Sep 23

GM: Chevrolet Volt Has a Typical EV Range of 25 to 50 Miles

 


[ad#post_ad]Forty miles of electric range has been the magic number for a very long time, in fact it was part of the Chevrolet Volt concept initial press release back in January 2007.

The idea is that about 75% of drivers drive less than 40 miles per day and will therefore not use any gas while driving the Volt.

GM has said all along that the Volt would achieve that objective but has made it clear that driving behavior and environment could change that number in real world situations; the generator will go on when the battery reaches about 32% state of charge no matter how it gets there.

Today GM filed an updated S1 filing with the US Security and Exchange commission in preparation for its IPO. Buried in that 560 page document was GM’s first admission of the real world EV range expected from the car:

“When powered only from electricity stored in its 16-kWh lithium-ion battery; the Chevrolet Volt has a typical range of 25-50 miles depending on terrain, driving technique, temperature and battery age”

I had the chance to discuss this with Volt spokesperson Rob Peterson.

“We’ve always said up to 40,” said Peterson. Now we “tweaked the EV range to from 25 to 50.”

Peterson explains that GM now has over one million engineering miles with Chevrolet Volt test cars and they are very comfortable with this range which is based on that experience.

He points out some drivers will achieve more than 40 miles of range. “A conservative driver under ideal conditions will get more than 40 miles,” he said. “We don’t often highlight this potential to go beyond 40″

Peterson also says the 25 mile range is “pretty darn close” to the worst case scenario. This would be extreme cold temperatures, with the cabin heating system at full blast driven by a very aggressive driver going mostly uphill.

Peterson said now that the car is so close to launch, “we want consumers to understand” what types of real world electric range they could expect.

“A moderate driver is going to achieve what their expectations are,” he added.

Source (SEC)
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This entry was posted on Thursday, September 23rd, 2010 at 4:07 pm and is filed under Efficiency. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 261


  1. 1
    Robert

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:14 pm)

    About what I thought,
    sounds like true real world numbers


  2. 2
    john1701a

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:14 pm)

    Peterson also says the 25 mile range is “pretty darn close” to the worst case scenario. This would be extreme cold temperatures, with the cabin heating system at full blast driven by a very aggressive driver going mostly uphill.

    32 miles for the threshold during a typical Minnesota winter commute appears to be pretty realistic based upon several sources now, including Nissan’s estimate.


  3. 3
    Tagamet

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:18 pm)

    HUZZAH!!
    Excellent “get”, Lyle.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  4. 4
    flmark

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:19 pm)

    OK. I’ll initiate the challenge. Let’s call it the ‘Sixty Milers Club’ (over 60 miles on a charge). I’d plan on being a charter member, but no initial Volt release in FL. I am confident I can join (now that GM has used the ’50′ number) as I can get over 100,000 miles out of a set of brakes and get 50+ mpg in the Prius. Whose with me? You’ll have to watch that efficiency ball on the dash though- can’t customize the display to make the ball disappear. :)


  5. 5
    barry252

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:20 pm)

    Is anyone surprised by this? GM’s being honest with the EV range, how about mpg in CS mode??


  6. 6
    flmark

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:26 pm)

    barry252: Is anyone surprised by this? GM’s being honest with the EV range, how about mpg in CS mode??  (Quote)

    You definitely have a point. If they are saying that they can give us this number with confidence, because they have enough test miles driven, then the CS number is there as well. Hey GM, you opened the can, tell us about the other worms. And you don’t have to commit to one number, we’ll take a range on that, as well.


  7. 7
    jeffhre

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:28 pm)

    Pretty good numbers. If you do Pikes peak in a blizzard for a time trial record you could get 25 miles AER. Baby it and you could get twice that. Sounds just about right at the often projected range for the Volt’s expected kWh per mile.

    Wonder which number would be closer to what the boys on Top Gear will get, if they can pull themselves away from their hydrogen powered dream cars long enough to try to thrash a Volt around the track for a few laps?


  8. 8
    Loboc

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:28 pm)

    flmark: OK. I’ll initiate the challenge. Let’s call it the ‘Sixty Milers Club’ (over 60 miles on a charge).I’d plan on being a charter member, but no initial Volt release in FL.I am confident I can join (now that GM has used the ‘50′ number) as I can get over 100,000 miles out of a set of brakes and get 50+ mpg in the Prius.Whose with me?You’ll have to watch that efficiency ball on the dash though- can’t customize the display to make the ball disappear.   

    Well, since it’s a one-time challenge to get to 60, I’m in. I’m not going to do that every day though as I am in the 25-30 mile group. However, with traffic, you can’t be all that aggressive, so, I’ll get 40+ a lot.


  9. 9
    Tom

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:31 pm)

    Great and how big is the gas tank?
    Tom


  10. 10
    Loboc

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:33 pm)

    Ok. Where the heck are my posts going.

    Yep, I’ll take the 60-mile-club challenge flmark.


  11. 11
    Adam

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:34 pm)

    I flew from Wyoming to Las Vegas, to attend the Barrett Jackson Auto Auction. Thus fas, it’s been a good day, seen some raeally cool cars, and had had fun. GM and Ford have this ride and Drive program, is short, it’s all of the new cars, which is cool.

    We got to see the new convertanle Camaro, the Regal, etc…. Including 2 Volts…. Remember, this is a Ride and Drive program, I got to drive the new Grand Sport Corvette, it far exceeds the price of the Volt, and I was there for 3+ hours, and only 1 person got to drive it! There was a LOT of people asking to drive it, but the people working it refuse to let folks drive it!

    Great PR by GM, lets bring the car for show and tell, we have the car, but you can’t drive it! It’s disgusting gesture on GM’s part, why won’t they let the public drive it? I couldn’t get an answer from the people working it, but what do they have to hide? Like I said earlier, I flew 1000+ miles to see the new cars, and I knew GM was going to bring the Volt, talk about a major disappointment.P9230025.jpgP9230028.jpg

    They will let us sit in them though…… Wow.


  12. 12
    Cab Driver

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    john1701a: 32 miles for the threshold during a typical Minnesota winter commute appears to be pretty realistic based upon several sources now, including Nissan’s estimate.  (Quote)

    I would expect that the AER during a typical Minnesota winter commute would be very different depending on whether you left the Volt plugged in overnight and told it to “condition” the battery temperature and the cabin temperature before departure using grid electricity. This is not an unreasonable thing to do since Minnesota drivers have been accustomed for many years to conditioning their conventional vehicle’s engines with block heaters.

    The range hit for extreme temperatures will also be very affected by your average speed. If you travel at low average speed you will take more time and use more precious battery charge keeping the cabin temperature comfortable over that longer time.

    One last comment: Having gone to college in northern Wisconsin, I chose the logical way to deal with Winter by moving to southern California 35 years ago. For a smart guy, you seem to have ignored the obvious solution!


  13. 13
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:45 pm)

    Time to update some websites!


  14. 14
    john1701a

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:46 pm)

    Cab Driver: I would expect that the AER during a typical Minnesota winter commute would be very different depending on whether you left the Volt plugged in overnight and told it to “condition” the battery temperature and the cabin temperature before departure using grid electricity. This is not an unreasonable thing to do since Minnesota drivers have been accustomed for many years to conditioning their conventional vehicle’s engines with block heaters.

    No, that’s a misconception. We just let our cars sit out in the parking lot all day, without the benefit of a plug. 9 hours of temperatures well below freezing is quite routine here in Minnesota.

    Heater use is the penalty, for any vehicle. Whether heat comes from the engine or from the battery, it’s still an efficiency reduction… even if you begin the drive with pre-warming.


  15. 15
    kdawg

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:48 pm)

    The 50mile range is consistent to what Greg Ciesel said a year or so ago. Basically, if you’re a hypermiler, and in temperate conditions, you can expect over 40miles AER.


  16. 16
    neutron

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:49 pm)

    It is great to get “real data” on the range of the battery. A million miles is a good data base number. NOW…. when will we read about the “other shoe drop”…. what is a “real data” number while in generator mode? Good data is good for everyone so intelligent decisions can be made by VOLT customers. I just noticed Barry252 is asking the same question.

    A big thank you to Lyle for getting important info on the VOLT.


  17. 17
    Jackson

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:49 pm)

    Only thing I can think is that

    a) They’ve decided it’s safe to use more of the pack

    b) They’ve been holding out all along to make maximum impact when the moment is right.

    If it’s “b,” what does this say about the idea that CS-mode mpg is actually much better than many have said?!!


  18. 18
    MuddyRoverRob

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:49 pm)

    22c day with no wind and a flat road you can go 50 miles…(80 km)
    -22c, 30 cm of snow and a hilly drive… 25 miles will be remarkable!

    /sounds about right


  19. 19
    Rashiid Amul

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:50 pm)

    barry252: how about mpg in CS mode??

    Exactly what I was thinking when I was reading the post.


  20. 20
    mikeinatl.

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:56 pm)

    So mellowed-out flat-landers in moderate climates are better Volt prospects than mountain- dwellers in harsh climates who drive like the cops are after ‘em.

    (Or something like that. Stand by, we will release more on this later.)

    GO VOLT!


  21. 21
    Jackson

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:58 pm)

    Adam: Adam

    [+1] for pics, [-1] for text: net effect, [0]


  22. 22
    carcus3

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:58 pm)

    “…the generator will go on when the battery reaches about 32% state of charge no matter how it gets there.”

    _________

    32% of what?

    If that’s 32% of the entire 16 kwh’s then it’s probable GM is utilizing more than 8 kwh’s available.


  23. 23
    MuddyRoverRob

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (4:59 pm)

    mikeinatl.: So mellowed out flat-landers in moderate climates are better Volt prospects than mountain- dwellers in harsh climates who drive like the cops are after ‘em. (Or something like that. Stand by, we will release more on this later.)GO VOLT!  (Quote)

    They are going to get better economy in any case.
    Whether they are driving a Volt or an Escalade!

    A heavy foot equals lower efficency.

    The difference is that you can get away with more “silliness” in a Volt without burning any gas!


  24. 24
    LeoK

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:04 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: Exactly what I was thinking when I was reading the post.  (Quote)

    Let’s let Lyle keep reading that 560 page filing…. I doubt he’s made it through the entire thing…. and with every turn of a page his eyes dart around looking for that elusive CS number!


  25. 25
    Tagamet

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:08 pm)

    Adam: I flew from Wyoming to Las Vegas, to attend the Barrett Jackson Auto Auction.Thus fas, it’s been a good day, seen some raeally cool cars, and had had fun.GM and Ford have this ride and Drive program, is short, it’s all of the new cars, which is cool.We got to see the new convertanle Camaro, the Regal, etc….Including 2 Volts….Remember, this is a Ride and Drive program, I got to drive the new Grand Sport Corvette, it far exceeds the price of the Volt, and I was there for 3+ hours, and only 1 person got to drive it!There was a LOT of people asking to drive it, but the people working it refuse to let folks drive it!Great PR by GM, lets bring the car for show and tell, we have the car, but you can’t drive it!It’s disgusting gesture on GM’s part, why won’t they let the public drive it?I couldn’t get an answer from the people working it, but what do they have to hide?Like I said earlier, I flew 1000+ miles to see the new cars, and I knew GM was going to bring the Volt, talk about a major disappointment.They will let us sit in them though……Wow.  

    WOW! That stinks on ice! I think that they owe you a free Volt (due to the severe emotional distress they’ve inflicted), and they should buy your ticket back home (g).
    Bummer. I guess the only “plus” is that you got to sit in it (I know, small favor).
    No idea why they’d reign in the test drives like that. It’s not like it’d have been the first.

    Be well (or at least better),
    Tagamet


  26. 26
    Tagamet

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:11 pm)

    Jackson: Only thing I can think is thata) They’ve decided it’s safe to use more of the packb) They’ve been holding out all along to make maximum impact when the moment is right.If it’s “b,” what does this say about the idea that CS-mode mpg is actually much better than many have said?!!  

    You state this as if you’re surprised! Some of us have been saying >40 AER all along….(lol).

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  27. 27
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:12 pm)

    Tagamet:
    You state this as if you’re surprised! Some of us have been saying >40 AER all along….(lol).Be well,
    Tagamet  

    I’m saying that as though I’d like to slap the BS out of more than few posters who consistently say that cs-mode efficiency is under 40 mpg ;-) . If GM would hold back good news on AER, surely they are likely to do the same for extended range performance.

    I’m still holding out for 50+ mpg from cs-mode in reasonable highway driving. AER is likely to suffer from A/C load in the Deep South, but hopefully will still be above 40 miles with a light foot.

    My last commute was around 42 miles … (sniff, sniff) now, I’m suddenly sad …


  28. 28
    LeoK

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:15 pm)

    Overall about what I would expect. Let’s face it, if someone decides they want to get less EV range, they can manage to do it. But I also believe the oposite will prove to be true: those who want to stretch the EV range will be successful. I’ll bet flmark’s 60-mile club will have plenty of members!

    Remember, even in COLD northern climates, the VOLT’s charging system can pre-condition the interior, so the heater won’t have to work so hard. Smart drivers will learn all the subtle ways they can extend their VOLT’s range.


  29. 29
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:19 pm)

    Does anyone know if “50 miles per day” would cover 80%, 85%, 90% or more of typical daily commutes? Did that study ever get posted on this site? What were the actual numbers?


  30. 30
    Tim Hart

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:20 pm)

    Lyle, you would have made a great detective! Thanks for the update. I always believed a 50 mile range was a real possibilty, now it looks like 60 will be the target for the hypermilers. I agree GM needs to give us the range of numbers for the CS mode, the sooner the better. Thats definitely about the last piece of the puzzle.


  31. 31
    User Name

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:32 pm)

    Can’t wait to see what the Hypermilers are able to accomplish with the Volt :)


  32. 32
    Bruce Embry

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:43 pm)

    Hi All,
    The GM filing is located at the following link

    http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1467858/000119312510192195/ds1.htm


  33. 33
    Cab Driver

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (5:44 pm)

    john1701a: No, that’s a misconception. We just let our cars sit out in the parking lot all day, without the benefit of a plug. 9 hours of temperatures well below freezing is quite routine here in Minnesota.Heater use is the penalty, for any vehicle. Whether heat comes from the engine or from the battery, it’s still an efficiency reduction… even if you begin the drive with pre-warming.  (Quote)

    You’re right that heater use is still an efficiency reduction. What is different with preconditioning an EREV or plugin hybrid is that some of that inefficiency is using relatively cheap grid electricity instead of relatively expensive gas.

    I accept your point that a grid plug may be unavailable during the day at work, but if you can plug in overnight you have gotten at least half the potential preconditioning benefit (more than half if the nighttime temperature is lower than the daytime temperature).

    I’m curious, does the Prius’s powerful starter motor and battery give a significant advantage over non-hybrids in cold weather starting performance? It seems like it would.

    While I’m talking to you, let me say that there are lots of us who don’t think that for the Volt to be a good car the Prius must be a bad car (or vice versa). There is no way the industry would be pursuing the current variety of efficient vehicle solutions they are today if Toyota had not shown the cojones to develop the Prius and to get more that a million of them into customer’s hands at a price the customers were willing to pay.


  34. 34
    Sherpa

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (6:00 pm)

    Someone help me understand how anyone can use this EV range unless you know at what avg speed it was obtained?

    Example: 50 miles @ avg 25 mph or 25 miles @ 55 mph

    If I have to drive absurdly low speeds to get the top end of the EV range , why bother?

    Geez GM. Publish real numbers from your millions of real and simulator tests and be done with this on-going tease.


  35. 35
    JCook

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (6:24 pm)

    I think gm is hold out on the CS mode mpg just because they like to see all the debate about it.

    I would say that I think it will be a wide range because of how the Volt works. You can drive it like an anemic Prius or a well powered sedan. I said highway ~38 mpg must I do believe that there will be some that will be able to achieve ~45. I want the # the EPA states because it is standardized testing with repeatable results. I guess I get this from my Metrology background.


  36. 36
    JEC

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (6:54 pm)

    CS mode mpg = 31.4159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097
    4944592307816406286208998628034825342117067 mpg +/- a smidge.

    Look familiar?


  37. 37
    jeremy

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (6:58 pm)

    Is this news? Of course you’re mileage may vary. Just like with a typical ICE car. the harder you run it the worse your mileage will be.


  38. 38
    JCook

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (6:59 pm)

    JEC: CS mode mpg = 31.41592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067 mpg +/- a smidge.Look familiar?  (Quote)

    CS mode mpg not Atomic Clock accuracy!


  39. 39
    JEC

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:01 pm)

    JCook:
    CS mode mpg not Atomic Clock accuracy!  

    Close, but you might need to look AROUND a little more…


  40. 40
    JCook

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:01 pm)

    jeremy: Is this news? Of course you’re mileage may vary. Just like with a typical ICE car. the harder you run it the worse your mileage will be.  (Quote)

    This will be exagerated in the Volt due to the small ICE for vehicle weight and how the ICE is utilized.


  41. 41
    Cab Driver

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:05 pm)

    Bruce Embry: Hi All,The GM filing is located at the following linkhttp://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1467858/000119312510192195/ds1.htm  (Quote)

    Is this a pi in the sky guess?


  42. 42
    Cab Driver

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:06 pm)

    JEC: CS mode mpg = 31.41592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067 mpg +/- a smidge.Look familiar?  (Quote)

    Is this a pi in the sky guess?


  43. 43
    JCook

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:12 pm)

    jeremy: Is this news? Of course you’re mileage may vary. Just like with a typical ICE car. the harder you run it the worse your mileage will be.  (Quote)

    My point in saying that was you can drive it like a Prius or like a well powered sedan. You can’t do this with a civic or yaris they are always anemic to get there high mpg so please don’t be such a smart a$$.


  44. 44
    ziv

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:14 pm)

    Wow. I thought you were joking at first, then it dawned on me that maybe winters aren’t as cold as they were 30 years ago. Because back in the day, I thought MN was colder than the Hi-Line of Montana. Maybe it is just International Falls that is deadly cold. I grew up 50 miles from the Canadian line, and there was nothing to speak of between my house and the North Pole but a barbed wire fence. And it was down by Christmas-time most years. If you didn’t plug your car in on the really cold nights and you left it outdoors without some cover, you were lucky if it would grind, let alone start. And if it did start you had to wait 10 minutes or more for the engine to heat enough so that the heater would work, not to mention that the transmission was noticeably thick and slow for 10-12 minutes as well. If you touched the ash tray or the seat adjuster, the plastic would break off in your hand.
    I figure it will be pretty easy to adjust to plugging in the Volt every night, it will get me more miles AER and I won’t have to go to a gas station more than once every 3 months or so.

    john1701a:
    No, that’s a misconception.We just let our cars sit out in the parking lot all day, without the benefit of a plug.9 hours of temperatures well below freezing is quite routine here in Minnesota.Heater use is the penalty, for any vehicle.Whether heat comes from the engine or from the battery, it’s still an efficiency reduction… even if you begin the drive with pre-warming.  


  45. 45
    JEC

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:16 pm)

    Cab Driver:
    Is this a pi in the sky guess?  

    Baseball, hot dogs, apple pi, and Chevrolet!

    We have a winner!


  46. 46
    Steve

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:23 pm)

    Not surprising news at all. About what I’d expect.


  47. 47
    Dave K.

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:31 pm)

    38 again? 38 battery plus 38 mpg CS under average driving conditions. 30/34 in cold weather. 40/40 in mild conditions. The fuel tank very likely holds 8 gallons. Good numbers.

    =D-Volt


  48. 48
    JCook

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:35 pm)

    Just a point to note when I calculated cost of fuel(gas/electric) total based on my driving habits over 5 years a 38mpg CS mode vs. 50mpg CS mode is only a difference of 200.00 dollars over five years. This shows the significance of the 40 mile AER and the Volts true benefit.


  49. 49
    herm

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:40 pm)

    I proposed the 60/60 Club back in Nov 18, 2009, maybe 60 miles was a bit too low.

    its post #55

    http://gm-volt.com/2009/11/18/chevy-volt-and-battery-program-update/

    “Herm Says

    Nov 18th, 2009 (11:55 am)

    its time to start the Volt 60/60 club.. for those discerning drivers that can achieve 60 miles of all electric range and 60 mpg in the CS mode.. “


  50. 50
    herm

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:46 pm)

    Dont know why my posts are not going thru.. I proposed the 60/60 Club back in Nov 18, 2009, maybe 60 miles was a bit too low.

    its post #55

    “Herm Says

    Nov 18th, 2009 (11:55 am)

    its time to start the Volt 60/60 club.. for those discerning drivers that can achieve 60 miles of all electric range and 60 mpg in the CS mode.. “


  51. 51
    ChuckR

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:46 pm)

    carcus3: “…the generator will go on when the battery reaches about 32% state of charge no matter how it gets there.”_________32% of what?If that’s 32% of the entire 16 kwh’s then it’s probable GM is utilizing more than 8 kwh’s available.  (Quote)

    The normal SOC operating range of the battery is 30%-80% of 16kwh, i.e. 50% of 16kwh = 8kwh.


  52. 52
    LauraM

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:50 pm)

    Jackson: Only thing I can think is that

    a) They’ve decided it’s safe to use more of the pack

    b) They’ve been holding out all along to make maximum impact when the moment is right.

    If it’s “b,” what does this say about the idea that CS-mode mpg is actually much better than many have said?!!

    I’m going with b. And I’m really hoping you’re right about CS-mode.


  53. 53
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (7:53 pm)

    JCook: This shows the significance of the 40 mile AER and the Volts true benefit.

    Say it loud! Say it proud!


  54. 54
    Loboc

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:00 pm)

    JCook: Just a point to note when I calculated cost of fuel(gas/electric) total based on my driving habits over 5 years a 38mpg CS mode vs. 50mpg CS mode is only a difference of 200.00 dollars over five years.This shows the significance of the 40 mile AER and the Volts true benefit.  

    Calculate it again at 50AER :)

    This range of AER is very good news. Previously some were thinking 40AER maximum. (I was one of them.)

    The question now is why not do a BEV? It’s getting very close to where a 120AER BEV is near the cost of the Volt engine and complexity. I suspect that the whole cruze-bev-only-in-korea thing is a giant smoke screen.


  55. 55
    steve

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:08 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  56. 56
    Helmut

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:11 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  57. 57
    Texas

     

    Texas
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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:13 pm)

    Jackson:
    I’m saying that as though I’d like to slap the BS out of more than few posters who consistently say that cs-mode efficiency is under 40 mpg .If GM would hold back good news on AER, surely they are likely to do the same for extended range performance.I’m still holding out for 50+ mpg from cs-mode in reasonable highway driving.AER is likely to suffer from A/C load in the Deep South, but hopefully will still be above 40 miles with a light foot.My last commute was around 42 miles … (sniff, sniff) now, I’m suddenly sad …   

    Does that mean you will slap yourself if you turn out to be wrong? What is your guess for CS, highway @ 70 mph, flat road (averaged), regular gas? Mine is 30 mpg. Go ahead and swing but you better be right!


  58. 58
    MikeD.

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:14 pm)

    steve: So if you want to stay on electric power you are only guaranteed a 12.5 mi radius to get there and back?  

    If where you are going is uphill both ways, is always under 32 degrees, and you are always blasting the heat and the radio, then yes, I guess that may be correct.


  59. 59
    Dan Durston

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:15 pm)

    This is good news. I was expecting 40 miles to be closer to the max. It sounds like 40 miles EV ranges will be seen regularly.


  60. 60
    Sal MBA

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:17 pm)

    Original GM stated that the most the Volt would get in EV mode would be 40 miles. I like that they changed the programming to when it gets down to 32% of the battery pack. When they had it limited to 40 miles, didn’t they say the battery pack would be depleted to around 60%, in order to have a 100k mile life. The way I would drive it, 60 ev miles very possible.
    Now tweak the gas engine to over 50mpg and you got a winner.


  61. 61
    eric

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:17 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  62. 62
    chris

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:18 pm)

    I think this is a great news item. 25-50 is just great considering all things. Most people are going to get plenty of miles on just pure electricity. Living in vermont I would be damn happy to get the worst of 25 miles on pure electric. Even that worse case would be just fine!


  63. 63
    MikeD.

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:24 pm)

    eric: I would guess that the first 35 or so comments are all from GM employees on the Volt team.25-50 mile range is HORRIBLE compared to the Nissan Leaf (150 mile range), Tesla (250 mile range), Smart for 2 electric (60 mile range), RAV 4 EV (100+ range), …should I continue?
    who would pay $40k for a car that will only get a 25mile range!!!! The Volt is a HUGE dissapointment, …yet what do I care, I’ll just buy a Nissan Leaf for a fraction of the cost and way better performance numbers.  

    Nissan suggests that drivers may see a swing of 40 percent in the Leaf’s range. Some may be able to eke out as much as 140 miles, but in other situations, that figure can drop to 60 miles. Kadota himself recently noted the following scenarios:

    * Driving in bumper-to-bumper traffic at 15 mph in cold, wintry weather with the heater on? Expect a range of about 62 miles.
    * Driving around 50 mph with the air conditioning on? Nissan says the range will fall to approximately 70 miles.
    * In normal highway driving (i.e. 60-70 mph), the Leaf can travel approximately 105 miles, provided the climate controls are off.
    * If you leave the heater and A/C off, and keep your speeds to 40 mph or less, the Leaf’s range can jump to roughly 138-140 miles.

    Every EV has the same issues. This is not a surprise.


  64. 64
    carcus3

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:24 pm)

    ChuckR: carcus

    Probably so. That’s what we’ve heard before (usually 85% SOC is mentioned for the top off on the Volt).

    But 50 miles AER would be a very low 160 wh/mile utilizing only 8kwh. Seems that would have to be a steady cruise at under 35 mph with no ancillary (A/C, lights, etc…) to get that.


  65. 65
    Eletruk

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:26 pm)

    Seems like it really should do more than that. I have a 1999 Ford Ranger EV, and I typically get 40 miles of range (I can get more if I drive no stops, flat & level) and I only have about 12KWh of storage left in my battery. So I drive a truck that has no concessions for aerodynamics, and a 10 year old battery with less energy storage, and the Volt can just match that. Meh.
    GM babies the battery too much.


  66. 66
    Rashiid Amul

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:29 pm)

    JEC: CS mode mpg = 31.4159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510582097
    4944592307816406286208998628034825342117067 mpg +/- a smidge.Look familiar?  

    I love pi.


  67. 67
    MikeD.

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:29 pm)

    Eletruk: Seems like it really should do more than that. I have a 1999 Ford Ranger EV, and I typically get 40 miles of range (I can get more if I drive no stops, flat & level) and I only have about 12KWh of storage left in my battery. So I drive a truck that has no concessions for aerodynamics, and a 10 year old battery with less energy storage, and the Volt can just match that. Meh.
    GM babies the battery too much.  

    So what happens when you run out of juice? The volt has less range because it has a gas engine and more weight.


  68. 68
    eric

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:31 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  69. 69
    Loboc

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:32 pm)

    eric: 25-50 mile range is HORRIBLE compared to the Nissan Leaf (150 mile range), Tesla (250 mile range), Smart for 2 electric (60 mile range), RAV 4 EV (100+ range), …should I continue?

    Please do. You can add: Volt = 340 mile range. More than any of these others. Even at over $100k a pure BEV cannot compete.

    It’s like swimming. You only use the top 3 feet. The rest is superfluous. 75% of the US driving public will use less than the top 40 miles AER per charge no matter what the total is.


  70. 70
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:34 pm)

    Jackson:
    I’m saying that as though I’d like to slap the BS out of more than few posters who consistently say that cs-mode efficiency is under 40 mpg .If GM would hold back good news on AER, surely they are likely to do the same for extended range performance.I’m still holding out for 50+ mpg from cs-mode in reasonable highway driving.AER is likely to suffer from A/C load in the Deep South, but hopefully will still be above 40 miles with a light foot.My last commute was around 42 miles … (sniff, sniff) now, I’m suddenly sad …   

    All of the symptoms of menopause are evident in your post….(lol).
    I’m going to steer clear of the CS mode mpg, just because I suspect that GM would toot that horn loudly, rather than say “You’ll never hear it from us”. Although it’d be a fantastic strategic move to let a wonderful CS mileage be “discovered” after the wheels are on the road, frankly, I don’t think that they have the cajones (sorry GM). JMO.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  71. 71
    MetrologyFirst

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:35 pm)

    steve: So if you want to stay on electric power you are only guaranteed a 12.5 mi radius to get there and back?  (Quote)

    What kind of moron reads this news this way? Good Lord……


  72. 72
    micmccon

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:36 pm)

    32.5 mpg in generator mode is what I get when I do the math. GM said 300 miles total range minus 40 AER and you’re left with 260 miles. 8 gallon fuel tank makes 32.5 the mpg number. right? Not too shabby….


  73. 73
    MetrologyFirst

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:37 pm)

    eric: “Nissan suggests that drivers may see a swing of 40 percent in the Leaf’s range. Some may be able to eke out as much as 140 miles, but in other situations, that figure can drop to 60 miles. Kadota himself recently noted the following scenarios:”-and this is still WAY BETTER than the Volt. GM/Volt is claiming 25-50 range, while Nissan/Leaf is claiming 60-150 range…. hmm, not hard to tell which has the better range. AND the LEAF is 100% electric, the Volt is basically a hybrid …just configured slightly different.  (Quote)

    Holy crap, another one.


  74. 74
    Matthew_B

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:37 pm)

    Dave K.: 38 again? 38 battery plus 38 mpg CS under average driving conditions. 30/34 in cold weather. 40/40 in mild conditions. The fuel tank very likely holds 8 gallons. Good numbers.

    Did I miss another announcement? Is 38 MPG the official number?


  75. 75
    Loboc

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:40 pm)

    MetrologyFirst:
    Holy crap, another one.  

    The full moon is out.


  76. 76
    Tagamet

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:43 pm)

    Jackson:
    I’m saying that as though I’d like to slap the BS out of more than few posters who consistently say that cs-mode efficiency is under 40 mpg .If GM would hold back good news on AER, surely they are likely to do the same for extended range performance.I’m still holding out for 50+ mpg from cs-mode in reasonable highway driving.AER is likely to suffer from A/C load in the Deep South, but hopefully will still be above 40 miles with a light foot.My last commute was around 42 miles … (sniff, sniff) now, I’m suddenly sad …   

    Last try to reply to this post, so I’ll abbreviate my 2 previous attempts:

    Although it’d like to believe that GM has this cool plan to let the CS mode mileage be “discovered” once the wheels are on the road (You won’t hear it from US), I don’t think that they have the cojones to pull that off. It’d take foresight and aplomb….. JMO

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  77. 77
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:45 pm)

    VERY Last try to reply to Jackson’s post, so I’ll abbreviate my 3 previous attempts:

    Although it’d like to believe that GM has this cool plan to let the CS mode mileage be “discovered” once the wheels are on the road (You won’t hear it from US), I don’t think that they have the cojones to pull that off. It’d take foresight and aplomb….. JMO

    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /either way I’ll be back tomorrow. :-)
    // Lyle, it looks like the variable is that when I reply and quote a poster, my post doesn’t make it to the site. Typing directly into the reply box does post.


  78. 78
    Voltastic

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:48 pm)

    Dan Durston: This is good news. I was expecting 40 miles to be closer to the max. It sounds like 40 miles EV ranges will be seen regularly.  

    Ya, no kidding. I was figuring 40? ok, 35 :-)


  79. 79
    no comment

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:53 pm)

    i wouldn’t read too much significance into these figures. the purpose of the figures is for use in a financial disclosure document. it isn’t a technical document so there is no attempt to give information about vehicle test conditions, or even the likelihood that someone would get 25 miles versus 50 miles. that isn’t to say that the financial filing statement is worthless, it has its purpose. you typically write a financial disclosure document in such a way as to avoid getting sued by investors.

    since the purpose of mentioning the volt was to focus on gm’s developments in the area of new technologies, the focus was on electric performance, it is not surprising that they didn’t discuss cs mode performance in the filing.

    Sherpa: Someone help me understand how anyone can use this EV range unless you know at what avg speed it was obtained?
    Example:50 miles @ avg 25 mph or25 miles @ 55 mph
    If I have to drive absurdly low speeds to get the top end of the EV range , why bother?Geez GM.Publish real numbers from your millions of real and simulator tests and be done with this on-going tease.  


  80. 80
    Lar Wolf

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (8:58 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  81. 81
    usbseawolf2000

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:02 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  82. 82
    Loboc

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:04 pm)

    Lar Wolf: Totally impractical at the price they want for it

    Go ahead. Ignore reality. Both LEAF and Volt lease for $350/month. There are no other EVs available this year at these prices.


  83. 83
    lostintranslation

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:09 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  84. 84
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:15 pm)

    #77 Tagamet

    I am grateful that you think me worth so much effort ;-) Thanks.

    I just tried to quote you for this post, and it did not ‘take.’ Lyle take note. I will now test manual insertion of the blockquote tag:

    This is a test

    I think we’ll get a much better idea of cs-mode mpg before buyers get wheels on the road; sometime after the EPA gets it’s -uh- stuff together.


  85. 85
    pjkPA

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:17 pm)

    It will be nice in a few months now when reports come in of the real world performance.. I predict over 100mpg very common real world for the VOLT .. yes that’s twice the mpg of any mass produced car made today. And if you decide to take a 100 or mile trip in your VOLT … you CAN without any problem.


  86. 86
    Ross Nicholson

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:18 pm)

    The gas engines are all going to be stripped out of these cars in the future. When they electrify the roads, the 25 mile battery will be all anyone would ever need.


  87. 87
    DonC

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:18 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Does anyone know if “50 miles per day” would cover 80%, 85%, 90% or more of typical daily commutes? Did that study ever get posted on this site? What were the actual numbers? 

    It’s not really daily commute it’s the number of miles. Offhand my recollection is that 100 miles cover 90% of all drivers daily driving and 50 miles cover 85% of their daily driving. These numbers come from the research on the J1711 standard. I haven’t seen them broken out specifically but you can look at the graphs and estimate.


  88. 88
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:18 pm)

    Having discovered the ‘secret’ of how to make green letters appear in the comments, I found earlier this week that nothing I submit using those tags ‘takes.’ I just figured Lyle decided to keep that little goody for himself, but perhaps it is related to the malfunction. I’ll try the tag NOW.

    Did I mention that I also used to test software (not html, though)?

    Edit: OK, that works. Don’t know what happened to that, earlier.


  89. 89
    DonC

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:21 pm)

    Jackson: Having discovered the ’secret’ of how to make green letter appear in comments, I found that nothing I submit using those tags ‘takes.’

    Great trick. All your comments will now instantly be “green”. Ha ha nice trick!


  90. 90
    pjkPA

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:23 pm)

    Most commutes in the area I live in are less than 12 miles each way… that’s 24 miles total commute for most drivers near a large city. AND when you do want to go on a longer trip you CAN without a problem.


  91. 91
    Jackson

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:23 pm)

    Ross Nicholson: The gas engines are all going to be stripped out of these cars in the future.When they electrify the roads, the 25 mile battery will be all anyone would ever need.  

    Do tell. What method will be used? Will highways be like slot-car tracks; or are you counting on induction? How long will it take to reach a saturation high enough to make the system a viable option for the average driver? How much will it cost, do you reckon?

    Here’s a hint: battery costs are likely to drop as their capabilities improve; the costs of building a high-tech ‘power road’ are likely to remain high during the half-century or so it will take to upgrade 90% of the nation’s highways.


  92. 92
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:24 pm)

    Jackson:
    Do tell.What method will be used?Will highways be like slot-car tracks; or are you counting on induction?How long will it take to reach a saturation high enough to make the system a viable option for the average driver?How much will it cost, do you reckon?  

    Lyle: I got this to post by manually stripping out the “href = #comment-11223344″ part from the “a” tag, and keeping everything else.

    EDIT: Oh, snap. I hit “quote” instead of “edit” again. If ditching the href had anything to do with the cost of eggs, my quote above wouldn’t have ‘taken’ …


  93. 93
    Loboc

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:25 pm)

    Jackson: Having discovered the ’secret’ of how to make green letter appear in comments, I found that nothing I submit using those tags ‘takes.’I figured Lyle decided to keep that little goody for himself, but perhaps it is related to the malfunction.I’ll try the tag NOW.Did I mention that I also used to test software (not html, though).  

    I think it has something to do with the thread switch mid-stream. (Maybe a cache problem?) I switched to my home computer and the site is working fine now.


  94. 94
    DonC

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:28 pm)

    Cab Driver: I would expect that the AER during a typical Minnesota winter commute would be very different depending on whether you left the Volt plugged in overnight and told it to “condition” the battery temperature and the cabin temperature before departure using grid electricity.

    True to an extent but keep in mind that cold air is heavy air, cold roads are sticky roads, and cold parts are high friction parts. A lot of this won’t be directly related to needing to heat the cabin though that will be a problem.


  95. 95
    Loboc

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:31 pm)

    Ross Nicholson: When they electrify the roads

    Lol. I knew it . Full moon.


  96. 96
    Jackson

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:32 pm)

    DonC: Great trick. All your comments will now instantly be “green”. Ha ha nice trick!

    Faith and begorrah!!! Perhaps even flmark will forgive me!!!


  97. 97
    Loboc

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:36 pm)

    Jackson: Will highways be like slot-car tracks

    Well that’d certainly cut down on illegal immigrants when they hit the third rail!

    /sorry. getting late and the loonies are out.


  98. 98
    Jackson

     

    Jackson
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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:37 pm)

  99. 99
    Jackson

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    Jackson
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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:42 pm)

    Loboc:
    Lol. I knew it . Full moon.  

    ix5v9z.png

    IT IS INDEED!!!


  100. 100
    Loboc

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:42 pm)

    Jackson:
    Faith and begorrah!!!Perhaps even flmark will forgive me!!!  

    Now make the background green with black letters. :)


  101. 101
    Red HHR

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:46 pm)

  102. 102
    Jackson

     

    Jackson
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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:49 pm)

    Loboc says:
    Now make the background green with black letters. :)

    Wattaya tryin’ ta do? Kill me?!! ;-)


  103. 103
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (9:53 pm)

    Red HHR: Miles and miles on electricity, way cool!  

    uh oh, secret’s out! guess I’m in the doghouse with Lyle, now. again.

    /fun with “page source”

    //how do you think I found it?

    ///slashies (just for statik, if he’s out there)


  104. 104
    Loboc

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (10:00 pm)

    In doghouse also:

    I love when dev leaves comments laying around.

    ” removed stray closing div CSchlegel; 2010-02-13 apparently not so stray!”


  105. 105
    Doug Korthof

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (10:08 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  106. 106
    Charlie

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (10:18 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  107. 107
    Ug

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (10:56 pm)

    Doug Korthof: Junk.The Toyota RAV4-EV has over 100 miles all-electric range with 30 kWh, less than twice the VOLT-hoax.Besides, the Toyota RAV4-EV uses NiMH, which last more than 100,000 miles.GM is a hoax, and so is the VOLT-hoax.

    Doug, get some mental help, seriously.


  108. 108
    lostintranslation

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (11:01 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  109. 109
    Tagamet

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (11:27 pm)

    Hi, Mr. President,
    I’m posting here so I don’t have to do it thrice. Truth be told I’m only posting this because I so rarely get to use the word “thrice” (g).
    Seriously, you’re worth *all* the effort, even at the glacial pace at which I type (X3).

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  110. 110
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (11:31 pm)

    Loboc:
    I think it has something to do with the thread switch mid-stream. (Maybe a cache problem?) I switched to my home computer and the site is working fine now.  

    The site is fine, but I’m still screwed up… (lol)

    Night,
    Tagamet


  111. 111
    Matthew B

     

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (11:31 pm)

    If you use href codes to turn you text green and then get enough up votes, your text will disappear because it matches the background.


  112. 112
    Tagamet

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (11:41 pm)

    LEVI_1081.jpg


  113. 113
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (11:43 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: I love pi.  

    I love the holiday season… Plenty of pi all around!
    Pumpkin
    Apple
    Pecan
    Chocolate Cream
    Mmmmmmmm. Mmmmm.


  114. 114
    PAC-MAN

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (11:54 pm)

    I flew from south florida to Las Vegas (Barrett-Jackson) to see the Volt. Yes, I got a chance to sit in it, and talk to the PR folks at the “ride & drive”. No, I couldn’t drive it!! This would have been a great opportunity for “car people” to test drive the next revolution of the automobile. Unfortunately we were very disappointed. Maybe the Chevy folks will wake up soon and realize they are missing the boat on getting the Volt into the hands of people that can spread the word about this new wave of automotive powertrains.
    Happy Motoring
    PAC-MAN


  115. 115
    Mike Casey

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    Sep 23rd, 2010 (11:58 pm)

    I used to blog here but after finding out the cost of the Volt and it only got 40 miles to a charge, I’ve decided I couldn’t wait any longer so I bought a new Prius and I love it. If some of you rember I started the NO PLUG NO SALE


  116. 116
    ed

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (1:52 am)

    OUTSTANDING


  117. 117
    M Lederer

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:28 am)

    That’s BS. Tell us the range based on the EPA test used to estimate MPG for petro autos. Or give us more details such as steady state range a 35 mph and 45 mph, 55 mph, 65 mph flat, no wind, no A/C no heat. Also, what’s the EPA MPG when the batteries run out (on average). I want to know what the cost is to drive from LA to San Francisco.


  118. 118
    Dan Durston

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:30 am)

    Mike Casey: I started the NO PLUG NO SALE…I bought a new Prius

    I think you forfeit the right to lead the ‘No plus, No sale’ movement when you go out and buy a pure gasoline powered car.


  119. 119
    Michael Knight, Phd

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (5:44 am)

    GM, Ford, & Chrysler cannot continue to ‘do business as usual’. The word has too many automakers and we ARE running out of petroleum (despite our best efforts to pretend otherwise).

    Quickly, they need to transition to the 6.7 BILLION people reason$ to build solar and wind energy producing products. They have the needed infrastructure, supply stream, factory workers, sales facilities, and mechanics to install. This must be done on a ‘grand scale’ on order for America (and the world) to become free of fossil fuel dependency and become a sustainable economy. The entire US economy would benefit greatly.
    Will America ever make the right choices, or will we again ‘lose’ to China, India, OPEC, etc…


  120. 120
    RB

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:23 am)

    66 Rashiid Amul:
    I love pi.  

    It goes best with e 2.71828182845904523536, which also isl ‘natural.’ :)


  121. 121
    herm

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:30 am)

    M Lederer: That’s BS.Tell us the range based on the EPA test used to estimate MPG for petro autos. Or give us more details such as steady state range a 35 mph and 45 mph, 55 mph, 65 mph flat, no wind, no A/C no heat. Also, what’s the EPA MPG when the batteries run out (on average). I want to know what the cost is to drive from LA to San Francisco.

    They released that a long time ago, the Volt could complete 6 of the 11.1 mile long EPA city cycles, for a range of 66.6 miles, note that test does not use air conditioning.


  122. 122
    RB

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:31 am)

    80 Lar Wolf: GM will kill the electric car again with the Volt and will go bankrupt. There fallacy is pricing a vehicle that’s supposed to be an economy car above luxury car prices. Few in this market can afford $41,500 or so and that’s before dealer prep, shipping, taxes, dealer mark up, blah blah bl

    .
    It is a concern, and it is made more so because gm chose to make the Volt look so much like the Cruze, so visually one concludes that Volt is a variant economy car with a high price.

    The favorable side is that the Volt itself is a very nice car, more nearly a luxury sport sedan than an economy anything. Taken by itself, it has performance and appearance as well as the benefits (and some downsides) of electric drive. So if Volt can shake off its siblings, I think it can do well.


  123. 123
    JeremyK

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:38 am)

    Adam: I flew from Wyoming to Las Vegas, to attend the Barrett Jackson Auto Auction.Thus fas, it’s been a good day, seen some raeally cool cars, and had had fun.GM and Ford have this ride and Drive program, is short, it’s all of the new cars, which is cool.We got to see the new convertanle Camaro, the Regal, etc….Including 2 Volts….Remember, this is a Ride and Drive program, I got to drive the new Grand Sport Corvette, it far exceeds the price of the Volt, and I was there for 3+ hours, and only 1 person got to drive it!There was a LOT of people asking to drive it, but the people working it refuse to let folks drive it!Great PR by GM, lets bring the car for show and tell, we have the car, but you can’t drive it!It’s disgusting gesture on GM’s part, why won’t they let the public drive it?I couldn’t get an answer from the people working it, but what do they have to hide?Like I said earlier, I flew 1000+ miles to see the new cars, and I knew GM was going to bring the Volt, talk about a major disappointment.They will let us sit in them though……Wow.  

    These “show cars” are not production level vehicles and are not as refined as GM would like. GM would be opening themselves up to undo criticism by letting the public drive a car that is not production intent.


  124. 124
    Tom M

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:49 am)

    Jackson:
    Lyle:I got this to post by manually stripping out the “href = #comment-11223344″ part from the “a” tag, and keeping everything else.EDIT: Oh, snap.I hit “quote” instead of “edit” again.If ditching the href had anything to do with the cost of eggs, my quote above wouldn’t have ‘taken’ …  

    Nice find Prez


  125. 125
    JeremyK

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:54 am)

    On a lighter note…
    I saw a red Volt on Monday while driving through Pontiac, MI. It had a manufacturer plate on it. My brother saw a silver Volt in Ann Arbor, MI yesterday. I also assume it was part of GM’s “captured test fleet”. Some of these early Volts are now in the hands of upper management. We’re getting close! :)


  126. 126
    Loboc

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:58 am)

  127. 127
    koz

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:08 am)

    Expect a comparable @30-60 mpg range for CS mode if GM ever gets around to talking about it.


  128. 128
    Fluke

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:15 am)

    lostintranslation: Jackson,
    Perfect response..and bravo on the link…. Way to make Andrew proud, as for truth in advertisement…most junk mail gives you the option to unsubscribe but GM spam is so sacred of losing audience other than their own engineers they don’t offer such an options…Example:
    =============================================================Dear :GM announces real world EV range of the Chevy Volt:http://veh.cl/swGM-Volt
    =============================================================
    Since you are so talented at HTML maybe you bravely offer me a link to the unsubscribe page because apparently GM doesn’t have the guts to offer such an out in it’s own “Advertisements”!So embarrassing!
    OneSmallStepForMan  

    Actually, this email is from the GM-Volt site, not GM or Chevy. I personally appreciate these messages that Lyle sends out on breaking news from time to time.

    If they bother you, then you need to edit your forum profile using the USER CP menu/edit options to uncheck “Receive Email from Administrator”.


  129. 129
    Van

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:17 am)

    If the design goal was “up to 40″ and now they say 25-50, it looks like the 50 is about 10 miles of very optimistic hoopla. Using the same method, could not the 25 reflect about 10 miles of very pessimistic hoopla? So 35-40, or 37 miles AER seems reinforced.


  130. 130
    Jimza Skeptic

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:35 am)

    Mike Casey: I used to blog here but after finding out the cost of the Volt and it only got 40 miles to a charge, I’ve decided I couldn’t wait any longer so I bought a new Prius and I love it.If some of you rember I started the NO PLUG NO SALE  

    Well if you started NO PLUG / NO SALE, then why did you buy a Prius? There are so many other options like Leaf (year end), MiEV early next year, Smart, etc. And even your beloved Prius will have a Plug down the road. This is an either ALL IN or FOLD game we are playing. Looks like you folded like a lawn chair.


  131. 131
    Dave K.

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:02 am)

    Matthew_B: Did I miss another announcement? Is 38 MPG the official number?

    “Official number”? I believe the official MPG number will be provided by the EPA. To find out where 38 came from. Look back over the last 6 months of MPG posts here at gm volt dot com. People that use pure electric power flow calculation come up with low 30’3. Those that use direct comparison to internal combustion systems currently in use get 37-40. Those that focus on the advanced transmission, aero, regen, and software are stating 50.

    =D-Volt


  132. 132
    usbseawolf2000

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:16 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Does anyone know if “50 miles per day” would cover 80%, 85%, 90% or more of typical daily commutes? Did that study ever get posted on this site? What were the actual numbers?  

    See below for the link to the study. 50 miles range would cover 85% of the commutes. 25 miles range should cover about 60%.

    http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html


  133. 133
    john1701a

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:21 am)

    (click to show comment)


  134. 134
    Anthroprogenic Man

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:25 am)

    (click to show comment)


  135. 135
    JCook

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:27 am)

    Dave K.: “Official number”? I believe the official MPG number will be provided by the EPA. To find out where 38 came from. Look back over the last 6 months of MPG posts here at gm volt dot com. People that use pure electric power flow calculation come up with low 30′3. Those that use direct comparison to internal combustion systems currently in use get 37-40. Those that focus on the advanced transmission, aero, regen, and software are stating 50.=D-Volt  (Quote)

    Those that are choosing to ignore some of the losses and act like removing the tranny takes away any loss and just add for regen and software(it’s only slightly more aero than the cruze) get 50. They also forget the added weight.


  136. 136
    Dave K.

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:31 am)

    Dave K.: the official MPG number will be provided by the EPA.

    One thing we all can agree on is the official EPA MPG for the Volt is triple figures. When 40 miles of driving uses no gasoline what is the MPG?

    This is good news. But, maybe even better, the Volt operates with full time electric drive to the wheels. Very good acceleration. Smooth quiet comfortable driving experience included. Nav, leather, back up camera, 17″ aluminum wheels, OnStar, Bose 6 speaker system w/ 30GB storage, USB w/ 120V outlets (3), Bluetooth, twin LCD’s. Nothing else like it on the road.

    Would you prefer a used BMW or Audi at 20mpg?

    =D-Volt


  137. 137
    JeremyK

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:33 am)

    Van: If the design goal was “up to 40″ and now they say 25-50, it looks like the 50 is about 10 miles of very optimistic hoopla.Using the same method, could not the 25 reflect about 10 miles of very pessimistic hoopla?So 35-40, or 37 miles AER seems reinforced.  

    I disagree. The statement uses the words “typical range”. That means the AVERAGE driver can expect 25-50 mile range. The meaning of the word “typical” is pretty obvious, so I don’t think it is fair to say that a 50 mile range is overly optimistic. As stated, the range will be determined by the terrain, driving technique, temperature and battery age.

    A person, driving under the right conditions could, in theory, get over 100 miles per charge. It’s just basic math. Here’s an example for you.

    If you were to cruise at a steady state speed of 20 mph, the rolling resistance and aero drag would only be about 1.7 kW….so at 20 mph the car is only using 0.085 kWh/mile. Assuming 8 kWh of battery capacity, the Volt could go 94 miles on a single charge (under those very specific conditions). At a cruising speed of 50 mph, the range would be exactly 50 miles.

    As you can see, the numbers can be whatever you want them to be. So yes, we could create a 90+ hyper-miler club, but people in that club would also be in the “most annoying drivers on the road” club.

    Another important thing to remember is that an electric motor is much more efficient than a gasoline engine during aggressive acceleration. The big range “hit” will come from driving fast (sustained high speed) rather than accelerating quickly.


  138. 138
    FIGURE OUTER GUY

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:37 am)

    Tagamet @ 77

    VERY Last try to reply to Jackson’s post, so I’ll abbreviate my 3 previous attempts:
    Although it’d like to believe that GM has this cool plan to let the CS mode mileage be “discovered” once the wheels are on the road (You won’t hear it from US), I don’t think that they have the cojones to pull that off. It’d take foresight and aplomb….. JMO
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    —————————————————————————
    Tag, You could just cut and paste like this, and then reply.


  139. 139
    maharguitar

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:41 am)

    Has GM discovered The Ultimate Question?

    “What is the all electric range of the Chevy Volt and what is the gas mileage of the Chevy Volt in charge sustaining mode?” Answer: 42


  140. 140
    joe pah

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:47 am)

    (click to show comment)


  141. 141
    Tall Pete

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:53 am)

    Helmut: Did I miss something?

    Indeed you did.


  142. 142
    Tall Pete

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:55 am)

    steve: So if you want to stay on electric power …

    Buy yourself a pure electric car, that’s all. Then you can worry about the radius of distance you can reach.


  143. 143
    Loboc

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:01 am)

    JeremyK: Volt could go 94 miles on a single charge (under those very specific conditions).

    I commute around DFW airport. My average speed is between 35 and 40mph even though most of the roads I use have a speed limit of 60. Volt and other electric cars are in their sweet spot for these stop-and-go-snails-pace conditions.

    Unless the A/C unit uses gobs of power, I should easily and regularly achieve the 60-mile club goal. (Herm or flmark or whoever is running it.)

    Just kick it in ‘L’ and drive!


  144. 144
    Grady C

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:06 am)

    JCook: Just a point to note when I calculated cost of fuel(gas/electric) total based on my driving habits over 5 years a 38mpg CS mode vs. 50mpg CS mode is only a difference of 200.00 dollars over five years.This shows the significance of the 40 mile AER and the Volts true benefit.  

    Whether its CS or battery, we talk about 40 as some sort of magic number here… over 40 being great and under forty being absolutely awful. JCook is much closer to the reality. The difference between 38mpg and 50mpg might sound like a lot to the uninformed consumer, but it’s really not that much unless you drive a lot. Of course, the EV mode will provide a savings of about $3/day that the car is driven to avoid using the first gallon of gas. Used as a marketing tool (for or against the Volt), that will be the sales pitch. Is is worth the cost of a gallon of gas per day when the car is driven to own a Volt vs a Cruise at, what, $15k less? Or a Lincoln Hybrid at roughly the same cost?


  145. 145
    nuclearboy

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:09 am)

    john1701a: Why would they choose not to also compete in the no-plug market ?

    Because they don’t have to. They have a plug.


  146. 146
    nuclearboy

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:13 am)

    The article is good news. They were shooting for 40 miles electric. It could have been that they were getting 25-40 miles per electric charge and that would satisfy the “up to 40″ claim but in reality most people would not hit 40.

    Instead, they are really getting up to 50 miles per charge and this makes the 40 mile per charge number something that will be attainable by most people.

    Good Job GM. This is a case of over-delivering.


  147. 147
    Rashiid Amul

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:17 am)

    lostintranslation: Dear :

    GM announces real world EV range of the Chevy Volt:

    http://veh.cl/sw

    GM-Volt

    I got this also. I was initially cocerned that it is not legitimately from Lyle.
    I didn’t click on it and deleted it. The URL raised a red flag for me.
    It went into my spam folder, which doesn’t happen when Lyle sends me stuff.
    This is another reason why I think it is not legit.
    Anyone brave enough to click the link? The domain is from Chile.


  148. 148
    JeremyK

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:22 am)

    Rashiid Amul:
    I got this also.I was initially cocerned that it is not legitimately from Lyle.
    I didn’t click on it and deleted it.The URL raised a red flag for me.
    I went into my spam folder, which doesn’t happen when Lyle sends me stuff.
    This is another reason why I think it is not legit.
    Anyone brave enough to click the link?The domain is from Chile.  

    The link was legit.


  149. 149
    john1701a

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:26 am)

    (click to show comment)


  150. 150
    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:38 am)

    Tagamet:   
    LEVI_1081.jpg

    CAPTION:
    Skeptical cat is skeptical.


  151. 151
    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:40 am)

    Sherpa: Someone help me understand how anyone can use this EV range unless you know at what avg speed it was obtained?

    Simple: Once you know what your range will be for the conditions under which you drive, you can use it to plan all AER trips. Although that isn’t really that important for the Volt since it can use gasoline to go further while the Nissan Leaf and other all electric EVs can’t.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  152. 152
    EricLG

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:41 am)

    (click to show comment)


  153. 153
    LandKurt

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:45 am)

    john1701a:
    There’s a sizeable chunk of market who doesn’t want to spend that much and/or simply doesn’t have an outlet available.

    If you don’t have an outlet available then don’t buy a plug-in car. Why pay for the additional capability if you have no way to use it?


  154. 154
    Dave K.

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:56 am)

    There is a brand new Cadillac CTS coupe on my street. Black inside and out. Looks better in person than in photos. Very good job on this one GM.

    =D-Volt

    cad%20cts%203.jpg

    An owner review.

    CTS%20owner%20review.jpg


  155. 155
    flmark

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:57 am)

    Just had a thought on CS. This figure won’t just vary, it’s going to VARY! The very best AVERAGE CS mpg will be on extended road trips which present no ability to recharge. The very worst AVERAGE CS mpg will be when you reach JUST beyond AER (think cold running ICE nearly EVERY time it’s run- and what mpg rating out there is ONLY based on a cold running engine?) Think about it. I think many of us are waiting to HEAR a number corresponding to my first scenario (so we can have a feel for that extended road trip). However, I suspect that if we ever sat down& did the math for ALL of our miles & gallons, we would probably find that the second scenario drops the mpg significantly, as a much larger proportion of miles are run with a cold ICE than we are used to considering. I am now starting to realize why the lack of announced CS mpg. That is, unless GM also qualifies the announcement with “The expected approximate number, on extended road trips, is…” Since I doubt such a qualification is coming, I expect no OFFICIAL commitment to a CS figure.


  156. 156
    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    lostintranslation

    Can I remind you of this post next year when the testimonials from Volt owners come in showing how wrong you are.? It’s clear you don’t grasp how Volt owners will be using far less gasoline by driving the Volt. When you look at the whole vehicle; compare it to the Leaf and Prius, you will see that the Volt offers far more in amenities than the other vehicles: That’s is why the Volt is higher priced. Argue as you may but the Prius and Leaf are not in the same class as the Volt.

    Oh, and by the way, that used Prius will be worth far less as a result of much superior technology in true EVs. Sorry but the truth hurts.

    Happy trails to you ’til me meet again.


  157. 157
    crew

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    MikeD.:
    Nissan suggests that drivers may see a swing of 40 percent in the Leaf’s range. Some may be able to eke out as much as 140 miles, but in other situations, that figure can drop to 60 miles. Kadota himself recently noted the following scenarios:* Driving in bumper-to-bumper traffic at 15 mph in cold, wintry weather with the heater on? Expect a range of about 62 miles.
    * Driving around 50 mph with the air conditioning on? Nissan says the range will fall to approximately 70 miles.
    * In normal highway driving (i.e. 60-70 mph), the Leaf can travel approximately 105 miles, provided the climate controls are off.
    * If you leave the heater and A/C off, and keep your speeds to 40 mph or less, the Leaf’s range can jump to roughly 138-140 miles.Every EV has the same issues.This is not a surprise.

    You nailed it Mike!
    From what I remember “extreme” cold within GM testing is subzero F not C.

    Let the Volt critics try taking out a Leaf on a nice uphill climb with a couple of buddies that want to go snowboarding! Can they say “let’s take the Volt”? Or would they rather just go play some backgammon?

    ps. Oh! and by the way, I know a Prius needs to be garaged just to be able to start in these temps.


  158. 158
    Muhammad

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:07 am)

    Jackson: Only thing I can think is thata) They’ve decided it’s safe to use more of the packb) They’ve been holding out all along to make maximum impact when the moment is right.If it’s “b,” what does this say about the idea that CS-mode mpg is actually much better than many have said?!!  

    I got the chance once to speak to a Volt battery engineer. They are still using the same percentage of the battery (around 50%). But it won’t charge up fully. So for example, it would operate in the range of 80%-30%.

    All of this is to save the life of the battery — both fully charging and discharging hurt the life.


  159. 159
    Loboc

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:12 am)

    EricLG: 30 +/- 5 is much more likely typical real world

    How is your guess any more viable than a guess of 40. or 45. or 50. YMMV has a much higher usage swing than a gasoline car.

    Just picking something in the low-end of middle is probably not ‘typical’. I’d be willing to bet that Car&Driver could get the AER down to 16 if they tried a little. Hypermiler guys will get way above 60.

    Once we get some reports on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ along with the EPA estimates, then we will have a good idea what ‘typical’ is. Take a look at the current mpg champ, Prius. People are reporting anywhere from 35 to 60mpg.

    /I wonder what fueleconomy.gov will do with dual-fuel vehicles? Right now they have two ratings for an E85 vehicle, but, that’s not really dual-fuel. Tesla is not listed.


  160. 160
    JohnK

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:20 am)

    JEC: CS mode mpg = 31.41592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067 mpg +/- a smidge.Look familiar?  (Quote)

    A piece of pie. Actually 10 pies. Enjoy, but it won’t make you fat.


  161. 161
    Loboc

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:28 am)

    flmark: I expect no OFFICIAL commitment to a CS figure.

    GM has zero motivation (well a little because of this crap) to release any more MPG figures for Volt. They will stick on the EPA label and forgettaboutit.

    The EPA label (new one or old one?) will have something like 180mpg city, 60mpg highway and 126mpg combined. These will be calculated using the dyno EPA cycles when they are finalized and then they’ll throw in a fudge-factor based on GM’s real-world data.

    Even the EPA swags the data. They ‘adjust’ the numbers to be more real-world after the dyno testing is done. In the case of Prius, they were way off initially.


  162. 162
    crew

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:30 am)

    EricLG:
    Yeahh, all the doofuses who whined and screamed when I and a few others pointed out that 30 +/- 5 is much more likely typical real world.The only thing this car has over-achieved on compared to the GM hype is the price. Kill the POS now, before GM demands even more taxpayer money.

    What’s so hard to calculate? I have had quite a bit of respect for the professionalism of the engineering department members that have put themselves on the line to give us Volt info.
    That professionalism has been matched very well by the regular proVolt contributors of this site.
    We have questioned quite a few of the ideas of how the Volt executes it’s duties with reason and civil open dialogue. There are quite a few drawbacks to buying a new tech GM car built in the first year of production, but no question about it, we know what we are buying.

    Pulling random figures based on personal opinion is good for you and fortifies your disillusionment with GM, just don’t expect us to give you much credibility for the opinion. Putting personal biases aside is difficult for quite a few people that have been burned by GM cars in the past. It would be a lot to expect otherwise.

    Personally, I have put prognostications on the side since the Volt is just a few weeks away from hitting the road. I do have the idea that CS mileage, EV range, Volt and Cruze successes are closely relate to the GM IPO. Go figure that out too.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:33 am)

    FIGURE OUTER GUY: Tagamet @ 77
    VERY Last try to reply to Jackson’s post, so I’ll abbreviate my 3 previous attempts:
    Although it’d like to believe that GM has this cool plan to let the CS mode mileage be “discovered” once the wheels are on the road (You won’t hear it from US), I don’t think that they have the cojones to pull that off. It’d take foresight and aplomb….. JMO
    Be well,
    Tagamet
    —————————————————————————
    Tag, You could just cut and paste like this, and then reply.  

    Thanks for the tip. Sometimes frustration leads me to absolutely miss the workaround. At least the last try, I copied MY text before hitting the SEND button (lol).

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Loboc

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:35 am)

    Loboc: /I wonder what fueleconomy.gov will do with dual-fuel vehicles? Right now they have two ratings for an E85 vehicle, but, that’s not really dual-fuel. Tesla is not listed.

    Well my bad. The site does list an EV. The 2000 Nissan Altra EV.

    117 city
    130 hwy
    123 combined.


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    Schmeltz

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:40 am)

    Late to getting here today but…

    I am really satisfied with the AER numbers the Volt will achieve. I’m happy to see that 40 miles AER is not an impossible to achieve number that almost no one can attain. 50 miles on the top end and 25 miles on the bottom end are acceptable in my eyes.

    WELL DONE GM!


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    Russ

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:45 am)

    So do you think anyone will be able to Jailbreak the Volt to allow it to run on all electric power longer? Instead of the generator kicking on when the battery reaches about 32% state of charge what if you could change the setting so that the batter would go down to say 15% charge. You should be able to get another 10 miles of electric range. I would so do it. Who cares if it voids the warranty. In 2 years batteries will be cheaper and better anyway. What do you think?


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    JeremyK

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:07 am)

    Russ: So do you think anyone will be able to Jailbreak the Volt to allow it to run on all electric power longer?Instead of the generator kicking on when the battery reaches about 32% state of charge what if you could change the setting so that the batter would go down to say 15% charge.You should be able to get another 10 miles of electric range.I would so do it.Who cares if it voids the warranty.In 2 years batteries will be cheaper and better anyway.What do you think?  

    No offense, but I kinda “think” your an idiot. YOU should care about voiding the warranty because replacing that pack will not be cheap whether it’s in 1 year or 5 years. Let’s say you jailbreak the Volt to get an extra 10 EV miles per day….so about 300 miles per year of extra EV range. You might save $30/yr in gasoline. Is that really worth potentially decreasing the overall useful life of your pack, voiding the warranty and/or worse yet killing off a few of the cells and destroying the pack?

    The pack is made up of hundreds of cells. When you go down to 30% state of charge, there will be some cells in the pack that are greater than 30% SOC and some that are less. If you go down to 20% SOC, it’s conceivable that some of the cells may be as low as 10% SOC simply due to variations in manufacturing, cell chemistry, etc. If you take those cells down to 10% SOC enough…they fail. Assuming the battery management system can compensate, the rest of your cells now have to work harder and the performance of the vehicle will be reduced….as well as the life of the remaining cells.


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    herm

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:11 am)

    Russ: So do you think anyone will be able to Jailbreak the Volt to allow it to run on all electric power longer? Instead of the generator kicking on when the battery reaches about 32% state of charge what if you could change the setting so that the batter would go down to say 15% charge. You should be able to get another 10 miles of electric range. I would so do it. Who cares if it voids the warranty. In 2 years batteries will be cheaper and better anyway. What do you think?  

    I think it will happen, and its really bad news for those that will buy used Volts and for GM if they have to honor the warranty. What will it do to the resale value if you cant verify the Volt you are buying has not been tampered with?

    Things you can do with Volt software:

    1. increase the DOD to 95%
    2. increase the high temp limit of the battery, hotter battery produces more power (not energy)
    3. decrease liquid cooling in the battery, to achieve hotter batteries
    3. increase temperature and power limits of the inverters and motors
    4. enable direct coupling of engine to the wheels (over at the eng forum we suspect this feature is software enabled).
    5. bypass traction control

    All these things will severely affect the battery life in the hands of an irresponsible person.


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    Streetlight

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:18 am)

    These numbers coincide well with LEAF. Recall in June Forbes reported LEAF EV range per charge from 138 miles to 47 miles. That’s roughly a best range of 20% over nominal (120%) and a worst case range of roughly 50% of nominal. (Where nominal EV range = 100 miles)

    Now GM saying … where VOLT nominal range = 40 miles … A best range of 50 miles or 20% over nominal (120%) and 25 miles or a worse case of 50%. See the point! Battery performance equates.

    What distinguishes VOLT from its ‘pure EV’ (re LEAF) competition is the advantage of mountain mode. Go anywhere. No risk. As a full size car that’s really drawn raves from autoworld critics.


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    carcus3

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:19 am)

    2008 testing on the Tesla Roadster showed an efficiency of about 215wh/mile on the epa combined cycle. The Roadster will in all likelyhood have less aerodynamic drag than the Volt and could weigh 1,000+ lbs less.

    8 kwh’s at 215wh/mile would be 37.2 miles AER.

    The Volt may be using 2 electric motors in tandem for increased efficiency, but I don’t think there’s anyway that will make up for the weight.


  171. 171
    Tagamet

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:20 am)

    Russ: So do you think anyone will be able to Jailbreak the Volt to allow it to run on all electric power longer?Instead of the generator kicking on when the battery reaches about 32% state of charge what if you could change the setting so that the batter would go down to say 15% charge.You should be able to get another 10 miles of electric range.I would so do it.Who cares if it voids the warranty.In 2 years batteries will be cheaper and better anyway.What do you think?  

    It’s pretty hard to not take offense when someone calls you an idiot (lol). Seriously, it’s an interesting thought experiment, but I’d think it very unwise to mess with the software of a finely tuned, *first generation* of this cutting edge tech. I might consider doing what you mentioned to a Gen I vehicle *after* Gen II or III is out (and the Gen I Volt is now well-used) JMO.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    greenWin

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:35 am)

    I guess this product (Volt Rev 1) is pretty well out the door if they are using Safe Harbor language to avoid possible SEC complaints about disclosure. This restatement of potential mileage is the work of GM IPO lawyers – nothing else.


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    JeremyK

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:44 am)

    Tagamet:
    It’s pretty hard to not take offense when someone calls you an idiot (lol). Seriously, it’s an interesting thought experiment, but I’d think it very unwise to mess with the software of a finely tuned, *first generation* of this cutting edge tech. I might consider doing what you mentioned to a Gen I vehicle *after* Gen II or III is out (and the Gen I Volt is now well-used) JMO.Be well,
    Tagamet  

    My comment was a little tongue-in-cheek, but seriously…this sounds like a bad idea.
    Not being a BEV, there would never be reason that I could see where you’d have to force a few extra EV miles out of the pack. With a BEV…maybe, hence the term range anxiety. To me, this is analogous to the people that drive an extra 10 miles to save $0.02 per gallon of gas. The cost/benefit is just not there.

    I do like the idea of being able to couple the engine to the wheels, bypass traction control, and increase power to the motor (assuming the inverter can handle it).
    I don’t think I’d want to change the power or temp limits of the inverter, however.


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    john1701a

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:46 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    john1701a

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:58 am)

    crew: ps. Oh! and by the way, I know a Prius needs to be garaged just to be able to start in these temps.

    Since most people are aware that’s not the case, what was the purpose of that comment?

    Every winter I end up leaving the Prius out all day in temperatures below 0°F. Heck, we sometimes go over a whole week where the daytime high stays in the negatives.

    The engine fires up bettter than a traditional vehicle. The engine itself is specially adapted for easier starting and there’s a dramatically bigger starter & battery available than in traditional vehicles. No garage needed.


  176. 176
    Tagamet

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (12:14 pm)

    JeremyK: My comment was a little tongue-in-cheek, but seriously…this sounds like a bad idea.
    Not being a BEV, there would never be reason that I could see where you’d have to force a few extra EV miles out of the pack. With a BEV…maybe, hence the term range anxiety. To me, this is analogous to the people that drive an extra 10 miles to save $0.02 per gallon of gas. The cost/benefit is just not there.

    Yeah, I knew that’s what you were doing, but it doesn’t take much to hurt feelings, or start a “Flame war”. I do agree about the “no tinkering” wisdom, on a *rational* level, but that hasn’t stopped a LOT of folks – especially computer geeks (of whom I consider myself a member).
    Again, I could see some experimentation happening, just definitely unwise on Gen I (or II or III) right out of the gate. Not on a $40+K treasure.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  177. 177
    Loboc

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (12:14 pm)

    JeremyK: Let’s say you jailbreak the Volt to get an extra 10 EV miles per day….so about 300 miles per year of extra EV range. You might save $30/yr in gasoline. Is that really worth potentially decreasing the overall useful life of your pack, voiding the warranty and/or worse yet killing off a few of the cells and destroying the pack?

    I resemble that remark!

    Many engineering-types here think that GM is way too conservative with their battery management. I doubt that running at 15% SOC and also running up to 90% of full charge would affect the battery at all. 25% more AER would be good :)

    I would try to increase output not AER. 25% more power could get you down around 7-sec or less 0-60 time. This mod could have serious side effects such as burning out the controller or throwing transaxel parts all over the street. But again, engineers are designing for longevity and reliability not performance. The controller may be conservatively-engineered as well.

    It’s likely that the car will be ‘chipped’ by tuners very soon after launch. Once truck motors are available, the motor and controller will be swapped by us idiots.


  178. 178
    Loboc

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (12:24 pm)

    crew: ps. Oh! and by the way, I know a Prius needs to be garaged just to be able to start in these temps.

    I have never seen anything about Prius having a problem starting in extreme cold. Is there a reference somewhere?

    Or, maybe we’re just trying to get john1701a to appear and defend?

    /edit: Oh. I see he’s here. My 2c is that Prius is just as reliable as any other car even in extreme temps.


  179. 179
    Tim in SC

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (12:30 pm)

    So, everyone on here who blasted the LEAF when Nissan announced the 70 – 130 mile range, feel free to blast away yet again!


  180. 180
    jeffhre

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    JeremyK: If you take those cells down to 10% SOC enough…they fail.

    10% = automatic fail; FAIL


  181. 181
    ziv

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (12:40 pm)

    Nissan said that they had results ranging from 47 miles AER to 138, or from 47% of the stated range to 138% of the stated range. Less than half is not good, but it is realistic if you are flogging the car and using the heater. But it is kind of worrisome that your wife might need you to go pick her up if the weather is cold and she can’t get back from a 30 mile trip.
    The Volt is seeing AER from 62% of its stated range at worst to 125% at best, but even if the worst happens and your wife runs out of electricity, she drives home on the genset with no worries about finding a charger or frantic calls to her husband. This isn’t good news for the Leaf, but it is great news for the Volt that they are getting up to 50 miles AER.

    Tim in SC: So, everyone on here who blasted the LEAF when Nissan announced the 70 – 130 mile range, feel free to blast away yet again!  


  182. 182
    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

    Tim in SC: …everyone on here who blasted the LEAF when Nissan announced the 70 – 130 mile range, feel free to blast away yet again!

    I believe the main issues are styling, being Japan based, and limited range. 100 miles on a battery is pretty good. The 12 hour recharge is a downside.

    Example: I did some work in my kitchen yesterday. Drove 25 miles to get the parts I needed. Returned, tore everything down. Started to fit the parts and noticed that one was a connector misfit. I don’t have a lot of time away from my regular job so really wanted this kitchen done in one shot. If I drove a Leaf I may have made it to the store and back again. True, with the Leaf I save $10 in fuel, but limited range is a factor. My second internal combustion engine car could have ran the second 50 miles at 28mpg. The Volt will do both trips no problem using about 1.5 gallons total.

    =D-Volt

    kitchen%20parts.jpg


  183. 183
    Loboc

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (12:53 pm)

    OT.

    Texas State Fair starts today. Trying to get a yard pass to go see the Volt this weekend!


  184. 184
    Tom M

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (1:11 pm)

    Dave K.:
    I believe the main issues are styling, being Japan based, and limited range. 100 miles on a battery is pretty good. The 12 hour recharge is a downside.
    Example: I did some work in my kitchen yesterday. Drove 25 miles to get the parts I needed. Returned, tore everything down. Started to fit the parts and noticed that one was a connector misfit. I don’t have a lot of time away from my regular job so really wanted this kitchen done in one shot. If I drove a Leaf I may have made it to the store and back again. True, with the Leaf I save $10 in fuel, but limited range is a factor. My second internal combustion engine car could have ran the second 50 miles at 28mpg. The Volt will do both trips no problem using about 1.5 gallons total.=D-Volt  

    Perhaps, but if you plugged the car in when you returned. It would have been charging while you tore everything down and started to replace the worn parts and that would probably been enough to help you complete the trip. That being said, the LEAF’s 3.3kWh charger is garbage and they need to upgrade it to 6.6kWh ASAP. I hear 2nd year model will have it. There are an infinite number of instances where you could say the volt is better for this or the LEAF if better for that. There is no arguing that the volt is capable of handling more situations than any pure BEV.


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    EricLG

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (1:15 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  186. 186
    Dave K.

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (1:28 pm)

    Tom M: There is no arguing that the volt is capable of handling more situations than any pure BEV.

    Very true. At my workplace I have driven a battery GEM car about 100 times. All but one were good drives. The one that wasn’t was a trip into town. Didn’t realize it but it was slightly downhill. Drove downtown and arrived with more than 1/2 a battery charge remaining. Turned to go back to work. The speed limit is 30 so I needed to keep the GEM floored. It started to get dark out so I turned the headlights on. I was about 4 blocks from my workplace when the final energy bar turned yellow and a turtle icon displayed. I switched to low setting (15mph max) and made it back with nothing left in the battery.
    As I drove back I thought, “What will I say to the boss when I call for an extension cord?”. This event has shortened my leash a bit. Now I don’t drive more than 1/4 battery range before turning around.

    =D-Volt


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    JCook

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (1:50 pm)

    JCook: Those that are choosing to ignore some of the losses and act like removing the tranny takes away any loss and just add for regen and software(it’s only slightly more aero than the cruze) get 50. They also forget the added weight.  (Quote)

    I just want to point out again why I say lower than 40 mpg CS mode ~38. Yes any power that goes straight from the electric gen to the electric drive motor is more efficient than a tranny for a 1.4L ICE. However any power that goes from the electric gen to the battery then back out of the battery later through the ECM and then to the drive motor is less efficient than a tranny. In the Volt this will be dynamic so depending on conditions the system will be more or less efficient than the tranny in a cruze. Yes it does have regen which will help as well as the efficient running of the ICE. It also has added unused weight in CS mode because only about 20% of the battery is needed for regen purposes and the way the ICE runs and is stored. As far as the low rolling resistance and aero it’s not much better than the cruze. I am a Volt supporter and just stating facts about the operation. For anyone who thinks that deserves negative votes because you are just a blind follower in your life than vote away!!! I am not stating that 38mpg CS is a fact just a approx. educated guess based on the facts of operation.


  188. 188
    fred

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    The Volt is to expensive for me so I went and bought a used 2010 Honda Insight at a dealer in Massachusetts. Driving back to Ct. I hit 60.1mpg at highway speeds of 65 to 70. I’m very happy.
    I don’t know where all the lame reviews came from. If you know how to drive (anticipate) this car is easy to get max mileage


  189. 189
    Dave K.

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (2:06 pm)

    JCook: …because you are just a blind follower in your life than vote away!!!

    As an example, say you are driving your Volt at 50mph in CS mode (after the battery runs down). The Voltec system finds an efficient rpm in order to maintain 50mph. Say then that you slow and maintain 48mph. Will the ICE rpm drop by 200? Probably not. It will remain at the efficient rpm required to maintain 50mph. Where does the extra energy go? Probably into the battery buffer.

    You maintain 48mph for a few miles and the max of battery buffer is reached. What happens now? Three things may happen. The ICE will lower substantially to the next efficiency tuned rpm step. Or the ICE will lower to idle speed. Or the ICE will shut off for a mile.

    Last year one of the posts here at gm volt dot com concerning OnStar mentions that the route back to home base (your main recharge station) is held in memory. The reason being the ICE shouldn’t have to be in short-term-recharge mode when you’re just a mile from home.

    Volt CS is an awesome topic. Whatever the number, it’s fun to talk about.

    =D-Volt


  190. 190
    Dave K.

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (2:12 pm)

    fred: The Volt is to expensive for me so I went and bought a used 2010 Honda Insight at a dealer in Massachusetts. Driving back to Ct. I hit 60.1mpg. I’m happy.

    The new Insight is a good looking car. Happy for you Fred. Maybe a Volt truck in a few years?

    =D-Volt


  191. 191
    JCook

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (2:20 pm)

    Dave K.: As an example, say you are driving your Volt at 50mph in CS mode (after the battery runs down). The Voltec system finds an efficient rpm in order to maintain 50mph. Say then that you slow and maintain 48mph. Will the ICE rpm drop by 200? Probably not. It will remain at the efficient rpm required to maintain 50mph. Where does the extra energy go? Probably into the battery buffer. You maintain 48mph for a few miles and the max of battery buffer is reached. What happens now? Three things may happen. The ICE will lower substantially to the next efficiency tuned rpm step. Or the ICE will lower to idle speed. Or the ICE will shut off for a mile. Last year one of the posts here at gm volt dot com concerning OnStar mentions that the route back to home base (your main recharge station) is held in memory. The reason being the ICE shouldn’t have to be in short-term-recharge mode when you’re just a mile from home. Volt CS is an awesome topic. Whatever the number, it’s fun to talk about.=D-Volt  (Quote)

    I understand all this just didn’t think I needed to spell it out but it’s in my post. Now like you say when the battery buffer is reached where is the power coming from, THE BATTERY now it’s less efficient than the tranny, “in then out of the battery”. Yes I know about the set rpm range efficiency. This will be very dynamic in nature, which is opposite of static or moving constantly changing from one extreme to the other with every gradation in between(not the rpm’s). My point is it’s not always more efficient than a tranny it will be up and down. Some people act like the efficieny between 1500 rpm and 2000 rpm or 3500 rpm is a magnitude of order difference. It’s not. I’m not debating the operation I understand it well, Systems Engineer working with both electronics and mechanical and merging of the two. I am not insulting you just stating facts once again!!


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    Dave K.

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (2:30 pm)

    JCook: I am not insulting you…

    Not insulted at all. I believe we’re both stating facts. Seems your goal is to give reasons for a CS under 40. I’m saying there are many variables that may provide a higher CS. And have listed several. No hard feelings. Just equal opportunity chat.

    Off to the gym. Thanks for the spirited debate.

    =D-Volt

    PS: I just know someone will lower a Volt and put ground effects on it. Wait, it already has these. Never mind.


  193. 193
    Loboc

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (2:38 pm)

    Dave K.: Volt CS is an awesome topic. Whatever the number, it’s fun to talk about.

    Or, talking about it will drive you nutz :) .

    Pure CS mode is not really an operational mode of the car (no regen, no storage of power, etc.). Plus, in real-world CS mode (where the battery is involved in the motivation), mpg will be all over the map depending on external conditions.

    YMMV takes on a whole new meaning when your yearly average is well above 100mpg. We need to be talking gallons per year, not, miles per single gallon here.

    I am thinking even with electricity at 1/6 the price of gasoline that electricity will be a larger and more important expense than a few gallons of gas.


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    Sep 24th, 2010 (3:18 pm)

    Dave K.: Not insulted at all. I believe we’re both stating facts. Seems your goal is to give reasons for a CS under 40. I’m saying there are many variables that may provide a higher CS. And have listed several. No hard feelings. Just equal opportunity chat.Off to the gym. Thanks for the spirited debate.=D-VoltPS: I just know someone will lower a Volt and put ground effects on it. Wait, it already has these. Never mind.  (Quote)

    Another way to look at this is in CS mode every time the ICE kicks on and off it’s ~5% battery or ~4miles of range. That 4 miles is achieved at a lower efficiency than a tranny any energy that goes straight to the drive motor while the ice is running is more efficient than the tranny and this will change dynamically back and forth. I’m not sure how much consistent rpm’s will overcome this and anything I stated on that would be speculation.


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    JCook

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (3:22 pm)

    193 Loboc

    Sep 24th, 2010 (2:38 pm) .Dave K.: Volt CS is an awesome topic. Whatever the number, it’s fun to talk about.
    Or, talking about it will drive you nutz .

    Pure CS mode is not really an operational mode of the car (no regen, no storage of power, etc.). Plus, in real-world CS mode (where the battery is involved in the motivation), mpg will be all over the map depending on external conditions.

    YMMV takes on a whole new meaning when your yearly average is well above 100mpg. We need to be talking gallons per year, not, miles per single gallon here.

    I am thinking even with electricity at 1/6 the price of gasoline that electricity will be a larger and more important expense than a few gallons of gas.

    I agree with what you state and have stated some of the same things before. See my post #48. However the reason CS mpg is important is so an individual consumer can calculate there cost of ownership (plug/gas) based on there driving habits.


  196. 196
    Jackson

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:09 pm)

    “GM: Chevrolet Volt Has a Typical EV Range of 25 to 50 Miles”

    The upshot of this announcement is that for trolls, AER is now 25 miles, and not an inch further. For Volt supporters, AER is now at least 50 miles.

    If you’re not continuously passing and cutting off BMWs in ‘Sport Mode’ on the hottest (or coldest) day of the year, but drive reasonably instead, I would expect that real-world, mild-weather AER would top 45 – 48 (35 -38 under poor weather conditions).

    If you’re a hyper-miler you could maybe go farther; but I’m guessing it will be much harder to squeeze more out of the Volt (as opposed to other cars) using any more-than-reasonable technique. The beauty of the design is it’s ability to take maximum advantage of efficiency in a manner transparent to the driver. Just take it easy and enjoy passing the gas stations. ;-)


  197. 197
    Jackson

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:18 pm)

    Muhammad: I got the chance once to speak to a Volt battery engineer. They are still using the same percentage of the battery (around 50%). But it won’t charge up fully. So for example, it would operate in the range of 80%-30%.

    All of this is to save the life of the battery — both fully charging and discharging hurt the life.

    Yes, that is what we’ve been told for a couple of years. This “window” of usable capacity widens as the pack ages, so that you continue to get 40 (50?) miles of AER over the Volt’s expected lifetime. The speculation in this thread is that the engineers may have made a late-hour “tweak” of a percent or two (51 – 52% of the pack usable), based on testing which suggests the batteries are tougher than originally thought.

    It is entirely possible, of course, that GM really has “under promised and over delivered;” and that 25 – 50 miles is the expected range using the original window-size of 50%.


  198. 198
    Jackson

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:23 pm)

    I just had a thought. Is it possible that the pack management software has a learning capacity? It’s been observed that some ordinary internal-combustion-engine cars have transmissions which adjust to driving style. Could it be that a lead-foot will get less available charge over time (to protect the pack), while a more conservative driving-style gets “rewarded” with a greater portion?

    I guess this would amount to a highly-intelligent and enlightened form of “memory effect.”


  199. 199
    Loboc

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:36 pm)

    JCook: the reason CS mpg is important is so an individual consumer can calculate there cost of ownership (plug/gas) based on there driving habits.

    That’s only IF (and it’s a big if) CS mode mpg can be nailed down enough to plug it into an individuals driving habits. And also IF (another big if) that particular driver knows when the generator will kick on/off, the duration, and the power (giving the gasoline flow). The flow with the rate will give the gallons used.

    Sounds way iffy and almost impossible to model without knowing GM’s proprietary control code. It is possible, I suppose, to buy a bunch of dyno time and check the instantaneous mpg at various speeds, but, that’s not real world. (Basically model the black box by checking it’s gozins and gozouts.)

    Plus, the amount of gasoline used will be minuscule compared to the other costs involved.

    This is why I say CS mode mpg is irrelevant.


  200. 200
    DonC

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:50 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: See below for the link to the study. 50 miles range would cover 85% of the commutes. 25 miles range should cover about 60%.

    Your cite is good but there are two issues. One is that this is a survey, which is only OK if you think people have a good idea about how far they actually travel. Since we know they don’t this isn’t a great assumption. Two is that the survey is limited to commuting. Not everybody is concerned about this. There are a lot of people who drive who don’t commute.

    Consequently the real world numbers are much better. Not a big difference but more realistic. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf


  201. 201
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:50 pm)

    So, um;

    Anybody hear from Lyle today?


  202. 202
    pjkPA

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:58 pm)

    Lets see 75% of commuters drive 40 miles or less… what about how many people drive 60 miles?

    I would guess the VOLT will get over 100 mpg going 60 miles in a day.


  203. 203
    DonC

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (4:58 pm)

    Loboc: Plus, the amount of gasoline used will be minuscule compared to the other costs involved.
    This is why I say CS mode mpg is irrelevant. 

    +1 for this obvious point which so many don’t get. No one buys a Prius, which is essentially a stretched Corolla, to save on gas. And no one should buy a Volt for this reason either. The technology is just too expensive compared to the price of gas. And yeah, since my guess is that most people who buy the Volt will get 250+ MPG because they’re either not driving that far or charging more than once a day, the difference between 30 MPG and 50 MPG will be a rounding error.


  204. 204
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    Jackson: So, um;Anybody hear from Lyle today?  

    Not I, but I’ve been elsewhere.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    JCook

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (5:31 pm)

    Loboc: That’s only IF (and it’s a big if) CS mode mpg can be nailed down enough to plug it into an individuals driving habits. And also IF (another big if) that particular driver knows when the generator will kick on/off, the duration, and the power (giving the gasoline flow). The flow with the rate will give the gallons used.Sounds way iffy and almost impossible to model without knowing GM’s proprietary control code. It is possible, I suppose, to buy a bunch of dyno time and check the instantaneous mpg at various speeds, but, that’s not real world. (Basically model the black box by checking it’s gozins and gozouts.)Plus, the amount of gasoline used will be minuscule compared to the other costs involved.This is why I say CS mode mpg is irrelevant.  (Quote)

    You are correct about the driving habits but the EPA number will give a good avg.. By driving habits in this context I mean each individual knows about how long there daily commute is and there avg weekly driving and how many long trips they normally take within a year. This way they can calculate there ~ cost of ownership vs. the total cost of the Volt. With CS mpg and avg 40 mile AER and a good calculator that has these inputs it would be a good selling point. So it is still important to get a more accurate estimate of ownership per customer. I don’t want the # to dog on the Volt but to show an individual user there costs. Without this some consumers just don’t get the concept!!


  206. 206
    JCook

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (5:38 pm)

    DonC: +1 for this obvious point which so many don’t get. No one buys a Prius, which is essentially a stretched Corolla, to save on gas. And no one should buy a Volt for this reason either. The technology is just too expensive compared to the price of gas. And yeah, since my guess is that most people who buy the Volt will get 250+ MPG because they’re either not driving that far or charging more than once a day, the difference between 30 MPG and 50 MPG will be a rounding error.  (Quote)

    I get your point here, see my post #48. However some don’t seem to get this; so with a good calculator for cost based on driving habits naysayers will have more concrete # based on there commutes and normal driving (distances). So knowing the number at some point will be helpful. Yes we both understand this as well as the people that regular this site but for mass adoption it will be helpful even if it is sub 40mpg CS.


  207. 207
    john1701a

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (5:50 pm)

    Jackson: “under promised and over delivered”

    “too little, too slowly”


  208. 208
    DonC

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:12 pm)

    JCook: Yes we both understand this as well as the people that regular this site but for mass adoption it will be helpful even if it is sub 40mpg CS.

    It’s not that helpful because the J1711 approach is perfectly valid but hard to get your head around if you’ve spent a lifetime talking about MPG. It’s easier to talk about an EV like the Leaf because it doesn’t use any gas. IMO talking about MPG in CS Mode is confusing unless you understand J1711, and my guess is less than 1% of consumers do. Maybe later after the concepts have had some time to sink in, but right now MPG just misleads people.

    If you doubt this, just look at the reaction to the 230 MPG number. That number was probably low but people acted like it was fraudulent, saying dumb stuff like “so I can go from Chicago to Minneapolis on less than two gallons”, missing the point that 95% of the time they’re not going to Minneapolis, they’re going to the grocery store, and the remaining 5% of the time when they are going on a long trip they’ll probably take a larger vehicle.

    FWIW there can be no doubt that GM engineering knows, and has known for a while, exactly what the EPA MPG would be. They’re just not talking, for whatever reason.


  209. 209
    Loboc

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:30 pm)

    JCook: for mass adoption it will be helpful even if it is sub 40mpg CS.

    And that’s my point. Any CS mode mpg will just confuse the consumer. It’ll be:
    Prius = 50 mpg
    Volt = 40 mpg
    Malibu = 30 mpg

    Which totally ignores the fact that Volt is an electric-drive car.

    Alternately, let’s say you drive two trips yearly (like me) at 600 miles (1200 total). All my other miles are electric only (10000). That’s 40 gallons vs 24 gallons (30mpg vs 50mpg). For the cost of 16 gallons of gas on a $40k car, I don’t see the relevance.

    What’s that like 50 bucks in an entire year?

    Electricity for the 10k miles will be around $350. According to Allstate (with my profile) it’ll cost $768/year for insurance. The lease will be $4200/year. Where’s the relevance of $50 to a consumer spending over $5,000?


  210. 210
    Tagamet

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    Loboc:
    And that’s my point. Any CS mode mpg will just confuse the consumer. It’ll be:
    Prius = 50 mpg
    Volt = 40 mpg
    Malibu = 30 mpgWhich totally ignores the fact that Volt is an electric-drive car.
    Alternately, let’s say you drive two trips yearly (like me) at 600 miles (1200 total). All my other miles are electric only (10000). That’s 40 gallons vs 24 gallons (30mpg vs 50mpg). For the cost of 16 gallons of gas on a $40k car, I don’t see the relevance.
    What’s that like 50 bucks in an entire year?
    Electricity for the 10k miles will be around $350. According to Allstate (with my profile) it’ll cost $768/year for insurance. The lease will be $4200/year. Where’s the relevance of $50 to a consumer spending over $5,000?  

    A) You’re correct about the potential (if not certainty) of people making decisions based on mpg. Other than “word-of-mouth” Volt buyers and the folks here doing our part in public education re the Volt, it’s pretty much outside our sphere of influence. Sux, but true.

    B) For many, It’s not all about the money!!. Thank God, and true.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  211. 211
    herm

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:53 pm)

    carcus3: 2008 testing on the Tesla Roadster showed an efficiency of about 215wh/mile on the epa combined cycle.The Roadster will in all likelyhood have less aerodynamic drag than the Volt and could weigh1,000+lbs less.8 kwh’s at 215wh/mile would be 37.2 miles AER.The Volt may be using 2 electric motors in tandem for increased efficiency, but I don’t think there’s anyway that will make up for the weight.

    We know both the Volt and Roadster have about the same aerodynamic drag, both require about the same amount of power (50kw) to cruise at 100mph.

    We know weight has little effect on the range of a Volt, the losses are comparably lower than the accessory losses according to GM engineers, this is due to regen braking. There are reports the Volt is achieving 80% braking energy recovery. A record breaking high efficiency previously never achieved by any other BEV.

    The difference is that the Volt’s system has been optimized for cruising at around 48mph, and the Roadster is an all-out supercar. The Roadster uses a fixed gear transmission while the Volt has an electric infinitely variable transmission borrowed from the 2 Mode hybrids. Even the 50 mile range recently reported is a low number, we know the Volt achieves 66 miles of range doing the EPA city cycle. It will probably do higher than that in the hands of sensible drivers.


  212. 212
    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (6:54 pm)

    DonC: …no doubt that GM engineering knows, and has known for a while, exactly what the EPA MPG would be. They’re just not talking,…

    I would like to see a few more “typical” posts regarding the missing numbers for the Volt. The 25 mile difference between high and low on the initial battery range is welcome news. The honest explanation for the lower end is good as well.

    The CS tune on the Volt is maximized at 50mph. Would be good to see some typical numbers on three different miles per hour (20 – 50 – 80). A year ago GM posted battery test news from Canada. I believe the temperature was about 10 degrees. With the Volt being additionally cooled during storage before testing. The test results were not published, but feedback from engineering stated that all went well. A CS in snow may be only 32 miles at 35 mph. A CS in 75 degree temperatures may be 45 at 50mph. Hope we see some condition based highs and lows on the CS soon.

    After the post for today do you think we’ll see headlines reading: “Electric Volt just 25 on battery”? I doubt it. It’s surprising that several newer news reports display an image of the 2007 concept Volt.

    I’m still wondering what the dealerships are telling customers who stop in for information on the 2011 Volt. They are probably saying, “We will have a demo here in November for you to try. No details on MPG at this point”.

    =D-Volt

    MPV5%20ghost.jpg


  213. 213
    Tall Pete

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:09 pm)

    Streetlight: These numbers coincide well with LEAF. Recall in June Forbes reported LEAF EV range per charge from 138 miles to 47 miles. That’s roughly a best range of 20% over nominal (120%) and a worst case range of roughly 50% of nominal. (Where nominal EV range = 100 miles)

    Now GM saying … where VOLT nominal range = 40 miles … A best range of 50 miles or 20% over nominal (120%) and 25 miles or a worse case of 50%. See the point! Battery performance equates.

    You have a fuzzy calculation there. With a nominal of 100 miles for the Leaf, 47 miles is … 47% of nominal and 138 miles is 138 % of nominal. So Leaf is 47% to 138% of nominal

    Volt has a nominal of 40 miles. 25 miles is 62,5% and 50 miles is 125% so Volt is 62,5% to 125%. Much less variation.

    I don’t agree that these numbers (Leaf vs Volt) compare at all.


  214. 214
    Tall Pete

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:25 pm)

    EricLG: They want more time to convince the 34.5 remaining Volt fans that it (the CS mpg) does not matter.

    It doesn’t matter *that much*. Read the other posts on the topic today, #199 in particular.

    As for myself, I’m already convinced it doesn’t matter. The end result (average mileage) will be far better than with other cars.


  215. 215
    Jackson

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:41 pm)

    john1701a:
    “too little, too slowly”  

    Not to be confused with the Plug-In Prius:

    “too little, too late.”

    /wish I had been the one to think of that …


  216. 216
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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:48 pm)

    first, let me say that there are numerous factual errors in your remarks. i’m less critical of the skepticism in your comments than some here apparently are, i just think that your comments are a bit uninformed. for example, the battery capacity of the nissan leaf is 1.5 times that of the volt. i believe the price difference between the leaf and the volt is more like $11,000 and not the $15,000 that you claimed. but there is more to an electric drive car than the capacity of the battery. according to the last information that i have, the leaf has an air cooled battery while the leaf has a liquid cooling system to control the temperature of the battery. this has implications on the performance of the vehicle and on the life of the battery. that system isn’t free. furthermore, the volt has an on-board electric generator to provide extended range. that’s also not free.

    Lar Wolf: The Nissan Leaf is far more practical and in fact it shows just how much GM is over pricing their Volt because they keep claiming the battery is the most expensive component and they say the battery in the Leaf costs about $15,000 and it’s 2.5 times as big (by kilowatt hours it delivers) as the one in the Volt but they are selling the car for far less than the Volt!  


  217. 217
    Tall Pete

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:54 pm)

    Dave K.: I’m still wondering what the dealerships are telling customers who stop in for information on the 2011 Volt.

    Most people are still not aware of the existence of this car. There must not be a big flow of customers for this car in the dealerships … yet. Which explains why some are not very prepared to give the correct information to potential customers.

    As soon as the cars show up, it’ll be a different story. What’s the number of days left again ?


  218. 218
    JCook

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:55 pm)

    DonC: It’s not that helpful because the J1711 approach is perfectly valid but hard to get your head around if you’ve spent a lifetime talking about MPG. It’s easier to talk about an EV like the Leaf because it doesn’t use any gas. IMO talking about MPG in CS Mode is confusing unless you understand J1711, and my guess is less than 1% of consumers do. Maybe later after the concepts have had some time to sink in, but right now MPG just misleads people. If you doubt this, just look at the reaction to the 230 MPG number. That number was probably low but people acted like it was fraudulent, saying dumb stuff like “so I can go from Chicago to Minneapolis on less than two gallons”, missing the point that 95% of the time they’re not going to Minneapolis, they’re going to the grocery store, and the remaining 5% of the time when they are going on a long trip they’ll probably take a larger vehicle.FWIW there can be no doubt that GM engineering knows, and has known for a while, exactly what the EPA MPG would be. They’re just not talking, for whatever reason.  (Quote)

    This is why each dealer having the capability to input customer driving habits as I talked about before will give them a better idea of there individual aprox total energy cost(plug/gas). Not realeasing the number looks worse in my opinion. And a great deal of the public (future possible customers) agrees with me.


  219. 219
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (7:59 pm)

    Dave K.: I’m still wondering what the dealerships are telling customers who stop in for information on the 2011 Volt. They are probably saying, “We will have a demo here in November for you to try. No details on MPG at this point”.

    I knew 2 years ago that the brochures would not come out way ahead of the launch date, so I made our own ‘postcard’ size mini-handout to give customers who come in. Email me your address and I will send you one. It might become a collectible.

    Today was a slow news day, and a day off at the same time. I’ve updated our dealer site. Now the only thing remaining is the “CS Mode MPG”. Gimme that and all will be right with the world!


  220. 220
    Dave K.

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:09 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: I’ve updated our dealer site.

    Think you’ll be able to sell 18 Volts this year? And 52 next year? That’s one per week!

    =D-Volt

    Will email my address, thanks.


  221. 221
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:11 pm)

    JCook: This is why each dealer having the capability to input customer driving habits as I talked about before will give them a better idea of there individual aprox total energy cost(plug/gas). Not realeasing the number looks worse in my opinion. And a great deal of the public (future possible customers) agrees with me.

    No matter what the final CS Mode MPG figure is, in my opinion, what will close the sale is “Gallons-Per-Year” which could also be expressed in “Operational Cost-Per-Year”… followed closely by the all-important “Gizmo-Performance-Comfort-Style” Quotient. I am hoping that “Gallons-Per-Year” is mentioned in EVERY Volt commercial.


  222. 222
    john1701a

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:12 pm)

    Jackson:
    Not to be confused with the Plug-In Prius:“too little, too late.”/wish I had been the one to think of that …  

    Need I remind you about the 6 other new models rolling out between now and then?


  223. 223
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:18 pm)

    Dave K.: Think you’ll be able to sell 18 Volts this year? And 52 next year? That’s one per week!

    I’ve got invitations out to just about every high-ranking city-county-state government official in our area. When the price jumped from the expected $25,000-$35,000 range up to $40,280… I knew that government fleet sales would be a prime area of my focus. I’ve learned (like all of us here) that our government doesn’t mind spending a little more if it can be justified. When you consider the fuel savings combined with the Lease Program that GM is still talking about, then it should be a succesful promotion. :)


  224. 224
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:23 pm)

    Tall Pete: Most people are still not aware of the existence of this car. There must not be a big flow of customers for this car in the dealerships … yet.

    The ‘word’ is starting to get out. Almost all members of my Internet Sales Team have received calls about the Volt. I expect things to skyrocket after GM shows off a FANTASTIC Super Bowl TV Ad… Oh, and over Thanksgiving Weekend too! [I am praying to the car gods that GM does not drop the ball on this one thing...oh, please...oh, please...oh, please...oh, please...oh, please...oh, please...oh, please...]


  225. 225
    Jackson

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:24 pm)

    john1701a:
    Need I remind you about the 6 other new models rolling out between now and then?  

    Do you mean 6 new Plug-In models?!! Didn’t think so.

    You know, it was certainly possible for Toyota to investigate adding a plug to the Prius, even before the HyMotion conversion (there was a University version before that, wasn’t there?). By now, the Volt and LEAF might have been non-starters. But noo-o-o-o. All Toyo could be bothered to do was sit on it’s fat and happy @$$, unwilling to do anything more than maintain it’s lucrative status quo of being the only hybrid game in town: until the Toy company got it’s lunch eaten by none other than plain-old, plebian Chevrolet!! You gotta love it! Oh, yeah; well I guess you wouldn’t.

    What more can Toyota do now other than bang out it’s legacy HSD in as many models as possible, while it’s still relevant, and try to play catch-up? Just two more words for you and your six new models: Highlander Hybrid.

    Do you have any inkling of how much of a joke you’ve become?

    No, I know you don’t.


  226. 226
    JCook

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:30 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: No matter what the final CS Mode MPG figure is, in my opinion, what will close the sale is “Gallons-Per-Year” which could also be expressed in “Operational Cost-Per-Year”… followed closely by the all-important “Gizmo-Performance-Comfort-Style” Quotient. I am hoping that “Gallons-Per-Year” is mentioned in EVERY Volt commercial.  (Quote)

    I completely agree. If you can then taylor it to an individual customers driving habits as far a there commute then it will give them more of a warm an fuzzy, but you need both AER and CS mpg to do this part.


  227. 227
    john1701a

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:38 pm)

    Jackson:
    Do you have any inkling of how much of a joke you’ve become?No, I know you don’t.  

    Observing such disregard for business need is fascinating.

    Ever hear of product diversity?


  228. 228
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (8:59 pm)

    Jackson: You gotta love it! Oh, yeah; well I guess you wouldn’t.

    You gotta let this one go and just ignore him before you bust a vein or something. He is apparently just a guy with positive things to say about Toyotas, but is too mentally impared to understand that he is posting his information in the wrong venue. I suppose if he were intelligent enough to build a blog site like this one, just for “his preciousssss….” (insert Gollum impersonation) he could have a following as large as this site.

    But since he isn’t, and apparently there is not a permanent site like this dedicated to Prius, he has to post his information here to get any kind of response. And since he can’t take a hint and will not go away, you have to take pity on a guy with so much to say yet he can’t find like-minded people who will even listen.

    Just click “-” and move on. It’s sad really. Just sad.


  229. 229
    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:03 pm)

    Jackson: Having discovered the ’secret’ of how to make green letters appear in the comments, I found earlier this week that nothing I submit using those tags ‘takes.’I just figured Lyle decided to keep that little goody for himself, but perhaps it is related to the malfunction.I’ll try the tag NOW.Did I mention that I also used to test software (not html, though)?Edit:OK, that works.Don’t know what happened to that, earlier.  

    Well Jackson, it worked this time as you can see. ;) I like Tagamet was having trouble posting, loosing the text, total loss of the text I typed in. Going directly to the last post without showing my submission. Turned out everything was in moderation and showed up later. ???

    Thanks for the tags for green text. :)

    Be Well and Prosper!

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  230. 230
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:10 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: …Just click “-” and move on. It’s sad really. Just sad…

    Excellent idea! We’ll hyphenate the guy! (g)

    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /I agree. john-boy is sad….


  231. 231
    Helmut

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:26 pm)

    Yeah, they sure did hold back the good news that it was 25-50 instead of 40+ like postulated over and over and over ad nauseum here at GM-Volt. I’m on the edge of my seat waiting to hear that it will get 15-42 mpg depending on whether I’m driving up a slight grade with the A/C set to 70, or coasting down a hill with a slight tailwind. Pricing was surprise good news too! Go GM, go!!


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    Red HHR

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:35 pm)

  233. 233
    carcus3

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:36 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: I’ve got invitations out to just about every high-ranking city-county-state government official in our area. When the price jumped from the expected $25,000-$35,000 range up to $40,280… I knew that government fleet sales would be a prime area of my focus. I’ve learned (like all of us here) that our government doesn’t mind spending a little more……

    I respect that you eat what you kill …. but, you realize how this sounds to those of us who aren’t too keen on the idea of Government Motors?


  234. 234
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:36 pm)

    Helmut: …Go GM, go!!

    Amen!

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:41 pm)

    if you get 300 miles of extended range driving from a 9 gallon gas tank, then that looks like 33 mpg to me. maybe i’m missing something here but any other measure seems artificial to me. of course the 33 mpg figure is conditional, but the reason why i care about the cs mode is because it lets me know how far i can drive the vehicle once it leaves cd mode. on the other hand, if i rarely, if ever, get out of cd mode, then the cs mpg figure would be pretty irrelevant for day to day use.

    i suppose that’s the problem with stating a cs mpg figure: it seems like it would be difficult to explain exactly what the figure really means. to that extent, i can’t say that i would blame gm for not wanting to state a cs mpg figure.

    CorvetteGuy:
    I knew 2 years ago that the brochures would not come out way ahead of the launch date, so I made our own ‘postcard’ size mini-handout to give customers who come in. Email me your address and I will send you one. It might become a collectible.
    Today was a slow news day, and a day off at the same time. I’ve updated our dealer site. Now the only thing remaining is the “CS Mode MPG”. Gimme that and all will be right with the world!  


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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:44 pm)

    on the other hand, some of us who aren’t so in love with the libertarian gab would rather have “government motors” than to have no automobile industry in the united states at all.

    carcus3:
    I respect that you eat what you kill …. but, you realize how this sounds to those of us who aren’t too keen on the idea of Government Motors?  


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    Tagamet

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:51 pm)

    no comment: on the other hand, some of us who aren’t so in love with the libertarian gab would rather have “government motors” than to have no automobile industry in the united states at all.

    carcus3:
    I respect that you eat what you kill …. but, you realize how this sounds to those of us who aren’t too keen on the idea of Government Motors?

    And we were doing *so* well….

    Be well,
    Tagamet
    /night all


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    Red HHR

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:57 pm)

    I thought it was Global Motors !

    Red HHR


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    Jackson

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (9:59 pm)

    john1701a:
    Observing such disregard for business need is fascinating.Ever hear of product diversity?  

    Such delusion and clear disconnect from reality is pathetic. Now, HSD comes in six exciting flavors! Whoopee!!! How different from each other are they, really?

    Sure, Toyota will make and sell a lot of HSD-derived vehicles: but the future of HSD is going to be all about cost-reduction in a fairly short time. The tardy, Volt-following Plug-In is the last possible innovation before the inevitable product-cheapening of the bean-counters. If Toyota wants to compete in the Volt and LEAF segment, with something that actually breaks new ground, it will have to be with a from-scratch vehicle much more like the Volt and LEAF; not some legacy-hobbled modification of a decade-old, weak EV design. Somehow I don’t see that happening soon. Asian “face saving” and all that. What would the old men in Japan have to admit?

    As always for the Prii Fanbois, there is no future; hasn’t it always been Prius? For the BEV and EREV advocate, there is no past; nothing on the road today compares with what is to come. The only way forward for us is up. The greatest days of Toyota are in it’s past. Flaws to both points of view to be sure, but the future frequently belongs to the bold: not to timid old men muttering over their rice.


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    Jackson

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:10 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Just click “-” and move on. It’s sad really. Just sad.

    Tagamet: And we were doing *so* well….

    :-) Must be time for a new thread!!!! :-)


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    Helmut

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:22 pm)

    Damn your anti GM sentiment. Added forms of propulsion makes the car more efficient, plus NPNS and LJGTVWOTR NMWICTT (no matter what it costs the taxpayer). Long live car 2.0, may car 3.0 have seven forms of drivetrain whimsy, I suggest GM consider adding pedals and a flywheel feature that makes that neat toy car, whir whirrr whirrrrr sound. Go GM, go girl!

    JCook:
    Those that are choosing to ignore some of the losses and act like removing the tranny takes away any loss and just add for regen and software(it’s only slightly more aero than the cruze) get 50.They also forget the added weight.  


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    crew

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (10:49 pm)

    john1701a:
    Since most people are aware that’s not the case, what was the purpose of that comment?Every winter I end up leaving the Prius out all day in temperatures below 0°F.

    Aww shucks, it must have been the first generation Prius.
    Lessons learned, huh.


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    crew

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:02 pm)

    john1701a:
    Ever hear of product diversity?

    You’re not actually referring to Toyota as being diverse above GM are you?
    Really? You said that?


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    crew

     

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    Sep 24th, 2010 (11:27 pm)

    A 40 mile range is what we will get with normal driving. +/- 8 is what will be the deviation. GM has had the EREV in the Malibu, Cruze, and preproduction Volts to back up the talk. The report is surprising to me to offer a 50 mile range, not bad. Extreme low temps, as GM has said, affect range. High temps affect longevity.
    The Volts’ got it covered well above virtually ANY battery in every car sold.

    Knee jerk reactions that I’ve read in the press seem quick to jump on the text as a backstep from GM, I don’t see it that way. Looks like they’re just offering range in plain language, nothing more. I’ve been able to sort through the clippings a little to ferret out the writers as headline grabbers or truly knowledgeable authors.

    After EV’s get on the road for a while and a winter, no doubt, the real world range will make the driveway spot for a Volt worthwhile. The Leaf and any other EV will be the second best advertisers for the Volt.

    ps. I still don’t know why Prius numbers are posted on the Volt site!


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    Heat84

     

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (2:02 am)

    What does the CS in CS mode stand for?


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    john1701a

     

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    crew:
    Aww shucks, it must have been the first generation Prius.
    Lessons learned, huh.  

    Nope, that one started effortlessly in the cold too.


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    john1701a

     

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (7:41 am)

    crew:
    You’re not actually referring to Toyota as being diverse above GM are you?
    Really? You said that?  

    Who has no plans to offer a midprice no-plug high-efficiency vehicle?


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    john1701a

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (7:44 am)

    Heat84: What does the CS in CS mode stand for?  

    Charge Sustaining

    It’s when the engine runs to generate electricity after the battery is depleted.


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    crew

     

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (8:32 am)

    john1701a:
    Nope, that one started effortlessly in the cold too.

    When the Prius was introduced to the US market, I was extremely interested in the technology and am still complementary of the car. There were a few cautions and concerns. First was battery life and expense and that concern has proven to be considerably less of a fear than imagined. Second was accident control, fire departments could not use conventional methods to approach an EV fire potential. Third was cold temperature performance but unless the temp was as extreme (as it is for the Volt cold weather testing) the car does OK and still performs above non hybrid cars.
    The extreme conditions that create non start situations were not normal. A Prius that has not been maintained will cause the owner difficulties, just as any other car would. Still, the Prius, in extreme cold benefits from an engine heater, a radiator block and being garaged. Also, it helps to back the car into the driveway since reverse is questionable too. What you drive now is the most fuel efficient hybrid sold in the US and is deserving of all of your pride.

    Since the Volt has replaced my curiosity for hybrids with the EREV, I have taken this car to heart and defend it with a passion. My bias shows once in a while but I have no apologies.


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    John

     

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (9:59 am)

    16kWh battery, but recharges at 32% capacity and isn’t charged > 80% means it has a usable capacity of 8kWh. If the motor runs 150hp that is about 115 minutes of drive time in optimal conditions. However, some level of loss is going to happen. A tesla driver mentioned to a group of us at the PA energy fest that he gets appx 3 miles per kWh. So, the Tesla on 8kWh would be 24 miles. He says his car is good for about 120 miles on a charge.

    I’d like to see a usable range for the Lithium battery be 30% to 85% perhaps. Maybe there will come a day when the computer can be altered based on driving conditions or if all the cells are properly balanced, the risk of going into those ranges isn’t hard on the battery chemicals.

    Could the range have been better with the A123 LiFE chemistry? Possibly since they can take the abuse (scientifically?) better than the Lithium stuff from LG. I have to wonder if A123 could have taken the Volt to the “next level” and made it a 60-80 mile car which is better for many people’s commuting conditions in larger metro areas (where smog abatement is one reason to go electric).


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    JCook

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (10:30 am)

    Helmut: Damn your anti GM sentiment. Added forms of propulsion makes the car more efficient, plus NPNS and LJGTVWOTR NMWICTT (no matter what it costs the taxpayer). Long live car 2.0, may car 3.0 have seven forms of drivetrain whimsy, I suggest GM consider adding pedals and a flywheel feature that makes that neat toy car, whir whirrr whirrrrr sound. Go GM, go girl!  (Quote)

    It’s not anti GM sentiment you moron. Just stating facts about the site and the Volt. You don’t have to be blind to support something. I’m not bashing GM or for that matter being critical of them on a Toyota site! For the millionth time I am a Volt support and if you read all my post you would see this. My father is a GM service manager and has been for about 25 years. I want to see GM succeed!


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    JCook

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (10:33 am)

    Helmut: Damn your anti GM sentiment. Added forms of propulsion makes the car more efficient, plus NPNS and LJGTVWOTR NMWICTT (no matter what it costs the taxpayer). Long live car 2.0, may car 3.0 have seven forms of drivetrain whimsy, I suggest GM consider adding pedals and a flywheel feature that makes that neat toy car, whir whirrr whirrrrr sound. Go GM, go girl!  (Quote)

    Is this better for you!! I love GM no matter what they do. I think CS mode mpg is going to be 80! :o ) How’s that. Some people actually like to use there brain rather than being led around like a sheep.


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    GripperDon

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (1:38 pm)

    I don’t know what CS mode refers to But what i want to know is the milage in city, 100F out side 73F interior Air Conditioner in full auto mote. All the rest is BS

    Remember real drivers are not the UAW Trolls rewsponsible for this overpriced Government Motors thing. Happy sppending our money to indirectly fund the PACS!


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    Noel Park

     

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    Sep 25th, 2010 (2:26 pm)

    Cab Driver:
    Is this a pi in the sky guess?  

    Rats, you beat me to to, LOL. +1


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    crew

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    Sep 26th, 2010 (5:23 pm)

    john1701a:
    Who has no plans to offer a midprice no-plug high-efficiency vehicle?

    Diverse is one car? The hybrid line of Toyota is notable for the use of a single driveline used in quite a few cars. Seems like you didn’t want to do a little more research into hybrid drivetrains at GM and compare the diversity.


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    john1701a

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    Sep 26th, 2010 (7:35 pm)

    crew: Diverse is one car? The hybrid line of Toyota is notable for the use of a single driveline used in quite a few cars. Seems like you didn’t want to do a little more research into hybrid drivetrains at GM and compare the diversity.

    The flexibility of that system allows it to be used in everything from a small car to a 280 horsepower truck with AWD, seating for 7, and towing capacity of 3,500 pounds. How is that not diverse?

    As for GM offering something similar, when is that planned?

    Volt will do fine with it’s particular market, but it must diversify. One size does not fit all.


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    crew

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    Sep 26th, 2010 (7:45 pm)

    john1701a:
    The flexibility of that system allows it to be used in everything from a small car to a 280 horsepower truck with AWD, seating for 7, and towing capacity of 3,500 pounds.How is that not diverse?As for GM offering something similar, when is that planned?Volt will do fine with it’s particular market, but it must diversify.One size does not fit all.

    You know your Japanese company but not one in your own back yard. Look a little deeper and even your 7 passenger vehicle is bested by GM, never mind the Prius.


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    crew

     

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    Sep 26th, 2010 (8:09 pm)

    john1701a:
    .One size does not fit all.

    Sounds like your describing the Toyota drivetrain. adapting a single system to “fit all”.
    I like your tenacity in promoting your affection for things Toyota, but don’t you realize just how much you have drifted into an unhealthy fanaticism for an automobile?
    I have noticed that you haven’t degraded into the overtly insulting text that others have used to knock the Volt, but your persistence in insisting on degrading the Volt below a Toyota is not much less disrespectful for the product that GM is offering.


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    Helmut

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    Sep 28th, 2010 (8:40 pm)

    19.gif


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    Mel

     

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    Sep 28th, 2010 (9:23 pm)

    So the if car roughly saves 1 gallon of gas a day , how much of that savings is offset for the cost of charging the batteries for the next run? The price of hydro is skyrocketing in Ontairo!!


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    Jimbo

     

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    Sep 30th, 2010 (2:29 pm)

    Crap. Get a Tesla, Model S — 300 miles per charge.