An interesting attribute of the Chevy Volt is the fact that gas in its tank may rarely if ever get used. GM has recommended the tank be kept about half full though some people who drive less than 40 miles per day may very rarely if ever experience the generator going on.
Gas doesn’t last forever and has a tendency to go stale. One way GM has dealt with this is to require the use of premium gasoline, which takes longer to go stale than regular gas.
Another method is keeping the tank water tight. The presence of water in gas accelerates the aging process.
Autoblog may have uncovered a third mechanism GM is planning for the Volt.
Application 20100186702 was filed to the US Patent Office on January 29,2009 by GM.
It is a for a system that delivers fuel additive on-board a plugin hybrid having both an electric and hybrid mode of operation. The system has a reservoir to hold the additive, a pump and conduit to deliver it to the fuel tank, and a controller.
“The systems and method minimize spoiled fuel and fuel deposits, and therefore minimize damaged fuel system equipment for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles,” the author writes.
The controller uses sensors to detect several properties of the fuel; “elapsed time interval since previous fuel additive addition to the fuel tank , temperature, fuel quality, level of the fuel tank , and/or level of the reservoir.” The system would then determine if additive to prevent spoiling needes to be pumped into the tank.
The system would also detect if no fuel had been uses for a period of 11 month inwhich case a dashboard display would light up, telling the driver the fuel needed to be replaced, as the limetime of fuel is considered to be one year.
The patent application also proposes the system could be used to work with diesel, hydrogen, bio-diesel, and ethanol, pointing to GM future ideas for Voltec propulsion.
The additive reommended for use in the application is STA-BIL.RTM., commercially available from Gold Eagle Company of Chicago, Ill.
Now it looks like we know what Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz meant when he once said “there will be a few that will have their gas go bad, we have ways to address that as well.”
It is unknown if this system will be employed in the first generation Volt, though since the patent is not yet granted, probably not.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, August 10th, 2010 at 6:17 am and is filed under Fuel. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:27 am)It is great that GM has thought this out so well as for me I drive 100 miles a day. It seams this would make premium redundant though. also half a tank is odd as the boat company’s say to fill it up to prevent air in the tank or empty .
Tom
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:33 am)I’m glad GM’s giving the fuel issue serious thought. I drive 6 miles a day and would seldom use the CS mode. Even with the additive, I would suspect that a yearly tank replenishment would be recommended.
-9
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:33 am)Patents waste so much time and effort. Just get the Volt EREVs on the road, and make money selling them, before everybody figures out how to make them.
+7
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:37 am)11 months before the warning light comes on is great. If I can go 11 months AER and be forced to swap out my fuel I’m fine with that. If someone decides that an EREV is right for them, they are buying the REV part and realize that ICE engines need to be maintained. I thought I remembered from one of the past articles that at 3-6 months the ICE would come on for a little while to keep the engine used and I thought that was a reasonable time frame but filling up once a year would be awesome. Personally I take too many 100+ mile trips to think I could go a year without refueling but I’m sure there are people out there that want the security of an EREV even though they never will leave their town and this is good for them.
+10
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:40 am)Even if not granted, they still have invention protection for its use while the patent award is pending.
Nice idea, but it’d be much less complicated simply to run the engine for a couple of minutes every once in a while to consume fuel a tiny bit at a time. Oh, wait. GM’s already said that the Volt would do that.
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:41 am)I have used STA-BIL for a long time in the boat and the mowers. It really does work.
I will probably use about a gallon of gas per week, so this should not be much of a problem for me.
But I can see why GM is giving it consideration. This could be a real service nightmare for those that do not drive a lot.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:52 am)I’d guess that this is one of the tools in their tool chest. I suspect that they might have decided it is not necessary, but who knows. Another tool is to briefly activate the ICE. That would be mainly to stir up the oil and lubricate the internals of the engine. At the least it would be a chance to measure and validate the “health” of the fuel. All of this presupposes that lots of dots can be connected via the computer and software. Most modern fuel systems return excess fuel to the tank via recirculation, not so? That should stir the fuel and that should somewhat mitigate degradation.
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:56 am)Thanks for addressing my question from yesterday so quickly!
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:59 am)The “replace fuel” warning makes me wonder if GM thought about that as well. I wonder if there is a drain or some way to easily get rid of stale fuel?
+7
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:03 am)I don’t believe this patent indicates anything. I think it is a “Just in case” patent. GM would patent this just so they wouldn’t have to pay royalties to someone else who might submit a similar patent in case they decide to do this in the future.
The cost to implement would outweigh any minimal benefit.
+6
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:03 am)Here’s an interesting note from the patent application:
“wherein O represents a volume of output of the fuel additive 20 from the pump 26, V represents a volume of fuel 16 in the fuel tank 14 of the plug-in hybrid electric vehicle 12, and C represents a ratio of volume of fuel additive 20: volume of fuel 16 in the fuel tank 14 of the plug-in hybrid electric vehicle 12. For example, commercially available fuel additives 20 typically specify a dilution ratio of fuel additive 20 to fuel 16 of about one ounce of fuel additive 20: about three gallons of fuel 16. It is to be appreciated that this dilution ratio, 1 oz/3 gal, corresponds to C in formula (I). As one example, for the fuel tank 14 fueled from empty with six gallons of fuel 16, i.e., V=6 gal, the metered amount, O, of the fuel additive 20 provided to the fuel tank 14 by the pump 26, as determined by formula (I), is about two ounces of fuel additive 20. ”
So could the Volt’s fuel tank hold 6 gallons?
Note that the capacity of the injection pump is up to 2.5 oz, so that could mean 7.5 gallons.
Interesting content.
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:07 am)OT:
From “ex GM emloyee’s” post a couple of days ago:
“1). Under normal conditins, you are likely to get 35-40 miles and about 30 EV range after 2-3 years.”
________________
Have no idea if this guy’s got any inside info or not, but this raises an interesting question — does GM ever state that they will always make 8 kwh’s of capacity available?
i.e. if only using 8 of 16 kwh’s extends battery life then wouldn’t only using 6 of 16 kwh’s extend it even further? (at the expense of AER, of course).
Lyle,
Can you ask your GM contacts if 8 kwh’s is always available or is there programming in the Volt that could scale back the kwh’s available if the BMS thinks it necessary to reach the 8/100 warranty limits?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:09 am)I think it is a stretch to imply that this patent is a peak “to GM future ideas for Voltec propulsion”. The patent is simply written broadly to cover as many design variations as possible. That’s standard practice for patent writing.
Still, I think it would be much more important to run the engine occasionally than to treat the fuel for prolonged storage. There are many benefits to running the engine periodically, that are not realized by simply putting an additive into the fuel tank.
+11
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:11 am)This is an example of why GM is ramping up slowly. 10,000 vehicles first year, and 45,000 second. They need to get these on the road with real drivers who will use regular gas even though they recommend premium, there will be people that let the gas go stale, there will be people that will have water get in the gas either by their own screw ups or a bad gas station, etc.
This way they can monitor and review what happens. Maybe they have it covered with technology, maybe not, but GM is just being prudent. Us VOLT believers love (and some even hope) the fact that the Leaf could run out of juice and “LEAVE” the driver stranded. However, if there becomes an issue with stale gas gumming up the generator in the VOLT, it would not be pretty either.
Also I hope this helps explain why the VOLT cost is higher. There is a lot of technology built into this machine. This is not just a lawn mower engine strapped to a few Ray-O-Vac rechargeable batteries! there was actually a lot of thought, and engineering put into the VOLT.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:21 am)You may very well be right, Roy. And this strikes me as an area of the fuel system design that GM could want to make based on the actual operational experiences of thousands of owners —perhaps the owners of the first 10,000 2011 Volts. IOW, GM may want to obtain data on stale fuel problems from a much larger number of vehicles than the total number of mules and pre-production cars thus far tested, particularly data from actual owner experience with a large number of vehicles, before finalizing a decision for, say, the production run of 2012 Volts. If so, the approach makes sense to me.
/I note you’re saying something very similar, Jimza Skeptic
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:22 am)Or maybe another pump, to pump it out. Siphoning can be troublesome at times.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:22 am)Good catch. Between the information you dug up and some stuff I saw regarding the Ampera I really think that the gas tank is going to be 6 gallons (5 imperial gallons) and the CS mileage is going to be in the 50 mpg ballpark as both Posawatz and Weber have indicated.
The MSRP pissed me off, but if they get the CS mileage close to 50 mpg either in town, or, (less likely), at a mixture of highway speeds, that would be impressive.
With my driving pattern and driving only 12,500 miles per year, I would be using 2 gallons a month so Stabil won’t be needed but prior planning prevents p*** poor performance. Should I be ready to boast about getting 500 mpg?
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:46 am)I’m thinking of a plug, similar to the plug in the oil pan today. I’m thinking this would be simple to do.
+32
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:03 am)Hey guys 6 gallons or 9….50 mpg or 35 mpg cs mileage I guess I will find out. Just placed my order with my dealer for March delivery. I’m so excited I could squeal like a girl.
Take Care,
TED
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:04 am)Well, I have been following this car since January 2007 and I personally do not think we have to worry about stale gas. They have programmed the four cylinder to come alive in all kinds of scenarios so i think that even if your commute is less than 40 miles per day, you will still burn gas.
The weather may be too hot or too cold. The hills may be too steep or you may have to use the passing lane frequently, etc., ad infinitum.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:04 am)My guess with boats is that they are vented to atmosphere and air has H20 in it. This means that heating/cooling due to ambient temperature changes means transference in and out, therefore ADDING H20 over time. A full tank means very little chance for additional H20. The Volt should have its tank pressurized and the H20 content would be fixed (unless they added a moisture seperator, in which case there would be even less to worry about.) The main worry with the Volt is that you won’t use up the fuel, hence leave as little fuel as possible and expect that the pressurized tank does the job to keep most H20 out.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:09 am)Do you think that would work w/the bladder in the tank? The shape of the tank may also not allow all the gas pool in one spot. But what do i know, i’m an EE. A plug would be the simplest solution.
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:16 am)Congratulations, Ted! Did you get the dealer to sell it at MSRP? It sounds like most dealers are selling at MSRP but the ones that aren’t are getting all the attention.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:18 am)And I’m in IT, so I’m just as clueless. I didn’t realize there was a bladder in the gas tank.
How pathetic is that?!
+9
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:18 am)The obvious way to get rid of the fuel would be to avoid plugging the car in and force the fuel to be used. Draining it would be a complete waste of time and more trouble than taking a drive.
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:20 am)It won’t have a plug. There will most likely be a simple procedure to disconnect one of the fuel lines at the engine and turn on the fuel pump. I’ve done it many times on fuel injected cars to empty the tank.
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:27 am)it would be nice to have a way to force the car to run on ICE so you could burn down your tank periodically and still have EV to get home.
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:33 am)SEA FOAM !!!!! go to store get a bottle add to tank ! problem solved !
Your buying a $40,000 dollar car , learn how to up keep your investment running.
If you can’t add fuel saver for $9 then come to my shop and I will change out your injectors for $800 dollars your choice.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:35 am)Your talking about a prius here, the volt engine will not come on at these times unless the battery is dead. With the exception of cold weather the engine comes on to provide heat for the battery for a few minutes then turns off.
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:35 am)I see no way that GM will provide a drain for the fuel. I can see the news media now… Man/woman drains Volt fuel tank per GM requirement. An inadvertent spark causes explosion destroying Volt and
massive burns on individual.
The law suits would financially crush GM.
Lastly, what do you do with the stale fuel? I suppose it could be done at the dealership?
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:36 am)This is why lots of patents are not prosecuted with any haste, and often delayed where possible (particularly in the US). Whilst the patent application is considered “patent pending”, other manufactures will probably be more hesitant to try to use or work around it as the patent claims are open to amendments (provided the amendment can be shown to exist in the body of the patent itself).
Having this patent revealed after its 18 month non-disclosure period tells me time wise it could be in use in the Volt v1.0. I’m sure the idea for the additive was in the works for some time prior to the actual application (merely being kept a trade secret). Due to the extra costs verse benefits, actual implementation may be another story.
-8
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:41 am)Good Morning,
Pleas check out todays artical in “ENERGY CAPITAL”
eac-eletter@angelnexus.com
Have a Great Day,
Tom
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:44 am)Hence the requirement for premium fuel.. GM is hoping premium will tend to be a higher quality gasoline (plus higher mpg due to higher compression) but that is not necessarily true.. it could be as contaminated and poor quality as the worst cheap Valero junk you could find anywhere. Running the engine heats up the oil to drive off condensed moisture, but the engine is fully sealed.. if you have not burned any gas for a couple of years it should remain moisture and acids free. You do have to circulate the oil to relube all the parts and probably exercise the fuel injectors also. I’m positive they know what they are doing.
Best long term solution for the range extender is to use LPG, that stuff will stay good forever and you can find BBQ gas anywhere.
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:45 am)Does the volt have an easy way for you to drain the gas tank if it goes stale?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:46 am)Something interesting I saw, a guy selling a reservation for a Volt out of a dealer in NY on ebay, wonder what it’ll sell for. I have no connection to this sale just thought I’d show you guys, hey maybe someone here really wants to get one soon.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2011-Chevy-Volt-6-line-includes-500-deposit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ270617831942QQptZLHQ5fDefaultDomainQ5f100#ht_1689wt_1165
Also, I thought it’d be fun to guess when the 1 millionth Volt will be sold. My guess, August 15th 2017.
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:48 am)Yeah, we need a gearhead to chime in here.
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:57 am)Sounds like a lot of engineering for a small gain. The KISS principle should apply here.
Just do like stationary generators. Run the thing once a week to keep the engine well lubricated and the gas/fuel will take care of itself.
I never use fuel stabilizers because ya gotta mow grass (or in my case, weeds) 12 months a year in Texas. The gas never gets stale.
Mowed weeds look like grass.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:59 am)Rotate the tires and the fuel at the same time.. I bet the technician just puts it in his car
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:12 am)Ted in Fort Myers – Just placed my order with my dealer for March delivery. I’m so excited.
Congratulations Ted. When I got my confirmation code at work, my co workers said they had never seen me that excited before. Now we need the web site to track order and build progress. The best answer I have been able to get is November. Maybe Lyle can get a heads-up on when it will be available.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:12 am)there is no tank bladder like the previous generation Prius.. the Volt’s gas tank is pressurized to keep moisture out. Probably one of CARB’s strict requirements is why GM is doing this, a more permanent solution to keep the gas from evaporating and polluting.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:23 am)Many Japanese designed vehicles have a drain plug in the bottom of the tank. They also have a fuel pump access panel in the trunk. Two simple ideas that are much appreciated if you’ve ever had to replace a fuel pump.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:25 am)I just had my dealer tell me to call in to set my options and put in my order, but said he is still not sure on the pricing. I pretty much told them I’m not locking myself into the options for the car, only to find out they are going to sell over MSRP, etc. I’m waiting back for a response from them. No way I am buying a car without knowing how much it is.
As for the topic at hand, I too doubt this will be in the first gen Volt, and will probably only make it into gen2 if they find, from the data of gen1 drivers, that is necessary.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:26 am)All that technology for just $350 per month.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:32 am)Nice catch. It’s so fun to read the tea leaves!
Six gallons is probably the single best guess. We know that the tank will be sized to give a range of 300 miles. The best indication of the MPG in CS Mode has come from Bob Lutz when he discussed how much gas you’d use on a 60 mile commute and inadvertently suggested an MPG between 40 and 50 MPG. (Lyle had a post about this in October 09). So the tank might be any size — 6.25 or whatever — but six is not a bad guess.
Or how about going the Glenn Beck route: The Volt is Obama’s car. He’s the devil. So the fuel tank will of course be …. drum roll …. 6.66! (Not a bad guess either since Lutz said the MPG would be between 40 and 50 MPG).
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:32 am)If the dealer claims to ‘not know’ the price, he does not know what he is doing. Find another dealer. The prices have been on GM GlobalConnect for some time now.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:41 am)To clarify, they haven’t given what the BASE price is yet. They haven’t given any indication whether they are selling at MSRP or above it yet. Kind of annoying. I just want to know so I can either order or get my deposit back and move on.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:47 am)My guess is they will sell 1 million in late 2016 if you count the Opel Ampera in that number. These things should go nuts in Europe with 6 to 8 dollar gas. And don’t forget China, I think you could ad 50 to 200 thousand in that country by then.
+4
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:49 am)Don’t plug it in overnight, drive to work in Mountain Mode, return home in Normal Mode.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:02 am)The point is to burn the fuel in the engine. That’s why the indicator light will come on *before* the fuel is too stale. If you’ve been driving around for 2 years ignoring the “stale fuel” light, then you will probably have a repair bill (just like what happens when you ignore other vehicle trouble symptoms).
+8
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:03 am)I think the stale fuel problem is overblown.
First of all we don’t know all the details on how the ICE will operate. I’m willing to bet that unless you live in an extremely moderate climate, the ICE will be coming on to support battery conditioning or air conditioning. The notion of driving gas free for 40 miles every day for up to a year is probably more marketing hype than reality.
Second, fuel doesn’t go stale in a closed system. Fuel systems today are extremely tight. You will get a check engine light if the gas cap is not sealed properly. In a sealed system the volatiles can not evaporate therefore the composition of the fuel cannot change. I think it would be highly unlikely that a month or two or even a year would have any measurable effect on the fuel.
+7
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:08 am)I’m not going to be in line when the iCar first comes out, but I do hope to get one next year. Okay, it’s not called iCar, but the excitement and eagerness to get one shown here does remind me of Apple products. The Volt even has people who trash it all the time, as a new iAnything does. It is great to see that much enthusiasm for an American built car.
+5
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:16 am)Sir, you have no idea what you are talking about! The patents that GM is seeking on its technology have nothing to do with the production timetable on the Volt.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:16 am)Profound observation. The professional “car guys” (including those at GM) would be well advised to pay attention. From what I’ve seen and heard they haven’t so far.
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:22 am)Good point. Maybe as a dealer servicing option as a last resort a plug or outlet would work. For folks at home, how would they handle old gas safely? Take it to the used gas depot? How do you explain that one to the EPA? Hey, guys we’re going to recommend owners toss their stale gas over the back wall once a year. Can we have the highest ratings possible for our electric car please?
CBK,
Why isn’t that point obvious? I just don’t get why that doesn’t completely obliterate any incipient thoughts of gas tank plugs? I’m at a complete loss on where the plug line of thinking gains a toehold.
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:25 am)You mean drivers would be expected to think from time to time instead of point and go; Hmmm?
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:28 am)I’m going to guess that this isn’t on the Volt. I can see the idea getting a patent even if it’s not immediately incorporated into a production vehicle.
How would Hydrogen fuel go stale? Hmm.
I’d rather burn the fuel just before it goes bad than “replace” it. How do you dispose of the stale fuel? You don’t want to create a hazardous waste disposal issue.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:29 am)I would not buy something called “iCar”. Sounds too Korean.
+4
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:31 am)Corvette Guy – it’s only a matter of time before some creative car nut gets their hands on a Volt and dresses it up for the street – Ferrari red paint, black rims, body colored front grille, tinted glass, etc. And then some tuner geek drops in a killer drive motor turning the car into an invincible stoplight dragster – the car that speaks softly yet carries a big stick…
If something like this was to be seen cruising California streets collecting pink slips, the rush to Chevy dealerships could be unstoppable. Why don’t you convince your owner to set one of your Volts up like this, and let some car mag do a story on it? How the Volt is a game changing car in more ways than anyone could have ever imagined. The streets will never be the same….
The publicity you’d get would be priceless.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:34 am)IMHO the stale gas issue is a non issue with the Volt. With the automatic activation of the ICE and the occasional 50-150 trip you should not be concerned. People who really think they will not go into cs mode should probably consider buying a BEV instead. I know, go ahead and – me for using the BEV word.
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:35 am)Can’t find it right now, but, I remember reading that the AER would be the same after 10 years. They will do the exact opposite of what you are saying by extending the DOD (Depth of Discharge).
In other words, as the battery ages they will use more of the available capacity to maintain the same AER experience.
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:41 am)Yeah, setup some gas economy rallies with Priuses and other mere hybrids.. lets see who uses less gas and collect a bunch of pink slips for the used car lot at your dealership.. and you get to meet and trash Johnboy, there really is no downside to this.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:44 am)If GM is actually worried about stale gas (and it seems they are). the ICE might be running less than we think. This supports the idea of a 6 gallon. The smaller the Tank, the less chance the gas goes stale.
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:44 am)I thought they had a very well sealed tank to take care of this problem? In a well sealed system it’d take gas a very long time to go bad.
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:45 am)Here’s how it’s going to work: The light comes on, you go to the dealership. End of story.
Could it be that, in spite of GM’s best efforts (and our expectations) the person with a small portion of cs-mode driving weekly will come out best in this area?
As to whether or not the additive dispenser is in Gen I or not: You now know the identity of the additive, and it’s generally available. If the dispenser didn’t make it in, go to the hardware store and put it in yourselves.
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:45 am)Is it just me, or does this patent seem a bit obvious?
Problem: infrequently used gas in tank of EREV may go stale.
Solution: automatically add fuel stabilant from onboard reservoir using a pump and electronic controller.
How hard is this to engineer? Is it really patent worthy? I hate seeing the patent system used to call dibs on obvious solutions to simple problems. I kind of hope it doesn’t get granted.
However, if that’s the current state of the game in industrial technology then kudos to GM for getting there first. They may have EREV technology sewn up in patents by now.
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:51 am)Most really good ideas sound simple on their face; but end up being much more involved in practice. How much additive do you add to how much gas? After how much time? When the gas is half old and half new? At different times of the year?
A patent usually states it’s premise in the simplest possible terms; you can make your application more complex later and retain your rights, but if someone else comes up with a simplified version, your patent is worthless.
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:53 am)Then again, the fellow in charge of the Iphone 4 just quit, so maybe not.
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:56 am)I concur!!!!
The ICE should run “occasionally” enough to keep the fuel fresh.
The patent app appears to be a waste of time.
If stabilizer is needed it would be very easy for anyone to add it by hand.
As noted above….
If someone owns this car where the issue of stale gas arises then that someone would probably be better off in a BEV or a all ICE vehicle.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:57 am)If for some reason the fuel did go stale, a drain plug is unnecessary.
All fuel injected cars have a connector on the fuel rails. All you have to do is hook up a hose and activate the fuel pump.
People that work on classic cars have known this for decades.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:58 am)Just from personal experience, I prefer SeaFoam to Sta-Bil for my motorcycle. JMO (and I doubt that it matters)
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:01 am)Thanks! I think both of our cars could be referred to as antiques, but I’ve never drained the tanks (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:03 am)360 days of daily-driving data collected so far shows that the variation of real-world encounters puts 12,000 miles annual at a total consumption of about 42 gallons per year. (Details to follow… spreadsheets, graphs, etc.)
What is the frequency/duration expected for exceeding the 40-mile threshold and heater use?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:06 am)What about a person that just wants to have a single vehicle, but also wants the EV benefits?
Be well,
Tagamet
+5
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:13 am)I think everyone is overlooking an important point. This is the first car in modern history where we have to worry about “gas going stale”. Few people could have imagined such a thing twenty years ago. And here it is – scant months until it hits the showrooms.
Embargo ? Who cares, if you drive a Volt ! Now about that Volt-tec lawnmower…
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:22 am)“Pimp My Volt” ?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:23 am)Ted, me too. In fact John T. said that he was going to call you as soon as he was done with me. BTW, I have not gotten an email confirmation yet, have you? The excitement is hard to contain.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:25 am)Ted….interesting, assuming you’ll be picking one up from Austin? If so March seems late to me as Austin is one of the first to get them. Why do you have to wait so long? Here in Michigan I’ve been told March as part of the second initial wave but didn’t think that included Austin.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:27 am)I don’t think GM is worried about it at all. I think the possibility was raised on this site a couple of years ago, so they worked up a tech solution ‘just in case’. Also known as “overkill”.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:28 am)Unless you have a really HUGE lawn, too late on the lawn mower (g).
http://www.greenoptions.com/products/neuton-ce-6-2-battery-powered-mower
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:30 am)I just got a flash of an idea! I’ll bet that this was dropped from the Volt as they firmed up plans, making cuts and refinements. And I’ll bet this has something to do with Gen1 not being flex fuel and the switch to premium (but I’ll bet that the premium has a lot to do with getting a little more mpg). Wouldn’t it be something if the switch to premium gas bumps the CS mpg up just enough to justify the $41K price?
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:35 am)#73 Tagamet What about a person that just wants to have a single vehicle, but also wants the EV benefits?
If a person is rarely going to want to drive more then 40 miles a day, then they should consider buying a BEV instead if they are confortable with other options when a BEV won’t accomodate. It’s your choice, and there’s no right or wrong answer.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:35 am)Ted’s dealer is in Sterling Heights, MI (my dealer). And yes, there is a bit of a mystery as to why we don’t get a Volt until March – especially after talking as if they might get cars in September. I think a lot of that is because of the additional markets openning, but I’ll bet there is an interesting story or two lurking in the background.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:38 am)To read the entire patent, simply Google: U.S. Patent, 20100186702 …or…
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100186702.pdf (Not a promo.)
(You can also go over to USPTO.gov…Search Patent Apps. and enter the number. You must have a reader to view images.)
Readers here should be aware this is NOT a patent-but a patent application. The reason its published is based on an Inventor’s-Assignee’s option; whereas the app. is published 18 months following its date of filing. My understanding from media reports is USPTO (patent office) is backlogged some 3-4 years. Also take note USPTO does not simply stamp a number and issue patents-the app. must first pass statutory and prior art muster.
I am not wild about methodology that multiplies active component count. Maybe GM could offer us engineers a crack at proposing alternative solutions. (Promo)
+5
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:38 am)Yes it is at MSRP.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:42 am)How about not charging the volt for a few days before it goes stale? That would work.
-9
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:48 am)Average household in the US has 2.9 cars. How is your argument valid?
I would think people looking to buy an EV would already have a gas-only car.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:58 am)GM has sealed fuel system in older vehicles, because it is required for emissions control. My 1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera had a closed system, because the gas vapors from the fuel tank were diverted to the carburator, and the gas cap was sealed. Newer GM vehicles have a pressure sensor in the gas tank that can detect if the cap is open. BTW, I left my Ciera unused for a year and the gasoline was still good for driving.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:03 pm)This raises an important difference between the Leaf and Volt warranties on the battery pack. GM says the warranty means that the pack will deliver 40 AER at the end of the warranty. Nissan doesn’t say the same about the Leaf battery pack. It could be that the warranty only covers losses greater than 80% or even 75% of the range.
It’s also an open question about how the AER for the Volt will vary. It could be GM is using less than 50% of the pack early on or it could be they’re using more than 50% late. Or the percentage of the pack may stay the same and the range initially may be greater. Or something else.
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:03 pm)For starters, I’m not arguing. I asked a simple question. I’ll assume that your last sentence is your opinion.
Thanks,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:11 pm)The EV demographic is looking very much like the demographic for the initial Prius, which means more educated and higher income. So yes, it’s likely there will be more than one car per household.
But that doesn’t mean there won’t be plenty of exceptions to the general rule. The MINI-E lease was very expensive, so the vast majority of households had more than one car, but a few lessees used it as their only car.
Given this, his argument is perfectly valid. If you look at what he wrote, he referred to people who may or may not fit the “average” demographic. I’d add that there will be many more people who may not need the range extender but who don’t want to “take the chance” or worry about the range. Just because a BEV with a 100 mile range would work for people doesn’t mean those people will be prepared to to buy one — perceptions count for more than reality and a car is a large purchase.
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:12 pm)The MyVolt.com site is no longer automatically redirecting to chevrolet.com. I’m guessing that it will be active in a few days, though maybe not tracking orders right away.
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:16 pm)Well said. Thanks. (but I wasn’t arguing – lol, yes, I do know the “other” use of the term). You’ve done a good job answering the question.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:20 pm)The mistake you’re making is construing the statement that 80% of daily driving is less than 40 miles into the statement that 80% of driving is 40 miles. When you look at the scattergram, at least 50% of all daily driving is less than 20 miles. So losing a little range won’t matter in these cases. Heating needs and so on are only likely to effect a small number of drivers who drive more than 35 but less than 40 miles.
You also have to assume that a reasonable number of people will be able to plug in at work or engage in other “opportunity charging”. Unlike a Leaf which really needs a 240 volt plug, the Volt’s battery pack is only using the middle 50% of the cells, so opportunity charging is very viable.
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:21 pm)I thought you were cleverly using the Socratic method.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:24 pm)Yeah. +1. Sometimes we lose sight of the bigger picture.
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:29 pm)Clever, MOI??? LOL. (kinda like this post)(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:35 pm)DonC.
Good points in your whole discussion.
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:37 pm)In logic, an argument is a set of one or more meaningful declarative sentences. I agree with your argument (statement) that the first time car buyers (or without existing car or have range anxiety) should look for the Volt if they want to use electricity for more of the miles. My point was that there aren’t many.
What car do you drive now?
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Have not gotten the email confirmation yet. Just checked but soon real soon.
Take Care,
TED
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:48 pm)You can apply that logic to PHV too. The Volt needs the 220 volt would need 2 hours to charge half the pack (4kWh). PHV Prius only need 110V and 1.5 hours to fill up half it’s pack. Opportunity charging the smaller, less expensive pack more often gives you the best bang for your buck.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:48 pm)I know, I was just using a clever Socratic method (g). The *point* is, I was trying not to be argumentative. Where did “first time buyers” come from?
Let’s just call my question “rhetorical” and be done with it. It’s not on topic anyway.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:49 pm)OR…
You could do what I did http://www.foreverlawn.com/selectvr.html
This stuff looks so real that the professional lawn care guys stopped and asked how I kept my grass looking so good. They had to be told, “Get out of the truck and bend down- it’s plastic!”
I no longer have ANY gas powered appliances in my garage- except the automobiles. And now with the Volt…well you see where that goes
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Most excellent. +1
Be well,
Tagamet
/BBL
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:57 pm)If vehicles like the Volt become the norm it’s likely fuel formulations will be modified to provide better storage life.
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:05 pm)Might have to beef up the controller as well. A tuner chip swap may do a lot of improvement. Volt is supposed to be a family car. They probably dumbed down the go-pedal so gramma wouldn’t blow away too many tuner Civics.
This is what I was thinking for a Volt SS. Less energy efficient. More power. Something like 300 ft-lbs torque. Ya probably wouldn’t need 551 like a CTS-V. 300 would be plenty.
If you look at electric drag cars (and bikes), you get the idea. Full power at zero RPM.
Imaging pulling up next to a Challenger SRT-8 Hemi and blowing away their 0-60 time using no gasoline at all and completely silent!
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:14 pm)Probably not hard per se but to engineer it to work reliably over 10 years in temperature ranges of -45c to 50c is where it gets tricky.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:15 pm)I’m thinking of starting a new business.. The changing out of stale gas in Volts.
Bring me your Volt on a Friday, And for only $89.00 plus tax ~ about the cost of one night at a Holiday Inn, I’ll return your car the next night with a new tank of fresh gas. *price includes gas!
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:22 pm)Man, this thing really should have a Caddy or Buick badge. The engineering forethought and design quality is through the roof.
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:29 pm)I see what you mean. ” Coming Soon” – I will be checking it hourly. Impatient somewhat?
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:35 pm)Yes a serial hybrid (aka EREV) and a parallel hybrid (aka split power) will roughly have the same charging times and be able to use standard 120 volt outlets. Of the two advantages, the ability to use 120 volts would seem to be larger — once you get over five minutes or so you’re not going to be waiting, you’re going to be doing something else, so whether it’s thirty minutes or five hours is not going to matter.
This doesn’t mean the two types of vehicles are the same, however. The serial will use 50% less gas and will produce 80% less emissions than the urban capable parallel.
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:00 pm)First time car buyers won’t have gas-only car so they may have more range anxiety.
P.S: You ignored my question regarding the car you currently drive. If you consider that private information, I’ll understand.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:08 pm)Hey DonC FYI
I’ve noticed a lot of people here use the term “parallel” to describe the Prius.The presence of a power split device/gearset alone doesnt mean it’s JUST a parallel (although it can operate as one) But the ICE can also generate power via MG1 that is routed by the inverter directly to the traction motor (MG2) bypassing the battery (i.e. a series connection)
So the Prius (and pretty much ALL of the other “strong” hybrids including the GM 2-Modes) is most correctly referred to as being a “series-parallel” or SP hybrid.
A “pure” parallel hybrid generally has only one motor/generator unit. (Like the Hondas and General Motors PHT and BAS systems). Placement of the MGU can essentially be any place in the path of power where it can selectivley contribute motive torque along with the ICE.(i.e. a parallel path of power only)
HTH
WopOnTour
+4
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:29 pm)I could swear I read on this blog at some point that the Volt’s software will run the extender motor occasionally to prevent gas from going stale, even if the extender motor is never strictly required by driving conditions.
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:38 pm)You’re correct that the engine will run if it goes unused for extended periods, but running it will do nothing to keep the remaining gas from going stale.
HTH,
Be well,
Tagamet
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:38 pm)Allow me to correct a few points from your comment.
Series hybrid is NOT EREV. Series plugin hybrid can be called EREV. In fact any plugin hybrid (Series or Parallel) can be called EREV because they always start out in EV. Gas engine comes to assist under different circumstances, either it be “the battery ran out of charge” or “the driver demand more power”. It may be under different set of circumstances but the fundamental idea is the same.
Power split hybrid (Prius) is BOTH Series and Parallel hybrid. It has the best of both worlds. The gas engine is disconnected from the wheels (allows optimal RPM and load) yet it has direct mechanical power delivery system that use an elegant planetary gear-set. This direct drive is what gives the Prius 48 MPG on the highway.
Volt’s battery is more than twice bigger than the one in PHV Prius. Therefore, it will take more than 2x longer to charge the Volt with the same voltage plug. They are NOT roughly the same.
The number of EV miles you can drive is how much you can charge. Only what goes in can come out. The only difference is paying more for the bigger battery. Bigger battery can be justified for a pure EV (without on-board range extender) but how can you justify with the EREV like PHV Prius or Volt?
If you charge often, want to pay a fraction of the battery cost and gain an extra seat in the rear, PHV Prius is the way to go. Those that refuse to charge more than one or two times a day can pay extra and go with the Volt or Lead.
Can you provide the source of your “50% less gas and 80% less emission” claim? Surprising, you are implying you know emission of both of these vehicles….
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:45 pm)Yes, every 90 days. In the winter, if you leave the Volt unplugged and do a cold start, the Volt will use the ICE to warm up the battery pack.
All of these scenarios should not be dismissed to estimate your gas consumption.
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:48 pm)I have tried to correct him a few times. Unfortunately, it has not gone through to him yet. Thanks for a different way of putting it.
-2
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:10 pm)You’ll have to show me a point of reference for this comment.
In all fairness, I believe there was some preliminary data based on the original concept car that alluded to this feature. However the Kapuskasing experience tells us that the insulative “cocoon” of the Volt’s battery brick prevents it from losing significant heat over the course of a 24hr period of unplugged -40C/F ambient “cold soak” .
Assuming the vehicle was not parked while in Charge Sustain mode to begin with, NO ICE intervention is required under these conditions and the Volt can literally “drive away” on EV power.
As the battery warms through normal operation (and augmented by an innovative electric PTC cell heating system) the full available capacity of the battery is soon recovered. If charge sustain mode was/is initiated THEN the ICE will contribute additional heating via the liquid cooling/heat exchange system.
HTH
WopOnTour
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:10 pm)I’m not talking about DOD, I’m talking about how much capacity they will have available for use. I would presume (as I think most everyone does) that there will be 8 kwh’s available to Volt owner for as long as there is that much or more capacity in the entire battery (less the X% at the top and bottom to keep from ruining the battery). But I don’t believe we’ve ever had this explained in detail … and I could see the potential for having the BMS cut back on KWH’s available if it thought it was necessary to preserve battery life in order to meet warranty minimums.
——————
For example:
Say for the first 3 years of volt ownership I’ve got a daily commute of 50 miles and I notice that I pretty consistently get 38 miles on the battery before the range extender kicks in.
Then, on year 4, I notice that I’m consistently only getting 34 miles. What if the reason is that the BMS (battery management system) has now cut back my available capacity from 8 kwh’s to 7 kwh’s in order to preserve the remaining battery’s entire capacity so that there will be 8(ish) kwh’s availble at the 8 year point.
——————-
I’m not saying that is what will happen — but I am saying I would want to know these details before I purchased the car.
/I would want to know this type of info for any BEV or plug in hybrid. (i.e. exactly what is the warranty guaranteeing in terms of battery capacity available throughout the life of the car and at the end of the battery warranty? — how will this capacity be measured?).
- 40 miles AER is actually a pretty vague form of measurement when used in this context
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:15 pm)Battery size would be justified by the typical length of your commute. How can you suggest that the future PHV Prius has the perfect battery size and EV range for everyone? How many people will really be able to charge at work anytime soon even with simple 120V?
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:16 pm)How do you know how many people have range anxiety? I think 85% (or more) of Americans don’t even know what range anxiety is regarding electric vehicles. I’m not saying they wouldn’t understand the concept, but they just haven’t heard of it or even talked about it. You also need to realize that people that have gas cars may trade them in (or sell them) when they buy a Volt (or a Leaf), so it is not guaranteed they will have a gas car backup.
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:19 pm)While you guys are on the eries/parallel stuff, Why isn’t the HSD considered “Series”? ALTHOUGH there is no plug, the ICE does charge the batteries to run the electric motor and the “Power Split” will blend the ICE output with the MG1?
So If I look at it, if the ICE generates electricity that it puts into the battery that runs the electric motor, that is “Series”. AND if the electric motor is driving the car the same time the ICE is from the electricity from the ICE???? Well that all sounds series to me. The only thing that is parallel is one of the MG’s assisting the ICE.
So if there is no plug the ICE puts the juice into the battery for use of the electric drive motors. Sounds series to me.
carcus! What say YOU!!!
/monkeywrench….
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:27 pm)Article stated: “The system would also detect if no fuel had been uses for a period of 11 month inwhich case a dashboard display would light up, telling the driver the fuel needed to be replaced, as the limetime of fuel is considered to be one year.”
Maybe someone has asked this already (I am late getting a comment in today), but is there a way to properly drain the tank if you are over the 11 month mark and it is truly stale?
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:27 pm)Nothing’s construed. The example comes from real-world daily-driving data.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:28 pm)Hey Cappy,
Yep, the HSD is series/parallel so it does, in effect, have a mini genset working. I believe the hypermilers will “cheat” by holding the brake and running the engine to “series charge” the Nimh battery to full capacity before they zero out the mpg display to start their competitive mpg run. (i.e. they’re letting the “genset” charge the battery).
/ or were they dragging the brakes to let the regen charge the battery up ? …… J1701a would surely know more on that.
-2
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:31 pm)If you only drove it in reverse, that would indeed be an appropriate label. That path is always pure electrical. Forward has some aspects of parallel though, since part of engine power is used directly at times.
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:32 pm)My understanding of the BMS (which may well be totally incorrect) is that it would manage which cells were active at a given time, as well as monitoring individual cells’ “health”. By doing that it could draw on those cells necessary to provide a usable 40 AER for the 100K miles. Simple minds have simple understandings (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:37 pm)Yep someone answered that. Rather than scan all the comments, just use Control+F and type “classic” (I think that that word was only used in that post and my reply to it).
HTH
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:40 pm)Well, *that’s* clever!
Be well,
Tagamet
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:40 pm)Ever leave your car outside in the dead of winter in Minnesota while you work? With the temperature routinely well below freezing every, those 9 hours are more than enough to overcome the insulation. You’ll lose enough heat to require engine warmup.
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:42 pm)BMS may be the wrong term here, I probably just should have said the Volt’s on board controllers, or somethilng.
The point though is …. when we’ve heard Nissan say the Leaf’s range (AER) can vary from the 40′s to the 130′s …. then what in the world is GM guaranteeing the Volt buyer when they say 40 miles AER????
/ BTW, the points I’m bringing up are not just Volt specific. They would be important for any car with a big battery and a warranty. Say you think you’re battery is underperforming before the warranty is up and they (the manufacture) just call in Wayne Gerdes to drive your car and prove he can get the guaranteed AER out of it.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:46 pm)Dude, I think it is a guarantee that you get 8KWh for the length of the warranty period. The 50% use is their insurance that you will get that 8KWh within the cells “cycle count”.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:47 pm)#59
I agree. +1 Next case.
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:51 pm)I did not claim PHV Prius has the perfect battery size but it is aimed at the mass market so that many people can afford.
If nobody can afford the plugin car, what does it matter if it it meets 75% of the trip in EV or not?
The point is that almost EVERYBODY can use the first 10 EV miles. Mass market price is the key to displace the gasoline with electricity. Once the price of the battery drops, the range will increase. 14.5 miles will cover 51% of all the commute. Majority of the commute in EV is a very good goal at an affordable price.
What is unacceptable is to price the car at a very expensive level and expect everyone to buy it to enjoy 75% of the commute in EV.
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:09 pm)So you’re saying, If I want a guarantee …….
Chris Farley – Tommy Boy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im9gqooss_w
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:09 pm)That works for me. AND, there’s a charge port outside in the parking lot and more at our other govt garages.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:10 pm)Is it always “nobody” or “everyone” with you? GM expects to sell the Volt to 10,000 people the first year and 45,000 the second. It looks like they will have no problem doing so. Toyota doesn’t seem to expect to sell any plug-ins to anyone very soon.
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:11 pm)Yea, fear of running out of charge is almost instinctive. Thinking about how they really use the car and talking about the benefit and ways around it reduce that fear.
Some people here are using this FUD to cheerlead certain car.
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:15 pm)How come the ad at the top of this page now says “up to 300 mile driving range”? What happened to “up to 340 mile driving range”?
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:18 pm)I think it’s more a “Here’s 8KWh that is typically a 40AER range, your mileage will vary….” and how you use it is up to you.
/I don’t think we’ll ever get a guarantee of 40 miles. Probably more of a deviation similar to what the LEAF gets 45 – 138miles.
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:19 pm)There’s an Ad?….lol
I block all of those.
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:22 pm)That would boost the MPG for that one competition but the overall MPG would go down. Series hybrid is less efficient due to conversion loss. Fortunately, Prius has both paths and chooses the best one. Note, the best can be a combination of both!
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:27 pm)I was just making my point clear. Please don’t take it literally!
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:29 pm)Congrats !
None of my business but just wondering Ted. How come you’re ordering in Michigan while living in Florida ? Wasn’t there a closer dealership ? What’s the story ?
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:34 pm)Many of the Mini-e drivers say the same thing. Personally, I don’t mind making a small change in my daily life style if it means I don’t have to go to a gas station and I could fill up at home for less and get me the friggin hell off of OPEC juice.
/I wonder how much the JelleyBean car iMiEv will come in at $$$?
+9
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:39 pm)Oh the humanity….
We have cheerleaders for the Volt on a GM-Volt site.
The real question is why we have Tokyo Rose types pushing the Toyota brand on a GM-Volt site. Now that’s FUD.
-2
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:43 pm)This was posted back in Jan 5th in an interview with Frank Weber.
——————————————————————
The car will know that? Say if you leave it unused for a week?
No one will want to condition the battery for a week. What’s happening at low temperatures depends on what the state of charge is, we haven’t seen any major sensitivities. This car could sit there for two weeks, but without conditioning it again, it certainly wont start on electric. The engine would start and condition the battery for a few minutes.
——————————————————————
http://gm-volt.com/2009/01/05/chevy-volt-battery-temperature-control/
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:44 pm)I guess the bottom line here is that on any car with an expensive battery and a warranty on that battery … I would want to very carefully read and understand all the fine print on the warranty.
I would want the option of having the battery independently load tested if I had a dispute with the manufacturer. There could be quite a few dollars at stake after all.
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (4:50 pm)They’ll prolly prorate. They do that on other stuff…
-8
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:01 pm)You forgot to label me as Paris Rose type as well for supporting Nissan Leaf (majority own by Renault). I promote any technology that reduces fossil fuel and emission at an affordable price.
My preference is FULL hybrid (Toyota or Ford) so you will see me defending it. I do NOT support mild or assist hybrids. You will see me criticizing Honda IMA.
As I stated before, I currently own and drive a Prius. I walk the walk and talk the talk to what I believe in. Some of us here are embarrassed to disclose their current ride. In my opinion, cheerleading is being an internet keyboard warrior. If you find this offensive, you are one of them and I apologize in advance.
-2
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:09 pm)Yes there’s a Chevrolet Volt info ad on this page and Lyle’s home page.
I made a deposit with Criswell Chevrolet on July 3rd before the Volt arrived for the 1776 drive event. Was told I was #5 on their list.
I tried to order a Volt after the $41,000 MSRP announcement. Was told they would sell at MSRP. I made the mistake of trying to qualify my order on an acceptable CS mode mpg and the order fell thru.
I’m again trying to get a purchase order now. But (300-40)/9 = 28.9 mpg for CS mode would be a real deterent to using the Volt for extended trips.
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:12 pm)JohnK says: “The “replace fuel” warning makes me wonder if GM thought about that as well. I wonder if there is a drain or some way to easily get rid of stale fuel?”
Perhaps the dashboard display could say: “replace stale fuel or run engine in CS mode,” and the lights could be flashing on and off. Simply not plugging in the car for a day or two would then seem to be the easiest solution.
In any event, this underscores why GM is pursuing a careful, slow, steady ramp-up. I’ve heard of at least one skeptic who resorted to bringing up this “stale fuel” argument, even though to me, it seems slightly overblown, but nonetheless worth considering.
Regards, George, Sudbury, Canada
+10
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:12 pm)My only point is that you have come to a GM-Volt site. A fan site for the Chevrolet Volt. Clearly you love your Toyota, thats great. But you are here at a Chevrolet fan site trying to tell us how great it is.
The volt is an E-REV. We like it. Do you think we don’t know that Hybrids are out there too.
Do you go to your local mosque and tell the Muslims they are wrong too?
It’s great you have passion for your product and that makes you happy. I am just pointing out that you are just barking up the wrong tree.
I would suggest a fine site run by one of our regulars..
http://john1701a.com/
-6
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:17 pm)The Chevy Volt is in essence a coal burning car. Over 50% of the nations electricity is produced by coal burning power plants. Nuclear and natural gas are 2nd and 3rd. If the Volt and similar “all electric” cars become popular it would stand to reason that the demand for electricity produced via coal burning power plants would increase.
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:29 pm)“Now it looks like we know what Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz meant when he once said “there will be a few that will have their gas go bad, we have ways to address that as well.””
lol……Beano works
http://www.beanogas.com/
-10
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:33 pm)(click to show comment)
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:51 pm)I checked it on another PC and Hey, you’re right. It does say “Up to 300 miles driving range”, but really quick.
Anyone else see it? Typo maybe? Or……hmmmm…….
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:52 pm)I answered this back on #50, but here is the procedure that works for nearly all Fuel injected cars…
———————-
… connect a fuel pressure gauge hose without the gauge to the test port on the fuel rail. Or remove fuel line that goes to the engine off of the fuel filter and connect a hose. In both cases put the hose that you are installing into a gas can.
… remove fuel pump relay, it should be green and it will have a fuse in it. Connect a fused jumper wire between circuit 30 and 87. This will run the fuel pump, wait until the tank is empty.
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:00 pm)It’s still open to interpretation whether they mean 300 miles on charge sustaining or 300 miles total.
This is what is says over on Chevrolet.com a few minutes ago when I checked.
“You won’t have to worry about having enough time to fully charge Volt. A partially charged battery will work until it runs out, then the gas-powered electric generator will seamlessly kick in to provide electricity and extend your range up to 300 miles until you can plug in again or you can refuel.”
+7
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:11 pm)So is your PC, please turn it off. (Sorry, couldn’t help myself)
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:19 pm)Huh?
So why does the Prius/Fusion & Altima operate in EV only sometimes with the ICE off? I’ve rode in each and each can operate in EV only mode.
I was under the impression that when the Volt needed more juice AFTER depletion mode, it would “Dip” into the batt pack…….say when passing, up hill, drag?
+4
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:22 pm)I like it more simply because it comes from a US based company. It is really that simple for me.
I like the Hondas and Toyota’s from an engineering point of view, I just happen to not like the Japanese way of doing things.
This article hits some highlights.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
Oil will be all but gone in 50-100 years whether we all drive a prius or not. my question is, will we be buying american made transportation at that time.
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:23 pm)Then that banner is doing the Volt an injustice.
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:31 pm)I cannot help but comment that this seems crazy. If you want to get the gas out of the car, stop charging it and let the engine run.
Rube Goldberg comes to mind.
Honda has a similar approach for getting a car off of some blocks.
http://autorepair.about.com/library/multimedia/hhonda-ad-300k.swf
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:38 pm)I didn’t know that. Interesting. But the issue wasn’t so much about the serial – parallel terminology as it was about gas usage and emissions. When talking about how effective a vehicle will be in reducing gas usage and limiting emissions, a big difference is whether the vehicle can complete its entire drive cycle in EV mode. The Prius might be able to have an electrical connection between the ICE and MG2, and the Volt could have a direct connection mechanical connection between its ICE and the wheels, so they might technically both be serial-parallel or parallel-serial, but, because the Volt can run purely in EV mode for up to 40 miles and up to 100 MPH, the Volt will use half the gas and produce 80% fewer emissions than a Prius that can only go 60 MPH and 10 miles in EV mode.
If you’ve done this then you’re seriously bad at explanations. Actually what you’re doing is trying to change the subject because your suggestion that the plug-in Prius can remotely compete with the Volt simply isn’t defensible. If you care about results, who cares if at very low speeds the Prius has an electrical connection between the ICE and MG2? You can attach any label you want to the plug-in Prius drive train, call it “parallel” or “split drive” or “parallel serial” or “butter on a pancake”, at the end of the day the plug-in Prius will use 2X the gas and produce 4X the emissions when compared to a Volt. That’s a lot better than the standard Prius can do but it’s still a long way from being competitive.
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:45 pm)usbseawolf2000 Said:
So the Prius (and pretty much ALL of the other “strong” hybrids including the GM 2-Modes) is most correctly referred to as being a “series-parallel” or SP hybrid.
Does series-parallel mean they burn gasoline in series with the piston engine and in parallel with the electric motor? ie: all the time?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:51 pm)Do the math. If those long trips aren’t every single weekend, and your daily drives are on the battery, you’ll be using the CS mode so rarely that you’ll still be getting effective MPG way beyond what a present-day Prius or Jetta TDI will provide.
Simple way to look at it. If half your driving miles use the gasoline engine, then your effective MPG will be double the number published (some day) for CS mode. How does 57.8 MPG sound? And I’m guessing that the half-on-gas (or worse) buyer will be relatively rare in the Volt’s customer base. I expect to be the 10%-on-gas guy: 289 MPG.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:55 pm)… so I guess if they price the car at a very expensive level and only manufacture 10,000 of them the first year, it means that everyone is expected to buy it. Well done, Mr. Logic.
It is amazing how Volt-a-phobic Prius fans refuse to accept the idea of a small start, using initially expensive technology; with the idea of increasing volumes and lowering costs moving forward (the way nearly all new technology has been introduced — including HSD).
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:58 pm)Connected doesn’t mean connected and running. In the Prius MG2 can power the car up to 25 MPH without the ICE coming on.
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:03 pm)All of these comments are interesting but in the end the real issue for any of these cars is how far can one travel on as little gas as possible.
The use of electricity has merit because the cost to the end user for now is very low…. when compared to gas, diesel, NG, propane etc.
The lower emissions are a pleasant side benefit.
Some of the new ICE options may make a run at electric use but it will take awhile. And smart companies like GM may incorporate the new ICE tech. to the VOLT like cars and the final results will become very impressive.
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:06 pm)My only point is that people think “all electric” or hybrid cars are saving the environment. Since the vast majority of electricity is produced by coal it would appear that you are fooling yourself. You may be decreasing your personal carbon footprint but you are increasing the amount of coal that is burned to produce the electricity. I guess ignorance really is bliss.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:13 pm)One thing at a time :+}
The better electric generation option may end up being atomic power from the new design power plants. Fewer emissions and cheaper power eventually. Probably looking at 10 to 20 years from now.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:15 pm)Environmentalism is a large factor in the coming of automotive electrification; but it is by no means the only one. If we pay huge sums to hostile countries for petroleum, only because there is no real alternative for personal transportation, it will (continue to) have large negative ramifications for our culture and our nation which have nothing necessarily to do with “saving the planet.”
The point about turning off your laptop is spot on, BTW. If “dirty electricity” is a problem, it needs to be tackled; whether it is electric cars or electric toothbrushes using it. I would think that increasing adoption of electric vehicles would only add impetus to efforts in that direction.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:36 pm)If you care about oil consumption and pollution, compared to a Volt, your Prius is more of a gas guzzler than an Escalade is compared to your Prius.
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:41 pm)If the CS mileage is 50 mpg, GM has incidentally developed a cheap high-mileage gas-powered vehicle, i.e., pull the batteries to save cost (and weight, furthering the MPG) and just run off the range extender!.
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:48 pm)EV mode, that’s correct. STEALTH mode, it’s 46 mph. PHV upgrade, it’s been observed up to 65 mph. Next Monday, I’ll have a chance to observe that firsthand.
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:52 pm)I agree with your math. I’m now retired, so I too expect that 90% of my driving will be in EV mode. I have 73k miles at 50.9 mpg on my 2004 Prius, so if I use it for the 10% gas miles I’d see 509 mpg total. I could do the same or better though with a Leaf instead of the Volt and save $8000 on purchase price. But I like the Volt sooooo much more. Therefore, I’m hoping the “up to 300-mile range” is calculated on a 6 gal tank yielding (300-40)/6 = 43.33 CS mode mpg. Then I wouldn’t feel so bad using the Volt instead of Prius on longer trips.
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:01 pm)The OPOC engine could be the ideal powerplant for the range-extending generator. GM ought to seize the opportunity to get ahead of the rest of the auto industry with this – it’s compact, has fewer parts, better emissions, high power density, superior economy, capable of running on alternative fuels…… with production numbers set at low levels, the risk factor would be very manageable for GM to invest in all the setup costs necessary for this new motor. The window of opportunity won’t be open forever – GM, DO IT NOW!
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:33 pm)Thanks for the mention of the OPOC tech. The CEO of Ecomotors sounds exactly like Frank Weber to me. I hope that GM *does* get in on the ground floor.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:44 pm)Seems like nirvana for you. Enjoy the ride.
The technology under the hood of the Prius has taken a long road to get to a plug in version. Still, the emphasis is, was, and will be, on mpg of gasoline.
The Volt, however is so much more elegant of a drivetrain. Battery to the wheels, generator to the battery. The emphasis will always be on the source of electricity.
Imagine that. A car that we can actually buy from GM that we can drive for 15,000 miles each year and still have to worry about the gas going stale.
Incredible.
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:56 pm)What a nice problem to have… gas going stale because of it not being used fast enough!
The Chevrolet Volt…. the game changer.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:17 pm)Sorry, no cigar; but thank you for playing anyway!
A battery pack is required for CS-mode. The generator of the Gen I Volt comes as close as possible to matching the load, but doesn’t quite. The difference comes from the battery; it supplies sudden surges of acceleration, and absorbs regen later (or takes a small charge from the engine) to recover. This allows the engine to run over a more limited range of rpms than one supplying power to the wheels directly; this in turn allows for greater efficiency.
In other words, you need batteries to act as a “buffer.” Because only 1-5% of the total pack capacity is used for this, it has a very small effect on battery life. If you tried to substitute a much smaller battery pack, you would use more of it on each “surge and recover” cycle, greatly limiting it’s life. So, you need a fairly substantial pack; one large enough to make plugging in really pay off.
That’s not to say that a future version of the Volt couldn’t be offered with something like 20 miles AER for less money; while offering the same good CS-mode mpg. Plugging in will always be part of the Volt picture.
BTW, better batteries expected by Gen III (or possibly Gen II) will be able to take more cycles than the LG Chem cells. This would allow more of the pack to buffer a smaller engine running over an even narrower rpm range; I fully expect CS-mode mpg topping 60 from this approach.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:26 pm)I still am looking for an answer to a several times asked question. Can I start the Volt on ICE and
eventually switch over to my daily 40 mile battery charge only?
Am planning on showing the world how an electric auto works; but if I have to drive a distance to the demonstration location all my battery charge may be used up. Showing the public just another car running on gas will get me nothing.
BIG BTRY
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:26 pm)It really won’t sink in until the weeks go by without stopping for gas. GM, you better get a Voltec truck in the production pipeline. Have a feeling my wife is going to Bogart my Volt.
=D-Volt
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:29 pm)Ohhhhhh, the possibilities! I can’t wait.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:31 pm)Don’t Bogart that VOLT!!!
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:33 pm)No, even in CS mode, you are showing them an electric vehicle. The performance will (should) be indistinguishable.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:35 pm)Apparently, “Mountain Mode” will allow you to reserve some of your charge, which you would theoretically then be able to access later by disabling the mode. The purpose of “Mountain Mode” (is this the official name? We’re not sure) is to hold back more charge in anticipation of longer periods of heavy use (as one might encounter in the mountains).
That might come as small consolation, except that GM carried out precisely that sort of demonstration in NY by recharging in 30 minute sessions (during which participants viewed a presentation indoors); this allowed something like a 5 – 6 mile capacity which was more than adequate for a dozen turns on a closed course. We can’t know until specs are published, but I expect “Mountain Mode” to hang on to a bit more charge than this.
EDIT: As Tagamet correctly points out, the only difference on battery power is that the car will be a bit quieter.
-6
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:42 pm)Makes you wonder about BAS, eh? Imagine if that smaller battery-pack had been developed for Volt junior instead.
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:47 pm)I think you guys are more obsessive with the labels, specifically EREV. You are right, who cares about how everything works. Car buyer will just look at what is proven, how much does it cost, how much gas it will use, how low the emission, how reliable it would be and where can I get it repaired.
I request one more time for the source of your data regarding PHV Prius and Volt gas consumption and emission. Those are some wild guesses and from the real-world data I have seen, those numbers are NOT even close.
Regarding the competitiveness, the entire package along with the cost and the benefits is the name of the game. Bragging rights for longer EV miles is counter productive for the tax payer subsidy and country deficit.
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:59 pm)Yes the ICE is OFF but there is still a direct mechanical connection present. However (and as I alluded in my post) when ICE is OFF it is contributing a reactionary (i.e. stationary) component to the input split planetary gearset.
If you understand a basic planetary arrangement, look at it this way. The basic THSII has MG2 driving the ring/internal gear and IT drives the front drive axles (albeit through a chain driven final drive but still directly linked) , MG1 is directly connected to the sun gear, and the ICE is directly connected to the planetary carrier.
This is a fixed, unchanging mechanical arrangement, therefore the speeds of each item is dependent on the the speeds of the other 2 members.
Probably the best on-line nomograph to play around with these is found here:
http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
The tool isn’t perfect however as it still has a few issues however such as it not being able to show how ICE is started at 40mph (the counter-rotating MG1 is actually electrically “slowed” to accomplish this. But the basics are all there.
And YES, the Volt is able to “tap” into the reserve 8kwh for short duration events such as very high loads during steep grades, which was my point exactly- IT DOESN’T REQUIRE TO FIRE UP ICE! (unlike the Prius where not only will the ICE have to fire but it’s going to have to operate at near maximum load throughout the event, burning a near maximum amount of fuel in the process)
HTH
WOT
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:06 pm)A lot of people wonder why anyone would pay $25 grand for an economy car. Just buy a used manual tranny Civic or Saturn and save a heck of a lot more money than buying a hybrid.
Perspecitve and performance.
Isn’t the Volt the second cheapest EV you can buy? Even then the argument is whether or not we should spend the money to have a gas motor on board, not mpg.
If you can’t afford a Volt, don’t buy one. But don’t profess inferiority for value, it’s just not relevant to EV’s vs mpg.
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:07 pm)Who is the market for Volt?
How many automatic transmission owners actually know how their drivetrain works?
Consumers don’t care about that. Their focus is about being affordable & reliable… in other words, the basics… not anything close to what enthusiasts sing praise about.
KISS
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:08 pm)That’s rich coming from you. You and john1701a are the most obsessive people I know.
There is no publicly available “real-world data,” as you know full well. We are fans here, not GM employees; you’re not going to shake something loose ahead of publication.
It’s amazing how much you and john1701a have in common. Except for your on-page personalities, there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between you.
You are both self-important wasters of time and electrons, who would be far more appreciated elsewhere (by both Prius fans there, and Volt fans here).
+4
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:10 pm)… Well, I guess that rules out the Prius!!!!!
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:12 pm)That’s just your focus, not the Volt buyer’s focus. Why are you insisting on creating competition where there is none?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:13 pm)Ditto!!
LOL.
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:14 pm)I’ll look forward to your retiree experiences with the Volt. I’ll be retired within the lifetime of my 2012 Volt, freed from the daily 20 mile round trip to work.
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:15 pm)Who is the market for Volt?
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:16 pm)You’re correct, but why do you *bother*. He (singular) won’t run short of putrid hot air.
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:19 pm)We are dealing with people used to redefining reality to suit themselves, and they appear not to know that they accomplish this only for themselves.
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:20 pm)CONGRATS!
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:20 pm)Because he tasks me!
I thought about asking this straight out; is multiple personality disorder your official diagnosis?
Actually, Google reveals Mr. Seawolf actually does get around to a lot of forums; where john-boy’s handle leads only to his site. That’s not to say that Mr. Seawolf isn’t john-boy’s “out-and-about” persona.
+3
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:22 pm)You don’t know?
I’ll bet you can’t get 10 g’s over sticker for a Toyota. (sorry about that, it’s the car salesman in me talking to this guy!)
But enough of this, it’s the typical dead end for mpg cars vs the Volt. The better argument is EREV vs BEV.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:24 pm)All terminology BS aside, I am totally 100% in agreement with absolutely EVERYTHING you have stated in this post! +100
WopOnTour
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:28 pm)The quotes are not mine but I’ll answer it anyway.
In the Series path, the gas engine (ICE) turn the generator (MG1). The generated electricity is sent to the traction motor (MG2) to turn the wheels. MG2 is connected output shaft to the wheel. ICE -> MG1 -> Power Control -> MG2/Wheel
In the Parallel path, the gas engine turn the wheels while the electricity from the battery will assist the traction motor (MG2). ICE + Battery -> Wheel
The electricity from MG1 from the Series path or the regen brake can recharge the battery. The genius of the design is that both paths can co-exists at the same time. The power split device (PSD) split 28% of the torque to MG1 and 72% to the wheel.
The key factor in controlling how much power each path gets is the generator. If the generator stops spinning, you have 100% Parallel. If the generator redlines while the car is at rest, you have 100% series. These are two end boundaries. If the generator is spinning half way, you have a mixture of both paths.
The generator (MG1) can spin backward, effectively becoming a motor responsible to start the gas engine. This get rid of two legacy devices (starter and alternator).
The traction motor (MG2) can also spin backward, effectively becoming a reverse gear. This get rid of the most mechanically complex legacy device (step-gear transmission). MG2 is the reason Prius can go from -25 MPH (reverse) to 112 MPH (forward) in a single gear ratio, with assist from the ICE.
The lack of step-gear transmission did not cripple Prius. At low speed, MG2 provides the same torque as first gear, just like an EV. Since HV battery is not as powerful as an EV battery, gas engine helps out. Gas engine turns the generator (MG1) to generated the needed electricity. Basically, the Series path is being utilized during low gear or passing scenario where sudden thrust is required at the wheel.
At high speed or during low torque situations, the generator (MG1) would relax and let most of the power from the gas engine (ICE) route directly to the wheels. This is basically a high gear (overdrive).
Toyota decided to call this E-CVT for marketing purpose. It behaves like a CVT but torque multiplication is done by electricity (rather than cones and belt slipping mechanically).
Everything worked out beautifully with a very simple configuration. Below is the link to the source where I learned how it worked. The second link is from the same site with links to more pages to learn.
http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/original/Understanding/PowerSplitDevice.htm
http://www.ecrostech.com/prius/original/Understanding/Contents.htm
+4
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:29 pm)At least 55,000 people! That much is assured. (and almost certainly from ALL walks of life)
Potentially many hundreds of thousands more as well!
But dont worry, I predict your “precious” will continue to sell well too…
WOT
-6
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:33 pm)There is a huge difference in the approach. HSD in Prius always cost the same. Gen1 started at $19,995 and Gen3 started at $22,000 (due to inflation). It was priced at mass market price and locked there to protect Gen1 resale value.
If Gen2 and Gen3 Volt is going to cost less, Gen1 Volt’s resale price will tank. So who will be the guinea pig?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:33 pm)Naw, more like Borderline Personality. It sounds innocuous, but think schizophrenic on steroids and on a mission within his own fantasy world. No real hope for being cured and absolutely impervious to outside influence. Very, very sad, really. Back ward. Minimize contact with real human beings.
Single egg twins would explain the two of them.
Be well,
Tagamet
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:38 pm)2010 Prius can go up to 65 MPH with the ICE at 0 RPM. We call this EV mode.
Above that speed, MG1 can idle the ICE to protect itself from over-speeding. Even with the ICE idling, everything is still powered by the electricity. We call this stealth mode.
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:41 pm)The term “game changer” means switching to something new.
I always thought that would result in the replacement of the traditional mainstream vehicle.
With a price of $41k and such emphasis on “all electric”, its working out to be a nice speciality vehicle instead.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:41 pm)Good Post! and very accurate. You can use this technique whenever you wanted to intentionally “bank” some capacity for some specific EV maneuvers late in the discharge cycle.
(eg, you wish to remain “stealthy” while you drive through your neigborhood? or while stalking your ex?) LOL
Yes, it is still called mountain mode and accessible via the info center. (only ECON/GREEN LEAF and SPORT modes are addressable from a capacitive button on the center stack.
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:42 pm)To clarify above post…
A normal Prius only allow up to 25 MPH in EV mode to protect the small HV battery. PHV Prius allows EV up to 65 MPH.
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:43 pm)Very late in the thread here, but GM could do this very easily.. when the computer thinks the fuel is about to go stale (gas cap has not been opened in the last 20k miles), it just turns on the CS mode all the time, even when the battery is fully charged. It displays this on the dash and once it gets down to 1/4 of the tank it reverts to normal mode and reminds you to fill up the tank with fresh premium fuel.. cant get any simpler than this.
-5
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:46 pm)What a cheap shot. I guess Volt is a gas guzzler compared to the Leaf uh?
Prius is less expensive than Escalade but Volt is more expensive than Prius. Even Leaf is less expensive than the Volt so skip that stepping stone right?
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:52 pm)Maybe in your fantasy world. In reality, the Volt has a planetary gear-set and clutches. How or when they will be used is still a secret. I think the team will share with us when the CS MPG is announced. To me it sounds like they are doing last minute hacking to bring up the CS MPG.
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:56 pm)In CS mode, Volt is a hybrid. Power comes from both the battery and gasoline. Remember, battery can not charge and discharge at the same time. When it is being recharged, power to the wheel has to come from gasoline (through engine and generator).
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:58 pm)An interesting paradox.
Such a configuration would help achieve high CS efficiency… but destroys their praise of that “all electric” drive.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:58 pm)Exactly, and the beauty of it is that we DONT import coal.. its all mined in the US. Some may complain about coal but its getting cleaner everyday.. really interesting tech is being tested now to burn coal cleanly.
Of course the Volt can also be powered from wind, solar or nuclear if your utility does not use coal.. the flexibility means you will always be able to get to work, no matter what OPEC does.
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:01 pm)Keep in mind that it is for the Gen1 Prius. The maximum speed of the generator has been since raised to 10,000 RPM. Besides that, the reduction gear and wheel diameter were changed to allow 65 MPH at ICE 0 RPM.
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:04 pm)Your perspective is off. Buy a used hybrid for $10k. This way you get hybrid exclusive premium features as well.
-3
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:08 pm)Fair enough, so show me how you got those specific numbers? Did you just made them up? I would not make claims like that if I can not back them up.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:09 pm)Old news, that ICE to wheels debate.
The elegance of the drivetrain is that there is no need for 6 gears, automatic clutch or not, no need for a constantly varying torque ratio transmission, belt driven or otherwise, no need for many of the drivetrain friction losses and wear as we know it.
Elegant is indeed a proper description.
If there actually exists a direct connection as you refer to, then even that application is true to simplicity as well.
The Volt is made to be plugged in, everything else just makes it an excellent car anyone can drive.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:13 pm)Buy a used Saturn for $2k and still average 35 mpg! You can go on but I won’t, this is silly.
-4
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:16 pm)Thank you Mr. Psychologist. I’ll give you a free shot because I won’t go so low with the personal attacks.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:16 pm)I can tell you exactly what you are going to find.
Assuming load is low AND you use a suitable scan tool to observe raw transaxle OSS data the PHEV Prius will light up ICE at exactly 101km/hr (60.6mph) as dictated by the software.
Unfortunately instrument panel speedometer gage has a myriad own “stacked” tolerances and built in hysterisis to avoid “flicker” (and has a resolution of 1mph) so you can’t really go by that reliably.
You can probably drive it is a precise fashion on a down-grade that will result in the IP showing a bit more than that (65 maybe?) but a scan tool snapshot or data aquisition tools would show the software is precise in it’s command.
But thats OK though because apparently you and seawolf will NEVER go over 60mph anyways right? (and you’re ALWAYS on the down-grade)
Regards
WopOnTour
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:21 pm)ChuckR, you have so little faith. Why is it so hard for you to accept that GM engineers were aiming for 50 MPG in CS mode? The European Cruze uses the same ICE as in the Volt and it gets 40+.
As for your formula, it not 300-40 AER! The word that the Volt had a 9 gallon tank, I believe came from some Vancouver EV enthusiasts. However the true range for those test vehicles was not given; probably much higher than 300 originally stated for a 6 gallon tank. Some here have estimated 45 MPG; would that be acceptable to you?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:21 pm)Just when I thought you were the one with prowess AND restraint.
Must be time to say good night.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:24 pm)I was not aware that GM had ever mentioned “tapping into the reserve 8kwh’s” at any time during this “fully open development process”. This would go a long way towards diminishing or eliminating a power fade event when the battery’s buffer zone was used up during CS operation and more power was still needed.
Is this an insider reveal?
/P.S. Wopontour, you sure seem to know a lot about the Prius, is this a hobby of yours? A paid hobby?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:26 pm)No, it’s been mentioned here several times.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:31 pm)Must have missed it. Got a link?
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:37 pm)Not at my fingertips, but it’s straight from the GM engineering team. It *may* have been Weber talking during one of the video test drives.
This may help clarify my earlier post today about monitoring/using different cells during the life of the vehicle.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:43 pm)Well, I’m not going to say it was never mentioned , …. but …
I sure think I would have remembered. Allowing a dip into the additional 8 kwh’s would have a big (diminishing/eliminating) effect on power fade. I never recall seeing anything like this depicted on GM’s drawings or hearing anyone mention that they were ever going to use more than 8 kwh’s.
There were some pretty long discussions/disagreements on what the effect of power fade would be and had I known, I would certainly have included this into my analysis.
One thing off the top of my head now would be that the car will perform differently as the battery ages if this is true (i.e. the onset of power fade will vary with an aging battery).
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:49 pm)Maybe I just made it up, but I don’t think so.
Why have twice the battery and then never use it? Maybe Lyle can clarify if he sees this (he could also shoot me an email if I’m talking about something that’s inaccurate (or supposed to remain unspoken). I’m a team player.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:50 pm)Haha, sorry to disapoint but I was just funnin’ with them.
No personal attacks implied or intended!
WOT
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:54 pm)Add,
I have thought (and several times mentioned) that power fade on the volt would seem to be an extreme disadvantage to the cars design, to the point that it might be a safety issue.
If GM had to resort to “dipping into the remaining 8″ in order to fix the problem, .. then I would say that it’s not really a fix. It’s more like sweeping the problem under the rug while the battery is fresh, only to have it appear again later on down the road as the battery loses capacity.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:55 pm)Not if the computer is monitoring the individual cells. It’d be able to *avoid* that by calling on as many cells as necessary. No?
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:58 pm)Boy, we’re looking at this from exactly mirror directions (which is fine – we’ll know soon enough). It’s called battery MANAGEMENT. If it works to get 40 AER for the life of the vehicle, how is that cheating?
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:08 am)no
The volt will always use all of its cells. It will just never use more than 8kwh’s capacity out of the entire pack (or so we were told).
///looks like WOT has left the building
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:11 am)Maybe someone will break the impasse later today.
Be well,
Tagamet
/It’s after 1 a.m. Night all
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:12 am)Not even close. Really? http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=457
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:13 am)Dude, AGAIN so much incorrect and inaccurate in this post. Much of it just plain wrong, wrong, wrong!
I really dont find the blog format very conducive for these types of technical discussions. Perhaps tomorrow I’ll dissect this post in the forums and we can discuss further if you wish.
WopOnTour
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:16 am)Yup. FWIW I think it was the right decision. And the great thing is that Lutz just came out and owned it.
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:16 am)Do you have a link to THAT? That’s the first I’d heard of that. Seriously.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:23 am)You can’t ask more questions after you’ve said goodnight.
Now turn that light off and go to sleep.
+2
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:24 am)Cheap shot? You asked the question. I just answered it — accurately.
As for the Leaf, that’s a “yes and no”. For trips under 40 miles it would be a “no”. For trips over 40 miles and under 80, the answer would be “yes”. For trips over 80 miles probably “no” because realistically the Leaf won’t work so it would depend on what you used. The Leaf and Volt are just different beasts.
But either one of them beats any Prius on the road or on the drawing board hands down. Both GM and Nissan set out to leapfrog the Prius, and both have succeeded admirably. The Prius is yesterday’s technology. Time to get over it and move on. Embrace the future. Maybe Toyota will even come up with something competitive.
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:25 am)LOL, point taken, but I’ll check for your answers later today.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:27 am)Good one. +1
Aug 11th, 2010 (12:55 am)Thank goodness this kind of car is finally here. With China alone adding 1,000,000 cars per month, it’s just a matter of time before the Sauds decide to charge we Americans $200 barrel. Get the electrics and hybrids now, may get tougher later on.
Aug 11th, 2010 (2:08 am)No. I’m still here. (still shaking my head over some of Mr. Seawolf’s Prius posts!)
So you are saying that the unused capacity outside the 30-80% state of charge window represents the “unusable” capacity?
Hmmm
Well I guess that’s a problem EVERYONE will be faced with as that particular SOC operating range and associated depth of discharge is pretty much standard issue with most known Li-Ion cell chemistries in order to maintain consistent battery output performance throughout AND prevent cell damage due to overcharge or deep discharge.
While there is obviously a direct relationship, The state of charge is NOT directly proportionate to remaining energy capacity.
Considering no other manufacturer is claiming their EV battery has only 50% “usable” capacity, methinks there’s a little bit more to it than that on the Volt.
Think about it.
288 cells. What an an odd and interesting number 288. (evenly divisable by 2 or 3 and multiples thereof)
So 288 large form-factor Lithium Polymer cells at say ~3.6 Volts each. If these were pure series connected that would be 1036.8 Volts! So just how does one rationalize that 288 mathematically to create a pack? Sure, you could put 3 cells in parallel and series connect those to make a “fixed” 345V pack.But how do you physically accomplish that then considering there are 2 cells in each prismatic envelope,(what a wiring mess!) and those are bundled into an 36 cell (18 envelope) module/cluster/blocks (circle whatever term suits you) that’s ultimately combined somehow to form the 9 module pack (well physically yes 9, but “virtually” i.e. in software, really only 8 “equally” sized modules, once you combine the two 1/2 length (18 cell) blocks necessary only to optimize the available T-shape volume. And assuming you can get the necessary power from each cell and didn’t require the energy capacity neccesitating 3 cells in “parallel” , why would you want to make your cell arrangement a “permanent fixture” if you didn’t have to? (That’s old school HEV stuff! LOL)
But this 288 cell structure, combined with some switching electronics certainly facilitates the potential to create different cell/envelope “combinations” to create numerous “virtual” 345.6V packs through a myriad of series-parallel arrangements.
As such, the advanced battery management system (BMS) would be able to adjust and actively balance the participating cells to insure both a “reserve” of fresh cell power is always available for short term use AND to insure maximum cell (and pack) life expectancy.So sure, at any given moment only 8kwh of capacity is directly addressable and being drawn from, but the reserve can and will on occasion be tapped into- especially during short-term so called “burst” routines or when the existing “active” capacity is being negatively affected by certain factors.It’s also how you can virtually guarantee 40 miles AER under the widest range of conditions!
It’s somewhat similar to what Tesla has done with their 3000+ cell pack. With transistorized switching able to make or break a cell’s connection point and participation to the pack , you can potentially even “bump” an under performing cell out of the equation, without having to perform ANY physical repairs to the vehicle.
So I personally dont think of the Volt’s battery pack as “wasting” 50% of it’s capacity through lack of use (who wants to pay for that?) it ALL get’s used, just not during any one particular slice in time.(the scheduling of which is detail that I am anxious to be able to rationalize myself and explain some day)
This is how I understand it anyways. I could be totally wrong though, happens a often actually. Remember I’m just an old man that’s been around the block a few times too many.
Gnite!
WopOnTour
Aug 11th, 2010 (4:23 am)Reminds me of the clean cycle on a self cleaning oven
Aug 11th, 2010 (5:41 am)All this is just meant to make people go, hmmm, stale gas? What are they talking about?
The clamor for 50mpg cars was interesting, the clamor for almost no gas cars will be mind boggling. IMO
Aug 11th, 2010 (6:36 am)The Volt always uses all its cells equally (that is a big responsability of the BMS), EACH cell is only discharged 50%, within its 30-80% DOD.. GM has stated they can isolate bad cells/modules in an emergency mode.. so probably you have 3 cells in parallel, then those 3 cells are placed in series with 4 other groups to form a 14.4V module using 12 cells. The BMS should have the ability to bypass bad 14.4V modules in an emergency.. the total 345V of the pack will drop so you will have to slow down.
Volt has to use all the cells together to deliver the full 150hp rating, at a 7C overall discharge rating. Since 3 cells are in parallel then each cell only sees 2.33C
The Tesla uses a 375V battery to drive an 185kw motor at an overall 3.5C rating, each cell only sees 1/20th C for durability reasons. These are max power ratings, normal cruise will use a lot less.
Its pretty unlikely the Volts battery is divided into 3 parts and each part is used sequentially.. that would probably overheat (and shorten the life) the section in use. Its better for all the cells to share the load and age equally.
Aug 11th, 2010 (6:38 am)This may not get you there with a full battery, but if you put it in “mountain” mode when you arrive you will have more battery left on arrival. Then switch to standard mode and drive on battery (but don’t know how long).
Aug 11th, 2010 (6:46 am)Darn computer!.. anyways if GM used all 3 parts sequentially then each one would have to be rated for 21C to handle the full load of the motor, that is unlikely for a battery designed to last 15 years.
Aug 11th, 2010 (7:49 am)Which PHV Prius would that be? Converted one? Official Gen2 PHV or gen3 PHV?
It has already been confirmed in Gen3 PHV Prius with ScanGauge II that 65 MPH is the top EV speed.
Aug 11th, 2010 (7:56 am)There you go Tag.
If you were waiting on my answers then it looks like you’d be waiting on the wrong guy.
Of course, all of this is just pure ‘conjecture’ but I’m going to go with WOT’s ‘amateur’ analysis on this one.
(I think I’ve seen the series/parallel switching magic alluded to on the Leaf’s pack as well — but they don’t talk much about it either. I suppose all this is pretty much bleeding edge tech for the auto industry, and maybe you’d want a 63,000 sq ft battery lab to see how it all works out)
Aug 11th, 2010 (8:03 am)The occasional “deep dipping” into the pack for AER sounds like it’d be an ok deal without too much additional wear on the pack.
Still, my biggest concern would be if the additional capacity is being used for power fade. I could see the “dips” going much deeper and being an issue later in the pack life when there wasn’t as much extra capacity left to dip into. I’m guessing that this is the point where you would get some sort of “check battery” light and the car would go into a “limp mode” — not to come out again until you’d got some work done on the battery. (This would be the point where your resale value on the Volt takes a giant dump — not an issue if you’re leasing, I suppose)
Hopefully all the series/parallel switching magic would allow for a less expensive battery refurb at that point.
+2
Aug 11th, 2010 (8:09 am)Notice how that competition word keeps popping up, yet no one ever answered the market question?
Buyers of vehicles like CAMRY and COROLLA are the market, those consumers who will hopefully purchase a Prius next. They want well-proven technology for an affordable price.
More and more, it sounds like that is not the market for Volt. Since that’s where a bulk of the business-sustaining profit comes from for automakers, what future are you talking about?
Aug 11th, 2010 (8:38 am)Yes, definitely. You have some explaining to do why you said it is plain wrong!
Aug 11th, 2010 (9:12 am)Why do you continue to ignore the existence of a planetary gear-set and clutches in Volt’s drivetrain?
This has been confirmed by Rob Peterson.
http://gm-volt.com/2010/06/30/combustion-engine-does-not-and-will-not-turn-the-volts-driveshaft-ever-got-it/
-1
Aug 11th, 2010 (10:08 am)Volt does guzzle gas along with Coal. Please control your fanatic comment about yesterday and future technologies.
If you live in the present, HSD is the only proven viable technology that reduces gas consumption and emission at an affordable price.
The notion that more electric miles equal leapfrog is misguided. Saving a few gallon of gasoline at any cost with the hope of future price drop is based upon simply HOPE.
Aug 11th, 2010 (10:17 am)It is basically a hack. It simply disables EV mode and enable HV/CS mode. If Bob Lutz were around, he would never approve this hack.
Aug 11th, 2010 (10:18 am)People like me.
Aug 11th, 2010 (10:55 am)The article is 2.5 years old and it is outdated. It was written prior to Gen3 PHV Prius and even before Volt mule existed! This article compared Conventional, HEV, Conversion PHEV, Urban Capable PHEV and EREV. There is NO indication that the data came from Prius or PHV Prius.
It appears the data was actually from the Saturn Vue 2-Mode and the PHEV version of it. Fuel Consumption Reduction graph clear shows the HEV used in the test was sub-par. It pretty much shows how inferior 2-Mode hybrid and the PHEV version of it. Just look at it… PHEV version cut down fuel consumption by half. Toyota regular hybrid has been proven to do that with 50 MPG. PHV Prius should get around 75 MPG.
The article purely focused on US06 cycle. It is one of the SIX cycles SAE J1711 would be using. US06 covers 8 miles out of total 42 miles. It is simply showing where the Volt looks good and avoiding the entire picture. Talk about misguided information…
The article also noted that the data from GM’s PHEV hybrid were used to develop SAE J1711 standard. The document (below) from US DOE says the exact opposite. On page 19, the vehicle listed were mostly Priuses and no GM plugins.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/vehicles_and_systems_simulation/vss_05_duoba.pdf
Aug 11th, 2010 (11:00 am)Where in the article you linked said 80% less emission than Urban capable PHV hybrid?
Aug 11th, 2010 (11:01 am)LOL & LMAO — I think I heard several heads explode!
Aug 11th, 2010 (11:24 am)Where can you order a PHV Prius ? Ooops, you can’t. That’s why we like the Volt more.
Also, please note that Toyota is working on a PHV Prius only because GM went thru with the Volt. They said time and again they did not believe in the plug.
That’s why we like the Volt more.
Aug 11th, 2010 (11:33 am)And it’s been said in this forum, time and again, that it is easier to improve the carbon footprint of one electricity generating plant than to improve thousands or millions of cars. Not to mention other possible sources of electricity : Solar plants, nuclear, geothermic and so on.
As for the ‘ignorance really is bliss’ comment, I guess you were really talking about yourself.
Aug 11th, 2010 (11:38 am)Do you just want to plug in your car or do you want to reduce gas consumption and emission significantly? Depending on your goal, you can double or triple your MPG and reduce emission by 2x to 3x at an affordable price. You don’t have to wait and pay to beta test the upcoming product.
Don’t let the “hyped up to be perfect” be the enemy of the “proven to be good enough”. What do you drive now?
I don’t think Toyota said they did not believe in the plug. They said that the Lithium battery is not ready for the mass market yet. The price of the Volt indeed confirmed it.
Aug 11th, 2010 (11:42 am)We don’t have thousands or millions of EV or PHV cars yet. People have to buy them first and then you need to reduce carbon footprint of the plants. Two things need to happen instead of one.
Aug 12th, 2010 (2:27 pm)WopOnTour, if you feel it is off topic here, I invite you to PriusChat for your “dissection”. Let me know, I’ll create a thread and post a link.
Aug 17th, 2010 (2:27 pm)A patent for putting adding a reservoir and pump to occasionally add something to a primary tank? How lame is this?
Maybe GM should add fuel stablizer or something but a patent for it is hardly justifiable. This sort of nonsensical patent explains why lawyers who specialize in intellectual property make oodles of money.
Aug 17th, 2010 (3:23 pm)Someday, that may be true. As of the moment, two of the three biggest sellers on the road are Full Size Pickups. At $2.69 or so, no one cares about fuel economy.
And it’s obviouis that few people care about imported oil or energy security or Prius sales wouldn’t have dropped from about 19K to 14K for the month, year on year. Sure, it’s not an EV but it’s the best available tech to cut fuel consumption.