Rather than oil companies, electric cars rely on electric utility companies to supply them with power. Not only does this give electric cars the advantage of running on home-grown domestic energy, but can offer a considerable cost savings over gasoline.
Utility rates throughout the country vary anywhere from 10 to 20 cents per kwh, which would allow the Volt to travel 40 miles on from 80 cents to $1.60. Some regions over lower overnight rates, as there is often excess production caapcity at those times, and cannot strain the grid which may be at or close to capacity during daytime hours.
Detroit Edison (DTE) has announced it is the first utility company in the nation to offer EV owners special electric car rates, after receiving approval from Michigan regulators. DTE is Michigan’s largest utility company and will provide the low rate and other incentives to up to 2500 customers though 2012.
EV owners will get a free 240-v charging station, dedicated meter, and $2500 towards the cost of installing the station. Owners will then pay either a low nighttime rate, or a fixed $40 per month. The company is considering the program an experiment to determine what pricing structure is most appropriate for EV owners, and to examine the effect of EV charging on the grid.
“We view — as do a lot of people — electric vehicles as something of the future,” said Edward Falletich, manager for pricing at Detroit Edison. “What this does is let us be privy to how much power is used to charge a vehicle.”
“We need to better understand the customers,” he said. “We just have very little information on electric vehicles.”
DTE has been working closely with GM to develop this program. “We’re seeing utility companies like DTE take a progressive step to incentivize people to drive electrically,” said Volt spokesperson Rob Peterson. “They give customers more reason to go out and test-drive an electric vehicle.”
These 2500 free chargers are in addition the the already announced 4400 free chargers Volt customers will be eligible for through DOE supported programs from charger companies Coulomb Technologies and EcoTality.
GM is expected to announce its Volt charger installation partner shortly.
Source (Detroit News) and (Detroit Press)
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:21 am)Seems like a slippery slope to me. When they start charging road use taxes, this is where they will figure out how much you are driving. I like the 110v cord myself. No meter.
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:24 am)How do you find out if you are eligible for one of the free chargers? Does that come into play when you get a call from your Chevy Rep after your order?
+18
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:31 am)I am with Eco on this, 120v works for a Volt, while a Leaf or any other BEV pretty much needs a 240v hookup. The whole road tax issue is going to be an interesting can of worms. But the important part of that article is the fact that we will be using domestically produced electricity, not foreign oil. Other than Canada, I don’t like a lot of the oil exporters out there, I would rather not send them my money. We send $800,000,000 a day overseas to pay for our oil imports, that has distorted our economy for much too long.
+9
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:34 am)Well, how much it is going to cost me to recharge has become a non-issue at this point as I have officially given up on the Volt. Obviously this was not an easy decision and was not reached lightly or overnight. Many factors went into this decision including the obvious…price, availability, and release locations, as well as build numbers. Another factor was GM not using the “unofficial” waiting list, as I was number 647-too bad
On the bright side, this will be one more volt for the rest of you. I believe I will purchase a used 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid. I believe at this time when all factors are considered, this is the best route for me. I will continue to read this site and support the Volt. I wish the rest of you the best in trying to aquire one, and thanks to Lyle for keeping us informed and forming the unofficial waiting list. Too bad GM decided not to follow up on it.
Thanks Lyle,
Hawk
+5
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:39 am)Great news!
First of all, that means there is a better chance of obtaining a free charger for people throughout the country, because there is suddenly 2500 less people wanting those free chargers.
Second of all, this will definitely speed up electric vehicle adoption. It lessens that barrier to entry into buying a electric car. Free charger equals less excuse..
Third of all, there will be a perception change. Far too many people think electric cars are expensive to charge. As numbers show, it actually costs less to charge a car than to fill up with gas on a cost per mile basis. Word of mouth will spread. Think this: 40 miles at up to $1.60, or a comparable high efficiency ICE car would cost $3.00 (for a gallon of gas).
Fourthly, this really helps the electric car infrastructure in the country take shape fast. No matter what, people will not feel comfortable with a limited range without a energy refuel easily accessible. This of course, applies more to EVs like Nissan Leaf than EREV vehicles like Chevy Volt.
Fifth and finally, who doesn’t like free stuff?
Well, time to end my comment. I will return at night to see what beautiful comments you guys made. Now to enjoy my 15 mile bike commute…
+5
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:51 am)Q:
What is the only car in the world that can take you unlimited miles on gasoline, or by plugging it in just once a night take you over 14,000 miles a year using 0 gallons of gasoline?
A:
The Chevrolet Volt
(Feel free to use it GM marketing people)
I can see the question on the left side of an interstate and the answer on the right.
+4
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:59 am)–
It was with some sadness that I read your note, though I fully understand the reasoning. It remains a bit of a mystery to me as to why gm chose not to follow up on the unofficial waiting list, a fantastic opportunity for them. It might be simply confusion within the corporation because of the continuing rollover of people in marketing. In any event, I hope you do continue to read and post, and that as time goes by a good opportunity to get a Volt comes your way.
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:13 am)Enjoy the ride…
+5
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:20 am)I think pretty much because it WAS unofficial.
+4
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:26 am)“Detroit Edison (DTE) has announced it is the first utility company in the nation to offer EV owners special electric car rates”
This should say DTE is the first utility in Michigan to offer such rates.
There are several utilities in California that already offer low “time of use” rates for electric vehicles owners and I would guess this is true in some other states as well. For example, Pacific Gas & Electric offers the E-9 rate across Northern California with overnight rates as low as $.051 per KWh.
+8
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:30 am)So let me get this right… Even though you will be putting the same amount of wear and tear on the road system as anyone else, you feel it is OK to avoid paying any sort of road tax??
I’m a big EV supporter but avoiding road taxes has never been one of the reasons why…
+7
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:32 am)Thanks for the good word! Us Canadians are a friendly and non-aggressive bunch, but we are still willing to take your oil money.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:40 am)Wow, $2500 for installation! Let’s see run one cable from the fuse panel to the garage. Add breaker in fuse panel. Mount charger on wall and connect. Depending on difficulty of running wire this could be 2 to 8 hours of work. Even at 8 hours that is about $300/hr. Are there conditions on this? Do you have to prove it involves more major work like replacing the fuse panel with a larger one because you had to upgrade the service to the house, to collect the maximum amount?
For the Tesla (70 amps) upgrading the service to the house might be realistic, but not for the Volt (15 amps).
I did have to have my service upgraded from 100 amps to 200 amps about 10 years ago. Had to phone several electricians to get one at a decent price. Most wanted $3k just because they didn’t want to bother with a small job. Hired one for $1000, included new panel and he finished the job and was gone by 3:00 pm. Not bad for a day’s work.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:42 am)Both the Volt and LEAF driver will drive about 40 miles per day, it will take the same amount of time to charge using 110V.. but you are right, the important part is that we will be using domestically produced fuel.
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:43 am)This dedicated meter is a pretty good step in understanding how EV owners will be charging at home, but what about away from home.
How smart will the meters be?
Will the charge data within the Volt, or any plug in, be available to the utility?
Will charge history, home or otherwise, be tracked per individual car?
How much information will be gathered by hard data and how much by survey?
I would think this info will be invaluable to utilities to best plan major revisions to transmission lines as well as to the generators themselves.
Good job DTE.
Next step is to allow this meter to monitor a second channel of electricity for the rest of the home. If an EV owner takes advantage of off peak rates for the car will the family also get into the habit of doing the same for anything else?
Charge stations could use their own monitors as well. I would like to see if they can develop their own way of storing electricity off peak to sell peak.
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:45 am)Actually in parts of the country the electrical rates are much lower than 10 cents/KWH. Here in southern Idaho we pay 5-7 cents/KWH which equates to around 50 cents to charge the Volt.
+7
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:49 am)You are correct!
Road taxes area necessary fact. No taxes … no roads. The issue is always fairness. It appears big trucks with huge weights pay less while adding excess wear and tear on the roads. Electric cars will have some weight impact but much lower. Both need to be taxed according to the amount of road stress. If taxes cannot be collected by a gas tax (as an indicator of road use) then there will have to be other options….. or as noted above “no road taxes … no roads”
+4
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:52 am)I am the type who is willing to pay my part (being Canadian and all), but half of the appeal of driving an electric car is to save some money on “fill-ups”. Where I live, my electricity is 6 cents per kWh, so it’s almost half of the lowest price Lyle quoted. But part of the reason why gas is so expensive is because of all the darn taxes on it. After converting from our weird liters and colourful Canadian dollars to U.S. gallons and dollars, I’m paying about $4 per gallon. And premium is about 30 cents extra per gallon.
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:57 am)I have DTE as my electric provider. For over 30 years we have had time of day rates. It works VERY WELL. We try to use the most power at off peak times. We are on our second “smart meter.”
If DTE provides a power option for electric cars with an addition of smart meter they will in deed gather a lot of data. Their “gift to us” will be subsidized installation and free equipment for the right to gather that information. The choice is ours.
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:00 am)Glad to see the electric utilities starting to see the prize – getting all of the oil company’s customers!
Home-grown renewable energy coupled to large mobile batteries. Match made in heaven.
All we need now is another oil price spike to seal the deal. Heck, what am I thinking? Americans forget in less than one year and go right back to their SUV driving ways. Get up, run into a wall, get knocked out, get up…
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:05 am)Road taxes are a fact of life. Exception for EVs is only temporary until they come up with a system to deal with it. In Ontario we have to get an emissions test every two years, and mileage is checked at this point. Also have to report mileage when renewing license plate. With this information the government could figure out your road tax. You probably wouldn’t want to pay one large lump sum every two years so they would probably allow you to make more frequent payments. If they did collect the tax via electricity used it would probably be fair as bigger and heavier vehicles use more electricity and create more wear on roads. Adding the tax to the electricity automatically makes the payments easier as it does not become a separate bill, but if you don’t pay this way, you will get billed another way.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:06 am)A discussion on your utility rates:
As I have written before, I have solar PV on both home and office. It was business rates that got me to learn more about utility rates in general, as businesses are normally subject to a ‘demand’ charge (the RATE at which you consume energy over short spans). Now that you are all embarking on focusing on your electrical usage, I would advise you to all go online and find your utilities DETAILED tariff schedule. You should find it enLIGHTening (pun intended).
I am a customer of Florida Power and Light and after dealing with both them and Florida’s Public Service Commission (an oxymoron, to say the least), I realized that the only one to help me would be me. I learned that there are HUNDREDS of rate schedules (they even have ones just for streetlights!). Of course, you will want to find the ones that apply to residential customers. Once you have narrowed your options to the ones that apply to you, look more closely at the differences.
In my case, I did find the rate schedule that meters by time of day and would have switched immediately EXCEPT for the big gotcha- I would have to spend several hundred dollars to get a new meter installed. I noted that my solar would be of SOME assistance in lowering the bill (if there is indeed a bi-directional meter that ALSO meters by time, which I do not know). However, the peak times (for the most expensive rates) were displaced by a few hours from peak solar intensity. You can tell that the rates were set for when most people had the air conditioning running. As for me, my miniscule bills (with solar PV) made the savings from time-of-day rates just a pittance compared to what a new meter would cost.
Now back to how this applies to you. Let’s say that the Detroit model is widely adopted. First, I think the flat fee is probably a bust. $40 translates to over 10kwh per day EACH AND EVERY DAY. Until you have multiple EV’s, it is unlikely you will use that much. Next, if your utility is going to pick up the tab for the new meter, you should probably go for it. Indeed, after you learn (from the tariff schedule) what peak times are, you will alter your habits (most notably by recharging your EV at night) to better conform to using electricity. You might, for example, run the dishwasher and do laundry when rates were cheapest. You could also buy a programmable thermostat that enables you to regulate when your AC is running.
While there is much more to this concept, the point is that, until now, you have probably taken your electric bill for granted and assumed ‘it is what it is’. Now that you are embarking into a major modification of how you use electricity, you will be your own best friend if you learn more about the types of billing available to best suit your needs.
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:08 am)Thanks for that info. Does your meter still need someone to come to the house to read it or is it electronic data capable.
I would think that the utilities would like to have more data directly available. With all of the monitoring data available within the Volt will GM and OnStar have sole access to this data? DTE is offering this program with development help from GM.
And flmark, you’re dead right on with the expense of installing an hourly meter.
It’s not cheap for utilities to upgrade the meters. Your seeing a direct impact of what EV’s will have on our actual bill. Without government incentives how quickly would anyone put an EV in the driveway?
That’s why I praise the DTE company for the offer. Their program will go a long way in understanding the direct impact of driving gas free.
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:11 am)Since big trucks use a LOT more gas (or diesel fuel) than your car they pay much more tax per mile.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:12 am)The offer of free chargers makes me think of what it’s like buying a printer these days: the equipment is getting cheaper by the day, but you get reamed on the ink. Smart move by DTE to give away chargers that probably don’t cost that much in order to sell you the juice.
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:19 am)Being able to control the load is great benefit to electric utilities. During periods of high demand or when they are switching substations etc. they can adjust the cars’ charging appropriately to improve safety and service. The only incentive they can offer is to reduce rates. Currently with the dumb meters they have no way to determine where the electricity goes in the home.
The way the utilities determine you bill is they record the power flow through the substation. From this record they figure out a profile for the entire neighborhood. Then they read your meter and multiply it by the profile. This assumes you use your electricity the exact same way as your neighbor. But what if you’re using extra amp-hours to charge your car at night? They have no idea of your usage so you will wind up paying full daytime rates for some of the electricity going into your car.
Currently the best way to pay the best rates for charging your EV is to ask for a Time Of Use (TOU) meter. Many utilities are not willing to provide these more expensive meters or deal with the more complex billing for individual homes.
Having a much smarter grid is the solution. But there is 100 years worth of legacy equipment out there. It will cost in some cases significant amounts money to replace. For example I know of one utility that has over 800,000 old mechanical meters that have to be read by a man with a data recorder, on foot, often having to go into individual buildings. They’re planning to replace them with electronic ones and a radio network to download the data but the cost is so high the project keeps getting pushed back every year.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:20 am)Perhaps, just the not-invented-here response. Still, it was (would have been) an opportunity to place the corporation’s product in the hands of people who would be a knowledgeable, free sales force for subsequent sales. No doubt many people getting early Volts in the present allocation scheme will do that too, but likely not as high a percentage. In the short term it doesn’t matter, as the car is sold out for a while, but over time it would have been an advantage, perhaps.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:21 am)I would call that false advertising…
First, 14,000 mi/yr on pure electric, would imply you never drove more than 40 miles between charges.
Second, if you live in cold climates, the gas engine will come on to condition the battery.
Third, stale gas means your going to need to use the gas up in the tank periodically. GM has already stated that the car will be smart enough to know how “old” your gas is.
While I think you can significantly reduce your use of gasoline with the Volt, zero use per year is unrealistic.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:29 am)Herm, most days you would be right about the mileage, but on your long distance driving days (mine happen about 3 or 4 times a month) a BEV will use more power than the 120v will be able to recharge overnight.
Would a BEV absolutely need a 240v? No. But would I want one if I had a pack with more than 10 or 12 kWh of useable capacity? Probably.
YMMV
Gary, I think most Americans are fully cognizant of how lucky we are to have Canada to the north of us. It is too bad that OPEC isn’t comprised of a dozen Canadas! Hmm… Now there is a thought. Saudi Arabia, Iran, the UAE, Bahrain all populated with Canadians… I see a huge future there for Moosehead and Labatts!
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:30 am){EV owners will get a free 240-v charging station, dedicated meter…}
I’m surprised here about the dedicated meter. I have not dig in yet the subject but is there any 240V (home purpose) smart charger approved for billing purpose out there? Unless it requires to be link to a “smart grid” to be operational… I have some homework to do on this one.
#15 is a good post.
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:32 am)Every state is different, BUT, the tariff schedules will probably show that your billing rate has little to do with your immediate neighbors. With FPL, the rates are definitely the same throughout the state. As recommended, go online and look up your utilites rate schedules to see what options are available to you.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:35 am)It would have been a fantastic opportunity if they had decided to produce enough Volts to meet demand, and at a lower price, instead of this very limited roll-out. Since they have limited the quantity, they also wanted to be picky about who they sold too. Stated that they wanted vocal and public early adopters, TV and movie stars, sports figures, politicians etc. To encourage this they chose limited areas and high price.
Our list would not have met their qualifications. All this is good business sense, and when you think of it, somewhat daring. If you were really worried about problems and recalls, wouldn’t you rather sell to enthusiastic early adopters who were not well known? And wouldn’t tell everybody about their problems.
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:40 am)The feds and many states are giving a massive subsidy to EVs. They then want to turn around and figure out how to make sure the EVs get taxed.
How about lowing the subsidy slightly and letting the lack of use tax be the rest of the subsidy? It would be more efficient that way…. unless you look at the government as a make work project.
-1
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:45 am)Congratulations, you’ve discovered one of the distortions used by solar proponents. Solar doesn’t match the point of peak load. It is close, but off by a few hours.
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:47 am)Gary,
How long do you think it will take before the Government (Canadian or American) starts to tax the electrical rate differently based on the number of cars switching off gasoline?
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:50 am)Aw, I have to eat my words. Forgot about the “dedicated meter”. This certainly costs a lot more than just installing an outlet. In fact it also requires its own distribution panel (admittedly a small one). This is where all the cost is.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:51 am)Luv the Volt but probably can’t buy one. PG&E has marginal rates in the 30 to 40 cent range for many houses in the central valley of CA. they need to develop a special electric car rate with cost plus a reasonable return (probably about 17 cents in CA) for it to pencil out. Could the fellow in Idaho please send some legislators our way: 6 to 7 cents is remarkable.
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:01 am)In the rush to create green electricity, utilities, especially in California, have spent a lot on wind, solar, and geothermal. All this is good until you look at the costs and these get passed on to the customer. This is exasperated by government mandated feed-in tariffs which set high prices and do not allow the utilities ability to negotiate lower rates. This is why I keep pushing LFTRs, as this technology can provide cheap, reliable, on-demand base load power with no radio-active waste problems.
Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors were invented in the 1960s at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. They ran one for almost 5 years. LFTRs use cheap thorium, are inherently safe, do not produce long term radio-active waste and were abandoned because they are not suitable for making bombs. See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk
and
http://energyfromthorium.com/
Although the principles are proven, there is still some research required for the best materials to have long 50 year plus life. This should be our highest priority to solve our energy and pollution problems.
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:09 am)Utilities are switching to smart meters, many that dont need a meter reader to come up to your house. It would be good if these meters had the ability to vary the cost by the time of the day.. You could run your water heater, Volt and pool filters at night.. Its primitive to have a separate meter just for the Volt.
If I lived in Detroit I would wire the both the Volt and the water heater to that circuit
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:25 am)You’d be defeating the purpose of the meter.
A two way electonic data capable meter would be best to monitor all data capable appliances in the home.
Until that capability comes to the utility companies, the DTE program is a pretty good method of gathering data to prepare for an electric transportation program.
The time for utility companies to plan for expansion is long overdue.
Seems like the DTE meter is actually a timed dumb meter and not what we hope will be the smart meter in the near future. ConEd of NY has a pretty good pilot program in Queens, but I don’t think the DTE meter is modeled after that.
The Queens program expense is about $6 million. The DTE program is less and more direct for EV data.
It wouldn’t be a good idea to plug anything other than the car into this line, but the temptation will be pretty strong.
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:35 am)..
You make some good points, so maybe that’s the reasoning they used. The plan as adopted also has the advantage of sticking with an existing distribution system, so in that respect minimizing the need for further changes or explanations.
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:42 am).
Such capability is available and in use in many locations in the USA, Canada, and elsewhere.
Metering is well advanced.
http://www.sensus.com/Module/Catalog/ElectricCatalog
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:43 am)I think what a lot of writers ignore is that electricity itself is not an energy source. Electricity is just a way to transport energy. All this domestically produced electricity needs an energy source. That source can be domestic hydro, coal, wind or solar. It can also be imported oil.
.
So just because the electricity generators are in the US does not mean you are getting away from imported oil.
.
Also, I’m very hesitant to give the power company insight into how I’m using electricity. All these smart meters and day/night billing will ultimately be used to punish people by charging them MORE during the peak hours, not to give discounts for overnight use.
+5
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:43 am)I feel your disappointment Hawk–I’m sorry you won’t be able to have your volt just yet. From everything I have heard though, the Ford Fusion is a great vehicle and you are making a good choice. Also, you *will* be reducing gas consumption. That is good!
I’ll tell you a little bit of my story. 2 years ago we replaced our aging little beater car with a new Prius. We were primarily interested in reducing gas usage and fuel cost as gas then was near its peak and it was the best option available at the time. We instantly reduced our gas use by a whopping 50% from our current small “economy” car. What a feeling! Now what I really had my sights set on was the Volt for so many reasons. The question was when would be the best time for us to buy one. I felt realistically it would take some years for the cost and technological refinement to stabilize in the Volt so accepted the fact that I had to be patient. Also, I knew I couldn’t afford a $40,000 car (what it was estimated at the time) and didn’t want a burn rate of 25 mpg for the next 5 or so years so as a bridge we bought the Prius. It’s a huge reduction in gas usage and bought us 8-9 years to watch for the right time to take the next step. I’m saving my pennies and looking forward to even better technology advances when the time is right. With our limited resources, this seemed the best compromise in saving fuel and reaching our ultimate goal of driving electric.
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:53 am)NPR Science Friday Devotes Hour to BEVs This Week
Link to site with audio file download
http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/201008132
The conversation was civil between the host and representatives from GM and Nissan.
Caught one thing which kinda surprised me. The host asked each representative from GM and Nissan how many orders/deposits they have taken and the GM representative said he could not share that information.
Does anyone have a sense (now that pricing and dealer ordering is now open) how many orders GM has taken on the Volt since the price announcement?
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:57 am)I’ve been following the Volt since 2007 and on this site since I dont known when, but I NEVER assumed Lyle’s waiting list would be used by GM. Actually, I haven’t even signed up on it (just never got around to it). It’s agood way to show support, but in hindsight, maybe Lyle should have made the list “I like the Chevy Volt” instead of an unofficial wait list. Maybe less people would be upset now. It really seems to be a sore spot for many.
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:58 am)May a web meter can be used as substitute (if customer already have home internet acces) until a real smart grid (two way) being in place, to monitor (if not integrated in) the charger itself? Not all metering equipement are approved / authorised for invoicing.
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:02 pm)http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf
http://www.pge.com/about/environment/pge/electricvehicles/index.shtml
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:03 pm)I’m sorry to hear that you don’t think you can swing a Volt but sometimes waiting a bit works out better in the end. If EVs weren’t available where I am, and I needed a new car, my first look would be at the Fusion. Having said that, getting really good MPG isn’t a perfect substitute for driving electric, but hang in there — lots of new options will show up and prices will drop.
Keep us appraised of how this works out for you.
+6
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:07 pm)Instead of raising electricity taxes they should take the subsidies away from the oil companies. This money would have to filter back to the states. Yeah, gas prices may go up, but so what. Just recharge your car more. Gas cost too much for your company’s fleet of vehicles? Upgrade to a bunch of EV’s.
It just seems bassackwards to add extra tax to EV drivers so that people can buy cheap gas. And don’t feel too sorry for the semi-truck drivers, they do much more damage to the road than cars, they should pay for it.
Worried about prices of goods going up? Maybe people will start buying things more locally, instead of from China.
(I’ll add a disclaimer: This would be a gradual change, paced with technology, not wham-bam, overnight solution)
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:08 pm)There is some movement in this direction. Westinghouse with some partners has put up prize money, up to $100M I think, for entrepreneurs to come up with a good way to do this. I suggested that the company I work for should go after one of these prizes. Here is the problem as I see it and a general approach to the solution.
Smart meters are like a dedicated internet link and have lots of excess bandwidth. Westinghouse and others want to build smart appliances but need a reliable and simple method to communicate with the utilities. Obviously via the smart meter. So how do you ensure that this appliance is connected to this meter? You could have a wireless link in the appliance and at the meter but then it would require some set up so the meter knew it was talking to your refrigerator instead of your neighbors.
My solution is to use the ac wiring to carry the signal and identify that it only comes from the load direction of the meter. With the communications through the wiring, all you need to do is plug in the power, and just like USB, a protocol will be used to self-identify and no user setup is required.
Once this is all set up the smart appliance will turn itself off when electricity is expensive and back on when it is cheap. Adding additional information to the data stream like this an EV and rate of power used is trivial. This solution would not require a dedicated meter.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:11 pm)I forgot to mention…guess who pays for the smart meters? It’s not the utility company.
In Texas, the power company got approval to charge customers an extra $3 a month for the next 12 years to pay for the smart meters. And it’s not optional, you pay for the meters and will get one whether you want it or not.
Although in theory the smart meter could be used for the benefit of the consumer, I’m afraid that in the vast majority of cases it will not be. Instead it will be used as another tool to extract as much money as possible from the consumers.
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:18 pm)The single biggest step to reduce electrical usage would be to decouple transmission from power costs. Under this system the utility is paid for providing the transmission lines under one part of the tariff and for the power you use under another. For a consumer it doesn’t matter since you’re paying the same per kWh, but it removes the incentive for the utility to sell more. It’s going to get its money if its customers use a lot or a little. It also has the advantage of more clearly delineating the costs of supply power.
Since putting that system in place, CA has seen it’s electrical usage per person stay more or less flat, while in other states the per person consumption has steadily increased. The result is a big gap — for example, electrical consumption in TX is almost 3X that of CA.
Time of day meters are also a great idea — no argument there — but to be truly effective you have to address both the supply as well as the demand side of the equation.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:26 pm)..
So I was disappointed that gm did not make use of the list because I thought that GM itself lost an opportunity by not doing so. As did most all of us, I never understood gm to have an obligation to do anything with the list, as Lyle always was clear about it. Of course, some people with low numbers on the list ‘lost’ a hoped-for priority, but then again others benefited. As a whole, ‘customer’ issues perhaps have more to do with the total number to be built, rather than the allocation order. JMO, of course.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:27 pm)This is actually a very good deal. The charger and installation might cost as little as a $1000 but it might cost more — just depends on your panel and how far the line has to be run. If the garage is near the panel then the costs should be much lower than if it’s at the other end of the house.
Note that to the extent the electrical companies can have people charge at off-peak hours EVs will be a huge benefit to them and to the public. During off peak hours there is a ton of excess capacity — baseline production can’t be shut down and it’s terribly inefficient to shut down and then restart even gas power plants. Given that all the distribution is in place — and the costs of maintaining the distribution network usually far exceeds the cost of the electricity — the marginal cost of providing a kWh of power starts getting close to zero. This means that the margin for the utility is very high so it can offer that power at greatly reduced rates and still make more money than for its average operations.
Everyone benefits. Consumers get to run their EVs for far less than a conventional ICE vehicle. Utilities make money. And the average cost of providing power at peak periods also drops since the negligible cost of providing power for EVs reduces the average cost for all periods.
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:32 pm)+1 for all the point in your comment. Nicely put.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Given all the flack about dealer mark-ups, I see two things. One is that all the dealers with no or minimal mark up, max $2k, will have already or will soon be sold out. Those dealers holding out for large mark ups will wait until they have Volts in their possession before deciding on who the highest bidder is. Just because some have suggested $10k or $20k mark up doesn’t mean that someone will pay it, they are just fishing.
All this is beside the point, your question is how many has GM sold, not how many have dealers sold, and dealers are GM’s customers. I think I could be sure that all dealers who signed up to be Volt retailers have opted to get every Volt they can get their hands on. Therefor GM has already “sold” their 10,000 Volts. Same goes for the LEAF, absolutely no one has suggested that the first year’s production of either car will result in unsold inventory.
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:48 pm)DTE still comes by the house to read the meter. Strange but true. The meter changes the rate automatically. The weekends are low rate and the time of our rate changes are 11 AM to 7 PM. When we built the house 30 years ago the main source of heat was electric. So this time of day option made a lot of sense. I was told they do not offer this particular option now – we apparently are grandfathered but I think they have other plans… And with the Electric car announcement the options are obviously still alive.
I plan to look up as much info as possible along the lines FLMARK noted in #22.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:53 pm)Ontario almost completed their move by end 2010 to smart meters with ¨Time Of Use” or TOU capabilities. Not sure when we’ll see smart meters coming around here in Québec.
http://www.mei.gov.on.ca/en/energy/conservation/smartmeters/?page=powersmarter_time-of-use-pricing
http://www.ieso.ca/house/default.asp
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:56 pm)+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:08 pm)I think you miss the point on both accounts.
First EVs provide the possibility of pollution free and oil free driving. Electrical generation is slowly changing to better sources. If you stay with ICEs there is no progress in this direction.
Second, smart meters are coming to your house and business whether you like it or not. Of course you are right about the utilities doing it to make higher profit. But your fear of “insight” is not rational, this is the carrot side of the utility’s plans. If you refuse to provide this information, then you will be stuck paying highest rates. The whole point about monitor and control is to allow you to better deal with the minute by minute price fluctuations.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:15 pm)RoyH— You can’t rationalize with this one. And a few others. The meter could be free, the electricity could be free and the VOLT itself could be free, and he will still tell you the Prius is better.
I think they all work for the Toyota Dealer’s Association and they are so filled with PANIC that an American car maker has come up with a better system than their 10-year-old hybrid, that they just have to keep coming here and trying to convince us with their puke. They need to get over it.
The VOLT is about 100 days away!
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:31 pm)Didn’t they say November 10th? 87 days.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:34 pm)Hi Lyle: The standard 110 VAC Type B Outlet (NEMA 5-15) is rated 15 A at 125 VAC. But I keep seeing articles quoting 20 A charge load. Anyways, 110 VAC at 15 A for a representative 10 hr roughly comes out at 1.5 kW/hr x the cost per kWh. Here (Alameda Cal.) the third tier cost is $.19/ kWh. The monthly cost/mo cited don’t compute.
Now we’ve been talking about Type B Outlet made infamous by the art-clip 230 mpg characterization. VOLT owners might know 110 VAC outlets can be installed for higher loads. I mentioned this because the 30 A outlet version is more efficient – as its twisted to lock the plug into the receptacle. There’s also a 50 A version. The 30 A outlet is standard stuff at any electrical supply house. Not expensive. The 50 A is quite expensive. (I had both on my boat c. Stone Age.)
If your home is 20 A rated 110 VAC wired to Type B outlets, very common, consider an upgrade to a 30 A twist-loc. If you upgrade your outlet to a 30 A outlet make certain its done by a licensed contractor. The idea is this: The 30 A outlet will run hardly luke warm. Whereas the Type B Outlet even at a modest 15 A will feel warm to the touch. Note: If your plug feels hot to the touch – you’re loosing power – heat means voltage drop. And that’s the point. (Your contractor will set up VOLT supplied cable to adapt to either outlet. Then again maybe VOLT has this option in place.) I used this system on board for over ten years – if for any reason this isn’t appropriate for VOLT – please check me.
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:36 pm)Or just be quiet about it. That would work too!
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:39 pm)Another reason why it’s best to use a licensed contractor is that, if you don’t, and there is a problem which is even arguably related to the installation, your home owners insurance won’t cover it.
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:47 pm)Installing a higher amperage plug will not gain hardly anything. First the Volt is set up for 15 amps, and as far as I know it cannot be changed. OTOH Tesla has options for various amperages from 15 amps to 70. The only way to shorten Volt charge time is by going to 220 volts instead of 110. This is still at 15 amps. Second it will be illegal to change the cord. You could do it, but it is doubtful an electrician would risk loosing his license over this.
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:47 pm)This is beautiful.
Electric companies teaming up with car companies to promote & advance the next generation of automotive technology, the Serial Plug-In Hybrid.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:51 pm)It’s been a while since I set the countdown timer on my website. I’m not sure if the ‘launch date’ changed or not. We should see about getting an official update posted here.
Aug 15th, 2010 (2:00 pm)AFIK the date never changed. It was always November 10. Some GM people have said by November, and many took that conservatively to mean end of November.
Aug 15th, 2010 (2:01 pm)We all know and understand the VOLT will never be ‘absolute zero’ on gas usage, but it will be 90 to 95% reduction for many. Maybe even 99% for some.
Aug 15th, 2010 (2:19 pm)Hi #66 Roy H: You missed my point. I’m not saying you gain any power advantage. What I’m sharing is my experience with sustained power loads at near or at max loading. The Type B Outlet is going to warm up – period. I’m suggesting simply another way to go. The 30 A twist-loc ensures its perfectly engaged and it’ll run more efficient.
Now if VOLT prohibits the use of a twist-loc 30 A outlet – so be it. And that was also my point that while I used this system for many years – should it turn out to be for any reason not appropriate for VOLT. (I’ve worked with SAE specs a lot and always reserve further review.)
For the record, I’m a long-time (without dating myself) design engineer with a power background.
Aug 15th, 2010 (2:29 pm)That is not just what this article says. I am still somewhat confused by the 2 diff 110v charging rates. Any Electricains out there
20
Charging the Chevy Volt Posted by Lyle in: Charging with 339 Comments
Share:
Recently GM revealed the production charging equipment that will come with the Volt when it can finally be bought.
There will be a portable 120 V unit (R) that can be plugged into any standard receptacle. It will be able to recharge the car fully in 6 hours at 12 amps or 8 hours at 8 amps.
The other device option (L) is a 240 V stationary wall-mounted unit that has to be installed in the owners garage per code. This unit running at 16 amps can recharge the Volt in 3 hours.
Both utilize a newly ratified interface or coupler standard called SAE J1772, that provides durability, communications, and safety functions and well as universal usability among EVs.
The Volt charging units are very robust and designed to withstand even a complete dunk in a bucket of water. As well, there is a flashlight at the tip for
-1
Aug 15th, 2010 (2:39 pm)Rather than futz around with Tou rates, I’m going to put up PV. Ymmv, I’m very lucky to live in a sunny state with fantastic solar incentives:
Every peak rated kW produces 1700 kwh/year (PVWatts)
After tax credits I could pay $4.75/watt for a turn-key system,
but I’ll DIY some of the simple stuff and end up paying about $2.50/watt
My utility pays me 13 cents/kwh produced for 12 years, and all the juice I produce is mine to use for free.
So here is the deal: I pay $2.50 a watt to install today, am paid $2.65 a watt over 12 years on my production, and have free electricity whenever I want to use it, for the life of the array which is around 30 years in the panels and 10 years on the inverter which today costs about $1500.
The deal is so good that I will put up PV now, even though I do not expect to buy an EV for a couple of years.
Aug 15th, 2010 (2:43 pm)Streetlight,
Higher amps means two things:
More energy loss in charging; and
an unhappy battery at the end.
Just do not do it.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:00 pm)Thanks for sharing the personal experience! I always love to hear specific, real-world information. It also illustrates that there are many good paths to achieve the same goal.
Thanks again,
Tagamet
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:07 pm)Thanks for the link! I’m listening to it while I read the comments.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:21 pm)I think that the Volt and LEAF can coexist with the Prius without hurting anything. There’s nothing wrong with the Prius, but many people ARE a little too ego involved and therefore take comments too personally. As long as a vehicle moves us toward our goals, where’s the problem? JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:30 pm)Yes, the local dealerships have 3 times as many on their official waiting list as they have Volts. As of August 7th, half of these folks have chosen options and placed deposits. The first half of the dealer stock of Volts will be delivered around Christmas. The last half of stock delivered month by month through Spring 2011. Many dealerships will received a demo Volt in November.
Actually, GM has used the gm volt dot com list. When Bob Lutz talked with the Board and stated, “There’s a lot of demand out there”. He didn’t need to go far to prove it. Most on the Lyle’s unoffcial waiting list, located in an early launch area, had the chance to get their name on a GM buyer list. True, the car cost about $3000 too much. But, we had the heads up to place deposits in early August.
The deciding factor for me were the many test and lab videos released over this last 12 months. Mountain climb, desert heat, flooded test track, hot lamp chamber, panic stop on wet ceramic … ect. Along with demo drives by trusted people like the Major, Tag, Dan Petit, and Jay Leno. Coundn’t have placed a deposit without this.
=D-Volt
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:31 pm)If you go to the DTE website ( http://www.dteenergy.com ); mouse over Residential Utility Customers; a submenu will appear; select “Products/Programs”; along the left side of the new page is a list of selectable items – one of them is “Plugin Electric Vehicles” (3rd from bottom) – select it; another submenu will appear; all of these will be of interest; one (two actually) lead you to a screen to request more information (contact us is one of the two) – it will bring up a form to fill in specific details which will result in an email being sent to DTE; they will send back a confirming email about a day later; eventually more will come (I presume).
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:36 pm)Agreed. I remember when VHS video tape was overtaking Betamax tapes. I was devastated. It took a while, but I finally gave in that it was an improvement in that technology. The ‘Hybrid’ cars were an improvement over ICE, now ‘Voltec’ will be an improvement on that… and dare I say that someday ‘EEStor’ will be an improvement on that???!!! (or is that going too far?)
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:41 pm)Just a FYI: I found (not sure it was on the DTE site or the Detroit newspaper article, but there was mention of the fear of a concentration of plugin EV’s in localized communities and one specifically mentioned was Troy (MI) where I live.
And the $40.00 per month fixed fee — isn’t that kind of bizarre? At the normal rate of $.12 per KWH you would have to do a lot of Volt charging to get to $40 every month. And the separate meter rate is about $.05 per KWH. I personally already have interruptible service for the AC and that is about $.10 per KWH. So now we would need three meters? Or could the new EV line be used for AC also (the rate sheet looks like there was already such a rate for AC and the EV category was just tacked onto it, but not sure).
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:44 pm)Thanks for the kind words, Dave. Ironically, words were really inadequate to describe the experience, but I still think that GM should market the Volt with a “If it don’t make you smile, bring it back” (That’s Good ‘ol boy grammar) GUARANTEE.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:49 pm)PHV is an improvement in some ways, a compromise in others. And currently it is very expensive. Rather than broad brush strokes and commercial sound bytes, how about simple unadorned facts so that people can make rational, informed decisions ?
Let the Volt stand on merit if it can, rather than emotion. I’d certainly prefer that GM spent the taxpayer bailout money on EV research and not TV commercial FUD meant to whip people into a frenzy over “range anxiety.”
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:51 pm)Yep, the EEStor part was a bit much (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 15th, 2010 (3:57 pm)Oh,another thing that puzzles me from the DTE website: they have a calculator that you can plug in various usage parameters and it will tell you not only what the cost is, but the amount of electricity used. So this calculator claims that charging at 240 volts is slightly more expensive than charging at 120 volts (about $20 per year or so) and if you look into it, the claim is that more electricity is used if you charge at 240 volts. This is contrary to my sense of things. Most machinery that runs at 240 volts has higher effeciency/ less loss than the same thing that runs at 120 volts. I’m sure there is an explanation, but I sure would like to know what it is.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (4:03 pm)Yes, “the Volt smile” is the biggest single deciding factor even though I have not experienced it yet. But I have experienced it through my compadres — and not only those that have driven it, but that includes the abundant engineering data and explanations that have appeared here. Thanks to ALL.
Aug 15th, 2010 (4:16 pm)Danny – good for you. I rode in a 100K ride today, it was challenging, but many rode in the 100 MILE version.
Aug 15th, 2010 (4:25 pm)Congrats! I hope that it was supporting a charity (they often are). The only way I’d complete a 100K would be in a VOLT!
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 15th, 2010 (4:26 pm)Seems like a rather straightforward process to calculate how much money from a gallon of gas is used for road taxes. And surely the folks on this forum would be a good source of ideas and pros and cons on various approaches to obtaining road taxes. And it is worth noting that as pure ICE vehicles get better gas mileage it is hurting various road revenue streams. But then again judging from the amount of orange barrels everywhere it is had to believe that they are hurting that much.
Aug 15th, 2010 (4:30 pm)My wife just informed me that the subject of “preparing the garage for a Volt” came up (this morning) on “Ask the Handyman” (there is a local Detroit version of this and a nationwide version). Evidently there were two questions and he recommended a particular electric contracting company. The “Handyman” is a guy name Glen Haege (he is good).
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (5:40 pm)I agree, Tag! And for a little comic relief, when you pass someone in your Volt, here’s how your passenger could get a good smile/laugh too:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1103004008858&ref=mf
(This 40sec video should crack you up …& maybe crack up the driver you’re passing too!)
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (5:44 pm)Cute clip. It’s always a good idea to carry a spare steering wheel in the truck. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
-16
Aug 15th, 2010 (5:46 pm)(click to show comment)
+6
Aug 15th, 2010 (5:50 pm)Post #94 is a forgery; my posts always have the shuttle launch avatar and clicking “nasaman” takes you to my Space Science Services business site. Go climb back under your rock, troll!
-1
Aug 15th, 2010 (6:09 pm)Just plugged in the PHV model Prius now sitting in my garage. 120-volt connection is does the trick. I’ll be going for an EV drive later! Makes me wonder what kWh capacity would justify the expense of a 240-volt connection.
Aug 15th, 2010 (6:50 pm)not to drive.. c’mon. you’d use very little to condition, especially in the warmer states..
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (6:54 pm)Seems like there should be some sort of “Nuclear option” to deal with that kind of post.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:06 pm)Rob your right. People want it both ways.
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:07 pm)Don’t worry. We know who’s real around here. How desperate Toyota must be to send their minimum wage flunkies in here just to cause trouble. I’ve posted the guy’s picture below. It should be on the FBI’s most wanted list by morning…
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:27 pm)Do you know how long the generator needs to run when its 15 below? How about 5 above Fahrenheit? Where I live this is typical for Jan/Feb for many days.
The original post claimed ZERO gas use if you drove 14,000 mi/yr, and I just put out several issues that will make this statement false. I did not say it would be hundreds of gallons, just that you will use some, no matter what.
Do you want to put together your best guess on how many gallons/yr the Volt will burn in a typical use scenario? Not me, because everyone has their own “typical” use profile.
+6
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:45 pm)I could be wrong, but I thought that the battery would be conditioned anytime it is plugged in, without using any gas.
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:53 pm)Once again, on this day we have spent $800,000,000 on imported oil. Some of it came from Canada, that is cool… It is the other places that drive me nuts!
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:55 pm)Will the car always be plugged in when it sits in a parking ramp or at the local mall?
My point is just that saying you will drive gas free is false. Statements like these only add to critisism that people will put on the Volt. You tell them you will use no gas if you drive 14,000 mi/yr, and then they find that they do use gas, they will not be happy customers.
Sales persons (Corvette Guy), could put a better perspective on this. I can imagine if your telling people they will not use gas as long as they only drive 14,000 miles or less a year, and then they find this is not the case, your customers will come pounding on your door.
Lets keep the Volt real, and not make it something it is not.
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:11 pm)DTE has installed at least two batches of smart meters and their website claims that Milford (the town northwest of Detroit where the proving ground is located) and neighboring towns are in the process of having them installed. At the “Business of plugging in” conference last year they had a display about this. These smart meters are NOT what is used for time of day charging. These meters are capable of communicating with the power generating plants and changing the rates based on the load on the system. That is not what they plan, but that is what they are capable of. The time of day meters as someone stated have been around for many years. Also the existing meters are capable of being read in a “minimally invasive” manner. I’m pretty sure that now they can be read without physical contact (bluetooth or equivalent). The smart meters will have two way communications that is live full time.
-2
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:27 pm)By lucky coincidence, today is number 365 of my daily-driving data collecting. Rather than trying to represent “typical”, the goal was to illustrate actual. You’d be surprised by the variety real-world need causes. Looking at the graph of the entire year, there’s clearly no pattern that emerged.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:35 pm)Well, *that’s* pretty forward looking. Sounds like the job of “meter reader” will gradually die out too.
Be well,
Tagamet
/JEC I just evened out your #104 post score. somebody neg’d ya and I didn’t want you to think it was me
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:50 pm)You have posed an excellent question.
I too would believe charging would be more efficient at the 240 Volt level. If the cost is 20.00 more a year from a kilowatt measurement standpoint it just maybe the battery is getting a higher charge due to better efficiencies. ??
-1
Aug 15th, 2010 (9:57 pm)Try telling some-one/place that cares about you’re silly data, TROLL!.
Last I looked this wasnt a Prius site.
Maybe try PriusForums.com or send it to Toyota headquarters where I’m sure it will get a rounding applause.
What a ritard
.LB
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:20 pm)Emotions are meritless? Somebody ought to let somebody merited know about this?
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:21 pm)Spoke with a manager at my workplace this week. Asked that 5 or 6 plug-in parking spaces be provided in our two main structures. Mentioned 120V and 240V and also the J1772 connector. Her first reply is that they should be outdoors next to the visitor lot. I asked that they be in the structures. Will know more in a few months.
=D-Volt
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:40 pm)This is definitely the way to go.
No EV owner should pass this up.
As an aside, since GM has a hand in developing the system, how much access will it have to the data? Why have a fleet of BEV’s in the US right now when the data from everyone’s EV is right here in the back yard!
This information can easily confirm the relevance of the years of fleet work done with the EV-1 and help fine tune any BEV GM has in the pipeline.
ps. priusjohn#guy, you just couldn’t stay away from a topic that clearly doesn’t apply to you, could you!
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:43 pm)Finally found time to update my mileage table. I get a lot of good tips from you guys. Believe me… It all goes into the Sales Manual.
Mucho Gracias Amigos…!
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:55 pm)Will be nice when these guesses are blown out of the water when the real data comes pouring in a few months… we will have to come back to these discussions. My guess is many many people will be getting well over 100mpg routinely. Charging nightly .. driving less than 70 miles a day = 100mpg+
Aug 15th, 2010 (10:59 pm)It sounds like she was receptive to the idea. Maybe your fall back position could be “OK, outside, but make them 240V”?
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:00 pm)AMEN! +1 I wonder if GM will share some of the data with Lyle?
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:03 pm)Thanks for the chuckle!
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:11 pm)NICE CHART!
You might need a ** footnote that says, “ICE engine will run occasionally if conditions warrant” or “ICE may take a sip from time to time” or “Incidental gasoline consumed to maintain battery” or something like that.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:21 pm)Infact, if the idea is to drive only 40 miles between charges the whole year, why buy Volt ? A BEV is better suited.
-2
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:23 pm)Nice. BTW, why not use a round figure like 35 mpg …
Pls send this to Rush Limbaugh and his conservative talking point buddies.
+1
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:24 pm)True that.
Be well,
Tagamet
-1
Aug 15th, 2010 (11:28 pm)How about: “EV range 20 – 40 miles, depending on conditions and driver.”
-5
Aug 16th, 2010 (12:54 am)“Emotions are meritless? Somebody ought to let somebody merited know about this? ”
Sorry, I thought you would understand the reference since this is a GM site. For years and years (and still), GM hid lousy engineering and worse manufacturing by non-stop promotion of gasoline guzzlers, big cars, and big engines as “driving excitement.”
Today’s variation is trying to sell “range anxiety” to match the Volt’s spec sheet.
I’m ok with them using YOUR GM purchase dollars to manipulate you since you can speak up for yourself and most people here seem to like the massage, but I want my bailout money back if that is how it is wasted. Actually I never wanted to bail out GM, but watching them spew FUD and propaganda is just pathetic, and makes me antagonistic.
Aug 16th, 2010 (6:09 am)I sincerely hope we get at least 50 MPG and I would like to see closer to 60 MPG.
Although I am thinking 30 MPG is the reality.
+2
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:19 am)Aren’t we do for another non-announcement from EEStor? The Zennergy drive should be ready any day now!
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:23 am)As a Michigander, this is great news. There are some good synergies going on here in MI right now. We have a lot of battery manufacturing and development (A123, Johnson Controls-SAFT, LG Chem etc), the Volt is being launched and built here, and now free installation of home chargers and special electric rates.
Looking forward to purchasing a new home this fall and I plan to have the charging station installed there. Even if I don’t “need” a 240 V charging station, I think it will actually add to the value of my next home. By the time I sell it, BEVs and EREVs should be fairly commonplace.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:31 am)I am an EV supporter, but this clamoring for preferential treatment (some comments above) has got to stop. Let’s get something straight, people:
1. EV drivers should pay road maintenance taxes just like everyone else, since they put wear and tear on the road just like everyone else.
2. EV drivers should NOT get carpool/HOV lane access when driving alone. The point of those lanes is to reduce traffic congestion and roadway usage. EVs do neither.
I know those are hard pills to swallow, but that’s where the logic leads us. And seeing as how most of the regular posters here consider themselves logical….
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:53 am)I think the point was: If your typical commute is 40 miles, then your mileage will be X. It goes without saying that most people will drive more than 40 miles at some time during the year. Duh!
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:15 am)I wouldn’t mind seeing CorvetteGuy’s chart expanded to add the pie chart from GM.
Just how many gallons of gas would the percentages of the US population use while driving a Volt?
ie:
about 75% of our driving for the year would only use maintenance gas, about 2 gallons.
10% or our drivers use 60 gallons for every 12000 miles, and so forth for the remaining 15%.
(As a comparison a 50 mpg car would use 240 gallons of gas for 12,000 miles, a 25 mpg car…)
Aug 16th, 2010 (9:53 am)I think you have me confused with someone else…I have never made a post about the Prius.
And I hope I’m wrong about smart meters, but everywhere they have been deployed people are not happy.
+1
Aug 16th, 2010 (10:24 am)We don’t know what their assumptions are for charging times, since they do not know how big your EV’s battery is. Therefore, it’s best to do the math yourself and estimate the charging time based on your vehicle (i.e Volt vs. Leaf).
Clearly, if you’re in the program you’re going to save money at $0.07/kWh electric vehicle rate (off peak) vs. $0.12/kWh standard residential rate. That said, if you HAD to charge during peak rate hours, you’d be best off plugging your extension cord into a standard household outlet, because the on-peak EV rate is $0.18/kWh.
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:13 pm)I use two gallons of gasoline per day. One getting to work and one on the way back.
My elec rate is $0.21 per kilowatt. So just for my daily commute I would save $1600.00 per year.
Come on Ford!, with a basic car for my commute so I don’t have to buy a Leaf.
-1
Aug 16th, 2010 (5:37 pm)^^ two gallons a day is $5.50 a day;
five days a week, 50 weeks a year is 250 days;
Annual petrol cost is 5.5*250= $1375
8 kwh/day @ 21 cents/kwh * 250 days = $420 a year.
So you annual fuel cost savings is 1375-420 = $955 a year, not $1600.
Prius:
About 0.8 gallons of petrol a day, @ $2.75 a gallon is $2.20
Annual fuel cost is 2.2*250 = $550 — $130 a year more than Volt electricity.
How does spending $25,000 + interest to save half a buck a workday sound to ya ?
Aug 17th, 2010 (6:13 am)Their calculator DOES know the size of the battery because one of the input parameters is type of car. One of the outputs is size of battery (in KWH) and amount of power needed (9.1 KWH for Volt’s 8KWH battery, or 9.9 KWH if at 240 volts).
+1
Aug 17th, 2010 (6:16 am)Sounds GREAT if you are wearing a Volt SMILE. It’s NOT about the savings of dollars, at least not solely.
Aug 20th, 2010 (10:02 am)This info is incorrect – electric rates vary from 7 cents to a high (last time I looked) of 35 cents per KWhr during peak demand in parts of California (where else?). This also doesn’t include various add on costs passed on by our sleazy “domestic” electric producers. I’d rather use a fuel priced by the free market (like oil from abroad) than electricity, whose price includes tons of taxpayer monies. And much of that “domestically produced” electricity is made from non-domestically produced fuel. Nuclear power accounts for roughly 20% of our power and the fuel is seldom sourced domestically. Much of the coal is also foreign, and much of the solar power is
produced by panels made everywhere but here. Same for wind. Same for most parts of every GM car. GM can claim that China builds a very large percentage of their parts – the UAW saw to that with their average $140K yearly incomes.