Dan Akerson will step into his role as CEO of General Motors on September 1st. He replaces Ed Whitacre who held the position for about ten months.
Whitacre apparently never planned to keep the job long. Uncertainty about his plans led to his stepping down. In preparation for its upcoming IPO financial institutions needed some assurance Whitacre would hold the job long enough to keep investors comfortable. GM’s board asked him to either stay for several years or step down. He chose to leave, giving the job to Mr. Akerson who was already on the board having been placed there by the US government’s auto task force.
Reports suggest that Akerson is in it for the long haul. He has considerable experience and expertise in running large companies, and managing money. Though he isn’t known to have particular experience in the automotive industry, he is described as a very fast learner and a very driven competitor. Moreover, the halls of GM are filled with endless numbers of car guys and gals, what the company needs is a leader, not another engineer.
Former GM vice chairman Bob Lutz in a recent interview called Akerson “a very astute businessman, a brilliant financier, a great-dealmaker and a fabulous CEO to take GM through the IPO.”
We have also learned from anonymous sources Mr. Akerson played a significant role in pushing for increased Volt production capacity, even though some skeptics point out his current company the Carlyle group has links to the oil industry.
In what’s becoming a tradition here at GM-Volt, I reached out to Mr Akerson via email to see what his position is on the Volt and electrification of the automobile.
In a great sign of appreciation and respect for our work here, he responded.
“I am a STRONG advocate of the Volt and the erev technology,” he wrote. “I think it is fair to say that this will be a top priority at GM.”
Now that’s a relief!
+7
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:41 am)Interesting article about Mr Akerson in today’s WSJ.
Apparently Akerson’s criticisms were part of why Henderson stepped down.
The article has references to Mr Akerson’s blunt and “colorful” language.
Strong leaders have loyal followers. Does Mr Akerson inspire that loyalty?
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:47 am)Whitacre apparently never planned to keep the job long.
.
It’s been widely mentioned that there was sharp conflict on how quickly to go forward with the IPO, with the feds wanting fast and Mr. Whitacre wanting to proceed more deliberately.
+32
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:48 am)I sometimes still can’t believe this car is really coming.. I mean, I know it is but this car really has the potential to change everything. For GM and for the World! I’m not sure we can appreciate enough how big of a moment it will be when that first car gets sold to a consumer. It’ll be great to know that all those big oil conspiracy people are just full of hot air like I originally thought they were.
+13
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:50 am)From the article:
Moreover, the halls of GM are filled with endless numbers of car guys and gals, what the company needs is a leader, not another engineer.
What the company needs is a leader, not another bean counter.
They have had enough of those and failed miserably.
I’m glad to see he is a STRONG supporter of the Volt.
Now, how about turning all of GM’s lines into Voltec?
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:50 am)Maybe it would be wise to get some EVs that have gas tanks out there before the ones that don’t take over.
+20
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:54 am)It worries me all these non “car guys” leading GM. Why? Because GM losing focus on building great cars and instead becoming a bank and healthcare provider that just happened to build cars is what led them into trouble in the first place. They may indeed make more money financing cars and spend most of it on benefits for their workers but they need to remember neither of those things are why they exist.
+6
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:59 am)Lyle,
Maybe your IT guy can setup an auto-responder tied to a sniffer. Every time GM”s CEO changes it could automatically send your inquiry. With the revovling door there, this might save you some serious time:)
+46
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:04 am)As a follow-on to my post from yesterday, a continuing discussion on your utility rates.
As mentioned, I first learned about the intricacies of electrical billing when I pulled my business bill apart and investigated the concept of ‘demand’ billing. PEOPLE, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS, BECAUSE EVs HAVE THE CAPACITY TO GIVE UTILITY COMPANIES LICENSE TO BE MORE INTRUSIVE INTO YOUR LIVES (AS A RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMER) THAN YOU HAVE EVER SEEN BEFORE. You will want to keep a sharp ear/eye out for Public Service Commission hearings on the matter and make sure your voice is heard- not just the utilities.
Businesses typically pay a bill in two parts. The first part, as you are all used to, is for total usage (kilowatt-hours). The second part of the bill is for how FAST you use the electricity (kilowatts). This part of the bill can actually DWARF the kwh portion. The principle behind the demand billing is that if everyone were like you- exhibiting a large amperage draw all at once, the utility would have to build more power plants to create the excess capacity. In Florida, the demand charge is based on your worst 30 minutes of the month. In other states, it is often just 15 minutes! Worse yet, in most locations, if you exceed the threshold in any given month, you are stuck with demand billing rates FOR THE NEXT TWELVE MONTHS!!!
You must pay attention to this because your utility may want you to stick with 110V charging vs 220V. It is quite likely that, in their own best interest, they will press PSCs across the country to penalize EV owners who exercise the option to charge at the increased RATE of energy consumption that results from 220V, especially if done during peak times. Yes, the article yesterday was about some utility acting as if they cared about your environmental and progressive thinking. However, don’t be surprised to see caveats that allow utilities to start implementing demand billing on residential customers who try to use 220V charging during daylight/peak hours.
I started this investigation/fight over demand billing due to my solar PV installation at our business. I actually won my battle with the utility and saved thousands of dollars by getting them to throw out the twelve month rule due to all my upgrades that reduced my demand from (average) 18-27 kw (the threshold for demand billing in FL is 21 kw) down to about 7 kw. [And BTW, solar PV doesn’t do much for your demand reading. I think we are all guaranteed to have at least 15 minutes of overcast conditions at some point during the YEAR].
However, I fully understand that the REASON demand billing exists in the first place is the ‘gotcha’ waiting to catch all of us who don’t charge our EVs at the right rate or time to make the utilities happy. I am all for proper time of day billing and all that, BUT don’t be fooled into thinking that announcement you read about yesterday means the utilities are on your side. I believe residential customers are in for the rude awakening that many business owners get every time they open up the monthly bill.
You have been warned. Whoa unto you if that new meter they install has a number on it that reveals your ‘kw’ usage. In an era when airlines have realized that they can charge, and collect, a fee for your seat assignment (like I was going to stand for the flight?), the cash cow of increased electrical demand from EV users is just waiting to be capitalized upon. Bureaucracies work even more slowly in reverse; if demand billing weaves its way into your residential billing tariffs, good luck getting your politicians to undo it.
[Please +1 this post so it will turn green quickly and more people will learn about this unseen charge sneaking up on you. I have learned that even most business owners are oblivious to demand billing, so I am sure many here are reading about this for the first time.]
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:05 am)Lyle says: “In what’s becoming a tradition here at GM-Volt, I reached out to Mr Akerson via email to see what his position is on the Volt and electrification of the automobile.
“In a great sign of appreciation and respect for our work here, he responded.
“I am a STRONG advocate of the Volt and the erev technology,” he wrote. “I think it is fair to say that this will be a top priority at GM.”
“Now that’s a relief!”
You’re the man, Lyle!!!
/My only concern with his reply is that I believe the Volt design team (and Bob Lutz) all called the Volt <b?THE top priority!
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:05 am)Yea, verily!
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:08 am)I daresay that Lyle addressed your point in his post. Furthermore, were not the “car guys” in charge when the company went to hell?
Clearly, GM’s corporate culture was way too inbred and its board had been coopted by management. Whitacre forced much needed changes. I’m looking forward to seeing what happens next with Akerson in charge.
The funny thing to me is how all the dittoheads call it “government motors.” The indisputable fact is that the board members the Obama administration forced on the company have actually righted the ship and have it profitable again.
+7
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:14 am)Correction to my footnote in #9 above: /My only concern with Akerson’s reply is that I believe the Volt design team (& Bob Lutz) all called the Volt “THE” top priority, not “A” top priority!
…BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:28 am)#12 nasaman Said:
Correction to my footnote in #9 above: /My only concern with Akerson’s reply is that I believe the Volt design team (& Bob Lutz) all called the Volt “THE” top priority, not “A” top priority!
…BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
Absolutely right, I’m sure the 556 HP Cadillac CTS is “A” top priority
+21
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:33 am)I sometimes can’t believe I have a dozen orders in progress!
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:38 am)In what’s becoming a tradition here at GM-Volt,
.
One might say “…a well-honed tradition…., ” so much more than I ever imagined.
It is great that this CEO wants to make the Volt a priority.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:40 am).
You have a really nice web site, too. Maybe that helps a little bit.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:47 am)All due respect GM cannot afford to go hog wild after the bankruptcy. EREV-s time is coming. I do like your enthusiasm.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:49 am)NM, I see your point, and as Volt-heads we probably all wish it were “THE” top priority. But, right now I think that’s simply not possible. Maybe when Voltec is driving over 10% of the their revenue…?
Hmm… without having set out to do so, I think I just made another argument for ramping up the volume!!
In other news… It’s being reported elsewhere (*cough”ABG*cough*) that, according to at least one Nissan dealer (take with as many grains of salt as you like), Nissan may deliver as few as 3,300 Leafs to the USA by next March. C’MON GM… If this is true, then THE WINDOW IS OPEN… EAT THEIR LUNCH!!
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:11 am)Maybe when the public has a demo drive? Any chance of a National Volt tour in September?
=D-Volt
+4
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:21 am).
It would be delightful if gm made enough Volts to run past Leaf, but Leaf is projected to be such a tiny part of the overall auto market that Volt needs to have bigger aspirations. Otherwise it is just a tweetle beetle battle (as described in Fox in Socks, thanks dr seuss)
AND…
When beetles
fight these battles
in a bottle
with their paddles
and the bottle’s
on a poodle
and the poodle’s
eating noodles…
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:32 am)Automotive News just published an interesting article with several opinions and bio stuff on Akerson:
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100816/OEM02/308169962/1432
+31
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:33 am)I find the most important part of today’s post is that the CEO replied to Lyle’s email! I know it sounds like a small thing and is easily taken for granted, but with all the shake-ups at GM, they are still keeping the door open to Lyle, and by default to US! JMO
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:38 am)Tag, you make a very good point. This just goes to show how much Lyle and his public are important to GM.
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:39 am)I agree, Tag! I wonder if Carlos Ghosn ever responds to LEAF bloggers such as Statik?
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:40 am)Ok, then. Let’s get the tires rolling!
These are the cars I would like to see go EREV, plugin, and hybrid within the next 3 years, considering that the cost of the Volt battery today is $10k and the next gen will be $5k.
Volt MPV5 goes into the fast lane for production.
The Impala or Lacrosse go 50 mile EREV. (you think the Volt has sticker shock!, but these cars would be on my shopping list!)
GMC Granite goes 20 mile plugin. (to offer an alternative to the MPV5)
Equinox is the plug in Vuick.
Converj goes lighter weight, higher battery range, lower price and becomes a Buick.
The new US made Aveo goes BEV.
The Cruze goes full hybrid (not that mild hybrid stuff).
The flagship Caddy goes full hybrid (I don’t think too many Caddy owners will plug in for 12 miles EV range!)
There’s a whole lot more but a 3 year turnaround for development and production compromises quality for brand new cars.
These cars should be ready to go ASAP!
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:44 am)According to a LEAF dealer, it doesn’t look like GM needs to rush too much: “By the end of March of 2011, there will have been roughly only 3,300 Leafs delivered nationwide. Nissan initially wanted a lot more (10,000), but decided to launch in Japan in January, which diverted two thirds of the cars. So, of the 3,300, Nissan is parsing them out at a few hundred a month over the 4 months (December through the end of March). They are launching the car first in San Diego, Portland, Nashville, Houston, Tuscon-Phoenix corridor because this is where the infrastructure will be. I know that information is really scarce out there and I think it’s only fair that you know all sides of the story.”
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:48 am)There are three main groups within our armed forces which is what allows us to have the best and most flexible military in the world.
Enlisted – these are the guys and gals who actually do the work. They don’t need to know the whole picture to succeed but they are smarter than those in other militaries.
Non-Commissioned Officers (NCO’s) – these men and women represent the heart of our military. They ensure that the work gets done and done to standard (or above standard depending on the NCO). They see very hard working and creative within their area of expertise. The NCO is tasked to train and advise the officer from the start of their career to it’s height. There is always an NCO that even a General will sit down with to talk to about decisions he/she plans to make.
Officers – These are the creative thinkers who come up with the plans that the NCO’s and enlisted have to execute. They also have their specialties but their greatest attribute is leadership. You should be able to put a good officer into any position with good NCO’s under him/her and they will succeed. There are exceptions that require far more specific training but the principle holds true.
Now, we have a man who has proven credentials in business but not in automobile manufacturing. He has engineers under him who understand how to make cars. The new CEO needs to come up with a plan that allows those cars to be built that will gain GM the most money in the shortest time and ensure the long term health of the company. Based on his resume, I would say that this is well within Mr Akerman’s capabilities.
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:52 am)# 26 Tagamet said:
Yeah, I guess it was silly to think that GM wouldn’t know that.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:52 am)Knowing Statik, I wouldn’t be at all surprised!
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:55 am)Don’t get me wrong, I’m just as disappointed with BOTH companies short-range output.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:56 am)That is Akerson not Akerman :*)
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:56 am)Is it just me or is the frontal view (image at beginning) looking better all the time?
My biggest complaint about the Volt is that it is NOT available in the Chicago area.
When???
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:05 am)Lyle, you’re really in the groove now! Not too many people can just email the CEO of a major company and get a response.
This shows that GM is really listening to us and paying attention.
+6
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:06 am)Thanks for posting this… I made a negative comment about smart meters yesterday and people acted like I was crazy. Smart meters will NOT be to the benefit of the consumer. Once the utilities know how you are using power, they can structure their rates to maximize profit.
Today I have flat rate billing locked in on a three year contract. Electricity in Houston is high… the best deal I could get was 12.7 cents a kilowatt hour. but the good news is that
a) it’s locked in for three years
b) there are no surcharges for any reason whatsoever
c) same price day or night, weekend, weekday
d) same price regardless if I use my full 200 amps at once or trickle
Smartmeters could change all of that. And given the stooges we have in the Texas Public Utility Commission, the utilities will get whatever they ask for and the consumer will end up paying more.
-2
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:09 am)“businessman, a brilliant financier, a great-dealmaker”
That fits a Carlyle guy. A backroom manipulator rather than a leader. Next.
+5
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:10 am)Not only that, but consider that this response comes the new CEO. I take that to mean the following: One or more of his predecessors said to him, “hey, when you hear from that Lyle Dennis guy… and you will… it’d be a very good idea to give him the courtesy of a reply.”
Now THAT’S the power of a grassroots movement.
+8
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:17 am)But if Whitacre left because he wouldn’t stay a couple years, it follows that this fellow WILL stay a couple of years, No?
I’m not going to condemn the guy, until I see a reason to condemn him.
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:19 am)Who knows, maybe Lyle is discussed openly in the Board room (which would be really cool).
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:33 am)MI is pretty darn close to Chicago…and since dealers ARE allowed to sell out of state, I say go for it.
+8
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:38 am)I dunno… that “airplane guy” over at Ford seems to be doing ok.
I don’t think you need experience in cars per se, but you do need experience in manufacturing. The new GM CEO has that, as the former head of an electronics manufacturing company. He’s not a newbie to the factory or engineering. So it’s not like they just pulled in a Wall Street money guy with no technical experience. He’s also a former Navy guy with an engineering degree. I don’t see any warning flags. He seems pretty well rounded.
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:38 am)As S.C. Senator Earnest “Fritz” Hollings’ might have said:
“We need more demandin’ goin’ on out dere.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:39 am)I didn’t see anyone mention that he has a BS in Engineering. If he’s got that background in addition to finance, we’ll be OK.
Daniel Akerson
Age: 61
New job: CEO, General Motors Co., starting Sept. 1
Current job: Managing director, Carlyle Group, an investment and buyout company; will quit Carlyle before Sept. 1; joined GM’s board in July 2009
Previous work: Broad experience in telecommunications; was chairman, CEO or president of General Instrument Corp., MCI Communications Corp., Nextel Communications Inc. and XO Communications
Education: B.S., engineering, U.S. Naval Academy; M.S., London School of Economics
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100816/OEM02/308169962/1432#ixzz0wmelzRiB
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:52 am)Isn’t demand billing a primitive form of time of day pricing? Given the movement towards TOD pricing I’d think demand billing would not be that common moving forward.
As something of a tangent, if EVs are clustered, which they will be, the aggregate demand of all the charging at one time may well blow out the existing neighborhood transformer. No big deal but there will doubtless have to be some upgrading of transformers. (Not a problem in the EU where the transformers serve a much wider geographic area).
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:53 am)Amen! Can I hear a NPNS!
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:54 am)It’s true that you’re free to buy or lease a Volt out-of-state, CBK! In fact, two of our fellow bloggers here at gm-volt.com —both from south Florida— have firm orders with dealers in Michigan roughly 1,400 miles from them. Chi-town’s almost next door to MI …SO GO FOR IT!!!
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:54 am)“Moreover, the halls of GM are filled with endless numbers of car guys and gals, what the company needs is a leader, not another engineer.”
My observation has been that when an engineering company is led by a non-engineer, then there is the potential for the company to lose its way. Hewlett Packard is one example.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:56 am)For those in the Detroit area or nearby, the “Woodward Dream Cruise” is starting to get into gear, the “official” event being this coming weekend. It appears that there may be an appearance of a Volt (or two?) at this event, probably on Saturday. I will open up a thread in one of the forums to provide a place to collect info about this.
A link: http://www.hometownlife.com/article/20100815/NEWS20/8150364/1037/What+s+happening+during+this+week+s+Dream+Cruise
+8
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:59 am)Better still if Lyle were on the Board of Directors.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:10 am)Utility ROEs are regulated, so you have a ‘excess profits’ safeguard built in.
As far as utility inflexibility, you have a valid beef there, IMO. Tough not to have it, though, since they’re so highly regulated–double edged sword.
It’s wonderful to finally have some reasonable ‘get-off-the-grid’ choices. That appeals to a lot of people, not just the militia goof types.
Back on topic:
Love the Photoshopping of Ackerson’s face in the driver’s seat above. Is that the biggest head ever? Very entertaining, Lyle.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:22 am)ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Demand billing has ZERO to do with time of day whatsoever! I am sure there are billing schemes that provide for the combination of the two, but this is apples and oranges.
If I crank up all the equipment I’ve got at 3 AM, my meter will register that demand WHENEVER it happened. The meter remains pegged to the HIGHEST demand reading until the meter reader re-zeroes it at the start of your next billing cycle.
To give you an idea, FPL keeps two years worth of billing history available for review. Our worst reading ever is still sitting there from a winter reading (we have electric heat in FL) a year and a half ago. It was 38 kw. (note that, by comparison, our average was about 23 kw) That 38 kw corresponds to nearly $400 worth of bill. You know WHY it happened? It was chilly that morning and the stupid staff came in and cranked up BOTH heating units to warm up the place. After I got THAT bill (of well over $500), is when I investigated what the hell happened and found out that just ONE FREAKIN HOUR of toasty toes for our employees cost me HUNDREDS of dollars.
To make this clear, until all of my efforts paid off and I got off of demand billing, my PV solar provided more electricity to the utility than they gave me. I was actually banking kwh for later use. Even though I had ZERO billed kwh, my bill was still over $100!!!!!! (due to DEMAND charges) They should have paid ME! And there is nothing on my meter that registers any time of day usage at all.
This is why I am screaming from the highest mountain. You folks need to understand just how bad demand billing can screw you over if it is allowed into residential billing arrangements.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:31 am).
Transformer replacement is a routine action that takes about an hour.
As you said, not a big deal.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:34 am).
Perhaps good to be cautious about this as the reason, as it does not originate with Whitacre and seems to conflict with Whitacre’s earlier statements. More likely it was something about the IPO.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:35 am)I second that motion. We need to appoint Lyle to the Board of GM.
NPNS!
-3
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:40 am)Maybe, if you look macroscopically, you might see some salvation in this. However, my efforts with solar and the PSC have shown me that microscopically, you are screwed. As a class, PV is growing. However, it is such a small part of the pie that it gains no recognition in tariffs. My demand FROM the utility is monitored- and billed for, but I get no benefit (nor monitoring of) my demand RETURNED to the utility (just kwh- and that is relatively recent). Often times, my reverse demand is on the order of 10 kw, but it doesn’t mean squat.
Likewise, EV owners will gain no recognition in tariff schedules (except for what the utilities do to benefit them). Until now, residential demand has been considered too small (in general) for regulators approving demand charges on us ‘normal folk’. EVs TOTALLY change the game. Some folks discuss how the grid can’t handle our new vehicles. It would be foolish to believe that utilities will not approach PSCs to get us to help pay for their stated desires to upgrade resulting infrastructure.
Demand billing is out there- and it has been for a century. It apparently originated when early private (and isolated) providers of electricity started losing ground to the regional monopolies we have grown to know and love today. It doesn’t take any imagination to realize that it is not PROFITS that will be used as justification to implement demand billing on residential customers, it is indeed the INCREASED DEMAND that our automobiles will result in.
+4
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:43 am)Perhaps I should have been more specific. The purpose of demand billing to to encourage users to spread out their use during the day so as not to overload the grid. The assumption is that individual users will have roughly the same demand schedule. For example if peak power consumption occurs during the late afternoon in CA or early evening in the winter in CT, then users in those geographic areas will also have their peak demand during those times.
As you point out, the problem with demand billing is that this assumption doesn’t necessarily obtain. For example, if you are charging your three EVs at midnight then your demand may peak at the lowest peak time for the utility. The utility would want this very much, yet demand billing actively discourages it. IOW a utility using demand billing can end up shooting itself in the foot. This is why TOD pricing works so much better. In fact, in a perfect world, prices could fluctuate throughout the day and appliances and so forth would be able to pick the cheapest time to run. We’re a way off from this but in Germany we had two meters and, depending on the demand, the utility would switch from one to the other. You could hear the switch so you almost always knew when you had the cheaper rate.
Do you know of an electric utility that uses TOD and demand billing? I don’t think you’ll find one because TOD pricing is just a more refined approach to cutting peak demand.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:44 am)I wish Mr Akerson well in his new position. I am certainly hopeful he will be true to his words about Voltec. GM needs to start pushing the envelope with new development. Sitting around on their butts too long will see their advantages slip by and be lost to the competition.
Thanks, Lyle. Another good report.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:45 am)No more so that a cluster of plasma TVs.
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:52 am)In CA if you have a solar system there are separate schedules for TOD pricing where you get credited at a higher rate during peak demand periods. From 6 AM to 6 PM you may get credited at $.18/kWh and from 6 PM to 6 AM you pay $.12/kWh. Most users with PV systems don’t use this schedule because both peak and off-peak rates will be above the base flat rate.
The gotcha is that distribution is charged separately from the charge for the electricity itself, and the distribution charges still exist even if there isn’t any power being delivered. Some large users have been surprised when their solar installation doesn’t eliminate these charges, which are not nominal. For residential users this isn’t so important because the charges would amount to may $5/month.
-2
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:57 am)I was avid EV-1 driver, and am still somewhat shy of GM due to the (especially now in retrospect) poor choice to cancel the EV-1 program.
If GM would like a knowledgeable cadre of enthusiastic proponents, they could offer to honor the EV-1 lease payments as an offset to the purchase of a Volt.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:05 pm)He he. Yes it’s not only EVs that can create the problem. Plasma TVs don’t draw that much power, but air conditioners do, which is why I know the problem is real. Where I am not that many houses have AC because it’s close to the water. The houses were plumbed for AC but few had them until recently, when more and more people have had them installed. Every few years we have a very hot summer and neighbors suffer blackout until the utility can install a larger transformer. What’s odd is that the utility always first tries to fix the old transformer, which works for one night and then blows out the next afternoon as everyone cranks up.
To some extent the problem is mitigated because if EV charging id done at off peak times the background demand will be low. IOW if 20 houses are on a transformer and you have 3 households with EVs, you have 17 houses whose demand is low, off-setting the high demand from the 3. But where I am you may only have 5-10 houses on a transformer, so if 3 of them are charging you may have a problem.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:05 pm)Bob Lutz says it all. Unquestionably, Dan Akerson Googles outstanding. We all know Akerson turned-around General Instrument or GI. This company -GI – over the years encompassed several storied brands. The oldest being Jerrold. (This brand being phased out 20 years ago)
I digress. A bit of history.
Jerrold was an electronic pioneering brand located in Philadelphia after WWII. In fact, Philly was then home to hundreds of electronic companies It was the dawn of the semiconductor era.
Let me quickly note while Philly was ‘home’ to numerous semiconductor companies — Silicon Valley pioneer (Palo Alto-Mountain View, Cal.) Fairchild’s co-founder Robert Noyce invented (1959-1960) the ‘integrated circuit’. In other words, a way to miniaturize semiconductors onto a chip of silicon.)
GI organized (c.1960-62) its semiconductor group under the brand General Microelectronics. This group researched the process known as MOS. In 1963, GME claimed to have put a calculator on a chip. An amazing feat of engineering. This got the interest of Philco-Ford in Palo Alto and thereafter the very first auto related semiconductors. (Starting a challenge to make them reliable.)
Back to topic: Its great to hear Lyle’s communicated with GM’s new CEO. And he’s making VOLT a priority.
-1
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:21 pm)You don’t know what you are talking about.
I didn’t have to look far (as I have become so familiar with FPLs tariff schedule).
http://www.fpl.com/rates/pdf/2010%20Aug%201%20-%20Section%208%20ebook%20%283%29.pdf
Check out GSDT-1. Conveniently, it is indeed entitled ‘General Service DEMAND-TIME OF USE’.
Amazingly, that also means there is a meter built to deal with both time AND demand!!
Sometimes your analyses are spot on. Sometimes you need to take a backseat and learn. I have never once seen you, DonC, fess up to being less than perfect in your retorts. Let’s see if you can admit it here.
I had agreed with where you were going with your discussion until you got to this statement. I agree that TOD billing is the idealized high point. But you have approached this from an individual perspective. How can a restaurant spread out its demand for its cooking equipment? ‘Sorry folks come back at 3 AM. It costs too much to turn on the deep fat fryer right now.’ If you think demand billing is going anywhere ‘FAHGEDABOWDIT’. My concern and my caution to folks here is to do all you can to make sure demand billing doesn’t find its way into residential billing. If everyone does, like good little boys and girls, charge their EVs during the overnight it will all be peaches and plums. If you are a night shift worker, WATCH OUT!!! As I stated, the problem will most likely be if you want to charge your EV DURING PEAK TIME. I am saying to expect a premium (and have it be addressed in tariffs, likewise) for this usage. But again as stated, demand billing, in its current form, screws you over for THE WHOLE FREAKIN YEAR!!! Extrapolate my previously stated ISOLATED heater incident to the ONE FREAKIN TIME you need to charge your EV during the day. Combine the two concepts and you realize the utilities could get PSCs to make you suffer for a year with that ONE errant charge. As I said, You Have Been Warned.
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:27 pm)=================================
We never really heard if you and Ted checked with your local dealers about service.
That is a really important part of this decision.
My local dealer has no information about being an authorized service center for the Volt.
If that is the case, there is no way I would but this car until I am assured there is local service available. Because the thought of having to truck it up to MI is not even a thought I would want to entertain…..
So for me, I guess I will have to wait.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:38 pm)At least Akerson has a BS in engineering. That’s a start since at least he knows a little bit about creating something and at least some of what that entails, instead of just massaging numbers and wordsmithing (as I’ve heard Statik say). I can see a pure finance guy (or even a pure communication company CEO) getting too impatient with the lead time in the auto industry. Think about how impatient we have all been waiting these years for the Volt.
-6
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:41 pm)In response, see previous posts, especially the part about ‘apples and oranges’. You, again, discuss KILOWATT HOURS. I am warning you that your new meter could come with something that also reads KILOWATTS. The advent of EVs make residential customers prime targets for such billing. If you think that a utility has no incentive to bill you for BOTH (and still factor in time of day), you are fooling yourself. And I didn’t say it was coming; I advised readers to make sure it DOESN’T. Utilities have lobbyists, we don’t. If we are ignorant as to HOW we can be screwed, be assured we won’t know what hit us until it is too late.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:41 pm)Thanks for the warning. Nice to have someone calling out the weaknesses in the system. You are playing an important role.
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:49 pm)Having gotten acquainted with you in NYC, Jim, I assure you I wouldn’t exaggerate or mislead. I checked with the Volt ordering hotline TWICE and both times was assured that ALL Chevy dealers who ever expect to sell Volts in the future MUST complete all sales & service training to do so THIS YEAR, before the first Volts go on sale anywhere. Since virtually ALL dealers want to sell Volts, you can get your car serviced almost anywhere in the US even if you buy it before the end of this year. Talk to your dealership’s owner & to the Volt ordering hotline.
-5
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:51 pm)Forgot to address this.
Wrong again. As I just pointed out with the deep fat fryer, the PURPOSE is not to get you to change your habits. The restaurant does not have the luxury to shift usage. It, therefore, has to pay for its impact on infrastructure. Your reasoning is like saying that income taxes were implemented just to get you to buy a house (or give to a church, buy an EV, etc). Nope, the PURPOSE of the charge is to pay for infrastructure to support that demand. You might set a price to encourage specific behavior, but the charge itself has NOTHING to do with what you do in response to various rates available to you.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:02 pm)Thank you for saying this. Guess the negs are coming from DonC. I said this last week, that fellow takes stubborn to whole new level. I don’t think it is possible to change his mind on anything, so my responses are generally for the benefit of others. If he throws out more bum dope, I’ll let you know. As Emil Faber stated, ‘Knowledge is Good’.
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:11 pm)flmark @ #62 says: “My concern and my caution to folks here is to do all you can to make sure demand billing doesn’t find its way into residential billing. ”
We have had residential demand billing from Ohio Edison for as long as I have owned my home, which is 15 years. My parents in Western PA had it when I was a kid. We used to just break off the tab on the meter and reset it…. But I would never do that now!!! ;-(
Here is a link to the Ohio Edison site that describes load meters.
https://www.firstenergycorp.com/Residential_and_Business/Billing_and_Payments/Read_Meter_Form/How_To_Read_Your_Load_Meter.html
My meter in Ohio looks like the second one.
I have never looked at the meter on my second home in FL. I will do that on the next trip, because now I am curious! I do see on the Florida Power and light bill, that there is one rate charged for the first 1000KWh used, and then a second (more expensive) rate for usage over 1000KWh.
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:14 pm)=============================
I understand what GM is saying. I am just telling you what the manager of my local dealer is telling me.
Have you spoken to your local dealer yet? That was my question. I am just curious what they are telling you…..
+7
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:15 pm).
You make some good comments that would be more persuasive and interesting if you eased up on the personal comments. Please, and thank you.
+7
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:16 pm)Not sure if it’s fair to ask such a thing. The lease price of an EV-1 was already highly subsidized by GM. Maybe a poor PR choice to cancel the EV-1 program, but it was a sound business choice at the time. GM was nowhere near making a profit on them. You can’t force a company to sell you something at a loss, just because you really really want it.
+4
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:20 pm)Oh BS. Stop being a butt. Those negative votes have nothing to do with me.
I think what you’re saying is that when I agree with you I’m spot on and when I don’t I’m completely off base. So what exactly does that say? Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha!
+6
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:25 pm)I just had a surprise visit from the “Principle Engineer” for our fair city. Just an introductory meeting so he could get info on VOLT, and gave me opportunity to him questions about charging.
He tells me that over the next 5 to 10 years, our town will slowly transition to the use of ‘dual meters’… which is what SoCalEdison is doing right now. One for Residence and one for Rapid Charging Station… as more and more consumers switch over to electric charged vehicles.
The need for the second meter is eliminated if you only use the 120V charging cord. It would be no different than turning on your hair dryer. The consumers that have their electrician “add a 240V line” is when things get interesting. The contractor has to file a permit and that is when the city learns about the charging station, and then can require the “smart meter” be installed.
He did tell me that my city does have a “green policy” and that it is not just ‘talk’… so homeowners that opt for the new meters and high-speed charging will get a different/better rate. His main reason for visiting was to gather info for future planning of the city’s infrastructure.
It was very interesting!
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:31 pm)Did he buy a Volt? 8^)
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:34 pm)I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for this one.
I bet it was a very interesting conversation for you.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:36 pm)I gave him a stack of Order/Deposit Forms, The VOLT Ordering Guide, and a .pdf of my mileage table (see below). He says that he is the guy who orders all of the City’s vehicles for Electric Department including those $350,000 CNG-powered rigs that the powerline workers use. He says he is interested in acquiring maybe 5 next year. Cool beans, man… Cool beans!
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:36 pm)What an interesting time to take on GM. It’s a transition period and the possibilities and risks are endless.
Will Dan take take the safe and expected path to continue pumping out SUVs and trucks with a few percentage points increase in fuel economy, perhaps a few weak hybrids for show, or take the hard and wise path towards sustainable transportation? This is what the world needs, not more of the same old same old.
This will be a very difficult path to take. If you look at most current political leaders, they are trying desperately to fire up the global economy again without any concerns for the petroleum crisis that awaits. Yes, the people are crying for jobs and to get back to their “normal” lifestyles but it’s irresponsible and short-sighted to light the fuse of a rocket when indoors.
The CEO at GM should have a much longer view of where the company is headed. It’s not headed toward an environment with plentiful and inexpensive petroleum products, that’s for sure.
The electrification of transportation – the new global industry
Embrace it…
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:42 pm)I couldn’t find a GSDT-1. It either doesn’t exist or your cite is wrong. But aren’t the GS tariffs for businesses? You’re playing the electric Paul Revere and warning people that their residential rates are going up. As I mentioned, business and residential tariff schedules can be quite different.
It’s unlikely in the extreme that a residential customer will see demand pricing. It’s one thing if a business suddenly starts machinery which sucks down 100,000 KW. That could present a big problem for the system operator trying to load balance. It’s entirely different if your wife turns on her hair hairdryer or you plug an EV in. That’s not a big deal. Actually since you’re the expert in demand pricing, do you know of a residential tariff anywhere that uses demand pricing? Just asking the question.
+9
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:51 pm)GM then was a different company, had a different face than GM now. I can’t sympathize with anyone who carries over their grudge against the old GM to the reorganized GM because of old GM’s handling of the EV-1. Time to get over it, and to update your attitude. GM learned from the EV-1 experience, and to their credit, they have followed it up and created something magnificent. The Volt will do what the EV-1 could never have done – and that is, it will finally establish electrically driven vehicles as an enduring market segment.
It would be a nice gesture if GM were to allow former EV-1 lessees to move to the front of the line in getting a Volt. But a credit, or special discount? Absolutely not.
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:51 pm)I hope the orders come thru for you, VoltGuy!
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:53 pm)I still think this would be more effective if the bars were somehow adjusted for the percentage of trips. For example, while 75% of all trips would be 40 miles or less, and trips over 100 miles would occur less than 2% of the time, the bars for the 40 mile trips are the same size as the bars for the 100 mile trips, suggesting that the frequency of both types of trips would be the same.
My off the top of the head suggestion would be to use the width of the bars to indicate the expected frequency of a trip of that length. So if trips of 40 miles or less occurred 80% of the time, and trips of 60-100 miles occurred 10% of the time (just making these numbers up), then the bar for the 40 mile trip would be 8X the width of the 60-100 trip. That way the dark green area of the bar would suggest how likely the person would be to use that much gas on any given day. The dark green area, when compared to the light green area, would also suggest the relative probability of how much many miles you would drive on electricity versus how many miles you’d drive using gas.
You could also give it a title like “Getting to 230 MPG”. LOL
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:56 pm)Definitely the “Percentage of Trips” makes a lot of sense. I will work on it.
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:59 pm)Jim, I just got off the phone with the manager of the service department for Daytona Beach Chevrolet (NOT just a “svc mgr”, but the person who runs the entire svc dept) who told me (enthusiastically) that their service people will have completed all Volt training by next month (September) and assured me they will be fully qualified to service a Volt long before their dealership can sell them, including all warranty service, parts, labor, etc. My guess is that your local dealer is either not up to speed or else never plans to sell Volts. Hope this helps.
Aug 16th, 2010 (2:08 pm)Thank you for pointing this out; I was actually hoping someone would. When I gave a presentation on green to the local Sierra club, someone (again from Ohio) pointed out that they indeed had residential demand billing.
Demand billing is not, in and of itself, bad- it is how it is implemented. My solar PV got me looking into it and that’s when I realized it has the potential to totally screw you over. Online research showed me that (in comparing NY and FL), I should expect that the year long penalty is widespread. This should not be. As we envision how a fight over demand billing would proceed, that should be the first place to start. Why should anyone suffer for a whole year because of 15 minutes?
Next from a PV perspective, I noted the difference in what makes you a demand customer. In NY, if you stay under 2000 kilowatt-HOURS each month, you are below the threshold. That would mean my PV investment alone would have been enough to avoid demand charges (I am always under 1000 kwh with the solar in place). In FL, however, what makes you a demand customer is entirely different. There, it is based on not exceeding 21 KILOWATTS of demand. The problem with FL is that one bad day (make that 30 minute span) can screw you up for a whole year- but not in NY.
So, in FL, since I have to worry so much about demand (cloudy days will wipe out any benefit you get from solar towards demand), I had to keep spending money. I won’t bore you with a list (unless someone asks), but I will give one example. At my house, I installed a solar water heater. But not so at the office. Why? On cloudy days, a solar water heater will revert to its backup electric coils to heat the water. As soon as those coils energize, BOOM, I have just added approximately 6 (of my 21 limit threshold) kw. A solar water heater is great if you look at OVERALL KWH, but bad if you are forced to care more about DEMAND. So my business in NY might have a solar water heater, but in FL I have to skip the sun (go figure- the ‘sunshine’ state). Instead, I installed a heat pump water heater that will suck no more than ONE HALF KILOWATT of demand. This is one reason my demand has fallen so drastically- and must stay there because of that one year killer penalty.
The comparison between NY and FL gives you an idea of how you might be effected and how you can influence the outcome. Regardless of what one reader here thinks, demand charges are here to stay. Time of day implementation may influence grid utilization somewhat, but you should expect that a (electric arc) welding shop will have to pay more for its impact on the grid than a craft shop- even if that craft shop is open 24 hours a day and the welding shop just 8. Yeah, you all are not businesses, but you are about to become much more kilowatt intensive with your EV. And it makes sense that charging your EV over 8 hours (if you have the time), will suck juice at a slower rate than if you do it in 3 hours. It really isn’t so hard to see that those ‘free’ 220v EV chargers from the utility may come with ENORMOUS strings attached. Can you see a scenario where it is noon on a Wednesday and the damn thing is deactivated? Or maybe, yeah you can use it if you raid the kid’s college fund? I certainly can.
Whether it be grizzly bears in Alaska, sharks in the ocean or demand charges with your EV, it always pays to know as much as you can about the scary things lurking out there that can eat you alive.
[BTW, your meter in FL will show nothing special. Your difference in rates over 1000 kwh is just implemented by the accounting department. FYI, my digital bi-directional (due to solar) meter at the office has 3 numbers (+kwh,-kwh,kw) and the home meter has 2 numbers (+kwh,-kwh)]
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (2:15 pm)The example you are giving is for industrial (business) usage. Saying that this will translate into individual (consumer) billing plans is probably not gonna happen.
The utility is not going to discourage people from using off-peak power. They want this to happen. If you happen to spike your KW usage during off-peak, it probably won’t cause this class of charge to show up. I doubt that folks would sign up for the billing plan if this was the case.
Even now, with zero incentive, I use off-peak as much as possible such as running the pool pump, clothes dryer, and dishwasher. With the new smart meters we will see some interesting billing plans, but, I’m not giving up my 10.2 cents flat-rate very easily. I still use most of the KWh during the day when I’m awake and it’s 100+ degrees outside.
And, you’re probably getting negs because this is way off topic for this thread. (And, you’re starting to sound conspiracy-theory-esque.)
Aug 16th, 2010 (2:22 pm)Just to spice it up between you and flmark even more (!) … There are indeed “big brother” issues coming with the so-called smart meters. I posted one such issue, which is a potential disaster for residential solar generators, a couple of weeks ago. In a nutshell, PG&E (SF bay area CA) has a “mandatory E9″ rate structure for folks owning any form of plug-in vehicle. I have analyzed that rate structure, which is currently labeled as “experimental,” and it would nullify a significant part of the payback from my solar system’s power generation.
I called PG&E and eventually spoke to someone who (fortunately) reassured me that PG&E is not happy with the current E9 rate structure, and they were in the process of re-working it to be “much more favorable to customers, and especially solar customers.” He said to expect an announcement next Spring on this. He also said that PG&E has no way of knowing if you have a plug-in vehicle.
So my plan is to stay in stealth mode, get a Volt ASAP (still a ways off, nonetheless), and hope GM isn’t serious about information sharing with the utilities. WE DON’T WANT THIS!! Also, I plan to stick with 110V charging, so no permits are generated.
Aug 16th, 2010 (2:51 pm)=============================
That is really interesting.
Sweeney Chevrolet is a very large dealership here in Youngstown. The day that Volt pricing was released, they called me to tell me that OH was not in one of the initial release areas, and that they were unhappy about it. I mentioned this site, and that we already were aware of those areas. He also said that the call was just to let me know that they had not forgotten about me, and my interest in the Volt. About one week later, I stopped by to ask about service. That was when they told me they had no information about service for the Volt. Maybe I will give them another call to see if anything has changed…..
Either that, or GM is planning on having FL as a next market for the Volt, and OH is way down on the list!
I will let everyone know what I find out.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (2:54 pm)Or, maybe 220v charging is more efficient than 110v and the electricity provider wants to make charging EVs as efficient as possible.
The charging rate can be controlled with 220v just as easily as 110v. So peak demand doesn’t have to change. Having two hot legs is almost always more efficient than a single leg. Using a smart meter with a smart charger could make the charging process very efficient demand-wise.
Yeah, it may serve their purposes, but, I seriously doubt that the big, bad electric company is doing all this R&D just to tick people off. Rather than charging for peak demand, they could avoid spikes all together with proper design and cooperation between systems.
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:01 pm)Okay. So I’ve added ‘Percentage of Annual Miles Driven’ on the right side, however, since I do not have the entire report/study that was used by GM to arrive at the 76% number, I am just using estimates of my own driving for the rest of the chart.
Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the full report on the study used by GM to make this table more accurate?
Thanks for the assistance!
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:01 pm)Hey Jim, I should also mention that I’ve talked by telephone to both our LeoK (a Chevy dealer in CT) and to our CorvetteGuy (CA dealer) —and BOTH have assured me ANY DEALER IN THE US WHO EVER plans to sell Volts MUST complete the sales and service training THIS YEAR. It has NOTHING to do with Florida’s time table at GM. Believe, I’ve done my homework on this & I’m 100% sure Sweeney is wrong ___ I don’t care if they own 100 dealerships!!! I don’t know what their smokin’, but I’m sure Cheech & Chong want to know about it!
-5
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:15 pm)Your whole tone stinks: “Paul Revere”,”expert on demand pricing”, “site [I'll correct your spelling'] doesn’t exist.” You have again tread upon why I am not the only one who doesn’t engage you once you have erected your wall of arrogance and infallibility. I followed the link (copied in your post) and GSDT-1 is the SIXTH item down (so it does exist, SMART A$$). Look again.
Note the order in which it appears as well as its name ‘General’ (not commercial or any other such term). It appears BEFORE the residential rates. Do you honestly believe that the same government that is about to FORCE you to buy health insurance cannot move you up higher on a list of electrical customers after you buy your EV? I don’t have to register my inflatable boat or my small outboard engine. Put them together and I have to register them. My cautionary comment is about residential customers being moved via a regulatory decision and I am advising folks to be prepared to act in their own defense (indeed, like Paul Revere).
So, when you get to an indefensible position, do you oft start quoted ridiculous numbers (100,000 kw)? As I just pointed out in another response (to a RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMER WHO ALREADY HAS DEMAND BILLING), all it takes is for your water heater to energize and you are already nearly 1/3 of the way to exceeding the threshold set in FL. Let’s see, if you are doing laundry with an electric dryer and cooking dinner (with electric appliances) at the same time, I dare say, BOOM, you have passed the magic number. Again, why would you believe that if they can use that number for a business, that you, as a residential customer, are beyond reach?
After I got extricated from demand billing, the utility suddenly owed me $400 because they backdated the charges. A monthly bill that went from well over a hundred dollars went to eight dollars. If you don’t think demand billing is a big deal, take it from someone who paid it for a small business- it is! Also, take it from someone who has dealt with his PSC, check out the backgrounds of your PSC Commissioners. The same kind of back scratching that went on between the government and the industry with regards to the Gulf Oil rig drilling prior to the spill, also exists in (at least FL’s) PSC. What the utilities ask for, they often get. And with EVs but a scant few months away, if you don’t think people at the utilities aren’t chomping at the bit, you are delirious. The electric companies are about to take over from gas stations, your EV DEFINITELY impacts the power grid and yet you see nothing to be concerned about. Fine. I have dealt with these bullies and they don’t fight fair. It is big business and we are the peons with the wallets to be raided. I am holding onto mine. You do with yours what you want. So, I guess I’ll be ‘Paul Revere’, after all. He couldn’t MAKE folks pick up their guns- but thank God they did.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:20 pm)Not too ‘stealthy’ to call the company and announce that you are worried about this rate.
I doubt that GM would share customer’s personal information with another company. Especially if they got no benefit and potential lawsuits for doing it.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:27 pm)/Footnote to my post #92: Jim, forgive me if I sound confrontational or combative —I really just want to give you some ammunition to use in discussions with your local Chevy dealer(s).
[The interchanges between DonC & flmark have been MORE than enough abrasive grand -standing for today!]
-4
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:30 pm)First off, businesses are in business to make money, nothing more. If you don’t think that those businesses are callous as to whether you are pissed off, check out how many facebook friends that flight attendant picked up after he deployed the slide and gave the proverbial middle finger to the airline. And check out how much crap is in your cell phone provider’s bill. Nope, businesses with a CAPTIVE audience usually don’t care about anything but your money. To bad. So sad. There’s the door- oh no, that door is blocked- you can’t leave, bah hah hah. (We are a monopoly- or you have a two year service contract- you pick the next line.)
Secondly, how can you think, given that the whole point of 220v charging is to charge faster, that you aren’t drawing more juice? The kwh of battery storage get in there faster for a reason. It is called more KW! (or higher demand)
-1
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:42 pm)Interesting post. Thanks for the info. Indeed, the more I have thought about it, the more I realize that your ‘stealth’ mode makes a whole lotta sense. Think I’ll do the same.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:44 pm)States’ rights in this area would be hard to overcome. Texas is going to secede from the union if the feds keep this crap up.
It’s also a little late for anybody to do anything about your EV ‘after’ the purchase. Heck, they can’t even detect when someone has thousands of grow lights to cultivate their weed!
One or two extra 220v loads per meter won’t be noticed by anyone. I already converted to gas cooking and gas water heating. Once the gas clothes dryer shows up, I can hook up three EV’s and nobody will know the difference.
/crap, maybe I said too much about the grow lights.
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:44 pm)I like the “no-bs” philosophy of Mr. Akerson. That’s a critical attribute at this point.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:55 pm)It doesn’t necessarily have to charge faster, is my point. The demand can be controlled by the charging rate. With two hot legs instead of one, it can charge more efficiently at the same rate.
It’s not really going to matter much. We’re only talking about 80 cents worth of electricity per day. I’ll just set the charger to come on when the pool pump is not on. My peak demand won’t change one watt.
Hardly deserves all this drama.
-2
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:58 pm)Bah hah
I won’t disagree that my discussion sounds like conspiracy theory material, BUT when I tell people that I can (and do) give the electric company MORE electricity than I use (via solar) and STILL end up with a >$100 bill- the reaction is universally the same- ‘that ain’t right’.
There is a huge difference between paranoia and post traumatic stress disorder. When you blaze trails in the world of green- you end up with a lot of bruises. And you try and look out for the next branch ready to smack you in the face.
Don’t Worry. Be Happy
Aug 16th, 2010 (4:01 pm)============================
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Forget Cheech and Chong, If it is that good, I want to know what they are smokin’!!!!!!!
I did not take it as confrontational. Not to worry, bud.
After reading your post, I just sent e-mails to Mr. Sweeney, and the Manger of the service department, requesting more information.
Again, I will let you know what I find out!
Thanks.
Aug 16th, 2010 (4:04 pm)No they’re not. You’re own example shows the power of people going after the same cause.
Why do you think that BP station owners are trying to change their company names? Because the mother company ticked off a bunch of people and they’re not buying BP gas any more.
Any company that ignores their customers will eventually go out of business. GM tried that once already. They almost were successful in their demise.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (4:32 pm)Hee hee, didn’t tell them who I am, and called from my work phone. Am also working on a voice pitch scrambler, so they can’t get good voice-prints from me. (One of the above three statements is untrue, not telling which. Paranoid? Me??)
+7
Aug 16th, 2010 (4:43 pm)All this arguing over demand charges by the power company and time-of-day-related charges can be cleared up easily by considering a simple example.
Imagine a power company’s customers each use 100 kilowatt-hours a month. Group A customers use them very uniformly, at the rate of about 35 kilowatt-hours a day. But Group B customers turn on a huge device once a month and use all 100 kilowatt-hours in less than an hour.
If the power company served only Group A, it needs to invest in only a tiny 3-kW generator and lines that would be sufficient.
But because of Group B’s peculiar demand pattern, it must invest in a large, costly 1,000-kW generator and lines.
Is it fair to expect Group A to also pay for this big investment that is necessary solely because of Group B’s peculiar usage? This is what would happen if the power company lumped all costs together and spread them over energy charges (kWh). No–which is why power companies sometimes break their bills into two parts: energy (kWh) and demand (kW). They do this only for commercial and other large users probably because residential users wouldn’t understand it and would make things hot for them politically.
Varying residential energy charges by time of day (lower night rates) is intended to be an approximation of the demand charge system–without stirring up a hornet’s nest.
When I said above “Is it fair…”, it can also be understood, in the case of prospective commercial customers, to mean “Could we attract them to move to our service area?” (if their demand is low but they get charged the same energy-only way as the rest of our customers). So the power company’s demand-charge system is not only about fairness but also good business practice.
No doubt the greatly-increased electric consumption of the Volt and other electric vehicles will encourage more power companies to offer (or insist on) the demand system or time-of-day energy rates. (The cars will be recharged at night.) As a result they will increase their total electric production and profit without having to make a big new investment.
Aug 16th, 2010 (4:50 pm)I totally agree. For years, GM ignored American interests and signed outrageous contracts with the Unions. I think you would agree that they were in a rut, which is really just one long grave.
I think that GM got too big and just wasn’t nimble enough to change with the times. They were too willing to mass produce expensive bad cars.
I would like to see a much better battery in the new Volt right from the get-go and I also believe with all the breakthroughs its entirely possible. But being a big awkward company, this is unlikely to happen.
The American steel industry had to learn the lesson that arrogance teaches and so did IBM and Lehman Bros. If GM wants to survive they need to learn this lesson also. They must become much more nimble so that they can react to market forces.
go volt, go gm
-1
Aug 16th, 2010 (4:52 pm)I won’t disagree that MOST businesses must follow this rule. I made my statement about businesses you are FORCED to do business with.
Let me tell you a story about how I met the RIGHT guy at FPL to get me off of demand billing. I had exhausted ALL channels with my (valid) arguments about my current kw usage. I had been escalated and passed off to higher levels of ordinary customer service. The reply, “I’m sorry. I can’t help you.” You see, they had no REQUIREMENT to remove me from demand billing; they had their tariffs in place. ‘I don’t make the rules’ becomes the attitude.
While the PSC is pretty much useless, they do have a feature on their website that allows you to either send a complaint to the PSC or directly to the utility (so that it COMES from the PSC). In my complaint, I mentioned about taking the issue to the press (who would have a field day with it- while oil is pouring in the Gulf). You know, within 12 hours I got a call from someone at the corporate head office who then had THE guy call who would fix the problem. I had enough documented in my complaint that this fellow said that, after a site inspection confirming my improvements to lower demand, I was off the demand rate. WOO HOO. Further, he said he would back date the rate as to when my demand fell off. EVEN BETTER. This absolutely put my faith back in my utility…BUT
I shouldn’t have had to get to that point. It was clear that I didn’t merit the higher rate, but oh well. It was clear that somebody in the organization COULD fix the problem, but did anybody in customer service pursue it any further? REGULAR business organizations are structured to meet customer demands, because customers can easily walk. Monopolies do not follow this business model. They don’t TRY to tick you off- but the whole organization nearly becomes immobile to customer influence.
Maybe this clarifies. I do not think they set out to hurt the little guy. They set out to make money- and they just have no way to realize or alter when the primary goal causes this secondary effect.
Aug 16th, 2010 (4:55 pm)New battery technology seems to point to zinc-air or silicon-air. These batteries will have better charge rate and give better mileage.
I hope GM will be ready to go with them in 2012 models.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (5:25 pm)From flmark @8
“You must pay attention to this because your utility may want you to stick with 110V charging vs 220V. It is quite likely that, in their own best interest, they will press PSCs across the country to penalize EV owners who exercise the option to charge at the increased RATE of energy consumption that results from 220V, especially if done during peak times”.
—————-
I agree with you whole heartily and thanks for the info.
Factories use “power factor correction devices” to help lower their bills. This device is simply large capacitors hooked up in parallel with the power line. It helps lower the peaks when electric motors starts and stops. How well such a device would work on homes is questionable although some electric companies are experimenting when them on homes who have meters that transmits data to their computers.
http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/energystar.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=4941
http://www.advancedenergy.org/buildings/knowledge_library/systems_approach/energy_saving_devices.html
So beware
Aug 16th, 2010 (5:32 pm)So when is the Voltec going to be mainstream and competitive with ICE stuff?
Aug 16th, 2010 (5:55 pm)steve Said:
So when is the Voltec going to be mainstream and competitive with ICE stuff?
When we get more demandin’ goin’ on out here.
Aug 16th, 2010 (6:02 pm)WHEW! *Lots* of back and forth (and I saw one or two that were actually on topic)(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (6:03 pm)I predict when the ‘media blitz’ hits around Thanksgiving, there will be whole lotta “demandin’” going on!!! Woo hoo!!!
-1
Aug 16th, 2010 (6:12 pm)I whole heartedly agree with most everything stated. I have indeed pointed out that there is substantial reason that demand charges exist. I will add two, shall we say, caveats.
First
You discuss the residential rates being higher to offset demand charges. If desired, one can follow the link I previously posted and view FPLs tariffs http://www.fpl.com/rates/pdf/2010%20Aug%201%20-%20Section%208%20ebook%20%283%29.pdf I spent a lot of time analyzing these rates. The rates of interest are RS-1 vs GS-1 (residential vs commercial non demand) and GS-1 vs GSD-1 (commercial non-demand vs demand). Indeed, GS-1 provides nearly identical rates to RS-1. This definitely passes a fairness test. Also, GSD-1 actually allows you to OPT INTO it vs GS-1 as the rate per kwh does indeed drop. This confirms what was alluded to. Under strange circumstances, a business that sucks very little juice, but does it 24 hours a day, could actually get a cheaper bill with demand billing.
However, it takes very little demand before you RAPIDLY see the dominance of the the demand portion of the bill. Having moved from GSD-1 to GS-1 USING THE SAME AMOUNT OF ELECTRICITY AND AT THE SAME RATE, my bills went from nearly $200 down to $8. Any way you slice it, the demand billing had an INORDINATE effect on my bill. This is my cautionary tale in reverse. If RS-1 and GS-1 are essentially the SAME RATE, one regulatory ruling and we have all instantly moved into a much higher category. While you may consider it so unpopular as to be riot-worthy, the utilities only have to wait long enough until EV acceptance has reached critical mass and then they will have valid arguments for a drastic overhaul of residential billing. Further, they will reason to the powers-that-be, “Look all these people no longer pay for lots of $$$ of gasoline; they should spend it on their electricity instead.” And for the most part, it will be nearly impossible to deny them this request.
Second
I got into this in the first place because of my solar PV. The tariffs simply provide ZERO fairness for a business with PV. At home, I get a one for one swap of kwh. At the office, I have +kwh,-kwh and +kw. Notably lacking is -kw. I can be penalized for sucking juice too rapidly, but never get compensated for doing the same in reverse.
Conclusion.
The problem with demand billing, PSCs and all the rest is the antiquated nature of the current system. Dealing with monopolies is like watching paint dry. I have written to most of the commissioners on the PSC and got almost no response. My next step would be to file a motion, but my problem is solved. I spent a boat load of money to get off of demand billing and I am not worried about it personally anymore. I have played by, and followed, the CURRENT rules.
BUT, the rules will be-a changin (they must) and we EV people need to speak loudly during the changes. I brought up my discussion this morning to inform and motivate. If you understand how the current system fails and know that it must change, you can only fix it PROPERLY if you know what mistakes NOT to make with the next go-round. As I have tried to scream out to Florida legislators, the ‘Sunshine State’ proves little incentive for business owners to use ‘Sunshine’ as an alternative to fossil fuels. I may make a lot of decisions for environmental reasons, but I can’t (and really don’t) expect my fellow business owners to follow my lead. If it don’t pay, they won’t do it. I started to work out some of the numbers, but it was too depressing to realize the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars I STILL had to spend SOLELY because of demand billing to make the solar investment actually pay off.
Hopefully, me writing about this stuff will help you all to avoid some of my experiences. But as Mr Sanders here also believes, if we want to shift gas over to electricity, we must be prepared to address how we are going to pay for it- and if it is a ‘hornet’s nest’ we must deal with, well, is it what it is.
Aug 16th, 2010 (6:39 pm)Nissan originally targeted the five markets with the statement they would be selling 5,000 Leaf BEVs total. I now seems to me that Nissan has underestimated the demand in Japan and has decided that its home market is where they should concentrate sales of the Leaf. On the other hand, orders for the Leaf here in the United States may not be materializing as they originally claimed.
<Happy trails to you 'til we meet again.
-3
Aug 16th, 2010 (6:51 pm)LRGVProVolt Said:
On the other hand, orders for the Leaf here in the United States may not be materializing as they originally claimed.
“By the end of March of 2011, there will have been roughly only 3,300 Leafs delivered nationwide.
Nissan decided to launch in Japan in January, which diverted two thirds of the cars.
What a shame, all those batteries would have been great for boats, battery backups and lots of other uses.
Aug 16th, 2010 (6:53 pm)Nice, a reply from CEO! However it was a rather SHORT REPLY.
I just counted the words and it was a shorter reply than my post about the reply.
Aug 16th, 2010 (6:58 pm)Has anyone else see this great video about the VOLT. It was shot at the Milford Proving Grounds
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/translogic-episode-53/2520450975
Stuff like this will help SELL VOLTS!
It was found on the “official Chevy Volt Page” on facebook
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:04 pm)Apparently, I have written so much (OT) today that now I get -1 just for responding. We’ll see.
People are looking for odd ways to beat the system (as your links show, some concepts just don’t scale at all to us average electricity users), when obvious ways are right in front of them. I discussed the heat pump water heater previously. Having looked at the small business so thoroughly, I have lots of good ideas to share with folks. I think these things will become important sooner, rather than later, to average homeowners because utilities will no longer view us as inocuous. With our EVs, we will have to be ‘managed’ like big companies. Indeed, that heat pump water heater had an unknown $100 incentive assigned to it for business customers. And THE GUY at FPL who got me off demand billing is the one who told me about it and took care of it for me.
However, it appears I have exceeded my acceptable typing limit for the day and the -1s appear now regardless of what I might add. So, I’ll save more good ideas (which will still be OT!) for other days. Don’t Worry. Be Happy.
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:05 pm)Dude —- Do you ever work a real job? You should find away to connect your energy from long winded rants onto the grid. You could power the whole city of Tampa today!
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:39 pm)FLMark,
You need to give your fingers a break. I can see the tension in your posts.
Sit back, have a beer, and enjoy life!
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:39 pm)Good news, we saved $50,000,000 million today. Bad news we still sent $750,000,000 on imported oil… (Price of oil went down $5 a barrel)
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:41 pm)Some days, I write nothing and just read what you all have to write. On those days, I appreciate learning from others. Yesterday’s topic was about utilities and billing. With my experiences over the last several months, I have learned more about this topic than I really wanted to. When I have asked the question, ‘Did you know that you can give more electricity to the utility than they give to you and still have a $200 electric bill?’, no one has ever answered, ‘Yes’.
Given that this forum is probably 30% electric, 60% vehicle and 10% other, I thought this would be useful information to share. Someone at the end of yesterdays thread reminded me of the issue of demand billing. I knew it was too late in the day to add this information. So here it is today, for your viewing pleasure. Now you may not hear from me again for awhile. Normally I am more productive than just typing away all day, but exercise of the mind can be just as valuable as other forms of exercise. Don’t Worry. Be Happy.
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:47 pm)Indeed, time to go relax. I used to teach- old habits, and passions, never die. So, see you later. As a reasonable voice here oft quotes…Happy trails….
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:52 pm)I especially like the way he explains that the Volt is NOT a hybrid!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:57 pm)Thanks for using “Happy trails” and recognition as a reasonable voice.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+4
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:58 pm)I wouldn’t get your hopes up until at least 2015 or beyond. Once these types of batteries start appearing in consumer electronics ad a couple years minimum before they’ll appear in an electric car.
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:00 pm)So when does Lyle get his Volt? The guy is direct and to the point, is he not?
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:09 pm)I for one appreciate what you have written. I will be asking questions about possible updates/changes at my Utility Company. Your willingness to share your experiences do help many of us.
BTW If someone is not interested in a post all they need do is scroll down to the next one. :+}
+3
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:14 pm)FlMark is absolutely right. Utilities will likely become the next petroleum companies without some major competition. Where will that come from? From the advent of distributed energy. And in what form? Like Mark it will come from rooftop solar in the sunbelt and from natural gas fueled SOFCs in colder climates. This is all GOOD for our economy and energy independence (less imported oil) and national security as Combined Heat and Power systems are far less vulnerable to attack. Add to this the fact that outdated overhead power lines can be eliminated, building Residential Power Units mean lots of new manufacturing JOBS – and you have a great alternative to old style centralized power.
Stay vigilant and aware of these changes coming with the proverbial “Smart Grid.” The end game is to make it smart enough to bamboozle you out of your $$$$$!
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:15 pm)Must be nice to be able to sell in Japan and in the US…. what problems those Jap companies have. GM will only be able to sell in the US… no use trying to sell in Japan… with tariffs of over $20,000 why bother. The Japanese put a $20,000 tariff on every car we try to sell in Japan while we are giving Nissan and all other Jap companies $7500 for each elec car they sell in the US.
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:01 pm)Paranoid.
It’s about time we paid attention to the grid and our power supply.
Electricity has been inexpensive and now we’re seeing why. Who wants to pay higher electric bills for any reason!?
If it weren’t for civil intervention for subsidizing forward thinking energy sources, nobody would accept the inevitable changes that will be coming. Electric vehicles would remain as boutique cars.
That’s why the Volt is so significant. It doesn’t raise the electricity bill that much and we can still feel secure enough to drive it anywhere by doing the same old thing and getting some gas.
Here we’re arguing the impact of what it takes to prepare our homes for significantly improving the grid to make room for high range electric vehicles. Soon enough we will be spending a lot more than a dollar a day for electrons for the car.
Power companies are searching for the best method of upgrading power delivery. First it needs data. Do you really believe that Big Brother is embedded in a smart meter?
I feel bad for you if you’re worried about losing privacy from the electric meter, people know more about you than you think.
I can see it now, the inevitable increase in the electric bill is all the fault of electric cars.
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:29 pm)Privacy is a separate issue Crew. Most people never heard of the Fourth Amendment. Which is why we have so many peeping tom felons going to jail. Pervs peering into bedrooms.
But you do need to be concerned about utility monopolies. Utilities like FlMark points out that use trick billing to squeeze more money out of customers. And since utilities have municipal monopolies, there is no competitor to keep them honest.
Monopolies are the fast track to fraud. FlMark’s 39 +1s speak for the forum.
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:38 pm)Way too much discussion of electric rates. I am skipping them from hereon.
-1
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:44 pm)Public utility monopolies have not been created by abusing a free market. I don’t buy flmark’s griping and his intense efforts to correct a perceived wrong.
An electricity user that can be depended on for usage and billing can be planned for. The home owner is definitely not a dependable user of electricity.
If you want to demand more electricity when the power companies are already operating at peak, well, you should expect to pay more.
Pay less when you plug in off peak and bill the utility when you supply the grid.
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:22 pm)Taking a look at Cafe regulations projected over the next 15 years will put electric vehicles in the forefront.
The new GM CEO, as a firm backer of the Volt, leads us to believe that a plugin EV of some type will be in the driveway of quite a few new car buyers. Nissan’s support of an electric car society only adds to the stress utility companies need to plan for.
Who’s going to pay for the seriously needed improvements and how? The end users will pay for them and direct usage billing is the best means.
Commercial users will share the load, of course, but why? We’re the ones creating a greater demand.
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:24 pm)Interesting discussion regarding the utilities.
Recently I’ve seen a “Smart Grid” presentation at a conference that was basically claiming that due to the potential capability for electric cars to be controlled to “back-feed” into the grid (assuming they were plugged in of course) in the event of major power outage, that it might be considered as an issue of “National Security!”
Still not sure if I buy all THAT but “the numbers” appeared to be there in terms plug-in vehicles possibly becoming a potential power source . (ND assuming a EV/EREV/PHEV sales reach planned potentials)
FWIW the data collected by the car itself (and shared with it’s owner via myvolt.com) should be all most will ever need to evaluate “usage” (and more). I certainly don’t know what data the utility could harvest via a “smart charger” that the car couldn’t know already. (Other than the actual “rate” used during the charge I guess)
WopOnTour
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:28 pm)I hope Akerson can Make GM a game changer and make GM as competitive as foreign brands and bring GM back from the dead everybody would you have to agree with me? That’s what I’m hoping in the next few years don’t give up Akerson bring as many good ideas as in safety,durability, great features and of course make your cars beyond fuel efficient compare to the competitors and as well bring out as many electric cars and plug-in hybrids as you can now that would be a true revolution in the American electric revolution for sure.
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:49 pm)Hope it is not too late for you to find this response. Some people have accused me all day of whining and being paranoid. Actually, I am not paranoid at all. Our constitution was forged in compromise and that is where our new grid, and the billing to go with it, should be headed. Honestly, it wasn’t like I was sitting there with this stew of anger over my demand billing struggles. It was actually your comment that made the concept coalesce for me. I realized that this obsolete system would have to be reworked to deal with our EVs and (since it took me two freakin months to get FPL to come out and change my meter so I could actually get credit for the usage I was giving them) your meter comment was like a slap in the face.
When I discussed all of this garbage with the solar contractor, the one who should have known more about it than me, I found that I was doing the explaining. The solar industry should have its own advocates in the process, but it appears to me that even those advocates don’t have the big picture. We here in EV land will be the first to feel the effects (good and bad) of how these monopolies will respond to something REVOLUTIONARY in the utility industry. Lots of folks here are not just thinking about cars (significant users of electricity), but about being suppliers (via PV), as well. I am here to tell you that the system is not ready to handle us yet and we need to make sure our voices are in the mix as the bugs get worked out.
Night all…
Aug 16th, 2010 (11:52 pm)The vehicle to grid flow is a possibility for batteries once they have gone beyond their usable life in the car. In significant numbers, perhaps v2g might be needed at one point. In which case, I believe that the utility company would pay the EV owner for the right to use the spare battery capacity and take it when needed. This type of plan would help offset the cost of an EV more significantly than directly billing utilities per kw. The more important aspect of v2g is for a utility to be able to economically plan for peak output without a major investment in backup generators.
Smart meters have gone beyond mechanically metering hourly usage to a point where 2 way electronic data communication is possible. How that data is secured and transmitted is what’s keeping utilities from venturing beyond using them for just supplying an accurate bill.
Now to go further, electric vehicles are part of commercial building plans, not just for placing plugs into the garage, but what type of data communication will be needed for each of these parking spaces. Will the smart meter integrate electronic data based billing or will each meter also have an IP address? Also will v2g be a possibility for new construction?
The Volt and Leaf aren’t on the road yet and already they represent a significant impact on our utility and construction plans being made now.
Aug 17th, 2010 (12:38 am)Those numbers has just been shot down by Statik direct from Nissan so someone from Nissan is talking to him.
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/08/17/local-dealer-only-3300-leafs-to-us-by-marchspecial-cities-first-nissan-news-to-us/
Aug 17th, 2010 (2:13 am)As far as I know, there are already rules in place to limit gouging by the electric monopoly: if a proposed increase in rates would result in a higher-than-allowed ROE, then the full request should be denied by the Utility Commission.
If a prospective electric vehicle purchaser is adequately concerned about the rate risk, then the Volt’s power source diversification at least provides some comfort.
Aug 17th, 2010 (3:09 am)“Prof. Ein-Eli estimates that in three to four years, silicon-air batteries can be made more powerful, as well as rechargeable. In 10 years, he says, it may be possible to build “electric car batteries made from silicon”
This from last year. At this point they are not even rechargeable.
Much more development has been made on zinc-air, but again still many years from reality.
My big hope is for lithium-sulfur see: http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batteries&id=24758 I hope they investigate membranes to solve the dis-similar electrolyte problem and announce a success soon. Even if successful this would still be years to commercial reality.
GM has a major battery research lab and is constantly evaluating all batteries on the market and keeping up on new tech. They may even be working on lithium-air batteries, although I think this is even farther in the future than silicon-air.
Aug 17th, 2010 (3:42 am)Can someone please show me a reliable internet source that supports this claim? I’ve read that it’s not so much tarriffs but a sense of nationalism that’s been pounded into the heads of the Japanese. When I read that their population is very likely to shrink by at least a quarter over the next 50 years I can’t say I blame them for wanting to buy from their own country.
I think a big reason for GM increasing sales and profits over the last year or so has been nationalism. I just wish I knew all the facts.. Just because a company is “American” doesn’t mean it’s the best company for Americans. I’m not saying GM, Ford, and Chrysler aren’t what we should be buying, I’m just saying if a Japanese company has 5 factories here in the states producing cars sold all over North America and parts of Europe, and an American company has more factories all over Europe, Mexico and Asia selling cars to us, who is really the better company for America? Perhaps it’s the American company because the stock may be owned by a majority of Americans (Sadly though the small percentage of the wealthiest). Perhaps we should start thinking a little out of the box, I’d like to see the stats. Amount of dollars paid to employees who work in the U.S. This would include factory workers, the tarriffs we charge for imports, and the salaries to dealers and sales people. It has to be a much higher number to us than it does to Japan, simply because of the amount of cars sold in each country. I still won’t buy another Japanese car until I find the truth however.
To take it a step further, forget nationalism, forget countries, we’re all human beings. The best thing for our country would probably be a government run by the people, not the politicians with the most money who get into office. Let’s face it, if you’re rich you have a much better chance of getting elected. At least on a local level. Democracy isn’t democracy unless a person with 30,000 in his bank account really has an equal chance at being elected as a person with 500 million.
The point of my rant is, sit back and look at the big picture everybody. It’s why I like the Volt. Cars aren’t going away. Even though I know there are toxins being pumped into the air just by making it, I also know that once it’s made, in the place of another car, I can power it by spinning blades moved by the wind.
Am I proud that it has been developed by an American company? Yes.
But would I not buy it if it had been made by Toyota or Nissan? No.
Aug 17th, 2010 (4:38 am)After the 45,000 2012 Volts sell out in 90 days. It will be wise for GM to produce more regardless of who is in charge. Wonder how the 2012 President of the United States will feel about EV tax credits?
=D-Volt
Aug 17th, 2010 (4:58 am)More disturbing news?
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/international/europe/view.bg?articleid=1273580&srvc=rss
Aug 17th, 2010 (5:31 am)If anyone could get an inside track, I knew it was Statik (and of course Lyle).
Congrats!
Be well,
Tagamet
/off to work bbl
Aug 17th, 2010 (5:41 am)It’s not a LINK, but just yesterday I listened to Donald Trump interviewed about how China and Japan play us as trade patsies. Granted, it’s just his opinion, but he seems pretty knowledgeable.
Be well,
Tag
/anyone hear disturbing news about a union vote (or lack of it) closing an auto(?) plant in the midwest? ~600 jobs. Hourly was only $15 something/hour or some such. I only caught a glimpse.
Aug 17th, 2010 (6:30 am).
http://www.ibj.com/jd-norman-deal-sets-off-power-struggle-among-auto-workers-/PARAMS/article/21634
Aug 17th, 2010 (6:32 am).
You could look at the percentage of US (or North American) content for each car, as this number is tabulated. It is a reasonably good proxy for where the money is going.
Aug 17th, 2010 (6:41 am)This pops up from time to time. I don’t think THE solution lies in A solution or just one phenomenal tech. It will probably come from multiple techs, just as the Volt relies on a high power battery and a relatively low power ICE for range extension. I could see a high power small battery developing for the transient loads (@1KWH capable of @60KW) and a lower power, higher energy dense battery for the range. With a little more energy capacity, say 16KWH useable, the range extender could be shrunk to a @20kw capable source and still have full performance in nearly every situation with intelligent use of “mountain mode”.
Aug 17th, 2010 (6:54 am)I have heard similar (or worse) stories from Michigan guys with solar. There are many different rate schedules and some of them have some very subtle hidden effects. One would be tempted to call them “unintended consquences”, but that might be too kind.
+1
Aug 17th, 2010 (6:56 am)FLMark, it might be a good idea to open a thread in a forum on the topic of electric rate schedules and some of the benefits and pitfalls to be aware of.
Aug 17th, 2010 (7:09 am)The data comes from a Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) Omnibus Household Survey, 78% of US commuters drive 40 miles or less each day. In figure 2, the mileage listed is one way, so for a daily commute you have to double the mileage.
http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/entire.html
Aug 17th, 2010 (7:34 am)That number is kind of insignificant for the number of new cars purchased each year. You’re absolutely right about the Volt selling well no matter the CEO, but what about the Voltec expansion? How far will it go? Another CEO that doesn’t support the Volt can easily kill cars like the Converj, MPV5, and Volt gen 2, and these are just the cars we know of.
Aug 17th, 2010 (8:35 am)That’s a debate I’ve had around the grill. Should you buy a Honda Odyssey with 78% domestic content or a Pontiac G8 made in Australia. The Honda is an exception. I love the Hyundai commercial that shows a Sonata being painted. There isn’t a screen shot of any laborer in the picture at all. An assembly plant in the US that was built using a billion or two of tax breaks and direct exemptions but is still using parts manufactured elsewhere does not benefit this country nearly as much as a manufacturing plant does. The good point you’ve made for Toyota is the 5 domestic manufacturing plants here. But Toyota also owns 11 plants in China. How much made in China content is a part of a Japanese car.
The domestic manufacturers have to compete on price point and manufacture elsewhere but still manage to keep a significant number of people employed well beyond any other company doing business in the US. The Volt alone is supported by a GM battery plant, GM engine plant, domestic engineering and design offices and so forth. Plus the car will be exported worldwide.
The quality of a car assembled by the UAW has been lacking. But once in a while we build cars that are reliable enough to compare to other assembly lines. I find them, buy them, and recommend them. The CTS is an excellent example. It’s no less reliable than a BMW 3 series. Hopefully the V will prove to be as exceptional as the M.
Japan is overly protecting their domestic market and shame on them. If Japan used the same tariff structure that we use, just what vehicles would cut it in the Japanese showroom and at what quantities? The Volt is overkill for the average Japanese driver (Japanese vehicles roll up less than half the mileage we do). I too, would like to know just what a consumer would have to pay for a Volt as well as an F-150 in Japan above exchange rate differences.
Aug 17th, 2010 (8:54 am)My impression is that the demand-pricing issue is directly related to the fact that the grid operates on a minute-to-minute basis, with zero storage capacity. Peaking plants and other sources run on standby, to make sure that in the next second, the lights don’t flicker.
I lived in a country where that happened, often. Not good.
But a smart grid with integrated storage, if done right, might undermind the basis for demand pricing. Rather than the user being forced to “store the demand” or “level their demand”, the utilities will be incentivized or required to store energy in the grid, so that they are storing supply to meet peak demand. It is reasonable to suppose that storing supply in the grid will be a lot less expensive, once the grid is really smarter, than running a gas plant “in neutral” just to meet 15 minutes of peak demand that may or may not happen that day.
Which may be partial explanation for the utilities half-hearted enthusiasm in the smart grid–long term, their bread and butter demand pricing model may not survive the smart grid model.
Aug 17th, 2010 (11:02 am)The electric bill has, for the most part, been ignored except when there has been a high demand or in rare situations like yours. How usage and billing have been calculated for you is definitely too obsolete to be functional for an EV society that hopes to replace petroleum with electricity.
My point is now and has always been that the infrastructure needs to be improved first and foremost before peak and quick charging becomes a significant problem for utilities.
However public utility companies recover costs needs to be addressed just as you have. I don’t mean to trivialize your efforts, I’m simply saying that in general our electricity rates are low. Examining the bill in depth uncovers an apparent unfair method of covering costs, no doubt, but in the not too distant future we will reminisce the days of the 15 cent kwh just as we remember $0.39 for a gallon of gas.
The DTE dedicated meter is an excellent step in planning for electric cars, your caveat should be well heeded for any type of whole house billing otherwise.
Aug 17th, 2010 (12:10 pm)Although it was mostly off-topic from the previous day’s post I agree with your point of view on the electric companies.
Although the economic justification for EVs is flimsy at best, I’m afraid that once electric vehicles reach critical mass we will find that we have encountered an economic foe far worse than OPEC, and that is the electric companies.
At least OPEC has competitors like Canada; the electric companies are all monopolies that ask for and receive nearly everything they ask for from the Public Utility Commissions, and we will find overnight that electricity is not so cheap anymore.
It won’t take long before electricity is sold out of a “special” meter for EVs and it costs the equivalent of $4 a gallon. The dedicated DTE meter in Detroit should be perceived as a threat to cheap electricity used however you want to use it and it will only get worse. At least a person can go off-grid and make their own electricity. At least for now before they make that illegal.
Aug 17th, 2010 (1:07 pm)Some companies, e.g., BYD, are working on battery storage for the grid. People have even mentioned it as a use for old Volt and other electric car batteries.
Aug 17th, 2010 (4:08 pm)This is the paranoia I am referring to.
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Aug 18th, 2010 (12:18 am)Yes sir you have a good sense of it. And keep in mind that the grid is a legal monopoly only because it was deemed a “public utility” back 100 years ago when first built. Now we have jockeying for huge future utility profits based on the exaggerated need for more capacity and “smart grids.” DOE has determined that fully 70% of the entire Light Duty vehicle fleet in the U.S. can be readily fueled by the EXISTING grid if the vehicles are overnight-charged PHEVs.
http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.aspx?id=204
But some people will want to charge daytime and for that the rate structure is already higher and will obviously go higher still. A viable solution is to remove some burden from the grid. Which is what distributed energy production accomplishes. It also greatly increases National Security by de-centralizing electric production and obviating ancient overhead power lines subject to constant compromise by weather and wear.
TRANSMITTING electricity through wires is a century OLD technology. Today we can generate energy locally utilizing Combined Heat and Power technology that makes heat AND electric power in residential basements. Replace your old boiler/water heater with one unit that efficiently uses a single fuel for heat AND electric energy. Far fetched? Not compared to rebuilding an ancient wired grid system with security vulnerability and huge maintenance cost.
CHP, gentlemen is 21st century technology that produces new manufacturing JOBS; increased energy security and energy independence without having to build any new power plants. Simply converting one third all residential homes to CHP energy production would eliminate the need for any new power plants to meet EV demands. Distributed energy will not end utilities’ monopoly on grids – but it will provide new JOBS, and energy SECURITY and cleaner air quality. It’s a win, win, win.
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Aug 18th, 2010 (12:40 am)Don’t utilities plan for home owners now?? What does this mean?