The saga of the EPA determining the Volt’s fuel economy sticker winds on. We’ve heard the EPA may or may not make the deadline of issuing a sticker by the time the Volt launches in November. If they don’t make it it will be the first time in recent history a car went on sale without an official government-sanctioned fuel economy.
This speaks to how disruptive Volt technology is.
At the recent CAR conference in Michigan, a reporter from the Detroit News asked GM’s executive director of EVs and hybrids, Larry Nitz, what the current status was.
Nitz first of all conceded that the famed 230 mpg highway fuel economy GM announced last summer won’t hold up.
“It will never show up on the label,” he said.
He also admitted GM has submitted a confidential proposal to the EPA, but wouldn’t disclose the details.
“The (EPA) is not close to finalizing the label. They say the end of the year, but that’s the general label. What they’ve agreed to is to work with us on a specific label” for the Volt, he told the Detroit News.
The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has agreed on a method to calculate the fuel efficiency of a PHEV, and the EPA may release that draft to the public later this month. They won’t have it finalized though until the end of the year, perhaps or perhaps not in time for the Volt.
GM has already committed to supplying the car with a table illustrating fuel consumption across a range of scenarios if the final EPA label isn’t ready.
Meanwhile Nitz made clear what should be pretty obvious to all of us by now. “Let me put it simply: If you don’t have a way to plug in this vehicle, don’t buy it,” he said.
He also made it clear it is his opinion that the Volt is a superior solution to the present state of pure electric vehicles.
“(The Volt) is a practical EV for America,” he said.
“The idea that I could come from work and I got a sick kid I can’t take to the doctor because I need to plug the damn thing in just doesn’t play in this country, I’ll tell you that right now,” said Nitz. “We live in a drive-through society that has to have flexibility.”
Source (Detroit News)
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:23 am)The efficiency of the Volt is what it is. Maybe not having a finished EPA label is as good a way as any to get everyone’s attention. Have questions? See your Chevrolet Dealer. Or soon, ask a Volt owner.
+10
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:24 am)Lyle, you’ve summed up this enigma: “This speaks to how disruptive Volt technology is.”
/ I think the following link may be the latest EPA draft document, but I’ll wait for the DOE, EPA & GM to work through it rather than spend $63 for a copy from:
http://standards.sae.org/j1711_201006
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:25 am)I have a place to plug in and would to before 2012 but in Chicago it wont happen. lets hope the flood gates of this type of game changing automobiles opens up.
Tom
+5
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:30 am)said Nitz. “We live in a drive-through society that has to have flexibility.”
Hey I might have a Big Mac attack and no burger joint in the range window, how frustrating would that be
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:37 am)Please stand by……
Take Care,
TED
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:41 am)With pump gas at $3. And the 40 mile range T battery charge costing about $1 (California). The effective MPG is 120. If you charge at a free station such as the workplace. The MPG goes to infinity.
The original 230 nimber came about from using the standard test of driving laps on a set course until the battery drains. Then driving one more lap. This could result in 50 miles on a couple of ounces of liquid fuel. Thus the 230MPG number. Good to hear the EPA is rethinking the type of labeling to be used with plug-ins.
=D-Volt
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:42 am)How about a poll
Will you buy the new GM stock?
Tom
+8
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:42 am)“If you don’t have a way to plug in this vehicle, don’t buy it.”
That’s either stating the obvious, or it’s admitting that in CS mode the Volt can’t compare in MPG to a standard hybrid. If it got 60 MPG in CS mode it might be worth buying even if you couldn’t plug it in. I sure hope it comes in at better than the 35 MPG some folks are speculating about.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:44 am)“Meanwhile Nitz made clear what should be pretty obvious to all of us by now. “Let me put it simply: If you don’t have a way to plug in this vehicle, don’t buy it,” he said.”
Not sure what he means…. I assume all buyers of this car WILL PLUG it in when ever possible.
Is he hinting the ICE related MPG will not be good at all and the only way this car will have over all “OK” MPG will require the 40 mile electric charge add in???. So if one had to drive in CS mode for awhile on a trip MPG would be as an average car? Therefore this comment by Mr. Nitz is a concern.
THANKS LYLE for this article.
Also think Mr Nitz nailed the very reason the VOLT will be a hit was his comment
“The idea that I could come from work and I got a sick kid I can’t take to the doctor because I need to plug the damn thing in just doesn’t play in this country, I’ll tell you that right now,” said Nitz. “We live in a drive-through society that has to have flexibility.”
That is exactly my thinking about using an electric car. And I believe for most people…. especially on this site.
+41
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:45 am)This is just one more clue that this IS disruptive, as Lyle and Nasaman state. People just can’t get their mind around electric cars. And the fact that GM required a government bailout to survive is making it impossible for a lot of people to think of the Volt as anything other than a lemon, or a boondoggle. It has taken me months to get some of my friends to even consider that it might be a good idea to limit our use of gasoline, and now that the Volt is 3 months from production the attacks on it are getting even more frenzied. The Volt isn’t perfect, neither was the first digital camera, but the Volt will change the way people look at cars in the same way that the DCS-100 changed photography.
But the Volt can fail, and the main reason it may fail is that the resistance to it is so varied and so zealous. You have the EV-1 fans whose hatred of GM rivals that of a Jesuit for Satan, then you have the ‘no government bailout’ folks who despise the thought of GM actually recovering from their well deserved bankruptcy, followed by the gear heads like Top Gear who love the sounds and smells and sheer adrenaline of a powerful ICE, then you have the Green zealots who think an EREV is blasphemy due to its having the audacity to include an ICE in the equation… Did I miss any haters?
Those are the main reasons GM may fail, but the joker in this deck is GM itself. The calcified, arthritic nature of their marketing this product has been abysmal from the start, from Lutz-ian mis-statements to the decision to price it over $40,000, GM has taken a beautifully engineered product and spat all over it.
I have the feeling that 12 months from now Hyundai is going to be marketing a car that looks a lot like the Volt, but sells for a lot less and has a better warranty. And GM will try to play catch up instead of leading the pack.
+6
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:49 am)Would hate to find that the volt gets half the mileage of my 06 Insight.
Take Care,
TED
+13
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:54 am)“We live in a drive-through society that has to have flexibility.”
I understand his statement, but as I tell my kids, you need to know when something is a “need” or a “want”. While everyone wants a vehicle that does everything, for nothing. What you need is a vehicle that meets your needs.
Yes, I NEED to take a sick child to the doctor. Can I do it with a BEV that has no charge? Nope. Can I still get my child to the doctor? Yep, I just use another car, or I ask a friend, or I call 911 if an emergency. For some people that “need” the car to be available 100% of the time, then a BEV is not for you. If you have flexibility and want to get off the oil habit, then a BEV could work for you.
The Volt will do fine. The Leaf will do fine.
Different strokes, for different folks.
+8
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:55 am)I have never seen so much attention paid to one vehicle launch.
Never.
How much money has been spent already by GM and Nissan, the government, and companies providing EV accommodations? Not a single major automaker has one on the road yet, to show for the efforts. I would expect that the car would be on the road first, prove itself, and then gather the support it would need to continue the line, but not with this one.
I am so discounting the dealer garbage and the EPA label as part of the energy needed to start an electric motor. Everything will hum along fairly smoothly from thereafter, I hope.
The impact of the Volt and Leaf are going to be so far reaching that these next few months are going to be a footnote compared to the changes we will see in transportation.
Amazing.
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:55 am)Ted in Fort Myers Said:
Would hate to find that the volt gets half the mileage of my 06 Insight.
How fast and far does that Insight go with out any gas?
How much regen is it able to apply to current loads, such as AC or power steering as opposed to inefficient battery storage?
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:03 am)Eco,
I do plan to do a little traveling when I retire. And yes the only way to get the first 40 miles in an Insight without gas is to push it or pull it. It will however go 650 miles on a tank (10 gal)and with reasonable driving it will get 60+ miles per gallon. And yes my volt is still on order. Anyone want to buy an 06 Honda Insight 2 seater for their kid to go to school for $10,000. It has 65,000 miles. Just not until next March when my Volt comes in.
Take Care,
TED
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:05 am)And regen does only go to battery storage.
Take Care,
TED
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:07 am)If the CS mpg is in the low 30′s (my prediction), it’s going to be an issue. If it’s in the 20′s — lookout.
/Nitz sounds like he’s having a bad day there.
+5
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:09 am)To me that is saying: “I want a car completely free of petroleum, but when I need to exceed its limitations I’ll just use the gas burner of my spouse, friend, or emergency services. I’ll never use any gas, someone else will use it for me.”
It seems less hypocritical to just buy an EREV rather than running an pure electric car with a ICE support system hidden in another vehicle.
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:10 am)One would expect the same MPG or better when compared to a parallel hybrid like the Prius.
If this car is only good in MPG ratings when the car is plugged then one might wonder how this car is superior to an all electric vehicle. If things are great for the first 40 miles but pretty grim after that with poor MPG in CS mode then one of the reasons to having this car may be suspect
I fully expect to travel > 40 miles may times. I hope the MPG is pretty high like the prius… if not.. ???
But I am optimistic. :+}
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:12 am)Agreed.
The Volt HAS to have mpg in at least the mid 30′s, or the napalm stores will be selling out quickly. I predicted about 34-38 mpg, but this statement makes me really wonder if GM is trying to hide behind some type of “effective” mpg.
+6
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:18 am)If you can afford an EREV, and NEED the flexibility, then yes, buy an EREV.
How many time in the last year did you have an emergency that would have required immediate useage of your car? I can not think of any, myself (I am sure I will have the issue, but I also have alternatives for the exceptions), but others may have real needs, and require a more traditional ICE type vehicle.
I was saying a BEV COULD work for you, and would help get you off the oil addiction. And yes, the Volt can also reduce our oil addiction, but for my lifestyle, a BEV would go further in reducing my oil consumption than an EREV.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:19 am)As you note these cars, especially the VOLT will have an impact.
And with this excitement and openness about the design we EXPECT this car will be great.
So any issues about energy use – MPG in CS – are big deals.
Everyone has high hopes for this car and want to see great success.
If this car can live up to the hype GM, Chevy, the dealers, and the consumers will be big winners.
The VOLT will go a long way to validate electric vehicle use as an everyday solution.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:36 am)Um, why wouldn’t someone want to buy a vehicle that gets 50 mpg’s in CS mode just because they can’t charge it?
Compare the Volt to any other vehicle that gets 50 or more mpg’s and you will see it has more utility, better performance and / or better styling. It also has resale value to those who can plug it in.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:38 am)I have no problem with choosing the option that leads to the least gas usage for your driving pattern. But until we have the CS MPG of the Volt it’s impossible to definitively crunch the numbers.
I take issue with those that ignore the Volt because it uses any gas at all. They want to appear to have a zero emission life style but actually rely on a hidden ICE support system in another vehicle. It seems to me to be more honest to use an EREV.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:38 am)I don’t agree at all. There is high demand for the Volt. If you can’t plug it in let someone else buy one of the limited availably Volts. I don’t know why there is such a wide range of guesses on this board. We have heard the figure of 50mpg from a couple of GM sources. If you compare $ premium vs regular that would be about the same as 42mpg regular. It will be very close to 50mpg on premium.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:41 am)As I have posted several times in the past couple years, this CS mpg is of great interest, since my original idea of the Volt was that is used an on-board, small generator along with a smaller battery, to allow running the generator at optimal rpm. This would provide the most efficient power generation, and the battery is used as the buffer to get through those power hungry manuevers (hills and acceleration). As I learned early on, this is not the case for how the Volt was being designed. I was disappointed, but then I also did not understand all the reasons behind that decision (you really want to use grid power whenever possible).
If GM can build a car like the Volt, with a “large” engine/generator and “large” battery and also achieve anything near 40+ mpg, then just think what you could do with a “small” engine/geneator and a “small” battery! You could SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the cost and weight of the vehicle, while getting most of the power benefits of the Volt. Based on some rough calculations in the past, a 20HP generator with a 6 kWhr battery, should be sufficient to power this lighter Volt equivalent, for a price reduction of at least $10-20,000.
Yes, this car does use gasoline most of the time. But, then again, for city driving in heavy traffic, you do NOT need to run the generator (assuming your not heating/cooling alot).
So, if the Volt can even achieve 40 mpg, I would be willing to wager, you could increase mpg by 10-20%, and achieve 45-50 mpg, for a cost that nearly EVERYONE could afford ($20$30k). While this does not get us off oil, it reduces the consumption, and since it would be available to many more people, the actual reduction of oil would be greater than selling cars that only a few can afford to buy.
/Just a nice Sunday thought dump….be nice!
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:52 am)Yes. This sounds more “Prius-like”, but if it can run off battery at all speeds (hwy/cty), then I think it could exceed Prius-like mpg, and reach mpg’s in the 60′s, for many situations. Also, I would hope it would also be less expensive than the Prius, but maybe I am reaching….?
+12
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:56 am)Any single MPG they put on the Volt will be wrong. The Volt cannot have a fixed MPG because your MPG depends on how far you drive. A person driving 42 miles will get a much higher MPG than a person driving 300 miles, because you don’t use gas until about the 40th mile.
I’ve said it before – a new 2-mode EPA sticker will be needed to accurately describe the Volt’s mileage. 40 miles on battery, XX MPG on gasoline after that. Any other EPA determination would be wildly inaccurate, depending on distance driven.
People are not stupid. They can do the math – 40 miles electric, and 1 gallon of gas for every XX miles after that. It’s pretty simple.
The only thing we’re waiting for is the final piece of the Volt puzzle – how many MPG will the Volt get once the gas engine kicks in ? I do hope Carcus3 is wrong about “If the CS mpg is in the low 30’s (my prediction), it’s going to somewhat of an issue.If it’s in the 20’s— lookout./Nitz sounds like he’s having a bad day there.”
If the gas MPG of the Volt is much less than 50 MPG (prius territory), and GM has been “managing our expectations” (preparing us for bad news), there WILL be a lot of disappointed, angry Volt fans out there (I will be one of them). It was GM’s brilliant idea to shoehorn in a 4-cylinder engine into the Volt.
Let’s see, GM disappointed us on the Volt Concept (dead), the Volt styling (aero boring), the Volt price (comfortably under $30000.00?), the Volt pre-order system (rampant price gouging), so let’s see how GM “manages” our expectations on the Volt’s CS MPG. My heart (3 sizes too small) says Carcus3 may be right, and this time I hope I’m wrong – and GM has good news for us.
And now we wait (again).
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:58 am)I have been to other sites where a huge portion of the posters hate GM with astounding passion. This is GM’s biggest problem and will take years of concerted effort of building cars second to none to overcome.
I am not in agreement with your view of GMs marketing. There certainly are problems, like the Volt Dance and gouging dealers. But in general the ads I have seen are very good. Unfortunately there are strong laws that prevent GM from cutting off dealers that give GM a bad reputation. It is up to customers to refuse to deal with bad dealers. If you get bad service, and have to take the car back in several times for the same problem, or get implausible excuses, or are quoted $10k markups, just walk away and go to a good dealer. I do not understand how these bad dealers stay in business.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:01 am)I don’t agree with the sentiment “idiots shouldn’t buy Volts so the deserving can get them”. The more people trying to buy Volts the better. Either GM will ramp up production faster or someone else will jump on the opportunity and bring out a competing EREV. Maybe both.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:02 am)Lyle, (or anyone who knows) are there any major “events” on the calendar that may present an opportunity to be turned into a “CS mode mpg announcement forum”? That number (I’m still hoping for 50) will have *such* an impact – especially on the “Joe Sixpack” general car-buying public (and therefore the future of the Volt).
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:08 am)Well, that was depressing….but unfortunately fairly accurate.
This CS mpg thing is starting to really become one of those, itches you want to scratch, but just cannot reach.j
Come on GM. Lets put the cards on the table. It is close enough to launch, and the sooner this gets out there, the better IMO.
If it is good news, and your have mpg’s in the upper 40′s or better, your in great shape.
If it is not so good news, and your in the low to mid 30′s, you will have time to defend the position and use the “blended” mpg, to show this in the best light.
If it is bad news, and the mpg is in the upper 20′s, then, well I guess you might as well hold off the announcement until as late as possible.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:08 am)I would disagree on the disappointments.
Volt Concept?? They did exactly what they said. The Volt concept was a 40 mile range EV with a range extender. That is exactly what they produced. The concept of the Volt is not the light weight Camoro-ish looking shell they stuck it in. As far as looks goes, the concept was no where near as nice as many “concept cars”. The point is, the “concept” of the car is not the looks but the drive train.
Volt Styling?? They optimized the aero a little to improve performance. No disappointment there.
Volt Price??? They… Oh yeah, you have a point there.. +1 They should have shot down the under 30K numbers right away. There always has been an undercurrent of opinion that put the car at $40K, however, so I was not disappointed.
Volt pre-order system?? Who can be surprised. This is how GM has sold cars for years. Nothing new here.
the Volt’s CS MPG? we shall see.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:13 am)Have you done the math on the 230MPG number? 40+10=test run. 10 miles are run at a fraction of a gallon resulting in 230MPG. The number I get is over 40MPG CS. But, you’re right, time will tell.
=D-Volt
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:23 am)The EPA has said they are considering this method. Let’s hope they follow through on it.
I don’t agree with all of that. First I much prefer the new styling, didn’t like the original concept. Under $30k was wishful thinking, not realistic expectation. GM is right on concentrating on advertising the price of the Volt with the federal tax rebate figured in. Should look at it as a $33.5k base, not $41k. When you compare with other cars where the rebate is not available that is your true out of pocket expense. Yes I was expecting 50mpg on regular and a little disappointed to find 50mpg on premium, but like the price is just a little worse than expected.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:27 am)I agree 100%, but just after my last post about potential announcement opportunities, I recalled the GM quote “You won’t hear it from us”. That one still bothers me. Maybe they just “misspoke” (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:28 am)I certainly didn’t mean to imply that people without a place to plug in their Volt were idiots.
Furthermore I agree with the statement that people who cannot plug in should be able to buy the Volt for what ever reason pleases them, just that I agree only if the Volt was in high production fulfilling market demand. My argument applies only for the first year.
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:35 am)Wireless Recharging would be a solution for those that wont be bothered to handle a charging cable. The car would still retain the normal plug.
This option could be of benefit to a large proportion of BEV owners.. for vandalism prevention and for convenience. Let me propose a few options.
1. Low efficiency induction: this would consist of a cheap rubber mat on the garage floor.. perhaps 1″ thick with a cable that plugs into a 110VAC socket. You can have two options on this, a low power version designed for people that seldom drive and another for those that drive 40 miles a day..
The larger one would deliver the full 8 hour charge at 1kw, the smaller unit would deliver 300wh and would take a long time to fully recharge the Volt, perhaps a full day. These pads would only turn on when they detect the car is near. Available at Walmart for about $49.99
2. higher efficiency, higher power induction: this again would a be a floor pad but a bit more sophisticated (and larger) since it would move itself to get close to the car and reduce the air gap. This makes sense for a higher powered 240VAC setup, to charge cars with larger batteries in short time. Probably not for the Volt. Recently a company announced work on a product like this.
3. Long distance wireless: recently advances have been made on this, using resonant magnetic fields that are efficient and very safe .. the distance covered can be anywhere from 2-10 ft.. again two units are proposed.. a low power unit that can deliver about 350wh all day long and a higher powered one that can recharge a battery in 3 hours or so. The small one fitted with automatic billing could be cheap enough that it could be buried by the millions below parking spaces all over the US.. perhaps the size of a book and low cost since it would be made by the millions. Higher powered versions of about 1kw could be used at work since its expected the car will only be there for about 8 hours. Payment for parking and recharge could be combined, and no need for meter maids to come collect the coins. These units can be buried under the pavement or concrete, but they could also be just hung on the wall of your garage.. perhaps also recharging your power tools and lawnmower at the same time.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:36 am)“The idea that I could come from work and I got a sick kid I can’t take to the doctor because I need to plug the damn thing in just doesn’t play in this country, I’ll tell you that right now,” said Nitz. “We live in a drive-through society that has to have flexibility.”
That’s a great quote. What that says is that Nitz, and hopefully the rest of GM, really understands their customers. In America, an EV for most families would have to be a third car. Few of us have the space and money for that.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:37 am)I don’t think that was misspoke. GM has gotten a lot of flack over their 230mpg figure and doesn’t want to go through that again. I think we will get a “preliminary” announcement from the EPA sooner rather than later and that is what GM is counting on.
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:43 am)*IF* the CS mode mpg is a “good” one, why wait for a third party to announce it???
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:44 am)The CS number is extremely important in a purchase decision for the Volt- and that is in large part because we know (or at least various announcements indicate) that there will be a number of electric alternatives showing up within a couple years. Unfortunately, it does appear that CS numbers will be less than a Prius, or a GM exec would not be telling us not to buy this car if no plug was available. If the CS number was higher than a Prius, this would be a very stupid thing to say.
Once the CS number is known, we analyze our lifestyles and note what works best. A traveling salesman could be better off with the Prius, since it doesn’t matter what the first 40 miles is when the big picture reveals more gas would be used with the Volt. Maybe the soccer mom is best off with the Volt and the reliable commuter gets the Leaf.
The nicest thing in all of this is knowing that it is not the Volt-or nothing. It is Volt- or waiting. I too anxiously await this CS number, but thanks to living in FL, I am forced to wait anyway. Hopefully, other auto makers will be closer to production by that time and the good news is that this EPA crap will be resolved by then. I anticipate that other automakers will rush to press with their numbers (for soon to be released plugins) to try and head off would be Volt buyers with their offerings. So, no matter how CS turns out, do not fret. If it is unacceptable, then just have some patience. Don’t Worry. Be Happy.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:44 am)Insight shape is basically the same as Prius, yet it only delivers 40 MPG.
Fusion weight is a little bit less than Volt, yet it only delivers 40 MPG.
On what basis would you expect 50 MPG, knowing there’s a conversion penalty?
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:46 am)Problem is likely the politicians, bureaucrats, and other non-technical types trying to figure it out. I suspect right now another issue is how much testing time it will take when this technology becomes more common. Test it charged up and tell us the range and kilowatt-hours. Test it in charge depleted mode and tell us the mpg. That’s sufficient for anyone that wants to do the math to estimate their situation. GET IT DONE! Of course that’s just an former test engineer’s opinion.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:46 am)I see things the same way. I think it is great that many will buy a BEV but I also clearly recognize that many more will not even consider one given the limitations.
I observe people buying the cars with the features that they occasionally or might need. they do not buy the cars with only the features and performance that they typically need.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:49 am)Inductive Power Technology – IPT – Wireless charging for electric vehicles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnePffoZs_k
/and for those who care, it’s even safe for kitty
+9
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:51 am)The transmissions in the Prius and Fusion are loss free? Don’t think so. How about the engine is smaller and can be optimized to operate in a narrower rpm range and load condition.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:52 am)That’s completely inaccurate. It was based more on consumer trip averages, not “one extra lap”. It’s important to get the fact right.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:56 am)These are MY disappointments, Nuclearboy and Roy H, not necessarily yours or those of anyone else. What I’m trying to get across is that GM doesn’t have a good track record of truthfulness. This is why they have to “manage expectations” (prepare people for bad news). If they had good news, I expect they world be much faster to announce the Volt’s CS MPG.
The posters here have been “managing expectations” even better than GM – The Volt started at 50 CS MPG (per GM), then posters here began talking about 40, 30, and now even CS MPG in the high 20 MPG range. I am prepared to be disappointed by GM yet again. And the longer GM waits, the worse GM looks.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:06 am)One possible issue with all this comes to mind. Some are already worried about the health effects of EM fields from relatively low power stuff like cell phones and towers, wifii, microwaves, power lines, etc. Think these wireless charging locations will cause no concern and meet no resistance?
+7
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:07 am)I’ve heard the following so many times, both on gm-volt and in the “civilian” world:
“If the Volt can’t get better mileage than a Prius when running on gasoline, then I might as well buy a Prius”. Or Jetta TDI. Or Cruze XFE.
When GM finally announces the CS fuel economy, there will be spasms of anguish, rending of garments, headlines of doom. The $41K price reaction will pale in comparison.
It’s all so pointless because the end goal is how much gasoline is used to travel how many miles *between charges*. If the Volt only got 10 MPG in CS mode, and you traveled 45 miles a day, you’d still be achieving 90 MPG. Those are absurd numbers, of course, but just because you travel regularly more than 40 miles, your Volt wouldn’t fall instantly to Prius-level numbers.
If much of your driving is travel and leisure by car, often hundreds of miles per day, then the Volt isn’t your best choice compared to some hybrids or diesels.
If you have no place to plug in the Volt, then it isn’t your best choice compared to some hybrids or diesels.
If the Volt’s CS mileage is 25 MPG and you plug in the Volt at home every night, driving 80 miles a day you’ll get the same fuel economy as the Prius — 50 MPG.
If the Volt’s CS mileage is 33 MPG and you plug in the Volt at home every night, driving 117 miles a day you’ll get the same fuel economy as the Prius — 50 MPG.
If the Volt’s CS mileage is 40 MPG and you plug in the Volt at home every night, driving 200 miles a day you’ll get the same fuel economy as the Prius — 50 MPG.
So keep a clear eye when GM announces the CS mode fuel economy for the Volt. The rating DOES NOT HAVE TO BE anywhere near the numbers for conventional high-mileage cars for the Volt to beat the ever loving pants off of the competition for most drivers.
So if you typically drive under 117 miles a day, you can still be very happy and quite smug in the presence of your Prius/TDI/XFE-owning neighbors, coworkers and rugby buddies, even if the CS number comes in at 33 MPG.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:08 am)So basically, you’re saying it’s a wash? The different losses cancel out and the size & optimization are already implemented. Why do some hybrids only deliver 40 MPG still then?
Also, ask yourself this: Why did real-world MPG averages for Prius increase from 45 to 50 over the years, despite the size & power increase?
Then, ponder why a heavily specialized non-hybrid like Cruze gets only 40 MPG highway and much less city.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:12 am)I really don’t like pulling apart quotes, my apology there, but the hype has been from us, not GM.
We knew the design goals from the beginning. We argue them, not GM.
But there is absolutely no doubt that the car will be THE class leader in fuel economy for a car that weighs as much as the Volt. No Doubt. We have already seen it in our short test drives. I’ve seen 41 mpg, Lyle’s seen 35 and that’s in the 65% cars. The limit of the drivetrain at speed is what we don’t know but that’s not my point.
The point of the Volt is to give us the opportunity to drive a normal car without using gas.
The gas motor is there to be a bridge to EV driving until we can successfully replace a fuel tank with a battery. Isn’t that what we knew from the beginning? WE are making it more than that today. This decade marks the beginning of the century and the beginning of the weaning off of oil. We are ending this decade with the Volt and the Leaf.
I just might help my grandchildren build an electric go cart. They’ll get it, no doubt.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:13 am)So that they don’t have a repeat of the 230mpg reaction. Anything GM could announce before EPA will get an adverse reaction from EPA representatives, not to mention the flack from a certain group of posters here.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:18 am)The production of the Volt was announced some 3 years ago. The government has developed taxpayer funded rebates for buyers of EVs. And yet we’re sitting here 3 months from launch still debating the fuel economy sticker? Only the gov’mint could orchestrate such a fiasco.
The other thing to remember is the sticker is a “fuel economy” sticker, not a “gas mileage” sticker. My guess is that a sticker will be developed to allow shoppers to compare all types of cars as to fuel economy, including BEVs, natural gas, etc. It might even give different ratings for different types of fuels for flex fuel vehicles.
Because the cost of fuels vary over time, costs will not be as much an issue on the sticker as fuel economy, just like on the current sticker. I don’t believe there’s a big, bold print line on the current sticker that says “you’ll pay an extra $.30 per gallon” for a car with premium fuel. I’m not even sure whether the sticker for a premium fuel only car adjusts the small annual fuel cost section to reflect the additional $.30 per gallon.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:19 am)There’s all sorts of competition coming very soon… including other plug-in hybrids.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:20 am)As one engineer to another, I’m afraid that an awful lot of people won’t “do the math” for their own situation. They’ll look at the CS number, compare it to the highway rating on some other car, conclude that the Volt is a fraud, and walk away, blathering their misconception to the immediate world.
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:20 am)This is the information I have regarding EPA testing.
One problem with the old (pre-battery) test is that it doesn’t include driver input. This is why some people achieve 30MPG with a V-6. The Volt was driven at X speed. Then increased to X+. Then lowered to X-. While an aware driver would easily do better by keeping one eye on the efficiency ball.
Here are the numbers I get: An unknown fraction of a gallon of liquid fuel resulted in 190 miles in a gallon burned. 190 being 230-40 battery. Tony P. mentioned that the 230 number may be low. Another GM representative said that the MPG is over 230.
With this said, the hard number I get is 38MPG CS during the test. This is with an unaware driver. Without an effciency gauge. And most likely 87 octane fuel.
Add an efficiency gauge (+2?). And 91 octane fuel (+.5?). And more time to tune the system, software ..ect (+1?).
38+2+.5+1= 41.5 MPG CS is very realistic IMHO.
=D-Volt
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:23 am)Suggestion for EPA:
For plug-in hybrids including the Volt do two sets of city, highway and combined as normal, one set starting with fully charged battery and the other starting with depleted battery.
For the Volt fully charged tests, provide figures in m/kwhr or possibly kwhr/m.
For normal plug-in hybrids that will run at low speed on battery only but ICE kicks in about 30mph or whatever. Do the same tests providing mgg for both sets and total kwhr to charge battery.
+6
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:30 am)I believe you can count on the 33-35mpg for CS mode. When Consumer Reports review was posted, the evaluator clearly stated it had a 9 gallon tank. GM is stating that you get an additional 300 miles, so simple math makes it 33mpg. GM did not immediately or even later refute Consumers Report about 9 gallons. I suspect that the reporter actually saw some sort of fuel level display on the panel which gave him that number.
That said, for the typical driver this will translate to about 132 mpg overall. Way better than a Prius… I drive about 14,000 miles per year. And surprise, surprise – when I reviewed my driving patterns and calculated miles which should fall under EV and miles that will be CS, it turns out to be about 75% will be battery. GM actually did some homework on this!
Using the 33 mpg rate I will use about 106 gallons of gas. 14,000 miles / 106 gallons = 132 mpg. And I was actually am somewhat conservative knowing that I could easily do better, if I tried hard enough.
Anything higher than 33mpg is just whip cream on top of the “ICE” cream. If you are a travelling sales person that puts on more than 80 miles per day, this car is not for you from a cost stand point. That said, 80 mile per day in a BEV will be more disastrous as many times you will be stranded on the side of the road. If you do not have reliable source for charging on an ongoing basis, this car and any type of BEV is not for you either.
I don’t know what everyones issue is with trying to figure out what the EPA will do with stickers and what it will say. Just open up a simple spread sheet and put in your normal driving numbers for each day of the week. Include any trips you take that would be subject to not being able to charge or will be mostly CS mode and calculate it in.
Using the worst case 33mpg will tell you where you stand. Oh and if it happens that the CS mode = 50 mpg wow I get 198mpg overall. But I will be happy with 132…
Oh and I won’t have to alienate friends and co-workers by having to bum a ride or use their car for any reason…. Hey Mary, I know I have been bragging in the lunch room about my electric car, but it turns out I need to run and get my dads prescription filled and run out to his house. It turns out I may be a little low getting back here and then going home. Can I use your car? I really really need to get this out to my dad’s…
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:32 am)Past headline:
Nissan Reports LEAF Range Will Vary From 47 to 138 Miles (12-Jun-2010).
Present Headline:
GM Execs Lower the Cones of Silence
Future Headline:
GM Blames EPA for Disappointing Mileage Numbers
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:32 am)That may be true. Maybe I’m just down-wind, but the sniff test keeps coming up FAILED. I’d love to be wrong.
Guess we’ll need to “Stay tuned”…..(argh)
Be well,
Tagamet
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:33 am)8 days from now, generic situations like that will no longer be acceptable.
Then, 365 days of real-world daily-driving data would have been collected.
With it, calculations can be performed based on actual driving.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:34 am)First I disagree people “won’t do the math”. People buy clothes using pant leg and waist measurement and don’t find that too onerous. People research TVs and all electronic devices with myriads of specs to consider. At 50mpg in CS mode there is nothing wrong with comparing to other ICE cars for long trips, ignoring the 40 first miles. It will work just fine.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:35 am)It’s hard to take comparisons seriously when the plug-in model is excluded, even when a sincere effort is made to be constructive.
Also, it is better to state efficiency in terms of gallons consumed rather than MPG. After all, that’s the system the rest of the world uses instead.
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:35 am)Guessing CS MPG is fun … up to a point. GM needs to do the right thing and disclose. The long delay relays that there is a need to hide something. Can’t see the gain in this. Even if the actual number is over 40 CS MPG. The CS MPG will need to be close to 50 to move the price of the GM IPO. A mistake, or a calculated risk?
Oh, the drama…
=D-Volt
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:35 am)GM could release an un-official number, but they could not use it for any sort of advertising without getting into trouble.. perhaps with a large asterisk. *Pending EPA approval
We probably will have to wait for private testers.. and hopefully the genset will be fully broken in by then and at maximum efficiency.. I would like to see long distance hwy runs at constant speeds, perhaps using cruise control.. at 55, 60, 65 and 70mph. On a level hwy, windows closed..
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:38 am)typical father and son leave for work and school in the morning. Son drives the Prius, father drives the Volt. Gas for one no gas for the other.
3 pm son comes home.
5 pm father comes home. Son plugs in the Volt.
8 pm son asks dad for the Volt for a date.
He hates gasoline.
Not unlikely.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:39 am)1. Anyone thinking the Volt will get 50 MPG in CS mode isn’t paying attention. GM has been walking back from that number for quite a while. My guess has been 37 MPG but that may end up being too optimistic.
2. The whole range issue is being blown out of proportion. Needing to take a sick child to the hospital? How about the other car sitting in the driveway. And who says you don’t have that much range left in your trusty BEV. I don’t blame GM marketing for hitting on the advantages of the range extender — it’s a huge advantage — but this isn’t a reason swallow all these unrealistic scenarios they keep trotting out.
Yes the range extender is an advantage — and for some people a big one — but it comes with a penalty of greater weight, less interior room, and more maintenance. Plus the EV range of a Volt just isn’t that great. A lot of people don’t travel more than 40 miles a day and for these folks a hundred mile range BEV will work just fine.
I’d also question the assertion that the “Volt is a practical EV for America”. Not with an MSRP of $41K. A practical EV for America will have to get down to $20K after rebates. (But he probably wasn’t talking about price).
Don’t get me wrong. I love the Volt. Just saying that the marketing BS needs to be met with a bit more analytical scrutiny.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:40 am)I don’t think they can announce it before the EPA has a final figure. That said, I don’t care about the EPA’s final rating. I just want to know charge sustaining mode.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:40 am)IF the sticker says 33 mpg, and $41K, the buyer will say “Where was that Prius dealership again?”. I am *NOT* saying that that is a wise choice, I’m saying that that is about the level of “math” that will be done by many. Sad, really.
JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:41 am)Has Toyota made any firm plans to sell the plug-in lithium option for the Prius?.. I hope they dont wait until both GM and Hyundai have been offering lithium in their cars for 3 years.
The planet is dying and Toyota continues to use poisonous and in-efficient nimh batteries.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:44 am)GM can advertise anything so long as it’s accurate. It doesn’t have to wait for the official EPA numbers. It just can’t say that the numbers are official when they’re not.
For example, Nissan is advertising the Leaf as having a 100 mile range based on the LA4 cycle. That cycle is not an official EPA cycle — it’s milder — but Nissan can and does still use it.
FWIW GM knows exactly what the numbers are on all relevant cycles. The EPA negotiation is about CAFE credit not about consumer education.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:45 am)Don, that is not so.. third parties with no knowledge are the ones that have been saying that for a while now.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:50 am)For most people, what’s the point of comparing the CS mode mileage to other ICE cars for long trips? If you drive long trips nearly every day, fine. If you don’t, you’re going to have to take your own typical daily miles and “do the math” which, unfortunately, involves a couple of reciprocals. If people just compare the CS mileage to a conventional car’s number, a lot will end up buying cars that will soak up many times the fuel consumed by a Volt over the course of a year.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:53 am)I doubt that, so this is one time when I’m more optimistic than you are.
While a lot of people I know who have a Prius are very technical, some aren’t, but even the less technical people are smart enough to know exactly what they’re buying and the reasons why they’re buying it. (The technical reasons, not the psychological reasons).
People who buy the Volt are buying an electric car. They’ll know that and a lot of other things as well. Now the plug-in Prius may be a different story since a plug-in Prius will be reasonably similar. We’ll have to see how close the specs are and the price of that vehicle as well.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:55 am)Methinks that if GM wanted a CS mode mpg out in the public, it’d *be* out in the public. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:56 am)I think that those of us that will have daily driving mileage of less than 40 miles as many will should think of cost per mile instead of MPG for most of our use.
I have researched with Southern Ca Edison and there are 3 ways to buy electricity from them for the Volt. Regular service/ time of day/ and a separate meter to the Volt only. It looks like my existing car now gets about 20MPG and to go 40 miles at $3.00 per gal gas it costs 15cents per mile for gas only. At 15 MPG it would be 20 cents or at 25 MPG it would be 12cents. The diff types of billing for electricity goes from about 12cents per KWH to 30cents depending on time of day and plan choice. If we figure 8 kwh on the Volt to go 40 miles it will be 8x12cents =.96cents to go 40 miles or 2.4 cents per mile and at the high end it would figure 6cents per mile.
So if you have a car that now gets 25 Mpg and you pay the high end for electricity you still save half of the fuel cost.
I hope to pay 2.4cents and comparing to my car now I will pay less than 1/6 that I do now.
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:58 am)Uncontested.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:00 am)It started with Frank Weber commenting that the MPG in CS mode “this is a story for another day” and Andrew Farah talking about the trade-offs. Then we had Lutz talking about how they could have gotten better mileage in CS mode with a direct mechanical link but they decided against that. Then we had statements that the mileage would be better than (non-hybrids) in its class. Here we have the walk back from the 230 MPG number. None of these involve third parties.
Moreover, everyone at GM, from Whitacre on down, has been very consistent in saying that you can go 300 miles in CS Mode. Since we know from Consumer Reports that GM told them the gas tank holds 9 gallons of gas, it’s hard not to conclude that GM is sending a message.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:01 am)I wouldn’t be sure about that. The perfect driver for the Volt would drive just under 40 miles daily but regularly drive over 100 miles a day on the weekend. A Leaf wouldn’t save any gas on the daily commute but would require switching vehicles on the weekend, probably for something requiring more gas than the Volt.
Or did you mean “don’t *ever* travel more than 40 miles”?
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:05 am)I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. But here is my scenario. Most of my driving is within the city, occasionally exceeding 40 miles by a small margin, say 10 extra miles. I will ignore that and just say to myself daily driving will be almost gas free. On weekends I occasional go out of town, this is always well over 100 miles and up to 600 round trip so I will look at the CS mileage and say for trips it will cost me this. It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that.
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:06 am)2-mode sticker in USA would read:
5 m/kwh
50 mpg
2-mode sticker in Canada would read:
12 kwh/100km
5 L/100km
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:09 am)You asking for a basis, I gave you one. The transmissions in parallel Hybrids have lots more gears, pumps and clutches than what’s needed in the serial design. The engine in the parallel hybrid has to vary with road speed and transmission gear. The engine driving the generator can operate in a much narrower speed range. You never have to rev it to a 6k+ red-line so you can tune the induction, exhaust, and valve parameters without the compromises of needing to produce acceptable power over the typical speed and load range. Is it a wash? Maybe, maybe not. None of us but the engineers on the program have the real world data on all this. We’re just making scientific wild ass guesses. SWAG.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:15 am)Add the usable battery capacity and the gas tank size and you’re pretty much done. Is it perfect and tells everything? Heck, even the EPA numbers on the ICE cars don’t do that and they’ve been testing those for decades.
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:15 am)Not really. Look at SAE – they are still debating fast charge standard. BTW, how about 802.11n standard ? The work started in 2002 – and was approved in 2009 after 7 years.
Consensus building takes a lot of time. Infact government bodies typically take less time than private industry standard bodies.
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:19 am)So much focus on CS mode on the highway. Really, is this so important? If you are driving more than 40 miles a day on the highway, why even buy the Volt? A diesel would be such a better, cheaper, cleaner and more efficient fit. VW has some great diesel technology. Check them out.
CS: 70 mph on flat highway (two ways – averaged), regular gas (I made my original prediction on regular gas – shouldn’t make much difference anyway) will be around 30 mpg or less. If it gets this then that would be excellent for a serial hybrid. Pop the corks and celebrate. Who is expecting 50 mpg?! That is so wishful thinking it’s not even funny. Why would a more inefficient drivetrain get more than a very simple ICE – mechanical configuration in a car the size and weight of the Volt? Sprinkle the fairy dust and come back to earth.
Let’s get this plug-in on the road and enjoy the city (and occasional or short highway) driving.
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:28 am)(Tagamet hides his bag of fairy dust behind his Unicorn….)
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:32 am)GM is fast losing a lot of people like me.
My problem with GM, esp. recently, has been their FUD about pure electrics. They have started talking about “what will you do if your child is sick and you are out of charge”. So, in essense, they get bailed out to the tune of billions (which I supported) and instead of trying to pull people from gas guzzlers, they want to steal Leaf’s customers through FUD – using a message which directly contradicts US government’s policy of supporting electrics to reduce gas consumption.
GM is really going down a dangerous path. Already Rush and other conservatives have made attacking Volt a proxy for attacking Obama. Now with all this FUD GM will anger EV enthusiasts (and environmentalists).
What will GM do when they start selling BEV ? Spend marketing dollars countering their own FUD ?
I like Volt’s concept. To an average American family with multiple cars, the ideal would be to have one BEV and one PHEV. That will reduce, for my family, gas comption from some 1,000 gallons to 75 gallons a year.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:35 am)That’s quite the over-simplification. Prius is a two-speed hybrid. 1 gear. That’s it. A hybrid like Insight has 4. Sonota will have 6. Malibu will have 6 too. You can’t just dump all hybrids into a single category like that.
And no, the engine doesn’t have to vary in hybrid like Prius… since it has a power-split device, unlike those assist hybrids. That allows it to vary the motor RPM to deal with driving conditions instead of the engine.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:37 am)From the article :
“He also admitted GM has submitted a confidential proposal to the EPA, but wouldn’t disclose the details.”
Isn’t this an oxymoron ?
P.S. Lyle, it would be great to be able to quote your article in the same fashion as the posts. Just saying.
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:45 am)Your 06 Insight would not leave your driveway without using oil. If you drive less than 40 miles a day, the Volt wins. Even if the mileage is less, since you start using it after 40 miles, you still have a gain, mileage wise.
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:00 pm)At that time, public chargers will be easy to find, range will be twice or three times what we have now (200-300 miles) so they will simply say that the market reality is different.
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:01 pm)I still like my table. Even my wife could understand it. You should see her eyes glaze over when I start talking about the VOLT. //(luv ya’ baby!)
The ‘education of America’ needs to start right now! Let’s see some 30 second tv ads! Please!
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:02 pm)Good for you !
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:06 pm)I intend to buy stock in the New GM. The question is WHEN to buy? Do I try to get in right away at the time of the IPO, or do I wait, perhaps in case the stock subsequently drops after the initial IPO excitement and is cheaper later?
George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!!
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:14 pm)Uninformed resistance perhaps.. the inductive pads are very short range and low 60hz frequency, and the resonating magnetic pads have totally no effect on any living being, the second one has nothing to do with microwaves or cell phones just magnetism.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:18 pm)Wish I could give a +10 for that post!
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:19 pm)I think that the VOLT customer would go the other way for an alternative:
2010 Audi A5 Sedan – Front Track Premium Plus
MSRP: $36,275
CVT Automatic: 23/30 MPG
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:20 pm)In my opinion this is what GM is trying to avoid… I would love to have a CS number =or > 50 MPG. But I think the chances of that are slim and none. So it’s obvious GM is trying to find a way to avoid a low CS number appearing anywhere on the EPA label.
It’s true that the Volt’s effective MPG will be higher than any hybrid on the road when you plug it in. And it’s true that if you never plug it in you are missing the point of the Volt. However, having said that, the CS MPG is a basic function of the design of the car and can’t be hidden forever. For GM to be so quiet on the subject does not speak well for the final result.
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:28 pm)A tough call, always a gamble. But I agree with your general statement. Initial excitement will drive price up briefly. The smart people bought Tesla shares within the first hour of the IPO and sold 27 hours later. You might consider the same timing, and then re-purchase a few weeks later after all the dust has settled. Good Luck!
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:31 pm)Smart… I bought Tesla on IPO day only to sell it before it cratered.
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:35 pm)The early adopters, can easily figure out the combined EV/CS MPG. Then the next group of people will still be the higher educated and more affluent that can get past a basic sticker. In about 4 years with the VOLT 4.0 is released and the mass market jumps in, the price should be down significantly and the performance increased so that even the trailer trash crowd will know it is a bargain.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:36 pm)Here are two philosophical mind experiments, just like Einstein used to do.. note that no hardware or spec on the actual Volt would change.
Mind Experiment #1: Suppose the Volt had been labeled a Cadillac instead of a Chevy?.. people would be ecstatic on the low price and gas savings.. and the prestige/luxury!
Mind Experiment #2: Lets say the range extender had been made an “option”, not a real one because no one crazy enough would buy a Volt without the range extender but still under the options listing of the brochure.. Would people obsess so much about the mpg of that option?.. It would focus the minds of the customers on what the Volt is, an electric vehicle with 40 miles of range.. with an optional range extender for those times you need more.
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:38 pm)Question for CorvetteGuy,
I assume dealers will not support GMs lease terms, as it requires them to effectively sell below MSRP. I also assume that dealers can adjust and make their own terms. So..
How much would lease payments be based on $41k + 2$k mark-up – $7.5k rebate = $35.5k price + dealer prep and taxes. $2500 down payment. Low promotional interest (whatever GM used for their advertised $350/m lease). Has your dealership come up with a lease plan they are comfortable with?
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Today’s posting is VERY important to the people in the GM Marketing Dept. – I hope they are listening.
The majority of people posting comments today ‘really understand’ how the VOLT works, and what it was designed to do, yet even they are commenting today that the ‘masses’ will not consider VOLT if it is under a certain MPG in CS mode.
(pounding my drum again…) The VOLT is NOT an economy car. The VOLT does not work the same as a PRIUS. The VOLT “IS” a higher technology electric car made practical by adding an on-board generator, with performance, comfort, safety and technology features found in luxury sport sedans of a similar price range.
I hope the VOLT commercials focus on the definition of “EREV”, because that is the important difference. “Extended Range” is there when you NEED it, but it runs on electricity all of the time.
You guys are right, if the masses can’t wrap their head around that, it will be a tougher sell.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:41 pm)I asked that very question of my General Manager yesterday. He fired off an email to the Regional GM Rep to see about more details of how that lease program was put together and its limitations. All I can say is, “Stay Tuned”
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:54 pm)Maybe so, cant dispute you since I have blanked out very old stuff, but I know Consumer Reports is not Volt gospel by any means.. the last GM manager interview said something like the CS MPG was on track to meet their specs and he was very happy, but I dont remember the details on that article or the name of the manager.. they are starting to blurr.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:00 pm)What specific new message do you wish to convey to the masses?
Since the plug-in Prius will run on electricity up to 100 km/h then deliver 50 MPG when driving faster, it would seem the only difference Speed & MPG. What else is important or why is that?
After 3.5 years, the “tough sell” is quite clear already. What would you like said about $41,000 price and the 12,000-mile limit to get the masses to purchase?
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:08 pm)If everybody thought the way you do there would be NO market for any car more than $30k. But the fact is lots of people pay more for luxury, performance, prestige etc. The Volt is much nicer than the Prius.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:12 pm)True that, but at this point the Marketing Dept is the ONLY one that can listen. Obviously, the engineering is “behind us”. I *do* think that it will take a lot of education to sell the Volt at this point (post-early adopter phase). The only smile left is that there is time before Gen II arrives (especially with the paltry #’s for year one). Maybe selling every one that they produce will be enough….
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:15 pm)Not to worry. johnboy doesn’t need to think.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Hee hee.
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Re: yesterday’s “CEO Confident of GM”. No question CEO Whitacre has come a very long ways. He listens. And he acts. Whether we agree or not with every decision – and this is a rule I try hard to follow – make a decision and move on. Period. What’s more, not every decision is going to be the best; it can be between moot and bad. The idea is a decision has to be made. The Administration has made its share of bad. Appointing a non-industry CEO with orders to fire all GM Leadership being one. Fortunately, for GM and the U.S. Whitacre made the best of a difficult circumstance and rose to the task. Then the controversial $41k MSRP.
What followed was a rather public outpouring of polarizing GM commentary. The bailout was revisited by Congress. Even Administration got caught up. Somewhere GM slipped up. Certainly
the commentary made by GM Leadership VOLT will be priced in the low 30′s disappointed. A successful IPO will counter a lot of the polarizing anti-GM diatribe.
I don’t know how an IPO can be filed without some disclosure of VOLT’s fuel economy. GM does not have to heel to EPA and DOT’s bungling duties. Of course EPA will try to pass the buck to Argonne and Idaho Nat’l Lab. Tell us to see SAE. Whatever. There are now dozens of VOLT’s available to measure fuel. We know pretty decent the charge times. What’s missing is the ER ICE fuel performance. GM PR can do fuel trials. Let’s take 10 VOLT cars drive from SF to LA or SD and back. Do the same on the East Coast. Make a report and be done with it. If GM needs to further tweak software – fine.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:22 pm)GM is simply saying “Our EV is better than Nissan’s EV” It is called differentiating your value added proposition versus the other guys.
What is false about GM’s statement? If the Leaf is without any juice, it will not go. The VOLT can fire up and go. And let’s just for fun say the dude ran the gas tank dry. Most people still have a gallon of gas in a can for their lawn mower that they could dump in the VOLT. And finally if the guy does not have any gas and his VOLT cannot move, well then I guess Darwin’s thinning the heard steps in.
Bottom line is GM is showing you the value of their product versus the other guy. If Nissan can counter with an add showing the Leaf has a secret emergency only storage cell that will get you to the hospital in time, they should offer that as a Value proposition.
But they don’t, so they can’t.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:22 pm)I can’t argue it won’t happen. I’m sure in some cases it won’t matter how much effort goes into rating it. Some people won’t understand even if you take them by the hand and demonstrate. The tricky part is figuring out how to explain so enough people get it. I’d like to give people more credit for intelligence, but I’ve been disappointed more than once.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:27 pm)A 10-12 mile EV range up to 62 MPH is most decidedly not a 40 mile EV range up to 100 MPH. And 0-60 MPH in 10 seconds is 0-60 MPH in 8 seconds. With the current specs the plug-in Prius is just a “junior” version of the Volt.
Also, as you keep mentioning, when is the plug in Prius actually going to show up in numbers? And at what price? Assuming it carries a premium of a few thousand dollars over the non plug-in flavor I can’t see why anyone would want one. Now if Toyota can match the guys in the garage with respect to range and speed in EV mode then we might have a competitor. As it stands now we really don’t.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:32 pm)Dude — We have 3 cars, 3 teenagers and we only use about 500 gallons per year. You should be ashamed of yourself if you are using 1,000 gallons. We ride our bikes to school and work whenever we can between April and November in Wisconsin.
1,000 gallons??? Give me a break… If you want I will advise you on how to reduce your consumption.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:33 pm)Agreed. Would work well and for longer trips with a bunch of people you could just rent something big enough for the task.
Personally I don’t mind GM talking about the advantages of a range extender, it’s just the tear jerking stories involving sick children that seem over the top. I mean don’t GM employees have neighbors? I could borrow any number of cars in an emergency like that.
A simple: “drive without gas every day, and know that you have the security of the range extender when you need it” would work better. Even a “never be stranded with a flat battery” works better. As you spin out these odd scenarios you invite more scrutiny which the scenarios don’t stand up to. IMO the more realism the better.
+6
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:34 pm)I would start with the differences in the powertrain. The Prius operates in the same manner as the GM Two-Mode Hybrid System, so it is not an all-electric running gear. Beyond 4 miles-per-hour that gas engine fires up. The Prius electric motor has half the horsepower of the VOLT system (less performance), it’s smaller, less comfortable (from reports by nasaman and others who have actually driven the VOLT), and ‘fuglier’ to be sure.
I love how Toyota fans want the VOLT to be dragged down to the Prius level for comparisons instead of comparing the VOLT to other small sport sedans in its own price range. That will continue even after the so-called Plug-In Prius comes out. And when it does, it will still be a smaller, less comfortable econobox that is trying to ‘be more like the bigger and better designed VOLT’.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:43 pm)This is good work. You might want to reverse the order, putting the best sample of using no gas first, and you might want to have numbers for the commute in the headers, but it works well and gives a good idea of the advantages of EREV. Nice job.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:48 pm)I can certainly dump all the vehicles where the engine is connected to a gearbox that directs power to the drive wheels into a single category. Why not? Sure, depending on the details of the transmission, CVT, 2 speed, 4 speed, 6 speed, whatever, the mechanical friction losses vary, but are present. With the engine not connected to the wheels those losses aren’t there. It’s the performance of the engine/generator and electrical losses that are the main concern. Is it less, more or about the same? We don’t know. We all have SWAG opinions.
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:53 pm)Careful, DonC. Yesterday I was beaten soundly about the head and shoulders for voicing anything that might diminish dog-eat-dog competition. (LOL).
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:54 pm)“There was a guy on the news last night that said he drives 35 miles to work and back, he’s had his Volt for 3 months, and still has most of the gas that came in the car. How could that be?” “A guy at work said Volt has an electrically powered refinery on board that tops off the tank while it’s plugged in.” “A lady on the day before tomorrow show this morning said basically the same thing. Maybe we should go take a look at the Volt.”
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:55 pm)So much for an attempt at constructive. Oh well. You do have a point for the test-drive experience anyway. Of course, that will reveal acceleration all the way up to the maximum without the engine starting. Horsepower is a hard sell for the mainstream. The size comment doesn’t make any sense. And for comfortable, that’s basically impossible to convey either way via advertisements.
.
Sports sedan? Are you saying Volt isn’t intended to be the 21st Century version of the mainstream family car… that it really is expected to become a niche, like Vette or Camaro?
Prius is the Corolla/Camry replacement. Who is the market base for Volt?
-6
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:03 pm)To be a “game changer”, mainstream purchases much change.
The luxury, performance, prestige market is a niche. Well earned & served, nonetheless, not what the masses have been purchasing.
Less and less, Volt is moving away from that bread & butter audience where the bulk of on-going production & profit comes from.
+6
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:06 pm)I left out the best comparison:
The 9-gallon tank of gas in the VOLT will last 2 months for our family’s driving patterns.
The Prius uses gas every time you turn it on.
The VOLT is not about ‘miles per gallon’. It’s about ‘gallons per year’.
I expect an 80% reduction in gasoline usage.
That would never happen in a Prius, even if I did like tiny econo-wedgie-box cars.
Combine that with having a larger, more comfortable car… Yep. I’ll take a VOLT.
You don’t get that. You’re never going to get that.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:10 pm)And it gets even better. I bought my Prius in spring 2008. It was then that I started reading about plugging in cars and informed the Toyota dealer I would buy no more vehicles until I could plug it in. In that same year, Toyota started testing plug in Pruis’ in California and I kept waiting for word of results…and waiting…and waiting… Considering that they STARTED with an existing platform, their progress has been, well, glacial. Here we are, GM taking orders (on a car that was on the DRAWING BOARD when Toyota started with its CA experiment) and Toyota is (hand over eyebrow, neck turning from side to side)…making claims. Between that and recall situation of this year, I have no faith in Toyota to deliver on anything at this point.
-6
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:10 pm)THAT’S THE POINT !!!
You get a worthwhile MPG boost at a modest price. Toyota’s design wasn’t intended to offer maximum performance like that. Motor & Battery size is a choice. Reaching the widest audience with high-volume production was a goal. Remember the 1,000,000-per-year plan?
After all, how often is Camry or Corolla noted for specs like that anyway? Yet, sales numbers are quite large worldwide.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:17 pm)I continue to be amazed that people actually continue to try to reason with johnboy. Just minus one and move on.
Be well,
Tagamet
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:19 pm)Remember, that testing you heard about was with NiMH batteries in tandem. They had to wait for lithium prototypes to work with just like GM did. The also had a generation upgrade in the meantime.
Li-Ion production setup is slow. None have cranked out any volume. Yet, we are seeing a few on the road finally. I’ll be driving one later this month, in fact. So, they are coming.
Getting the price down is a hugh barrier. GM choose to just sell at the premium instead. Toyota is working toward a lower price for the battery while optimizing the platform itself via real-world experience in the meantime. The approaches differ dramatically.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:23 pm)Is that what you’ll do with reviews that say the very same thing?
My providing of debate practice prior to rollout is an opportunity to refine rebuttals.
Do you really think cheerleading alone will result in huge success?
+7
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:27 pm)Here’s a ‘game changer’ for you:
I checked out your website. Plenty of data to work with.
You claim to have owned 2 Prius models and over the past 11 years you have driven 178,012 miles (between both cars) and used a total of 3,795.45 gallons of gas.
So, you averaged 16,183 miles driven per year, which is 44.34 miles per day.
If you had owned a VOLT for that same time period, knowing that the first 40 miles per day is 100% electric, then you would have used gasoline only 4.34 miles on average per day.
Work out the math: You use about 345 gallons per year in your Prius.
The VOLT would have only used 46.59 gallons of gas with the same driving pattern.
Get real my friend. The VOLT is far “greener” than your silly Prius.
-8
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:32 pm)What is the emission rating for Volt?
How much electricity production is still from dirty coal processors?
Also, I find it intriguing how you disregarded the 2010 data. Why?
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:35 pm)Minnesota winters are quite harsh. What is Volt’s efficiency when running the heater on a slow commute with tempertures well below freezing?
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:41 pm)Here we go with the ‘electricity from coal’ argument!
You just can’t stand being hung with your own numbers.
That’s okay.
The Prius is fine for many people.
The VOLT is fine for many people.
You’re not going to convince anyone here that the Prius is better.
Take the rest of the day to throw out more arguments like ‘harsh winters’ and ‘dirty coal plants’… I’m going back to work now to take more VOLT orders.
Boo-YAH!!!
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:47 pm)You can’t just subtract 40 miles from each day. It actually varies quite a bit. The 365 days of real-world daily-driving data being collected clearly shows how unrealistic such generic math is.
Ignoring the effect the heater has on range isn’t realistic either. In the dead of winter, range will be less. Too make matters worse, the slow down caused by the snow & ice will extend the drive time which will further reduce available range.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:51 pm)My attitude about Toyota is pretty much where my attitude had gotten with GM several years ago- so successful they could afford to be smug. I tried to find a headline, but for now, this quote from the WSJ will have to do, “Although Toyota plans to broaden its line-up with smaller, fuel efficient vehicles and electric vehicles, it says it hasn’t wavered from its belief that gas-electric hybrids will form the core of the company’s long-term powertrain technology.” (from 1/11/09).
When I wrote corporate Toyota about the need to head towards plugin technology, I got no response. I tried directly AND via dealership. If Toyota ever does get onboard the REAL EV train, they’ll be playing catch up to everyone else out there. Until something with the Toyota logo has an EV powertrain (and actually is for sale), I will remain highly skeptical. Right now, the only thing I would buy from them would be a spare part.
(Do you know the Toyota dealership service department didn’t even carry the 0W20 oil that my Highlander Hybrid owner’s manual recommended? I wrote Toyota corporate and got a ‘too bad’ response. Toyota??? YUCH!!!)
Aug 8th, 2010 (3:02 pm)/signing off
Aug 8th, 2010 (3:28 pm)May be EPA has too much problems in determining
X miles on full charge of battery wont work as battery is not standard size. Another problem is if say miles/kwh then again its a problem because half of the battery is not used because life cycle issue.
And on CS mode – with battery and without battery power mpg may wary.
But we need a useful standard
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (3:40 pm)If CS mode is 40 mpg, then your scenario of 40 miles EV and 10 miles CS would give a blended 200 mpg (50 miles / 0.25 gallons). 46 mpg in CS mode gives 230 mpg in this blended cycle. Keep in mind though that this test cycle GM ran is the easiest available; the EPA cycle is much more demanding.
As an example of how much difference the cycle can make, Prius in the easy Japanese cycle hits 90 mpg, but 50 in EPA.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (3:47 pm)Very clean table, but the EV range is ymmv, and will be less than 40 for just about everybody.
The implicit promise of 40 EV miles is wrong.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (3:58 pm)It is also about cost per year.
Massage the message all you like, $41,000 is a lot of money to spend on a car, perhaps a second car, for all but a few. I haven’t even bothered to mention that the Volt may have 1/2 the life expectancy of a regular ICE or hybrid, and now we are talking about a $81,000 secondary car.
What can I say, once the initial feeding frenzy is over I honestly doubt a sustainable market for the Volt will be available. I would like to be wrong.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:03 pm)You state that almost as if you know it to be true. What is true is that that is your opinion.
We’ll all find out soon what the real world mileage and EV ranges will be, under various conditions.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:07 pm)I’d like you to be wrong too. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:13 pm)1000 gallons/year * 20 mpg is 20,000 miles per year. I’m not even sure EVnow has hit the family median in the US. However, ideal use of a volt charged once daily and hitting the unrealistic 40 EV miles a day only covers 14,600, or 73% of his miles, leaving 260 gallons of gas consumed.
Anyway, these sort of comparisons end up being rather relative. My family of 4 uses about 250 gallons a year of petrol, so your 500 sounds equally outrageous from where I stand.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:17 pm)This may come as a shock to many on this forum so brace yourself…….
There are millions of Americans that live in cities and don’t own a car yet raise families, buy groceries, AND obtain healthcare (emergency and non-emergency) when they need it.
Where is this crisis of latchkey kids and parents unable to obtain medical care because they do not own a car?
There is a large population in America and elsewhere that live in/near large cities or in self-contained communities (villages) where not having a car IMPROVES their quality of life, health, and financial well being.
Take a moment and think about how our quality of life has not improved because everyone thinks they must have a mobile phone to use at every possible moment (restaurants, movies, bathrooms, trains, etc.) in their lives and rationalize the $60 month bill because their son Bobby “may” choke on a piece of candy.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:28 pm)If you are wondering if I have a Volt in my driveway, then no
But I have years of experience driving in EV, in a lighter car with a *very* light foot and pretty good anticipatory skills to avoid braking. Oh yeah, and with the AC off. 0.2 kwh/mile is not an everyday everyman yield.
Even if you doubt me, the fact that only 40 miles in EV were obtained in the easiest test cycle available in the US should hint strongly where typical users are going to end up in daily driving.
I expect a median of 30 EV miles with an SD of 5. <— THAT is a guess. But hopefully an informed one.
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:33 pm)First contact with a Chevy dealer here locally was about 3 months ago. This was with a salesman at the front door. He heard the word “Volt” and introduced me to another salesman who was the Volt sales guy. I spoke with him and started to get technical (of course). Asking about specs, options, and delivery. He introduced me to the ordering manager who has been my only contact at this dealer since. The manager recently sent an order number and said I am 6th in the pipeline at his dealership. The first Volt to be delivered to his dealership is the demo car, “In November”. He says, “This is the car the service people will learn on and the one that will be used for demo drives”. 6 or 7 production Volts will arrive, “In late December”. With 6 to follow in the few months following.
The other local dealer has a list of perspective buyers with just one being a “sale” because of the $5000 deposit prior to the release of the MSRP. The others will be called, one after another, to decline-lease-or buy.
=D-Volt
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:42 pm)I kind of doubt people think this way, but if they do, consider:
$30k became $40k. 67% of hoped for delivered;
50 mpg becomes 34. 68% of hoped for delivered;
40 EV becomes 30. 75% of hoped for delivered.
0.75*.68*.67 = 3*2*2/4*3*3 = 1/3rd the car of initial expectations driven by GM messaging. I suppose this over-promise under-deliver approach to marketing benefits from high interest and wide coverage, but the ‘managing expectations’ phase must be a real biyatch. I suspect the marketers just have to rely on very poor consumer memory, or malleability to changing message.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:46 pm)I was just stating the obvious. Can you point me to a link where they actually tested a Volt’s EV range on the easy EPA course? I’d like to read that.
TIA,
Be well,
Tagamet
BTW I “upped” your -3 to a -2.
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:46 pm)I am completely in favor of “to the death competition” — between cars that use oil and those that don’t! Otherwise not so much.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:57 pm)The Prius certainly advanced the MPG standard, but EVs aren’t about getting higher MPG. They’re about driving in EV mode and not using any “G”.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:00 pm)True, the EPA testing for an Accord, Jeep, or F150 includes a dyno run to define the listed MPG. With cars like the Mitsubishi i MIEV, the Nissan Leaf, and the Chevrolet Volt a dyno run really doesn’t help clarify the question. Why they ever blurted out 230MPG is beyond me. Actually felt sorry for CEO Henderson as the “What do you mean 230?” questioning was going to be intense.
Im sticking with 42 MPG CS until we actually have real driver with real road feedback. As we wait for the first Volts to arrive. Reflect on the nature of this car. Peppy performance, NO gas for the first 40 miles, quiet beyond current measurable standards, and 104 MPH top speed. This is a huge leap forward into the future. A new driving experience.
=D-Volt
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:01 pm)G= gerbils? (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:08 pm)Tagamet,
The LA4 cycle was used. A summary description from
http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=731 is
A nice graphic of the cycle can be seen on the page linked.
I have read through the years that this was the cycle used, but I cannot find a convincing link at the moment. Incidentally, the Leaf was tested on the same cycle, from whence the 100 mile range originated.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:09 pm)C’mon, this is the way it works. When a new product is a glint in the engineers eye it’s “the bomb”. As it actually takes shape it turns into something else and the price always goes up. If you doubt that just look at the early claims for the Tesla Roadster. Or look at Fisker. Let’s not even talk about Aptera. Coming in with 2/3rds the results isn’t too shabby actually.
I think you’re simply wrong on the range. The EPA cycles are what they are, and they are the same for all cars. Arguing that the Volt won’t get a 40 mile range using a US06 drive cycle may be accurate but it’s like arguing that the Prius doesn’t really get 50 MPG combined because if you use some other cycle it would get less.
I’m very confident the Volt will have a 40 range on these drive cycles. It may exceed 40 miles but it’s not going to fall short. Some of that may be due to better engineering. During test drives in city driving of the Nissan Leaf people have been using less than 100 wh/mile. And I think the GM engineers have a couple of tricks up their drive train sleeves. But the main point here is that companies like Nissan and GM bring a lot of expertise to the table, so experiences with older EVs from smaller players may not be entirely predictive.
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:14 pm)Did you see that the Brits have a car that runs on nothing “butt G” ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7929191/Bio-Bug-Car-run-on-human-waste-is-launched.html
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:18 pm)This may be the most important development since the BIG BOOM! Hope it passes the sniff test.
=D-Volt
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:19 pm)You’re simply mis-remembering. GM has been consistent that the Volt will have an EV range of 40 miles. That’s on both the current EPA city and highway cycles, and it may include the cold start and US06 cycles as well.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:24 pm)There are several members of Congress who could power one of these for years with what they spew….!
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:30 pm)(One more! One more!)
Who knew Taco Bell would rise to be Great Britain’s fastest growing energy producer!
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:31 pm)Not me, that’s for sure. I’m just *finishing* 10 years with my Audi sedan
But I do provide one confirming data point that many of the early adopters for the Volt would otherwise typically by looking at luxury German sedans and the like. I decided in 2008 that my next car would be electric, and I’ve only gotten firmer in that conviction since then. 2010 is when I’m up for a new car, and the other manufacturers are later to market, so helllooooo Volt!
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:40 pm)CONGRATS!
Be well and keep us posted,
Tagamet
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:41 pm)Your lack of understanding of Prius shows. Prius is both Series and Parallel. It is a split hybrid that inherits the best of both worlds.
Prius has planetary gearsets but NOT a single clutch. Volt has a planetary gearset and clutches. How Volt will use them will be revealed later, probably together with the MPG in CS mode.
Everything you described regarding the benefit of Series hybrid is also in Prius. On top of that it can delivery power directly to the wheels by mechanic path. As I stated before, the best of both worlds.
-6
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:46 pm)I disagree with this. Volt doesn’t have Smart Key System, LED headlight, Solar Panel, Sunroof, Radar assist Cruise Control, Crash assist, nor Lane Keep assist features.
BTW, you can get a Prius with those features and still $10k cheaper than the Volt.
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:49 pm)Going by your logic Volt’s 40 miles EV compared to Nissan Leaf’s 100 miles EV would make the Volt just a “junior” verion of the Leaf.
EV range does not define how advance the vehicle is. It is how you use it. If you have two power sources, do you blend them or let one piggyback ride each other?
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:52 pm)“Nice” is one of those really squishy terms. Have you driven a Volt? It certainly means different things to different people. Are you sure the Volt doesn’t have a Smart Key system? The one in NYC didn’t have an ignition key.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:56 pm)In a recent demo drive video in the Volt. One of the GM development team mentions, “You need the fob in your pocket. Hold the brake pedal. And push the engine start button”. The driver can air condition (or heat the front seats) of the Volt and unlock the driver door via smart phone. This is pretty smart.
=D-Volt
-7
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:58 pm)PHV Prius can be utilized the same way as the Volt. It just depends on how far and how fast you need to accelerate in EV.
BTW, 40 miles EV does not cover all trips, just 75%. If you really want to not use gas, buy a real electric car.
If you want to “save” gas, buy 3,000 gallons and dump it in the ground (return it back to earth). That’s the amount Prius will use in its life time (less for PHV Prius). Doing that is still cheaper than buying the Volt to save gas.
I don’t expect everyone to consider the economic of being green. Some people do but nobody does it at whatever the cost. The benefit and cost has to balance out. You need to think if the Volt is going to far to save too little gas.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:03 pm)A bit more data, concerning energy consumption by distance: Tesla shows this chart
http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/Inefficiencies.png
for the upcoming Roadster. Note that 75 mph is about 300 wh/mile, or 26 miles on 8 kwh. The Volt will have more drag and be heavier.
Driver habits determine whether higher fuel economy is seen in city or highway driving. A pretty good rule is that Light feet do better in the city, heavy feet on the highway.
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:04 pm)So are you going to buy the real EV? 40 miles EV is only good for 75% of the commutes. Every 90 days, you’ll use gas with the Volt as well.
-6
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:10 pm)Prius gen2 (0.26 Cd) consumes 269 Wh at 75 MPH. 60% of the energy loss is due to pushing through the air. Gen3 Prius has 0.25 Cd so it should be lower. If I recall, Volt would have 0.28 Cd.
http://privatenrg.com/#Bill_Moores
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:11 pm)Sounds great. Where can I buy one of those?
Be well,
Tagamet
-6
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:15 pm)Nope, I stand corrected.
There is a difference in how the door handle operates. Once you grab the Prius touch sensitive handles, the car will unlock before you start to pull the handle. The same is true for all Lexus systems.
For Nissan / Infiniti system, you need to push the button on the handle to open the door. It is not touch sensitive.
Anyone knows how Volt’s door handle react?
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:16 pm)The VOLT is/was/originally designed to be a benefit for ‘about 75%’ of daily commuters. Nobody but Toyota and Nissan fans ever said it is trying to be all things to all people.
And guys, drop the ‘cost-benefit’ argument. Going green is not cheap. It costs thousands to Solar-Electrify a house just to save pennies. And it takes years to get your investment back. Most of the time, going green is just a matter of choice, not cost savings.
You guys keeping beating the ‘price horse’ to death. Mercedes is coming out with a Hybrid-Electric, Lexus has Hybrids, I’ve read even Porsche is coming out with a Hybrid car. Just because YOU can’t afford a $41,000 car does not mean other people don’t buy them on a regular basis. Our dealership is right next door to Mercedes and they keep selling cars with no difficulties.
I plan to get my wife a VOLT on the special lease program because $350 per month, even before the sales tax, is a great deal on a $41,000 car that saves us at least $100 per month in gas. After 36 months, I’ll decide if I want to ‘buy it’ for myself or just get the Gen 3 model VOLT.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:20 pm)When it is done beta testing privately, not out in public. Basically, when it is ready for mass production and engineering is complete. You won’t see PHV Prius without AT-PZEV with short (relative) warranty, limited availability and high price.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:24 pm)OK, one more data point before I overstay my welcome:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CDwQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.cnet.com%2F8301-11128_3-10308235-54.html&ei=VDtfTIObGcH6lwe6u9SZCA&usg=AFQjCNEzrHhLUed1IzlQVtu4SauzT_my9w&sig2=zYV4DLq1-bf2bXkKa8QDdw
250 wh/mile in the EV1 at 60 mph. Remember, the EV1 was lighter than the Volt. If memory serves, Cd is about the same in the two cars.
SeaWolf, I think your numbers for the Prius are right. The Tesla had AC running.
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:24 pm)Do you think that Gen 3 will be out in 36 months??? I’d have been happy if Gen II is out by then. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:27 pm)I’ll wait to see it IF it comes out. WHEN will that be?
Be well,
Tagamet
-9
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:36 pm)The Payback for hybrid premium was never dropped for Prius. Prius held the ground and proved that you can be green and still cost less beyond the initial 5 years. You can lease Prius for $189 per month now. Volt will cost you $350 per month. When will the Volt’s plugin premium pay back?
Going green is not cheap but the real question is how expensive will it be?
If Gen2 or Gen3 Volt is much cheaper than Gen1, I’ll feel really bad to those plan to buy Gen1. They will get punished for being early adopters.
Remember, the first Prius was sold for $19,995. It was priced to reach mass market. Gen3 Prius now starts at $22k due to inflation. The car kept on improving through multiple generations. GM is taking very different approach with the Volt. I see this strategy as not being constructive because they are screwing the early adopters.
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:40 pm)Toyota touch door handles are a bit much. Do these work okay in icy conditions? Gloves okay? I like the smart phone unlock system and heated leather seats on the Volt.
Wish you the best with your Toyota-line further up the road. Let me know when you get an MSRP on the 2012 plug-in Toyota. If a plug-in Toyota can achieve under 10 seconds on a 0-60 run. And MSRP under $30k. The contrast between the Toyota system of gas with electric assist. And GM’s electric with gas assist. Will offer consumers a very good choice in reduced oil use vehicles.
=D-Volt
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:43 pm)From what I have read, Toyota said it will offer PHV option as 2012 model. Pure EV based on iQ platform is due that year as well. They are just not talking / hyping.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:48 pm)off topic
AP Sunday afternoon:
Gulf shrimpers pray for good season amid oil spill
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100808/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill
=D-Volt
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:51 pm)This is my lead contender for now.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:52 pm)God willing, we’ll see.
Be well,
Tagamet
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:54 pm)Yes, it works well under all conditions. It has been available since Gen2 Prius (back in 2003). It has been available prior in Lexus so this is a very refined system. I love it and a lot of owners love that feature. I am sure Volt owners will love it too since you won’t need to take out your keys and will wish your house door are like that. Trust me.
From the powerpoint presentation slides I have seen, Toyota is will offer PHV Prius with different options, price ranging from $27k to $32k if I recall. The reason is because it is the mass market price (high end).
All plugin hybrids start in EV. Some blends with gas engine when required. Some use the battery until it is drained. I think blend approach use the battery wisely, especially for long uphills. If you are at high speed (over 62 MPH), you might as well use the gas engine because it’ll run the battery dry in about half an hour. You would rather save the battery for low speed city or highway jams. The key to synergy is to use each energy source when and where it is best suitable. I think the blend approach achieves it.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:58 pm)Do you meant that iddy bitty thing?
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (6:59 pm)Well, at least you put two coherent ideas together. You are (most likely) wrong here. Why on earth would you believe that an electric car would last half as long? The ICE in this car won’t run very much, so it will last LONGER. And if you are discussing the batteries, everybody and his brother expects these car batteries to have a second life (after about 10 years) backing up the grid and getting you paid by the utility to do so. http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10269723-54.html
I am surprised somebody didn’t jump on your comment sooner. In fact, one question moving forward is how dealer service departments will make money, since there won’t be as many things to go wrong with vehicles. You truly are way off in your understanding. An EV will have MORE longevity, and less maintenance headaches, than a conventional automobile.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:00 pm)Yea, mine too. I already have a gas operated car (Prius) as many other people do. So a dedicated EV with enough range for most of my trip at an affordable price makes a lot of sense.
Nissan Leaf is as big as my Prius. If I can get a smaller EV with longer range and less expensive, this iQ EV will be my ideal choice.
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:00 pm)First, do you have 3 teenage drivers? I have 2 Honda FITS and 1 Toyota Corolla and all get in the 33 mpg overall range. The cars are parked for the most part every summer. We bike every where. In the Wisconsin winter is when they get used. Second, I know 500 gallons is high, that is why I am excited about the VOLT. The majority of the miles are on one car, so VOLT should reduce consumption down to about 200-250.
How are you getting it down to your level?
You and I need to double team on EVnow, that dude is killing the environment for our kids!
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:01 pm)You guys are still funny. I just priced a new Prius on the Toyota site with same options as VOLT — comes out to $35,098.00
You guys always quote the lowest number you can. Even so, you still can’t convince people here to buy a Toyota, even if they did fix the brakes on all of them. Most people on this website want an ‘electric car’ not an old-fashioned ‘hybrid’.
See Post #133 above: Even using that guy’s own numbers, which are very complete and impressive, YOU STILL LOSE the ‘green argument’. No matter what the price of the car is, the VOLT will use less gas overall. It will use more than the LEAF of course, but the VOLT is a more practical solution than the LEAF. “EREV RULES”!!! Hybrids are so “last decade”.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:01 pm)I hope your analysis of the Volt is more accurate than your understanding of PV, let alone solar thermal.
E.g., Total PV hardware today (panels, inverter, and support structure) costs about $1.8 a watt after tax credits. In the SW US where I live, each rated kw returns about 2000 kwh a year, which is worth 25 cents a kwh for the next 12 years, and then whatever the cost of retail electricity is for the life of the array, usually 30 years for the panels and 10 years for the inverter. Investing the savings will ~ double the bank balance over 30 years.
Enjoy the math: Spend US $41k for *maybe* a 10 year car, which is US $123 over 30 years. This will buy 68 kw PV, which will return $34000 a year for the first 12 years, and about half or $17000 for the next 18 years.
I know these numbers look unreal, but they are right if a person takes the installation other than electrical upon themselves.
I prefer honesty without spin:
Volt will probably save oil compared to most cars, but ymmv;
The cost/gallon saved is very high;
Alternative ‘green’ uses of money have vastly higher rates of return, or “bang for the buck.”
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:03 pm)The needs of the consumer are important as well. For example, my workplace is 18 miles from my garage. This allows for one or two side stops along the route under electric energy. My workplace is EV friendly. There are currently just a couple of parking spaces with 120V outlets. I am petitioning the Facilities Department for more. This will happen. Also, my workplace pays employees for using alternative means of transportation to work. This includes: walking, bicycling, scooting, skateboarding, and electric cars. $50 a month is added to the paycheck as a bonus. The Volt is a strong player in Santa Barbara.
Have a good evening all. See you Monday.
=D-Volt
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:09 pm)I didn’t want to say anything ‘cuz when they start makin’ $_it up, it’s just not worth dignifying it with a response.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:11 pm)CorvetteGuy, the Volt *may* use less petrol than a Prius. My personal case demonstrates the ymmv:
My wife drives around town about 150 miles a week;
I drive to work once a week covering 200 miles. No plug at work.
Prius (50 mpg)
3 gallons spent a week by wife,
4 gallons by me
Volt (30 EV, 35 CS)
wife: 0 gallons
me: 4.85 gallons
$41,000 (at least) in a car with half the longevity of a Prius, to save ~ 2 gallons a week ?
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:22 pm)The Volt is heavier. No doubt about that. The rolling resistance will be higher though the tires should have a lower coefficient of friction, so it won’t be linear with the mass. At higher speeds the Volt will benefit from a lower Cd. My guess is that it will also have much lower drive train losses, which are a big deal. Hence my reference to the advantages of more engineering resources.
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:25 pm)The EV1 had a much lower Cd than the Volt — .21 vs. .28. Plus it’s frontal area was smaller. No contest on drage. 250 wh/mile at 60 MPH is very good. Note EV1 drivers tucked behind semis and got far better range. But also note the Volt will use the same number of kWh on the highway cycle as on the city cycle. The EV1 never managed that.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:26 pm)Yeah, they are pretty shameless. I think I’ll stop trying (g). flmark’s been gone for HOURS (lol). Could have used you when there is all this plugin Prius talk.
Be well and hold on to reality – pretty stretched lately,
Tagamet
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:27 pm)You think the Volt has a lower Cd than the Tesla Roadster ?
I’m willing to be convinced: how will the Volt have a simpler drivetrain than the Tesla ? Start from one gear and work down.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:27 pm)Ha ha. See you’ve gotten some good ones in on this. Seems like we have had a lot of gas on the board today. Too bad we can’t use that!
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:28 pm)Everyone’s personal case will be different for the VOLT. That’s the point. The only point you have is the price of the car, which apparently is out of your budget, so why argue about it. Buy the cheaper (but not by much with similar options) Prius. You want a Hybrid. Get a Hybrid.
People on this site are looking forward to better technology in a larger, more comfortable, more practical, and better equipped car. I’ve got used Prius cars (traded in for Chevys I might add…) on my lot that I can’t give away. Tell a friend if they want one of those cheap.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:31 pm)I didn’t see the efficiency numbers.. are those posted somewhere?
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:32 pm)That works out to 32 miles EV per 8 kwh.
This is why I say that the 40 mile EV claim for the Volt is way off for most drivers. By the way, I see that GM now writes “up to 40 miles EV.” When did it change from “40 miles EV” period ?
-7
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:35 pm)So you don’t need 40 miles EV range. Why should you pay the 40 miles EV range sticker price?
If you buy PHV14 instead of PHV40, you’ll always use the 14 miles EV capability. The car should cost less and you’ll utilize the battery pack more often.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:36 pm)I hope the EPA does post their final idea of a window sticker tomorrow. That will keep the butt gasses going loud and strong here then… Later! Clocking out!
-6
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:44 pm)Then we agree — ymmv. Stop claiming that the Volt will always be the petrol saver.
It’s true — I do not spend $41k without a lot of thought and for a damned good reason. But since my salary is about the 98th percentile in the country, I have no debt or mortgage, and my net worth allows me to retire today if I want to, your attempt at the “you are too poor to afford this” jab just makes me laugh.
And you are wrong in saying that is the entire story. Prius has higher CS mpg, a proven track record, outstanding reliability, and a national repair network.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ll applaud every case that an SUV is traded in for a Volt. I just do not expect many.
-9
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:46 pm)You are the one being funny. See post #166. Volt can not have the same options as Prius. It does not have LED headlight, Solar Panel, Sunroof, Radar assist Cruise Control, Crash assist, nor Lane Keep assist features. Plus Prius is a mid-size 5 seater. Volt is 4 seater likely to be a compact car. Volt is a class smaller and lacks “luxury” features. In my opinion (if I may state my opinion), Volt comes with a greenwashing feature that costs at least $20k.
Prius is both Series and Parallel hybrid. It has the best of both worlds so it is more advanced than the Volt, IMHO. It can act like a Volt or Civic hybrid depending on the driving conditions. Of course PHV Prius can plugin like the Volt too.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:51 pm)What are you basing this statement on?
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:53 pm)And what are you basing this statement on?
-8
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:53 pm)Volt is heavy. It is about 700 lbs lighter than Hummer H3. Volt has 23% wider tires than EV1. I don’t think low rolling resistance compound can make up for it.
EV1: P175/65R14
Volt: P215/55R17
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (7:57 pm)If someone’s commute is 18 miles, why should they pay for 40 miles EV premium? Why should the car weight more with the extra battery, even taking up rear middle seat? That’s the point.
-7
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:00 pm)kdawg, re: the EV range look in the last couple dozen posts.
Re: the life expectancy: Tesla tells owners to expect a 100k mile battery life. I sincerely doubt the Volt has better engineering than Tesla, and they certainly have less experience. Prius are hitting 200k miles in increasing numbers by the day without problem.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:04 pm)I may be misunderstanding you, but the Volt is heavier, has a much higher Cd, and a uses higher resistance tyres than the Ev1. So if the EV1 goes 32 miles on 8 kwh at 60 mph, it seems just a weeee bit of a stretch to think Joe Volt is going to get 40 miles when he goes out for a spin on the highway.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:07 pm)I think 40 miles is for City traffic at low speed. It surely won’t be for highway speed. 250 Wh/mile is generally accepted value for “hotel load” (with A/C and heat).
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:11 pm)I drive cars at an auto auction as a part-time job. We drive them through a VERY crowded building where they are bid on. They put initials on the windshield in yellow crayon to warn the drivers about particular issues that that vehicle has. “J” means it needs to be jumped (don’t turn it off), “B” poor (or no) brakes, etc. Last week they started with a new one: “T”. When I asked about it I was told: It’s a TOYOTA, be careful!
True story.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:14 pm)It’s not what I think it’s what is. The Roadster is a brick.
Also, I didn’t say the Volt would have a simpler drive train. I said it would likely be more efficient. Keep in mind that Tesla wanted a more complex drive train, which would have been more efficient, but didn’t have the engineering know-how to make it happen.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:17 pm)^^ That is funny, in a way. I hope for the Volt it is not subjected to similar FUD.
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:23 pm)Huh. It didn’t look like a brick to me
How specifically will the Volt drivetrain be more efficient ? I must not be keeping up, I have not seen any specs at all. In fact all I “know” is two clutches and a planetary gearset which sounds awfully reminiscent of the ill-fated “2-mode” GM hybrid design.
-8
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:25 pm)No, we are on the same page on the hotel load number.
I disagree with you on Volt’s battery life expectancy. Tesla’s pack use thousands of laptop battery cells. That reduces it’s life. Volt use Lithium polymer instead of Lithium ion and the battery management is liquid cooled. IMHO, it is as good as battery management of Tesla’s pack.
Nissan Leaf’s battery pack is air cooled but there is a reason for it. Volt’s battery pack is liquid cooled because it is smaller (16kWh vs 24kWh) and its electric motor is more powerful (110hp vs 150hp). Therefore Volt’s pack need to work TWICE as hard as the Leaf.
I am still skeptical about Volt’s battery pack lasting longer than 8 years / 100k miles. That’s 2,500 recharge cycle @ 40 miles per charge. My BlackBerry also use Lithium polymer battery and it only last about two years. It rarely goes below 50% SOC and I regularly recharge it. The battery pack now gets hotter as I recharge it and notably hold less charge.
We still don’t know the calendar life of it either. It is unproven and we will find that out.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:30 pm)The fact is that a serial hybrid beats a PHEV like a drum. As compared to a plug-in hybrid, the Volt will reduce emissions by 80% and use 50% less gas. In this regard, with the tax credit you’re paying way less the “Volt premium”, meaning the benefits a Volt has over a Prius, than you are for the “Prius premium”, meaning the benefits a Prius has over a standard ICE vehicle.
http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=457
As for longevity, if anything the Volt will last longer. The battery on the Prius is not actively managed and is generally abused something awful.
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:34 pm)Well I guess if you don’t know what you’re looking for you can’t see it when you see it. The Lotus has a relatively high Cd.
We’ll see what the fun stuff is in a bit. If you “know” then why not share? (Note the “2-mode” has many advantages over the Prius planetary setup. You wanna tow something? You’re not doing it with the Ford/Toyota design).
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:34 pm)The Volt is a brick compared to EV1.
How is the Volt’s drivetrain more efficient than Tesla? My understanding is that they both have a single speed transmission (reduction gear) hooked up to the traction electric motor.
Volt has a planetary gearset and at least two clutches. It is more complex than Tesla. My understanding is they will be used during the CS mode, not the CD mode.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:40 pm)Ignorance is bliss I guess. Or maybe it’s bad math. Charging once a day, if you drive 12,000 miles a year, the highest number of cycles you could get for the Volt in a year would be 150. (12,000/40 = 300 half charge/discharge cycles or 150 full charge/discharge cycles). Over ten years that’s 1500. And it’s not likely you’ll see anything this high.
No idea where you got 2,500 cycles from over 8 years.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:41 pm)We don’t even have an official EPA numbers. How can you say that with a straight face?
Don’t forget that PHV Prius will have ~$3,000 tax credit too. Please don’t give that BS about Prius battery. It has been actively managed since 1997. Prius use 40% of its entire capacity while Volt uses 50%. If anything Volt’s pack will degrade faster.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:44 pm)SeaWolf,
Well, since Tesla only expects 100k miles from the pack we both end up in the same place for it and the Volt. Thanks for the Tesla pack lesson, very interesting.
DonC, saying the pack in a Prius is not actively managed is gross ignorance. Google Prius taxi use for actual data — it is fantastic.
Saying “50% less gas” when the Prius has ~50% better CS mpg is a bit silly, don’t you think ?
And “80% less emissions” is almost worse. What emissions ? What fuel was burned to make the electricity ?
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:44 pm)100,000 miles divided by 40 miles. That comes out to 2,500 cycles.
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:49 pm)Hardly. The Leaf has a longer EV range and no extender. It’s a different class of vehicle. The Volt and the plug-in Prius both have EV ranges and an extender. This is made very clear by the both the Prius and the Volt are subject to SAE J1711 and the Leaf isn’t. The Volt and the Prius are both apples, it’s just that the Volt is a nicer brighter larger tastier apple. The Leaf is an orange. Some people like oranges, some people like apples. But if you like apples you’ll want the better one.
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:50 pm)Aero drag is Cd*cross sectional area. This is why Tesla can say
The Volt has more aero drag than a Prius, so expecting the Volt to have better mile/kwh yield than a Tesla Roadster is hard to imagine.
I would not be surprised if the Tesla has sticky tyres, but it is ~30% lighter than the Volt. I’ll call that a draw, just to give the Volt a hand.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:53 pm)As I more or less pointed out to you, the battery pack is 16 kWh, so using 8 kWh to go 40 miles is 1/2C not 1C. Divide 2,500 by 2 to get the right answer of 1,250.
+6
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:53 pm)The last time I answered this question for you, I was treated to your judgment of “irrelevant.” The time before, when I treated you as the troll you are, you said; “a constructive response would be helpful.”
It is painfully obvious that you are no more capable of finding any response we can make acceptable, than you are capable of finding the Volt concept laudable, or even, feasible.
Go ask your questions in a mirror and leave us alone, already; you asinine Troll.
-1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:57 pm)And what pray tell leads you to this conclusion? (Hint: The Prius has a higher Cd).
But the big issue is that, for the Roadster, in normal driving the drive train losses are greater than the rolling resistance or drag losses.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:07 pm)[Sorry CorvetteGuy, I should probably ignore him like you, but I used to teach Nukes for a living. When we would go off to the classroom, we would often say, "Time to go forth and do battle with the forces of ignorance."]
EricLG, you would do well to actually READ the material on the link provided. 1)It discusses that even when these batteries can no longer run a vehicle, they could actually EARN you money on the smart grid of the future. 2) The battery is warranted for eight years; there are few things you can buy these days that give you that much warranty- it’s a long time. 3) Do you throw out your flashlight when the batteries run down? While the battery may be a large chunk of change, the whole vehicle is not useless when it is time for a battery change. Also, most believe that battery costs will be SIGNIFICANTLY less eight years from now. 4)You are okay with the battery in a hybrid, but not in an EV? The lunacy of that thought is probably the reason CorvetteGuy told me not to bother with you.
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:09 pm)I am glad you acknowledged that Volt is a plugin hybrid as correctly defined by SAE. If you go with GM’s classification that Volt is an electric car then Leaf and Volt are oranges.
PHV Prius has 600 miles range extender but Volt only has 300 miles range extender. Which apple is better? It will depends on one’s preference.
Look at it this way… In order to fully utilize Volt’s 40 miles range, you need to drive more than 40. Only 25% of the commute will be able to get their money worth. The rest of 75% commute will drive less than 40 miles so they are paying extra and not fully using all 40 miles charge.
Shorter EV miles is not a bad thing. More people can use it to fuller extend more often at lower cost.
What car do you drive now? I am wondering because you seem to have a bad case of range anxiety.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:12 pm)Hmmm. Have you ever noticed that you never see usbseawolf2000 and john1701a at the same time?
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:14 pm)I don’t drain my BlackBerry 100% everyday too. Sometimes 25%, sometimes 50%, sometimes 75%. It only lasts 2 years.
BTW, in electrical engineering term, 1C has nothing to do with the number of cycles. 1C means you drain 16kWh battery in one hour. That means you drain at 16kW rate.
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:15 pm)Welcome back, Mr. President.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:16 pm)It’s the EPA’s baby. If some one publicized the EPA rating and it got shot down again, it would look like someone’s bumbling cost GM a great EPA rating, created confusion and destroyed another chance to build goodwill and positive publicity. Need proof – - – ask Fritz what it feels like to greenlight that process.
Much of that is true, though Tesla first wanted a more complex transmission, which was less efficient, to gain higher top end speed to match their supercar acceleration from zero to 60. After breaking every thing that was presented to them, they did an amazing job of designing and prototyping one in house that was a simpler reduction gear. It turned out it was more efficient also, which upped the Roadster’s stated AER.
-6
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:17 pm)Prius has 0.25 Cd and Volt has 0.28 Cd. Which is higher?
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:18 pm)You mean they are twins? (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
-2
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:19 pm)Are you trying to imply something?
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:26 pm)I think Toyota is also running into the same issue since EPA has not finalize it yet. Toyota will be showing average of all 150 PHV Prius real-time MPG on a website. It will contains typical trips driven on real-world roads.
Why can’t Volt do something like that? They have the connectivity.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:32 pm)I saw your explanation to John in the other thread. I posted a response to that. Basically, you lack understanding of HSD. HSD is a Series-Parallel hybrid. It is both Series and Parallel, inheriting advantages of both types.
Without direct power delivery to the wheels and running on Otto cycle, how can it delivery 50 MPG in CS mode? I have provided BSFC numbers to justify my analysis and I expect you to hold to the same standard.
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:39 pm)Please !
usbseawolf2000 is worse than a troll…he’s a cheerleader for Toyota. All he needs is the skirt and the pom-poms. I’m sure Toyota’s CEO Akio Toyoda will send him a check in the mail for his attacks on the Volt – especially after Whitacre publicly shamed the Akio’s Leaf in a recent interview.
Akio Toyoda apparently has not taken this well, and has sent his cyber-trolls usbseawolf2000 and Johnboy, among others, to embarass Whitacre and the Volt. Just take what they say with a grain of salt, and -1 them out of existence.
If they believe the Leaf or the Prius is so great, they can create TM-Leaf.com or TM-Prius.com, and talk about it there. They’re just trolling here, and they know it.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:45 pm)If you need to counter my statements, please do so. Spare the personal attacks. I assure you that I will not stoop that low.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:00 pm)Could of, Would of, Might of. You are dealing in at best far fetched hypotheticals.
I know the battery is warranted for 8 years *or 100k miles*. That is why i have been saying ten, to be optimistic.
A battery in a hybrid is much different that an EV battery. Start with different chemistries, continue with much different power draws, and round up with much different BMS. You might as well say that a flashlight battery is the same as your EV battery. But that you seem to know is not instructive. The differences matter.
Corvetteguy does not like factual information that spoils the sales pitch. <>
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:03 pm)So true. That’s why I still don’t have a cell phone. As for a car, it’s a matter of where you live and where you have to go.
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:03 pm)Reference ?
-7
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:05 pm)Unfortunately all of you will be disappointed by the real mpg during your driving:
1). Under normal conditins, you are likely to get 35-40 miles and about 30 EV range after 2-3 years.
2). No plug at work, so you will use more gas than you might think.
3). The CS mode under gentle conditions is 36 mpg. Under normal driving conditions (local), it is about 27 mpg. At highway speed, it is about 31 pg.
Two things to remember, Chevy Volt is very heavy (40% more than Prius) and it uses a less effienct engine than Prius. Also the hybrid system is mild hybrid, NOT strong hybrid.
The projects is completely bullshitted by top management for PR purposes, any battery expert in an auto company will tell you the design is NOT market oriented and surely to fail under any gas price, but the 230 mpg was conceived by management (strongly opposed by the techincal people) at Warren tech center.
If you don’t believe what is being said here, just wait.
GM is doomed and I just quitted and joined another company. I joined GM in 1992 and had over 15y experiences. Unfortunately due to legal reasons, I can’t disclose more (such as internal documents) to prove what I said. you can either believe me or get disappointed/piised in December!
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:14 pm)So 200 miles on weekdays, all on electricity. 600 miles on weekends, the first 40 of which is on electricity. Total of 800 miles in a week, 240 on electricity and 560 on gasoline. If the CS mode MPG is 33 MPG, your MPG for the Volt will be 49 MPG. Notice that the CS number and what your particular case will achieve aren’t even close to each other. The CS number doesn’t, by itself, mean anything at all.
I’m afraid that too many people will hear 33 MPG for the Volt and think they’d rather have a Prius with 48 MPG on the highway. Chevy’s marketing might be well advised to feature a lot of real-world users that recite “I drive 75 miles a day and my Volt gets 100 MPG” and “I drive 45 miles a day and my Volt gets 750 MPG” and “I drive 35 miles a day and my Volt uses no gasoline at all”.
+4
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:18 pm)My guess is that he “quitted” because of work “conditins”.
Be well,
Tagamet
/night all
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:21 pm)My twins are 18.
They are learning to drive now, but are (reasonably) happy using buses. We support them by getting them to and from the bus stop. My son likes bicycle riding, my daughter … not.
I take public transport to work up to 1/2 of my trips. Sometimes I get lazy.
Combining trips is a personal obsession. Uhh, I mean family affair.
Although we have two cars, 90+ percent is Prius use. Maybe more. Our old Subaru Impreza only gets called to duty to haul the occasional big item.
+2
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:24 pm)When this topic was posted early this morning seemed it would be a slow day for the regulars. What has happened is an aggressive series of anti-GM / pro-Toyota comments have been made. This is understandable because the Volt and future EREV’s are being embraced by people in all areas of the world.
Is it just me, or does post 249 (ex-GM) read with an Asian accent? I am married to an Asian woman and love her family. So nothing against Asians.
=D-Volt
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:32 pm)There’s absolutely NOTHING in this post that would substatiate that you are in any way an ex-GM employee that would have any inside information or data ont he Volt specifics. (not the least of which being your terrible grammar and spelling to the point you come across as being someone not so “domestic” shall we say?)
Just another garden variety Troll to “attenuate” with negatives.
I dunno, maybe go back to the “dum dums”?
Spare us the trouble and go back where you came from
.LB
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:39 pm)miles per megawatt hour? that would make way more sense
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:51 pm)That’s because the Volt and the Leaf use completely different chemistries. The Tesla Roadster uses standard laptop batteries which is why they lose capacity just sitting around.
Aug 8th, 2010 (10:54 pm)The Tesla chart you’re citing.
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:01 pm)I found this
That is none too shabby.
A reminder what all these snippets I’ve posted is about: The Prius, EV1, and Tesla Roadster all consume over 250 wh/mile at moderate highway speeds, which if the Volt could match them would give 32 miles of EV range.
Given the Volt’s much heavier weight, higher drag, and stickier tyres (except for the Tesla), I have little doubt the Volt results will be less. And for aggressive drivers, much less in the city.
+5
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:01 pm)You’re being serious? You think the Prius cust a better swath then the Volt? LOL
Obviously you know very little of wind tunnels. They are like dynos. They say pretty much whatever you want them to. Immediately after the VOLT recorded a 0.28 Cd GM Engineering measured a stock Gen3 Prius in the same tunnel, under identical conditions (as well as an old EV1 they had “lying around”) and the stock Prius at normalized ride-height measured a 0.31. The EV1 recorded a 0.21. There’s an SAE paper documenting the event and disclosing certain “variables” in an attempt to create a standard so that consistancy in these measurements can be established. Look it up.
Listen fanboi, Toyota is INFAMOUS for using whatever “standard” gives them the most advantageous specifications. Like their utilization of the JC08 city cycle for their PHEV AER testing or publishing PEAK motor power as opposed to the normal engineering practice of using constant power specs (or better yet BOTH) like GM and most other manufacturers use.
Even funnier is their (and your) bragging of implementation of an “Atkinson” cycle (more accurately it’s a Miller) when the facts are pretty much ANY VVT engine with more than 40 degrees or more of intake vavle control authority can achieve a Miller/Atkinson pumping phase through simple retard of the intake valve closing. You must simply compensate somewhat with an increase in compression ratio in order to create whatever cylinder pressures you are looking for. GMs been doing it for years as well in most ALL of their VVT engines, they just don’t participate in a “circle-jerk” over it.
Old news… STFU TROLL
WopOnTour
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:17 pm)As for city EV range, drive like the LA4 cycle, or expect less than 40 EV miles per charge. Much less. And don’t use AC or heating, or even less.
-5
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:25 pm)Remind me again which GM cars with these equivalent designs have 50 mpg EPA ratings.
Oh right, none. Well, at least they get 40, right ?
Oh, never mind. None there either.
Prius PHV have been in the hands of journalists/bloggers for a couple of weeks now. 14 EV range is consistently reported. Oh, and 50 mpg CS.
+3
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:44 pm)Seriously, this place has been invaded. I know when I am talking to people on the same wavelength- even if I don’t agree with them, but the voices here remind me of the Exorcist. You were right CorvetteGuy, no point in engaging this rabble anymore. If we ignore them maybe they will go away.
“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.”
/signing off…
-4
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:55 pm)Oh, one more thing wop: the 35 mpg CS mode can be explained by either a lousy ICE implementation, a lousy drivetrain, or high friction losses. If we are to accept your argument that it is easy to make the ICE as efficient as the Prius, what does that say about EV range ?
Well, Prius ICE sends about 12 kwh/gallon to the planetary gear. 12 kwh/35 miles is .35 kwh/mile — or an EV range of 23 miles. Even I do not think the Volt EV is going to be *that* bad, so the ICE just is not that easy to make Toyota efficient.
-3
Aug 8th, 2010 (11:59 pm)GM should have been slapped for even mentioning the 230 MPG figure since the car can’t do it. It’s time to get real and not BS the public.
-2
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:04 am)I think he might be more accurate than we want. I can’t speak for the internal conflict stuff but his numbers aren’t so far out there to be an out and out lie. We will see. I just want to see the Volt on the road so we can learn and do better. I think it’s the right formula.
+4
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:04 am)So you don’t think batteries specifically designed for vehicular use could be better than over 6k laptop cells?
-4
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:06 am)flmark, it could be worse. The only flak you are getting is disputing your understanding of engineering. Imagine if you were invaded by typical GM fanbois:
“ROFL, what are you smokin ? $50k for a lame-arsed tin can that can’t get out of its own way ?!”
“My grandma wants at least 250 horses LOL”
“Any gas you save, send it my way. Bye bye suckerz, I’m off to the track.”
-4
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:22 am)Steve, just in case you are not asking what you imagine to be a rhetorical question:
Could be ? yes. Must be ? no. Might be worse ? maybe.
Battery longevity in an EV is a complicated business. Once you get past differences in chemistry, I gather that the packaging, BMS and cooling designs are extremely important, and we have yet to touch on discharge/recharge dynamics. I’m sure I am only aware of a tiny amount of the physics and engineering complexity.
One simple line like “it’s Li-fly” or “water cooled” or whatever just does not begin to hint at actual performance or longevity. The other piece is that an awful lot about each of these Li-x chemistries is simply not known yet. I suspect that part of the reason Tesla is still using “old” battery tech is that they prefer the devil they know, to a new one they do not. In other words, they are not quick to ditch the experience they have built up.
-5
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:34 am)Be careful what you wish for. You might end up with a happy little clique, but scare away moderates who just want a balanced discussion. In other words, potential buyers.
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:50 am)This statement makes no sense.
The batteries have different chemistries.
+3
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:59 am)You’re absolutely right.
But let’s skip the terminology and get back to your mistake. Are you still claiming that discharging 8 kWh out of a 16 kWh battery represents a full cycle? Or have you recognized your mistake and decided you’d try to change the subject? IOW do you admit that, in the worst case, a Volt driven 100,000 miles will have its battery undergo 1,250 cycles, not the 2,500 you were claiming? Just curious.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:30 am)I don’t know about that, but I do know that in NA the Prius is yesterday’s technology and, moving forward, it’s going the way of the Walkman. The question for people I know who have a Prius is whether they want a Volt or a Leaf. The plug-in Prius Toyota is touting is too little too late.
I’m thinking Toyota knows this, and they’ve hit the panic button, which is the only reason other than insanity I can think of why anyone would embrace Elon Musk and his distorted realty field.
+4
Aug 9th, 2010 (1:42 am)Look you rediculous troll. Granted the Prius is a bit of a wunderkind, but remove it from Toyota’s stable and what do you have? DIDELY SQUAT!
The little shit-can Yaris pulls in 29/36 mpg (city/hwy), the Matrix at 25/31 and the slightly more user-friendly Camry hybrid with nearly the identical SYNERGAY drive as the Prius (albeit with a slightly larger ICE) is getting a WHOPPING 33/34mpg (city/hwy) and don’t get me started on the POS Highlander and Lexus hybrids.
So it’s not like Toyo has discovered some sort of Rosetta Stone or anything, give yer head a shake and come back to reality.
I mean other than the Prius (which many people wouldnt be caught dead behind the wheel of) just WTF do ya got?? (lol other than a “cirlce-jerk”
- Love that WOT!)
Stick a sock in it TROLL!
.LB
-4
Aug 9th, 2010 (5:07 am)You’re wrong.
-3
Aug 9th, 2010 (5:16 am)You’re right.
+2
Aug 9th, 2010 (5:57 am)Eco_Turbo Says
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:54 pm) .“There was a guy on the news last night that said he drives 35 miles to work and back, he’s had his Volt for 3 months, and still has most of the gas that came in the car. How could that be?”
The anti American EPA is spending tons of American Tax dollars to postpone what is already known. The anti American EPA can’t face the fact that GM has done what many a tree hugger has been whining for. That is … build a car that gets well over 100mpg.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:08 am)From the article:
Meanwhile Nitz made clear what should be pretty obvious to all of us by now. “Let me put it simply: If you don’t have a way to plug in this vehicle, don’t buy it,” he said.
He also made it clear it is his opinion that the Volt is a superior solution to the present state of pure electric vehicles.
“(The Volt) is a practical EV for America,” he said.
“The idea that I could come from work and I got a sick kid I can’t take to the doctor because I need to plug the damn thing in just doesn’t play in this country, I’ll tell you that right now,” said Nitz. “We live in a drive-through society that has to have flexibility.”
This really sums it up perfectly. We have lousy mass transit in this country when compared to Europe. We absolutely need flexibility. Sure there are people that don’t require it, but most of us do.
-1
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:21 am)Dude – Why do you drive 200 miles (to/from) work once a week? You should live much closer and bike to work that one day. If you really cared about the environment. Also wtf is this wife driving around town stuff. Get her a Specialized Expedition Bike with Winchester trailer. There should be no excuse for taking a car when a bike works just fine! Shame on you!
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:40 am)A Person With Brains: Two little ones, apparently.
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:01 am)For me, where the Volt really pulls ahead, is in any scenario where you’d be at/near the range limit for the Leaf. A perfect example is the drive out to my girlfriend’s parents house. It’s a 45 mile drive each way, 75% on the freeway. The Leaf won’t be able to make that drive. Even if the RT was 80 miles, I’m going to be thinking to myself “what if?” and take the other car. Well, my other car gets 25 mpg. So a trip that the Leaf “should” be able to make (on paper) ends up costing me $11 in gas.
Use the Volt in the same scenario and you end up with around 75 mpg composite, and less than $5 in gas and electricity.
-2
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:27 am)Both LG Chem (Volt) and AES (Leaf) use Lithium Ion chemistry with Manganese based cathode. Tesla will be using Panasonic cells with Manganese based cathode starting with the Model S. My understanding is that the chemistry is the same but how they are packaged is different. Both the Volt and Leaf use laminated packaging while Tesla use standard latop battery cell packaging.
-4
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:35 am)Sure, I am serious. Does any of my posts sound funny to you?
What’s the SAE publication paper number? Did they mention what the Volt get when it is put in Toyota’s wind tunnel? Toyota has Prius’ 48 highway MPG number to back it up.
-3
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:44 am)I just came to defend Prius for some serious misinformation made here.
-4
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:52 am)See my original post #220. I said “That’s 2,500 recharge cycle @ 40 miles per charge. My BlackBerry also use Lithium polymer battery and it only last about two years. It rarely goes below 50% SOC and I regularly recharge it.”
I was clearly aware of Volt using only 50% of it’s battery capacity. That’s why I said my BlackBerry battery rarely goes below 50%.
2,500 PHV cycles is not the worse case. If an owner normally drives more than 40 miles range, the battery pack will also be used in CS mode.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:56 am)I am not trying to defend the guy but you shouldn’t be telling others how they should live their life, IMHO.
-3
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:07 am)Originally, clearing up misconceptions about Prius was what drew me here.
Lately, the purpose has been pointing out business goals and what mainstream consumers actually need.
Unfortunately, there’s so much cheerleading going on that constructive discussion about plug-in options has become futile.
-3
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:52 am)John, I noticed that too. They play these +1 and -1 games. So I am playing along as well.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:24 am)Looks like long trips in this version of the VOLT won’t work so well. I sure hope CS mileage is over 40. With Regen brakes — that should be doable. Wait — where does the regen go in CS mode?
The dang VOLT v1 costs too much unless you Lease. No, no lease for me. I rack mileage on my primary car.
Its going to take a couple of years to get plugs in parking-lots, stop getting funny looks when you
unravel the extension cord.
So My plan is:
Fork $13,320 for a stripped Fiesta — Wait 3+ years and hope. Get a VOLT going off lease?
Nice low mileage, batteries kept nice and charged… the over-engineered Volt v1 should last.
I feel the v2 Volts may be a better deal than a used v1 ‘tho. It will be interesting* to see what other car makers bring to the party in 3 years.
The Grump hits it out of the park! Voltec was going to change the world. It is changing the world — but will GM Profit?
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:53 am)Yeahh, I guess there is a little GM in me, too. By the way, I am coming back from work right now, using our inter-city rail. I omitted this detail because I do not use it all the time, and I didn’t want to stand out from you “green” folks.
+1
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:18 pm)In reality, I am the “This is America and you can do whatever you want as long as you can afford it.” guy. I happen to be very cheap which is why I we bike more than drive. I generally don’t care about the environment side of this argument. I am an energy independent hawk. But if a guy buys a Hummer and drives it everyday that is his right.
I have fun with the Greenies at work. I work at a place that blows & casts several types of films, laminates them together and prints a circuit. This is sent to several thin film companies for conversion into solar panels. They get bent out of shape because a few guys on the production lines are good Wisconsin boys that love their trucks. The “greenies” drive the Prius or other efficient cars. They piss and moan and then I call them on why they are not riding bikes to work. Well they live out too far, or the would get sweaty,,, yada, yada, yada… Then of course I explain to them about the nice locker room with shower like I and several others do and maybe the exercise will do them good… And of course they are screwed and know it.
I usually shy away from the attacks in this room until I see a real green washer out there. Then I play with them! There are a few and EVNow is one of the bigger ones.
Bottom line is that this is not Communist China or Socialist Sweden. This is America where if a guy wants to dump $60,000 on a big Suburban and its poor performance great and if someone wants the Leaf with all its deficiencies that’s ok too.
Aug 9th, 2010 (8:50 pm)I asked before but did not see an answer. I keep wondering why self-labeled “energy independence hawks” have been driving low MPG vehicles for the past 10 years.
Hypocritical greenies are a dime a dozen, and some are Prius owners. I cannot help but come to the conclusion that the “energy independence” movement suffers from the same.
As for the ‘free choice’ ideology, I embrace it fully, but with provisions that ..uhhh… annoy many people: 1, my rights are limited by the rights of others; and 2, externalities *must* be accounted for and paid in full as close to time of use as possible.
I’m glad to see every Volt sold. From my perspective the car has close to the same benefits to society as a Prius. OTOH, I don’t view the Volt as more beneficial than a Prius on environmental grounds and if fact less so unless home PV sources the car. I conclude the same way about every EV in today’s US grid reality. On a personal level I am frugal (perhaps to a fault) and discount the Volt out of hand because of its cost, uncertain reliability and longevity, and the manufacturer. GM has screwed way too many customers through the years for me to trust the company, and its history of dismantling public EV in the US is a stain I expect them to make amends for before they profit from me.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:40 pm)Well such a strong stance on dirty electricity, next time you cook a meal to eat remember how dirty that meal was you made, or you could be green and starve some.
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:41 pm)Energy Independence from my prospective is going big with new technology Nuclear, like what is being done in Europe. Solar where it makes sense. (Wisconsin not so good here), Wind, again where it makes sense, Hydro — Wisconsin had a project in late 60′s (Kickapoo River), environmentalists shut it down. Sometimes you need to sacrifice a fish or a turtle for the bigger picture. Also, I actually believe in Darwin’s survival of the fittest, maybe that fish would have been just fine with the dam.
Use natural gas for heating the northeast instead of heating oil.
Use genetically modified corn for ethanol. Go to E70 blend.
EREV will come down in cost and performance up. Once you get to a 100 mile battery with a 40 mpg CS mode burning E70.
Tax people per mile driven. If somebody told me I would have to pay $100 per 1,000 miles, I could cut back further. People would be cutting back (also the whole black market fixing odometer business would start hiring!)
Drill ANWAR, Drill Deep Water and Drill East & West Coast. 1 accident in all these years is not devastating. Everyone learned for the next one. Yes I am sure there will be a next one someday. How many people died from this accident, 11? How many have died of commuter train accidents in the last few years. I suspect more than 11. Accidents happen and people die, it is the circle of life…..
Aug 9th, 2010 (9:57 pm)Natural Gas.
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:05 pm)I suggest waiting to find out the total ecological, human, and economic cost of the gulf spill before blithely accepting the next one — which, of course, no one promises will not be even more damaging.
I agree with taxing consumption, as well the the problem of corruption. Fuel tax seems the most direct and least amenable to gaming.
Care to comment on my earlier question ?
Aug 9th, 2010 (10:11 pm)I can’t answer that one… I am cheap so I have my Honda FITs /Corolla. Its like anything, some HAWKS may be true converts others hypocrits.
Personnel perspective, I don’t buy into global warming, its about money. I see buying oil from bad countries as a threat money wise in all facets of life. Not just transportation. Whole domino effect.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:11 pm)LOL, that’s not even clean either, avg stove emits 15 to 20 ppm of Carbon Monoxide while in use. Thankfully there aren’t any Natural Gas TV’s or can openers. We would all croak. Sorry for picking on you, I just thought it was a little biased.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:14 pm)Industry Calculations of electricity uses to sell Gasoline.
To extract one gallon of gasoline (or equivalent distillate): 9.66 kWh
To refine that gallon: 2.73 kWh additional energy.
Total: 12.39 kWh per gallon which does not include additional transportation/energy cost to get it to the gas station.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:24 pm)Actually, that’s the source of electricity here.
The trouble comes from the constant stray from questions. I ask about “emission rating” which has to do with the engine and instead get a response dealing with the plug. In this case, the bias would refer to those emissions (both combustive & evaporative) in particular.
Aug 9th, 2010 (11:38 pm)Well Jimza, we have common ground in thinking that foreign oil addiction is a *really* bad idea. I however cannot accept that local destruction of our land, sea and air is a smart trade-off.
Using less advances both our agendas, as does transition to local clean energy. You may include Nuclear in that category while I do not, but lets drink to wind and solar.
Cheers!
Aug 10th, 2010 (10:09 am)That sounds about right. And of course one man’s hawk is another man’s pigeon.
When I read Volt devotees who rationalize the purchase by emphasizing the importance of less oil use, but are also adamant that they not suffer *any* personal inconvenience, I think “pigeon.” The difference in this forum, for me at least, is the possible willingness to pay so much money, yet not be flexible otherwise. It seems incongruent on the one hand to say $40,000 for my country ? Sure; but 0-60 in over 10 seconds for my country ? Never!
Honestly, I think the answer for the most part is that most of the grand pronouncements are idle chatter, but we will see when it comes time to put down the cash (or take out the loan.)
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:26 am)Volt is no cleaner than Lexus RX450h from the exhaust emission standard category point of view (both are SULEV). The detail breakdown of the amount of gas and particular matters from the tailpipe is unknown as of now.
It will be interesting to see how they compare.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:34 am)If SULEV is known, then the *maximum* possible for each pollutant is defined. Too bad GM does not have a battery they are comfortable warranting out to 150k miles; it would have gained them Prius level AT-PZEV cert
Aug 10th, 2010 (11:52 am)Just a heads up. CARB certified Chevy Cruze Eco as ULEV. Detail break down of the gas and PM are available.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2011/gm_pc_a0061677_1d4-1d8_b4u2.pdf
Aug 10th, 2010 (1:15 pm)Thanks Seawolf,
I need help reading the document: what does STD and cert reference ?
Is this the ICE the Volt will use ?
Aug 10th, 2010 (2:42 pm)Yes, I believe Volt will use the same ICE.
STD the maximum the standard allows. Cert is the certified value of Cruze’s emission.
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:06 pm)Thanks. Found on Edmunds in nice format, the max emissions for each category for both CARB and Fed
SULEV Reqs (grams/mile):
NMOG– 0.010
CO ——1.0
NOx—– 0.02
PM— — 0.01
HCHO– 0.004
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/123901/page001.html
Aug 10th, 2010 (3:14 pm)This is pulled out of Seawolf’s link to CARB:
Cruze (@UL testing)
NMOG—-0.038
CO——–1.0
NOx——-0.02
PM——–.01
HCHO— ?
Any idea how cert is given without HCHO results ?
Anyway, the Cruze meets SULEV in CO, NOx and PM, but fails badly in NMOG.
+1
Aug 10th, 2010 (9:19 pm)HCHO may be too low to detect. A lot of car don’t have that number so it is typical. Below is Prius numbers:
NMOG: 0.005
CO: 0.04
NOx: 0.003
Hwy NOx: 0.002
Aug 11th, 2010 (10:51 am)This is interesting. I assume the “air shutter” in the Cruze has the same effect as the Volt’s fixed/closed grill.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/unique-air-shutter-helps-morph-chevrolet-cruze-into-40-mpg-leader-100396499.html
Aug 11th, 2010 (11:41 am)From live Webchat today at work:
Tony Posawatz: As with any conventional car the MPG ratings vary depending on the HVAC you use, the driving behaviors, terrain, etc. The Volt is no different in that our electric range will vary. The 40 miles that we have quoted represents an average customer (using LA92 cycle). Therefore, with high HVAC usage you will get less than 40 miles, but many customers may get more than 40 miles, as well. In fact, we’re seeing that in many of our engineering test vehicles today.
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (2:13 pm)Here is the full LA92 test cycle:
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/uc.html
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (3:14 pm)This article
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/argonne-study-s/comments/page/2/
summarizes some ANL work looking for best engine control strategies in a PHEV. The piece relevant to this discussion is energy use in the US06 cycle: about 450 wh/mile ! This works out to under 18 miles for a 8 kwh charge.
Who still thinks the median Volt driver will see 40 miles of EV driving from an 8 kwh charge ?
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (3:37 pm)Ahh … I have been in the wrong place. I just found the technical sub-forum, and lo and behold posters there think real-world AER will be 30 miles.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=581&page=2
I apologize for coming into this cheerleader sub-forum.
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (3:44 pm)People claim they can accelerate Volt in EV and drive 100 MPH without the ICE assist, blah blah blah. Ok, if you do that you’ll get like 10 miles range.
It is interesting 18 miles range for the US06 cycle because GM engineers stated that it was very close to the real-world driving.
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (5:14 pm)To put this in perspective, if the Prius consumed 450 wh/mile it would return about 28 mpg. Since 45 – 50 mpg is typical for a “just drive it” kind of person, the ratios work out to 29 – 32 mile EV range for a Volt that has Prius friction dynamics.
+1
Aug 11th, 2010 (6:06 pm)I think you assumed Prius gets 50 MPG at 250 Wh/mile.
Prius gas engine can generate 19.1 kWh from one gallon of regular gas at 230 g/kWh. With 10% drivetrain loss, you’ll still have 17.2 kWh going out the wheels. Therefore 250 Wh/mile would result in 69 MPG. At 450 Wh/mile, it comes out 38 MPG.
For reference, US06 average speed is 48 MPH.
One Prius owner reported getting 39 MPG on a trip including Autobahn with average speed of 51 MPH.
PHV Prius test drive was recorded 70 MPG on 64 miles trip with average speed of 50 MPH.
http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii-2010-prius-fuel-economy/72711-driving-prius-2010-german-autobahn.html
http://www.epa.gov/oms/emisslab/methods/us06dds.gif
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs251.snc4/39877_10150250581055305_711405304_13758743_4978839_n.jpg
Aug 11th, 2010 (6:12 pm)I assumed 12.5 kwh/gallon at the wheel.
There are about 35 kwh/gallon in petrol, and the Prius ICE at best can convert about 35% into mechanical. That is 12.25 kwh
The 12. number came from quick arithmetic and rounding in my head.
Aug 11th, 2010 (7:45 pm)Gen2 Prius has 37% tank-to-wheel efficiency. Gen3 Prius should have 41% (46 -> 50 MPG).
I got my numbers from converting average Gen3 BSFC g/kWh to kWh/gallon.
http://privatenrg.com/WelltoWheel2chart.jpg
It would be great if GM make this kind of data available for the Volt.
Aug 12th, 2010 (11:12 am)37% might be the absolute maximum, but the ICE does not work at its optimum all the time — even in the Prius. In fact, even 35% is asking a lot.
Aug 13th, 2010 (9:22 pm)Finally, a civic sized car that seats 4, has two onboard drive trains and gets 30mpg for comfortably under $50,000 after my dealer bends me over, and I pay tax on it!! Go GM, you go girl!!
Aug 17th, 2010 (3:28 pm)And the result was a LIE. Can I charge it, put 6 gallons in the tank and go over 1200 miles? No? Then what’s the value of this 230mpg number? Nothing more than PR.
It’s not the EPA’s job to do GM’s PR, it’s the EPA’s job to ensure the consumer gets enough information to make wise decisions.