Along with pricing and ordering information, GM recently announced that fact that premium fuel will be required for the Volt. Although the engine-generator may be used on few or no occasions, it is designed for maximum efficiency. According to vehicle line director Tony Posawatz premium fuel allows the 4-cylinder engine to operate most efficiently, adding 10 to 15% more fuel economy than if regular gas were used. He notes that the additional cost of premium fuel would be almost exactly offset by the improvement in fuel economy.
Posawatz also explained that premium fuel would last longer before going stale, and issue for an engine that is rarely used.
A more recent report on Autoblog citing GM spokesperson Tom Read exposed that fact the the Volt’s engine also comes equipped with a knock sensor. The Volt’s 1.4L engine is calibrated for use with premium fuel meaning it uses extra spark advance to optimize effiecy. If, however, regular fuel is used, the knock sensor will detect it and adjust the spark advance to avoid engine damage. Thus in a pinch, though sub-optimal, the Volt could run opn regular gasoline.
“Premium fuel is required,” says GM spokesperson Rob Peterson. ”However, it will operate on regular gasoline in an emergency situation.”
Source (Autoblog)
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:21 am)Hope for you guys in Ohio. I found a press release from an Ohio dealer (about 20 miles from Pennsylvania also) claiming that the Volt would be available “later in 2010′). I posted a link to it in two of the forums (the dealer forum and the Volt news forum).
Woo Hoo!
So, what happens if we put E85 into the gas tank?
+7
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:28 am)Since Premium is sold everywhere Regular gas is sold, I wonder what situation
will put a person “in a pinch”.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:29 am)I really do think that the CS MPG is going to be quite impressive. And I suspect that the number itself varies a lot depending on factors such as city/highway and type of fuel. So, I’m guessing that if there is E85 in the tank and you are tooling along at 75 MPH then you probably will get less than 35 mpg. But I’ll also bet that if you are in the city with one person in the car with premium, I’m thinking just under 60 mpg.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:34 am)==================
I guess if you run out of gas in your driveway, and all you have is some old gas in a can for the mower…………..
Now I am going to check on that Ohio dealer!!!!
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:35 am)I’ve had plenty of cars that recommended premium and on occasion filled up with regular. Never had a problem. But these cars burned through the gas so quickly I barely had time to notice any performance difference. The volt is different and the gas can sit in your tank for a long time depending on your driving needs. Personally, with a volt, If I did have to fill up with regular and I knew it would be sitting a long time in the tank, I would fill up with premium once the tank was half full just to refresh the tank with the higher octane.
+7
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:36 am)I’ve gone to a station to fill up and they were out of premium.
+6
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:40 am)For several months post-Katrina, premium was very scarce in the Northeast…
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:57 am)Once in the seventies, during gas rationing, I was doing an Air National Guard weekend in Virginia, which had even-odd rationing (last number on license plate). I lived 200 miles away in NC, but couldn’t buy gas. On the other side of the airport, I found a FBO (general aviation filling station) that said he would sell me some 80 octane avgas. The car sounded like a diesel on acceleration, but it got me to NC where I could buy gas. Pinches happen, it’s nice to have options. I imagine if you put E85 in a Volt it would create a big mess, JohnK. Stop running, need to be flushed out, etc.
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:57 am)I drive less than 10 miles to work… I don’t really care what type of fuel I buy.
If your getting over 100mpg …. it’s not a big deal.
+7
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:19 am)Let’s face it folks; the Volt is gonna run on pure mojo. And that stuff is priceless.
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:24 am)Some cut rate gas stations only sell one grade.
Anybody know what the towing capacity of the Volt is?
+4
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:25 am)I just went to a station last week and they were sold out of Regular. I was ticked off because I had to buy Premium. Any product can run out. As long as the Volt is designed to operate on Regular in a pinch, it is no problem. And quite frankly, this design is yet another example of engineering excellence in this car.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:26 am)In Wisconsin, at least, there are a number of stations that don’t carry premium as it is not purchased much anymore. You can still find it easy enough around here and locally it is easy to know which stations do not have it. I suspect it is in case a person pulls up almost on empty and that station is the one that does not carry it.
+4
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:26 am)Should have bought moonshine as an octane booster.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:33 am)We have all kinds of E85 in Wisconsin. You will get less (25-30%) gas mileage with E85, but it is also subsidized and is about 20% less in cost here.
It could be used in a real pinch. But it will wreck various components of your engine over time. Alcohol can be very rough, so they used beefed up components for Flex/Fuel cars and trucks.
Its a funny little trick people do in Wisconsin… You borrow someones car and fill it up using E85 because its cheaper and they will never see the difference…. Unless they are real anal about keeping track of mileage. But then they get all confused and think they did their math wrong. Next time they fill up, it is back to normal!
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:37 am)Better to use premium to avoid stale gas issues since gas generator will hardly be used in EV mode..
GO EV!!!
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:45 am)I suppose it depend upon how you plan on using your Volt but I really don’t understand why some are so anxious about what the charge sustaining MPG is going to be. Do I want to know? Of course but my desire for a Volt is not going to be effected by it unless it is very low (50). Lets put it this way. If you had a pure EV and were stuck on the side of the road out of energy what MPG would you be satisfied with to get you home? Perhaps a bit of an unfair question but a legitimate one for all those Leaf owners. I bet they would look in envy at 4WD pickups zipping by and would gladly get 15mpg for the 5 or 10 miles more they needed!
But as I said in the beginning it depends upon your use. I would use mine as a fully functional 2nd vehicle. I most likely wouldn’t take it on long trips but also wouldn’t be afraid to take it outside of its electric range which could happen quite often as both myself and wife work about 17 miles from home which would almost use up entire range just commuting. Now add in a little after work shopping, pick up/drop off kids or errands that I occassionally run at work and you could easily run out of range quite often. And let us not forget winter and the decreased range that will bring…
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:46 am)Don’t know, but I’ll be amazed if towing doesn’t void the Volt’s warranty. Still, the Volt is pretty amazing …
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:47 am)I think the premium gas is used in an attempt to increase the CS fuel efficiency.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:47 am)I’d only want to put in a few gallons of regular – then fill it with premium later.
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:49 am)Odd, My previous post did not post correctly and it says I do not have permission to edit it. I reworded some greater than and less than symbols and replaced them with words maybe that was the problem. Here it is again.
I suppose it depends upon how you plan on using your Volt but I really don’t understand why some are so anxious about what the charge sustaining MPG is going to be. Do I want to know? Of course but my desire for a Volt is not going to be effected by it unless it is very low (less than 25) or very high (more than 50). Lets put it this way. If you had a pure EV and were stuck on the side of the road out of energy what MPG would you be satisfied with to get you home? Perhaps a bit of an unfair question but a legitimate one for all those Leaf owners. I bet they would look in envy at 4WD pickups zipping by and would gladly get 15mpg for the 5 or 10 miles more they needed!
But as I said in the beginning it depends upon your use. I would use mine as a fully functional 2nd vehicle. I most likely wouldn’t take it on long trips but also wouldn’t be afraid to take it outside of its electric range which could happen quite often as both myself and wife work about 17 miles from home which would almost use up entire range just commuting. Now add in a little after work shopping, pick up/drop off kids or errands that I occassionally run at work and you could easily run out of range quite often. And let us not forget winter and the decreased range that will bring…
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:50 am)If the Volt needs premium put premium in it! You don’t treat the greatest car in the world with anything less than the best. For some of us it is the last car we ever intend to buy.
-3
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:00 am)The Volt’s internal combustion range extender engine can run on regular gas anytime & all the time, it has knock sensors to offset the spark advance when regular gas is being used.
Message to GM:
Stop telling people that the Volt’s range extender can only be run on premium gasoline; we’re not falling for it and what you’re telling us is’nt exactly correct.
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:04 am)Ah, that takes me back. Remember when most of us here took “50 mpg” as the low end of CS-mode musings? Then, the Trolls did their work; first hammering “40s” then “30s” … and we just got a peek at “20s” in the last thread. Soon, they’ll have us believing that you’ll need a gas tanker driving behind you with a hose running directly into your Volt.
I personally think that Gen I will deliver CS-mode mpg in the low 50′s (with careful driving). Gen II or III may take it from there right off of the charts; with superior batteries (now in development) which can take more cycles, and smaller engines running over a narrower rpm range.
It’s true that official mpg is in the EPA’s court, and they don’t seem inclined to offer a separate number for cs-mode (which is what would make the most sense — but remember, this is the government we’re talking about).
Let me relate an experience which might shed additional light on GM’s apparent reluctance to provide this figure. In March of this year, several of us had an opportunity to test drive Volt prototypes at a media event in NYC. We got to speak to several engineering people close to the Volt project. Even then, CS-mode mpg was hotly anticipated, and we asked. The prospect of someone using the Volt primarily in this mode was obviously painful for them to contemplate; they clearly felt that the Volt’s first, best mission is to be used as has been constantly stated from the beginning: mostly as an electric, but with a gas assist. “Someone would spend a lot of money for [a Lithium Ion battery pack] if they never plugged it in.”
I think it is likely that CS-mode mpg may be so good that it will actually weaken what most of the engineers feel is the Volt’s main raison d’etre.
When the batteries mature (as described above), it is possible that an EREV20 version will be made available for less money. I think that it is this car which may be purchased more by people interested in running CS-mode most of the time; at a Prius-defeating mpg (you need a certain amount of battery to do the buffering required by CS-mode; if you have a battery that large, it makes no sense not to plug it in. I’d expect 20 miles AER would be close to the minimum required, or at least, the minimum that most people would bother plugging in to get).
We’ll find out the answer to the CS-mode mpg question one way or another; IMO there is as much evidence to support a higher number as a lower one.
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:06 am)OT, but if anyone in the northeast area is looking for a Volt, someone apparently had a slot they’re not using from a dealer in the NYC market area, and they’re auctioning it off…
I don’t remember the exact link, but if you go to ebay and search for “2011 Chevy Volt” it’ll pop up in the results.
Good to know that regular gas can be used in a pinch, but isn’t this typical of most engines? Can it use E-85 in a pinch?
join thE REVolution
+9
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:13 am)Guy, while you can run it on regular, using a knock sensor to prevent engine damage is like using a pregnancy test for birth control. By the time you know there is a ‘problem’ the thing you’re trying to avoid has already happened. That is to say, a single knock event can be enough to damage your engine. Cracked pistons and hammered con-rod bearings are the most common serious damage. The less-serious damage that occurs is material being blasted from the piston face.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:13 am)Dang. And here I thought you were just bein’ optimistic and junk.
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:16 am)It’s rare, but not out of the question for a gas station to only have one pump…and it’s NOT premium. I experienced this several times last summer on a cross country motorcycle trip from MI to CA. Most notably in ID and MT if I remember correctly. This was unfortunate for my buddy riding a Buell, which required premium gas. He was able to baby it to the next station. Since a computer is essentially “driving” the ICE in the Volt, a knock sensor is mandatory.
-6
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:25 am)” He notes that the additional cost of premium fuel would be almost exactly offset by the improvement in fuel economy.
A more recent report on Autoblog citing GM spokesperson Tom Read exposed that fact the the Volt’s engine also comes equipped with a knock sensor. The Volt’s 1.4L engine is calibrated for use with premium fuel meaning it uses extra spark advance to optimize effiecy. If, however, regular fuel is used, the knock sensor will detect it and adjust the spark advance to avoid engine damage.”
Based on above it makes no real sense to use premium fuel.
There is alcohol in both grades of gas so IMHO the “life” of fuel in the car will be the same. Looks like a dose of “sea Foam” will be needed if one drives < 40 miles a day a lot.
I plan to use this car as a primary vehicle ( at 41,000 plus) and will be using it for everything including LONG trips. I expect the VOLT to deliver in BEV and ERBEV mode.
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:32 am)I am concerned about the GM comments that are negative towards using the gas engine. To paraphrase: “If you aren’t going to plug it in, don’t buy this car.” I plan on using it for everything including the occasional 1000 mile round trip. If the ride is smooth like some people comment, it should make for good road trips. However, if the the gas range doesn’t approach the Prius, then I’ll have to think more carefully about this as a purchase.
Electric car good;
Milage rumors confound me;
Gas car not so good?
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:42 am)Typical son borrows the Volt for a date. Spends almost all of his money and drops off his date near the 40 mile mark.
Finds a gas station and buys….
regular gas.
Been there, scrounging the seats for gas money to get home, done that.
No doubt our kids will too!
+4
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:52 am)The volt is not ethanol friendly, which I think is terrific and ironic. The sooner ethanol dies, the better. The subsidized ethanol industry is a drain on the economy. Can’t anyone make a living without a federal government handout????
There are other viable alternatives to ethanol. Coal, Nuclear, & CNG on our shores!!!
I support EV because I detest supporting foreign muslim countries.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:05 am)The Chevy Cruse gets 40 mpg why would the Volt get less? With all the variables like mountain mode and home location detection fuel econ will be all over the map but how could it be less then 40 remember the ICE does not run continuously even on a 1000 mile trip with out plugging in.
Tom
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:07 am)10%, 20%, 85%? I can’t see using E85 as being a “Gotta Flush out my gas tank” event. If your components can take exposure to a 10% ethanol blend, the wheels aren’t gonna melt off the cart with E85. Worse case your sensors are gonna get confused and go into limp home mode.
I have been running E85 in my ’99 cavalier (245k miles) every now and then to reduce injector buildup. It seems to help — easier starts for a few tanks after.
Having said that, I would be worried about leaving a full tank of E85 sitting around because
I do have to change the fuel filter more often — the e85 seems to loosen crap in the gas tank — which has to go thru the fuel pump before getting caught in the filter. Still on my OEM fuel pump ‘tho.
If your owners manual says not to use E85 — then ftfm.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:18 am)Well.. call me cynical.. but it seems strange to me that we (here in the UK) are getting this car with E85 capability.. even though we have a total of about 15 E85 filling stations amongst a population of 60million people. In the USA where (in some states anyway) you have “a lot” of the stuff.. but GM build you a car that can’t use it? I’m left wondering if this is not about engine design at all.. more about policy. Here’s the link for those that are interested:
http://www.vauxhallampera.co.uk/vauxhall/#/home
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:22 am)I agree. I think GM’s Tony Posawatz would not still be saying publicly that he’s using 50 mpg as his assumption if it were unreasonably high. Further, let me posit the factors that I believe support a 50 mpg or higher CS mpg:
1 – The engine is tuned (valve timing, etc) for maximum efficiency at a few relatively-constant rpms; these design features alone might improve the Volt’s ICE from a typical efficiency of ~20% to perhaps ~30%
2 – The Volt’s ICE is capable of MUCH HIGHER horsepower than the average needed to achieve even 70mph —this means (thanks to the battery), that it could easily operate on a duty cycle as low as ~50%
3 – Taking a 50% gain in efficiency from #1 and another 50% gain from #2, I’d expect a VERY SIGNIFICANT (perhaps 100%) overall efficiency gain, enough to improve a typical 1.4L ICE’s 30mpg to 60mpg
Mind you, my assumptions in 1 & 2 are obviously guesses, but I consider them to be reasonable guesses for the Volt application.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:26 am)I think the OPOC engine could be the perfect powerplant for the generator. Far more compact in size than the current ICE, and with substantially better fuel economy for a given level of specified power. Worries of subpar gas economy would be solved.
+7
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:31 am)When I buy this $41k car, I am going to follow the General’s recommendations to the letter. GM built the thing so they should be the ones that know the maintenance intervals and the fluid specifications.
If it calls for premium, then use premium.
I wonder what the specifications are for engine oil? I am hoping they go with synthetic with a long drain interval (like once a year).
I’m surprised that there hasn’t been a leak about manuals and such. They have got to be doing dealer training and the owner’s manual needs to be uploaded to the on-board computer. (I doubt they will use a paper manual.) There’s not a lot of time left.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:35 am)Well it’s hard to compare the two. But it’s the closest you will get for comparison. The Cruze ECO does get 40mpg hwy. The Volt will be about 500lbs heavier than the Cruze so that will hurt. The Cruze uses a turbocharged version of the same 1.4L engine the Volt uses so that will help the Volts cause. I think your estimate of 40MPG is not bad. I think that beacuse the 1.4L can be tuned for average demand we might even see a little better than 40MPG.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:37 am)From what I understand all modern cars have components that will handle both E10 and E85 without signifigant long term damage. The factory E85 kits likely beef up some components anyway, but many normal cars have been running E85 conversions for years without trouble. The real issue is the fuel injectors and mapping. Since ethanol is less energy dense, you need to inject more of the stuff into the cylinder to get the smae amount of power. All fuel injected cars have the ability to adjust the amount of fuel injected, within boundaries set by the engine management computer. The problem is that the boundaries are typically not wide enough to accomidate E85. My VW, for example, will tolerate up to about E30 before the engine starts to protest. Thus, if you are just topping off the tank with E85, your engine will likely be able to compensate, but if youre putting a full tank in, likely not. The aftermarket kits for converting to E85 simply adjust the fuel injector signal to leave the injector open a bit longer based on a predetermined curve. This just shifts the car’s normal range of adjustment up into the range needed for E85, so the computer can further handle minor variations and adjustments.
The short answer is, unless you install an aftermarket E85 kit, then no, the Volt will not like to run on tankfulls of E85. If you just top up the last quarter of the tank with E85, it will likely have enough adjustment available to compinsate.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:37 am)I don’t think E85 would be much of an issue short term. Performance might not be great but I don’t think it would just quit like it would if you filled it with diesel.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:38 am)I’m still in the “pool” for CS = 50, but wondering more and more if it won’t be sub-50. For *ME* it’s moot point because of my driving needs fitting the AER, but I do worry that “the folks” will see the price coupled with a sub-Prius mpg and head elsewhere. Others here think that people will actually “do the math”. I hope that they are right.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:45 am)340 mile range.
People more positive here.
Was this a lowball?
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:52 am)I fear this is yet another place where GM shoots themselves in the foot.
I predict 30 MPG and I think 340 is close to accurate when the battery and gas tank are empty.
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:02 am)Anything over 40 CS is outstanding considering the performance and comfort of the Volt. Sticking with a guess of 42 CS highway. Still wondering if GM will use the sleek aero mirrors seen on several car show Volts. These are an awesome styling upgrade.
Just a few more months and the Volt demo cars will be in dealerships. It’s a good bet these are pre-production Volts. And therefore, not for sale. Taking the “I’ll buy this car right now” pressure off of the dealers.
=D-Volt
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:10 am)Ahhh, not a great idea to run E85 in a car not designed for it. The corrosion issues are nothing compared to running your engine lean and melting your pistons. E85 has a stoich ratio of about 10:1. Gasoline is ~14:1. This means that with E85, your injectors need to add more fuel for each combustion cycle. Your O2 sensors will read a lean condition, the computer will hold the injector open longer in the next cycle, etc, but most fuel systems are not designed to compensate to this degree. Even if your vehicle does compensate correctly in “closed loop” mode, your car will be WAY lean at wide open throttle. At WOT, the car simply goes to a lookup table and does not read the O2 sensors. It’s a good idea to understand how things work before you F#ck with them.
Good luck.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:13 am)I think you’re right on this but do you have a reference? Or was it something he said to you in NY? I just haven’t see this anywhere.
GM is still saying 300 miles after the car goes into CS Mode, so the 340 mile total range has to be a given. 30 MPG seems low given what we know.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:17 am)Wow. Ads on the home page that GM is hiring engineers. Cool.
-2
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:19 am)Because the mechanical connection at highway speeds is more efficient, that’s why.
Put both together and drive them at 70 mph in CS and the Cruise will get better fuel mileage, just as expected by those who know (or care) about energy transitions.
Again, who cares? The Volt is mostly for city driving and it will get the better mileage than any ICE in the world for many drivers (as long as they don’t live too far away from work). If you do, get a diesel.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:23 am)I have to think people don’t want to use premium because it costs more. My car “requires” premium. In fact I think all BMWs do. It’s a performance thing. But I’ve never had, and I’ve never heard of anyone else having, a problem filling a car that requires premium with regular. The only time I fill with premium is before the pollution tests because it can help there. I certainly understand GM wanting to use premium in order to help with the CAFE numbers but I doubt putting regular in the tank for whatever reason will be a big problem.
On the other hand, if most driving is in CD Mode it can’t be a big deal from a cost standpoint. If you’re using a gallon a week can it matter if gas is either $3 or $5 a gallon? This isn’t the case with some other cars BTW. One knock on the Smart is that it requires premium, which to me is salient because the Smart is supposed to be a small car that is economical to drive, and requiring premium does seem to negate that.
-8
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:24 am)50?! Are you crazy or just very optimistic? No way on earth will it get 50 mpg (70 mph, CS, flat highway – both ways averaged, regular fuel). No way. Impossible. Even with hope and massive optimism.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:25 am)I agree that the performance and comfort are outstanding, but GM needs to get some butts in the seats for people to start spreading the good news. I’m just saying that a “low” CS mpg could short-circuit that process a bit. I guess it’s moot with the low production #’s in year #1.
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:25 am)“bookdabook”: However, if the the gas range doesn’t approach the Prius, then I’ll have to think more carefully about this as a purchase.
#44 Rashiid Amul Says
I fear this is yet another place where GM shoots themselves in the foot.
I predict 30 MPG and I think 340 is close to accurate when the battery and gas tank are empty.”
****
This would be a sad thing if true. In a lot of ways the VOLT is competing with the Prius.
A high MPG after the 40 mile electric charge is almost a must.
The name of the game is to use as little gas as possible when traveling — short or long distances…
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:28 am)The Cruze gets up to 40 MPG when the ICE is powering the wheels. In the VOLT, that same engine is turning a generator, not the wheels. So the question is: How much electricity does the generator make using 9 gallons of gas? Isn’t that the right way to look at it? If not, Why?
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:29 am)LOL, you omitted “PRAYER”. How does it hurt you, if I’m disappointed? BTW, crazy and optimistic are not mutually exclusive sets (I can be both).
Stay tuned!
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:33 am)Isn’t this the same engine that will be used in the Cruze? If that be the case then I’d imagine it’ll be just fine to run plain ole’ 87 octane. I’ve only known one person who owned a car that had to have premium to run right: a friend with an 82′ Mazda 287Z with a rotary engine. The car would sputter on regular.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:39 am)Just to remind you… the Volt was designed for flex fuel and then GM backed off of the E85 support fairly recently (well, it seems recently to me).
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:44 am)Respectfully, I have to chime in on this one.
People currently shop for the best ‘gasoline-powered’ car that fits their needs and budget. If I have a Honda Civic sized budget, I don’t stroll over to the Porsche dealer to see if I can get one of those for the same price. The same will happen with Hybrids/Electrics.
The Toyota Prius, Chevrolet VOLT, Tesla S, Lexus HS250h, Nissan Altima hybrid, Honda Insight, and all of the rest have differing prices and benefits, therefor different demographics.
Now, if all of these makes offer the same $350 per month Lease program, THEN you have some competition going! Which one would you guys choose in that scenario?
-5
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:47 am)“Premium fuel is required,” says GM spokesperson Rob Peterson.
Note, he did not say Premium fuel is recommended. Will it void the warranty if you use regular gas during an emergency?
+6
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:52 am)I disagree. Electronic controls can be much more efficient than physical transmissions. And the ICE in the Volt (which we know precious little about) can be optimized for a very few sweet spots. In fact the ICE in the Volt can have quite a few subtle differences, for instance it has only a single belt. There is no need for belts to drive power steering, an alternator, and no starter motor (OK that is disengaged and not connected to the motor while running in a regular engine). No belt to A/C compressor.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:53 am)How much load does the generator place on the ICE? I believe the important number is ICE RPM. Example: The Cruze may need 3200 RPM to maintain 70 MPH with a direct connection to the front wheels. The Volt generator may require just 2900 RPM at 70 MPH. It’s a different animal all together. Guess we’ll need to wait a bit more.
3200 (RPM Cruze) X 70 (MPH) = 224000
224000 / 2900 (RPM Volt ICE) = 77 MPH (at the same MPG as the Cruze at 70 MPH)
or
3200 (RPM Cruze at 70 MPH) X 39 (MPG Cruze) = 124800
124800 / 2900 (RPM Volt ICE) = 43 MPG (Volt CS)
Oh, the drama…
=D-Volt
-2
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:09 am)CS mode can be in either City or Highway. Which were you referring to?
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:12 am)Exactly what I was trying to say, but much better put. Thanks.
I concur, better to understand first and avoid potential lean lean burn conditions.
While most cars have enough excess injector capacity to allow the aftermarket E85 systems to operate well enough, and most materials used in cars today are ethanol resistant enough to survive years with E85, I expect the OEM systems will use bigger injectors and more robust materials in key areas as well as remapping the injectors and allowing for more leeway to adjust fuel. Hence the increase in cost, since it’s not just a software adjustment. Some have used alcohol sensors as well, though I believe some OEMs have gone away from requiring them.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:18 am)Leaf Dealers all ready offering MSRP Discounts:
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/08/09/dealer-offers-leafs-for-1000-under-msrp/
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:28 am)Sorry Don, I can’t find a link, which makes me wonder if Lyle (or another site owner) might have been asked to delete Tony’s remark. However, I distinctly recall it was during the July “Freedom Drive” at a stop when someone asked him for the CS mpg number. Tony was quoted as saying something to the effect that they have to wait for the EPA on this, but added that he’s still using 50 mpg.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:29 am)It’s a dagger in my heart, every time somebody I like and respect, uses this expression…
+12
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:31 am)Sweet flaming Jebus, people! Just put Premium in the tank and let’s get on with our lives.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:31 am)Recently in my area, there was a shortage of regular gas for one company so they decided to offer premium gas at the same price as regular gas to not loose the customers to a different retailer. I guess the reverse situation (no premium, only regular) could happen once in a blue moon.
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:33 am)There was a development update on April 12th in which Andrew Farah seemed quite comfortable tossing out the number 50. Lyle posted this April 13th:
50 MPG Still on Target
For three years we’ve conjectured about what the Volt’s miles per gallon in charge sustaining mode will turn out to be.
The team was again asked this question. Farah explained the team is still using the original 2007 concept’s goal of 50 mpg, and for the first time provided a clue as to how it will turn out.
“I still use the target of 50 MPG as the bogey,” said Farah. “So far I haven’t been disappointed.”
He clarified that the 50 MPG target is unadjusted, and that the official number will be “released closer to production.” Fuel tank size remains a secret, but the official spec at this point is 300 miles of range on a full tank of gas in charge sustaining mode, starting after the 40 miles of battery electric range.
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:34 am)Sorry, I was just referring to the soap opera tenor that things have taken.
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:35 am)The first half of your sentence explains it all. The original volt concept was supposed to be all things to all people. With a CS of 50 MPG or better it would be. If the CS is in the low 30s or heaven forbid in the high 20s then the Volt will not be the car for people that drive a lot of miles every day. So knowing the CS MPG determines if the Volt is the right car to buy for many people. Maybe it doesn’t make a difference to YOU, but to many of us it does make a difference.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:38 am)GM has alluded to other ways of dealing with the stale gas issue besides using premium gas. But the details about this have not been published as far as I know.
Well, most people would not be keen to visit a GM Service Center every time they needed to replace stale gas. So, I can only conclude that the Volt control system is designed to completely burn a tank of gas at some fixed frequency, say every 3 months. This is consistent with previous GM statements that the ICE will be “exercised” occasionally if the car rarely operates in CS mode.
This will somewhat complicate efforts to make definitive statements about electricity and gasoline efficiencies in the various modes of operation. Maybe that’s part of the problem around finalizing and publishing the Volt’s numbers.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:41 am)As big as I am on the Volt, I don’t remember ever thinking that it’d be “all things to all people”. There was always a group of people I’d be telling that “The Volt just isn’t for you”. Might be my memory playing tricks.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:42 am)No worries Tag, I’m just having a heck of a week here.
YES, on Monday already! X-d
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:47 am)Thanks for this reference. Having spent a little time face-to-face with both Tony & Andrew, I believe they work very closely and agree on CS being 50 mpg. So for the present, I’m hopeful that —irrespective of tank size and references to a 340 mi range— GM in this case will deliver 50 mpg. And I believe it’s technically plausible; for my explanation, see my earlier post #36.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:51 am)Maybe it was just me… if the initial promise of CS 50 mpg were true the Volt would be a Prius and Leaf killer, (not that they are even in the same class).
I am a huge Volt fan, but I’m afraid it’s target audience is going to be a somewhat more limited than my initial enthusiast assumption. If the CS mpg is in the low 30s people like me, that live in large sprawling cities that regularly drive hundreds of miles in a single day are going to find the Volt disappointing.
Given the cost differential of the Volt, the Cruse is looking like the better choice for me. If enough people fall into my situation the Volt could be viewed as a failure. I don’t want the Volt to fail and obviously neither does GM. In my opinion that is why we don’t have a CS number from GM. I feel it will be disappointingly low to some of us.
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:00 pm)LOL, this too shall pass. Before you know it, it’ll be Tuesday! (g). In the greater scheme of things, it’s all small stuff!
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:10 pm)I hear what you’re saying (and gave you a +1) but if the Volt’s tank is 9 gallons the low fuel light will come on well before you’ve used 9 gallons. My car has the low gas light come on @ 50 litres of a 62 litre tank or ~80% capacity so I’d expect the Volt to light up ~7.2 gallons.
+4
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:12 pm)At the NYC drive presentation, I had the distinct feeling that the focus (no pun) was to sell the Cruise. That’s when the clouds started gathering for me. I do still think that the Volt will be a stunning success, selling every one of those made, but that the “everyman’s version” won’t see daylight until at least Gen II. To me, that’s a huge disappointment. I guess, contrary to popular opinion, GM doesn’t exist to meet my desires or expectations (d@mn it).
At the very least, the Volt has gotten the boulder to the top of the hill, and started back down the other side. Electrification (to me) seems inevitable now, and that sure wasn’t the case 4 years ago. Again, one man’s efforts (Lyle) CAN make a huge difference! JMO (as always).
I’m a pretty patient guy, so I still hope to own a Volt someday (God willing).
Be well,
Tagamet
-1
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:20 pm)Wait a sec. The computer adjusts for grade. Obviously premium vs regular is transparent to the engine. A quick ref to Wikipedia to check my recall … as I have researched this issue before … is that gasoline properly stored is very stable. (From experience with long term fuel storage of 100+ gal. tanks in diesel-powered small boats.) Then again if there is a bit of sludge, just run the engine. And VOLT with its small 9 gal tank. GM’s dilemma is VOLT must use premium to achieve its very best possible EPA rating.
What EPA knows is after VOLT comes a whole bunch of look-a-likes. The answer being EPA needs to include brand AND denote (if appropriate as with VOLT) MPG for both regular and premium grades.
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:21 pm)So many Volts on the road that Stations run out of Premium gas?
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:31 pm)Exactly. Why would you mess with your 41K car for a couple of pennies a gallon, every now and then ?
I had a Volks Golf ’92 a few years back and premium was required. Annoying a bit but you get used to it.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:33 pm)I thought the 9 gallon tank was fixed in stone. It’s not?
http://gm-volt.com/2010/06/28/report-chevrolet-volt-gas-tank-is-9-gallons/
-3
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:36 pm)WOW That was quick. Not good for the Leaf that they already need to cut the price to move them.
They can spin this anyway they want but no dealer cuts the price if they have people in line for a car.
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:37 pm)AFAIK, 9 gallon was the speculation.
Be well,
Tagamet
-1
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:41 pm)Stupid and wasteful anachronism these gas-powered engines. Full electric is all I would ever consider!
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:42 pm)Hey, I really like the Green Bay Packers — but I’ve always though people from Wisconsin were a bit odd…. ??? !!!
RECHARGE!
James
Or should I say…”cheesy”….?
One of my favorite Wisconsin stories was in the 90′s a Packer fan/private pilot was flying his plane to the Superbowl when his engine quit and he had to crash land. Emergency personnel at the crash site said the crash could have been fatal, but it appeared severe head injury was avoided because the pilot was wearing his cheesehead at the time of impact! L
L ( True story, by the way )
-4
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:51 pm)What do we know?
40 MPC
9 gallon tank.
340 mile total range.
(340-40)/9 = 33.3333333333333333
So 30 MPG is a little low but certainly in the ballpark.
Sadly. For me, this car is one disappointment after another.
No E85
Lame overall range.
Poor “whole car” warranty.
Very expensive
I’m just waiting for the next disappointment.
I know, I know. -1 for me.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:53 pm)Well, good for you!
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:58 pm)I agree, but I think the MPG will be calculated on the full tank. That would be be more ‘real world’.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:08 pm)Where did the idea come from that CS mode must be tested at 70mph?
I don’t believe the EPA highway cycle comes anywhere near 70mph. The EPA sticker will be the way that people compare the cars; not some ‘test’ using non-recommended (regular) fuel and driving at a high sustained speed.
Also, EPA cycles are preformed on a dyno, not on the open road. Therefore aero and road drag aren’t counted until they apply their fudge-factors to make the sticker closer to what actual drivers will do.
To me, the whole concept of using mpg to rate an electric (mostly) car is absurd.
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:14 pm)If you drive less than 40 miles per day, the Volt is “full electric”.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:25 pm)James,
As a lifelong resident of WI (40 years, less four years off to college) I can safely say that you are FAR underestimating Wisconsinites.
No WAY should we be described as only a “bit” odd. Most of us are full-scale wackos.
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:28 pm)Starcast Says
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:36 pm)
block quote
KUD
: Leaf Dealers all ready offering MSRP Discounts:
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/08/09/dealer-offers-leafs-for-1000-under-msrp/
(Quote)
block quote end
WOW That was quick. Not good for the Leaf that they already need to cut the price to move them.
They can spin this anyway they want but no dealer cuts the price if they have people in line for a car.
(Quote)
If you don’t know the reasons behind this news, please don’t spread fud. Nissan has put the power in the hands of the customer by allocating the Leaf to each customer who contracts for one. It is not a matter of Dealers having a few cars available and therefore charging whatever they can get, it is a customer who has an allocation for a car and wants to find a Dealer who wants to fill that order the most. So far 2 CA Dealers have indicated below MSRP to get more customers with their allocations already in hand and make more profit by selling more cars and probably getting long term customers as well. Hope this explanation clears this up for you.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:35 pm)It’s often unwise to attribute motives. When I read your post, it sounded to me like a “customer” wanted to turn a profit. A bit like scalping tickets at a football game, on the second read, I may have it backwards.
I’m not a big fan of Dealer markups, but it’s not hard to understand a profit motive (short-sighted as it may be).
JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:37 pm)I crunched some numbers a couple days back that take into account aero drag, rolling resistance, curb weight, electrical transfer/charging/discharging efficiencies and came up with 37.3 mpg in CS mode at highway speeds. This is at steady state cruising and is based on the fuel required to supply the necessary hp at this speed. This is very close to what I would have guessed by just taking Cruze mpg and decreasing the efficiency of the powertrain.
Interestingly, at 60 mph…I calculated nearly 50 mpg. So, as expected, the CS mpg rating moves around a LOT depending on the speed at which the car is driving.
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:40 pm)You missed the whole point of the JohnK’s comparison! On the Cruze, the engine must mechanically drive the wheels on the road, thereby limiting the efficiency. While, on the Volt, the engine only drives the generator. The vehicle weight is a factor when considering the Cruze but not the Volt which is driven by an electric motor. On the Volt, the ICE can run in its sweet spot and doesn’t have a huge load since it is driving a very light load in the genereator. The energy to drive a generator is far less than driving four wheels on the road.
Since a fully taxed engine of an ICE like the Cruze gets 40 MPG on average, a lower limit to the CS MPG is set; since the load on the Volt ICE is far less, there should be significant improvement in efficiency. Far better than what you claim – “we might even see a little better than 40MPG”.
Along time ago, I posted here my opinion that we will see an MPHG on the Volt ICE from 50 – 60 . As of today, I believe it will be above 55 MPG.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:42 pm)
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:48 pm)Thanks for trying.
Thanks very much for the cite. 50 MPG would be great. And maybe Tag isn’t as optimistic as I’ve been thinking on this one.
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:51 pm)Hahaha…
Hey Mike. I actually love Wisconsin, and I eat lots of cheese.
Just being facetious on this non-Volt-news day. I did, however date this girl from Wisconsin – she was a total sweetheart. She did, however have this one tick – she actually re-arranged her furniture nearly every single day! I’d walk into her apartment and trip over the couch because the day before, it was a plant stand! The game of “find the TV” was fun though.
I know, I know, OCD is not a geographic trait — ha — but ya gotta admit Jimza Skeptic’s post was out there – and Mike, you can’t tell me you sneak E85 into people’s cars as a big yuk yuk!
RECHARGE!
James
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:53 pm)If it’s actually a nine gallon tank. That was one statement based on what they thought someone from GM had said. We’re in something of a fog where there are lots of bits of info. I just wish GM would release the number. Hopefully we’ll have this soon.
I was in the camp of 33.33 MPG but the statements by Adrew Farah cited above are making me reconsider.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:54 pm)Hey Tag, When I read Starcast’s post, he indicated that Nissan Dealers were having to lower the price to below MSRP just to be able to move them. This is not the reason these 2 Dealers are lowering their price. These 2 Deallers are lowering their price to get more customers and make more profit threw volume instead and hopefully get long term customers by giving them a better price. This has nothing to do with scalping.
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:56 pm)Tagamet isn’t crazy. He has faith!
Now gather this in. If the Cruze gets 40MPG, and its ICE must contend with mechanical and frictional loses from the cylinders to the wheels to the road, and the Volt’s ICE must only contend with the mechanical losses of the generator and the EMF to generate electricity, then 50 MPG is not unthinkable. In an earlier post today, I stated my belief that it will be >55 MPG.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:04 pm)I termed it “faith”, Tag. Faith and prayer do go hand in hand.
I still hold to my original opinion that it will be from 50- 60 MPG more likely over 55. See my previous posts today for my reasoning.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:09 pm)hehe, well, I wouldn’t plan to run any car to actual 0 left in a tank let alone having a family on board on a longer trip and try to do that. When the gas light comes on, I fill ‘er up.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:09 pm)Why would anyone even consider staying with internal combustion engines given the chance at better technologies to cut all costs. ICE technology is ancient and inefficient, most autos at less than 12% efficient with too many parts to function. There are a few good examples of full electrics around that we should emulate, not tie in with the oil companies and out-dated tech. But I guess you people would rather hold onto the past, perhaps you would rather have PCs with vacuum tubes and fill a room with oversized backward parts.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:10 pm)Fun fact, California actually makes more cheese than Whiz-consin does. Yet nobody calls them cheeseheads. It probably helps that they don’t have big foam cheese-wedge hats on at their sporting events!
As for E-85, I have a flex-fuel Sierra, and the price-mileage ratio has never once, to my knowledge, been superior to that of E10 gasoline, which is “regular” gasoline around here. Factor in more frequent fill-ups, and that I’m no big fan of fuel subsidies (or crop-based fuels, for that matter), and I simply don’t use E85 often in my truck. This, despite the fact that it’s commonly available in my area. I’m not sad at all that Volt mk.1 will not use E85.
But, by all means, bring on the cellulosic ethanol, bioethanol or algenol, or even biodiesel… at the right price… and I’ll think it over again.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to go bandage my toe, which I’ve just stubbed on the sofa. It was not where I expected it to be.
Ninja Edit Disclaimer: I just reworded myself for clarity.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:11 pm)I believe it was made by one of the Vancouver (Canada) EV clubs members who test drove a Volt mule. It probably did have a nine gallon tank as stated but the total range on a tank of gas was not stated. Lets not mix apples with oranges.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:18 pm)I have a new Corvette and I put regular in it…so I’m not surprised the Volt will. The manual for the Corvette says premium is preferred and it can also burn regular…… and the manual does not say only in a pinch. I now have 14k miles on it and has run perfectly with regular gas.
What I’m really anxious to find out is what gas mileage the Volt will have in the ICE mode!
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:19 pm)GM will never, ever, ever release a pure CS mode mpg for Volt. They don’t have to and they won’t do it. GM needs some sort of mpg to calculate their CAFE and have some bragging rights. They don’t need to reveal their intellectual property (their internal test data) to make it happen.
We will get the EPA sticker (if even that) and that will be all. GM is done after that.
It’s up to the people purchasing the Volt to research the car’s real-world mpg. Numbers will be published about all the test cycles in all the automotive magazines and sites.
Then there will be a big stink about how real-world doesn’t match the EPA rating (as usual). In this case, though, the EPA rating will be way too low. imho.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:24 pm)Not to be pedantic, but from what I understand, “regular” gasoline is quite heavily subsidized.
At least with E85, you have the satisfaction of knowing that your hard earned dollars are staying home, and that you are helping to fund the market that is driving recearch into more advanced biofuels. Oh, and the fact that it burns cleaner, so air pollution is being reduced. I believe that ehanol from corn is produced using the normally wasted core of the corn, so the protien and oil products remain harvestable as well. It’s not an either/or food/fuel equation. You get both. The type of corn used is not food corn anyway, at least not for humans.
I wish there was more E85 available where I live.
Sorry to hear about your toe. I’m sure we’ve all been there.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:27 pm)I do agree that E85 is not without its good points as well. I just personally prefer E10.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:35 pm)The type of corn or what it’s end use is doesn’t matter. We are using land capable of growing food for growing a replacement for gasoline.
And the pollution needs to encompass the entire process. They use diesel tractors and oil-based fertilizer to grow this corn. The fertilizers are killing the Mississippi delta and the Gulf-of-Mexico has a big dead zone because of all these chemicals.
I’m all for bio-fuels, but, they need to make sense through the entire life-cycle.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:41 pm)All cars ‘range’ are calculated using their full tank. It’s advertising not reality.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:45 pm)Fair enough.
Aug 9th, 2010 (2:52 pm)The point was that the land is used for growing fuel in addition to food (protien and oil).
I agree about the life cycle argument, but that also needs to be weighed against the life cycle of producing petroleum gasoline, which is signifigantly worse. There is no such thing as a perfect solution, just better compromises. In my mind, ethanol remains a better compromise than petroleum gasoline. As the technology for producing biofuels advances, the argument can be made even better.
Aug 9th, 2010 (3:21 pm)Methinks you meant to say “range” will be calculated based on a full tank. (Mpg will obviously be unaffected by existing fuel volume)
PS> Is your sales manager still maintaining a $2K dealer premium on Volt sales, or is this becoming a “moving target” given some of the publicity? Just wondering.
Thanks
WOT
WopOnTour
EDIT> Also, I wonder why Lyle continues to use the Cruze turbo 1.4L artwork when there is an available graphic of the Volt’s natually aspirated 1.4L mill (RPO:LUU) available on the media.gm.com site?
Aug 9th, 2010 (3:25 pm)Awesome post! +10
WOT
-1
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:04 pm)Well, I have taken more orders than our allocation. So, for now I think the big boss will just ‘hold’ at $2,000 until he can gauge the reaction at launch in November. I’m just reporting, so don’t kill the messenger.
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:06 pm)I messed up on my terminology.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:08 pm)I take “in a pinch” here to mean either: 1) there are shortages of premium gas available in some locations (rare); 2) some folks short on cash try to save a few bucks by occasionally using regular gas instead; or 3) some folks, perhaps careless or in a hurry and/or just not too bright, put in regular gas by mistake and then only realize it later (or were not informed properly in the first place about the need to use premium).
In any case, it’s good to know that the range-extending engine can handle both types of gasoline. Now let’s see the 2012 or ’13 Volts come out which can handle the E85 biofuel mixture.
As for the Volt’s mpg in CS mode, I don’t care too much about how, where, or when it’s reported in the media, just that the mileage steadily improves through the Gen II, III, and IV versions.
Regards, George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!!
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:10 pm)I read a report regarding 2010 Camaro models with LS3 engine that if you put Regular gas in it, the sensors will adjust timing, etc… but when you put your next tank of Premium back into it, the sensors ‘may not’ re-adjust back to the higher performance setting. If you are driving a 2010 Corvette with LS3, have your local Service Advisor to check it. It can be reset at the dealership.
-1
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:21 pm)CS mode may be irrelevant for many people (CD mode is the POINT of an EV!) but I think if there is a low CS # people will say ‘it ONLY gets 33mpg’ and then will buy a Cruise or Prius.
My hope is 55mpg, and my hope is that GM has been holding that back on purpose, low balling with 50mpg.
Wasn’t there someone who rev-engineered CS from 230?
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:22 pm)Thanks LRGV! Again, not mutually exclusive sets (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:28 pm)Lyle, can you please find out more about this?
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:30 pm)Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it!
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:38 pm)I had read somewhere (this blog?) that the ICE would automatically be “exercised” once a year if there was any fuel in the tank still kicking around. However, I can’t remember where I read it. This is something perhaps that could be clarified.
Sincerely, George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!!
+5
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:40 pm)If you can afford the VOLT, then you can afford premium.
Higher priced fuel will encourage the driver to PLUG IT IN daily!
Aug 9th, 2010 (4:48 pm)You are probably right.
But as I explained earlier, for some of us we are not going to purchase the Volt without that piece of information.
I’m glad there are people that are willing to buy the Volt sight unseen, without a test drive, and without know some basic facts about how it’s built and how it operates. I will wait patiently until the real world data materializes.
Aug 9th, 2010 (5:09 pm)The interval is one year. Heard this at the Chevy dealership. Not sure if this means an check engine light or an OnStar remote start of the ICE. This shouldn’t be an issue. Everyone is aware that running the ICE for 20 minutes each 2 months is a wise thing to do.
=D-Volt
Aug 9th, 2010 (5:52 pm)#126 Tagamet Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it!
I don’t allways express my thoughts as well as I’d like. I am an EV advocate, and not exclusively to one manufacturer, so if I can speak up and defend an EV, I will.
In Tucson 91 octane is our premium, in the Houston area they have 93 octane. Does anyone know what the lowest octane gas is considered for premium?
-4
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:28 pm)A trusted mechanic once told me, premium gas is a scam, you don’t need it. Ive never bought it since.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:56 pm)Consumer Reports test the VOLT on their test track. GM brought the car to Consumer Reports to do the testing. The video report was posted here a while back. i have seen a printed report from this guy that states a 9 gallon tank. GM did not refute the claim.
GM gave the car a petty good review, but said they would do a normal test with a car purchased from a dealer when available. Consumer Reports will then test per their normal protocol.
Here is the link.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joAdSRa6k0A
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:58 pm)ECON 101
Limited Supply + High Demand = High Price. Which BTW, leads to increased production and eventually, increased supply! It’s all good, just have to be patient.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:17 pm)I hate to be the skunk at the picnic tonight but I would disagree on this. At greater than 55 mpg, the Volt would be the best hybrid on the road and that is not its mission just yet. It is an electric car 1st and hybrid second.
Considering the Cruze. GM will have this fairly optimized to get the highway mpg values up. The engine will be at high efficiency. The 40mpg model has the same low resistance tires as the Volt, Engine speed and gearing will be well thought out at highway cruising. They want a high mpg number to brag about. I don’t see large differences in the engine and the wheel losses at highway speeds. Those will be similar. The question is, what is more efficient in between the engine and the wheels.
Motor Shaft output >> Transmission >> drive shafts for Cruze
Motor Shaft output >> Generator >> Electric Motor >>drive shafts for Volt
I just cannot imagine that Volt Version 1.0 has the old mechanical linkage beat at this point. If it does, it should not be by much.
I would guess at CS mpg in the 35-40 range. This is my uninformed engineering judgment, nothing more. I just don’t worry about the range extender mode also competing with the best hybrids on the road. I cannot see CS mode being that optimized right now.
For now, I will be happy with the fact that the Volt will use no gas for most of the time.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:40 pm)100% on target. The use of corn to make ethanol is a bad idea. DaveG (where are you???) would tell you all the new cellulistic feedstocks available to produce biofuels in a more responsible and effective manner.
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:48 pm)Given a nine gallon fuel tank and three hundred mile CS mode range, we arrive at thirty three miles per gallon.
Given six thousand miles driven in a year at less than forty miles per day, no gas used and given six thousand miles driven in the same year at much greater than forty miles per day at thirty three miles per gallon we arrive at one hundred eighty one gallons of fuel burned. So, one hundred eighty one gallons of fuel in twelve thousand miles of driving we arrive at sixty six miles per gallon for a year. I accept this to be a reasonable estimate for my purposes. I could do no worse and may do better.
CS mileage is important and perhaps could be improved by using duty cycle operation of the engine at a high work load and constant RPM to replenish the battery when driving long distances.
Still, sixty six miles per gallon effective is better than the MPG of a Prius.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:02 pm)I think you left out an important stage:
Motor Shaft output >> Generator >> Inverter >> Electric Motor >>drive shafts for Volt
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:10 pm)Thanks, Good point.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:13 pm)Not much work for the Hall Monitor today (g). Life is good.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:26 pm)I’m pretty sure the Ice turns on twice a month at a minimum. If your driving pattern results in no use of the ICE it will “exercise” every two weeks. I’m not sure how long it will run for though. Lyle for sure knows this information
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:35 pm)Tag,
Maybe you should make a stop over at Statiks site. I may have lit off a hornets nest, but nothing I would not be willing to post here. Just more facts and questions.
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:35 pm)New blood is needed to expand the Volt team, no doubt.
The Volt is being touted as an electric car to drive anywhere and still gets 50 mpg AS A BACKUP!
At the weight of the Volt, that number spits in the eye of every ICE engineer out there.
What would GM be looking for in the resume for these people?
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:53 pm)That’s a great site, but I wasn’t greeted too warmly last time I was there. Wasn’t it you who came to my aide? I’ll stop over there, but herding the kittens here is a full-time hobby (lol).
oops, which thread?
Be well,
Tagamet
/bbs
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:03 pm)Finally the Volt has both the options of Unleaded and premium gas now so no one will be disappointed depending on the choice of gas you will use in your Volt but still I’ll have to agree with others that more likely most will be driving electric most of the time except for long vacations.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:07 pm)I stopped by over there and the thread about the LEAF price was closed to comments. Not sure what went on, but I can’t find any smoke OR hornets.
OOPS, Found it.
BBS
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:26 pm)At this point of time, buying the Volt is not a rational decision. It’s an emotional one. Think of Ted in Fort Myers that decided to go for it even if it was a little over his budget.
It’s a statement that you’re sick and tired of sending your money to the middle east. It’s a political stand. It’s anything BUT a carefully thought purchase.
The Volt is an item you need to have to lead and free your country of oil. The CS number is not that relevant unless you travel constantly long distances.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:27 pm)LOL, I could see where your post *could* have touched something off, but it seems to have been largely ignored, so far. Seems like everyone is just plain happy about the Leaf’s price (as am I). I do agree with your questions about battery durability though. Time will tell…
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:30 pm)AMEN to that and to all the newborn competition!
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:44 pm)Your welcome my friend. Rest assured, you should not worry over what the MPG from the ICE will be; it will be over 50, JMHO.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:47 pm)Yes it is true, the cheese head pilot was even a guest at a Packers pre-season game…
and I truly pulled the old E85 fill up versus regular gas of a friends Suburban twice in 3 years! I saved about $20 one time and the other what when normal gas was $3.75 and E85 was sitting at $2.00 (normally it is much closer, but caught it just right) and saved about $50…. Guy never caught on! LOL
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:51 pm)Someone should put together a spread sheet of everyones guesses. I am sticking with 33-35 mpg in pure CS mode. (And I see nothing wrong with that range either.) I suspect many of the VOLT faithful will go “nuclear negative” like they did on the day of the $41K announcement. It’s ok guys 15 mpg difference is not the big picture here
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:53 pm)There’s already a thread here about that.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:04 pm)So far from what I have seen, switchgrass and sugar beats are not lower cost or more effective for ethanol. I would propose using the genetically modified corn. You do not need pesticides, as much water, energy, etc. People freak about GenMod for corn in food, so here is a good place for it. Then go with an E70 blend as that is what is typically used during winter in the midwest (even though it is called E85.)
Ethanol is very hard to handle from pipeline/distribution. It should be part of an over all program. Midwest has good distribution, not so good elsewhere.
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:05 pm)This has been said many ways and many times on this site. Perhaps these numbers will put it in better perspective:
-35mpg = 28.57 gallons per 1000 miles driven in CS mode
-50mpg = 20 gallons per 1000 miles driven in CS mode
-8.57 gallons per 1000 CS mode miles difference between 50mpg and 35mpg
Even if somebody drives 10,000 miles/yr in CS mode, it’s only 85.7 gallons more at 35mpg.
-7
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:08 pm)Who’s touting?
All we got was an “on target” without any detail stating for what.
Of course, if it did deliver 50, why price the vehicle so far out of reach of mainstream consumers by only offering a 16 kWh battery-pack?
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:16 pm)Jimza,
It’s time for you to broaden your horizons and take the next step by exploring the forum pages.
George B. started a thread on MPG in CS mode, and is keeping track of everyone’s guessimates. Seriously, visit the thread below and make your claim for all to see. Major bragging rights are at stake here. Even Tagamet got into the action.
Cheers!
http://www.gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4177&page=11
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:27 pm)EVEN Tagamet??? lol
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:44 pm)/night all
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:49 pm)I like your use of the ‘/’ key.
/night tag
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:59 pm)Some things like switchgrass don’t have to be fertilized or irrigated. So they are much better.
Also, to avoid a ton of processing it’s best to use pre-processed stocks. At the moment the best stocks are waste, things like yeast from breweries. But those supplies are limited so it’s a niche market at best. Some are going after algae which doesn’t pose the processing issues and which holds some promise but growing living things is always challenging.
Realistically bio-fuels will have to wait for Gen IV, where you can take sunlight and use an artificial lead to make lipids.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:04 pm)That is hard to believe. The people are more or less the same. Anyway, I couldn’t find anything going on. Pretty tame group.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:10 pm)Apparently, You don’t listen to what others say in support of their guesstimate of Volt’s MPG in CS mode. Did you see what I posted as my reasoning? Again apparently not. So lets go again.
The American version of the Cruze has nearly the same engine as the Volt does, except that the Cruze’s is turbo-charged. Most likely, it will get lower MPG because of the turbo- charger. Non-the -less, it is rated at 40+ MPG. A better comparison would be the European version of the Cruze. And that’s for a vehicle that is purely mechanical; the load on the engine comes from the load necessary to get the reciprocating action of the pistons to drive the crank shaft to rotate the wheels and move the car down the road after passing through a transmission. All these changes in motion within the engine, and transfer to a transmission, and then to the wheels involve loss of power because of friction. Therefore, the load on the engine is very large compared to an electric vehicle with a range extender.
The ICE on the Volt only needs to rotate the rotor of the generator; think of how little the friction is to rotate a generator. The load on the generator is determined by the frictional forces of its bearings plus the EMF present to achieve a given output. GM has engineered the generator/motor to be very efficient. Relatively little energy in needed to turn the generator rotor. This allows the ICE to operate in sweet spots that give excellent gas consumption, far better than the Cruze’s turbo charged version of the engine.
Therefore, the Volt will get better than 40 MPG. GM has consistently stated that they were aiming at 50 MPG and have even reported achieving satisfactory results from the ICE during fleet testing. So how did you come up with such a ridiculously low MPG of 33-35? I will be very surprised if they don’t achieve between 50 -60 MPG.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-1
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:44 pm)No, it’s not. Look it up… http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Of course, 40 would only be highway. We’re looking for a combined value. City will be quite a bit lower.
Aug 10th, 2010 (12:21 am)Don’t agree with your use of the English language at all. Replace the word ‘emotional’ with ‘ideological’ and you are on the right path. If you think your one car purchase will change the world- well, that’s ‘irrational’. Embrace the concept of ‘think globally, act locally’ and you realize it is quite ‘rational’. Even if someone goes over budget, it still may be ‘rational’ if you have an objective you intend to meet and hope to influence others to do the same.
-1
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:16 am)Ineficient CS mode is because GM use engine from the shelf. Genset engines are little bit different and much more efficient than drivertrain engines. I hope Volt will survive even with this peace of old stuff.
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:51 am)True. Car buying generally is emotional. Especially buying new cars. And he calculus of gas savings doesn’t make the Volt a rational decision on that basis alone.
Although if you or I had been looking for the right time to make that, stand-statement-message for the past 33 years, there may be a wee bit of careful thinking involved in the purchase, at some point in that 33 year time frame. Though I’m sure your statement is exactly right for people that share the exact same thinking, values, and life circumstances as yourself, from my point of view, there is a great deal of rationality that I have read in the comments here over the years, from people that will be buying Volts.
Aug 10th, 2010 (5:12 am)I believe the GEN 2 Volt will offer minor changes. Adding the E85 capability and the passive pedestrian alert system. Maybe a small change in the control panel, but unlikely due to cost.
The GEN 3 Volt will have both an upgraded battery and a deeper energy management system. I expect a wider usable range on the battery with “catch up” recharge being done during lower demand at a constant RPM. This system will provide both more HP and greater MPG.
But, for right now, we are where we are. The first lot of 10,000 Volts should still be on the road in 11 or 12 years from now. Providing 80% of the original battery capacity. Gasoline/Fuel savings over this period will depend on what you are driving now. My savings will be at least $10,000.
Not having to stop to refuel at the Arco, important. The initial car sale going to the car makers in Detroit rather than Zhongshan or Tsuchihashi, important. The contribution to the National effort to stop the flow of energy dollars to OPEC, priceless.
=D-Volt
Aug 10th, 2010 (6:33 am)The ICE should run long enough to completely heat up the oil and burn off any moisture within the oil. It will also have to run long enough to burn off any condensation and moisture in the exhaust system. Remember that H20 is a combustion by-product and it tends to accumulate in the exhaust of lightly driven cars (think about all the old ladies pulling away from stop lights and water pouring out of their tailpipes). The engine would have to run at least 10 minutes under load to accomplish these tasks. 15 min. would be better.
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:39 am)First, I have now officially posted my number on the forum…. Second, I just disagree with you.
One; GM saying 300 CS miles. Consumer Reports says 9 gallon tank. Simple math. but there is more.
Many cars in this size and weight class get around 30-35 mpg. VOLT engineers were focused on the battery/EV mode technology versus coming up with a higher mileage generator.
If you are right and I am wrong I will apologize to you in CAPITAL letters.
I was pretty close on the cost of the VOLT and no one said I was right! LOLOL
Aug 10th, 2010 (7:44 am)I followed the link and am now official… Damn, I was hoping for a nice spread sheet to everyones guesses in easy format! I am lazy… I did not have time to read what the great prize is!!! BTW is this “Price is Right” rules, where if you go over even by one you lose? Or is this closest to the pin? I am seeing a lot of people going over and maybe I can squeek in by being under if we go by Price is Right…
+2
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:54 am)How about the 2011 Ford Fiesta SFE: 40 highway, 29 city, 33 combined.
It’s realistic to expect less of a difference from Volt, but not the same for each category.
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:47 pm)It can be both : ideological and emotional. If you embrace an ideology, it often find its source in your emotions.
Aug 10th, 2010 (8:09 pm)Well, I know it’s not you! We’re touting 40 miles of EV first. 50 mpg is a backup to the plan. So what if it’s even as low as 35 mpg. If everyone drove a Pruis and then traded it in for a Volt we would all reduce gas consumption…
I’d buy a Volt over a Prius any day and so should everyone.
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:24 pm)Any know how high-altitude will impact the “stale” factor the talk about as the need for premium. And what is the science that explains why does increasing octane decrease how fast it goes stale? Because we have less O2 in the air they already reduce the octane of our fuel.. so Regular is 85.. premium s 87.
Aug 17th, 2010 (2:32 pm)It’s an adapted Delta, which would normally GVW like a Cruze. Since it already has an additional 400lbs of battery on board, the tow capacity is likely to be “check dealer for recommendation” and the dealer will recommend “buy a different vehicle if you want to tow anything.”