Oct 26

Chevrolet Volt Will Utilize 10.4 KWH of Battery to Achieve EV Range

 


[ad#post_ad]At the recent Chevrolet Volt launch GM finally let the skeletons out of the closets and exposed all of the Volt’s closely guarded secrets. Among them is the fact that engineers have chosen to use much more of the battery’s stored energy than initially beleived.

We had believed for years based on GM statements, that the car would only draw a total of 8 kwh of energy from the 16 kwh battery pack to deliver the 40 miles of EV range. The idea was considerable excess buffer existed in the pack to let it deteriorate over time without sacrificing range.

Through the years of development GM became more comfortable with drawing more deeply from the pack, finding the properly-conditioned cells could handle it. Even with a deeper band of energy use, GM felt it could meet the warranty goal of 8 years/100,000 miles. Also, though executives and engineers won’t overtly admit it, it seems they needed more energy than initially believed to the acheive the goal EV range.

This first came out when we recently learned the Volt would use more than 8 kwh.

Now GM finally admits the Volt will actually use 65% of the total energy storage capacity of the battery. That amounts to 10.4 kwh.

The engine generator will turn on once the battery hits somewhere between 20% and 25% state of charge, which equates to 25 to 50 miles of EV driving. When fully recharged, the battery will acutally be kept at a maximum 85% to 90% state of charge.

As the battery ages and energy storage capacity of the lithium-ion cells degrades, control units will widen the percent state of charge band to continue to deliver the range goal.

By 8 years/100,000 mile when the battery warranty ends, GM expects the car’s range to be reduced by 10 to 30 percent in the worst case. Some customers will experience less degradation. The car can continue to drive beyond that point, but range will continue to contract.

It was recently reported that the California Air Resources Board (CARB) classified the Volt as a ultra-low emissions vehicle or ULEV. This is the same as a 1.8L Honda Civic, for example. Less carbon emitting and more stringent designations include (super) SULEV, and advanced technology partial zero emission vehicle (AT-PZEV) given to the Prius and Insight. The most stringent is the zero-emission (ZEV) designation given to pure electric cars.

The ULEV designation does not, however, take into account the Volt’s electric driving operation, it only looks at the charge sustaining mode operation. GM will seek a new (enhanced) EAT-PZEV status next model year, by offering the required 10 year/150,000 mile warranty that CARB wants to consider electric operation. To achieve that warranty, apparently “certain kinks” have to be worked out Volt director Tony Posawatz told the Times.


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This entry was posted on Tuesday, October 26th, 2010 at 6:20 am and is filed under Battery. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 299


  1. 1
    Eco_Turbo

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:36 am)

    I look forward to the discussion on what the “Kinks” might be, that’s the best part of this website. Of course if this is information GM could share, that would be even better, I just love learning how things work.


  2. 2
    Raymondjram

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:36 am)

    (click to show comment)


  3. 3
    Jim I

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:37 am)

    OK, so what are those kinks???

    And how does this new battery usage compare with what the Leaf is using from their pack?

    In reality, I don’t care how much of the pack is used, as long as it will last the life of the car, which I guess now is 8 years. The only problem is that with an 8 year old pack, the car will not have much of a resale value…..

    NPNS


  4. 4
    Exp_EngTech

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:38 am)

    I’m shocked !


  5. 5
    Jerry Arzt

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:53 am)

    So, the Volt warranty will go up to 10 yrs/ 150,000 miles “next model year” presumably at the end of 2011, or the beginning of 2012. Now, if they can also drop the price a few thousand dollars as well, I might reconsider getting one. My original benchmarks for buying a Volt were a price (after rebate) below $30,000 and a battery warranty of 150,000 miles. If GM wants the Volt to be a truly mass market car sometime in the future, I suspect they realize they will have to meet these criteria, or come very close.


  6. 6
    Eco_Turbo

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:54 am)

    As a veteran field service technician, the only thing I enjoy more than learning how things work is keeping them working that way.


  7. 7
    JeremyK

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:55 am)

    I agree, it sounds like the Volt had more ancillary drains than originally predicted, though I doubt those loads required the full 2.4kWh of capacity that is now available. Clearly, the idea is to use as much of the battery as possible without affecting its calendar life expectancy. It sounds like 40 mile AER will be typical, not max under these new parameters.

    I’m still very very curious to see how the Leaf’s batteries will perform while operating under much more extreme temperatures and states of charge than the Volt pack. It goes against everything I’ve learned about Li batteries…but it’s good to see them pushing the envelope.


  8. 8
    mikeinatl.

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:56 am)

    I know this is mostly a GM fan site and this is WAY off the thread, but congratulations to Ford for turning in some spectacular profit numbers this year. Great management and American know-how does work.


  9. 9
    True That

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:02 am)

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    Eco_Turbo

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:02 am)

    Could Ford’s profit numbers be related to how much they do or have done outside the USA?


  11. 11
    Kingofl337

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:04 am)

    To guess about what will and won’t happen with the battery in 8 years from now is premature. For all we know, you may be able to purchase a refurbished pack on the cheap in 8 years.


  12. 12
    JeremyK

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:04 am)

    Jim I: OK, so what are those kinks???And how does this new battery usage compare with what the Leaf is using from their pack?In reality, I don’t care how much of the pack is used, as long as it will last the life of the car, which I guess now is 8 years.The only problem is that with an 8 year old pack, the car will not have much of a resale value…..NPNS    

    I think the life of the pack is still TBD. Eight years is the warranty, not the life expectancy of the pack. My last car had a 3 year, 50,000 mile warranty. It’s now been over 5 years and 80,000 miles and I’m still driving it with no problems.

    Internally, GM targets 150,000 miles as the life expectancy of the vehicle and all the components are designed and tested around that target. GM has already stated that the Volt packs will have significant power and capacity even when their useful life in the Volt is over.

    Even if the AER of the pack were to drop to 20 miles after 10 years. One’s composite fuel economy would still be pretty darn good.

    I agree, the resale value of the Volt will be significantly affected by how the packs are performing at 5 years, or 8 years, etc….The only thing I would be willing to speculate on right now is that the Volt pack will be MUCH MUCH MUCH healthier at 8 years than the Leaf pack based on the battery designs and SOC differences between the two vehicles.


  13. 13
    nasaman

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:08 am)

    I’m not at all concerned that 65% of the capacity is now used. In fact, based on my 15 years as a hi-rel, long-life spacecraft battery specialist, I’ve always been somewhat mystified that GM & LG Chem decided on the original 50% number. In fact, space-qualified 15-20 year batteries routinely employ full discharges (to 0%!) as well as full charging (to 100%, called “rollover”) as the means
    of “resetting” individual cells to 1) avoid cell reversals during discharge and 2) maximize battery capacity by matching cell voltages.

    So I have long believed GM would have the design latitude to completely offset any capacity degradation with time by increasing both the cell charge levels and DOD (depth-of-discharge). The Leaf’s Li-Ion battery already uses a much larger percentage of it capacity —and it has inferior thermal control. Since high temperature exposure is the primary capacity degradation factor, and Nissan had to take extended hours of blazingly hot black parking lot asphalt exposure into account, I’m fully confident the Volt’s 8yr-100k mile battery will outlast the Leaf’s 8yr-100k mile battery, as I’ve said here more than once!


  14. 14
    Dave G

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:10 am)

    So if I end up buying the Volt, it looks like it would be better to wait until the 2013 model year.

    By that time maybe the Volt should have some competition from other plug-ins. Maybe things will look a little different by then.


  15. 15
    JeremyK

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:11 am)

    True That: Yes, NOW we finally know the truth and basically how ill-conceived this Volt really was. Even the T-shaped battery is poorly designed and takes considerable interior space when compared to the other EVs out there. Makes one wonder if this car is really worth that $41K sticker. I would be willing to bet that the Prius and LEAF greatly outsell the Volt every year.Hopefully GM learns from the many mistakes on the Volt and takes some clues from the more advanced EVs to produce a much better second gen Volt. But I have my doubts as they are already making excuses for not having other voltec hybrids ready.
    With MPG in the mid to low thirtes and max range of 40 miles this car looks week compared to the many 100+ range EVs that will soon hit our shores.Like someone very smart once said “It may be time to bitch-slap a Volt owner since they deserve it on so many levels.”    

    I know, I shouldn’t feed the trolls…But here is part of an announcement that GM is going to release today. Sounds like GM might is still investing in hybrids and EVs to me.

    “GM is expected to announce a $152 million investment in Michigan, including $112 million at the Warren Technical Center for hybrid and electric vehicle programs, adding up to 900 jobs, said a source familiar with the plans.”

    From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20101026/AUTO01/10260323/Big-3-to-invest-$2B-in-Michigan#ixzz13SxKVMjc


  16. 16
    JohnK

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:13 am)

    Eco_Turbo: I just love learning how things work.

    I agree. However, it does seem tat some things that we thought we had learned have been somewhat misleading. I do hope that someone with access to the truth will capture the birth of the Volt in a book. Of course if anyone could it would be Lyle, but that might be a big time commitment.


  17. 17
    Robert

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:13 am)

    So if CSmode starts at 20 to 25% how deep can it be discharged? For those people in CS mode a lot that lower range of the battery will be getting the biggest workout.
    I’m guessing this larger range of battery usage is the reason they added the mountain mode so late in development, they realized they needed to use more of the battery and figured since most people wouldn’t need all the extra battery to climb big mountains, they could call the old setting mountain mode, and dive deeper into the battery by default.


  18. 18
    nasaman

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:15 am)

    PS to my post #13: I’m equally confident GM will be able to extend the battery warranty to meet California requirements: 10yrs-150k miles. However, I strongly feel that CARB is both unfair and unreasonable in NOT taking the Volt’s EV mode into account!!!


  19. 19
    mmcc

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:20 am)

    So now it will cost me 67 cents for a full charge vs. 52 cents before. No biggie.


  20. 20
    James

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:21 am)

    Some will see this as yet another disappointment and one more letdown vs. claims made along the developemental path. For me, knowing GM was erring on the conservative side to protect the pack is encouraging. Thousands of miles of testing in all temperatures proved the current genset to be less efficient than predicted, and that’s expected, since it’s an off-the-shelf solution. Increasing the total AER capability by decreasing the buffer shows just how badly GM wanted Volt to make an impact. To me the extra 10 – 17 miles of range on the upside is worth the cost jof a year or two getting 90-95% battery performance. Gravity and wind resistence are proving worthy foes.

    The mileage game seems to always take a toll somewhere along the efficiency/dollar ratio. For instance, all forums and fansites for Prius suggest higher air pressures in your tires to increase mileage. I run my tires at about 42psi. This actually does result in better mileage, but at the cost of a year or two of total tire life. Fighting the elements costs you somewhere along the line.

    What is truly impressive is that the Chevrolet Volt is taking on all challenges and making a very strong showing against physics, politics, naysayers and really has no equal. We cannot lose sight that it is accomplishing this even while in it’s first iteration!

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


  21. 21
    Tim Hart

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:22 am)

    I am confident that at the end of the useful life of the battery pack there will be a relatively inexpensive replacement option. And no doubt a major upgrade as well. Thanks again Lyle for your tireless efforts to keep us up to speed on all the latest.


  22. 22
    JohnK

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:23 am)

    Another thing about the Volt: I suspect that once it is in the hands of thousands of users we will find that the driving experience will validate all of these engineering decisions and trade-offs. The “Volt smile” will rule.


  23. 23
    JohnK

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:25 am)

    I agree with James. “Pump out those Volts.”


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:26 am)

    A bunch of Ford people must be checking in before work.


  25. 25
    Johnny A

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:27 am)

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  26. 26
    J Gordon

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:36 am)

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  27. 27
    tom w

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:44 am)

    I guess we know why the low numbers of production now, because after all it makes sense, there will be significant improvements in a year or two and most people will wait for those


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    Reginald Hampton III

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:47 am)

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    Alphonso Leon

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:55 am)

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  30. 30
    nasaman

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:59 am)

    WHAT IS THIS, “TROLL-A-THON TUESDAY”?!?!

    BEAM THESE UNWELCOME BASTARDS OUTTA HERE, SCOTTIE!

    /Bastard: a vicious, despicable, or thoroughly disliked person, aka the “Destructive God of Darkness”


  31. 31
    Mario

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:04 am)

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  32. 32
    SteveK9

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:06 am)

    Is something amiss with the ‘voting’ system on comments?


  33. 33
    James

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:07 am)

    mikeinatl.: I know this is mostly a GM fan site and this is WAY off the thread, but congratulations to Ford for turning in some spectacular profit numbers this year. Great management and American know-how does work.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Yes, congratulatons seem to be in order for Ford in the short term. After all they took huge risks taking out incredibly large loans to develop new product.

    Now for the voice of reason. Ford focused ( excuse the pun ) mainly on the short term. They developed direct-injection and turbocharging conventional ICE’s to achieve mileage benchmarks. This is neither going to get us off of oil, or boost Ford over the hump for very long. Dearborn cannot bask in all it’s profit glory because they failed to put much into their EV program and went the ultra cheapo route with their tepid EV Focus program which is neither on-track or revolutionary. By using an existing platform to electrify, they cut corners and will end up with an EV lacking trunk space and needed weight distribution. Add to that announced slowdowns for rollouts of TransitConnect EV and Focus EV and you have a recipe for a lot of pain and layoffs at Ford as they try to catch up when many car companies are set to leave them in the dust electrically. One 2008-esque gas hike, or blow up in the Middle East and Ford will have to ask Uncle Sam for some stimulus.

    Today’s profit numbers are decieving since Ford is facing a hike from nil to prime rate on the voluminous loans it took out in 2006 to get them where they are today-come January 2011. They seem to think hanging back and letting others do the heavy lifting is how one succeeds financially in the hybrid/EV world. They’ve been just a notch above Chrysler in EV development and although they’ve recently announced plans to break ground on battery development, they’re years away from GM, Nissan and Toyota and will probably have to license other’s technology as they did with their 1st gen hybrid Escape – and try to riff off of what they learned as with the hybrid Fusion.

    Electrification seems to be in high gear here and around the world and I believe Ford’s foot dragging, cautious approach will lead them to financial woe.

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


  34. 34
    Shock Me

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:08 am)

    I am greatly encouraged by these more realistic numbers. The key for me with the volt was the inclusion of a battery filled from the wall socket that powers most of my daily trips while at the same time providing a means to go farther when necessary.

    These numbers suggest to me that if the 40 AER can be maintained as batteries improve, then we will see lighter batteries and lighter, more efficient, smaller-displacement engines in other less-expensive VOLTEC models. The Volt can also then give us longer range all-electric battery-only models as the charging infrastructure improves.


  35. 35
    EricLG

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:12 am)

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  36. 36
    Homer Clyde Johnson

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:16 am)

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    Charlie H

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:18 am)

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    CorvetteGuy

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:19 am)

    Let them have their fun. Their ‘panic attacks’ merely underscore how much better the Volt is. With all of the car magazines doing Volt-Prius-Leaf comparisons in December, they need to lobby hard for their team. It’s sad really.


  39. 39
    JeremyK

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:25 am)

    EricLG:
    Shall I list other GM “targets” relating to the Volt, and how those played out ?    

    I’m simply stating what the internal benchmarks are here at GM. It’s not my opinion, just information. All of GM’s “powertrains” are designed and tested to 150,000 mile equivalent.

    Go ahead and list the targets Eric…if you’re that bored this morning.


  40. 40
    EricLG

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:29 am)

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    Jeff N

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:32 am)

    So after 10 years the Volt’s All Electric Range could be only double the AER of a brand new 2012 Plug-in Prius?

    OH NO, I’LL HAVE TO REPLACE THE BATTERY! :-)


  42. 42
    Promises Promises

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:33 am)

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  43. 43
    Nelson

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:38 am)

    What does the warranty have to do with emissions? The gen1 Volt is the only car that uses gas and has the potential to spew the least amount of tail pipe emissions of any gas powered car, even the Prius. It should at the least garner an (AT-PZEV) rating. What “certain kinks” am I missing?

    The Volt is the only TRUE DUAL FUEL VEHICLE!

    NPNS!


  44. 44
    CorvetteGuy

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:39 am)

    Here we go again. Troll-babies.

    trollbaby.jpg


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    EricLG

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:41 am)

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    Podunk

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:44 am)

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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:44 am)

    JeremyK: I think the life of the pack is still TBD. Eight years is the warranty, not the life expectancy of the pack. My last car had a 3 year, 50,000 mile warranty. It’s now been over 5 years and 80,000 miles and I’m still driving it with no problems.

    This is a good point. I’m thinking here about the now-ancient packs in RAV4-EVs out there that are still going strong. With all the extreme care GM is giving to the pack, it’s certainly not inconceivable that it could last a lot longer than the warranty.

    If it only degrades 10% (best case), heck, even some conventional cars lose that much efficiency in the same time & distance.


  48. 48
    Dave K.

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:44 am)

    Outstanding performance @ triple digit mpg. The Volt plugs into the nearest 120V wall outlet. Recharges at the cost of about $1. Provides 30 miles of performance driving or 40+ miles of moderate driving. Delivers 38mpg thereafter with the capacity to drive over 300 miles nonstop. Interior comfort and high tech features which rival many 4 door luxury sedans.

    Nissan just revealed that they have a new luxury sedan hybrid for sale with reported 45mpg efficiency. Cost $30,000 more than the fully loaded Volt. Looks like the extended range team at GM is doing a pretty good job.

    =D-Volt


  49. 49
    EricLG

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:45 am)

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    Flaninacupboard

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:46 am)

    Not entirely suprising, 200wh/mile was never a realistic figure. 260wh/mile seems more like it, but does prove the point the prius is more efficient, my lifetime average is ~215wh/mile (though there will be an error margin here for the petrol engine efficiency – it’s 204wh/mi at 30% and 237wh/mi at 35%)

    It will be very interesting to see the wh/mi is in the hands of a hypermiler.


  51. 51
    nasaman

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:48 am)

    trollbaby.jpg

    ALL OF THE ABOVE ….PLUS NEWBIES WHO’RE ACTUALLY TIRED OUT OLDIES TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE THEY’RE NEW BUT ARE ACTUALLY INCOGNITO!


  52. 52
    The Grump

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:49 am)

    And the trolls will keep coming until Lyle gets a pin / password system for this website, with one (1) login name per email address. Until then, one troll can post under a multitude of names, and even spoof long-time posters here, if they want. I warned Lyle before about this.

    I have mostly given up on posting here, due to the troll population. At least they’re not trying to sell Chinese knock-off merchandise here, like some do on the USAtoday website.


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    Angry Birds

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:58 am)

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    Dave4664

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:59 am)

    My Goodness!

    Such negativity from so many today!

    Look…..NOTHING LIKE THE VOLT HAS EVER BEEN DONE BEFORE. Of course there have been design changes along the way. What else would you expect? Do you think we landed on the moon with the very first designs we came up with? Of course not….changes take place along the way. As a veteran technician, I have worked on, and helped re-engineer some ill-conceived systems in my time. I have also enjoyed working on some brilliant engineering in my time. Following the progress of the Volt has been wonderful…I have discerned that there have been brilliant minds at work on this project. At first, I did not believe GM could, or would pull this off….like so many others, I had just about written GM off. But GM has impressed me very much with the Volt. ( And Malibu and Cruze ) The initial Volt design was obviously well thought out and robust….allowing for the many needed “tweeks” that are invariably needed as a product is tested and engineering progresses. This process you all have been witnessing is typical with any new technology.

    GM did the whole “Leaf” thing way back with the EV-1….. it’s time to move on to the next big thing…..THE VOLT!


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    James

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:06 am)

    Charlie H: A plan that worked. Ford could probably raise additional capital, if they wanted, to pursue new lines.GM… they went under, didn’t they? And talk aobut your sweetheart loan deals, GM got the Mother Of Them All, didn’t they. Now, we’re waiting to see how the market values GM, aren’t we? And GM can’t raise much in the way of new capital until Treasury sells off its shares, which puts GM in something of a bind, doesn’t it? Ford may have to pay extra interest on their loans but they are looking pretty good at this point and can probably get a decent interest rate if they refinance.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Nobody here will ever label me a “GM fanboy”, even though being critical of Ford can always be translated as such by some.

    Fact is, GM is looking rather rosey at IPO with tons of upside. I would never be guilty of giving GM a Mulligan after it’s historical reaming of America ( read: everything from the Great Electric Transit Conspiracy to EV-1 and all points in-between ), but today’s GM has managed to survive using innovation and cunning. Since when can Americans fault a major employer for shooting for the sky with innovation? It’s the American Way. GM has seemingly risen from the ashes – should we rename them “Phoenix Motorcars”? Oh, right – that’s been taken ( good luck with that electric truck, I hope you make it! ).

    Ford started out as an innovator – the Model T becoming an icon for mass production and an affordable horseless carraige for the masses. Today Ford’s lifeblood is the F-150, a nostalgia wave of baby boomers striving for youth with an antiquated Mustang – and very large debt incurred scratching out 22 mpg SUVs with less cylinders and tech borrowed from the Japanese. Tell me – how is that innovative? How will that save America from itself by reducing our oil addiction?

    Look around. The world is going electric – and it’s nearly shocking ( ok, again, excuse the pun ) how quickly it is happening.

    Bottom line: Akerson and GM are taking risks and taking names. Mullaly and Ford are being lauded for streamlining the company and making some bucks with some creative financing. He’s forgotten Ford’s innovative roots in the meantime and I think this may result in seeing Ford’s demise or drastic restructuring.

    I applaud Ford for avoiding public financing – but in their conservative approach they’ve set themselves far behind the curve.I feel if GM continues on it’s profitable path towards independence and industry-leading innovation – it will prove they not only have survived, but made all the right moves for America and regained their prowess as one of the world’s top car companies.

    Excellence over existence.

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    China Man

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:06 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:06 am)

    Eco_Turbo: Could Ford’s profit numbers be related to how much they do or have done outside the USA?    

    Ford’s success has a lot to do with pissed off rednecks.

    The biggest profit margin is on pickup trucks. Ford clears $10K on them. Ford has seen pickup sales shoot up while GM has watched them sink.

    I maintain it is a lot to do with the customer who buys pickups: they don’t like the GM bailout and don’t want to buy from “gubment” motors.


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    Matthew B

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:09 am)

    nasaman: In fact, space-qualified 15-20 year batteries routinely employ full discharges (to 0%!) as well as full charging (to 100%, called “rollover”)

    What is the chemistry you’re talking about?

    Li-ION does not like either. One cycle below “empty” will destroy a Li-ION battery as will over charge.


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    Loboc

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:10 am)

    So they raised the amount of battery that is used and they raised the AER to 50. This only makes it easier for the 60-mile club to succeed handsomely.

    What’s the big deal that brought out all the trolls? This is not exactly a new revelation.

    Oh wait, this makes existing hybrids that much more obsolete. It also means that Volt AER is impinging on LEAF’s range. So existing EVs also have an issue. Guess I answered my own question.

    /resume voting


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:11 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:16 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:28 am)

    Flaninacupboard: Not entirely suprising, 200wh/mile was never a realistic figure. 260wh/mile seems more like it, but does prove the point the prius is more efficient, my lifetime average is ~215wh/mile (though there will be an error margin here for the petrol engine efficiency – it’s 204wh/mi at 30% and 237wh/mi at 35%)It will be very interesting to see the wh/mi is in the hands of a hypermiler.    

    This makes no sense. How can 200wh/mile be ‘never a realistic figure’ when you also claim in the same breath that a 10-year-old design gets 215wh/mile?

    When I went to 3rd grade, 10.4/50 = 208 which is pretty close to 200.

    /how do you even measure wh/mile in a fully-parallel hybrid?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    Flaninacupboard: though there will be an error margin here for the petrol engine efficiency – it’s 204wh/mi at 30% and 237wh/mi at 35%

    Aren’t those numbers reversed? What is it at 25%? The engine drives the wheels and starts from 0 rpm. Max efficiency under ideal conditions, steady state on the bench is 37%.


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    Jim I

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:31 am)

    With all the wild negative votes being tossed around, I don’t really know what the general opinion is on this topic.

    IMHO, only giving it an 8 year / 100K mile warranty, will reduce the resale value of a nine year old car, unless there are some ways to test and prove the condition of the pack. And do we know for sure if the warranty is a “full” or a “pro-rated” warranty? It would make a difference.

    This car is dependent on the battery pack, and if the pack is at the lower limits of the ratings, it will affect the remaining value. To say anything else, is just being blind to the facts.

    Trying to say now what a replacement pack will cost in 8-10 years is about as accurate as predicting the weather for Christmas Day, 2010. We can make assumptions, but there are just too many variables to be anywhere near close.

    Does this mean I has lost faith in the Volt? Absolutely not. But it really makes the three year lease deal look a whole lot more attractive.

    Let’s not forget the this is Gen-1 of this vehicle type. Gens 2, 3, and 4 will be vastly improved, so why not be able to take advantage of those improvements?

    And I will ask this again. Does anyone really know how much of the battery pack is used by the Leaf? I would just like to make a comparison to the new Volt usage.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:31 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:37 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:41 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:47 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:52 am)

    EricLG: MHO, only giving it an 8 year / 100K mile warranty, will reduce the resale value of a nine year old car

    Pure BS. Resale value has nothing to do with the original warranty to the original owner. There is no correlation.

    Toyota’s powertrain warranty is 6/60000. And that doesn’t even cover the battery which is 36/36000. Are you saying that a used Prius is worth less than a used Volt because the warranty is less? Doubt you of all people would go there.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:57 am)

    EricLG:
    I don’t think Nissan has definitely said yet, but I think most will agree that up to 24 kwh is usable. Depending what you read, this is out of 26 -30 kwh total capacity. Works out to 240 wh/mile for EPA labeling which sounds reasonable.    

    ============================

    I thought the entire pack size of the Leaf was 24 kwh?

    That is what statik has listed on nissan-leaf.net


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    Hal

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:58 am)

    I have my test drive in DC on Saturday. Any questions ya’ll have for me to ask on your behalves?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:59 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:59 am)

    EricLG:
    I did not realize you worked at GM. Your quoted statement is very interesting. Can you say what fraction of a design have to meet spec to call it a success ?
    How often a design that did not meet spec is produced anyway ?
    How much a design has built-in buffer to meet spec ?    

    I don’t work in the validation and testing side of things, so I can’t say what “sigma” of the bell curve is accepted or what the B10 life targets are, etc. I just know that the powertrains are designed to last about 3 times what the warranty is. That doesn’t mean that the battery was designed to last 24 years or 300,000 miles…but it does show that GM is confident in the technology.

    Many of the so-called targets you refer to were with regard to the concept version of the Volt. Reality is much different than a concept, but that’s hard for some people to grasp.

    I’m with a lot of people that are somewhat disappointed that the CS mpg isn’t better, but that’s because I’m an engineer and love efficiency. It sucks to know that some technology was left on the table that could have achieved better efficiency. I’m sure it was left out for cost and timing reasons.

    The reality is that the mpg is CS mode isn’t going to change my cost of ownership significantly, because most of my driving will be within the AER. Somebody did the math here and decided that going with a lower cost engine at the expense of a few mpg was worth it. Only time and the marketplace will tell. Hopefully, if the wrong decision was made, it will be corrected in subsequent generations of the technology.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:03 am)

    Loboc: This makes no sense. How can 200wh/mile be ‘never a realistic figure’ when you also claim in the same breath that a 10-year-old design gets 215wh/mile?When I went to 3rd grade, 10.4/50 = 208 which is pretty close to 200./how do you even measure wh/mile in a fully-parallel hybrid?  (Quote)  (Reply)

    He’s assuming 30% or 35% of the total gasoline energy content makes it to the drive shaft to arrive at the numbers but they appear to be reversed to me. Also, since the max efficiency for the previous Prius model was 37% in ideal conditions on the bench, I’m skeptical of 30-35% being realistic.


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    evnow

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:06 am)

    Somewhat OT.

    NYT drives Volt & Leaf back to back. (not putting a link since that takes the post to moderation).

    But what the electric tour of Hell showed is that when it comes to ride and handling, these are real cars with different dynamic natures. The Volt is a pleasant cruiser and commuter, while the Leaf is more lively and may appeal more to a driving enthusiast, albeit a driving enthusiast on a leash.

    I’ve not driven Leaf, so can’t say much personally. Lyle indicated something similar comparing Leaf drive to that Mini-E (though cleverly not comparing to Volt directly). Chelsea thinks Volt is more fun to drive. I guess we will start getting more comparison reports …


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:09 am)

    Loboc:
    Pure BS. Resale value has nothing to do with the original warranty to the original owner. There is no correlation.Toyota’s powertrain warranty is 6/60000. And that doesn’t even cover the battery which is 36/36000. Are you saying that a used Prius is worth less than a used Volt because the warranty is less? Doubt you of all people would go there.    

    ===========================

    That statement was mine and I still defend it. Here is why:

    The Volt MUST have a working battery pack to function. If my car is nine years old, out of warranty, and the pack is at 60%, it WILL affect the resale value. The AER is just not there, and if the pack fails completely, the car can not be used. If the warranty was 10 years/150K miles, it could still be replaced, which would make the car more valuable.

    I do not know about how the Prius functions. If that small battery pack fails, can it still be driven? If the answer is yes, then you would still have a car that can function and that gets reasonable mileage, even without the battery assist.

    To its credit, the Prius has almost 10 years of experience behind it. In 10 years we can say the same about the Volt. But right now, it is an unknown………….


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:13 am)

    I hear the second GEN Volt will have a solar roof, flat battery, seats 5, 60 mile electric range, a motor cycle engine, 70 mpg, and no ICE to electric motor direct link. All those who have ordered a Volt should cancel your order and wait for GEN II – so my order can move up a notch. I’d like an early Christmas present! :)

    NPNS!


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:13 am)

    CorvetteGuy: With all of the car magazines doing Volt-Prius-Leaf comparisons in December, they need to lobby hard for their team.

    Here is my comparison. If you use Lease rates, Volt will do better.

    icehybridbev.png


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:15 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:21 am)

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    nasaman

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:22 am)

    Matthew B: nasaman: In fact, space-qualified 15-20 year batteries routinely employ full discharges (to 0%!) as well as full charging (to 100%, called “rollover”)

    What is the chemistry you’re talking about?

    Li-ION does not like either. One cycle below “empty” will destroy a Li-ION battery as will over charge.

    Most space-qualified batteries are NiH2 (Nickle-Hydrogen), where Ni is the Cathode & H2 is the Anode (source of electrons). NiH2 are capable of 15-20yr lifetimes* and are reconditioned periodically by fully discharging all cells. They are normally operated at a DOD up to 80%.

    You’re right (and I’m well aware) that Li-Ion chemistries require avoiding both extremes —full discharge and top-off or overcharge— to avoid damage. However, GM’s new 65% DOD regime still leaves lots of room (35%) before reaching either a full discharge OR an overcharge condition and is therefore considered quite conservative.

    /* The Hubble Space Telescope (HST) & the Int’l Space Station (ISS) both use NiH2 batteries. HST NiH2 batteries lasted 19 years in the harsh environment of low-earth-orbit space. They were replaced as a precaution last May, 2009 after 19yrs of use.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:24 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:26 am)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:37 am)

    EricLG: Why be skeptical if you can do a little math ? Start with 34.5 kwh/gallon, 200 – 250 wh/mile, and 50 mpg.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    From 37% ideal, steady-state to real world 30% under varying load and stop/start is not…umm…realistic unless one does 90% highway driving.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:38 am)

    Dave G: So if I end up buying the Volt, it looks like it would be better to wait until the 2013 model year.

    By that time maybe the Volt should have some competition from other plug-ins. Maybe things will look a little different by then.

    #14

    I agree. +1 I hope that gets you “back on the island”, if only temporarily, LOL.

    Best regards.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:41 am)

    Charlie H:
    Beg to differ… if the car can’t do 40 miles, AER, its reason for living is gone.AER of 20 miles is not much at all, certainly won’t satisfy those 40 miles commuteers and, presuming there’s any advances in battery tech in the next 8 to 10 years, will look absolutely pitiful next to the competition.The car will have a book value of close to zero.    

    Assuming 50% AER capacity here is a bit extreme but not as extreme as assuming “close to zero book value”! So, if I buy a conventional car today with no AER then I guess it will have negative book value in 10 years? What about a 2012 Plugin-in Prius which, under your projections, would have an AER of about 7 miles?

    I guess your saying we should all just stop buying cars for another 8 to 10 years until battery tech advances enough so our cars can have greater than zero resale value?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:44 am)

    I say GM should just say Fuk|t and open the batt pack to the full 80% DOD (12,800Wh) and get us 50-55AER.

    What say YOU!!!
    Let’s gitterdone boys!!!

    /back to my Kahlua & Coffee!!!!


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:44 am)

    I’m betting a large Dr. Pepper that EricLG puts up 60 or more irrelevant posts today all by himself. This dude just doesn’t get it and will not shut up. He’s worse that Mayor Villaraigosa, Jerry Brown and Meg Whitman all rolled up into one.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:48 am)

    Jim I: I thought the entire pack size of the Leaf was 24 kwh?

    That is what statik has listed on nissan-leaf.net

    Nissan quoted using 95% of that 24KWh pack. 22,800Wh


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:49 am)

    Noel Park,

    Hey Noel, haven’t seen you around these parts for a while.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:51 am)

    nasaman: /* The Hubble Space Telescope (HST) & the Int’l Space Station (ISS) both use NiH2 batteries.

    OT, but it was “Rumored” that the energy storage device was EEStor.

    /key word……”Rumored”


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:53 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Hey Noel, haven’t seen you around these parts for a while.

    yeah, where you been hiding?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:55 am)

    CaptJackSparrow: OT, but it was “Rumored” that the energy storage device was EEStor.

    Keep it down, man! EEstor has been in use since the Apollo Missions, but it’s TOP SECRET.
    Men in Black will blow you away if you don’t keep it hush hush!


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    Flaninacupboard

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:57 am)

    Loboc: This makes no sense. How can 200wh/mile be ‘never a realistic figure’ when you also claim in the same breath that a 10-year-old design gets 215wh/mile?When I went to 3rd grade, 10.4/50 = 208 which is pretty close to 200./how do you even measure wh/mile in a fully-parallel hybrid?  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Thr Volt is significantly heavier than the prius, has slightly poorer CD, and series operation (with multiple energy conversion stages) cannot be more efficicent than direct drive, so i would never expect it’s efficiency to be better.

    I’d also say it’s 10.4/40, which is 260wh/mi.

    I determine my wh/mi by looking at fuel burned (say 10 gallons), energy involved (~420kwh for imperial gallons), conversion factor of the ICE (should be 35% under most normal driving conditions) meaning 147kwh of power came out of the engine. that power transported me 650 miles, so ~220wh/mi.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:59 am)

    CorvetteGuy, I sent you an email this morning. Let me know what you think.
    Thanks, Michael


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:02 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Keep it down, man! EEstor has been in use since the Apollo Missions, but it’s TOP SECRET.
    Men in Black will blow you away if you don’t keep it hush hush!

    They won’t find me maaannn….
    I have my aluminum foil beanie hat on and it deflects and distorts visible photons….i’ll be alright. 😛


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:02 am)

    Aren’t those numbers reversed? What is it at 25%? The engine drives the wheels and starts from 0 rpm. Max efficiency under ideal conditions, steady state on the bench is 37%.,

    At 25% it 170wh/mi. at 37% it’s 251wh/mi. I am looking at power going into the driveshaft, and distance driven. so the 44kwh of power in an imperial gallon of petrol turns into 11kwh at 25% and 15.4kwh at 35%.

    And actually, the ICE doesn’t start at 0RPM. No fuel is injected until MG1 has spun it up to 1,000RPM.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:03 am)

    Flaninacupboard: I determine my wh/mi by looking at fuel burned (say 10 gallons), energy involved (~420kwh for imperial gallons), conversion factor of the ICE (should be 35% under most normal driving conditions) meaning 147kwh of power came out of the engine. that power transported me 650 miles, so ~220wh/mi.

    So you just ignore the 65% of the energy wasted by the ICE? This seems like some number fudging to me.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:15 am)

    James,

    Just some comments.

    I’m working on and have worked on some equip. for the Ford Focus EV. I think the late 2012/early 2013 date tossed around is probably correct(for when this would be available to buyers), unless Ford decides to change their gameplan.

    Ford is also creating a lot of jobs right now and investing 100’s of millions in Michigan.

    I don’t think they “borrowed Japanese tech”. From what I read, it was independently developed.

    I do think they took Gov. money, from the DOE. Ford is not as innocent as everyone makes them out to be. Free Gov. money is free gov. money.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:17 am)

    CaptJackSparrow: I say GM should just say Fuk|t and open the batt pack to the full 80% DOD (12,800Wh) and get us 50-55AER.

    Would you be OK w/that if your warranty was only 4 years?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:18 am)

    So a car that at best gets 50mpg(Prius) gets a better rating than a car for the vast majority of drivers will get at least 75mpg ? That makes about as much sense as me paying over $100 per replacement window for a lead test just because my house was built in 1968.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:21 am)

    Is it just me……….

    Today’s topic is interesting and all….. but I’m Jonesin’ for Lyle’s first personal drive experiences. I can’t have a Volt yet because I don’t want to risk having to service the car two states away and I want my state to pitch in like Cali… So for now Lyle – YOU’RE MY GUY – I look forward to hearing how Volt performs in daily life and can’t wait to hear all the nuances anxiety-free electric driving bring to the table!

    Hopefully other CABers will stop by and post their experiences living daily with their Volts. Chelsea will have to give us her impressions as a woman – that we can relay to our wives, as she’s the only female on the crew.

    Thanks Lyle for letting us live vicariously through you as you get plugged in!

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    kdawg

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:26 am)

    EricLG: Let’s see, I guess that the Volt will have half the longevity of a Prius, say 125k for the Volt and 250k miles for the Prius.

    LOL. Must be nice to just use whatever numbers you want. I can do that too! I guess the Prius’ brakes will last 5K miles, and will have to be replaced at a cost of, I guess, $5000. Assuming you don’t die in a crash, I guess the Prius will cost you 15,000miles/5000*$5000= $15,000/year in brake repairs after the warranty wears out. Assuming Toyota honors their warranty, but I’m guessing they wont.

    Guessing is fun!


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    kForceZero

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:29 am)

    EricLG:
    The same way you measure it in the equally “fully parallel” Volt. Or have you yet to grasp that the Volt is a Prius hybrid powertrain imitation ?
    And now, a 6th grade physics lesson: wh is a measure of ENERGY, not electricity per se.    

    The question is have you yet to grasp the concept that you’re an idiot? Nobody was trying to calculate the energy usage of a Volt in CS mode, this whole topic is about the battery after all! But apparently you have your head so far up your ass that you don’t even think it’s possible to calculate the AER usage in a Volt. You’ve been telling yourself so much that “the Volt is just like Prius” that now basic discussions abut AER like this don’t even make sense to you anymore.

    Who said WH is a “measure of electricity” anyway, that doesn’t even make sense. The question implied that it is difficult to measure WH in a hybrid, not that it’s impossible.

    Forget 6th grade, the real question is “Are you smarter than a 5th grader?”


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    kent beuchert

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:31 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:33 am)

    pjkPA: So a car that at best gets 50mpg(Prius) gets a better rating than a car….

    I must have missed something. What was the rating?


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    Charlie H

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:35 am)

    kdawg: I don’t think they “borrowed Japanese tech”. From what I read, it was independently developed.

    True. Ford did their own work. However, they discovered that Toyota had done extremely similar work and just a little bit quicker, so they had to arrange a licensing deal to avoid patent infringement. The licensing deal might have allowed them to take advantage of any


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:35 am)

    kdawg: Would you be OK w/that if your warranty was only 4 years?

    If the warranty reduction was proportionally dropped with price……..yes.

    /but I don’t think they’ll go below 5 years.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    I wanted to ask about the mid-range “dead spot” on braking I experienced while driving Volt in L, CS mode coming to a stop from about 38 mph. I alluded to it after my 4.5 mile test drive – and it was really the only thing I noticed that made Volt feel at all different from a really quiet, stealthy yet normal car. It may have just been the one I was driving. I had chances to brake the Volt hard in a near panic stop – I also braked it down to a stop from about 45-ish and it felt great. There was just one stop sign where I pressed the pedal in very lightly, as I do with my Prius to get the most out of regen – and it kind of went dead through the middle of the pedal travel and I had to apply more pressure as it kind of had a feel of an old conventional car with drum brakes that needed the lines bled and had too much travel until 3/4 to the floor. I mentioned it to the GM host along with us, and he had no answers. Anyone notice this or have the same experience?

    En total, Volt glided along. To the anti-Volt crowd I have to say the car will stand up on it’s own to all your whining. It’s literally a thrill to stand next to a fleet of Volts as I did during the Unplugged Tour visit and just watch them silently roll by, even in CS mode. I was there over three hours and at one point I just sucked in a big gulp of air as two Volts rolled off and away, noticing “hey, the air smells and tastes clean!” Now what is THAT worth?!!!

    This is not Dan Petit ( lol – nods to Dan ) but you kind of understand what the man means – because driving the Volt is nearly surreal at times due to it’s smooth power delivery. I’ll drive a LEAF in a few days and report my findings.

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    Hal: I have my test drive in DC on Saturday. Any questions ya’ll have for me to ask on your behalves?

    Assuming you have one, can you plug in your Ipod and let us know what the interface is like? Are your songs displayed on the Volt’s screen and are you given control of the Ipod w/the steering wheel controls?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:38 am)

    Jim I: If

    In your post there are at least five ‘ifs’ which indicates that it is way to early to tell what Volt’s resale/residual value will actually be. As summarized; it is an unknown.

    Traditionally, the 36/36000 or whatever original warranty has very little to do with the resale value of a 9-or-10-year-old car. Banking on some sort of warranty transfer (what, 1 year left?) has very little real (cash) value.

    I believe that used Volts will hold their value very well. It’s like a cult car. They will be snapped up regardless of value as transportation.

    Even the junk value will be high:
    A 53kwh stationary generator is worth at least $15k. Other components such as the inverter will command top dollar. Not to mention the ‘dead’ battery and charging circuitry.

    Like ya say; it’s an unknown at this point.


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:40 am)

    kent beuchert: Only in California, the land of Oz, do they claim a car powered by mostly burning coal is a “Zero emission vehicle.” And people wonder how they went so bankrupt so soon.

    lol….
    OT but I read someone slapped BMW with a law suit for their (BMW) claim of “Zero Emissions”. They said they can’t make that claim because the source of the energy they charged the batt pack with was fossil fuel based.

    Her’s a link…
    http://www.sustainablelifemedia.com/content/story/brands/bmw_banned_from_claiming_zero_emission_ev

    /tough crowd huh?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    nasaman: You’re right (and I’m well aware) that Li-Ion chemistries require avoiding both extremes —full discharge and top-off or overcharge— to avoid damage. However, GM’s new 65% DOD regime still leaves lots of room (35%) before reaching either a full discharge OR an overcharge condition and is therefore considered quite conservative.

    It actually is not that conservative to stop at 65%.

    What a difference chemistry makes. That was the part that really took me a long time to come to grips with when working with Li_Ion batteries. I’ve done quite a few charge algorithms for lead acid batteries. Lead acid batteries really like to be charged! They need to be regularly overcharged for long life, otherwise they develop sulfate crystals. No one voltage is good; it either under charges it or boils the battery dry so a cycling maintenance is required. It is almost like they have the reverse of the memory of early Ni-Cd batteries – don’t fully charge them and they will remember and hold less next time. Where lead acid batteries are sensitive in terms of cycles vs. life is at the bottom end. Anything under 50% curtails life.

    Li-Ion are the other way around. It is the top of the charge range that wears them out fast. The bottom end is a cliff. Fall below a certain voltage and they die fast. Stay above the cliff and running them down close to the edge has little impact on life. Where Li-Ion batteries wear out fast is on the top end. Anything above 65% greatly reduces the life of the battery because of undesired side reactions. So for the maximum life you keep a Li-Ion in the lower range, opposite a lead acid battery.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    Flaninacupboard: Thr Volt is significantly heavier than the prius, has slightly poorer CD, and series operation (with multiple energy conversion stages) cannot be more efficicent than direct drive, so i would never expect it’s efficiency to be better.

    I’d also say it’s 10.4/40, which is 260wh/mi.

    I can pick whatever numbers I want as well. I choose 50 AER. So there!


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    Does the Volt have the internet?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:54 am)

    Flaninacupboard: Thr (sic) Volt… and series operation (with multiple energy conversion stages) cannot be more efficicent (sic) than direct drive, so i would never expect it’s efficiency to be better.

    Don’t you hate it when some of the trolls stay under the bridge too long?

    Did you miss the huge “scandal?” The Volt is not a series hybrid in charge sustaining mode. The engine directly drives the wheels above 35 MPH in charge sustaining mode.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:56 am)

    GM did the right thing with the Volt battery. They designed in enough margin that they could achieve the 40 mile range and still have a battery that they felt comfortable would last 8 years.

    I have been involved on enough battery projects to know that predicting life on a battery is a little black magic. Until you have actually aged one on the calendar you don’t really know. Accelerated life testing only gets you so far.

    So digging deeper into the battery to get the range numbers was the right answer. To fail to deliver on the 40 mile range would have been catastrophic.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    nasaman: WHAT IS THIS, “TROLL-A-THON TUESDAY”?!?!

    ROTFL. I had exactly the same thought.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:05 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: I’m betting a large Dr. Pepper that EricLG puts up 60 or more irrelevant posts today all by himself. This dude just doesn’t get it and will not shut up. He’s worse that Mayor Villaraigosa, Jerry Brown and Meg Whitman all rolled up into one.    

    Well, it’s early yet, but, he posted 7 and got -107 votes for the effort so far. I only counted the one screen name though.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:09 pm)

    Matthew_B: The Volt is not a series hybrid in charge sustaining mode. The engine directly drives the wheels above 35 MPH in charge sustaining mode.

    I think it went more along the lines of….. it has a window from 35mph – 70mph and the computer decides when to engage direct drive for “best efficiency”.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:10 pm)

    EricLG:
    Shall I list other GM “targets” relating to the Volt, and how those played out ?    

    They said 40 miles AER and they are on target.

    They said 3 years development, Volt to be available on November 2010. Toyota said it couldn’t be done. They are on target, despite the Chapter whatever thing.

    These were the 2 impossible targets they aimed for and they made it.

    Other targets (better price, better CS mode) will be met with a little more time.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:16 pm)

    Matthew_B: It actually is not that conservative to stop at 65%…..

    I respect your obviously detailed knowledge of lead-acid batteries. My limited knowledge of Li-Ion batteries has convinced me (so far) that there are many different variations of Li-Ion chemistries —enough that I’d need to make a career out of Li-Ion technology before really understanding the limitations of the many chemistry variations. But let me ask this…. although Nissan hasn’t yet specifically stated what their battery % utilization actually is yet, I’ve read estimates ranging as high as 95% by those who claim to have gained *some* knowledge of the Leaf battery design ….so if 65% is “marginal” (or rather, “not that conservative”) as you suggest is the case for the Volt battery, why isn’t Leaf’s utilization level of >65% simply reckless & irresponsible?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    I think it went more along the lines of….. it has a window from 35mph – 70mph and the computer decides when to engage direct drive for “best efficiency”.    

    Yep… +1


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:19 pm)

    kent beuchert:

    Only in California, the land of Oz, do they claim a car powered by mostly burning coal is a “Zero emission vehicle.”

    Lol. How much coal is burned in California to produce electricity again?


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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:29 pm)

    Loboc:
    Well, it’s early yet, but, he posted 7 and got -107 votes for the effort so far. I only counted the one screen name though.    

    It’d be worse than that if my theory is correct:

    Theory: Once a post gets down to -12 or 13, most people don’t bother -1’ing it any more, as it is already “safely trounced.”

    >> only counted one screen name though
    Here’s a suggestion for Lyle’s programmer. If an IP address has been the source of a post in the last hour (or two, three, five, whatever), don’t permit any other names to post from that IP until the period expires.


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    Flaninacupboard

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    kdawg: Flan

    Not at all, i’m just looking at the actual efficiency of the transmission/aero etc, ignoring the power source. we will all be doing this once we’re primarily on EV’s, after all if the Leaf used 200wh/mile and tesla model S used 400wh/mile, which would you say is more efficient?

    ~40 MPG in CS makes perfect sense looking at it like this, for every mile, regardless of whether your fuel source is petrol or electricity, the prius needs 215wh, the volt needs 260wh. factor in a 25-30% efficienct ICE in the volt and you have ~40mpg. This is what they were talking about when they were trying to find extra efficiency in CD mode, knowing it would roll into CS mode as well….


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:34 pm)

    Loboc: Flan

    That’s fine, and i can pick 72mpg and therefore ~180wh/mi, which is a tank i got a couple of months ago, but it’s not typical. typical is 65mpg, and i think typical range will be 40 (when you consider year round usage)


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:35 pm)

    James:I’m Jonesin’ for Lyle’s first personal drive experiences.

    We were supposed to have the cars delivered on 10/24 but it’s pushed back to 10/29 at the earliest, maybe longer wait.


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    Dave K.

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    screenshot_01.png

    vampares: Does the Volt have the internet?

    You trying to WiFi tether off my car? Get your own Volt.

    NPNS


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:42 pm)

    Dave K.: You trying to WiFi tether off my car? Get your own Volt.

    NPNS

    That’s if you’ve violated the warranty of your phone. No more support.
    A “rooted” phone is an non warranted phone. :o)

    /not that I care, you can call me “Roto rooter”.
    //remember that jingle? Call roto rooter, that’s the name and away goes trouble down the drain……….AHAHAHAHAHAH


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    unni

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:43 pm)

    Just saw in twitter :

    2011 Chevy Volt Classified As ULEV by CARB, Emits More CO2 Than Prius, Ineligible For Carpool Stickers

    Seems the the wording : We make great products but competition makes, standards demands and customer needs greatest products ( 2 degree higher than what we make ).


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:44 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:44 pm)

    unni: Just saw in twitter :2011 Chevy Volt Classified As ULEV by CARB, Emits More CO2 Than Prius, Ineligible For Carpool Stickers    

    I recall CA said they will accept the Volt in carpool despite CARB. Don’t have the link but you can search it.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:47 pm)

    Mike-o-Matic,
    Hey, Mike. Did you get your forum registration/user name all figured out?
    Cheers, Michael


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    JeremyK

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:48 pm)

    nasaman:
    ….so if 65% is “marginal” (or rather, “not that conservative”) as you suggest is the case for the Volt battery, why isn’t Leaf’s utilization level of >65% simply reckless & irresponsible?    

    If they are using 95% or even over 80% SOC, it DOES seem reckless…but, just like GM, we have to assume that Nissan has done the necessary testing to validate the choice to use such a wide discharge range.

    If they pull it off, good for them but I have a feeling that Nissan has made some assumptions about the daily depth of discharge (i.e. most consumers won’t fully discharge the battery before plugging in for a full recharge).

    However, there will be a certain percentage of owners who only charge once the battery is nearly dead, and tons of soccer moms who will limp that sucker home and plug it in at 5% SOC. It will be very interesting to see how the battery life is affected by that type of use.

    My guess is that to keep the cost down they maximized the allowable depth of discharge, BUT are hoping for light use (daily cycling between 30% SOC and 90 % SOC). Maybe they saved enough money that they can afford to replace packs for those poor people on the tail end of the bell curve (that perform daily full discharge). I think Nissan’s warranty is set at 8 years to compete with GM…but if it wasn’t for competition of the Volt, their warranty would be closer to 5 years.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    Loboc:
    Lol. How much coal is burned in California to produce electricity again?    

    Just Navajo Generating station – not burned in California, but burned FOR California – does that count?

    Mojave closed 4 years ago.

    The cool part about Navajo Generation station is that the coal is hauled from the mine by electric railroad so it is 100% domestic energy.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    JeremyK: nasaman:
    ….so if 65% is “marginal” (or rather, “not that conservative”) as you suggest is the case for the Volt battery, why isn’t Leaf’s utilization level of >65% simply reckless & irresponsible?
    ============================================
    If they are using 95% or, even over 80% SOC, it DOES seem reckless…but, just like GM, we have to assume that Nissan has done the necessary testing to validate the choice to use such a wide discharge range.

    If they pull it off, good for them but I have a feeling that Nissan has made some assumptions about the daily depth of discharge (i.e. most consumers won’t fully discharge the battery before plugging in for a full recharge).

    However, there will be a certain percentage of owners who only charge once the battery is nearly dead, and tons of soccer moms who will limp that sucker home and plug it in at 5% SOC. It will be very interesting to see how the battery life is affected by that type of use.

    My guess is that to keep the cost down they maximized the allowable depth of discharge, BUT are hoping for light use (daily cycling between 30% SOC and 90 % SOC). Maybe they saved enough money that they can afford to replace packs for those poor people on the tail end of the bell curve (that perform daily full discharge). I think Nissans’s warranty is set at 8 years to compete with GM…but if it wasn’t for competition of the Volt, their warranty would be closer to 5 years.

    I agree fully, Jeremy!


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    Jim I

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:58 pm)

    Lyle:
    We were supposed to have the cars delivered on 10/24 but it’s pushed back to 10/29 at the earliest, maybe longer wait.    

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It was like the 800 lb gorilla in the room. We were trying to be cool and not mention it, but now we have to go for another week???

    You are killing us, GM!!!!!!!

    Get Lyle his Volt……………..

    You know it is bad when I start talking about the Prius and specs on the Leaf!!!!!! I hate those cars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    😉


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    MTN Ranger

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (12:58 pm)

    kent beuchert,
    “Only in California, the land of Oz, do they claim a car powered by mostly burning coal is a “Zero emission vehicle.” And people wonder how they went so bankrupt so soon. ”

    Wrong according to the DOE. Coal is only 1.3%.

    California Energy Output by Source (Electrical Utilities plus
    Independent Power Producers) 2002 [1]

    Source Megawatts % of Total
    —————————————————-

    Coal ………….. 2,327,809 1.3
    Petroleum ……… 1,961,066 1.1
    Natural Gas ……. 89,624,044 48.7
    Other Gasses …… 1,240,053 0.7
    Nuclear ……….. 34,352,340 18.6
    Hydroelectric ….. 30,899,631 16.8
    Other Renewables .. 23,680,568 12.9
    Other………….. 124,520 0.1


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:07 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    john1701a

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:08 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Loboc

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:12 pm)

    Charlie H: This leads me to suspect that a guess of a $5K brake repair every 5K miles isn’t one of the smart guess.

    Sarcasm is a bitch ain’t it.


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    EricLG

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:14 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Jackson

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:17 pm)

    The following excerpt, from “Harrier” (in his comment below the Times article) is worth repeating. Prior to this, most comments followed that weary old argument: “So what, electricity generation makes pollution too.”

    This is called “The Long Tailpipe Theory” and it has been disproven many times over. Electricity is going to come from somewhere and here in the United States, we use a lot of coal. Despite coal based energy producers claims that they can make “clean” coal, it is an exceptionally dirty way to generate electricity.

    The grid in the United States passes energy from a multitude of sources, including coal, hydro, wind, solar, natural and bio-gas. Depending on where you are in the US depends on what kind of mix you are getting at your home or office. If you have your own solar panels and/or wind turbine (a growing trend) you would be emitting no CO2 for those electric miles you drive.

    Nobody in the United States uses only coal to provide their electrical needs. However, even if you only powered the Volt from old coal fired plants, you would STILL produce less than a gasoline powered vehicle. Here are the reasons why:

    1) According to the World Resources Institute, EVs recharging from coal-fired plants will reduce CO2 emissions by at least 17 to 22 percent.

    Furthermore, in a study conducted by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, EVs were significantly cleaner over the course of 100,000 miles than ICE cars. The electricity generation process produces less than 100 pounds of pollutants for EVs compared to 3000 pounds for Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles.

    The bottom line is that EV’s are significantly more efficient at converting energy into mechanical power.

    2) Fewer sources to regulate and control emissions from. Instead of hundreds of thousands of vehicles at various ages and states of repair, you now have a much more static, and policeable system. If coal fired plant x does not want to meet clean air regulations – they get shut down.

    3) Regenerative Braking. When you burn gas and move forward, you have to stop and the energy you used to move is now wasted as heat in your brake pads.

    In an electric car that momentum can be recaptured, put into the battery and used again.


  145. 145
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:18 pm)

    13 postings for EricLG so far. Atta’boy! I may win today’s pool yet.


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    ClarksonCote

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:24 pm)

    EricLG: $3 for each gallon “saved?” Is that all? lolLet’s see, I guess that the Volt will have half the longevity of a Prius, say 125k for the Volt and 250k miles for the Prius. That means $15,000 tax subsidy over 250k blended miles. The Prius will consume 250k/50mpg or 5000 gallons of petrol. If the Volt spends 20% of its miles on petrol at 35 mpg, it consumes 250*.2/35mpg or 1428 gallon of petrol consumed.So, the “savings” cost 15000/(5000-1428) is $4.2/gallon. This is a curious number, since it approximates the tax Europeans pay on their petrol. Coincidence I presume.    

    Your comparisons are always so amusingly biased. If there were pots of gold at the end of the rainbow, leprechauns could fund our country’s addiction to oil.

    I’m glad you think a Prius will drive twice as long as a Volt. I know many people who have over 200k on their Chevy’s though. You might want to re-evaluate your biased analysis.

    join thE REVolution


  147. 147
    Mark Z

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:26 pm)

    Buying a Segway PT back in 2003 and riding it daily provided a critical insight in making the battery last. Getting 600 full charge and discharge cycles on the original Nimh battery packs was considered excellent. Extreme cold ruined range so a warm pack would get us to the destination, but if sitting outside below 40 degrees before the return trip, a bit of walking would result. Lithium ion packs solved the cold problems and the range was doubled in a similar sized battery.

    How things have changed with E-REV. Batteries can now be heated before use if a plug is not available. GM recommends in the owners manual to always plug in when possible, as heating and cooling of the batteries occurs while the car is parked and optimizes the range and battery health (my words.) Eliminating over charging and under charging to keep the batteries useful for almost a decade is a huge improvement. Having the engine along for the ride is not only range extending, but battery saving as well.

    Segway doubled range with a more advanced battery technology. Better batteries will extend the VOLT range too, but the option of additional batteries in the hatch area could give added EV range sooner. What ever the engineers are working on, we can be sure of improvements that will give added driving enjoyment in the years ahead.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:30 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: 13 postings for EricLG so far. Atta’boy! I may win today’s pool yet.

    I say we only count ELG comments that get voted down (you’re still in contention, Corvette Guy)!


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    kdawg

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:39 pm)

    Charlie H: Guessing can be fun and smart or informed guesses are worthwhile but stupid guesses are just stupid guesses. Owners of Priuses report very long brake life. Many of the taxis in downtown Boston and around the airport are Toyota hybrids. I can’t see cab companies putting up with $5K brake repairs every 5K miles.
    This leads me to suspect that a guess of a $5K brake repair every 5K miles isn’t one of the smart guess. It’s probably the other kind of guess.

    And guessing 1 car will have 1/2 the life of another car is also a “stupid guess”. And then to use those #’s to try and make some calculated conclusion, just means your conclusion is also “stupid”.

    However its a great tactic to spread some FUD.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:39 pm)

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    kdawg

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:42 pm)

    Jim I: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    It was like the 800 lb gorilla in the room. We were trying to be cool and not mention it, but now we have to go for another week???
    You are killing us, GM!!!!!!!
    Get Lyle his Volt……………..
    You know it is bad when I start talking about the Prius and specs on the Leaf!!!!!! I hate those cars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Lyle,

    On Sunday night, dress up in your scariest costume, knock on the door at DHAM and say “TRICK OR TREAT!”


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:43 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:43 pm)

    Volt: 161.55 Watt-hr/km = 0.766 km/MJ well-to-wheel efficiency.
    Prius at 51mpg = 0.478 km/MJ well-to-wheel efficiency.

    Derived from http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/efficiency

    So that’s 60% more efficient on the Volt than the Prius, well-to-wheel efficiency.

    ’nuff said.

    EfficiencyComparison_0.png

    join thE REVolution


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:45 pm)

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    Loboc

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:48 pm)

    EricLG: I know you are hard of hearing

    Unless there is text-to-speech involved, only people on LSD ‘hear’ the written word.


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    ClarksonCote

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:50 pm)

    EricLG:
    How many people do you know with 200k miles on their Chevy traction batteries, that GM refuses to warrant even out to 150k miles ?    

    http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Toyota-Prius-Battery-Warranty—Options-When-You-Are-Out-of-Warranty&id=4043404

    Oh, I didn’t realize that Toyota warranties their batteries to 150k.. oh wait, they don’t.

    join thE REVolution


  157. 157
    usbseawolf2000

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:50 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:54 pm)

    ClarksonCote: Volt: 161.55 Watt-hr/km = 0.766 km/MJ well-to-wheel efficiency.
    Prius at 51mpg = 0.478 km/MJ well-to-wheel efficiency.

    These are TANK-to-wheel, not well-to-wheel numbers for the Volt. I am not sure what you have posted for the Prius.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (1:55 pm)

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    kdawg

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:01 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: Just a friendly reminder

    LOL.. Troll Fail


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    Matthew_B

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:05 pm)

    EricLG:
    PART of the power flow, I think. The remainder goes ICE -> G ->Inverter->battery->inverter->Motor->wheels.    

    Take out the battery in that sequence. Going down the freeway at constant speed the battery will sit at one charge level.

    Then you have to power flow matching what the Prius currently does.


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    Matthew_B

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:07 pm)

    Loboc:
    Sarcasm is a bitch ain’t it.    

    No, just over their head.
    I’ve figured out that my kids start getting sarcasm at about 11 years old. Maybe our troll hasn’t reached that maturity yet.


  163. 163
    kdawg

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:07 pm)

    Prius Concept
    Toyota_Prius_concept2.jpg
    Toyota_Prius_concept1.jpg

    Reality
    http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:9WL-sdPTzdQU1M:http://www.nextautos.com/files/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2007-prius-building.jpg&t=1/img


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:16 pm)

    MTN Ranger: Source Megawatts % of Total
    —————————————————-

    Coal ………….. 2,327,809 1.3
    Petroleum ……… 1,961,066 1.1
    Natural Gas ……. 89,624,044 48.7
    Other Gasses …… 1,240,053 0.7
    Nuclear ……….. 34,352,340 18.6
    Hydroelectric ….. 30,899,631 16.8
    Other Renewables .. 23,680,568 12.9
    Other………….. 124,520 0.1

    If an EV is charged at night, then the generation mix will tilt heavily towards the base load plants.

    You can figure the hydro number is highly negative at night. The California Water Resource Board has an incredible ability to shift around their generation and pump usage. It is not per se pumped storage but it is effectively the same. They run their pumps at night and generators during the day.

    The natural gas number is probably cut in 1/2.

    I wonder what the solar / biomass / wind split is? That would affect how much of the renewable is at night.

    So figure 3% coal, 30% nuclear, 30% natural gas and the balance renewable as a SWAG.

    PS: The 1.1% petrol is a side effect of relying on natural gas. When it gets really cold, there isn’t enough natural gas to go around so they burn diesel instead. Build some nukes for darn sakes!


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    john1701a

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:16 pm)

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    usbseawolf2000

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:18 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:20 pm)

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    Loboc

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:24 pm)

    Mike-o-Matic: Theory: Once a post gets down to -12 or 13, most people don’t bother -1′ing it any more, as it is already “safely trounced.”

    Well I recounted the first 7 and he is up to (er.. down to) 159 negs from 107 earlier.

    My theory is that as people come on, they go down through and read the posts voting as they go. If it’s already off the island, they just neg it again to keep it that way.

    However, observing behavior can change the behavior observed. Your theory may hold as well under more normal circumstances.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:25 pm)

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    usbseawolf2000

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:31 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:33 pm)

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    DonC

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:35 pm)

    kdawg: I don’t think they “borrowed Japanese tech”. From what I read, it was independently developed.

    The system used in the Toyota and Fusion hybrids was developed by a group of engineers at TRW in the 60s. It’s described by the so-called Berman/TRW patent. The improvement added by Toyota and Ford was to use a microprocessor which automatically selects the appropriate mode — the TRW system required the operator to do this. A few years ago Toyota sued Ford but they dropped the case in short order, waved the white flag, and agreed to cross-licensing. My guess is that both parties feared having all their patents thrown out as “obvious”. But that’s a guess on my part.

    GM uses what’s called the Allison-GM two mode hybrid system. This system was originally developed by the truck company Allison — I think in the late 40s. Interestingly enough Nissan uses this system as well.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:46 pm)

    NEWS FLASH (OT): Carlos Ghosn thinks Nissan must sell 1 million Leafs a year to make the electric car affordable without government help. One catch: production capacity will be only 200,000 by 2012.*

    /* Ref: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20020600-48.html


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:47 pm)

    evnow: Here is my comparison. If you use Lease rates, Volt will do better.

    Nice chart. I’d do two things: (1) Have a second chart which showed two chargers per day for up to 40 miles (for the Leaf as well, the 40 miles has more to do with 120V charging than anything else); and (2) add in some extra $$$ for rentals on those days you’d be using a car in place of the B.

    evnow: Chelsea thinks Volt is more fun to drive. I guess we will start getting more comparison reports … 

    I’d agree with Chelsea but the numbers might prove me wrong.

    The drives are distinctively different. You sit higher in the Leaf and the steering is very light so it feels like you’re aiming the car. In the Volt you sit lower so it feels like you’re driving it. The Leaf is smoother off the line. The Volt sort of hesitates and then has a perceptible kick.

    As to which one is more fun to drive, what’s funny is that if I had to guess I would have said the Leaf was slower to 60 MPH but it turns out it’s faster. So there is perception and reality.


  175. 175
    GM Volt Fan

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:51 pm)

    Check out this article about how the electronics of the Volt work with the powertrain. It gives you a good idea of just HOW sophisticated and high tech the Volt really is. The engineers and software people at GM really worked hard on getting the Volt to operate in the most optimal way possible. I’m sure that the Volt development team has impressed a LOT of automotive engineers all over the world. :)

    http://www.designnews.com/article/511165-Electronics_Boost_Chevy_Volt_s_Efficiency.php

    “The resulting Volt, however, could surprise the general public. “This car feels BETTER than a conventional vehicle,” Fletcher says. “It has a big traction motor that provides instantaneous torque. So when you step on the accelerator, you’re moving. There’s no lag, no lash to take up. It’s smooth and fast; you can drive 100 mph off the traction motor.”

    GM stresses that all of that engineering was done in-house, by a hardware and software staff as massive as any that the automotive giant has ever assembled. GM engineers say that effort may ultimately be the key to the Volt’s success.

    “The controls and integration are the part that most people are missing,” Fletcher says. “Competitors can buy the motors and the planetary gear set, but they can’t hook them up and control them the way we’ve done here.”


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    DonC

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    nasaman: Carlos Ghosn thinks Nissan must sell 1 million Leafs a year to make the electric car affordable without government help. One catch: production capacity will be only 200,000 by 2012.*

    This is an apples and oranges comparison. A million is a big number — no doubt about it — but that’s the number of worldwide sales (EU, Japan, China, NA, etc.) from both Nissan and Renault plus whatever other partners (Mercedes?) Carlos can rope in. The 200,000 production capacity number is for NA only.

    Perhaps more interestingly he used to say 500,000 was the magic number. I’m thinking someone is lobbying for more subsidies.

    In any event either number is much larger than 65,000. Without more volume the Volt price will remain high.


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    Nelson

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (2:57 pm)

    JeremyK,

    What we don’t know is that Nissan has implemented a dual battery configuration. You start the day with two charged batteries, but only use one to move the car. When the first battery reaches 50% depletion, the second takes over while the first begins to recharge while breaking. When the second battery reaches 55% depletion, the first battery takes over again and the second goes in break regen mode. This swapping continues while depletion % increases 5% during every swap. At the end of the day, you charge both batteries which will not likely be 100% depleted. Of course this is all done electronically behind the scene; drivers think they’re only depleting one battery pool.
    :)

    NPNS!


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    Tagamet

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:02 pm)

    Loboc: …Even the junk value will be high:
    A 53kwh stationary generator is worth at least $15k. Other components such as the inverter will command top dollar. Not to mention the ‘dead’ battery and charging circuitry….

    My God MAN! You’re talking like a cannibal!!! I thought that I’d seen it all, here at gm-volt.com. SACRILEGE! (lol).

    I’ve gotten as far as your comment reading each one, but I think I’m about filled to the gills with the troll effluence.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  179. 179
    JCook

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:16 pm)

    This is very disappointing from a PR perspective. Yes the Volt still accomplishes 40 AER but GM already lost credibility with a great deal of consumers and all these revelations are not helping their case. I can almost hear a sucking sound from the people that will run from GM because of a lack of faith. The only thing transparent about the Volt through this process has been the 40 miles AER. With this number and the losses in charging it puts the cost efficiency at ~2.5 times that of fuel. This is not that great! So that is a MPGe of somewhere between ~90MPGe to 38MPGe. For the 41K price some things need to be improved. I am pulling for GM but with there current bait and switch tactics the majority of the public will not support them. I guess the execs at GM were never told the boy who cried wolf story.

    The EPA labels from a previous post said they weren’t numbers from the Volt but as more is learned they actually look pretty darn close. I think they were trying to tell us something.


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    kdawg

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:21 pm)

    usbseawolf2000,

    And here’s another Prius Concept. Hmm I don’t see those driving around either.
    Gee what’s up w/all these car companies not building the “concept” vehicles?

    Toyota%201X_Prius.jpg


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    Tagamet

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:21 pm)

    Loboc: Mike-o-Matic: Theory: Once a post gets down to -12 or 13, most people don’t bother -1′ing it any more, as it is already “safely trounced.”

    Well I recounted the first 7 and he is up to (er.. down to) 159 negs from 107 earlier.

    My theory is that as people come on, they go down through and read the posts voting as they go. If it’s already off the island, they just neg it again to keep it that way.

    However, observing behavior can change the behavior observed. Your theory may hold as well under more normal circumstances.

    Somebody could write their PhD paper on these theories. Maybe Lyle would do a poll (lol). Personally, if the “score” is close to the 10 mark, I’m more likely to vote, but I also vote on low neg comments if I don’t think that it’s actually a neg comment. Every now and again *all* the regulars get a -1 by the trolls. Thanks goodness that there is so many more of quality here, vs trolls.

    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /my computer is dying, and I think that I smell burning flesh, so I may be gone for a bit (g)


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    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:24 pm)

    MichaelH: Mike-o-Matic,
    Hey, Mike.Did you get your forum registration/user name all figured out?
    Cheers, Michael    

    Sure did… thanks for asking!


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    Loboc

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:25 pm)

    Tagamet: My God MAN! You’re talking like a cannibal!!! I thought that I’d seen it all, here at gm-volt.com. SACRILEGE! (lol).

    Lol. Didn’t mean to upset ya, but, salvaging (and recycling) is part of the life cycle.

    Just trying to show that even a dead Volt is worth more than what people are figuring for a 10-year-old live one.


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    Charlie H

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:29 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    lousloot

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:29 pm)

    Just 2 little things:

    I don’t think Ford is too late to the EV party. The Transit Connect will sell well, and GM is only planning to make 70,000 Volts in the next 2 years.

    I wonder how the Volt is protecting the top end, charging only to 90%. Does Regen breaking get disabled? Hate to have a long downhill driveway…

    Looks like the configuration of the Volt’s charge/discharge settings are ADJUSTABLE!! Yea!
    I would hate for the generator to come on 20 feet from the driveway…


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    JCook

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:30 pm)

    Did I get the neg vote because I said I’m pulling for GM. There was nothing untrue or bad about what I said.


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    DonC

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:32 pm)

    JCook: With this number and the losses in charging it puts the cost efficiency at ~2.5 times that of fuel. This is not that great! So that is a MPGe of somewhere between ~90MPGe to 38MPGe. F

    Put the crack pipe down. For starters, MPGe is used for CAFE. It comes with a host of calculations, including a big bonus for not using gasoline. I don’t know 1/10th of them but I do know that for an EV you consider that a gallon of gas contains 82 kWh/gallon. Not remotely accurate but that’s the number. This means your MPGe numbers aren’t close to even being in the ballpark. In fact, since using 33 kWh results in an MPGe of over 100, and the Volt uses 25 kWh to go 100 miles, you’d have to expect the Volt to end up with an MPGe number of around 132.

    Secondly consumers aren’t going to care what their MPGe is. For them it’s meaningless. What they’re going to care about is how much gas they use. My guess here is that a lot of people will get in excess of 250 MPG.


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    joe

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:33 pm)

    Today must be troll day. Hey trolls, look at what Wards Auto has to say about the Leaf. Like I’ve said many times before, the Leaf will start out as a fad and will fade away like a fad.

    http://wardsauto.com/ar/volt_smart_compromise_101026/


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    Charlie H

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:35 pm)

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  190. 190
    Prius Recalls

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:37 pm)

    Time to go to the P-us site and unload.


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    joe

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:42 pm)

    kdawg,

    Wait a minute, you can only criticizes GM that way, who gave you the right to criticizes the almighty Prius?


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    JCook

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:43 pm)

    DonC: Put the crack pipe down. For starters, MPGe is used for CAFE. It comes with a host of calculations, including a big bonus for not using gasoline. I don’t know 1/10th of them but I do know that for an EV you consider that a gallon of gas contains 82 kWh/gallon. Not remotely accurate but that’s the number. This means your MPGe numbers aren’t close to even being in the ballpark. In fact, since using 33 kWh results in an MPGe of over 100, and the Volt uses 25 kWh to go 100 miles, you’d have to expect the Volt to end up with an MPGe number of around 132. Secondly consumers aren’t going to care what their MPGe is. For them it’s meaningless. What they’re going to care about is how much gas they use. My guess here is that a lot of people will get in excess of 250 MPG.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    The Volt uses more than 25 kWh to go 100 miles, it’s 26 kWH without the ~25% losses in charging ~35 kwh. Also the MPGe calculations are straight forward look at the new EPA labels(small print at the bottom). So you are the one sipping Koolaid.

    Second it is never 230mpg it is ~90MPGe based on cost, this is a real thing. Electricity is not free.

    On a side note everyone who has argued with me on the engineering and the numbers on these things has been wrong in the end so enjoy your koolaid!!


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    Jeff N

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:46 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    More electric miles mean more compromises on everything else. More emission. More gas consumption in CS mode. Costs more. Weights more. Uses more electricity. Requires more Octane, More complications. More clutches. More maintenance.    

    It all depends on your driving patterns and local electric grid or home solar panels as to whether emissions will be better or worse in a Volt, Prius or conventional car.

    Driving in Northern California, my emissions will likely go down when I switch from my gen 2 Prius to my new Volt because I will be doing a lot fewer cold starts of the engine and my electric grid fuel mix is low carbon and low pollution. I’ll be consuming a lot less gasoline overall.

    “Costs more”? I figure I’ll break even over 10 years while gaining lots of other advantages assuming gasoline averages to $4 a gallon along with cheap overnight grid power from PG&E.

    “More clutches”? Yes, more than a Prius but fewer than a conventional automatic.

    “Weighs more”? Useful if I get into an accident with a Prius. :-) :-)

    “Uses more electricity”? In what sense? Because I’m driving electric rather than on gas? That’s good. If you mean the Volt uses more kWhs per mile than other plugin cars that is an issue that has not been well established.

    “More complications” compared to what? “More maintenance” — again, compared to what?

    The Volt requires less maintenance than my Prius.

    Volt Prius

    7.5K vs. 5K Rotate Tires

    2 yrs. vs. 6 mo. or 5K Replace Oil

    50K vs. 30K Replace Air Filter

    5 yrs or 150K vs. 100K Replace Coolant

    100K vs. 120K Replace Spark Plugs


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:49 pm)

    joe: Today must be troll day. Hey trolls, look at what Wards Auto has to say about the Leaf. Like I’ve said many times before, the Leaf will start out as a fad and will fade away like a fad.http://wardsauto.com/ar/volt_smart_compromise_101026/  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Thanks, Joe. Many of the trolls are P-us fantasizers/american-haters.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:51 pm)

    nasaman: NEWS FLASH (OT): Carlos Ghosn thinks Nissan must sell 1 million Leafs a year to make the electric car affordable without government help. One catch: production capacity will be only 200,000 by 2012.*/* Ref: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20020600-48.html    

    Nasaman, here’s an interesting article written by Wards Auto, comparing the Volt and Leaf. If their prediction is accurate, Nissan will never make it big with the Leaf.

    http://wardsauto.com/ar/volt_smart_compromise_101026/


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (3:54 pm)

    joe: Like I’ve said many times before, the Leaf will start out as a fad and will fade away like a fad.

    What happens if Nissan offer a generator trailer for $1k?

    rav_longranger01.jpg
    long_ranger_tom01.jpg


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    Charlie H

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:02 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    John

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:04 pm)

    Such a variety of power costs around. In my area, summer will be appx. 18 cents/kWh in summer next year after PECO raises rates. So, 10.4*.18 = $1.872 for 40-45mi. I’m sure it’s closer to 1.90-2.00 since you would also have trickle charge once the full charge is done. Over 1/2 the price of a Cruze mileage so out of pocket per mile is still better than gas (except for car price).

    I’d like to see the volt sell best where kWh prices are lowest – biggest impact to the consumer.

    In terms of investment, my initial electric investment is in a solar 6.5kW PV array with about a 5 year payback (install cost of $5.50/W – on the lower end of the typical scale). If I get a Volt or similar it will be probably 3 years from now and can benefit somewhat from the Solar power.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:12 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:16 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:18 pm)

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    Jim I

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:19 pm)

    Lets try this again:

    Concept From 1995:

    18457d1252612077-1995-prius-concept-pics-prius-1-concept-car-tokyo-motor-show95_1040_2krg_zoom.jpg

    Reality From 2000:

    2000_toyota_prius_100001083_m.jpg

    Reality From 2010:

    ext_image11.jpg

    How Dare They Change From The Original Concept!!!!

    I wonder what the Volt will be in 10 years or so…..


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:21 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:24 pm)

    Jim I: How Dare They Change From The Original Concept!!!!

    13 years and 2,000,000 sales.

    Looks like it has been taken from concept to mainstream.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:26 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:28 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:30 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:30 pm)

    JCook: Volt still accomplishes 40 AER

    Haven’t ya heard? It’s 50 now.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:31 pm)

    …One more time —-

    photo.php?fbid=461149681008&set=a.454510181008.231971.106095626008&l=95a889913e&ref=fbx_album


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:34 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    Loboc:
    Haven’t ya heard? It’s 50 now.    

    25 to 50 miles to be accurate.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    Just checked in here (on the front page article comments) for the first time in a week or two. Nice to see nothing’s changed :)

    Just wait until the TV ads start airing tomorrow night, then the partisans will REALLY come out of the woodwork.

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:37 pm)

    Well…THE NEW VOLT PICS ARE HERE —- THE NEW VOLT PICS ARE HERE —–!!!!!

    ( and yes, they are spectacular! )

    http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=231971&id=106095626008&l=95a889913e

    Couldn’t post ’em, but they’re there in all their glory – beautiful shots, I know many will end up here on the site soon. The tunnel “WOOOSH” shot is my new desktop! :)

    PUMP OUT THE VOLTS! ( in all 50 states ),

    James


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:46 pm)

    DonC: Put the crack pipe down. For starters, MPGe is used for CAFE. It comes with a host of calculations, including a big bonus for not using gasoline. I don’t know 1/10th of them but I do know that for an EV you consider that a gallon of gas contains 82 kWh/gallon. Not remotely accurate but that’s the number. This means your MPGe numbers aren’t close to even being in the ballpark. In fact, since using 33 kWh results in an MPGe of over 100, and the Volt uses 25 kWh to go 100 miles, you’d have to expect the Volt to end up with an MPGe number of around 132. Secondly consumers aren’t going to care what their MPGe is. For them it’s meaningless. What they’re going to care about is how much gas they use. My guess here is that a lot of people will get in excess of 250 MPG.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    A +230 MPGe would be comparing to that of a car that gets 10 mpg, that’s what we should use as a basline! I am using the 38 mpg CS for the Volt as the baseline or you can just compare it the the Cruze MPG and the Volt in EV mode has an MPGe of ~80 based of ~31KWh for 100 miles which includes charging losses at .12 cents KWh and $2.8 per gallon of gas wich takes you 38 miles. I undertand the whole oil independence thing but I am talking about cost effectiveness. So at 11.78 KWh for 38 miles is $1.41 vs 38 miles gas is $2.8 and 2.8/1.41 ~2.
    So 38MPG *2 = 76MPGe based on what you are paying. Hopefully the charging is slightly more efficient than the Tesla. Using CAFE standards is slightly more generous. This is why GM retracted on the 230 MPG I think you should too.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:50 pm)

    James,
    Here’s one:

    692uft.jpg

    And two:

    2j14ex4.jpg


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (4:56 pm)

    EricLG:
    PART of the power flow, I think. The remainder goes ICE -> G ->Inverter->battery->inverter->Motor->wheels.    

    You do realize that what you’re saying is not even possible. The battery can’t be both charged and discharged at the same time. If there’s a surplus of energy from the ICE then the battery will be charged, the rest of it goes directly to the motor. When the battery is discharged again it would have incurred double conversion losses, but I suppose that this is somehow less efficient than the surplus going ICE -> space and other surroundings (i.e. zero efficiency), because I keep hearing that argument being made here from time to time.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (5:18 pm)

    EricLG:

    Look at the Tesla data again. 51% average conversion efficiency at power plants burning NG, even ignoring pre and post processing energy costs, is only 50% at CHP plants. And do you really believe 110 wh/km as a usual, daily driver figure. Tesla is usually quite honest, but they do tend to wear rose-colored glasses and cherry pick data.    

    For starters, I changed the data for the Volt to use its actual Wh/km figure given the Volt uses 10.4kWh and goes 40 miles on that energy (converted to km).

    Your pre-processing comment is amusing. Does it take zero energy to refine gas? We shouldn’t factor that in though, right? I think there’s a lot more energy used in the processing to turn oil to gasoline than there is in turning natural gas to… natural gas. If anything their numbers are being generous for gas engines.

    Right, they cherry pick data, not you…

    join thE REVolution


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    EricLG:
    Look at the Tesla data again. 51% average conversion efficiency at power plants burning NG, even ignoring pre and post processing energy costs, is only 50% at CHP plants. And do you really believe 110 wh/km as a usual, daily driver figure. Tesla is usually quite honest, but they do tend to wear rose-colored glasses and cherry pick data.    

    One last thought here… Natural gas plants that use the waste heat for other uses can be up to 89% effective efficiency, so again, it is your less than 50% efficient number that is cherry picked.

    join thE REVolution


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (5:27 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    Jeff, you are cherry picking and choosing a non-hybrid to defend the Volt. Compare it to the PHV Prius.If you can’t wait, wouldn’t the Leaf work better for you? You’ll get HOV lane access just like PHV Prius would.    

    Huh? I was comparing the Volt to my own gen 2 Prius (hybrid…).

    Now you want me to compare my Volt which is 4 weeks from being assembled to a future Plugin Prius for which we don’t have production vehicle specs, don’t have pricing, etc. Maybe john1071a has access to the prototype maintenance schedule manual but I don’t. I can guess that the plugin Prius will be much more likely to cold start the engine than my Volt (brisk acceleration, over 62 on the highway, after 13 miles). The Plugin Prius’s reduced battery capacity after 8-10 years will make it’s brand new “AER” even smaller. I don’t feel like waiting at least another year. If I were going to wait, I would probably get a 2013 model year Volt that will supposedly be enhanced AT-PZEV & E85 capable finally.

    Why not a Leaf? The Leaf is an excellent value and a nice car (although ugly exterior). It doesn’t work for me because I regularly drive 90-100 miles on weekends which would barely work now under ideal conditions but not under non-ideal weather and traffic and not a few years from now when the battery capacity drops. The HOV stickers are nice but I infrequently use my current ones. Also, I’ve had 3 people in the back seats 2-3 times in 7 years but it was never a necessity.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (5:37 pm)

    The Priinut gallery is here in force, I see.

    Reminder:

    DO NOT ENGAGE!

    Just vote [-1] and move on. Maybe they’ll move on if they’re ignored.

    Hey, it could happen!

    😉


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (5:46 pm)

    James:

    How about some closeups?

    34doozt.jpg

    104hks2.jpg


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (5:47 pm)

    JeremyK: “GM is expected to announce a $152 million investment in Michigan, including $112 million at the Warren Technical Center for hybrid and electric vehicle programs, adding up to 900 jobs, said a source familiar with the plans.”
    From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20101026/AUTO01/10260323/Big-3-to-invest-$2B-in-Michigan#ixzz13SxKVMjc 

    Interesting article. Ford and Chrysler both announced larger investments, but in ICE improvements (Ford’s biggest is to build 6-speed automatics). Both GM investments were for the Volt production increases.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:04 pm)

    Flaninacupboard: Aren’t those numbers reversed? What is it at 25%? The engine drives the wheels and starts from 0 rpm. Max efficiency under ideal conditions, steady state on the bench is 37%., At 25% it 170wh/mi. at 37% it’s 251wh/mi. I am looking at power going into the driveshaft, and distance driven. so the 44kwh of power in an imperial gallon of petrol turns into 11kwh at 25% and 15.4kwh at 35%.And actually, the ICE doesn’t start at 0RPM. No fuel is injected until MG1 has spun it up to 1,000RPM.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    My bad, you are correct. The lower the kwh conversion of the ICE the lower the wh/mile consumption. Something didn’t wash with the wh/mile numbers comparison you gave for the Volt v Prius, and I didn’t think it all the way through. Having a little more time, I think there are a few nits that would draw the numbers closer. To compare apples to apples efficiency at the driveshaft, you can’t use the KWh put into the battery vs the kwh coming out of the Prius ICE. If the Volt uses 10.4kwh (that is the KWh number Lyle gave above and some from GM have given but others from GM have given 9.6kwh recently) of the battery full charge, only about 96% will make it out of the battery. Then you have to apply the inverter (96%) and motor (95%) inefficiencies to get to the driveshaft. Thus the actual kwh at the driveshaft is more like 9.1kwh. You also have to normalize the range.

    Your wh/mile numbers translate into about 54mpg(US). I contend that driving a Prius in a manner to achieve this economy will yield around 45 miles of range in the Volt. Thus the comparable efficiency of the Volt is 9100/45 or 202whr/mile while being driven in like conditions. I believe the inequities seen in CS mode mpg are mostly due to less efficient ICE operation rather than the drivetrain or weight or Cd. This is good however, since the weight and ICE can be easily improved upon in future generations.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:06 pm)

    A lot of posts to-day compared the Volt battery/warranty with the LEAF. It is important to note that they are not the same chemistry. The LEAF battery is more robust, similar to the A123, but the trade-off is that it has lower energy density. GM could have made the same decision, but choose LG’s lithium polymer batteries with higher energy density. A123 argued that GM should chose theirs because they would’t have to have so much reserve. Bottom line is that the LEAF battery doesn’t need the same temperature control required by Volt’s battery. Nissan engineers know what they are doing, and so do GM engineers. They both had the same opportunities, but made different decisions. This is not a case of one being right and the other being wrong. I think GM’s engineers were betting on gradual improvement in LG’s batteries that would allow more usable range as time goes on. This may already have happened.

    Another interesting point is that Nissan has said the LEAF batteries will be upgraded within 2 years to double the mileage! They cannot do this if they stick with the existing chemistry, so I think they may be changing over to the same type as used in the Volt.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:14 pm)

    Hal: I have my test drive in DC on Saturday.Any questions ya’ll have for me to ask on your behalves?    

    kdawg: Assuming you have one, can you plug in your Ipod and let us know what the interface is like? Are your songs displayed on the Volt’s screen and are you given control of the Ipod w/the steering wheel controls?

    … and also note if there is a closed compartment to keep the plugged-in iPod (or thumb drive); or does it just lay in the right seat when operating? Honda has a small compartment with a cable, and the iPod is operated through the radio: much safer IMO (and certainly neater).


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:19 pm)

    Jackson: … and also note if there is a closed compartment to keep the plugged-in iPod (or thumb drive); or does it just lay in the right seat when operating?Honda has a small compartment with a cable, and the iPod is operated through the radio: much safer IMO (and certainly neater).    

    From the owners manual p 1-2, 1-3, 1-16, 4-1; there is an instrument panel storage area with an auxiliary power outlet. This is above the center stack display (toward windshield).


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:25 pm)

    Jackson,

    Great pictures. It’s too bad they’re not producing that red this year. Wish they were. :(

    join thE REVolution


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    MichaelH

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:36 pm)

    ClarksonCote: It’s too bad they’re not producing that red this year.

    Well, here’s the red that is this year, and, JMO, I like it better (I guess that’s what like means – JMO. 😎 ).

    2psn3ua.jpg


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:39 pm)

    MichaelH: there is an instrument panel storage area with an auxiliary power outlet.

    … but is there a USB connector for digital connection to the radio? An “auxiliary power outlet” sounds like the usual (and conventional) cigarette-lighter-derived outlet.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    This is a test. I cannot post from my other account all of a sudden.

    EDIT:

    Here is the completely innocuous comment I tried 3 times to post:

    ClarksonCote: Jackson,
    Great pictures.It’s too bad they’re not producing that red this year.Wish they were.
    join thE REVolution    

    Thanks, but they came from a link provided by James, above. I just downloaded, hosted & posted.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:48 pm)

    Jackson:
    … but is there a USB connector for digital connection to the radio?An “auxiliary power outlet” sounds like the usual (and conventional) cigarette-lighter-derived outlet.    

    Yes there is auxiliary input, USB, and blue tooth built in. The aux in and USB are in the center stack. I just mentioned the aux power in the storage area to say that there are three aux power outlets total. One in the instrument panel storage area, one in the front of the console and one in the rear of the console.
    Michael


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:50 pm)

    Jackson:
    … but is there a USB connector for digital connection to the radio?An “auxiliary power outlet” sounds like the usual (and conventional) cigarette-lighter-derived outlet.    

    There is a USB input in the center console underneath the armrest. There is a storage area there where the USB plug is located.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:53 pm)

    Krahnos,

    make the IMG’s img’s

    And you are correct, the aux in and USB are in the center console. Page1-14 says “center stack.” That may be a typo or there may be inputs there too.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:58 pm)

    Krahnos:
    There is a USB input in the center console underneath the armrest. There is a storage area there where the USB plug is located.    


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    Krahnos

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (6:59 pm)

    Picture962.jpg


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:00 pm)

    Krahnos:
    There is a USB input in the center console underneath the armrest. There is a storage area there where the USB plug is located.    

    Thanks!


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:03 pm)

    Jackson,

    I finally saw the “add picture” link. ^_^

    Just a pic from my test drive during the Volt Unplugged. I really wanted to check out all the things that don’t typically get covered.. like number of power points, USB input, storage space.. important stuff!


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:08 pm)

    JCook: Also the MPGe calculations are straight forward look at the new EPA labels(small print at the bottom).

    Oh, you’re talking about illustrative labels put out for public comment not the labels any consumer will actually see. Not seeing the point of that.

    As for your idea that there will be a conversion to MPGe which is fundamentally different from how it works for CAFE — not happening. Too confusing to have two completely different MPGe numbers and MPGe is meaningless to consumers. But if it did the Volt would still get over 100 MPGe. Car & Driver got over 152 MPGe doing it your way.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:11 pm)

    100_1259.jpg?t=1288137961

    Do the red strips under the rear hatch illuminate? Is this a reflection or from a camera flash? GM reps were displaying the parking brake feature during demo drives in Hollywood. Does the owners manual mention indicators? This photo was taken under overcast skies at 1PM in the afternoon.

    =D-Volt


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    DonC

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:15 pm)

    CookJ: So at 11.78 KWh for 38 miles is $1.41 vs 38 miles gas is $2.8 and 2.8/1.41 ~2.
    So 38MPG *2 = 76MPGe based on what you are paying.

    MPGe is an energy number. Dollars have nothing to do with it. But if it did your numbers are off. If you get 38 miles using 10 kWh, and a kWh costs $.10, then you could go 114 miles on $3 (where I am gas is $3.29/gallon).

    But this isn’t how MPGe is calculated. MPGe is an energy equivalent not a dollar equivalent. I don’t object to comparing things on a dollar basis, in fact for a consumer cost per mile would be meaningful, but then you’d need some other measure, like MilesPerDollar or MPDe.


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    Krahnos

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:16 pm)

    Dave K.: Do the red strips under the rear hatch illuminate? Is this a reflection or from a camera flash?
    GM reps were displaying the parking brake feature during demo drives in Hollywood. Does the owners manual mention indicators? This photo was taken under overcast skies at 1PM in the afternoon.=D-Volt    

    I’m pretty sure they’re reflectors.

    Incidentally, I found out the reverse light is located dead center on the bottom of the back fender! ^_^ Interesting placement.


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    evnow

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:20 pm)

    DonC: Nice chart. I’d do two things: (1) Have a second chart which showed two chargers per day for up to 40 miles (for the Leaf as well, the 40 miles has more to do with 120V charging than anything else); and (2) add in some extra $$$ for rentals on those days you’d be using a car in place of the B.

    You mean 2 charges per day ?

    The rentals for the BEV already have $50/day for rentals + the fuel expenses.

    As to which one is more fun to drive, what’s funny is that if I had to guess I would have said the Leaf was slower to 60 MPH but it turns out it’s faster. So there is perception and reality.  

    I’m sceptical about the 7 sec 0-60 claim by greencar folks. We need someone to connect an instrument that can accurate readings. Anyway “mwalsh” from the Leaf forum had drives today in TN. Let us see what he comes up with.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:23 pm)

    100_1255.jpg?t=1288138885

    Looks slick in black. Still haven’t seen a full view of the Volt in white.

    =D-Volt


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:23 pm)

    Krahnos:
    I’m pretty sure they’re reflectors.Incidentally, I found out the reverse light is located dead center on the bottom of the back fender! ^_^ Interesting placement.    

    I agree. Other photos definitely look like reflectors. The owners manual doesn’t mention them and it does show the location of the back-up light as you mentioned.


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    kdawg

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:27 pm)

    Roy H: A lot of posts to-day compared the Volt battery/warranty with the LEAF. It is important to note that they are not the same chemistry. The LEAF battery is more robust, similar to the A123, but the trade-off is that it has lower energy density. GM could have made the same decision, but choose LG’s lithium polymer batteries with higher energy density. A123 argued that GM should chose theirs because they would’t have to have so much reserve. Bottom line is that the LEAF battery doesn’t need the same temperature control required by Volt’s battery. Nissan engineers know what they are doing, and so do GM engineers. They both had the same opportunities, but made different decisions. This is not a case of one being right and the other being wrong. I think GM’s engineers were betting on gradual improvement in LG’s batteries that would allow more usable range as time goes on. This may already have happened.
    Another interesting point is that Nissan has said the LEAF batteries will be upgraded within 2 years to double the mileage! They cannot do this if they stick with the existing chemistry, so I think they may be changing over to the same type as used in the Volt

    GM is also testing pretty much every battery tech out there too. So you never know what’s coming next. I forget when LG’s contract is up.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:30 pm)

    Krahnos: There is a USB input in the center console underneath the armrest. There is a storage area there where the USB plug is located.

    Very good entertainment feature.

    NPNS


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    MichaelH

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:35 pm)

    Dave K.: Still haven’t seen a full view of the Volt in white.

    Here’s close to a full view:

    21o30wp.jpg


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:37 pm)

    MichaelH,

    Does the owner’s manual list the maintenance frequencies?
    If these were posted before I missed them.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:39 pm)

    262613.jpg

    Odd that the aero side view mirrors were used during testing and not used on the final product. Build costs are a big concern, but so are battery range and CS mpg. Can this be why Lyle’s Consumer Advisory Board Volt delivery is delayed. Last minute tweaking before the world views the 2011 production Volt.

    =D-Volt


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:42 pm)

    Roy H: The LEAF battery is more robust, similar to the A123, but the trade-off is that it has lower energy density.

    The Leaf and Volt battery both use manganese on the cathode. A123 uses iron phosphate. I suspect the Volt and Leaf batteries are quite similar. And ALL lithium batteries can’t stand high temperatures.

    FWIW Renault signed a very big battery supply deal with LG Chem.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:45 pm)

    kdawg: MichaelH,
    Does the owner’s manual list the maintenance frequencies?
    If these were posted before I missed them.    

    Yes. Chapter 11 is Service and Maintenance. 11-3 has monthly, every 7500 miles, every 12 months, every 24 months, every 50,000 miles, every 100,000 miles, every 150,000 miles or every 5 years, and every 150,000 miles or every 10 years. What were you interested in?


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:46 pm)

    MichaelH: Here’s close to a full view:

    The Volt looks good in white.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:50 pm)

    DonC:
    The Volt looks good in white.    

    Yes, it does. Remember it’s premium White Diamond Tri-coat originally from Cadillac, now at your Volt dealer for only $995. 😉


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    MichaelH

     

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:57 pm)

    kdawg,

    Engine oil and filter are 24,000 miles or when the “CHANGE ENGINE OIL SOON” message displays. Spark plugs are 100,000 miles. Cooling system is 150,000 miles or 5 years which ever comes first.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (7:57 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:01 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:09 pm)

    MichaelH: Yes. Chapter 11 is Service and Maintenance. 11-3 has monthly, every 7500 miles, every 12 months, every 24 months, every 50,000 miles, every 100,000 miles, every 150,000 miles or every 5 years, and every 150,000 miles or every 10 years. What were you interested in?

    Basically when to change all the different fluids.

    Edit: Just saw your post at 254. Thanks.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:10 pm)

    OT

    I came upon this link on replacing our roadways with solar arrays. It’s a great idea and sounds very feasible:

    http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/09/solar-roadways-fix-the-power-grid-and-crumbling-pavement/

    Asphalt is getting more expensive; many municipalities can’t afford it anymore. We can rebuild our roads and supply our grid with all the energy we need to power electric transportation. Plus the cost of building such roads will pay for themselves. Take a look at the video.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    MichaelH

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:15 pm)

    kdawg,

    Every 12 months you basically check everything in the car, including the accelerator pedal and parking brake. 😉


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:27 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    All 3 coolants? I would think the battery and inverter coolants would be used more often than the gas engine coolant.    

    150,000 miles or 5 years is Engine cooling system. Manual says it is designed to remain in the vehicle 150,000 miles or 5 years. All fluids are checked monthly, all cooling systems (includes hoses etc.) are checked every 12 months. No mandatory change of battery or inverter coolants listed in maintenance schedule. There is a mandatory specification for the coolant to be used in each. That sounds like otherwise void the warranty. Air conditioning system flush and refill every 10 years.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:33 pm)

    JeremyK: From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20101026/AUTO01/10260323/Big-3-to-invest-$2B-in-Michigan#ixzz13SxKVMjc JeremyK

    The best part of this is that “The incentives are contingent on creating promised jobs.”

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:40 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    All 3 coolants? I would think the battery and inverter coolants would be used more often than the gas engine coolant.    

    There are three loops, but do they share one reservoir? It may only be one “fluid” just in different temperature loops.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:45 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Here we go again. Troll-babies.    

    LOL. 😉

    Happy trails to you CorvetteGuy.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (8:48 pm)

    Matthew_B:
    There are three loops, but do they share one reservoir?It may only be one “fluid” just in different temperature loops.    

    Three loops: 1) engine, 2) high voltage battery, and 3) power electronics/charger modules (combined loop). Manual 10-15, -16, and -17 discuss checking fluids separately, i.e., three reservoirs. Each one is called a “system.”


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    nasaman

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:26 pm)

    OT, but something I want to talk about. I see the Volt as a luxury Sport Sedan with FOUR luxurious bucket seats. It reminds me of a 2+2 IROC Z28 I once owned with 4 seats, 2 superb buckets in front & 2 barely useable seats in back — the important difference is the Volt’s rear buckets are as comfy as the front ones! But one thing my IROC Z28 & the Volt have in common is that I could flatten the rear seats to give me plenty of room under its huge hatchback to haul an amazing amount of big stuff —or even to “nappypoo” in a sleeping bag overnite at a truck stop or roadside park on an overnite trip in the Volt while charging up. Gotta LUV IT!

    74666_461154636008_106095626008_5483779_6315015_n.jpg71707_461154566008_106095626008_5483775_7596290_n.jpg


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:31 pm)

    MichaelH:
    Well, here’s the red that is this year, and, JMO, I like it better (I guess that’s what like means – JMO.).    

    Is that really this year’s red? It looks lighter than the brochures I’ve seen for the exterior colors. If that is the color, I agree with you that it looks great! :)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): This is a test.I cannot post from my other account all of a sudden.EDIT:Here is the completely innocuous comment I tried 3 times to post:
    Thanks, but they came from a link provided by James, above.I just downloaded, hosted & posted.    

    Thanks Jackson, I should’ve done a shout out for James too, really love the Volt with that red. I get too flustered by the trolls, I need to relax and breathe, making more calculated posts. 😉

    join thE REVolution


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:31 pm)

    Ohhh…. and I really like the charcoal center stack!
    33485_461558156008_106095626008_5490074_2986037_n.jpg

    [These and the 2 photos in my post above are from Chevy’s new interior photo album at http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/chevroletvolt ]


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:34 pm)

    Loboc:
    Lol. How much coal is burned in California to produce electricity again?    

    I had by passed Kent’s comment but after reading what you have to say, I had to go back and -1 him. It’s not surprising how uninformed the trolls are after reading many of their statements. Even though they are corrected on the same subject time and time again they just stick to their nonsense. LOL.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    UAW_Thugs Must_Die

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:37 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:43 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: OTI came upon this link on replacing our roadways with solar arrays. It’s a great idea and sounds very feasible:
    http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/09/solar-roadways-fix-the-power-grid-and-crumbling-pavement/Asphalt is getting more expensive; many municipalities can’t afford it anymore. We can rebuild our roads and supply our grid with all the energy we need to powerelectric transportation. Plus the cost of building such roads will pay for themselves. Take a look at the video.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.    

    So; if you break the road, do you get 7 years’ bad insurance rates? 😉

    Seems like another possibility would be (once a thermal nano-antenna becomes possible*) harnessing the heat which naturally accumulates in asphalt under sunny conditions — and persists well into the night. Yes, there is at least one proposal to harness parking-lots as solar-thermal collectors to provide space heating for adjacent buildings (this requires no electrical conversion; the heat is used directly).

    *I may be remembering the name wrong. Basically, it would transform heat directly into electricity with greater efficiency than a thermocouple; the only other direct thermal-to-electrical energy conversion. Right now, the nano-antenna is only a theory.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (9:48 pm)

    nasaman: or even to “nappypoo”

    “nappypoo?” You really need to go easy on that NASA jargon … 😉


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:05 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:20 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:30 pm)

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:42 pm)

    Jackson: I may be remembering the name wrong. Basically, it would transform heat directly into electricity with greater efficiency than a thermocouple

    I, also, saw this; believe is was in Physics.org newsletter. The article specifically mentioned automotive applications, among others.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (10:44 pm)

    joe: Today must be troll day. Hey trolls, look at what Wards Auto has to say about the Leaf.Like I’ve said many times before, the Leaf will start out as a fad and will fade away like a fad.http://wardsauto.com/ar/volt_smart_compromise_101026/    

    Hey Joe, please step away from your bottle long enough to clear your head and think straight before you make stupid commens. Thanks in advance. :-)


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    JCook

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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:13 pm)

    DonC: MPGe is an energy number. Dollars have nothing to do with it. But if it did your numbers are off. If you get 38 miles using 10 kWh, and a kWh costs $.10, then you could go 114 miles on $3 (where I am gas is $3.29/gallon). But this isn’t how MPGe is calculated. MPGe is an energy equivalent not a dollar equivalent. I don’t object to comparing things on a dollar basis, in fact for a consumer cost per mile would be meaningful, but then you’d need some other measure, like MilesPerDollar or MPDe.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    Actually I was using avg numbers and normally where gas is 3.20 a gallon electricity is higher than .10 per KWh. MPGe is a energy consumed comparison but it is at a cost!! See the EPA sample labels. My numbers are based on an average. I am not wrong sorry to bust your 230 MPG bubble. To call it 230MPG you would have to get 230 miles on what 1 gallon of gas cost!! Not going to happen!!

    Also you don’t get 38 mile on 10KWh, you have to include charging loses. It will be closer to 12.5KWh, I don’t know how many times I have to bring up system loses on this site. You still pay for that extra 2.5KWh so you have to include it.


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    Oct 26th, 2010 (11:24 pm)

    DonC: Oh, you’re talking about illustrative labels put out for public comment not the labels any consumer will actually see. Not seeing the point of that.As for your idea that there will be a conversion to MPGe which is fundamentally different from how it works for CAFE — not happening. Too confusing to have two completely different MPGe numbers and MPGe is meaningless to consumers. But if it did the Volt would still get over 100 MPGe. Car & Driver got over 152 MPGe doing it your way.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    They didn’t include charging loses and I think they used the 8.8 KWh for there AER cost and MPGe is important to the consumer, it’s what determines cost of ownership. Any other comments. I will remind you I have not been wrong about any subject of the Volt thus far.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (12:00 am)

    evnow: I’m sceptical about the 7 sec 0-60 claim by greencar folks.

    I got 9.8s but the road was wet, I had to turn a corner to start, and I had to start braking before I got to the light. Makes it hard to tell. It may be possible but not likely something I’d ever do in real life. Getting to 60 MPH on a city street in such a short distance doesn’t usually get you anywhere! If you want to test this yourself you might want to run a predetermined distance and see the MPH at the end. I’m thinking that’s easier than trying to time it directly.

    Enough people seem to be reporting 7(ish)s numbers so I’m inclined to go with it.

    /I see that you’ve included rental costs. I missed that. The double charges a day I’d expect from cars with smaller battery packs. If not then I can’t see people bothering.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (3:01 am)

    Seems like the battery GM is developed is working better than first thought or has recently been improved. JCook can you draw me a picture so that I can’t understand your point. What are charging losses ? and maybe GM has factored in your concern.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (4:07 am)

    i tend to disagree with your sentiment; i think that CARB is being realistic in evaluating the volt whne the ICE is operating. one of the realities of life in california is the long commute; i think that it is safe to say that for a lot of people, the ICE will operate. so when it does operate, it is reasonable for CARB to get a measure of how much the volt is likely to pollute when the ICE is operating. in the case of the volt, the ICE produces relatively high levels of CO in comparison to other hybrid vehicles. it’s all about tradeoffs, i’m sure, and while the effective CO/mile is reduced by the EV operation, the CARB has to account for worst case scenarios (for example, a volt owner who lives in an apartment building without access to an electric outlet) as opposed to best case scenarios (a person who recharges daily and never drives beyond the EV range).

    nasaman: PS to my post #13: I’m equally confident GM will be able to extend the battery warranty to meet California requirements: 10yrs-150k miles. However, I strongly feel that CARB is both unfair and unreasonable in NOT taking the Volt’s EV mode into account!!!    


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (4:19 am)

    i would suggest that you look at some of the youtube videos on the autonetwork channel that concern the volt. i believe they were put up about a week ago. included is a seminar style presentation on the volt battery. it is actually quite well designed. the reason why it takes up so much space (relatively speaking) is that there is a liquid cooling fin between each of the battery cells. since this allows gm to achieve (in principle) more precise control over battery temperatures than the air-cooled batteries that you tend to see in other EVs, i would expect that the volt would have better lifetime performance than you would get in some of the other EVs (i don’t have any info on the prius plug-in hybrid battery). for example, tesla doesn’t warrant their batteries for longer than 4 years. while nissan provides an 8 year warranty on their battery, the conditions for the nissan battery warranty are not what i would have expected, so there is a certain degree to which some of this stuff my be a case of “caveat emptor”.

    True That: Yes, NOW we finally know the truth and basically how ill-conceived this Volt really was. Even the T-shaped battery is poorly designed and takes considerable interior space when compared to the other EVs out there. Makes one wonder if this car is really worth that $41K sticker. I would be willing to bet that the Prius and LEAF greatly outsell the Volt every year.Hopefully GM learns from the many mistakes on the Volt and takes some clues from the more advanced EVs to produce a much better second gen Volt. But I have my doubts as they are already making excuses for not having other voltec hybrids ready.
    With MPG in the mid to low thirties and max EV range of only 40 miles this car looks weak compared to the many 100+ range EVs that will soon hit our shores at much lower prices.Like someone very smart once said “It may be time to bitch-slap a Volt owner since they deserve it on so many levels.”    


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (4:43 am)

    JCook: To call it 230MPG you would have to get 230 miles on what 1 gallon of gas cost!! Not going to happen!!

    If the Volt ran gasoline only I would agree with you. 230 mpg just wouldn’t make sense.

    Everyone is segmenting the Volt into 1000 parts and analyzing each piece. Look at the Volt as one whole car. Drive this car for a year on one tank of gasoline along with 120V garage recharge and you arrive at 1280mpg before electric conversion. Convert this to gasoline equivalent and you have: 9 gallons (liquid fuel) @ $3.20 (342 miles) + 11,565 miles on electricity. With 40 miles of electric driving costing $1.

    11,565 (electric miles) / 40 (range per charge) = $291 (120V cost per year). Convert $291 to gallons @ $3.20 = 91 (electric gallons equivalent).

    91 EV gallons + 9 liquid gallons = 100 gallons (equivalent) to travel 12,000 miles = 120 mpg (equivalent).

    How many gallons will come from free opportunity and workplace recharge? How many from low cost home solar recharge? How many from free EV friendly business parking? The Volt EPA combined could very well be 120 MPG. What the Volt driver actually realizes may be triple this.

    =D-Volt


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    CONSUMER REPORTS

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    Oct 27th, 2010 (6:01 am)

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    Oct 27th, 2010 (6:08 am)

    Given the production numbers, I think everybody will have plenty of time to hear all they need to know from the nightly news, over the course of next year. How much gas people end up buying to do what they normally do everyday should tell an interesting story.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (6:40 am)

    no comment: i tend to disagree with your sentiment; i think that CARB is being realistic in evaluating the volt whne the ICE is operating. one of the realities of life in california is the long commute; i think that it is safe to say that for a lot of people, the ICE will operate. so when it does operate, it is reasonable for CARB to get a measure of how much the volt is likely to pollute when the ICE is operating. in the case of the volt, the ICE produces relatively high levels of CO in comparison to other hybrid vehicles. it’s all about tradeoffs, i’m sure, and while the effective CO/mile is reduced by the EV operation, the CARB has to account for worst case scenarios (for example, a volt owner who lives in an apartment building without access to an electric outlet) as opposed to best case scenarios (a person who recharges daily and never drives beyond the EV range).
    ==========================================================
    nasaman: PS to my post #13: I’m equally confident GM will be able to extend the battery warranty to meet California requirements: 10yrs-150k miles. However, I strongly feel that CARB is both unfair and unreasonable in NOT taking the Volt’s EV mode into account!!!

    What you’re overlooking is that the very testing that established the Volt design objective of 40 miles in EV mode was obtained from government mileage tests of California commuters in the Los Angeles area and it established that 78% of all daily trips would be completed in EV mode only; i.e., without need to run the Volt’s ICE at all.

    Therefore, it would only be fair for CARB to apply the identical daily commute statistics to determine Volt’s pollution level —i.e., with its ICE running only 22% of the time —and with it in EV mode the remaining 78% of the time.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (6:59 am)

    evnow:
    Here is my comparison. If you use Lease rates, Volt will do better.    

    This is an outstanding chart. Thanks for posting it. I was surprised to see how small the difference was between the 13mpg and 40mpg PHEVs. However, in the real world, only a small percentage of buyers would incur the cost of rentals shown for the Leaf because most Leaf buyers either won’t drive outside their 100 mile range or they will own two or more cars, so they would just take their gas car on their longer trips. Frankly, if I owned a Volt, I probably wouldn’t take it on a long trip either because it is too small to accommodate the stuff I carry when the family travels. Still, this is an outstanding chart. Thanks for sharing.


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    EricLG

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    Oct 27th, 2010 (7:05 am)

    Nasaman, if you agree to have a regulator installed to shut off the Volt ICE so that 22% of miles in ICE mode are not exceeded, I accept your argument.

    It’s amusing how much noise one crappy study can lead to blog noise. The ‘miles per day’ survey DID NOT say that 78% of trips are less than 40 miles, the survey reported that 78% of respondents said that their work commute was less than 40 miles. Note the differences:

    1. Driving unrelated to work was not evaluated;
    2. Trips over 40 miles will have a proportionately larger weighting in overall car use.


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    EricLG

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    Oct 27th, 2010 (7:13 am)

    kForceZero: Who said WH is a “measure of electricity” anyway, that doesn’t even make sense. The question implied that it is difficult to measure WH in a hybrid, not that it’s impossible.

    No, maroon. It is trivial to measure wh in a hybrid.

    Try mpg*g/34.5 for miles/kwh. It is simply energy/distance


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    Dave K.

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    Oct 27th, 2010 (7:21 am)

    EricLG: …respondents said that their work commute was less than 40 miles.

    Up until recently these drivers would need to use gasoline for their commute. Starting this December the drivers of hybrids and non-hybrids will be able to trade them in on full EV Leaf or EREV Volts. After December people who own EV and EREV will keep battery range in mind when driving.

    The Volt will transport me to work and back, with a side stop, on one battery charge. My workplace is EV friendly. So I’ll return home with over 20 miles EV range remaining. I will then top off the battery in my garage for 50 cents.

    =D-Volt


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    EricLG

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    Oct 27th, 2010 (7:24 am)

    ClarksonCote: For starters, I changed the data

    Per EIA, NG combustion efficiency in the US in 2010:
    http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epat5p4.html
    Divide 3413 by the btu value given to obtain efficiency.

    Simple reasoning should tell you that if the wh/mile of the Volt is more than the Prius, and the powerplant efficiency of the NG plant is no better than the Prius ICE, it is impossible for the volt to have a lower btu/mile rating than the Prius.

    Feel free to google what fraction of NG plants are CHP


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    stuey81_in_australia

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    Oct 27th, 2010 (7:26 am)

    hope lyle posts a new story soon telling us he just picked up his advisory team trial volt

    stuey

    anyone know what the hold up is?


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    I have to wonder about GM and Nissan’s timing of car releases in the winter.
    “Yes, Volt owner, while it sucks that you can only travel 25 miles a charge, we PROMISE your range will improve next summer.”

    “Go to winter-driving-tips.GM” for great advice how to expand your horizon. Just to wet your appetite, did you know that turning off the heater will do wonders?”

    I am so looking forward to a C&D review. LOL


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (8:16 am)

    nasaman: What you’re overlooking is that the very testing that established the Volt design objective of 40 miles in EV mode was obtained from government mileage tests of California commuters in the Los Angeles area and it established that 78% of all daily trips would be completed in EV mode only; i.e., without need to run the Volt’s ICE at all.Therefore, it would only be fair for CARB to apply the identical daily commute statistics to determine Volt’s pollution level —i.e., with its ICE running only 22% of the time —and with it in EV mode the remaining 78% of the time.  (Quote)  (Reply)

    I’ve been railing against CARB’s requirements as they relate to EREVs for a long time and wholeheartedly agree that any classification regarding emissions should account for AER. Of course, the car must have a “real” AER like the Volt or Karma to be counted. It’s extremely dissappointing that after 3 years of knowing what EREV’s basic architecture of x miles AER plus CS mode would be, CARB has not addressed them adequately. I do, however, think that 78% CD mode would be a little misleading since that is drives and not miles. They should derive the % of miles driven less than the AER, which could end up being very similar but that would be coincidental. The percent of miles that fall within the AER may even be higher than 78%.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    Dave K.: If the Volt ran gasoline only I would agree with you. 230 mpg just wouldn’t make sense. Everyone is segmenting the Volt into 1000 parts and analyzing each piece. Look at the Volt as one whole car. Drive this car for a year on one tank of gasoline along with 120V garage recharge and you arrive at 1280mpg before electric conversion. Convert this to gasoline equivalent and you have: 9 gallons (liquid fuel) @ $3.20 (342 miles) + 11,565 miles on electricity. With 40 miles of electric driving costing $1. 11,565 (electric miles) / 40 (range per charge) = $291 (120V cost per year). Convert $291 to gallons @ $3.20 = 91 (electric gallons equivalent). 91 EV gallons + 9 liquid gallons = 100 gallons (equivalent) to travel 12,000 miles = 120 mpg (equivalent). How many gallons will come from free opportunity and workplace recharge? How many from low cost home solar recharge? How many from free EV friendly business parking? The Volt EPA combined could very well be 120 MPG. What the Volt driver actually realizes may be triple this.=D-Volt  (Quote)  (Reply)

    It cost more than 1 dollar for 40 miles. 10.4 KWh with ~15-20% loss in charging so 12.5KWh @ .12=1.50. Use these numbers and losses as they are real world now your numbers will come out right. Using rose colored glasses makes the avg. consumer think you are deceptive!!

    The EPA combined will be ~95MPGe conservatively, anyone want to take bets on this.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (12:39 pm)

    DonC:
    I got 9.8s but the road was wet, I had to turn a corner to start, and I had to start braking before I got to the light. Makes it hard to tell. It may be possible but not likely something I’d ever do in real life……..
    Enough people seem to be reporting 7(ish)s numbers so I’m inclined to go with it.    

    I’ve seen multiple stories that all point back to one original source for the 7 second number.

    Motor Trend is now out with a new detailed drive review of the Leaf on their website. They clocked the Leaf doing 0-60 in around 10 seconds.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (4:37 pm)

    Just for the record I think the Generation I Leaf utilizes 17.6 Kwh, stopping the recharge at 90% (21.6) and turning on the “low energy light” at 4 kwh. Yes the design allows you to go lower, but it may needless increase loss of storage capacity over time.


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    Oct 27th, 2010 (6:17 pm)

    I’m beginning to wonder if some of the trolls are paid by Nissan and Toyota. If not, they must be unemployed, because I can’t believe that some of these dimwits could hold jobs anywhere else. If they do hold other jobs, they must be cheating their employers out of a lot of time.


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    Oct 28th, 2010 (1:50 am)

    no, the reason why the CARB should not use the measure that you are suggesting is that the certification should act as a guarantee and not as a guess. by doing a worst case measure, the CARB is able to make a guarantee the the volt will operate no worse than as certified.

    nasaman:
    What you’re overlooking is that the very testing that established the Volt design objective of 40 miles in EV mode was obtained from government mileage tests of California commuters in the Los Angeles area and it established that 78% of all daily trips would be completed in EV mode only; i.e., without need to run the Volt’s ICE at all.Therefore, it would only be fair for CARB to apply the identical daily commute statistics to determine Volt’s pollution level —i.e., with its ICE running only 22% of the time —and with it in EV mode the remaining 78% of the time.