Arguing over the merits of the pure EV versus the extended range electric car rages on, though we are aware and indebted to Tesla for bringing the idea of electric cars to the mainstream and inspiring Bob Lutz and GM to create and unveil the Volt concept.
Now, three years later and Tesla has just launched its IPO, while ironically the new GM is about to launch theirs.
These economic events have led to a number of comparisons of the two companies appearing in the press. A particularly uncharacteristically scathing report comes from Agnus MacKenzie, the Editor-in-Chief of the mainstream automotive publication MotorTrend who took a swipe at Tesla in favor of the Volt.
For all of Tesla and its vociferous CEO Elon Musk’s talk, MacKenzie points out, the reality is only about one thousand $100,000 Tesla Roadsters have been sold, and the much ballyhooed future $57,400 Model S EV exists only in a one-off prototype. Furthermore, only an additional 100 Roadsters are on order, and despite government loans to do so, the company is very far from making the Model S a real saleable reality by its intended 2012 deadline, a mere two years from now.
He even goes so far as to say Musk’s talk of Tesla’s technology being disruptive is really “nonsense”; pure electric cars are nothing new, they were around in the 1890s, with ranges of 50 to 80 miles by 1910. He also expresses some fear about the idea of Silicon Valley computer geeks building cars as opposed to the century-old tried and true engineering of Detroit. ”This is supposed to be a good thing?” he writes. ”If I owned a car that was as unreliable and glitch riddled as the computers and software I use every day, I would be filing a lemon-law suit.”
Mackenzie notes Nissan is already far ahead of Tesla, writing “so while the Model S is still pretty much vaporware, Nissan has already launched the world’s first purpose-built, mass-produced EV, the Leaf,” which can be bought at ” your local Nissan dealership next year.”
Finally he concludes something we’ve known here for a long time:
But perhaps the ultimate irony is it’s GM, long the Silicon Valley poster-child for all that’s wrong with the auto industry, that’s poised to launch a car that may be more significant than anything Tesla is ever likely to build. The Chevy Volt is a thoughtful, innovative, technically advanced vehicle; the prototypes we’ve driven confirm it cleverly combines the best attributes of an electric motor and the gasoline internal-combustion engine. Disruptive technology? Sorry, Elon, there’s more at GM than Tesla.
Source (MotorTrend)
+2
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:20 am)I guess Agnus (Anus?) doesn’t believe any startup can compete against the big boys. Well, I disagree. This is the best time to get in and maybe make it.
Why? Because this is a new industry – the electrification of transportation. Everyone is starting from scratch.
I hope Tesla makes it because the more competitors the better. I hope to see dozens of EREVs, PHEVs, BEVs, and anything else they think of rolling down the road.
+21
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:21 am)I agree but there are still a lot of people out there that have never heard of the Volt. Just yesterday while leaving Costco, I spoke with an older couple who were admiring a Honda Insight that was on display. I started a conversation, telling them I had considered the Insight about a year ago but was waiting for the Chevy Volt. “The Chevy what?” Soooo… 5 minutes later they knew about the Volt and GM-Volt.com
-1
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:23 am)Until batteries are much improved and the infrastructure is there, pure electrics will not hit mainstream. Sure there’s a market for pure electrics, but not many people can afford them……a car just to save gas around town does not make sense.
+5
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:30 am)Seems GM has a better mousetrap. Now all we need are doors to beat a path to.
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:46 am)Well, this is stuff that we pretty much believe in. It is nice to have confirmation from someone that is a recognized expert. I am actually disappointed in the performance of Tesla lately. I would like to see them doing better.
-4
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:56 am)I believe GM-Volt will become the Model T of the electric car revolution.
When Eestor is realized and the price gets back down to $20,000 lots of po boys like me will buy one on Ebay Motors.
+3
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:02 am)Although Agnus MacKenzie is likely biased towards the Detroit Automotive industry, his opinion is one of the first real positive statements I’ve heard coming out of the media. His recognition of the fine engineering effort GM has produced in the Volt has a lot to say about the future of GM.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:04 am)I read the Motor Trend article BEFORE visiting GM-Volt this morning and getting my “fix”.
Lyle, you are REALLY on top of all things “Volt”. Kudos to you again.
Motor Trend’s Angus MacKenzie is spot on.
The Chevy Volt is a thoughtful, innovative, technically advanced vehicle.
+7
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:19 am)At this time in history EREV is the only technology that can be truly used by the mass population. Tesla is a very nice toy for the rich, but it even appears they have run out of steam selling to them. $109,000 vehicle is not practical. Nissan might build a very nice BEV, but as stated, BEVs have been around since 1890, and get close to 100 mile range. Consumers have deemed that not acceptable for 120 years.
America likes the freedom to travel and always will. They want to be able to get in the car and drive several times a year to enjoy other parts of the country. Americans cannot be tied to a BEV leash/cord and need to roam. Americans have established over the years that we need to be able to drive about 340 miles, take a 20 minute break and drive another 340 miles. In some cases they even want to go a little farther to enjoy the spoils of this country.
I have done the math and and the VOLT will reduce about 70% of my gas consumption. I suspect it can do the same for most Americans. If it becomes E85 capable, it will drop it further. While still providing the freedoms we enjoy today.
While it may be noble to say Americans need to sacrifice, the bottom line is that 95% of us won’t. Until the day comes that a BEV can go at least 300 miles, pull into a charge station and be fully juiced in 15-20 minutes, the BEV will be only used by the very few. It will take a radical break through in battery/capacitor technology [ EEStor
] before the internal combustion engine is removed from the American dream of travel.
Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie and Chevrolet !
+8
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:23 am)I believe Tesla will not make it by themselves, and we are already seeing signs of this. When that happens, another large company will acquire them. I know many will disagree, but reality will set in. Tesla will fall a victim of being too much ahead of it’s time…like the Packard car company did when it failed decades ago.
I expect to be the negative champ of the day, so please do not hesitate.
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:36 am)in 25 minutes its less than 100 days people, what a countdown!
im so excited and im in australia waiting for the GM Holden Ampera
stuey
+4
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:43 am)p.s on a side note, i have been telling as many ppl who will listen about the volt and how its so different to any car that exists today, and what i have found is that many people think that the prius is how i describe the volt to work, i.e elec driven 100% of the time with fuel powered gen set backup!. i cant believe that the general public think that the prius works like a diesel locamotive- the mind boggles, the public need educating on the difference between serial and paralell hybrids! most people who read this site get it, but its wrong people thinking that toyota has a series hybrid!
stuey in oz
+1
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:54 am)Agnus MacKenzie has stated to the world what we have known for a long time. Yeah!
” …the idea of Silicon Valley computer geeks building cars as opposed to the century-old tried and true engineering of Detroit. ”This is supposed to be a good thing?” he writes. ”If I owned a car that was as unreliable and glitch riddled as the computers and software I use every day, I would be filing a lemon-law suit.””"
His comments brought to mind the Bill Gates address at a computer show a few years ago. …
“At a computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated “if GM had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.”"
In response to Bill’s comments,
General Motors made the following contribution to the debate:
“If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:
See the link- http://homepage.eircom.net/~nobyrne/ms-cars.htm
+3
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:05 am)I think Agnus MacKenzie, was too hard on Tesla. Tesla deserves a HUGE credit for getting EVs back on track since the demise of the EV1. Yes Tesla has its work cut out for them, but do not count them out yet. It is unrealistic to compare Tesla with GM and Nissan, there are lots of small and successful auto manufacturers in niche markets. Tesla’s original grand plan of bringing out mass market cheap cars has been preempted, as these plans were based on the assumption that major manufacturers would not move into this field for several more years. If Tesla wants to survive, they have to establish themselves as a premium specialty manufacturer. I believe if they want to revive Roadster sales, they should develop a factory racing team and become the electric race car to beat (and eventually out perform ICEs too).
+4
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:05 am)Tesla has no chance selling a 57,000 dollar car that Nissan can deliver for 25,000 less. As has been mentioned, pure EV’s will take off when they can go several hundred miles on a charge and be recharged quickly all over the place. Some of us senior citizens may not see that day. In the meantime the Volt will rule the world. GO VOLT!
-10
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:08 am)(click to show comment)
+7
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:13 am)40 miles (Volt) or 100 miles (Leaf) is a lot more range than just “around town”. That range utility — along with a silent drivetrain, along with rare (Volt) or no (Leaf) stinky trips to the gas station, along with starving petro-funded terrorists — makes great sense to me.
-6
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:15 am)You mean the differences between a serial, parallel, and a series-parallel hybrid. If there were only 2 choices available, it wouldn’t be so bad. But the technology called EREV blurs the lines when PHEV and BEV are mentioned. In other words, they’re all just labels.
We need to focus on ability instead. For example:
.
+3
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:19 am)Pure EV might be the new and cool and also rational, when charging won’t take more than a filling up at gas station does today and ranges will become 300+ miles reliably in *any* weather.
That’s when an additional range extender in the car will *really* become a ballast and worth getting rid of.
But that’s probably going to be in the next decade or so. Battery tech will still need time to develop and also the infrastructure. In the meantime the Volt (and fellows) will be the perfect bridge between the old internal combustion world and the new electrically driven world.
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:19 am)john, whats this a pic of mate? BEV MPG?
“”We need to focus on ability instead. For example:”
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:31 am)It’s all about batteries, the Volt is the best solution for now. GM has a battery lab where they constantly evaluate all new batteries and will continue to provide the best available. Far in the future are great promises, but the closest big step I see now is Planer Energy http://www.planarenergy.com/ They have just received $4M DOE funding and moving into low volume pilot production.
It is because GM sees clearly all the advances, and tries to accurately predict time lines to availability that they are hesitant to jump into a long term commitment for high volume orders, but this is the traditional way to lower costs. LG Chem’s Michigan plant is still under construction, this is a huge investment that may be obsolete within a couple of years of completion. Will LG Chem license Planer’s technology? It would require a completely different production line. All this makes planning for high volume production of Volts or other GM products requiring batteries more difficult.
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:41 am)Both Tesla and GM have their merits. The bottom line is that the consumer will ultimately benefit from the products of both companies.
Having said that, I will be buying a Volt…not a Tesla.
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:46 am)The Volt is a series hybrid, despite all the marketing hype to avoid using this proper terminology. I suppose you could argue that running on battery only is not in “hybrid” mode, but on the other hand hybrids often have electric only low speed operation, so I don’t think “hybrid” means the ICE engine has to run all the time. Hybrid means more than one system and has nothing to do with percentage of time on or off of one part of the system.
What would a series-parallel hybrid be? A Volt with a switch to engage the ICE to drive the wheels directly if desired? I believe this is possible, but this switch is not provided. I believe that BYD is the only series-parallel on the market.
+4
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:49 am)Perception is reality. With just 100 days to go, I’m waiting to be impressed by some thoughtful TV spots. Most everyone here is already sold on the technology and understands what makes the VOLT better. It’s time to educate the masses.
I still vote for Morgan Freeman or Kathryn Heigl to be spokespersons!
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:54 am)To carry on about batteries:
Many auto manufacturers have created alliances with battery companies. I suppose they all have different agreements, but I would have thought to be meaningful, they would have to include some term of commitment and exclusivity or minimum volume orders. What puzzles me is Volkswagen’s monthly announcements of another signing with a battery company, how can they make an agreement with literally every major battery manufacturer?
+2
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:57 am)I never put the Volt in the same category. The Volt is not limited like the Tesla or Leaf. The Volt will be an all around car just like an ordinary car.
If you are a brave one, you could go drive out of town with a Tesla and risked being stuck along the road. At one time or and other, it will happen. Many people including myself, don’t want the stress of dealing with range anxiety. Surveys have already been done on this subject and they show most people don’t want to deal with another unnecessary stress. Life has enough stress w/o adding more.
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:58 am)CorvetteGuy, have you heard anything on the grape vine about GM holden rolling out the volt/ampera on the down low down under?
+1
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:00 am)Tesla played an important role in raising awareness of the progress in batteries, namely lithium.
+4
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:09 am)Apples and Oranges…the more the better…it’s all good…
+4
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:12 am)Wow! That was a scathing report by Motor Trend.
Here’s my take on it.
Pure EVs are a niche market.
Volt is the only production car that truly makes sense.
I can drive across country without worrying about range.
I can be just as independent in a Volt as in my current car.
I don’t have to change a thing.
BEVs have a long way to go to become mainstream.
The Volt can start doing that on day one.
Rashiid’s laws for wide adoption of BEVs in the USA
1) Range needs to increase to at least 300 miles or so
2) Charge time needs to be 10 minutes or less for full charge.
3) Car needs to be able to hold at least 5 people and have good storage room.
4) Cost must be comparable to a similar sized/optioned ICE vehicle.
The Volt is just more practical.
+2
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:16 am)I don’t have inside info like that. I can’t even get the date we get our demo car for the showroom.
+2
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:22 am)Further to this editorial, I poked around the MT website and found a road test of a Tesla roadster by a Motor Trend staffer who largely loved the car, but said something that sums up the biggest hurdle BEVs face:
“… typical 120-volt (wall plug) charging is so slow — it’s like filling your tank with a straw. All this makes me really question the 100-mile range we’re commonly hearing about with the new crop of pure battery electrics (Nissan Leaf, Mitsubishi MiEV). Personally, I’m finding my range anxiety setting in at about 50 percent of battery depletion. The Tesla’s 200-plus miles seems to me to be the minimum any EV should provide.”
Carlos Ghosn and Nissan take note: these thoughts reflect those of the typical mass market consumer.
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:28 am)corvetteguy
I don’t have inside info like that. I can’t even get the date we get our demo car for the showroom.
dam, wont be long tho for your butt is in a real volt. gonna be heaps longer before mine hits one here in australia. you lucky sob! lol
+3
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:36 am)Unless there’s a big change is perception and driving habits, I don’t think BEVs are going to be mainstream any time soon. Yes, I know it works perfectly for some now. Battery tech, charging, etc. is better than a decade away. I think EREV or similar tech is going to be dominant in the nearer term. The batteries will improve, the fuel for the generator might change, and that’s the tech that’s as capable as ICE vehicles. It’s going to stay that way for longer than BEV enthusiasts believe.
-1
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:42 am)Why MT feels the need to tear others down is beyond me. It does nothing but discourage innovation and progress.
Tesla’s technology is definitely “disruptive” as Lyle’s first sentence clearly points out. Instead of whining about what can and can’t be done, they actually designed and manufacture *the* most advanced street legal EV.
You think the Big Boys would have made any serious efforts at all without the first move by Tesla? (not a chance!)
And now the Model S is going to be the only EV that actually has the styling and utility that mainstream buyers would flock to. Sure a company the size of Tesla can’t do it at mainstream prices, but the line will be drawn in the sand, and the Big Boys will have to answer once again.
(actually at $41k for four seats GM hasn’t exactly hasn’t achieved mainstream pricing on a much lesser vehicle – stying and utility wise)
FYI, I have a Red fully loaded Volt with all dark interior on order…
+2
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:42 am)Tesla is a toy for the rich and should be featured in the Neiman-Marcus catalog. GM is starting to build a car that will be available to the masses within a few years time. There is no real comparison. Once Ford, Nissan, and others have their EVs on the market, Tesla will be in real trouble since their market potential will drop off.
There have always been niche and unique EV makers out their. Tesla falls more into this category. Just looking up a single EV group you can find more EV’s already out there than Tesla will produce in the next few years. People can put EVs together fairly cheaply if they really want to get off the gas habit.
http://evalbum.com/
Hate to say it but TESLA is an example of putting ideology ahead of good business sense. The guy is throwing money away on a rich mans toy. EV’s should not and don’t have to cost this much. According to the financial pages, TESLA lost 38.5M this past quarter and 29.5M in the first quarter of this year alone. They have sold a total of about 1000 cars. In other words, just this year alone they have lost an equivalent of $70,000 per car sold.
A typical car enthusiast can build a decent EV for less than $70,000. Tesla is not saving the world, they are simple embarrassing themselves. They jumped into a market without really understanding what they were doing and now they are simply burning money to save face.
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:44 am)Am very surprised that GM isn’t doing more demo day events. Even if they provided just 2 per month the demand for the 2012 Volt would easily be 80k-100k units. And this would steal 1000′s of sales from Nissan. Maybe GM is getting dealer feedback that demand is already over supply potential. What else can be the reason?
=D-Volt
-6
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:45 am)Let’s look at some pertinent facts:
GM is a three-time loser in hybrids. Ford has faced many of the same challenges as GM yet markets a successful system.
GM has a solid thirty years of customer dissatisfaction behind it.
GM went bankrupt last year and has likely tortured their “income statements” into showing a profit.
GM is on the cusp of introducing a new car to fend off the Corolla and Civic, yet it is heavier than either and costs more.
GM claims transparency but refuses to disclose the actual experience of its PR stunt, “The Freedom Drive.”
Lauding GM for what it might accomplish with the Volt is nervy, to say the least.
+5
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:51 am)I could quote from other items today and the same concept ad nauseum-, ‘series-parallel’, ‘hybrid’, ‘EREV’, etc. Forget the crap of LABELS to worry about how to describe the Volt (And I am mostly speaking to the Prius advocates who won’t give up in their comparisons).
Read this discussion from an early post. THAT is where your head needs to be. We need to get the word out so that the average joe can wrap his head around this REVOLUTIONARY vehicle. If you use the word ‘hybrid’ anywhere in the discussion, the average joe jumps ahead and figures he already knows what you are talking about. I learned a long time ago that to teach, you must often use grossly understated phrasing. Good teachers know how to modify their language to suit the audience of the moment. If you want to get the word out, simply state that the Volt is ‘an ELECTRIC car with a built-in (gas) generator backup so that you can keep driving beyond 40 miles if you need to’. This is phrasing that most anyone can quickly grasp and remember.
+1
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:54 am)The main thing disruptive about Tesla – and Elon Musk – is not the products, but the fact that Elon and his company were able to capture just enough public attention to raise a few mainstream auto corporate eyebrows that companies like GM once again took electric cars seriously. Just the threat that an upstart might enter the business and do something that other auto manufacturers had been toying with for decades, made executives begin to act.
I personally don’t think Tesla will make it on their own – I believe they will either get absorbed by another company (Toyota is the current front runner) or fade away once they burn through their IPO money. But I do believe that Tesla was one of the factors – behind Lyle and this site of course! – that has caused a renewed and robust movement toward Electric Vehicles here in the US and around the world.
-5
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:56 am)Less than 100 days away and still we don’t know the Volt’s MPG in the gasoline mode!! I’ve got some snake oil that will cure all ills, if anyone is interested. You had better sign up quick as I am almost out of it!
+1
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:57 am)Folks who want a Versa, Yaris, or Cooper will continue to buy them. When will Toyota offer a plug-in Accord? An EREV BMW?
=Dvolt
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:00 am)“john, whats this a pic of mate? BEV MPG?
“”We need to focus on ability instead. For example:” ”
That’s a pic of a scangauge connected to Toyota’s PHEV Prius. 0 rpm of the gas motor at 60mph. From here: http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-prius-phv-plug-in/83700-adventures-phv-model-prius.html
+1
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:00 am)What is ironic on Tesla is if you evaluate the history of Nikola Telsa the original inventor. He was the real technology leader but Tomas Edison was the business man and got all the credit. If history repeats itself, the Tesla the car company may go in history as the technology leader that really got the EV industry going but will be lose out to other more larger business companies like GM and Nissan. The Tesla car company named their company after a great inventor but poor business man. Will the name of Tesla be repeated in history.
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:10 am)While I agree that he Volt is far more significant than the new Model S, the Roadster was a very significant car. Some people here I feel are right, why did he need to diss Tesla?
I guess you just have to take it for what it is, one guys opinion.
It is good to hear the truth though. The Volt is a revolutionary vehicle.
+1
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:15 am)Anyone remember Netscape? Being in the first wave on D-day is not a prescription for survival.
But Musk is right about EVs being disruptive. Very disruptive. Do you need so many gas stations? Will the car dealers business models make sense? Will you need all those Gulf refineries? How are you going to produce more electricity? And that’s before you get to the expertise in the car companies themselves.
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:17 am)On word: Management.
+2
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:18 am)Exactly right! A hybrid owner will quickly point out that the Volt is just another hybrid and then start bragging about fuel economy. (as we see every day here!) I don’t blame them for supporting hybrids but why denigrate the Volt?
Until the Volt gets on the road, the conversation leads to a battle of semantics and priorities. Gas vs hybrid vs electric. Cheap vs geek vs expense and/or anxiety.
To the general public the Volt is an unknown quantity.
I have bitten my tongue so many times in explaining the Volt mostly because I have been behind the wheel. The game will change dramatically when more people own, lease, whatever and just get them on the road. GM is so right in saying that the car itself will be the best promoter of the technology.
If three neighbors have a Prius, Leaf and Volt in their driveways, the Volt gets the miles and the awes.
Drive the Prius and you need to hit the fuel pump.
Drive the Leaf and you MUST check charge level.
Drive a Volt any time anywhere. Gas or electricity, your choice.
And an excellent drive it is.
+1
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:24 am)I would have thought that some of you would read Motor Trend. The mans name is Angus and he is a savvy auto writer. Agnus sounds like an old lady although Angus does have long hair.
+1
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:27 am)For most of us here, the Motor Trend viewpoint is not a surprise at all.
The car mag tech writers have captured the technical depth of what has
been going on (esp. from the discussions here at gm-volt.com, it seems).
The NewGM pending IPO stock release may have far, far more intended
buyers than anyone is currently anticipating.
The national learning curve regarding Voltec, while slow at first, has now
achieved an unstoppable rate of acceleration.
Most people I talk to about Volt at this point provide their riveted attention to
the fascinating explanations about Volt.
The “Spirit of the Times” has become totally incorporated into Volt and GM.
There ought to be a new promotional theme about Volt being the “Spirit of America”
*BECAUSE IT IS!*
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:34 am)That large company will graciously allow Tesla to keep the first and last letters of it’s name.
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:37 am)I’ve test driven the Volt too, Crew. I agree your statements above sum it all up nicely!
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:39 am)One at a time!
Kudos for taking 5 minutes to educate one more consumer. I have told several executives at GM that this site represents an unprecedented opportunity for GM to simply harness the energy and enthusiasm of 50,000+ VOLT fans. I can assure you, thanks to Lyle and his incredible effort, that every reader of this site is more knowledgeable about the Chevy VOLT than even current GM employees who are not directly working on the VOLT. What other automotive product could have such an instant, powerful, grass roots effort to spread the word and consumer awareness about VOLT?
Go GM. Go VOLT. Bring it on!!!! The world is ready!
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:40 am)I have been looking for the launch of the Karma Fisker ! Does anybody know what has happened to that car or what stage of development the Karma is in ? After a quick Google search I am left with more questions then answers . Thanks
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:41 am)Anyone heard of Mozilla?
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:44 am)That’s an excellent example just of what flmark is talking about. An educated opinion on the Volt goes a long way in sparking the EV conversation.
My circles really don’t talk too much about the automobile but a conversation regarding barley, malt and hops, or potato vs grain distilling can go on for quite a few rounds.
But still, you’re absolutely right about the Volt representing the spirit of the times, that of getting off of oil.
The Volt is an example of what we see as a car representing the “Spirit of America”. Too bad GM didn’t hire Lyle to post a tag line contest here!!
For me the Volt is “The New Power of America”!
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:56 am)I have to agree with Texas. It was Tesla Motors and Fisker Automotive that caused GM and Nissan to finally make the move to create their respective vehicles. Tesla and Fisker shocked the world by introducing alternative fuel / propulsion vehicles that have outstanding performance and didn’t look like dorky moon buggies.
The established automakers have responded to a true threat to their markets from these California automakers, so there is no denying they are / were a real threat.
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:57 am)Not a fan of the French magazine Motor Trend but I agree with this guy.
He may have put his job on the line complementing a American company. Just another sign of how the VOLT is changing things.
Normally MT is completely Anti American as most French are. Try to buy a VOLT in France… after tariffs…good luck.
Tesla is getting a lot of money from Toyota and the US government and I’m not talking about loans and stock options… our media doesn’t say a thing about that…. so far nothing has come of it except concepts costing a lot more than the VOLT. Sort of like giving money to our media to build a car… all talk and no walk.
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:57 am)Oh, that would be sweet! Holden made the 2005 Pontiac GTO I currently drive and it is a MASTERPIECE! Best car I’ve ever had — over a BMW M3, Infiniti M45, and way better than the Lincoln LS before I got the M45. Better handling, great refinement, and incredible oomph. Cost about $29K in 2005. Now 80,000 miles and never been in the shop, even still has the original brakes. And brings stoplight humility to expensive German and Japanese iron on a regular basis.
So hats off to Holden! If they make a repackaged Volt in any form, y’all should know it will be an excellent product.
They say GTO stands for “gas, tires, and oil,” but at 80,000 miles that car still doesn’t use a drop of oil. (Now gas, okay, about 18 miles per gallon on my regular commute. And they’re right about the “tires” part.)
Losing that GTO will be the only sad aspect of getting a Volt.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:03 am)Sheesh!
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:03 am)Anyone remember CompuServe? ….. Yes. CompuServe.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:06 am)This is a great opportunity available here & now, getting to refine your explanation of what actually makes the various technologies different and to point out strengths prior to rollout.
The market will continue to make those comparisons, regardless of their arbitrary dismissal here. Why not address it?
Notice the MPG in this example:
How will you respond to someone perfectly content paying a small premium for big MPG boost? The market is not as cut & dry as it has been portrayed. Detail like this stirs questions. What will you answer with?
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:12 am)That picture you posted of the VOLT… taken by Edmonds? Am I the only one who noticed the rear quarter panel where it meets the rear bumper facia? There is a new ‘vertical body line’ that is very crisp, and makes what looks like a vertical spoiler for the sides of the car. It looks like it would be for aerodynamics. Anybody else want to comment on that? I’m sure it’s not a shadow in the photo. This is something very new. Is that the ‘final design’?
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:21 am)My thoughts (when I first read this on ABG) are largely the same as those that are getting negative votes here. Plus votes go to comments containing the same tired BEV vs. EREV comparisons. gm-volt.com is starting to resemble conservative talk radio – repetitive, single minded, all about the dollar.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:24 am)2411. Ha ha.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:29 am)EESTor=SCAM
If GM believed in EESTor’s BS and was waiting for an EESU to be delivered by Santa Claus, GM would be going out of business like Zenn Motor Corp.
http://conceredabouteestorlies.blogspot.com/
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:31 am)The electrification of the automobile opens up transportation to be fueled by something other than oil and that’s a good thing.
But as Angus accurately points out electric cars have been around for over 120 years and battery technology has barely improved at all. And not for lack of trying. Thomas Edison took a stab at it and gave up. Many others have tried as well.
The problem is in the chemistry. If you look at the periodic table, there are no metals to the left of lithium. It’s not going to get any better using batteries. Maybe the EESTOR will be realized or something else, but for a really disruptive pure EV to come along it needs to be powered by something other than batteries.
That’s why for the foreseeable future the EREV is the only electric car technology that has a chance of working. And the high cost of batteries threatens it’s existence as well. I have severe doubts that GM can get the cost of the Volt battery low enough to be economically viable without tax credits. Not through any fault of their own, just because of the physics of making the battery are fixed.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:35 am)It would be fun to see Tesla make a splash ( or will it be toyota/tesla).
But to be a serious competitor instead of a small niche player they need to get the price in the ball park with the likes of the Leaf, and other all electrics.
Other wise the few cars sold will look nice in the driveways of the big money mansions …. maybe parked next to a historic Duesenberg in the same driveway. Maybe Jay Leno will add one to his car collection.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:46 am)Interesting.. I have been reading a book about “impossible options” due to the limitations of the “laws of physics.” One scientist in France in the late 1800′s indicated every solvable problem had been solved. This was just before Einstein”s theories on relativity, quantum theory, what Tesla ( Nikola Tesla that is ) was working on, nano technology, etc.
I submit as research evolves there will be break troughs and new technologies evolving to make electric cars the dominant option for transportation.
Exactly when is good speculation.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:47 am)It depends on how big your town is… In the city of Houston 100 miles is not enough for me to drive from one end of town and back. Especially not with the a/c blasting because of the 99F temp and 100% humidity. If you live in a small town, yeah maybe a BEV can cut it, but not for me.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:57 am)Hey CorvetteGuy and Lyle: Trivia, I know, but last time I checked your countdown clocks agreed exactly; today they differ by 1 day —what gives?
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:59 am)I believe 100% in the steady progress of technology. And I would never say anything is impossible. But I will say that our current understanding of battery physics tells us that it’s not going to get much better than it is right now. We started with heavy metals like lead, and went to nickel and zinc, and now we are at lithium. My point earlier, there are no metals to the left of lithium. We have run out of lighter elements to build batteries out of.
That’s not to say that some new disruptive technology won’t come along and show us new ways of storing electricity that we haven’t thought of. Remember a battery doesn’t store electricity, it creates it from chemical reactions. That process is well understood and has a built-in limitation based on the chemistry.
Something like EESTOR has the potential to be successful because it actually is storing electric potential and is not subject to the limitations of chemistry.
My second point, is that GM, Tesla or Toyota has to plan and build cars based on technology that is achievable. And for today that is Lithium batteries for 100% of energy or a smaller battery backed up by an ICE engine. Toyota chose an ICE engine backed up with lithium batteries. And with today’s technology, that’s about it.
You can’t base your business plan on as yet developed technology. Yeah I hope there is someone in a lab right now about to have a “Voila!” moment and discover some new disruptive technology for storing electricity efficiently. But I can guarantee you that it won’t appear in a 2011 or 2012 automobile. It will take a lot longer than that. Which is why I believe EREV is what is going to bridge the gap.
Aug 21st, 2010 (12:06 pm)like your laws.. example it took me about 10 minutes to fill my empty explorer at the gas station (19 gallons) . That is what time I would expect with a battery charge or exchange before a BEV makes sense for me :+} Volt is the BETTER Option for electrics.
Aug 21st, 2010 (12:17 pm)I agree 100%
Which is why I say we can’t get there with batteries. The amount of energy in gasoline is staggering.
The Volt battery is 16 kW-h. You can go 40 miles on that battery so people equate it to about a gallon of gas. It’s actually worse than that.
Even if I give you credit for the whole Volt battery it’s not even half the energy of a gallon of gas. Which is about 33 kW-h. Only because electric motors are so much more efficient they are able to squeeze out so much range from so little power.
Think about the Volt’s T shaped battery. It is holding the equivalent of 32 ounces of gas.
So in the 10 minutes it takes me to fill up my truck’s 32 gallon gas tank I have put over 1,000 kW-h into my tank. That would be an unimaginable amount of electric energy to try and put into a battery in 10 minutes. We need a breakthrough in some kind of technology before that can happen.
For the foreseeable future the EREV is the only workable technology for the electrification of the automobile.
Aug 21st, 2010 (12:17 pm)I do agree with your assessment. You go with what got you in and keeps you in the game.
I am just an eternal optimist in the tech world. There are supposedly better “incremental battery technologies” out there now …. AND I would expect any reputable company would do the design and testing needed before they would just jump to the next level.
For example if EE-Stor did have a big break through I would expect a few years before that power system made into a VOLT type car. We all want great reliable products.
Aug 21st, 2010 (12:28 pm)I don’t think we will have our first customer cars for delivery on day 1. I think the Hollywood and Sacramento dealers are going to get all of the press on launch day. So my countdown is not that critical. Here’s to hoping!
Aug 21st, 2010 (12:33 pm)True…
Which is why Toyota has not even made the leap to Lithium batteries. They still don’t trust them. So the Prius is still using Ni-mh. I think they are finally going to take the plunge with the plug-in-Prius if that ever materializes.
I believe technology can solve most any problem, but it doesn’t always happen right away or in the way you predict.
Aug 21st, 2010 (12:40 pm)Hi #13 neutron: Exactly what was brought to mind. I read this piece then in Electronic News (c. 90′s) and just howled.
BTW: Note the first name spelling. (Quote from 2004)
“Angus MacKenzie has done brilliant work on Car in Great Britain and on Wheels in Australia,” said David E. Davis Jr., the dean of automotive journalism and the founding editor of Automobile Magazine. http://www.motortrend.com/auto_news/112_040426_motortrend/index.html#ixzz0xGH5vRxR
Angus speaks facts. Which is the book on Tesla and why its rather successful IPO bodes well for GM. The pre IPO press was much apprehensive about TSLA-nonetheless, it ran up 50% on
day 1. The sole reason why TSLA holds up (~$19) is its move to NUMMI and Toyota alliance. Yesterday Tesla acquired all the equipment inside NUMMI for $15 mil. – pennies on a dollar. Musk gots to get some things right. The story here is VOLT’s acclaimed design recognition by Motor Trend.
Angus absolutely hits on all points regarding production in Silicon valley vs. Michigan. However, Tesla’s invaluable asset is its world-class electronics design supporting EV propulsion group. So folks … don’t kiss off Silicon Valley just yet…
Aug 21st, 2010 (12:47 pm)I love the Tesla Roadster, but it’s a niche product, with a niche-product price. Remember, the EV1 was offered long BEFORE Telsa produced its first EV. If GM could have charged even 1/2 of what Tesla is asking (and people were willing to pay), they’d probably still offer them today.
Aug 21st, 2010 (1:07 pm)Echo Chamber.
Aug 21st, 2010 (1:08 pm)Apparently this motor”trend” guy doesn’t even acknowledge that Volt is inspired by Tesla. So much for the facts.
Aug 21st, 2010 (1:18 pm)The EV1 was a niche product to be sure… and it was the best niche product. I rented one for two days in LA while on Vac… absolutely the best car I’ve ever driven… I think the break even price to sell the car would have been $125,000 in 1996. It was a vehicle designed and built to the CARB mandate of having electric cars sold in 1996… only GM built a pure electric… the very best pure electric. The same engineers who built the EV1 are working on the VOLT… the electric vehicle a lot of people can afford… built on the EV1 experience. I wish the good people of GM were given more appreciation. The many engineers and craftsmen who have made this a reality. Politicians and CEO’s have control.. but it’s the talent the intelligence of the thousands of GM employees that make it a reality. Engineering and industry in the US is the most unappreciated part of our society and the part of our society that will bring us out of this bad economy by actually bringing money INTO our economy!
Aug 21st, 2010 (1:19 pm)Of course the Volt more is more significant than anything Tesla is likely to build as all Tesla makes are nothinig more than rich boy playthings. The Volt will be a car for the masses as opposed to Teslas so called vehicle that only the filthy rich can afford.
Congrats Tesla for pricing yourselves out of the market.
How come none of the eggheads over at Tesla considered making a car for the masses that would actually sell?
And to add insult to injury, both Tesla & Fisker received Government Monies in excess of $1 BILLION DOLLARS COMBINED!! To produce vehicles that no one cann afford!!!
Money from the American People to produce cars the American People can’t even afford.
Aug 21st, 2010 (1:22 pm)Not true…
Cost was and is still very much the primary issue. And that’s for everyone, not just Toyota.
As for making the leap, there are PHV models already on the road using lithium and next year a new regular non-plug hybrid will be too.
Aug 21st, 2010 (1:58 pm)Apparently Daimler and Toyota who are investors in Tesla disagree. Both are impressed and should be that this little American startup has produced a high profile roadster which has catalyzed the EV market. The Tesla Model S is what Toyota has its eye on – and the RAV4 EV project will combine Tesla and Toyota expertise. With majors like Daimler and Toyota partnered, Tesla’s technology and expertise warrants the DOE investments. The Model S will likely give the Camry a run.
Anyway, its all good for electrification. Which is what the Volt is leading transportation into.
Aug 21st, 2010 (2:00 pm)ARRRRG!!
Aug 21st, 2010 (2:06 pm)Well said!!! +1 for you….
Aug 21st, 2010 (2:11 pm)I think the standard hybrid designs will also play a significant role. For example, the two-mode hybrid (equinox? / old vue) could play a significant role in providing a means to use electric grid power for transportation.
Aug 21st, 2010 (2:13 pm)I couldn’t agree with KenEE more…I’ve also grown tired of the kind of journalism that pits one solution against another…we need to grow up in this Country. I’ve invested in Tesla stock and will be buying GM stock as an act of faith. I invest in companies I believe in…so criticize me about that…go ahead…
Aug 21st, 2010 (2:14 pm)You missed the point. I stated that one should tailor one’s discussion for the audience, and right now the audience doesn’t know squat. The introductory statement (worth repeating and slightly altering), ‘The Volt is a (plug-in) Electric car that runs on batteries. It also has a built-in (gas) generator in case you want to keep driving after the batteries are exhausted.’ is a phrase that stands on its own…and here we go again. I did specifically mention Prius people who are absolutely HUNG UP on freakin labels.
A first grader gets an education on gravity by throwing a book on the floor. A sixth grader gets the story of an apple falling on Newton’s head. A twelfth grader learns about F=MA and 32 ft/sec^2. And an engineering student gets to use calculus on the whole thing.
Put your picture away and start at the beginning. If your audience knows more, talk in more detail. However, I GUARANTEE you won’t get anyone to buy ANY Volts OR Priuses if you talk OVER THEIR HEADS. THAT is my point. There is no ‘refining’ of the discussion when you are INTRODUCING a concept. The item I quoted was about an average couple in a wholesale club who never even heard of a Volt. There are MILLIONS of people who have zero understanding of what is discussed in this forum. Assume out the gate that you are talking to one of THEM and use elementary concepts to get the idea across.
And oh, BTW, I am inclined to assume that if you follow this piece of advice, you might THEN keep talking. Fight the urge!!! People only absorb so much in one sitting. If you overload them, they will forget EVERYTHING you said. Plant a seed, that’s it. If they learn something from the first go-round, you can later barrage them with the stuff you constantly harp on here- that so many have grown tired of (hint hint…this is not a Prius forum).
Aug 21st, 2010 (2:17 pm)For a quick reality check, please visit EVNut.com and take a look at the Rav4-EV Owner’s Gallery pages.
Aug 21st, 2010 (3:10 pm)And my point was you cannot do that because the audience already knows more. Notice all the hybrids? They use batteries too. Sadly, some of what they think are misconceptions. So, you can’t just make assumptions. Remember the fuel-cell mess? Remember how small & slow EVs had been? Remember the “230″ confusion?
In other words, state the purpose of Volt.
Aug 21st, 2010 (3:15 pm)The only credit I give Tesla, is that they actually charged what the car was/is worth. GM’s mistake with the EV1 was leasing the car at a MSRP of $35K when the true cost was $100K. GM did all it could to make the EV1 successful. At some point you need to make money. Tesla will probably fail because there just aren’t enough multi-millionaires and billionaires to buy the product.
Fisker? I forgot about them. When is there mass market car going to be on the market?
Aug 21st, 2010 (3:35 pm)You’ve hung around here long enough….you state its purpose.
Aug 21st, 2010 (3:42 pm)You quite wrong about possible new battery technology. You have an anode and a cathode. So yes you have lithium in the anode, but if the cathode is air, then you’re looking at a potential specific energy of 20X-35X that of current lithium-ion cells. That’s a whole lot lighter. Moreover, since oxygen is not stored in the battery, the theoretical density of a lithium-air battery is essentially 11000wh/kg, which is nearly the same as the energy density of gasoline.
Lots of room for improvement over current battery technologies.
Aug 21st, 2010 (3:54 pm)NO THEY DON’T!!!
REREAD POST 2. IT HAS A +20 RIGHT NOW
FOR THE THIRD FREAKIN TIME, THE AVERAGE JOE ON THE STREET CANNOT BE ASSUMED TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR FREAKIN PRIUS OR THIS NEWFANGLED VOLT.
You stumble around in your geek-dom, assuming that everyone else is on your page. They are not. I forget what the percentage is, but an enormous percentage of this country’s citizens don’t even know why we celebrate July 4th. I think HS drop out rates are about 1/3 and you somehow think you can start an intelligent discussion with the average joe about your electric (or semi-electric) car?
You introduce first. Later, you clarify and elevate understanding. We are at the introduction stage right now. As I said previously, you don’t get the point. I suspect you never will.
Aug 21st, 2010 (3:57 pm)The Tesla Roadster is a very difficult car to enter and exit, that’s another reason why its numbers are low, especially with the Model S 300 mile range BEV coming in a couple of years.
Aug 21st, 2010 (4:07 pm)So… for the last 10 years… and during $4 gas… the average joe never heard of a hybrid or was aware that a 50 MPG vehicle was available?
Of what? We are still waiting for a purpose to be stated.
In other words, which vehicles will be included or why not?
Aug 21st, 2010 (4:37 pm)That’s who I want to know about. What is their involvement? A purchase soon? Next generation? To buy stock in GM?
Volt is better than an EV since it offers an on-board generator. That’s innovative. But why would “the average joe” be in the market for an EV in the first place?
Give them reason for that purchase.
Aug 21st, 2010 (4:44 pm)Do you have any idea what a nicely equipped 300 mile Molel S will sell for?
Aug 21st, 2010 (4:46 pm)Stay calm. It’s okay. You are correct. At the dealership level I can tell you that about 75% of the customers that I talk to had not ever heard of the VOLT, but are interested. Even less have heard about the upcoming Chevy Cruze.
I’ve been pounding my drum about the GM Marketing Dept, and how they should get going on this now, so that at launch time, there are ready buyers. That being said, the best stuff I’ve seen lately in that area has been the “Special Advertising Sections” in Road and Track, MotorTrend, and Car and Driver, where it “looks like” an article in the magazine, but its actually a 4-page ad about the car. (The one on Corvettes was really good.)
So, I am hoping to see the same thing for the VOLT and the CRUZE in upcoming magazines. PLEASE!!!
Aug 21st, 2010 (4:59 pm)At least $60k.
Aug 21st, 2010 (5:09 pm)That’s easy: End Dependence Day.
Aug 21st, 2010 (5:13 pm)In excess of 80k
Aug 21st, 2010 (5:17 pm)stuey, go to: http://www.holden.com.au/holden-innovation/ecoline/alternative-fuels/volt
Judging from the presence of this webpage, it looks like the Volt will be coming to Australia.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 21st, 2010 (5:19 pm)Isn’t the base model, 160 mile version $57,000?
Aug 21st, 2010 (5:20 pm)I stopped in to my local (Concord, N.H.) Chevrolet dealer to inquire about the Volt. They say 12-18 months up here before we’ll be able to get one, but they seem to believe that they will be getting a demo unit at the end of the year.
Gettin’ closer……
Aug 21st, 2010 (5:21 pm)Yeah, I said, “at least.”
Aug 21st, 2010 (5:27 pm)He’s upset that the electric motor has replaced the ICE!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:45 pm)I am also in Australia looking forward to the GM Holden Volt as from what I have read on the GM site is what they intend on marketing it as downunder. The Ampera is the European branding.
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:47 pm)Morgan Freeman, I think, would be a great choice, due to his recent science series. Heigl is beautiful, but doesn’t have the gravitas. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:50 pm)Here’s a better question… Why would the “average joe” be in the marketplace for a $41K compact car?
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:50 pm)Off topic: September Car and Driver reports the All-Electric Smart ForTwo lease program is $599 per month. Oh, and the range is 84 miles.
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:50 pm)I think that all of the EV and hybrid entrants should be applauded. There are plenty of kudos to go around (and plenty of market share as well)! Every turn of the oil faucet toward the “OFF” mark, is a very good thing.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 21st, 2010 (6:55 pm)Off Topic: new Volt video – An Animation of How the Chevrolet Volt Works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKpi76RbcxM&feature=player_embedded
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:05 pm)Amen, and whatever other blessing you’d like to contribute.
But as stated countless times in the past, the quantity & speed of which they are delivered is a very big deal. The technology alone isn’t enough.
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:07 pm)Thanks for the link. There is a whole cluster of videos there. The one featuring that Dear Britta Gross is great too. She took me (and my T-shirt signing project) under her wing at the NYC drive. Great Lady.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:09 pm)Huzzah!
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 21st, 2010 (7:41 pm)DonC:
“That’s easy: End Dependence Day.”
I am for the Volt and “American” produced cars with the “maximum” of American content.
We need to end “dependence day” for oil and for offshored American manufacturing. We also need to end the offshoring of non-manufacturing jobs. The “real” issue for Americans is what does the future hold for America and for the American economic system? We have already offshored a “MASSIVE” amount of American manufacturing to other countries, especially China. This has resulted in our being dependent on foreign manufacturing and on the purchase of our government debt by those countries who have acquired American dollars from our massive trade deficits. (The trade deficit in 2008 alone was $600,000,000,000.00 plus.) If the Chinese, and the Japanese, and other countries don’t show up at our Treasury auctions we are insolvent. What is going to happen when the Chinese auto manufactures hit the American auto industry with cars produced at a couple of dollars per hour labor cost with similar technology?
“TARIFFS NOW” on imported goods (And I am in good company with all of the individuals on Mount Rushmore.) Buy America, or bye, bye America — whether imports are better and/or cheaper than American products is “irrelevant.” Americans need to realize that we are in an economic war and that we are LOSING. And we cannot afford to lose it if we want a country. We better get our act together. (Anyone who thinks that we are not in real trouble should read something other than the MSM. (A good website to start with: economyincrisis.org )
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:24 pm)Cool, I have bought 5 cars from Banks… Just awaiting, hope they still have the lease.
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:40 pm)I am right there with you.
Aug 21st, 2010 (8:51 pm)All first year versions of the Model S will be “special editions” with a price tag of over $80,000. Kind of takes the bite out of $41,000 for a Gen 1 Volt, eh?
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:03 pm)I went to the Woodward Dream Cruise today. There WAS a Volt tent. It had two Volts, one a Veridian Joule and one a Crystal Red (the color that I ordered). Last evening (Friday) there were 5 or 6 Volts cruising and it made the 11:00PM news cast (I’ll see if I can find a video link). The drive train exhibit was also there. I thought that I was very clever when I asked to hear the pedestrian chirp, but that car did not have it installed. They were not allowing people to get into it (though a few slipped in while the rep was distracted). It was definitely good being that close to it. I am thinking that most Volt dealers will have their demo unit delivered in time for the official launch in November. And I got what I’d call “new info” on production numbers. The rep stated that the current goal is looking to be 60,000 units for the first two years. I would consider that a further increase over what we have been hearing. Also I mentioned the Pikes Peak climb and that I would love to know how much gasoline they used going up and down the mountain. She suggested asking one of the engineers on the website (Voltage?). She was aware of the secrecy of the CS mileage, but seemed to think they might respond to that question.
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:22 pm)Interestingly enough manufacturing has been a bright spot during the recovery. Even more interesting is that some non-manufacturing jobs, such as customer care, are also being located in the US — it’s a combination of wage rates and currency fluctuations.
By and large trade is a good thing — it gives you access to more people who may be able to do things better. The issues occur more when countries artificially try and encourage exports while discouraging imports. Also some countries like Germany export a lot but they also import a lot. Other countries like China export but don’t import. Very different situations.
The US also doesn’t play the export/import game well. For example, we stick with the income tax which greatly disadvantages us when trading with countries that have a VAT.
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:24 pm)I could not get the link direct to the video to work, but this is a link to the page that you can view the video on: http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/oakland_county/cruisers-are-out-on-woodward%2C-even-though-the-dream-cruise-isn%27t-until-saturday
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:29 pm)I went back and watched all of the videos in the “Chevrolet Volt Studio Stories” series. There are four of them.
Aug 21st, 2010 (9:36 pm)Thanks for the link. It took awhile to load, but it was very nice publicity.
BTW, what was the name of the rep you spoke to?
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:15 pm)Average joe INDEED is NOT in the market…and that is what WE HERE have to fix. Like mmcc from comment #2, look for opportunities wherever they pop up- even at Costco
My father has a BS in Mech Engrg (like me). In addition, the guy also has a Masters in Nuclear Engineering. He recently purchased a Honda Accord. Know why? Because his old Honda Accord needed replacement. Mind you, the guy has ridden in my hybrids (Papa bear (Chevy Tahoe Hybrid), Momma bear (Highlander Hybrid) and Baby bear (Prius)). He bought a new Accord because he was happy (or should I say ‘safe’) with the old one. He won’t think out of the box. I could write a novel, but the point is- most people are not IN THE MARKET for an EV, because they don’t know and/or don’t care. We here in this forum have immersed ourselves in this stuff and it is easy to lose track that even highly educated people are oblivious to options opening up to them for their next car purchase. It is doubtful that everyone will be enlightened, but every now and then we might come across an open mind- and create a convert.
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:22 pm)I think he’s making a case for the very slow start at Tesla which should be very apparent to just about everyone. Unless Tesla can get their act together they won’t be around much longer. On the brighter side there were all sorts of doubters lined up against the Volt, but things are looking promising. If there’s no major glitches in the first 10,000 (and there’s no reason to think there is) its off to the races for the Volt.
Now all the Volt needs is a better name and a better battery.
Aug 21st, 2010 (10:32 pm)In the wild as in nature, the big dog (GM) is respected.
Aug 21st, 2010 (11:18 pm)LIKE !!!
Aug 22nd, 2010 (12:19 am)Ah the Lithium-air battery. The Holy Grail of battery technology. The only problem is that it only exists on paper. If it’s even possible, it’s 10 to 20 years from commercial reality. And whether it’s two times, 10x or as you say 35x the energy density of current lithium ion cells is anybody’s guess.
So what I’m still saying is that yes there could be breakthroughs in battery technology, but it’s not going to happen soon enough for the current crop of BEVs, EREVs, and PHEVs that the car companies want to put on the road in the next couple of years.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (12:58 am)Ah EESTor. The Holy Grail of capacitor/battery technology. The only problem is that it only exists on paper. If it’s even possible, it’s 10 to 20 years from commercial reality. And whether it’s two times, 10x 35x or as the pumpers of EESCAM would say 100x 1000x the energy density of current lithium ion cells is anybody’s guess.
So what I’m saying EESTor is full of crap. It doesn’t exist except for the LIES, LIES, LIES, Dick Weir (CEO of EESTor) has been scamming investors with.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3815
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2999
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:56 am)Thanks for the links. I love strolling down memory lane.
I almost forgot that Zenn used to be called Feel Good Cars! EEStor and Zenn (Ian) have been quiet for so long I am really missing their comments.
Based on your links, I have put together a possible release date of 2011!!!! Maybe Zenn & EEStor can pay me a Public Relations fee for spinning this yarn…
In 2008, EEStor said their line was 85% complete. In 2002, EEStor told Feel Good Cars (Zenn) about the the technology which has been in development since 1992. At that point it has taken them 16 years to get 85% line built. So if they are building the line at approximately 5% a year, it will be ready sometime in 2011
Aug 22nd, 2010 (7:25 am)I think the BAS 2 or something similar like Hyundai is using will be the most practical.. Large cars like the Equinox with a 4 cylinder atkinson ICE plus a 30hp assist motor will give you simplicity, high economy and performance. You could probably do such a system at the same cost premium as direct injection and turbocharging, replacing those features. All electric propulsion is desirable but not really needed.
A single motor/starter/generator attached to the crankshaft at the front of the engine would be my choice.. along with a 2-3kwh lithium pack.. no belts or fancy transmissions.
Keep an eye on Hyundai, I think their upcoming Sonata Hybrid will be very nice.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:57 am)Kind of ironic you use my words to crap on EESTor… I’m not an EESTor proponent.
If you read my blogs I’m saying that the current crop of EVs are going to have to be built using current technology. Not this magical thing that is right around the corner. 30 years ago it was the Zinc-air battery that was supposed to revolutionize everything, and 30 years later we are still waiting for a commercial rechargeable zinc-air battery.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:50 am)@jscott1000 I apologize if I offended you with my post…it was not intended to. I agree 100% with your blogs of the status of the current EV situation.
Anto
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:59 am)All of the eggheads at Tesla wanted to build a car for the masses. Just like all the egggheads at Motorola first wanted to build a phone for the masses. And all the eggheads at Sony first wanted to build a betamax for the masses. And all the eggheads at Matsushita first wanted to build 50″ plasma televisions for the masses. And all the eggheads at IBM first wanted to build microcomputers for the masses. The first round of a new technology is expensive.
If you’re a small start-up, a pioneer, you build what you can afford to build. A billion dollar mass production line-probably not. You build what you can, and take the arrows. Like a boutique build, carbon fiber, two seater. And most likely a company with several billion dollars to spend will eat your lunch when the market is right.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (2:58 pm)Jeffhre, your argument might actually mean something if Tesla was the first. But as we all know, an electric car for the masses was already produced: The EV1
So, when “small start-up” & “pioneer” company Tesla decided to try their hand at it, why did’nt they try to build a family sedan like the EV1 instead of 2 seat sport roadster? Maybe they felt that they would make more money and have a larger market whare with a “a boutique build, carbon fiber, two seater” than an electric car for the masses?
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:02 pm)They couldn’t. No production scale, no economies of scale. ‘bunch of silicon valley engineers that couldn’t get the larger suppliers to return their calls = no car for the masses.
The EV1 was a family sedan?
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:22 pm)How about when the generation II Volt comes out it should be priced around $25,000 to $30,000 that sounds about right wouldn’t you all have to agree with me if you do give me a thumbs up.
Aug 23rd, 2010 (2:34 am)This article is a piece of crap and makes a horrible attempt to summarize what the actual Motor Trend articles says. Saying that the Telsa technology isn’t disruptive technology because electric cars existed in 1890 also applies to the Volt. The Volt is an electric vehicle too. The argument about electricity overly simplifies the break through’s in both the Volt and Tesla’s cars. Musk doesn’t do software per-se, but the concepts of creating software actually evolved from ideas used in Japanese auto production following World War II. The quote about software being buggy is like saying the about industry only knows how to make a better Pinto. It’s a worthless and stupid comparison. Software can be made to work with very high reliability … cars can be made with similar reliability.
I love reading this blog. It’s very informative, and usually well written. But this article stinks of ‘my bike is better than yours’. That wasn’t the point of the Motor Trend article either.
I can’t wait till the Volt comes out and changes the auto industry. I want it to wake up the auto industry. The Volt is the right approach and I want the market to reward GM for getting the trade-offs right.
Pointing fingers at Tesla and saying they might not make their deadlines and won’t sell as many cars as GM … is a complete waste of time. I’d love to see Tesla come up with something more innovative than the Volt and offer all kinds of break-through technology, and it seems like they have an up-hill battle to live up to their own hype. Instead of pointing fingers Tesla our time would be better spent finding someone else that is working hard to improve on the Volt designs.
Aug 23rd, 2010 (4:03 pm)Very nice little video, Micheal. Thanks. (Nice way to end a long 105 degree day).
Aug 24th, 2010 (12:15 am)A car that costs $40k that is guaranteed to have a 10 year battery life where maybe it will make 3-5 is not a good way to save gas. Especially considering that the gas/electric Volt is not capable of operating without gasoline, the Volt does not make sense. Now the Hydrogen Volt hybrid outfitted with Plasma Kinetics laser metal hydrides instead of 10k PSI hydrogen tanks makes a lot of sense.
1) No fossil fuels ever used period.
2) 300+ mile driving range from the hydride system.
3) Refueling can be accomplished at low pressure and the energy to microwave the hydrogen onto magnesium
disks is equivalent to what it takes to pop a few bags of popcorn.
4) Potentially, no new infrastructure is needed if laser metal hydride technology is adopted. Similar to propane
exchange, there can be hydride exchanges. Load a fresh disk, you are topped off and ready to go again.
5) Storing hydrogen in a metal is far safer than trying to store electricity in a battery.
GM needs to get past battery electric and seriously pursue what Plasma Kinetics is developing.
The Chevrolet Volt hydrogen embraces the best of both battery technology and fuel cell technology.
The reality is, fuel cell fuel systems are easier to refill than batteries and the space problem for hydrogen
is being solved rapidly. Batteries are still needed to potentially get the fuel cell vehicle started, or they
are needed to efficiently collect energy during braking, energy that will otherwise be lost. Fuel cell
vehicles in test fleets are already achieving 68 mpge (hydrogen is sold in kilograms).
There is a political will problem with hydrogen. If companies like Toyota can promise a fuel cell SUV for
$50k US with a 400-500 mile range, then the technology is fast reaching a point where the price will be
reasonable. One more halving of this price, hybrids will be yesterday’s news. Considering that the cost
of fuel cell vehicles has been getting cut in half for years, one more halving of the price is not that far
fetched. This includes GM by the way.
Get Obama and Chu out of the way, fuel cell vehicles will hit America’s streets in large numbers. The problem
isn’t that the technology isn’t ready, the problem is that Obama and Chu aren’t ready.