Sep 12

EEStor Has Just Invited Government Agencies to Technology Demonstration

 


[ad#post_ad]The EEStor, Zenn Motor Company saga isn’t over yet. Most people think its all just hype and vaporware, and after famously publishing that the infamous EESU would be unveiled “imminently” in July 2009 my credibility may have taken a hit. Actually I was only publishing what Zenn CEO Ian Clifford told me in an exclusive intervierw at the time.

Well it turns out despite more than a year later being without an EESU, Zenn is still alive though their cash resevers are dwindling fast, they are waiting for Texas-based EEStor, of which they are 11% owner, to deliver fully-functional electrical energy storage units (EESU) so that they can package them into brand new ZENNergy drivetrains that would be sold to other OEMs to propel their electric cars.

For those who aren’t up on this story, the EESU is a low-priced solid-state capacitor/battery hybrid device that would be several times as power and energy dense as lithium ion cells and therefore much more compact and lightweight. It could be recharged in 5 minutes and experience essentially no degradation over time. To boot it would be several times less expensive than lithium-cells and made out of readily available barite which is found in great abundance in the US. It is the holy grail of electric cars.

Too good to be true right? So far still seems so.

A blogger who goes by the name of “B” and intentionally remains anonymous has been incessantly and methodically researching and blogging about these two companies. I respect B and have emailed and spoken with him on numerous occasions. He recently pointed out new news to me he obtained by wielding the powerful tool of the FOIA (freedom of information act) with which he and his team was able to retrieve an email and many other documents from the US Air Force pertaining to EEStor.

The documents revealed that a senior staffer in the USAF Research Lab received a phone call on July 8th 2010 from Dick Weir, founder and CEO of EEStor, and co-inventor of the EESU technology. Weir told the staffer he was “almost ready to demonstrate” his capacitor, and was calling to invite the USAF to see a technology demonstration.

The staffer asked point blank if Weir had finally fabricated a fully working EESU. “Not quite,” responded Weir. “But we are so close.”

The email also noted that both Sandia National lab and Lockheed-Martin personnel were being invited to the demonstration as well. Lockheed has a partnership agreement with EEStor to produce military and possible grid-leveling applications based on the EESU.

B was also able to determine from anonymous sources that Weir wanted Sandia to perform testing of the EEStor technology, and provide third party verification of its properties, something that Sandia has reportedly “fully agreed” to. He also obtained information that the reason Weir was setting up this demonstration was that he needs more funding to expand his Texas production facility to go into commercial production. Third party testing would be needed to secure funding which may well be from the government.

The date of this demonstration is unknown and may have even already taken place. As usual, my request for information from Mr. Weir was not returned.

And so the story of EEStor lives on in real-time remaining filled with military and political intrigue, nail-biting excitement, and dreams of endless riches to hopeful Zenn shareholders and limitless inexpensive US made electric cars for the world.

But will it have a happy ending or are we blathering on about nothing. Only time will tell.

Source (Bariumtitanate.blogspot.com)
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This entry was posted on Sunday, September 12th, 2010 at 7:41 am and is filed under EEStor. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 123


  1. 1
    Jim I

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (7:45 am)

    Show us the unit!!


  2. 2
    Tagamet

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (7:48 am)

    We’re blathering on about nothing (g). Close doesn’t cut it. It’d be great, but….. well I can think of a lot of things that’d be great. I need coffee.
    The Volt works pretty well right now.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  3. 3
    Tagamet

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (7:49 am)

    Jim I: Show us the unit!!  

    Don’t say that in NYC! (lol)

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  4. 4
    neutron

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:11 am)

    WOW!
    Well it appears it is “show and tell” time. Will it live up to the hype?? Could be a game changer or… just one small step or…
    As one of our valuable contributers always states this will indeed be a time to be “stay tuned” :+}


  5. 5
    John

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:12 am)

    Folks weren’t upset because you were “only publishing what Zenn CEO Ian Clifford told [you] in an exclusive intervierw at the time” – they were upset because you did so uncritically, for people with transparent financial motives.

    Until they have a verified prototype this still isn’t news, and shouldn’t be given yet more attention.


  6. 6
    Red HHR

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:21 am)

    Obviously this technology is so powerful it must be kept under wraps. If released it would destroy the oil industry, cause economic chaos, and destroy life as we know it.


  7. 7
    herm

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:28 am)

    Tagamet: We’re blathering on about nothing (g). Close doesn’t cut it. It’d be great, but….. well I can think of a lot of things that’d be great. I need coffee.
    The Volt works pretty well right now.Be well,
    Tagamet

    Worse than nothing, just about Weir sending an email to some guys in gov.. “The staffer asked point blank if Weir had finally fabricated a fully working EESU. “Not quite,” responded Weir. “But we are so close.” ”

    Weir will use this email to scam more money from his investors.. Email can be a very valuable tool for business. With the Volt and LEAF almost among us, the time for this scam and FUD device has passed.


  8. 8
    nuclearboy

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:38 am)

    The capacitor is in the freezer next to bigfoot.

    http://www.10dailythings.com/tag/bigfoot/


  9. 9
    Jason M. Hendler

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:42 am)

    The invitation may have been a preemptive strike to prevent an audit / investigation by the Air Force, partners and investors.


  10. 10
    Jimza Skeptic

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:45 am)

    Looking at the photo, that does not look like a document obtained via the freedom from information act. It looks like a fake email created, printed and then a digital photo take with strategically placed electronic black (blue) outs to hide the supposed sender and receiver of the email.

    A government document received via FOIA, will be a hard copy stamped with all sorts of approvals and the “confidential” information blacked out or removed. Not a digital “blue out” !!

    LOLOL 😉


  11. 11
    Tom W

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:58 am)

    If a miracle happens and an eeStor unit can be mass produced, would that would be the end of the Volt with 300 mile range BEVs, or would the Volt live on with 60+mile range and much lower MSRP?

    Or would that just be the end of conventional ICE cars and we’d move immediately to all cars being BEV/EREVs?

    Or am I just wasting my time dreaming?


  12. 12
    Brewster

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:01 am)

    Assuming there is any truth at all to EESTOR, anybody any idea what problems they’re running into that’s causing the huge delay?


  13. 13
    Exp_EngTech

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:03 am)

    We’re still fine tuning the Hyperdrive.
    Turning in some pretty hot practice laps around the Mojave.

    070724_flying_saucer_02.jpg

    The General called again offering his moral support.
    He said….. “I’d pi$$ on a spark plug if I thought it’d do any good!”

    3617.gif

    AREA 51
    Lockheed Martin / EEStor Integration Lab

    END TRANSMISSION


  14. 14
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:04 am)

    ZNNMF was at $5.70 one year ago. Then it steadily dropped. There was an unusual spike last month on Aug. 19th when it jumped to $2.37… That’s probably when the meeting took place. Now it has settled down again to $1.88… Calm before the storm? I like betting on the underdog.


  15. 15
    Pat

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:06 am)

    Seems the only reason he has come out with this eamil story etc He needs more $$$ ..if the product is so great or has potential ..he cud patent it & not worry about the secrecy he has shrouded it with all this time ..something fishy here but ….


  16. 16
    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:10 am)

    Tom W: If a miracle happens and an eeStor unit can be mass produced, would that would be the end of the Volt with 300 mile range BEVs, or would the Volt live on with 60+mile range and much lower MSRP?

    Just the ICE Generator would go. It seems they could just yank that, build a T-shaped super-capacitor to fill the battery slot, then you have a 500 AER Volt. Zenn would hit it big with all the licensing fees from every auto maker.


  17. 17
    Roy H

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:17 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: Looking at the photo, that does not look like a document obtained via the freedom from information act.It looks like a fake email created, printed and then a digital photo take with strategically placed electronic black (blue) outs to hide the supposed sender and receiver of the email.A government document received via FOIA, will be a hard copy stamped with all sorts of approvals and the “confidential” information blacked out or removed.Not a digital “blue out” !!LOLOL   

    I agree 100%. There is no reason to believe this is genuine. Must be confirmed by Sandia Labs, Air Force etc. “B” is definitely not a reliable source. I have followed this for years, and even lost money investing in ZENN (sold the last of my shares in January).

    Despite all the evidence that this is a scam, if you take all the info as gospel then you will come to the conclusion that this is NOT the holy grail for EVs. It does have some intriguing properties and when originally introduced had much higher energy density than then available batteries, at a projected lower cost. As battery technology moves on this performance advantage has been whittled away and is now (generously assuming it exists) maybe only cost competitive. The biggest problem is the DC-DC conversion electronics that must be added to the price. Building a DC to DC converter that can handle variable voltages from 400 to 4000 at upwards of 500 amps is not a trivial task. Not impossible mind you, just not cheap or particularly small. Dick Wier has all but lost his window of opportunity. Next generation of batteries will be a better choice anyway.


  18. 18
    JP

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:31 am)

    nuclearboy: The capacitor is in the freezer next to bigfoot.http://www.10dailythings.com/tag/bigfoot/  (Quote)

    Good one, this is hilarious. =)


  19. 19
    Roy H

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:33 am)

    Brewster: Assuming there is any truth at all to EESTOR, anybody any idea what problems they’re running into that’s causing the huge delay?  

    This is more evidence that it is a scam. ZENN has been promised delivery of units every Christmas for 3 years. In the “leaked” interview from one year ago, http://www.4all.com/uploads/DW_Confcall_jun2009.mp3 Dick Wier states that production, not prototypes, will be available by spring and that a pre-production unit will be delivered to ZENN before the end of the year (again). Now if you take the interview as fact, and the production line is already finished, why does he need additional financing?

    To answer your question, the last excuse was waiting for patent approvals.


  20. 20
    Jason M. Hendler

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:39 am)

    Roy H,

    It is too much to say that battery tech is now comparable to EEStor tech. There are no infinite life rapid recharge batteries.

    Caps can be designed into EV’s at any point and be lighter, cheaper and longer lasting.


  21. 21
    doggydogworld

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:51 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: Looking at the photo, that does not look like a document obtained via the freedom from information act. It looks like a fake email created, printed and then a digital photo take with strategically placed electronic black (blue) outs to hide the supposed sender and receiver of the email.

    I’m confident the e-mail is real. B added the blue boxes himself. He didn’t want to subject a couple of generally anonymous civil servants to harassment. He’s also trying to work these people as sources and doesn’t want to make them mad.. You can do your own FOIA search, get your own hardcopies and reveal the redacted names to the world if you like.

    The only news from this is that years after saying mass production was “imminent” Dick Weir still does not have a working device. Tech startups all live by the same rule: “Demo or Die”. He died a long time ago. Is a resurrection imminent? You can never completely rule anything out, but don’t bet the 401k on it.


  22. 22
    Grady C

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:55 am)

    This looks more like an attempt by someone to dump some Zenn shares as a result of a quick flurry of activity in the stock. Zenn’s three month average daily trading volume is 58k, or less than $120,000 per day. Friday, it was 158k, or over $300,000. The price increase Friday was 19 percent.

    I’ve followed Zenn and EESTOR since 2005. There has been a recurring pattern of tight-lipped press releases preceeded and followed by price rises and then followed by a trickle back down when nothing comes of it. In the past, the event was an actual press release from EESTOR or Zenn, but this doesn’t even rise to that level.


  23. 23
    Roy H

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:58 am)

    Jason M. Hendler: Roy H,It is too much to say that battery tech is now comparable to EEStor tech.There are no infinite life rapid recharge batteries.Caps can be designed into EV’s at any point and be lighter, cheaper and longer lasting.  

    I am surprised that you, Jason, of all people is defending EEStor. Yes infinite cycles and minimal losses does sound appealing, but what is the practical value? If you have a 50kwh battery and charge is every day for 10 years then it will have gone through 3650 cycles giving you about 200 miles per day or 730k miles total. A123 has claimed up to 8000 cycles. Is infinite really necessary? To blandly say caps are smaller, lighter and cheaper is not true with any existing capacitor. Even with EEStor’s caps DW claims 400 Wh/kg and 700 Wh/l, impressive yes, but out of reach, no. The Panasonic batteries being used by Tesla’s Model S are 230 Wh/kg and 600 Wh/l. Don’t forget you have to add the DC-DC converter to the EEStor system.


  24. 24
    RB

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (10:16 am)

    17 Roy H: The biggest problem is the DC-DC conversion electronics that must be added to the price. Building a DC to DC converter that can handle variable voltages from 400 to 4000 at upwards of 500 amps is not a trivial task. Not impossible mind you, just not cheap or particularly small.

    .
    But we don’t want to speak of such things, for to do so would destroy the illusion that we all are enjoying for at least a little longer 🙂

    You are mentioning, maybe even on purpose 🙂 the Achilles’s heel of capacitor based energy storage — how to get the energy back out, in a cheap and easy way. Not hard if there’s not much draw, the voltage is not too high, or the application is not otherwise very demanding, but if any of these are not so, then…. There are a few issues with charging, too, when one gets down to details.


  25. 25
    jeremy

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (10:25 am)

    I’ll believe it when I see it. While it would be fantastic if it were real It seems all they’ve achieved is to pump and dump ZENN stock several times.


  26. 26
    Texas

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (10:27 am)

    Trying to keep the scam alive. How long can they do it? How long can they avoid prison? Nobody knows but the fuzzy nature of technology provides the right environment for people to take advantage of others.

    Remember, not even one tiny cap is ready for testing, forget a about a completed device. Not one piece of working technology. Not one single prototype! It is the perfect scam because even if you don’t produce anything, you can probably get away with it in the court of law because the American people know nothing about technology. It’s all voodoo to them.


  27. 27
    LauraM

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (10:34 am)

    Brewster: Assuming there is any truth at all to EESTOR, anybody any idea what problems they’re running into that’s causing the huge delay?

    New tech usually runs into unexpected problems. Sometimes those problems solved with more time and money. Sometimes they can’t.

    Sometimes you can work on an problem for decades before anything useful comes of it. That’s the classic argument for government support for certain technologies. They have a much longer time frame than the private sector. Some technologies would be worth the longer time frame if they ever work out.

    With Lockheed Martin involved, I’m sure that EEstor is working on *something.* Whether that something will ever be commercially viable is another story.


  28. 28
    Tagamet

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:12 am)

    JP: nuclearboy: The capacitor is in the freezer next to bigfoot.http://www.10dailythings.com/tag/bigfoot/ (Quote)

    Good one, this is hilarious. =)

    You make it sound like he was joking.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  29. 29
    David

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:12 am)

    Yes, an EEstor unit is just around the corner along with the Boston String Ensemble playing “Beautiful Dreamer.”


  30. 30
    Rob

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:31 am)

    Let’s face it – even if EESU works, it will not power electric cars. The technology has too much national security significance to go to private use. Most likely it will power military lasers.


  31. 31
    Dave K.

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:32 am)

    Sure hope it’s real this time…

    Exp_EngTech: We’re still fine tuning the Hyperdrive.
    Turning in some pretty hot practice laps around the Mojave.

    http://garfwod.250free.com/fluids.wav

    =D-Volt


  32. 32
    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: Looking at the photo, that does not look like a document obtained via the freedom from information act.It looks like a fake email created, printed and then a digital photo take with strategically placed electronic black (blue) outs to hide the supposed sender and receiver of the email.A government document received via FOIA, will be a hard copy stamped with all sorts of approvals and the “confidential” information blacked out or removed.Not a digital “blue out” !!LOLOL   

    It’s a sanitized copy of an email, not an agency document.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  33. 33
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:44 am)

    OT: Just saw an ad for the Chrome browser here on the site. Does anyone know if it has a spell checker?
    TIA.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  34. 34
    francomerican

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:51 am)

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    LRGVProVolt

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:59 am)

    Pat: Seems the only reason he has come out with this eamil storyetcHe needs more $$$..if the product is so great or has potential ..he cud patent it & not worry about the secrecy he has shrouded it with all this time ..something fishy herebut ….  

    It is already patented! Also, there is another company working toward the same goal: Recapping Inc.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  36. 36
    Truman

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    charlesbabbage.jpg
    Charles Babbage, Fellow of the Royal Society

    Began work in 1822 on a “difference engine”, made to compute values of polynomial functions. This contraption would have been composed of 25,000 parts, weighed 15 tons, and been 8 feet high. Lack of adequate funding, and personality conflicts, led to an unfinished project.

    Babbage moved on to an improved machine (starting in 1837) – the Analytical Engine, which could be programmed using punched cards (such as Jacquard’s punched cards then being used to control complicated weaving on mechanical looms). This machine was also intended to employ several other features subsequently used in modern computers, including sequential control, branching, and looping, and would have been the first mechanical device to be Turing-complete. Augusta Ada King, Countess of Lovelace, wrote a program that would have calculated a sequence of Bernoulli numbers on this computer.

    In 1871, when Babbage died, this project was also incomplete.

    50 years of soooooo close.
    It would have moved up the Age of Computers by almost a century.


  37. 37
    ProfessorGordon

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:10 pm)

    Tagamet: OT: Just saw an ad for the Chrome browser here on the site. Does anyone know if it has a spell checker?
    TIA.Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Yes it does Tag.


  38. 38
    kdawg

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    “Not quite,” responded Weir. “But we are so close.”
    ————-

    I dunno, that just sounds so unprofessional. It’s like kids working in a lab on their school project… “We’re soooo close”. I guess i’m looking for something more quantifiable.


  39. 39
    nasaman

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:23 pm)

    Red HHR: Obviously this technology is so powerful it must be kept under wraps. If released it would destroy the oil industry, cause economic chaos, and destroy life as we know it.

    You’re joking, I know. But you’ve reminded me that, while EESTOR’s super capacitor may not be commercially viable for years (or decades) to come, it might be close to becoming MILITARILY practicable (since cost is often a minor factor in critical defense advancements). In fact, the first program I worked on for NASA was so important to the moon shot (Apollo program) that it was highly classified as well as assigned the highest military priority rating.

    The fact that the Air Force Research Lab’s Directed Energy Directorate (AFRL/RDH) and Sandia Labs are involved strongly suggests to me that the DOD may have classified the work they’re supporting (if any). And with the cloak of secrecy over any military-funded project Dick Weir and any other EESTOR or DOD people involved in it could risk going to prison by disclosing too much about it. We all need to at least be aware of this very real possibility.


  40. 40
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:24 pm)

    Truman: …In 1871, when Babbage died, this project was also incomplete.

    50 years of soooooo close.
    It would have moved up the Age of Computers by almost a century.

    If he was really smart, he’d have just invented the internet and Googled it. Last year a Swedish teenager made news by *continuing* to work on the problem (g).
    Nice portrait, Mr. President.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  41. 41
    Tagamet

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:30 pm)

    ProfessorGordon: Tagamet: OT: Just saw an ad for the Chrome browser here on the site. Does anyone know if it has a spell checker?
    TIA.Be well,
    Tagamet

    Yes it does Tag.

    Thank you, kind Sir.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  42. 42
    Tagamet

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    nasaman:… The fact that the Air Force Research Lab’s Directed Energy Directorate (AFRL/RDH) and Sandia Labs are involved strongly suggests to me that the DOD may have classified the work they’re supporting (if any). And with the cloak of secrecy over any military-funded project Dick Weir and any other EESTOR or DOD people involved in it could risk going to prison by disclosing too much about it. We all need to at least be aware of this very real possibility.

    If that was the case, wouldn’t EEStor just play the “Sorry, that’s classified” card? If nothing else, it’d take the heat off of them.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  43. 43
    ClarksonCote

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:48 pm)

    A few years back I called Richard Weir… He returned my phone call and invited me to come down to his place and learn about the technology. I think he thought I was an investor with a lot of money, whereas in reality I was hoping to build an electric car and showcase his technology for him in it.

    It’s quite possible that this technology will come to fruition and they’re just having a lot of difficulties perfecting it. It’s also possible that it’s as real as a perpetual motion machine. Time will tell and we’ll have to just STAY TUNED! 😉

    join thE REVolution


  44. 44
    Roy H

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:49 pm)

    nasaman: The fact that the Air Force Research Lab’s Directed Energy Directorate (AFRL/RDH) and Sandia Labs are involved strongly suggests to me that the DOD may have classified the work they’re supporting (if any). And with the cloak of secrecy over any military-funded project Dick Weir and any other EESTOR or DOD people involved in it could risk going to prison by disclosing too much about it. We all need to at least be aware of this very real possibility.  

    Tagamet has a very good point.
    But what happens to ZENN, are they just left to die?

    I know this possibility exists from reading about solid state high power lasers many years ago in Encyclopedia Britanica. A couple of years later I went to prove they existed to my prof. and looked it up in the then current edition, no mention at all.


  45. 45
    EVNow

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:51 pm)

    “I respect B and have emailed and spoken with him on numerous occasions.”

    Lyle, I’m surprised you say that. He seems to be a non-technical guy with all kinds of messianic ideas. The “core” team in eestory.com is also mostly AGW deniers and birthers. In other words, not the people I’d think who can rationally analyze the situation.

    One more thing is – EESU is supposed to have double the Li battery density. We all know NMC batteries that will be in Leaf gen 2 and similar new chemistry in Model S are already capable of doubling Li battery energy density. The batteries are also capable of high speed charging – Toshiba’s SCiB is already capable of 5 minute recharges.

    So, what is the big deal about EEStor, anyway … cost ?

    Nobody can tell how much EESU will cost – even if it is possible or up to spec. “nanocarbons” in eestory has effectively written as to why the cost of a possible EESU will be order of magnitude higher by comparing the EESU process to what Maxwell and others now use for capacitors.

    I do still have a speculative investment in ZNN – but the chances of anything worthwhile look bleak.


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    Roy H

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    Red HHR: Obviously this technology is so powerful it must be kept under wraps. If released it would destroy the oil industry, cause economic chaos, and destroy life as we know it.  

    I presume you are being sarcastic.


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    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:53 pm)

    Texas: the American people know nothing about technology.

    I’d venture that any investor with any sort of smarts wouldn’t invest in Zenn until something actually materializes. Just because they invested heavily in EEStor isn’t reason enough to plow your money into the company. The real company to invest in will be ESStor in the future. As far as investing in risky penny stocks if it were on the market, I would have put a small some of money into it. And then forget about it until something big happens. If I’ve done my homework correctly one out of five penny stocks would likely pay off.

    As far as having researched the science behind the EESU, it has already been done in a laboratory at an University. Many patients have already been issued along the way. It is just a question of engineering the machines needed to fabricate the components and then assembling them into the unit. As I have said before the science is there that backs the possibility of an EESU becoming factual. Lockheed-Martin would have examined the record to evaluate the science before considering entering into an agreement with EESTor. Today we see in the article that Sandia National Lab was also doing research to develop high energy capacitors. The Airforce is looking for a high energy storage device for laser weapons and the EESU would enable these weapons since it is also a light weight storage apparatus!

    There is also a new company, Recapping Inc., which is being funded by Advanced Research Agency Projects.Energy for development of High Energy Density Capacitors. This company is a direct competitor of EEStor. ZENN’s rights under its agreement with EEStor is limited to a portion of the EV automotive industry. Its use in the automotive industry is one of many possible applications. Baring any further delay because of engineering difficulties, which IMHO has been the cause of delays we have already seen, they are be far ahead of Recapping Inc.

    Don’t count them out yet!

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    B

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

    The capacitor is nearly finished. I’ll have more information for you all shortly.

    Regards,
    B


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    DonC

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (12:57 pm)

    I actually think EESTOR is close — to a prototype. What does this mean? There are lithium air batteries in prototype form but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for a production unit. Lots of difference between a prototype and something actually cost effective and useful.

    It does seem that every time Zenn is running out of money Weir pops his head out of his hiddie hole and makes a promise about delivering something real. Since his company is private he doesn’t incur any liability but Clifford gets a bump in funding for Zenn. Coincidence? Draw your own conclusions.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (1:05 pm)

    nasaman:
    You’re joking, I know. But you’ve reminded me that, while EESTOR’s super capacitor may not be commercially viable for years (or decades) to come, it might be close to becoming MILITARILY practicable (since cost is often a minor factor in critical defense advancements). In fact, the first program I worked on for NASA was so important to the moon shot (Apollo program) that it was highly classified as well as assigned the highest military priority rating.The fact that the Air Force Research Lab’s Directed Energy Directorate (AFRL/RDH) and Sandia Labs are involved strongly suggests to me that the DOD may have classified the work they’re supporting (if any). And with the cloak of secrecy over any military-funded project Dick Weir and any other EESTOR or DOD people involved in it could risk going to prison by disclosing too much about it. We all need to at least be aware of this very real possibility.  

    Yes, tongue was very firmly in cheek!
    However there is always the very slight possibility of it being real. And if it was…
    Oh My! what a disruption to the status queue we now know.
    Myself, I would not even invest the cost of a postage stamp. (would I?)

    Cheers


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (1:07 pm)

    Tagamet, #42: If that was the case, wouldn’t EEStor just play the “Sorry, that’s classified” card? If nothing else, it’d take the heat off of them.

    Good question, Tag. One reason NOT to play a “Sorry, that’s classified” card is the likelihood they want to keep possible future commercial users interested, yet not cut off all contact with them. For example, they may very well have non-automotive (stationary) versions of the invention under development that are suited to high-power laser, high-power microwave or even directed EMP applications. And they want to keep potential commercial users on the hook —it’s not uncommon for a company to use DOD money as a way to advance the possibility of commercial “spin-offs”— but they would need to be careful not to imply that’s their plan. And saying they’re doing classified work could in fact suggest they’re using government money for future commercial gain, which could in turn risk contract cancellation and/or severe financial penalties by the DOD.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (1:21 pm)

    Brewster: Assuming there is any truth at all to EESTOR, anybody any idea what problems they’re running into that’s causing the huge delay?

    EEStor is running up against a basic law of physics called “dielectric saturation”. All the published test results of their high dielectric constant was performed at just 1 Volt. They also show that their capacitor can withstand 3000V without breakdown. If there were no dielectric saturation then the implied energy storage potential would be real.

    *** What most people don’t understand is that the dielectric saturates at only 100 Volts or so, and charging the capacitor with an extra 3000V doesn’t add any appreciable extra energy storage. The whole scam is based on ignoring a fundamental law of physics that very few people are aware of.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (1:24 pm)

    In the words of Charlie Brown Lyle, “Good grief”.

    In edit mode now I apologize for my cryptic skepticism. Dear friend Lyle, if EESTOR had anything, they would not need a nickle from the gummint. Please. I think it discredits your wonderful gm-volt.com to give attention to their vaporous claims.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (1:24 pm)

    Intuitively I see KP hanging in. ( As it turns out, that is after the date of the memo shown, KP has cash to burn after HP’s takeover of an investment)

    A WAGuess is EEStor’s board approved a financing with price pending. Taking this memo at face value – the better the demo, the better the price. EEStor management had to walk a fine line as to how much to disclose in order to get the attention of the target testing facility – but not too much – just in case somebody got hold of the memo. Exactly what’s happened here. (This Administration’s tearing out their hair over highly classified docs getting out.)

    Whether EEStor’s technology is deemed to involve national security is a toughie. Its plausible. I don’t see that being the case-but its definitely on someone’s desk.

    The memo’s dated early July-a couple months gone by. Assuming a month to set up the tests and another few weeks for check out – we should be hearing something real soon.

    Its good to hear EEStor’s in hot pursuit of its goals.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    Thought for the day:

    slogan30.jpg


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    Jimza Skeptic

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (1:59 pm)

    doggydogworld:
    I’m confident the e-mail is real. B added the blue boxes himself. He didn’t want to subject a couple of generally anonymous civil servants to harassment. He’s also trying to work these people as sources and doesn’t want to make them mad.. You can do your own FOIA search, get your own hardcopies and reveal the redacted names to the world if you like.The only news from this is that years after saying mass production was “imminent” Dick Weir still does not have a working device. Tech startups all live by the same rule: “Demo or Die”. He died a long time ago. Is a resurrection imminent? You can never completely rule anything out, but don’t bet the 401k on it.  

    LOL… I agree the “Email” is real. It is the document shown in the email that appears fake. 😉 Baghead B as he goes by, said he & others, obtained the document via FOIA…. I have seen documents that come from FOIA and it looks nothing like one. Yes there are times when names are not blocked out, but if they are not blocked out, that means they are free to be published.

    Anyway this made my Sunday morning !!! 😉 And I know you are chuckling while you were typing up your response….


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    Red HHR: Obviously this technology is so powerful it must be kept under wraps. If released it would destroy the oil industry, cause economic chaos, and destroy life as we know it.  

    All from a little box that stores energy. Hey TV destroyed radio right? DVDs killed TV. Life as we know it addicted to petroleum defended by our young men and women in uniform.


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    Jimza Skeptic

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:08 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    It’s a sanitized copy of an email, not an agency document.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    And that would be fine if it was not an agency document. Except the article clearly states it was obtained via FOIA. IF it were a leaked email, then a picture like this would (cough, cough) be plausible. But again, FOIA documents do not look like this.

    On the other hand it could be that Lyle misunderstood the source. It really was not FOIA and was directly from a USAF leak. In that case I would think people might want to buy a bunch of Zenn stock (ZNN) and get ready to cash in! Be careful though, this might be considered inside information for on the stock market! LOLOLOL 😉


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:16 pm)

    Larry: EEStor is running up against a basic law of physics called “dielectric saturation”. All the published test results of their high dielectric constant was performed at just 1 Volt.

    “We have learned that constituent materials of EEStor’s energy storage system are operating in what’s known as the paralectric phase in contrast to the widely predicted ferroelectric phase.
    Dielectric Saturation was widely and emotionally delivered as the death knell to EEStor’s prospects for delivering on it’s claims. But this is a phenomena that does not occur in the paraelectric phase (except possibly at extremely high voltages).”

    Visit this link fo information:

    http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:EEStore#February_1.2C_2009

    look under “July 29, 2008”

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:26 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: Dielectric Saturation was widely and emotionally delivered as the death knell to EEStor’s prospects for delivering on it’s claims. But this is a phenomena that does not occur in the paraelectric phase (except possibly at extremely high voltages).”

    …and one, just one little prototype capacitor the size of a peanut would settle the issue beyond any possible doubt…

    Show me just one piece of documented evidence that their capacitor *actually* stores anything close to the claimed amount of energy at 3000 Volts!!!


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:35 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Thought for the day:  

    That would be a great motto for gm-volt.com!

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    doggydogworld

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:38 pm)

    Streetlight: KP has cash to burn after HP’s takeover of an investment

    That’s not how it works. Venture capitalists like KP have a bunch of different investment funds, much like Vanguard has a bunch of different mutual funds . Each fund is legally separate. Cash is not co-mingled between funds.

    Furthermore, cash received from an acquisition or IPO is usually not reinvested at all. It’s returned to the pension funds and rich individuals who put money into the fund. The funds have a limited lifespan, VCs generally try to have the companies they invest in either go public, get acquired or shut down within 6-7 years so they can wind the fund up.

    VC-funded companies typically follow a certain progression. Early funding rounds provide R&D money to develop prototypes and such. An early round company might have a couple dozen employees. Middle funding rounds are for scaling up the company, building a sales pipeline and adding a layer of middle management. Such companies might have a hundred employees. Later funding rounds can provide capital for manufacturing facilities and such, such companies typically have hundreds or even thousands of employees.

    Early rounds are typically a few million unless you have a proven CEO. Middle rounds are usually tens of millions and late rounds can be hundreds of millions. EEStor never got past the first round. Usually when this happens the company quickly runs out of cash and the VCs arrange a sale. EEStor found an alternate source of funding in Zenn and has hung on. I can almost guarantee KP hasn’t continued to give them money, though. That’s not how they operate. You either meet your milestones and progress to a 2nd funding round or you get cut off. From what Dick Weir says, EEStor got cut off.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:39 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic: (cough, cough)

    What are you (on) taking for that cough. I think your hallucinating! 😉

    Are you so sure your right about the FOIA release?

    http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/

    “Sunday, September 12, 2010
    Max Power in The Power Dome ”

    And visit frequently, to view more emails.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Slave to OPEC

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:50 pm)

    Hmmm. The end of gasoline and batteries.

    I don’t see it happening…


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:51 pm)

    Larry:
    …and one, just one little prototype capacitor the size of a peanut would settle the issue beyond any possible doubt…Show me just one piece of documented evidence that their capacitor *actually* stores anything close to the claimed amount of energy at 3000 Volts!!!  

    I wish that I could give you the link to when I first found out about the research done at a University on which Weir bases his EESU. I believe it was posted on Physics.org newsletter. There were some early tests done at the University Laboratory that supported the high voltage.

    Anyway, the link I sighted in my previous posts states:

    “The target working voltage of EEStor’s chemical processes is at 350 volts per micron. This provides the potential for excellent protection from voltage breakdown.”

    http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:EEStore#February_1.2C_2009

    And as B posted a while back; Be patient; More info to come!

    Read my other posts about EEStor’s competitor, Recapping Inc.

    And I do agree with you that seeing is believing. 😉

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (2:55 pm)

    This was a pathetic attempt at impersonation below. I am B. I’ve never called an EESU component “the capacitor.” Plus, I would never say “the capacitor is nearly finished” for a couple reasons. First, eesu components have been claimed to have already been completed and test data is referenced in EEStor patents. Second, EEStor has said EESU pre-production units are what we’re looking for next. These are EESU’s made in part or whole by EEStor’s pilot production line.

    B: The capacitor is nearly finished. I’ll have more information for you all shortly.Regards,
    B  


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (3:06 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic:
    LOL…I agree the “Email” is real.It is the document shown in the email that appears fake. Baghead B as he goes by, said he & others, obtained the document via FOIA….I have seen documents that come from FOIA and it looks nothing like one.Yes there are times when names are not blocked out, but if they are not blocked out, that means they are free to be published.
    Anyway this made my Sunday morning !!! And I know you are chuckling while you were typing up your response….  

    As mentioned, the names have been redacted by me and tom villars for the reasons I stated previously–courtesy. As for what FOIA responses look like in general, that varies by govt agency and type and nature of document. The idea that all documents released by FOIA requests look the same is….a fake idea.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (3:12 pm)

    LRGVProVolt:
    What are you (on) taking for that cough. I think your hallucinating!
    Are you so sure your right about the FOIA release?http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/“Sunday, September 12, 2010
    Max Power in The Power Dome ”
    And visit frequently, to view more emails.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    WOW, you have convinced me! I need to seriously look at Zenn stock. 😉


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    Money Pit

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (3:13 pm)

    Its always been a scam, any EE knows this, I’m really surprised Lyle with 8+ years of schooling would falls for this hook, line and sinker. His articles are single handily going to cost a few people a couple hundred thousand with a little pump in dump …

    It never ceases to amazes me how gullible people are .. We will see perpetual motions decades before we have 3000V EESU caps


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (3:25 pm)

    I general seems either EEStor has a hugely successful prototype that might be of great strategic importance and a classified secret or there’s no real prototype and no real story. I don’t know which but I’m tending to think it’s closer to the latter. No hardware, maybe good theory and experimental data or maybe it’s all vaporware.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic:
    WOW,you have convinced me! I need to seriously look at Zenn stock.   

    I hope you realize I was joking about the cough. In a previous post, I stated that it wouldn’t be ZENN that I would invest in. That still holds true; unless they show that OEMs are interested in their drive train, I wouldn’t put more than a few pennies into their stock. EEStor would be a different case if they were on the stock market. I wasn’t trying to convince anyone into buying ZENN stock. My comments were made only to overcome the skepticism being posted.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
    Good luck with an investment in ZENN. 😉


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (3:56 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: …I wasn’t trying to convince anyone into buying ZENN stock. My comments were made only to overcome the skepticism being posted…

    Well, you know Jim’s a skeptic…. (g)

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (3:59 pm)

    Hi #62 doggydogworld: Thanks for the informative post. Insofar as the cash to burn comment, I stand to be corrected as being pretty much aware of VC policy having (in Silicon Valley) had my first company VC financed in the Stone Age (c. 1974). A couple of the KP partners very much knew my seed backer. (However, they were not a second rounder-but could well have been in later on) So you all understand why EEStor has my deepest empathies.

    After I was bought out – a second (wholly unrelated to the first) in 1985 with so-called ‘Angel Capital’. Both turned out OK – but in much different ways.

    On the belief KP will hang in – sure I’ve not seen anything either way – but intuitively I will stand on. (So readers know VC’s don’t throw the stuff around – It took 4 years for me to do the 1st VC deal. The second took 2+ years.)

    I tried to Google KP about EEStor (and Zenn) and came up empty.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (3:59 pm)

    Tagamet:
    Well, you know Jim’s a skeptic…. (g)Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Hey Tag. I wasn’t even thinking of that! lol 🙂

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (4:20 pm)

    Streetlight: Hi #62 doggydogworld: )
    I tried to Google KP about EEStor (and Zenn) and came up empty.  

    http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Green-Kingpins-Pt-3-VC-John-Doerr-of-KPCB/

    http://theeestory.com/articles/62

    Just a few that I got with “KP EEStor”.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Unni

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (5:15 pm)

    Look at electric lamps :

    incandescent , fluorescent , CFL and now LED where LED uses 2watts instead of 100 watts.

    Same we expect from batteries also, I expect that also to go towards the semiconductor storages like ultra capacitors.

    I don’t expect eestor to put a full finished product but even if they come with a laptop battery
    replacement, we can just it just by putting 6800 together to power EVs. So we need a base laptop replacement battery demo.

    The next similar move may be electric motors and i am sure future will have a 60watt electric car near to an incandescent lamb saying both needs same power to work for an hour.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (5:41 pm)

    Meanwhile, back at camp reality, real progress is being made….

    Credible sources telling us EV batteries are, or very soon will be, below the $400/kwh mark.

    In the right application this will compete with $3 gas — no magic beans required.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (5:53 pm)

    Hmmm… buy some Zenn; pump EESTOR to get a spike in Zen; sell and short the Zenn…

    It might work.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (5:56 pm)

    carcus3: Meanwhile, back at camp reality, real progress is being made….Credible sources telling us EV batteries are, or very soon will be, below the $400/kwh mark. In the right application this will compete with $3 gas — no magic beans required.  (Quote)

    At that price, it starts to look attractive as temp storage on the grid.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (6:32 pm)

    Concerned about Dick Weir’s LIES:
    http://conceredabouteestorlies.blogspot.com/


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (6:36 pm)

    Unni: Look at electric lamps :incandescent , fluorescent , CFL and now LED where LED uses 2watts instead of 100 watts.Same we expect from batteries also, I expect that also to go towards the semiconductor storages like ultra capacitors.I don’t expect eestor to put a full finished product buteven if they come with a laptop battery
    replacement, we can justit just by putting 6800together to power EVs. So we need a base laptop replacement battery demo.The next similar move may be electric motors andi am sure future will have a 60watt electric car near to an incandescent lamb saying both needs same power to work for an hour.  

    Yes, lots to come with battery improvements. Check out Planar’s solid state battery.
    http://www.planarenergy.com/

    Can’t compare bulbs to electric motors. Incandescent bulbs are horribly inefficient, hence the huge improvement going to LEDs. Electric motors in professionally built cars like the Volt, Tesla etc. are already 85% to 98% efficient (depending on speed and load, highest efficiency near full load). Even a 100% efficient motor will not be much of a gain. Better controllers will get high efficiency at low speeds and loads, not necessarily better motors.


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    Loboc

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (6:57 pm)

    I’m from Missouri. (literally) I believe things I can see and measure.

    Unicorns – not so much. At least I’ve seen artist’s renderings.
    Volt – Yep, saw one on Fox news. (my Missourian threshold is lower than some)
    EESU – not so much.
    Tesla S – not so far.

    Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three “laws” of prediction:

    1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is probably wrong.
    2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
    3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (6:58 pm)

    Since we were running steam locomotives not too long ago (in the time line of evolution it’s not even a breath) it’s amazingly close minded to ever doubt any new possibilities.


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    JohnK

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (7:10 pm)

    /Breakingnews – the http://www.MyVolt.com website seems to be active. I would say “fully active”, but I can’t speak to what GM has in mind for “fully”. I don’t see anything that lets you track your order status, though.


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    canehdian

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (7:19 pm)

    Roy H: Yes infinite cycles and minimal losses does sound appealing, but what is the practical value? If you have a 50kwh battery and charge is every day for 10 years then it will have gone through 3650 cycles giving you about 200 miles per day or 730k miles total. A123 has claimed up to 8000 cycles. Is infinite really necessary?

    If you could have a car that could last 20-30 years and still function like new (provided regular maintenance, tires, brakes, etc), why wouldn’t you want that?

    Keep in mind that batteries may have ‘up to’ 8000 cycles, but batteries rely on chemistry and are ticking time bombs the second they roll off the line.
    A li-ion battery never used until years after production does not have 100% life in it.
    It has slowly depreciated and will never give full capacity, even though it has never been used since production.
    After 10 years of never being used, you’d have li-ions that still worked, sure. But they wouldn’t be giving anywhere near full capacity.
    Add in a few hundred or thousand cycles along the way and you’re further reducing their capacity.

    Solid state storage doesn’t suffer from this effect unless there is physical damage.
    This is why eestor is such a huge deal if it actually comes to fruition.
    Even if it cost more, that could be worth it to have a power storage system that could last theoretically forever.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (7:44 pm)

    Unni: Look at electric lamps :incandescent , fluorescent , CFL and now LED where LED uses 2watts instead of 100 watts.Same we expect from batteries also, I expect that also to go towards the semiconductor storages like ultra capacitors.I don’t expect eestor to put a full finished product buteven if they come with a laptop battery
    replacement, we can justit just by putting 6800together to power EVs. So we need a base laptop replacement battery demo.The next similar move may be electric motors andi am sure future will have a 60watt electric car near to an incandescent lamb saying both needs same power to work for an hour.  

    LED’s using 2 watts instead of 100 is totally wrong. LEDs are not that efficient. Right now LEDs are about as efficient as linear fluorescent . That ‘s a very high end LED which is much more expensive than fluorescent. I priced a LED to replace a $200 fluorescent and the LED cost $1500.
    A little knowledge is dangerous sometimes and how false information spreads.
    LEDs are gaining popularity but they do have drawbacks. ie: LEDs do not like heat whereas incandescent lamps can be placed in your oven. A led cannot be put in your oven. LEDs still have not gotten to be serious competition for fluorescent. They may in the future .. but it doesn’t look like any time soon. Seems to be the same for capacitors as storage devices… they are promising but have not made the theories reality.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (7:53 pm)

    One of 2 bad outcomes will result from the EEStor saga.

    A: The unit will be tested by a public lab and the data will be published indicating only a marginal improvement over current battery technology. The company will go belly up, and the patent’s will be sold to a foreign entity, most likely Chinese.

    B: The test results will never be made public. EEStor will go belly up. Conspiracy theorists will go nuts telling anybody who will listen that the all powerful U. S. government, with their big oil backers, squashed the technology to keep the price of oil up.

    Take you pick……..


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (7:59 pm)

    I find myself in an odd position about EEStor. I don’t disbelieve the science. I don’t understand it, but in general I believe that a lot of things are possible and EEStor capacitors falls into that category. What I have a problem with is EEStor’s behavior. It has all the earmarks of a scam the more I study it. Zero evidence of an operational device. All “proofs” on close examination could be faked. So that still leaves me with the possibility it is true, but an extreme distrust, based on how it has been presented. And this email? A phone call certainly could have been made by DW, as yet another leak to pump ZENN stock. Was there or will there be a real demonstration? Or just a statement that there was a mis-understanding, and no demonstration was agreed upon. Only time will tell.


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    mikeinatl.

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:26 pm)

    EEStor article.

    Quick glance at my calendar.

    Nope, not April 1st.

    Hmmm.


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    Texas

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:34 pm)

    I’m also waiting for EEstor… Waiting for the criminal trial!


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:46 pm)

    solo: One of 2 bad outcomes will result from the EEStor saga.
    A: The unit will be tested by a public lab and the data will be published indicating only a marginal improvement over current battery technology.The company will go belly up, and the patent’s will be sold to a foreign entity, most likely Chinese.B: The test results will never be made public.EEStor will go belly up.Conspiracy theorists will go nuts telling anybody who will listen that the all powerful U. S. government, with their big oil backers, squashed the technology to keep the price of oil up.Take you pick……..  

    “C” EEStor will demonstrate a spectaularly successful product which will be universally accepted and immediately applied to the electrification of transportation.
    Hey, it’s just as possible as “A” and “B”.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Peter M

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:46 pm)

    Vincent: Since we were running steam locomotives not too long ago (in the time line of evolution it’s not even a breath) it’s amazingly close minded to ever doubt any new possibilities.  

    The laws of physics applied to the period before steam locomotives, during the industrial revolution and today. I only doubt new possibilities when they are impossible. 2+2 will never equal 5 and a 60 watt engine will never provide enough energy to move 5 passengers.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:53 pm)

    canehdian: If you could have a car that could last 20-30 years and still function like new (provided regular maintenance, tires, brakes, etc), why wouldn’t you want that?

    Of course I would want that. I was just pointing out that this invention is not the great break-through some portray it to be. 30 year life for a car is a reasonable goal, and I was pointing out that future generations of batteries could reach that goal. If EEStor does this cheaper, with higher energy density, then yes go for it. However if it is more expensive and heavier, how much would you be willing to pay for “infinite” life vs 20 years? My point is cheaper and lighter is not a given.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (8:56 pm)

    Peter M: Vincent: Since we were running steam locomotives not too long ago (in the time line of evolution it’s not even a breath) it’s amazingly close minded to ever doubt any new possibilities.

    The laws of physics applied to the period before steam locomotives, during the industrial revolution and today. I only doubt new possibilities when they are impossible. 2+2 will never equal 5 and a 60 watt engine will never provide enough energy to move 5 passengers.

    I agree, but would add the caveat that the “Laws of Physics” (or at least our understanding of them) evolve. Dark matter existed before we knew of it’s existence, etc.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    ClarksonCote

     

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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:03 pm)

    MyVolt.com is live!

    join thE REVolution


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (9:44 pm)

    The Wikipedia stats on the EESU energy density look to be not all that different than what Panasonic is promising for 2012. EESU offers 385 Wh/kg and 700 Wh/L, Panasonic says 275 Wh/kg and 800 Wh/L. Just like the Cruze shell, the 1.4L genset, and the 100kW/kg battery chemistry, there are some things you trust to be there in 3 years when you’re promising a mass market car.

    Also, in the absence of a widely distributed fast charging network, the capacitor based solution is still subject to “range anxiety”.


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    Sep 12th, 2010 (11:46 pm)

    pjkPA:
    LED’s using 2 watts instead of 100 is totally wrong.LEDs are not that efficient.Right now LEDs are about as efficient as linear fluorescent . That ’s a very high end LED which is much more expensive than fluorescent. I priced a LED to replace a $200 fluorescent and the LED cost $1500.

    Hi I never said LED is priced below fluorescent and seems lot research in progress but i do believe it will replace. The intention was to show the progress.

    OK changed the examples to televisions : CRT: Rear projection : Plasma , LCD : LED

    We made a lot of progress and same path will happen in batteries also. Seems Lithium – ion is some where near the plasma,LCD era which faded very fast.

    Roy H:
    Yes, lots to come with battery improvements. Check out Planar’s solid state battery.
    http://www.planarenergy.com/

    Thanks for the link, I think sakthi3 also has solid state battery. I sounds more like LCD-Plasma TV era.


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    Sep 13th, 2010 (5:04 am)

    What is the Volt and who is it for?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h76YuGLv0Do

    In this explanation the ICE sends generated power to the battery. Not to the electric motor. This is good news as it allows the ICE to rest (idle?) during battery discharge. If the total buffer is 20%. And if 1/2 the total capacity of the T battery is actually used.

    20% x 40 miles range = 8 miles of rest time per 40 mile cycle

    40 miles (no ICE) + 32 miles (full ICE @ 32 mpg?) + 8 miles (no ICE).

    1 gallon used during the first 80 miles of non-stop driving. 2 gallons used during the first 120 miles of non-stop driving. 3 gallons in 160 miles. 4 gallons in 200 miles. 5 gallons in 240 miles. 6 gallons in 280 miles (46.7 mpg for 280 non-stop miles?).

    Not sure if these numbers are valid. But it’s very possible. No rest period during mountain mode? 72 miles (40 battery + 40 miles less 8 miles rest). 72 @ 1 gallon under load?

    =D-Volt


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    Sep 13th, 2010 (5:10 am)

    B: The capacitor is nearly finished. I’ll have more information for you all shortly.Regards,B  (Quote)

    nearly?

    B, please……!


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    Sep 13th, 2010 (5:18 am)

    I’m late to this one.
    My first impression was: OMG!!

    Then I started thinking. To me, EESTOR has about zero credibility.

    From the article:
    For those who aren’t up on this story, the EESU is a low-priced solid-state capacitor/battery hybrid device that would be several times as power and energy dense as lithium ion cells and therefore much more compact and lightweight. It could be recharged in 5 minutes and experience essentially no degradation over time. To boot it would be several times less expensive than lithium-cells and made out of readily available barite which is found in great abundance in the US. It is the holy grail of electric cars.

    This is something we so desperately need, yet it sounds like a fantasy.
    If true, the applications are endless. But we have been fooled too many times by EESTOR.
    I will take the wait and see approach.

    I sincerely hope they are real, but I doubt it at this point.


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    Sep 13th, 2010 (5:29 am)

    B: The capacitor is nearly finished. I’ll have more information for you all shortly.Regards,
    B  

    B, is that the same thing as saying, “It’s just around the corner.”? 😉

    Stay well. Very interesting post.


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    Bob

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (5:37 am)

    So by “has just invited” you mean “invited 2 months ago?” If that email was dated July 8, then wouldn’t this demonstration probably have already happened by now?


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    Sep 13th, 2010 (5:43 am)

    eestorblog:
    As mentioned, the names have been redacted by me and tom villars for the reasons I stated previously–courtesy.As for what FOIA responses look like in general, that varies by govt agency and type and nature of document. The idea that all documents released by FOIA requests look the same is….a fake idea.  

    Ummmm They will not look the same from the stand point of the document, because they are releasing a copy of the original document. You make a true statement sir. What I am talking about is that every FOIA document I have seen from various agencies, has several stamps over it saying copy, and approved for release, with whoever released it, initials/signature, etc. I have seen as little as two stampings and as many as five. I am sure every agency has their own stamps and procedures. I just don’t see them on your document thats all. 😉


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    Eco_Turbo

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (6:18 am)

    Given the limited number of sites where such ideas can be presented, I guess it is inevitable that this site will occasionally be used for stock price manipulation.


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    Sep 13th, 2010 (6:34 am)

    Rashiid Amul: I’m late to this one.
    My first impression was: OMG!!

    Then I started thinking. To me, EESTOR has about zero credibility.

    Good morning, Rashiid.

    I saw this last night and thought of you:

    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/09/10/car-climed-mt-washingtonvery-quickly/

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/3909003/this-car-climbed-mount-washington

    Have a nice day. 🙂


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    Charlie H

     

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (6:40 am)

    Bob: So by “has just invited” you mean “invited 2 months ago?” If that email was dated July 8, then wouldn’t this demonstration probably have already happened by now?  (Quote)

    It seems the EESU also functions as a flux capacitor, so Dick Weir can travel back and forth in time to deliver party invitations.


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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    Red HHR: Obviously this technology is so powerful it must be kept under wraps. If released it would destroy the oil industry, cause economic chaos, and destroy life as we know it.  

    Sounds like a good time. Where’s the downside?


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    Aunt B

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (10:19 am)

    Hi everyone! I know something you don’t know. Nah nah na na nah.

    That’s my Private Placement Memorandum. Would you like to invest now?


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    DRP

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (10:20 am)

    Mike-o-Matic: Sounds like a good time. Where’s the downside?  (Quote)

    It doesn’t exist.
    It’s easy to make bold claims when you don’t have a product.


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    Sep 13th, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    Rob: Most likely it will power military lasers.

    Or rail guns.

    Team up a half-dozen rail guns with something EESU-like, add in a BFR or LFTR on a warship, and you’ve really got somethin’.


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    BiodieselJeep

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (1:44 pm)

    Patient: “I keep hearing things, names and voices, but my friends tell me they aren’t real.”

    Doctor: “Just what do you hear?”

    Patient: “It sounds like a donkey braying. It says ‘Eeee Stoooor, Eeee Stooor’ and then some guy starts talking about investing. What does it mean?”

    Doctor: “Hmm, I wouldn’t worry about it. Meanwhile, let me tell you about this great opportunity I have concerning a bridge; it connects two vital boroughs in New York and it is a sure thing, I want you to get on it immediately. Where is your checkbook?”


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    Eestorblog

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (2:52 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic:
    UmmmmThey will not look the same from the stand point of the document, because they are releasing a copy of the original document.You make a true statement sir.What I am talking about is that every FOIA document I have seen from various agencies, has several stamps over it saying copy, and approved for release, with whoever released it, initials/signature, etc.I have seen as little as two stampings and as many as five.I am sure every agency has their own stamps and procedures.I just don’t see them on your document thats all.   

    You sound like someone who has never filed a FOIA request before. There are no regulations requiring the stamping you are suggesting is universal. Yes, stamps can some times be used as when a document is declassified or stamped approved for public release. BUt that is the exception not the rule.

    check out an electronic reading room of a few agencies….


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    hercule

     

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    Sep 13th, 2010 (9:02 pm)

    Loboc: I’m from Missouri. (literally) I believe things I can see and measure. Unicorns – not so much. At least I’ve seen artist’s renderings.Volt – Yep, saw one on Fox news. (my Missourian threshold is lower than some)EESU – not so much.Tesla S – not so far.Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three “laws” of prediction:1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is probably wrong.2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.  (Quote)

    However, Isaac Asimov wrote a corollary to Clarke’s First Law, stating: “When, however, the lay public rallies round an idea that is denounced by distinguished but elderly scientists and supports that idea with great fervor and emotion — the distinguished but elderly scientists are then, after all, probably right”.


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    Sep 13th, 2010 (9:24 pm)

    Peter M:
    The laws of physics applied to the period before steam locomotives, during the industrial revolution and today.I only doubt new possibilities when they are impossible.2+2 will never equal 5 and a 60 watt engine will never provide enough energy to move 5 passengers.  

    you are a perfect example of a closed and very limited mind. As if you have the definitive definition on the laws of physics.
    Your stuck on a planet in the middle of who knows where. Such an experience base. Why yes that’s right your a single grain of sand on an endless beach. You must know it all.

    Small clue. They have had small ‘black boxes” on Submarines for years that put out more than they take in. Ohms law does not apply.


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    dwwbkw

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    Sep 14th, 2010 (1:50 am)

    nasaman: You’re joking, I know. But you’ve reminded me that, while EESTOR’s super capacitor may not be commercially viable for years (or decades) to come, it might be close to becoming MILITARILY practicable (since cost is often a minor factor in critical defense advancements). In fact, the first program I worked on for NASA was so important to the moon shot (Apollo program) that it was highly classified as well as assigned the highest military priority rating.The fact that the Air Force Research Lab’s Directed Energy Directorate (AFRL/RDH) and Sandia Labs are involved strongly suggests to me that the DOD may have classified the work they’re supporting (if any). And with the cloak of secrecy over any military-funded project Dick Weir and any other EESTOR or DOD people involved in it could risk going to prison by disclosing too much about it. We all need to at least be aware of this very real possibility.  (Quote)

    Having been involved in similar programs during my working career, I agree completely with your observation. As the DOD has become more involved in developments at EESTOR, it is no surprise to me that less and less information is being divulged. We have no idea how much money is being funneled into EESTOR or where the state of development is at. I would assume that LM is a convenient conduit between the DOD and EESTOR. Dick Weir has quieted down a lot since LM got involved. None of the other parties are saying much either. This capacitor may not turn out as hoped, but the cost of it’s development at this stage is peanuts to the DOD.


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    Sep 14th, 2010 (5:44 am)

    Rob: Let’s face it – even if EESU works, it will not power electric cars. The technology has too much national security significance to go to private use. Most likely it will power military lasers.

    You’re exactly right. The company is called Laser Energetics. The military currently use lasers to clear streets during night patrol. And to daze groups of people during crowd control. It’s effective, non lethal, and causes no permanent injury. Unlike bullets or falls while being tased.

    =D-Volt


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    Sep 14th, 2010 (6:09 pm)

    Vincent: you are a perfect example of a closed and very limited mind. As if you have the definitive definition on the laws of physics.Your stuck on a planet in the middle of who knows where. Such an experience base. Why yes that’s right your a single grain of sand on an endless beach. You must know it all. Small clue. They have had small ‘black boxes” on Submarines for years that put out more than they take in. Ohms law does not apply.  (Quote)

    Sorry, your point is not valid. His assertion is true by definition. If any EXOTIC ENGINE (powered by anything you like) produced enough power to move a mass that included 5 human passengers, then by definition that engine wold be rated as outputting more than 60 watts.

    This is true regardless whether you are talking about some engine driven by an eestor “battery/ultracpacitator” or an ICE.

    If you are going to call someone small-minded, at least please by correct.


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    Sep 14th, 2010 (8:12 pm)

    Eestorblog, How much do you get paid by Dick Weir?


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    Sep 15th, 2010 (8:10 am)

    Lyle, when it comes to Zenn/EEStor, you’re serving the role of “useful idiot” to pump shares of ZNN. You should at least follow up to see if there is any merit to the supposed facts presented by the eestory, or at least investigate the circumstances of their collection and dissemination.


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    Sep 15th, 2010 (8:42 am)

    FOIA the FOIA…. Nothing secrete about it, just request a copy of the FOIA sent to B.


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    kent beuchert

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    Sep 16th, 2010 (9:04 pm)

    Skepticism can be a useful position on many things – UFO’s spring to mind. But if this story
    is factual, then I would suggest that EESTor is, in fact, close to reality. I’ve noted in the past that
    a cheap, quickly rechargeable and very lightweight and powerful electrical storage unit like EEStor promises, would quickly make all non-electric forms of propulsion immediately obsolete. To be open, I own shares of ZENN Motors, solely as a Las Vegas style bet on EEStor. I bought it as much
    for moral support as anything else, since I have no more info on whether the device will work than anyone else. It would , as anyone can see, also make the Volt totally obsolete as well and GM can view all the money it spent as more or less wasted. If battery technology could not be measureably improved over its current state, then the Volt is the best choice. But even if EEStor fails to deliver, there is the very real prospect of MIT’s slippery surface technology, now licensed to a battery developer corporation. While it is uncertain as to whether this technology , in addition to providing enormous increases in the ability to move electrons in and out of a lithion ion battery also provides extended lifespan and reduced weight (which it very well may not do), it would
    also be a big step forward, possibly big enough to hasten the demise of non-electric propulsion.
    But the impact of a working EEStor would have far more ramifications than just propulsion. It would represent a viable means of cheaply storing electricity, which would have enormous benefits
    for solar power, in particular. Wind power is a losing technology and wouldn’t be affected much one way or the other. Practically everthing runs on electricity, and yet we still don’t have an easy and cheap way to store it. But maybe we do now. Let’s hope so.


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    Sep 17th, 2010 (10:14 am)

    kent beuchert:
    But the impact of a working EEStor would have far more ramifications than just propulsion. It would represent a viable means of cheaply storing electricity, which would have enormous benefits
    for solar power, in particular. Wind power is a losing technology and wouldn’t be affected much one way or the other. Practically everthing runs on electricity, and yet we still don’t have an easy and cheap way to store it. But maybe we do now. Let’s hope so.  

    If, If, If. Thank you for your comment. We have been hearing about the BS impact of EESCAM for the last ten years. It’s easy to make bold claims when you don’t have a product. Good luck with your investment in Zenn, at least you know you have a blogger with a bag over his head who is a paid agent for EESTor.
    http://conceredabouteestorlies.blogspot.com/


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    Sep 25th, 2010 (10:10 am)

    Eestorblog:
    You sound like someone who has never filed a FOIA request before. There are no regulations requiring the stamping you are suggesting is universal. Yes, stamps can some times be used as when a document is declassified or stamped approved for public release.BUt that is the exception not the rule.
    check out an electronic reading room of a few agencies….  

    You are correct, I personally have never filed a request. That said our company (which makes thin film laminates with printed circuits for the solar industry regularly file or requests. We are constantly looking for information on competitors, customers and opportunities that benefit us. We go to the DOEnergy, DODefense, NASA as well as NOAA and several others on a regular basis. I have seen well over 500 documents in the last 5 years alone. And not once was it free of some sort of stamp of approval. In some cases, nothing was “blacked Out” and in other cases so much was deleted it became an office puzzle to fill in the blanks.

    I am just saying if you want people to really believe it, you need to publish the whole document. Until then, I will remain a “Skeptic”. BTW, I have not seen the other plethora of documents you were going to post. What happened to them?