Aug 24

Video: Chevy Volt Does 0 to 60 in 8.53 seconds, Gets Over 40 Miles EV Range and Under 30 MPG in CS Mode

 


[ad#post_ad]Thanks to the watchful eye of astute GM-Volt reader Don O, a new information-filled Volt test drive video has been unearthed.  The 8 minute segment appears on Aol Autos Tranlogic and includes in it some never before disclosed information.

The vehicle was test driven by an enthusiastic reporter named Bradley who seemed very psyched about the car.  He got to take it around GMs Milford proving grounds and put it through some rigorous paces.  It appears to be a near if not 100% calibration build, and GM let him check things we have never seen before.  One was to let him time the 0 to 60 which came out at a respectable 8.53 seconds in Sports mode.

We also find out that the Mountain Mode keeps the battery state of charge at 45% instead of the 30% level when the generator goes on normally.  GM had not previously disclosed that buffer level.

He was also allowed to drive the car through the transition into generator mode and beyond.  At time 5:50 in the video he was shown a real data display on the car illustrating how that Volt performed from when it was first charged that day.  Interesting figures to note was that it managed 43.7 miles before the generator came on, breaking the 40 mile goal range.  The car then traveled an additional 16.1 miles using .59 gallons of gas for an average real-world MPG of 27.3 MPG.

Of course it isn’t fair to say that this will be the official average MPG in charge sustaining mode, but one could assume weather conditions were fairly good and driving fairly tame considering the car did get more than 40 miles of EV range.

We don’t expect GM to ever officially release charge sustaining MPG, but will report the ca’rs overall fuel economy including the 40 miles of EV range.  For the drive in this test video, for example, the Volt got a combined 100 MPG over those 59.7 miles of driving.

The reporter appeared to come away quite happy about the Volt and having apparently also driven the Nissan LEAF found the Volt superior in interior room, handling and driving performance.  The Volt “borders on sporty and is fun,” he said.

See video below:


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This entry was posted on Tuesday, August 24th, 2010 at 12:37 am and is filed under Test drive, Video. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 462


  1. 1
    Dave K.

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:54 am)

    The car used in the video in not the production Volt. On the 0-60 time there was no tire chirp. And there is a noticable lag off the line. The production Volt is reported to chirp the tires. And as GM engineering has mentioned, “The lag you feel now will be gone in the production car”. The listed distance/fuel numbers were under an abusive driving style with full throttle acceleration and very hard braking. Mountain mode was also used. Which means for a short time the battery and the gasoline tank were being drained at the same time. With very little regen being reclaimed and no consideration of the efficiency gauge. Actual real world numbers will be more positive in the production car. An entertaining video none the less.

    =D-Volt


  2. 2
    Cab Driver

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:57 am)

    I saw that video earlier today and did the same CS mpg calculation. I doubt that the 27.3 mpg is typical since that would imply a tank size of 11 gallons to get the 300 mile range on gas. Andrew Farrah said a long time ago that the tank would be between 6 and 10 gallons. GM has also stated that the Volt’s CS mpg would best any conventionally powered car in its class. I don’t think 27.3 mpg would meet that committment.


  3. 3
    xiaowei1

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:01 am)

    I also thought the readouts were not finalised and any numbers shown were not accurate.


  4. 4
    Richard L.

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:03 am)

    I’m still willing to bet if the EPA tested the vehicle under the current duty cycle tests for normal vehicles using only Charge Sustain mode, the Volt would probably achieve somewhere between 34-36 MPG. I do not believe it will be realistic to expect much more.

    Although I was very enthusiastic about purchasing a 1st gen volt, the facts and figures that coming out has made me much less enthused, relegating it to either a lease or purchase a Prius instead (I do a fair amount of long range driving).


  5. 5
    DonC

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:22 am)

    It was definitely a fun review. The Volt is fun to drive and, while, it’s not a sports car, it’s bordering on sporty. Consistent with its design. Most important …. it’s an EV!

    As for specifics like MPG in CS Mode, too many unknown variables. Driving at 80 MPH, using Mountain Mode to charge the battery, seeing how fast you can get to 60 MPH, who knows how many takes, and all manner of other stuff can just skew things quite a bit. (We don’t even know what they were doing before the test drive). Until the actual numbers are released I’ll go with the Bob Lutz slip and sign on for 40-50 MPG, probably on the lower end.


  6. 6
    impulse power

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:31 am)

    Even if mpg is in the mid 30′s in CS mode that’s horrible for this car they spent such long time on developing, like the other comment implied Prius beats it overall even if it cant do 40 miles in EV mode alone, the Honda insight also becomes a great alternative at less than half the price. This vehicle could have been made at 50 mpg in CS mode but appears that wont be the case at all. Its amazing on the estimated mpg, first it was 230, now probably 100, and wont surprise me if its even less. Still hope I will be surprised when the real numbers come out for combined values.


  7. 7
    ziv

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:40 am)

    Interesting video, the 0-60 time seems good. I imagine the onscreen readout was off, since the car didn’t start moving til after the count was well into 1 second. But I am starting to really worry that GM has over-engined the Volt to fight off the Pikes Peak problem. The car was getting flogged in the video, but 27 mpg? Too many variables to make a guess but it is looking more and more like the Volt will get a CS figure starting with a 3, probably 38 or so, but people won’t realize that the Volt only uses its CS mode once a week or so. I thought it would get high 40′s at 65 mph and maybe break 50 mpg in town, but now I am not so sure. For $41,000, I want 50 mpg in CS mode.


  8. 8
    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:49 am)

    The driving tests during EV were different than CS, so I would not try to infer much of anything relying on one or the other.

    Every reasonable route of inquiry points to CS mpg in the 30′s. At this point my only question is why GM (presumably) thought they could do so much better. Or was 50 mpg just a marketing decision based on Prius ?

    If so, I feel for the poor engineers.


  9. 9
    EricLG

     

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:55 am)

    For $41,000, I want 50 mpg in CS mode.  

    Why, if it is only used once a week like you say ?

    50 mpg is a *really* hard target, and Toyota has locked up their design with a monster patent portfolio. Honda has exceptional engineering, and they have yet to come close.


  10. 10
    ziv

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:13 am)

    I take your point, Eric. But the Volt doesn’t make sense financially, even if gas goes above $4 a gallon, a Cruze is cheaper and much less complicated, not to mention a Prius. GM needs to kick the Prius to the curb or the detractors will drown out the positive views of the Volt. You don’t beat the champ on points, you have to knock him out to take his belt. I am not sure that a Volt that gets 35 mpg will knock the Prius out. I really, really want an American car to lead the movement to BEV/EREV. We need to be able to buy a car that doesn’t rely on foreign oil. Right now, the dweeby Leaf looks like it has a more fervent group of supporters than the Volt. I have been selling this car to my friends for more than 2 years, and the more I learn, the harder it is to sell it.

    EricLG:
    Why, if it is only used once a week like you say ?  


  11. 11
    emod79

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:24 am)

    I’d knock a good 1.2 seconds off that time. There was a delay from when the clock started and when he stomped the pedal. Roughly 7.3s 0-60 time is very respectable. Tossing the car around Milford, I would expect CS mileage to be not so spectacular.


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    mmcc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:09 am)

    One of the better reviews I have seen. I’m not too concerned with the MPG in CS mode. The Volt was designed to go 40 miles on battery, that was the focal point. It’s not a Prius, Insight, etc


  13. 13
    Dave K.

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:15 am)

    emod79: I’d knock a good 1.2 seconds off that time.

    Use a stop watch and see what you get on the 0-60. It’s closer to 9 seconds than it is to 7.

    http://www.online-stopwatch.com/

    Did you notice in the later shots of the Volt that the driver side front air dam is damaged? GM may need to screen demo drivers a little more carefully. How about a demo drive video from L.A. to Ventura along the PCH? Most cars cruise along at about 50 mph. Right in the sweet spot.

    =D-Volt


  14. 14
    StevePA

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:03 am)

    The CS mode fuel efficiency numbers are likely one of the reasons behind GM’s research into alternatives to the current I4 ICE generator. In the short run may have been the best available option to keep costs down, but there are likely more fuel efficient alternatives for later generations of Volt.

    OT for some info on the source of at least some of the current Administration’s interest in electric vehicles (all variants) – essentially driven by one man’s concern with dependence of foreign oil:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/CAPITAL-CULTURE-Obamas-apf-3097553601.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=2&asset=&ccode=


  15. 15
    Eco_Turbo

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:03 am)

    Where are you people coming from? That’s the most exciting video of the Volt I’ve seen yet. I’m sure it will be like every other car ever made, MPG will depend on how you operate your right foot. If all you want is a good 0-60 time, + economy, buy a Saab 9.., err Cruze.


  16. 16
    Texas

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:37 am)

    Now this sounds more like it. It’s exactly what I have been predicting for a long time, much to the chagrin of the many who gave me negative points and comments.

    What do you all expect? It’s a serial hybrid with no mechanical help. If you want some linkage, you will add to the complexity. That is why I suggested a hybrid-hybrid where you just have the high gear linkage with an electric clutch. That way on the highway you can engage the simple link and go straight ICE – linkage – wheels.

    Once again, I still feel the current system is excellent and will have many positives. It is not designed for heavy highway use. If you need that, get a diesel (a hybrid diesel would be even better).

    So, enjoy the Volt and it’s ability to achieve triple digit MPG numbers for a large percentage of divers. It’s going to kick the living crap out of any city car and will give you the option to drive across the U.S. if you need to. What else are you all looking for? The Volt rocks!


  17. 17
    KenEE

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:51 am)

    Guys… the ICE charges the battery. It doesn’t propel the wheels.

    So it used .59 gallons while the car happened to go 16.1 miles. The ICE would have used the same .59 gallons regardless of how far the car travelled.

    The energy stored in the battery from burning this .59 gallons may be enough to propel the car an additional 9 miles. Guess what? You’re at 50 MPG in CS mode!

    Point is, you *have* to take the average over a long time period.

    You can never know the true MPG unless you can turn the ICE OFF and then deplete the charge it produced while burning gas.

    sheesh! :)


  18. 18
    KenEE

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:12 am)

    Here is the question you want to answer:

    We know that 8kW-hr’s of battery moves the car 40 miles.

    Question is how much gas does it take for the ICE to charge the battery the equivalent of 8kW-hrs?

    If it takes 1 gallon then the Volt gets 40 MPG in CS mode. If it takes less than a gallon then it gets >40MPG. If it takes more than a gallon then it gets <40MPG.

    Really we want to know kW-hrs per gallon.


  19. 19
    Dave K.

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:19 am)

    KenEE: The energy stored in the battery from burning this .59 gallons may be enough to propel the car an additional 9 miles.

    The lost miles are being stored in the battery via mountain mode. We need to know the normal buffer storage and subtract from 45% (mountain storage). If it’s 15% less, then the lost miles total about 6.

    So 22.1 miles on .59 gallons = 37.4 mpg

    42 mpg CS under normal driving conditions looks like a good number. The tested car being less efficient than the production car. And the demo driver dismissing the efficiency gauge and braking regen during the bashing joy ride.

    What is the CS mpg on the 2011 Volt? Depends on how you drive it.

    =D-Volt


  20. 20
    Rooster

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:36 am)

    Lyle,

    Great post. However after watching the video, I disagree with your statement that the Volt was being driven “fairly tame”. The reporter was on the proving grounds, and driving aggressively. He was going 80 MPH at one point, and it sounded like he did the 0-60 run in CS mode. Getting nearly 30 MPH in a vehicle that is being driven aggressively (sharp turns, slamming on the brakes to test the traction control, flooring it, high speed laps, etc.) is great. I still think the highway mileage will be around 42-43 MPG.


  21. 21
    Roy H

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:55 am)

    “Your mileage may vary” is apt for this video. Flogging a car to find limits of performance is not typical driving.

    Re: Yesterday’s topic

    KenEE: Here’s my vote!http://www.freepistonpower.com/Default.aspxFree Piston Power:•Power Density: 1kW/kg; 2 kW/litre
    •Fuelled by Gasoline, Diesel (Bio, JP8), LPG, Ethanol, Hydrogen
    •Mechanical simplicity (software ‘replaces’ conventional con-rods, cam and crankshaft)
    •Readily scalable from 25 to 500kW output power
    •Efficiency 50%Electricity generation is inherent in its mechanical design.Imagine the Volts 55kW generator in a small 125 lb. package!Simply Awesome….

    Just wanted to add my vote for this system, looks like a winner.

    There are some other interesting designs out there, like this Radial Wave Rotor design:
    http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/NMReferences/PiechnaAkbariIancuMuellerIMECE2004-59022.pdf

    Also found this: http://www.pdtdesigns.com/pdtengines.html


  22. 22
    Jim in PA

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:59 am)

    It is virtually impossible to believe that a hybrid with regenerative breaking and a battery to provide acceleration “buffer” would ever get under 30 mpg under normal driving conditions. These are aggressive test track conditions and in no way reflect reality. I wonder how poorly someone could get a Prius to perform (mpg) with highly aggressive driving? That would be an interesting experiment.

    Enter the trolls…..


  23. 23
    koz

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:59 am)

    CD to below 45%…MM charge back to 45%…CD below 45%

    Having the generator charge back up to 45% is the ONLY way to explain 43.7 miles AER and 27.3mpg in CS mode, unless they are using significantly more than 8kwh for CD or GM intentionally tanked the efficiency of the ICE or the driving conditions were drastically different for the different modes. Do the numbers from energy content of fuel to these results and this is apparent.


  24. 24
    koz

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:04 am)

    EricLG: Every reasonable route of inquiry points to CS mpg in the 30’s.

    Really? Show one analysis with “realistic” numbers that agrees with 40 miles AER from 8 kwh of energy and 30′s for CS mode at 65mph level ground.


  25. 25
    Loboc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:04 am)

    There is a huge difference between what any car’s mpg will be at any point when thrashing it vs driving the EPA cycle.

    For any car, to get a good average mpg, you need to use at least three tanks of gas. This will smooth out any variations in pump click-off. Are you getting 6.3 gallons or 6.5 gallons? It makes a huge difference when calculating 100+ mpgs.

    The whole point of the Volt is the rest of the video. Fun, handling, fun, economical, fun, and finally fun! Plus, it’s not butt-ugly.


  26. 26
    koz

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:09 am)

    koz: CD to below 45%…MM charge back to 45%…CD below 45%Having the generator charge back up to 45% is the ONLY way to explain 43.7 miles AER and 27.3mpg in CS mode, unless they are using significantly more than 8kwh for CD or GM intentionally tanked the efficiency of the ICE or the driving conditions were drastically different for the different modes. Do the numbers from energy content of fuel to these results and this is apparent.  (Quote)

    I’m guessing, GM needs to do some fancy computing to correctly calculate CS mode mileage and CD mileage when MM is used. Realistically, it’s how you do at the end of the year that really matters.


  27. 27
    Jim I

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:10 am)

    I am actually more excited than before!

    If you can take a “car guy” and have him be this happy about the Volt and EREV design, then it will more than meet MY needs!!!!

    I have driven the Volt. I am convinced that GM has done this right. As soon as I can go to my local dealer and order one, it will happen.

    As far as all this talk about the CS mileage, here is my take on it:

    Personally, the CS mileage is way down on my list. Styling, comfort, initial battery range, performance, and price come before the CS mileage. In fact, I can not ever say that I did not buy a car, because of the MPG rating it had. If I liked the car, I bought it, and lived with the mileage it provided.

    And if your needs are to drive several hundred miles per week or you have a large family, or need to tow a boat then the Volt is maybe not the car you should be considering. It was not designed to be the perfect car for every single driver. If it meets your needs and desires, buy it! If not, don’t. But that does not make the car a failure, it just means that you and this particular model are not a good fit.

    IMHO, I am still saying – Great Work GM Volt Team!!!!

    :-)


  28. 28
    Chris

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:10 am)

    Hi–

    I’m a regular reader, and first-time poster. (Minimal flames please.) This video got my juices flowing more than any I’ve seen so far–and already I was pretty juiced. Here’s why:

    While I love the idea of being efficient and conscientious, I also want to have a fun car and one that my kids might find “cool.” (Yes, ego matters.) We saw a Karma in person, which clearly is an uber-cool car (maybe too much so). But it’s expensive and perhaps not so practical.

    The Volt seems incredibly practical, but maybe a serious step down from my current car (an amazing ’95 540 Sport, again, no flames please). I’ve been worried about the Volt’s fun-factor and cool-factor.

    Well, my worries are over. My kids (aged 12 to 24) want to know if they can drive it, and when it will arrive. (I’m #1 at my dealer, MSRP). When they get psyched, I get psyched.

    Frankly speaking, the last digit of MPG is not as important to me as how happy I will be as an early adopter of a undeniably break-through car.

    Now I am certain–as the first kids on the block with a Volt, we will be thrilled.

    You all are great. I love reading your posts!

    Chris


  29. 29
    joe

     

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:11 am)

    Richard L.: I’m still willing to bet if the EPA tested the vehicle under the current duty cycle tests for normal vehicles using only Charge Sustain mode, the Volt would probably achieve somewhere between 34-36 MPG. I do not believe it will be realistic to expect much more.Although I was very enthusiastic about purchasing a 1st gen volt, the facts and figures that coming out has made me much less enthused, relegating it to either a lease or purchase a Prius instead (I do a fair amount of long range driving).  

    For the same reasons I will probably not buy the Volt. Most of my driving are mostly long trips. But, it’s really too soon to make a judgment, because I’ve learned that the media is awfully negative towards GM and I believe this report is distorted.

    Maybe GM will now divulge the real mileage if this story is way off base.


  30. 30
    Don O

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:13 am)

    Lyle, thankyou for the acknowlegement. I feel so lucky to have my name in lights on my favorite website.
    I do believe there are way too many unknowns to definatively determine the CS MPG from the video. I’m sure I could drive a Prius for 16.1 miles in a manner in that I would burn enough fuel to get a 5 mpg result. Rose colored glasses aside I think the 27 mpg result is positive, because of the way the car looks to have driven. He looks like the kind of guy that would drive the cr@p out of the car when given the chance as I would have.
    I also suspect we will see AER results in the 50 mile plus range with the evidence this Volt got 43 miles of AeR. With hypermilers returning close to 60. Just my opinion of course.


  31. 31
    neutron

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:16 am)

    KenEE: Here is the question you want to answer:We know that 8kW-hr’s of battery moves the car 40 miles.Question is how much gas does it take for the ICE to charge the battery the equivalent of 8kW-hrs?If it takes 1 gallon then the Volt gets 40 MPG in CS mode.If it takes less than a gallon then it gets >40MPG.If it takes more than a gallon then it gets <40MPG.Really we want to know kW-hrs per gallon.  

    Good Point. Maybe the better way to look at the measurement.


  32. 32
    Flaninacupboard

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:20 am)

    For those of us with a Prius it’s not overly suprising that he got poor economy in the first couple of miles. When the engine is warming up it’s not providing any power back to the system, and then until it’s totally up to temp (85c or whatever) it will still give low economy. 0.05 to 0.1 of his 0.59 gallons was probably warmup juice.

    As mentioned (not watched the video yet) if mountain mode was engaged after hitting CS and the buffer is 45% instead of 30% the car would also be trying to pump 2.4kwh back into the battery during that time. it also travelled 16 miles, which (at 200wh per mile) is another 3.2kwh of power. so a total of 5.6kwh came out of 0.49-0.54 gallons of gas. that’s between 28.3% and 31.2% efficiency. that’s between 51 and 57mpg if true. pretty good, though we’d need to confirm the mountain mode buffer had got all the way up to 45%….


  33. 33
    Baltimore17

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:21 am)

    impulse power: Even if mpg is in the mid 30’s in CS mode that’s horrible for this car they spent such long time on developing, like the other comment implied Prius beats it overall even if it cant do 40 miles in EV mode alone, the Honda insight also becomes a great alternative at less than half the price.This vehicle could have been made at 50 mpg in CS mode but appears that wont be the case at all.Its amazing on the estimated mpg, first it was 230, now probably 100, and wont surprise me if its even less.Still hope I will be surprised when the real numbers come out for combined values.  

    See, this is the kind of simplistic, faulty analysis that completely misses the methodology for computing average MPG — given a CS MPG rating plus max use of the battery. This poster says nothing about the distance he typically plans to drive after each charge, but uses a CS MPG number to jump to the unsupported conclusion that a Prius would be better for him.

    “Oh, no, you don’t want to buy a Volt. It only gets 27.3 MPG. Buy a Prius. It gets 51 MPG.” A conversation between two clueless people, one of whom drives 50 miles per day and would get 136 MPG with the Volt, the other who drives 40 miles per day and would use no gasoline at all.


  34. 34
    The grump

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:22 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:24 am)

    joe:
    For the same reasons I will probably not buy the Volt. Most of my driving are mostly long trips.But, it’s really too soon to make a judgment, because I’ve learned that the media is awfully negative towards GM and I believe this report is distorted.Maybe GM will now divulge the real mileage if this story is way off base.  

    The longer GM – Chevy is silent on the CS-Mode MPG the more speculative the comments about it become. So why is Chevy not announcing the number???? We can only “speculate” :+}}}}


  36. 36
    herm

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:25 am)

    Jim in PA:#22

    It is virtually impossible to believe that a hybrid with regenerative breaking and a battery to provide acceleration “buffer” would ever get under 30 mpg under normal driving conditions. These are aggressive test track conditions and in no way reflect reality. I wonder how poorly someone could get a Prius to perform (mpg) with highly aggressive driving?

    That british TV show got a Prius to do under 20mpg, at a race track of course..


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    crew

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:28 am)

    This guy taking out the Volt is no dummy. No doubt whatsoever that at one time he drove the car for fuel economy is CS mode and asked all of the questions about it.
    Edited out or topic not allowed…yet.

    His excitement speaks volumes for the car.

    I get 38 mpg on my daily commute and the worst is 26 when I’m in a rush to get anyplace else. I don’t know what I’d get on a test track and driving like an idiot having a blast behind the wheel.

    Patience.

    From all of the info we’ve received from all of the Volt people that have not led us astray CS mode will impress us. Especially with a 3,500 lb compact car.

    And that EV range, NOT an EPA figure!!!!!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:30 am)

    Chris: I’m a regular reader, and first-time poster. (Minimal flames please.) This video got my juices flowing more than any I’ve seen so far–and already I was pretty juiced…. You all are great. I love reading your posts!

    Everybody go up to that incredibly positive comment #28 and rec that baby up!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:32 am)

    ziv: I take your point, Eric. But the Volt doesn’t make sense financially, even if gas goes above $4 a gallon, a Cruze is cheaper and much less complicated, not to mention a Prius. GM needs to kick the Prius to the curb or the detractors will drown out the positive views of the Volt. You don’t beat the champ on points, you have to knock him out to take his belt. I am not sure that a Volt that gets 35 mpg will knock the Prius out. I really, really want an American car to lead the movement to BEV/EREV. We need to be able to buy a car that doesn’t rely on foreign oil. Right now, the dweeby Leaf looks like it has a more fervent group of supporters than the Volt. I have been selling this car to my friends for more than 2 years, and the more I learn, the harder it is to sell it.
      

    If you’re driving under 40 miles between charges, you’re using no gasoline at all. How hard is that to sell to your friends?

    If you’re driving 80 miles between charges, you’re getting double the CS rating. Take your 35 MPG, double it to 70 MPG. How does that not “knock the Prius out”?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:33 am)

    The grump: If the Volt gets 27 CS, then GM better start “managing consumer expectations” quick.  

    Well they have, with Mr Posawatz talking (yesterday) about improving the ICE. On the other hand, it’s hard to conclude anything about CS mpg from today’s video — too many uncertainties, driving style, small distances, only a small amount of fuel use— these can easily result in big errors in the mpg calculation. We just don’t know yet.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:36 am)

    EricLG: Why, if it is only used once a week like you say ?50 mpg is a *really* hard target, and Toyota has locked up their design with a monster patent portfolio. Honda has exceptional engineering, and they have yet to come close.  (Quote)

    Toyota will license HSD. Nissan uses it.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:37 am)

    Having driven a pre production volt i can tell you that the software is not complete (at least on the one i drove). I was told at the time to ignore the readout. Even putting the car into low gave me a strange result on the display.

    I still believe that we will see a higher CS number.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:37 am)

    I’m stlill sticking with my mid 30′s guess of over a year ago. The Cruse gets 40 mpg I don’t see the Volt doing any better than that. You have the same motor and add the battery and genset/drive motor on the Volt. I think you are going to have a net loss on the Volt. If CS was even close to 50mpg don’t you think GM would have said so by now. Any car that can get 50mpg is big news. The Volt not being a ugly sub sub compact and could get 50mpg in CS don’t you think GM marketing wouild have made a really big deal about this by now???


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    KenEE: Guys… the ICE charges the battery. It doesn’t propel the wheels.So it used .59 gallons while the car happened to go 16.1 miles. The ICE would have used the same .59 gallons regardless of how far the car travelled.The energy stored in the battery from burning this .59 gallons may be enough to propel the car an additional 9 miles. Guess what? You’re at 50 MPG in CS mode!Point is, you *have* to take the average over a long time period.You can never know the true MPG unless you can turn the ICE OFF and then deplete the charge it produced while burning gas.sheesh!   (Quote)

    I wish this were true however the ICE has been designed specifically not to charge the battery, that defeats the purpose of the plug. The Ice only maintains the minimum level of charge (30% or 45% in Mountain Mode).

    That being said I truly doubt that this 1.4 litre 75hp engine only manages 27 MPG in the real world something does not quite add up with that number. As I have said before I am done speculating on the CS MPG until an official number is released, and frankly i dont care – I will only use it a few times per year.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:41 am)

    joe:
    Maybe GM will now divulge the real mileage if this story is way off base.  

    And that would be the one good thing to come out of all the obsession with CS mode MPG in this video.

    As I said when this video came out last night, and agreeing with a few posters above, this video is exciting! There’s a LOT to be seen if you look and listen closely. I watched once with the sound off so I could scrutinize the visuals (e.g. glimpses of console screens) and then again with the sound up.

    I timed the 0-60 at 10.0 secs, but that was from a web video with a crappy cell phone stopwatch. I expect it’ll really be under that.

    Can’t wait!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:42 am)

    Lyle,

    Can you ask your GM sources if the car’s programming is allowing more than 8 kwh’s drain off the battery in CD mode in order to reach a targeted 40 miles AER?

    Also, in Mountain mode do they allow a significantly deeper DoD –i.e. maybe down to only 3 or 4 kwh’s left remaining?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:51 am)

    My thoughts…
    1. 43.1 mile AER! YEAH!!! If drivers routinely see over 40 miles AER in real world driving, then we have a lot to cheer about IMO.
    2. Great video. Showed how fun driving the Volt can be.
    3. 27.3 mpg in CS mode…Hoping for something higher but not a deal breaker either way really. It’s all about the electric.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:52 am)

    KenEE:

    Like I’ve said before and I will say again, to make such a setup like the Volt get maximum efficiency, the ICE has to work at full load just about every time it’s runs. A regular car only needs about 35HP to keep it going at 60MPH and that is what makes them so inefficient. The engine is drawing gasoline for the balance of the unneeded HP. On the other hand the Volt shines in this area. The Volt ICE can use all those HP by propelling it and at the same time charge the battery). When the engine cycles off, then it can go back in the electric mode (w/o having to get plug-in.. What I’m saying is the ICE could cycle on and off on a long trip.

    I’ve always believe that this is the way the Volt will operate and time will tell. It just doesn’t make sense not to put power back in the battery when the ICE is running, especially if the Volt is coasting.

    So if I’m correct, this would invalidate these calculations


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:01 am)

    Does the ICE charge the battery? Let me answer that. Yes it does – to a degree. The ICE does not “intentionally” charge the battery in order to restore it to full charge but when the ICE is running and you suddenly take your foot off the “gas” pedal, do you think the ICE immediately shuts off? Of course not it is still spinning the generator so there will be some electron flow that needs to go somewhere and that somewhere is the battery. Same goes for when you are in CS mode and brake to a stop. The regen current has to go somewhere which is again into the battery. But where did that kinetic energy come from? From the ICE of course so once again it is charging the battery. And then there is the Mountain mode which if turned on with a completely (30%) depleted battery would have the engine recharge the car up to some level (45%?) and if you didn’t actually use it and turned it back off the battery would have 15% or so of energy that it received from the ICE.

    All this leads to the question… How does the Volt measure the mileage from the battery vs the ICE? When the battery finds itself with a bit of charge again and helps move the car what happens? Does this inadvertent battery charging add to the battery mileage – thus “stealing” mileage from the ICE CS mode? Or does the software keep track of it and add it back to the ICE’s scorecard?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:03 am)

    Joe and Nick,

    Yes the ICE cycles ON and OFF and does not stay on until the battery is fully charged, but while it is on it is generating electricity at some rate while burning some amount of gas.

    For every 8 kWh’s of charge (doesn’t really matter how many ON/OFF cycles it took to generate) we can say the Volt can go 40 miles.

    So the question is how much gas does it require to generate that much charge?

    That would give you the magic CS Mode MPG we all want to know.

    And for everyone who wonders if the ICE actually *charges* the battery? Well the ‘C’ in CS Mode stands for “Charge”. Yes the ICE Charges the battery….


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:04 am)

    Brian: I’m stlill sticking with my mid 30’s guess of over a year ago.The Cruse gets 40 mpg I don’t see the Volt doing any better than that.You have the same motor and add the battery and genset/drive motor on the Volt.I think you are going to have a net loss on the Volt.If CS was even close to 50mpg don’t you think GM would have said so by now.Any car that can get 50mpg is big news.The Volt not being a ugly sub sub compact and could get 50mpg in CS don’t you think GM marketing wouild have made a really big deal about this by now???  

    It’s better to be late with the marketing info than to tip your hand to the competition. If GM waits long enough to release certain specs on the Volt, then the competition won’t have time to tweak (improve) their design for the their next gen vehicles. I’m surprised GM has been as open as they are.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:04 am)

    This is great stuff. Very exciting to see. Remember the 0-60 speed will go up noticeably with only one driver versus two. If you try to show off the Volt’s acceleration with a car full of people you may be disappointed.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:10 am)

    carcus3: Lyle,Can you ask your GM sources if the car’s programming is allowingmore than 8 kwh’s drain off the battery in CD mode in order to reach a targeted 40 miles AER?Also, in Mountain mode do they allow a significantly deeper DoD –i.e. maybe down to only 3 or 4 kwh’s left remaining?  

    I think GM has made it pretty clear that they’re not dipping into that 30% reserve and if they do it’s certainly not going to be down to 4% SOC. No way they would be able to give the battery the warranty that they are offering if they allowed that depth of discharge.

    The purpose of MM is to build a reserve (45% SOC) before you need it, so that if the vehicle does need more power, it comes from that 30% SOC to 45% SOC range, not from the <30% SOC regime.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:10 am)

    Three types of people will be happy with the Volt. Hyper milers, lead-footers, and people who don’t know what they are. Hyper milers and lead-footers will be happy with the Volt. People who don’t know will buy it because everybody else is. What other car can say that?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:16 am)

    The “disconnect” between what GM engineers/media folks say about the Volt, and important realities concerning it continues. The Volt is a great car. However, it’s $41K MSRP, limited production, and the fact that dealers are already talking about the premium they’ll charge over MSRP will dampen the enthusiasm of many would-be Volt purchasers.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:25 am)

    It sounds like the jury is still out on what the ‘official’ numbers will be. If the AER is 5% higher and CS MPG is 5% lower, it still looks to me that our house still reduces gasoline consumption by 90% per year. That works for me.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:27 am)

    KenEE: Joe and Nick,Yes the ICE cycles ON and OFF and does not stay on until the battery is fully charged, but while it is on it is generating electricity at some rate while burning some amount of gas.For every 8 kWh’s of charge (doesn’t really matter how many ON/OFF cycles it took to generate) we can say the Volt can go 40 miles.So the question is how much gas does it require to generate that much charge?That would give you the magic CS Mode MPG we all want to know.And for everyone who wonders if the ICE actually *charges* the battery?Well the ‘C’ in CS Mode stands for “Charge”.Yes the ICE Charges the battery….  

    1) Consider that 1 gallon of gasoline contains 36.6 kWh of energy
    2) The ICE is 25% efficient in converting the chemical energy to mechanical
    3) The generator (and supporting electronics) are 85% efficient in converting mechanical to electrical
    4) It takes 8 kWh to go 40 miles

    So: we get 38.9 mpg equivalent.

    This is really close to my calculations that use aero drag and rolling resistance losses and the required power to overcome those losses at speeds around 70 mph.

    You can tweak the efficiencies to your liking, but these are values that I typically use when doing back of the napkin calculations.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:29 am)

    No more credible than any other guess. If GM engineers are intent a keeping the gas consumption secret, I’m sure it’s a simple matter to make the display a number that isn’t exactly readable without applying a correction factor or something. We’ll know for certain when it’s officially announced or when owners start reporting their experience.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:29 am)

    Had to skip reading the comments as I’m off to work, but I’ll wait to actually SEE the real world performance re CS mode mpg. Compared to the time elapsed so far in development, it’s right around the corner. Good times!

    Be good to each other,
    Tagamet


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:34 am)

    Good video… but man all I could think about the whole time was “i’m watching a 8 min advertisement!” I would be hard pressed to call that unbiased reporting. Still great to see my fav car in such a fun video, just cant wait to see it reviewed properly!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:39 am)

    KenEE: Joe and Nick,Yes the ICE cycles ON and OFF and does not stay on until the battery is fully charged, but while it is on it is generating electricity at some rate while burning some amount of gas.For every 8 kWh’s of charge (doesn’t really matter how many ON/OFF cycles it took to generate) we can say the Volt can go 40 miles.So the question is how much gas does it require to generate that much charge?That would give you the magic CS Mode MPG we all want to know.And for everyone who wonders if the ICE actually *charges* the battery?Well the ‘C’ in CS Mode stands for “Charge”.Yes the ICE Charges the battery….  

    We all know that a engine/generator set is not the most economical way to produce electricity. I did not imply that the ICE will run solely to charge the battery. What I’m saying is when the ICE starts to propel the Volt (this could be for many different reasons), it will put the excess power if any to the battery. That way the ICE will work in it’s most economical manner….


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:42 am)

    I don’t understand how GM wants to get the first 40 miles for free in a fuel effiency metric. Although electricty may be domestic and relatively inexpensive, it certainly does cause global warming emissions and consume energy resources to generate.

    Vehicles need to be efficient, not just electric. I certainly hope that the Volt will do much better than 30 mpg in CS mode.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:44 am)

    Texas: Now this sounds more like it. It’s exactly what I have been predicting for a long time, much to the chagrin of the many who gave me negative points and comments.

    What do you all expect? It’s a serial hybrid with no mechanical help.

    This story is not over. 27 mpg while flogging the car mercilessly on a test track does not come close to normal driving conditions. Remember the Top Gear test track treatment of the Tesla Roadster? I wonder what kind of range the LEAF would achieve under similar conditions (and it doesn’t even have a “Mountain Mode” to demo)?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:44 am)

    What is this obsession with CS mileage? The Volt is going to be competitive with other cars in it’s size range and the CS milage should not be a deal breaker. For me it will be replacing an 18 MPG Merc. SLK 360 AMG. and I will be happy. My normal commute is 18 miles RT and buy gas every two weeks So I will rarely need CS mode but will be glad it is there. I will be using CS mode for most of my trip of 1136 miles from the dealer in VA to Miami. I will report on MPG in the real world hopefully in Nov. or Dec. I am sure it will get better mileage than my wifes’ 21MPG Luxus 400H hybrid.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:44 am)

    Just watched the video again (I couldn’t help it) and did anyone else notice that the stop watch STARTS one second BEFORE the car in the in the 0-60 test?! Was that poor editing or did they just under rate the VOLT??? I’m hoping that they just gave us 1-1/4 seconds to shave off the final 0-60 ;)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:46 am)

    JeremyK Said:

    Consider that 1 gallon of gasoline contains 36.6 kWh of energy.

    Is that a warm expanded gallon or a cold shrunk gallon?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:47 am)

    On the gm site they state that 40 miles is based on the epa city driving cycle this video information is not based on any known driving, possibly if someone knows the reporter they could e-mail him and ask what type of driving he was doing at the end of his evaluation. This still will not tell us a lot but will be more useful than this information is.
    Tom


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:51 am)

    mark wagner: I don’t understand how GM wants to get the first 40 miles for free in a fuel effiency metric. Although electricty may be domestic and relatively inexpensive, it certainly does cause global warming emissions and consume energy resources to generate.

    Electric propulsion is inherently more efficient than internal combustion. The emissions of a power plant are much easier to deal with at one exhaust stack, vs. thousands or millions of tailpipes. That is, of course, if the power plant has an exhaust stack. There are many, many ways to generate electricity; but until now petroleum has been the sole source of motive propulsion for cars and trucks (biofuels are also in a beginning phase). If you want petroleum in the quantities our society needs, you have to deal with the enemies of that society (helping to support them economically). There is more going on here than emissions.

    mark wagner: Vehicles need to be efficient, not just electric. I certainly hope that the Volt will do much better than 30 mpg in CS mode.

    Agreed.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (8:52 am)

    I feel certain the Volt will do better than 30mpg in CS mode. Geez, I have a 2006 Corvette coupe that I drove 1100 miles in May and averaged 29.7 mpg. Thats a 400hp V8. I do believe I could beat the 7-8 seconds for 0-60 :-) In all honesty, I cannot beat the first 40 miles and no gas…


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    KenEE: Joe and Nick,Yes the ICE cycles ON and OFF and does not stay on until the battery is fully charged, but while it is on it is generating electricity at some rate while burning some amount of gas.For every 8 kWh’s of charge (doesn’t really matter how many ON/OFF cycles it took to generate) we can say the Volt can go 40 miles.So the question is how much gas does it require to generate that much charge?That would give you the magic CS Mode MPG we all want to know.And for everyone who wonders if the ICE actually *charges* the battery? Well the ‘C’ in CS Mode stands for “Charge”. Yes the ICE Charges the battery….  (Quote)

    And the “S” in CS stands for sustaining. So if you have a batter at 30% and you want to keep it at 30% then you would be “sustaining” the charge… The only instance i can see where the battery would be charged by the engine/generator would be if the car had dipped below the 30% or the Mountain Mode was selected after the car had already hit the 30% threshhold. There will not be wasted energy, thats the point of the car. I dont see why the engine would not turn off when the car is coasting or at a stoplight, this is what most hybrids do today. (unless of course again the car dipped below the 30% threshhold).


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:03 am)

    CorvetteGuy: It sounds like the jury is still out on what the ‘official’ numbers will be. If the AER is 5% higher and CS MPG is 5% lower, it still looks to me that our house still reduces gasoline consumption by 90% per year. That works for me.  (Quote)

    Coult not have said it better myself!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:06 am)

    Jim I: I have driven the Volt. I am convinced that GM has done this right. As soon as I can go to my local dealer and order one, it will happen.

    Go to your Chevy Dealer and place your order today. Allocations so far have been estimates. They get updated on Sept 20th. Your dealer’s allocation could be increased based on number of orders to date. I’m hoping the first year production totals get increased overall because of early high demand.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:07 am)

    JMO: I suspect that CS MPG can literally be all over the map. The Volt’s “fun factor” will make it just a little bit difficult to keep enough restraint to do the HighMiler thing. But I think it will be fully capable of getting very high mpg. And if you are doing city driving it should be able to do quite well with regenerative braking, unless you are seriously sowing wild oats. I stand by my estimate of 50 mpg in CS mode, but I should probably add +/- 25 mgp depending on…


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:10 am)

    CorvetteGuy: I’m hoping the first year production totals get increased overall because of early high demand.

    I heard evidence of this over the past weekend. The Volt person at the Woodward Dream Cruise said that they would like to produce 60,000 in the first two years. So if 2012 model year is 45,000 then that means that they are thinking of upping 2011 model year to 15,000 (a reasonable sounding number).


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:17 am)

    Steve: No more credible than any other guess. If GM engineers are intent a keeping the gas consumption secret, I’m sure it’s a simple matter to make the display a number that isn’t exactly readable without applying a correction factor or something. We’ll know for certain when it’s officially announced or when owners start reporting their experience.

    I’m guessing that this is part of the reason that GM engineers (AND marketing folks) have kept this stuff so secret – it can be made to look really bad or really good. But this close to launch I think that they are getting fairly confident. As Martha Stewart would say “That’s a good thing.”


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:19 am)

    koz:
    Really? Show one analysis with “realistic” numbers that agrees with 40 miles AER from 8 kwh of energy and 30’s for CS mode at 65mph level ground.  

    First off, I keep reading 8.8 kwh and not 8 for a full charge. Second, you missed the point of my post. The car was not driven in the same way between CD and CS modes. The driver went through a series of tests, but not the same ones twice. You are comparing apples and oranges.


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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:23 am)

    impulse power: Even if mpg is in the mid 30’s in CS mode that’s horrible for this car they spent such long time on developing

    (bold emphasis added is mine)

    You may want to recant that statement, given that the average development cycle of an all-new, conventional automobile is 3 to 5 years.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:23 am)

    A number of good reasons have been put forth on why the CS number is untrustworthy. I’ll add another- the algorithm for calculation. This is mostly based on observations in my Highlander Hybrid. When I pull away from the gas pump (and mileage readings reset), the readout starts out low and seems to take a dozen miles before it settles in at the ‘normal’ mpg that I expect. This is with a warm engine, so I can only conclude that the software algorithm biases the number low when very small volumes of fuel have been used. I have no idea how GM designed their system, but, at least for me, this small utilization of CS is really a very unreliable method of determining average CS.

    Incidentally, if GM is to maintain any credibility, the number has to be AT LEAST in the mid 30s. They have claimed a number competitive within a ‘class’ and if a mid size SUV can get around 30 on the highway, it doesn’t make sense to assume anything less.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:24 am)

    If the Gen I Volt fails to achieve 50 mpg, later generations will (and eventually, far exceed it).

    CS-mode efficiency is limited by how capable the batteries are. To preserve the life of the existing pack, CS-mode “buffering” must be kept to a minimum; so a relatively large generator must be run over a fair range of rpms. A smaller engine running over a narrow range would be more efficient, but the “buffer” needed to average this out over a typical drive would be much larger. We know that much-improved batteries are expected by no later than Gen III.

    The question, it seems to me, is how “good” does CS-mode mpg have to be to begin this evolution? High 30s, low 40s probably are. A number beginning with “2,” probably not so much.

    I still hope for 50-ish mpg in this generation, with reasonable driver care. No one is going to get 50 mpg hot-dogging like the guy in the video.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:25 am)

    CorvetteGuy:
    Go to your Chevy Dealer and place your order today. Allocations so far have been estimates. They get updated on Sept 20th. Your dealer’s allocation could be increased based on number of orders to date. I’m hoping the first year production totals get increased overall because of early high demand.  

    Unfortunately, in some dealerships you can still only put down a deposit, even in the launch markets. My dealer is still seeing “Will Advise” in their ordering system for the options, and won’t put an order in until it is working correctly. Apparently this is happening in the newer launch markets [I'm in NJ], as a few have complained on the ChevroletVoltage forums. I got an email from Chevrolet’s social media manager saying they are looking into the issue and hopefully will have more information soon. meanwhile, my dealer tells me to call each day after 12 noon to see if it is working yet. finally, I got a newsletter from Chevrolet saying the volt is ready for preorder. It’s a bit frustrating. I will be patient though.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:26 am)

    Baltimore17:
    If you’re driving 80 miles between charges, you’re getting double the CS rating.Take your 35 MPG, double it to 70 MPG.How does that not “knock the Prius out”?  

    In the same way that the Prius did not “knock out” every other ICE car, despite getting 50% better fuel economy. And remember the Prius price premium was $3 – 5k, not $15k.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:27 am)

    ….aaaaaaand here comes conspiracy guy ….

    Conspiracy guy is thinking:

    - This AOL video is first and foremost a paid advertisement
    - The recent graduate of the Mike Rowe Spokesperson 3 day seminar is struggling a bit with his assigned task as the sponsors are shooting for a “sport’s car superior to the Leaf” message but the MRS graduate doesn’t want his credibility totally annhilated before he’s even got out the gate. He ends up searching for terms that he’ will say’ like “sporty”.
    - the 8.5 second 0 to 60 is really 10.5 (as evidenced by the audio track, not the chopped up video and the time-warped slow running on screen stop watch) — MRS graduate doesn’t want to be responsible for that one either.

    - conspiracy guy, out.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    OK, George, when we DO get our Volt’s delivered, seems like some ground rules need to be set in terms of environmentals when it comes to measuring CS MPG. I’d say that it is fair to measure this in different temperature ranges. But probably not fair to stomp on the accellerator like crazy, or to switch in and out of mountain mode. Maybe it is worth setting up different categories, not for the pool, so much as being thorough.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:36 am)

    Oh, and before I forget it — I’ll repeat my request for somebody in the know (even if they can’t release it just yet), please keep records of gas used to climb Pikes Peak and please release it eventually. I think it would be GREAT to compare that with other cars doing that. Round trip numbers would be adequate, but probably more interesting if broken up into the climb and the descent.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:38 am)

    JeremyK:
    1) Consider that 1 gallon of gasoline contains 36.6 kWh of energy
    2) The ICE is 25% efficient in converting the chemical energy to mechanical
    3) The generator (and supporting electronics) are 85% efficient in converting mechanical to electrical
    4) It takes 8 kWh to go 40 milesSo:we get 38.9 mpg equivalent.This is really close to my calculations that use aero drag and rolling resistance losses and the required power to overcome those losses at speeds around 70 mph.You can tweak the efficiencies to your liking, but these are values that I typically use when doing back of the napkin calculations.  

    I’ll have to find a link, but I think 34.5 kwh/gallon is more accurate;
    I agree with the 25% TD by the time the energy hits the wheels;
    200 wh/mile is way too low for average daily driving. Even 250 wh/mile is optimistic. Look at Wayne Brown’s data for the Prius: http://privatenrg.com/#Bill_Moores

    The arithmetic works out to (34.5/4)/.25 = 34.5 mpg.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:38 am)

    Baltimore17: If you’re driving 80 miles between charges, you’re getting double the CS rating. Take your 35 MPG, double it to 70 MPG. How does that not “knock the Prius out”? 

    These comparison to gas mileage in a different car is mostly irrelevant. At some point you are excited by, and want, an EV or you don’t. If you play this “I could get X car and spend less money and still get Y MPG” there are plenty of options. Why look at an overpriced Prius? Get a Fit. Or if you want a nicer car get the new Hyundi Sonata — it gets 40 MPG on the highway and will save you a bundle over a Prius. People buy a Prius for many reasons, this type of analysis not being one of them. So why insist on applying it to the Volt? The fact is that from a strictly dollars and cents view both the Volt and the Prius are losers.

    An interesting game to play is to think how you personally would trade off MPG in CS Mode for EV range. For example, if everything were the same, including the price, would you rather have a 40 mile EV range and 45 MPG in CS Mode, or would you prefer a 60 mile EV range and 30 MPG in CS Mode? Personally I would prefer an 80 mile EV range, and I’d take a 20 MPG in CS Mode to get it, but everyone will have a different take on this. If you only care about the MPG in CS Mode and don’t care about the EV range, then you’re a good candidate for the plug in Prius. In fact why bother with the plug? But my guess is that most people are far more interested in the EV range than in the mileage, and in this case then they can relax about the CS Mode mileage since it’s not such a critical factor.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:39 am)

    Eco_Turbo: JeremyK Said:Consider that 1 gallon of gasoline contains 36.6 kWh of energy.Is that a warm expanded gallon or a cold shrunk gallon?  

    :) That’s the higher heating value (HHV) which is why I had to thow in an estimate for the ICE efficiency. The energy available to do work is only about 9.15 kWh….which is factored in to my calcs.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:40 am)

    JeremyK: 1) Consider that 1 gallon of gasoline contains 36.6 kWh of energy2) The ICE is 25% efficient in converting the chemical energy to mechanical3) The generator (and supporting electronics) are 85% efficient in converting mechanical to electrical4) It takes 8 kWh to go 40 milesSo: we get 38.9 mpg equivalent.This is really close to my calculations that use aero drag and rolling resistance losses and the required power to overcome those losses at speeds around 70 mph.You can tweak the efficiencies to your liking, but these are values that I typically use when doing back of the napkin calculations.  (Quote)

    Your analysis is a good one but 25% for ICE seems very low. The Prius’ ICE maxes out at 37% efficiency. With steady operation, GM would doing pretty poorly to be below 32%.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:43 am)

    carcus3: – conspiracy guy, out.  

    Isn’t there something that says the simplest explanation is usually the best one? So maybe the Volt is simply “sportier” than the Leaf?

    Also note this is what the CNBC test driver said in so many words — the Volt was “more sedan like”.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:45 am)

    flmark: I have no idea how GM designed their system, but, at least for me, this small utilization of CS is really a very unreliable method of determining average CS.
    Incidentally, if GM is to maintain any credibility, the number has to be AT LEAST in the mid 30s.

    Good point about the same sample and I agree that the MPG in CS Mode needs to be in the mid-30s for marketing purposes.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:45 am)

    Eco_Turbo: Three types of people will be happy with the Volt. Hyper milers, lead-footers, and people who don’t know what they are. Hyper milers and lead-footers will be happy with the Volt. People who don’t know will buy it because everybody else is. What other car can say that?

    This is just precious. And it is why the Volt is hard to put in just one category. That is why the Volt is a game changer (to use an overused term).


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:47 am)

    EricLG: First off, I keep reading 8.8 kwh and not 8 for a full charge.

    Maybe you’re reading wrong or you’re confusing wall to wheels with tank to wheels.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:47 am)

    CorvetteGuy:
    Go to your Chevy Dealer and place your order today. Allocations so far have been estimates. They get updated on Sept 20th. Your dealer’s allocation could be increased based on number of orders to date. I’m hoping the first year production totals get increased overall because of early high demand.  

    =================================

    Unfortunately, Ohio is not in the initial release areas, and I prefer to purchase my vehicles locally. I own a local business and for me, this makes sense. I spoke with the owner of my local Chevy dealership, and he told me it would probably be late fall of 2011 before we will see any Volts in Youngstown. But I am #1 on his list!!!

    All I could hope for is that GM open up more sales areas and that Ohio is close to the top of the list………

    So I will probably be purchasing a 2012 model year Volt.


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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:48 am)

    Dave K.: What is the CS mpg on the 2011 Volt? Depends on how you drive it.

    Absolutely. Every time somebody hopped behind the wheel of that particular Volt, they’re thinking “floor it, test it, push it, corner hard, mash the brakes…”

    Thinking of just the braking now… hard, rapid deceleration shoves all that kinetic energy right out the brake pads as heat. Drive like a reasonable human being [sidebar: are there any left?] and you’ll get a lot of that oomph back in the form of brake regen recycling through the battery.

    People, these numbers are a non-event…


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:49 am)

    herm:
    That british TV show got a Prius to do under 20mpg, at a race track of course..  

    I have had a Prius for 4 years…
    If it is a very cold winter morning and you drive hard with a cold engine one can get the instant MPG to the single digits very easily. And if one drives less that 10 miles in these cold conditions the MPG will be in the low to mid thirties. But if one drives long enough to warm the motor the mileage will get back to low to maybe mid 40s. The outside temp is in the 20s or lower… In summer the MPG is quite a bit higher.

    Now one probably can assume some of the same measurements for any car in these conditions. My truck mileage is lousy under these same conditions.

    The VOLT has a pampered battery environment so it can be expected the numbers should be quite a bit better in most conditions. Let us hope they are…


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:55 am)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Electric propulsion is inherently more efficient than internal combustion. The emissions of a power plant are much easier to deal with at one exhaust stack, vs. thousands or millions of tailpipes. That is, of course, if the power plant has an exhaust stack.

    All true, plus the new natural gas plants are getting to be 65% efficient and we have shale gas out the kazoo.

    Plus there is the pesky security problem. You can’t destroy gasoline as a strategic commodity by using oil for transportation. You can if you use electricity.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:58 am)

    DonC: Isn’t there something that says the simplest explanation is usually the best one? So maybe the Volt is simply “sportier” than the Leaf?

    In looks, yes. The Volt looks sportier than the Leaf.

    But there are ways to measure actual sportiness as you know:

    - 0 to 60 time
    - Slalom course time
    - g meter
    - stopping distance
    - 1/4 mile times
    - top speed
    - figure 8 course time
    - etc…

    Not that sportiness should be the purpose of either the Volt or the Leaf, but I imagine Motortrend will do a compo so we can all be informed/entertained.

    / if we’re going for simple explanations then I guess we can just call the Volt’s mpg 27.3? ;)


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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (9:59 am)

    Chris: ’m a regular reader, and first-time poster. (Minimal flames please.)

    No flames here! Welcome aboard, glad you’ve started posting.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:02 am)

    EricLG:
    I’ll have to find a link, but I think 34.5 kwh/gallon is more accurate;
    I agree with the 25% TD by the time the energy hits the wheels;
    200 wh/mile is way too low for average daily driving. Even 250 wh/mile is optimistic. Look at Wayne Brown’s data for the Prius: http://privatenrg.com/#Bill_MooresThe arithmetic works out to (34.5/4)/.25 = 34.5 mpg.  

    Wh/mile must be estimated…It will be dependent on speed, acceleration, hills, etc. Fundamental calculations at steady state show that wh/mile could be as low as 130 at 30 mpg to > 500 Wh/mile at 100 mph.
    So, 200 Wh/mile relates to about 50 mph. Yes, probably not conservative enough.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    “Plus there is the pesky security problem. You can’t destroy gasoline as a strategic commodity by using oil for transportation. You can if you use electricity.”

    You think you are going to do that with a $41k car that cannot even sit 5 people ? The idea is ludicrous. If you do not mind the enviro cost, just turn shale and coal into liquid fuel and call it a day. All that is required is a tax to match your interests — say, on imported oil.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    Mike-o-Matic:
    (bold emphasis added is mine)You may want to recant that statement, given that the average development cycle of an all-new, conventional automobile is 3 to 5 years.  

    Excellent point. In an interview with Bob Boniface late last year (I believe) on PBS, he said “new” cars take about 4 years at GM and their goal with the Volt was to shave that to 3.5.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:06 am)

    Whatever the MPG in CS mode is or will be, one thing stands out over that. And that is: The Volt will be much better than what has come before it. And it should get better as time goes on.

    The future is coming and it is about time!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:06 am)

    It is a fun video to watch regardless of the numbers.
    GM give us that EPA window sticker chart already to stop this insanity.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:07 am)

    Still believe 50 – 150 mpg not 30′s. I am still looking for EPA to come up useful


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:07 am)

    Chris: Hi–I’m a regular reader, and first-time poster.(Minimal flames please.)This video got my juices flowing more than any I’ve seen so far–and already I was pretty juiced.Here’s why:While I love the idea of being efficient and conscientious, I also want to have a fun car and one that my kids might find “cool.”(Yes, ego matters.)We saw a Karma in person, which clearly is an uber-cool car (maybe too much so).But it’s expensive and perhaps not so practical.The Volt seems incredibly practical, but maybe a serious step down from my current car (an amazing ‘95 540 Sport, again, no flames please).I’ve been worried about the Volt’s fun-factor and cool-factor.Well, my worries are over.My kids (aged 12 to 24) want to know if they can drive it, and when it will arrive.(I’m #1 at my dealer, MSRP).When they get psyched, I get psyched.Frankly speaking, the last digit of MPG is not as important to me as how happy I will be as an early adopter of a undeniably break-through car.Now I am certain–as the first kids on the block with a Volt, we will be thrilled.You all are great.I love reading your posts!Chris  

    Conspiracy guy says:

    I love reading your posts too, “Chris”. Gives me something to think about.

    Conspiracy guy, out.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:11 am)

    Don O: GM give us that EPA window sticker chart already to stop this insanity.

    I agree. I just want to know already.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:18 am)

    Rob: The “disconnect” between what GM engineers/media folks say about the Volt, and important realities concerning it continues. The Volt is a great car. However, it’s $41K MSRP, limited production, and the fact that dealers are already talking about the premium they’ll charge over MSRP will dampen the enthusiasm of many would-be Volt purchasers.  

    And yet the readership and participation at this site continues to grow. My enthusiasm is just starting to take off!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:19 am)

    JeremyK:
    So, 200 Wh/mile relates to about 50 mph. Yes, probably not conservative enough.  

    “Probably” ? lol.
    The truly unknown quantities here are the ICE TD efficiency, and averaged conversion losses. I am guessing 33% from the ICE, and 20% conversion, which sends 26.4% of petrol energy to the wheel. Knock off a percent to two for the Volt’s heavier weight compared to Prius, and I end up with the same 25% you started with. This is steady state driving on the highway. Stick someone in the driver’s seat eager to show that the Volt is fun to drive or mistakenly thinks that regen will let him lead foot without penalty, and mpg is in the 20′s. Do that in freezing temps while keeping the cabin nice and toasty, and we will get reports of 10 mile AER.

    Even GM marketing cannot change physics.


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    Lutz Loser

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:22 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:24 am)

    Loboc:
    And yet the readership and participation at this site continues to grow. My enthusiasm is just starting to take off!  

    Yeah, but those numbers are a blend, including the “trolls”
    Do you work in marketing ?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:26 am)

    EricLG: At this point my only question is why GM (presumably) thought they could do so much better.

    So…you did not mean to say that the CS mileage is in the 30′s and “At this point my only question is why GM (presumably) thought they could do so much better”

    BTW, I did understand you saying that CS is actually better than 27.3mpg but not very much. I’m asking how you “reasonably” deduced 30′s? Do you have a reference where 8.8kwh of the battery is being used for CD mode? I kinda thought they might be inching up this number but have never seen a reference to 8.8.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:26 am)

    Brian: The Volt not being a ugly sub sub compact and could get 50mpg in CS don’t you think GM marketing wouild have made a really big deal about this by now???

    GM marketing hasn’t really been up to snuff in the last few years. The marketing department has been overhauled several times during and after BK.

    Besides, if I had a 50mpg hole card, I’d play it very close to the vest.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:37 am)

    Chris: ….Frankly speaking, the last digit of MPG is not as important to me as how happy I will be as an early adopter of a undeniably break-through car.Now I am certain–as the first kids on the block with a Volt, we will be thrilled.You all are great. I love reading your posts!Chris  (Quote)

    Chris – thanks for sharing your enthusiasm! Its contagious:-)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:39 am)

    Jim in PA: It is virtually impossible to believe that a hybrid with regenerative breaking and a battery to provide acceleration “buffer” would ever get under 30 mpg under normal driving conditions.These are aggressive test track conditions and in no way reflect reality. I wonder how poorly someone could get a Prius to perform (mpg) with highly aggressive driving? That would be an interesting experiment.Enter the trolls…..  

    I am far from a troll and have rationally explained why I feel the mpg for 70 mph, constant speed highway, averaged, regular gas will be 30 mpg or less. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t make me a troll. It’s simple physics to me. That and we have had serial diesel trans for decades yet it never made it to trucks or autos. Why? Yup, those inefficiencies add up to more than a simple transmission to the wheels. Believe it or not, how about you wait for the results in about 3 months before you call us trolls. Fair?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:43 am)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    This story is not over.27 mpg while flogging the car mercilessly on a test track does not come close to normal driving conditions.Remember the Top Gear test track treatment of the Tesla Roadster?I wonder what kind of range the LEAF would achieve under similar conditions (and it doesn’t even have a “Mountain Mode” to demo)?  

    True, but driving 70 mph on the highway is not what you would call a stroll around the park.

    Maybe you are at least considering the possibility that the number will not be 50 mpg?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:46 am)

    EricLG:
    Yeah, but those numbers are a blend, including the “trolls”
    Do you work in marketing ?  

    Nope. Software Engineer.

    It doesn’t matter. Participation is participation. Even negative participation means that the Volt is getting press; and that’s a good thing imho.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:48 am)

    Koz,
    I looked for the 8.8 kwh/charge I have seen after you questioned it. One place is the Volt wikipedia entry, but I would not have relied only on that. I *thought* I read it in some of Lyle’s general writing on the Volt, but I could not find it a moment ago so I may be mistaken about that source.

    I don’t understand your first question.

    I have posted quite a few times my TD guesses and energy/mile estimates, including in this thread.

    Cheers


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:50 am)

    Texas:
    Maybe you are at least considering the possibility that the number

    At 70 on the Highway my XB used to get me about 32 MPG with a 1.5 liter VVTI and Automatic 4 spd transmission

    At 70 on the Highway my Prius gets me about 49 MPG with a 1.8L Atkinson Cylce Engine and a CVT.

    I truly doubt that this 75 hp 1.4litre I4 will get you 40 MPG in the cruise but 27 MPG as a generator in a volt.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:53 am)

    I finally made it in to work and took time to watch the entire video. That was great! He was driving it as hard as he could and it still shows impressive numbers. The VOLT my family gets will be replacing a Nissan Altima SL with all the extras. That car gets 29 mpg on a regular basis, and maybe up to 39-40 on a long drive to Phoenix.

    Since most of my wife’s driving is in the ‘all-electric 40 mile range’, even if the VOLT’s CS Mode MPG is the same as the Altima, she will still cut her gasoline usage by 90%.

    Great job GM!!!


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (10:54 am)

    Texas,
    We are “trolls” because we do not drink the kool-aid. If you read the engineering sub-section you will find people keenly interested in the Volt who think CS mpg will be in the 30′s.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:00 am)

    Texas: I am far from a troll and have rationally explained why I feel the mpg for 70 mph, constant speed highway, averaged, regular gas will be 30 mpg or less. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t make me a troll. It’s simple physics to me.

    You’re not a troll, sir. Just uninformed. The VOLT design is not optimized for high-mpg at a constant speed of 70 mph. It’s designed for commuters. I suppose a commute to work on some of those long Texas highways can be at 70 mph, but here in California we’re not always that lucky. And I’m talking about the 405, the 91, and any part of the 5 freeways in Orange County.

    But watching that video sure tells me that driving the VOLT is going to be fun on those days where I don’t care about fuel economy. Woo-hoo!!


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:01 am)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:02 am)

    EricLG: You think you are going to do that with a $41k car that cannot even sit 5 people ? The idea is ludicrous.

    Actually you’re being a moron. Did the first digital camera that cost $12k eliminate film cameras? Did the first MP3 player that cost $700displace CDs? Of course not. Wake up, smell the coffee, and recognize that the first of anything with truly new technology comes with a high price tag. The Volt and the Leaf are the first mass produced EVs. Others will come with better features and lower prices.

    Get over your fixation with the Prius. It’s yesterday. Move on.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:04 am)

    Nick D:
    At 70 on the Highway my XB used to get me about 32 MPG with a 1.5 liter VVTI and Automatic 4 spd transmissionAt 70 on the Highway my Prius gets me about 49 MPG with a 1.8L Atkinson Cylce Engine and a CVT.I truly doubt that this 75 hp 1.4litre I4 will get you 40 MPG in the cruise but 27 MPG as a generator in a volt.  

    Very fair reasoning. The differences though are the open question: one, how much conversion losses are there, that your two examples do not have; and second, how successful is the Volt design in keeping the ICE operating against optimal load ?

    My guess (and I emphasize, guess) is that in way to many driving scenarios the Volt does poorly in one or the other efficiency sapping scenarios. You know, it is not exactly new news in drivetrain engineering that serial hybrid designs beat parallel when the energy starts from the battery, but are worse when the energy starts from an engine.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:05 am)

    Texas:
    I am far from a troll and have rationally explained why I feel the mpg for 70 mph, constant speed highway, averaged, regular gas will be 30 mpg or less. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t make me a troll.It’s simple physics to me. That and we have had serial diesel trans for decades yet it never made it to trucks or autos. Why? Yup, those inefficiencies add up to more than a simple transmission to the wheels. Believe it or not, how about you wait for the results in about 3 months before you call us trolls. Fair?  

    Yes, from an engineering/physics standpoint, it’s hard to dispute that the CS mileage at 70 mph will be anything greater than 30. It’s going to take 17 kW just to move the car over the road and through the air (due to drag). That’s power required at the wheels. This is pretty easy to estimate using the “car equation” (Google it). Edit: Here’s a link http://autoxprize.typepad.com/axp/2007/10/the-car-equatio.html

    Now, back calculate using your best guesses for efficiencies of the ICE and gen set and power electronics…I ended up with a required output of 19.9 kW at the ICE at 70 mph, which comes out to 29.4 mpg.

    Hard for even me to believe, but the numbers don’t lie….my assumptions might, but the numbers don’t.

    As other have said, it’s the daily composite mileage that is important for each individual…so don’t be too sad.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:09 am)

    Texas: Maybe you are at least considering the possibility that the number will not be 50 mpg?

    Are you at least considering that it is far too early to declare victory and claim confirmation for your point of view? As for what I’m considering, I refer you to my #80; particularly this part:

    “The question, it seems to me, is how “good” does CS-mode mpg have to be to begin this evolution? High 30s, low 40s probably are. A number beginning with “2,” probably not so much.”


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:10 am)

    DonC:
    Actually you’re being a moron. Did the first digital camera that cost $12k eliminate film cameras? Did the first MP3 player that cost $700displace CDs? Of course not. Wake up, smell the coffee, and recognize that the first of anything with truly new technology comes with a high price tag. The Volt and the Leaf are the first mass produced EVs. Others will come with better features and lower prices.
    Get over your fixation with the Prius. It’s yesterday. Move on.  

    Moron is in the eyes of the beholder. For every gadget that started out very high priced and eventually succeeded with mass market adoption as prices came down, there are *hundreds* of examples of those that entertained hobbyists for a while and then faded into history. You may not have noticed, but the Volt is subject to market economies unrelated to the semiconductor industry.

    Just curious, do you have any clue what the $/kwh of battery capacity has trended over the past 5 years ? I’ll give you a hint: it has not followed Moore’s law.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:10 am)

    If the Volt got more than 40 mpg in CS GM would be screaming it through a blow horn. Everyone seems to forget the effect of the weight of the battery. Look at the total weight of the car and compare it the mpg of similar weighted cars then subract ~20% for regen and add 10% for loss in energy conversion. If this car gets better than 36 mpg at 55mph on the freeway I will be very surprised. I would say around 32-34 highway. They are not releasing the CS mpg rating for the same reason they waited so long to release the price, they are not talking about the bad points, use simple logic people. Anyone who thinks they can get greater that 40 mpg avg in CS mode probably also believes in EESTOR still. I am not saying the VOLT is a bad car because this mode will rarely be used by an educated purchaser. The Volt is both an engineering and ingenious marvel. Remember 75% commute less than 40 miles per day.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:11 am)

    Texas: I am far from a troll and have rationally explained why I feel the mpg for 70 mph, constant speed highway, averaged, regular gas will be 30 mpg or less. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t make me a troll. It’s simple physics to me. That and we have had serial diesel trans for decades yet it never made it to trucks or autos. Why? Yup, those inefficiencies add up to more than a simple transmission to the wheels. Believe it or not, how about you wait for the results in about 3 months before you call us trolls. Fair?

    This may be a really stupid question, but does any car? I thought that the sticker number was based on an EPA cycle that tested at much lower speeds?


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:14 am)

    usbseawolf2000: It is a plugin hybrid.

    The Plug-In Prius is a plug-in hybrid. The gas engine is still connected to the transmission that is turning the wheels. The VOLT is an EREV. The engine turns a generator, and only when needed. The Prius is using gasoline all the time, every day.

    We are less than 100 days away from consumers learning that MPG’s is nowhere near as important as “GPY”. (Gallons-Per-Year). Use any math that you want. The VOLT will use less gasoline per year than the Prius, and THAT sir is the entire point. (Which is why we just snicker at every post you can come up with.)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:14 am)

    DonC: Actually you’re being a moron. Did the first digital camera that cost $12k eliminate film cameras? Did the first MP3 player that cost $700displace CDs? Of course not. Wake up, smell the coffee, and recognize that the first of anything with truly new technology comes with a high price tag. The Volt and the Leaf are the first mass produced EVs. Others will come with better features and lower prices. Get over your fixation with the Prius. It’s yesterday. Move on.  (Quote)

    Haha – I paid $250 for the Rio MP3 player back in 1999 that held 8 songs. But you know what that thing NEVER skipped like my discman did.

    In 2003 I spent $25 on a usb drive MP3 player that held 1Gb of music, had radio, a voice recorder, file storage, and some other features that i do not remember.

    Tech moves fast, prices move to match.


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    Chris C.

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:14 am)

    John M: I will be using CS mode for most of my trip of 1136 miles from the dealer in VA to Miami.

    John M, over in the forums we have a thread called “long distance purchasers” where I am gathering people (like myself) who are buying far from home. Would you mind commenting in there for us? There’s a few thoughts in that thread from those of us who have made this same decision.

    CorvetteGuy: Allocations so far have been estimates. They get updated on Sept 20th. Your dealer’s allocation could be increased based on number of orders to date.

    Ohhhh, good to know. Sept 20th.

    Back to the content-free bickering and name-calling …


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:15 am)

    Well, the West Coast is up; so there’s no point sticking around.

    Enjoy the trolls, everybody …


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:24 am)

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    storm

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:28 am)

    ziv: I take your point, Eric. But the Volt doesn’t make sense financially, even if gas goes above $4 a gallon, a Cruze is cheaper and much less complicated, not to mention a Prius.

    No new vehicle “makes sense financially”. Buying a new car is an emotional decision which folks later try to justify rationally. A Toyota Land Cruiser is over $60K. Does it make sense financially? It does for those who want whatever it is the TLC has to offer. Name another vehicle that offers what the Volt offers. If you want what the Volt offers, then it is worth the money.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:32 am)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:34 am)

    Yes. We’ve all read about the ‘amazing’ performance of a Plug-In Prius:

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid.html

    “Toyota says its first-generation lithium-ion batteries are capable of taking the Prius PHV Concept 12 miles on all-electric power – which will come from a plug-in power source. The Prius PHV Concept’s top speed in electric mode is 62 mph.”

    That 12-mile AER will sure impress everyone this November. Tick-Tock my friend. The age of the Prius will be over soon enough.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:37 am)

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    Streetlight

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    The 8.+ sec 0-60 is right on expectations. Mountain mode charge to 45% SoC should be higher. However, the ER ICE <30 mpg report falls far short of the middle 30's most thought likely. This must be improved at least 20% in short time. (We do the impossible in zero time.) Yesterday was about GM's 'everything on the table' search for an ER engine. We see why. Really… VOLT needs a 12 g. tank. The good news is VOLT comes off as a great driving car.

    A must read:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2010/08/its-not-easy-being-green/61954/


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    DonC

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    EricLG: Just curious, do you have any clue what the $/kwh of battery capacity has trended over the past 5 years ? I’ll give you a hint: it has not followed Moore’s law. 

    I think I have a very good idea. The fact is that it doesn’t need to. Right now with the subsidy the Leaf is priced competitively with the Prius. And it’far more desirable since it’s vastly more advanced technologically and it’s a much greener alternative to boot. So what has to happen is that the price of the Leaf has to come down so that the subsidies can be removed. That is going to turn on volume because the issue for pricing isn’t so much the battery as the other components. Battery prices will continue to decline, no doubt about that, but the big push will be to get the prices of the other specialized parts down.

    In this regard, if you didn’t need a lot of specialized parts for an EV the Volt would cost under $30K before the tax credit. But when you need everything from the HVAC to bushings to be different from that used in standard ICE or hybrid gas vehicles, the costs go up very fast. IOW as the ride improves and the car becomes more quiet you have to deal with all kinds of issues that your gasser hides with engine noise. It’s a brave new world.

    But I will tell you one more time. The Prius is over. Put a fork in it. Who is going to want a Prius? Take the green creed out and it’s an overpriced Corolla. My friends who have one don’t plan to buy another one — they want a Leaf or a Volt. It’s just a natural progression of better and more interesting technology. And if you don’t want to be cutting edge, then get a Fusion. It’s a better car — a Fusion and a Leaf or a Volt would make for a great combination.


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:41 am)

    #122 usbseawolf2000 Said:

    Volt has an exhaust pipe, gas tank and a gas engine. It is not an EV. It is a plugin hybrid.

    You, Sir, apparently have no control over your right foot.


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    Nick D

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:41 am)

    EricLG: Very fair reasoning. The differences though are the open question: one, how much conversion losses are there, that your two examples do not have; and second, how successful is the Volt design in keeping the ICE operating against optimal load ?My guess (and I emphasize, guess) is that in way to many driving scenarios the Volt does poorly in one or the other efficiency sapping scenarios. You know, it is not exactly new news in drivetrain engineering that serial hybrid designs beat parallel when the energy starts from the battery, but are worse when the energy starts from an engine.  (Quote)

    I appreciate that you are actually hearing others points and discussing the matter. It is rarely that I see someone in opposition that can respect the counterpoint made by the opposing party, plus 1 to negate the -1 on your response, now for my rebuttal…

    I am not failing to take in to account conversion losses. I understand this very well as I did have an EE background in college (decided to go another route with my life). But what I am saying is that the conversion losses from engine to generator to motor will not account for 13MPG between the Cruize and the volt.

    The Engine in the volt is designed to run in one of a few rpm bands optimized for efficiency using the battery buffer for any additional torque and hp needs. Where as the Cruize engine will have to account for changing terrain by revving the engine outside of these optimized PRM bands.

    While the criuze engine is reving across all RPM bands it will regularly be out of the most efficeint RPM range, yet still manages to return 40 MPG. The volt will operate only within these optimized ranges but will suffer the aforementioned conversion losses.

    I have a feeling that the CS MPG will be simmilar to the crize – I am not suggesting it will get 40MPG only trying to get across that it WILL be higher than the 27MPG that was taken from the video.

    Not that any of it matters as I will not use the engine on my typical daily commute. 11,000 miles per year with no gas! (Currently use 220 gallons for this task in my prius).

    Thanks


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:42 am)

    EricLG: Take the bitter truth of reality, CG:The Prius PHV and Volt both offer CD and CS modes, and the CD distance is simply a function of how big a battery is used. CD efficiency results are similar, CS efficiency strongly favors the Prius.Go back to trying to sell corvettes.  (Quote)

    The only reason CS mode is better in the Plug-in-Prius is mostly the difference in battery weight, which means the Volt accomplishes 40 mile electric range, so go buy your prius and burn more gas in total throughout the year. Engineering is about tradeoffs some times and the 40 mile electric range was a better choice says 75% of commuters.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:42 am)

    CorvetteGuy: That 12-mile AER will sure impress everyone this November. Tick-Tock my friend. The age of the Prius will be over soon enough.  

    The first stage of dealing with death is denial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

    Seems he’s stuck.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:45 am)

    I’ve become tired of trying to guestimate/defend/calculate AER/lifetime costs/MPG/efficiencies. Its the same arguments over and over. Anyone that wants to troll or spread FUD, more power to you. No one here buys it, and I think it will just make it sweeter in a few months from now, when happy Volt drivers are spreading the word.

    PS: I dont really understand the idea behind trolling? Unless you are getting paid for it, what’s the point?


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:45 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Yes. We’ve all read about the ‘amazing’ performance of a Plug-In Prius:http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid.html“Toyota says its first-generation lithium-ion batteries are capable of taking the Prius PHV Concept 12 miles on all-electric power – which will come from a plug-in power source. The Prius PHV Concept’s top speed in electric mode is 62 mph.”That 12-mile AER will sure impress everyone this November. Tick-Tock my friend. The age of the Prius will be over soon enough.  

    Unlike the Volt, which seems to be limited to supervised track runs, the Prius PHV is in the semi-wild for you to read and learn about. For about a month now, journalists and people influential on Prius internet sites have been seeded with Prius PHV for about a week at a time, free to drive the car any bloody way they want, and then to report their experiences.

    While Volt enthusiasts have been trying their best to parse marketing releases, Prius PHV reports have been flooding in with an array of data gained from driving while monitoring the OBDI port. They now more about the entire car than you do about the Volt ICE.

    Answer this question please: do you think *anything* prevents Toyota from putting a bigger battery into the Prius PHV, if it turns out a market for it exists ?


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    Nick D

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    The Plug In Prius will only be offered on the highest end Prius – Prius 5 (33k starting cost) at a $6000 premium.

    39k – 3500 rebate for 12 Miles AER if you dont press the pedal to hard
    41K – 7500 rebate for 40 miles AER

    Hmmm…


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:50 am)

    Nick D: I have a feeling that the CS MPG will be simmilar to the crize – I am not suggesting it will get 40MPG only trying to get across that it WILL be higher than the 27MPG that was taken from the video.

    GM’s computer models indicated the Volt would get 50 MPG. Unfortunately reality often has a way of messing with your computer models.

    The point would be that even sophisticated modeling by people who know what they’re doing and who have great resources to draw on may not be completely accurate. Back of the napkin estimates may not be wholly useful when looking at the current problem because there may be issues that you don’t anticipate.

    On the other hand, having the model will be off by 50% would be most unusual.


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    Texas

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:54 am)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:58 am)

    EricLG: Answer this question please: do you think *anything* prevents Toyota from putting a bigger battery into the Prius PHV, if it turns out a market for it exists ?

    The answer to your question is “We don’t care!” You guys are like picnic ants that only show up for the scenery and not the food. We appreciate that you guys are stuck on Prius. Good for you. But I’m not interested in old technology in an ugly little car. Neither are most other people here. Get your jollies on a Toyota website.

    And I am certain when Toyota loses enough market share, they will put larger batteries into a Prius. And then what do you have? A Chevrolet VOLT. Which you claim is unworthy of you. But if it is so unworthy, why would Toyota build one just like it? Answer that one.


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    Texas

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (11:58 am)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):

    “The question, it seems to me, is how “good” does CS-mode mpg have to be to begin this evolution? High 30s, low 40s probably are. A number beginning with “2,” probably not so much.”

    You are singing to the choir, except to the last part. Why wouldn’t 29 be acceptable to city dwellers that will get hundreds of miles per gallon for 90 percent of the year? Are you starting to understand?

    Folks, 10 mpg is excellent if you only need it for a few trips to grandma’s a year! It’s all about the total operating cost, oh, and spending your fuel money in the U.S. rather than funding the Middle East.

    It’s a case by case situation. Does the Volt fit your life? Do the math. Most likely, if you don’t love the highway everyday, it will.


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    carcus3

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:00 pm)

    DonC: The point would be that even sophisticated modeling by people who know what they’re doing and who have great resources to draw on may not be completely accurate. Back of the napkin estimates may not be wholly useful when looking at the current problem because there may be issues that you don’t anticipate.
    On the other hand, having the model will be off by 50% would be most unusual.  

    Lutz and Lauckner used the “back of the napkin” method — Lutz has admitted this. He has also said that they ” did some belt and suspenders stuff because we wanted to move fast”.
    ———
    “Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.”
    - General George S. Patton

    /Too bad Lutz and Lauckner weren’t familiar with Patton.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:06 pm)

    Nick D,
    I expect (guess) the CS mpg will be well over 27 mpg too. I keep coming up with ~ 35 mpg using a couple different approaches.

    As you probably know, the Prius drivetrain has 3 possible energy flow paths from the ICE to wheels:

    1. ICE->planetary gearset (PSD) -> differential
    2. ICE -> PSD -> generator -> motor -> PSD -> differential
    3. ICE -> PSD -> generator -> Inverter -> battery -> Inverter -> motor -> differential

    In Prius CS mode, 72% takes path (1), a few percent take path (3), and the remainder path (2). People much more versed than me have estimated that path (3) has about 15% total energy losses in conversion, and 2 – 5% in the PSD.

    In the Volt design in CS mode, about 3/4rths of the energy flow will be a (3) type path, and 1/4rth a (2) type path. So the conversion losses in the Volt in CS mode are at least 10% higher than a Prius, with an upper bound of ~ 15%.

    Unfortunately for the series design though, another inefficiency lurks: how do you match ICE load to ICE power output in a Volt ? I am unsure of the answer, and it is beyond my ability to figure out. All I can say is that a lot of information is indirectly pointing to ICE efficiency results that are quite inferior to the Prius (which has a splendid eCVT), and maybe inferior to the Cruze with it’s 6 speed gearset.


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    bitguru

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:07 pm)

    KenEE: Guys… the ICE charges the battery.It doesn’t propel the wheels.So it used .59 gallons while the car happened to go 16.1 miles.The ICE would have used the same .59 gallons regardless of how far the car travelled.The energy stored in the battery from burning this .59 gallons may be enough to propel the car an additional 9 miles.

    GM says that the ICE does not charge the battery.

    That’s obviously hogwash. It must recharge the battery, sometimes, at least a little. It remains to see to what degree.

    From what GM has said, I wouldn’t think it would put as many as 9 miles of charge in there.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:07 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: Volt has an exhaust pipe, gas tank and a gas engine. It is not an EV. It is a plugin hybrid.  

    If you want to look at it this way, no big deal. But consider this: For it’s electric RAV4, Toyota had AC Propulsion create the “Long Ranger”, which was a trailer with a generator for supplying electricity on longer trips after the battery went flat. In many senses what GM has done with the Volt is repackage this concept so that you don’t need the trailer and the hitch and all the maintenance that would come with such a setup. IOW GM has made the electric RAV4 system more usable and consumer friendly.

    Given that you’re claiming the only relevant question is whether a car has a tailpipe and an ICE, what you’re effectively saying is that Toyota has been lying when they’ve claimed that the electric RAV4 is an EV since with the “Long Ranger” has a tailpipe and a gas engine. OK. Have it your way.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:10 pm)

    Isn’t it amazing how much ‘sheer panic’ is in the words of these Prius posters. This site, dedicated to keeping us all informed about the development of the Chevrolet VOLT has these guys so scared that they have to post whatever they can each day here…. One has to ask themselves, “Why?”

    If the old-fashioned Prius was still considered ‘cutting-edge’ technology, there would be no need for them to post here at all. Word would spread quickly and people would line up on some Toyota site for their ‘want list’.

    But, no. These poor, panic-stricken souls have to come here daily to try and convince us that the ugly little Prius is still relevant. I can only imagine that their ancestors must have done the same thing in Europe, hundreds of years ago, and tried desperately to convince everyone that the world is still flat, when people were leaving by ships to the new world.

    It’s sad really.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:11 pm)

    CorvetteGuy:
    The Plug-In Prius is a plug-in hybrid. The gas engine is still connected to the transmission that is turning the wheels. The VOLT is an EREV. The engine turns a generator, and only when needed. The Prius is using gasoline all the time, every day.We are less than 100 days away from consumers learning that MPG’s is nowhere near as important as “GPY”. (Gallons-Per-Year). Use any math that you want. The VOLT will use less gasoline per year than the Prius, and THAT sir is the entire point. (Which is why we just snicker at every post you can come up with.)  

    SAE and EPA does not look at what turns the wheel but instead where the energy is coming from. Plug or Gasoline? EPA needs to regulate air pollution. If the exhaust pipe come equipped from the factory, it is a hybrid.

    Gallons-Per-Year idea is good. Unfortunately buyers will be looking at more than that. They’ll be looking at Gallons-Per-Year-Per-Dollar. I am not refuting Volt would consume less gas than the Prius. Well, the Volt better because you need to plug it in. PHV Prius would give the Volt a run for it’s money. 13 EV miles would cover majority of the trips and 50 MPG CS mode is class leading.

    Compared to 15 MPG vehicle over 150k miles:

    $23k Prius would cut 7,000 gallons
    $26k-$29k PHV Prius would cut ~8,000 gallons
    $41k Volt would cut ~8,500 gallons
    $26k Nissan Leaf would cut all 10,000 gallons


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    Texas

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:12 pm)

    LauraM:
    This may be a really stupid question, but does any car?I thought that the sticker number was based on an EPA cycle that tested at much lower speeds?  

    It’s not a stupid question. I have been very specific with the requirements for my estimation. That way, we can easily test it. Even with my specifics, I have gotten very nasty comments for how “stupid” I am for stating a number that was less than 50 mpg (or 40′s ish).

    Now, the EPA cycle is another deal that will be tested for sure. I just want to test the pure efficiencies of the serial hybrid vs. manual transmission debate. You see, the constant speed takes any battery help out of the equation.

    Thus, not stupid, just different than one of the many debates going on.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:14 pm)

    bitguru: From what GM has said, I wouldn’t think it would but an extra 9 miles of charge in there.  

    Ordinarily you’re right that you wouldn’t have much recharging. But in the video they were talking about how in Mountain Mode the genset could take the battery from a 30% SOC to a 45% SOC. That would be 2.4 kWh or 12 miles. Obviously there are a lot of variables.


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    muv66

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:15 pm)

    Two things:

    I’m tired of all the “For $41K this car better get X miles per gallon or I swear I’ll buy a Prius!”. Understand that this first generation car is NOT ABOUT SAVING MONEY!!! Not yet, at least. People who will buy this car are early adopters of new technology and are willing to pay $33,500 after the tax break. End of story.

    Secondly, for those of us who care about weaning our country off petroleum, nearly 80% of US commuters are rarely going to use CS mode except for the occasional road trip. If you drive 100 miles a day and can’t plug in at work, then guess what? This isn’t the car for you. Go buy your Prius.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:17 pm)

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    Loboc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: I suppose a commute to work on some of those long Texas highways can be at 70 mph, but…

    The long stretch of highway, 183 midcities between FtW and Dallas, has a posted limit of 60mph. At 7:30 am, the actual throughput is around 35mph average with lots of dead stops along the way. If there’s an accident in either direction, forget it.

    My commute on this route is 21.5 miles each way and it takes 40 to 60 minutes.

    The west end of 183 that dumps into the FtW bypass (820) is the 6th worst commuter interchange in the entire US.

    Volt is the perfect solution. Shove it into ‘L’ and drive!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: SAE and EPA does not look at what turns the wheel but instead where the energy is coming from. Plug or Gasoline? EPA needs to regulate air pollution. If the exhaust pipe come equipped from the factory, it is a hybrid.Gallons-Per-Year idea is good. Unfortunately buyers will be looking at more than that. They’ll be looking at Gallons-Per-Year-Per-Dollar. I am not refuting Volt would consume less gas than the Prius. Well, the Volt better because you need to plug it in. PHV Prius would give the Volt a run for it’s money. 13 EV miles would cover majority of the trips and 50 MPG CS mode is class leading.Compared to 15 MPG vehicle over 150k miles:$23k Prius would cut 7,000 gallons$26k-$29k PHV Prius would cut ~8,000 gallons$41k Volt would cut ~8,500 gallons$26k Nissan Leaf would cut all 10,000 gallons  (Quote)

    Your savings figures are a little slanted, let me guess your a prius fan.

    Most daily commutes are more than 13 miles round trip you koolaid drinker!! The gas savings will be way greater in a Volt than a Plug in Prius.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:19 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:22 pm)

    DonC:
    If you want to look at it this way, no big deal. But consider this: For it’s electric RAV4, Toyota had AC Propulsion create the “Long Ranger”, which was a trailer with a generator for supplying electricity on longer trips after the battery went flat. In many senses what GM has done with the Volt is repackage this concept so that you don’t need the trailer and the hitch and all the maintenance that would come with such a setup. IOW GM has made the electric RAV4 system more usable and consumer friendly.Given that you’re claiming the only relevant question is whether a car has a tailpipe and an ICE, what you’re effectively saying is that Toyota has been lying when they’ve claimed that the electric RAV4 is an EV since with the “Long Ranger” has a tailpipe and a gas engine. OK. Have it your way.  

    By your reasoning, if you put a Leaf on a trailer it becomes a hybrid. What nonsense.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:24 pm)

    “Secondly, for those of us who care about weaning our country off petroleum,”

    All those people who *actually* care weaned themselves off 25 mpg cars a decade ago. The yapping you hear on this site is from poseurs.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:25 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: SAE and EPA does not look at what turns the wheel but instead where the energy is coming from. Plug or Gasoline? EPA needs to regulate air pollution. If the exhaust pipe come equipped from the factory, it is a hybrid.Gallons-Per-Year idea is good. Unfortunately buyers will be looking at more than that. They’ll be looking at Gallons-Per-Year-Per-Dollar. I am not refuting Volt would consume less gas than the Prius. Well, the Volt better because you need to plug it in. PHV Prius would give the Volt a run for it’s money. 13 EV miles would cover majority of the trips and 50 MPG CS mode is class leading.Compared to 15 MPG vehicle over 150k miles:$23k Prius would cut 7,000 gallons$26k-$29k PHV Prius would cut ~8,000 gallons$41k Volt would cut ~8,500 gallons$26k Nissan Leaf would cut all 10,000 gallons  (Quote)

    Ahh! So there is agreement here after all. I’m not sure what your profession is, but mine is selling car and trucks. One more thing that I believe you would agree to is, most people will buy the “nicest, most comfortable and well equipped car” that their budget will allow.

    The VOLT is higher in price and will attract a different client base than the Prius. Sure, there will be some crossover in both directions. Those who can’t afford a VOLT may buy a Prius. Those who are considering a Prius but CAN afford the VOLT (which will use less gasoline per year) may go over to Chevrolet.

    It’s the ‘smugness’ of the Prius posters that I find very funny. Toyota is the only carmaker allowed to build a car that uses less gas? I think not. There’s another player in town, and in about 90 days the game is going to change. Good luck to you guys. Which Toyota Dealer do you work for again?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:26 pm)

    “Most daily commutes are more than 13 miles round trip you koolaid drinker!!”

    Yep, but I suspect that most people interested (and actually commited to buying) a PHV will have a plug at work.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:28 pm)

    MikeD.: Unfortunately, in some dealerships you can still only put down a deposit, even in the launch markets. My dealer is still seeing “Will Advise” in their ordering system for the options, and won’t put an order in until it is working correctly. Apparently this is happening in the newer launch markets [I'm in NJ], as a few have complained on the ChevroletVoltage forums. I got an email from Chevrolet’s social media manager saying they are looking into the issue and hopefully will have more information soon. meanwhile, my dealer tells me to call each day after 12 noon to see if it is working yet. finally, I got a newsletter from Chevrolet saying the volt is ready for preorder. It’s a bit frustrating. I will be patient though.  (Quote)

    Any dealer that has signed up as a Launch Market dealer and agreed to meet the training, special tools and other requirements, has already gotten their initial estimated shipments number that covers production through June 2011. All launch market dealers should be able to submit orders (NOTE: if the dealership personnel has not done initial training they may not know that they MUST use GM’s ‘quick order’ process rather than other order submission methods). There may not be pricing information in any of GM’s dealer tools for some time, but the official pricing is announced and can easily be calculated. Many dealers, like CorvetteGuy, have put up their own ordering sheet since the VOLT is so easy with very few options.

    If you don’t feel you’re getting good answers, keep shopping until you find a dealer you are comfortable with – don’t give up!


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:30 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:32 pm)

    Jim in PA: It is virtually impossible to believe that a hybrid with regenerative breaking and a battery to provide acceleration “buffer” would ever get under 30 mpg under normal driving conditions.These are aggressive test track conditions and in no way reflect reality. I wonder how poorly someone could get a Prius to perform (mpg) with highly aggressive driving? That would be an interesting experiment.Enter the trolls…..  

    iirc the uk program top gear did this a few years back. they put it up against a BMW 3 series I think and raced on an actual race course, pushing both cars flat out. I don’t remember the mpg numbers but the prius faired poorly- the Beemer actually bested it in mpg!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:32 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    Eco_Turbo: #122 usbseawolf2000 Said:Volt has an exhaust pipe, gas tank and a gas engine. It is not an EV. It is a plugin hybrid.You, Sir, apparently have no control over your right foot.  

    I am a righty on hands and lefty for the foot. ;)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:34 pm)

    Texas: I have gotten very nasty comments for how “stupid” I am for stating a number that was less than 50 mpg (or 40’s ish).

    I’d be very surprised — pleasantly of course — if it were 50 MPG. The 50 MPG number at this point seems more aspirational than anything. Lutz has implied — and everything he’s said other than the mistake of his first estimate on costs has been right on — the the MPG in CS Mode would be between 40 MPG and 50 MPG. And rarely do you hit the endpoints.

    But I think you may be off when saying that the CS Mode mileage will be low at a constant 70 MPH. The Volt genset will hit peak efficiency when using 30 kW moving slightly uphill at 65 MPH. This isn’t that far off from a constant 70 MPH on flat ground. Given that the computer model suggested the genset would get 50 MPG on average, and given that the genset may be very close to peak efficiency when the Volt is going 70 MPH on flat ground, you may actually be able to get 50 MPG under your test scenario. It may be that going at other speeds brings this number down. Not the other way around.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:34 pm)

    Texas: Believe it or not, how about you wait for the results in about 3 months before you call us trolls. Fair?

    Of course that’s fair. I never insinuated that all disagreements were by trolls. I was refering to the “dumdum” crowd. You know the ones…..


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    CookJ:
    40 mile electric range was a better choice says 75% of commuters.

    You are assuming Home->Work->Home commute is all the trip you’ll drive in the Volt. The insurance data clearly shows majority of ALL the trips are less than 5 miles.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:39 pm)

    EricLG: “Most daily commutes are more than 13 miles round trip you koolaid drinker!!”Yep, but I suspect that most people interested (and actually commited to buying) a PHV will have a plug at work.  (Quote)

    I like it! Prius drivers have to make assumptions about having an available plug. Sorry this is not the current situation for MOST!! Think large market like GM has. Most people who own a Volt will probably burn less than 300 gallons of fuel in 150k miles. This will not even come close for your 13 mile PHV Prius. Counting on a plug for a round trips is not reliable even at most work locations currently, I suppose you think places of work will also let people charge without a huge markup. When it is a reliable source maybee GM will decrease it’s bat size and increase mpg in CS mode.


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    DonC

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:41 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: Prius was not made to gain “green creed”. Maybe the Volt is. Prius is a functional, practical, spacious, efficient, technologically advanced, loaded with luxury features and an affordable car.

    You’re delusional. The Prius is a little commuter car that people buy to make a statement about their environmentally conscious selves. It is not a “luxury” car in any way shape or form. Not knocking people who want to demonstrate that they are environmentally conscious, just pointing out the obvious.

    In this regard, there is a reason why Prius owners are clustered by zipcode and why you’ve never seen a Prius with a McCain bumper sticker. I’ve been looking for one since I concluded that the Obama bumper stickers were a factory installed accessory. Haven’t found one yet.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:44 pm)

    Texas: You are singing to the choir, except to the last part. Why wouldn’t 29 be acceptable to city dwellers that will get hundreds of miles per gallon for 90 percent of the year? Are you starting to understand?

    First of all, I said “not so much,” not “unacceptable.” The lower initial CS-mode mpg is, the harder further evolution will be to justify, if only because the Volt would then sell primarily to those who consider CS-mode mpg to be marginally important. The market’s first word often drowns out the second; which brings me to my second point: While it is factually correct that even poor CS-mode mpg will still make the Volt attractive to many, it would be a tragedy in the less-logical world of marketing and perceptions. You’ve had a taste of the Toyo-trolls today (more than making up for the absence of John-boy). This noise would lessen greatly with a decent CS-mode mpg figure.

    It is not a question of understanding, I ‘get’ the argument. I just think that it’s relevance is overstated.

    I also happen to disagree with your low-mpg arguments, but that’s a separate issue.

    It is also because of perceptions that I often promote the idea of an EREV80 or 100 (over DonC’s present-day-logic objections): By the time it is economically feasible to build such an EREV, BEVs will have achieved far greater ranges; and the Volt may seem deficient. However, I think BEV makers are headed into a trap with cars which must depend on an advanced type of infrastructure to fully recharge themselves. As batteries advance, the limiting factor will cease to be cost, and start to be more one of “how much charge can you reasonably accumulate overnight in your garage?” Keep in mind that the batteries will be more capable overall, allowing a much smaller engine to be used as the range-extender (see #80), needed primarily only for over-the-road travel. Such an engine needs to produce only a fraction of the HP of today’s Volt at highway speeds; the car would depend on the batteries for surges of acceleration far outside the generator’s capacity.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:45 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:46 pm)

    DonC:
    The Volt genset will hit peak efficiency when using 30 kW moving slightly uphill at 65 MPH. This isn’t that far off from a constant 70 MPH on flat ground.

    Wayne Brown (who I trust implicitly) has measured 17.5 kw net energy use in the Prius at 70 mph.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:47 pm)

    EricLG: … their budget will allow. Is that supposed to mean something ? My income is about $250k a year, my ‘budget’ this year will be $20k for my kid’s colleges and $25k for my household. What car am I buying, according to you ?

    Apparently a Prius. That’s why my entire sales team is laughing right now. :)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:48 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: You are assuming Home->Work->Home commute is all the trip you’ll drive in the Volt. The insurance data clearly shows majority of ALL the trips are less than 5 miles.  (Quote)

    -Just because most trips are less than 5 miles doesn’t mean you will always have time to charge between them
    -People obviosly drive more than one trip because 3650 miles is not the average mileage for the year. The average mileage daily for a driver is closer to 38, wow that number sounds familiar almost close to 40.
    Koolaid!!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:51 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: You are assuming Home->Work->Home commute is all the trip you’ll drive in the Volt. The insurance data clearly shows majority of ALL the trips are less than 5 miles. 

    OK. So all trips in the Volt will be done in EV mode since people will use opportunity charging. Works for me.

    To some extent that’s not a bad assumption since I don’t know of anyone who owns a Prius who takes it on a long trip. Too small and uncomfortable. Ditto for the Volt — so there will be plenty of shorter trips with chances for opportunity charging. Maybe not every trip will be short and allow opportunity charging, but enough so that the 230 MPG will probably turn out to be a number which is too low.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:53 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:54 pm)

    EricLG: This is not what I said. I said that I suspect that the majority of PHV purchasers will have a plug at work. Otherwise the PHV option is just too expensive. Witness the Volt.  (Quote)

    I understand, but that is not an option for the masses but the VOLT is! Thank you for proving what I am talking about and what GM obviously was seeing!!!!! VOLT, better design for the masses right now. I never said the VOLT was cost effective at this time. That will come with major adoption.


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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:54 pm)

    Eco_Turbo: You, Sir, apparently have no control over your right foot.

    Eco,

    I also suffer from a foot-related condition, but it’s a little different than his. I’m not a speeder or reckless driver, or anything like that. Rather, on a frequent basis, I can barely resist the urge to utilize said foot to deliver high quantities of kinetic energy to certain persons’ backsides.

    Although… on rare occasions, it actually happens… and it is rather satisfying. So I guess it’s not all bad.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:58 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: Please provide your source. I hope it is not from what you are sitting on.  

    Testy testy. I don’t know anyone who has bought a Prius for less than $28K. Usually more. Then again they buy all those “luxury” items like the (completely lame) nav system that comes standard with the Volt.

    Then again, given the quality of the Prius nav system, and how awesome Google Navigation, which will be used in the Volt, is — truly remarkable — maybe they should start skipping the “luxuries”. Plus when all those who in the past would have bought a Prius are now buying Leafs and Volts — Nissan has said that over 50% of Leaf buyers previously owned a Prius — maybe Toyota will be having inventory clearance sales. Definitely need to cancel plans for US production. No need for it.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (12:59 pm)

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    Timaaayyy!!!

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:01 pm)

    John M: What is this obsession with CS mileage?

    Lots of detail-oriented posters here, so they naturally want to know details such as CS mileage, weight, exact gas tank volume, radio data storage capacity, CD coefficient, ICE details for > Gen I, battery chemistry, etc.

    This site is not necessarily a representative example of early Volt customers. No one is sure what it is representative of, actually. My guess is a big mix of passionate interests, or else a post isn’t made. And where there’s passion, logic is just a veneer on emotion.

    Like I’ve posted before, however, CS mileage seems to be a big issue with a material percentage of posters, so GM would be wise to consider it a material issue. GM can and will deal with the issue how they want, of course, such as downplaying it as not aligned with the primary goal/vision of the car, as much as maximum hauling loads or minimum Nurburgring lap times aren’t, either.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:02 pm)

    DonC: In this regard, there is a reason why Prius owners are clustered by zipcode and why you’ve never seen a Prius with a McCain bumper sticker. I’ve been looking for one since I concluded that the Obama bumper stickers were a factory installed accessory. Haven’t found one yet.

    Do people still have McCain bumper stickers? Period? I haven’t seen one since the election. Not that I’ve looked too carefully…


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    EricLG: I understand, but that is not an option for the masses but the VOLT is!Thank you for proving what I am talking about and what GM obviously was seeing!!!!!VOLT, better design for the masses right now.I never said the VOLT was cost effective at this time.That will come with major adoption.

    You think cost ineffective design is a winner ?

    The design itself is not “cost ineffective.” The fact that they’re making them at low volumes (for the moment) renders it expensive. There is a difference.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    DonC:
    I don’t know anyone who has bought a Prius for less than $28K.

    Now you do.

    Look up the Prius sales by trim. #1 is $23 – 25k msrp, Prius 2 sells for as low as $21k today in some areas of the US. I personally am more than satisfied with my circa 2004 nav, but you are more than welcome to spend $20,000 more for the Volt version.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:07 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:09 pm)

    DonC: For it’s electric RAV4, Toyota had AC Propulsion create the “Long Ranger”, which was a trailer with a generator for supplying electricity on longer trips after the battery went flat.

    RAV4 EV came out from the factory without tail pipe, gas tank nor gas engine. The generator trailer was not even sold or offered as an option.

    The Volt would come out of the factory with gas tank, gas engine and exhaust pipe. Dealer might even fill up the tank.

    Again, SAE classify hybrid based on power sources of the car (no add-ons). No matter how you spin it, Volt is a hybrid that just happened you can plug in.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:13 pm)

    EricLG: The fact that that the Volt has two drivetrains and 16 kwh of batteries makes it expensive.

    “Drive train” usually refers to everything from the motive source of power to the wheels. The Prius has two complete drive trains. The Volt has two power sources, but only one drive train. As others have pointed out, the Volt’s newness and low volume (and yes, it’s large battery) have most to do with it’s cost.

    It might be interesting to see what Toyota’s attempt to duplicate the Volt would cost — even though Toyota is better able to take a deliberate loss in the beginning as it did with the Prius.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:15 pm)

    EricLG: Of course they are smug.

    southpark.jpg

    Keep the laughs coming.


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    JeremyK

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:17 pm)

    kdawg: I’ve become tired of trying to guestimate/defend/calculate AER/lifetime costs/MPG/efficiencies.Its the same arguments over and over.Anyone that wants to troll or spread FUD, more power to you.No one here buys it, and I think it will just make it sweeter in a few months from now, when happy Volt drivers are spreading the word.PS: I dont really understand the idea behind trolling?Unless you are getting paid for it, what’s the point?  

    As much as I enjoy obsessing about this stuff, I have to agree. The ICE effic. has a huge effect on my calcs. and I could scientifically argue numbers from 30 mpg all the way to 50 mpg depending on the circumstances.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:20 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Isn’t it amazing how much ’sheer panic’ is in the words of these Prius posters.

    Panic is in the CS MPG and Lifetime MPG of the Volt. 40 EV mile is still in doubt since the test drive in the video is only in a closed loop.

    I wish the Volt is out now so owners can report the real MPG in the real-world. Or at least let some fan drive it for a week, like Toyota is doing now with the PHV Priuses. What is there to hide? This would also eliminate your misguided “Prius killer” voltardic drama.

    I think Prius owners are simply providing their real-world hybrid experience and correcting many unfounded claims. The more you attack the Prius, the more their responses will be. Simple.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:20 pm)

    ” I don’t know of anyone who owns a Prius who takes it on a long trip.”

    Just what is your sample size ? 3 ?

    I read Prius enthusiast sites, and reports of 1000+ mile trips are a dime a dozen. Taxi drivers put 50-100k miles A YEAR on their Prius.


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    Timaaayyy!!!

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:22 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Keep the laughs coming.  (Quote)

    Timaaayyy!!!


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:26 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    “Drive train” usually refers to everything from the motive source of power to the wheels.The Prius has two complete drive trains.The Volt has two power sources, but only one drive train.

    Take out your fingers, we are going to do a little counting:

    Volt:
    1 ICE
    2 M/G units
    1 Inverter
    1 16 kwh traction battery
    At least one planetary gearset, at least one clutch

    Prius PHV:
    1 ICE
    2 M/G units
    1 Inverter
    1 ~ 6(?) kwh traction battery
    1 planetary gearset, maybe (I am not sure) one clutch


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    Jim I

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:27 pm)

    Paging Tag! Paging Tag!

    Tag, please report in to gm-volt.com

    Thank you.

    ;-)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:27 pm)

    DonC: t the Obama bumper stickers were a factory installed accessory. Haven’t found one yet.

    My Prius had a Ron Paul Bumper Sticker… Does that count?


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    cybereye

     

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:30 pm)

    Dave K.: Use a stop watch and see what you get on the 0-60. It’s closer to 9 seconds than it is to 7.
    http://www.online-stopwatch.com/

    Using the online stopwatch is not really time the car 0-60, but time the video playback. From the math point of view of what I got out is 7.55 subtract from 1.20. I know it not the best way either, but it better than the online stopwatch. The driver should have bring it own stopwatch for the best timming. I take this info as a grain of salt.


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    flmark

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:34 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: Volt has an exhaust pipe, gas tank and a gas engine. It is not an EV. It is a plugin hybrid.  (Quote)

    I really get sick of this reasoning. Why don’t we come up with a new word, like “ComboDrive”. “Hybrid” implies blending. The gas engine is a supplement, it is a ‘plus’. It comes in LATER. It is SECONDARY. You simply cannot use old terminology to describe a COMPLETELY NEW thing. The television was an extrapolation from radio- we got sound AND pictures instead of just sound via radio waves. It got its own word. If you don’t like my words come up with your own, but quit using a term that is MISLEADING!!!!!! There are novices out there in this EV realm who will get lost if you keep describing things poorly.


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    Unintended Deceleration

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:37 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Impulse power

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:38 pm)

    Baltimore17: See, this is the kind of simplistic, faulty analysis that completely misses the methodology for computing average MPG — given a CS MPG rating plus max use of the battery. This poster says nothing about the distance he typically plans to drive after each charge, but uses a CS MPG number to jump to the unsupported conclusion that a Prius would be better for him. “Oh, no, you don’t want to buy a Volt. It only gets 27.3 MPG. Buy a Prius. It gets 51 MPG.” A conversation between two clueless people, one of whom drives 50 miles per day and would get 136 MPG with the Volt, the other who drives 40 miles per day and would use no gasoline at all.  (Quote)

    Simplistic maybe but you have missed the point. You know the price point of the volt, it is out of reach for most consumers. Another point is VOLT can’t even make PZEV in 2011 model year, my prius and civic hybrid met PZEV 5 years ago. Also when you plan to take the vehicle on long trips EV mode becomes useless and mpg is typical of a average compact vehicle (maybe). I think that will be the case unless GM proves me wrong. Also I researched VOLT and LEAF side by side and right now the leaf wins which i will buy, why because I will get the $5000 state tax incen in addition to federal tax incen also car pool lane access in calif. My net cost drops to about $22,000 on LEAF which i can order in November. NO calif carpool for the volt and ZEV for LEAF and not even PZEV for Volt. I really wanted to be on board with VOLT, but GM has given a lot of reasons for me not to be on board.


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    Loboc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:44 pm)

    Timaaayyy!!!: CorvetteGuy: Keep the laughs coming. (Quote)

    Timaaayyy!!!

    HaHaHaHAHaHAAAhAHAHA!!!


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    kdawg

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:45 pm)

    EricLG, usbseawolf2000
    Why do you vist/post to this site?
    It’s obvious you have no desire to purchase a Volt, so why bother with us that do?


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:45 pm)

    flmark:
    I really get sick of this reasoning.Why don’t we come up with a new word, like “ComboDrive”. “Hybrid” implies blending.The gas engine is a supplement, it is a ‘plus’.It comes in LATER.It is SECONDARY.You simply cannot use old terminology to describe a COMPLETELY NEW thing.The television was an extrapolation from radio- we got sound AND pictures instead of just sound via radio waves.It got its own word.If you don’t like my words come up with your own, but quit using a term that is MISLEADING!!!!!! There are novices out there in this EV realm who will get lost if you keep describing things poorly.  

    ok, help me out here. Is the Prius a HV ?
    The Prius PHV has the exact same architecture as the Prius, but a bigger traction battery and a tweaked M/G1 that spins faster. What is this car in your opinion ? Just remember, this car drives 14 miles EV after a charge, and then goes into a CS mode. No, this is not conjecture — the cars are running around as we speak, and multiple daily reports are filed daily.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:46 pm)

    LauraM:
    This may be a really stupid question, but does any car?I thought that the sticker number was based on an EPA cycle that tested at much lower speeds?  

    These are some of the cycles EPA run to get the combined MPG. I think Volt’s 40 miles EV range is based on UDDS.

    http://www.epa.gov/oms/emisslab/methods/sc03dds.gif
    http://www.epa.gov/oms/emisslab/methods/us06dds.gif
    http://www.epa.gov/oms/emisslab/methods/uddsdds.gif
    http://www.epa.gov/oms/emisslab/methods/ftpdds.gif


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    LauraM

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:50 pm)

    Unintended Deceleration: I luv my prius and she love me back. she even take me places i dont wanna go. on gas she creates herself. my ugly betty. she greatest

    volt bad.

    thank yu

    In all seriousness, you really need to get out more. If bars are too intimidating, try a coffee shop. Or even a Barnes & Nobles.


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    flmark

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:50 pm)

    flmark: I really get sick of this reasoning. Why don’t we come up with a new word, like “ComboDrive”. “Hybrid” implies blending. The gas engine is a supplement, it is a ‘plus’. It comes in LATER. It is SECONDARY. You simply cannot use old terminology to describe a COMPLETELY NEW thing. The television was an extrapolation from radio- we got sound AND pictures instead of just sound via radio waves. It got its own word. If you don’t like my words come up with your own, but quit using a term that is MISLEADING!!!!!! There are novices out there in this EV realm who will get lost if you keep describing things poorly.  (Quote)

    And let me add something else to this thought. Think of the words ‘oven’, ‘toaster’ and ‘toaster oven’. All three bring different things to mind, don’t they? Different size, different foods, different energy usage, different, different, different, yet they all reallly do the same thing- heat food. ‘Hybrid’ is a poor excuse of usage of a term of communication in this case. And that is what we are talking about is COMMUNICATION. Communication is TWO WAY!!! Talking and writing are ONE WAY. If you want to COMMUNICATE, you must evaluate how your words are PERCEIVED not just DELIVERED. People who refuse to COMMUNICATE because of the presence of a tailpipe are not only deluded, they just don’t really care that much about what their words mean to other folks.

    So shut up already, it’s NOT A HYBRID!!!!


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    Charlie H

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:50 pm)

    EricLG: ok, help me out here. Is the Prius a HV ?The Prius PHV has the exact same architecture as the Prius, but a bigger traction battery and a tweaked M/G1 that spins faster. What is this car in your opinion ? Just remember, this car drives 14 miles EV after a charge, and then goes into a CS mode. No, this is not conjecture — the cars are running around as we speak, and multiple daily reports are filed daily.  (Quote)

    What’s a good source for info on the PHEV Prius? I haven’t read much about it, lately, and daily reports from users would be very interesting.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:51 pm)

    Arguments which compare exiting vehicles (hybrid or no) with the Volt have to be adjusted for the fact that the upcoming 2011 model is it’s first iteration. One has to ask what things like cost, mpg, numbers and penetration will be like when the voltec drive train has been on the road for as long as some of these other cars. One then has to ask where some of these other cars will be at that time …


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    Loboc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:52 pm)

    Impulse power: Impulse power

    Impulse Power = 1701a?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:53 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: These are some of the cycles EPA run to get the combined MPG. I think Volt’s 40 miles EV range is based on UDDS.

    Thank you! I tried to look it up and couldn’t find anything.


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    DonC

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:55 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: Again, SAE classify hybrid based on power sources of the car (no add-ons). No matter how you spin it, Volt is a hybrid that just happened you can plug in.

    OK. So what you’re saying is that a vehicle that uses a wonky weird option is better than a well packaged integrated option.

    In any event, I’m not that hung up on the Volt being labelled a PHEV. It is a PHEV in my mind. But it’s a PHEV that offers 90% of the benefits of a pure BEV without the range and charging issues. If Toyota ever manages to come up with a decent PHEV that can go 40 miles in EV mode at all speeds I’ll go for that as well.

    However, it just a fact that the current Prius offerings are unexciting to say the least, and the plug-in is lame because of the low MPH and short EV range.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:56 pm)

    kdawg: EricLG, usbseawolf2000
    Why do you vist/post to this site?
    It’s obvious you have no desire to purchase a Volt, so why bother with us that do?  

    SeaWolf has answered before, that he is a Prius enthusiast and he comes here to dispel Prius FUD and unjust uninformed criticism. Volt fanbois call him a troll, but he does not pick fights with anybody over preferences, only over errors.

    I am a bit different, but not by much. Mostly I enjoy engineering — at least as much as I can understand of it. Most of my time on this site I spend in that sub-forum as a lurker. When I read general threads I morph into a SeaWolf type, although I have an irritating habit (have you noticed ?) of calling BS when I read it, and I have an argumentative streak.


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    DonC

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:57 pm)

    LauraM: Thank you! I tried to look it up and couldn’t find anything.  

    The 40 mile range is based on City and Highway. Cold starts are meaningless because there isn’t such a concept with an EV. The cold starts are, however, a major reason why the Volt will produce 80% fewer emissions than the Prius.


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    Nick D

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (1:58 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: The PHV Prius prototype has mix features of Prius II, III and IV. Prius III is $24k.Please provide your source. I hope it is not from what you are sitting on.  (Quote)

    My source was from the dealership where i leased my 2010 Prius, they are the 3rd largest Toyota dealership by volume in the US and I got that from a sales rep that specifically only sells prii.

    But see for yourself….

    http://www.energyboom.com/transportation/toyota-test-plug-prius-canada ($48,000)

    http://earth2tech.com/2009/12/14/milestone-toyota-to-launch-affordable-plug-in-prius-in-2011/ ($35,000)

    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3495 ($47,000)

    http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/73267-jp-2010-prius-plug-in-price-5-250-000-yen.html ($50,000)

    I tried posting this a minute ago with several other sources, but it did not post. I am not going to re list all of them. Look for yourself.


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    Tall Pete

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:02 pm)

    Nick D: As I have said before I am done speculating on the CS MPG until an official number is released, and frankly i dont care – I will only use it a few times per year.

    Ditto.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    Charlie H:
    What’s a good source for info on the PHEV Prius?I haven’t read much about it, lately, and daily reports from users would be very interesting.  

    Priuschat.com

    Off the top of my head, the lucky recipients have included Evan Fusco, Tony, John1701 (the guy who annoys some of you so), htmlspinner, and the site owner. My favorites have been Tony and htmlspinner.


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    Loboc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:04 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: These are some of the cycles EPA run to get the combined MPG. I think Volt’s 40 miles EV range is based on UDDS.

    That doesn’t make sense. Why would a 40-mile range be based on an 8-mile test? I think someone at GM used the ole ’80/20′ rule and figured that 40-mile range would cover 80% of the customers’ needs.

    Plus, EPA hasn’t figured out how to test plug-in vehicles yet. Especially ones that run on electricity for the entire test.


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    carcus3

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:08 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Keep the laughs coming. 

    But don’t you want to learn something — like how to “up your game”?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2i-MJoeVQg


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    Loboc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:08 pm)

    Tall Pete:

    Nick D: As I have said before I am done speculating on the CS MPG until an official number is released, and frankly i dont care – I will only use it a few times per year.

    Tall Pete: Ditto.

    Tritto


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:09 pm)

    The “40 mile EV,” or as it has morphed recently, the “*up* to 40 mile EV” claim is GM marketing. I think it is based on the LA14 cycle, as is the 100 mile claim for the Leaf by Nissan.


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    Charlie H

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:09 pm)

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    Unintended Deceleration

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:12 pm)

    LauraM: In all seriousness, you really need to get out more. If bars are too intimidating, try a coffee shop. Or even a Barnes & Nobles.  (Quote)

    i read my kindle to my prius. she greatest car that can ever be made. all times.

    all prius posters like charlie eric and john and seawolf r awesome. evryone else no good. we sav planet and help nippon to. red sun rise again.

    hav nice day long time


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:13 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:14 pm)

    muv66: People who will buy this car are early adopters of new technology and are willing to pay $33,500 after the tax break. End of story.

    What make you think $7,500 will continue to exist for gen2 Volt?


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    flmark

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:15 pm)

    EricLG: ok, help me out here. Is the Prius a HV ?The Prius PHV has the exact same architecture as the Prius, but a bigger traction battery and a tweaked M/G1 that spins faster. What is this car in your opinion ? Just remember, this car drives 14 miles EV after a charge, and then goes into a CS mode. No, this is not conjecture — the cars are running around as we speak, and multiple daily reports are filed daily.  (Quote)

    First, refer to post you quoted as well as #217. To my understanding, all versions of Prius will INSTANTLY become gas sucking vehicles as you head up the on-ramp to the expressway. This is an INCREMENTAL step from previous vehicles. It relies MORE on electricity than previous versions did. However, this critical limitation means that it cannot be an entirely electric vehicle unless you limit speed. Sorry, by the same reasoning, my current Toyota hybrids (I HAVE TWO) would therefore be considered ‘parking lot EVs’ as they rely only on electricity at that level. All you have done is to up the ante from ‘parking lot’ to ‘around town’.

    Again, to my understanding, if you FLOOR the accelerator of a Volt (whether 50% charged or 100% charged), you will still only be using ELECTRICITY. This is not a speed limited hybrid, it is an electric vehicle that happens to carry around a backup generator. It is more like the Leaf than it is like the Prius.

    Again, COMMUNICATION is two way. Your words mean nothing shouted in an empty room. They only have value if listened to. And if the listener is confused, your words haven’t done ANY good.


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    Like_Budda

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:15 pm)

    EricLG: Priuschat.comOff the top of my head, the lucky recipients have included Evan Fusco, Tony, John1701 (the guy who annoys some of you so), htmlspinner, and the site owner. My favorites have been Tony and htmlspinner.  (Quote)

    Then why don’t you go over there and join in on their little “circle jerk” dickweed?
    Clearly you have little to contribute here, so please go over there and “lend a hand”!!
    .LB


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    baltimore17

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:17 pm)

    DonC: These comparison to gas mileage in a different car is mostly irrelevant. At some point you are excited by, and want, an EV or you don’t. If you play this “I could get X car and spend less money and still get Y MPG” there are plenty of options. Why look at an overpriced Prius? Get a Fit. Or if you want a nicer car get the new Hyundi Sonata — it gets 40 MPG on the highway and will save you a bundle over a Prius. People buy a Prius for many reasons, this type of analysis not being one of them. So why insist on applying it to the Volt? The fact is that from a strictly dollars and cents view both the Volt and the Prius are losers. An interesting game to play is to think how you personally would trade off MPG in CS Mode for EV range. For example, if everything were the same, including the price, would you rather have a 40 mile EV range and 45 MPG in CS Mode, or would you prefer a 60 mile EV range and 30 MPG in CS Mode? Personally I would prefer an 80 mile EV range, and I’d take a 20 MPG in CS Mode to get it, but everyone will have a different take on this. If you only care about the MPG in CS Mode and don’t care about the EV range, then you’re a good candidate for the plug in Prius. In fact why bother with the plug? But my guess is that most people are far more interested in the EV range than in the mileage, and in this case then they can relax about the CS Mode mileage since it’s not such a critical factor.  (Quote)

    In the part of my post that you referenced, the quotation marks were to link to the context of the poster that I was referencing. Nothing more than that. My comparisons to the Prius were drawn from that context.

    All of what you say in this post is reasonable.

    In my case, I really don’t care what the CS mileage is. The daily commute, including after work errands, will never exceed the Volt’s battery range. Many weekends, my car stays in the garage since I live in center city and can walk to most shopping/dining/entertainment. The occasional 80 mile round trip to Washington, 120 mile round trip to Frederick, or 200 mile round trip to Philly will just about be my total reason to consume any gas at all.

    So why do I keep battling the misconceptions over the use of the CS mileage rating since I’ll almost never use any gasoline in the Volt? It’s because a tragic number of posters seem to think that the instant the engine fires up at 40.1 miles into a daily drive, their entire day’s fuel consumption immediately becomes 27 MPG (or 35 or 40 or whatever people imagine the CS number to be). “If you drive more than 40 miles a day, you’re better off buying a Prius/Leaf/Jetta TDI.” Sigh. And sigh again.

    I also agree with your observation that people buy what they want for whatever reason. I know the Volt and Prius come up dollars & cents losers against fuel cost savings unless you keep them forever. In my case, I place a high value on the lives we’ve lost fighting to maintain global petroleum security. In my particular case, the Volt will consume so little gasoline that it could be sustained by domestic sources. And I can afford that.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:19 pm)

    CookJ: The gas savings will be way greater in a Volt than a Plug in Prius.  

    That’s not what we are seeing from the real-world PHV Prius numbers and Volt’s lifetime MPGs from the video or GM’s powerpoint.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:21 pm)

    EricLG: The “40 mile EV,” or as it has morphed recently, the “*up* to 40 mile EV” claim is GM marketing.

    I find it very interesting that you can latch onto 27 mpg of CS-mode like it was handed to Moses on stone tablets; yet completely gloss-over (or conveniently miss) the indicated 43 miles of electric range showing on the same display. Apparently you’re willing to treat the video as a kind of cafeteria filled with things which you might, or might not, want to bolster your arguments with; picking and choosing. The most interesting part, of course, is that you can project such a confident air of your own superiority while doing so. You are not impressing hearts and minds in favor of Toyota, and should probably adopt a less argumentative tone on this board.

    BTW did you happen to hear the driver’s description of the transition to CS-mode?


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    flmark

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:22 pm)

    Charlie H: I have all my routine service done at Toyota; they do a very good job at a very fair price. I’m up there a few times per year (we have 4 Toyotas), weekday afternoons, and their sales floor is always busy with new car customers. Always.  (Quote)

    Once I read in my owner’s manual that my Highlander Hybrid’s recommended oil was 0W20 and found out that my Toyota dealer wouldn’t use this oil, I decided service at the dealer wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. My local ‘Tires Plus’ service center will put in the 0W20 that the Toyota dealer would not. And corporate Toyota didn’t care when I wrote to them about it. Don’t be deluded into thinking routine maintenance from your dealer is anything special!


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    LauraM

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:22 pm)

    EricLG: … their budget will allow. Is that supposed to mean something ? My income is about $250k a year, my ‘budget’ this year will be $20k for my kid’s colleges and $25k for my household. What car am I buying, according to you ?

    If you really make that kind of money, then I congratulate you for living within your means. I know way too many people who make about 250k after taxes, and don’t save any money at all.

    However, I’m not entirely sure why you would feel the need to boast about it on a public message board…Especially when, unless I’m very mistaken, you don’t know any of the regular posters..


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:22 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Tall Pete

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:26 pm)

    carcus3: Conspiracy guy is thinking:

    Cynic guy would be a more appropriate term in my opinion. Funny though.


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    steve

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:27 pm)

    Obviously the low ca mileage is the reason they have been holding this info from the public. I have to say, a an early volt fan these last 2 revalations about the price and the ca mileage have essentially killed my interest. It’s too bad.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:27 pm)

    “Again, to my understanding, if you FLOOR the accelerator of a Volt (whether 50% charged or 100% charged), you will still only be using ELECTRICITY.”

    I’ll give you two guesses where the source of some of that electricity came from.
    You are right though, during CD mode the Prius has more reasons to turn on the ICE than the Volt. Not many, not for long, and not in city driving.

    If the difference between the two cars is that period on the on-ramp, do you think 99.99% of people will care less ?


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:27 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Unintended Deceleration

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:28 pm)

    Charlie H: I have all my routine service done at Toyota; I’m up there a few times per year

    we lucky. r cars drive selves to dealer serv dept

    go prius

    may look llike ugly shoe to u, but it fit me good. and give jobs to japanees, r friendl;y neighbors. all american workers bad. koreen workers better too. ericlg, you koreen?


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    LauraM

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:31 pm)

    Charlie H: I have all my routine service done at Toyota; they do a very good job at a very fair price. I’m up there a few times per year (we have 4 Toyotas), weekday afternoons, and their sales floor is always busy with new car customers. Always.

    Every dealership is an independent business. Some are better than others. Independent of which auto company or companies they are associated with. Just because you like your Toyota dealership doesn’t mean that other people will be equally happy with theirs.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:34 pm)

    EricLG: Of course they are smug. They drive an amazing car, reduce petroleum dependency *and* pollution, and do it at half the price of what you have to pawn off on someone to make money.  

    Be careful not to mix up “smug” with “satisfied ownership pride”.

    This is what I don’t get. People over here would donate $30k (10,000 gallon of gas @$3) but refuse to buy $23k Prius and keep $7k gas money.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:37 pm)

    LauraM:
    If you really make that kind of money, then I congratulate you for living within your means.I know way too many people who make about 250k after taxes, and don’t save any money at all.However, I’m not entirely sure why you would feel the need to boast about it on a public message board…Especially when, unless I’m very mistaken, you don’t know any of the regular posters..  

    Heh, I wish. I realized I may have been unclear that I mentioned gross rather than net salary. I’m sorry it came off as a boast. Mostly I meant to point out to the car dealer that early adopters often are not tied to the whims of a finance company, although I admit I decided to rub his nose in the dirt a bit. Prius owner demographics have been published (although not recently). Many are buying the car they want with cash, not the car they can usually afford the monthly payment on.


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    baltimore17

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:38 pm)

    Impulse power: Simplistic maybe but you have missed the point. You know the price point of the volt, it is out of reach for most consumers. Another point is VOLT can’t even make PZEV in 2011 model year, my prius and civic hybrid met PZEV 5 years ago. Also when you plan to take the vehicle on long trips EV mode becomes useless and mpg is typical of a average compact vehicle (maybe). I think that will be the case unless GM proves me wrong. Also I researched VOLT and LEAF side by side and right now the leaf wins which i will buy, why because I will get the $5000 state tax incen in addition to federal tax incen also car pool lane access in calif. My net cost drops to about $22,000 on LEAF which i can order in November. NO calif carpool for the volt and ZEV for LEAF and not even PZEV for Volt. I really wanted to be on board with VOLT, but GM has given a lot of reasons for me not to be on board.  (Quote)

    I’m sure you’ll enjoy your Leaf. It has a very nice interior from the pictures I’ve seen, and the light blue exterior color they show is attractive.

    No, I’m not missing any points. The 2012 Volt I’ll buy in November 2011 will cost $41K less the $7500 federal tax credit less the $2K state tax credit less the $3500 legacy GM Card rebate less the $3K for my old car. $25K doesn’t seem terribly expensive, even though I never paid more than $17K for a car in my life. (BTW, not that I need it but the state benefits come with carpool lane access. Too bad about California).

    For me, the only thing that would keep my Volt from effectively being a ZEV is that, on vanishingly rare occasions, I’ll be driving beyond the battery range. Those highway trips will happen so infrequently that I could not possibly care less that the “mpg is typical of a average compact vehicle” during those rare events. See, just because it might get normal car mileage on long trips, my average fuel consumption over the long term will budge barely a nit. And that’s a point I understand.

    For me, I only own one car. Those highway trips I take are mostly beyond the range of the Leaf. Nice that it works for you. It doesn’t work for me. And that’s another point that I understand.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:40 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: This is what I don’t get. People over here would donate $30k (10,000 gallon of gas @$3) but refuse to buy $23k Prius and keep $7k gas money.

    Many of us have nothing against Toyota, the more the merrier, etc. However, if you really do not understand any Toyota hostility you may encounter here, go look in a mirror. It’s you unwanted, militant @$$h0|es who were responsible for most of it (including some who haven’t showed up quite yet, but no doubt will with another typical Tokyo Rose troll attack in progress).

    For my own sake, as a Toyota owner, I can tell you that I’ve purchased my last one (and I’d come to this decision before Toyo adopted it’s new slogan: “Once you drive a Toyota, you can’t stop.”)

    You and some others I can name are not helping Toyota at all, and should return to Priuschat.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:41 pm)

    “ericlg, you koreen?”

    No, but thanks for the nice thought. I am an American Israeli hybrid.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:42 pm)

    DonC: The Prius is a little commuter car that people buy to make a statement about their environmentally conscious selves.

    Again, that’s the perspective from a “green washed” soldier fighting the wrong war mislead by the general.

    STOP putting word in my mouth. I did not buy it to look green. A lot of owners in the Prius community disagree with your statement. In fact, I prefer the look of my previous car the Prius replaced.

    All cars make statement so what is your point? If you think Prius is a little car, Volt is even smaller with half the cargo volume.

    BTW, keep the politics out of this. I am a registered Republican.


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    Charlie H

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:43 pm)

    flmark: Once I read in my owner’s manual that my Highlander Hybrid’s recommended oil was 0W20 and found out that my Toyota dealer wouldn’t use this oil, I decided service at the dealer wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. My local ‘Tires Plus’ service center will put in the 0W20 that the Toyota dealer would not. And corporate Toyota didn’t care when I wrote to them about it. Don’t be deluded into thinking routine maintenance from your dealer is anything special!  (Quote)

    I don’t take it for granted; my dealer has proven himself.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:45 pm)

    I like this one:

    obsolete.jpg


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:48 pm)

    Baltimore17,

    Well said. Personally, in your situation I would prefer a Leaf over a Volt, and rent a whatever struck my fancy for the rare long trip — or more likely take a train or fly. But your position is reasonable, and I hope you enjoy your car.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:49 pm)

    CookJ:
    -Just because most trips are less than 5 miles doesn’t mean you will always have time to charge between them
    -People obviosly drive more than one trip because 3650 miles is not the average mileage for the year.The average mileage daily for a driver is closer to 38, wow that number sounds familiar almost close to 40.
    Koolaid!!  

    You are saying the Volt is a better choice than PHV Prius because plugs not available everywhere yet? $41k gen1 Volt would be obsolete when Gen2 come out at $30k. What happens when the plugs become so common? I hope $20k battery donation to Korea would be well worth it.

    If you are not driving, plug it in. Charge often and save money.

    Please provide the source for your “average daily trip of 38 miles”.


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    Tall Pete

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:50 pm)

    DonC: Get over your fixation with the Prius. It’s yesterday. Move on.

    So true. But don’t forget there are 5 stages of grief before getting to acceptance so let’s be kind and give the prius lovers a chance to mourn.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:50 pm)

    EricLG: “ericlg, you koreen?”No, but thanks for the nice thought. I am an American Israeli hybrid.  

    Now that’s funny!


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:53 pm)

    I forgot to add the smilie. I’m glad the intended humor was evident.


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    baltimore17

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:55 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: You are assuming Home->Work->Home commute is all the trip you’ll drive in the Volt. The insurance data clearly shows majority of ALL the trips are less than 5 miles.  (Quote)

    I think that’s insurance *accident* data. Just because your car gets t-boned by some idiot running a stop sign doesn’t mean it only can happen five feet from your destination. Here’s my WAG on the insurance data: the first miles of any long trip are more likely on local roads with lots of chances to come to a bad end. The subsequent highway miles are likely much safer in the sense of accidents per vehicle mile traveled. Thus, all those accidents inside of five miles didn’t so much cut short a lot of 5.1 mile trips as they cut short a whole bunch of trips intended to be upwards to 40 miles. Like maybe 75 percent of the trips?


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:55 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:56 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: What happens when the plugs become so common?

    If they do become common, it will be the result of PHEV adoption, not BEVs. BEVs are not practical without abundant public plugs, and who will invest in such plugs without a population of BEVs? On the other hand, Volts and other plug-in vehicles who don’t need plugs will eventually make it onto the road in enough numbers for business owners and communities to entice their drivers with an opportunity charge. Whatever you think of Volt, if you want a BEV someday, you owe it (yes, and the Plug-In Prius too) a debt of gratitude.


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    Charlie H

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (2:57 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): … unwanted, militant @$$h0|es (Quote)

    You’re thinking, no doubt, of “Like_Budda” at #237?


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    Loboc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:00 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    $41k won’t work for a lot of Joes. $26-$29k PHV Prius would.Prius is a 5 seater mid-size family car with 115.3 cubic feet interior volume. EPA’s definition of a mid-size is 110 to 119 cubic feet.
    Volt is a 4 seater compact.  

    According to wikipedia, PHV Prius will be $48,000 before rebates (if any).


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:01 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    $41k won’t work for a lot of Joes. $26-$29k PHV Prius would.Prius is a 5 seater mid-size family car with 115.3 cubic feet interior volume. EPA’s definition of a mid-size is 110 to 119 cubic feet.
    Volt is a 4 seater compact.  

    Compare apples to apples. I suppose you think that the Volt will cost $41K forever. How long has the Prius been sold? If the Volt still costs this much in that period of time (in adjusted dollars), I agree that this would be a problem. As for being a 4-seater, the Volt’s future has already been revealed as a 5-seater. The next generation of batteries will do the same job at a lower size and weight, making across-the-back seating a reality. I suppose you think that the Volt will use the same LG Chem batteries forever, too …

    If the MPV5 concept is put in production, the cargo capacity of a Prius will suffer greatly by comparison. No, there’s no guarantee of this, but it is a plausible future development.


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    Tall Pete

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:02 pm)

    EricLG: And most of the PHV crowd will buy Toyota.

    When WordPerfect had almost all the market we felt at one point that they were getting themselves out of the game and pretty soon we all shifted to Word.

    Toyota had the lead for a while. But after the security debacle of last, after this ridiculous 12 miles of AER they will come up with in a year or two, they are getting themselves out of the game.

    Time to crown a new leader.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:04 pm)

    Charlie H:
    You’re thinking, no doubt, of “Like_Budda” at #237?  

    No, @$$h0|e.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:08 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): If they do become common, it will be the result of PHEV adoption, not BEVs.

    This was my exact opinion not so long ago, that we would see a HV -> PHV -> EV evolution. I have since changed my mind, a lot. Mostly because of the realization that most of the ability on a national scale to buy *EV resides in households with homes, multiple cars, and disposable income. That group can be often best served by an EV commuter car and efficient gasser. I think people will mix and match; a compromise car that does both is neither necessary or best value.

    In plainer english: If I can buy a 50 mile runabout commuter EV and an HV for the price of a Volt, I’d much prefer the former.


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    Tall Pete

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:08 pm)

    DonC:
    The first stage of dealing with death is denial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_modelSeems he’s stuck.  

    I didn’t read your comment (quoted) before posting mine (#260). I hate to be redundant. Sorry about that.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:11 pm)

    DonC: Nissan has said that over 50% of Leaf buyers previously owned a Prius — maybe Toyota will be having inventory clearance sales. Definitely need to cancel plans for US production. No need for it.  

    If someone want an EV, let them get the real one including the future one from Toyota or GM.

    You talk as if Volt is an EV and it is not. It is a hybrid design that Toyota ruled out due to a set of disadvantages and went with the split hybrid that brought synergy between gas and electric.

    I don’t know about you but I am all for the production of any car in the US of A. Cancelling of Prius production in Mississippi plant is not that bad of the news because I think they’ll be producing Corolla there.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:12 pm)

    Loboc:
    According to wikipedia, PHV Prius will be $48,000 before rebates (if any).  

    No one knows but Toyota, and I doubt even they have decided. Did you edit wikipedia ?


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:14 pm)

    carcus3: But don’t you want to learn something

    Learn something? From a Prius driver? That’s very funny.
    Learn how to be as ‘smug’ as you?

    southpark.jpg


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:14 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): If they do become common, it will be the result of PHEV adoption, not BEVs.

    EricLG: This was my exact opinion not so long ago, that we would see a HV -> PHV -> EV evolution. I have since changed my mind, a lot. Mostly because of the realization that most of the ability on a national scale to buy *EV resides in households with homes, multiple cars, and disposable income. That group can be often best served by an EV commuter car and efficient gasser. I think people will mix and match; a compromise car that does both is neither necessary or best value.

    In plainer english: If I can buy a 50 mile runabout commuter EV and an HV for the price of a Volt, I’d much prefer the former.

    To be fair, opportunity charging is likelier in an urban environment (through saturation of electrical circuits and short ranges, if nothing else); however, it is not a large number of drivers who can operate a vehicle in such an environment. Where do you park it? With traffic some places, is it faster to walk? Depending on the city, there may be good public transportation available.

    For much of America, an engine will be needed (whether on-board or in another vehicle) to cope with longer ranges. In about five years, the economics isn’t going to be the same, and an EREV or PHEV will make more sense than maintaining two types of car (and will have greater utility in more places than both).

    Bottom line: if you’re willing to wait for the seed to germinate and grow, we’ll see which approach makes the most shade.


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    carcus1

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:19 pm)

    CorvetteGuy:
    Learn something? From a Prius driver? That’s very funny.
    Learn how to be as ’smug’ as you?  

    Once again, your stereotyping is way off target.

    I’ve never owned a Toyota.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:21 pm)

    Back to today’s topic: The video from AOL.com !

    I think I was more amazed that AOL has its own automotive journalist. And the guy is good.
    I hope they produce more VOLT reviews in November.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:23 pm)

    Oh, I’ll be driving EV before 99% of the population, I assure you. PV is going up next month at my home, and I am sizing it for 10k EV miles a year.

    However, the EV driving will be from an EV, not a PHV. Our Prius will be for out of the city trips. I try to match the best tool for the job, and I see no reason to lug around an ICE, unused, every day, when I can just take the other car when needed. I also appreciate keeping the price difference in my wallet.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:24 pm)

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    Unintended Deceleration

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:25 pm)

    EricLG: “ericlg, you koreen?”No, but thanks for the nice thought. I am an American Israeli hybrid.  (Quote)

    thanks u for making world a Better Place.

    ha me punny 2


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    Nick D

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:28 pm)

    EricLG: International pricing tells you nothing about US pricing. Toyota is tight-lipped on pricing until cars are days from ability to order, so *anything* you read now is wild speculation.  (Quote)

    If everything is wild speculation then why are others telling me that the information I had was wrong. I was simply providing the source of my information as requested. In the links posted only 1 was for Japan ($50k and 1 for CAN $48K) The other two were priced for USDM.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:28 pm)

    EricLG: However, the EV driving will be from an EV, not a PHV. Our Prius will be for out of the city trips. I try to match the best tool for the job, and I see no reason to lug around an ICE, unused, every day, when I can just take the other car when needed. I also appreciate keeping the price difference in my wallet.

    On your next buying cycle, please look around again to see what, if anything, has changed. Electrification is going through an extremely rapid evolution. What makes the most sense today may not make as much in 5 – 7 years (don’t know how often you buy cars). Otherwise, more power to you (when the sun is out, anyway).


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    RVD

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:31 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:32 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:34 pm)

    EricLG: SeaWolf has answered before, that he is a Prius enthusiast and he comes here to dispel Prius FUD and unjust uninformed criticism. Volt fanbois call him a troll, but he does not pick fights with anybody over preferences, only over errors.
    I am a bit different, but not by much. Mostly I enjoy engineering — at least as much as I can understand of it. Most of my time on this site I spend in that sub-forum as a lurker. When I read general threads I morph into a SeaWolf type, although I have an irritating habit (have you noticed ?) of calling BS when I read it, and I have an argumentative streak.

    I can respect engineering, i’m an EE, but it doesn’t make any sense to try to be the Prius Police. I have no desire to go to a Toyota Prius site and defend the Chevy Volt. Feeding into the arguments isn’t constructive. Sticking to the engineering is probably best, and the more objectional the better.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:35 pm)

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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:38 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    Volt only use half the powertrain in the first 40 City / 30 Highway miles. That is hurting the Volt because electric drivetrain needs to be beefed up and it is very expensive. The gas engine that could connect to the wheels is just a sitting duck getting a free piggy-back ride. This add more load and cost to the electric drivetrain. Therefore, Volt end up costing more.In another word, there is no synergy in the hybrid powertrain.  

    “synergy”now who is in marketing?

    The electric drive of the Volt does not need to be “beefed up” if it can go 0 – 60 in under eight seconds (or perhaps 7, we’ll have to wait and see). The whole point of these otherwise pointless exchanges is that Prius must use it’s engine (or be limited to a low speed in the next version); the Volt does not have to. Here’s a news flash (maybe you can even understand it): GAS IS EXPENSIVE. WE DON”T WANT TO USE IT UNLESS WE HAVE TO. Your protest at having to haul an engine you don’t use isn’t substantially different from the Prius hauling an engine it must use. Toyota limits by speed, GM by range. The proper comparison would be to a BEV, which would need a much larger (and heavier) battery pack to even approach the effective range of a Volt.

    In any case, the first example or two of the Volt will probably have the highest engine weight to battery weight ratio of any which follow; this will steadily change as batteries improve and engines shrink in size and power (even allowing for lower battery weights). This will be especially true if All Electric Range is allowed to increase past 40. What was the unblended electric range of the PHEV Prius again? 12?

    As it is, I think your complaint is overblown, and quite predictable given your past postings here.


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    Loboc

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    Nick D:

    DonC: t the Obama bumper stickers were a factory installed accessory. Haven’t found one yet.

    Nick D: My Prius had a Ron Paul Bumper Sticker… Does that count?

    Mine has an American Flag flying well above the beltline. It’s not a foreign car, it’s a Dodge.


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    ClarksonCote

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    Cab Driver: I saw that video earlier today and did the same CS mpg calculation. I doubt that the 27.3 mpg is typical since that would imply a tank size of 11 gallons to get the 300 mile range on gas. Andrew Farrah said a long time ago that the tank would be between 6 and 10 gallons. GM has also stated that the Volt’s CS mpg would best any conventionally powered car in its class. I don’t think 27.3 mpg would meet that committment.  (Quote)

    They were using mountain mode, it almost certainly dumped more energy in the battery and made the effective MPG low.

    That’s probably also why they had more than 40 miles EV despite his aggressive driving in the video. Some mountain mode charging followed by a little more driving without the ICE on.

    join thE REVolution


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:41 pm)

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    flmark

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:44 pm)

    EricLG: “Again, to my understanding, if you FLOOR the accelerator of a Volt (whether 50% charged or 100% charged), you will still only be using ELECTRICITY.”I’ll give you two guesses where the source of some of that electricity came from.You are right though, during CD mode the Prius has more reasons to turn on the ICE than the Volt. Not many, not for long, and not in city driving.If the difference between the two cars is that period on the on-ramp, do you think 99.99% of people will care less ?  (Quote)

    I was probably better off ignoring you Prius-lovers (emphasize MULTIPLE people doing this). But, just to shut you all up, let’s focus on your pompous supposition, “I’ll give you two guesses where the source of some of that electricity “. You people get on the self-righteous bandwagon in part because you presume that we Volt fans will emit more emissions than you. Guess again, fanboy! You have failed to notice the posts where I discussed the 5 KW of solar PV on my home and the 13 KW on my office. My meter turns backward.

    So your conclusions are 100% WRONG for those of us who make this decision. Because highway speeds dictate that your beloved Prius ALWAYS USES SOME GASOLINE and my Volt will virtually never be responsible for any emissions (directly or indirectly), YOUR PRIUS BECOMES THE DIRTY CAR IN THE PRESENCE OF HOMEOWNER SOLAR PV!!!!

    I should go back to ignoring you all again. Why are you all here anyway? You people are the reason that most forums degenerate into personal opinion sessions. Go back to priuschat where you belong.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:48 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    More like “for every positive there’s a negative,” from what I’ve seen.


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    Michael

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:49 pm)

    Jim I: Paging Tag!Paging Tag!Tag, please report in to gm-volt.comThank you.   

    Jim I, Tag posted this at comment #59 at 8:29 CDT

    Had to skip reading the comments as I’m off to work, . . . Good times!
    Be good to each other, Tagamet


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:49 pm)

    DonC:
    However, it just a fact that the current Prius offerings are unexciting to say the least, and the plug-in is lame because of the low MPH and short EV range.  

    0-30 MPH EV acceleration in 10 seconds is sufficient for the local short errants / chore trips. Remember, PHV Prius delivers consistent 12-14 EV miles. The blending of EV:HV ratio is automatic and you won’t have to mess around with mountain mode or maintenance modes.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:50 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Otherwise, more power to you (when the sun is out, anyway).  

    lol

    No stinkin’ batteries for me. I got grid-tie ;-)


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    Runaway Toyota

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:52 pm)

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    Nick D

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:52 pm)

    kdawg: to a Toyota Prius site and defend the Chevy Volt. Feeding into the arguments isn’t constructive. Sticking to the engineering is probably best, and the more objectional the better.

    Its funny I am a member of prius chat and there was a volt thread going on over there and everyone was very supportive and interested in the product. I guess its only a few that come here and tell us that a Plug in Prius with a speed/acceleration limited 12 mi ER is superior to the Volts 40 Mile AER.

    I think most of the people who own a prius would support the volt, I am leasing the Pri until the volt comes to Iowa, I dont think i would buy it becasue the seat is the most uncomfortable I have ever sat in and it gives me back pains, otherwise the car is great.

    Two great cars, but the comparisons on this site are getting downright silly.

    Facts…

    Volt could potentially be more expensive even though reports suggest the Plug in Pri will be simmilarly priced.

    Volt has 40 Mile AER Pri has 12 Mile speed limited potental Electric range

    Volt gets full 7500 tax credit, prius does not

    My volt will use harldy any gas at all, my Pri would use gas daily.

    Both great cars, the volt is just better.

    :-)


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:54 pm)

    Nick D: Look for yourself.  

    Yea those are the outdated numbers probably based on the cost of the low volume prototypes. Remember, cost and price are not the same.


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    Impulse power

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:55 pm)

    baltimore17: I’m sure you’ll enjoy your Leaf. It has a very nice interior from the pictures I’ve seen, and the light blue exterior color they show is attractive. No, I’m not missing any points. The 2012 Volt I’ll buy in November 2011 will cost $41K less the $7500 federal tax credit less the $2K state tax credit less the $3500 legacy GM Card rebate less the $3K for my old car. $25K doesn’t seem terribly expensive, even though I never paid more than $17K for a car in my life. (BTW, not that I need it but the state benefits come with carpool lane access. Too bad about California).For me, the only thing that would keep my Volt from effectively being a ZEV is that, on car mileage on long trips, my average fuel consumption over the long term will budge barely a nit. And that’s a point I understand.For me, I only own one car. Those highway trips I take are mostly beyond the range of the Leaf. Nice that it works for you. It doesn’t work for me. And that’s another point that I understand.  (Quote)

    I hear you the VOLT is still a nice car and excited for you too I hear handling is incredible and very low road noise, the concept of ER is still good after EV mode, maybe the ER MPG in CS mode will be good afterall, a lot of theories have come up in the post regarding projected mpg and want the real #’s now. Your right definitely some compromises on range and have to prepare for that.


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    Unintended Deceleration

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:55 pm)

    we prius posters may be losers butt at least we stick together.

    gotta go. my pius just left on its own agin


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:55 pm)

    283 postings. 249 references (so far today) to the word Prius. And still, not 1 person convinced to buy one over the upcoming Chevrolet VOLT. Toyota must be paying these guys $1 per reference. Maybe that’s where the $250,000 income originates. Wow. That is impressive. It all makes sense now.


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    flmark

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:57 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: You are telling engineers and government to shut up?   (Quote)

    I AM an engineer, graduated Summa Cum Laude with a Mech Engrg degree. Used to teach Rickover’s nukes for a living. Taught submarine propulsion. I think I know a thing or two about when something is running on electricity and when it isn’t. That same logic makes me distinguish that the true answer for an EV is when it can go from 0 to 60 on only electricity. Volt can do that, Prius can’t. As stated, Volt has more in common with Leaf than it does with a Prius. Tailpipe or not.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:57 pm)

    RVD: “Under 30 MPG in CS Mode” is what I expected from GM VOLT.  

    And this comment is just what we expected from you.


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:58 pm)

    Loboc:
    That doesn’t make sense. Why would a 40-mile range be based on an 8-mile test?

    Why not? You do the loop 5 times. Ever wonder why Volt is not allowed to go on the highway? It is always in a closed loops or coned parking lots.

    A typical hybrid use 250 Wh per mile on average (city and highway). Volt may consume more due to the extra weight. You do the math. 8,000 Wh / 250 Wh/mi.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (3:59 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: 283 postings. 249 references (so far today) to the word Prius. And still, not 1 person convinced to buy one over the upcoming Chevrolet VOLT. Toyota must be paying these guys $1 per reference. Maybe that’s where the $250,000 income originates. Wow. That is impressive. It all makes sense now.  (Quote)

    It seems that way… Todays thread is getting outta hand, and several of the Prius posters are posting out of emotion and not fact,

    EricLG – thanks for keeping the debate to the facts – i appreciate your discussion. Seawolf and other prius guys…. Not so Much

    Go Volt – Im outta here for the day!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:00 pm)

    baltimore17: In the part of my post that you referenced, the quotation marks were to link to the context of the poster that I was referencing. Nothing more than that. My comparisons to the Prius were drawn from that context.

    I understood that. Wasn’t disagreeing with you at all or in any way. I was just trying to extend the points you were making and that quote seemed the best short segue. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): The whole point of these otherwise pointless exchanges is that Prius must use it’s engine (or be limited to a low speed in the next version); the Volt does not have to.

    This is an important point. The vast majority of pollution is created when the car first starts. Once the converter heats up it captures the vast majority of the emissions. So there is a huge difference between the plug-in Prius, which will have to start during most commutes, and the Volt which won’t. Once the car has started there isn’t a lot of benefit in this regard if it turns off again — the damage has been done.

    So from a health and environmental point of view a Volt would be vastly preferable for anyone who needs a hard acceleration or needs to use the freeway during a commute.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:00 pm)

    Nick D: Its funny I am a member of prius chat and there was a volt thread going on over there and everyone was very supportive and interested in the product. I guess its only a few that come here and tell us that a Plug in Prius with a speed/acceleration limited 12 mi ER is superior to the Volts 40 Mile AER.

    Yeah, that sort of thing used to be the norm here. We’ve picked up a lot of bullet-holes since then.

    CorvetteGuy: 283 postings. 249 references (so far today) to the word Prius. And still, not 1 person convinced to buy one over the upcoming Chevrolet VOLT. Toyota must be paying these guys $1 per reference. Maybe that’s where the $250,000 income originates. Wow. That is impressive. It all makes sense now.  

    I’m tempted to think that Corvette Guy is onto something.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:00 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:05 pm)

    EricLG: Stomp on the Volt accelerator, and the ICE will come to life to feed the motor 100 kw.

    Actually, you are factually incorrect there. Before the usable portion of the battery pack is depleted, the Volt’s engine

    will.

    not.

    start.

    This is unlikely to be the case for a PHEV Prius.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:08 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:10 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:12 pm)

    “That doesn’t make sense. Why would a 40-mile range be based on an 8-mile test?”

    So far as I know the EPA testing strategy is not written in stone yet. You can read ‘minutes’ of the committee tasked with coming up with a protocol if you are interested. Honestly though, I don’t see the problem with driving a cycle and dividing by energy used. Figuring out how much battery was consumed can be a little tricky because SOC is influenced by more than just the amount of energy in the battery, but they do it now for the hybrids.


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    Hmmm

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:12 pm)

    I’m sure the CS mode mpg will be in the 30′s for normal american style driving. The serial design setup enhances effeciency of EV mode (and makes the car cheaper to build) at the expense of CS mode efficiency. This will work great for allot of people who fit the driving profile and only need CS mode as a crutch, but for those of us who would be in CS mode more often than not this just doesn’t cut it. I think the PHEV setup will have to be my personal next purchase, unless GM adds a mechanical transmission to the Volt for a better CS mode.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:17 pm)

    Loboc:
    And yet the readership and participation at this site continues to grow. My enthusiasm is just starting to take off!  

    Signal to noise seems to have hit an all time low.

    If I may make a plea – if you’re inclined to use words like smug, pompous, moron, etc., please refrain from posting.

    This site is a good resource. Look at other blogs covering the current topic, and you’ll see the readers of them are much less informed.

    I haven’t decided if I would prefer a Volt over the alternatives, and I appreciate all the different point of view.

    Thanks.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:18 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:20 pm)

    john1701a: john1701a

    Late to the party again, eh @$$h0|e?

    Don’t worry, your friends have been doing a bang-up job.

    As for politeness, I think it is a right which can be surrendered by a commentor based on persistent overall intent.


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    EricLG

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:21 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    Actually, you are factually incorrect there.Before the usable portion of the battery pack is depleted, the Volt’s enginewill.not.start.

    Are you sure ? I may be wrong here, since I have only read non-GM sourced descriptions of the power flow, and of course have never read a formal engineering analysis of the Volt.

    Emissions will be a ymmv. For the Volt, none until the ICE comes on, then ULEV levels. For the Prius, none until the ICE sparks, then PZEV levels.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:23 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    I am only here to defend attacks toward the Prius. There is so much Volt smug that South Park need to do another episode about it.I will not call you names and will not ask you to return to google.  

    No, you come here because you cannot bear to even consider the possibility that the Prius’s days may be numbered. We did not go to your haunts and root you out with an insult and a link to gm-volt. You got here and stirred up everything you’re now seeing (along with all the others except maybe for the late-arriving John-boy).

    If you don’t like what you get here, you are more than welcome to investigate the millions of other web-sites on the Internet.

    And yes, I did google your handle a few days ago, and found several forums where you hang out. And NO, I did not go there to piddle on your precious Prius.


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    Unintended Deceleration

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:24 pm)

    where’s my pius? i can’t find my prius.

    oops it’s in the shop agin


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    usbseawolf2000

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:25 pm)

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    Tall Pete

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:30 pm)

    Up to this point :

    EricLG 48 posts
    USBSeawolf2000 29 posts

    For a total of 77 posts out of 322. That’s 23,9% of the posts. Hum… that must be love.

    P.S. By the way, that’s a fact. And we’re still counting…


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    Unintended Deceleration

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:30 pm)

    EricLG: I may be wrong here, since I have only read non-GM sourced descriptions of the power flow, and of course have never read a formal engineering analysis of the Volt.

    which makes u a volt expert like me and the other pius peeople. ignorance is a blissing for us. i keep likey my pius big time


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:32 pm)

    EricLG: Are you sure ? I may be wrong here, since I have only read non-GM sourced descriptions of the power flow, and of course have never read a formal engineering analysis of the Volt.

    Yes, except for this highly significant omission pointed out by the ever-helpful john1701a (gag):

    john1701a: Good example of misleading. When the temperature is below freezing, the engine has to fire up for heat anyway. Why not take advantage of it running then?

    In the unusual case (outside of the snowbelt states, like Minnesota, where john-boy lives), the engine starts when it’s *HEAT* (not motive propulsion or electricity) is required. I’m sure that the electricity resulting isn’t wasted, but this is an entirely different situation from when there is a sudden demand for more traction power.

    Consider that since only an electric motor powers the wheels, adding electrical capacity with the generator will not increase the motor’s ratings. You get what the motor delivers, nothing more. (And before we get more helpful information from the peanut gallery, the Volt has more than one electric motor; but you get my drift).

    The generator, in fact, produces less electricity than the battery pack. If a brief period of acceleration requires more, it is made up from the battery (with the expectation that it will be restored on subsequent regeneration, or if absolutely necessary, from generator output). While the engine/generator sometimes gets help from the battery, the reverse is never true: the engine does not start until the usable battery storage is depleted.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:34 pm)

    EricLG: “Plus there is the pesky security problem. You can’t destroy gasoline as a strategic commodity by using oil for transportation. You can if you use electricity.”You think you are going to do that with a $41k car that cannot even sit 5 people ? The idea is ludicrous. If you do not mind the enviro cost, just turn shale and coal into liquid fuel and call it a day. All that is required is a tax to match your interests — say, on imported oil.  (Quote)

    Eric, every quote you state seems to suggest that because the Volt isn’t the 100% solution, it’s a stupid idea. Good thing you weren’t an advisor to Henry Ford, we’d be trying to feed horses a ton of steroids or something to decrease travel times…

    join thE REVolution


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    #8 EricLG: The driving tests during EV were different than CS, so I would not try to infer much of anything relying on one or the other.
    Every reasonable route of inquiry points to CS mpg in the 30’s. At this point my only question is why GM (presumably) thought they could do so much better. Or was 50 mpg just a marketing decision based on Prius ?If so, I feel for the poor engineers.  

    Yesterday, you resorted to calling me ignorant. Since it seems that you have lowered yourself to insulting anyone who points out the inadequacies on the Prius as can be seen at yesterdays posts near the end of the day, let me tell you, I am no uneducated jerk like you are. We, at gm-volt .com, welcome anyone to debate the technology behind the Volt and the Prius in an intelligent manner.

    Numerous bloggers in support of the Volt have shown where an electric drive train is superior to the electrically assisted mechanical design of the Prius. The HSD, as I have already admitted is a ingenious design that Toyota has invented. But it is mainly mechanical and has far more losses than an electric drive train has. You made a statement that the Volt probably has one or two planetary gears: the Volt has no planetary gears. Yes it has an ICE but that engine has no planetary gears: the Volt has one less component that contributes to loss. Toyota may redesign the Prius to be a plug in vehicle but as long as it has an HSD, it won’t come close to what the Volt can do.

    As far as GM thinking that it can do better than Toyota’s HSD Prius, you continue to claim the CS mode of the Volt will only give 30 mpg. If the Chevrolet Cruze which uses the same engine gets 40+ mpg, it easy to understand how the Volt will get much better since the Volt ICE doesn’t have the load that the Cruze experiences.

    And about price, the Volt otters its owners far more amenities than the Prius. Many here have already submitted there order for the Volt; they must think that all its feature are well worth the cost. And that price of $41,000 will come down in the years to follow.

    By the way, what is the weight of the HSD in the 2010 Prius? It appears to me, and I’m sure many others, that many of your statement lack substance, often are unsubstantiated or supported in a logical way. I’m willing to be educated so show me the text book.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:36 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    “synergy”now who is in marketing?The electric drive of the Volt does not need to be “beefed up” if it can go 0 – 60 in under eight seconds

    The synergistic 50 MPG speaks loud and clear at $23k. $41k below 30 CS MPG, not so.

    Volt’s battery pack works twice harder than the Leaf’s (mostly due to the gas powertrain weight). It resulted in liquid cooling. So it has 3 coolants to change. It is an over-engineered car.

    If your concern is to reduce fossil fuel consumption, emission but not the cost, buy it by all means.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:36 pm)

    Tall Pete: Up to this point :
    EricLG 47 posts

    Blame my wife. She flew the coop to visit our daughter this morning, and left me with no one to tell me what to do.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:37 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: It sounds like the jury is still out on what the ‘official’ numbers will be. If the AER is 5% higher and CS MPG is 5% lower, it still looks to me that our house still reduces gasoline consumption by 90% per year. That works for me.  (Quote)

    You know CorvetteGuy, you should consider adding a second set of bar graphs to your website/handouts, that shows Round trip MPG’s for Volt commuting if you can charge at your destination as well… That would really hit some people over the head.

    I know where I work they already gave the green light, no pun intended. ;)

    join thE REVolution


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:38 pm)

    Tall Pete: Up to this point : EricLG 48 postsUSBSeawolf2000 29 postsFor a total of 77 posts out of 322. That’s 23,9% of the posts. Hum…P.S. And that’s a fact. And we’re still counting…  (Quote)

    Maybe he is just 1 guy with a multiple personality disorder. But a snappy dresser like this guy:

    caveman.jpg


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:39 pm)

    EricLG: Blame my wife.

    Absence of love is to blame. Who would have thought ?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:40 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: Ever wonder why Volt is not allowed to go on the highway?

    Huh? Volts have been all over the highway. I think what you meant to say was that no one other than a GM employee has been able to drive one on a public highway (Jay Leno on a street excepted). That seems to be company policy, however misguided the policy may be. But plenty of people who aren’t GM employees, including Lyle, have ridden in Volts on the highway.

    usbseawolf2000: Volt only use half the powertrain in the first 40 City / 30 Highway miles

    This is of course complete BS. GM has said that the Volt can complete 40 miles in EV Mode during both the Highway and City Cycles.

    Impulse power: Also I researched VOLT and LEAF side by side and right now the leaf wins which i will buy, why because I will get the $5000 state tax incen in addition to federal tax incen also car pool lane access in calif. My net cost drops to about $22,000 on LEAF which i can order in November.

    The HOV lane access could be a huge advantage, depending on your situation. It’s definitely a downside to the Gen I Volt. But I wouldn’t count on getting the state rebate. A September order date is iffy. A November order date has the proverbial snowball’s chance in hell of finding any money available by the time you take deliver in the spring of 2011. (BTW it’s not a state income tax credit it’s a rebate that comes from CARB).


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:40 pm)

    ClarksonCote: You know CorvetteGuy, you should consider adding a second set of charts, that shows Round trip MPG’s for Volt commuting if you can charge at your destination as well… That would really hit some people over the head.I know where I work they already gave the green light, no pun intended. join thE REVolution  (Quote)

    I have received requests for that. It is coming soon.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:45 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: I have received requests for that. It is coming soon.  (Quote)

    Excellent! :)

    PS – Finally got an order number at the Volt dealer I put a deposit down at near NYC. Really hoping for more details soon. Would really love to have it in November instead of February (their stated window for initial allocation).

    join thE REVolution


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:48 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    The synergistic 50 MPG speaks loud and clear at $23k. $41k below 30 CS MPG, not so.Volt’s battery pack works twice harder than the Leaf’s (mostly due to the gas powertrain weight). It resulted in liquid cooling. So it has 3 coolants to change. It is an over-engineered car.If your concern is to reduce fossil fuel consumption, emission but not the cost, buy it by all means.  

    First, let me clear up the difference between BEV and EREV where battery-stress is concerned: A BEV charges once per daily cycle, except perhaps for some modest regeneration (the iMiev doesn’t even offer regeneration). An EREV must use it’s pack as a buffer for the engine-generator (since it isn’t as powerful as the pack itself). This introduces many small charge/discharge cycles during CS-mode if used. Also, the LEAF’s pack is physically larger, so the stress on any one cell is reduced. So you are correct, but not for the reasons you state.

    As for engineering complexity … are you sure the pot isn’t calling the kettle black, here? What about that nightmare mechanical mish-mash which will doom the Prius forever to use it’s engine for all driving above 50 mph?

    So unwilling to let Volt technology mature — why? Because it might best your precious Prius. Why let the seed sprout when maybe you can argue it out of the ground and verbally stomp it to death. You didn’t respond when I asked this before, so I’ll repeat:

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Compare apples to apples. I suppose you think that the Volt will cost $41K forever. How long has the Prius been sold? If the Volt still costs this much in that period of time (in adjusted dollars), I agree that this would be a problem. … I suppose you think that the Volt will use the same LG Chem batteries forever, too …

    Is the 2011 Volt a slam-dunk Prius-killer? Probably not. It does beat the Prius in several important ways in Gen I, but it’s real promise is considerably farther down the pike. How will even the PHEV Prius fare then?


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    Unintended Deceleration

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:49 pm)

    EricLG: Blame my wife.

    she luckee girl big time. she get Lucky Goldstar


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:51 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:52 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): And NO, I did not go there to piddle on your precious Prius.

    If you see me make bad comment about the Volt, you can join in to defend it. After all, Volt and Prius are just cars and we both have the same goal. Just slightly different ways of reaching it.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:57 pm)

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    LRGVProVolt

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (4:59 pm)

    #314 Hmmm: I think the PHEV setup will have to be my personal next purchase, unless GM adds a mechanical transmission to the Volt for a better CS mode.

    The addition of any mechanical device other than the ICE range extender will only make the Volt less efficient and will in no way improve the CS mpg. When GM announces the CS mpg, IMHO, you will be pleased. Or will you?; what you say makes you sound like a future plug-in Prius owner.

    As I have said in the past, here at gm-volt.com, the Volt can transform into a BEV at any time. No mechanical addition to the Volt will ever make it any better. Go Electric! Go Volt.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:00 pm)

    Charlie H:
    As I suspected… say whatever insulting thing you like, as rudely as you like but as long as you’re nodding your head and drinking the Kool-Aid, it’s perfectly acceptable civil discourse.  

    But Acceptable Civil Discourse is impossible with you. Oh well, guess I’ll just have to ‘neg and ignore’ like everybody says …

    By the way, where are all the ‘neg and ignore’ zealots, today?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:02 pm)

    usbseawolf2000:
    If you see me make bad comment about the Volt, you can join in to defend it. After all, Volt and Prius are just cars and we both have the same goal. Just slightly different ways of reaching it.  

    I have no desire to play your imagined role on some site you prefer. I’d much rather see you return there.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:04 pm)

    ClarksonCote: They were using mountain mode, it almost certainly dumped more energy in the battery and made the effective MPG low.

    Don’t hang your hat on that. The tester flipped the switch to see what came up after “sport” mode. He didn’t necessarily leave it in “mountain” mode. I think it more likely he switched back to “sport” or “normal,” as “mountain” mode wouldn’t apply where he was driving.

    Also, the battery symbol in that screen appeared to be showing “empty.” If the battery had been partially refilled due to “mountain” mode, wouldn’t it be showing a charge?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:05 pm)

    #338 usbseawolf2000:
    If you see me make bad comment about the Volt, you can join in to defend it. After all, Volt and Prius are just cars and we both have the same goal. Just slightly different ways of reaching it.  

    The Volt will do a far better job at meeting those goals; it will reduce the use of petroleum at a much faster rate than the current Prius can. That’s not to say that the Prius doesn’t make a contribution to that goal. It will be far easier for GM to change the Volt into a BEV than Toyota changing the Prius into one.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:06 pm)

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:12 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: Numerous bloggers in support of the Volt have shown where an electric drive train is superior to the electrically assisted mechanical design of the Prius. The HSD, as I have already admitted is a ingenious design that Toyota has invented. But it is mainly mechanical and has far more losses than an electric drive train has.

    Then the CS mileage would demonstrate the superiority of the Volt drivetrain. Curiously, GM does not reveal this figure.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:14 pm)

    Unintended Deceleration: where’s my pius? i can’t find my prius.oops it’s in the shop agin  (Quote)

    Check TrueDelta.com for the facts on Prius reliability. Be prepared to have yourself a good cry. CR works, too, of course, but TD is more current.


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    neutron

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:19 pm)

    mark wagner: I don’t understand how GM wants to get the first 40 miles for free in a fuel effiency metric. Although electricty may be domestic and relatively inexpensive, it certainly does cause global warming emissions and consume energy resources to generate.Vehicles need to be efficient, not just electric. I certainly hope that the Volt will do much better than 30 mpg in CS mode.  

    You are right.
    Efficiency is as important as reducing the amount of foreign oil we import. Both goals are better for our country, our environment, and our pocketbooks


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:22 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): No, you come here because you cannot bear to even consider the possibility that the Prius’s days may be numbered. We did not go to your haunts and root you out with an insult and a link to gm-volt. You got here and stirred up everything you’re now seeing (along with all the others except maybe for the late-arriving John-boy).If you don’t like what you get here, you are more than welcome to investigate the millions of other web-sites on the Internet.And yes, I did google your handle a few days ago, and found several forums where you hang out. And NO, I did not go there to piddle on your precious Prius.  (Quote)

    To usbseawolf2000: (above comment plus another)

    If we draw another parallel, it would be like taking a bible and preaching the gospel on a downtown Tehran street corner. Not only could the consequences threaten life and limb, the message is unlikely to reach anyone within earshot as the shouting back in your direction would certainly drown out your message. Regardless of any value your message might have, its delivery in the chosen venue is counterproductive.

    As previously stated, communication is TWO WAY. If no one is listening, you are talking to yourself. No one here has gone to your blessed Prius haunts and lambasted what you hold near and dear. Do unto others…


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:25 pm)

    Since Tag is obviously still at work, I will try to pick up the slogan for him:

    PDNFTT!!!!!

    A very wise man once told me that you can’t change someone’s mind once they have decided they are right. So please do not waste your time trying….

    There are VERY strong feelings on both (make that three) sides here:

    Leaf defenders say that they will buy a Leaf for daily driving and a second car for long trips and that is the best idea.

    Prius defenders say that they have the best design based on real world experience.

    Volt defenders say that the EREV design makes the most sense because it has the advantage of the Leaf without needing a second car, and is a better design than the Prius because is can actually drive a “normal” daily commute without needing any gasoline.

    I am going to repeat what I said about 225 posts ago….

    Buy what you feel is right for you and your needs!

    I test drove a Prius. I hated it. I don’t care if it got 100 mpg. I would not spend my money on it. I think the Leaf is truly ugly and the range is not sufficient. That is my opinion on those vehicles. It does not mean those cars are junk, it just means I would not buy them. If a manufacturer produces a stylish BEV with a “real” range of 150 miles and priced no higher than the Volt, I would give it serious consideration, as we already have a second car, and that range would work perfectly for me without anxiety. But for me as of today, the only electric vehicle that will drastically reduce my use of gasoline, and has the style, performance, options, and coolness factor is the Volt. Will that be the same decision for my next car in 2020? Probably not.

    What is different in what I am saying from some of the other posters here, is that this is what I need. I am not telling you what you should buy for yourselves. It is none of my business.

    And let’s not forget that if ANY of these cars were perfect, then the other manufacturers would go out of business. But I think we all know that is not the case. The Volt, Leaf, and Prius will all sell very well. And in the end, isn’t that a good thing for everyone and the planet?

    JMHO

    I am getting of the soap box now.

    “See” you all tomorrow…..


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:25 pm)

    350 posts of mostly Prius crap. The Toyota boys are rolling in cash today!


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: In fact, I am against the motive of the Volt. I dislike the car designed to gain “green creed”.

    So do I detect philosophical differences, instead of engineering ones? If you cannot accept that the Prius is, primarily, a “green cred” car for Toyota, I’d suggest you get tested for color-blindness. (What about all those ads for it where a world made of happy babies dressed in green, under a sun made of happy babies cheer the Prius past a waterfall made of happy babies?) You do know that Toyota makes giant trucks and SUVs also?

    usbseawolf2000: As I said 3 years ago (you can google it btw). If the Volt come out in 2015-2020, it would be a success. It is the right car but at the wrong time with the wrong price. That’s because Lithium will mature more and battery prices will be much lower to make 40 EV miles affordable.

    This could have a lot to do with the limited initial numbers. GM may very well agree with you. However, it needed the Volt post-haste because of it’s financial woes. In this view, their strategy double-backfired, in that the serious push for Volt actually had an effect on Li-Ion battery development (to the point that even Toyota reversed itself at the highest levels to favor it for it’s PHEV version of the Prius). So, even if GM had less than pure motives behind the Volt, it has apparently started a wave it’s own which even GM (or Toyota) is now powerless to stop.

    usbseawolf2000: Volt and Prius are not apple to apple. They are in two different classes. Both cars will change over generations. Remember, there are Fuel Cell HSDs. It is not limited to just gas-electric.

    A lot of people here would cheer a Voltec offering based on other power sources. At the moment, Toyota has the deeper pockets; or perhaps we’d be hearing about these kinds of designs from GM.

    Thanks for admitting that Prius and Volt are in different classes. It sure didn’t sound like this was your position earlier today. I agree completely. No, really.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:33 pm)

    #348 neutron:
    You are right.
    Efficiency is as important as reducing the amount of foreign oil we import.Both goals are better for our country, our environment, and our pocketbooks  

    If you read most of the blogs today, you may have seen my comment on the Cruze. It uses the same ICE that’s in the Volt and it gets +40 mpg. The load that the generator in the Volt puts on its ICE is far far less than the load that the Cruze engine experiences so we expect to see a much better mpg in CS mode.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
    P.S. Do you see how the Volt will use little gasoline for 75% of the driving population. Don’t you?


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:40 pm)

    flmark: If we draw another parallel, it would be like taking a bible and preaching the gospel on a downtown Tehran street corner. Not only could the consequences threaten life and limb, the message is unlikely to reach anyone within earshot as the shouting back in your direction would certainly drown out your message.

    Yes, it’s exactly like that around here. Doesn’t mean the dissenters shouldn’t tell the truth.

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): But Acceptable Civil Discourse is impossible with you. Oh well, guess I’ll just have to ‘neg and ignore’ like everybody says … By the way, where are all the ‘neg and ignore’ zealots, today?  (Quote)

    Oh? Was I rude? Vulgar? Insulting? No, no and no.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:43 pm)

    Charlie H: Oh? Was I rude? Vulgar? Insulting? No, no and no.

    On average, over your career here? Yes, yes and yes.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:45 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: The Volt will do a far better job at meeting those goals; it will reduce the use of petroleum at a much faster rate than the current Prius can.

    Per car, this is true. However, with the Volt priced at $41K and supplied in such limited quantities, the Prius’ contribution will continue to dwarf the Volt’s contribution for some years to come. The introduction of the PHEV Prius will increase this gap. If Toyota introduces EVs with more range, that will increase the gap again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:49 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: If you read most of the blogs today, you may have seen my comment on the Cruze. It uses the same ICE that’s in the Volt and it gets +40 mpg. The load that the generator in the Volt puts on its ICE is far far less than the load that the Cruze engine experiences so we expect to see a much better mpg in CS mode.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.P.S. Do you see how the Volt will use little gasoline for 75% of the driving population. Don’t you?  (Quote)

    Umm… no. There’s 160 million cars on the road in the US today. By the end of 2011, there will be about 12K Volts on the road. That’s 0.0075% of the driving population.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:53 pm)

    Charlie H: Per car, this is true. However, with the Volt priced at $41K and supplied in such limited quantities, the Prius’ contribution will continue to dwarf the Volt’s contribution for some years to come.

    Emphasis mine.

    Is this the first hint of dawn? The first crack of doom? is the H-man beginning to weaken?!!

    Well, I can pretend, can’t I?

    Charlie H: The introduction of the PHEV Prius will increase this gap.

    All too briefly. It will beat Gen III Volt to market by a couple of years. After that … well…

    Charlie H: If Toyota introduces EVs with more range, that will increase the gap again.

    Big “If.” Japanese engineering tradition will hold to the Prius for as long as possible, limited EV power and all. In a largely desperation bid, they will probably enlarge the PHV pack in a later model. In the interim, other approaches will prevail. In the end, Toyota will have it’s electric car; but it will no longer be a technology leader in the field.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:56 pm)

    Charlie H:
    Umm… no.There’s 160 million cars on the road in the US today.By the end of 2011, there will be about 12K Volts on the road.That’s 0.0075% of the driving population.  

    And we all know that 2012 is the end of the world, right Charlie? (That’s funny, you don’t sound Mayan).

    Maybe you can fix it so that it’s the end of the world for GM but not for Toyota. Otherwise, you’re … um … helically inserted.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (5:58 pm)

    Charlie H: Umm… no. There’s 160 million cars on the road in the US today. By the end of 2011, there will be about 12K Volts on the road. That’s 0.0075% of the driving population.

    And it is incredible how that frightens the Prius guys to no end!!! They just can’t shut up about the VOLT. They just can’t stand the fact that an American automaker has come up with something better. And it is just about 90 days away.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:15 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: And it is incredible how that frightens the Prius guys to no end!!!

    It’s like some haven’t been paying attention at all.

    What are the goals of Volt?


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:21 pm)

    #356 Charlie H:
    Per car, this is true.However, with the Volt priced at $41K and supplied in such limited quantities, the Prius’ contribution will continue to dwarf the Volt’s contribution for some years to come.The introduction of the PHEV Prius will increase this gap.If Toyota introduces EVs with more range, that will increase the gap again.  

    I’m confused by this statement. Do you mean to imply that the PHEV Prius is an EV? If not, you must be saying that by Toyota offering an EV that the Prius’ contribution “will increase the gap”!?!

    If we compare a Toyota PHEV Prius, say the one that gets 12 miles AER, to the Volt EREV with 40 AER and have a large number of people driving them, and all 75% of those less than 40 mile drivers owned them, the ratio would be better than 3 to 1 in favor of the Volt: in fact judging from the video, that ratio could be higher, closer to 4 to 1. For Prius to make a greater contribution than the Volt, Toyota would have to have four times as many Volts sold and operating by Americans.

    If Toyota does offer true EV for sale, all the better. But a Plug-In Prius will not be as desirable as a Volt. 40 AER compared to 12 AER!?! And, surely, the battery technology will be steadily improving. No one vehicle manufacturer will maintain a lead in battery technology for long. Toyota and Panasonic are already talking about a significant increase in range and reduction in weight and size. This all bodes well for the future. GM only needs to toss the ICE and related hardware to have a BEV on the market (very small engineering changes) while Toyota must design one from the ground up. And it won’t be a Prius with an HSD.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Charlie H

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:24 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Is this the first hint of dawn? The first crack of doom? is the H-man beginning to weaken?!!
    Well, I can pretend, can’t I?

    Where did I say it’s a given that the Prius will rule forever? Of course, what supplants the Prius won’t necessarily be the Volt. It could be another Toyota. The keys are “commercial success,” “profitable” and “mass quantities.” At this point, the Volt ain’t none of that. Heck, it’s not even available, yet.

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): All too briefly. It will beat Gen III Volt to market by a couple of years. After that … well…

    Say what? The PHEV Prius is in field testing now. It will beat the Gen II Volt, never mind the Gen III, to market.

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Big “If.” Japanese engineering tradition will hold to the Prius for as long as possible, limited EV power and all. In a largely desperation bid, they will probably enlarge the PHV pack in a later model.

    Not likely. Toyota has already extended HSD to other vehicle types and a bigger battery pack is on the way. Toyota seeks to extend HSD where they can.

    However, they broke the mold introducing HSD, they pioneered the technology when nobody else was doing it and there’s no reason to think they aren’t willing to do something else when the time is right. GM got a big gift in the PNGV program, cashed the checks, delivered nothing except bonuses for their overpaid execs who were otherwise busy running GM into the ground.

    The key limitations are well known… handling high voltage and amperages, motor controls, battery energy density, battery cost and electric motor limitations. Toyota has strategic relationships, including ownership stakes, to keep them moving forward. GM is certainly not the master of their own fate in battery cell technology, which is probably the most important of the keys. Anything GM can buy, Toyota can buy, and if Toyota’s JV partner comes up with something better, it is not necessarily the case that GM can buy anything Toyota can buy.

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): And we all know that 2012 is the end of the world, right Charlie? (That’s funny, you don’t sound Mayan).

    Blame LRGProVolt for being vague. If LRGProVolt has said, “by 2050, the Volt will enable 75% of the population to use little to no gasoline,” I probably wouldn’t have disagreed with him. Because by 2050, anything could happen. I’m hoping for the perfection of the rocket belt, of course, but a GM that can actually produce affordable cars people want that use little to no gasoline would be a nice surprise, too.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:30 pm)

    #361 john1701a:
    It’s like some haven’t been paying attention at all.What are the goals of Volt?  

    Good day, john!

    Haven’t you ask this question before? Haven’t got an answer to your question yet? I suggest that you every article on gm-volt.com since its inception. If your lucky, one of the Volt Fans will give you some clues. On the other hand , i wonder why you would ask a question that you already know the answer. You have been given the answer to this question time and again. Maybe that statement, “It’s like some haven’t been paying attention at all” applies to you.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:31 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: If you read most of the blogs today, you may have seen my comment on the Cruze. It uses the same ICE that’s in the Volt and it gets +40 mpg.

    HIGHWAY efficiency only is misleading too. Another good example.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:37 pm)

    #363 Charlie H: At this point, the Volt ain’t none of that. Heck, it’s not even available, yet.

    And neither is the Plug-IN Prius! Matter of fact: THE VOLT BE BE ON THE MARKET BEFORE A PLUG-IN PRIUS! And we all have seen the Volt perform. As for the Plug-In Prius, others have already done better than a 12 mile AER Prius. Calcars and company.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:39 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:42 pm)

    I hope GM surprises everyone this November by somehow tweaking the Volt’s powertrain to do 0-60 mph in 7.5 seconds (or less) in “Sport mode”. Cmon GM, tweak it so you can get just ONE second faster. I bet “Maximum” Bob Lutz would try to do it if he was still around.

    Of course, most people won’t be using Sport mode ALL the time. The idea with the Volt is to use as little electricity and gasoline as possible. That’s when you put the Volt into “Eco mode” like when you are stuck in traffic or you just want to be in cruise control on the highway.

    I look forward to saving lots of money on gasoline and I’ll be in Eco mode most of the time, but it would be nice to know that you CAN put it in Sport mode and have some fairly impressive acceleration when you need or want it. I want “the best of both worlds” like that old Van Halen song goes. There will probably be lots of people who will want to ride around with new Volt owners next year. It would be great to be able to impress them with a 7.5 second (or less) 0-60 time.


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    Anything Japanese RULES!

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    #363 Charlie H: The PHEV Prius is in field testing now. It will beat the Gen II Volt, never mind the Gen III, to market.

    You must be smoking a crack pipe! Oh! You must mean the Calcars Prius mods. I stand corrected.
    But how many people have seen a Calcar mod or even the pro-type PHEV Prius that is in testing. Do you know how soon it will be in mass production and for sale at dealers?

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:52 pm)

    #354 john1701a:
    I remember claims of “leap frog” ambitions, but that makes no sense with such low volume.I see countless claims of “better” technology, but earning a trophy doesn’t translate to sales.I await an affordable plug-in from GM, which was a goal for Volt originally but isn’t anymore.  

    Your a master at changing the subject, john. It’s obvious that you have no patience. Lets get together in 2012, and see if GM under Daniel Akerson ups the production volume based on huge demand and raising gasoline prices. Ops: I opened the door for another change of subject. Would be great to meet you here in 2012!

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:52 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: If we compare a Toyota PHEV Prius, say the one that gets 12 miles AER, to the Volt EREV with 40 AER and have a large number of people driving them, and all 75% of those less than 40 mile drivers owned them, the ratio would be better than 3 to 1 in favor of the Volt: in fact judging from the video, that ratio could be higher, closer to 4 to 1. For Prius to make a greater contribution than the Volt, Toyota would have to have four times as many Volts sold and operating by Americans.

    Excluding vital bits of information is called greenwashing. Be careful.

    Haven’t you noticed how the percentage repeatedly quoted by GM only applies to COMMUTE distance, not the total amount of miles driven per day.

    As for that ratio, it totally glosses over the reality of driving when the heater is needed.

    When it comes to sales, that ratio is already in just the US alone even without the PHV.


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    Like_Budda

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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:54 pm)

    usbseawolf2000: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Attacking the Prius is just asking for it’s defensive posts.  (Quote)

    Look you retards.
    Half the time there’s nobody even using the word “Prius” and suddenly it’s YOU crazies that start pounding your fists to your chests. (This thread is a prime example, the troll EricLG was the first to bring up the almighty Prius)

    Why don’t y’all go back to your Priuschat forum and suck each other off instead of doing it here,in fact stay the f*&k away from here.
    Go talk about your POS car somewhere else and -Get a life!
    .LB


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:58 pm)

    #363 Charlie H: However, they broke the mold introducing HSD, they pioneered the technology when nobody else was doing it and there’s no reason to think they aren’t willing to do something else when the time is right.

    Charlie, you are right there about broken mold introducing HSD if they continue to push it into other Toyota lines; they will fall further behind. They will be better off doing something else right now.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (6:59 pm)

    john1701a: What are the goals of Volt?

    For one Volt, someday, it’s to run over your mealy-mouthed, sanctimonious pathologically diseased head. !@%$($%)!! you’re such a pain.


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    Aug 24th, 2010 (7:00 pm)

    Wow..nice video and very informative…By the way, the lady in the video…WOW, she looks hot and since she knows soo much about car and the Volt that make her super hot…I don’t which one is hottest…The Volt or the lady.


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