Today I finished the second training module for the 2011 Chevrolet VOLT. Just like the first one, much of the information presented was a review of what I had already learned here on GM-Volt.com…
The emphasis in this section was on the “Driving Experience” that will set a new standard in what an ‘electric car’ or ‘hybrid car’ can be. The review started with three words: Comfort, Quality, Quietness. From there the discussion quickly moved into “Performance”. The 2011 Chevy VOLT will have the feel of a 250hp V6 mid-size sedan with 273 lb.-ft. of torque and a top end speed of 100 MPH.
Based on the recent videos shown on GM-Volt.com and others, I think it will be easy to show that driving an Extended Range Electric Vehicle will be a lot of fun! The “VOLT experience” really shines once you get inside, and that is the focus for today.
Here are some of the new images and descriptions:
When you open the driver’s door, the driver’s steering wheel screen comes to life and shows the current status of the car’s charging system. It shows if you are charging by 120V or 240V and the ETA to completion of charge if it is not already done.
Also, what is the EV range based on the current charge status if you drove away immediately. The current Odometer reading is shown too.
When you close the door there is a synchronized animation between the two 7″ screens welcoming the driver.
(in this image the two 7” high resolution screens are shown side-by-side as animation welcomes you)
If the driver has the keyfob in their possession inside of the car, the START button will be flashing blue. Just push the button to start the car. Shortly after, an audio cue will play when vehicle is ready to drive.
When the car is “On”, you are presented with the configurable driver’s information screen. It can be set to a very ‘simple’ display, or with as much information as you need.
Please remember that these are only ‘sample images’ and not to use these for debates about EV or CS mileage figures. Just like in the first training session there was no mention of gas tank size or charge sustaining mode MPG figures.
There were only a few images of the driver’s display but I found them easy to read and very colorful.
Next came a quick overview of the buttons on the center stack, shown in ceramic white and black.
VOLT customers will be able to easily track the overall performance of the vehicle with additional screens like these which are activated by pressing the “green leaf” button on the center stack:
This one shows the Energy Efficiency for today’s drive based on your Driving Style and where you have the Climate Controls set. There is also a choice for Energy Usage, which I believe everyone here is going to study closely when they take a ‘real’ test drive.
The driving modes were covered again and the three factors that will affect your maximum EV Range: Terrain, Temperature and Technique (driving technique).
It ended with a review of the options available for the VOLT, along with a review of “Chevrolet Connect” powered by OnStar. This is one of the features that makes the ‘connected experience’ really shine.
Using this SmartPhone App, you can pre-program your charging start time and set it to ‘text you’ when the charge is completed. It can also be set to remind you to plug in your VOLT, or alert you when the car is unplugged before or during a scheduled charge. These functions can also be set from your desktop computer through the “MyVolt.com” website. With so many ways to communicate with your car, it seems unlikely that anyone could “forget” to plug the car in when it is needed.
The 2011 Chevrolet VOLT Walkaround Video should be available very soon for your review.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:13 am)Cool, thanks for the new info.
Just because someone will do it anyway, 37.7MPG.
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:15 am)Cool. Great info … This just keeps getting better… I still like it …
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:17 am)Thanks for the pictures and the post. It’s wonderful.
As a detail, one sentence said ” Just push the button to start the car. Shortly after, an audio cue will play when vehicle is ready to drive.” Even though the interval was short, I wondered what was happening between recognition of the fob and the audio cue. What has to happen, in the car?
+15
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:18 am)This is awesome info again – Great post corrvetteguy!
Cant wait for training module 3, then for purchase Day 1!!!
And although there was a disclaimer I could not avoid noticing the lifetime MPG of 190 and the CS MPG at 37.77 (6.8 miles with .18 gallons used) – In this scenario it just shows you how insignifigant the CS MPG arguement really is.
Thanks Again!
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:18 am)273 traction controlled lb-ft of torque in a 3900 lb car, should be quite adequate to make saving gas fun. And no worries of carbon buildup when I’m hyper-miling.
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:18 am)Nice. Another great job Corvetteguy!
Question: Since you can set the car to charge at a specific time, can you also set it to preheat itself, say 15 minutes before you leave for work in the morning every day. This would be good for the winter months. This way your not wasting a lot of battery energy warming up the cabin.
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:19 am)It is interesting that gm makes such a big deal out of telling us not to conclude anything about mpg etc and then in their own screens displays 250+mpg so prominently.. Now who is it exactly that they said was trying to have it both ways? (smile, it’s ok, just amusing)
+8
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:20 am)On the other hand if you blurred those images, there would be people claiming a cover-up, or you would have guys trying to un-blur the images and coming up with the wrong answer….
Oh well….. Keep the information coming!
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:23 am)K White = FirstFail.
I sat and calculatd that CS MPG would have to be 29MPG or less for the Volt to use more fuel than a Prius PHEV, and less than 18MPG for it to use more fuel than a regular Prius (my current car) with my driving pattern.
Given i expect CS MPG to be 40MPG it will use 40 gallons a year less than prius PHEV and 114 gallons less than regular Prius. Volt = Win for me.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:25 am)I wonder what gas equivelent MGP they give the volt when it is using electricity? 240, 220, lower, higher?
+35
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:32 am)Hmmm, things that are impossible… ask a dog not to sniff. Tell a guy to just ignore the two girls in bikini’s having a tickle fight and finish his taxes. Ask politely on the GM-Volt site to pay no heed to data that could be used to calculate CS mpg…
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:34 am)I noticed the Fuel gauge shows 12 bars with the top bar missing as it’s not a full tank. So that could mean 3 things. The bars represent 1 gallon increments giving the volt a 12 gallon tank or each bar is .5 gallons giving it a 6 gallon tank. Or lastly they don’t represent any particualr gallon per bar or at least a common sense number. Making it somewhere in between the numbers.
300 mile range on a tank means the fuel economy is somewhere between 25 and 50.
Only two more months to find out the truth!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:38 am)“Next came a quick overview of the buttons on the center stack, shown in ceramic white and black”
Did they tell you what AS1-2 was?
(my guess was auto-stabilization/stabilitrac)
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:41 am)I know you can do that w/the Onstar ap, or from a computer. Not sure if it can be programmed into the car??
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:45 am)Thank you, CorvetteGuy.
I have question. On the 5 graphic, there is an outline of the car.
The passenger front side tire is red, while all the rest are green.
I am going to assume the red is the drive wheel, but don’t both front wheels propel the car?
If not, I wonder why they bother showing this.
Thanks.
Edit: Oh wait, perhaps it’s air pressure?
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:46 am)Yes, I know you can do that too. I wanted to know if I can have the car preheat itself every day at 7:10 while it’s still plugged into the grid. That way I leave home 15 minutes later with a warm interior and 100% SOC battery. This would be useful in the cold winter months.
+6
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:46 am)Thanks, great info, not because it is really new but because, it is the real thing.
JC NPNS
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:47 am)Looking at those screens feels like taking one of those “here’s the future” rides at EPCOT or Tomorrowland…. except it’s here today. Very exciting that we are finally seeing the logical merger of computer and automotive technology (I know we’ve had on-board processors for years, but the driver interaction always seems to lag far behind). Combine this with the smartphone apps and you’ve got one advanced driving experience. And to think; I used to drive my parent’s old Malibu with a boombox on the front seat to compensate for having only an AM radio with a single speaker in the dash!
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:47 am)Last week, I believe, I brought up some discussion about avoiding jack rabbit starts and delayed braking to improve both gas efficiency/AER and extend brake life. I suggested at the time that I hoped the Volt would help mend the bad driving habits that are so common. Well, hooray!!
Note the display that shows ‘accel’ at the top and ‘brake’ at the bottom with the green ball in the middle. I am willing to bet that the closer that ball remains to the center, the closesr you are to ideal efficiency. Keep watching the ball and it will tell you to lay off the accelerator when you pull away from the stop light. Keep watching the ball and it will tell you that you took too long to brake, then had to brake too hard and wasted some of your energy that could have gone to regeneration. Oh boy, can’t wait. 
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:47 am)The red wheel is telling you the tire pressure is low in that tire. The tire pressure is 26psi on that tire and 32psi on the other three tires
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:49 am)I hope that the center display can be turned off. No need to waste those few extra watts on a pretty display a seasoned driver won’t care about anyway.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:49 am)for the first time ever we will be seeing mpgs of over 100mpg routinely.
How many Volts have been made to date?
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:55 am)Don’t assume any correlation. Most guages are not very linear, anyway. They are calibrated to give you best results in a particular range. As an example, most fuel guages I’ve seen seem to move slowly near the top, but plummet when you are using your last few gallons in the tank. We like to think linearly, but the physical effects measured don’t often dictate the same linearity on a guage.
Aug 27th, 2010 (7:57 am)So … in 9600+Miles this car is averaging 190mpg!!!
Nice!
Talk about blowing away the competition!
+13
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:03 am)And…. Keep watching the ball and you will smash into the car right in front of you when they make a quick stop.
Had to add that….
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:04 am)I suspect for many people all the energy data will be ignored by most people once the novelty wears off. I think most drivers will be satisfied with knowing the have sufficient charge/fuel to reach their destination. Most I think judge energy consumption by the effect on their wallet.
There seems to be this idea that all this is stuff is necessary to keep the driver entertained, keep him from being bored. I’m not certain this is necessary. I’m hoping that drivers don’t get too distracted by all the parameters displayed.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:05 am)or, for those subject to hypnosis.. You are getting sleepy, very sleepy…
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:08 am)Wow, this car is going to be such a revolutionary experience. It’s amazing how great a leap forward this vehicle will be compared to an ICE with an instrument panel – circa 1950.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:10 am)Heck, the V6 in my small SUV isn’t 250hp. I think I could live with the Volt performance.
+8
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:12 am)CorvetteGuy, thank you so much for both posts. This helps make it real for those of us who will need to wait to see it, “for reals,” until some time next year (New Mexico).
It’s been a very pleasant thread so far. Let’s try to set a record for length of civil discourse .
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:14 am)Thank you CorvetteGuy for keeping us so up to date. The Volt gives me more info than I want or need but who cares, it is such a great car!
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:18 am)Radio and climate control also controlled via this display. Probably care about that more in the long run, enough to sacrifice the 2.6 feet of range per charge that the screen backlighting will consume.
+5
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:19 am)Good morning, CorvetteGuy. Thanks for the additional information.
From what I see, the displays are designed to provide related information that can be recognized in a single glance. GM has done a good job designing them.
When I was working, one of the my jobs was designing user interfaces. I like what I see here with the Volt screens.
Now that I posted, my attention can turn to the posts to see if anyone agrees with me.;)
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:26 am)If I had to guess, I’d say yes, and then they would need to have a safety/energy saving feature that if you didnt enter the car 30min after you preconditioned it, it would power down.
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:26 am)You realize that these display images are fabricated and may not even be connected to a real car. They were chosen to illustrate whatever concept that was being discussed in the training. For example, Look at image number 5 at the battery graphic and then look at image number 6. The charge level is quite different between the two. However, the speed of the car is exactly the same in the two images as is the mileage. Where did the charge go? The answer is that they had a display that was controlled by manual input and the graphic art person would tell them that they now wanted to show this feature or that feature and the operator would punch up the display.
For example, in the tire display the didn’t actually let air out of one of the tires until the warning light came on and then drove the car at 49 MPH just to take a picture.
Draw no conclusions from any of the numbers.
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:31 am)I love the last image where it tells you your MPG for the last trip, and lifetime MPG. This is exactly what is needed to remind people that this is no ordinary hybrid.
In the above picture it shows the driver has gone on a 46.8 mile trip, for a whopping 250 MPG.
I predict it will ROUTINELY be in the triple digits for most drivers.
There can be no doubt about it now, the Chevy Volt is a total game-changing vehicle.
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:32 am)Why would you take all that time to graphically adjust the numbers…. I have a feeling these are good numbers…. just a guess.
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:37 am)Great post! Thanks. Where did you say your Dealership was?
NPNS!
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:38 am)Ha! You will always see me doing jackrabbit starts, it’s in my bones (thanks Mom). A fundamental reason for me going EV in the first place is it allows me to “clean up my act”, by having a high performing car but also having stratospheric MPG. The Volt won’t beat EVERY car on the road when it comes to performance, but it’ll hold its own off the line thanks to the torque. Three years from now, at lease end, I’ll move on to another EV (e.g. e-Tron or similar) that WILL beat everything on the road.
Heh, if it does that I will probably tape over it. Just like those “upshift” indicators that we all saw briefly in the early 90′s model cars. My wife wedged a totchke into the dash to block that one.
As I approach delivery date on my Volt, I’ve been thinking about my current car (a fairly high performing German sedan) and what I will miss about it. On Wednesday night I was tearing through my town’s empty streets (jackrabbit starts, etc.) and ruminating on how I’ll miss things like the roar of the engine at high RPMs, dropping the clutch, even shifting itself.
But that will only happen in occasional brief clouds of nostalgia, I’m sure. Most of the time I’ll be wearing my EV grin, stomping my right foot to the floor, and delivering a frown to the driver of the car in the next lane.
THANK YOU CorvetteGuy for these reports. If I lived within 500 miles of your dealership I would happily pay a premium to buy from you and reward you (and your boss) for your involvement here.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:39 am)What is the exact meaning of the 3 icons (tire, blue-circled road, white-circled road) at the bottom center of this screen (copied from above)?
/Hooray —the site software is accepting my posts again; now if it could learn to BLOCK the trolls!!!
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:40 am)===========================
I asked this exact question when we had the test drives in NY.
The short delay is to power up all the computers and do a self test.
It was only a few seconds.
BTW: Good thread Corvette Guy!!!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:41 am)Absolutely. When testing an HMI (human machine interface) display it is customary to do so by simulating trigger conditions via a computer/switchboard connection rather than by attaching it to the actual machinery. I find it hard to believe that a “low tire pressure” signal was triggered by a tech running around to the side of the car and letting air out of the tire!
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:41 am)Keen observation, Hal, but I only count eight bars! There appears to be a white line half way between the top and bottom and two more; one above and below the half way line. It appears that only two bars are between each pair of white lines. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?
Am I missing something here?
If your right and each bar represents 1/2 gallon then it would be nice to finally find out that the tank is 6 gallons and therefore 50 mpg in CS mode. It’s still wishful thinking on all of our parts but I believe the 50 or better will be the final answer.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:43 am)CorvetteGuy, thank you for taking the time to share the insights provided by the second training module. It is very helpful. I can see this gizmo is going to involve an incredible amount of fun. Not just from driving but from interacting with all the information it provides on how it works. Is there a third training module in the offing?
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:43 am)LOL. I can imagine the first time this appears in a horror movie. Instead of the starter uselessly cranking as the killer gets closer, the terrified co-ed will hear a soothing computerized voice as she screams “Start dammit! Start!”
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:46 am)If you notice there are numbers next to each tire; 32 for the ones there are shown in green and 26 for the red one. I would guess that it is tire pressure and the front passenger tire is low on air.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:47 am)Just what cars will the Volt be shopped against?
The focus of a few contributors has been the Prius and not so much as a competitor but as a car that will be supplanted as the best mileage car around. The Prius, Impact, and such are non competitors. Perhaps they will be at first, but not for the next couple of years. Lexus, hybrid Fusion and other more premium cars will be more direct competitors for the bill of sale.
The emphasis with this module clearly highlights the premium and tech savvy aspects of the Volt. The price backs up the idea that the Volt will definitely not be seriously cross shopped against the hight mileage hybrids, but the premium eco cars. Is this a Chevy or a Buick market?
No doubt that the Volt will be a success with the low production numbers announced.
What will Chevy do, as the affordable brand at GM, to earn the bow tie logo on the Volt?
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:49 am)Definitely!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:51 am)Right on, Jean-Charles!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Have you heard anything on the CS mode mpg of the Ampera?
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:51 am)Thanks for the information. I like the layout and the fact you can customize the screens. The Volt is an exciting car.
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:56 am)Yes. You can program the Volt to ‘pre-condition’ the cabin (heating or cooling) while it is still plugged in.
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:58 am)Don’t stare at it too long, flmark! You should keep your attention on the road ahead of you so you don’t have an accident hitting some errant pedestrian. A quick glance would be OK.
Your idea has merits and hopefully GM has incorporate such a feature. I would go one step further and suggest that they have the warning flashing on and off at varying rates depending on how harsh you’re accelerating and braking.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:00 am)That was not mentioned specifically. I will look into it.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:01 am)OT again, unfinished business.
(from the last thread):
It wasn’t my list.
The edited hot list — what say ye all?
I’ve removed Grump and a couple of others who have shown less-than-fanatical criticism (vs continuous monomaniacal bashing). Let’s leave reflexive neg-clicking for the real @$$h0|3s.
Even so, these guys sometimes leave a comment which resonates. Don’t give them a +1 if you agree with them, just don’t vote. Maybe they’ll get the message in time.
carcus, you’ve been known to leave a constructive and supportive comment every now and then; it’s only recently that you’ve gotten “stuck” on the “@$$h0|3″ setting. Get a clue and come back.
Review: About a third of our comments on recent posts were delivered by the people on the list above (including comments made by others, which they instigated). If you find this website valuable as something other than a kickball for a cadre of jerks, click “-” whenever you see the names in the list above. At least they can be removed from the top level view.
We now return to the second thrilling installment of “inside Volt dealer training,” already in progress …
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:01 am)When I saw the Volt as a “CHEVY” I am made the assumption the car is to be for the masses. It is a great placement idea and like the beginning of personal computing the price was “kind of” high but did come down ..a lot… and performance improvement was dramatic with every generation change.
Therefore the VOLT being in the CHEVY camp is a “good thing” and promising.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:01 am)Yes.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:06 am)37.77777778 to be more precise.
join thE REVolution
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:06 am)Corvette Guy I read your posts with interest. Wish my dealer was on here. When I get my Volt I will have to make a trip to Lake Havasu City to check on my other house. I will go the rest of the way to Cali and stop in. I really enjoyed your thread today and will continue to read the comments. You provided alot of good information today.
Take Care,
TED
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:07 am)I.ll second that, Michael! But it’s likely that someone has beat me to it.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:10 am)Once the vehicle gets to the set temperature, it would “shut down”. So no safety feature is needed.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:10 am)I agree, staring at the ball toooooo long might have you bouncing off other vehicles in front of you. ;+}
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:10 am)CorvetteGuy or anyone, what do the 3 icons at the bottom (tire, blue-circled hwy A, white-circled hwy B) mean?
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:11 am)The 4-second animation that is synchronized between the 2 screens is very cool. They both light up, and then a ‘swooshy thing’ flies across from the steering wheel screen to the center stack screen and then the VOLT logo fades in. I got goosebumps. It looks like something one would expect on a Mercedes-Jag-Lexus type of car. Hard to do it justice with still images.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:11 am)I love the displays… I wish all cars would present that much information to the driver. The Volt would be worth it for that alone.
Thanks for the information.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:14 am)Tire Pressure – Trip Odo A – Trip Odo B
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:14 am)The A and B are the two trip meters.
join thE REVolution
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:15 am)I’m glad you posted your observation to quell any misconception. Thank you.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:15 am)In an unrelated news, Toyota annonced another major recall yesterday. Could it be … nah, it’s just a coincidence, I’m sure
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:19 am)The Leaf. I agree that the hybrids aren’t in the mix.
That’s the spirit — do more with less. You might want to extend that lease for a year though. My best guess for your replacement would be the BMW Megacity and that may not be really available in three years. Given that for a given level of battery performance, a car with half the mass will accelerate twice as fast, BMW’s focus on reducing the mass should produce one very quick car off the line.
FWIW Nissan has said the Leaf gets to 40 MPH faster than its GTR.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:19 am)In the post above yours, Maharguitar, said: “Draw no conclusions from any of the numbers.” and I agree with him. However, GM would use realistic numbers in its demonstration screens. JMHO.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:20 am)We are now entering the era when you have to wait for your car to boot up before you can drive it. Thankfully car computers are about a million times more robust than your personal computers. Not quite as rock solid as the computers on the space shuttle, but close.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:21 am)Even my Prius and my computer seems to take too long to start.
Must be we have to learn to be patient with the new technologies while they come to life before they can start work.
Why can’t they be like us where we jump out of bed every morning ready to go and hit the ground running. :+} But I have been known to yell at myself some times in the morning saying “start dammit! Start!!”
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:26 am)I hope it was in the evening and not 2:00 o’clock in the morning when people were trying to sleep in preparation for a tiring day at workthe following day.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:26 am)I wish this site had an “ignore” setting. Some sites let you set it so you do not even see post by those you select to ignore. It can make things go much better.
More important!!! Thanks Corevettguy.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:30 am)CorvetteGuy, any knowledge about the “parking assist” option?
+5
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:31 am)I normally leave my PC in “sleep” mode and it only takes ~30secs to awaken; I need ~30MIN.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:31 am)#57
Our salesman, John T., claims to pay attention to this site. Maybe I should suggest that he post?
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:32 am)Yeah. Good to get that out of the way. But did you notice that the MPG display only goes to 250+ MPG. Where are the extra digits? GM, why are you intent on ruining all of our fun! (Certainly a good idea since no telling how many digits you’d need and division by zero, being undefined, might have to be approximated by “00″).
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:40 am)I have downgraded my early CS-mode mpg prediction from 60 to 50+ (quite some time ago). I reserve the right to revise it upward again for later Volt generations.
However, I’m sticking with “50+” until reality (not speculation) forces me to.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:40 am)Its a nagging female voice that plays over the sound system.. turn now!, not now you stupid!
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:43 am)Just wanted to comment, Jackson. As I suggested yestersay, I agreed with your tactic to quell the trolls inane comments but thought that they should be given a chance to make amends and be constructive contributors to this blog. I’m glad to see you post and remove some of those previously sighted. Especially grump!
Lyle has given us a tool similar to chat rooms but better in that it is a lot more fair to all. If after reading the trolls comment initially, we can decide if a -1 is warranted and go from thereon. Once they have been given -10 on a regular basis and their comment is not shown, we can still chick to see it and determine if they changed for the better and become meaningful contributors to the blog.
This is the only fair way to go about bringing back some civility from them. Once again I’m glad you amended your original post.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:45 am)Yes, please more on the 5th image please Vette Guy.
What is the green icon in the center bottom that looks like an omega with some dots through the middle? Is this supposed to be a tire under the weight of a car? What do you think the intention was here?
-3
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:47 am)I have just got to say it! After seeing this on about the 15th post of yours today it is getting to be too damn much. Do it on the first couple of post and then let it go. Plus you have to meet someone the first time before telling him “…’til we me again”. Sorry……
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:48 am)I think one image was left out. This is the image that you see when you open the car door and the car has been fully charged. If it is not fully charged, then you see the other one.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:51 am)No female voices. Unless you count OnStar.
My old 1985 Nissan 300-ZX had the female voice. Nagged me more than my ex-wife.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:52 am)Simple solution: As soon as you sit down, push the start button. By the time you have buckled your seat belt, checked the rear view mirror and put your foot on the brake, the Volt will be waiting on you.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:54 am)Parking Assist option is the standard parking sensors which are currently available on many GM cars. Why this was not standard, I do not know. That package also adds the rearview backup camera.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:55 am)Yeah, I’ve seen that. Unfortunately, you have to register a login to have such a feature: the site needs to maintain an “ignore list” by user. Otherwise, it’s an excellent suggestion. Those guys on the hot list are very skilled at being irritants; and this or getting voted into invisibility are likely the only things which would keep me from responding to them.
No, I think you’re bang on. Let’s not drift into complacency during the ‘troll vacation,’ and keep alert to -10 comments from the following list of jerks:
If five people make a quarter of all comments in a thread (all consistently and unreasonably negative), it doesn’t represent outside, minority opinion; but a minority-issued invasion.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:55 am)The trolls can say much about these screen features an GM can’t say enough! (NOT).
When one looks at all the features that GM has built into the Volt, the price doesn’t seem that much an issue. Every buyer is getting a bang for each buck with this car. The technology in it is top notch!
And in years to come , that price will lower to where Chevy will renew the slogan, “Chevrolet – the Car for the Masses”.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:59 am)It wasn’t my list originally!~! It was Troll Alert‘s! I wouldn’t have put grump‘s name on a list like that. Guess I should have edited it in the first case.
The thrust I intended: Voting only works if we use it.
+5
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:01 am)I may be singing to the choir, but “your worst critics are your best friends”. As a Volt fan, I value the comments from Volt critics…and I’m sometimes critical of the Volt hoping GM is listening. The Prius fan boys can not help it. They are very passionate about their vehicle/brand choice for good reason. Maybe regular commentators should declare themselves as a Volt, Leaf, Prius, etc. fan with their post. On a Prius fan boy site, part of your profile is your personal vehicle. Maybe Lyle should add a text entry box to include your personal vehicle or preference with each post. Readers would know the author’s “car political” affiliation.
Warning the following could considered critical on the Volt:
It is yet to be seen if GM’s strategy in the hybrid/EV/EREV demographic market pays off. If you base it on sales volume, Toyota is still the clear leader over every other automaker. However, Nissan is pushing hard with their production/sales estimates of the Leaf. I believe that the Volt’s biggest limitation is the MSRP. The car buyers still need to answer with their checkbooks if price gap is worth it. Even if the car buyers are willing to pay $40K+ for a vehicle, they have to have the fiances to even think about purchasing. However, the Volt lease price appears to be a smart move by GM to gain customers. Hopefully, most people (and GM) that lease a Volt will have an excellent customer experience. Customers want a great car and GM needs to make a profit.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:05 am)Or, Chevrolet might modify their old slogan to: “See the USA in your VOLT Chevrolet”. GM has done a good job on the displays. Corvetteguy has done a good job presenting us with a great topic for today. Thanks to all.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:06 am)Question for Phil Colley of GM, CorvetteGuy or anyone….
I find it very reassuring that this display shows 3-digit overall mileages (250+ mpg & 190 mpg lifetime) because this helps to convey to a Volt owner (or test driver) the fact of its major increase in fuel economy. My question is whether the EPA might try to overrule these 3-digit mileage displays or even quibble about them?
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:08 am)Yes, Jackson, I like you initially thought it would be 60. Now, I am beginning to believe they will meet the 50 mpg in the target’s bulls-eye. Still hoping that it will be higher though. With them now working on selecting a different and more efficient engine for the next generation, we can look forward to a more improved Volt down the road.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:12 am)While I’ve been openly critical of the cost incurred in creating this “gee-whiz” system, I have come to accept it as part of the “public demonstration” which the initial Volt represents. It is so smooth and seamless that you need an internal billboard to explain to the driver just what is going on behind the scenes. We’re concerned about the need to educate the public about the Volt; but the Volt, in a way, is a kind of education in itself.
Perhaps once people are shown what it’s all about, a more basic (less costly) display system can be debuted in another Voltec offering.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:16 am)The review started
with three words: Comfort, Quality, Quietness. From there the discussion quickly moved into “Performance”. The 2011 Chevy VOLT will have the feel of a
250hp V6 mid-size sedan with 273 lb.-ft. of torque and a top end speed of 100 MPH.
Thanks Corvette Guy for sharing this information. I have no doubt that the interaction experience will be exciting! In terms of comfort, the front seatsexperience seems to be top notch. I read the Edmunds test drive, and have some concern about back seat passenger comfort. It was mentioned that the back seats were warm because of the close battery pack and the direct sunlight from the back window. I realize the potential window heat problem can be minimized with the addition of some good infra red blocking window tint. For people who live in hot climates, it would be nice to know if the back seats do get warmer because of the batt. pack?
+6
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:16 am)JeffB (#91)
I am in total agreement with you. For one thing I am and have always been a fan of the Chevrolet brand (cars, trucks – what have you). But at the same time, these days, I am also a fan of the Prius, the Leaf and the Volt. Call me strange, but I think all three vehicles are GREAT! I have been on the Volt list since right after its inception. Up until last year I was a heavy contributor to the comments on this Volt site. I kind of got “burned out” and frustrated with the wait time for the Volt to reach my part of the country and just basically stopped contributing comments. Although I did continue reading the articles nearly every day, I seldom took time to read the vast majority of comments made on each day’s posting.
At this time I am on the wait list for a Nissan Leaf which will start selling in my neck of the woods late next year. (AND WOULD BE ON A VOLT LIST IF GM WOULD TAKE ONE!!!!) So I can wait on the Volt until late 2012 or have a Leaf in late 2011 – maybe sooner in both cases although I doubt it.
This site has a place for all those who are interested in getting us off oil and reduce our carbon foot print. I agree we do not need negative comments from anyone, but we can ignore them and go on. Comments, good or bad, about the Prius or Leaf I have always found interesting because of my interest in them also. I would be quite happy with any of the three, but would be the happiest with the Volt.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:18 am)Really, Riley! I’m sorry that it bothers you so much. Feel free to ignore it in the future. I don’t intend to stop using it.
Like many others, it is just our unique way of signing off after our post. I think of it as wishing the reader well. And as for having to meet someone the first time before telling him, aren’t we meeting each other initially by commenting on their post?
As Tag does on a regular basis at the end of his posts, “Be Well”
And Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:22 am)These 5 particular people are unwilling to treat any subject supporting either vehicle fairly, and are so immutably persistent that the open speculation is that they are being paid by Toyota for each comment. In the case of these 5, I have to disagree with you. If you really feel this way, don’t vote.
I think you are correct, as far as this goes; but the Volt’s limited numbers/high MSRP has much less to do with deliberate marketing, than with GM’s current financial state, and the need to ramp up suppliers. Nissan isn’t the wealthiest of the Asian carmakers, but it beats the socks off of GM in this department. If a current LEAF at the current price is losing Nissan money, they can still gamble that later sales will make up the difference. GM can’t do this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am not suggesting that we close out all criticism from the site; just the persistent jerks. We know who they are; and if anyone is willing to decide for themselves, they can always click “view comment.”
+11
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:23 am)I agree with you both. At the risk of throwing chum (bait) to the sharks (trolls), I want to reemphasize two major reasons why I think 50mpg is still a reasonable expectation….
For most normal driving, the Volt ICE/Gen can provide roughly TWICE the electricity needed to maintain highway speeds. IOW, using the battery as a buffer, GM will have designed the control algorithms to operate at full load/max efficiency; hence only HALF the power generated will propel the car & the other half will divert to the battery. Thus in this example the Volt’s ICE/Gen duty cycle is 50%, so it can be OFF half the time, using NO gas whatsoever! Why the posters here continually overlook the fact the ICE/Gen, thanks to battery buffering, can operate on an efficiency-improving DUTY CYCLE simply baffles me.
And very importantly IMO, Volt’s Chief Engineer Andrew Farah has publicly said he’s still targeting 50mpg as the CS mileage goal. How can we just “blow him off”?!?!
-5
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:28 am)If you trivialize CS MPG, you are also trivializing EREV feature. You can’t have your cake & eat it too.
In the above situation, there was no need for an ICE in the car.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:28 am)Well, it was right thing for you to do (correct the situation). Fortunately, we do have the voting method to control it. And I do agree with you, we should use it.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:32 am)I’ll agree, Riley.
Be Well.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:33 am)Did not mean to offend you. Maybe I just had a bad moment and let it out on you some. I understand people having a “sign-off” statement dealing with the Volt, but yours just struck the wrong chord with me at the time. Sorry…. as I have already said. Other than that, I think you make some good comments.
+5
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:35 am)Yeeeeehaw!!!!
CorvetteGuy, youda MAAAN!!!
Good work bro!
OK, now on a serious note, the last graphic showing 250mpg means GM and EPA are going to blend the mileage figures. BOOOOO!
Combining miles traveled on gas with electric I think is totally wrong. But that’s just me.
All we need now is someone suing GM or the EPA saying they were driving through Compton and they ran out of gas because the Volt showed they got 150mpg and that was enough to drive through and the car putts out of gas. Then the bloods and crips and nortahnios came in and robbed their azz. Gas mileage and EV mileage should be separate……PERIOD
EPA should read like this..
PHV PRIUS:
EV Range: Up to 13 Miles Per Full Charge
EV MPH: Up to 60mph
Hybrid Mode: 48/50 MPG
Chevy Volt:
EV Range: Up to 40 Miles Per Full Charge
EV MPH: Up to 90mph
Hybrid Mode: 48/50 MPG
LEAF:
EV Range: Up to 100 Miles Per Full Charge
EV MPH: Up to 90mph
Hybrid Mode: N/A
Why do I say that? Because when you are in EV mode there is NO gas burned. When you are in CS mode you only “Dip” into the battery on hard accel or passing (ok, same thing). When in CS mode, when you’re cruising the freeway it’s all gas powered. Ditto in the city.
Same thing for mountain mode. All it does is keep the batt pack at a higher SOC. I like that feature.
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:40 am)lol….
I have to say this again….. GOOD JOB CORVETTEGUY!!!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:42 am)“synchronized animation between the two 7″ screens welcoming the driver.”
This could get annoying very quickly. Is it configurable to be O-F-F?
As far as 4-second start time, I usually take that long to check mirrors, adjust radio, seatbelt, sunglasses and wait for my gauges to settle down. I don’t just take off with a stone-cold engine. All this takes more like 20 – 30 seconds unless it’s really cold and it could take several minutes.
CorvetteGuy, Do you have an image of the display in ‘analog gauge’ mode. I’d mostly turn all this distracting stuff off and just drive.
Also, how big is the ‘key’? Can you just keep it in your wallet, or does it also have the lock/unlock/remotestart stuff on it. Or is that stuff on a separate fob? Does the car just unlock when you walk up to it?
Does the cruise control have an auto-follow (radar/sonar) mode?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:43 am)I hope you are right… But, what you are assuming is that GM could take an off the shelf motor and a battery/ electric motor, etc and come up with a world class (best in class) hybrid design. I still don’t think you can beat a direct mechanical linkage from the motor to wheels with the transmission locked up in high gear. Since the Cruze gets 40 mpg with this motor (and I know GM worked to optimize the Cruze highway mileage), then I don’t think we should expect a 25% improvement with the Volt setup at highway speeds.
Repeated from an earlier post… What is more efficient in between the engine shaft output and the final drive shaft to the wheels.
Motor Shaft output >> Transmission in top gear >> drive shafts for Cruze
Motor Shaft output >> Generator >> Inverter>> Electric Motor >> drive shafts for Volt
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:44 am)Captain Jack! I was just thinking about you …
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:44 am)Nasaman, I was thinking the same as you. Andrew Farah would look pretty silly if his statement turned out to be wrong.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:46 am)For potential CA Volt owners: I just found out that the 2011 Volt will not qualify for the carpool stickers because GM did not file for certification in time. This, in addition to GM not qualifying the 2011 Volt in time for the $5,000 CARB tax credit. Does anyone know why GM dropped the ball so badly for us Californians? These are two wonderful perks that we lost out on!
PS: Thanks again CorvetteGuy for more great info.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:50 am)Just my guess, but I’d go with TPMS info, Trip Odo “A” and Trip Odo “B.”
I’ll go one further with pure speculation, that the center/larger icon is because it’s the currently selected infonugget out of a many-item list that includes these three…
Betcha a donut, by the time I post this, it’s answered several other times already
-15
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:51 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:51 am)I thought they didn’t qual because it didn’t meet the low ZEV or PZEV or whatever it was called…..lol (can’t recall the correct acronyms).
I’m pretty sure that is why no carpool sticker for the Volt. Not that CA has the $$$ to get them made…lol
I know how broke CA is.
/Broke Azz CA!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:52 am)The EPA may control the cars’ window sticker, but I don’t see them controlling driver information of the actual performance data.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:53 am)So which screen can I get VIVID movies on? or Playboy?
/……trailer park maggot alert.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:54 am)Amen brother.
HEMI will be hard to give up as well. But, it’s on it’s last legs as a viable car for this decade and beyond.
I want ‘squeal tires’ mode, not eco mode. We will see how close ‘sport mode’ comes.
I think we are both Volt SS candidates!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:54 am)No doubt the Volt will belong in the Chevy camp in the near future. Gen II will prove your analogy right soon enough.
What we have to buy right now just isn’t in the Chevrolet demographic. It’s a much, much more upscale car. Definately not a Toyota and Ford competitor, but a car in a class of it’s own. It’s not pretentious nor is it basic. Nothing frivolous (like that parking assist nonsense) nor cheap, (no roll up windows).
I wouldn’t mind seeing an electric division of GM cars and wagons (that’s small SUV’s and micro vans). This way we would have more confidence in the sales rep, the mechanics and the pricing.
Until then, I guess you’re right about the placement in Chevy. The company will have an excellent line up within the next 3 years and the Volt will increase Chevy awareness as a new American manufacturing company.
As far as cross shopping against the Twig appendage, Leaf buyers really are shopping for a dedicated commuter car or limited mileage vehicle of some sort. Planned mileage and no gasoline. The Volt, as an electric car, only has a 40 mile range and just isn’t enough for dedicated EV shoppers hoping to have quite a few more choices soon. That market is for only about 20% of the commuter market and some other niche areas.
I really like the Volt for what it is. Make one a little bit larger and find a way to make it a little less expensive and GM has the makings of the new American family sedan.
Aside from that wish, it’s amazing that it’s actually being built.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:55 am)Thank you, Riley. The trolls here over the last few days have gotten to me a bit. Therefore, Jackson and I have been a little hyper too. I can understand where your coming from. On an off note, let me say, it is good to have you back posting here. I was getting a little burned by the trolls but am glad I didn’t drop out. Lately, CorevetteGuy has been feeding us really good info.
Gm-volt.com has become an addiction with me; I don’t feel good if I don’t have my fix of the Volt posts each day! Most of the time, it is exciting. Give’s me hope for my children future. This forum brings together many topics, far better than listening to the news
Be Well!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:58 am)Hey, where’s your pic/ava thingie?
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:00 am)The welcome animation looked like 4 seconds to me. It does not take 4 seconds to start the car. I’m certain that if you jumped in fast and hit the start button, that would over-ride the animation and just start the car.
I’ve not seen any analog gauges sample for the drivers screen. Unless something changes, I don’t think that is an option. But I don’t know yet.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:01 am)Hey dude, what’s going on with the EV Focus? Did Ford come out with a price yet??
/jus curious. been offline for a loooong time
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:03 am)Thanks for the post. Nice write up.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:04 am)Don’t know. I keep looking and looking but Ford seems to be pretty clammed up on the subject. i don’t think there’s been anything notable for several months.
purely speculation, but I wonder if Leaf pricing/production announcements have made Ford re-evaluate their plans with the Focus EV
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:08 am)Generally I’d agree with JeffB@#91 that the value of a discussion depends on a variety of viewpoints. I’ve always found your contributions very useful. But yesterday you seemed more than a bit chippy, and it seemed that you went out of your way to insult Chelsea Sexton — the comment about her wanting her old job back was not cool. I’d like to see the old Carcus (be it 2 or 3 or whatever) back.
There is a line between challenging someone’s positions and getting personal, which I believe is crossed by creating a “troll list”. So FWIW I get why you’re put off.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:09 am)Good speculation. I recall them insinuating the batteries were way more than 50% of the cost of the car.
I’ve been looking to but not much publicity on it. Hope they get their act together, the more EV’s the mo betta!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:13 am)I think the Focus is going to be a loser. One problem of just taking an ICE vehicle and turning it into an EV is that (1) the packaging won’t be great; and (2) the design won’t be optimal. The former is pretty obvious. With respect to the latter, the number one killer of good MPG in an ICE vehicle is mass, but when you get to EVs it’s aero and electrical loads. So the design of an ICE vehicle will invariably be less aerodynamic than it should be since not enough design time was devoted to it.
+8
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:14 am)I firmly believe that the 2nd drive path can be made more efficient. Why? For these reasons:
1 – The 1.4L Cruze engine has to generate suffient power over a very wide rpm range (~800 -8,000), whereas the Volt’s version is tuned for max efficiency at a very few nearly-fixed rpms
2 – As I argue in post #100, the Volt’s ICE/Gen can operate on a DUTY CYCLE thanks to the buffering action of its battery; the Cruze ICE can’t —it operates on a 100% duty cycle
3 – IMO, the efficiency gained by 1 & 2 (perhaps as much as +100%) will MORE than offset the relatively limited inefficiencies of the gen/control elec’s/motor (probably under -25%)
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:18 am)The voice of reason post of the day.
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:20 am)Do some searching. There have been entire articles written on this subject, a couple weeks ago when it came out. There are valid reasons for it. GM says 2012 will qualify.
Go up and give it a +1. When I came across it, it had a -1, probably because some think it’s heading off into hater territory. Not at all.
FYI, LRGVProVolt, I also find your sig visually annoying. Have you tried the blink tag?
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:24 am)Wha? There’s a blinkt tag???
Show me, show me, show me….
-3
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:25 am)She went out of her way to try and wash down GM’s 230 mpg announcement as well as defending Colley when no defense was warranted (she’s a bit of a reporter herself, so I suppose she feels a need to maintain relationships with needed sources). She also threw Lyle in with the “no fact checking-lazy reporter” pile when that wasn’t warranted either.
As far as chippy goes it looks like she can measure up with the best of us and hold her own.
Maybe I should put a little smiley face with my comments too. 
I just call ‘em like I see ‘em. Chick, mini-celebrity …..doesn’t matter to me.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:26 am)#4
Amen. +1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:29 am)I think holding the brake pedal is part of that equation, but yeah, sit/brake, hit the button, do the rest of your preps. Makes sense. ::thumbsup::
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:33 am)Unless a signoff is somehow abusive, life is FAR too short to worry about signoffs. JMO.
Be well
Tagamet
-5
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:33 am)Keeping discussion constructive is really a challenge. But let’s give it a shot…
That value is only the automaker projection and only for highway. The actual EPA estimates are not available yet and we already know that city will be lower based on estimates from other Cruze markets.
Early reports put Cruze city at around 29 MPG. The estimate process weighs city at 55% and highway at 45%. So even optimistically, we’re looking at a combined value of around 35 MPG.
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:34 am)Great job, *again* CorvetteGuy!
I hate you.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:35 am)Nissan’s probably out in front of everyone else on battery pricing.
This could be a problem for the Focus, especially not being a purpose built EV. If their AER is down by 10 or 20 miles and they’re asking an extra few thousand then it’s not going to look so good.
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:38 am)I, for one, don’t. Andrew would have nothing to gain by saying such a thing, if it were to be proven wrong at/by the release date.
Despite our natural curiosity, I’m trying my hardest to ignore ANY numbers before the car hits the street for real. That’s the only true evidence of anything.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:42 am)Cap’n Jack, sometimes your moments of insightful lucidity catch me off guard. Nice deduction!!
(Perhaps you ran out of Kahlua?)
EDIT/PS: I am a bit disappointed too… but only if that’s the ONLY way to have the data represented. Maybe they’ll show it both ways based on an option? If not, there’s always the next firmware update!
+8
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:44 am)I forgot to mention: DVD player is standard and works when car is in Park. You’ll have to bring your own porn discs. Sorry.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:46 am)You may be correct, but IMHO Ford cannot be counted out. They have been producing hybrid vehicles successfully, making a profit, and generated a lot of excitement about their new product designs and offerings. Plus they have a plugin coming out soon.
So it will be very interesting to see how an all electric small truck, the plug-in and the Focus do over the next 2 years. Exciting times for GM and Ford to bring back some zing for these companies.
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:47 am)Hmm. Let’s see if my neg count for any comment rises above 5.
… and yet, voting is part of that freedom.
Hmmm ….
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:48 am)If they are truly forward looking should we expect all of this video in 3-D with or without glasses?
BTW – would 3-D porn be a little scary if not intense… ;+]
-1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:48 am)More like channeling him! LOL!
-10
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:50 am)(click to show comment)
-9
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:50 am)Everybody in favor of censorship….. say aye! LOL
Let’s see if my + count rises above 5 on this one…. I’m thinking it will. Boys, stop playing with your union cards and vote!
-1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:51 am)Jack!! You shock me.
*cough*(the center display plays DVDs)*cough*
Just don’t be watch while driving. Please. I beg of you.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:52 am)responding to people who don’t seem to understand the point of your post is really a challenge, but lets give it a shot…
Cruze city mileage is irrelevant to the discussion. We are wondering what the 1.4 is capable of so we can compare it to the Volt. 40 mpg is a good guess at what the Cruze is capable of so we start there.
The Cruze highway mpg number is 3 over the current Cobalt number (37) so it is not a stretch to assume the Cruze will get 40 mpg highway.
Hybrids typically will not benefit much from highway traveling so we can assume that the 40 mpg is a good number to use for comparison to a Volt like vehicle in CS mode. I am going to assume that CS mileage for the Volt will not show a large city/highway spread based on the fact that many of the hybrids don’t show much of a spread. Given these items to ponder then we can assume that the 1.4 in a chassis like the Volt is generally capable of 40 mpg. This is an optimal number since it comes from the highway mileage.
This allows us to ponder whether the Volt power train can beat the efficiency of the Cruze power train in its most optimal position (i.e. highway mpg).
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:54 am)I have my deposit placed at a local dealership. I want to know if we will be able to test drive a production car before the initial delivery.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:54 am)Word! Why don’t the trolls go hound THEIR fansites for a while? Complaining about FORD’s lack of openness?
Like… six or eight years…
(sorry Ford, you take ‘em for a while).
EDIT: +1 to your comment.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:55 am)This is where I come down on this. I see the Volt at 40mpg city and highway in CS mode.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:55 am)CS mode in city driving will offer many opportunities for the ICE to shut off. GM has stated the ICE will usually run at 1800rpm. The ICE will remian running during highway driving. If it pulses between 2000rpm and 1200 rpm (idle). The CS mpg will easily be over 40.
City 50 / highway 44 in CS?
We have seen miles/fuel use numbers leading us to believe the CS is 38mpg during early testing. We have also heard a target of 50mpg. And heard a 2009 test result report of low 40′s CS. The Volt is being refined and tuned in 2010. One Edmunds photo shows a radical change to the rear quarter panels and what looks like smaller side view mirrors being tested.
6 cylinder performance with the mpg of a scooter.
BTW: The electric GEM car displays bars of charge. I believe it’s 8 green bars total. The bars don’t equate to any particular range or time. It takes about 45 minutes to charge up one bar. A bar lasts about 10 minutes.
=D-Volt
-10
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:00 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:00 pm)My dealer says, “No”. He will provide a pre production car for demo drives sometime in November. This is the car his repair crew will use for training.
=D-Volt
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:00 pm)… and so’s your signoff. Short, I mean.
Dang! Six whole letters. Time to unclench
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:01 pm)Carcus:
Of the five people on the “hot list,” you are the least qualified to be there. You’ve put yourself there over the past week or so by “channeling’ the other four. As your Ford Focus comments in this thread indicate, you are capable of meaningful input. You can be an asset when you get your butt off your shoulders, and into the “down and locked position.” If you’re not careful, you might find that it has permanently relocated itself, as it has for the rest on the list.
Jackson
PS: How’s this for a sign-off:
Voting is your most valuable right. Use it.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:06 pm)Ha ha. Maybe that would do it. FWIW I didn’t interpret her comments the same way you did. That may be because I thought extrapolating from the video was silly in the first place. My interpretation was that she was making a valid point that GM was being criticized unfairly — if they released the MPG before the standard was finalized they were wrong and if they didn’t release it they were wrong. Since I do my fair share of criticizing I figured it had to be more or less reasonable.
I will grant you that she knows and likes some of the people on the Volt team and that this can make a difference in your viewpoint. But the same is probably true of Lyle, and I’m not sure it’s necessarily a bad thing to have walked a mile in someone’s shoes, so to speak.
Anyway, I’ll bet you a pizza the MPG turns out to be close to 40+ on the standard City/Hghwy, assuming we’ll ever really know. (if there’s not an official cycle some people will report 60 MPG and some 25 MPG). This isn’t based on anything technical, more on just reading the tea leaves inherent in the comments by Lutz and Farah.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:07 pm)*** WHEW!!! *** Thanks for that, CG!
And since I didn’t say it already (just +1′ed the others saying it), thanks again for another great article!!
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:16 pm)If my memory is correct, you have to put your foot on the brake first before pressing on the ‘start’ button.
So it’s : you sit, press on the pedal, hit the start button and then buckle up while the start up procedure is executed by the car.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:17 pm)My personal guess is they’ll hit 40 MPG, but it really doesn’t matter. Given the Volt’s class size and the drive cycles it will likely be used for, over 10K miles you’d expect about 9K of those miles to be in EV Mode. (Put in technical terms, I think the utility factor used in J1711 is not the same for a compact car as for all cars, and I think the assumption of only once a day charging is unrealistic). The last 1K would use 25 gallons of gas at 40 MPG or 27 gallons at 37 MPG. The 2 gallons might be a double digit percentage difference but as a practical matter it’s not worth worrying about.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:20 pm)It is the tire pressure warning light. My 04 Toyota Solara has it and it shows up when your tire pressure is low or if there is a sudden change. It’s a universal standard icon and it will have to be in all cars soon. It’s pretty cool that the Volt tells you the actual tire pressure in each tire.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:23 pm)Up to 100 mph I’m pretty sure.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:25 pm)I have a Solara, too. That light is for all tires; including the spare. Given that you have to get the light reset at the dealer, and with no further on-dash guidance, the light can become a frustration fairly easily. Kudos to Toyota for still offering a full-sized spare, though.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:27 pm)Glad to see you’ve gotten your name back. The Jackson is definitely better!
I’d just ask you to consider why, if he doesn’t deserve it, you republished the list? As for voting, while I most definitely have shared your frustrations over the last few days, isn’t silencing critics by voting them off the island immature? They’ve helped me refine some of my thinking, such as it is, so the process wasn’t without some benefit IMO.
-1
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:28 pm)i have to admit that i am starting to get a bit turned off about the whole volt thing. i have called several dealers; the most that i got was one dealer in detroit who told me that he would take a $500 deposit to place an order. however, he said that there was no “official” pricing, and he also said that there was no definite time window for when i would be able to expect delivery. so, the dealer was asking that i fork over definite money but in exchange i got no definite price and not even a rough idea as to when delivery would occur. i am sure that eventually gm will get the kinks worked at but for the present time it seems to me that gm is rushing this volt project ahead before they really have their act together.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:29 pm)You don’t have to go to the dealer to reset it, there’s a button low on the dash on the left. You just put the car in park and hold it down… I think it’s on the dash, or in the glove box, i haven’t had to press it in a while.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:30 pm)I thought it was 104 MPH. This limit is probably not due to the drive train but to the tire rating.
Where I am the morning commute gets to 80 MPH pretty quickly. Unless gas prices spike! LOL
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:32 pm)Better than my dealer, they want a 5,000 dollar deposit. And they have no idea either. Best to just wait man, be patient.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:34 pm)I think the tire sensors are a moving target because the technology is changing. In my car there is a low pressure warning light for all tires, but you can drill down and see each tire individually. (Run flats so no spare). If you inflate the tire the light automatically goes off. Very nifty.
My guess is the Volt will work something like that.
+11
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:35 pm)It’s free if you plug it into the side of your neighbors house.
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:37 pm)Because I’ve been getting sick of him. There hasn’t been a dime’s difference between him and Charlie H. over the past couple of weeks. I’ve made two attempts in this thread to ask him to reconsider.
I’ve also suggested that if you agree with a ‘hot lister’s’ comment, just dont neg him (but don’t pos him either).
I’d like to see Carcus return to us; but I’ve given up on expecting him to. Ultimately, whether he proves himself off any commentor’s “list” or not is up to him, not me; nor did I originate the idea of a public list. I guess I’d put him in separate category of “it depends on his mood.”
Just keep in mind that if we refuse to use voting, the bona-fide trolls certainly will use it.
Remember to Vote!
Jackson
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Lay off carcus(1,2,3), he just needs a good stripper to cool him off….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZnuJppyo4E
/it’s all good carcus….
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:40 pm)lol…..AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
You beat me to it!
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:42 pm)My Honda does that.
It doesn’t do that.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Just a little thing that bugs me about that, come to think of it. If you’re fabricating a virtual display image, wouldn’t you make sure that the display ‘suggested’ a very good performance instead of an average one ?
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:44 pm)Maybe my I should have a signoff?
H( . y . )TERS! ……the best chicken wings in town.
/hope they put up a charge station there.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:45 pm)I *guess* I could cut it to just “Be” or “well….”, but using both seems to make some sense. It’s still a LOT shorter than LJGTVWOTR!!
Thanks.
bw,
Tagamet
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:47 pm)Maybe
H( . y . )TERS! … “an owl-themed restaurant.” (wink!)
Aww, I kind-of miss LJGTVWOTR!!
… kind-of.
Remember to Vote
Jackson
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:48 pm)The first dealer I visited said, ‘We here at (dealers name) do not believe in charging over MSRP. We need a $5000 to order your Volt. And we are ordering them Tuesday (two days later).
Needless to say, I walked out of this dealership. The second dealer said, “We charge MSRP and will take a $1000 deposit. The first Volts will arrive late December. We are getting 13 total. 7 in December, and 6 the following few months. We don’t have pricing on options, but the price will be close to similar options currently available on GM vehicles.
I believe he mentioned $44k for the loaded Volt. $500 more for Red paint. $1000 more for Viridian or White tri coat. Also mentioned $289 for interior and exterior finnish protector treatment.
=D-Volt
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:53 pm)This is the part that gets my goat (a bit). Trolls rarely get the 10 votes, and worse, some people reward them by conversing (like Jackson)(g).
Life’s too short. That’s twice I posted that today – prolly linked to “rush” Dr’s appointment today. (lol). Nothing to see here, move on.
Be well
Tagamet
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:53 pm)The Focus EV isn’t the in-house creation/production that the LEAF is with Nissan; the powertrain is being supplied by an outside source (Magna) which means Ford isn’t in total control over the process of creating the Focus EV, and thus isn’t in a position to publicly promise availability dates with total assurance.
Plus they are not putting all their Green eggs in one basket. They have stated they are planning on marketing a whole range of Green machines – hybrids, PHEV’s, and EVs.
Ford’s low-budget approach with using an outside supplier for their EV powertrain and installing it in an existing platform is expected to result in pricing levels thousands of dollars less than Nissan’s LEAF. If that happens, the Focus EV ought to do well against the LEAF.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:55 pm)… or how about
No plug at H( . y . )TERS, No Sale!
Remember to Volte!
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Thanks Jim!
Aug 27th, 2010 (12:58 pm)If I remember correctly, I dropped that when they announced the 10K production limit. *Whenever* I dropped it, it was my little protest for something GM did. (lol)
Be well
Tagamet
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:01 pm)I don’t know!?! I tried checking on it and couldn’t find it. Lost the emails I had saved when I registered. I think they had a data base failure. When I get time, I will renew my registration. But it shows up everywhere else. So maybe its the problems Lyle has been having here lately.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:01 pm)In -20deg winters in Michigan the car wont stay at the pre-heated temp very long. They probably have a dead-band in there, but still think you don’t want your car trying to maintain 70degrees all day on a Saturday in January because you forgot to tell your car you’re not going to work that day. There has to be a time limit in there that eventually tells the car, guess what, no one is coming.. shut down.
-1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:01 pm)… and this is really the only change I’m asking for.
… and this may be the incentive for making the change; lol.
Remember to Volte!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:01 pm)You know, why don’t they (Ford) do the same thing with the Hybrid Fusion and Escape as Toyota is, by bumping up the batt pack and tweak the software. Quick and easy, Toy is already doing it.
They’d have a winner with a PHEV Escape. Imagine a small SUV that gets 12 AER and 40MPG. Shit, that’s a runaway hit right there.
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:03 pm)OK, the displays are really cool, and Corvette guy did a great job.
And now for something completely different:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Lq771TVm4&feature=related
And BTW, I have two signoff tags I use. Does that make me bad?
NPNS
Have Outlet – Ready For E-REV
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:09 pm)Bad Jim, bad bad JIM!!!
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:10 pm)I’m of the opposite thinking.
Taking a Focus and saying “Do you want electric, gasoline, or hybrid drive with that?” can work as well.
Who says the gasoline Focus is not aerodynamically efficient? Do we know the CD? All you gotta do is plug a few holes in the grill which is a fairly simple thing to do. It’s that huge plastic thing in the front. Just mold up one with the holes not punched out.
As far as design of other components go, we are already headed in the direction of not mattering if it’s electric, gasoline, diesel, NG, bio-fuel or Mr. Fusion drive. All the 12v systems will have little motors to drive brakes, a/c, p/s, active suspension etc. and the platform will be drive-agnostic.
Oh wait, kind of like a Volt. Didja think that the sled chassis design is ignored by Ford engineers?
As batteries get better, it really won’t matter as much about aerodynamic efficiencies. Same as now. Just stick a bigger motor in the thing. Bigger motor; bigger engine. Same difference.
I’m just guessing here, but, I think there is enough interest that somebody will make a fiberglas body that looks like the 2007 Volt concept to retro-fit Volt’s that are too boring for their owners.
Style counts. Design freedom = priceless.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:10 pm)You are wrong…
The car would not have made it the last 6.8 miles without the ICE…
In the current situation…
Prius would have gotten 50MPG
PHEV Prius 75 MPG
Volt 260MPG
Leaf – No Gas Used
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:12 pm)I don’t see the LEAF as a target for the Volt – they don’t compare to each other outside of both being powered by electric motors. The LEAF however wears a leash; the Volt has the capability to match up with any standard car.
I can see the Volt going directly after the smaller BMW’s, Mercedes, Lexuses, Infinitis, & Acuras.
Against those, the Volt’s price shouldn’t be a big issue, its handling and performance should hold up well; and as we all well know, the Volt is unique in a very attractive way among them all.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:14 pm)I have one that I use on Hydrogen discussion threads: NH2N (No H2 Nonsense)
Remember to Volte!
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:15 pm)Its exactly the opposite, if Ford is buying EVERYTHING from third party companies where is the profit coming from?.. this will result in higher prices not lower. The correct way is how Nissan is doing it, making everything (vertical integration) and mass production. It will be many years of third party OEM suppliers competing for the cost of the components to come down.
Fords low budget approach is just a cheap way for them to get their toe in the water.
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Tuning for a specific RPM doesn’t buy you much, but the Volt’s very low specific power output (lower than Prius and much lower than Cruze or Civic Hybrid) gives GM a lot of leeway to optimize valve overlap and reduce pumping losses. Whether they (improperly) call this Atkinson cycle doesn’t matter, reduced pumping losses are a big deal. The Volt’s engine should run more efficiently than the Cruze’s at the low power settings associated with highway cruising.
Around town the Volt can cycle the ICE as you describe. Prius hypermilers can get 100+ mpg below 40 mph by manually cycling the engine. The Volt can do it automatically, without the hypermilers’ annoying surge-and-coast speed changes. This will help a lot in town, though the Volt’s higher average speed, much higher weight, less efficient transmission and round trip through the battery means you shouldn’t expect numbers anywhere near 100+ mpg.
I seriously doubt the Volt will cycle the engine on flat highways. Road load should be around 15-20 hp at 65 mph. The ICE should be very near optimal efficiency in that range. Running it at 35 hp half the time and shutting down the other half would not improve efficiency nearly enough to offset the battery losses. The ICE should cycle on and off based on terrain, though. The Volt may well get a couple MPG better highway mileage in rolling hills than on flat ground.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:22 pm)Hey, Tag. I guess there are a few that don’t like to be greated in a friendly manner. They have no sense of civility.
Be Well!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:25 pm)I’ve been saying that for 2 years. +10!!!!
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:32 pm)Hi All–
The discussion on theoretical drive-train efficiency fired up the engineer in me. Surely both views mentioned in this thread have merit. The Volt drive-train does have more components between the engine and the tires. On the other hand, a large battery buffer has the potential for allowing the ICE to operate continuously at higher, more steady-state, efficiency.
By the way, I was surprised to see an inverter listed as an electrical component. Does the Volt have an inverter, per se? From what I have read, it seems like DC current is channeled to the Volt’s AC motor via computerized pulsing. Maybe that is inverter, more-or-less.
Anyway, since efficiency losses are mostly thermal losses (into the coolant, out the tailpipe, etc.) and chemical losses (unburned stuff), ICE motors are less efficient energy converters than electric motors (less heat generated and no chemicals left unburned). Of course the electricity needs to come from somewhere, and I know that fossil-fuel power-plants suffer low efficiency as well. It’s just that they are based-loaded, and highly optimized.
This brings us to efficiency curves for the things under the Volt’s hood.
Here’s an efficiency curve for a 150HP electric motor (http://texasiof.ces.utexas.edu/texasshowcase/pdfs/presentations/d5/rschiferl.pdf):
And here’s one for a diesel engine (http://greenplanethero.com/Star_Engine/star_engine.html):
[By the way, I know absolutely nothing about Star Engine, except they published a nice efficiency curve for a diesel engine. So, no promotion going on here!]
The point is that it might not be hard to imagine operating an ICE at a steady, quasi-maximum efficiency (on its steep curve), while letting the ups and downs of motive power (especially for our friend, Jack) to be absorbed by the relatively flat efficiency curves of the electrical components.
Without “crushing the numbers” I think this is why, at least subliminally, I am so attracted to the Volt and other electricity-based solutions (even including base-loaded central power plants).
Best wishes to everyone!
Chris
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:36 pm)But if the ICE/Gen only *approximates* the efficiency it achieves at 17.5hp when it’s producing 35hp, the control electronics can turn it OFF on a 50% duty cycle, thanks to battery buffering, which should almost DOUBLE the effective overall efficiency! IOW, assuming ~30mpg can be achieved running at 17.5hp/100% duty cycle, ~60mpg should be achievable running at 35hp/50% duty cycle (at a hwy speed of 65mph in both cases)!
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:39 pm)This site wants the IMG tag for picture-posting (but in lower case). It looks like this path points to a local hard drive. Try hosting the image at Photobucket or Tinypic, and put put the URL the hosting site gives between tags [IMG] … pathname … [/IMG] (again, converting to lower-case; shown in upper-case here so that it will appear in the comment).
If you would like to put a pic or logo into the smiley-face thing-y in the upper-left corner of your comments, visit http://www.gravatar.com and follow the prompts to upload a picture. When prompted, insert the email address that you use to post comments here.
Thanks for the support on CS-mode efficiency. I feel like I’ve been trying to explain this until my fingers turn blue. It’s interesting to note that whatever the Gen I CS-mode efficiency turns out to be, it can only improve in future versions: to make the present-day pack last, this buffering has to be kept to a minimum. Future batteries will not be so fragile.
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:39 pm)Yeah, flat…..not good. Curves and up and down, gooood. After A drive like that makes you want to stop off at the drive thru for a burger at……………….In n Out.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
Uhhh,,, dude, your image needs to be on a web server forward facing the internet…… Mr Graham McConnell.
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:39 pm)Was it really a debacle? I didn’t see debacle as much as gobs of free press. It was all over all news stations for days. Even CNN.
The funny thing is they said that 230 was not the number, but, they didn’t really say if 230 was too HIGH or too LOW!
+3
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:41 pm)AS1 and AS2 stand for Auto Store1 and Auto Store2 to store your favourite channels.
Cheers!!!!
Love the Volt, Love this site.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:43 pm)SHRUG. In any case, we don’t “own” the problem (g).
Happy trails!
Tagamet
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:43 pm)lol…….I could take that elsewhere but i’ll let it go……
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:43 pm)Tagamet:
Unless a signoff is somehow abusive, life is FAR too short to worry about signoffs. JMO.Be well
Tagamet
At this point I now agree. Also, I see Capt Jack has not lost his “edge”. Shout out to all you “old timer Volt bloggers”.
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:45 pm)This statement just doesn’t make sense to me as a physicist & engineer —unfortunately, my detailed explanation was blocked, so we’ll have to wait for Lyle to unblock it. Dare I say,
“stay tuned”?
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:47 pm)I also have been saying that from day one (my day one on this site). A $40k car competes against other $40k cars, not other nearly-kinda-the-same lesser cars.
+10 also
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:47 pm)Ooops. Major newbie screw-up. Sorry. Let’s try those images again…
Here’s the electrical motor efficiency curve:
And here’s the diesel engine efficency curve:
Best wishes,
Chris
(Graham’s father)
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:47 pm)I know what those temperatures are like. I would venture that is why the choice is a manual one; the owner can set it to preheat from the plug if its kept in a garage. The other way to condition the cabinet and the battery pack is by running the ICE for a short time: I believe it was covered in a previous article here at gm-volt.com. Was it like three minutes!?! The Volt will automatically start up with the ICE on when needed in this case.
And there is the old engine block heater that the Canadians know about. Same concept here with the Volt but with the battery pack being conditioned. I need to go check on how long it takes to preheat the cabin when plugged in. You won’t have to provide heat all night long or for hours. The system can be set so that the cabin is heated just before you get in the car to go to work.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:48 pm)“When the car is “On”, you are presented with the configurable driver’s information screen. It can be set to a very ‘simple’ display, or with as much information as you need.”
So is this what GM meant by a “configurable” screen? Does that mean no analog gauges?
I really think they should go further with this idea, and even offer different “skins” for the DIC.
Personalization is the future.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:53 pm)Ford’s toe-in-the-water approach is far more careful than Nissan’s – the simple fact is, NO mass-produced EV has EVER met with sales success. Not yet at least. By hedging their bets, Ford is playing it safe in the event that history repeats itself with the new wave of EV contenders.
And if that happens, it will be Ford – not Nissan – who stands to profit. As previously mentioned, Ford is not putting all its Green chips into the EV game’s pot. They obviously do see a successful Green future in automobiles, but what is not clear at present is just where that success will be achieved. So – they are trying to cover as many bases as they can, and likely will follow wherever the market takes them.
I don’t think profit is their objective with the Focus EV. Its purpose is to position themselves as a competitive player in the EV game, and then to let the cards fall as they may. Nissan has put all its chips into the EV pot, and stands to lose it all if the market doesn’t come around.
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:54 pm)What i’m talking about is if the owner has his car programmed to pre-condition every morning at 7am before work, but then forgets and leaves it that way for a Saturday, in which case he sleeps in till noon. Now the car will pre-condition the car at 7am.. and will try to maintain that condition for how long? Or does it just get to the condition once and say.. “well i got the cabin to 70degrees, that’s it. If you didn’t get here in time, you get a cold car”?
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:54 pm)#158 DonC:
“I will grant you that she knows and likes some of the people on the Volt team and that this can make a difference in your viewpoint. But the same is probably true of Lyle, and I’m not sure it’s necessarily a bad thing to have walked a mile in someone’s shoes, so to speak.”
———————————————
No doubt you are correct. I highly suspect that there are times that Lyle’s butt cheeks are just a-twisting from some of the comments made here. I am blown away by the fact that he can just continue ignoring some of them. I am not sure I could.
Lyle, let me say one more time. We appreciate what you have done with this web-site and we look forward to seeing more in the future. And if someone does finally get the best of you, just shoot Capt Jack an email and he will take care of the problem. Right, Capt?
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:57 pm)Damn!!! You guys can post comments faster than I can read them. Slow down just a little. Take pity on an old man.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:57 pm)My favorite sign-off was from “The Real Don Steel” on “93-KHJ-Los Angeles”…. a long time ago…
It was “The Bigger The Burger, The Bigger The Bun”!
-1
Aug 27th, 2010 (1:58 pm)I have a *short* list he can work from in the meantime …
Remember to Volte!
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:05 pm)I wonder if the 40 miles on the display will be a calculated value based on the amp-hours put into the battery during the previous charge or if it will simply count down from 40 every time. It makes a huge difference.
At NASA we had a counter like that on the space suit battery that counted down from some arbitrary value and we almost had someone’s battery go flat during an EVA. From then on we looked at actual amp-hours put into the battery as a measure of how many we expect to get out.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:05 pm)I don’t think you deserve negative votes for this comment. One thing I liked about the Nissan Leaf sign-up was that Nissan has committed to delivering to the sign-up list first in each market area they are starting deliveries to. Now that is what we all asked GM to do. To us this “want list” compiled by Lyle as a basis of making the first deliveried to each locality. Nissan is saying that if you stay with them and accept delivery you will be served before some dim-wit who walks in off the street. Why can’t GM do the same?
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:06 pm)Shared in face book and liked it,
Wondering there is some way i can give a +1* for this post.
Way to go CorvetteGuy !!.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:12 pm)When I design software systems I have to make presentations to management months in advance of actually producing final code. Part of the presentation is screen displays, forms printing samples, etc. I am assuming GM is doing the same thing. It makes sense to work from a mock-up that produces results based on input samples. Just standard practice.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:15 pm)I don’t think so. The purpose of this training document is to instruct the sales guys. I suspect that they wouldn’t have even considered that someone would take this information, do some math on it and try to determine actual vehicle performance. These images are just visual bullet list items so that the salesmen have some idea as to the nifty features to show customers once the cars come in.
Perhaps if GM has a small army of marketeers going over everything you might gat that kind of detail. Most likely these images were created by a couple of people whose job is to make the training documentation.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:16 pm)Well, I guess you can say that I started the ball rolling and we don’t know where it is going to stop. There isn’t really any blinking icons or control codes available – are there? Heaven help us if there is and you find out what they are. Alright, EVERYONE, don’t let Capt Jack in on the code if there are some. We all will thank you!
PS: I must say, Capt, your creativity is pretty good. I like it.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:18 pm)NOTE: Lyle just released a blocked post of mine, one I consider pivotal to the entire question of drive train efficiency: i.e., operation of the ICE/Gen on a DUTY CYCLE. See post #201.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:24 pm)I’m Mike-o-Matic, and I approve of this message.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:36 pm)Remeber the Volt engine is not the same as the Cruze.
They share the same 1.4L engine block but the cylinder heads will be different. The Cruze is turbo charged the Volt generator is normaly asperated.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:36 pm)I hope I am not on that list.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:37 pm)Sorry, I misunderstood what you were getting at. This is one for CorvetteGuy to answer. Anyone else?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:37 pm)You also need some way to communicate the efficiency in EV mode. Two vehicles may both have a 40 mile range but one could use double the electricity to do it. This is important because electricity isn’t free and there are environmental impacts when creating it. Using your example, an electric SUV with a 40 mile range would look the same as a Volt to a prospective buyer, when in reality it would probably take 12-15 kwh to do the same range the Volt can do on 8 kwh.
You don’t really need to list ‘EV MPH’ because the whole concept of an EV that can’t go very fast under electric power (ie. plug in Prius) is going to be quite short lived. In a few years having an EV that doesn’t go normal speeds is going to seem silly.
Here’s what I would like to see on the Volt’s window:
Chevy Volt:
EV Efficiency: 5 miles per kwh
EV Range: 40 miles
Hybrid Mode: 45/42 mpg
Using this information, the prospective buyer can easily calculate how many kwh are needed for a fully charge and thus have a better understanding of their power usage and electrical costs.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:40 pm)Interesting question. I would think it would be based on battery charge level plus previous driving habits of the driver. Certainly should be based on charge level and assuming the driver has developed good EV driving habits that would help to insure good range for the charge level. But, its a guess until GM comes clean. And that won’t be any time soon, I am afraid.
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:41 pm)No. I’m talking about thermodynamic efficiency. Useful work output / fuel energy input. Typically plotted as brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) on engine maps. Optimum efficiency for a gasoline engine will typically come around half power (full throttle but less than half of redline). At 30% load (16-17 hp for Volt) you are typically very close to the optimum. The Prius is notable in that BSFC is 90% or so of optimal even at 20% load.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:45 pm)They have not shown if the “Pre-Conditioning” program is a SMTWTFS setup for each individual day, or if it is just a 24-hour timer clock like my coffee pot has. based on the level of sophistication they have shown about these systems so far, I would think there is a daily “on and off time setting” so that it does not pre-heat on your day off.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:50 pm)Don’t say it can’t be done! If I knew how the code worked for display of images, I would be able to tell you for sure if it could or could not be done. But then again I’ve lost some of my edge after being retired so long.
If you suddenly see me winking back at you, you’ll know that I figured out how to do it. 
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:54 pm)Using that logic, you could run it at 70hp for 25% of the time and have it off the other 75% of the time and double the milage again to 120mpg. Obviously this isn’t true or GM would built a 1000 hp motor that runs only 2% of the time and gets 500mpg.
What you’re missing is that running the motor at 35hp is going to use about double the fuel of running it at 17.5mpg. Your math assumes the motor uses the same amount of fuel to generate 35hp as it does 17.5hp which is obviously impossible. I won’t try to explain this too much because it all depends on the power curve of the individual motor, but essentially you can gain a little bit of efficiency by cycling the engine on/off but it’s nothing like how you describe and it has more to do with the being able to coast without the drag of keeping the motor spinning.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:57 pm)Neromancier, I believe john1701a is right about the engine. The one used in the Cruze which has been sold for some time in Europe is the same engine as used on the Volt. Only the Cruze built for the U.S. market will have the turbo-charged engine. I may be wrong but I’m fairly certain in this case.
I have based my opinion that CS mode mpg will b 50+ on this factor. I have also posted the only rating given that matters is what shows on the window sticker.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (2:59 pm)I just don’t want Capt Jack to find out how. He might go off the deep end. LOL.
PS: I have always “teased” the Capt. Most of the times he understands it is just that. He is a happy warrior. And even happier during and after “happy hour”.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:01 pm)I’d like to see the thermionic efficiency vs rpm curves for the Volt’s ICE. I just can’t believe they’d “go over a cliff” at 3,600 rpm vs 1,800 rpm —3,600 rpm isn’t even close to redline. So I remain unconvinced that GM drive train engineering would use a 1.4L ICE capable of 3-4 times the maximum power needed —then detune it to “top out” at something over 1,800 rpm! Again, I’m a physicist, so show me the curves! Otherwise, your argument just doesn’t make sense.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:05 pm)If the Cruze engine is turbocharged and will be getting around 35 MPG would that indicate the non-turbocharged engine version in the Volt would have a lower MPG overall??
Or is this a case where the non turbo engine is running at a fixed optimal RPM points. These set RPMs will mean better efficiency and therefore a higher MPG for this non turbocharged version??? I know a long question but does someone have an explanation or ……
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:09 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
You funny guys. That blinking feature in html has been “Deprecated” because some big software company thought it was more annoying than useful.
/besides, Lyle would prolly filter the tags out anyway.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:16 pm)Thanks, Dan. I agree. My problem is that I simply can’t imagine that the Volt’s 1.4L engine, however it’s tuned, could be at its maximum thermionic efficiency at 1,800 rpms (barely twice its idle speed). To me, the max efficiency should be achieved closer to TWICE that rpm, 3,600, or roughly one-half its redline. And if that’s true, running the ICE/Gen at double the rpm to generate double the electrical power should allow operating the ICE/Gen on a much lower than 100% duty cycle, right? And if that duty cycle (for argument’s sake) could be as low as 50%, a 30mpg fuel consumption rate should improve to on the order ~ 60mpg.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:19 pm)I’m not an engineer but it seems to me that the drag on the Cruze ICE would be huge compared to that for a generator connected to the same ICE.
When rating mpg, the car is driven for certain durations for city and highway travel to simulate what is the normal average use. At higher speeds, the engine will consume more fuel because drag from air resistance is higher. The generator/motor in the Volt won’t be subjected to these factors. The mass of the motor generator is far less than that of a Cruze where the engine is moving its total mass.
An additional factor that comes in for the Volt generator/motor, that an ICE doesn’t cope with, is emf losses due to internal resistance in the generator. Like I said I’m not an engineer, not mechanical or electrical, but it seems to me that we have discussed which machine is more efficient than the other with the electrical being far more efficient.
Perhaps some electric engineer on this blog could enlighten us all on this topic. I would appreciate knowing whether or not my reasoning is right or wrong. Nasaman, I believe you may qualify in that category. What say?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:20 pm)Once again, the site software has blocked my last two posts. If Lyle can get them released I’ll try to notify everyone which ones to look for & where.
+5
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:23 pm)Thought for the Day:
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:26 pm)What Lyle spoil are fun and freedom of expression?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:27 pm)I would only change one thing in that. Instead “might” put “*MIGHT*”.
Emphasize on the small possibilities that make a big deal.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:28 pm)LOL!
How true, CorvetteGuy.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:29 pm)As a general rule a normally aspirated engine is a little more efficient than the same engine with a turbocharger (or supercharger). The advantage of turbocharging is you can downsize the engine without sacrificing performance. It’s the downsizing that gives higher MPG.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:31 pm)Lets say we are doing 65 mph down the road. For grins, lets assume the Volt and Cruze have the same drag coefficient (they are close). They do have the same tires (Cruze high mpg option used the Volts tires).
The mechanical resistance of the engines is the same (or close). The rolling resistance is the same (or very close). The air resistance is the same (or close).
GM would have spent considerable time optimizing the Cruze engine for highway mpg because that high number is a big sales point. Its nice to have a 40 on the window sticker.
The Cruze, at highway speeds only has to pass power through the transmission which will be in high gear. High gear on many cars is a straight 1:1 pass through. This is the most efficient. Losses are expected to be only a couple percent at most according to what I have heard.
From the transmission, it is a direct mechanical link to the wheels and the Volt must have a similar mechanical linkage from the electric motor. No big differences downstream of the transmission or electric motor.
So, Engine shaft torque only goes through a very efficient transmission for the Cruze at highway speeds before heading to the wheels. We can round way up and assume a 5% loss. Engine shaft torque from the Volt has many more steps. Even if it were a 0% loss, you still don’t gain much on an optimized Cruze for highway mpg.
For these reasons, I think the Volt CS highway mpg number will be near 40. You cannot get something for nothing. City mileage should be similar for some of the reasons that nasaman has put forth.
We will see.
40 is great and not much different than 50 for a backup system. Also, I think that GM engineers will do better once they see that EREVs are selling and they have a fresh design pad to work from. Remember, the 1.4 was an off the shelf engine.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:34 pm)Very user unfriendly. Feels like it’s back to the pre-Netscape era of the internet.
Isn’t their a much more user-friendly way, yet inexpensive, that Lyle could enable people to include images by their name and in the comment section? Or is the problem nontechnical, in that extremely easy-to-use fosters abuse?
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:34 pm)An improved thought for the day:
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:42 pm)Even better yet, current Prius owners or shoppers that traded down from these vehicles. Additional, those that might not have had those vehicles but could afford them and didn’t have enough “other” reasons to justify the premium. The Volt can allow them to get closer to that luxury but still have a technology that is a leap forward.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:47 pm)You missed my point!
Your analogy involves comparison of the Volt electrical traction motor to the Cruze internal combustion engine. But were not comparing those motors.
We are comparing internal combustion engines or, more precisely stated, comparing an internal combustion engine to the generator/motor. The mass and air resistance of the Volt only effects the electrical traction motor; it does not effect the generator/motor which only sees the mass and emf of the generator.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:50 pm)As someone who’s been through this twice, I’d strongly recommend that you pick a new name* (nasaman1 looks OK to me), maybe pick a new avatar, and move on with the new email address. The problem with “nasaman” isn’t likely to be resolved (remember, Lyle has his Day Job fixing peoples’ brains).
*In expectation of future software exclusions, maybe you could start with “Mercury,” and progress eventually through “Gemini” and “Apollo.”
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:50 pm)Lyle just released my two blocked posts —they’re at 239 & 242. Sorry this software blocking problem forces me to have a “double identity”!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:55 pm)But the generator is affected by the load presented to it from/to the drive motor. As a generator is more highly loaded, the gas engine has to work harder.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:55 pm)I know that there are software modules that website authors can use — in my opinion, it ends up being harder to do than just editing tags: you have to guess what the “tricks” are for getting it to work, and you still have to put the image on the web someplace.
As a matter of fact, under “Submit Comment” below, you’ll find a link with the label:
“You can add images to your comment by clicking here.”
I’ve never been able to make it work satisfactorily, but you might have better luck.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:55 pm)To post pictures on this site and many others you generally need a website where you can host pictures then create a link to this site to post it.
Hosting sites like http://www.weebly.com/ work well. You can create a FREE Web site and Free hosting under your control. Create web pages where you can upload your pictures to then post here.
Then on this site where it states add image by clicking here… just follow the instructions. ( I posted a 1915 electric car picture next to a volt on this site in June)
I suspect the same process is true for the avatar pictures by your name.
That is a way I know that works … plus you now have a web site where you can add other information and create a blog.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (3:56 pm)I hate to beleaguer the topic but I would appreciate a little further explanation.
Many times, I tried to embed a picture but the link I inserted didn’t get the picture. It just showed the text of the link. I don’t remember if the text I typed had uppercase letters or not. I had a pathway to an image in my C drive that was referenced. As I said, it only showed the text in the post.
TIA.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. I see several post answer this question since I posted this comment.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:04 pm)You cannot insert a picture by listing it’s path on your hard drive. Your browser knows where to find this picture, but no one else’s browser has any way to know how to get to your computer to retrieve the image for display (and would you want your PC responding to 4000+ requests for a file download?)
If you have a location for the picture which is accessible from the web you can do it (if you use the correct syntax for your computer’s web-location: “galaxy@LRGProVolt.com”*), but most people do not have access to their own router/gateway/nameserver, etc. It’s easier to host the image at some on-the-web-already server which offers this service for free; then construct your path to point at it there. The “img” tag tells other people’s browsers to look for the image at the stated path location.
* assumes that you named the computer with the picture file on it “galaxy” — and you’d have to include the path for the location of the file on that computer
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:09 pm)Thank you I had planned on pointing out that the block was off the shelf but GM has done plenty of work on the engine to “customize” it for the Volt’s application. There may be other differences as well affecting efficiency besides just the removal of the turbo and normal aspiration.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:15 pm)That’s an interesting proposition, and I might try it sometime; but you don’t actually have to host a webpage to put a picture on the ‘net; you can go somewhere like http://www.tinypic.com or to photobucket and follow prompts. It will spit out the worst-looking alpha/numeric soup you can imagine, but it’s easy to copy and paste the path to the “Leave a Reply” editing area. Tinypic even spits out a version with the IMG tags in place (you only have to recall that this site wants the tag in lower-case).
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:17 pm)I agree Captain. Describe it just as it is and let education/experience teach people what it means in practice. This is the reality of the new technology and it is not misleading like a single blended number will be, just different. In time people will get it.
I realize the purpose of a standardized EPA number for vehicle comparison but in reality it won’t be right in estimating my cost, so…
As has been stated many times before, also include a companion chart that shows the effective blend given a range of trip distances. This will help each person pick his/her spot on the chart and estimate the true fuel usage numbers for them.
I also think qty/cost of both gas and electricity should be included since they both incur a cost in the budget.
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:17 pm)It probably isn’t at max efficiency at 1800 RPM and 18KWH output but it might not be too far off of it. Since GM chose a long time ago to minimize the energy through the battery is CS mode as well as minimize NVH, I’m assuming they tweaked the engine to where it is pretty close to max efficiency at normal highway loads. Also, remeber Lutz’ “transmission” and Alex Cattelan’s “coupling” comments. These are certainly vague but they seem to hint at maximizing the power path from generator motor to traction motor.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:21 pm)I agree too, although I don’t feel one number is necessarily misleading. It is just irrelevent for most people, kinda like if the EPA gave hwy mpg at 50mph. I guess that’s more semantics, irrelevent vs misleading, but it is a different tone and has different meaning for intent.
-15
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:22 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:25 pm)Someone else said to include the efficiency rating in a KWh/mile. That’s a great idea but it’s still early in the adoption of EV’s and puttin another figure would confuse the hell out of the consumers. Start with something easy that a person can figure what they will best get.
Blending for a single figure of 2 different modes I think is just a mess. I can see Pat Q. Public complaining to CNN saying “I did not get 200mpg, I only got 50mpg on my 200 mile trip, I was mislead and I want to return this car.”
/you know that’s going to happen….
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:30 pm)Even if BSFC is the same at 3600 rpm as 1800, you’re better off running 1800 and routing power directly to the wheels instead of running 3600 and suffering battery losses. But BSFC is probably lower at 3600 rpm, perhaps significantly. Look at this random engine map:
The best BSFC available at 3600 rpm is about 0.50 lb/hp/hr. At 1800 rpm you can get into that sub-0.42 sweet spot. Now the Volt’s map will differ, but it’s pretty typical to achieve optimal BSFC in the low 2000s rpm with nearly full throttle. Just to make up some numbers, let’s say Volt BSFC is 0.42 lb/hp/hr at 1800 rpm and 80-90% throttle, producing the 20 hp needed at the engine shaft (16-17 hp at the wheels) to cruise at 65 mph:
MPG = 65 mi/hr * 6.3 lb/gal / (20 hp * 0.42 lb/hp/hr ) = 48.75 mpg
Now let’s say BSFC is 0.50 at 3600 rpm, with the ICE producing 40 hp. That’s twice what we need, so half the energy runs through the battery and suffers a 10% loss. A 10% loss on half the energy is a 5% loss overall. So:
MPG = 65 mi/hr * 6.3 lb/gal * 0.95 battery factor / (40 hp * 50% Duty Cycle * 0.50 lb/hp/hr ) = 38.9 mpg
-16
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:32 pm)(click to show comment)
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:33 pm)You’re entirely correct! It’s not misleading IF you know where you fall under the drive cycle the rating was tested under. Not many know how the test cycle is. Knowing you can go 40 AER tells me that my weekly commute will use 0 gas and my weekend will mostly be 0 gas. So in all honesty, spending less $$$ on the LEAF will best suit me.
Now for someone who drives 60 miles daily for example, it’s easy for them to see 40 of it is AER and “some” of it is in gas. Now if we knew what it got in just plain CS mode (no blending) it’s easier for someone to determine how much gas they’ll need.
/not that I can afford a LEAF anyway, just an example.
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:34 pm)When I upload pictures to a free hosting site, I generally keep the path the server gives me in a Wordpad document. Here’s an example of a line:
rachel_jackson [IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/29zaof5.jpg[/IMG]
“rachel_jackson.jpg” is the name of the image file on my computer, I’ve added it so I can tell what the path refers to; I wouldn’t include it when using the link. You’ll note tinypic’s name is quite a bit different from this in the link at right, and this is the path which tinypic spit out when I uploaded the file:*
[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/29zaof5.jpg[/IMG]
Now, I’ll paste the link below, and change “IMG” in both places to “img”:
* It actually spits out four paths, but it’s easy to see the one which has “[IMG]” at the beginning
REMEMBER TO VOTE!
+4
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:39 pm)WAIT!!!
You forgot to include the impact of RDWCDF.
That in itself will ruin CD and kill mpg.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
(R)olling
(D)own
(W)indow
(C)uz
(D)ad
(F)arted
/lol
-1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:40 pm)I agree with everthing except the Volt getting better mileage on rolling hillls. If you meant a couple miles better relative to difference between it and the Cruze, then I would agree.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:45 pm)I believe that since the controller is taking power from the battery at times this load is lessened. In addition, the load is greater when the ICE is excellerating. Since the generator/motor is running at constant state, for the most part at a sweet spot, less fuel is used. Once the additional energy needed to meet the load and get the generator rotating at a constant speed.we are looking at a constant (relatively) load. The inertia of a mass at rest is greater than that of a mass moving. Since the generator/motor is only subject to starting and stopping or changing speeds at very few times, it undergoes less effect from inertia than in the case of a vehicle driven by the ICE where the vehicle ends up as rest many times.
Another point is the fact that the Cruze is a mechanical machine and has greater internal losses do to friction. Since the ICE is only about 36% (not sure if this correct figure but around there) efficient whereas the electric motor is as much as 92% efficient that drag put on the generator/motor will be far less. Simple put, the electric motor transfers the energy more efficiently and the losses are far less than in the case of a mechanical ICE engine used to drive the wheels.
A point frequently made is that the traction of the electric motor is greater than an ICE; the at rest inetia of a Volt will be overcome far faster than the ICE because it is a more efficient machine. This allows the electric motor to get to full speed faster for that setting of the throttle. The generator/motor is thereafter looking at a constant load; it is seeing its sweet spot very rapidly, allowing a higher efficiency.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-8
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:53 pm)Correct as far as it goes, minus whatever extra conversion losses the fraction of the energy shunted to the battery incurs. But why pick 30 mpg ?
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (4:58 pm)Thanks Jackson. I don’t know why but I should have known that. What I thought was happening here was that a java script was extracting the picture and placing in the post. When submitted the whole thing would be sent to Lyle’s server. It’s obvious that that isn’t happening. Thanks for the instructions.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:02 pm)So will this have the radio find, say, 10 strong signal stations and store them to memory?
-10
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:06 pm)(click to show comment)
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:08 pm)Two more posts have just been blocked and my “alter ego” nasaman says he’s exhausted trying to deal with it, so he’s asked me to say sayanora* to everyone today! See y’all tomorrow!
*bye-bye, cheerio, good day, good-by, good-bye, goodby, goodbye, so long, adieu, adios, arrivederci, au revoir, guter nacht, auf wiedersehen!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:09 pm)Two nasaman are better than one!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:18 pm)ALOHA!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:28 pm)Your discussions about engine are way over my head, but GM has said that the genset outputs 30 kW when the Volt goes 65 MPH on an uphill, and that the optimal efficiency of the genset is when the Volt is moving at 55 MPH on a flat. So it would seem that you’re right that the engine has been tuned to max efficiency at “highway” speeds.
On the transmission, GM engineers have confirmed that the Volt will use an electronic CVT. No details yet but the car isn’t just using a single traction motor and a reduction gear.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:31 pm)Ah yes, “might” and “may”, the two great weasel words in advertising! (Good message though, very effective).
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:39 pm)I missed, or early onset alzheimered, the annoucements about electronic CVT. Where there other detials or can you link to a discussion?
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:42 pm)generator motor since that is taking and modulating the load
Aug 27th, 2010 (5:53 pm)I agree the kwh/mile or total KWH for rated AER is needed, otherwise those to do undestand the information don’t have enough of it to accurately estimate the fuel or emission cost.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (6:05 pm)I think in the advertising world, it is called “spin”.
-11
Aug 27th, 2010 (6:06 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 27th, 2010 (6:14 pm)There weren’t any details. At the test drive over at mychevroletvolt.com from a month or so ago there is a video where the engineer starts talking about the motors and says E-VCT just as the video ends. (Talk about timing, c’mon guys). Anyway, in the discussion Patrick Wang, the guy who won the test drive, confirmed that one of the engineers said that the Volt was using an E-CVT implementation. But he didn’t have any details.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (6:18 pm)You “might” be right! And you “could” win $43M just by ordering the new CD “Hits From The 60s”. Only $5.95 plus shipping and handling ($9.95). LOL
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (6:19 pm)For folks like us it’s entirely useful. For Pat Q. Public not like us it’s another monkey wrench in the mix for them to try and figure out how it applies to them.
Can you hear them now…..
“So if the engine is on, i’ll use only xxxKWh to go 27 more miles?”
lol….
-11
Aug 27th, 2010 (6:20 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 27th, 2010 (6:24 pm)All that I can say is that you are missing some things here. You are describing a system that has more output than input. When these are developed, we won’t need the Volt
.
The bottom line, as you cruise down the road at a steady 65 mph you need some amount of power at drive shaft to the wheels (lets say 40 HP and not get hung up on the number) to do that. In CS mode, all of that power comes from the ICE. For the Cruze, all of that power comes from the ICE. Since we are talking power needed at the wheel drive shafts we can ignore wind, and other external losses and just focus on the drive train. Both engines must produce 40HP + losses to drive down this road.
The Cruze sends power through a transmission that is in high gear and is very efficient. Lets use a 5% loss at the tranny in high gear. That means the engine must produce 42.1HP to get 40HP out the end of the transmission to the drive shafts.
For the Volt, the electric motor must output 40HP to the wheel shafts. The generator must produce (40+Loss1) HP of electric power to account for losses to and through the electric motor. The ICE motor in the volt must produce (40+Loss1+Loss2) HP of mechanical power at its output shaft to overcome the generation losses (loss2) and the earlier mentioned electric motor inefficiency (loss1).
There is no way to run the Volt down the road at steady conditions without the ICE making at least 40HP + losses (on average).
Is (40HP+Loss1+Loss2) less than 42.1HP ???
If it is, that is a good trick but it cannot be much less.
All of this assumes that in CS mode the engine will find a spot and run continuously down the road.
All of this is predicated on the fact that I have no idea what the H-ll I am talking about when it comes to the Volt and Cruze drive trains. But, I throw this out there as food for thought.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (8:11 pm)In conventional cars it is not possible to keep the throttle open very often. Think about it, other than hard acceleration or uphill towing how often do you drive around with the gas pedal down near the floorboard? Now, if you put a 40 hp engine and tall gearing in the Cruze you would need the throttle wide open on the highway. But the Cruze ICE is 138 hp to deliver adequate acceleration and hill climbing. You barely need one tenth of this power to cruise at highway speeds. No ICE is efficient at 10% of rated power.
Look at the engine map I posted above. Each black dot is a point where the engine operated during the EPA city cycle. Almost all the dots are at way too low of a power level to get anywhere near the engine’s sweet spot. The Cruze on the highway would probably be near 1500 rpm/40 BMEP. BSFC in that region is about 0.52, significantly worse than the sub-0.42 sweet spot.
The Volt’s ICE will not run at a highly inefficient 10-12% of max power on the highway, though. It should be closer to 30%. That’s right in that sweet spot. All else being equal, the car running at 0.415 BSFC in the sweet spot will deliver 25% higher MPG than a car running at 0.52. Of course, as NuclearBoy points out, all else is not equal. The Volt has a less efficient transmission than the Cruze (it’s also a lot heavier). Because of this, the Volt’s ICE will have to produce more power than the Cruze at 65 mph. But because the Volt’s ICE will be in the BSFC sweet spot, it’s quite possible it will burn less fuel than the Cruze while producing that higher power output.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:03 pm)http://gm-volt.com/2009/10/26/chevy-volt-engine-generator-operates-between-1200-and-4000-rpm/
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-1
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:05 pm)I think you are missing the point of the Volt/ Cruze comparison. If you look at the steady state case with both cars on a perfectly flat road with constant wind, the Volt ICE will have to be working harder.
The reason is that the Cruze engine is connected through a relatively efficient mechanical linkage in the transmission. The Volt electric motor is connected to a virtually identical mechanical linkage, And although the Volt electric motor is very efficient, any losses, (even if it’s only 8%) are additive to what the Cruze experiences.
Moreover, the Volt ICE is connected to the electric motor through the Volt Generator, and the EMF fields in the generator are the linkage.
Those EMF fields are very efficient, but nothing is 100% efficient. Even if it’s 92% another 8% loss is going to have to be made up by the Volt ICE which is supplying 100% of the power to move the vehicle, (same as the Cruze ICE). The battery can’t help you in the steady state or it would be rapidly depleted leading to power fade. And I would assume that GM would design the Volt such that that scenario does not occur.
In the City the Volt has the advantage because it can use stored energy of the battery. But in steady state the battery can’t help you for very long before it’s empty.
-4
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:07 pm)doggydogworld,
By throttle I meant the ICE manifold air throttle, not the gas pedal. My admittedly very limited understanding of ICE SFC charts are that efficiency is a function of relative to max power, and torque. I view torque as a window into manifold pressure, itself mostly due to air intake throttle constriction.
Sometimes I say ‘load’ to mean torque, but I may not be using the term correctly. So if I have not make a complete mash of this, I am asking how the Volt drivetrain avoids this ICE’s partial power problem. Saying it runs most of the time at 30 kw (or whatever) is only a partial answer, correct ?
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:21 pm)Thanks for the info.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:26 pm)The manager of the Chevy dealership in Laurel, MD, told me yesterday that they’ll be getting their demonstration Volt in October.
+2
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:34 pm)Go to another dealer. That one doesn’t deserve your business. The Volt official price, including for options, was announced weeks ago. Check out Chevy’s web site. http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do shows the base price after federal tax credit (with the price before the credit in the small print). Five minutes with Google and you’ll have the option prices.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:45 pm)Cite reference, please. I believe you are mistaken.
Aug 27th, 2010 (9:59 pm)If, by “electronic CVT,” you mean two electric motors connected via a planetary gearset (such that the sum of the speed of the two motors is the final drive speed), it’s possible that you’re correct (though I *WOULD NOT* have chosen that phrase to describe it: a CVT is nearly always a mechanical contraption).
Remember to Volte!
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:02 pm)That’s an oversimplification. The dealer is looking for the official pricing to show up in his official GM computer system. Some dealers are still allowing orders to be booked (I’ve got mine), but I think that’s because they’re just being flexible. Sure, go to another dealer if you want, but don’t deny that a dealer might have a valid reason for saying the pricing isn’t out yet.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:06 pm)Like I said in an earlier post, “I am not an engineer, either mechanical or electrical. My idea on this topic were posted for some engineer to comment on. We know that the generator/motor can and does output more than the traction motor uses; what excess there exists is moved to the battery pack. At high speeds, the generator/motor does not produce enough power to drive the traction motor; that’s when the battery pack has to kick in and dip the SOC below the 30% mark. Mountain mode was created to build the battery pack SOC up to about 45% so when you hit the hill there is enough battery power to augment the generator/motor for a longer time.
With an electric motor, its magnetic field has to be maintained in order to continue at a given speed. But superior efficiency of an electric traction motor compared to an internal combustion engine is what gives it better performance in the area of torque and lower power needs to sustain momentum. During normal operating conditions, the generator/motor will operate and give much better fuel consumption than the ICE used on the conventional vehicle. Doggydogworld had something I thought was relevant.
This explanation by doggydogworld could be the answer; he states that “in the sweet spot will deliver 25% higher MPG . That means if the rating of 40 MPG for the Cruze is correct then 50 MPG is possible for the Volt’s ICE.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:08 pm)Well, it’s down to four names now; so the law of averages is very much in your favor.
Remember to Volte!
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:18 pm)Always remember to use the “irony” tag (also known as the “putting tongue in cheek” tag) to bracket sarcasm; so that there is no shred of doubt as to the intent:
Failure to observe this rule may result in a negative vote or two.
Remember to Volte!
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:19 pm)DonC, do you have any references to back up your statement? I have seen several links which say that no transmission or gearing is used in the Volt.
http://gm-volt.com/about/ says, “The electric motor also can generate a lot of instantaneous torque, making the car extremely responsive, and not require gears either. Maintenance will be low.”
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:31 pm)Also check to see if he is a certified Chevy Volt dealer. What he told you sounds fishy.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:45 pm)I suppose the foolproof way would be to construct an animated gif of the blinking text (no, I couldn’t tell you how to do that, either), and host the file as discussed earlier.
Remember to Volte!
+1
Aug 27th, 2010 (10:46 pm)jscott1000 Says
The reason is that the Cruze engine is connected through a relatively efficient mechanical linkage in the transmission. The Volt electric motor is connected to a virtually identical mechanical linkage, And although the Volt electric motor is very efficient, any losses, (even if it’s only 8%) are additive to what the Cruze experiences.
————————————————————————————
Wait a minute – I thought the Volt’s ICE was in NO WAY mechanically connected to the drivetrain. I thought all the Cruze engine had to do in a Volt is turn a generator at a relatively steady speed.
A Cruze engine in a regular car has to lug the weight of the entire car around, stopping and accelerating, over and over. It seems to me the the Volt’s ICE has the easy job of the two. I’ve never understood why GM couldn’t just use a 2-stroke lawn mower engine to run the Volt’s generator.
Maybe you can tell me how using an 4-cyl engine (big enough to propel a car on it’s own) isn’t overkill when used to run an electric generator. Turning a generator can’t be that hard to do. Thanks !
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:00 pm)Yes, irrelevant is a better word.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:26 pm)Maybe the Volt will be more fuel efficient as I saw on one of the pictures above and I do badly want to see America transform from gas guzzling country into EV heaven. One more time. Let’s get the Volt wheels on the Road! Also one more thing to say once again? The electric revolution shall rein supreme and gas shall go extinct bring on the electric cars oh yeah boo ya!
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:30 pm)But you can find gifs to use. There’s one a saw of a smiley winking.
Have a good night. I’ll see you all tomorrow.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. N Reily would have been mad at me if I would have posted using a gif but I did figure that you knew how.
Aug 27th, 2010 (11:39 pm)Depends on the size of the generator. The Volt’s Generator produces up to 55 kW, that’s enough to power a few houses. It takes 74 hp to turn it at maximum output. It still only produces about half the power the motor can draw, the rest has to come from the battery for short bursts of acceleration.
If they made heavier use of the battery as a buffer they could probably get by with smaller generator and engine. That would be at the cost of battery life though.
Aug 28th, 2010 (1:22 am)This. My dealer went through the exact same situation. I had taken a look at a thread over on the chevrletvoltage forums where a few people had the same problem. A social media manager over there named Angie helped me out. She personally called my dealer and talked to the sales rep I had been dealing with, and got their system set up correctly showing the pricing, etc. I’ll be calling them in a few hours to finally put my order in.
Aug 28th, 2010 (1:36 am)First Bob Lutz said GM had come up with a transmission that no one else had even thought of. Then I think Larry Burns alluded to it. Then the engineers during the CA test drive this spring alluded to it. And then Rob Peterson, when denying that there was a mechanical connection between the ICE, said “We have a very innovative drive unit that includes a number of clutches and a planetary gear-set which is highly efficient and exists in our pre-production vehicles today. For competitive reasons we won’t provide more details on the operation at this point, but will soon.” http://gm-volt.com/2010/06/27/opel-ampera-journalist-test-drive-questions-high-speed-performance/ And last month the engineers during a test drive said the Volt had an E-CVT implementation (cite in moderation).
As for specifics, probably some variation of this: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/5558589
Aug 28th, 2010 (2:46 am)Sorry nothing until now, I’ll let you know ASAP if I get something new but Opel which was overcommunicating a few months ago is very quiet now. I hope the “Mondial de l’automobile” in Paris next October will give some info.
Best regards,
JC NPNS
Aug 28th, 2010 (7:37 am)I would be doubtful that much could be saved with a basic (less costly) display system. The display is software driven using data already in the Volt computers for control and other reasons. Changing the software to display less information really won’t result in much savings.
I seem to recall others saying the displays can be user customized. If so, perhaps those who prefer a more basic display can do so with the customization option. I, for one, really like what I’m seeing with the driver and center displays.
I’m hopeful that the center display can be changed into a GPS display. Perhaps that capability is already there and I just didn’t pick up on it in previous threads.
+1
Aug 28th, 2010 (7:56 am)Oops. Never mind.
Aug 28th, 2010 (10:31 am)Well, in most cars they are mechanically linked so throttle plate in wide open position = gas pedal on floorboard. Of course that doesn’t apply to the Volt.
I don’t know how the Volt drive train works. My mental model is a pure serial configuration, with no mechanical connection between the ICE and wheels. But the Volt apparently uses GM’s two-mode transmission, or at least major pieces of it. If so the ICE may drive the wheels directly at highway speeds in CS mode. This would be good news for highway MPG, all the discussion of the Volt’s “inefficient electrical path” would go by the wayside. But until GM clues us in it’s hard to say exactly “how” the drive train keeps the ICE in the BSFC sweet spot.
The exact “how” is less important than the “why”. The reason why the Volt can be in the sweet spot on the highway is it has a low power/low rpm ICE that must run at 30% of max power to produce the 18-20 shaft hp needed to sustain highway speeds. A vehicle like the Cruze, which runs around 10% of max power on the highway, cannot stay in the sweet spot no matter how you gear it.
LRGVProVolt, I said “all else being equal”. All else is decidedly not equal between Volt and Cruze. The Volt is heavier, which will cost 5-10% on the highway. If the Volt uses a pure serial connection between ICE and wheels it will lose another 10-15%. In that case I doubt Volt highway MPG will be higher than Cruze, and might well be a bit lower. If the Volt uses a two-mode transmission so the ICE can drive the wheels mechanically, I think 45-50 highway mpg is possible.
+2
Aug 28th, 2010 (12:10 pm)I want to know what “link” on the Internet all these people are quoting from claiming the series connection cannot best 85% efficiency. They all say the same thing without variation- automatic 15% loss.
While losses such as this might be “typical” of existing series configuration (i.e. diesel-electric locomotives) the Volt is using a totally different powertrain in terms of execution of design, materials, and operational strategy. As many of you shall soon see it literally breaks the mold.
AND
The BSFC rating of the Volt’s range-extender engine only tells a small portion of the “full-range” story.
Sometimes “efficiency” can be sacrificed in the short term to burn LESS fuel!
WopOnTour
-3
Aug 28th, 2010 (2:12 pm)I know of two venues that have lead to that number. One is counting up the presumed losses at each of the components along the way; the second is based on energy losses seen in the Prius for energy that takes the battery route. The first speculation is common in the engineering section, I’m sure you have seen the posts.
I personally say 15% /*average*/, knowing some of the ICE energy will take a fairly direct path, and some the battery pathway.
-3
Aug 28th, 2010 (4:29 pm)imo- The quickest path to upping the efficiency would be to allow for a large “buffer zone” in the battery , letting the Volt’s genset run for long periods at optimum efficiency (in contrast to what GM had previously said and shown in graphical representation that the buffer zone would be relatively tight). This would have the downside of putting many more short cycles on the battery and shorten overall battery life. The critical summation of this approach would be that you’re sacrificing long term true cost of ownership in order to burn LESS fuel in the short term.
-2
Aug 28th, 2010 (5:02 pm)Except then all the conversion losses that go along with shunting energy to the battery, rather than sending it directly to the motor come into play.
-3
Aug 28th, 2010 (5:20 pm)True, but I don’t think those losses will be much.
-4
Aug 28th, 2010 (5:22 pm)Whose mold?
http://www.udel.edu/V2G/docs/ICAT%2001-2-V2G-Plug-Hybrid.pdf
+1
Aug 28th, 2010 (5:28 pm)When I found out how this number was calculated it was a disappointment for me. Drive 40 miles on energy source one then 8 miles on 0.21 gallons of gas, add all those miles together is 48 miles on 0.21 gallons and say the average is 230 mpg.
There are a number of cars on the road which can do much better than this 230 mpg because they have a longer range before they need to use gas. I even found one that is made by GM it is the Chevrolet Spark 1.0 LS BiFuel
Still I think the Volt is the better car because it uses electricity as the first energy source and the Spark BiFuel uses LPG. So the PEF (petroleum equivalence factor) is better for electricity than for LPG. But also the PEF which the EPA is going to use as far as I know will be controversial.
If you don’t want any discussion you will need two numbers, as many people suggest, for the Volt that is mkwh and mpg, and also the EV range is important off course.
-3
Aug 28th, 2010 (7:47 pm)EV today from the grid *is* NG, with some coal for after taste. Check out the recent Sci American article.
-6
Aug 28th, 2010 (8:42 pm)Goldmine!
http://books.google.com/books?id=uTiSu1mbBa8C&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=An+Electromechanical+Transmission+for+Hybrid+Vehicle+Powertrains,%E2%80%9D+SAE+paper+no.+710235,+Jan.+1971&source=bl&ots=moxGfz2atP&sig=KnL43POJxNufEL3XUdzJfiezbb0&hl=en&ei=5LR5TOGLKsGclgf3093sCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
In which the engineering basics of hybrid drivetrains, including eCVT transmissions, are combined in a monograph. Voltards should take note of of the era when these concepts were ironed out and took practical form. Hint: it ain’t the last 3 years. Or the last 10, or 20 …
Interesting legacy for Pres Clinton’s PNGV program.
Thanks to Bob Wilson at PriusChat for the find. It had eluded my googling.
-6
Aug 28th, 2010 (9:07 pm)More interesting books:
Modern Electric, Hybrid Electric, and Fuel Cell Vehicles
Author: Mehrad Ehsani
Electric and Hybrid Vehicles: Design Fundamentals
Iqbal Husain
Voltards should pay particular attention to the author names.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (1:47 am)You folks that are not engineers need to take a physics class before we can explain this to you. It’s been laid out several times and some of you just don’t get it.
There is no free lunch in physics. You can’t mate up a little 2 hp Honda generator and expect to make enough electricity to push a 3,000+ lb car down the highway. In charge sustaining mode the gasoline engine has to generate as much power and then some as if it were driving the wheels mechanically.
In my post above I said the Volt ELECTRIC motor is connected to the wheels not the ICE. The ICE is connected to the generator. The energy from the Volt engine has to go through a couple of conversions before it ends up at the wheels. How efficient those conversion are we can only guess until GM releases the numbers. But everything else being equal it’s hard to imagine the CS mpg better than the highway miles on the Cruze.
-1
Aug 29th, 2010 (9:11 am)And considering your comment from a couple of days ago:
Even if 15% is the number (which may be a little high but doesn’t seem too far off in either direction), how less efficient do you think the Volt’s ICE must be?
Aug 29th, 2010 (10:44 am)Any information yet on the Android OS in the car?
-1
Aug 29th, 2010 (12:52 pm)EV-sized electric motors are generally 80-90% efficient. Really good ones hit 95%. Here is a Japanese “breakthrough” motor which peaks at 96% and manages 93% or better over a wide operating range:
http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2009/04/06/japanese-researchers-breakthrough-96-electric-motor-efficiency/
Generators are the same as motors (literally in the case of EVs, since the traction motor operates as a generator during braking). If the Volt motor and generator each average 94% efficiency, which would be superb, and the power electronics are 96% efficient (also superb), then ICE shaft to traction motor output shaft efficiency would be 85%. In reality it will be extremely difficult for the Volt to achieve 85% over a full driving cycle, but it might be possible at certain optimized points. Hopefully 65 mph is one such point.
Look at this GM Two-Mode transmission presentation (warning – PDF):
http://www.che.ncsu.edu/ILEET/phevs/plug-in_2008/1A-1_GM%202-ModePHEV%20VUE.pdf
Notice the pains they went through to reduce power sent through the “inefficient electrical path” and how they trumpet their ability to send a higher portion of the power through the “more efficient mechanical path”. This isn’t just marketing, it’s the real deal. The original Volt concept was a pure serial design drive train. That’s quite simple and elegant but I think the engineers decided the ugliness of some plantetary gears and clutches was a price worth paying to improve efficiency and reduce motor/generator cost. I also think it’s the right decision.
+1
Aug 29th, 2010 (11:18 pm)LOL
You’re a preachin’ to the choir dog!
WOT
-1
Aug 30th, 2010 (10:51 am)So if we’re back to the Volt being a series/parallel design (again) , then the premium fuel makes more sense.
Sure is a lot of cloaking in this totally ‘open’ design process. I suppose it was pretty naive to assume it ever was.
Aug 30th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Fantastic information Corvetteguy.
Really appreciate this level of editorial refinement.
Thanks again.
(/…back to work to work up the down-payment.)
+1
Aug 31st, 2010 (4:47 pm)I recommend an audio feedback, like a spoecial tone that increases its frequency as the ball rides higher, and vice-versa. Maybe if you react too fast, the car can even squeal at you!!
Raymond
Sep 1st, 2010 (11:20 am)It looks like a nice design. And probably that is all it is. They do not mention how what the seals are on the rotor.
Sep 1st, 2010 (6:49 pm)If the piston ICE engine was increased by 5% they would shout it from the rooftops.