The first batch of Chevrolet Volts will be in very limited supply and highly sought after. As a result, individual dealers have the opportunity to make a few extra bucks by marking up the price beyond the MSRP of $41,000. They can incorporate that extra profit into the lease price too.
GM has sent a clear message to the so far 600 Chevrolet Volt certified dealers that it does not want them to mark up the car. There is already an $1800 profit for the dealer over invoice.
Despite these factors, according to a GM-Volt poll, more than half of Chevy dealers are marking up the cars, some even going to far as to charge $20,000 more than MSRP.
AutoNation is the nation’s largest new car dealership chain. The company owns 230 dealerships in 17 states, which includes 27 Chevrolet Dealers.
Marc Cannon who is AutoNation’s head of communications told Edmunds.com his company has issued a strict memo to its Chevy dealers.
They were told that no Volts may be sold for more than MSRP. Any dealer found to be increasing the price will be subject to immediate termination.
There are no reports of Nissan dealers planning to jack up the price of the LEAF, and some have even been reported to be willing to sell it below MSRP.
Challenge: Who will be the first Chevy dealer to step up and offer a Volt below MSRP?
Source (Edmunds)
+12
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:59 am)I was able to order my Volt at MSRP. However, since the $41k is a preliminary price, it may change at time of delivery. Should I be nervous? I see a conflict in your posting, Lyle. I agree that the Volt will be in high demand, but no dealer should sell below MSRP. To me, that would indicate that the demand ain’t so high.
Thank you so much, Lyle, for keeping us all informed on the Volt. I’ve been keenly watching the development and really looking forward to delivery.
Thanks to you too, Tagamet!!
+21
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:00 am)“Any dealer found to be increasing the price will be subject to immediate termination.’
I love it.
+9
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:05 am)I have decided if “my dealer” wants to mark up the price of the car I will let him do it… but I will NOT be a buyer.
While I really REALLY like the VOLT there are enough other options out there now that a markup is not warranted.
Like it or not the Ford Hybrids and the Prius do compete.
AutoNation is smart in wanting to have happy customers… now and the future..
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:07 am)$1,800 profit.
Plus 4% “holdback” an additional 4% of the invoice goes to the dealer.
Plus the extra points they make on the financing.
Plus Paint sealant
Plus LoJack
Plus Tire and dent warranty
Plus window etching
Plus Window Tinting
Plus interior stain warranty
Plus parts
Plus Labor
Plus Maintenance
Plus window etching
Plus dealer service fees
Plus document fees
Plus, plus, plus….
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:12 am)The Street reports 50 mpg for the Volt
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10834039/3/ford-gm-bring-their-a-game.html
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:18 am)So far you have etched only 2 of the windows :+} LOL Lojack not needed — with “On Star” — but we do get your point. ;+}
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:19 am)I see no problem with dealer markups, as long as the Volt is selling. Markups that freeze the sale of their allotment are the problem.
Anyway, the Volts will sell and GM will increase production.
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:20 am)The Volt has a 2-year waiting list??
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:30 am)Thanks for the Link.. We will see if the 50 MPG comment is true…. hope it is and even higher. Any less reduces one advantage for the VOLT.
Ford and GM do have some very exciting vehicle options coming to market and the VOLT is a major player!
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:03 am)WOW they increased hold back to 4%… My neighbor used to sell GM in the 1980′s. He showed me where to look for true invoice in the salesman’s papers and then said they got an additional 3% hold back.
Maybe Corvette Guy can tell us when the increase happened. I used to just offer a price 1.5% under invoice. Depending on how bad dealer wanted to sell, sometimes yes sometimes no. But there was always one guy out there willing to sell. Volt will be different for now which is why I will wait for VOLT 4.0.
+4
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:09 am)What a dissapointment if this is actually true…no, not that 50mpg would not be GREAT, but that we would hear it from a off-hand review, in one sentence.
I would fathom that they just threw that 50mpg number out their, w/o any real justification.
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:13 am)Lyle, Is that Silver Volt yours?
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:19 am)I just happen to have my deposit down at Team Chevrolet in Alpharetta Georgia which is an Autonation dealership.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:19 am)Volt as sold is to expensive for me. I don’t want bells and whistles, just basic protection from the elements. So I am waiting on the other american car company (FORD) to state their price. If it is also high I’ll be buying the Leaf. Next year I’ll be getting one.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:20 am)Dave Smith Motors, Kellogg, Idaho will be selling them at invoice according to the Sales Manager. (When they get them of course… 12-18 months.)
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:21 am)I think they are just recycling the old estimate.
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:22 am)I’m hoping the lease numbers stay at 350 and 2500 down and the price to buy after the lease is around 20,000. The residual price after the lease is the last piece of the puzzle along with the confirmed CS mpg.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:26 am)Fred. I hear ya’, but unfortunately the bells-and-whistles on the Volt, like every other car really does not cost the maker as much proportionally, as the rest of the core vehicle.
The automaker needs to make money, so taking an expensive car and adding a few “luxury items” does not significantly impact the cost of manufacture, but he can add a premium markup on the car.
So, even if they left the Bells-and-whistles off the Volt, the price would still not drop more than a couple thousand (and that probably high). So now you buy a $39,000 stripped down car…probably not a good move for GM.
The bells-and-whistles just make it seem a little more palatable to someone dropping $41,000 + tax – govt rebate.
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:43 am)If you are looking for low cost. Skip the Leaf and go straight for the Mitsubishi MiEV. They are projecting a price around $22K. Same performance as Leaf for lower cost. It looks like a Jelly Bean, but it protects you from the elements!
On the other hand it appears that the Leaf dealers are already starting to discount their car, if you wait about 2 years, the Leaf dealer will pay you to take it! 
-10
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:45 am)(click to show comment)
+7
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:54 am)You left out the cost of bullets for the gun that we hold to people’s heads. (just kidding
)
I forwarded today’s post to my General Manager.
Will it change his mind? Don’t know. But if it does, I can always rewrite my customer’s purchase orders. It’s ok by me.
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:09 am)Glad to hear at least some of the stealerships are doing the right thing for their customers.
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:14 am)If you do not want to pay what the a “dealership” is offering, just walk away….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1411-Jx9-Xk
+6
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:15 am)Amen to Lyle’s great work and please keep us posted on the progress of your purchase! Many of us will experience it vicariously and enjoy the thrill with you!
PS: Thanks for the kind words too!
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:34 am)Lyle,
When are you getting your Volt. Is it ordered? You getting it at MSRP?
Take Care,
TED
+16
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:41 am)I don’t know about you guys, but dealers marking up cars, especially more than 2k, just pisses me off.
I swear I just want to say to those dealers if they quote me that….
“Thanks, but no thanks. I’d rather shop somewhere else than to give your greedy dealership my hard earned money. You guys help give dealerships a bad name.”
One day, people will start shopping for cars on the internet (more head on than now). Those dealerships will be in trouble then!
On the side note:
Despite my itch for the Chevy Volt, I will not be getting one for the 2011 model year. (Trust me, I really want it, I’ve been following GM-Volt since 2007…I just don’t post much.) There is just too much competition for the car right now. That, and the pricing? Definite no, no for me, at least for now. I’m going to wait a few years for the Chevy Volt to come down in price. Oh, Chevy Volt, how you attract me much.
I do really hope that intelligent discussions continue here at GM-Volt. I have always thought this was the best blog I have ever visited. The comments here are posted from people from many backgrounds, and promote diversity of opinions and ideas. I am afraid that in the future, people with less passion for the Chevy Volt will ruin the comments section a bit. Already, I start to see it happening. There is much more uninformed comments, and comments with negative ratings than there used to be. I really hope that comments continue to be as beautiful, engaging, and interesting as it always have. I spend a good hour or two reading the comments here at GM-Volt every day, and I can honestly say, its truely a phenomenal read everyday. I don’t want this comments section to be littered with posts akin to those at Engadget, with flaming, trolls, and “firsts”. You get the gist.
Long live GM-Volt, GM, Voltec, and most of all, the car that started it all, the Chevrolet Volt.
+7
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:45 am)Minor point: If you have 230 dealerships, then you are obviously making plenty of profit on your other cars that you can ‘afford’ to hold the line on 1 limited edition model. I’m just sayin’ …..
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:49 am)I hope no dealer sells a Volt for below MSRP. When I heard dealers doing that with the LEAF, my first thought was that desperation had already set in the Nissan camp months before rollout even begins. That didn’t inspire confidence in its worth – and the same feelings would be had for the Volt if any dealer was to drop down below MSRP. They need to make money to justify their committment to backing up the product in the best way possible.
+4
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:54 am)Kudos to Mike Jackson and the leadership at AutoNation – it is refreshing to see one of the large publicly traded dealership groups take a stand like this. Lyle – thanks for the insight. Ultimately, it will be a few dealers who find a few customers (who just woke up that morning) that will potentially give all dealers a bad rap. Its unfortunate, but its been happening for a long time. Final Answer: if you don’t like the deal, walk away. Freedom of choice makes the USA great!
Quick story for a Saturday morning – just back from a week vacation and taking my daughter back to college – and the first customer that called this morning was ready to drive down with a deposit check for a VOLT, but only on his terms. His terms included us paying him $3,000 if we failed to deliver a new VOLT to him by Christmas 2010. I smiled and told him ‘good luck’. The first VOLTs are months away, and there are still THOUSANDS of consumers out there who will hear about it in the next few months and want one….. our sales staff is going to really have to work at staying upbeat through all of those ‘gotta have one’ conversations!
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:56 am)Economics rule.
Dealers price to make profit,
and to keep business.
50 mpg
is a floating mirage that
is just out of reach.
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:57 am)I found this article a few days ago that also mentions the 50 mpg figure.
“The Chevrolet Volt also carries a 1.4 4-clyinder engine that allows the five-door, FWD sedan to travel additional miles while averaging a fuel-economy of 50 mpg.”
http://www.egmcartech.com/2010/08/09/gm-working-with-epa-on-chevy-volt-fuel-economy-rating-due-later-this-year/
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:07 am)My sentiments exactly Danny, so thanks for saving me the trouble of posting them!
And welcome! …I hope you’ll share many more of your comments with us here!!!
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:10 am)You’re correct. The author of this article offers no link or data source to back up his 50 MPG or 2 year waiting list claims.
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:37 am)Yes, but what good PR for the Dealer that sells the vehicle at/below MSRP! If I were a dealer, and could get press on it…. then I would do it! I would then back it up with the best service in the region and the most involved customer experience as well!
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:47 am)Limiting price to MSRP will at least help public perception that the dealers and GM are being greedy and ungrateful.
About the MPG number. We obviously don’t know enough to calculate it. My best SWAG is to compare it to the Prius. Aero drag is about the same (GM claims their Cd is better), Volt is heavier (GM says with regenerative braking weight doesn’t matter as much as aero), Volt engine is about 20% smaller than the Prius (Smaller engine works harder for a given load thus has better specific fuel consumption) and the Volt engine can operate closer to a constant speed and load condition (makes is possible to further optimize performance). Less certain are the differences in drive train losses. I won’t hazard a guess other than it might be fairly close.
My SWAG is that mpg is is the same range as Prius give or take. Very possible that GM hit their 50 mpg target. Guesses that it’s 20-35 mpg I think aren’t really supported by any engineering argument.
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:50 am)Did I read that right, as much as $20,000 over MSRP?
The owner of that dealership can go to hell.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:56 am)A recent Vauxhall video shows similar sideview mirrors on the Ampera as on the Volt. With no front air dam. A spokeman at Vauxhall is says, “Up to 350 miles range”. Hard to tell what’s going on with conflicting information. Do they mean using ALL the fuel in the tank. Or just 80%, leaving enough to comfortably get to a pump? Media reports mention a capacity between 8-9 gallons.
=D-Volt
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:58 am)Quite the opposite. Last year’s switch from 1.5 to 1.8 proved it. The bigger engine doesn’t have to work as hard (lower RPM) and the result is a clear MPG improvement.
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:02 am)I’m very happy to hear the stick to the MSRP. Many people turned to Japanese cars because of their service and lack of haggling. Nobody likes that crap.
“OK, I’ll have to go ask my manager…”
Bullcrap.
GM not only has the opportunity to change their product line, run with a new cost structure that is closer to foreign automakers but they can also change the culture of the dealerships.
Let’s bring great products AND great service back to the American people. Learn from the competition and try to beat every single part of what is offered. It can be very hard to change the cultural momentum of an organization. Thus, now is the time to set things on a path towards greatness.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:25 am)This is just a hypothetical question, but do most people consider the Volt to be a $41,000 vehicle or a $33,500 vehicle? Personally, I see this as a $33,500 vehicle since I will be getting the $7,500 tax credit. At $33,500, the Volt isn’t any more expensive than a fully loaded Camry or Accord and it’s still cheaper than the low end BMWs and Mercedes’. Factor in the savings on gas, the Volt isn’t too pricey. I personally expect to save $200-$300 a month on gas by using my Volt. This savings justification my higher payment on the Volt when compared to my other cars.
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:35 am)I don’t think very many people get upset at pricing slightly above MSRP for a new model which is in short supply. Crazy stuff like $20K over is different because it’s just irritating. As we all know, MSRP is just a suggested price, and it usually doesn’t have that much to do with actual selling prices. I don’t think I’ve ever paid MSRP for a car and I’ve never felt bad about that. No reason to get upset if the shoe is on the other foot.
Moreover, if you priced it below MSRP you’d see some enterprising people buying and then flipping. Would that be better? At the end of the day market price is what it is. So enjoy having a hot car! There are many worse problems you could have.
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:40 am)With all the new developments in batteries coming on line, I can’t understand why GM is not providing a better battery in the Volt. Yesterday we discussed the CEO’s at GM and how they needed to be a bit better at decision making. Yet there’s no word that I can find that indicates they have any interest in providing a better battery for the Volt. It’s the same old super caution approach that got them in the mess they’re in.
Other than Bob Lutz (who is now gone) I don’t see any risk takers that will return this company to the GM that once ruled the world. But one thing we can be assured of, the Asian car makers will take the necessary risks to provide the cars North Americans want to drive.
Maybe GM is just too big and cumbersome to change its philosophy.
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:40 am)I’ve never seen any evidence of a difference between dealers for US and Japan based manufacturers. The worst practices I’ve heard of have been with Toyota dealers selling the Prius. Dealers are dealers. They all have the same basic incentives. Some are good. Some are bad.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:46 am)Huh? Honda will take risks but it’s been off in “Hydrogen Land”. Toyota has been sitting on its hands hoping nothing would disrupt its hybrid technology. Nissan is taking huge risks but that’s all because of the European Carlos Ghosn. Even BMW and Daimler are moving. Just not seeing the Asian car makers leading “the charge” here.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:47 am)that would be a stretch
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:48 am)Actually we also need the money factor(interest rate) to put this together. GM can either use a high residual or low money factor to get to the 350 number but we can hope they use a fair residual and a low money factor. They might not make money on the lease but they won’t take a hit at the end by using a unrealistically high residual.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:59 am)From the article :
Challenge: Who will be the first Chevy dealer to step up and offer a Volt below MSRP?
Why in the world would a dealer do that at this point in time ?
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:01 pm)How do you explain 600 plug-in models making rounds worldwide to businesses & individuals to collect real-world driving data? And what about the new hybrid coming out next spring with a Li-Ion battery pack?
In other words, that “hybrid technology” reference really doesn’t mean anything. They are advancing both plug & battery.
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:07 pm)Though I agree with the premise that their incentives ($) are the same, the manner in which they try to acquire their business goals, seem to differ pretty remarkably. I know that I pretty consistently pay about $1K more to the dealership I’ve frequented for >25 years, but their service model for those vehicles is second to none. So now they are getting my kid’s business too. They are a 3rd generation (used) car dealership, and it looks like they’ll be there for at least another generation. I’m sure that they lose some initial sales because of price, but they sell reliable vehicles and provide service after the sale. I hope that GM does the same. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:09 pm)Interesting, 50 mpg is also estimated for the Volt on the GM website at the very end of this page (Fuel economy estimates based on GM simulation data):
http://www.gm.com/vehicles/hybrids-and-electric/electric/
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:14 pm)Who says that they *aren’t*? At some point they had to freeze the specs if they want to field the Volt, so that covers Gen I. Personally, I believe that the Volt has the best technology currently available. I hope that they ARE flexible enough to incorporate battery advances in their next Gen‘s, but at this point we don’t know. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:14 pm)No stretch at all.
If you can buy something and turn a profit, people will do it.
I would.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:33 pm)No that’s just your conclusion that the bigger engine is the reason for the improved economy in the new model. That requires the unlikely assumption that the engine size is the only change in the car. It’s a very basic characteristic of ICE that they have better scf if they working at a good fraction of their maximum power. Look at a plot of data of power vs sfc on any ICE. Conventional car engines are much larger than they need to be for steady state cruising in order to provide better acceleration performance. All things being equal an engine that’s big enough to maintain cruising but has less reserve for great acceleration will have better fuel economy. If nothing else a larger displacement engine has more internal friction.
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:35 pm)I explain those 600 plug-ins by saying they’re my Exhibit A. Late to the party and uninspiring. Talk about a day late and a dollar short. The plug-in Prius is to the Volt as the hybrid Malibu was to the Prius — just not competitive. Toyota’s line on EVs is well known. As put by Bill Reinert: Lithium-ion batteries are too expensive by at least an order of magnitude. They’re not energy-dense enough. And we generate a lot of our electricity from coal.
I actually think Toyota understands they’ve blown it, they’re not exactly stupid, which is why you see the tie-up with Tesla. Why else would ordinarily sane people get in bed with Elon Musk?
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:41 pm)That’s sort of what I was trying to say though I can see why you’d interpret it the way you did. I meant that the incentives for dealers of all brands are essentially the same so, while some will execute better or differently than others, you’re not going to see stark distinctions between the populations. IOW the differences between dealers for a brand will be larger than those between brands.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:41 pm)Thanks for the link and it does indicate a 50 mpg from an official GM site.
I think this information has been out there for a while just like the $40K MSRP that has been out there for several years before it was formally announced.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (12:47 pm)It says the combination of CD and CS Modes could give you an equivalent of 50 MPG. Not exactly the same as saying 50 MPG in CS Mode. It also says you can use E85 which isn’t true, and it says that the engine recharges the battery pack, which isn’t true either.
Bad page. Yuck! I wouldn’t rely on it too much.
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:06 pm)Hey possums be sure to check E-bay a couple of weeks after the first Volts hit the street, I expect some people will buy the car at MSRP and then run it on E-bay to make some money. It is the good old American supply and demand period and plus it is free advertising for Chevy. The kicker is that only one unit has to sell on E-bay at an inflated price to get some attention. I just hope Obama can keep the titanic afloat until 2012 or 13 so I can get a Volt at a decent price.
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:06 pm)#3 neutron Said:
Like it or not the Ford Hybrids and the Prius do compete.
That’s a couple of those cars that burn gas almost all the time, right?
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:14 pm)Those “better” batteries are not tested yet and at some point they had to make a decision on what to put in the car.
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:28 pm)The way I look at it .. if a dealership wants to mark up the cars that is their option .. I don’t believe in socialism where everthing you do is dictated. Supply and demand works not socialism.
We still have the choices.. if they mark up the cars you can not buy them. The dealers who don’t mark them up make out with better PR … but to dictate pricing is not right.
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:32 pm)Difference between American and Japanese ?
Nissan leaf dealers will sell below MSRP ( but media was making up stories that they are going to do dealer goofing )
Volt dealers already started goofing (asking 20k extra ) .
Then i herd on battery maintenance systems – media said leaf has no advanced BMS but some source said version 2 volt is planned to have over engineering reduction on BMS.
I wonder how cars are going to prove …
To be frank .. after Frank Weber. left , i am getting less and less confidence on volt and seems these non engineering guys are ready to spoil the party.
+4
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:34 pm)Really? Can you show me the math?
For my basic transportation purposes, my ’07 Corolla is comparable to a Volt. It seats 4, goes 0-60 in less than 10 seconds.
I average 44 miles per day, and that’s remarkably consistent, even on weekends. I don’t spend more than $150 per month on gas. According to a page on http://www.chevrolet.com, it will cost about $1.50 to charge a Volt. That’s works out to $45 a month. For the ease of calculation, let’s say I spend $5 per month on gas for a Volt. I might save $100 per month on fuel. I think that number is pretty optimistic.
Saving your personal funds is not a reason to buy a Volt. I’m just trying to be objective, here, not trying to bash the Volt.
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:41 pm)There being no contention among the board this CEO transition should be transparent to Leadership. That being the case, newly elected CEO Daniel Akerson no doubt plans to ensure VOLT’s pricing controversial is not made worse by dealer price gouging.
As to Lyle’s challenge: A creative dealer (or GM could suggest) incentives to gain valuable PR tying VOLT with GM’s IPO. Done right, a VOLT dealer could realize many times more free ink than any premium on a VOLT sale.
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:48 pm)Sounds like you are agreeing with DonC. He was just saying some are good and some are for all car manufacturers. Sounds like you found a good used car dealer.
While I agree there is some legitimacy to DonC’s point, I think there are different flavors for the different brands. There are some brand policies and procedures that each dealer has to follow as well as a portion of the service is passed through the dealer from the manufacturer. This is why Lexus and Cadillac dealers can have consistantly better service than their lower end counterparts. Of course there is more margin in selling these vehicles to support the higher service.
One thing I would like to see the industry address as a whole is to move more towards a buyer freindly sales approach. I’m not talking about lowering prices. It seems that so many dealers/salespeople are cut from the same cloth and they have an excruciating, time consuming approach. The approach should let the customer dictate the process a little more instead of trying to cram a sale or “outlast” the customer.
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:50 pm)I think the issue with the Leaf, that makes it different for the price pressure (since its sold out for next year as well) compared to the Volt is that there are no dealer allocations of the vehicles for the Leaf.
Deliveries only come through Leaf orders placed by customers through Nissan, not allocated to the dealer – and the dealers now have to compete to get the deliveries at the whim of the customers (hence you have some reports of dealers actually going below MSRP to get the delivery for a vehicle that is already sold out for 2011).
This changes the whole environment (not as good as if there was enough capacity of the vehicle for demand) and should prevent the abuses we’re starting to see based on the dealer allocation model GM is using for the Volt.
It would have been nice if GM had gone this route as the pressure for price markup would be much lower, but such is life.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (1:50 pm)You can also just “deny” those additional dealer services/features.
They are NOT mandatory.
Sheesh!
WOT
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:01 pm)Seems to me $1.50 is a LOT to charge the Volt, even for the full 8kwh! (works out to 18.75 cents per kwhr.)
Based on the most recent data I can find with a few exceptions, most states don’t ever see rates much more than 13 cents per 1kwhr (on average) which would be $1.04
http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
Where are you? (Conneticut?) and what is your rate?
Just curious…
WOT
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:10 pm)OK, I was called this morning from a Volt specific call-center as a followup to my order. A few here have already experienced this. She told me I will have a personal Volt contact person who will call me when production starts in November and keep me up-to-date. The website MyVolt.com which we can also use to monitor progress is not up and won’t be until then.
So the nice young lady on the other side offered to answer any other questions. Having read this blog already today, I asked “Can you tell me the mpg for the Volt?” She didn’t have anything in front of her, so she put me on hold and went to ask her supervisor. When she got back, I could hear her flipping though papers, she hesitantly said 230 mpg but then backed off when she realized that was out of date. Like all of us, she didn’t know. “When will we know?” “Sometime closer to the end of the year.” “Can you tell me where I am in the queue?” “No, your salesperson may be able to help you with that.” My salesperson told me I was no. 2 in line but he was told by GM not to promise December since the build takes 1 week and the shipping takes 3 weeks and there is vacation time in there.
She took my email address and said I would receive news releases before the general public, to which I corrected her saying that everyone is told any news at exactly the same time, since it will be posted on the internet, probably this site, as soon as the email arrives.
One thing for those of you curious or otherwise actively engaged in this, she gave me a phone number that I can call anytime with my Volt questions: 1-888-865-8496 (1-888-Volt4You). Try it but I bet you already know more than the person on the other end of the line.
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:11 pm)Hmmmm 69! Gotta love that post number.
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:17 pm)Gen2 Prius’ 1.5L BSFC peaked at 230 g/kWh but Gen3 Prius’ 1.8L peaks at 220 g/kWh with a very wide 230 g/kWh all the way down to 1,000 RPM. Do we have similar BSFC map of Volt or Cruze’s gas engine?
http://priuschat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25073&d=1281813286
The screen shot of the Volt in the April battery update (page 9) showed CS mode reaching 31.5 MPG (4.1 miles / 0.18 gallon). It also showed Lifetime 60.5 MPG.
http://priuschat.com/forums/attachments/chevrolet-volt/25058d1281759995-calculation-details-volts-230mpg-city-estimate-volt-lifetime-mpg.jpg
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:21 pm)Fuel cost for the Volt will depend on location and policy. For example: A Volt will cost about $1.20 to charge in my garage. My workplace offers a few charge outlets so I may be able to cut the cost in half. My workplace also offers $50 per month bonus for driving an electric car. Let’s do the math.
30 days charge at home = $36
Less workplace 120V charge = -$18
Less workplace bonus of $50 = -$32
So the Volt WILL PAY ME $32 per month in fuel cost. Normally drive 13,000 miles per year at 25 MPG or 520 gallons at $3 (CR-V truck).
Total fuel savings per year: $1560 gasoline + 12 X $32 workplace credit $384 = $1944 per year savings on fuel driving the Volt 13,000 miles.
If I take 3 or 4 vacation trips per year will need to buy more gasoline. Let’s call it a realistic savings of $1700 per year. Over a 10 year period = $17,000
=D-Volt
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:24 pm)Volt does not have a Flex fuel engine to date ,but in later years has been reported it will ! so must run Premium Fuel,but with knock sensor could run Reg. fuel on emergency basis but would not be optimum. Plus important Factor some are leaving out you need to install Home Charging point @ Min. will be around $2200.00 installed for 220 charging to get 3 to 4 hr. charging times.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:24 pm)As I cited, this comes from GM, not based on my electric rate.
I googled “cost to charge the volt” and followed this link:
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do
On that page, they are “Answers” to questions, one being: “How much does Volt cost to charge?”
I’m no electrical engineer, but, I think it’s probably going to take more than 8kWh to restore 8kW of battery capacity. That’s why I figured GM’s number would be more appropriate than a number concocted by myself.
Effectively, I paid 15.6 cents per kWh on my latest utility bill, when the ridiculous laundry list of charges, surcharges, taxes, and fees are factored in. My utility is APS – Phoenix, AZ.
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:24 pm)“† Fuel economy estimates based on GM simulation data”. Clarifications were given that 50 MPG is unadjusted.
Prius is rated 74 MPG prior to the adjusted 50 MPG.
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:30 pm)AP today: U.S. ban on drilling?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/With-BP-spill-under-control-apf-1538884512.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=
=D-Volt
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:32 pm)Under lease Term $ 350.00/month 2500 upfront 12000 miles/per year more than that upside down in lease.
-8
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:40 pm)Talk about short-term memory. The Volt is late to the hybrid party by at least 10 years in the US. $41k for a 4 seater is uninspiring. You like to think that 40 city EV miles is desirable for $41k + dealer add-on.
Is your goal to reduce oil dependence or to eliminate it?
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (2:40 pm)For 3 years
-5
Aug 14th, 2010 (3:07 pm)If you lease a Prius, you’ll spend $30 per month more on fuel but you save $160 per month on the lease. You don’t need to plug it in and you get a bigger, faster, lower emission proven car with longer battery warranty.
If you want to own (instead of lease), Prius will buy you more hightech features for less money.
If the plugin premium is $4k, it is definitely worth my effort to it plugin everyday for the payback and reduction in gas consumption by 50% (50->75 MPG). However to pay back $20k plugin premium with unknown gas consumption reduction, it will take a lot of work, not worth it IMHO.
-5
Aug 14th, 2010 (3:18 pm)Don’t forgot Denise Gray as well.
+4
Aug 14th, 2010 (3:23 pm)Or you can choose to not install a 220 charging station and just plug it into a regular outlet to charge overnight.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 14th, 2010 (3:24 pm)I’d be happy to pick up at the factory and deliver to my dealer saving delivery cost and three weeks on delivery date!!
Aug 14th, 2010 (3:31 pm)Just means there are other differences in the engine designs besides the displacement.
Aug 14th, 2010 (3:38 pm)stuart22, I read their selling below MSRP in a different light! Perhapes they realize the importance of EV technology for all the positive effects in will have on the American way of life. Instead of being greedy like it looks like some dealers are, they should be appreciated for understanding how important it may turn out that we are transitioning over to electric transportation away from a petroleum one.
Years from now, we may all look back and realize the changes that EV transportation of today have brought about:
improvement in the quality of air we breath
less noise from motor vehicles
reliance of home energy sources instead of bondage to foreign petroleum
the advent of a new industrial revolution in the United States
the renewal of American inventiveness
and even changes in global atmospheric heating.
The Volt, the Ampera, the Leaf, the MiEV, the Tesla Roadster, and every other EV, and every hybrid will contribute to so many positive changes in society. Just as the Space Program fostered so many new inventions that lead to new businesses, the rebirth of the Electric Automobile will do the same. The ball is now rolling and accelerating into the future. IMHO, once “the world” sees this renewed invention for its true value, the transition will gain in speed. The demand for this type of technology will necessitate increased production and present great opportunities for those willing to commit to it.
So, for dealers who recognize what is really good about EV technology, and show what they think about how important it is for us to adopt it as soon as possible, they get my respect and continuing business.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-3
Aug 14th, 2010 (3:44 pm)MIDDLE market offers midsize, midprice, midperformance vehicles.
What is Volt intended to compete with?
Aug 14th, 2010 (3:54 pm)bookdabook: I went ahead and called the 888 number, since I had a question that I didn’t have any idea what the answer is (therefore I don’t know more than they do, and they might know more than me
). I asked her if they could tell me how it can be towed: four wheels on the ground, on a tow dolly behind a motorhome, or on a trailer. After consulting with whoever they could find (a team leader), they were only willing to say that it could not be towed with four wheels on they ground and that you could haul it on a trailer with four wheels off the ground. Then they said I should check with my dealer for more information. I do the answer there, I always know more than my dealer, who is not in the initial release area.
CorvetteGuy: do you know if you can tow a Volt using a tow dolly?
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:12 pm)Welcome back! Please keep us posted on the details of your Volt adventure. Did you see CorvetteGuys post with all the info? Not one you’d want to miss.
Be well,
Tagamet
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:18 pm)DonC, I read the link and wonder where you got “It says the combination of CD and CS Modes could give you an equivalent of 50 MPG.”
Also, the generator/engine does recharge the battery whenever it produces more power than the traction motor requires.
Also. GM specifies premium gas to prevent degradation of the gas but I bet that you can use regular gasoline, E85, or bio-diesel fuels as stated on their website. As long as you are consistently driving more than the 40 AER, you would use the ICE.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:25 pm)My math is quite simple. My wife’s commute is 16 miles each way, 5 days a week. With the Volt, she will not need gas for her routine daily commute. She currently spends about $50 per week on gas for her Jaguar, which requires premium gas. So, $50 per week times 4 weeks per month is $200. Plus I plan on using the Volt on my weekend errands and trips to the gym. So, there you have it…..$200-$300 per month.
Btw, my savings estimate on gas did not include the cost of charging the Volt. Regardless, I have solar panels on my house so I’m not too concerned about electricity costs.
Finally, I never meant to imply that saving personal funds was justification for my Volt, only that the Volt will realize some savings since I will not need to buy the same amount of gas that I currently use.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:26 pm)It operates at lower consumption level than Diesel due to Atkinson cycle and E-CVT killer combo. Volt and Cruze will use the same Otto cycle. It will consume more from that combustion cycle perspective. Until we see BSFC for the 1.4L engine, we can’t be certain.
What is certain is that Volt doesn’t have direct mechanical drive but the Cruze does. Cruze is rated at highway 40 MPG (best scenario). Can the Volt make up the 25% conversion loss by operating on the optimal RPM with the same Otto cycle? For your reference, moving from Otto to Atkinson cycle gain about 16%.
-5
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:32 pm)Jaguar to Chevy and Chevy will cost more and you’ll have to plug it in?
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:34 pm)Wow, what’s the gas mileage of the Jag? Thanks!
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:49 pm)Well here is the quote:
At the start of your trip, you can drive approximately 40 miles on your charged electric battery. Then the range-extending power source will automatically come on to recharge the battery as required so that you can keep driving with either gasoline or E85. A trip like this could give you an estimated 50 equivalent miles per gallon using gasoline.
It’s saying 40 miles electric + whatever MPG = 50 equivalent MPG. To me “the trip” therefore includes both CD and CS Modes. Other than this, not exactly sure what it’s saying, but it’s definitely talking about “the trip” including the EV miles, and it’s definitely not saying that after the EV miles you’re getting 50 MPG.
Also I have no idea what it means to “recharge the battery as required”. Huh? The battery doesn’t require recharging. You changed this by saying when the genset produces more than the motor requires, which is true but not what the page says.
Finally, you can’t use E85 in a vehicle without damaging it unless the fuel lines and so forth are designed for E85. It’s not like using regular gas when the manual says premium.
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:51 pm)Now I know your full of it! You have just lost any semblance of credibility.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:56 pm)So many errors, it is hard to know where to start.
All other things being equal (they never are):
higher RPM, more friction and therefore more engine work
Larger throttle opening, less friction and therefore less engine work
Greater manifold pressure, less engine work.
And on and on ….
Smaller combustion engines tend to have smaller pumping losses than large engines, but at high demands tend to run at higher RPM. It is a futile exercise to guess which engine is preferable if the drive cycle is not specified, the gearing unknown, the engine control algorithms unspecified, the valve cycle offsets unknown …
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (4:59 pm)About 17-18 MPG. Please don’t try to “over-think” my estimates since there is a lot more to it. For example, after my wife gets home from work, she’ll plug in the charger. A couple of hours later, we’ll go out for dinner or shopping on some days. So my estimates are very “ball-park”, but I think it is reasonable. Btw, we also have a Hummer, so the more we use the Volt, the more gas we’ll save.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:01 pm)Math is right if Jag gets ~ 11 mpg. Put her in a Sherman tank instead, and watch the savings skyrocket.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:08 pm)Cruze engine also needs operate over a wider speed range. Volt can be optimized to run the generator in a narrow speed range. The Atkinson cycle point has been brought up before and it has been pointed out that GM has used similar technology without much bragging about it. Neither of us has the performance data to do more than SWAG. Mine is just different than yours.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:17 pm)All the time, actually. In fact, about half the amount you have been wasting these past 10 years that you have done nothing but stick a thumb in your mouth. And compared to the Volt, not much more (if any) depending on drive cycle, at a reasonable price.
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:19 pm)I think you are forgetting the Volt engine control: CD, then CS. NOT blended mode.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:31 pm)Sure did. I was only sorry I could only give +1.
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:31 pm)Sadly, I have never been able to drive a gas free car, but I have driven 5 passenger hatchbacks that have gotten 30 mpg or better since 1976.
-8
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:32 pm)http://www.gm.com/vehicles/hybrids-and-electric/electric/
“The Voltec Electric Propulsion System
Seventy-eight percent of commuters drive 40 miles or less to and from work.* If we could change the technology behind these daily drives, imagine how much gasoline and money we could save while helping reduce emissions.”
Save money ? hahahahahahaahhahhaaa
Reduce emissions: around the time coal becomes “clean.”
Save gasoline ? Sure, just don’t drive past 40 miles (at best) per charge.
GM advertising is pathetic. Do people really swallow this garbage ?
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:35 pm)As I said originally, I didn’t read it that way at all. In, MO, your reading into the statement. If you have been reading the comments here on GM-Volt.com for some time, you know about the infamous 230 MPG. You know that the actual MPG result for an EREV would vary and in some situations be far higher than the 230 MPG. That means that there is not a set MPG using gasoline with the CS and CD combined. Therefore, it must be the MPG for the ICE using only gasoline.
If you would go back and read the past articles on this issue, you would stop finding fault over every word used. By understanding how the Volt power-train functions, you wouldn’t find yourself making such giant leaps of interpretation. The generator does charge the battery as needed. Upon regenerative breaking, the battery is recharged. Upon the SOC dropping below 30%, (say for providing additional assist to the generator supplied electricity when accelerating up a hill) the battery needs to be recharged back to 30% SOC.
As far as E85 usage, we will just have to wait and see if they will incorporate the upgraded fuel lines in the GEN1 Volt. CorvetteGuy please answer this question if you can. I know you have not seen the manual yet, or have you?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:37 pm)Hey there. Information about ‘being towed’ has not been disclosed. The first training session was clear that the Volt is NOT designed to ‘tow a trailer or other vehicle’.
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:38 pm)30 mpg combined, or highway ? EPA, or *your actual results* ?
The last time I owned a car that only returned 30 mpg (actual) was 15 years ago. For the past 10 years I have averaged 50 mpg. The proclamations of wanting to drive gasoline free ring very hollow around here.
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:52 pm)Thanks. We just got a good used motor home and haven’t decided what to tow as a “dinghy” and how to tow it. Several of my friends swear by having something you can tow “four wheels down” with a tow bar. I’d like to be able to tow a Volt (when I can get one in New Mexico), but it’s obviously not going to be done with a tow bar. Now I just need to know if I can use a tow dolly with the Volts back wheels on the ground. I’m looking at a possible tow dolly that says it works for vehicles with low clearance in front. It also has its own brakes so the Volts brakes aren’t part of the arrangement.
I was hoping it might be in the training materials. It should be in the owners manual when you get that (you know, the one with the size of the fuel tank cut out).
Let me know if you find out. Post here or PM to “Sojourner.” – Thanks.
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:55 pm)Keeping in mind that I do own a Prius, you Prius advocates on this forum should take your arguments back to the Prius chat rooms you so often quote from. I have noticed that your obvious bias has cost you so much credibility, that even when you do have reasonable things to say, people automatically start giving you -1 no matter what.
Since you have failed to realized that communication is a two-way process, quit wasting everyone’s time.
For my part, I told Toyota NPNS a LONG time ago and it appears that they only partially answered the call with their next iteration. Quit preaching about hypotheticals- if it won’t run without gas, IT AIN’T AN EV!!!!!
I brought this up the other day after watching the “Collapse” documentary and it is worth repeating. But first an analogy. Why does one pay (normally) so little for life insurance when we are all guaranteed to die? Of course we know that the insurance is against WHEN we are going to die. We buy it (for its moderate cost) because of the consequences of being without it in case of the small (but CATASTROPHIC) nature of dying early. WELL, WHAT HAPPENS IF OIL DIES EARLY? Where will you and your next-gen Prius be then? Whether it be 40 miles (Volt) or 100 miles (Leaf), I personally consider it foolhardy to spend large sums of money on anything that is expected to last 10 years and won’t run without petrol. To do so is the equivalent of assuming that life insurance, similarly, has zero value.
+6
Aug 14th, 2010 (5:55 pm)You must live in a glass house with a reflective coating on the inside. There are many people who don’t drive over 40 miles per day. Just because you drive more than 40 miles doesn’t mean it applies to everyone. I happen to be one of those people that on most days don’t drive 40 miles. Of course there are days I must travel further. The day will come when a better part of our population will be driving an EV back and forth to work and on short trips to the store. When that happens, consumption of gasoline will drop significantly. When drivers realize how much they will save, the transition will accelerate. It will happen in your lifetime if your lucky to live another ten years. Maybe sooner.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-7
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:12 pm)I have noticed that once someone posts something viewed negatively by the Volt faithful (regardless of merit), they start ‘negging’ subsequent posts in hopes of driving the “troll” away, or devaluing the post.
The fact of matter is that the Prius community is 10 years ahead of you people, and it shows. Blind “negging” just screams ignorance or inferiority.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:21 pm)If it’s clear to you, then tell me what “50 equivalent miles per gallon using gasoline” means. We know about MPGe but it’s not talking about that I’d presume. And “50 miles per gallon equivalent” certainly doesn’t mean “50 miles per gallon” — you don’t say 1/2 cup of X equivalent if you’re using X, you just say 1/2 cup of X. My guess is the author was confused and was thinking that if you used 7 gallons to go 350 miles, 40 miles in CD Mode and 310 miles in CS Mode, that would give you the “equivalent” of going 350 miles at 50 MPG.
As for E85, no reason to check. GM has already announced the first year cars will not be E85 capable. http://gm-volt.com/2010/02/17/gm-says-first-year-chevy-volts-will-not-be-e85-capable-calls-for-more-e85-stations/
-6
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:25 pm)” WELL, WHAT HAPPENS IF OIL DIES EARLY? Where will you and your next-gen Prius be then? Whether it be 40 miles (Volt) or 100 miles (Leaf), I personally consider it foolhardy to spend large sums of money on anything that is expected to last 10 years and won’t run without petrol.”
This sounds like a version of the “peak oil” argument. Oil will not “run out”, it will become progressively more expensive as demand exceeds supply. Your $45000 dollars and $200/month interest (decreasing over time as you pay off the car) will buy a lot of expensive gasoline. And remember, nothing prevents me from buying a less expensive, more reliable, longer range EV later on if petrol prices skyrocket.
I’m sorry, but your economic argument just does not cut it, particularly since you can hedge your petrol price increases much less expensively by buying a hybrid today that cuts your fuel costs in half, assuming you “have” to replace a car today.
So long as I am debunking forum favorite arguments, even the “save gasoline” mantra does not fly in a free market society. Your savings will be someone else’s use. That is what “supply and demand” means.
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:28 pm)You know, you say so much about yourself in this post. First off, I IDENTIFIED MYSELF AS AN OWNER OF A PRIUS!!!! ‘You people’?? Puh-lease! To date, I have owned FOUR, count ‘em FOUR hybrids- and THREE OF THEM WERE TOYOTA’s. Your rant about being 10 years ahead screams of the arrogant DEAFNESS you have to relating to BOTH SIDES of an issue. And this is the SAME REASON that I am ANGRY with Toyota. You share the same arrogant deafness with them. They really did achieve great things with the Prius, but as Lee Iococca used to say in the commercials, “Lead, Follow or Get out of the way.”
Thanks EricLG, you just substantiated why everyone has stopped really listening to you and a few of the other Prius fans so well known to “US PEOPLE”.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:29 pm)OK. Maybe we can agree on this. The technology in the Prius is ten years behind that in the Volt, and Volt fans are ten years behind Prius fans!
FWIW everyone I know who currently owns a Prius are planning to buy either a Volt or a Leaf. They’re not planning on buying another Prius although they are not necessarily selling it. So to some extent the “Prius community” is going to become either the “Volt community” or the “Leaf community”. If you doubt this, just check out yesterday’s Science Friday on NPR. The host of the show, which featured the Leaf and the Volt, began by saying that while he had a Prius, he really wanted an electric car.
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:38 pm)See comment 97. Also, just because you may experience something different doesn’t mean others are wrong.
+4
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:39 pm)Did you also notice we are not interested in the Prius? The Plug-in model only gets 13 miles AER. Combine that with the horrible review of it in Car and Driver, and you have one big yawn from most of us. So why do you bother trying to convince us of your imagined superiority?
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:40 pm)You’re right that oil is not going to run out. But your “buy a hybrid it’s cheaper” argument doesn’t wash. If all you’re worried about is saving money you should buy a Honda Fit or or a Hyundi Sonata or, for that matter, a Nissan Cube.
The Prius was never about saving money on gas. It was about green creed and interesting technology. With the advent of the Leaf and the Volt the Prius is no longer a leader in either category. People who care about national security and the environment, or those who want the smooth, clean, and responsive EV drive, will fall into two camps. Those who want zero tailpipe emissions and no gas will opt for the Leaf. Those willing to use some gas and produce some emissions in return for eliminating range limitations will opt for the Volt.
Assuming they can afford it of course.
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:42 pm)Then you don’t know many Prius owners.
You are right, though, that the Prius demographic is in general pro-EV, and certainly avid readers and lurkers. All the more reason that the forum virulence against Prius owners is downright silly and self-defeating. Fwiw, my overwhelming impression of current Prius owners that are soon to be EV owners want the Leaf and not the Volt.
The reasons seem to vary, but the top ones (in no particular order) are:
1. Cost
2. EV range
3. Distrust or antipathy towards GM
Flmark, take a deep breath. “You people” is not a racist insult, it is simply this forum’s regulars.
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:45 pm)Dude… Just suck it up… When I was posting that the price was going to be over $40K and approaching $45K. I was neg’d like crazy, even though I layed out my argument. However, I still think the VOLT is superior/optimum technology for this point in time. When I go up against a Leaf blower or non Volt person discussing the superiority of the VOLT, I get plus rankings in to the green zone. Lay out your argument, if people agree great, if not don’t cry about it. In some cases you will be proven right ( I was on pricing) and maybe you will be proven wrong over time. My latest negs come from predicting CS mode mpg. Now I have posted along with others on a forum page and will shortly find out who is right. BTW, I don’t think a low (35 mpg) CS is bad for the VOLT.
Keep posting, but stop whining….
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:45 pm)It’s probably less than 13 miles on a more demanding US cycle. Maybe 10. But that’s not the worst part. The EV drive is also limited to very light accelerations and 60 MPH. Really, where is the fun if you can’t occasionally outsprint a Corvette to the next traffic light?
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:45 pm)“Progressively”? Hmmm. Progressively? I chose to keep your other comment because in a ‘free market’ economy, we have ALREADY SEEN what happens to oil prices if even a effin hiccup hits the supply chain. Remember Katrina? Remember what happened to the price of oil due to speculation a couple years ago? Nope, you are delusional. The bell curve has a precipitous dropoff once you get past the plateau and oil will become so expensive so fast, WE WON’T KNOW WHAT HIT US until every facet of life is in the effin toilet all at once!!!!!!
Remember, BTW I did discuss this in relation to the concept of ‘life insurance’. I truly hope this does not come to pass, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on ‘progressively’. I must confront the fact that EVERYONE, all at once, may be clamoring for any available EV- even if they have to STEAL MINE to get it. Go back to Never Never land, it’s much nicer there than in the real world.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:47 pm)Oh, I forgot to mention… most people on this site want to buy an American-made car. Even if the Prius performance figures were as good as the Volt, (and it’s looking like they are not) most here would still pass. It’s nothing personal. We just want to get away from foreign cars and foreign oil. Mostly the foreign oil, and making OPEC ministers cry like little girls…
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:53 pm)Ok Mike… LOL I think you are making an “OXYMORON” statement… A motor home pulling the VOLT
I have more fun watching a motor home pull an Excalade!
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:53 pm)I’d agree with you if you said “are planning to get a Leaf not a Volt” rather than “want the Leaf and not the Volt”. If the price were the same and product was available, the Volt would have a clear advantage. But it’s not so it doesn’t. For that I blame GM management, but that’s a different story.
-3
Aug 14th, 2010 (6:57 pm)Well, if you think the “hybrid is cheaper” argument does not hold, then it is multiple times worse for the Volt.
And actually, the argument *is* correct depending on vehicle use. Do the math for someone like me who keeps a car until it is ready for the junkyard, or high mileage users.
You are absolutely correct that early adopters of the Prius included many people who spent the money out of interest. I was part of that group, although not just that group. It is actually why I keep abreast of the Volt, although the daily march of lowering expectations from GM just makes me think that either the engineering is bad, or trade-offs I would not have made were pursued for marketing reasons.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:03 pm)“50 equivalent miles per gallon using gasoline” means exactly that! Using only gasoline (no mention of electric charge), the 50 mpg is what you get from the ICE.
And thanks for the link about E85 usage. I still wonder if GM will make GEN1 E85 capable later in the year as an upgrade for those who have access to E85 in their region. Note that the link you cite is dated FEB 17! With the new CEO in charge, changes could be possible.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:12 pm)Thanks for the sympathy, I can handle the negs
Pointing out childish conduct by some of the posters here is not whining.
fwiw, I am not trying to sway anybodys opinion away from wanting a Volt. There are *much* worse car choices, no matter how mediocre CS mpg turns out to be.
CorvetteGuy, your “buy American” sales pitch does not stand up to superficial inspection. Or maybe you missed the news where GM decided to buy the traction battery, instead of supporting domestic ? Or GM moving plants to Mexico ? Or selling 100% Korean, rebadged as “Chevys?”
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:27 pm)You guys can post here all you want. It’s a free country. But you’re not going to change anyone’s mind. I find it laughable that in all of your ‘Prius posts’ there is this underlying feeling of PANIC that an American carmaker has finally come up with something BETTER than your 10-year-old hybrid, and there is NOTHING you can do to stop it. So you keep trying and trying to convince us of the errors of our ways! Nah. We don’t buy it.
Rant some more! We all login here to get our daily giggle from you guys
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:27 pm)Most of the people here (Volt fans) that have followed the Volts development know that the idea of adding a range extender was based upon evidence of range anxiety of the EV1. Whether the idea is valid today or not, GM targeted a large part of the driving populous by choosing 40 AER as their engineering target. As a commuter car, the Volt will fill the bill quite fine. For many of those families that have more than one car, it will end the need for filing up with gas entirely on the commute to work. Should the owner because of an emergency need to travel over 40 miles, there will be no problem because of the range extender. On long trips, those people will use their ICE vehicle until the time comes to replace that vehicle with a new one. Those people who are in the single vehicle category have no problem either. So where do you think wrong decisions were made on engineering the Volt?
Judging from the reviews by individuals here that got the opportunity to test drive the Volt, I can’t think of one factor that GM engineering didn’t consider. Those individuals were for the most part impressed with the Volts performance.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:39 pm)Can I ditto that CorvetteGuy? I sure can!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Not only do I get a daily giggle, it stimulates my mind coming up with comments on their posts.
And they do bring up issues of interest in the Volt.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:46 pm)#111 EricLG Said:
“The fact of matter is that the Prius community is 10 years ahead of you people, and it shows. Blind “negging” just screams ignorance or inferiority.”
From my observations, there are probably more Prius drivers on this site than a lot of “Prius sites”. Thank goodness they’re not all Elitists like you.
-6
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:52 pm)Obviously premature, but I say bad engineering regarding the presumed CS mpg. It *may* be the price to pay for a 3800 pound vehicle, but I doubt that is the entire answer.
I also criticize the complex double-clutch transmission. GM has a reliability gap to close, and this design just sounds like reusing old tech from the shelf rather than doing the work needed for a good simple serial hybrid design. I actually expect this design to disappear in a generation or two if the Volt survives.
There have been so many discussions guessing how big a market the Volt has, I doubt I have anything new to add. Just in case, I’ll summarize:
Two car families who want EV will on rational grounds choose one hybrid, one pure EV like the Leaf that has longer range, greater seating, and is cheaper;
Single car individuals are typically young; and to the extent they have the money (or credit) opt for muscle cars.
Greenies tend to opt for the Leaf, for the reasons I outlined earlier.
And I know it is unpopular to mention here, but you should not lose sight of the fact the a large fraction of the “green” and “EV” enthusiast community holds a severe grudge against GM.
-3
Aug 14th, 2010 (7:55 pm)By “elitist” do you mean that I have lived a conservation and anti-OPEC life for decades, not just when GM tells me I should ?
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:16 pm)EricLG, it seems foolish to me to be burning up petroleum when there are other fuels around that can serve our purpose, and petroleum is important to the production of so many products. You seem to think that petroleum availability will never be a problem. It already is: it’s why we are fighting wars across the ocean. Also, it’s not about “save gasoline”, it’s about ending our dependence on foreign fuel. And all the other side benefits from reducing the burning of fossil fuels.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:20 pm)Interesting claim. I’ve known people who got behind the wheel and observed that distance, hard acceleration, and faster speeds, yet those reports are simply dismissed. Raise doubt to the contrary, eh? Whatever. Those words can come back to haunt later.
For me, it’s the same old measure of merit. Progress is indicated by actual sales.
5,000 per month is mainstream volume. 15,000 per month makes the top-20 list. 30,000 per month is a best-seller. How much for a game-changer?
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:21 pm)Tony Posawatz quotes:
“We’ve added a little lag during acceleration on the demo cars. That will gone when we launch.”
“We’re using 9th generation OnStar blackbox in the Volt. So this communication system is not new.”
“We are saying it takes 8 1/2 hours to charge the Volt using a standard 120V outlet. This accounts for any battery conditioning needed during plug-in to maximize battery function. If you live in California, charging time will be less.”
“The smarts are built into the car. So your 240V charging unit does not need to complicated.”
“We didn’t go too heavy with the low setting regen shift position. Didn’t want to have a need for the brake lights to come on.”
“This demo car is very quiet. The glass in the production car will be twice as thick. Making the cabin more quiet.”
=D-Volt
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:31 pm)nobody is going to buy gm in the future, just go away.. If you’r not going to take care of your loyal customers you don’t deserve my money. they should of sold directly to customers period. Take note new CEO
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:34 pm)As for the two cars families that was before the Volt. Now they can choose from a hybrid or an EREV like the Volt. I think the Volt is the better choice.
Single car individuals will find the instant torque of an EV exhilarating.
What is a “Greeny” anyway? ;( And so let them choose the Leaf. It’s a vehicle that will meet the needs of many city dwellers.
I think those that had a grudge against GM will become a thing of the past. It’s so childish to hold a grudge for so long, especially when everything around us is changing so fast.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:34 pm)FYI, Prius is an AT-PZEV vehicle so the battery has 10 years / 150k miles in the CARB emission states. The Volt only has 8 years / 100k miles warranty and it does not qualify for AT-PZEV.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:39 pm)Judging from this link your obviously wrong on that!
http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/12/gm-reports-massive-1-33-billion-quarterly-earnings-looks-to-file-for-ipo-friday/
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:40 pm)Please explain.
What will appeal to the mainstream consumer?
Let’s hear your $41,000 sales pitch.
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:43 pm)I don’t think you have a valid comparison between the two batteries! What is the rating of the Prius battery pack?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (8:57 pm)john1701a, just look back at the reasons given by others. I generally agree with them. Sorry but in so many ways, the Volt is superior. I agree that the Volt looks better than the Leaf. I believe the battery management in the Volt makes it a much safer choice. The OnStar five year inclusion is a big seller. It’s American made! I believe in buy American. And many other reasons.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:02 pm)Who cares about CARB? The rebate program is only funded for about 800 vehicles (all of the various vehicles) this year. And maybe they will fund another 800 vehicles next year. That includes Tesla (those buyers need an extra rebate), etc. And with Leaf probably delaying their roll-out, there will be only a few that get the rebate. Money will be all gone before a PHEV Prius gets on the market.
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:10 pm)Today we sent $800,000,000 overseas for oil (more or less I presume).
I want a Volt (In Red)
+8
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:14 pm)If it is still a given that most of us share the goal of securing independence from foreign oil, (and I believe that it still is) then shouldn’t we be celebrating the electrification of transportation *and* all technologies that move us toward that goal? We’ve been on the journey here together for years now, and the Volt almost has those wheels on the road! Other vehicles also will help us get to where we want to be, including the LEAF and the Prius.
This has always been a site where people can have genuine disagreements without being toooo disagreeable. Statik and I spent years disagreeing (almost a full-time job for us both), and we’ve ended up friends! Today’s posts feel like we’ve set a new record for divisiveness. I guess I’m just trying to say “Can’t we all just get along”, without actually saying that. This is a time when this site should be joyous. So let’s all celebrate *everything* that moves us toward our goals! JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:16 pm)I am not here for credibility or Nobel peace prize. I don’t expect to make friends or enemy here. I am just here to defend the negativities and misinformation about Prius. I present information from all sources. The most knowledgeable location will get referenced more often. I may show bias (because I love my Prius) and if I do, correct me. Straighten me up (as you took the courage to voice your opinion); I don’t mind. Thanks for the feedback.
Per your definition, Volt is not an EV. In my opinion, it is a wannabe EV, wannabe HV that does neither good.
I think a lot of people here have 15 MPG vehicles. 15 MPG vehicles will consume 10,000 gallon of gasoline in its lifetime (150k miles). Switching to 50 MPG $23k Prius would cut 7,000 gallons of gas but they refuse to (and they are entitled to). Instead, they are looking to spend $41k on Volt to cut another 2,000 gallons of gas.
BTW, don’t let death dictate how you live your life or let the peak oil dictate what you drive. The goal is to reduce consumption. If we reduce enough consumption, we’ll become independent from foreign oil. The man who moved the mountain started by moving rocks.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:17 pm)I forgot were not comparing the Volt and the Leaf. You’re a Prius fan and the comment was relevant to hybrids vs the Volt EREV. So here it is.
The Volt will reduce our use of foreign oil much faster than the Prius
The Volt looks better than the Prius.
It will use far less gasoline than the Prius even a plug in Prius.
The battery pack will last as long as the Prius battery pack and is much more powerful. Therefore, we can’t compare the two batteries to each other.
The Volt has OnStar for five years.
The Volt is made in America.
And also, I believe in buy American!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:20 pm)Well, it is a natural response because the other side was screaming mine does 40 EV miles and yours does only 13, so mine is more advanced.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:22 pm)P.S.
Wife drives a Prius 50mpg
I currently drive a Miata 34mpg
Or if I need to, the HHR 30mpg
If is snowing, or we are going to haul something we use the Colorado 22mpg
So if you are going to trade in your Bimmer or Escalade for a Volt, please do. We will all be better off. I hope to some day find a Red Volt on a GM Red Tag Sale… Then discount it some more with GM card cash… Then the Volt will be competitive. Everything is better on sale.
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:24 pm)Hi Guys
28 yr old female here, I wanna say I love the volt, but cant afford one yet. Question why are a lot of the post here concern E85. It cost 80 cents more per gallon to make and has to be subsidized.It is bad for food crops as many food crop farmers quit growing food stocks and started growing corn for E85 instead which was way more profitable for them and bad for consumers who realized higher food cost. E85 is bad for America period.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:26 pm)I would have agreed with you but Prius is on 3rd generation and it kept improving. What do you mean by technologically advanced? Does EV miles make it more advance? Would an electric bicycle that goes 100 miles per change more advance that a Prius?
There will be a lot of people that cannot afford $41k Volt. They will become part of “Leaf community”, “Prius community” or even future affordable “Toyota EV community”. Ultimately we’ll be part of the “Green community”.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:32 pm)And a plus one to you Tag!
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:36 pm)The Volt does not use E85, but if it did it would use less of it…
Hope you get your Volt!
Cheers
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:37 pm)I commented to my wife that you’d be the first to reply (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:42 pm)I usually check in this time of night, tell her I said hi.
Cheers/ Good Night.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:43 pm)My Prius has already saved me more money than if I would have kept my older compact car. On top of that saving money, I got a bigger, safer, more refined, quieter, jet-smooth car with Smart Key, backup camera, etc.
Tell me, what does the Volt do better than the Prius other the potential to use less gas? How do you justify $18k more?
Not only the Volt costs more, it compromises one rear seat, it is smaller overall (10.6 vs. 21.6 cu.ft cargo). It’s highway passing is lacking and we drive mostly on the highway. Come to think of it, Volt is better suited for downtown Tokyo or downtown Beijing.
The bottom line, Prius indeed saved money, gas, lowered emission with a load of premium hybrid exclusive features. On the other hand, it appears, Volt is just for the green image.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:45 pm)Done and done. Night!
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:46 pm)Couldn’t help but jump into this discussion. An EV is a vehicle driven by an electric motor. A hybrid is a vehicle that uses both mechanical and electric motors to drive the wheels. The Volt, as you will no doubt agree, has its wheels driven only through an electric motor. That’s what makes it an EV. It is definitely not a hybrid vehicle(HV), nor is it a wannabe HV.
Why you insist that the Volt ” does neither good.” I don’t understand. If you realize the inherent inefficiencies of the internal combustion engine you will understand why the electric motor with its higher efficiency is a better machine for powering a vehicle. There are just to many mechanical losses in the Prisus drive train. Until it becomes a plug in, using an electric motor connected directly to the wheels without the HSD, it will waste more energy than the Volt.
Toyota designed the HSD, a superb device, but it is mechanical and will never be as efficient as an electrical motor. Because it is a mechanical transmission of sorts, it can not match the torque of an electric drive. I like to see a race between a Prius and Volt. I bet the Volt would leave the Prius in the dust every time.
Also, what I don’t understand: A Plug-In Prius that will give only about 12 miles AER. Calcars rebuilds Prius cars to get 20 or 40 AER. What is Toyota doing here?!?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:46 pm)I have a question. What if Prius was build in America and Volt’s battery continue to import the from Korea?
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:49 pm)Again you miss the point. Re-read my post. It doesn’t MATTER which is the better vehicle! Both do good things and will help us as a nation.
Tagamet
-1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:53 pm)Absolutely, sale is the multiplier of reduction in consumption and pollution.
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:56 pm)Unfortunately for all of us, it has three more zeroes ($800,000,000,000). May be a little lower now with slightly lower oil price.
+1
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:56 pm)Hey Tag. You’re always sneaking in here when I’m busy composing minuets.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (9:59 pm)I was around the site all day. Finally had to try to get the team to huddle up!
Be well,
Tagamet
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:02 pm)To certified with AT-PZEV, your car must continues to consume and emit pollution below the threshold after 10 years / 150k miles. Volt’s consumption and emission is only guaranteed for 8 years / 100k miles. Beyond that, tough luck!
HOV lane also requires AT-PZEV with a plug. PHV Prius and Leaf are allowed but not the Volt due to this.
+5
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:10 pm)Just a perpective on price. I was driving by a heavy equipment dealer today and saw a used Case articulated front end loader in cherry condition for $28K and thought to myself “why is a four seater sedan $13K more than this huge piece of machinery?” I realize there is some new technology in the Volt, but nothing really revolutionary….gas engine, battery pack, electric motors…no flux capacitors or micro nuclear reactors.
$41k is a lot of money and it came as a big disappointment to me when it was announced. I think many customers will opt for the lease ( I know I will) regardless of the residual price. I intend this car to replace my wife’s PT Cruiser and know she will use almost no gas and stay within the 12K miles per month. At $350 per month this works but if I put 20% down and finance $32k it’s more like $550 (I’m thinking about down the road when the $7500 tax credit goes away). At that rate, the Volt does not become what we all hope it will be….the Model T of eledtric drive vehicles, available to all. As much as we would like to believe otherwise the price will NOT go down $10,000.
I want so much to see the Volt have a real impact on oil dependance but I don’t see it happening unless it sells under $30k. I’m going to get my Volt as soon as I can, but it MUST sell under $30k in year two or it’s going the way of the EV-1.
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:11 pm)Previous posts on this site indicate GM has been doing a great job working on design, technology, and testing of the VOLT.
There is always the next better tech item announced that might improve performance. Before ANY good company incorporates a new item it needs to be engineered and tested to make sure it fits with the existing product.
GM (and again any GOOD auto company) will do it right to be sure the customer trusts their products.
New batteries are out there, as noted here, and we may see them after they pass the tests.
Tech items for these cars are developing very fast… Keep reading these posts and we all will get great information about what is coming next. … exciting times for cars, especially electrics
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:16 pm)Never the less, time to say goodnight. – Michael
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:18 pm)I agree with your point. The reply was in regard to how you stated it. Prius does pay back but I don’t see how the Volt would; other than “I can plug it in”, “Made in America (with Korean battery)”, “I can smoke Corvette from 0-15 MPH”, or “Pure EV 40 miles baby”.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:19 pm)Exactly why I cannot help but view the “save gasoline” movement skeptically, even from a personal standpoint. As a national argument the US free market squashes it.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:21 pm)I didn’t get to read earlier posts so didn’t realize you were here at all. The thought , “I haven’t seen posts by Tag yet; wonder where he is?” came to mind. I should have know better. lol
Be Well and Prosper
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:21 pm)The belief that power from the traction motor must pass through a transmission is an incorrect assumption I suspect will become quite common once plug-in vehicles finally hit the market.
In reality, the big electric motor (MG2) is located on the outside of the PSD, the final component of the hybrid system in HSD.
In other words, that motor operates independently without the other motor or engine moving. They remain at rest while it does all the work up to 100 km/h (62.1 MPH).
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:23 pm)You’ve obviously made the assumption that everyone that comes to this site and wants a Volt has the same reason. This doesn’t happen to be the case. Never the less, I’m glad you got a good laugh.
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:24 pm)Here is a quote from a long analysis of the situation. As you can read, they also disagree with you:
“Japanese auto dealers are a widely diverse and dynamic group who provide an exceptionally high level of customer service in a fiercely competitive environment. While the internal structure of day-to-day business operations is different in many respects from that of dealers in the U.S., they share a high degree of interest with their American counterparts in testing and pursuing many kinds of new systems and marketing tools. Debates over the effectiveness of “one-price” showrooms are particularly intense and quite similar to trends in America.”
http://www.jama.org/library/studies051398.htm
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:24 pm)I’d like to help. What part of “It doesn’t matter” is confusing you? I really thought that you wanted to use less foreign oil.
Tagamet
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:26 pm)Not according to my reading of the articles published by our national labs, but I’m happy to hear numbers and analysis you seem to be privy to ?
-3
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:26 pm)I think a lot of people are on the same boat. Many will wait until it goes below $30k and not many will pay $11k extra just to be a new kid with the latest toy on the block. This creates chicken and egg problem.
+2
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:28 pm)Safe assumption (g). I didn’t post much. Trying to cut back, but I’m watching you! (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:30 pm)Then why does it matter, how I replied? We have already agreed that our goal is to reduce foreign oil.
+3
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:31 pm)Frightening thought, but true. Personally, I believe that all the Volts that are made, will be sold. Whether GM will continue to support the Volt remains to be seen. I hope that it’s still available when I *can* afford it!
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:36 pm)So you’re saying I should go back to ignoring you? It just seems that an incredible amount of energy is being invested in arguing as to what’s better, when they all help. I guess I just don’t see the need for the bickering. It’s brought a lousy air to a fine site.
Tagamet
-6
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:44 pm)EVs do not have a gas tank, gas engine, nor tail pipe. The Volt does. SAE defines hybrid based on the power sources, not what drives the wheel. Volt is a hybrid that can be plugged in. All plugin hybrids start out in EV, including PHV Prius.
Volt is neither a good EV nor a good HV because it does not have 100 miles EV range like the Leaf and it does not get 50 MPG in hybrid mode — only gets in the 30′s.
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:48 pm)It means stop bashing Prius. Comparing a mid-size Prius to compact econoboxes with less standard equipment was an insult. Acknowledge your bias against Prius, drop it and move on.
-5
Aug 14th, 2010 (10:50 pm)“A Plug-In Prius that will give only about 12 miles AER. Calcars rebuilds Prius cars to get 20 or 40 AER. What is Toyota doing here?!?”
Looking for a price sweet spot for a large market. Quite different than an ideological sweet spot.
I wonder if you have ever tried to analyze the optimal battery capacity? The general outline goes like this:
Assuming charging can only be done at home, ideal use is charge every day and use entire charge. Charge left unused is expensive battery wasted; travel not on EV is dead battery weight carried around. Because batteries are so expensive, if the ideal cannot be practiced, then dead weight tends to be a lesser evil than unused capacity.
I also guess that Toyota is expecting/hoping that EV charging will sprout up rather quickly, particularly at work-places where EV front-runners tend to be employed. In that case the Volt capacity becomes that much more redundant and expensive. Toyota also has a much superior CS mpg to rely on.
I do not speak for any one individual’s car buying preference, but as a policy I think it is entirely rational to deploy expensive battery capacity in amounts expected to gain full utilization in daily use across the fleet. Although I’ll be the first to admit it is not ‘sexy’, and I think it suffers from people jumping to a conclusion that it is too small to matter.
I have been a PHV advocate for years, but I have to admit my personal choices have changed. Now I want a HV and a runabout EV. PHV is a compromise HV, and a compromise EV. As a two car family I think I’ll get more value having one uncompromised HV, and one uncompromised EV. Since I already have a Prius this is a simple choice for me; but even if I was replacing two cars in the near future I would conclude the same.
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:00 pm)LOL you are so full of it. I helped my daughter buy a Prius and on 7/18/2008 she was broadsided by two vehicles – the Prius saving her life. I’ve posted the whole story here at least twice.
You’re welcome to your Prius bias, but there is no need to tear down ANY other technology that helps move us toward oil independence. How can you genuinely want oil independence and then constantly argue against a tech that will help do just that. Your posts do not support your contention that you want to move away from oil, unless you don’t think that the Volt will save gas.
AGAIN I repeat: The Prius AND the LEAF AND the Volt will all help us move forward.
Tagamet
-7
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:03 pm)Oops! I left out the word “interaction” in that quote, meaning no power to the brushless MG1 and no pumping of pistons.
The point is differences like that are only academnic. It ultimately always come down to the amount of electricity & gasoline consumed.
-7
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:08 pm)What about not being given a choice?
The one-size-fits-all approach was quite frustrating long before we found out how expensive Volt would actually be. Only a 16 kWh battery-pack and nothing competitive without a plug makes you wonder how oil independence will actually be achieved.
-5
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:11 pm)“I bet the Volt would leave the Prius in the dust every time.” If you are racing against me, I can assure you the victory 100% of the time. If for no other reason than I could care less which is faster, and do not race.
The technical part of me wants to remind you that the Volt is close to 30% heavier than the PHV Prius, so whatever torque and power the PHV Prius has, the Volt will from the get go have to have 30% more just to even things up, all else being equal. May I also recommend that if you buy the Volt you keep racing to a minimum. Prolonged high rate discharge of your battery if overdone is a recipe for short battery life and shorted motors.
-7
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:11 pm)I posted factual information about the Volt. Screenshots came from the Volt showing CS MPG. My posts got rated down.
I asked valid questions about the price and how to justify it. Nobody replied with an answer. I guess people must be programed to rate negative. I want constructive discussion and it needs to be both directions. Rating posts with negative is not constructive! When someone bashes the Prius, I replied with a detail (and deserving) explanation.
My questions and factual information about the Volt deserve the same constructive replies.
+6
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:14 pm)AGAIN I repeat: The Prius AND the LEAF AND the Volt will all help us move forward.
Tagamet
+6
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:15 pm)AGAIN I repeat: The Prius AND the LEAF AND the Volt will all help us move forward.
Tagamet
-4
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:16 pm)I can back up my numbers with engineering documents.
-7
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:19 pm)Repeating the same thing is not constructive. I only ask that we discuss about Prius, Leaf and Volt with factual information. May the best car(s) sell the most and reduce the most fuel consumption and pollution.
-2
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:20 pm)Fair enough. But most people will not buy all three, so discussion of pro and con for each has merit.
+7
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:33 pm)Exactly! I thought I made it clear to the Prius ADVOCATES (I can’t scream that LOUD ENOUGH) that since I own a Prius TOO, I could speak from authority. Please read the title heading for this blog. It says ‘GM-Volt’. It doesn’t say ‘Prius’ anywhere. This is not a place to market the Prius nor is it a place to grind the Volt into the ground to your benefit (like saying the Volt is not a true EV- which is laughingly stupid). The last several days have been a grind of in-your-face Prius CRAP. I do not regret my Prius purchase- but, boy, some of you are pushing me in that direction. It was a GREAT leap forward, but it is yesterday’s news. And Toyota has put it IN THE PRESS that they are fully behind their status quo (which, in my opinion, minor upgrades). Time to make the GM and NISSAN jump- a powertrain that requires no gas. And for the last time, the Prius is NOT THAT VEHICLE!!!!!
-5
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:56 pm)“Your posts do not support your contention that you want to move away from oil, unless you don’t think that the Volt will save gas.”
Your comment is not directed at me, but I want to reply. First off, the Volt will save gasoline (compared to a Corolla, e.g.) in many cases but not all, because the CS mpg is likely to be inferior. Second, I do not support subsidy support of this car by governments in debt or as in the case of CA, on the brink of BK; and third, Prius as a fleet will decrease oil use by orders of magnitude more than the Volt, simply by virtue of its price compared to the Volt. If you compare replacing two 25 mpg cars with Prius, or one 25 mpg car with a Volt, more oil is saved by the Prius route, and more money is left over.
As a national public policy question whether to support Volt, it is a bad idea.
-5
Aug 15th, 2010 (12:22 am)Remember: too little, too slowly
+4
Aug 15th, 2010 (5:38 am)Well we already heard the GM decided against actually pursuing this certification on the current VOLT because of not wanting to hold up the release of the car. VOLT II is planned to meet requirements.
But again, who cares? If it is about HOV lane use, other than LA & SF it does not matter. And personally I disagree with single occupant cars using the lane as the idea is to have people car pool to relieve congestion which also helps pollution. If you have a sudden influx of people buying CARB car Leaf, VOLT II, Aptera (LOL), etc. and not car pooling, the lane will plug up and and the point/idea will be defeated. Plus I don’t buy into the emission free story. You are transferring SOME emissions from tailpipe to coal smoke stack. HOV means High Occupancy Vehicle. (Reminds me of some movie I say years ago… Officer pulls over a guy driving and says sir you were driving in the High OV lane by yourself… And the guy responds — “But officer I am High so its legal right!)
Any way it was funny… Back to point… You are probably one of the guys that did not understand what S means in MSRP either.
For the record I am not hung up on environmental aspect of cars. I want to reduce foreign oil and giving money to the bad guys.
+11
Aug 15th, 2010 (6:14 am)The Prius PHEV is a non starter. Toyota today reminds me of GM of yesteryear. Big, bloated and no longer relevant. Their own statements suggest that IF they bring this car to market, it will be a cobbled together and poorly engineered. But they think people will buy because of the name.
The Leaf is so damn restrictive. You don’t know if you will get 47 miles that day or 120 miles that day. That is no way to go through life. I would hate to be driving an 85 mile trip starting out on full and 30 miles into the trip, the gauge starts dropping and saying I only have 50 miles of charge left. Do I trust the gauge, turn around and go home? Do I baby the car and hope I can squeak out more miles? Maybe I will make it! Maybe I will only have to walk 2 miles… Hmmmm… What if my sick child is with me or my elderly mother… So many what ifs with the LEAF… Now does this restrictive technology have a place? YES, for people that only need it to run 20-30 miles here and there. But then I submit that the Leaf is the over priced technology for this category. Mitsubishi is coming out with their MiEV and are claiming they will have the cost down to $22K… Even if it is $25K is still is way cheaper than the Leaf. Leaf loses again in this technology category.
The VOLT is a well thought out and engineered vehicle, built from the ground up. The 40 mile EV range covers 75% of how people drive without all the anxiety. The thought behind power/battery management will ensure that 40EV will occur most of the time. But on the occasion of my 85 mile trip (with my sick child & elderly mother), If after 15 miles, my battery meter says I only have another 15 miles left of charge, I can rest easy because I know the CS mode will kick in and I will safely make it to my destination. In the near future, there is no engineering marvel like this close to being released. Thus GM can justify making more money on this. Will I pay for this technology today… NO, I will wait for VOLT 4.0 when costs are reduced and performance is even better.
There you have the 3 technologies explained and why Prius and Leaf will fall by the wayside.
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Aug 15th, 2010 (7:20 am)Nothing else to say, just turn this one green with plusses.
-3
Aug 15th, 2010 (7:33 am)What kind of nonsense is that?
-4
Aug 15th, 2010 (7:42 am)If the MiEV is 22 – 25k before tax credits, then I agree it is a car I will consider. My problem is that I trust Mitsu reliability about as much as I trust Nissan, which is to say not much.
Jimza, I’m sorry but your post just sounds like the GM commercial. If my kid is that sick I’ll call 911. Not so sick ? I’ll drive the 10 miles to the ER. EV depleted ? I’ll take the HV.
Will ‘range anxiety’ hold back the EV ? For some, sure. For me, not at all. For people who use the car in a range < 80% of spec ? I doubt it, after ignorance and FUD is relieved. Honestly, how hard it is to comprehend that if a driver is going to push an EV to its range limit then the car must be driven conservatively ?
+3
Aug 15th, 2010 (7:48 am)Good Morning,
True, but some folks would like all three…
Anyway just because we favor a particular, that is no reason to bash the other!
Leave that to the politicians (and I wish they did not do it)
Cheers
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (7:52 am)#204 EricLG said:
Honestly, how hard it is to comprehend that if a driver is going to push an EV to its range limit then the car must be driven conservatively?
Easy to say, until it’s 22 degrees F (-6 C) outside and you haven’t driven the EV for a couple of days.
-2
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:01 am)What is that, five or 10 years, and up to 5,000 more gallons of petrol bought that you yourself say is what you care most about limiting ?
In the same time I’ll buy half that amount for the same miles driven. And spend half as much as you.
Explain to me again how you are making a rational choice, I must be missing something.
-2
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:05 am)Or my neighbor snuck into my garage in the middle of the night and STOLE MY BATTERY!
To answer your question — I’ll preheat the car, and as usual wear warm clothes. Maybe put on another layer if I want to sweat while driving
-1
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:11 am)Cheers!
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (8:51 am)last comment!!
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Aug 15th, 2010 (10:36 am)The reason to purchase Volt is that it’s newer technology and offers more power?
Better study mainstream success of the past. You’ll easy draw interest from the niche crowd, but appealing to the typical family (where the bulk of sales have come from) is going to take a whole lot more than that.
+2
Aug 15th, 2010 (1:48 pm)That’s your current weighted average rate including fixed fees…what is your incremental cost of buying an additional kWh? I’m sure it is less than 15.6 cents. It’s your incremental cost that matters.
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:05 am)It is safe to assume the Volt can be towed like a standard front wheel drive car…i.e. front wheels up off the ground using a tow dolly. The rear wheels should free-wheel just like any other front drive car. Flat-bed trucks are used mainly for AWD vehicles.
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:27 am)Dude, I ride my bike to work most of the time in the summer. I will use less gas than most of the ECO-Greenwashers that will drive a LEAF. That said, the question I was responding to was evaluate the 3 technologies. Prius, Leaf & VOLT. Like I said the VOLT is the technology that makes the most sense. If I had to buy a car tomorrow and all three were available in Wisconsin, I would buy the VOLT. 1 car for using all the time. I would not need to bum my neighbors, friends or co-workers car because I was range limited.
As I also stated in a previous post, the Leaf technology will fit probably 5% of the populations driving needs. Cool, but then why not buy the Mitsubishi MiEV instead and save about $8K. It will meet your needs as well.
Prius? It will not save more gas than a VOLT. Is it a better option than a Leaf? Not range limited is good, but gas guzzler compared to VOLT overall.
Now if you want to get into a short term price /cost discussion. None of these makes sense based on current gas prices. The goal from my perspective is to eliminate paying money to foreign oil bad guys. VOLT is a car for the mass consumer that will help achieve the goal. The others will only frustrate consumers with range limitation, or in the case of the Prius, be like spitting in the wind.
Aug 16th, 2010 (8:25 am)“50 mpg equivalent” could mean a lot of things, but the comment does open things up to speculate:
It could mean that the Volt has a 7 gallon tank…
340 miles /50 mpg=6.8 gallons
or,
GM could be hedging on their range and be using a 9 gallon tank…which would provide a range of 450 miles (40 electric, 410 gas).
50 mpg/9 gallons = 450 miles
so,
410 miles (gas)/9 gallons = 45.6 mpg
Of course, my engineering calculations are still saying 37 mpg in CS mode.
Aug 16th, 2010 (1:41 pm)Well, I went to the Autonation website to look to see if they had a dealer somewhere near me that would sell me a Volt at MSRP. They have ONE dealer in CA way down in Valencia, and none near me in Silicon Valley. I’m not surprised. Many of the dealers around here really love their markups and they can get very high ones (I would not at all be surprised if the 20k markup dealer is in this neighborhood). Frankly, I have had so many bad experiences with dealers around here (although I’ll grant you not GM dealers specifically, but they’re mostly owned by the same conglomerates here) that they’re keeping me away from looking for a Volt right now.
I’m more of a vote-with-my checkbook person, not really a dedicated early adopter. If nobody were buying Volts I’d be out buying one to cast my vote, but I feel no pressing need at the moment to claw my way ahead of anyone else trying to buy one. When the circus dies down, I’ll still be there willing to vote with my checkbook.
I think us ‘early-ish’ adopters are crucial anyway to bridge the gap between the true early and mainstream adopters, too. We just don’t get all the love, though.
Aug 16th, 2010 (3:30 pm)I can’t think of anything that will backfire worse than a few thousand more on markup above
MSRP.
Q. Where did you buy your Volt?
A. At _________ Chevrolet.
Q. How much did you pay for it?
A. $___,000 more than MSRP.
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:10 pm)Yep, pre-heat the car with some more of the coal fired energy!
Aug 16th, 2010 (7:18 pm)Yep, you will take another gas burning car if needed. You don’t need a second car with the VOLT. Reduce your carbon footprint! Think of the pollution that went into that second car to build. VOLT is one car that does it all.
Call 911 for a child that is sick with strep throat? Meanwhile the ambulance cannot respond to a heart attack victim because you needed it for your child. So someone else dies for you?
WOW. Or you take your kid to the E/R and clog that up and drive health care cost up? Damn you Leaf guys kill me!! Literally! 
Get the VOLT; Save the planet and save kids and save grandma!
Aug 17th, 2010 (2:28 pm)Most popular family cars are mid-size or compact size both with 5 seat capability. I am glad a 4 seater with 10.6 cubic feet trunk would work out for your family.