit.
    Maybe I will fall off the wagon and buy a Leaf before I can get a made in the USA BEV.


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    stuart22

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:42 am)

    nasaman,

    R. Reed: I wonder what California law would say about this. You can’t buy a diesel car (unless it was already here before the law was passed) in California.    

    And will CA disallow ZEV status to LEAFs and any other BEVs which utilize these things? Besides the added emissions, these contraptions add substantial length to a vehicle which would only increase the traffic congestion potential. Anything that needs two parking places ought to be doubly taxed at registration time. And what are the insurance companies going to say about it? It’s a can of worms.

    Only the most ego-driven, denial-ridden BEV fanatic would be happy with these things. They’ll be able to keep fooling themselves with their ‘zero emission’ fantasy about the car they own.


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    Rob

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:43 am)

    They should be rented. Owners of EVs do not really need to own these units.


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    Streetlight

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:47 am)

    25 kW from 750 cc is quite respectable. Paint PRU yellow – hook it up to a AAA truck – and voila! another LEAF is rescued.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:54 am)

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    capt bentley

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (11:05 am)

    We actually did this about 10 yeears ago when we put a 10HP Diesel Generator in a small sears cart and hitched it to an EZGO 36volt Golf Cart using a 36 volt carged plugged into the Genset. The plan was to drive it to Vermont from Connecticut. The concept worked, but we didn’t make the trip figuring we wouldn’t make it too far without being pulled over.


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    Nelson

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (11:10 am)

    ocryan: 25 kw of max power

    It’s like I’ve always said GM should be using a
    “Kawasaki 500cc, 2 cyl, DOHC 4-valve/cyl, liquid-cooled” ICE.
    Wonder which motor cycle company GM will buy with IPO money.

    NPNS!


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    kdawg

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (11:41 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Finally! A member of the press who ‘gets it’: http://www.freep.com/article/20101031/COL14/10310460/1331/Business01/Chevy-Volt-Fact-vs.-Fiction

    It’s kind of funny sometimes still. When I flew out on Thursday, the TSA officer asked me what I was going to be doing in Baltimore. I said I was going to the rally and also to test drive the Chevy Volt. He chuckled and said, “They better bring a long extension cord!”. I said, it doesn’t need an extension cord to run, it can go 40miles per charge. To which he replied “Yeah, but if they have 40 people test ride they’ll have to go charge it again.” .. I sighed and started to explain about the range extender, but then it was my turn to go through the metal detector, so I just told him to do some reading (which he probably wont). This was in Michigan too, where the Volt is being made. Its going to take some time to get people educated.


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    unni

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (11:43 am)

    Nelson:
    It’s like I’ve always said GM should be using a
    “Kawasaki 500cc, 2 cyl, DOHC 4-valve/cyl, liquid-cooled” ICE.
    Wonder which motor cycle company GM will buy with IPO money.NPNS!    

    If you have read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzero

    It says it fetched 30 – 35 mpg on trailer . Volt – i here its getting 35 – 50 with 1.4 ltr

    AC Propulsion also produced a portable internal combustion powered generator mounted on a trailer known as the Long Ranger that could be towed behind the car and feed power to the batteries during travel. The trailer used a 500 cc Kawasaki engine with a 9.5 U.S. gallon (40 liter) fuel tank and achieved 30 to 35 mpg over at least 20,000 highway miles. It is rated at 20 kW DC output and can maintain 60 to 80 mph. Video footage of the backtracking feature, which allows drivers to easily back a trailer through a set of slalom cones.


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    LauraM

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:04 pm)

    Noel Park:

    Get rid of stuff you don’t need, as Charlie H correctly suggests.

    As long as it requires an extra set of wheels and a frame, it can’t be as efficient as the Volt.


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    Evil Conservative

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:13 pm)

    Why? It looks nice and would work but $15,000?!?!? Holy cow. If you have $15,000 extra and are buying a EV you could A.) Buy a Volt and eliminate the trailer need or B.) Buy a nice used Aveo for about $5,000 and use that when you need to go long distance and probably get better MPG.

    If you can get one of these for less then $4,000 then it probably makes fiscal sense.


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    Matthew_B

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:13 pm)

    honoreitiscom: Will a Leaf allow itself to be AC charged while running?I doubt it.I don’t think a Volt will.    

    That’s why they are driving the trailer wheels and pushing the car with this trailer.

    I believe both vehicles use the motor inverter as a controlled rectifier for charging, so there is now way to charge and drive the car at once.

    Perhaps if you added power through the DC charge port on the LEAF it would work that way.


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    jscott1

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:16 pm)

    I think this person had a better idea…

    push0.jpg

    http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm

    Just put all the propulsion in the trailer. Heck you can pick up the front half of a wrecked car for next to nothing.


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    Matthew_B

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:16 pm)

    DonC: Think about the pollution and the emissions you’d get from that thing. OUch!

    That all depends on if they put EFI and a catalytic converter on the thing. If they do, it won’t be worse than a car. If they use a portable generator as the basis, then it would be nasty.


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    Matthew_B

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:17 pm)

    nasaman: But you know what, CG? That video reminds me of about the ONLY thing I’ve never liked about California’s portland cement slab freeways —those noisy, jolting SEAMS!

    I always wondered how they manage to get every slab to tip the same direction?


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    Exp_EngTech

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:17 pm)

    Hmmm……

    I hate to pour cold water on this seemingly interesting article. Perhaps it will happen but I’m very doubtful. Allow me to explain. I happen to live and work in Elkhart County Indiana where this “company” is located. Elkhart County is the RV Capitol of the World. The only relevant RV company not based here is Winnebago.

    Cashen suddenly appeared in the area after the collapse of the Class A Motor Home industry with the Sub Prime Disaster. Access to loans dried up…the market collapsed.

    Cashen is…. kinda regarded here as that “Professor Harold Hill” character from the movie and musical…. “The Music Man”. Lots of hype and not much else. Like the movie, you could hear him say…“Ya got trouble ! Right here in River City !” Based on what later happened to EMC / Cashen and what I’ve heard … steer clear.

    On the bright side, there appears to be some activity at the new THINK North America facility on the east side of Elkhart. I drive past it about every other week. They are preparing to receive 500 nearly complete THINK City’s. They will arrive without the electric drive motor and the EnerDel pack. An article I read recently referred to them as “gliders”. I got the impression they would be here by year end. The US THINK City version will supposedly have a beefier motor, capable of 75 mph.

    http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/11/think-builds-2-500th-think-city-in-europe-u-s-operations-are-a/

    Also important to note is that Navistar is producing their electric delivery vehicle. I believe they are produced in nearby Wakarusa, Indiana.

    http://www.navistar.com/Navistar/StaticPages/Promos/Navistar+Electric+Vehicle


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    Matthew_B

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:19 pm)

    stuart22: And will CA disallow ZEV status to LEAFs and any other BEVs which utilize these things? Besides the added emissions, these contraptions add substantial length to a vehicle which would only increase the traffic congestion potential. Anything that needs two parking places ought to be doubly taxed at registration time.

    I would presume that the thing will need a trailer registration, ergo it is double taxed.


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    Lawrence

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:19 pm)

    I like it for various reasons:

    1. You own a pure EV as a main vehicle for your daily stuff
    2. You rent a towable Range-extender of your choice for extended trips
    3. EV market is growing, let towable range extender market extend as well (concurrency, R&D -> efficiency, Price)
    4. It sounds reasonable, feasable, realistic, economically viable, efficient until we get to some great battery improvements.

    You keep the good part of both worlds.


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    ClarksonCote

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:20 pm)

    Jeff N: Volt Owner Manual page 9-57: “The vehicle is neither designed nor intended to tow a trailer or another vehicle.”  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Yeah, well… My Civic says that too… I put an aftermarket hitch on it, and it has less power than a Volt has, by far.

    join thE REVolution


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:25 pm)

    ClarksonCote:
    Yeah, well… My Civic says that too… I put an aftermarket hitch on it, and it has less power than a Volt has, by far.join thE REVolution    

    Yes, but does your Civic have $41K worth of automobile with a voided warranty to worry about?

    If I had a nickel for every time GM says in my owner’s manual, “if you do this _____, any damage will not be covered under your warranty” I could retire a millionaire.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:28 pm)

    Matthew_B:
    I would presume that the thing will need a trailer registration, ergo it is double taxed.    

    Yes, I have an auto transport trailer and it’s triple taxed. I have to pay the tax for the tow vehicle, plus the trailer, plus the tax on the car it’s assumed to be carrying, even if it never leaves the yard the entire year. So trailers are big money makers for the state.


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    Loboc

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:38 pm)

    Here’s a genset used with a Lincoln. Not a trailer though.

    CadillacGenerator.jpg

    Nice replacement tail light also.. :)


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:46 pm)

    kdawg: Its going to take some time to get people educated.

    We should bomb the new ad agency with emails to get them to start the “Extended Range Electric Vehicle” ads as soon as possible. The ‘education’ should have started months ago.


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    Nelson

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:51 pm)

    unni,

    Did you consider the weight difference between the 1.4 ltr 4cyl and the 500cc, 2 cyl?
    “30 – 35 mpg on trailer” sounds like added drag to me.
    What would the difference in drag be between the 500cc, 2 cyl on a trailer as opposed to in the ICE compartment of the VOLT? No trailer means two less wheels touching the ground not to mention less wind resistance.
    I think the combination of the two might yield better mileage in a Volt.

    On the other hand:
    I’m sure the “Kawasaki 500cc, 2 cyl, DOHC 4-valve/cyl, liquid-cooled” was one of the best choices at the time, but motor cycle engine improvements have also progressed. A better choice should exist.
    If Honda decides to go the EREV route, watch what happens.

    We might just see 70 mpg in CS mode in a lighter package.
    That’s the beauty of new technology, all possibilities have yet to be tested.

    The Volt has ushered in a new era of automotive transportation.

    NPNS!


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    koz

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    500lbs, $6000, capability to serve as a home emergency generator would be an enticing option

    25KW is more than enough home emergency backup capacity for most people and significantly larger than the most common 15kW units sold by Generac which cost about $2500 w/o installation


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:02 pm)

    koz: 500lbs, $6000, capability to serve as a home emergency generator would be an enticing option25KW is more than enough home emergency backup capacity for most people and significantly larger than the most common 15kW units sold by Generac which cost about $2500 w/o installation    

    Maybe, but the Generac units are burning natural gas, which is piped in and unlikely to be affected by a storm.

    This unit burns diesel, which would either have to be stored on-site, (not impossible, but messy) or you would have to find a station that is still pumping immediately after the storm, (unlikely).


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    James

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:02 pm)

    We’re all kinda hangin’ around – waiting to fill in the space until we can enjoy hearing Lyle’s experiences with his loaner Volt – and then his delivered ownership experience. I know news may be thin and the whole EV trailer subject is out there – but c’mon – how relevent is it other than to show us how advanced and revolutionary Volt is? Hey, it doesn’t need a trailer – and it won’t leave you stranded – end of story.

    EVs need no trailer. If you find that is a need – buy a hybrid or mixed EV/hybrid ( aka: Volt ). GM still calls Volt an EREV in it’s owner’s manual – and call it what you like – it’s unique and it answers all those old, “maybe a trailered genset or a pusher motor hooked up behind can get us there” questions. Volt is an elegant solution to such a dilemma, why not just design the generator element into the vehicle from the start? People who buy an EV will do so with the understanding of it’s usages, and it’s limitations.

    Can you imagine looking for a parking spot?

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    Loboc

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    koz: 500lbs, $6000, capability to serve as a home emergency generator would be an enticing option25KW is more than enough home emergency backup capacity for most people and significantly larger than the most common 15kW units sold by Generac which cost about $2500 w/o installation    

    10Kw with a battery for extra surge would work for small to medium houses. It’s the surge load of things starting up (like a/c, freezer, refrigerator motors). Once they start, they use a lot less power than the initial kick.

    Here’s one for a 200-amp power entrance:

    http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgg/R-100661780/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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    kent beuchert

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:09 pm)

    For $15,000 why not simply buy an ICE for trips. This whole strategy is bizarrely stupid and inconvenient. Self-propelled?


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    Dave

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:10 pm)

    jscott1: The problem with towing a small generator (without the batteries) is that to generate enough electrical power to accelerate you would need a motor as large as what you would need to drive the car itself.

    Not so fast jscott1….. The ICE range extender only needs to meet the AVERAGE power demand to drive the car. Remember, the electric car already has its own batteries to buffer peak power demands. I can see a much simpler, lighter, cheaper system with just a small generator (about the size of this one seems reasonable, 25 kW or so). It would work as follows:
    1. when battery reaches ~20% state of charge, the generator is activated.
    2. generator runs flat out, at maximum capacity– this is a very efficient operating mode for the ICE, it warms up quickly and runs efficiently, without stopping.
    3. depending on driving conditions, the battery may be charging slowly, or just maintaining charge. Peak needs for acceleration, hills, met by reserve charge in battery.
    3a. In the rare case of the extended, significant uphill grade, the driver might have to slow down or stop and wait for charge to accumulate. A pain perhaps, but something most drivers just don’t encounter that often.

    Indeed, I sort of lament GM didn’t pursue this somewhat compromised performance vision– would have resulted in much better extended range fuel economy


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    Dave G

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:10 pm)

    Mark Z: Renting a diesel or gas car (or SUV) that fits the requirements for a two week family vacation makes more sense. Just make sure the rental company allows for long distance or out of state travel if necessary.

    For pure BEVs, the “other car” strategy has 2 major flaws.

    First and foremost, it hides the fact that the total solution still requires gasoline. In fact, if the other car is not as fuel efficient, the “BEV + other car” solution often uses more gasoline than an EREV. So when pure BEV advocates brag about no tailpipe, it seems like a con to me, since their total solution does include a tailpipe.

    Second, it assumes you know in advance when you’ll need to travel beyond your electric range.

    For example, let’s say you’ve just come home from work and get a call from a friend urging you to come visit. Your wife needs to be somewhere else, so the other car is unavailable. Renting a car is a hassle, so you just tell your friend you can’t make it.

    Or what if it’s 10pm and you just found out your brother had an accident. He’s not critical, but you want to be with him in the hospital tonight. The problem is that he lives 200 miles away. Your daughter’s soccer game tomorrow is far away from home, so your wife needs the other car.

    There are a many more examples like this. Life doesn’t always go according to plan.

    If you have a spare gas engine car for each BEV, that would work, but it’s also a very expensive solution, not only in terms of money, but also in terms of space in your driveway, and in terms of the energy and resources required to produce 2 cars for 1 person.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:14 pm)

    One of my favorite Thoughts for the Day:

    slogan48.jpg


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    James

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:14 pm)

    My biggest question once someone gets a Volt and really can live with it for awhile – is can you find a hill, or mountainous drive wherein practicable, usable energy can be regenerated and used on the same trip?

    If I had a Volt for a couple days, I’d be out driving in L ( CS mode ) and looking for that downside mountain drive where I could coast and regen to my heart’s content – to see if I could get Volt to restart operation ( no matter how briefly ) in EV mode once again – on the same trip, without having to re-plug in. I’ve been told by a GM Volt engineer in person that this theoretically is possible – it would be very fun to see firsthand.

    If you’re like me and waiting patiently for Lyle’s Volt experience – Here’s a video that I enjoyed – to tide you over a bit – and yes, I know this guy on Autoline Detroit is biased towards the Detroit auto industry, but his review of driving Volt is very well done and I like his take on things. See if you agree ( try and ignore the flowery green Volt door panels, and think “hey, some women may really dig that color scheme ). I just like the charcoal grey center stack and the enhanced graphics on the displays more and more, the more I look at it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAttSxn0A5Y

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    sparks

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:18 pm)

    Is this April Fool’s day? I’m serious, is this a freakin’ joke??

    For $15,000, why not just buy a second car? You could even get brand new if you go into the economy models, and they tend to be high MPG models to boot. Or, you can get a certified slightly used car for that amount.

    After all, you would then have two (2) warranties, so you won’t be running out the mileage warranty on your Leaf when doing the long trips. Not to mention, the complexity and bulkiness of the whole arrangement. Insane.

    OR …. You could just get a Volt and be done with it.
    If this company makes it, I’ll eat my Volt.


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    Spin

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:20 pm)

    Too big
    Too expensive
    Too heavy
    Too complicated

    I am sure most folks could get by with something not self propelled, half the weight and 1/5 the cost, utilizing the vehicle batteries as a buffer. Range of the vehicle would probably be doubled, and you could stop anywhere and recharge.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:24 pm)

    kent beuchert: For $15,000 why not simply buy an ICE for trips.

    Insurance?


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    Charlie H

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:34 pm)

    MDDave: How does one add lightness???  (Quote)  (Reply)

    1) Minimize unnecessary features… like self-propulsion. The car has propulsion; you don’t need two systems to provide one function.
    2) Engineering.
    3) Materials.

    The LongRanger only weighs about 300lbs… that’s the target point. And it’s a low-volume exercise; it’s likely a team of Detroit engineers with real funding could do better.


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    DonC

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:35 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: One of my favorite Thoughts for the Day:

    Still the best I’ve seen. If you have time to develop the story then something like the “Beautiful Car” ad works but that’s a story. This just works by itself.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:42 pm)

    Dave G: The problem is that he lives 200 miles away. Your daughter’s soccer game tomorrow is far away from home, so your wife needs the other car.

    Out of curiosity, how many car leasing agencies are there within 10 miles of your house? Leasing is a simple solution. Or a plane.

    I’m not arguing with you, but the usefulness of an EREV doesn’t depend on this type of somewhat dire scenario. Maybe you just don’t want to worry about the range limitations of your BEV even if you would rarely if ever exceed it. In this regard, since a lot of people will be afraid to use all of the BEV’s range, I wonder if the actual range of the Volt isn’t about the same as the Leaf’s.


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    Newport

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (1:51 pm)

    Please do not allow political ads on this website. Keep politics our of this celebration of American technology. One for Martin Heinrich came up for me, and he is left of Carl Marx.


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    Matthew_B

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (2:02 pm)

    jscott1: Yes, I have an auto transport trailer and it’s triple taxed. I have to pay the tax for the tow vehicle, plus the trailer, plus the tax on the car it’s assumed to be carrying, even if it never leaves the yard the entire year. So trailers are big money makers for the state.

    Try truck campers…. the registration on mine is $185. It doesn’t have wheels, and sits on a registered truck. I could put 5,000lbs of rock in there and it’s fine. But put a camper on and it’s taxed heavily.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    Newport: Please do not allow political ads on this website.Keep politics our of this celebration of American technology. One for Martin Heinrich came up for me, and he is left of Carl Marx.    

    The ads are based on google ad sense. They match ads with website content.

    By you using her name, you’re going to get more. Now her opponent will be advertised. And then me quoting you…. more yet.


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    Dave G

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (2:06 pm)

    DonC: Out of curiosity, how many car leasing agencies are there within 10 miles of your house? Leasing is a simple solution.

    After 10pm, none are open, at least none near me.

    That was sort of my point with this example. You may have to go somewhere unexpectedly late at night or early in the morning.

    And even if there was a place open nearby, you would much rather not have to spend the extra 45 minutes driving to the rental car place, renting the car, checking the car out, and then driving back to your route.


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    Ric Barline

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (2:10 pm)

    So if I hook this up to my LEAF does it change from a BEV to a series-hybrid? :~)


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (2:24 pm)

    DonC: Maybe you just don’t want to worry about the range limitations of your BEV even if you would rarely if ever exceed it.

    Yes, the necessity to drive beyond the range of a pure BEV would be somewhat rare, but those rare occurrences tend to be important occasions. So I believe range anxiety is a real issue, not some unfounded fear.


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    unni

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (2:48 pm)

    Nelson: unni,

    Did you consider the weight difference between the 1.4 ltr 4cyl and the 500cc, 2 cyl?
    “30 – 35 mpg on trailer” sounds like added drag to me.

    not sure on aerodynamics , bue below is the image of it.

    I think Honda is going to reveal PHEVs soon

    tzerotrailer.gif


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    Ibraheem Kareem

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (2:56 pm)

    I registered for your Forum but my account was deleted because I didn’t meet your membership requirements.

    Is it because I don’t own a Chevrolet Volt yet? I’m currently in the process of ordering one. But why can’t I at least interact in the discussion on your forums?


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    James

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (3:06 pm)

    I was with DaveK in wondering what the Volt looks like in white. White is one of my favorite car colors, esp. white with a tad of pearl or pearlescence in it. So far, it’s been pretty hard to find a shot of Volt in white unless it’s the few shots of one in China, or an Ampera in Europe…So I was happy to find this video – finally – clear shots of a Volt in all it’s white glory in the wild! I think it looks stunning, but perhaps the rear dark glass hatch treatment looks a bit better on the white Ampera than Volt, IMHO. Also I joked with GM employees at the Unplugged drive, that many owners of light-colored Volts would have a paint shop paint a charcoal grey stripe matching the lower side fascia panel at the wheel wells across the lower edges of the doors to avoid the hanging door look of the stock car, or more like the show Volts prior to PPV models.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J4veKnLOr8&feature=related

    Enjoy, DaveK!

    GM announced it would be selling the Chevy Volt in Europe at Chevrolet dealers in direct competition with the Opel Ampera. I was wondering if Lyle picked up on this – and if he could talk to GM people about it and shed some more light on this decision. I’m sure the folks at Opel aren’t very fond of this idea! Also – how many Volts off the line are going to be skimmed off for Europe?

    Also – here is the first video I have seen of a review of Volt vs. Leaf wherein the cars were ACTUALLY sitting right next to one another – interesting comparo. Let me know what you think.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfjzXId4hRc

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    Tagamet

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (3:08 pm)

    bookdabook:
    Nuff said. On to the next topic Lyle.Off topic. Nasaman’s video inspired me to download my own test drive video in which I get the Volt up to 73 mph on a straight-away in San Diego. This inspired the GM engineer riding to say “This car is no slouch!” after my left turn fishtail.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehrtlWEGESACheck it out.-Book    

    Nice drive, BOOK! We *really* need to keep you and nasaman out of the same car (lol).

    Is there a way to download YouTube videos?
    TIA

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Tagamet

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (3:11 pm)

    Ibraheem Kareem: I registered for your Forum but my account was deleted because I didn’t meet your membership requirements.Is it because I don’t own a Chevrolet Volt yet? I’m currently in the process of ordering one. But why can’t I at least interact in the discussion on your forums?    

    You need to have an email account.
    Hope this helps,
    Tagamet


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    James

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (3:26 pm)

    DaveK, hey what’dya know, here’s a white Volt inside at night under the lights and it indeed is slightly pearl white metallic!

    Who knew?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2rjsvLZU_I&feature=related

    I like! I think I’m going to go with the White Diamond Tricoat and the Light Neutral/gray seats with gray center stack*. Second choice would be black/charcoal leather – probably the more common choice with white.

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ,

    James

    * when they’re avail here


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    GM Volt Fan

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (3:34 pm)

    With every new article I read about the Volt powertrain since GM started revealing more about it, the more impressed I am with the Volt development team. Every one of them. The computer guys especially. They’re really done a good job. I hope their baby, the Volt, sells like crazy in the next couple of years.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20021346-54.html


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    Loboc

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (3:35 pm)

    unni:
    not sure on aerodynamics , bue below is the image of it.I think Honda is going to reveal PHEVs soon
        

    So, like, take the wheels off, turn it around and bolt it to the rear deck of the car.

    A lot of people have said that they would like a ‘removable’ genset to not haul that weight around except when needed.


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    Tagamet

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (3:37 pm)

    GM Volt Fan: With every new article I read about the Volt powertrain since GM started revealing more about it, the more impressed I am with the Volt development team.Every one of them.The computer guys especially.They’re really done a good job.I hope their baby, the Volt, sells like crazy in the next couple of years.http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20021346-54.html    

    AMEN! +10 I hope that some of them stuck around for Gen II! Gen I is going to be a very tough act to follow.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    MichaelH

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (5:01 pm)

    Baltimore17: manual

    HelmInc dot com -> $25 + shipping + handling = $40.97


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    nasaman

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    I just noticed the article at the top of this thread includes a couple of photos showing the Power Regeneration Unit (PRU) with its top raised. There seems to be quite a bit of space inside to haul luggage, tent(s), etc —maybe almost 1/2 of the trailer? To me, that’s a real plus because its “self-propelled” feature should minimize impact on overall MPG, plus the fact it’s not adding to the car’s aero drag like a car-top carrier would, sheds a whole new light on it. So its success could hinge on whether any BEV makers allow use of an after-market class I hitch. Its $15k price tag may not deter high-end BEV buyers considering Telsa Roadster or Class S BEVs —or forthcoming BMW BEV offerings.


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    Larry

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (5:50 pm)

    I think many people missed the point – It doesn’t supply electric power to the car, it extends range by PUSHING the car along when it gets above some speed. I’m sure it will use the brake signal quit pushing and help brake when the driver wants to slow down. Neat idea, but I would rather not read about it unless someone has made a working prototype first.

    – It works as a trailer, but that makes it too big for people who don’t need a trailer
    – It works as a 25KW AC generator, but that adds cost for people who don’t need to power a house
    – It works as a range extended to a pure EV, but at more incremental cost than buying a pure EREV
    – It costs as much as a really nice used car.
    *** Jack of all trades, but master of none ** IMHO ;)


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    Matthew_B

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (5:52 pm)

    Tagamet: Is there a way to download YouTube videos?

    http://www.downloadhelper.net/

    They are in a “war” with youtube. Youtube will take action to stop them, and then downloadhelper will fix it and make it work again. If it doesn’t work, then try again after a day or two.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (5:56 pm)

    GM Volt Fan: With every new article I read about the Volt powertrain since GM started revealing more about it, the more impressed I am with the Volt development team. Every one of them. The computer guys especially. They’re really done a good job. I hope their baby, the Volt, sells like crazy in the next couple of years.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20021346-54.html

    Your link is an interesting article. My Volt test drive this weekend was hosted by GM Mechanical Engineer Rob Parrish, a personable as well as very knowledgeable guy. Rob confirmed one of the key points of the article: that perhaps one of the largest & most challenging tasks in developing the Volt was in developing the software —millions of lines of code (GM says an F-35 jet fighter has 6 million lines of code but the Volt has much, much more). But Rob Parrish agreed with me that, now that enormous body of code exists, future applications of Voltec should be much easier.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:07 pm)

    Loboc: 10Kw with a battery for extra surge would work for small to medium houses. It’s the surge load of things starting up (like a/c, freezer, refrigerator motors). Once they start, they use a lot less power than the initial kick.Here’s one for a 200-amp power entrance:http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgg/R-100661780/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Very true. 3kw is more than enough average power for most homes and 15kw is more than enough “short term” power (not including transients for motor turn-on, etc). This is why I think the Volt makes a perfect V2Home emergency power solution.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:21 pm)

    Ric Barline: So if I hook this up to my LEAF does it change from a BEV to a series-hybrid? :~)  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Technically a series, series-parallel if there is some torque assist through the wheels in some occasions. Kind of crystallizes why all of the broo-ha-ha about the Volts classification and EV legitamacy was just a bunch of unimportant semantic hoooey.


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    James

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:23 pm)

    Just reading the forums – GE’s CEO announces the largest car order in history – says they’ll order “tens of thousands” of electric powered vehicles starting next week.

    Hamtramck – BETTER BEGIN PLANNING TWO MORE SHIFTS, MAN!

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39936563/ns/business-motley_fool/

    Holy Guacamole!

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James

    Any doubt what tomorrow’s subject matter will be?


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    Tagamet

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:34 pm)

    Matthew_B:
    http://www.downloadhelper.net/They are in a “war” with youtube.Youtube will take action to stop them, and then downloadhelper will fix it and make it work again.If it doesn’t work, then try again after a day or two.    

    THANKS!

    Be well (and VOTE),
    Tagamet


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    Dave K.

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:38 pm)

    James: …hey what’dya know, here’s a white Volt…

    The Volt looks fine in white. Am torn between red with painted wheels. And black with polished wheels. Red paint ties the rear reflectors and tail lights into the flow of the car. Black highlights the glossy roof and side window strips.

    kdawg: Its going to take some time to get people educated.

    True, but folks biased against EV will be the last to buy anyway. People with friends who drive EV will be most interested. Word of mouth, media coverage, and dealer demo units are plenty for 6 months.
    May of 2011 is when GM needs to step up exposure to the rest of the public (the World). Still, with only 65,000 units to deliver in the next 14 months. GM will be hitting their production rate head on the ceiling by late Summer 2011. Leaving 7 or 8 months of forward sales time remaining.

    =D-Volt


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    Xioaiwe1

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (6:50 pm)

    so, you can pay 15k for a range extender to attach to your electric car, or you can buy a small second car to use for long trips and not worry about a trailer (both being 15k in price)… isn’t this why the Volt has a generator build it? Pay the extra 15k and just get a volt with all the trimmings.

    Honestly, I can’t see were the 15k is actually sitting in this trailer – it may actually cost 15k, but I cant see my moneys worth. There is no need to be self propelled or have a lithium battery as you will only attach this thing if you actually intend on using it. You should have an on off switch (or remote control) in the car and be done with it. The generator simply makes electricity for the car to use.

    I do see the problem of cars not actually having an extension lead hanging out the back and the car allowing you to plug it in and drive at the same time, so modification will also be required, but all up you would save at least 10k by having some rewiring and a simplified mass produced trailer. The extra trailer space however would be useful.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:04 pm)

    I thought the same thing – U-Haul or even Hertz/Avis could rent these for those BEV owners that wanted to take that once-a-year trip, using their own car… But then I thought “why rent only a trailer when you can rent an entire car – sparing your BEV wear & tear – for not much more”

    dantonj: dantonj


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    redeye

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:08 pm)

    Cool. !

    I hope they do well.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:08 pm)

    I thought the same thing – U-Haul or even Hertz/Avis could rent these for those BEV owners that wanted to take that once-a-year trip, using their own car… But then I thought “why rent only a trailer when you can rent an entire car – sparing your BEV wear & tear – for not much more”

    dantonj: I’m not sure how many people will buy this.
    However, I can see U-Haul or others buying it and then renting it to people planning on driving long distances. Just make sure it can carry additional cargo/luggage.


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    Eco_Turbo

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:13 pm)

    I was able to drive a Volt in downtown Raleigh traffic today. The escort missed a turn on the route, so she put the address into the NAV and it took us right back to the start point. Can’t do much more than ditto all the other drive impressions. Someone from Progress Energy did say that at least part of NC will be a Tier II release area. Here’s a white Volt from the drive, maybe the same one that was in the video above.

    Volt_White.jpg


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    ClarksonCote

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (7:36 pm)

    James: Just reading the forums – GE’s CEO announces the largest car order in history – says they’ll order “tens of thousands” of electric powered vehicles starting next week.Hamtramck – BETTER BEGIN PLANNING TWO MORE SHIFTS, MAN!http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39936563/ns/business-motley_fool/Holy Guacamole! PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),JamesAny doubt what tomorrow’s subject matter will be?    

    Haha, I actually quoted that story in a post I made a few days ago… Either got lost in the weeds, or there’s too many other goodies right now for it to make a daily post. :)

    join thE REVolution


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    Dave K.

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:15 pm)

    voltquarterview.jpg?t=1288660481


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    Roy H

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:16 pm)

    Matthew_B:
    Try truck campers…. the registration on mine is $185.It doesn’t have wheels, and sits on a registered truck.I could put 5,000lbs of rock in there and it’s fine.But put a camper on and it’s taxed heavily.    

    Don’t worry, they’ll figure out how to tax the rocks someday…


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    Roy H

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (8:50 pm)

    This certainly produces more questions than answers.
    Some have stated that this will not plug into the car to charge it, that it is a pusher. I don’t see enough information to come to this conclusion.
    Chevy has sized the generator in the Volt at 53kW because they researched, and decided this was the required size, any smaller means it will not be able to continually drive at highway speeds.
    Why does it have its own batteries? If it hooks up to the cars electrical system, then using the car batteries makes much more sense. A point to support those who say this trailer is just a pusher and does not charge the car’s batteries.
    Pushing is inherently unsafe, makes the car over-steer especially in slippery conditions. If it is just a pusher, then the BEV it is pushing will die anyway, no power steering, air conditioning etc.

    The whole concept is ill-conceived, dangerous, polluting, over-priced, and I sincerely hope dies on the drawing table before someone looses money investing in this ridiculous idea.


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:42 pm)

    nasaman:
    Your link is an interesting article. My Volt test drive this weekend was hosted by GM Mechanical Engineer Rob Parrish, a personable as well as very knowledgeable guy. Rob confirmed one of the key points of the article: that perhaps one of the largest & most challenging tasks in developing the Volt was in developing the software —millions of lines of code (GM says an F-35 jet fighter has 6 million lines of code but the Volt has much, much more). But Rob Parrish agreed with me that, now that enormous body of code exists, future applications of Voltec should be much easier.    

    10 million lines of code in Volt. More than the 787 Dreamliner.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjjASGV36mw

    Volt really is a datacenter on wheels.


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    scottf200

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (9:42 pm)

    CorvetteGuy:
    We should bomb the new ad agency with emails to get them to start the “Extended Range Electric Vehicle” ads as soon as possible. The ‘education’ should have started months ago.    

    There was a nice article it the Chicago Tribune this past Sunday. I found the one on web but the news paper one was much nicer. Had ‘Plug it in’ in large bold letters. Large picture of the volt and a nice picture of How the Volt works with parts labeled.

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-10-28/classified/sc-cons-1028-autocover-volt-20101028_1_chevrolet-volt-electric-hybrid-cars-lithium-ion-battery-pack


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    bookdabook

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:00 pm)

    DonC: I see from the video that you’re the guy who cut in front of me in the line! That was OK, I’m mellow

    Don C- You sure you weren’t in the walk-up group? Anyway, we all eventually got to drive. Hope to see you again sometime at a future SD Volt rally!

    -Book


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    Dave K.

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:12 pm)

    Voltblackblack.jpg?t=1288667490


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    Sal MBA

     

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:30 pm)

    Put a fold up tent on top, and now you got it all.


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    caldoodlevolt

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    Nov 1st, 2010 (10:55 pm)

    Wow! What a gadget that generator trailer is. Don’t think I’ll need one for my Volt but I won’t belly ache. The more people working to electrify land transportation, even with Rube Goldberg as Chief Engineer, the better. Some ideas of course will never get off the ground, but some will, so I say good luck to all in their design and testing facilities.

    On a more practical note; once we get the auto industry straightened out with electrons I hope some of the ideas could switch over to the railroads. I don’t see why diesel-electric locomotives (many made by GM) could not be replaced by pure electrics (using a third rail or overhead connection like in Europe and not have to worry about that darn battery). More bad news for OPEC.

    BIG BTRY


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    Nov 1st, 2010 (11:55 pm)

    James: I like! I think I’m going to go with the White Diamond Tricoat and the Light Neutral/gray seats with gray center stack*. Second choice would be black/charcoal leather – probably the more common choice with white.

    I ordered mine with white diamond, black console and tan leather seats. My Volt Advisor said that was her favorite combo … but maybe she just being nice. Can’t wait!

    -Book


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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (12:27 am)

    bookdabook: Don C- You sure you weren’t in the walk-up group?

    No the walk up line was long and to the left of us. Yikes it was long! We had the same time and as you went down the line you ever so artfully cut ahead of me and asked what time I had. I was fine with it since I was with a friend who had the next time slot. No big deal.

    I just recognized the yellow shirt and jeans from the video and recognized the line jumper. (Only kidding).


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    ed

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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (1:06 am)

    This sounds like a real good idea for extending mileage, Don’t be too judgemental or you’ll sound like those who rail against the Volt


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    Mark Z

     

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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (1:31 am)

    Dave G: For pure BEVs, the “other car” strategy has 2 major flaws.

    I was referring to the generator in today’s topic and those who were suggesting renting one. Rather than renting the generator, go to the car rental folks and rent the perfect car for your vacation.

    I agree with your post. You never know when unannounced change of plans occur require extra range. Parking the BEV and calling a cab is one solution. Driving a Volt provides flexibility that is priceless when emergencies occur.


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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (3:41 am)

    ziv,

    My apartment fuse capacity 15 KW. This diesel generator would be far enough for laundry, dish-washing and even heating.


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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (8:03 am)

    I didn’t read all the comments, but what I like about this is that if this product is working as described, that mean that we can now think about having a small EV for the daily commute. And when we want to go out of town for a little trip, we can rent this range extender / storage trailer. Once that you’re at you cottage/camping, you can leave the device there do your daily comute in all electric mode.
    Also, they should think about a smaller version without the diesel. This could be an electric range extender that you can exchange on the road when you stop to recharge. Or you can simply leave it in your garage charging and use it as a back up battery for unexpected commute or to go beyond the car range.
    Good stuff !


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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (1:39 pm)

    This looks like the solution for the EV fanatic to whom burning any gas is anathema (if it is burned in a Volt). ;-)

    Vincent: Also, they should think about a smaller version without the diesel. This could be an electric range extender that you can exchange on the road when you stop to recharge. Or you can simply leave it in your garage charging and use it as a back up battery for unexpected commute or to go beyond the car range.

    … This would amount to taking an extra Li/Ion pack, putting it on a trailer, and somehow connecting it to the car’s electronics. The pack is the single most expensive part of any EV. To double an EV’s range, the cost could well exceed $15,000. It would also require the EV to have an interface for it’s native DC voltage.

    There would be enough differences between EV models (such as native voltage) to make universal application (as described for this trailer) impossible:

    `The cost of the unit is expected to be $15,000 and according to EMAV is designed to work with any electric vehicle. “It will be able to interact with any electric car,” said Cashen. “We are making the technology brand agnostic, and will have fits for all manufacturer’s models”`


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    Russ Binder

     

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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (6:19 pm)

    MDDave,

    Adding LIGHTNESS is SO EASY. C’mon. Don’cha just fill ‘er up with helium? And to save space, use COMPRESSED helium. Maybe 2-3 tons of helium would “lighten” it up to the point it would equal out the “heavy” weight. And if you let the helium out the back just fast enough, it’ll propel the trailer enough to equal out the drag. This’ll work, right? Don’t need no fancy equations and physics here, just add some lightness and delete some slowness. Done!

    Or, not….


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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (6:45 pm)

    unni:
    not sure on aerodynamics , bue below is the image of it.I think Honda is going to reveal PHEVs soon
        

    This picture is about 10 years old. Even then, the trailer incorporated concepts and technology that are still ahead of the industry today. AC Propulsion has evolved greatly since then, and invites you to learn more about our more recent and current projects by visiting our website at http://www.acpropulsion.com.

    Thanks to UNNI for remembering us and posting the picture.


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    Helmut

     

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    Nov 2nd, 2010 (7:39 pm)

    Wow, this is a huge leap forward, but I can’t but think that if they moved the diesel engine inside of the car, they could possibly remove the electric drivetrain, reduce losses and weight and have an overall more efficient and less costly vehicle. Progress is progress though, we’ll have to wait and see if the automakers catch on and develop some sort of car that can use diesel, or possibly even gasoline to directly power their cars.


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    Sean

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    Nov 3rd, 2010 (4:42 am)

    How about an electric range extender trailer instead of a gas or diesel extender so we can get more electric range without having to worry about fossil fuels so you can travel further than 40 or 100 miles by extending it to 400 or 500 miles in range now that would be sweet!


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    Nov 5th, 2010 (8:16 pm)

    I see this as more of a rescue device for Leaves that attempt 101 miles on the battery. I’m not sure I’d rent one for a trip. You might as well just rent a Honda Fit.


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    Mggm

     

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    Nov 13th, 2010 (11:17 am)

    Murrcar,

    Murrcar,

    Why should it be? Working at constant or nearly constant load it could be optimised for low emissions.


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    Nov 13th, 2010 (11:22 am)

    Sean,

    if there were a 500 miles battery which were light enough, they might put it in the car… reality is that it would weigh as much as the car, today we talk less than 200W/kg. Not to mention the time to charge such a beast… The idea is not bad, probably it is too early to benefit from battery mass production and the complexity of having self propulsion is a killer. Of course on a slope it probably needs it.


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    Mazie Kirkley

     

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    Nov 21st, 2010 (7:42 am)

    Just a small smiler to spread the good words and thank you for your great site

    What we anticipate seldom occurs; what we least expect generally happens. :)