China is officially the world’s largest automotive market, growing the most rapidly, and poised to continue doing so for years to come. As oil demand grows there and world production declines, China, like many other countries will be faced with considerable difficulties. As such the Chinese government has been strongly promoting and incentivizing the domestic production and sale of electric cars.
Not wishing to be left out of this opportunity, earlier this week GM shipped in the first two fully operational Volts to ever drive on Chinese soil The cars were used as part of the VIP motorcade for the 2010 Shanghai World Expo.
GM also announced it will begin to sell the Volt in China towards the end of 2011.
Volts for sale in China will initially be exported from Detroit as part of the 10,000 planned 2011 production run, so availability will be extremely limited. ”We are producing 10,000 Volts in 2011 and 45,000 in 2012,” said GM international operations spokesperson Freda Agboka. “We haven’t allocated or announced how many are going to be sold in China yet.”
The company has admitted, however, if demand in China turns out to be strong, the company may produce the Volt there locally.
“Local production of the Volt won’t be a problem, in terms of technology. However, we need positive market feedback before we can put it into mass production,” said Ding Lei, chief general manager of Shanghai GM, the US automakers joint venture in China.
GM also expects to price the Volt competitively in China, though pricing there has yet to be unveiled.
There were some early rumors the the Volt might be sold as Buick in China, since that brand is so popular there. The arrival of the car as a Chevrolet puts and end to that speculation.
Chinese government incentives designed to promote purchase of electric vehicles currently only apply to Chinese domestic automakers such as BYD. GM hopes by promoting the Volt and through it’s joint ventures in the country, benefits will be extended to their vehicles as well.
Furthermore GM is also developing a pure electric car called the Chevrolet New Sail, intended for the Chinese market. The car is being produced through Shanghai GM and is expected to lead to running prototypes by 2011.
“GM has made a long-term commitment to bringing our industry-leading technology to China,” said Kevin Wale, President and Managing Director of the GM China Group. “This is enabling us to provide the best mobility solutions for addressing the transportation challenges associated with the growth in demand for personal mobility. With GM taking the lead, the development of electric vehicles is opening up entirely new industries.”
Source (GM)
+64
Sep 3rd, 2010 (6:22 am)So they are going to be available in China before they are available in Ohio????
That would not make me very happy……………..
Especially if they are taking them out of the minuscule quantity of 10,000 units that will be produced in 2011!!!
And what does “price them competitively” mean? Am I going to subsidize low cost sales in Chine by paying $41k+ here?
Come on GM, it is time to up that volume.
JMHO
+18
Sep 3rd, 2010 (6:23 am)I guess our challenge in the US is to order and buy all the Volt production so GM doesn’t have any Volts to ship to China.
+17
Sep 3rd, 2010 (6:26 am)There is no way GM is going to send large quantities on Volts to China this year even if the demand is high so before everybody here freaks out about China getting early volts, calm down. The volts sent over will be at the end of 2011 which means they will probably be at the end of the run for the first allotment of 10,000 units and GM will probably start producing the first of the 45,000 soon there after.
I see this as GM recognizing the potential of selling a lot of Volts there in the future and they want to expose them to the market there as soon as possible to see how they respond to them.
+5
Sep 3rd, 2010 (6:40 am)I’m more interested in the comments about “mass production” locally. Be funny if they decided to crack open a volt factory producing 200,000 units a year in china at $20k a pop. I’m sure they could do it, and they really should. Would americans buy chinese made volts….? Almost doesn’t matter if they can corner the chinese market.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:01 am)# 4
Flaninacupboard Said:
Be funny if they decided to crack open a volt factory producing 200,000 units a year in china at $20k a pop.
It sure would, I’d be laughing all the way to the Chevy dealer.
+13
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:03 am)Bob Lutz talked about hopefully making 500,000 a year in China. Hopefully all the ones we can use here in America and then some will be made by Americans. But I have no problem with GM making 500,000 Volts a year in China for our Asian brethren. We’re all one big global family.
+26
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:07 am)GM is a GLOBAL company and must compete around the world. China is the world’s largest car market now, thus GM needs to stay out in front with new product. And the more successful GM is internationally in markets like China, the more resources they will have to develop new products for their home US market. So all good, right?
Not exactly… as the US government and taxpayers (along with Lyle and this site!) have helped keep the VOLT on track, it seems shortsighted on GM’s part to publicize that they are taking any of the initial production and sending it to China…. do it in the dark of night, but don’t tout it. I know, I know….. it will only be a very small number…. but if you happen to be consumer #9,995 in line for a first year VOLT, how would you like to find out your car was sent to China?
I agree with JimI – start selling VOLT’s in all 50 states BEFORE we start selling them globally!
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:11 am)“There were some early rumors the the Volt might be sold as Buick in China, since that brand is so popular there. The arrival of the car as a Chevrolet puts and end to that speculation.”
I can imagine that Buick asked for just that, and the Chevy people said “Go build your own version”. Chevrolet wants the credit for their hard work. I wonder what Buick is doing?
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:11 am)Any time we can export a product to China I’m happy. Get the cost down GM and you’ll be building Volt plants all over the world.
+13
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:17 am)Perhaps China is the reason the Volt exists. I imagine it wouldn’t be a very popular thing for GM to say publicly that we’re building this car for Americans and the Chinese market. At least not to us here in the States. But it’s been a global economy for quite a while now and I’m sure they were looking at China and the fact that they really don’t want automobiles to be powered by I.C.E.s over there.
Perhaps China was the final straw that enabled the Volt project 3 years ago and it simply would have been unpopular to publicly state it. I’m not saying it was the main reason, just a part of it. Let’s not forget, B.Y.D. a state run Chinese automotive company has 50,000 engineers and has had a somewhat similar car out for about a year (BYD F3DM) for 21,000 us dollars. It’s not as good as the Volt but close and it saves a lot of gas. If GM is any good at corporate espionage they perhaps saw that car coming and simply made it better. But to compete they’ll really have to get the price down. BYD is going to lower the cost of their car to 16 thousand. They claim it gets 62 miles on electric before the engine kicks in. That’s at a constant speed of 50 km/h however.
BYD also has Warren Buffett as an partial owner.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:18 am)I’d rather see more Volts on U.S. soil than on Chinese soil.
Also, the car looks AWESOME in whitte!!
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:22 am)I could probably see myself B-U-Ying a B-Y-D. I’m kind of a do it myself-er on repairs and stuff.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:25 am)First, I believe the Volts will be available across all the country by the time they are available in foreign markets.
Second, do not encourage GM to hide this program, it is good to see an open GM telling us about progress for the Volt. It is good to keep certain things under wraps until the time is right for a reveal, such as new products you don’t want competitors or your own customers to know about. Sometimes announcing a new product too soon can kill sales for the one you are building now, and you need to keep making money to bring out the new version. In this case GM is getting maximum benefit by advertising in China asap.
+4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:37 am)I’m glad GM is spreading this technology around the world. It will spread the costs and increase volume leading to more models and faster expansion of the technology.
Hopefully GM will re-tool additional facitlies to manufacture Voltec vehicles. I don’t see DHAM as enough to satisfy global demand for this vehicle.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:38 am)Is that a joke about Chinese quality? Or would you really feel more comfortable working on a car that costs half as much.
BYD wants to start selling their hybrids here in the states. If they could bring an MSRP of 20k and we would get the same 7,500 dollar tax credit I think they would sell quite a few of them. Do I want this? No. But if it forced GM to bring down the price of the Volt faster I think that would be pretty good for our world. I guess it will be a pretty long time till GM has to worry about that though, I don’t see BYD becoming a successful car brand here in the states for at least a decade.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:45 am)Will T battery production support this shipping schedule?
50 x 365 = 18,250
300 x 365 = 109,500
=D-Volt
+5
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:50 am)I can see it now. The Volt is going to become the most sought-after car in the world and GM won’t be able to keep up with demand for a long time to come. The lucky ones who get the first edition are going to have a car for the ages!
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:54 am)Lyle didn’t mention that the Chinese Volts will have OnStar. I believe this is the first time OnStar will be used outside the US.
+9
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:54 am)You guys, its all about the big picture here. GM is launching an IPO. They are concerned about presenting a plan to investors that shows they are global and have a defined stratagy for growing the business.
There will be plenty of VOLTs to go around. I am willing to bet that everyone who visits this site will be able to get one by the end of next year if they really want one.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:55 am)I would think that a Chinese market Volt in the configuration we have here is overkill.
We have a car designed with the smallest battery for the largest number of drivers for American driving habits. A car with an electric range of the Volt is 3 days of getting around with no gas in China.
If that’s not overkill, then it approaches the desired function we want here for our BEV. Three days travel would mean a 25 kwh usable battery in an EREV here.
The average driver in China does not come close to the mileage we travel here. Perhaps the Volt will offer the opportunity to drive a heck of a lot further for the transportation yen and help create a more mobile society (that is if travel is a freedom there).
Just as Opel sees the Volt battery as too large and the plug in Prius battery is adequate for France, the Chinese manufactured Volt most likely will have a less expensive and shorter range standard battery.
For us over here, I want a larger battery and a smaller ICE or a larger vehicle. (parked next to the Volt BEV!!)
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:55 am)I wonder how they will modify the charger? I think China has 220V outlets (can’t remember), i know the plant voltage was 380V 3ph 50hz, vs the standard 480V 3ph 60hz here in the US.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:57 am)A lot of people in China drove electric mopeds/scooters (as well as gas ones). I think they are used to short range trips via batteries. Maybe that “New Sail” will work well for their demographic. When will the LEAF hit China? Does BYD have a BEV?
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:59 am)I see a new site;
Click GM-NewSail.com;
Proud hopeful owners.
As yet untaken;
Domain is still available.
Who’s going to claim it?
-Book
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:01 am)Cars sold late in 2011 will be 2012 models. I believe I read earlier that the 2011′s will start production in Nov of 2010 and the switch will be sometime 1/2 way through 2011 to the 2012 models. That would imply that these first cars sold in China in late 2011, will be 2012 models which means they would (again implied by the article not explicitly stated) come from the 45,000 2012 cars not the 10,000 2011′s which should be all sold already.
Like it or not China is the largest market for cars now. GM can no more afford to upset someone in Ohio by selling cars first to China then they can upsetting some Chinese dude that all of the US has cars before China sees their first one. It is a delicate balancing act.
A man with two mistresses is not a restful man…
I thought that had kind of a chinese proverb vibe to it, fitting to the discussion, but really I just made it up.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:03 am)Yes they do, check out wikipedia’s page on BYD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:03 am)The downside to electric cars is that China’s electric grid is overhewlmingly powered by inefficient, filthy coal fired plants (much worse than what we have in the States). I would argue that until China cleans up its electricity sector that auto electrificiation there isn’t nearly as beneficial as it is here.
The frustrating part is that they have the technological capability (and the autocratic political capability) to displace a lot of their coal with nuclear if they would just work closer with American companies like Westinghouse.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:03 am)Disappointing they’re not waiting till the 45k run to start exporting, but from the big picture view its not too surprising.
Since the Chinese auto market is larger than the US market now and GM (I believe) has the largest market-share there, this makes sense – China is probably bigger than the US market for GM at this point (and its going to continue to grow rapidly).
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:05 am)A very important move by GM. It would be nice if they could get incentives for Volts from the US, but I don’t see China relaxing their policies on trade manipulation any time soon. So, it will probably have to be local production to reach any volume. Still important to spread the development costs. China may actually end up the leader in CO2 reduction. The other side of electric cars is nuclear energy and China is currently building 26 reactors, with many more scheduled to start soon. They also announced a couple of weeks ago that they will invest $175 Billion to build a ‘Nuclear City’ to concentrate suppliers, research, training, etc. I wish we were making that kind of investment.
+4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:05 am)Well, they have been building the Cruze in China for over a year, so it should be no problem to crank out Volts. There are lots of Cruzes on the road here.
Although the streets here in Shanghai are stuffed with electric scooters and electric bicycles, I have never seen a single electric BYD car.
I actually like the idea of sending American-made Volts to China, though. It would be nice to get a few of those (billions and billions of) dollars back that America sends to China each year.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:07 am)Makes sense, John. The US has MANY times more than China’s 25 million cars. But how many people have electric bicycles in the US? China had over 100 million electric bikes at Time magazine’s count 1 1/2 yrs ago* —and many of these people are extremely good prospects for the Volt and other electric cars. GM is very wise to exploit this huge potential market —asap.
And Volts could likely be produced on the same line as the Cruze (like they are here).
* http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904334,00.html
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:07 am)I don’t have any stats on the average Chinese commute, but from what I saw, most workers are forced to live in the corporate housing which is very near the workplace. That was my experience over there, I’m sure its different in Hong Kong.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:13 am)I also live in Ohio. And I don’t know if I’ll get a volt, a leaf, a FORD FOCUS or TRANSIT Connect EV. All I know is I’ll probably get whatever is available first here in Ohio. Only waiting list i’m currently on is for a Leaf.
I figure it will be about 6 months before i’ll really have any clue as to what makes the most sense.
I’d lease a Volt today if I could, but I’m okay waiting 6 months to see how things progress.
I just want to be able to drive around typically 60-70 miles without using any gas. The Volt is the nicest car but I’d have to find a mid-day charging station for the volt, the others allow me to drive all day without worry. The Volt allows me to take it out of town on vacation, but for that it makes more sense to use a gas only car, because if you are going to have to drive on gas only, might as well have a cheaper car.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:20 am)It is a little difficult to asses the average car owner/driver. I don’t think that customer for a Buick is in the same demographic that we have here. We can’t measure Chinese culture and daily life as we do here. The average mileage of the cars that are driven was a number that I found in a site referring to the Volt MPV5 in China and a little google work confirmed it.
The measure of success the auto industry has achieved in China is amazing for what the average person in China can own.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:21 am)Well here’s some interesting info from across The Pond:
The Chevy Orlando has been announced for production; in Europe. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/256240/chevrolet_orlando_unveiled.html
For good laughs, read the comments section to underscore how European opinions on car aesthetics differ from ours.
The Chevy Cruze will be released as a sharp looking hatchback. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/256732/cruze_hatchback_first_pictures.html
It is one sharp looking car! Bring that car here, GM, and I will buy it as my next automobile.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:26 am)GM should consider producing an EREV scooter. Not some awful bubble vehicle like they proposed with the Segway people… just a regular looking scooter that can go 10-20 miles electric and have a small 4-stroke backup generator.
+25
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:30 am)China, like most foreign governments, understands that there is no real “free enterprise” in the world anymore. Their government is giving incentives to buy electiric vehicles built ONLY in China.
Our American government does not get it. They live in a dream world where market forces and competition are everything, while the rest of the world HEAVILY subsidizes the takover of our markets with their junk products, ripping our manufacturing base out from under us, and laughing all the way to the bank while we go broke.
When, oh when, will our government give our AMERICAN companies an edge, like all foreign governments do for their industries?
Congress should rescind the $7500 incentive for anyone buying a foreign made electric car like the NIssan Leaf and give it ONLY to American cars like the Chevy Volt.
Millions of Americans are unemployed and hurting badly. We need to help our own economy first with our tax dollars.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:31 am)Ironically, I think the opposite thing is happening on a large scale. GM has huge profits in China, while they have just started to regain profitability here in America. They have been using Chinese profits to help rebuild their North American business. (well, Chinese profits and a dash of tax payer money).
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:31 am)I wonder if Chevrolet’s all electric cars will use the water cooled pack or the Gen2 pack that is uncooled like Nissan’s.
+4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:33 am)Environmental issues are secondary for Chine right now. Reducing imported oil is even more important to the Chinese than to us. They are fighting for new oil all over the world.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:38 am)I have never been called a mistress before……
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:47 am)Although I’ve spent a little time in China (in connection with the space program), I know very little about the average wage earner’s income level. However, I DO know that millions of Chinese wage earners live in government-provided (subsidized) housing, often shared with 1 or 2 other wage earners in the same family. With this major living expense (housing) largely taken care of by subsidies and by sharing, it seems to me there could be millions of such family units willing (and able) to SHARE the payments on a car, electric or not.
And there are huge numbers of such family units living in cities who left relatives in farming villages behind when they moved to the city —relatives they’d love to visit, many of which in this vast country are too far away to reach even by electric bicycles. And many of these farming villages are too small or too remote to be accessible by rail. So with the explosive growth in nuclear power plants in China, electricity should become widely available. At rates I’d expect would allow much cheaper travel than petrol-powered cars can achieve. It seems to me all these factors could very well consort, resulting in a truly gigantic market in China for EVs of all kinds.
+7
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:48 am)The ‘Media Blitz’, (if there is going to be one) hasn’t even happened yet, so any orders taken so far are probably from people who read this site and a handful of others. For the most part, the public is still unaware of the Volt and its capabilities. I don’t see how GM can get any true measure of demand based on what they have done so far.
If they surprise everyone with a fantastic Super Bowl ad, and nobody visits the showrooms after that, then they should open up foreign markets.
GM is currently preparing several “Volt Immersion Centers” where I and every eager salesperson will get some ‘hands on’ training with the Volt.
I say, once the salespeople are done, they open up those centers to the public. Let some ‘certified’ presenters educate the public 7-days a week. I would be happy to manage the place for them.
Thought for the day:
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:50 am)Back on June 10th, GM announced additional roll-out information:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/06/21/volt-nationwide-rollout-complete-by-end-of-2011-maybe-maybe-not/
Although not definitely stated, IMHO, you will gets Volts in Ohio before any go to China. “The Volt is not to be a localized state-specific car,” he added. “Volt is going to go across the whole country.” An exact date for nation-wide roll-out wasn’t mention by Rob Peterson and Tony DiSalle;s with new CEO Daniel Akerson indication to agressively market the Volt, perhaps we will here some very good news soon.
In the following link, they state the following:
“We’ll be adding markets halfway through the 2011 calendar year as we are getting into the 2012 model year,” said DiSalle.”We have very intention of selling in 12 to 18 months in all 50 states.”
http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/07/chevrolet-volt-rollout-process/
That too may change with the new CEO. If they find that they can ramp up production more than 10,000 for 2011 and 30,000 for 2012, they will meet any demand above that projection.
The later comment about “getting into the 2012 model year indicates that we may be seeing GEN2 with a much lower price. I am hopeful that this will be the case. If I get my wish, 2012 may be my year to acquire a Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:51 am)WOW – the cruize hatch looks awesome, if the made an EREV version of that I would sell my house to buy it! (not really) But seriously it would without a doubt be my next car!
-18
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:58 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:59 am)Actually the U.S. taxpayers are still on the hook with about 60% of GM. I think that, with an IPO in the offing, it is a very good move to let everyone know that the lucrative markets of China might be potentiallly available for GM’s most innovative product that has run up incredible development costs. Anything that boosts the share price of the IPO is going to benefit the U.S. taxpayer in the long run. Where have I heard that before? Was it “What is good for GM is good for America”? Even if it means selling Volts in China.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:00 am)Ahh, whatever happened to the PUMA?
I suggested the same thing about a month ago when I was shopping for motorcycles. Why haven’t Honda/BMW/Yamaha come up with either a decent BEV motorcycle or an EREV one? (I don’t expect Harley to) I was very close to getting the Zero S, but I just couldn’t work w/the short range. I ended buying an 800CC Suzuki Boulevard. It gets 50mpg, so im not GUZZLING gas, but electric would have been better.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:00 am)I agree. Any success in the worlds largest automobile market can only help GM. The cost of developing the Volt would be amortized over a much larger number and would contribute to lowering the price of the Volt here in the United States.
Hopefully, GM will have two brands popular in China in the future.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:01 am)I wonder what area of Chinese society is allowed to afford a Chinese car, never mind an import at the price level of the Volt. Personal transportation in China is a much different animal than we have here.
Has anyone traveled cross country China? Can anyone travel cross China? (yes, I know how large the country is!)
+5
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:02 am)Hey Nick, have you seen the cavernous hatchback THIS car* has to offer?
* Clue: It’s an EREV, like you say you want
+5
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:04 am)Too scary true to be tongue in cheek for me!!!
Balance of trade with China sucks for those of us who used to have their jobs.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:08 am)The cost effectiveness of building things in China and shipping them to the US is eroding. Companies are starting to realize the benefits of producing locally. That would also mean building cars for China in China vs. the US.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:13 am)I spent time in Beijing and out in central China in a “small” city of only 2million people called XingXao? it think. Even in the “smaller” cities, you see people with nice cars. I think there is a big market for $50k+ cars in China. It kinda reminded me of Mexico, or Brazil, you have very very poor people, and next to them a limo drives by.
Regarding cross-country travel in China, most people take the trains. They are really fast and nice.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:14 am)I will take that bet.
Tom
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:30 am)My sympathies lean in this direction. Government should at least reduce if not eliminate tax incentives on products not manufactured here. Also on foreign-built products – reduce federal tax incentives by the amount of any state tax incentive given. It’s a crime that in California, a buyer of a Japanese car gets $5k MORE tax breaks than buyers of a US-made car.
And while I am on my soapbox, I contend it criminal that the Volt does not qualify for HOV status while the LEAF does. At least for the morning commute when fully charged Volts are hitting the road. Even for the afternoon commute – forcing the Volt into the thick of rush hour traffic in extended range mode is counterproductive to reducing oil usage and cutting emissions.
+4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:30 am)Our friend Tag might say,
“I can see right thru this ‘marketeering trickery’ & yes, it’s quiet as a mouse & soft as a butterfly”
PS: CorvetteGuy, this one is among your best, if not your VERY best yet!!!
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:32 am)+6
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:34 am)Protectionism won’t help this country one bit. If you rescind the $7500 tax rebate on the Nissan Leaf then Nissan has no reason to continue with its American plant in Smyrna, Tennessee. The Leaf will be built here in the United States by American employees. You should read this article and reconsider what your saying.
http://www.allbusiness.com/human-resources/workforce-management-hiring-job-listing/1143233-1.html
The new plant to build the Leaf will employ 4,000 American workers. Since there are about three employees needed in the part industry for every automotive worker that’s anyother 12,000 American that are needed to support this plant.
So you see that the $7500 rebate on each Nissan Leaf once this plant is up and running, is really the economic incentive that our economy so badly needs. This applies to every other foreign automotive company that has moved production to the United States.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:35 am)Haha – Everyone here knows I am buying the volt as my next car, but if it was offered next to this Cruize hatchback…. I think I would go with the cruize (if it were erev of course)…
Unfortunately I think GM is too slow to act so I will have to go with the volt which I absolutely love.
Other cars I would like to own…
Voltec HHR
Voltec S-10
Voltec Corvette!
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:35 am)I disagree.
The $7500 is an incentive to offset foreign oil (from not-so-friendly countries), not foreign cars (from friendlier countries). Any electric or other alternate fuel car sold in the US starts us on our trek to get off of the oil-based economy.
Besides, a lot of ‘foreign’ cars are built in the US with US labor.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:37 am)China is on an ambitious nuclear development program at a rate unprecedented anywhere in the world. They have several plants under construction now and they have plans to pass the US in installed nuclear capacity (we are currently the largest world wide) within two decades.
Unfortunately, they will not need Westinghouse for this. They will build a few Western plants to learn the details and then plan to go “Chinese” with the bulk of their plants.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:41 am)I second the motion…. Chinese drivers are buying very expensive cars. They may have 1 billion poor people but they also have 300 Million who are not poor (i.e. population of U.S.).
I saw many high end cars on the streets of Chinese cities.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:44 am)Although I agree with you on it earning some to offset that accumulated debt, there will be very few Volts exported to China. Production of vehicles is localized in the country where the vehicle is being sold. Look at all the foreign companies who have moved production to the United States. Holden will be producing and selling the Volt in Australia around 2012. The Ampera, the Volt’s sister model in Europe with some Volt being exported to Europe from the United States. And when you consider what GM ha done through the Years, it will be produced in Canada. Exporting of automobiles from one country to another has been recognized as not asprofitable as setting up a production plant in the country where they will be sold. So don’t worry about many Volts being exported to China. Initially some will be exported to get feedback on marketability of the model. Once they find there is a demand, construction of production facilities follows in short order.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:46 am)And then there is the environmental cost of moving all those things over the seas. And where does the oil for those HUGE vessels come from? If our point in loving the Volt is to get us off oil, we should want these vehicles to be fabricated where they are purchased. Yeah, someone will bring up car parts and I am sure some things will require shipping for ultimate assembly, but I bet many parts can be fabricated locally. And the stupidest thing in the world is to ship parts from one place, assemble them in another and then ship the final product back to where many of the parts came from.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:56 am)Tennessee-built LEAFs should qualify for the $7500 tax credit, but not Japanese-built LEAFs. Given the sad, slow state of our economy, it doesn’t make sense for government to incentivize foreign made products equally and even with greater tax breaks than comparable American made products. As it now stands, Californians would get $12,500 in state and federal tax credits with the Japanese made LEAF, but only $7,500 with the Michigan-made Volt. That is simply flat wrong.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:57 am)Volt will get HOV status! See this link:
http://jalopnik.com/5626595/newly+introduced-law-allows-chevy-volt-in-california-hov-lanes
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:00 am)Not quite fast enough. Even if the cost of building a Volt in China doubles, it would still be half of what it would be to build one in the US. I’m excluding civil grants and loans. Tariff, quality, and exchange rates play an important role, no doubt, but not nearly as much as the reality that the average wage earner, both blue and white collar, would blush at (or go on strike to get) what we make over here.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:00 am)Like a Corvoltte
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:02 am)See my post #58 and #63. There are very good reasons why foreign cars shoud be eligible for the rebate.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:03 am)Nope, it breaks my heart , but the ‘Beatniks drivin’ Jalopies’ got it wrong this time. It’s off topic, so I won’t expound on it all here, but if you check what Chelsea Sexton, Plug in America & others that track the EV scene in California full time on google, you’ll see Volt’s gotta wait ’til 2013 for HOV.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:04 am)I’d like a Camarohm! Or maybe an kwHHR!…
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:05 am)Yes. But they can get 41k for a Volt here. I very much doubt they’ll charge the same price in China.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:10 am)And how long do they think they’ll be able to hold onto any intellectual property whatsoever once they do that?
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:14 am)They better plan their cross country route carefully.
Thousands of trucks stuck in China traffic jam
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iPxX7xLgeu-0gKTjLyU_TY1f7TtgD9I0D0N01
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:18 am)The $7500.00 rebate help dealerships sell in this market. All to often I hear many here bash GM and other American car manufacturers for poor quality as why foreign cars sell better. So then, we don’t give the rebate on a very large segment of the dealers sales!?! How does that help them? It only results in a slowing of the incentives effectiveness. The object of the rebate is targeted at sales within the United States.
I have posted here today about how automotive manufacturers localize production where the vehicle are being sold. Initially, an OEM designs and builds a car which at first it sells in its home market and then begins by exporting abroad. In short order, that new model is being built regionally much closer to where the market is. Nissan is a prime example and the one you have chosen to speak up against the rebate on foreign cars. But go to the link, I posted before to see what effect Nissan’s new Leaf plant will have:
http://www.allbusiness.com/human-resources/workforce-management-hiring-job-listing/1143233-1.html
It’s not just about trying to sell more American made products, it’s about creating on atmosphere where companies see opportunities to invest in the United States and assist American businesses like the car dealers get back on their feet.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:19 am)I think that actually has more to do with the $1.4 billion dollar federal low interest loan…
http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Nissan-Breaks-Ground-On-Leaf-Battery-Plant-052610.aspx?menuid=
And if corporations based their manufacturing on where they could get the most profits for their goods, we wouldn’t have a trade deficit in pharmaceuticals.
+4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:19 am)I completely agree. Why should my tax dollars go to Japan?
They should stay right here and help Americans.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:22 am)I went into a pocketbook store a few weeks ago. I asked them where the bags were made. They still had some made in New York left from before they moved production to Taiwan. Apparently, they’d moved production about a few months ago…
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:23 am)Can I have one in Victory Red?!
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:25 am)How bout a +10 for this comment. Yeah, going forward all the major manufacuters will have to produce globally. Which also means that their suppliers will have to be global as well.
Here is a terrific article from the NY Times describing the financial hurt Toyota is in because it didn’t take this lesson to heart. A must read. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/business/global/03toyota.html?_r=1&ref=automobiles
Applied to the Volt, what this means is that GM can use global production numbers to get its volumes up and therefore the cost and price for the Volt down. The trick is to get to 500,000 Volts or related vehicles a year. In order to do that GM has to produce these all over the world — NA is simply not going to absorb this many units any time soon. So rather than worrying about the fact that GM is going to do a dog & pony show in China we should be worrying about when GM is going to ramp up production in the EU. We need Volts here, there, and everywhere. IOW Volts priced comfortably under $30K sans rebates won’t happen until worldwide production of EREVs is in full swing.
Having said that, it would seem that the Volt in its current incarnation is too expensive for the Chinese market, so the first big production push outside NA should be the Ampera in Europe. It’s disappointing we haven’t heard anything on this front in a while.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:25 am)The Chinese are currently building the largest hydroelectric project in history, with a finished capacity equal to 15 nuclear plants. Sure, it’s controversial; any construction on this scale would be.
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/greatwall/
… Agreed, but in establishing a Thorium fuel cycle. JMO …
-2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:27 am)You could be helpful and post a link to your claim. There is no good reason for California to not give HOV status to the Volt! I’m more inclined to believe that a bill will be passed to that effect. Especially when all the complaints being made here about aiding and abating the foreign companies but not our own! What do you think the voters of California will say about it?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-11
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:27 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:29 am)China is friendly? Personally, I think they’ve done more damage to the US than Saudi Arabia. They’re not exactly a shining light of human rights in their own country. They’re not even remotely cooperative when it comes to North Korea, or nuclear arms containment. And they’ve done immense damage to the US economy in general.
The only reason the Japanese manufacturers set up shop here was Reagan’s trade quotas. I think that’s a classic case of US “protectionism” creating US jobs.
And, by the way, Toyota still exports 50% of its cars from Japan. Which is why they are so vulnerable to the yen.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/business/global/03toyota.html?_r=2&hpw
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:33 am)Half our trade deficit is oil. Anyhow, if you didn’t see the NY Times article I cited at #80, check it out. Basically auto makers are going to have to move manufacturing to the market they want to sell in. The days of producing domestically and exporting are numbered.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:46 am)If GM sets up shop in China to build Volts on such a large scale, won’t LG Chem (or some maker of equivalent cells) be forced to set up there, as well? Increasing the overall supply of Volt-ready batteries may have (positive) global consequences …
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:47 am)I read the same article. And what I got from it–the Japanese government is going to have to go to greater lengths to keep the yen cheaper.
As long as the Chinese government is pegging the yuan to the dollar (and I don’t think that’s going to stop anytime soon), it’s hard to see how exchange rate fluctuations are going to solve all of our problems.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:49 am)I agree, this article is a must read. I just made a comment about the environmental costs of shipping. I strongly focus on the environment, but this article shows that all goals merge into one. There are many here with the protectionist slant of buying American, and some who specifically point out the advantage of foreign cars that are domestically fabricated. Well, ignore for a moment that you are American and assume you have the same patriotic feelings about your own country wherever you. This article, combined with my earlier statements about the environmental costs of shipping, show that locally fabricated goods are a win-win.
Definitely read this item. It will highlight how Toyota got burned just because its own currency surged. Any company with a global presence ought to understand the distinct advantages of local fabrication and supply. It seems counter-intuitive, but the effect of your own economy surging ends up hurting your bottom line. So we stop putting so much middle east oil into those container ships and people and planet benefit- and the terrorists become a footnote!
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:50 am)Economies of scale matters more than labor costs. So if a government is willing to subsidize the initial build up, the country in question is left with a permanent competitive advantage. (At least until another government subsidizes the building in their country.)
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:52 am)Nicely done, but … Haiku is Japanese …
[+1] anyway!
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:53 am)The localization of manufacturing by multinational companies has been going on for a long time now. It’s not just beginning but has been part of their business plans. Exporting not only has the costs of shipping abroad but often is meet by trade tariffs meant to protect the countries competing businesses to which they are exporting.
Another problem exists in the need for skilled labor to produce the merchandise. Countries like China won’t have that problem because they have huge human resources. Korea and Japan, Germany, and other small countries must resort to producing their merchandise where they are selling in order to expand to new markets. Also, this permits tailoring the product for its local market. The Ampera is a good example; European styling is much different than in the U.S.
It also allows those foreign companies to more easily service their customers. Sihi Pumps, a Canadian, subsidiary of Seiman & Hinch (sic) GMBH, the parent company in Germany, started with a repair shop on Grand Island, New York to repair any pumps sold to U.S. customers. It lowered the cost of shipping, eliminated Customs problems and delays, and related documentation costs, while quickening turn around time on repairs. Eventually, the Canadian subsidiary built its own building about a half a mile away for its sales force. Following this new building was expansion to include some assembly of a segment of their pump lines. I have seen companies actually reverse their corporate location from Canada to the United States. It’s an evolutionary process that I have witnessed time and again on my job before I retired.
It is far cheaper and beneficial for a foreign company to set up shop within the country where it will be selling. This has been going on for a long time. As the economy gets rolling again, we will see more investment by foreign manufacturers bringing the production of their goods to the United States. China will likely be an exception and will continue to export to markets around the world for some years to come. But eventually, they, too, will be setting up in the foreign countries to which they have been exporting to. As the World turns!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:56 am)For the record, I don’t have a problem with GM building in China for the Chinese market. I do have a problem with them putting new tech there were it can and will be stolen. And, b) I have an even bigger problem with them producing in China for the US market, which is what I expect to happen. They’re already buying parts from there.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:56 am)Anyone spent time in Western China? Eastern China, between Beijing and out to Taiwan, seems to get the most exposure to what we know of that vast country.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:58 am)It was not my intent to be UNhelpful, but this is a confusing issue that’s OT & I don’t want to hi-jack this thread. Just type “Volt HOV” in google search if you want more about this. Here are a couple of correct, reliable quotes & their links…
“(HOV approval) will be more like mid-2012 when 2013 models are starting to be built. But (Volts) have been approved for California HOV in the future, so that’s a good thing – even if the timing isn’t ideal.” — Phil Colley, GM spokesman at http://www.facebook.com/chevroletvolt
“The general idea (of SB535) is good, Shad- it’s the metric used that’s not. As a freeway incentive, it should prioritize vehicles that can operate in EV mode at freeway speeds. Changing SB535 to use ATPZEV as the only metric now means that the PHEV Prius…, which can’t operate at freeway speeds and is negligibly better than a regular Prius under those conditions will get in, leaving us open to lots of gaming. We’re already hearing from folks who plan to buy them and never plug them in, since the tax credits will cover most of the incremental cost. Meanwhile, the Gen I Volt (and likely Fisker) which for most people will never use gas in a standard commute- what the lanes were meant to address in the first place- doesn’t get in.” Chelsea Sexton at http://www.facebook.com/chevroletvolt#!/evchels?ref=ts
PS: Jalopnik wasn’t the only site that got this wrong; so did the vaunted Autoblog!
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:58 am)I’m surprised no one has taken this nugget and run with it. A BEV will require even more battery cells than the Chinese Volt. Hidden behind these announcements is the implicit creation of a new source of batteries. Even if they are only used in the Chinese market, they will be beneficial to us here by not being a drain on LG’s US and Korean facilities. If the cells are fully equivalent to LG’s, I’m thinking the cost to ship a couple of container-loads of battery back to the US will be less than sending a shipload of assembled automobiles …
This has the potential to positively impact US Volt production quotas.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:58 am)Absolutely Ditto! So does the rest of the World contribute to the Chinese pot!
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:04 am)And somehow that “localization” always winds up with production intended for the US market moving overseas. Because the barriers to our markets are the lowest in the world. Basically, it’s often cheaper to produce everything in one factory rather than split production into two factories. It’s even cheaper if the government of a country is willing to pay to have those factories located in that country.
So we should just accept a permanent trade deficit? Haven’t we lost enough productive capacity?
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:06 am)They could drive the Volt from Shanghai to the Western edge of the country. 5200km. They probably shouldn’t call it the Freedom Drive. How about Drive of the Rising Sun.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:08 am)Actually, China is doing just that – they are working with Westinghouse and in fact are committed to building quite a few AP1000s:
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/C_Westinghouse_works_on_Chinese_contracts_2408101.html
What’s more, they are building a “Nuclear Industrial Park” that will centralize some of the common engineering and construction preparation work:
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-Construction_of_Chinese_Nuclear_City_to_start_soon-1608104.html
China has realized, as France, India, and Russia has, the potential that nuclear has for producing clean, reliable energy.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:13 am)Enlighten me… how can anyone short of Chinese Communist Party officials afford a Volt, when everything (and everyone) is the property of the state?
My 2 cents: China needs working models of the Volt to reverse engineer them, recreate the tools, dies, and technology to replicate the manufacturing process, then all they need to do is round up enough political prisoners to produce their version of the Volt at a far lower price.
Or I could be a little paranoid. But after poison dog food, lead painted children’s toys, and drywall laced with toxic chemicals (remember Katrina?), I am a somewhat concerned about China’s sense of fair play.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:17 am)Laura, sad to hear about the bag industry, but in industrial manufacturing I think the trend is changing a bit. Good article Don. I’ve read several article’s in my trade magazines describing all of the problems & costs of exporting your work to China, and how companies are realizing there is no potential gain, and a huge loss of control. If I find an article i’ll post it, but i’m off to the airport. Flying to Boston in 3hrs… EARL..here i come.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:18 am)The Japanese government is out of ammo. The Yen is going to continue to appreciate over the longer term IMO. It’s what happens when you have a failure of aggregate demand.
Certainly exchange rates won’t solve all or even most problems, but companies are realizing that chasing low labor rates won’t work forever. Some manufacturing is already being brought back stateside, as is BTW even some customer care. Maybe for shoes it will still hold because that type of production is pretty easy to move, but as you get more towards higher end manufacturing labor rates aren’t the most critical issue. For example, Germany has very high labor rates but Germany is an export machine.
I will admit, however, that I’ve been disappointed that the Obama Administration hasn’t been more forceful on the Yuan. The Bush Administration was hopeless but I had higher hopes for Obama. So far they haven’t been realized as the willingness to confront China on its currency manipulation has been marginally not significantly better.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:28 am)I don’t know. Maybe many many people work for the Govt. Who ever they are or work for, they buy many many nice cars in China. Audi’s were everywhere I looked a few months ago on a trip. A rolls royce passed by. Many large mercedes, buicks, etc. I also saw scores of Brand New Chevy Cruzes running around.
I guess for the auto manufacturers it does not matter if the buyer is a slave to the state or not. A sale is a sale.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:29 am)That’s a gross over simplification. While it’s true that the large industries and banks are state owned, all the smaller stuff is all private. FWIW an amusing observation is that historically Chinese businessmen have had three sets of books: One for the government. One for their partners. And one for themselves.
Lots of very wealthy businesspeople in China.
Despite the recent successes, over the long term the structure will doubtless fail, in part because governments aren’t that great at allocating capital and in part because, when it does allocate capital, it all gets allocated to the same things, so every mistake is truly major. Additionally, as Japan is finding out, a failure of domestic demand, which China suffers from, is worse from an economic standpoint than profligate spending.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:29 am)“The Long March” is a catchy phrase in China. Wouldn’t hurt to associate the Volt with that. You could route it from Yudu in the province of Jiangxi, to Yan’an in Shaanxi.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:31 am)I don’t know how many of you have seen a Tesla up close, but I just saw a red one a few minutes ago. I have two pictures of it, but how do I post them here?
Raymond
+4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:43 am)Initially VOLT could probably go for higher than $41K. China is a funky system. I traveled there in 2006 for business. There were about 2000 people in our manufacturing operation and I would say the top 25 managers were ultra rich they drove high end Escalade’s and Buicks. GM had a huge presence. There were other sports cars as well. If you look at China through a wide angle lens, all you see is the poverty and mass of people. You pull into financial districts and it is crammed with high end cars & trucks. The same with manufacturing plants. Over 1500 bikes, motor scooters, etc. Then get to the managers parking area and you see 20-40 Caddy’s.
The rich like their toys in China. And for the rich there (and only the rich), I think the higher the price the more they will go for it. with about 1.4 billion people in China you can easily find 15,000,000 or more very rich people for this market.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:44 am)The NYTimes article sight states the same thing I have said in response to earlier comments. The currency issue wasn’t one of the factors I mentioned in my posts. GM has realized these factors for a long time.
In Europe, they now have Opel which has the sister vehicle of the Volt, the Ampera. In Australia, Holden will be producing and selling the Volt in 2012. In England, Vauxhall. We have heard about joint ventures with Indian companies; General Motors India has just commissioned a new 160,000 unit engine plant:
http://sify.com/finance/general-motors-to-commission-powertrain-engine-plant-news-default-kjdqEhhigec.html
These are just a few of the examples of this concept that GM has in place and demonstrates that their global strategy has been in place for some time now. Each market is different and will determine if and when Volt production facilities will be built in those markets. The expansion of Volt production into China would be a giant step in meeting that 500,000 unit goal. By the time 2013 rolls around. the price of the Volt will be in the range where every Chevrolet car should be; One that the average owner can afford.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:45 am)Right click on the images 1 at a time, copy the image location, then paste it in the small window after clicking the green “clicking here” below Submit Comment. Repeat for each image.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:50 am)Your ‘dealerships need help too’ argument is faulty because it wrongly assumes that ‘a very large segment of dealer sales’ would be affected by cutting tax incentives on Japanese-built LEAFs. I don’t think there is a Nissan dealer that exists that plans on depending upon the LEAF to pay its rent and utility bills. They will continue to profit from all the Pathfinders and Altimas and all the other Nissan models they have been selling and will continue to be selling into the future.
And anyway, it is not government responsibility to ensure companies make a profit.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:50 am)LRGVProVolt:
My response to your Volt HOV comment is post #94 (delayed for moderation, so Lyle also saw it)
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:53 am)I agree. But I still expect the Japanese government to give it a shot. They almost have to. And if interest rates ever pick up here…
Absolutely labor rates aren’t the only factor. Neither is the exchange rate. Both matter. Both affect manufacturing location. But they are part of the larger picture. They are one tool that a government can use to lure manufacturing jobs and increase a country’s wealth and GDP.
I’m even more upset at his constant talking about “doubling our exports” as the solution to our unemployment issues. I think it would be a lot easier and create a lot more jobs, and be better for the environment, if they just focused on getting companies moving production intended for the US market back home.
Absolutely, trade can be a major source of economic benefit for everyone. But trade, in and of itself, at all costs should not be the goal.
-4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:53 am)This is really funny. US shouldn’t give tax credit to Americans to buy Leaf because China doesn’t give rebates to Chinese to buy Volt ?
BTW, Japanese govt gives $38,000 rebate to Japanese to buy Tesla Roadster.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/02/tesla-roadster-eligible-for-38-000-clean-energy-rebate-in-japan/
Nobody is stopping GM from selling Volts in Japan and applying to get rebates.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:53 am)Step One: Host the picture on the web somewhere. If you have a website, problem solved. Most people don’t, so go to http://www.tinypic.com and follow the prompts (Photobucket is also a popular free-hosting site). You don’t have to assign a tag to the image, though that field is available. Four links are output. The appropriate link for this site is the one which has “IMG” at the beginning and the end. (It’s handy to have a Wordpad document open so that you can copy the link there for later use, but you don’t have to).
Step Two: Open the editing box on this site, and paste the link you got from tinypic there.
IMPORTANT: You will need to edit “IMG” (at the beginning and end of the link) so that it is lower case: “img”.
Repeat for each image.
Add any text you would like, and “Submit.”
+5
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:58 am)Great just send a few to China so they can break them apart re-engineer them and resell a knock off for a quarter of the price. Standard Chinese practice.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:59 am)I agree. China’s consumption is actually a much lower percentage of GDP than it was in Japan. They’re headed for problems, IMHO. The only question is when.
But I don’t expect that to help the US. At all. There will always be a low wage country willing and eager to use those methods to industrialize. At some point, the US has got to do something to product its own economy.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:03 pm)Agreed. Besides, it’s highly unlikely that tax incentives specifically on the LEAF will induce someone to buy a car that they otherwise would not have. It’s far more likely that the sale will go to another company. And another US based dealer.
The US government should not give tax incentives to steer the American public away from domestic products towards imports. At least, IMHO. Tax incentives should favor domestically produced products.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:03 pm)Ooops, sorry Raymondjram. I assumed you knew Jackson’s Step 1. Thanks for #113, Jackson!!!
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:05 pm)Maybe. But GM still has to split any margin with their Chinese partner. Any margin they get on Volts sold in the US or Europe, they get to keep for themselves.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:14 pm)This is a very smart move by GM. Just remember, GM, as soon as you let them, Chinese engineers will reverse engineer the Volt in a matter of weeks. Soon, they will have very good copies on the market.
Also, it’s looking like Better Place is getting real good consideration in China. If the government says so, Better Place could get a massive project to put in swap stations and charge points all over China. China is one of the few large countries that has the power to get this done fast.
So, will China go the plug-in route or go all-in with the BEV?
A country that large would take several years for the BEV infrastructure to be put in place, even with a direct order to do so. Perhaps the Volt (and the cheap copies) is just what they need to get things rolling. Their pollution is so bad that big decisions are coming soon. Who will win? Only a few at the top know for sure.
+4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:15 pm)It’s not just that pocketbook place. I look at labels for everything. And a lot of high end clothing designers who used to produce in the US–made in china is starting to show up on their labels. I’m talking about seriously high end stuff. I saw a dress selling for $3000 dollars that was made in China! That was unheard of a couple of years ago. (And, no, I do not spend that kind of money on clothing. I was there for work.)
I’ve spoken to some designers about it, and apparently labor in China is getting more skilled, and it’s still a lot cheaper than in the US and in Europe. This is a huge problem for Italy. But it’s also affecting the US.
PS. I love Boston.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:17 pm)There goes more Chinese money and jobs to America.
Oh wait. Nevermind.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:39 pm)But with standard Chinese safety and reliability. I’ll stick with the American-built VOLT.
+4
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:43 pm)Negligible? Absolutely not!
See this:
It’s the first half of my commute to work. By the 4th segment, I was already driving at 70 MPH and continued at that speed for 9 miles. Notice the MPG is dramatically higher than a regular Prius.
And this:
It’s the final result of the commute. The round-trip drive, only recharging the night before, produced an outcome with MPG better by a wide margin.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (12:57 pm)That’s why it’s important for the US Gov to support A123 or something like it. Li – batteries are in their infancy. We can’t let ANOTHER emerging industry escape us.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (1:05 pm)This comment makes a lot of sense. The question is.. how to do it? Are there too many special interests that are limiting this option or is it something else… or both?
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (1:12 pm)You’re exactly right on this one. They will reverse engineer the thing as fast they can to build a replica made in China… that they will try to sell cheap here in America.
Is that really free market ? I don’t think so. Maybe it’s time to lockup the borders to ‘made in China’ products. Or at least have a hefty duty charge on it.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (1:26 pm)Wow, there’s a lot of old school protectionists in here. It’s not the 1950′s anymore, we have a global economy now. I’m a small business owner (10 employees) who does business in about 50 different countries. If we only focused on the US, we would really be limiting ourselves to about 11% of our total revenue and I probably would have created 0 jobs. I’m proud that I’m able to support 10 families with my business and that happens only by thinking globally and going after those markets.
GM is doing a smart thing in China, Europe, and anywhere else they can sell the Volt.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (1:35 pm)Everybody is always looking for the bad man hiding behind the rock. Local special interests to prevent production being moved back to NAM? I seriously doubt the local influences are weighted more heavily to keep production away. The problem is that we have become too price conscious as a society, the legal climate is too constricting, and corporate taxation is anti-competitive for the global market. We need to bring more value based assessment to purchasing decisions, tort reform, and move taxes from corporations to the end purchase (VAT tax).
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (1:39 pm)There are several reasons. A lot of US corporations spend a lot of money in Washington. But their interests are not really aligned with the US economy. Many of them make the majority of their profits overseas. And they benefit through labor arbitrage. Also, the US subsidiaries of foreign corporations are a powerful lobbying force.
Second, the US government’s focus has, since WWII, been more on geopolitical stability rather than the US economy. And they don’t want to antagonize any of our “allies” over anything as unimportant (to them) as jobs.
Third, any reorienting of our economy will cause some disruptions. Many politicians would rather postpone any pain they can until after they are in office.
Finally, there is still a strong belief among many economists that free markets will take care of everything. It’s almost a religion. If you really believe in infinite growth–we’re all moving to a place where everyone will be infinitely richer. And any job losses are something we have to endure in the meantime to get to that richer happier place.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (2:02 pm)And it’s name rhymes with “Jolt”!
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (2:07 pm)LOL, welcome to gm-volt.com. The opinions expressed here, may or may not reflect those of the management (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
+6
Sep 3rd, 2010 (2:13 pm)We should not offer discounted prices on the Volt to the Chinese until they start dropping prices on Kung Pao Chicken and Spring Rolls. Period.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (2:29 pm)I wish GM would focus on “taking care of their own” at home first, before sending to China. The Volt is a great idea..don’t get me wrong..I would love one, but GM is just so disappointing me with news like this and the high price that isn’t affordable to most people.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (2:31 pm)We’re all one big global family until you try to sell any American product in most other major markets. One big market except we give Nissan $7500 per car while the Japanese put a $20,000 tariff at least on the VOLT. China may turn out to be our best trading partner. That is a good thing… I feel if we had this fair trade with other markets like Japan Korea Germany ….GM would not have had to be helped by the government and Chrysler would still be American instead of a Italian company sucking billions out of our economy.
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (2:32 pm)Can I agree with you any more than I do about this topic? No, I cannot agree more. I know GM wants to make as much money as possible and China is an important market for them, but so is the good old USA. Take care of the USA and Canada demand first GM. China did not pull you out of bankruptcy and did not loan and/or grant you billions of dollars. You owe it to us to fill some of our demand first. Maybe China could get some Volts along with the rest of the world in late 2013 or 2014.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (3:12 pm)This comment could respond to a few recently made, so I won’t pick anyone in particular.
On my home, I have a total of 31 Evergreen PV solar panels, made right here in the good old US of A. 28 of these panels are grid tied to a single inverter and 3 directly run a DC pool pump. When it was time to do the office, I had another solar contractor come a courtin’ me to do that 57 panel 13+ KW job.
This time around, I was educated on the value of Enphase Microinverters- 1 for each panel. The concept was so superior, it was a no-brainer. Individual inverters enabled part of the array to be shadowed and not degrade the entire array. I could put panels on separate roof planes. I could start small and add more panels with time. This new contractor was going to use ‘Canadian Solar’ (ha ha- made in China). The original contractor tried waving the US flag. I got the spec sheet from Enphase and lots and lots of panels were on the list, but Evergreen was not allowed (some voltage rating was too low). I inquired of Evergreen but got NO RESPONSE. Ultimately, my original solar contractor ABANDONED its affiliation with Evergreen and I ended up with Canadian Solar (made in China) on my office roof.
Frankly, I am a bit wearied about reading all this stuff on tariffs, government subsidies, protectionism and all the rest. Sometimes, American companies lose business due to plain old COMPLACENCY (hello, old GM here?). It ANGERED me that Evergreen did not respond to my inquiries. I would have preferred to go with an American company, but just like GM has learned the hard way- you can’t ignore your domestic customers and assume patriotism is enough to keep ‘em coming back. Earlier, I stated that reduction of shipping foreign made goods is a win-win for everyone, but one of the reasons it exists in the first place is that SOMETIMES US made goods just don’t cut the mustard. You can point to cheap overseas labor and an unfair competitive advantage, but much of what we lost in this country was because of bad decisions, and ignorance of customer needs, by American companies.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (3:30 pm)My argument wasn’t based on any assumptions and certainly didn’t ignore other vehicles in their lineup. My comment shows how the economic stimulus rebate bolsters the economy. It has already been reported that they have over 56,000 orders for the Leaf. Does anyone know how many Nissan dealers there are? Plus they are moving toward manufacturing 150,000 per year at the Smyrna, Tennessee plant:
http://www.egmcartech.com/2010/05/26/nissan-breaks-ground-at-smyrna-tenn-plant-that-will-produce-batteries-and-leaf-in-2012/
That will be a significant number of vehicles. Most of the Leafs eligible for the rebate will be American made. May I repeat what I said previously:
The initial production of any new vehicle is usually made in the companies home land and then exported to other countries. Within a short time, that model is made in the country where the car is sold. As evidenced here, Nissan planned ahead for expansion of its manufacturing facilities here in the U.S. to build over 150,000 Nissan Leaf cars beginning in 2012.
The ability to meet a market demand of 150,000 Leaf vehicles will add significantly to Nissan dealers bottom line. The initial sales of Japanese made Nissan Leaf will help increase sales for Nissan dealers while the BEV is being introduced to the U.S. market. It is better to generate a market by importing the first vehicles that later supporting production of them in a domestic plant.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (3:32 pm)Is there even a significant segment of the population there that can afford a Volt in China? Yes, I’m aware that in any poor country there will be at least a few tycoons and billionaires but I doubt those would be buying Volts… Isn’t the GDP there relatively low?
-7
Sep 3rd, 2010 (3:59 pm)When GM decides to build the Volt in China will i be able to import the vehicle using Alibaba.com? LOL!!!!!!
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:00 pm)I think things like this will fluctuate, as oil production becomes more and more constrained shipping costs will likely go up significantly. When this happens I expect to see some manufacturing return here, it won’t happen overnight, and for some items it may not happen, but I can’t help but feel there will be a tipping point for many goods.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:02 pm)An electric bike or its battery pack can be brought indoors for charging. Cars will have to be charged at the curb or wherever parked and there’s going to be precious few electrical outlets in those locations. Chinese infrastructure is a very long way from ready to take on widespread EV charging.
And what makes you think people riding electric bikes are good prospects for anything? Most Chinese e-bikes are pretty crappy and retail for well under $1000. They’re used by the lower middle class. They are not the people who will shell out $41,000 for a car.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:23 pm)To say that American companies were ignorant of customer needs just seems wrong to me. Many of the decissions that U.S. companies made were the direct result of cheap foreign goods that took what market share they had
In order to expand product to other markets, it must be introduced there first.
Therefore, some American made Volts will need to be exported to China. GM according to its Global Business Plan builds product at regional centers close to where the product is sold. China has such a huge population that it must keep its people employed and productive; its leaders will want the Volts manufactured at Shanghai GM.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:35 pm)You just have not been to China in recent years…
I’ll say it again… China is a tale of two countries. 1.4 billion people total… Most living in poverty or at least what we would call poverty (or worse). But probably 1-2% are the elite political party leaders and captains of industry who are ultra rich. Another 2-4% are paid well to keep the status quo. Those people live a very different lifestyle in gated cities or gated communities in big cities. The system is very corrupt, but if you know how to work the system you can sell there very successfully. And while 1.3 billion could never afford a VOLT or the even the Leaf, there is still 100 million people to go after.
Then after that, if you can come up with a lower price vehicle, you can go after the next 200 million people, because the next group will save for years to achieve the status of car owner.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:44 pm)Not by a long shot. GM has the largest foreign car market share but that is tiny compared to the local Chinese companies.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:50 pm)Sorry that this tooks so long to respond to LauraM.
First I am not sure where your coming with “I think that actually has more to do with the $1.4 billion dollar federal low interest loan.” Michigan Guy stated in post #36: “Congress should rescind the $7500 incentive for anyone buying a foreign made electric car like the NIssan Leaf and give it ONLY to American cars like the Chevy Volt. ” I was trying to show a justification for giving the rebate for all vehicles, even those made abroad. As we have seen, the vehicles very often get built in the country in which they are sold. Creating production facilities in major markets is common business practice in the automotive industry; one that GM follows, not just Nissan.
What applies to one industry isn’t always utilized in another industry or even applicable. Since we are trying to explain what is happening in the automotive industry because of EV’s coming to market, I don’t think pharmaceutics is relevant. JMO.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Thanks for including the link; it supports what I said.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:50 pm)The Leaf will initially be built in Japan. Our tax money is being used to support the start of a new product from Japanese industry.
Thsi is criminal. The japanes must be laughing at us behind closed doors.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:51 pm)Who do you think you are fooling?
The first 15 minute graphic can’t include 70 mph for 9 miles (takes 7.7 mins.) and 5.2 miles (14.2 – 9) in 7.3 mins. (15 – 7.7) at 42.7 mph and come up with a 38 mph average for the 14.2 mile trip.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:54 pm)Way to lighten things up. +1 I think though that the complaint is that they have lowered prices by systematically devaluing the Yuan! LOL
Sep 3rd, 2010 (4:55 pm)Leading Foreign owners of US Treasury Securities (May 2010)
Nation Billions (USD) Percentage
People’s Republic of China 867.7 21.9%
P.R. China (Hong Kong) 145.7 3.7
Japan 786.7 19.8
United Kingdom 350.0 8.8
Brazil 161.4 4.1
Russia 126.8 3.2
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (5:03 pm)The “English Teacher” cannot spell. I suspect many other countries are laughing at us too. We need to eliminate poor quality teachers and replace with highly paid experts in the various fields.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (5:04 pm)Just for that my attempt at a jue ju (google it):
New Sail is coming;
For sale in China.
Hopeful owners see;
progress through website.
Not for the US.
You have your Voltech,
Tesla, Aptera,
Leaf and Ampera.
-Book
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (5:14 pm)It’s very possible that they didn’t reply because they simply went out of business. Unfortunately, Chinese tech is actually more advanced than American tech (probably because they can steal technology from numerous other companies. American’s can’t. And their R&D is underwritten by their government). So American companies can’t keep up.
And it’s hard to give “good customer service” when you’re pretty sure you’re going to go out of business very very soon.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (5:23 pm)OK. Then let’s talk about the Prius. The US state and federal governments issued numerous tax deductions for the Prius for consumers. And the first ones got HOV stickers in California. (And. I believe, in some other states.) All Prius’s are still being assembled in Japan. They are building an assembly plant to build them here. Now. After most of those tax credits expired.
My point was that, unless the government puts restrictions on access to the tax credits on the buy side, then, no, production does necessarily not follow consumption. Eventually, with autos, some degree of production probably will. But, in the meantime, we’ve lost jobs. And technical know how.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (5:25 pm)You do know the US government can print as many dollars as they want? Whenever they want.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (5:30 pm)The biggest eroding factor is lower wages that exist in foreign countries; wholesale companies will always go to the country where they can cut costs, and wages are where they start looking. The potential locations are examined to see what other advantages exist for each. Finally after each factor is weighed, the final location of new production is chosen. A number of reasons my be found to drop a site from consideration. One such reason, could be political instability of a country or region. Certain manufacturing segments in China are moving from one region to another where labor rates are lower because the existing region has demanded higher wages.
The Taiwanese are famous for copying a product, producing it at much lower cost, and overtaking the markets of U.S. companies. Within the last decade or so, China has been the country of choice because of their cheap labor force. My biggest gripe with their goods is the inferior quality; even though the quality has improved, I still can find various problems with what they produce. Toxic materials used in the goods seems to be the latest problem. For example, children jewelry with the heavy metal cadmium in it. U.S. products were once considered the best in the world. As labor rates threatened the competitiveness of U.S. products, they had to be made cheaper and quality suffered. The easiest option to consumers was the choice of cheaper foreign goods that had the appearance of being equal quality but weren’t. Many American just accepted them since they didn’t cost a lot and could just be replaced. This is what really killed much of the American manufacturing base.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (6:04 pm)Right, but when you print dollars you are simply stealing money from people who save dollars, because you make those dollars less valuable. And who has saved more dollars than anyone? The Chinese.
So, the Chinese did bailout GM.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (6:20 pm)Lots of interesting advancements in conversion electronics. Good installers and the consistent quality you get in panels today lessen the advantage of microinverters but don’t eliminate it. If you haven’t seen it, here’s an interesting story about a Clarian Sunfish which is more or less plug and play — you can plug the output right into a standard outlet.
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/for-lean-budgets-a-plug-and-play-solar-system/#more-66731
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (6:22 pm)This
is being replaced
by this.
=D-Volt
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (7:58 pm)NOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
They will steal our technology.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:00 pm)I am guessing that Laura is smart enough to know what happens if the government prints money. She must have forgotten to put the [LOLOLOL or ROFLFAO or the smug
] at the end of her comment! 
You do know that Roosevelt took us off the Gold Standard in the 1933?…. Talk about scary! You need to read about “Executive Order 6102…. Anyway after that it was a free for all at the Treasury printing office!
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:43 pm)Gold? Tying your money supply to a commodity was never exactly a sensible idea. If you’re going to do that, why not go whole hog and tie it to a perishable commodity — like bananas.
-8
Sep 3rd, 2010 (8:51 pm)That assumption is incorrect.
It was my first day driving the PHV. I sat in the garage still plugged in taking lots and lots of photos before leaving. That counts against the average speed, since the system is running.
In fact, that’s the very purpose of the number… to include the motionless part of driving. You’d be surprised how quickly the stoplights alone add up… not to mention me trying to document the system as thoroughly as possible prior to venturing out.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:22 pm)Google Fight!
T Battery vs Gulf Oil Spill
http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=T+battery&word2=Gulf+Oil+Spill
=D-Volt
+3
Sep 3rd, 2010 (9:48 pm)If you were driving a Volt you wouldn’t have used any gas and you wouldn’t have had a pollution creating cold start. Out of curiosity, did you cut the graph off because the drive in the plug-in closely resembled the drive in the non plug-in version? Not sure why you think it proves nasaman wrong. In fact it seems like your graph is pretty good evidence of why the Volt is so superior to the plug-in Prius.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:07 pm)80 MPG is quite a big improvement over the 55 MPG, hardly negligible.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:28 pm)Roll em all together and have a Voltec SSR?
Electric only with a 100 mile range would work for me. Then if I really cared, a range extender could fit in the bed?
You have my color!
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:39 pm)I don’t know much about this author but I’d like to post his latest editorial on just where our dollars go when we would buy a BYD. (nevermind everything else we buy manufactured over there!)
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.7178/pub_detail.asp
I’m not a military hawk but I would like to see a smaller Chinese navy. The report says China is developing a carrier killer ballistic missile, a weapon that caught my eye among others, to prevent an aircraft carrier from having an effective deployment range to Chinese protected waters.
I am not a big fan of dollar stores either.
-1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:50 pm)Proud as a peacock, huh. It’s nice to see you enjoy your toy.
I still don’t know why you’re posting these numbers on a Volt site.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (10:53 pm)Really? I have seen the Volt mentioned in the WSJ at least a 100 times. Plus it is in all the automotive web sites. Most people know that the supply is limited also. Have you not oversold your supply? I think it took the Camaro a year to fill up the pipeline and sit on the dealer lot. You could correct me on that. How many years will it take the Volt to do that? I think there is plenty of pent up demand. Price makes it tough for most folks though.
Really Really Nice, I like it. They should promote you.
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:05 pm)The per capita income is 3,600 per person.
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:05 pm)Do you know how great it is to read that?
If a Volt enthusiast doesn’t believe it actually happened, a consumer curious about buying a PHV will find it unbelievable!
Toyota tossed me a FOB and said “have fun”, knowing I’d drive it a bunch and take a tons of photos. Each trip started with MPG well over 100 no matter what speed I drove. Then when both EV sub-packs became depleted, efficiency reverted to regular hybrid MPG.
The end result was a big boost at an affordable price. That’s the point. Mainstream sales require balance, a concept some apparently cannot see nor desire… because they question why I post on the site… yet another similarity to Two-Mode history… further confirmation that the first generation won’t be a draw beyond enthusiasts.
Appealing to the masses is the goal, to replace traditional vehicle production quickly.
+2
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:07 pm)A year ago local radio had a 5 second ad for the Volt nearly each morning. Just Equinox and Traverse ads now. GM doesn’t need to advertise the Volt until the first sells AFTER it reaches a dealership. This may be Spring of 2012.
=D-Volt
+1
Sep 3rd, 2010 (11:09 pm)hi,
Thanks for the update. You and Koz have provided 2 perspectives. I see merits in both. My experiences have me believing there is a lot of lobbying that does limit or slow down laws, rules, incentives etc. to keeping jobs here.
Plus the implications about polices since WWII not keeping up with the changing economic realities of cheaper labor and other advantages overseas is disturbing (my interpretation of what you stated).
I keep reading about the lack of a level playing field in manufacturing, labor, etc …. So one should ask the economists ( as you noted) or “others that know” to explain what is a “free market” where this country can really compete?
thanks again.
Sep 4th, 2010 (12:05 am)I understand your explanation.
I’ve put 73,379 miles on my 2004 Prius using 1440.7 gals for a 50.9 mpg average and am aware of the inaccuracies the displays can show.
How about resetting the trip meter when you hit 70 mph and take a picture after 9+ miles showing a trip at 70 mph and 99.9 mpg. Then maybe I’ll be a believer.
Sep 4th, 2010 (12:48 am)Looking good in September 2010.
Start of production assembly (Job 1) in 10 weeks. Go Volt!
=D-Volt
Sep 4th, 2010 (1:10 am)You mean – like this?
2011 Piaggio Mp3 Plug-in Hybrid Scooter.
300cc Plugs in, lithium pack – details are sketchy, but I believe it goes 12 miles all electric. Freeway speeds are mixed gas/electric.
The smaller one is already on sale in Europe but sales have been very slow – thus the push back of USA introduction – Looks like we may get the bigger version, hopefully with better EV range and speed. Many sites are reporting Piaggio will offer a slightly wider wheelbase model that does not require a motorcycle endorsement!
RECHARGE!
James
+1
Sep 4th, 2010 (5:16 am)Right before arriving at work, I snapped this:
Resetting would have been pointless. The display only goes up to 99.9 MPG and the 16.6 miles isn’t all EV anyway. The plug-in gets boost, hence an HV ratio. On the scangauge, it read 160 MPG.
The goals of PHV are different from Volt.
Sep 4th, 2010 (7:17 am)So you drove 16.2 miles, and only 0.3 miles were EV miles?
Is that right, or I am not reading your picture correctly (resolution makes it difficult to see the details)
Sep 4th, 2010 (7:30 am)Foreign made or foreign owned? Big difference, since many US based brands are built outside of the US. Also, what about foreign content? What percent of foreign content is acceptable to you? 0%?
Sep 4th, 2010 (9:30 am)From your original post you said “By the 4th segment, I was already driving at 70 MPH and continued at that speed for 9 miles.”
The 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10, 11th, segments show 100 mpg and 8th shows 75+ mpg. Therefore, you implied that you were getting 775/8 = 96.9 mpg while driving at 70 mph. Hence, my comment to reset the trip meter when you hit 70 mph and take a picture after driving that 9 miles showing a trip length of 9 miles at 70 mph and 99.9 mpg.
+1
Sep 4th, 2010 (10:44 am)Since many of those PHEV Priuses will replace regular ICE vehicles, it’s 25mpg to 80mpg. A very significant difference.
Sep 4th, 2010 (11:42 am)How do you know it will be “affordable?” I expect you’re right but has Toyota divulged anything on pricing?
Sep 4th, 2010 (11:51 am)It’s probably better not to make assumptions about others, it may help prevent you looking like a fool; I’ve been there twice in the last year alone. A very close relative lives there and we communicate extensively and frequently. I’ve been to Beijing and Shanghai and several of the smaller cities.
You can not extrapolate from electric bikes to an electric car market. The price difference is on the order of a factor of 40. It’s like saying the people buying stripper Chevy Aveos are good prospects for a top of the line Lexus or Mercedes.
+1
Sep 4th, 2010 (1:12 pm)The battery-pack is only 5.2 kWh and it is divided into sub-packs. The smaller capacity obviously keeps the price in check. The division allows less expensive thermal management (air rather than liquid). And they intend on offering it with a mid-grade package, rather than high-end. They took GM’s own recommendation of “nicely under $30,000″ quite seriously.
Full hybrids are opportunistic chargers, taking advantage of the running engine for the sake of adding a little to the battery while also using that to maintain a more efficient RPM. So, you’ll see the EV value go up while you drive from that, fuel-cut on hills, regenerative braking, and during hard acceleration.
Full hybrids work different. In fact, there’s not a constant cruise rate. Engine & Motor play are surprisingly active… again with the opportunistic charging. That comes from having the components with in the PSD directly connected rather than having to engage. So, it literally takes advantage of just a second or two of charging or discharging.
It’s the reason I always hoped Volt could be an ally; those fundamental differences could serve different needs.
Sep 4th, 2010 (2:59 pm)In the next thread, carcus posted a link to a Motor Trend evaluation. M/T put $26,500(est) on the spec sheet. If true, that would absolutely be “nicely under $30,000!”
Sep 4th, 2010 (3:23 pm)I understand how hybrids work. As I stated in post #175 I’m a Prius owner.
But you are still not addressing my question. In post #123 you showed a display screen for a 14.2 mile trip at 99.9 mpg and you stated that “By the 4th segment, I was already driving at 70 MPH and continued at that speed for 9 miles.” Looking at the pictured display the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 10, 11th, segments show 100 mpg and 8th shows 75+ mpg. Therefore, you implied that you were getting 775/8 = 96.9 mpg while driving at 70 mph. If that’s not what you meant, fine. But if that is what you meant, I’m saying you could make me a believer by resetting the trip display when you reach 70 mph, i.e. start a new trip, drive your 9 miles at 70 mph, then take a picture of the display (probably better to have a passenger take the picture at 70 mph). If what you stated in post #123 is correct, it should show a 9-mile trip at 70 mph and ≈ 97 mpg.
Sep 4th, 2010 (3:50 pm)Correction to above: post #123 should be post #124. The whole thrust of #124 was to show that PHV does perform better than standard Prius at highway speeds.
Sep 4th, 2010 (9:48 pm)In the not-to-distant future, China & the US could potentially go to war over oil resources.
A vehicle like the Volt could literally prevent a war.
+1
Sep 7th, 2010 (1:25 pm)Really? Can you please show us ALL the sticker price of the Volt? $41K is what the announced price is, ~8K more than what you say “average price people pay”.