Brad Berman is the editor of Hybridcars.com and Plugincars.com. He apparently had the chance to experience firsthand filling up a Chevy Volt with gas and was told and wrote about how the car manages rare gas and generator use.
Of course we hope filling up the Volt’s tank will be a rare and minimally utilized occurrence. The idea is of course to carry out as much driving as possible on electricity. The tank, and generator, are there for those rare trips that must go beyond the electric range, and to prevent anxiety.
What makes the gas tank and fill-up process so unique in the Volt is ties to the fact that gas will be so rarely used. It must be kept from going stale, and the engine must occasionally be cycled to keep parts lubricated so that they don’t seize.
First, to release the gas nozzle inlet says Berman, the driver must touch a small gas release button on the driver’s door, hard to see, but right above the electric charging door release button.
After pressing the button there is a mandatory wait period signalled on the dashboard screen. During the wait, a vacuum pump decompresses the pressurized tank and pumps vapors into a “carbon canister.” This is a specialized system that normally keeps the gas tank sealed under pressure to prevent seepage of water and other factors that might lead to stale gas.
The car’s computer is always monitoring the gas situation. It knows how long its been since gas was last placed in as well as when the last time the engine was run. It also knows if you open the gas door but don’t actually fill up and even monitors the temperature of the gas to ensure it isnt “cooking.”
The car, of course needs to know all this because after a ceratin period of time the risk of gas going stale increases and the engine needs a cycling.
At that certain point, if fuel hasn’t been burned, the car will display a message encouraging the driver to drive beyond the EV range and let the generator go on. The driver can apparently ignore the warning but after two times the car will “take matters into its own hands,” writes Berman. This means the Volt will start its generator to burn some fuel, lubricate the mechnical parts, and “pressurize the engine system.”
After completing this “engine and fuel maintenance mode,” the gnerator shuts off allowing the car to go back into pure EV operation, until the next time some gas needs to be burned.
Source (Plugincars)
+13
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:29 am)The Volt is definitely going to be a new driving experience. I’m hearing of things I never even thought of!
+10
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:32 am)When I hear things like this I really believe they have a winner on their hands! Well thought out!
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:37 am)wow late night post by Lyle!
+6
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:45 am)It’s truly a wonderful thing to be worrying about having to burn gas. As they say, not a bad problem to have. It’s also great that the engineers have seemingly developed a well thought out solution for this “not bad to have problem”.
+42
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:01 am)For those who will use little gas, it’s nice to know this is managed for you. The engineers have gone to great lengths to make this new technology as worry free as possible.
How about a limerick folks?
Don’t fret that the gas will go bad
If your drive uses gas just a tad
The Volt will take care
of the old gas that’s there
So just drive and make EREV a fad!
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:35 am)Off topic: Will the Volt phone ap include a list of GMV-friendly charge points?
When you voice “Starbucks” via GPS, over a dozen locations will display listing the distance from the search point. It will be just as easy to add a Volt friendly network. These can range from 120V outlets in owner driveways. To State operated 240V access charging available for RV’s or general public use. Also places of business that are willing to exchange a 50 cent charge for the opportunity to sell food or goods to the driver and passengers of EV’s. I believe this network will grow quickly. Fueled by Volts, Leafs, and EV Focus.
On the topic of stale gas: Will anyone be stubborn enough to ignor a driver alert display requesting 10 minutes of driving on liquid fuel? 95% of Volt drivers will normally use small amounts of liquid fuel each month. My normal driving pattern will use 1-3 gallons per month.
=D-Volt
+9
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:43 am)When battery technology has progressed to point where a car can RELIABLY get over 200 miles EV range – THEN I and many others will be glad to give up the extra security, cost, and complexity of the gas range extender.
Until then, however, it is good that GM has put so much work into making sure the Volt will “take care of itself” and run the engine often enough to keep things lubricated and keep the gas from going stale – without requiring the driver to do more than is required by a ‘conventional car’.
+6
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:46 am)Should I give this a +1 because it’s clever, or a -1 because it’s corny… I’m torn
+5
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:56 am)I wonder just how long it takes for the gas to go stale. I think the lubrication issue is going to happen a lot sooner than gas going stale as I’ve kept gas in the garage for years in a non pressurized gas can and it still seems to be as gassy as gasoline ever is when I run it in the lawn mower or pressure washer or what have you. Incidentally I have also left a car sitting without running for about 9 months while I was away at school one time and besides the battery being dead, it seemed to run fine. One time I even let a car sit for 2 years without even running it while I was out of the country, and it still ran (I believe it had a dead battery too), although that car wasn’t a happy camper after a long hibernation. I wonder what the Volt would do if you left it sitting in the side yard for a year or something like I did to those cars. I’m assuming it doesn’t run the engine unless the car is actually driving, otherwise people freak out having their car start spontaneously, especially if it was in the driveway.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (2:05 am)200 miles is still nowhere near enough to go on a trip, especially with the slow charging times of even the fastest charging station. But for people who commute a long distance, like 100 miles a day, then they will definitely feel better. Those people are definitely in the minority though. For everyone else (and even them for that matter), the extra miles of range would be a lot of money and weight for little or no benefit.
Sep 10th, 2010 (4:44 am)Friday September 10, 2010, 4:26 am EDT
BANGKOK (AP) — Oil prices climbed to near $76 a barrel Friday in Asia as better economic indicators from Japan to the U.S. boosted confidence that demand for fuel will improve.
=D-Volt
…just how long it takes for the gas to go stale? The answer is 4 to 6 six months in a fixed container. Sloshing keeps gasoline fresh longer.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/28/2011-chevrolet-volt-requires-premium-gas-yup/
Sep 10th, 2010 (4:49 am)I just found the official advertisement section of Chevrolet.com for the Volt here it is enjoy.
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do
+5
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:01 am)GM seems to think it takes about a year for the gas to go bad (and the engine needs to run for lubrication every 6 weeks) one of the comments on the original source link is from a GM tech and he goes into more detail, here it is:
“VinceP (not verified) · 1 day ago
Hello- I’m a GM tech who just completed some training on the LUU 1.4l engine that will be in the Volt. to Tom- I asked that same question regarding how much fuel would be burned during a fuel maintenance mode and the answer I got was that the Volt’s computer systems calculate the average age of the fuel in the tank, If the average age reaches roughly 1 year, the engine will burn the stale fuel and “prompt a refueling event” in other words, run it out or close to out of gas. That is “Fuel Mantenance” mode. If the engine goes roughly 6 weeks without starting, then it will enter “Engine maintenance mode” and run for about 10 minutes to keep everything lubricated inside the engine. Given that, I wold imagine it to be pretty rare to have the average age of the fuel in the tank be over 1 year. I’m sure all of this is subject to change, but this is how we GM techs were recently taught.”
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:05 am)Corvetteman could you verify this with one of your techs?
Fuel Maintenance Mode, and Engine Maintenance Mode.. and while you are at it find out what the compression ratio is, its time to settle if the Volt is using an atkinson cycle engine.. but GM will not call it that, they use a different name for that cycle in their 2 Mode hybrids.
I would also like to know about the oil change interval.
+4
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:16 am)I would be VERY happy with a 200 mile hwy range driving at 55mph, followed by a 30 minutes fast charge to 80% for another 160 miles of range.. sheez take a break after driving 200 miles, get out and stretch your legs
I mentioned 55mph because that may mean a battery pack size of 35kwh or so with an efficient BEV, hopefully that will be a $7k pack soon. Also a 0-60 time of 15 seconds is fine for me, so we are not talking about anything exceptional here in terms of tech or cost. Such a large pack would easily last 15-20 years under common eveyday 40 mile commutes.
Obviously this would require fast L3 charging stations in hwy rest stops.. a good thing for the Feds to spend money on.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:25 am)Note that the tech was talking about the “average” age of the gas.. that means the Volt may never go into Gas Maintenance Mode if you use some gas once in a while.. perhaps about 3 gallons a year would do. The other way to do it is not to fill up the gas tank, as I believe GM recommends.
GM is being very conservative, and they should be.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:39 am)I’ll bet that they only put a few gallons in the gas tank referenced in the article, just so that the gas tank volume stays a mystery! (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:03 am)How about 400 miles and 10 minute charge? But you are on the right track.
Hopefully it won’t be too long when we don’t have to worry about gas at all.
+15
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:10 am)I will let you know the tank size in March if no one comes up with it sooner. They (GM) just don’t want to let out the CS Fuel economy. They were striving for 50 MPG but I am sure with the large 4 cylinder engine 38 is about all you can expect and that would not help them sell Volts if it got out offically. They will hide it as long as they can I suspect. Still I love the technology. I will keep 1 gallon in my Volt gas tank and when maintenance mode kicks in I will add a gallon. I will only use the full tank for long trips and my first trip back to Florida from my dealer in Michigan.
Take Care,
TED
+4
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:31 am)I just love it! The nerd in me is ecstatic.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:41 am)Yup. It’s all a guess at this point. You are bit more optimistic than I am.
I am really hoping for 50 but I’m thinking closer to 32. Gosh I hope I am really wrong on this one.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:53 am)I would think that instead of a message asking you not to charge, it should just say “Ok to turn engine on now?”
This way you only run the engine for minimum required time, and then go back to electric only mode. If you wait til you are charge depleted, then you are forced to run the engine longer until next charge time.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:56 am)==================================
I agree with this completely.
As far as long road trips, use the other car, which of course would be an EREV!!!
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:58 am)The acceptable AER is different for everybody, it really depends on your driving needs. Many of the automakers have seemed to settle in on 100 miles to balance cost of the battery with the needs of the potential drivers. Most single-car households will not be able to live with a car that has a 100 mile limit and the current charging infrastructure, even if it vastly improves in the next few years. Until ranges increase and charging times decrease I see the pure BEV’s living in the garages of multiple car households. 100-150 AER will work fine for me as my commuter with an EREV like the volt that my wife will drive and we can use for the longer trips. With this model I have calculated that we will use less than 80 gallons of gasoline (figuring the volt to get about 38mpg in CS mode) to drive the 40,000 miles we collectively drive in an average year.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:08 am)My guess for the CS is 38mpg. Remember this prophesy everyone!
My agonizing until my order number gets officially prioritized against dealer allocation continues.
At least the people in other non-launch markets KNOW they’re not getting one. I’m in limbo!
join thE REVolution
+3
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:11 am)Maybe you are on to something. Certainly, there’s more questions to be asked. If the Volt runs the engine for a half hour, that’s probably about a gallon used. Who fills up to replace a gallon? The entire tank is still “stale.” Even if you fill it, the tank is 8/9ths stale. How much improvement is that? If the Volt runs you down to practically nothing to force a refuel event, that would certainly be annoying, especially if it was a situation where refueling was inconvenient.
In my experience, stored gas doesn’t seem to go bad quickly, if at all. If you keep the gas clean and keep the gas can full, to avoid condensation, gas lasts a very long time. Years.
There’s more than one vehicle for every licensed driver in the US. Marketing a BEV as a second car is a workable strategy.
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:23 am)Voltec CS mode mpg for a 3500# sedan is not the same as mpg for a common ICE sedan. A 1.4L gasoline engine in a 3500# sedan will net about 32 mpg. You will also experience less than sporty performance. With the Voltec system you have the ICE running at specific tuned rpm set points. This is a gain over the standard 4 banger drive of the common sedan.
Secondly you have a battery for storage. The battery takes energy from the regen system on the car. This is an additional gain over the typical Civic’s and Altima’s of the world.
A third factor (I hope) is the ability of the battery gain through regen and ICE surplus to carry the vehicle as the ICE system resets to a lower maintenance rpm. This will add another gain over traditional gasoline drive sedans. The beauty of the Voltec system is that it also provides very acceptable torque for acceleration all of the time.
What does this mean for CS mpg in the Volt? I’m sticking with 38 mpg highway at 75mph. And 42 mpg highway at 65mph. Several engineers here at gm volt dot com say this will not be the case. Their reason being loss of energy for each conversion.
=D-Volt
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:24 am)Stabilizer? maybe ver 2.0
+13
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:28 am)Go back earlier in the year to the discussions on this site about gas going stale. Mass wailings, gnashing of teeth, rendings of garments. Amateur engineers offering crackpot solutions. All the while, the Volt’s engineering army had the problem considered, analyzed and solved.
Worries about battery life? Likely solved.
Worries about CS mileage? Likely solved.
Worries about marketing? Likely solved (although I have a little less faith in this since this isn’t an engineering problem haha!)
+3
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:32 am)As complex as this fuel management subject is for the average consumer (of course the ultra-knowledgeable members of this site completely get it…) – and just the simple idea that gas in a tank can go stale! – it strikes me as the PERFECT topic for a VOLT commercial. In a short 30 second spot, Chevrolet could:
– get accross the idea that many customers could drive a VOLT and use no gas.
– GM engineers left no stone unturned in developing VOLTEC technology.
– this is one SMART car!
– beauty and brains do go together
– no matter what, you’ll still get to visit your friendly neighborhood gas station attendant at least once a year
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:45 am)Hey Everyone,
Yahoo just posted an article about electric cars, I’ve been leaving comments trying to fight the ignorant, perhaps if you’d like you could help by spreading some of the positive news about the Volt and other electric cars. Yahoo seems to be the worst when it comes to commenters. Super conservatives who hate electric cars simply because Obama likes them.
Here’s the link. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100910/ts_nm/us_autos_charging?mwp_success=NONJS_POST_SUCCESS#mwpphu-post-form
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:54 am)Right you are. Never let engineers and facts get in the way of marketing.
I used to work for a software house years ago. We wrote telemarketing software.
We had a salesman that would sell stuff the product didn’t do. Then we would have to scramble and make it do it. I spoke to him once about this.
His response: “Never confuse sales with product”. Something I have never forgotten.
-6
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:00 am)Oh Oh Just a crazy thought! So you park your Volt in the garage that’s attached to the house under your bed room during the winter. The Volt knows it needs to pre-condition its battery and warm up for the daily commute. Will it pre-condition electrically or will it start the ICE? If it starts the ICE all Volt owners better have working CO2 detectors in their homes.
NPNS!
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:01 am)Just reading the information in today’s article thinking: “Wow! Volt is one complex piece of modern machinery!”
And – “Thank God for computers – not just for NASA anymore!”
Just think, we’re entering an age when maintenance and performance adjustments are more algorithms and programming and less greasy bloody knuckle wrenching!
RECHARGE!
James
-16
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:07 am)(click to show comment)
-11
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:08 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:11 am)Yes, I like the number 42 for CS mpg. You can drive 300 miles per week using less than 1/2 a gallon of gasoline. Most cars on the road use 7-14 gallons of gasoline for 300 miles.
600+ mpg is not too bad.
=D-Volt
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:14 am)Some charging news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100910/ts_nm/us_autos_charging
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:24 am)Sorry, I see that was already posted.
-2
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:31 am)The GM site is indicating the following on battery warranty:
- Pro rating for battery repair issues (i.e. only back up to where your old battery would have been — not back to new)
- Maximum loss of capacity during warranty period: 30% (I’d assume that’s 30% off of the 8 kwh or guaranteeing 5.6 kwh’s usable at the 8/100 point)
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do
(technology info)
+7
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:35 am)That should be the tagline for this site
(ducks)
Like this.
I have a list of 10 Principles Of Engineering, and one is:
“If you’ve thought about a problem for 30 seconds, you’re not qualified to criticize an engineer who’s studied it for much longer than you.”
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:37 am)The picture does not seem to match the story, unless I’ve missed something here. It appears the Volt is being recharged instead of being refueled.
Either way, I’m really impressed with all that GM has done to make the Volt introduction a success.
I agree! I got started working with computers back in the early 60′s. We knew way back then that computers would change the world. But, we never dared dream of all the things that are possible today and what we see in the Volt. It is all fantastic!
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:53 am)That sounds OK if there are enough charging stations. If you pull off the highway to a station and there are 2 cars in line ahead of you, that adds another hour to your charging stop. I don’t think I usually need a 90 minute rest stop after 4 hours.
+7
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:05 am)That was actually covered in training. When charge stations come online, OnStar will have that info. Need a charge station? Push the blue OnStar button. Directions will be downloaded to your Navigation System. Simple.
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:13 am)James, what is this a picture of, K.I.T.T?
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:19 am)In the article cited by Lyle there are some comments by someone purporting to be a GM tech. He says that if the engine isn’t turned on in six weeks the car will run for approximately 10 minutes. My guess is that this is the lubrication issue not the gas issue. He also says that if X quantity of gas hasn’t been used for a year, then the car will run until X quantity is burned. I’m guessing this is the stale gas issue. (This is the amount of gas over a year old not the total amount of gas – the point Herm makes at #16).
One suggestion for people, unlike Dave, who won’t burn gas at all is to only keep a gallon or so in the tank. IOW filling up will only make sense when you’re planning on a long trip. Otherwise you can pretend you’re back in your college days, pull into a gas station, and buy $5 worth of gas every once in a while when you need it.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:21 am)I love these technical articles. Keep ‘em coming Lyle!
What’d really be cool is if GM made an app that goes through all the options of the displays from startup through shutdown. Putting the owner’s manual online would be nice as well.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:23 am)This can be worked out by computers, Project Better Place has developed the software and management system to do it.. essentially the computer negotiates with all the cars in the area about to start a long distance trip and just schedules a charging slot for you. I really dont think there will ever be a market for fast commercial charging in-town, thats why I mentioned the Feds should do it for the hwy system. The fast charge connector needs to be standardized ASAP.
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:27 am)With my current driving habits, 600 would be easy to do. I wonder if the display goes that high? I think I saw one of them that said “250+”. Maybe it stops there?
I’d also like to see the 0-60 be closer to 7 seconds in sport mode. We don’t really have an official test on an official production car yet, but, that’d seal the deal for me. With the instant torque, there is no reason that an electric car shouldn’t blow any other car away off the line.
+5
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:29 am)Just to follow up on your point about how intuitive the Volt’s connectivity will be, here’s an article talking about this very issue. http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/09/09/the-chevy-volt-saved-gm/
Just as an appetizer, the article describes the Volt’s connectivity as follows: “The Chevy Volt is perhaps the most connected car on the planet. I can’t think of another even under development that offers such a variety of online services including the Nissan Leaf. ” The Prius also gets a mention: “The Chevy Volt’s software and connectivity feels like any next-gen car should. I’m saying next-gen because it looks and works like nothing on the market currently. The closest thing available now is the system used in the Prius, but where everything about the Prius feels like the current generation of vehicles at the end of their evolutionary path, the Volt’s is an entirely new beast. The future of the automobile is upon us.”
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:33 am)I wonder how long it will be before $5 doesn’t come close to buying a gallon of gas. Makes it seem like those college days were a long time ago (they were!). I suppose it won’t be too long before it will take $5 just to use a public charging station for 30 minutes.
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:33 am)That may be the case but it won’t matter. Following up on CorvetteGuy’s point about connectivity, from what I understand the car will upload information to your website giving you all the information you’d want about gas usage and mileage.
The Volt is opening the door to a new world.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:34 am)My assumption would have been 30% down from the full 16kwh capacity down to 11.2kwh, that is the industry standard.. the question is what happens then?, does the computer increase the DOD to account for the wear and you still get 8kwh to drive on?… Probably not, the computer will adjust and now you can only use 50% of the new capacity, 6.1kwh.
Will you buy the extended warranty package from the dealer or from a third party, reputable, nationwide insurance company?
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:43 am)I’m guessing 42.8 MPG. We know the goal was 50 MPG. Last year around this time Lyle published an article where, if you crunch some not obvious numbers, Lutz was saying between 40 MPG and 50 MPG. That’s a reference point.
We also know that the the cruising range in CS Mode is 300 miles. Consumer Reports said the tank was 9 gallons. WopOnTour has pointed out that the range is the distance traveled until the warning light comes on. So when does the warning light come on? From what I gather the warning is given when there are about two gallons left in the tank. So 300 miles / 7 gallons = 42.86 MPG. That’s a second reference point.
But lots of people will get 500 MPG.
+8
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:45 am)The issue of stale gas is not at all new to RV and boat owners. I owned a Class A motorhome with a built-in Onan generator for 5 years and I currently own a boat with a Mercruiser (Chevy) engine. It’s not at all uncommon for retired “full-timers” to park their motorhomes at a fixed location for
2 years or more & run to the local grocery, etc in the compact car they towed along behind. In the case of motorhomes the on-board AC generator shares the main gas tank; for travel trailers & “5th wheel” trailers, the AC generator has its own gas tank. In both cases the generator has to run OK using gasoline perhaps 2 years old from a non-pressurized tank. In fact, GMC sold their own handsomely-styled motorhomes with self-contained AC generators over a period of many years.
My point is that stale gas due to 2+ year storage intervals, even in non-pressurized tanks, is an issue GM engineers have long experience with. So I’m not at all concerned that the Volt’s relatively small pressurized tank, decompressed by a pump which empties any gas vapors into a “carbon canister”, won’t be highly effective. In fact, it seems almost like design overkill to me.
/The pump/canister might very well be an area where costs can be saved on Gen 2
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:49 am)I wonder what happens to the gas in the canister over time if the tank is only partially filled? The vacuum pump pulls most of the air out of the tank. Tank is opened. Air flows in. Tank is half filled leaving half a tank of air. Tank is sealed shut. Gas in canister is allowed back into the tank, but it can’t all go into the tank because there is already some air in the tank. Of course, gas is compressible, but if the tank was only partially filled several times, the canister would eventually have to dump some gas or it would not be able to pull all the air out of the tank. Surely, some engineer thought of this. I wonder how it is addressed?
+5
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:55 am)I’d like to see that principle applied to criticism of climate science.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:03 am)It seems to me that the capital cost of a charging outlet is likely to be much lower than the capital cost of a gas pump, so I would think, once they’ve decided to offer charging, they’ll have plenty stations. However, it could be that getting the multi-thousand amp service to the rest stop or whatever will be the expensive bit and the capital cost of that might be higher than I expect. In that case, charging will be limited.
I would guess that it will be least expensive to get quick charging at locations that are near high-capacity transmission lines (although getting electricity down off those for distribution may be more complicated than I think).
Besides, most C-stores and rest stops make their money off the $1.29 Twinkies or $5.29 meal deals they sell inside. It’s going to be to a C-stores or rest stop’s advantage to have you on site for 20 to 30 minutes.
-7
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:12 am)WopOnTour, in spite of his abusive post in reply to me on that subject, is most likely wrong. I found examples of range on the GM web site and they are highway mpg times gas tank capacity. No reserve. Here’s one…
http://www.chevrolet.com/vehicles/2010/aveo/overview.do
Pick the “fuel efficiency” item on the right.
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:13 am):+} When I was in college in the late ’60′s I could fill my tank for 2.00 or less (taxes included). Gas was as low as .15 cents a gallon in MI. One can blame or credit the “oil depletion allowance” at that time. In the early seventies, as most know, there were the first gas shortages.
The new electrics may be like getting gas for a lot less than .15 a gallon equivalent.
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:21 am)I don’t believe the canister ever has liquid gas pumped into it. As the article says, “a vacuum pump decompresses the pressurized tank and pumps vapors into a ‘carbon canister’.” Just as carbon canisters used as water filters trap & store undesired chemicals, this carbon canister traps the gas vapors to prevent them from escaping as emissions —and stores them indefinitely. Also, see my post #55.
+3
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:29 am)Elegant! Although I have to admit that it makes my KISS sensors alarm. What a complex machine. GM really is leading in technology here.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:33 am)Current evaporative emission canisters are connected to the engine for purging the vapor from the charcoal. The canister doesn’t hold liquid gasoline. This design has been around since the ’70s.
-3
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:37 am)That doesn’t read quite the way I intended…
It seems to me that the capital cost of a charging outlet is likely to be much lower than the capital cost of a gas pump. Once a business has decided to offer charging, it shouldn’t cost too much extra to offer plenty of charging stations.
There’s also something I didn’t think of earlier… liability. You can just bet your bottom dollar that the first time there’s an unpleasant incident involving high voltage rapid charging, the lawyers will come streaming in…
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:41 am)Closer to 80 cents.
1 gallon of gasoline = approximately 40 miles @ 40mpg
1 fillup of a 40-mile AER battery is about 80 cents. Volt site is saying over a dollar now.
There’s no free lunch. You’re still moving a 2-ton car down the road.
+4
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:46 am)Training showed the display screen peaking at “250-plus” miles per gallon. I think they capped it at that number because anything over that is just ‘bragging’.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:47 am)As far as CS mode like I said before compare it to a car about the same weight. Or wait lets just look at the Cruze and add about 500 lbs. for batteries. The Volt does have regenerative properties but again its 500 lbs. heavier, also it has more parasitic loss to get the power to the wheels if some of the energy is going to the bat and back out. So I would say maybe a CS highway of 36-38 and combined of 34-36. If anyone is thinking of a CS of greater than 40 I have got some ocean front property I can sell you in AZ. All this said the Volt is still an engineering marvel and a great step into the future and GM Engineers deserve a great deal of respect for it!!!
On a side note, GM how much have you paid your marketing department for marketing the Volt? Well they have been insignificant compared to the PR that Lyle has provided you. He has helped educate the public about the volt. I tell people to check out the site all the time when talking about the Volt as I am sure others do. I think the right thing to do would be to at least give him a Volt free of charge.
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:49 am)Yep. I’ve got one under the hood of my ’79… Along with dozens of other smog-related hoses.
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:06 am)Good point.
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:06 am)Roger that Rashiid,it’s K.I.T.T. ( Knight Industries Two Thousand ) – Just used the image to illustrate my point – “Whiz bang”, Sci Fi fantasy technology in the ’80s is now coming into being in forms like all the computer controls in Volt. “K.I.T.T., monitor gas situation, buddy!” “Roger Michael, initiating computer scan – I am always monitoring gasoline systems status.” “Michael, I see you’ve opened the gasoline portal but did not commence fueling procedure.”….lol.
Off-topic but related to my illustration: While K.I.T.T.’s dashboard looks closer to the instrument panels of a 747 jetliner, the studio planning the 2008 return of the Nightrider TV show studied the iPod for inspiration in designing the new GT 500KR version. Instead of the original Firebird K.I.T.T.’s cluttered array of switches, buttons and flourescent digital readouts, they wanted smooth surfaces – no buttons under clear displays. Sound familiar? Remember back in the just-post show car Volt days when designers explained to Bob Lutz that the iPod was an influence in designing Volt’s controls?
O.L.E.D.s seem to be the future driver interface – touchscreens and voice-activation. I also expect to see more functionality on the steering wheel F1 style – O.L.E.D. displays included. Since O.L.E.D.s can be made very thin, there will be much more curvature around the driver with better ergonomics – I just hope not uber distracting to us vehicle operators. IMO, manufacturers also want to entertain the newer generations of auto buyer, who’ve grown up with smartphones and MP3 players wrought with multi media. Nissan’s GTR’s multi-information display was designed by they guys who programmed Playstation3′s Grand Turismo video games! Just look at Ford-Microsoft’s SYNC, or Fusion Hybrid’s green growing leaves eco gauge dash and Honda Insight and CR-Z’s entertaining color shifting speedometer backlight designed to egg on the driver to greener driving habits. Google Lamborghini’s Reventon dashboard and you’ll see something that looks like a cross between K.I.T.T. and the HUD of a F-18 Hornet.
Here are some interesting tastes of dashboard’s just around the corner. I can envision Volt gen III with a multi touch O.L.E.D. wraparound display with no dials or buttons whatsoever.
Here’s some examples of what’s just around the corner in dashboards:
RECHARGE!
James
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:13 am)Cadillac Converj
RECHARGE!
James
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:14 am)They’re different systems so simply comparing the mass isn’t going to work other than as a gross approximation. In fact what your’re suggesting is akin to saying that a Prius engine alone delivers 38 MPG so to find out the MPG you’d actually get in the real hybrid Prius you add the mass of the batteries to the curb weight of the car and then subtract some MPG for the additional weight.
What you’re neglecting is that with the mass of the batteries also comes additional energy. In the case of the Volt this allows the ICE to run at RPMs that efficiently deliver average rather than maximum power.
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:14 am)I would rather see hotels and motels offer outlets to the electric vehicle standards and offer reduced rates for EV and EREV drivers. This information should be available to the On-Star network. I would love to have that information when I drive my Volt from the dealer in VA back home to Miami. It would certainly affect where I stop for the night. Until battery technology advances to a 10 – 15 minute recharge that you can get at a convience store, we are 6 – 8 hours rechargers. If you hang out by my nearest Tom Thumb (store) more than 15 minutes, they will probably have you arrested for loitering.
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:19 am)Mitsubishi ZT Concept
RECHARGE!
James
+3
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:35 am)GM has said many times that the battery would deliver 40 miles at the end of the warranty period. This suggests they will dig deeper into the reserve. Would there be any reason not to? No one would want to end up with 50% of the battery on a car at its end of life, would they? Even if the battery did lose 30% of its capacity over the first 8 years, using 8 kWh of what remains would only be 70% of the pack so there would be plenty of buffer left.
+4
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:39 am)Charlie H = Kilgore Trout ???
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:43 am)Heck, I recently got a net of 32 mpg with a 3.1L V6 engine in a similarly sized car (granted, I was driving at 60MPH max) . I think a 1.4L engine can do much better.
These seem like reasonable numbers.
They do say that, though they don’t back up their claims. There’s no reason to believe that mechanical electrical conversion losses would be much more than about 15%. Those losses will probably be made up by the lack of the unneeded automatic transmission. After adding up all the other advantages you’ve mentioned, the Volt will likely be way more efficient in CS mode than any other similarly powered car currently on the road (that being 250HP equivalent).
+5
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:44 am)You seem unable to leave behind your gasser experience. What difference does it make if the Volt gets 40 MPG or 60 MPG in CS Mode? We’re talking about having to run the engine every six weeks because drivers aren’t using any gas at all for that time period. At that rate the difference between 40 MPG and 60 MPG is half a gallon of gas (1.5 gallons versus 1 gallon).
For the vast majority of people the limiting factor on how much gas they’ll consume is how much they put into the tank. Fill the tank and you’ll use 7 gallons a year. Fill it with 3 gallons and you’ll use 3 gallons.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:50 am)+1 for the cite. But I couldn’t find this on the web site, exactly. All I could find under the technology section was a reference to the battery losing between 10% and 30% of its capacity depending on use. Are you inferring from this or is there something I didn’t find or something I missed?
+6
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:53 am)DonC… Did you ever get a big stick and beat a dead horse with it? Did it ever move? Well, this guy is no different. And by the time Toyota brings out the Plug-In Prius, the Volt will have already shown its true value and when people see the ‘lesser-performance’ of theirs, they will just shrug their shoulders and say, “Why did you even bother?”…
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:54 am)That boat sailed in the late 1980s…
If you’ve owned a car made in the last 20 years, you were probably on that boat and didn’t know it.
It’s been great fun helping my mother learn about modern cars. She got most of her automotive knowledge from my grandfather in the 1950s, and hasn’t really paid attention since. She moved to the rockies and asked if she needed to have her car adjusted. “Mom, the old rattletrap that you’re driving does that kind of tune-up you’re asking for at least 10 times a second.” It’s already all algorithmic. Fuel injection, antilock brakes, air bags, traction control, automatic transmissions — they’re all algorithmically controlled, and fundamental adjustments are done through the software. Unfortunately, the controllers are all black boxes — as a computer guy, I’d love to read the code and I’d also love to be able to take my life into my own hands and modify it. But the liability associated with the last part is one of the reasons why the manufacturers keep the details under wraps, I guess — and what they provide really is excellently engineered.
Most modern automatic transmissions feature an adaptive control algorithm — the transmission learns the quirks of the engine and of the driver, and shifts accordingly. So, if your particular engine has its peak power at slightly lower or higher RPM, then the transmission will adapt its shifting accordingly. Also, if you always wump the pedal in a certain way, I’ve heard that they’ll try to smooth that out a bit. Most service manuals will allow you to reset the adaptives in an automatic transmission.
I currently drive a Prius, and the thing wouldn’t be worth driving if the computer didn’t take care of balancing the electric and gas power. Also, the computer provides regenerative braking. There are mechanical links to the brakes and steering, of course, and it’s fairly easy to shut down the engine (the runaway Prius people didn’t bother to read the owners manual). So, even if you think EFI doesn’t fit the bill for an algorithmically-controlled car, the era that arrived a decade ago with the Prius surely ushered in the era that you’re discussing.
While software-controlled cars are nothing new, I do agree that the controls and the software in the Volt are unique, and are a milestone in automotive technology. I just felt it was important to point out that the milestone is much farther down the road than your comment indicated.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:55 am)Did you notice the mention of ‘range anxiety’ (lower case to emphasize the GENERIC nature of the phrase already in use)? Back to the thread from several days ago, GM simply is crazy if they think they can trademark the phrase.
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:03 pm)I figure that they’re keeping the number secret because it’s either really good, or really bad. The premium gasoline requirement gives me hope that it’s really good because why bother with that requirement otherwise?
But, yeah, I’m a Prius driver (too) — and 38mpg looks pretty lame on any passenger-car after years of getting high 40s and low 50s out of the car in my driveway.
-13
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:03 pm)(click to show comment)
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:14 pm)I see this as rather unlikely as the reason the “customer” capacity is limited to 50% in the first place is to increase the lifetime of the battery. I don’t see a good reason to keep a 50% limit on a battery that is close to end-of-life. It’s dying soon anyway, why bother trying to extend its life further? Might as well increase the depth of discharge percentage wise so that the range (and customer experience) remains constant. There’s no benefit to sacrificing range to extend the life of a battery which you’ll have to soon replace anyway.
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:27 pm)If this site is perplexed over battery warranty and fuel storage, just think what a problem GM has communicating with main street. The feedback just today to GM’s PR Leadership is worth its weight in platinum. GM must do a better job. I’ve felt VOLT being superior to LEAF is the fact VOLT buyers take zero risk – they don’t need to be risk takers – early adapters.
Last night I watched that LEAF polar bear hug commercial. What a great job-an outstanding commercial. Now I believe LEAF is far too restrictive to challenge VOLT or ICE. Where VOLT is go-anywhere. But insofar as 1st set ad work quality – point and set to Nissan.
GM has to turn tech confusion into credible ‘tech care’ reliability. Which is exactly what GM’s engineers have done – now GM’s Leadership needs to follow.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:28 pm)I recently got 25mpg driving my Hemi 5.7l on a trip. And I wasn’t going only 60 mph. If Volt can’t get double that, there’s something seriously wrong.
For virtually all drivers (except the very few that drive 3200 miles per trip without charging) CS mpg is meaningless. Actually, mpg itself is an irrelevant measurement when you’re talking 250+.
We’re sitting here discussing how long gas can last before going bad for heavens sake. Meaning, ya ain’t gonna use very much.
/sheesh. talking about electric cars in mpg terms again.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:28 pm)Nelson,
The Volt uses the grid to acclimatize the passenger cabin and battery while connected to it. The ICE is only used to heat the car when it is cold outside and has been standing for a long time without being able to plug into an outlet or charging station; when it is outside rather than in a garage, the traction battery may need to be heated before it can power the car. In that case, the Volt will start with the ICE first . Check out this link on gm-volt.com:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/18/chevrolet-volt-dealer-training-course/
Atthe ned of Maximizing Efficiency and Range, there is the following statement: “It is recommended that you ‘pre-condition’ the vehicle while plugged in, before starting to drive. Also, the heated seats use less electricity than full cabin heating.”
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:28 pm)Busted.
Dang it. I got careless.
-8
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:29 pm)30% down off of 40 miles (nominal) would be 28 miles AER (probably no ancillary loads, driven gently) — so there would be 7 kwh of total capacity remaining (5.6 kwh useable). That would be my guess.
Hopefully, a detailed warranty will specify exactly what is being guaranteed.
I’m inferring because that’s all I ‘can’ do. GM could clear it all up very quickly by actually telling us what they have for sale.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:30 pm)Hope the Volt has good interior ventilation to make up for my occasional gasser experience…
+4
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:32 pm)Happens.
-8
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:36 pm)You are implying that “end of life” is just beyond 8 years. My new car is 10 model years old (9.5 years of ownership). If the degradation requires digging deeper into the reserve at 8 years, what will be left at 10? The process, it seems to me, is likely to accelerate if they dig deeper.
Clearly, GM can’t warrant 8 effective KWH forever, but the battery is definitely one of those “life of the car” systems whose failure kills the car. Even a dramatic improvement in per-KWH battery cost would still likely leave the buyer needing a part with a parts-counter cost of $3K or more. Properly maintained, the transmission and engine in regular ICE vehicle has an “indefinite” life span; a projected life span that’s several times the powertrain warranty.
+5
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:37 pm)Just plug it into the wall to warm it up during the winter.
Ya really don’t get it do ya. Let go of the past. Car 2.0 is here in 80 days.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:43 pm)First of all, the vast majority is what matters. Outliers of one sort or another are irrelevant. Are you saying the Prius gets worse MPG than a BMW 3 Series? That’s what TopGear found. Oh, but the TopGear drive cycle didn’t represent the driving experience of the vast majority, right?
On winter driving, you’re making this up. If leaving the car overnight in -30F didn’t require the engine to come on why do you think parking during the day at 20F will.
I’d be very surprised if, for the vast majority, driving 12k a year would result in antying less than 150 MPG. My wife drives 12K miles a year and my guess is she’d average at least 250 MPG in a Volt, probably closer to 500 MPG. Keep in mind that 12,000/265 = 32.8.
-6
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:47 pm)Are you using the ‘new’ math?
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:51 pm)Sorry. Another one that doesn’t understand.
Volt uses electricity way more than gasoline. You’ll get hundreds of mpg if you charge it up every night. Your minimum mpg will be higher than Prius’ maximum.
/We really want to continue to rate an electric car with obsolete terms like “mpg”?
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Naw. It’s a slide rule probably. They can be off by a decimal or two.
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:55 pm)That’s true but not that relevant. Every car, like every person, has a shelf life. At some point you see multiple system failures. The point would be that if you still have 40 miles of range left at 8 years, you’ll have some range left at 15 years, and you’re not likely to drive a 15 year old car across country. As cars age people drive them fewer miles, and the fewer miles will be a countervailing force on battery life.
I’d also point out that 30% is the worst case. The best case is a nominal 10% degradation. My guess is that like most people who drive cars for long periods of time you take good care of your cars. For people like yourself the battery probably wouldn’t see a 30% degradation until 15 years. In this regard, if you look at John’s blog he says the life expectancy of the Prius battery is 10 to 12 years. Given the stress placed on and the chemistry of that pack, you should expect the Volt pack to last 15 – 20 years at a minimum. IOW if you claim the life of the Prius battery pack isn’t an issue then the life expectancy of the Volt battery pack shouldn’t be questioned — it’s going to be longer, way way longer.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (12:57 pm)And the problem with that is … ???
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:00 pm)See how we get used to the fact that very soon gas will be $5 a gallon
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:02 pm)You got me laughing at that one. Yeah, new math where 265=365. (Scheez no slack for the fat fingered around here).
Note on the battery degradation that 30% is the worst case. 10% is the best case. So maybe 20% is the expected? Does anyone really know? I’m thinking 10% may not be that far off, primarily because the predictions for battery life, be it for the RAV4 or the Prius or whatever, have invariably turned out to be far lower than what the real world produced.
-5
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:02 pm)To me, the Volt’s battery durability is a big unknown. There really isn’t a good precedent that I can think of to compare how the battery might hold up. Specifically, the wear and tear on the battery in CS mode. All those mini-cycles (of unknown depth) — what kind of effect is that going to have ??
Another factor will be the use of sport mode. If people commonly use sport mode and wail on the battery, that’s going to have an effect on battery life as well.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:03 pm)What’s a slide rule? LOL
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:05 pm)Allowing the heat of the engine to precondition the battery so that it lasts longer. Again, the problem with that is … ???
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:10 pm)I’ve never owned a horse, so no dead one, thankfully. But I had a dog once that I had to hit with a 2X4 just to get his attention. Is this similar? LOL
But yes, what you said. I don’t understand why Toyota is bothering with the plug-in Prius either. The regular Prius is a different story. I’d expect the regular Prius to do OK for a few years. Just as CD players sold well for a few years after the iPod and other MP3 players were released, the regular Prius will still sell well for a few years until people understand the advantages of better technology.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:11 pm)I would like a discussion here of posters who are Engineers, as to what to expect for CS fuel economy.
I can’t but believe operating in near fixed RPM ranges, most likely tuned to be fine spots of BSFC map, without the need to operate in the poor areas of the BFSC map at all, can’t help but produce really fine mileage.
I remember the Mobil Fuel Economy Run farces, and if anything the hypermiling produced 1000s of mpg, was an attempt to operate in high BFCS, by driving tricks. This is done in the Volt almost, automatically.
I, as an Engineer, am guessing for a figure easily in excess of 50 mpg. What do all you Engineers think?
+3
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:11 pm)You cant compare nimh and lithium.. lots of differences, an important one is that lithium is more efficient in storing and discharging energy, about 99% vs 80-90% for nimh. nimg cells generate a lot of heat.
I think the Volt will do very good for 10 years, degrading its EV range down until 15 years.. after 15 years the genset will run more and by the 20th year the genset will have to run continuously.. for most of those 20 years the Volt will handle the same.
GM is being extremely conservative on the batteries.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:17 pm)Darn…. I liked the .15 idea but .80 is still less than 2.73 we are paying in Mi now for a gallon of gas. My Prius gets about 45 mpg in driving and the battery part of the volt = 40 so .8 vs 2.73 is a little over 3 times is the better deal.
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:21 pm)BTW,
The plug in prius uses a different strategy than the volt as far as how the lithium batteries are treated.
The PIP has 3 battery packs. The first two are drained (very gently) and sequentially for EV operation. Leaving the last pack for some shallow cycling (i.e. regen and refilling from the mg’s).
Test drives have shown that they must not be allowing a very high discharge rate — the engine will kick in under anything more than moderate acceleration or even a gentle hill climb. Wether this is for extended mpg results (utilizing the engine for higher power) or to extend battery life ?? — Toyota has indicated the former but I haven’t read anything from them on about battery life or associated programming strategies.
Acceleration rate on the PIP is not stellar, something like 10.5 0 to 60. Again, wether this is for mpg or battery life (or both)??
-7
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:28 pm)You inadvertently touch on an important point, I think. I think the best answer is “Nobody knows.” GM has, undoubtedly, done the best job they can testing the cells and packs.
But… they’ve only had a few years to do it. Degradation that’s based on time alone is unknown. It’s uncharted waters. It could be better than they project but it’s also possible that it will be worse.
The customer is taking on a risk. There are enough EV enthusiasts out there, God bless ‘em, that there are going to be customers who *will* take this risk but… it’s still a risk.
Much as we’d like to think so, we don’t *know* that. Projects like these take on a life of their own and, sometimes, nobody wants to step in front of the train and wave a red flag, although they know they should. All we know at this point is that GM appears to think an 8 year battery warrant is “safe” in terms of product profitability. They’ve looked at their testing and determined they won’t lose their shirts on an 8 year warranty, so they can do it.
I’d feel much more comfortable if I’d ever had a Li-Ion cell phone battery last more than two years. My laptop batteries are typically toast after 2 years, too. And it’s very rare for me to do a deep discharge running on battery. About 99% of my work with the PC is at a desk, in a dock.
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:28 pm)Several posters gave this link from Yahoo:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100910/ts_nm/us_autos_charging?mwp_success=NONJS_POST_SUCCESS#mwpphu-post-form
“AeroVironment says it has devised a 50 kilowatt electric charger based on DC electricity which can power a Nissan Leaf in just 26 minutes, though each unit would cost $30-40,000. ECOtality says it can charge a Nissan Leaf to 80 percent full in 15 minutes using its 60 amp fast charger, which will cost $20-25,000 apiece.”
Considering what ECOtotally said, I wonder have effective it would be in charging the Volts battery pack?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:34 pm)Now all we have to do, is figure out who Charlie H is!?! Oh wait a minute: Charlie H is Kilgore. This is so confusing
NOT.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:38 pm)If a Volt is on a 3 year lease, 62.5%+ of the 8 year warranty is now of no concern (and assuming the car comes back to GM after the lease is up). Will be interesting to see if the warranty is transferrable when (if) GM resells the car.
+5
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:39 pm)As both an engineer & a physicist, I fully agree, Stas!!! Partly because of the technical advantages the Volt architecture offers and partly because —having met both Tony Posawatz and Andrew Farah— I can’t believe they plan to make fools of themselves!
-1
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:41 pm)Well actually the Cruze is very similar in platform to the Volt including the power plant. The bulk of the battery weight only helps before CS mode, after the bulk of it is just dead weight. The mass of the bat does not add energy, a bat is not a source of energy only a medium which is depleated (to 30%) in CS mode. Only a small amount will be beneficial to regeneration. And any energy that is stored in the bat rather than going straight to the drive motor will incur extra loss in the storage and removal from a chemical battery. I am actually a systems engineer with a BSEE. I understand your points but the amount of mass being moved is the largest factor. The Prius does not have that much added weight from its batteries and even if it wasn’t a hybrid it would get great gas mileage. The reason there is not a non-hybrid Prius is because you would have a directly comparable vehicle as far as mpg, very smart of Toyota. This is a small part why GM hybrids of past failed, they had a directly comparible vehicle so it was easy to determine they were not cost effective. (i.e. the hybrid malibu) I am a big supporter of the Volt I just choose not to drink Kool-Aid about a combined 40mpg CS. Even if the Volt got 20 mpg CS it would still be a superior choice for the majority of consumers and the future of the automobile. If I am wrong about this I will apologize in the future but don’t think I will need to.
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:42 pm)I believe the quick charge relies on a 440 volt DC charging circuit that is optional on the Leaf and non-existent on the Volt. If a similar charging circuit was present on the Volt it would likely still have a 15 or 20 minute lower limit since battery chemistry only allows recharging so fast regardless of the size of the battery.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:47 pm)I expect high mileages 60mpg or better, but it all depend on what epa cycle we use and if its a raw number of the lower “adjusted” number the EPA has started using in the last few years to better match drivers actual results. We have a betting pool in the engineering forum going on:
Its a Pit Fight, the EEs fight againts the MEs:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4996
and the original thread:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4177
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:53 pm)This is where you are off. The battery is still available to provide power. Plus it’s likely that if you’re driving for longer distances the ICE will cycle off as the battery goes above the Customer Depletion Point. The point would not be to get you home with a full battery by running the ICE.
-2
Sep 10th, 2010 (1:58 pm)Would you buy one without it?
In any event, that’s a standard practice… it’s very doubtful GM would not extend the warranty to the second owner.
Sep 10th, 2010 (2:01 pm)probably just as effective, but it would definitely void the warranty, a charge of 80% in 30 minutes is relatively benign for lithium cells, but that last 20% is a killer.. plus the Volt has the means to keep the battery cool.. in any case the Volt really does not need a fast charger, it carries along a dedicated generator to keep up the battery.
-1
Sep 10th, 2010 (2:01 pm)You are correct it would go above the Customer Depletion point but the battery is only a medium not a source. We are talking CS mode only here. The ICE is the source therefore the FUEL and anything in between is losses i.e. electric motor/generator, cableing, and removal and storage to the battery. A BATTERY IS NOT A SOURCE IT IS A MEDIUM. Please any EE’s out there let this guy know this. You do not get more energy out of the BAT than the ICE puts into it, in fact you get less because of losses. And of course you would not run the ICE to recharge the battery to full that is not what I am saying.
-1
Sep 10th, 2010 (2:24 pm)When’s the last time we heard anyone from GM say they were using ‘just’ 8 kwh?
– I’ve noticed the estimated times to recharge have gone up.
+8
Sep 10th, 2010 (2:25 pm)Thought for the Day:
-6
Sep 10th, 2010 (2:29 pm)I guess that would depend on the price and a lot of other factors.
I remember a GM person saying they could re-use the batteries after the lease period was up. I thought that a very odd thing to say, but I can’t find a reference to it now. So, take that for what it’s worth … not much.
-7
Sep 10th, 2010 (2:37 pm)I never noticed that. However, I’m used to GM people saying randomly weird things and I generally just shrug it off. It’s not just customers that are confused, plenty of GM’s suits have opened their mouths said stuff about the Volt that’s wrong. Especially last year, when it was one of the hot projects… everybody wanted in on the glory.
+2
Sep 10th, 2010 (2:49 pm)It’s a circular reference that needs to go in the circular file.
Sep 10th, 2010 (3:15 pm)Yes, running on electricity 90+% of the time is the plan, and this would reduce my personal fuel consumption given my driving pattern.
The Volt would still reduce my fuel consumption, but the analysis requires a deeper look at my driving pattern when it’s less efficient than the car that’s already in my driveway, paid off, with an established maintenance-record, and it’s a car that both my wife and I genuinely like. With a 38MPG in CS mode, its stats don’t beat the Prius in every respect (especially since MPG is the main stat that a Prius owner would care about), so I have to go into a much deeper analysis to prove to my wife and myself that the Volt is a win, and also that it’s worth $41k.
But all of this is on hold until we can take one for a test-drive, and until we know the actual stats. As I said before, the requirement for premium gasoline might mean that they have very good mileage — ’cause if it’s going to get the same mileage as the Cruze with the same engine, why bother requiring premium gasoline? I hope that everything becomes clear when the rubber meets the road at my local Chevrolet dealer.
Sep 10th, 2010 (3:16 pm)Well that will be a problem too, you’re actually supposed to discharge the batteries regularly (not deep discharge, just until you get into the red). That’s what killed my last laptop batteries – I kept it plugged in almost all the time and I ended up with 2 minutes of battery life. Now I’m careful to let it run on batteries at least once a month even if it’s at my desk.
Though this won’t be a problem with Volt batteries unless you rarely ever drive at all. If someone can afford having a Volt and hardly ever drive it then maybe the cost of replacing the dead battery every few years won’t bother them either.
The other think too is that I believe usable laptop battery capacity is much larger than the 50% you get in the Volt. That also probably contributes to batteries dying much sooner in laptops.
Sep 10th, 2010 (3:20 pm)Yesterday Audi released architecture of EREV. Audi focusing on Wankel based genset. Wankel is much more flexible towards fuel quality. And MPG is amasing – 1,9 l/100 km.
-2
Sep 10th, 2010 (3:50 pm)============================
I was looking at this as well. The quotes were taken from two of the blurbs in the Technology section of the web site.
In the “Durable Battery Design” section it talks about degradation of the battery pack during the warranty period from 10% – 30%. I think he just took the max value.
In the “Volt Service” section it states that the warranty replacement may not return your vehicle to an “as new” condition.
So my question would be: If I had a six year old Volt, and the pack failed completely, would I get a new pack, or a used pack with only approx 13 KWh available? As an analogy, if my engine fails at 45K miles and is under warranty, do I get a new one, or a reconditioned one that already has 45K miles on it? Never having been in that situation, I don’t really know the answer. I think there will be some interesting conversations between the customer and the service manager when he tries to convince the customer that someone else’s used / defective battery pack is going into his vehicle……
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Sep 10th, 2010 (4:05 pm)I think he was referring to the added extra efficiency of being able to run the engine at a constant speed, which is only possible with a substantial battery capable of delivering all of the power requirement. So while the battery in itself may not be a source of energy, using it allows more energy to be used that would otherwise be wasted, so in a sense it kind of is a net source of energy when you look at the system as a whole. In this case the extra mass helps efficiency instead of hurting it.
That’s true, however any regeneration is better than no regeneration at all, even if it incurs losses. But if you’re talking about the genset charging the battery – we know this to not have a big impact. Most of the energy from the genset goes straight to the wheels, only a small amount (depending on the load) will charge the battery a bit. The genset will try to match the load quite well by operating at different levels of RPM.
Actually this is not correct, the aerodynamic drag is the largest factor (at least in hi-way driving) , mass is hardly a large factor. An extra 10% of weight only reduces fuel economy by 1% – 2%. And in city driving the regenerative breaking also substantially decreases the impact mass has on fuel economy. In fact for most hybrids, city and hi-way economy tends to be about the same because of that reason. Some even get higher mileage in city driving (because of the reduced aero drag).
There’s no reason to believe this is true. It’s advantages are mostly attributed to it being a hybrid. If it wasn’t a hybrid then it would have to have a much larger engine. And it would suck in city driving … etc, etc. Of course it depends on what you mean on “great gas mileage”. Compared to a Hummer, yeah I guess it would be pretty great.
I guess this is why there’s so many skeptics when it comes to the subject of the Volt’s CS mileage. If it seems too good to be true then it must be Kool-Aid right? But these numbers aren’t based in wishful thinking, they’re based in solid physics. Whether the Volt will actually achieve these numbers also depends on GM’s competence, but it should at least in theory be capable of achieving them.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (4:23 pm)Yes of course a battery is not a source of energy but an EV can most definitely transform kinetic energy into electrical energy which can be stored in the battery. You’re trying to compare an EV with a traditional gasser without accounting for energy recapture. That’s a huge omission. When a gasser uses gas to to accelerate or climb hills it has no way to recapture that energy. The energy is lost to heating the air or road or brakes. In stark contrast, an EREV vehicle can recapture that energy. Every time you decelerate or go down a hill the kinetic energy is turned into electrical energy which is sent to the battery for storage. This doesn’t stop when the car is in CS Mode. And energy recaptured and stored in the battery can be used to power the car.
That’s how a hybrid like a Prius gets higher mileage than a similar non-hybrid car — it has a battery which can recapture energy.
Check out CorvetteGuy’s post at #124 for a graphical depiction.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (4:32 pm)No one stated anything was wrong or right. I was simply pointing out how WINTER had been disregarded as having any affect on gas consumption.
Again, the engine will be needed at times for warm up. Also, the engine will be needed due to range dropping from heater use.
+5
Sep 10th, 2010 (4:41 pm)OT: Pretty good overview of a red Volt with the neutral leather interior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv7d9yqJXWU
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Sep 10th, 2010 (4:47 pm)I’m not a battery expert, but my guess is that the cells within a module have to be balanced, so at a minimum you’d end up with a new module if one degraded more than the others. If all the modules in the pack failed I’d expect you’d end up with a new pack because making up a new pack module by module would be more expensive.
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:04 pm)I been wanting to say essentially the same thing in a much simpler way but lacked the actual experience that you sight to back up your statement. +10 to you for this post.
The WELL-TO-WHEELS ANALYSIS OF ENERGY USE AND GREENHOUSE GAS
EMISSIONS OF PLUG-IN HYBRID ELECTRIC VEHICLEs report used an adjustment factor of .70 for EV and series PHEV – CD. How EPA figures there are additional drive train inefficiencies in the electric vs traditional vehicles, and even more the blended mode PHEV, is beyond me. It appears that they are indicating that the 40 mile AER would require heavier battery pack, motor, and engine. The problem with their analysis occures when they put the PHEV-20 and PHEV-40 in the EV and series PHEV category. These are electro-mechanical drive trains whereas the EV and series PHEV do not blend mechanical with electrical. Only in series PHEVs like the Volt does the series PHEV have a mechanical motor but only to drive a generator and is totally separate from the traction part of the vehicle. Since the efficiency of electrical devices is far more efficient than mechanical devices, they should have a separate category for EVs and series PHEVs. Electric motors are reaching upwards from 92% efficiency in the lab.
Take Raser Technologies Symetron technology resulted in an AC induction motor with 3X torque of a standard motor. Their motors, generators, and alternators are more powerful than conventional ones. With such high efficiencies, electric drive trains will use far less electricity for the same or better performance than what is currently used.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:11 pm)Carcus3 is just leading you on a wild goose chase. The link he gave doesn’t support any of his statements.
Jackson was right: don’t even bother with what he says. There are plenty of people here making logical statements and asking legitimate questions. Skip his comments and pay attention to what non-trolls have to say and ask.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:13 pm)I’ll admit i haven’t read through all the posts to verify this, but it’s utter nonsense if anyone is soured about the volt HAVING to use some gas every once in a while. I’ll admit at first i was undecided about weather or not that fact was a buzzkill, but if you kept a volt under 40 miles a day for a full year, and you car runs maybe 3 or 4 cycles, that’s probably less than 1/2 a gallon per year.
How long do you think each running process is? 5 munutes? When i actually thought about it, i realized it won’t use any amount of fuel worth worrying about. Running your car for 5 or 10 minutes barely burns anything with today’s cars as it is. Maybe the volt’s engine cycles will cost $3 a year, worst case. I’m not sweating it.
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:24 pm)I agree! With about 20% loss after eight years, there would be 30% reserve after using 50% for day to day driving. That 30% maintains the premises of not deep discharging the battery pack. That is probably why GM states the AER will be maintained even after the guarantee expires.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (5:34 pm)Got a link for that so I can review it? Thanks
Happy trails!
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:34 pm)I believe the side by side comparison where the potential buyer test drives the vehicle will make the difference in the end.
Just look at the number of hits on this website. Potential buyers can get all the info on the Volt here. GM’s ads should lead everyone to gm-volt.com. Forget our comments; the articles contain the important information. Afterwards, they can go to the Chevrolet dealers lot and test drive the Volt. Point and set, and match to GM.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:44 pm)Volt’s battery pack is NOT 8 KWh.
“The car’s 16 kW·h (8.8 kW·h usable) lithium-ion battery pack can be fully charged by plugging the car into a 120-240VAC residential electrical outlet using the provided SAE J1772-compliant[3] charging cord. No external charging station is required.[4]” from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 10th, 2010 (5:56 pm)So…how do they get 40 miles out of 8kwh from the battery? It’s not that great a feat to get 8+kwh from the generator out of 1 gallon of gas.
/Where is that ocean front property?
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:22 pm)Gonna try and post something……
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:25 pm)Yes, they have been testing for the last two years plus:
“GM expects ten years of life out of the batteries. As of early 2008, they had started extensive battery testing and planned to have 10-year battery results in two years.”
Not to mention, the collaborative work done with experienced battery compnaies: LG Chem and A123.
GM has been testing the battery packs to insure the buyer doesn’t incure a major risk.
“The Volt battery program she notes is right on schedule and GM has been building production packs since January 7. Gray notes there are multiple packs from the plant that are now in the lab undergoing tests. When the first production pack came to the lab for testing earlier this year, one of Gray’s colleagues noted it was “the best battery we’ve seen so far.”
http://gm-volt.com/2010/02/24/battery-director-denise-gray-leaving-gm-for-stealth-battery-startup/
OT: The later comment I quoted may explain one reason why GM went with LG Chem rather than A123.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:25 pm)You have no idea what you are talking about!! With the losses they will not achieve this with the current system.
Let me remind everyone GM said they would get 40miles from 50% of the bat at first but then had to use 70%. This is because of the unforseen inefficiencies in the system as well as the added bat weight. This ineffiecincies are even greater in CS mode because energy has to be stored and recovered from the bat at times. These inefficiencies will also effect CS mode.
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:41 pm)Reaaalllyyy?
@33.7KWH/gal
What’s max BSFC for a typical 1.4L I4, not even specially tuned for @80max HP?
Say you need 9kwh out of the ICE to get the same energy out of the generator as the battery supplies for CD mode mileage. 9/33.7=26.71%
Why do you feel GM is incapable of designing an 1.4L ICE that can achieve or exceed this in the Volt or what am I so unaware of?
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Sep 10th, 2010 (6:42 pm)I did not forget about regen or recapture but it is actually a smaller contributor than you think. Look at the Malibu vs. Malibu Hybrid. I did mention it in my previous post. The extra system losses in the Volt because of it’s configuration will actually even make these contibutions smaller. They only gained 10 miles of range when desending Pikes Peak. It probably takes 8 times that amout of energy to climb it as I live close by and have been up there. The major factor for MPG in a vehicle is Mass which is why I stand by my original comment. I have looked at all the other contributions to the system, trust me. But in the end we will see how it plays out. I am a major supporter of the Volt but that doesn’t mean I believe 50mpg CS mode. Like I said before the Volt is an engineering marvel and the GM engineers involved deserve respect. The Volt will be a great stepping stone into the future of the automobile.
Sep 10th, 2010 (6:45 pm)Huh? GM never said they are using 70% of the battery. They have always said about 8kwh is used. Dude, the efficiency after the generator and after the battery is THE SAME (save for small amounts run through the battery).
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Sep 10th, 2010 (6:55 pm)They are not even achieving the sort of efficiency you describe with the Cruze and it has the same 1.4L with a turbo which is more efficient, turbos increase efficiency. We will talk about the Ocean Front Property when the EPA shows the CS mode mpg. I am not at all worried about being incorrect in my evaluation of the inefficiencies in the system. You are not wrong in your calculations but they will lose more than you think and I also think you are underestimating the losses in the storage of that energy to the battery giving them less that 40 mpg. I said it before if I am wrong in the end I will apologize but don’t think I will need to. I will however apologize to my response to you, I guess it was a little harsh.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (7:00 pm)You are correct but you lose in charge and in discharge of the bat in CS mode. And yes the did say they use 70% as CS mode starts at 30%. 100-30=70. They originally quoted 50% but did not hit the mark so they are actually using closer to 11.2 kw to achieve 40 miles. Maybee I am mistaken, if I am show me where they say they start CS mode at 50% of bat depletion.
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:07 pm)Well if your an electrical engineer, you can’t give valid opinions on mechanical apparatus which is what we are taking about with regard to the CS mode.
You say, “but the amount of mass being moved is the largest factor.” Here you are correct. WELL-TO-WHEELS ANALYSIS OF ENERGY USE AND GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS OF PLUG-IN HYBRID ELECTRIC VEHICLES report done for DOE indicates the mass of the battery has a large effect on energy use when in CS mode. There are some conclusions in the report I do not agree with. The PHEV -40 AER and 30 AER vehicles are grouped with series HEVs while the PHEV-10 (upcoming Toyota Plug-in Prius) and the PHEV-20 as blended HEVs. They attribute additional losses to the series HEVs of 30%, I believe, to higher weight of the batteries, motor, and generator in order to maintain sufficient performance power. I do not believe that blended mode PHEVs should be lumped into series HEVs. Figure 2.5 Parallel HEV, Figure 2.6 Series HEV, and Figure 2.7 Power-Split (Dual Mode) HEV depict the differentiated drive trains. Figure 2.6 shows that no transmission is used although the dialog box in this figure states “it may not regular a transmission”. Yet the report uses data that has a one or two speed transmission! An additional mechanical device that an EV doesn’t need.
Additional, I request you explain where the dual mode drive train is more efficient then a series mode one. Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t electrical and electro-mechanical apparatus more efficient than mechanical; electric motors 85 to 92%; ICE 25 to 35%.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:12 pm)I stand corrected about the 11.2 kwh statement as the bat only charges to ~80%.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (7:28 pm)Yes, you are correct; it would be necessary to have a 440 Volt charging circuit. My question was directed to whether the GM Volt battery pack would be capable of such high voltage charging. Together with that question would also go whether or not GM has attempted to test level 3 charging with the LG Chem cells in its battery pack.
With regard to fast charging, I believe that the problem exists when trying to recharge a deeply discharged battery and also at the top going from 85% to 90% SOC to 100% SOC. At the bottom end and the top end of SOC charging must be at a slower rate. For that reason, GM choose to limit the usage of the battery pack between 80(85)% SOC down to 30(20)% SOC. I would like no know what GM engineers think of level 3 charging of the Volt battery pack.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. I gave you a +1.; didn’t think your comment rated the -1 I saw.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (7:37 pm)I am not sure to what extent this is true but the charge and discharge of the bat in CS mode is the most ineffiecient of the electrical portion. You are definately correct that most of the mechanical losses are greater. As electric motors/gen are very efficient. As far as the difference in the efficiency of parrallel vs. series I am not arguing this. Yes regen will have a positive effect but the losses of charging and re-charging will be significant. The losses will also be dynamic in the sense that the energy used directly from the ICE while it is on as some will be will have far less loss. If you read all my post you can see why I come to my conclusion of mpg for CS mode. Just because I am a EE doesn’t mean I know nothing of mechanics. My father is actually a GM Service Manager and I have studied both electronics and mechanics in some degree. If you must know I am a systems engineer that has worked in missiles, missile defence, comuntication, metrology(calibration) and graduated with a 3.96 GPA. I am not saying I am definately correct about everything stated as most the time miscalculation is due to missing a variable. And yes not having a transmision is a gain but i don’t know that it will counter the added bat weight. Look at the differances and similarities in the Cruze and Volt both plus and minus in there effect. i.e. Cruze no trany, turbo ;Volt significantly heavier, bat charge/discharge, regen,specific rpm’s; they both have same 1.4 litter and same platform. I just believe that in CS mode the Volt will get a little less than the Cruze because the added weight will trump most of the other gains and losses maybee I’m crazy, I guess we will see.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:39 pm)Usually his cites are good. I may think they’re wrong for some reason or another but they’re usually on point. He offers a different perspective, certainly different than mine, but different isn’t necessarily bad. Plus he has a sense of humor which is always a good thing! LOL
Man, I think everyone from GM has always said that the battery would provide a 40 mile range at the end of the ten years. I always thought there was going to be a ten year warranty so that may have changed to 40 mile range at the end of the warranty.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (7:43 pm)Stop being nit-picky. I said “effective.” If you prefer, “net.” And I’m just using the classical 8 “even” figure which we got from GM for 3 of the last 4 years.
No matter how you describe the capacity, the battery is a “life of the car” item. How long do you expect an engine to last? A transmission? An axle?
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:54 pm)One piece of information you may not have is that when GM did their modeling, their models suggested that the Volt should be able to get 50 MPG in CS Mode. That’s why this number is the bogey for the engineering team. Now a model can be off but given GM’s experience in this area I’m hard put to it to conclude the model was off by more than 10% or 15%.
Another piece of information you may not have, since my cite is hung up in moderation, is that Frank Weber has said that a 40 count reduction in the Cd gives you 8X more range on the highway and 2X more range in the city than does a 400 pound weight reduction. Mass just isn’t as important a factor for EVs as you seem to think.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (7:54 pm)All I can say to your “but that last 20% is a killer.” is the GM Volt battery pack is never charged to 100%SOC. Only the middle 50% of total 100% SOC is used. The last 20% of charge must be done at a slower rate. However, that is never necessary for the Vollt battery Pack.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:11 pm)I partialy agree with you, I mean after all the Prius has a great cd and good highway mpg but this good cd number also exists on the Cruze maybee not quite as good as the Volt but good none the less and they still are only getting 38mpg highway. The regen portion however will not greatly effect the highway mpg. The difference in the weight of the Cruze vs. Volt I believe will also have a greater effect than the diff. in cd. Are you saying the Volt has a 40 count cd reduction over the Cruze? Remember I am comparing similar platforms not the body of a Silverado vs. a Volt. But yes you are correct in your statement as written I am not arguing that.
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:12 pm)You’d think that 20 minute quick charging would be easier with the Volt since it only uses 50% of the SOC. You could probably get the entire 8kWh charged in that time rather than the 80% figure of the Leaf. But it doesn’t surprise me that GM didn’t include this feature. It’s not necessary for an EREV and GM is really pampering their battery to reduce risk on this new technology. They clearly intend on eliminating some over engineering in version 2 of the Volt.
The Leaf is much more aggressive in the use of their battery. Though I find it hard to believe the unconfirmed reports of 95% depth of discharge. Of course a Volt driver is much more likely to use the entire range of battery discharge allowed because of the range extender. A Leaf driver would need excellent timing and luck or else a tow in order to completely use up their battery.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:14 pm)I have never heard that they had models that predicted 50mpg. I know they have said they believed 50 mpg was feasible, but not sure how much of a that was based on modeling vs. just a “engineering swag”.
Do you have more details on this modeling that your suggesting?
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:25 pm)Actually you could also compare the Volt to the Prius which has a close to the same cd value. That being said the Volt is significantly heavier, yet the hybrid systems are different but not enough to overcome the weight diff. So the Volt will be lower in Highway mpg CS than the Prius on the highway. Yes the Volt is however superior because of its 40 mile EV range. But this was the trade off for GM longer EV range for decreased CS mpg. I do agree this was the obvious choice and they found a good balance.
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:26 pm)Lets not use dubious words to describe the battery storage device and the charge it contains. Medium and source usage is only a verbal argument.
You stated: “JCook: The bulk of the battery weight only helps before CS mode, after the bulk of it is just dead weight.” In the case of the Volt, the battery pack is not dead weight in CS mode. It still is capable of providing power to the drive train when needed to say pass another vehicle. From 30% SOC, the battery pack is still able to provide 10% of it reserve to assist the generator driving the traction motor.
True, there are losses in the electrical system from the generator to the controller to the battery and back to the traction motor. But this is irrelevant since we are recovering some of the generated electricity which is unused by the traction motor. For the system to work properly that excess must be channeled somewhere or be destructive. Just as the excess heat from brake pads must be dissipated so that the brakes do not brake down and fail, the excess electricity must be channeled away from the drive motor windings as occurs with regenerative braking back to the storage device, the battery pack, which then can be used at a later time. By running the generator/motor at a constant speed rather than varying it to provide only the amount of electricity needed to drive the traction motor, the excess energy is stored in the battery. This allows the ICE to work optimally, letting it get much better mpg than a normally operating ICE. (This is the theory of Voltec technology which is being so much disputed by EEs and MEs.)
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:31 pm)Actually, they say 8.8 Kwh usable.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:33 pm)
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:37 pm)I said the bulk of the bat weight. To do the job you are referring to you would only need an approx 2kwh bat. So I am not incorrect in stating this.
And a Battery is not an energy source no matter how you want to state it. In CS mode the energy source is the fuel. Even in EV mode the battery is not the source and this is also why 8kh in the battery is not 8kwh from the plug. The battery or storage device will have losses in charging and discharging. Saying a battery is a source is like calling a fuel tank an energy source. Except a battery has a larger loss than a fuel tank in filling and emptying. A battery is a fuel tank for electricity. Getting in to symantics doesn’t change my statement.
Everything else you state I have already talked about!!!!
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:38 pm)My position (which is totally conjecture) on what GM is doing with the battery warranty is of course based on very little information. But ……. those are numbers on the GM website advertisement — right there in black and white:
“Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10% to as much as 30% of capacity over the warranty period.”
Now if this meant that the battery would only be down to a total of 14.4 kwh (.9×16) to 11.2 kwh (.7×16) at the end of 8/100 that would be great. But my (pessimistic) take is that the battery could be down to 7.2 kwh (.9×8) to as little as 5.6 kwh (.7×8) total capacity.
Obviously, you can run 10% to 30% to mean all kinds of things ( I can think of at least 3 more ways to run the numbers). What does it actually mean?? Nobody but GM knows at this point. But if I were putting money down on the car it would be first thing I would ask, and I’d want a detailed answer in writing (i.e. on the warranty — it should be specific). With a battery worth over $10,000 .. there’s a lot riding on these specifics.
/add, — Some of the things talked about by the “insiders” over the past few months very much make me wonder if GM isn’t dipping further into the battery than 8 kwhs , but it’s all just rumor.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:39 pm)Indeed, and this has all been very well hashed out in the “CS mode” threads in the forum here by people a lot smarter than you or I.
Really, read those threads and you* will quickly become a lot more humble about your easy statements of CS MPG. I mean, I laugh out loud every time I hear “300 / 9 = 33 MPG” for the umpteenth time. More reading, less bloviating.
* generally, not addressing anyone specifically
(and thanks herm for trying to inject some facts here
)
These daily article comment threads are like mayflies. There’s 100+ comments arguing the same thing over and over (arguing PAST each other), and every day it’s reset to zero and relitigated. Groundhog Day.
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:48 pm)Also, I am not disputing the technology just the 50mpg in CS mode that GM is withholding. If it was 50 GM would be shouting it with a blowhorn!!!! I understand the Tech and am a big supporter of it.
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:48 pm)My position has been for some time, and remains, 30 to 35 mpg. — that’s coming from the smartest guy I know.
Sep 10th, 2010 (8:59 pm)Sounds pretty smart to me. I just had to throw that out there but thats just because I agree with him.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (9:01 pm)Thanks for this! I can finally see what my interior combo looks like (neutral leather with dark console). That console looks more metallic grey than the black that it appeared to be in the order kit. I’ve watched the video once with the sound down, and will watch again with the sound up. The camera work is awful but it’s a long video so you do eventually see everything in the interior (and I mean everything). Warning: annoying teenagers at the end.
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Sep 10th, 2010 (9:08 pm)Many people new to the electric car experience are now walking into GM dealerships. One of the questions all of them ask is, “How many mpg on the freeway?”. The best answer salespeople can give is, “This hasn’t been released yet”.
How do you think this looks to people interested in buying a Volt?
Do you think these people leave the dealership scratching their head thinking, “Gee, the salespeople don’t even have a freeway mpg”.
The longer the mystery goes on. The more dysfunctional the image becomes. It’s really time to simply state specs on the Volt. Fuel tank size and mpg in whatever form GM wishes to present it. Or would November be a better time?
=D-Volt
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Sep 10th, 2010 (9:21 pm)I’m guessing that the typical Volt prospect is pretty tech savvy. It has always confused me as to why GM acts like they are going to sell the car to Pat Q. Public when in all likely hood it’s really John Q. Richgeek.
I would think slathering the brochures with all the real data (be it good or bad) is a better approach if you want to sell the car.
/now, if you’re just trying to sell the IPO, that could be a different story
// if the mpg is above 30, you might lose some buyers, but I’d guess a majority would still be interested, — but if you try to hide the data that will turn the tech person off.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:30 pm)As time progresses, I’m find myself even more intrigued with the Voltech concept. Something about having a backup generator on-board that utilizes liquid fuels that have over 40 times the energy density of modern battery technology keeps this technology bouncing around in my head.
Now, I assume that in a few years there will be many variations to the EREV drivetrain by many different automakers, assuming the Volt is a hit with customers. My dream EREV will have a very lightweight carbon fiber body and chassis that is extremely aerodynamic yet practical. It will follow the lightweighting protocols that optimize all the components to give the best driving experience and overall efficiency, all the while fulfilling its intended purpose.
My main desire is that I only want minimal genset capability. Here are what I consider to be the most important functions (in order) for my dream EREV:
1) Provides limp-home capability – gets you home with Yugo (Geo Metro) like performance when the battery has run out. It kills range anxiety but does not help much with performance.
2) Provides for long-running accessories – keeps you cold in the summer and hot in the winter, for far longer than a battery could. Again over 40 times the energy density, especially for heating tasks (ICE systems provide great heat generation).
3) Reduces the size of the needed battery – you can properly size the battery for your unique driving conditions (can be changed if needed) – this will make sure you are not lugging around extra mass, like the Tesla does, thus improving overall efficiency.
4) Allows the faster adoption of electrified transportation. BEVs without infrastructure for quick charging are only going to fill niche markets. The EREV can be used by 80% of drivers (if you drive a lot of highway miles, get a bio-liquid-fuel capable vehicle).
Thus, the Volt is something very special indeed. Finally, a practical, affordable, well-built electric car that doesn’t make the driver feel he/she is driving a golf cart.
With the impending release of the Volt, I think people are soon about to understand how great the plug-in electric concept is. Not having to worry as much about the price or use of gasoline will make the plug-in vehicle worth its weight in gold. It’s a feel-good luxury that’s good for you.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:34 pm)Heh, yea, he obviously was just doing it as a quick thing to show it off, not really in depth. I don’t even know if he was the one who took the car home for testing, or it was a friend and he was just taking a look, he didn’t know where a few things were. But I’m in love with the neutral interior, looks nice. I got black paint and neutral interior in my Volt.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:37 pm)I thought I heard him say something about “my dad” in the video. I think it was made by a GM employee’s teenage son. That’s kind of cool too.
JMO
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:43 pm)You can’t accept that GM is just waiting for an official label from EPA? Wouldn’t it be fuel in the fire of GM haters if they published a statement saying that mpg in CS mode is 50.4 mpg and EPA came out with 48.9 mpg?
Good night and BE Well!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (9:58 pm)Not really a big breaking story. Do you remember the original Volt web site, the one before Voltage. It talked about an EV range of 40 miles and then an extended range of 300 miles based on a 6 gallon gas tank. The 300 mile extended range had an asterisk which said the number was based on either “a computer model” or “computer models” — can’t remember now.
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:02 pm)That was my impression. Cute really. My favorite part was when one of the young kids asked him what MPG it got and he said something like: “If you keep in charged it has infinite MPG”. From the mouths of children! LOL
+1
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:06 pm)Sigh, why do I even bother. Just go to http://aluminumintransportation.org/downloads/AluminumNow/Ricardo%20Study_with%20cover.pdf, page 26, Mid-Size Car, and look under 10% weight reduction for Baseline Engine. The mileage is better by 2.9% city and 2.4% highway. And that’s for a conventional drivetrain, not a hybrid. In a hybrid the city losses would be a lot smaller due to regen braking. If these losses can be called “trumping” then I guess Donald Trump should be feeling pretty small right now.
It’s funny how people like perpetuate myths with so conviction you’d think they studied the issue first hand and are reporting what they’ve seen with their own eyes.
-1
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:23 pm)Cd is only part of the picture. You also must consider area. Cd X Area = Total Drag.
No, I don’t know which car has more frontal area.
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:27 pm)Just watched the video again with the sound up. I’m wishing I had just watched it the one time with the sound down. Teenagers, can’t live with them, can’t lock them in the basement.
Sep 10th, 2010 (10:58 pm)Traffic delays, change of plans, spur of the moment decisions to take a trip and you expect to schedule arrival at charge stations so you don’t need to wait? Sounds like a combination of the railroads and air traffic control. Seems pretty unrealistic if the population of EVs is significant.
Sep 10th, 2010 (11:37 pm)Groundhog Day indeed!!!.
Where’s that magical multiple +1 button when I need it?
Sep 11th, 2010 (6:03 am)This is a very good post. The Volt only seems to be getting better as we find more of the details.
Will be very nice to see posts of over 100mpg in a couple months. Yes… that’s double the highest mpg of any vehicle made right now. When did a vehicle every come out that doubled the mpg? The elelctric driveline is the difference.
Sep 11th, 2010 (6:29 am)Obviously computers are not God, but they will know traffic conditions, where your (and the others) are and will adjust on the fly.. if you decide to stop and buy a cup of coffe for 2 hours then that is your problem.. this is just a low cost solution with the existing hardware.
Are you one of those folks that will complain when gas hits $10 a gallon and only available on even-odd days?
+1
Sep 11th, 2010 (6:40 am)A Nissan guy corrected that mis-report, says the DOD usage will be 78%
+1
Sep 11th, 2010 (10:18 am)I really agree that a good quality “top tier” rated gasoline can remain in the gas tank
for about 11 months before noticeable degradation occurs. After which, you have little
time to use up the larger proportion of what’s there, and refresh the mixture with new gas added.
I’d expect to use a tank of gas a month for my driving needs.
In the Chevrolet 454 cid motorhome (Winnebago) chassis I own, the excellently-designed and reliable throttle body (dual injector) fuel injection system has no trouble running on 11 month old gas, but I did notice that it takes a slightly longer time to fire up when the gas did get that old.
There ought to be a reminder label on the inside of the gas filler door to only use “top tier” rated gasoline (in addition to the required premium octane). I would not mind at all to see a recommendation for “Shell Premium”, as that brand is one I really trust to recommend.
-1
Sep 13th, 2010 (8:57 pm)GM has a dud here.
It is too expensive (for target market) even with the disgusting hand outs by the gov.
I say niche appeal at best, mostly well-to-do’ers who like the smell of their own methane.
The chevy Edsel?
People will look to the used hybrids, the new hyper mileage compacts.. you name it there are better choices bottom line.