The Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) published the results of their new study called Electric Vehicles: The Future of Driving in which American adults were surveyed online about their opinion of pure electric cars.
The study revealed a full 40% of US adults planned to test drive an electric vehicle and are open to the idea of purchasing one. Forty-two percent said they are likely to follow news reports about electric cars. Almost one third (32%) said they were familiar or very familiar with hybrid cars, but only 25% said they were familiar with electric cars.
The chief reasons people cited for wanting to own an electric car were positive environmental impact and reduced operating costs. Over three-quarters (78%) said the ability of these cars to drive without gasoline was the major reason for wanting one, while 67% wanted them because they produce less pollution. Lack of need for oil changes and tune-ups was the top reason for 60% of those wanting to purchase an electric car.
“For a new product category, interest in electric vehicles is strong and likely to grow as more vehicles enter the market and consumers become more aware of them,” said Chris Ely, CEA’s manager of industry analysis. “Manufacturers, dealers and other sellers will need to emphasize mileage and battery-related specifications when promoting and selling electric vehicles.”
The study did reveal that people perceived significant disadvantages to owning an electric car. Chief among a them was fear of running out of electricity while driving, cited by 71% of respondents. About two thirds (66%) were concerned about lack of charging stations and/or not being able to recharge, and limited range was a concern for 59%.
Half the respondents (51%) said they would be less likely to purchase an electric car if specialized home charging equipment had to be installed.
“Environmental benefits, coupled with potential cost savings in fuel and tune-ups, will lead to increased interest for electric vehicles and potential floor traffic at dealerships,” said Ely. “But concerns regarding battery life, charging stations and limited mileage may keep some consumers away until a comprehensive infrastructure is in place.”
The study surveyed 950 people from the US between May 27th ad June 3rd 2010. Familiarity with the term plugin in hybrid was not specifically asked, nor was the preference of a 40 mile EREV versus a 100 mile EV determined.
Source (CEA)
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:23 am)From posting:
Forty-two percent said they are likely to follow news reports about electric cars.
I can’t imagine Volt not getting some very interesting reports from that source.
+8
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:26 am)wait…”The study revealed a full 40% of US adults planned to test drive an electric vehicle and are open to the idea of purchasing one.” Shouldn’t that be 40% of a particular demography of people (e.g. internet users who wanted to take part in a survey). Whilst I welcome the data, the sample appears to be only 950. “40% of US adults” is a big call from a single internet based survey.
+4
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:31 am)I had a “Range anxiety” moment yesterday and I don’t even drive an electric car yet. I went to the Portsmouth Boston Air Show yesterday, about 40 miles away. At the end of the day, I sat in a traffic jam for over two hours and was thinking that, if I were in an EV with a 100 mile range, I would probably have been stranded on my way home.
Now this wasn’t a long trip, just a local outing, but a pure EV would have been challenged. Not a problem with the Volt!
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:35 am)This American Adult was never asked the question by The Consumer Electronics Association (CEA).
I would have voted Yes for plan to test drive an electric car. I hate when research companies make it sound like their poll reached an entire group.
“in which American adults were surveyed online about their opinion of pure electric car”
should read:
“in which (X number of) American adults were surveyed online about their opinion of pure electric car”
surveyed online???? How can they be sure the respondents were adults?
NPNS!
+5
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:36 am)EPA testing
As of September 2008, General Motors was reportedly in disagreement with the United States Environmental Protection Agency regarding how the Volt should be tested to determine its official fuel economy rating. The controversy centers around whether, by including an internal combustion gasoline engine, the Volt should be classified as a hybrid rather than an electric vehicle (and tested accordingly). If tested with the same EPA tests used by other hybrids, the Volt’s EPA fuel economy rating would be around 48 mpg due to the current EPA test for hybrids disallowing vehicles from boosting their mpg rating using stored battery power. On the other hand, since the Volt was designed to run primarily off of electricity (with the ICE only used for recharging batteries), GM feels that the current test puts the Volt at a severe disadvantage. GM believes that the Volt is an entirely new type of vehicle which the EPA’s current fuel economy tests are not suited to rate and that a new test should be devised for this emerging class of hybrid-electrics.[103]
i found this on wiki , found it interesting (48 mpg under current epa testing)
go volt – p.s lyle keep on keeping on!
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:39 am)As always, you need to know a lot about how the survey was done and questions asked to understand the results. Was it a voluntary web survey? If so what group of people visit that web site? More info at:
http://www.ce.org/Research/Consumer_Research/276.asp
However, although only 25% said they were familiar with electric cars, clearly most, or all knew what an electric car was, and 40% were sufficiently motivated to want more info and first-hand evaluation.
The education on EVs and EREVs is well under way. When prices come down to be competitive with ICEs the ICE market will die. People want electric. Movies set in the future often show electric cars as the norm.
Join htE REVolution
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:44 am)just a question, anyone eles here drive a forklift for a living? i only mention this because i have followed gm-volt.com for years now and would almost trade my first born for a volt right now but, that being said, when i arive at work each day i am presented with a choice, gas powered (propane to you yankees) fork or electric, i have to say i grab the gas one every time as im used to the feel of it, it also has the left hand third pedal (clutch brake) which the elec version doesnt have! i so hope that the difference between a electric forklift and a gas / propane powered forklift doesnt carry over with next gen auto`s
anyone eles know where im comming from, i hope i dont come across as negative towards electric proplusion, i cant wait to purchase my holden volt down under in 2012!
stuey
+21
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:47 am)You might think that, but you would be wrong. This spring, we had an incredible amount of rain in a short time in NJ. Many on the local rivers flooded the local towns. On one particular day, it took me 4 1/2 hours to go 35 miles to work, instead of the usual 40 minutes. I was driving my MINI-E. When I arrived at work I had about 5% MORE charge than I usually do.(76% compared to 71%) This was after more than 4 hours of stop and go traffic.(and watching a guy walk past me with a gas can because his car ran out of gas in the traffic)
Unless you turn on every electrical draw that the car has, traffic jams will increase your range, not hurt it. The slower you go in an EV the further you can go.
Of course the Volt can handle any circumstance which makes it extraordinarily versatile. Also, it’s not surprising that such a high % of people site range anxiety, it’s because they have never owner or driven an EV. If the people polled were actual EV owners that number would be extremely low.
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:48 am)The percent of drivers saying they will demo drive an EV isn’t important. How many hear of their experience is. Needless to say the number of drivers taking EV demo drives will multiply over time. Probably 5% per year until at least 50% of active drivers have experience in them. Some drivers will not demo an EV under any condition. Of my friends and coworkers. I expect 50% will demo an EV within a few years. With 10% rejecting them outright before demo driving.
=D-Volt
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:57 am)Spent some time on the CEA web site trying to find out how the surveys are conducted and found this:
“Beginning in January 2007, CEA and CNET began fielding a similar series of questions on a monthly basis through a random-digit-dial phone survey. These questions gauge consumer sentiment on the broader economy in general and technology specifically and have since collectively become the CEA-CNET Consumer Sentiment Indexes.”
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:03 am)Woops! Sorry, my bad. This survey was online, not their usual phone survey.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:13 am)Please explain why you choose the propane version. More power? Smoother operation? Does the electric one degrade in power as you use it? Surely it can’t be because you like the smell!
Join thE REVolution!
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:16 am)Perhaps I missed something’s, but the post pretty much starts with “The Future of Driving in which American adults were surveyed online about their opinion of pure electric cars.” The link also mentions an online survey at the top. I admit to not digging any further around for the actual survey, so the openings for the post and article in the link may be misleading.
+8
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:17 am)This survey used the commonly applied statistical technique of random sampling. From a relatively small random sampling of 950 adults, the survey can accurately predict the properties of the entire US population within +/- 3.2%
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:18 am)No problems
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:20 am)My bad, didn’t pick up on that when I first read it.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:21 am)Assuming the survey was done in a non-biased way as possible….
I fit the results.
I plan to test drive EVs and I am in the 71% that have range anxiety.
Looks like the VOLT fits my profile interests quite well ;+}
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:30 am)What if you wanted 4.5 hours of AC on a hot August day or 4.5 hours of heat on a cold January night?
+6
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:37 am)For comparison, let’s consider a “roller coaster” anxiety survey. Having taken one of those (informally, I confess), the degree of roller-coaster anxiety expressed pre-ride is high, and the degree of roller-coaster anxiety post-ride is vanishingly low, though it is hard to conduct that part of the survey as many of the riders are rushing around to get in line again.
We could work it out with a formal Bayesian analysis, but just guessing I’m thinking that once people take a ride in a Volt, they’ll just buy a Volt, and the whole topic will no longer be of interest. The issue is not range anxiety, it is availability. Please move on, GM, and make some.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:43 am)The large number of drivers who fear being stranded doesn’t surprise me. In my 72-year driving career, I have gotten stranded maybe three times on a cold night in a deserted scary neighborhood and I have never forgotten these incidents–nor do I want any more of them. Another thing–this experience in an EV will be different from the AAA coming and starting you up in seconds. The AAA will have to pay–and charge for–an expensive tow to the nearest recharge station–which may not be so near–and then you’ll have to cool your heels for at least a couple of hours.
Other than this, there is the flexibility of the automobile. It is the closest thing to a flying carpet there is in real life. You can use it for a 30-second errand to pick up a quart of milk. Or get from your driveway to your work parking lot in less than an hour every day of the work year–and back too. Or, as I now do, hardly use it except for a regular 250-mile trip once a week–stopping only for one five-minute refill. Finally, have the exquisite peace of mind that comes from knowing that if there is an emergency of any sort, even in the middle of the night, you have access to all the facilities of a modern society without trying to hunt down a taxi or an ambulance. You can even use it as a sort of mobile home for a thousand-mile vacation; if desired to the other side of the continent. The pure-battery-electric will require giving up much of this. No, thanks.
Yet the electric car is an imperative for many reasons, not the least of which is that when China and India soon become fully motorized, there simply won’t be enough liquid fuel for everyone. GM’s solution: the range-extending Volt–is a stroke of genius that will, I believe, simply wipe out all pure-battery-electric competition.
+4
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:50 am)Then you better be in a Volt.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:54 am)I know the Volt and I *think* the LEAF just “turn off” if stopped too long in traffic. Does the Mini-E? I’d assume that it does too. If the traffic is literally *stopped*, I don’t think that it can generate more battery power, but I can easily see how “stop and go” could provide charge.
Thanks for the real life input!
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:09 am)Well actually, it can only accurately predict the properties of the entire US population who have telephones….. (lol) Tough room today, Lyle (g).
Be well and thanks,
Tagamet
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:22 am)The good news for Nissan is that 29% of the market does not have range anxiety. Between that and their price advantage, they should be able to sell their LEAF’s.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:22 am)Charging stations will start to appear as EREV/BEVs start to be sold in a given area. The issue won’t be range anxiety at all. An EV will tell you how many miles you have left and where the nearest charging station.
So it will be time anxiety, not fear of being stranded but fear of an unexpected delay if you have to go 5 minutes off your route, wait in line for a charger, wait another 20 minutes for an adequate charge to complete your trip, then get back on the road. It could cost you an hour instead of 5 minutes to stop off at gas stations which currently are everywhere.
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:24 am)Easily.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:30 am)You better not have been less than 1/2 tank of gas and your cooling system better be working properly as well. Lots of ICE cars run out of gas or overheat in those excessive traffic situations. The are some distinct advantages to having the range and refueling capabilty of a tradition ICE but I don’t traffic jams is one of them. The Volt, however, gives you the best of both worlds in this situation.
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:34 am)Another one of those +1 is inadequate moments. Thanks for the real world input.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:35 am)40% want to take a test drive and the features of the VOLT takes care of all their other fears or concerns….. It will be like ‘catching fish in a barrel’, or is it ‘shooting ducks in a pond’… I always get those two mixed up.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:41 am)This supports the argument that CS mileage is in the 50 mpg range. If not allowed to boost mileage rating with the battery, it implies it had to be tested after using up the battery range so it’s running in charge sustaining mode.
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:43 am)Here’s a solution automakers could use to help quell some of this range anxiety – lobby car rental centres to carry a few BEV’s or EREV’s. Offer them at a discount rate to get people really interested and curious. That way, motorists could give BEV’s a try and get a feel for the real-world range they can expect, should they buy one.
That anxiety stat would be lowered quite a bit this way, IMO.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:58 am)There’s really not much need for public or retail charging stations for EREV. It’s just the BEVs that stop when the battery charge is depleted.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:00 am)A lot can be learned from a sample of this size, but one can easily be misled if the sampling is not truly random (which is hard to achieve), if there are marked variances between different subgroups of the population in the frequency of the property, of if the presence of the property is changing with time. Sampling for flu prevalence in August doesn’t tell much about flue in January, for example. Range anxiety may go away once electric cars are in widespread use, or it may increase — we just don’t know.
That’s another way of saying that pollsters often are wrong, as we all know.
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:19 am)There was an electric forklift at my last company (the only forklift there). I was there for 10 years, and I never saw it move. Granted that most of the warehouse-intensive functions had been moved to another building before I got there, it still seemed odd to me to always find it sitting in it’s corner. I don’t know if it was broken, or what.
I had thought (before the Great Recession) that I might park back there and plug my Volt into it’s 220V wall socket; but the need for the “professionally installed 220V charger” made that notion impossible.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:24 am)George,
When stranded in a traffic jam, there would be times when you would be standing still. During those times, an EV would not be using any power from the battery. That is the great factor about EV technology, Fuel is not wasted while standing still.
I believe that range anxiety is a real factor but not because of getting stranded in a traffic jam. True, you may be running the air conditioner but my understanding is that does not use much current. Besides you can turn it off if your stranded and concerned about reserving what energy is left in the battery.
Even though what you thought would be a range anxiety problem when in fact it wouldn’t, you did get the feeling that someone would experience. I’m not disparaging your comment at all. I just wanted to dispel a common misunderstanding.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+4
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:26 am)To those who are in denial of range anxiety being a problematic issue, perhaps we can all agree that it can disappear and be replaced by the issue of range management.
Range management for an ICE car is simply finding a gas station when the fuel gauge needle nears the ‘empty’ mark. A task easily done with minimal thought and time invested.
Range management for a BEV is more complicated, far more involved, and is not without challenges – not only driving habits are important, but weather and terrain complicate the task. Like it or not, the majority of car buyers aren’t ready for taking on the extra burden of involvement.
This all illustrates why the Volt is such a brilliant idea. It bridges the chasm between ICE and BEV; the Volt offers the rewards of full electric power (for most of our driving needs) while at the same time offering the familiarity and peace of mind of a standard ICE car. That’s always been its raison d’etre, and that’s why it’s bound for success.
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:35 am)Could be that they asked them in the survey.
Statistical survey’s are based on probability mathematics which results in being able to say that 40% of (all) American adults plan on testing an electric vehicle car.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:36 am)I use forklifts in my work. I used to have an ICE powered forklift and now have an electric. The advantage in utility of the electric over the ICE especially shows up when one needs to jump on and use it for a minute, jump off, jump on to use it, jump off, etc. The ICE engine continues to run the whole time while the electric only runs when you jump on. It’s much less bothersome and wasteful.
I imagine this is how things would work in stop and go traffic.
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:45 am)In a couple months … we will have the answers to the Volt mpg issues.
My guess is we will be hearing the majority of Volt owners reporting well over 100mpg.
And the general public will get their education when they start to hear from owners. Right now knowlege of electric vehicles is very low.
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:48 am)Your idea that going slower is correct for one simple reason, the motor is using less energy form the battery but you won’t be able to go much further. When traveling at slower speeds wind resistance is not so much a factor requiring the motor to work harder and use more energy. As I stated to George in a previous post, the great factor about the EV is when it’s standing still, as one would be subjected to in a traffic jam, the EV uses no energy or fuel.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:59 am)Tag, The MINI-E like the LEAF won’t “turn off” because there is really nothing to turn off unless you are talking about the stuff like a/c, heat, etc in which case, no they don’t turn off. They simply don’t send any power to the motor if you aren’t moving. I assume the Volt will turn off like a Prius or Honda civic hybrid when you stop at a traffic light or such. In the MINI, the slow stop & go traffic like traffic jams uses such little energy to move the vehicle you can go much further per charge. I have driven my car up to 130 miles on a single charge by driving like this and I know others that have driven their MINI-E’s 145 & 148 miles just by driving slowly.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:07 am)I can go much, much further and I have on lots of occasions. Once a week I need to drive to a destination that is about 50 miles from my house, and then to my job which is 20 miles from there so the trip is 70 miles. Normally, I get to my job with about 20-25% SOC and I need to top off while I work to make it home at night. Then there are the days that the traffic is horrendous. It takes me twice as long to go the same 70 miles because of the bumper to bumper traffic on the Garden State Parkway. On these days, I get to my job with about 35% SOC and now I don’t need to plug in to get home at night. I can easily get 120 miles per charge on these days whereas under normal driving conditions (with greater wind resistance) I can only rely on about 100 miles.
By the way, there is going to be an article on me and the MINI-E with my solar PV system in tomorrow’s Star Ledger here in NJ if anyone is interested. I was told it will be on the front page unless a big news story bumps me off.
-1
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:09 am)That’s true with any powertrain, really. (as long as the ICE doesn’t stall!!)
It’s not so much the no energy when standing still part but the more energy is needed to move at 65 than at 35, wind resistance or not. It’s just basic physics, we don’t drive in a vacuum.
BEV’s aren’t for everyone, but for the people that buy an EV ASAP, good going, keep plugging in. I hope that every mile tests the limits of range anxiety and still make it to the next plug. I want to see gas stations on every corner turned into electricity storage stations (now, about that peak charging…).
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:14 am)Given the opportunity to stop and charge the battery of Volt while on a long trip, I would opt for the electric charge rather than just relying on filling up the gasoline tank.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:19 am)My, have Americans gotten lazy or brain dead!?! I, for one, will welcome this extra burden!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:21 am)Sorry dude, Paris Hilton got busted for weed possession. Consider yourself “bumped”
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:24 am)I was thinking more along the lines of another NJ politician corruption scandal, but unfortunately you’re right. “News” just ain’t what it used to be
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:29 am)Yes I remember one night of insomnia, when I watched a show about a study done to figure out why democratic pollsters got one of the congressional races so wrong. In that particular race, it was closely watched by various local TV news organizations, so there was lots of footage of the pollsters asking people questions. It turns out the pollsters were young college kids. While they there were trained in sample technique, in the end they mostly approached young people or people that “appeared” to look friendly to them. They avoided “conservative” looking people, and were even caught on camera making comments about not wanting to approach some people even though the random sample technique required they do just that. I did not detect malice in there efforts, they just didn’t understand the consequence.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:30 am)Thanks again and congrats on the celebrity status of your setup (g). If the article has a web presence, maybe you could post a link – or maybe Lyle would like a guest write-up?
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:37 am)For that reason every time I’m stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, I think of how much gasoline would be saved if we were all driving electric cars…..enough to get us off foreign oil.
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:43 am)Newspaper!?
Print!?
Hmmm. been a while, but this one should be worth the dime (or dollar is it now?)
Good going!
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:45 am)The way you worded your comment in Pst #8, led me to believe that you were saying that less energy would be used from the battery when caught in a traffic jam. Now I see what you were originally getting at.
You can’t get more energy from the pack than it has but you are right about the wind resistance making a big difference. Thanks for correcting me on that. I got stuck on the idea that when at rest the EV uses no energy whereas the ICE in most cases keeps burning gasoline; newer vehicles have engines that shut off when at a standstill.
Your comment about getting more millage when traveling slower should be a reminder to slow down rather than rush from point to point. Conservation is one of the least chosen options to the problem of fuel cost. By slowing down to 60 mph, we only add a small amount of time to get to our destination. Yes wind resistance can use up a lot of fuel; either gasoline or battery charge.
Thanks for waking me up! I was up to late last night and slept a little longer. Whenever I do that, my brain gets clogged with cobwebs.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:48 am)Almost forgot to ask; is there a link on the internet for the Star Ledger that we can visit to see the article? You should post it so that all of us here can save time looking for it.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Hope you do make the front page!
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:52 am)Well, my brain was driving in a vacuum this morning.
Have a nice day!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:55 am)Or who are on the internet and willing to participate in a survey. Online surveys are notoriously inaccurate. Actually, for telephone polling it’s not so much that people have telephones, it’s that they have landlines — mobile phones don’t count. So if you limit your calls to landlines you end up with an older demographic since many young people don’t have a landline phones any more. It’s a main reason why Rasmussen, the Fox News pollster, ends up with results that look more representative of Fox viewers than other legitimate pollsters (Rasmussen is legitimate).
This poll strikes me as meaningless. There is no way 40% of adult are planning to test drive an EV. More like 4%. Just think about the numbers — 40% of adult Americans is 92 million. Do you really think that 92 million people are planning on test driving a Volt or a Leaf? (If there were 2000 dealers that would be 125 test drives a day every day including holidays). In fact I doubt 40% of adult Americans even know about the Volt or the Leaf. As for range anxiety, that’s one of those “Duh” findings. Didn’t GM do polls and run focus groups to find out that people would rather not have range limits on EVs? This is like asking whether people would be more likely to buy an EV if it cost $20K or $45K. IOW sometimes you don’t need a poll to tell you the obvious.
My view is range anxiety will dissipate once people start using EVs. For some people a range limited EV won’t work, but that doesn’t mean those for whom it will work, and who own them, will have range anxiety. They will at first but then they’ll figure out how the car works and how far they can go and they’ll be more or less like people driving gassers with gas gauges. IMO Lyle is sort of at the edge of those able to use a BEV — 40 mile one way commute at high speed. It would be interesting to hear what he had to say about range anxiety after a year of driving the Mini-E.
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:56 am)Boy, we will all be happy if the CS mileage is around that 48 mpg mark. And it is really great that the Volt will keep track of our ongoing mpg as we use the car. How cool will it be when after driving for thousands of miles we are getting 100-200 mpg, maybe more. Talk about a transformation of transportation!
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:59 am)As I read the article about the survey, I was wondering…..
Has GM or anyone announced how many actual orders (deposits at the dealer) have been placed for the Volt?
Now that the price and ordering process have been announced, I’m sure GM has those numbers.
Any guesses?
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:09 pm)These results make me think a targeted marking approach might be useful.
For example, have several commercials featuring several different owners with different situations and reasons for buying the Volt.
1) Guy who just plugs into a standard plug on his house (car sits in the driveway). He likes that no specialized charger is required, but can add one if he wishes to later.
2) Guy who loves the Volt because he doesn’t have to worry about limited range or running out of juice.
3) Women who love the Volt for the reduced operation costs and that there are much fewer trips to get oil changes and maintenance work done because the generator is used so infrequently.
4) Tree hugger who loves how it helps clean up the environment and reduce our need for petroleum.
5) Rugged individual who want to reduce oil imports from far away (unfriendly) places and to increase our security.
6) Etc.
You can have several commercials each hitting on all the different advantages and reasons for wanting to go electric. This shotgun approach should make it possible for one of the commercials to hit a note with potential customers and their vastly different situations.
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:14 pm)Altairnano has a battery based on Lithium Titanate chemistry that can be charged in under 15 minutes!
http://cleantech.com/news/1242/aerovironment-shows-altairnano-10-minu
As for charging infrastructure, Aerovironment has been manufacturing battery chargers for airport and other facilities for a long time now.
http://www.altairnano.com/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView.asp?BzID=546&ResLibraryID=40008&Category=1951
“According to Terry Copeland, Altairnano President and CEO, the release of the Application Kit is a critical element of the company’s strategy to demonstrate the value of the technology for OEMs who are searching for a battery system with unequaled cycle life, safety and ability to perform in challenging operating conditions.”
Advancements in battery technology will enable rapid charging in the near future. Altairnano’s battery is one such example.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:21 pm)http://www.nj.com/starledger/
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-16
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:27 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:31 pm)Most people that have mobile phones also go on the internet. If this survey was done on “land lines”, I might agree with the rest of your post. But it was done on the internet, which is known for its younger population.
Since not all older adults use the internet, the survey may be inaccurate in not representing all older adults. As the EV market grows and new surveys are taking, we will see how accurate this poll was.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:31 pm)Football season is starting up and it’s time for GM to be thinking about the all important “Super Bowl” commercial for the VOLT..
The Perfect Volt Commercial
for Thanksgiving Week
Fade in-
A young man (or woman) in late 20′s to early 30′s gets in behind the wheel of the all-new Chevrolet Volt. We see a quick glimpse of the ‘Welcome Animation’ on the two 7″ display screens. He presses the ’Start’ button, then taps the XM satellite radio to life and then drives away.
On the stereo we hear ‘Dianna Ross and the Supremes’ – “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough”.
At the instrumental section, we hear the voice over by Morgan Freeman:
“This is the Chevrolet Volt. An Electric Car that’s fun-to-drive with plenty of performance”…
The driver, seeing that mountains are looming up ahead, switches the drive mode to ‘Mountain’, and we see a quick close up of the driver’s display when it changes.
“It’s the perfect car for your daily commute, and even for those longer, more important trips thanks to it’s on-board range extending generator”…
We see the Volt pass by tall pines of a mountain forest. The driver taps the centerstack screen that is showing the standard navigation system now.
“after 40 miles of gas and emissions-free driving, the generator seamlessly comes online to give you another 300 worry-free miles”…
The driver pulls up in front of parent’s mountain home.
Father steps outside to greet him:
“Any trouble getting here son?”
“No, dad. Not at all.”
“I thought you said that car was electric?”
“It is, dad. And then some.”
We see a nice 3/4 rear angle of the Volt.
Morgan Freeman VoiceOver: “Chevrolet Volt. See what an ‘Extended Range Electric Vehicle’ can do for you, at your Southern California Chevrolet Dealer.”
Fade to Black BG with Volt logo.
-6
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:36 pm)That’s pretty specific for a super bowl commercial.. How bout you just put your name in there too. Maybe you’re phone number as well.
-4
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:38 pm)Eventually all the old people will die before the youngin’s. So this poll should become more accurate with age, maybe they just didn’t wanna do it again in 20 years.
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:52 pm)I like your commercial suggestion Corvette Man, but I suggest deleting all technical references and explanations – the whys and hows – and instead just focus on telling the whats – what it does for you, the viewer and potential buyer:
Fade in-A young man (or woman) in late 20’s to early 30’s gets in behind the wheel of the all-new Chevrolet Volt. We see a quick glimpse of the ‘Welcome Animation’ on the two 7″ display screens. He presses the ’Start’ button, then taps the XM satellite radio to life and then drives away.
On the stereo we hear ‘Diana Ross and the Supremes’ – “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough”.
At the instrumental section, we hear the voice over by Morgan Freeman:“This is the Chevrolet Volt. An Electric Car that’s fun-to-drive with plenty of performance…an electric car without limits.”
The driver, seeing that mountains are looming up ahead, switches the drive mode to ‘Mountain’, and we see a quick close up of the driver’s display when it changes.
“It’s the perfect car for all your driving needs…your daily commute, and those longer, very important weekend excursions”…
We see the Volt pass by tall pines of a mountain forest. The driver taps the centerstack screen that is showing the standard navigation system now.
“40 miles of using no gas….and another 300 worry-free miles to follow”…
The driver pulls up in front of parent’s mountain home, father steps outside to greet him.
We see a nice 3/4 rear angle of the Volt with a Morgan Freeman VoiceOver: “Chevrolet Volt. See what an ‘Extended Range Electric Vehicle’ can do for you, at your Chevrolet Dealer soon.
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:11 pm)Well….. Maybe for the 50+ crowd, Dianna Ross & Morgan Freeman (GOD) will work…. But for 38-49, you may want to go a little louder with some Alice Cooper (Go to Hell), AC/DC (Hell’s Bell’s or Thunderstruck) or Kiss (Detroit Rock City), but could tie in Morgan Freeman and the GOD theme somehow…. But for the 37 and under crowd your gonna have to go with Black Eyed Peas, Eminem, Green Day and somehow tie it in with John Stewart or Steven Colbert….
LOLOL…. Just saying that maybe marketing should bring in the customers, and you can take it from there!
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:18 pm)CorvetterGuy, I’m thinking you could modify it for the upcoming Dallas Cowboys Houston Texans game and put your dealerships name and telephone number in it. You definitely have a future in advertising. I like it!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:28 pm)Well, the BG music is the flexible part. I should point out that 75% of the orders we have taken so far, the buyers are over 40. I’m sure half are over 50. I was a local disc jockey (back when we actually spun discs) from 1979 to 1984, so Dianna Ross and the Supremes weren’t all that old at the time.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:31 pm)My sister was offered two jobs , one each by major broadcasting corporations just after she graduated. The job entailed producing one minute advertisements. She turned the job down and ofter wondered what life would have been like had she taken it. Anyway (back on topic). Your proposed ad would meet that requirement. The imagery would catch the viewers attention and get the message across. It is suggested, in communication, in order to get the listener’s/reader’s attention, that you should start with a question. With such an approach, you can get your message across in thirty seconds. Although not at the beginning, I like where the sons answers his dad’s question about his trip to his parent’s mountain home.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. thanks for bringing the memory of my sisters experience back.
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:34 pm)Put me in the no range anxiety group. I simply never drive more than 15-20 miles on a given workday. A 100 mile range in a pure BEV will be fine. We have another car in the house for longer trips/weekends etc. I can’t see spending the extra money to buy a range extended vehicle.
That’s why its great there are so many options. Some will need a EV with “training wheels” until infrastructure builds out, some are ready to go full EV.
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:35 pm)It’s really nice out and I hate being on the PC but I had to check out Altairnano.
The key phrase here, as is with a lot of new tech out there, is “…in the near future”. This is a nice working battery today with a great potential. But it is one of many, I would love to see the current development of battery technology that has significant field testing and published results.
Nothing I have seen is ready for a mass produced vehicle that will hold up the way the Volt battery will.
The point of my post was to create electricity storage facilities that do not draw from a power company during peak demand times. The advancement in battery technology to allow rapid charging comes with a caveat. We will have to pay for peak charging and it won’t be cheap.
This will also contribute to range anxiety since rapid charging will cost more than gasoline. Isn’t there a program out there that is offering an all you can draw plan for EV’s? If I remember right, one of these plans was conceived to keep recharge facility prices cheaper than gas as a goal.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/industries/energy/stories/DN-elecvehicle_23bus.ART.State.Edition1.1aaad47.html
Civil funding will provide artificially low recharge stations. In that scenario, sooner or later the cost will catch up to the demand and prove the value of off peak charging and battery size to be more important than rapid charging.
Enjoy the day!!
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:35 pm)Tag,
I already did a submission for Lyle’s other site, AllCarsElectric: http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1047736_are-public-charging-stations-really-needed-for-ev-deployment
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:41 pm)I get emails for automotive opinion survey fairly often. One thing I’ve noticed is that often the answer choices don’t allow for an accurate answer. Often my true answer would be none of the above or that really depends on….
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:43 pm)No child should die before their parents. Unfortunately, as life goes, it does happen. In 20 years, a poll on this subject won’t be needed. JMO.
CorvetteGuy, in previous post, gave details on the age of those who ordered the Volt at his dealership; most are older adults over 40. Leave it to us older people to set the example. That indicates this survey may be right on.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:46 pm)I agree. As I travel between NY and FL homes, I have ended up in traffic jams in Atlanta, Richmond, DC and Baltimore. Each time, my Highlander Hybrid gets its BEST mileage of the trip. I want to roll down the window (while stopped) and yell to other drivers that they are driving the wrong car. Real EVs will do even better. For those who regularly find themselves in traffic jams, the turned off engine of an electric car makes a HUGE difference.
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:52 pm)I understand it was an internet poll. Those are the worst. Tag just mentioned phone polling so I was just using the issue of phones as an example of how even small differences — such as not using mobile phones — can make a difference.
But stuff like sample size and phone bias might account for ten percentage points. The idea that 92 million people are planning to test drive an EV is so crazy that you can dismiss the whole poll out of hand. Where did they poll from: Autobloggreen?
Again, just think of the numbers. 40% is 92 million people. Let’s say the poll is off by 90% and only 10% of adult Americans are planning to test drive an EV. That would still be 9.2 million test drives. What percentage of these test drives would convert? Ten percent? That would give you 920,000 EV buyers — just about the total number of Prius buyers worldwide since the Prius started being sold a decade ago.
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:08 pm)Tom, you may not know this but there is an official study of Mini-E drivers done at UC Davis. It was limited to Western drivers but found more or less exactly what you’re saying — that public charging isn’t necessary and in fact is probably just a waste of money. The study’s author estimates that of the 1200 charging stations being constructed in San Diego, 750 of them will never be used. He also says the chargers being put in places like malls will be more valued for the parking spaces that comes with them than for the chargers.
But I don’t think anyone in his study managed to put 36K miles on the car over slightly more than a year. That’s a lot of miles!
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:15 pm)I think the A123 batteries are better than the LG Chem batteries from a technical standpoint — they’ll handle more cycles and a higher discharge rate. So they’d provide more power and GM might have been able to 12 kWh rather than 16 kWh. My guess is the issue was cost.
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:29 pm)I was spinning records at WVSS Menomonie, WI in college (1980-85!). I will agree with you. In 1980, DR & Supremes weren’t that old at the time…. But that was 30 years ago!
In 1983 the station got to test the Sony CD format for broadcasting. “That will never work!!! How do you cue up music and mix songs together seamlessly on the board? They can never replace vinyl!” Now where did I put my 3rd class radio/telephone operators licence?
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:34 pm)What you say may end being true. I hope not!
Thanks for the link. All the retail suppliers of electricity are jumping on the band wagon early in hopes that they will secure part of the pending action in transitioning over to an electric automotive industry. Home construction companies are now building or considering building homes with solar power, the Solar industry is positioning for the pending surge in demand for commercial and residential home installation of solar panels. IMHO, the smart people who can afford it will install solar panels on their home’s roof. There will always be a need for power companies distributing electricity but there will be new sources of that energy which will include those home owners that don’t consume all of the energy they generate.
In order for former gasoline stations to become electric charging stations they will need access to high voltage transmission lines, a function that power companies have now. Along Interstate Highways, access to high tension lines will permit those charging stations to be built. The need for these stations within the cities is not so great because many owners will opt for home charging. In the near future, watching cities like Phoenix, Tucson, Seattle, and others where DOE has issued grants to build charging infrastructure will show those areas within the city are ideal.
There is without doubt, the growing understanding of how antiquated our power distribution system has become. The government will need to address this inadequacy that existed even before the idea of EV’s charging off of the grid. This is a must get accomplished ASAP project. It is the ideal time to renew the grid; with Wind Turbans being installed in more and more location across the country, these renewable sources will be given proper consideration in the new grid’s design.
The re-entry of the Electric Vehicle has necessitated the need for a National Grid Project, similar to the TVA Project and the National Highway Project. Such a project will carry a huge cost. The cost of electricity may increase as you suggest . But may not because a new grid will be more efficient as is the case with Bolder Colorado’s SmartGridCity project.
http://smartgridcity.xcelenergy.com/
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:39 pm)Are you sure that Lyle is still associated with that site?
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:41 pm)Could there be a ‘flower power’ factor that no one has talked about yet? Is it possible all of the ‘flower children’ of the 60′s and 70′s who wanted to change the world, but didn’t know how, now have a chance to buy a car that does ‘a little something’ for the betterment of the world? THAT would be an interesting survey. And aren’t they the ones who are buying hybrids already, but are now looking forward to something even better! How say you?
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:46 pm)Don,
It wasn’t limited to the West Coast drivers. We were all asked if we wanted to participate. I got the email but never responded and then forgot about it. Lyle didn’t participate either.
Believe me, the most important place for public charging is at your place of work. After that shopping points of interest. I know many people here don’t want to believe me and others simple refuse to, but public charging isn’t that paramount. There is a segment of the population that couldn’t live with an EV unless there were public charge points everywhere, but the one consistent thing that has been learned from study after study is that the people that actually live with an EV don’t think RA is anything difficult to overcome and that they mostly say they don’t need public charging all over the place. I few strategically placed chargers in every community and the ability to charge while you work will do just fine for the foreseeable future.
I finished the first year with 33,001 miles and had the highest mileage of all the MINI-E participants. With the ability to charge at work I frequently drive it 150-180 miles a day. Closing in on 40K now ; )
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:46 pm)I believe that GM selected LG for GEN1 because of cost; GM originally was looking at both companies. But there may have been other problems. Not sure of this, but didn’t A123 have problems with a challenge of their patient?
In the past GM secured more than one supplier of components in case one supply was shut down by strikes or other reason. If GM decides to increase production to 100′s of thousands of volts you will likely see more than one company supply battery cells to them.
Happy trails to yo ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:47 pm)Wasn’t LG also chosen as a provider by Ford recently? I know I read that they got another company’s business. I think it was Ford.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:48 pm)Life before MTV. When songs crated their own visuals in your mind. You didn’t need a video to show you what to think about!
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:50 pm)It says “Lyle Dennis, Editor in Chief” on the site. I assumed it was correct and when I submitted the story the immediately posted it and put a picture of Lyle in front of his MINI-E. My friends that read it asked me why the picture wasn’t of me and a MINI-E. I figured Lyle saw it and said to himself “I know that guy from GM-Volt” and put it up. I could be wrong.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (2:59 pm)Gee, I thought that that was already assumed. (lol). Maybe Lyle has some idea, but I don’t have any data on the average age of the members here. Not to be *too* egocentric, but I kinda thought that we skewed toward the seasoned end. I know that Laura M is a relative youngster, but I see her as an exception rather than the rule. JMO. I’d suggest that Lyle do a demographic poll, but people might be a bit squeamish about that.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (3:04 pm)I’m probably just a half-bubble off (par for me).
Be well,
Tagamet
+9
Aug 29th, 2010 (3:22 pm)I founded the All Cars Electric site, but Im no longer affiliated. I left it in the hands of High Gear Media so I could focus solely on GM-Volt…Editing that site was a bit too much time for me.
A comment on range anxiety and the MINI E:
Tom M and I may differ a bit personality-wise. I drove the MINI-E for a year but still had some apprehension when I had to drive towards the limits of the car’s range. Also I dont want to have to think about and be bothered about how far I have to drive that day and whether my car will make it. The Volt is for me.
Im not sure whether more of the population will be like Tom or more like me, but since we’re both early adopters we are going to me more forgiving either way and probably dont reflect the greater population.
I do agree that stop start traffic has no effect on EV range, which is a thing of beauty. Its really a shame to waste energy burning gas when a car is idling in traffic.
Aug 29th, 2010 (3:39 pm)Typical range anxiety is going to be proportional to how many miles you drive in a typical day . The average american drives 16 miles (32 miles round trip) to work.
Lyle, I think you’ve mentioned before that your commute is significantly greater than 32 miles round trip?
-10
Aug 29th, 2010 (3:52 pm)(click to show comment)
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (4:22 pm)You are really showing your age now. MTV hasn’t shown videos in a decade. They are now strictly a crappy reality show network.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (4:24 pm)That’s why I said, it was probably the cost factor. GM is forward looking as far as the Volt is concerned. I do expect that they will move to better battery technology as available batteries become more powerful and longer lasting. The only question involved is how expensive the new batteries will be.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (4:39 pm)I would think probably more are like you Lyle, I admit that. I know a 100 mile BEV isn’t for everybody. It happens to work very well for me. Also, unlike you I suspect, I really pushed the limits of the car early on so I learned just how far it really could go. I have driven it more than 120 miles many times and I would venture to guess you never pushed it that far. Also, if you had a 220V EVSE at your place of employment you would have appreciated it a lot. I keep in touch with many of the MINI-E participants and you are not the only one that felt apprehensive about pushing the range. I know two or three others that actually hated the car and wouldn’t drive it more than 60 or 70 miles for fear of being stranded (they were never stranded). Of all the 612 cars made I believe only one person actually ran out of charge once and had to be towed and he was a couple blocks from his house and ran out after driving 90 miles in the winter.
The car you drive, whatever it is need to match your needs, your wants and your personality. The Volt will be more appealing because it is much more versatile than a pure BEV, not doubt about it. However there is a market for both types of vehicles and I think it’s a big market for both. I hope to one day have both a pure BEV and an EREV parked in my garage and I know I’m not the only one that wants that combination.
PS: Make sure you get your Star Ledger tomorrow Lyle
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (5:09 pm)That is unless the car also came with the ability to drive 40 miles with full power using no gas each day. Now that would be cool.
Too bad Toyo cannot do it.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (5:37 pm)Thats about right, around 60 miles per day round trip, but sometimes I have to run back and forth to the hospital some extra times and several times a month go further into Manhattan topping 100 miles.
I had the experience of taking the MINI -E about 60 miles total and have the remaining range go to ZERO where I cautious slid the 3 or 4 additional miles back to my house a few times. I drive high -speed all highway miles. Never saw 100 miles range, never-mind 120
If the Star Ledger is a Jersey paper, I dont get..why would I want to tomorrow?
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (5:40 pm)I believe there’s no way GM would advertise the mountain mode, because to do so is fundamentally drawing attention to a weakness. Here, all of US are obsessed with mountain mode and CS MPG because that’s the most critical engineering challenge right now, but it’s far from the feature we should be trumpeting. Instead, you’ll see things like “100 MPG lifetime” and “think gallons per year” and “no range worries” and so forth.
This already happened with the Prius. I live in a neighborhood full of aging hippies, and trust me, they all drive Priuses. Look in any Prius on the road and I give it 50/50 odds that you’ll see an earnest older woman, and progressive bumper stickers on the back. Now, perhaps we are about to see them upgrade en masse from their Priuses to Volts!
I do agree that the demographic of Volt buyers will tilt towards the older folks, because they (coughWEcough) have more disposable income and are able to make a purchasing decision based more on emotional and political issues. Based purely on economics the Volt is not a win right now, for the reasons hashed out ad nauseum on this site, but we know that it’s still the wave of the future. (Note: I say this as a Volt buyer)
+4
Aug 29th, 2010 (5:42 pm)So the Volt looks like the perfect solution for the average American. Drive to work and back on electric power only during the week. Drive an hour to visit the beach on Saturday, stay over night and return Sunday night in extended range mode. Plug in, go to bed. Monday AM drive to work on electric power….etc. etc.
No worries, no having to plan around the car’s limitations.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (5:53 pm)No doubt a 100 mile BEV would be a bad match for your driving pattern.
I trust you’ll be be utilizing same high speed driving behavior when you get the Volt and report on AER and CS mpg?
-11
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:01 pm)(click to show comment)
-2
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:04 pm)I hope you are right, but I have my doubts as to this group embracing the Volt, because it comes from the Dark Side of Motordom, made by the one Who Killed the Electric Car – General Motors. The company whose shoddy cars chased many people away to Japanese, German and Swedish cars in the 70′s, 80′s and 90′s.
I think GM should not waste too much time trying to change the minds of anyone who continues to hold grudges against them. Instead, just look past them and appeal to those who are sitting on the fence, ready to listen and jump in.
As the Volt becomes successful, the haters will become less and less relevant.
-6
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:04 pm)The average American *already* has an ICE car.
In my case, when I buy an EV, I won’t transition from ICE + HV to EV, I’ll go to EV + HV.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:07 pm)Lyle, I posted the link to the Star Ledger earlier. If you get on the net some time you should be able to read the article about Tom and solar supplied Mini-E.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-7
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:12 pm)I agree.
The problem GM faces is that the group of people most open to EV and PHEV are disproportionately GM haters, at least in the US. GM has survived by appealing to motorheads, reactionary types, and those who buy on tenuous credit. In my neck of the woods people go the GM dealerships if they want a corvette, SUV, or a truck. These same buyers will not want a Volt in November. I think GM starts off with a (relatively) very small market. Certainly much smaller than the Toyota PHEV.
+6
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:15 pm)EricLG, you were doing fine until you used the Voltards word. That warranted a -1 from me. You would do fine and maybe get some support from the main fray here by just not calling us that name.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+5
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:18 pm)Sorry Lyle, I thought you read my previous post about the article. I know you work in North Jersey, I thought you lived there and would get the Ledger, perhaps you live over the NY boarder. I had written in a previous post that there is going to be an article on me and the MINI-E in tomorrows Star Ledger, supposedly on the front page.
As for the commute, my one way is 32 miles so my round trip is 64 miles. I can easily go to work, home and back to work without recharging. I did it today, 108 miles, ended with 8% SOC, and 50% was highway @65mph.
I have recorded every trip I have ever taken in the car, all 38,000 miles and have extensive graphs and charts that detail the range in relation to the temperature and the amount of heater & A/C use. I have averaged 106MPC in temperatures over 70 degrees, 90MPC in temps between 50 & 90 degrees. 83 MPC in temps between 30 & 50 and 76MPC in temps under 30 degrees with constant heater use. About 50% of my overall driving is highway. You know what they say, YMMV!
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:26 pm)The Volt goes one step further by providing you with an Energy Efficiency screen with a report of each days driving and an Efficiency Tips selection that will educate the Volt EV owner how to improve his AER. I wonder if the Nissan Leaf offers this feature!?! Can any Leaf Fan post here on this topic?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-11
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:27 pm)(click to show comment)
-6
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:34 pm)30% drop in EV range in cold winter.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:47 pm)1) Old Disc Jockeys never die. They just go deaf.
2) The bigger the headphones, the louder the music!
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:48 pm)You just don’t get it! There is no need to continually call any of us Voltards. Yes there will those who post here that will give misinformation about your beloved Prius. All you need to do is post a comment to their erroneous post correcting their comment.
But no, you would rather say to me, “if the shoe fits” (ware it). You come here regularly to denigrate Volt fans. Your inane comments don’t add to the dialog. At time you have posted your opinion without me piling on with a minus one. You are free to post here. I am free to give you a -1. I would rather not do that, and whenever your posts contribute rationally to the discussion, I won’t vote against you without even reading your post as suggested by others. In fact, I will make it a practice from now on to give you a plus one when you do not dis anyone and I generally agree with your post. Note: There have been those moments where I considered your comments reasonable.
So can we come to some agreement now on civil behavior when posting in this forum?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-11
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:52 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:58 pm)I gave you a plus one for this comment! The reason for doing so, even though someone could easily feel your being negative, I felt you didn’t deserve to be -1. What you posted was just an observation that the Mini-E has a “30% drop in EV range in cold winter.” It will be interesting to see what Toyota does to manage its battery pack in cold weather. If you know what the answer is to that question, I would be interested in your post.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-7
Aug 29th, 2010 (6:58 pm)I’ll be happy to, the moment Jackson and his pack of cronies admit that their “troll” list was inadvised trollism, and this forum stops giving -1 to posts based on user name rather than content. You are one person, and unless you have unusual influence I will continue to react in part based on how many in this forum conduct themselves.
In fact, if you go back a ways you will see that I did not write “Voltard” until my post were -1′d indiscriminately.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:02 pm)And 2 wrongs make a right? lol.
-5
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:04 pm)I can only offer wild speculation, although this question interests me too, and I have posted it elsewhere hoping that other people with EV experience will chime in.
The basic problem with winter is that cabin heating is coming straight out of battery range — there is not ICE waste heat to take advantage of. I *suspect* that EV performance also takes a hit, because of the SOC/voltage and discharge rate changes seen in cold(er) weather.
I expect cold weather to be a relative achilles’ heel of all battery cars. So far as I know, epa does not test in cold weather.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:12 pm)I have a feeling you won’t agree with me (although I hope you do) but Jackson’s retaliatory action was the result of the unacceptable posts by a number of Prius fans calling posters here names and generally taking over the blog and trashing the Volt. One can hardly say giving -1 to them is indiscriminate.
You have the option of changing your discourse. That is a freedom you have.But to continue this sort of behavior only re-enforces the image they have of you. If you truely want them to stop just giving you -1 without reading what you have to say, the easiest thing to do is just stop calling people names. This is the last comment by me to you about this issue. I’m sure that you can add constructive criticism to the forum. I for one won’t dis you if your posts are civil.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-7
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:15 pm)Did it matter, that it just happened to be *true* ?
-9
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:22 pm)Let me repeat: the indiscriminate trolling with -1 happened before I wrote ‘Voltard’ at all. I do not apologize for my criticism of the Volt, or the ‘energy independence’ dogma, to the extent that what I write is factual or reasonable. I do not apologize for mentioning the Prius if I think that car informs about the Volt, or is relevant to discussion.
Can *you* see the difference ?
-7
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:29 pm)“Survey: Forty Percent of US Drivers Plan to Test Drive an EV, Seventy One Percent Express Range Anxiety”
… and, when gas is $2.69, 99% think $41K for that EV is nuts.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:31 pm)+1 for this post!
I agree with you and no doubt Toyota will take advantage of on grid heating of the battery pack and passenger cabinet at the same time charging the battery as Nissan and GM do with their electric vehicles.
The ability of batteries to withstand cold weather without degradation of current output will be solved by new chemistry. Altairnano has their Lithium-Titanate technology that isn’t affected by low temperatures that degrade performance of many of the other batteries available today. Their technology may be end up being adopted. I believe that one problem they had was depth of charge. I wonder if that was really a problem or it has been solved. They now offer an Application Package to automotive OEM’s to demonstrate the viability of their technology:
http://www.altairnano.com/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView.asp?BzID=546&ResLibraryID=40008&Category=1951
Was it Panasonic that Toyota paired up with for its batteries; I wonder what the temperature ratings of their batteries are?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:36 pm)And that too! I thought you understood that from my comment why I gave you a +1.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-4
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:41 pm)Yes, Panasonic. One of the few areas of the Toyota PHV that is completely shrouded in mystery for the general public for the moment is the traction battery. We don’t even know what the chemistry is. Although the people given PHV to try out may obtain CAN data to their heart’s content and drive as they please , no disassembly is allowed.
+4
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:41 pm)+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:42 pm)Apparently, many don’t agree with you as GM from what is happening is receiving orders for the Volt that will easily pass the 10,000 they initially planned on selling.
Watch the price drop as years go by. I’ll even venture that the Volt will get better and better as battery technology currently available is already superior to what is being used in power density, depth of charge, longevity, and temperature sensitivity.
The topic for today shows many are ready for the Electric Vehicle: And the Volt gives the driver assistance in learning to drive more efficiently to improve AER.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-7
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:43 pm)99% of potential EV/HEV/XEV customers don’t know and don’t care that GM killed off the EV-1 prototype. It was not EV’s time.
What that 99% care about, however, is whether or not GM sold them a bad ICE car. And GM sold many, many bad ICE cars. They poisoned much of their customer base, falling from 50% market share down to about 19% as they alienated formerly loyal buyers.
-7
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:55 pm)I’m not sure so sure about that. All in all, the EV movement is tiny, and a large fraction of it were around for EV-1; heck, the really committed *owned* one, and they are the net roots driving force on the wider internet today. Head over and peek at plugincars.com for an example. Some of those people are not GM haters, but no GM fans remain.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:59 pm)The UC Davis study was more in-depth. That study had access to the questionnaires you’ve mentioned, which were sent to everyone, but, in addition, they did on site interviews. This is better because it allows direct observation of such things a family income and number of available vehicles. For example, if the Cayenne is in the garage and the Mini-E is in the driveway blocking it, then you have a confirmation point if the subjects say they prefer to drive the Mini.
I personally wouldn’t be comfortable going 60 miles at freeway speeds, which I’d assume are 75 MPH, in the Mini-E, especially in winter. Maybe on a different car that had better aero and heated seats. As you mention, the Mini-E was a prototype, not really a finished BEV, and this would have shown up big time when going faster and when needing heat.
My other guess is that your conservative when making investments. Different personalities wouldn’t be fazed at all by getting home with 3 miles of range left. I’d be a nervous wreck.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (7:59 pm)Its a slow news day!!! LOL…
I had a pair of BIG Koss headphones that I paid about $150 for in 1980. My kid just bought some earbuds the size of a thimball for $29 that sound even better… So much for bigger is louder (or better)! My JVC speakers make great end-tables now in the bed room, while my Bose wireless sit neatly hidden on a book shelf…
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:18 pm)Nothing will ever beat the Motorola Headphones with the built in boom-mike that are used by the NFL Football coaches. They started using those about 10 years ago… I think for the sole purpose as to be able to identify ‘who’ is the football coach just by looking at him from the cheap seats! They are the LARGEST headphones ever made. You can’t miss ‘em.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:21 pm)Your conclusion is right but your reasons are wrong. Cold weather kills efficiency for all cars. Cold air is denser so drag is greater. Cold roads means the tires stick more so rolling resistance goes up. And the drive train is less efficient because of increased friction. So it’s not primarily cabin heating or battery chemistry.
Heating requirements are a problem for EVs but the Volt deals with this acceptably by heating the seats rather than the cabin — much more efficient. Battery discharge will probably not be an issue. When the Volt is plugged in the battery is conditioned, and when they left it not plugged in at -30C or something, mass and insulation allowed the cells to stay at a reasonably high temperature. Assuming this wasn’t the case, the genset can condition the battery.
My guess would be that 80% of any range decrease you see in an advanced EV like the Volt you’d see in a conventional gasser, assuming you know what you’re doing and you don’t need it to be Miami when you’re driving in winter in North Dakota.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:30 pm)You’ve made the typical mistake of forgetting about the baseline. All those folks are primarily from demographic groups that don’t buy GM vehicles now. So yeah, you’re not going to find too many GM fanboys amongst them. This isn’t exactly a surprise.
One goal GM has for the Volt is to convince some of those in the demographic to become Volt fans. I think GM will succeed in that. FWIW most people I know who are getting a Leaf would prefer a Volt but (1) not so easy to get a Volt; and (2) cost.
Personally the big black mark against the Volt is the fact you can’t get an HOV sticker for it.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:36 pm)Don, I’m not talking about a questionnaire, I got an emeil from UC Davis asking me if I would participate in an in-depth study that would be conducted partly by frequent online Q & A’s and also in person interviews. The UC people came to the East coast to speak to the participating MINI-E drivers in person. I probably would have done it, but like I said I get the email and then forgot about it. We received the email’s asking if we would participate in the study a few weeks before we even got the cars so I really wasn’t too into it yet. In hindsight, I wish I agreed to participate.
-9
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:43 pm)Ten thousand Volts. It makes me laugh. GM, for decades styled itself, “the largest automaker in the world” and their allegedly ground-breaking car is going to be priced like a Corvette and sold in even smaller quantities.
See my earlier remarks on cost. Don’t expect miracles, that’s my advice. Continued high pricing is in the forecast.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:46 pm)I see that now. Congrats.
+7
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:47 pm)After reading this evenings posts, I certainly hope that EricLG doesn’t believe that he has gained any credibility for his opinions. It’s nice that he throws in a few tidbits of truth, but overall, I can’t be bothered.
Have fun guys, but for me he’s a waste of time.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (8:52 pm)I’ll add a #6 Etc. reason on the #58 Texas list on getting a Volt and cheering it on as I plan on doing. The thrill of watching (participating in) emerging super-technology!
Think of my dad’s generation. There was not one auto in the entire United States when he was born
(1890) but the vehicle he drove home to watch the astronauts on color television land on the moon was a Corvette. He remembers the first horseless carriage in town, and he hated animal borne transport. And I remember when there were no gadgets like the one I am now typing on.
To be historically correct, most of the Volt’s key components and characteristics were around a hundred years ago but the general public just didn’t recognize them. Well, better late than never.
BIG BTRY
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:04 pm)You know that a good part of the drop in market share was influenced by the recession. You’ll need to read this report on sales for July:
http://www.gm.com/corporate/investor_information/sales_prod/
GM is making a strong comeback, regaining market share. And the rating of their vehicles has increased. Look at Consumer Reports Top Ten Pick for 2010:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/top-picks/overview/top-picks-ov.htm
Prius made the top ten in the green category. The video is interesting to view.
2011 Top Ten by Consumer Reports will be quiet interesting: 2010 really didn’t offer much competition for the Green Category. Next year there will be the Nissan Leaf, the Chevy Volt and several other contenders besides the Toyota Prius.
Watch to see in Consumer Reports creates several new categories and where the existing PHEV and EV compete.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+5
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:12 pm)Although trying to reason with whats-iz-face, is admirable, I’m glad that you are tiring of it. You’re just inadvertently rewarding its behavior.
Watch the tirade/tantrum from the naysayer now (lol). Sometime it really *is* that black and white.
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:16 pm)Amen.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:18 pm)Exciting times! I was born a half century after your dad, and I’m still amazed at the ever increasing pace of technology. It’s breath-taking.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:18 pm)Tom, that would be exactly the study I’m talking about. Interesting because I’m pretty certain the lead investigator said that they only had access to the West Coast and didn’t have the budget to do interviews on the the East Coast, though they thought that didn’t matter. Maybe their plans changed or maybe I just misunderstood what he said or maybe he misspoke.
In any event, the other study participants more or less confirmed what you’re saying.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:28 pm)The truth does hurt for the lack of quality, not just from GM, but from the Koreans, Italians, English, other domestic manufacturers, and so forth.
Statistics can be used to support a lot of opinions, judging their merit is up to us. Since the 70′s and the first dramatic increase in oil prices, fuel economy has been an important factor in buying a new car. Honda made the first inroads for making Japanese cars legitimate choices for the average American. Honda increased demand for the cars by maintaining the fuel economy lead in cars that were fun to drive. What earned they’re place in our market was their gaining reputation for reliability.
It was hard to overcome the other reputation that Japanese cars were tinny death traps, but oil prices had a way of influencing our decisions to accept small frugal cars in our driveways that the worldwide manufacturers didn’t expect. Reliability sealed the deal.
GM built some very poor quality cars, no doubt, but so did quite a few other manufacturers. The market adjustment we have seen in the past year was a long time coming, whether or not some good cars other than the Volt will come of it will decide the future of the domestics. I’ll continue to buy the good ones and I hope there will be more of them for the rest of us.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:51 pm)That is not correct, DonC. The Volt does have A/C just like a normal car. Reference this link:
http://cleantechnica.com/2010/08/02/greener-gm-to-pioneer-ac-with-99-7-lower-greenhouse-gas/
“Now that the US is beginning to develop EU level clean vehicle standards, Honeywell’s HFO1234yf will have a new market in the US as well, and GM is the first on board to announce incorporating the environmentally friendlier refrigerant in its line-up here.” The vehicle pictured in the article is the Chevy Volt.
It will also have heated seats as you indicate. Thus, the Volt will have three ways to keep its passengers comfortable: 1) preheating the cabin during plug-in charging from the grid: 2) its on-board air-conditioning system; and 3) seat heaters. The seat heaters will probably be used when just entering your Volt when there is no chance to preheat with the car being plugged in. The onboard A/C will eventually acclimatise the cabin at which time the seat heaters will no longer be needed and turn off. They may even turn on automatically when you enter a cold cabin and turn off automatically when the air conditioning reaches a comfortable cabin temperature. I’m not sure if this feature is available. Would be a question for GM service reps to answer. At times, the seat heaters may be adequate, eliminating the need to turn on the A/C.
Happy trails to you ’til w meet again.
-6
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:59 pm)I should explain that I think of the entire market as potential EV/HEV/XEV purchasers and my comments are reasonable, I think, in that context. Since you refer to the immediate market, your comments are valid in that context.
+5
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:15 pm)And in fact I’ve decided to look past GM’s history and take a chance on them with the Volt. This isn’t just the first American car for me, this is the first American car for my entire extended family! We have driven nothing but German and Japanese cars for the last … 40 years! And I’m looking forward to it. GM, this is your window of opportunity.
Indeed. LRGVPV, please stop feeding the troll(s). I had to skip a gigantic section back there of just you and EricLG and the pointless back and forth. You’re not going to change his mind. Let it go and he’ll find another forum to crap in.
But, hey, it’s a free country / internet. Go nuts
Looking forward to one last week of slow news, and then once we get past Labor Day the real excitement should begin!
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:21 pm)Tag and crew (Jackson included) , he still has the chance to change. He has made several posts today that I found were worth discussion. Then again, there are those where he didn’t even try to be civil. He is right in that he has the right to express his feelings about why he feels the Volt doesn’t compare to the Prius. I wish that he would be willing to agree on some of our arguments that are on good ground. He holds to many of his opinions of his Prius based on his actual experiences.
One such opinion is , the Prius gets 50 MPG: however, the video of the 2010 Prius review by Consumer Reports 2010 Top Ten states that they got 44 MPG. This rating may be correct: we, here on this blog, have often faulted CR for its ratings. Therefore, many would fault EricLG, and disbelieve his actual experience. At present, I don’t.
What matters to me is, not whether he is wrong and maybe falsifying the official MPG rating of the Prius, but what the general public hears about its MPG from those institutions that do such ratings. I don’t think about doubting his rating experience. He may be one of the lucky Prius owners who gets excellent MPG. And it’s alright for him to state so.
Therefore, I will give him a chance to make positive contributions to this forum. As I told him, he has a right to speak out his opinions, and I have the right to dis him with a -1 or compliment him with a +1. . Other times, I may not vote at all. It depends on whether or not his comment is civil and worth reading. If it keeps the dialog moving smoothly, there is nothing wrong with his comments. JMO!
Great seeing you hear tonight, Tag.
Be Well!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet gain.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:25 pm)Don, I found the email I received last year (actually May 8th, 2009, a month before I got the car):
Hello Motoring Pioneer,
MINI is partnering with the University of California, Davis, on a study of electric drive vehicles. UC Davis is a world leader in the study of alternatively fueled vehicles and will conduct with MINI, a study with a select group of MINI E drivers. The goal of this study is to evaluate customer use of electric drive vehicles. This is an exciting opportunity for MINI, the University of California and MINI E drivers to explore the future of automobiles together.
Participation in this UC Davis study is voluntary and does not impact your lease or use of your MINI E. Participation will entail a closer look at your lifestyle, attitudes and use of electric drive vehicles. And, participation will involve face to face interviews with UC Davis researchers. Results from the study will be kept confidential, but will help MINI develop the next big thing! If you’re interested in volunteering, visit the UC Davis PHEV Research Center website. Simply copy and paste the URL address below into your internet browser and enter the username and password to begin.
Like I said, every MINI-E lessee got this email. Maybe they decided to only use California participants, but we were all asked to participate.
Good night all
-4
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:26 pm)Read GM’s July Sales report? I did. I usually do. Sometimes I listen to the S&P conference call. See if it’s still available; usually someone asks the key question, “How bad was the fleet dumping?” I see that in this report, they made quite a lot of noise about retail sales *for the year* but were silent on retail sales *for July*. The call is probably worth a listen.
The fact remains, GM has lost marketshare by the bucketsful. They’ll be a long time winning it back.
As for GM making the picks list… how nice for them. Wake me when CR says long term reliability is “just as good.” That’s not a picks criteria. A few posts back, EricLG said something less than complimentary about GM’s customers. He was right; GM targets the credit-challenged because that’s what they’re stuck with.
I have the luxury of a very good job, in an HQ with plenty of other people with good jobs. GM cars are almost non-existent. See my earlier remarks on the count of Camry hybrids (4) to Malibus of *any* kind (1).
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:30 pm)Thanks! You too.
Be well,
Tagamet
-7
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:34 pm)CR is entitled to its own test methods. Here’s a list of the top 15 cars for fuel economy, according to CR:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/buying-advice/most-fuelefficient-cars-206/
Have yourself a “Where the $%#@ is Waldo?” moment… try spotting a GM car on that list.
Ahhh… I remember well hearing El Lutzbo bragging about how fuel efficient GM cars are.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:34 pm)Sorry, you had to endure it. It was meant in earnest endeavor to get some civility out of him. I’m sure, he doesn’t enjoy being dumped all over. As I told him, I won’t be commenting to him about it any more. It is up to him to show everyone he can change. The only reason, I made my comment to Tag and crew, today, was to explain how I will be dealing with him. If his comment is civil, I will converse with him. If not, so be it. Fine! Be sure, after today, you won’t be pestered by all of this diatribe.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:00 pm)Chris, if you indeed buy a Volt, you are precisely the kind of consumer GM needs to bring into the fold. For that to happen, they need to ensure your satisfaction, and I sense they don’t need me to tell them that. The limited production level which they have been roundly criticized for in this forum is fine with me because I sense it is such because GM totally understands what the hell they need to do with the Volt – which is to absolutely satisfy people like you.
I want GM to succeed because, for its own good, this country needs a solid & domestically controlled consumer manufacturing base. It’s getting down to the point where the only manufacturing noise made here has military connections – and that scares me.
Go Volt. Go GM. Knock it out of the park.
+4
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:02 pm)And 84% think that when gas goes to $5.67 one summer soon, there will be no waiting list to buy an electric/plug-in hybrid, and they can sell their big SUVs with little or no markdown.
(Of those 84%, 98% think that their kids are above average in intelligence.)
Just goes to show ya, 90% of Americans have no clue about mathematics, and the other half are somewhat confused.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:02 pm)If you tell me the post #, I’ll be glad to go back and read your comments. What company would that be where you have a good job? Is that in any way inferring the GM employees are not so lucky as your companies employees?
Give me the links to your comments about Camry hybrids. It might be of interest to you that I am an owner of a 2003 Camry that has been through four accidents and is still holding up after being rebuilt after the first accident.
Only one problem! I was happy with the Camry until the last accident when the dealer did a lousy job repairing it. It may be fair to say that the dealer experienced extreme duress because of the recession: so bad that they downsized their collision shop to under ten or so employees. At the time, they repaired my car, there were only two vehicles in the shop; mine and one other. After they called me to pick up the Camry, I had to bring it back three times to have the driverside window fixed. It never has been right since. I feel it is time to give GM the chance to get my loyalty back. You can dis that all you like but so far I like what I see in the New GM.
Now that you have heard my gripe about Toyota, what’s your gripe about GM? What did they do to you to deserve all your negativism? Are you one of the many standard stock holders who ended up with pennies after the bankruptcy?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:13 pm)Not exactly sure how I could be wrong about AC when I’m only addressing heating in winter but if you say I’m wrong, no problemo. LOL FWIW AC is not nearly as much of an energy drain as heating potentially is. Not so say it’s unimportant, it is important, in fact it’s very important, but not as big an issue as heating.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:22 pm)My sentiments exactly, stuart! Also, GM is the only one who, IMHO opinion has addressed the problems with petroleum particularly this countries dependence on foreign oil. True all other Global manufactures are in the game designing or/and one foreign company, Nissan, ready to mass prtoduce their EV. But GM has lead the way necessitating the others to catch up. There is the Toyota hybrid Prius, considered to be the Green Car, put as originally designed it wan’t meant to get us off of petroleum as the fuel of choice for automobiles. GM gives us the opportunity to end our addiction to foreign petroleum. I believe we would all be wise to consider the Volt as our next car.
As the Volt goes, so goes America. Should Ford put an EV on the market, they should also share in the glory of the goal’s achievement. Credit also goers to any other foreign manufacture that gives us an EV that contributes to ending use of gasoline as a fuel.
$ Billions for America but NOT one dime for foreign petroleum.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:27 pm)/Night all. All-in-all a good day.
Exciting times!
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:30 pm)Do you know what it actually says on the window sticker?
EPA Fuel Economy Estimates
City MPG 51. Expected range for most drivers 43 to 59 MPG.
Highway MPG 48. Expected range for most drivers 44 to 56 MPG.
Your actual mileage will vary depending on how you drive and maintain your vehicle.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:32 pm)I was addressing the implication that the Volt only uses heating of the seats in the winter. Doesn’t A/C included both heating and cooling!?! There would be nearly the same energy needed to reduce the temperature the same number of degrees as cooling. You are right about seat heaters being more efficient. Thus, all three methods of heating is a plus for the Volt.
I may have misunderstood where you were going with your comment. Sorry if I did. At any rate, it brought out discussion of the various methods used to heat the Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:42 pm)John, what more do you want me to say. I said that I accept the 50 MPG that EricLG stated he experienced. And CR did say in its video, 44 MPG. The EPA sticker does reflect a range where those ratings are included.
As I found no problem with EricLG’s statement of MPG, I find no problem with your showing us what the EPA sticker says. Thanks for letting me know. It will of course be interesting the day EPA gives a range for the Volt’s MPG.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.>
P.s. I do agree with GM finding fault with EPA in putting the Volt in the same category as hybrids iff in the ned the testing cycle for EVs is significantly different from hybrids. The Volt is an EV, NOT a hybrid.
-3
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:48 pm)True, and close or exactly (I cannot remember) the same as the CR mpg for Prius Gen 2. CR is not lying anymore than I am, or the EPA — or AOL motors, for that matter. Simply different test conditions and drive cycles. I have not checked *every* EPA/CR pair, but for the cars I did look at EPA ends up with higher numbers.
If you drive like me in my town on a balmy day, expect 70+ mpg. My wife brags when she hits 50.
-3
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:51 pm)Just trying to prepare you for the inevitable vague & misleading reports.
With CR specifically, they are really hard on the vehicles during testing… which provides an excellent example of what happens when you aren’t an owner. For example, fleet & renters will tend to match their findings. Owners like me, who JUST DRIVE IT, will tend to be in the middle… darn close to the sticker averages. Owners who what to squeeze out the most efficiency (known as hypermilers for hybrids) will get the high numbers listed.
SAE testing criteria performed by the EPA will likely result in the same types of numbers. And Volt owners will face the situation.
-2
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:54 pm)LRGV, I didn’t say *I* experienced 50 mpg, I said it is a widely posted number is this forum, and I gather now accepted since raging roars of disapproval do not follow it. Fwiw, I think 50 mpg is 2-5% over the median, but that is small enough it does not seem worth fighting about.
+2
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:11 am)I am happy (well, maybe that’s not the right word) to hear about your Camry issue. I, too, discuss my complaints about dealings with Toyota via my Prius/Highlander Hybrid(s). And these Prius nuts on this website seem to gloss over the fact that we have RECENT experience with Toyota and still have complaints. It is my belief that these rabid fans have little RECENT experience with GM in similar fashion. They also seem to gloss over that we aren’t sitting here and loving up GM to death.
This website is a unique place to come and discuss a unique car. Most of us here, I believe, are very discriminating and objective in our feelings and writings. I think that is why we (myself included) end up letting these fanatics suck us in to these hopelessly unending rants about their beloved (out-of-forum) vehicle. When someone has a strong bias towards something and someone else points it out, so what? (think Steelers fan wearing Steelers t shirt) When someone spends a lot of time trying to be objective and unbiased and someone else accuses them of bias, THESE are the folks who get truly irritated (think about someone pointing out the refs blown calls who really didn’t care who was playing and offended fan starts up argument). This is what these Prius fans don’t get. We are not blinded fans of Volt, GM, etc. and the thing that irritates us the most is that our objectivity is being questioned by those who have no objectivity.
Once we see this, it is easier to ignore them. So the next time the ‘Voltards’ label is used, it is best just to -1 and move on. Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
-6
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:14 am)Your problem is I am not a Volt fanboy, and you find it hard to dismiss my criticism exactly because I often (obviously not always) have facts and reasoned analysis to back up what I say. You would find me much less offensive if I just posted “GM sucks!” repeatedly.
Here is the good news for you: I could not care less if you read my posts. I read yours occasionally, although I must admit I cannot remember one that I thought insightful or informative.
+2
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:15 am)It’s good to know that you are a hyper miler, Eric! As I goes with wives, when they talk about what your are keenly interested in, it can only be seen as good.
Good night. Time for me to go off to dream land.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
I accept what you say is your experienced MPG. All the more credit if you get 70 MPG.
P.S. I hope you realize that what I said should in no way be construed that I was saying or implying that you lied; or even as much as EPA.
-3
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:26 am)Since I don’t compare them per se, I find your comment odd. What I have said is that Prius leaves Volt in the dust as a public policy subsidy. If someone argued that the Corolla beats them both, I would be hard pressed to disagree. None of this is based on technical merit, but enviro and oil savings / subsidy dollar.
I’ll argue the same about any current EV or PHV.
+2
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:30 am)Are you thinking of HVAC, which is heating, ventilating, and air conditioning?
Heating and cooling aren’t symmetrical because the temperature differentials aren’t symmetrical. A heat pump won’t be as efficient trying to bring a cabin to 68F if the outside air temp is 10F as it would cooling the cabin to 72F if the outside temperature is 95F. In order to heat, a heat pump likes the air to be about 50F. At 40F or so there isn’t a lot of heat in the air and the cabin is losing heat rapidly which causes the pump to reach a balance point where it has to run continuously. Below this temperature the heat pump needs the help of a resistance heater which is very inefficient.
+1
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:38 am)well, I guess it wasn’t meant for me to sign off for the night just yet.
Happy is not the right word in respect to my Camry experience. The car has served me well. I just wish the other drivers who ran stop signs and hit me were elsewhere that day. Except for those accidents I might have been supporting them. We have all been critical of old GM; except for CorvetteGuy’s being solely critical in a positive way. What gives me hope is the signs I see in the turn-around since the bankruptcy. From everything we could see from the inception of the Volt, through its development by the various Volt engineering teams, all the way along its construction, even before the bankruptcy, GM has demonstrated excellence in the Volt in every way. If all the trolls can speak up against is the withholding of the CS mode MPG, or the seemingly low production estimates for 2011, and the high initial price of GEN1, they don’t have much to say against the Volt. From every appearance of the Volt, I get the feeling that it is a better vehicle; on the whole it looks nicer, GM has given more attention to details , even some suggestions by Volt fans. The driver and center consuls are neatly designed and packed full of features that very few other cars have. For a Chevy, this car is magnificent.
Good night and Be Well!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:42 am)The Volt is 5X better than the Prius at reducing pollution and at least 3X at reducing gasoline consumption. So the Volt would be the winner so long as its subsidy was say less than 4x the subsidy for the Prius. Let’s see, wasn’t the subsidy for the Prius $3500? Look like we have a winner! And it’s not the Prius.
The big screw up is that the plug-in Prius will be eligible for a tax credit far in excess of any possible contribution it can make.
The only car that would beat the Volt or the Leaf would be the Honda Civic GX.
-1
Aug 30th, 2010 (1:18 am)That is exactly opposite my experience – in the largest Leaf forum. Infact few think of Volt as an EV. But none are from NJ ….
-5
Aug 30th, 2010 (1:31 am)DonC,
Pollution: Prius uses oil, Volt uses more oil in CS, NG and coal in EV. Would you like to recalculate ?
Gasoline: 3x is a fair estimate.
Price: It doesn’t make sense to calculate from a price of zero, because people are not comparing Prius vs no car, they are saying Prius vs Corolla or perhaps Matrix. If the government wanted to subsidize the *extra* cost compared to say an $17k car, one would have to add $5k for the Prius and $24k for the Volt. So ~ 5 Prius could be put on the road for every Volt with equal subsidy outlay.
LRGV, you find ‘voltard’ offensive, but have no qualms about calling someone a troll because they point out price and CS mpg as negatives ? Pass that notion of civility by me again.
Aug 30th, 2010 (3:52 am)Another +1 is insufficient moment.
Aug 30th, 2010 (3:55 am)Kevin Kline played your character to a “T” in a A Fish Called Wanda.
/”Don’t call me stupid”
+1
Aug 30th, 2010 (6:24 am)Yes, I would love to see more of my friends killed in Iraq securing oil fields so that you can maintain a certain level of comfort while sitting in traffic. There is a greater purpose to EV’s than having nifty little conversations about how they operate compared to ICE or EREV cars… if you just don’t get it, then you just don’t get it.
http://www.citadel.edu/pao/newsreleases/war/therel_childers.html
Aug 30th, 2010 (6:28 am)Did anyone catch 60 Minutes last night? They had a segment on Bloom Energy.
They are further ahead than EESTOR as they actually have customers testing their product.
I didn’t see the whole thing, what I saw seems very interesting.
Aug 30th, 2010 (6:59 am)# 178
Tim in SC Said:
pdt: What if you wanted 4.5 hours of AC on a hot August day or 4.5 hours of heat on a cold January night? (Quote)
Yes, I would love to see more of my friends killed in Iraq securing oil fields so that you can maintain a certain level of comfort while sitting in traffic. There is a greater purpose to EV’s than having nifty little conversations about how they operate compared to ICE or EREV cars… if you just don’t get it, then you just don’t get it.
I wonder what people said back in the 1700s, when the US Marines were formed, to go fight the Muslims, who were attacking shipping on the high seas, and taking American’s as slaves? Do you think they asked people to stop using spices, so there wouldn’t be any ships to defend?
+1
Aug 30th, 2010 (7:23 am)Message understood. Part of the group effort here is to get the wheels of the Volt on the road. And many more EV wheels as well. It’s safe to say that most of us here have had friends and family injured or killed fighting in overseas war. We thank everyone who steps up to defend America. And thank all who support the troops in what ever way they are able.
=D-Volt
+3
Aug 30th, 2010 (7:35 am)They probably weren’t confused about their recent history, so would say that the Marine Corps’ “birthday” was 10 November 1775 when the Second Continental Congress passed a resolution to raise 2 battalions of Marines to fight the British.
http://www.marines.com/main/index/winning_battles/history/missions/founding_of_the_marine_co
You remember the Christian Brits, don’t you ? They were the guys who invaded Washington D.C. and set fire to and destroyed many public buildings, including the White House and U.S. Capitol. They were the only US Enemy to ever capture and occupy the United States capital.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Washington
The Marines delayed the British march to Washington, D.C. – this gave Dolly Madison enough time to save the famous portrait of George Washington and other priceless national artifacts, before the Christian Brits torched the White House.
http://www.whitehousehistory.org/whha_classroom/classroom_documents-1812.html
I think people asked other Americans to stop using British tea…
Aug 30th, 2010 (8:28 am)You’re absolutely right… a Marine’s life is worth losing in the name of spices (1700′s or today). Great argument.
-2
Aug 30th, 2010 (8:48 am)Why ? Not polite ?
What cars do you own today, Koz ?
-1
Aug 30th, 2010 (9:03 am)That doesn’t make much sense. Even if you assume all electricity comes from green sources, pollution reduction can’t be more than 3X if the gasoline consumption reduces by 3X.
If pollution reduction – assuming green EV power is the basis of subsidy, how much should Leaf get ?
Aug 30th, 2010 (9:30 am)It’s claims like that without any detail that causes the trouble. Where’s the data to support it? What about sales that don’t go to Volt? How come the emission-rating is disregarded?
Why must Volt be “better” rather than being a player on the team trying to advance the electrification of vehicles?
+1
Aug 30th, 2010 (9:44 am)Thank you for this very informative post. It’s refreshing to get some real information instead of unwarranted opinions that so many are so wont to post. I think you have opened a window to the future. For commuting, an economical EV is just the ticket – we just have a little learning curve to deal with.
+1
Aug 30th, 2010 (11:45 am)You may want to review this well-to-wheel detail technical report from Argonne National Laboratory. It contains emission, petroleum displacement, and real-world AER of plugin cars (both power-split and series hybrid).
http://www.ipd.anl.gov/anlpubs/2010/06/67242.pdf
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:07 pm)It’s #309 from August 26th. It was prompted in part by EricLG’s observation (one possibly repeated in this thread) about GM’s bottom feeding ways. Toyota and Honda are selling the car; GM is selling the deal. People with good jobs, and I’m lucky to have one, good credit and good savings don’t need the deal. They can buy any car they want with cash or qualify for a low interest rate. GM has a long history of pitching zero-down deals for people who need a car and don’t have resources.
GM has a long history of channel stuffing, too, and fleet sales (which kills resale values) and their energetic cultivation of buyers with mediocre to poor credit history put the whammy on GMAC and they had to spin it off to get it saved via TARP. Recently GM bought AmeriCredit. Gee… I wonder why? No, I don’t.
I had two GMs that did not satisfy. In addition, dealer service stank. Of course, I’m always encouraged by the GM Fanboys to look past the individual dealer issues but why bother if I can get a car that never visits the dealer for service, anyway? My relatives have had worse luck. Intake manifold and gasket issues and other problems. One in-law dumped an extremely troublesome relatively low mile GM and got into something else (Japanese, surprise, surprise) and the eventual purchaser of that GM tracked them down to find out what the h*ll was wrong with that car. In fact, one of my children, on a very tight budget, bought a Cavalier and it’s rapidly turning into a money pit. For $1K, we couldn’t find her a Corolla or Camry with less than 200K miles and less than 20 years. So, we took a chance on a 1998 Cavalier with 150K miles. Bad choice.
CR has continually rated GM as less reliable than other choices. Toyota and Honda are routinely rated as more reliable. Good processes beget good cars and there’s no evidence GM has good processes, yet. In spite of El Lutzbo’s proclamation in 2003 that GM was just as good as anyone, time has shown that GM’s 2003 and later efforts were not as good.
Toyota’s gotten a black eye, recently, over SUA issues but to the complete non-surprise of those of us who pay attention, NHTSA says it’s driver error (just like with Audis of yore).
I’m not going to “dis” your decision to give GM a chance. Somebody has to. However, buying a Volt is giving GM a chance with some of my money. That’s not right.
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:16 pm)You’re right. And, sadly, there’s no cure for stupidity.
But GM is trying to sell a $41K XEV into a $2.69/gallon market. Yes, they’ll sell 10K but they’re probably losing money on each one and they’re gaining no material advantage. Their market share (in terms of total auto market) with the Volt will be negligible and there will be a rush of competitors when battery costs come down.
In fact, the worst thing possible for GM would probably be a gas price spike in the near term. Toyota is poised to build a lot of Priuses (they have capacity to make about a half million). The PHEV Prius is an adaptation of the existing vehicle and it’s likely they could build quite a few if they want. A near-term spike in fuel prices would just push more people into Priuses, either the standard ones, if that’s all that’s available, or the PHEV Prius if the spike happens after its release.
One of Toyota’s strengths, and one of GM’s weaknesses, has been in flex manufacturing. GM has likely improved in the last couple of years but they’re probably not where TOyota or Honda are, yet.
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:19 pm)That about sums up my feelings on the topic too. $50 billion+ feelings.
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:23 pm)The recent SciAm article deserves mention too, as well as the UC Davis article I have linked to before. EV running from the grid is not clean.
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:25 pm)Don’t worry about PDT. PDT gets it, he just thinks that the Volt is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
A piddling 10K Volts per year, if they actually save any fuel, will save a negligible amount of gasoline. This “reduction” in fuel demand will just put slight downward pressure on the price of fuel and free up a few more gallons to be sucked into SUVs.
A more interesting question would be, do you get it? How much oil do you use today? Do you bike? Walk? Live within 3 miles of work? Ride the bus? Carpool? Look for locally grown food? Avoid use of disposable plastics?
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:38 pm)I keep thinking… maybe the pigs will figure it out. I am losing hope, though.
Agreed.
Better to buy a Leaf and with the $10K one saves, put a down payment on some rooftop SPV.
Aug 30th, 2010 (2:10 pm)The one-size-fits-all of Volt is what has always worried me. It’s not like Toyota who can just leverage from Prius by offering a plug-in model. There’s no concept of sub-packs either, allowing for EV capacity altering based on technology or demand changes.
The balance of business & engineering is something that should make gen-2 of Volt very interesting.
Aug 30th, 2010 (2:47 pm)Ah… the always refreshing, yet entirely unoriginal “what about you” argument. What about me? Well, as my name implies, I live in South Carolina, so I can’t exactly take the bus, subway, etc. to work due to the fact that we lack public transportation in its entirety. I currently own a Prius because that is the most fuel-efficient mass produced car on the market, and I plan on buying either a Volt or a Leaf as soon as one makes it to the market out here. I do not purchase local produce, so you got me there… I only eat the produce I grow. Being that I don’t really eat meat, that makes my diet pretty much oil free.
Your opinion on America’s oil addiction is best described as impotent cynicism at its finest. If only 10,000 Volts save America 50,000 barrels of oil per year (40% of that coming from the Middle East), then I am all for it. Just because you feel completely powerless about changing the circumstances in the world around you, don’t mistakenly think your narrow-minded pessimism translates into reality.
Aug 31st, 2010 (6:17 am)Nice writing Tim, although I do not really follow the logic of your arguments or the attack on Charlie H. Seems rather clear to me that taking personal action like you both do is exactly *not* submitting to the pessimism of realizing that each person is only 1 in 100′s of millions. That said, reality is that conservation and fossil fuel replacement is barely a blip on the radar.