Ed Whitacre is GM’s CEO. He took over last year from Fritz Henderson who had replaced Rick Wagoner who himself was replaced by the Obama administration. Whitacre used to be the CEO of AT&T and was chosen by the government as an ideal candidate to move in and help save GM.
Whitacre is not a car guy, and has had to learn the business on the fly. This may be the formula for his success; a fresh yet experienced outside leader who can drill down and fix the core problems of the company.
Since taking over GM seems to be doing well. Sales are increasing and the company tunred a profit first quarter.
Whitacre recently gave some remarks on the state of affairs at GM. He is optimistic about GM’s future and upcoming IPO.
“There are four keys to our ongoing turnaround,” said Whitacre.
“First, we clarified the company’s focus,” he said. “Design, build, and sell the world’s best vehicles.”
“That’s what we do… that’s all we do,” he added .”Anything that does not support this vision has either been stopped, or is on its way out.”
“Second, we reinvigorated the team and restructured the organization,” he said. “Third, we’re moving faster and smarter.”
Finally he said “We’re making vehicles that people just can’t wait to buy.”
Whitacre thanked the legacies of Henderson, Wagoner, and Lutz giving them credit for the cars coming out today and those in the pipeline that are as “exciting as the ones we’re selling now.”
He also added that GM’s financial success is well underway too. “If you liked our first quarter earnings, stay tuned for our results next week,” he said. The company is expected to file for an IPO this month, and may sell shares later this year.
Bloomberg has reported some of GM future product plans will include a stretched version of GMs European minivan called the Opel Zafira. This vehicle use the same global compact delta platform the Volt and Cruze uses and in theory could be made as a Voltec variant.
Whitacre is also a fan of the Volt and sees it a better option than the Nissan LEAF something he said in an interview with the Detroit Press.
“It’s the only electric car you can drive across the country and never have to plug it in. It’s always on electricity. Nobody else can make that claim and nobody is going to be able to for awhile,” he said. “It’s a new technology. The proof will be in the pudding and we’ll sell more of these things than we can produce. No other electric car can go coast to coast on electricity.”
“So if you’re in a Leaf, when you get to 49 miles out, you better be thinking about heading home — and hoping there’s no hills,” he added.
+10
Aug 7th, 2010 (8:46 am)I wish GM and Mr. Whitacre all the best, especially as it relates to the VOLT. It may be part of his job, but he doesn’t need to sell the Volt by knocking the other EVs (IMHO).
Be well,
Tagamet
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (8:50 am)Just the basics (or should I say fundamentals). That is what will make success for the Volt. That will make success for GM. And yes, that will make success for the USA if we all keep at it.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (8:50 am)I think other EV’s have driven from coast to coast! Including GM’s EV1!
GSP
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (8:53 am)Not without being plugged in (which is what he said)
HTH,
Be well,
Tagamet
-14
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:02 am)(click to show comment)
+6
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:04 am)““So if you’re in a Leaf, when you get to 49 miles out, you better be thinking about heading home — and hoping there’s no hills,” he added”
I get tired of these comments. I love the Volt but this statement isn’t true. Early adopters will buy the Leaf as a commuter car and put on average a lot more All Electric miles than Volt Drivers.
In 5 years when we pass a million EVs on the road(including the Volt) Electric Charging stations will be close enough that being stranded will not be an issue. 80% charge in 30 minutes is inconvenient but it isn’t being stranded. And I’m sure you would be able to do a 20% charge in 5-10 minutes if thats what you needed to get home and plug in.
But Again these early 100 mile EV’s are commuter cars, maybe in 10 years they’ll have pure BEVs that can compete for cross country driving, but thats not what people buying the Leaf the first 5 years will be buying the cars for.
Leaf buyers will be folks that can drive 50-60 mile daily commutes without Gas, something more difficult for a Volt Driver.
+23
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:07 am)Why is an intelligent comparison of the two vehicles “knocking other EVs?”
He’s the CEO of the company that makes the Volt. What do you expect him to say?
+5
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:15 am)While I PERSONALLY would like to see every form of EV take off (especially since it is blatantly clear that GM is also stating that they can’t keep up with demand), I have to disagree with your perspective of a GM CEO. If I have a business perspective, it would be pretty stupid to not expect to see a person peddaling his product by pointing out its strengths compared to others that would steal its customers. I want us off oil and I want it now, but my faith in GM’s success with this vehicle might take a step or two down if I DIDN’T see words that supported the Volt by undermining the Leaf.
+16
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:17 am)A) It’s just my opinion B) Similar to politics, some people run on their merits, and some try to smear the competition (I prefer the former) C) if he was *at all* far-sighted, he might think about when GM eventually launches their own EV – and competitors pull out these quotes. D) Given the “green”/oil independence demographic, he’s not earning any points. I expect him to weigh his words just a little. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
+25
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:21 am)Hogwash.
Anyone who can afford a Volt will know darn well what it is all about. Volt buyers will be very conscientious about saving gas and will plug it in every night.
No dolt will buy a Volt.
+19
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:23 am)RB, I often agree with you but you’re absolutely wrong about this! GM has clearly said that part of the mandatory Volt sales training is to be certain all of their sales force advises customers NOT TO BUY A VOLT UNLESS THEY HAVE A WAY TO PLUG IT IN!
One more thing: Whitacre’s remark that “No other electric car can go coast to coast on electricity” is taken out of context when quoted without the paragraph preceding it. What he meant is that “No other electric car can go coast to coast on electricity without plugging in.”
+7
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:24 am)See #9.
If you really want us off oil, then you’d like to see oil saved at every turn – even by the LEAF.
Be well,
Tagamet
+23
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:24 am)I’m just glad he didn’t scrap the VOLT project when he took over. With all of the cost cutting going on, that seemed to be a logical choice.
I’m also glad Lyle has kept this site going with a new tidbit of news every day. It’s better than the morning paper which only has recession related or government corruption news. And you can only stomach so much of that.
Next year will be a great year for Chevrolet.
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:26 am)Tagamet Says
Aug 7th, 2010 (8:46 am)
I wish GM and Mr. Whitacre all the best, especially as it relates to the VOLT. It may be part of his job, but he doesn’t need to sell the Volt by knocking the other EVs (IMHO).
——–
I think so too. I think that, from his position, he should trumpet the Volt, and let others knock the competition.
Frankly, I don’t think think the Leaf is so bad. It just has to fit into a certain type of driving style, as opposed to the Volt.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:31 am)What’s good for the goose…
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:32 am)While I often question my fellow man’s ability to do the right thing for the right reason, your naysaying is beyond pessimistic. It indicates that you are an arrogant, condescending jerk who thinks he apparently has God like omniscience. There is no point in even debating the merits of your statement as it may have been made just to ellicit a response. If even 1% do as suggest, I would be shocked (no pun intended). The same idiots who stated (after seeing the Volt MSRP), ‘For that kind of money, I could by a Mercedes.’ would INDEED buy one! They would not buy a Volt just so they could NOT plug it in. If you really believe what you just wrote, go back into your cave (with the other trolls) and sleep it off. Come back out in about 5 years when your stupid proselytizing is but a laughable vapor in the mist.
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:37 am)Two wrongs don’t make a……
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:40 am)Lighten up. This kind of talk makes Ed look like a fighter, a competitor. It’s like sports trash-talk. Besides every mention of the Volt and Leaf that gets picked up by the press is free publicity and raises public awareness. I just mentioned the Leaf to a coworker yesterday and he was not even aware of it at all. He was very aware of the Volt, however due to my desktop background which always features something Volt-related.
+7
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:41 am)Point of info here. RB is not a troll, and stooping to name-calling does very little to advance your point. Nice vocabulary though.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:52 am)Yes, and I see all of your points in the big picture. BUT, remember that GM took a VASTLY different approach to the EV concept than all of its competitors are apparently steering for right now. Leaf is just the first in a barrage of pure EVs. GM has taken the gamble/risk that its compound (could we please use this word instead of ‘hybrid’, since that only confuses the issue) concept will eliminate peoples’ (maybe irrational, but definitely undeniable) range anxiety. While it will inevitably later have to espouse the pure EV, for now, it AS A BUSINESS must make its gamble/risk pay off by capitalizing on its DIFFERENCE from the potential thieves of its market. I like having a higher view of all EVs, but again, would you really trust a GM CEO who sounded like some ecumenical DOE rep? Nope, you want GM to succeed by looking like a strong competitor. In the Verizon/ATT fight over whose network is best, I have enjoyed advertisements from both sides. You have to capitalize on your strengths. You (figurative) have to be naive to think you can look good in business by just telling the world to achieve an objective (get us off oil) instead of buying YOUR product that ultimately achieves the objective.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:57 am)Lyle: You have all the contacts and clout, have you asked any of the big car magazines when they will be doing a full road test and review of the VOLT?
If anyone can get an answer out of them, you’re the guy!
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:57 am)I agree that it makes business sense. I was just stating an opinion as to what I like (and no, I still don’t like it)(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
+5
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:57 am)Tag – The 1960′s are over. Getting “mellow” and singing “Kumbaya” around the campfire has been relegated to comedy shows poking fun of the old hippies. I know it may be a real bummer or downer to hear the negative vibrations coming from corporate America — man…
It’s a new world where competition is fierce and promoting one teams strengths while giving a smack-down to the other team is part of the game plan. Everybody does it. As Bob Dylan said; “The times they are a changing…”
Anyway, 1968 called and would like your opinion and phase – “two wrongs…” for their museum. Now don’t be such a drag man. The Love Train has been put on a side track. Time to board the Smack Down train!
+13
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:00 am)…I used to live for threads like this
/unplugs keyboard from computer
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:04 am)Have to COMPLETELY disagree with you here. It is one thing to argue a point and use information to back up your views. It is another thing to make suppositions. And it is ENTIRELY within the troll-like domain to make those suppositions so that the majority of people who spend forty one thousand dollars will do so JUST to use a product against its designed function. Like I said, WAY beyond pessimistic. ARROGANT and CONDESCENDING is the only way I can describe it!
Tagamet, you certainly are playing devil’s advocate today. Who put salt peter in your Fruit Loops this morning?
+4
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:06 am)Once VOLT owners get into the habit of charging nightly on a regular basis; use the VOLT just like their regular car; and take note of how little they actually use the CS Mode; the fact that it has an on-board generator will be secondary if not totally unimportant.
Most people will be in all-electric mode MOST of the time. Just because it can use gas does not mean it will every day.
+6
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:10 am)I not a CEO but it seems like he’s just making rather obvious and vague statements. Then again, that’s not anything unusual. I have to wonder how much of the turn around is really due to Ed and how much was already in the works.
Reminds me of a department supervisor I used to work with. Good dresser and eloquent speaker, but on occasions he had to run a shift instead one of is managers, everything fell apart. Now I really don’t know Ed so I don’t know if he’s a essentially a figurehead or if he’s a major reason for GM’s turn around. This article really doesn’t tell me anything about that and I wouldn’t expect it to. It’s just a PR and marketing event.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:12 am)You are being too negative.. but it would be nice if we had a nice wireless recharger for the Volt and LEAF.
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:14 am)Then I stand corrected. Your vocabulary really *isn’t* as well developed as I’d thought. (g). RB is a long time poster here and although some of our trolls have been here a long time as well, he has posted many positive opinions along the line. Stating an opinion should not make you the target of name-calling (unless it’s johnboy, and then it’s ok)(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:14 am)Does this mean after all that has been written here for the past 3 years has made you a ‘true believer’ that the VOLT will be a great success and lead the car industry into it’s next 100 years of greatness!?
Or did you check the cable channels and found that “Shark Week” is on?
+5
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:19 am)Even if some idiot bought the Volt just to impress folks and didn’t care about plugging it in, he or she will be converted the first time they do. There is nothing like the driving experience of pure EV locomotion. Its addictive and soul satisfying. And I’m sure the CS mode in the Volt is great too but the serene quietness of the pure EV mode will put a smile on your face!
-2
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:26 am)Ha ha. I’ll try and summarize. You have a guy who learned all he knows about business running a government created monopoly and whose biggest positive step was buying ATT from a guy who was fine at Houghes but managed to destroy ATT in just a few years, making it imperative that he sell.
So far Whitacre has preached frugality while awarding himself a $9M yearly package. Impressive and interesting leading by example.
The old GM managed to alienate customers, dealers, employees, and suppliers. It also had a bureaucracy that made the Catholic Church envious. Any evidence that any of this has changed? From a customer standpoint the Volt roll out seems to me more of the same.
The financials are great but given that the bankruptcy cleaned the balance sheet and Lutz & Co. stocked the pipeline, a monkey could have done this.
The mantra of “building the worlds best cars” reminds me of the mantra “Build World Peace” — too vague to mean anything. Next we’ll probably hear that the new mantra is “Make Money”. It’s also hollow. GM says that Cadillac competes with Mercedes and BMW. Have they ever driven those cars? If GM thinks this is the fact they remain delusional.
-4
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:27 am)Name calling? That is the category of a-hole and other terms that don’t define anything except disagreement. I suggest you look up the definitions of ‘arrogant’ and ‘condescending’ and cross reference them to someone who makes predictions of other peoples behavior (without any basis in reason whatsoever) so that that behavior defaults to some ridiculously low level.
Man Tagament, of all the people here, I find it shocking that you are taking opposing positions (or is somebody just posing as Tagament?). Could Tagament really be the one sticking up for someone who supposes that people will buy the first (mass produced) plug-in car just to NOT plug it in? Rod Serling, where are you? I see a sign post up ahead…
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:30 am)statik has always been more interested in BEVs than EREVs. Following that interest he has a site about the Nissan Leaf, and I doubt he has the time to be at both places.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:31 am)LOL, what little I can remember of the 60′s, I remember fondly. Those were my college years and probably the “best” in terms of varied experiences. And yes, I *am* an aging hippie. Some of the things going on, were awful (like ‘Nam), but overall I think was a fine experience. (JMO)
Yes, I know things have changed, and I’d posit that all the changes haven’t been for the better. At this point, I need to trust that the pendulum can stay moving.
Not too sure why folks are so invested in my simple statement of opinion…
Be well,
Tagamet
+5
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:40 am)This is the “real” Tagamet (NO “n”)- the one and only. Check the Gravatar. I’m “sticking up for” a *person* who stated an opinion. I did NOT say that I agree with that opinion. I don’t. Reread my post. RB is not a troll, unless he’s taken Troll U catechism since his last post. I don’t agree with his post, but I don’t agree with excoriation without cause either. Is it so difficult to disagree without being so disagreeable? See? I *could have called you a megalomaniacal ass, but I didn’t need to. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
+6
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:43 am)He’s just saying what anyone who has been here for a while, which is that RB is not a troll. Not even close. Maybe you don’t agree with him but he’s not a troll. Applying the same standards to you, you’re not a troll either, though you can be far more provocative than RB is.
IOW calm down. No reason to flame. If we all thought the same there wouldn’t be any reason for discourse. We could all watch TV and hear a preconceived narrative of our choice.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:47 am)95% of Volt owners who have an available 120V outlet will plug in. Some will feel that 3/4 or 1/2 charge is okay and won’t add to it. Many owners will have issues with the ability to plug in. An example being someone who lives on the second floor of a city apartment house. Many will find city provided “common” outlets.
I fly with a group of RC airplane enthusiasts who often plug-in at the ball field/park bathroom building. There are two city provided outlets right there. And I don’t see my California town getting medieval on us and posting a “don’t charge” sign.
The LEAF comment from CEO Whitacre is not an anti-EV barb. It’s a product comparison. A Samsung TV salesman may say, “This model has an integrated tuner. Sharp doesn’t offer this”. I believe the 45,000 Volts in 2012. Followed by 60+k in 2013 will verify this.
What concerns me is hearing a sales manager state that GM doesn’t plan on selling a million electric vehicles. One can look at this two ways. First, at least GM is being honest with their intent. Second, GM will limit electric production with the intent to sell more Cruze, Malibu, Impala, Equinox…ect.
Two things I would like to hear from GM are: They will continue to build high volumes of electric vehicles as long as buyers are taking delivery. Second, a generic CS MPG number?
The GM IPO will not be issued until later this year. People care about fuel MPG when making a car buying decision. It will be wise for GM to disclose this sooner rather than later. A positive number will add value to the Volt. And get people in the mindset to sell current stock holdings to prepare for the GM IPO.
=D-Volt
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:52 am)THANKS, DonC. I’ve been trying to say that with very modest success (read none).
Be well,
Tagamet
-1
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:59 am)This is a little distrubing to me, I’ve seen a lot of disrepect on GM’s part toward the leaf but not Nissan towards the Volt that’s bad form. I like the Volt it looks better, I think there’s a better market for it right now, for now. Until EV infrastuture catches up or EV range increases, time will tell. I don’t blame GM for rushing to market and cutting corners to claim there right to shine, but where was Whitacre so called savior of GM and CEO when they cut this corner with out thinking of the consumer impact on sales.
Check this out> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128878822&ft=1025 The price is already high , as comsumers have to deal with price gouging, No state rebate and now possibly
no solo carpool lane privileges.
-3
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:04 am)Since the word “success” isn’t actually quantified in any way, I really don’t expect a statement like that to be either.
I’ve collected 51 weeks of daily-driving data now. It clearly shows that unless you drive well under 15,000 miles per year, you’re going to use gas on a regular basis. That’s why knowing CS-mode efficiency is so important. Then you can actually illustrate the anticipated quantity.
In both cases, vague is a disadvantage that’s easy to prevent.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:09 am)There is a double edged sword here with what might happen at the dealership marketing level.
(pardon my catching up with previous threads), so, I’m composing a composite post.
The dealerships set their own MSRP.
It is more important marketing-wise for dealers to give strong credibility to what is going to happen to those few Volt assignments, not so much how much they are going to sell for, (even to consider selling at below MSRP.
This part of our journey will be a strong lesson in marketing and promotion to all of us.
So, do you make a bundle in excess of MSRP and sell to a collector who will promptly place a
car cover on it and locked up in his five-car garage whilst he presses a button on an
“Executive Decision Maker” (radio shack toy) regarding what is the “whim for the day” regarding which vehicle (Porsche, Ferrari, etc.) will best fulfill his ego for the day?
Or, does the “fired up (gm-volt.com) dedicated ‘Volt-guy-whose-been-in-here-for-the-last 3 years ‘ ” get a second part time job (with all the energy and ‘canned-presentation’ to go with it) get the Volt and represent the greatest level of General Motors and American Technical pride that has come along in the last century?
This is what the choices actually are, from what I have seen.
Dealers are business owners too. They have a marketing budget that is far, far, far beyond what any small or large markup on our limited availability is. They want the Volt out there.
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:22 am)I started skimming the discussion, and seems that we have a little tussle going on between the Voltanites.
Statik, stuck a little tid bit in the water, hoping for a few bites. I would love to hear the old Statik take on this article, but I understand his reasons for staying out of the water.
I have no problem with Whitacres claim that the Volt is the only electric that can run coast to coast, w/o plugging in. If your buying the Leaf or other pure EV, you better already know this, otherwise your not, well lets just say…, “Your a couple watts short of a florescent light bulb”.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:27 am)He is in both places. I think it wise for him to stay out of this, since I am sure anything he said could be viewed by some as ripping the Volt and others as a traitor to EV’s, and a combination of both.
So, either way, he would be in a lose-lose situation.
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:32 am)I agree with you 100% about the lose/lose situation for statik, BUT I miss his re-interpretation posts!
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:36 am)Post Script to my 42 above.
You have heard the term “captive audience” have you not?
With the Volt, the entire World is going to be your **respectful audience**.
Indeed, you may be the **”captive of the audience”** instead.
An excited audience. A dedicated audience. An impromptu’ audience anywhere
at any time.
Many may have noticed my changes in writing style down through the years.
The audience you write to and speak to can be widely diverse (“wild and woolly”)
as this site had really been, quite a while back (and, thanks to Tag for managing all that quite
well, and who ought to somehow be materially-recognized IMO).
But the flow of the commentary on the site in the last few months was one of gradual intellectual unification in interest and respect as the release date nears.
Who will keep up the good work? Who will relentlessly maintain this drive?
While talk is cheap and entertaining if not informative often, what happens after the
sale?
Definitely for you technicians with any emblem on your uniforms that confer technical awareness, your new part time job is automatically waiting for you if you are able to get a Volt.
I visit at least 8 shops a day, then about 5 other non-technical destinations in the Element.
(I was politely/humorously chastised by the loan officer when I brought the buyer for it into
University Federal who ok’d the loan for the buyer of it, as he asked, “Dan, what are you doing going nearly 100,000 miles in 5 years?” lol).
So, as hard as I am working to not buy another computer system yet (saving the bucks for the Volt down payment), I know it will be easy for many many others of us here to show their dealership reps that they can indeed promote Chevrolet and the Volt in exceptionally-successful ways over the long term in a strongly consistent manner.
After all, we have been here for about 3 years now, have we not?
+7
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:42 am)You are correct, sir! And I agree with you. The VOLT will never be 100% gas-free like the LEAF. It never claimed to be. For some reason there are a few who believe that the VOLT is trying to be all things to all people. I’ve been following this site for 3 years and I do not know where they got that idea.
I know that the LEAF-huggers like to insist that because it has an on-board generator that uses gas, the VOLT is a failure as an electric car. I disagree. It is a high-er tech electric car than the LEAF that most people would be more comfortable with, “just in case” you need to drive a little further than you had planned on any given day. I would not want my wife calling me from the roadside telling me she ‘thought’ she could make it home but ran out of charge… But there will be tens of thousands of city dwellers who really don’t drive much that will LOVE the LEAF and not using any gas. More power to them.
The LEAF is going to sell VERY well. So is the VOLT, but to a different market segment. And I believe both cars are going to cut into the sales of the PRIUS.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:43 am)Yes that’s right. But he’s basically saying buy our electric car and not theirs because ours is better. I don’t see what he said as much different than the LEAF fans dissing the Volt because it has a gas engine on board. Nissan’s tagline Zero Emissions is often used as a jab against the Volt whenever Volt/LEAF comparisons are made, so I guess Whitacre is just following suit.
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:48 am)It’s definitely been an interesting experience watching this site “mature” on so many levels, while still attracting such a *diverse* group. Thanks for the kind words, but I’m just another poster here (maybe *too* vocal at times)(g). Almost *regardless* of how this all plays out, it’s been a real opportunity for growth.
Be well my friend,
Tagamet
-3
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:53 am)—
Calm down, no one has said anyone is a dolt. Personally I think Volt is a very nice car, and if someone has the money and prefers to use it primarily as an ICE car, with an electric backup, that plan seems fine to me. Not everyone’s primary interest in Volt is technical.
Being realistic, one knows that it takes a fair amount of time and trouble to get a charger and charging system set up for nightly use. Using it will get tiresome, and many will stop plugging in every night. Committed people, and that likely includes most people posting here, will do it and maybe even enjoy doing it. My expectation is that for a larger number of ‘regular people’ will find it just a nuisance, and one that is unnecessary. Saying that is only saying that people’s time has a value, and people have a lot of things to do.
So I think Mr. Whitacre is right to think of Volt as primarily a gas powered car with an electric alternative. One imagines that Volt’s function with gas will be smooth and functional, with probably a very high CS mpg, in that it has a battery capacity for buffering that is much larger than other cars.
After all, if one buys a car, one gets to choose how to use it best. My expection is that gas-first electric-second will be the mode actually selected by many of those who buy.
-5
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:56 am)There’s that vague again. Sorry, but claims like that don’t hold any substance without detail like quantity.
The current desire for Prius is to sell 150,000 per year here. In Japan, it’s somewhere around 350,000. The other markets (Canada, Europe, Australia, China, Thailand, etc) will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000.
With the small production volume of Volt & Leaf combined with the unknown of the other plug-in choices, what method would be used to determine such an effect? For that matter, how would you prevent the claim that limited availability isn’t doing the opposite?
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:00 pm)A Volt driver can drive from Sacramento, CA to Riverside, and back in 12 hours without having to stop for a charge. That’s something a Leaf can’t do. In fact a Leaf can’t even make the trip in a single day because of the charging time (most hotels aren’t going to give you access to a 220v line either).lol
Leaf cannot replace any car, a Volt can. We have a Suburban and a Grand Am. We uses the Suburban for snow trips and hauling gear/people. We uses the Grand Am for long trips (like the one I mentioned above). If we bought a Volt it could easily replace the Grand Am for those trips, therefore, I could get rid of the Grand Am. If we bought a Leaf, it could never replace the Grand Am because we can’t use it for those trips. And it can’t replace the Suburban because it can’t haul lots of gear or people and can’t go to the snow easily.
I’d guess this is how most families are. They have 2 cars already and they don’t want to add a 3rd car, especially when you can only use it within a 100 mile radius of home.
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:01 pm)–
Well, gm also has said that people are not going to be required to buy a charger or have a home inspection, obviously playing off against Leaf. It strains my imagination to suppose that customers are going to show up at an independent Chevrolet dealer to buy a Volt, have the money to pay top dollar, and then be turned away. Also, I think everyone who buys a Volt will be happy to have an electric charging capability, if for no other reason than to show it off (the enthusiasm of the first on the block). That’s a long way from saying they will charge every night, and my guess is that the majority will not do that for very long.
Not you of course (smile)
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:04 pm)Maybe Whitacre knows something we wish we knew, that Volt will have a CS mpg so good that you won’t have to feel bad driving long distances in it.
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:05 pm)RB!!
Sir! How could you??(LOL!!)
You buy a plug-in to plug it in.
If someone is so absent minded to plug it in, they probably do not have a job nowadays to afford it in
the first place, or, they are extremely ADD. In which case, they would forget which
car is the Volt anyway.
(….oh where did I put my rendition of “Plug it in, plug it in.”? (It’ sung to the tune of
Rub it in, Rub it in, a C&W song released in 1972 or so.))
I’ll drive 19,500 miles a year, whatever I drive.
I’d plug in at least once a day, often twice a day, maybe **VERY** often
twice a day to demo Volt. (Plug it in twice a day and “Double dip!!”)
But the most I’d use is several gallons of gas a week.
I’m sure Ed had lots of other context surrounding his commentary.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:06 pm)What you are saying (without actually saying it) is that due to the nuisance factor of plugging in, the LEAF won’t appeal to the larger number of car buyers beyond the committed ones, such as are found on this site.
I agree. After the early adopter wave subsides, I anticipate LEAF sales will slow to a trickle.
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:06 pm)Minor correction.
To be safe, you can only use it in a 40 mile radius from home. AC and heat are commonly needed.
I think of the leaf as a car that can be driven 2 to 2.5 hours (I have historically averaged 30+ mph per tank on my trip computer) and then it needs to charge for 8 -20 hrs (@220V or @110V). You basically get a 2-2.5 hour window per typical day.
Buying a leaf is like buying a part time car. The volt is a full time car.
+4
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:07 pm)Now you really know how to hurt a fella (smile). Please lighten up.
I wrote my opinion of what people are likely to do, not advice to them on what I think they should do. It is just an opinion.
+13
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:07 pm)All you’re saying is “prove it”. Fair enough. Stop by my office at the end of the 2011 model year. I’ll let you know how sales went. Of course, if you are driving a LEAF, be sure to plan your trip accordingly so I don’t have to send a tow truck for you.
-3
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:10 pm)That is right. Just imagine someone just keeps going down the road without thinking of the consequences and then get stranded – and finally someone has to rescue them. Wait, that is GM !
Oh, I see now. GM thinks everyone is as stupid as they were.
-7
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:15 pm)Look closer at the “success” comment. It is a BEFORE sales begin reference.
A goal is stated now. Then after the event concludes, results are measured against that goal.
Supposedly for Volt, that’s 10,000 sold in year #1 and 45,000 sold in year #2.
-4
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:21 pm)“Finally he said “We’re making vehicles that people just can’t wait to buy.”
I can, I can’t afford either of the 2 cars.
“It’s the only electric car you can drive across the country and never have to plug it in. It’s always on electricity”
SO, you drive accross the country, day by day, so you get 40 miles all electric, provided the motel/hotel has an outlet outside. Then use gas the rest of the way. True, your on electricity the entire way, but only 40 miles all electric, provided your able to plug in at night. Myself, I’ve driven 1000 miles a day, and dead tired when the day is over.
I see what is happening, but 40 miles just doesn’t seem to be enough, for a smaller mid-size car, it should of been around 80 or so miles all electric, then I could see the $40k+ price tag.
The volt is a longer distance commuter car, and the Leaf is a shorter commuter car. For what I would use them for, I’d take the leaf, I don’t like smaller cars on the road. Too many “Big Trucks” out there.
+5
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:36 pm)WHAT?!? That’s crazy! You’ve hit my hot button now, RB! Whitacre has NEVER said anything that could be spun or twisted into your mistaken comment here —and I’ve read everything I could get my hands on that he’s said publicly! What are you smokin’ today, RB? Cheech & Chong would sure pay you handsomely for it!
/Either retract the above statement or give me an exact quote supporting it, with a reference
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Hey nasaman,
Are you going to propose to your dealership a part time participation of some sort like I am?
Whether or not that is in the cards, I think I’d really enjoy getting some part time income that way. I have everyone I talk to on their “chair’s edge” every single time.
DonC would be right that I would sound quite fervent about Volt (not that he actually said it in those words, but am sure he’d agree as such if he ever heard me talk about Volt).
+4
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:52 pm)The Volt is a multi-tasker, while the Leaf is one-note.
I think the Volt would be a dream car for an outside sales rep who might travel 300 miles one day, and 30 miles the next. The per mile tax writeoff combined with the reduced fuel costs would be terrific. Clients would be impressed and want to go for rides; large cargo space in the back could hold a lot of samples and demo items.
+5
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:52 pm)Now GM / Whitacre need to get the price of the Volt to a reasonable price range for the common folks. Then they will really have something special.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:52 pm)Tell you what, Dan (& RB)… I’d be happy to provide electrical engineering consulting services to any group (entrepreneurs, dealers, venture capitalists, you, RB, or even GM itself) to design an automatic magnetically-coupled drive-on charger that I believe lots of Volt owners/Dealers/Shops would be able to sell at a reasonable price as an aftermarket device that would eliminate plugging in for an average Volt owner.
+4
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:54 pm)Lots of conflict here today. Sheesh! Here’s a few questions: Do any of the LEAF-ites have an actual ‘order’ in to the factory or is it still just $99 deposits? When do the actual orders go in? When do the deliveries begin? If you have an actual order already going, why do you bother hanging out on this site?
+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (12:56 pm)In one year a VOLT driver can enjoy 14,600 miles on electric plug in power if plugged in once a day. Make that 29,200 miles in one year if you plug it in twice a day!
The VOLT is a money saving car when you plug it in, and smart drivers who purchase or lease a VOLT will love to save money.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (1:01 pm)LOL- I noticed that too, but refrained from joining in the dumping on RB. I just think he’s been so disappointed by being excluded from the party (he lives in what he terms a ‘loser’ state) that it sounds like he’s now going through some sort of rationalization process, where reasons one would NOT benefit from owning a Volt (and LEAF) are explored and considered.
+5
Aug 7th, 2010 (1:03 pm)Man, I hope that is true. My wife is still pissed that I am buying this car. I think in her mind she still believes she can stop it in December when it gets here. We’ve never spent more than 25K on a car but the times are a changin’. Anyway we’ve stayed married 30 yrs for a reason. She’ll learn to deal with it. White Diamond with tan leather, the order is in baby! Right on Whitacre! Kick ass! That is what built this damn country!
Aug 7th, 2010 (1:13 pm)If the driver never uses the A/C or the Heater and the temperature of the battery never drops below freezing…
Of course, in reality, that’s not going to happen. The first time it rains and you have to use the defroster, you’re in for a surprise. Load up the car with passengers & cargo, same thing. Get stuck in heavy traffic, drive really fast/agressive, climb an elevation…
Aug 7th, 2010 (1:38 pm)+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (1:58 pm)In a Volt that “surprise” will be more of a disappointment than a major pain.
I suspect it’s the driving fast that will mostly kill the electric range in either the Volt or the Leaf. I don’t think heat or A/C will kill the range as much as some people think. People think of electric heaters and A/C as power hungry things, but they pale in comparison to the requirements of an electric car. A room A/C or space heater draws 1500 watts or so if it plugs into a standard socket. I don’t see why a car would need anything more powerful since the entire interior space is a tiny fraction that of a normal room. Cruising along at highway speeds in an electric car is going to take 10 or 20 thousand watts at least. So running heat or A/C would only impact your range by 5 or 10 percent as near as I can figure it.
The power to speed curve is a lot more painful. Driving 75 MPH is going to give you a lot less range than 55. The battery temperature itself will also play a role, but GM seems to have taken that well into account.
There are probably also scenarios where the Volt will get more than 40 miles on electric. Hopefully that figure is more the average than the absolute best it can preform, just as the Leaf is reported to get much more than 100 miles at times. The Volt driver will easily be able to make use of those extra miles because they don’t have to count on getting them. So if you regularly drive more than 40 miles with the Volt the less than 40 miles electric days may be offset by the more than 40 mile days.
-1
Aug 7th, 2010 (2:32 pm)A recent example from a Leaf screen photo showed the 98-mile range available would be reduced an estimated 22 miles by climate-control use. That’s at 22% reduction.
-2
Aug 7th, 2010 (2:34 pm)DonC, Tagamet (no n) and RB
Note that the comment (originally commented on) has disappeared, as it was INDEED ‘flame-worthy’. The key word in your discussion is ‘discourse’.
I have spent a lot of time writing in the last couple weeks as this forum has gone from being energized, thoughtful and anticipatory to whining, harsh and just plain pissy. I never added much before, because I liked reading and observing. But now I find I have written ‘Don’t Worry. Be Happy.’ at least a dozen times. Since the MSRP was released, my gosh, it takes me back to the last forum (which I swore would be my last forum) that I participated in. People, too often, take the anonymity of their writings and use such obnoxious feelings towards other participants, that they would be asked to leave if this was a real party with all of us standing PHYSICALLY there. Since the comment (that I commented on) was voted into invisibility, it would appear I am not alone in my sentiments. The comment implied (go back and read it if you like) that anyone who would buy this automobile during its first year was rich, lazy and/or stupid. When generalizations such as this are used, it is no longer ‘discourse’, it is just plain inflammatory.
I don’t care if RB is not normally a troll (perhaps that even makes it worse, because we all get used to the troll handles and skim over them), his statements contributed nothing constructive to this ‘discourse’ and only maligned and alienated 10,000 people all at once. That is ‘provocative’, to use your word. You have pronounced me ‘provocative’, yet my most strongly worded editorials have come in response to this same kind incendiary writing. Heck, I even know when to give up arguing with you, because it is no longer doing any good. That is ‘discourse’. RB’s comment was not discourse. Unfortunately, it reduces the value of the forum for all participants. If people see rants and generalizations like that, they leave and don’t come back. A forum like this only has value if information is being exchanged, not emotion and horribly offensive suppositions. And the forum gains more value and furthers the agenda, if more and more participate. THAT is why I get on my high horse and start writing things like this. IF THIS FORUM DEGENERATES INTO A BITCH SESSION, WE ALL LOSE!!!
This forum appears to have added interest, and substance, for a great many. I hope it continues to do so.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (2:36 pm)“Whitacre is also a fan of the Volt and sees it a better option than the Nissan LEAF something he said in an interview with the Detroit Press.
“It’s the only electric car you can drive across the country and never have to plug it in. It’s always on electricity. Nobody else can make that claim and nobody is going to be able to for awhile,” he said. “It’s a new technology. The proof will be in the pudding and we’ll sell more of these things than we can produce. No other electric car can go coast to coast on electricity.”
“So if you’re in a Leaf, when you get to 49 miles out, you better be thinking about heading home — and hoping there’s no hills,” he added.”
This is EXACTLY why I am buying a VOLT.. Now surprise to anyone on this site about that observation by ED
I am surprised at those who commented Ed was trashing the LEAF.
ACTUALLY it is a statement of fact the LEAF can only go so far on its battery until needing a charge. The LEAF does NOT have an on board charger …. unless someone adds a trailer with a generator.
Comment to ED…. You can produce more VOLTS …. do not be short sited. Plants can run 24/7.
-2
Aug 7th, 2010 (2:47 pm)More importantly, F=MA. It is not the speed as much as the acceleration. Too many people love to race from one red light to the next. Jack rabbit starts and delayed (read NON regenerative) braking are the true killers of usable energy. I am so tired of the ‘zero to sixty’ number. EVs may only make the phenomenon worse, as more torque is available at low speeds. If you want to increase your electric-only miles, pretend there is an egg under the accelerator. It might be okay to break the egg when you have to merge into deadly, high speed traffic. Otherwise, save the egg- and some JUICE- by remembering that you can’t beat Newton and F=MA.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (2:57 pm)If you just add “civility” to this, we can, in large part agree! I bristled more at your style rather than your substance. Far from “pissy”, this forum generally shies away from a need to name-call. I agree that the format allows some to take liberties that would not be tolerated in person, but do you really think that your first tirade would have gone better in person? Just another opinion.
Be well,
Tagamet (no n)(g)
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:07 pm)I have been sitting back and watching RB today… He is on a roll. If you ever sneak over to Statik’s Leaf site, you will see that RB holds court there. He is almost like the POPE for the Leaf blowers. I have not checked the site lately but it must be pretty dead for him to be so active today. Or maybe he did not take his medication.
-1
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:20 pm)–
It does seem to me a much bigger commitment to purchase a Leaf than a Volt, insofar as plugging in. One of the strengths of the Volt, in my opinion, is that it can go either way from being mainly an EV car with gas backup to mainly an gas car with EV backup, or anywhere in between, depending on the owner’s circumstances and choices. To me Mr Whitacre was saying that, using coast-to-coast as an example.
I am saying that, but only up to a point.
The Leaf is on the other side, all EV or no go. I very much doubt that most people, or even a majority, are ready for the latter, though I have no doubt that some are.
But, present forecasts still leave both Volt and Leaf sales as a tiny trickle compared to total production each year. Both could continue to sell at present rates for a long time to come.
-2
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:26 pm)If popular opinion counts, my first ‘tirade’ is at a +5, in response to an offensive rant that was voted into invisibility at -13. Some people speak louder than others when a group is wholly offended. I happen to be one of them.
I was confounded with your responses to me, because you were another voice of reason (and obviously a bit of despair) on MSRP day. Perhaps, as you say, it goes back to a ‘hippie’ nature, but there is one important truth to this matter. Everyone has opinions, but when those opinions become insulting, they are best kept to oneself. Aunt Lulu’s meatloaf may taste horrible to you, but do you blurt out how you feel unsolicited? RB’s comment described the MAJORITY of early Volt buyers as too self centered (to put it kindly) to bother recharging their cars unless they were showing off. If he truly thinks that way (which seems patently absurd), he is certainly entitled to his opinion. But what good does it do putting it out there to offend these people?
I try to live by the golden rule. Treat people like you want to be treated. You seemed to have made it clear that you were, for your own reasons, passing on the Volt for now. What if you had not? Would you NOT plug in the Volt? If you found other Volt buyers at the dealership, would you think they would be any less inclined? RB’s statements were generalized, judgmental and harsh. As I said, if no one else would stand up and call him on the carpet, I would. And it is not enough to just say, ‘Well, that’s just your opinion’. He should know that ‘civility’, as you bring up, certainly means that you know when you have offended someone else. ‘Ignorance’ is the word that comes to mind if you have a desire to argue with this concept. So I guess I am just done with this…
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:33 pm)I think he’s way off but that doesn’t mean he’s a troll. A troll is someone who writes something that is designed to inflame. RB just thinks that people are going to spend an extra $20K for a car they can plug in and then not take the thirty seconds it takes to plug it in, preferring to spend 10 minutes at a nasty gas station instead. Yeah, seems ridiculous to me. My guess is more people will charge at work than won’t charge at home. Perhaps the difference in our perspectives — you think he’s trolling and I just think he’s out there on this one — is that once someone proves themselves a good guy over several years one weird idea just seems like a aberrational weird idea.
Hey, maybe it’s for medical purposes!
You sure hit some hot buttons today with this one! Despite the rain of -1s, know many of us here still love you. Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:35 pm)I think that in CA one can order a Leaf now, or perhaps by the end of this month. Here in one of the remote outposts of the USA (North Carolina), we are not eligible to order either one at this time. (smile)
As to choices, it seems to me that urgency is that it would be great for us collectively to move away from gas toward electricity for transportation as rapidly as we can, and to that end both Volt and Leaf are on the same side.
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:35 pm)With the Volt coming out for public sale in November, expect to see the Volt on the covers of the car magazines in October. Since those publications have already had carefully controlled access to the car, and have written about their “experiences”, I’d sure hope that the articles this fall will include fully-instrumented tests. We’ll see.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:41 pm)So do I but remember that 70% of oil is used for transportation. And only 2% is used to generate electricity and most of that is for portable sources. Transportation means a lot more than just cars. There are Planes, Ships, Diesel Locomotives, Farm Equipment, etc. It’s going to be a very long time getting off oil and it would be silly to think anything else.
Yes, I will buy a Volt ASAP but we still need to have Oil Exploration and Production. Every little bits helps and the Volt and other EVs will help. But let’s not be delusional.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:45 pm)Amen on all counts!
Be well,
Tagamet
/good time for a nap
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:45 pm)–
Well today I feel like I’ve become like statik of the olden days….
And POPE no less. LOL. First time for everything
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:51 pm)What? -4 so far for reminding people that physics can’t be denied? Guess the truth hurts?
From Eartheasy.com (and I am probably sure you can find similar numbers elsewhere):
“‘Jack-rabbit’ starts and hard braking can increase fuel consumption by as much as 40%. Tests show that “jackrabbit” starts and hard braking reduces travel time by only four percent, while toxic emissions were more than five times higher. The proper way is to accelerate slowly and smoothly, then get into high gear as quickly as possible. In city driving, nearly 50% of the energy needed to power your car goes to acceleration.”
I am baffled. Why would people vote against what I wrote earlier? Please, if you disagree with the comment, make your own comment. It’s really no different than stating that seat belts save lives.
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:52 pm)I predict that Motor Trend will name the Volt as not just the car of the year, but the car of the 21st century.
+4
Aug 7th, 2010 (3:53 pm)Hit button on key fob: charge door opens. Grab business end of charging cord from hook on the garage wall. Plug into Volt. Walk into house.
Then, later that evening…
Squeeze toothpaste onto brush. Brush teeth. Rinse. Go to bed.
Which one is more time and trouble? Really?
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:01 pm)Maybe votes shouldn’t be seen as a very valid measure (g). Seriously, I agree that minuses for stating what you did, makes no sense (or even the way you said it!). (Shrug).
Keep the faith.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:06 pm)I think the problem here is that you’re using concepts that are somewhat true for internal combustion engines and projecting them to electric vehicles.
Your off-hand mention of late braking has some potential. We can hope that the Volt’s energy efficiency display in front of the driver will indicate when your brake application is too forceful to be fully absorbed by regenerative braking. As far as jackrabbit starts, it’s not obvious that rapid acceleration for a short time will use significantly more energy than a gradual acceleration over a greater time to the same final speed. Notice that I said “not obvious”, not “false”. I’m an electrical engineer but motors and power conversion aren’t my area of expertise.
But, hey, when has a lack of expertise ever prevented anyone from posting anything on any blog?
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:13 pm)If you had been following this blog for the last couple of years, you would know that the turn-around was started long ago by Rick Wagoner. He just didn’t have enough time to pull it off. There was really no reason for him to be forced to step down by the Obama administration, but I guess they needed a fall guy. Henderson had the distasteful job of executing the bankruptcy and did it as well as could be done. He kept Wagoner’s mantra of building world’s best cars, but lost his post over an argument about selling Opel. In this I agree as Opel is a critical part of GM and selling it would have been disastrous.
Ed Whitacre has re-enforced the policies set in place by Wagoner. I have been wary of Ed’s other job as a member of Exon-Mobile’s board, interfering with moving GM to electrify it’s vehicles. But so far he seems to be putting GM’s interests ahead of Exon-Mobile’s.
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:14 pm)The ability for the charger to connect automatically would be a nice addition.
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:15 pm)I’m going to quibble here with the contention that speed isn’t as important as mass (acceleration). Speed is important because the force needed to overcome drag increases by the cube of the velocity. Mass is important because Power = Work/Time, so while it may take the same force to move car from 0-60 in both five or ten seconds (Force X Distance, half the force and double the distance), doing it in five seconds as compared to ten seconds doubles the required power.
Also note that while regen can’t recover losses attributable to rolling resistance it can recover some portion of the losses attributable to acceleration/deceleration.
So both are important and which is more likely to bleed you just depends on the drive cycle. IOW if you’re going 50 miles at 85 MPH mass (acceleration) isn’t going to contribute that heavily to losses. On the other hand, when driving along four lane roads with lots of traffic lights mass will play the larger role.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:23 pm)I will get enjoyment out of plugging my car in. I also think people that don’t enjoy plugging in will do so anyway, just so that they don’t have to stop at the gas station. That seems to be much more of an annoyance to me.
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:23 pm)Huh? The equations look fairly straightforward. Work = Force X Distance. Power = Work/Time. I’ve seen people argue that halving the acceleration and doubling the distance still requires the same amount of work, which is true, but you’re interested in power needed to get to that speed, and halving the time doubles the power needed. And yes, you can recover some of this through regen but (1) you’ll recover the same energy if you accelerate at any rate; and (2) regen might be 40% effective. So yes, jackrabbit starts will take more power (kilowatts).
Which doesn’t mean I wouldn’t do it — it would be fun to smoke a Porshe off the line just for the shock value of it all! LOL
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:25 pm)It is certainly true that physics can’t be denied. The trick is choosing the correct physics to apply. Another important equation is K = (1/2)mv^^2. This shows that the energy required to accelerate a mass to a particular speed is proportional to the mass times the velocity squared. The acceleration used is not important. So physics actually says it doesn’t matter how hard you accelerate to get up to speed.
I suspect the real problem with jack rabbit starts is that ICE engines end up revving into realms of their power curve that aren’t very efficient. I have to wonder if this is going to be as much of a problem with electric motors. Certainly their efficiency across their RPM range is different from ICE engines. Note that because of this the Volt doesn’t need a regular transmission. How much established wisdom regarding ICE engine use needs to be thrown out when operating an electric car?
I agree that hard braking is a waste of fuel/energy. Even with regenerative braking you lose most the energy, I believe. I’m often surprised at how much braking other drivers do. Maybe it helps that I drive a manual transmission which seems to drop speed quicker when you take your foot off the pedal.
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:26 pm)That’s why I put F=MA. Newton’s laws were derived long before ICE’s were known. While there is yet little track record to show how MUCH EVs will benefit from reasonable acceleration, people ought to be aware that it might not be air conditioning that is the culprit in below expected AER. And I wrote this in part because I expect that the high-torque-at-low-speed with EVs may prove an addiction. Realistically, the rush we get from speed, it is not the speed itself. Does it really feel any different cruising in an airplane or a car when at constant velocity? Nope. Accelerating and turning- that’s when we notice the speed. People are going to notice the apparent ‘pep’ when taking off from a red light. But they should be prepared that that pep comes with a price.
Also, somewhat of a parallel for the electric world may be that starting current for a motor is approximately FIVE TIMES its running current. Not exactly the same thing as a car and a red light, but there is that analogy of coming up to speed.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:30 pm)1. Still all $99.
2. Everyone has been assigned a month during which they can order.
3. Deliveries begin in December but the number will no doubt be small.
4. No idea but thank God they do. 75% of the people polled on the board said they hadn’t talked to a dealer about a Volt. I don’t think having 75% of people leave would be a good thing.
(The Leaf order process is really being very well executed).
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:35 pm)You are well respected here (and I am sure elsewhere), so your posts are important.
I just want to say (as an ageing hippie) that I strongly agree with all of your statements.
I too do not condone politicians or companies trying to gain points by slandering the opposition instead of standing on their own merits.
In Whitacres’s case this is double embarrassment as GM will soon bring out a pure EV version of the Volt. Nothing worse than criticizing your opposition on a point that you later follow. It amounts to admitting you were wrong.
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:36 pm)I’ve thought about this for some time. I know the induction chargers exist, but I would like to just automate the plug that comes with the Volt. A couple servo actuators, maybe a simple vision system or even a laser photo eye, it wouldn’t be too difficult. If I’ve thought of it, im sure someone is already doing it.
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:37 pm)I’m not seeing it. You double the power for half the time and you’ve used the same amount energy. And energy is what the battery capacity is all about.
A better argument might be to use power = current-squared times resistance. The power losses in the resistive components of the controller go up by the square of the current. Now here’s where we need an electrical engineer who eats motors/controllers for breakfast: will double the acceleration require double the current into the traction motor?
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:37 pm)The fallacy in this thinking is explained at #98. Basically you’re interested in how many watts you’re expending, and watts are a measure of power. Since it takes more power to move from one energy state to another in less time, faster accelerations use more watts than slow ones.
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:44 pm)This is not true, in that you used the word ‘accelerate’. The kinetic energy equation you provided demonstates how much energy a mass has due to its (unchanging) velocity and has little to do with how you used it here. Obviously, the science and calculus involved here (a=dv/dt, v=ds/dt) is way beyond the scope of this forum. Perhaps I should not have used an equation, which only stirs the debate and blurs the issue. I think we can all agree that jack rabbit starts waste gas in an ICE and if you want to try an experiment in your new Volt, you might find that reasonable acceleration increases your AER- it is not much of an extrapolation.
Aug 7th, 2010 (4:47 pm)OK. Stay with me. To get to a given speed, if you halve the acceleration, you have to double the distance. Are we together? And at the end of the acceleration we’ll have the same final speed, so the energy state will be the same. OK? However, when getting to the final velocity with halve the acceleration we’ll take twice the time. Right? Now, watts are a measure of power. OK? And the equation is Power = Work/Time, where Work = Force X Distance. Together? So when you halve the acceleration you double the time, and that cuts the power needed by half. OK? So you’ll use halve the watts if you halve the acceleration. No?
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:06 pm)Well I have to disagree with this too. Air resistance goes up with the square of the speed and makes a big difference in mileage between 60 and 70mph.
Your reference to jack rabbit starts and stops is in reference to ICE cars and not electric. You assume that GM is not smart enough to limit the current to the electric motor under hard acceleration to maintain high efficiency. I give GM engineers more credit than that. They have gone the extra mile to make re-generative braking better than most competition, although I don’t think anyone is any where near 100% of theoretical. So I don’t think much will be saved by gradual starts, and stopping may be another issue.
Certainly if one stops suddenly enough to use the mechanical brakes then this is most inefficient, but if one stops within the limits of re-gen then they will do about as well as can be expected. Just where this limit is remains to be found out, but hopefully it is closer to the panic stop than the normal stop.
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:10 pm)I see you carefully differentiating between power and work, which is good. Many people confuse power measured in watts and energy measured in kWh. Power is important because the motor, battery, and control electronics have a maximum power handling capacity of about 111 kW. But the batteries store work/energy, not power. They have a usable capacity of 8 kilowatt hours. So the battery drain from accelerating to 60 MPH is based on work/energy or power multiplied by time. So using half the power for twice the time draws the same total energy from the batteries. At least it will if the efficiency and losses are the same. Undoubtedly there are higher losses and lower efficiency with short high power accelerations. Whether electric cars have as poor an efficiency at high power as ICE cars remains to be seen.
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:10 pm)The missing link is that power is an instantaneous flow. Integrate that power over time and you get energy. So, sure, your power flow (Watts) is cut in half if you cut in half the acceleration. But since you’re integrating that half power for twice as long to achieve the same final velocity, your energy consumption is the same either way.
The Volt’s battery doesn’t store “power”. It stores energy. KWH. Not KW.
(I see that post 109 made the same points with great clarity.)
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:13 pm)Actually this understates the importance of speed. Resistance goes up with the square of the velocity but the power needed to overcome drag goes up with the cube of the velocity.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:15 pm)OT: I’ve noticed that the margin advertisements have started being for the Volt. Oh boy! Marketing!
+4
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:16 pm)Every time I read this, I just can’t believe it. Why do people think that taking a few seconds to plug in your car at home is less convenient than going to a gas station and standing there while you fill it up with gas???
A fair amount of time to set up the charger??? What setup? Just plug the car in, a few seconds.
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:23 pm)But using half the watts for twice the time means you’ve used the same number of watt/hours, which is really what matters.
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:33 pm)The kinetic energy equation does bear on how much energy it takes to accelerate a mass to a given speed. Why would you claim it doesn’t? Granted it sets a lower limit on the energy required if you do it 100% efficiently.
Let’s talk about the F=MA equation you brought up. It is an equation for force. Force is not power. Force is not energy or work. Batteries do not store force. They don’t even store power (properly defined), they store work/energy. The relationship between work and force is that work equals force times distance. If you factor distance into your force equation I bet you’ll find that acceleration drops out and you’ll be left with the kinetic energy equation. I leave that derivation as an exercise for the reader.
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:39 pm)I actually considered adding a single summary line to my post saying exactly that.
Batteries store energy, not power.
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:50 pm)That’s a fair point about the energy used during the acceleration cycle, but don’t forget that during the cycle you’re going twice the distance on the slower acceleration cycle. Imagine two cycles where you accelerate from 0-60 MPH and then instantly stop, one with acceleration 2X the other. Run the cycles until the battery goes flat. Yes you will be able to do the same number of cycles with both acceleration cycles, but you will have traveled twice the distance on the slower acceleration cycle. (It’s a watts per mile thing).
Maybe this example will help. You’ll use the same number of kWh running a 120 watt bulb for one hour as you will a 60 watt bulb for two hours, but if you only have .12 kWh available you’ll get light for an hour longer when running the 60 watt bulb.
Absolutely true but you’re forgetting that while you’ve used the same total amount of energy you’ve gone twice as far with the lower draw. This fact is crucial since it’s not putting words in his mouth when saying he was making the point that you could increase the range by avoiding jackrabbit starts. (See above).
/this is more interesting than another “gouging” discussion
+6
Aug 7th, 2010 (5:54 pm)Hybrids are sooooo last decade, it’s all about electrics with range extenders now.
Aug 7th, 2010 (6:17 pm)Well, I am apparently not going to follow you and you are apparently not going to follow me. Your second paragraph loses me entirely and your first- well, what is the velocity you discuss? It is not a CHANGE in velocity (as we need to address with respect to acceleration a=dv/dt). It is a STEADY STATE velocity (acceleration is ZERO for this to apply). Take a step back and realize that KE is proportional to speed squared. So something going at TWICE the speed has FOUR TIMES the kinetic energy. So the use of energy is not a simple linear equation, it involves calculus (again, beyond the scope of the forum).
I didn’t bring this up as a science experiment. There are physics-related reasons you burn more gas with jack rabbit starts- not just because it is a combustion process. People seem to agree with this. It has been pointed out that hard breaking will take you from regenerative to friction based braking (again, a waste). Someone else pointed out that resistive power losses go up with the square of current- which will be higher for more rapid (if even all entirely regenerative) braking and more rapid acceleration. These losses are heat- and will not be recovered. So eat the elephant one bite at a time- do not try to consume the whole thing at once. The small parts still add up to a logical conclusion…
Forget the theorems and proofs. I postulate you will lose AER if you drive like crap. Do your own empirical data collection after you buy your Volt- drive the same route like crap and then ease off on the acceleration and braking. Post your results here.
Aug 7th, 2010 (6:54 pm)I can’t disagree with that, poor driving will result in less electric range. I simply disagree with your earlier statement “It is not the speed as much as the acceleration.” I suspect electric cars won’t have as much problem with lost efficiency at high acceleration as ICE’s. The main problem will be the final speed you drive at. There’s a lot more drag at 75 than 55. Electric cars won’t suffer as much during reasonable acceleration and braking. They will probably get better mileage in the city than on the highway.
Now someone that actually has experience driving electric cars will probably tell me I’m full of it. But electric cars aren’t the same as gas cars, so I suspect some of the old rules will be broken.
Aug 7th, 2010 (6:55 pm)Question: after the Volt reaches steady state velocity in either case and then proceeds to the destination (and let’s say the destination is a brick wall so that we don’t have to consider how the operator deaccelerates), under which scenario does the energy consumption stop first? Since the rapid-acceleration case will be farther down the road when the slower-acceleration case finally reaches the steady state velocity, it will complete the trip first — and stop consuming energy from the battery. I’m gonna put out for discussion the possibility that the former’s earlier completion-of-trip will save enough energy make Porsche-baiting in a Volt a reasonably efficient activity.
First order effects only. Second and third order effects (like the rapidly-accelerated Volt will spend more time at higher-drag velocities) are not included.
Time for dinner. Have fun.
Aug 7th, 2010 (6:57 pm)When I was thinking of time setting up the charger, it was time working with a contractor, locating the right spot for the charger, getting the installation completed, etc. Not a huge job in construction terms, but one requiring some weeks to completion, and a payment of perhaps $1-$3K. It’s something that you will have done easily, but for others, who have a more complicated situation, it will take a while, and for many (people like me, who do not have a garage with ready access to power and wide spaces around the car) I suspect that an installation that gives a smooth, convenient charger location, readily accessible, will not be accomplished.
Insofar as plugging in, under ideal conditions there will be nothing to it, just as you said. But when the yard tools are in the way, or the tricycle, or some cardboard boxes have been put there, or your kid is crying, or there are lots of groceries to get in…. (you get the idea). And it is not a job that has to be done, so some people, perhaps many people, will take the easier route. I do not criticize them for doing so — it is their car, and their choice.
It should have been worded better. My fault.
Aug 7th, 2010 (7:14 pm)I don’t think the electrical stuff will be that big of a deal in the end. Any electrician worth his wire nuts will be able to install one of these in a few hours. It will be costly but no big deal. This is no different than wiring a stove, dryer, hot tub, etc. that they do all day long.
Your post made me think of a cool fixture for charging. How about a ceiling mounted charger with the ability to roll out maybe six feet of the heavy cable down towards your car. I have a heavy gauge retractable extension cord/light on the ceiling now.
The 220V would be much heavier but having it in a retractable roll on the ceiling would keep it out of the way and it would never be behind the tricycle.
Just a thought for the budding electrical types who might design something like this. Hope to see it one day at http://gmaccessoriesstore.com (which by the way currently does not list the Volt at all).
+2
Aug 7th, 2010 (7:18 pm)Again, Mr. Whitacre has the benefit of knowing what CS MPG really is. If Volt gets better mileage than other cars it’s size, then plugging in becomes a luxury, not a necessity.
Aug 7th, 2010 (7:19 pm)That’s a puzzling problem you set up there. I just had to try figuring it out.
Why would anyone stop every time they hit 60MPH? You have set up a test where one car brakes every time it goes half the distance the other does. Is it surprising it only goes half as far on the same energy? It’s the more frequent braking that kills the mileage rather than the harder acceleration.
BTW, it’s not a watts per mile thing, but a kWh per mile thing.
Aug 7th, 2010 (7:21 pm)I brought this same subject up several posts ago.
I think RB posted a link to a Tesla web site that discussed this in detail. Disregarding efficiency issues with motor heating and other inefficienies caused by faster accels, the energy to go from 0-x mph is theoretically the same for any accel rate.
Aug 7th, 2010 (7:23 pm)This is a fair analysis. I have thought the same, myself.
A problem, not just for the Volt, but for all plug in hybrids. I would not at all be surprised if a majority of plug-in hybrid owners do their plug-in diligence for the first few months of ownership, but after the new has worn off, the car gets plugged in a little less often and a little less often. Perhaps by year 2 of ownership your total miles travelled/gallons used starts looking a lot more like 34 mpg and a lot less like 230 mpg.
ymmv
Aug 7th, 2010 (7:24 pm)The faster accelerating car will stop first since the time will be halved. But the brick wall it hits will be half as far down the road as the brick wall the slower accelerating Volt will hit. This should be obvious since one definition of a faster accelerating car is one that is going faster after 1/4 of a mile. If a fast car gets to 60 MPH in 1/4 of a mile, then a car half as fast will get to 60 MPH in 1/2 a mile. If both cars instantly stop when they hit sixty, the faster accelerating car will only have gone 1/4 as opposed to 1/2 a mile.
Aug 7th, 2010 (7:27 pm)You’re both nuts!
The energy is the same but the distance traveled is not.
Aug 7th, 2010 (7:48 pm)When Joe Public has a Volt in front of him, what’s the first impression?
First drive is electric. It’s an electric car.
Without that test drive, it’s just another hybrid.
GM is right by saying two things, the Volt is an electric car and the Volt will sell itself. We’ll soon find out the average automotive intelligence of the Volt driver. Judging by this site and the Chevy site, the car is definitely getting plugged in.
The same people that bear the expense of a home solar grid will gladly spend the money on a Volt and a Leaf.
No dolts are these. As for the rest of us, we get it too.
Aug 7th, 2010 (8:04 pm)I agree. Yet even for someone who never routinely recharges, the battery capability still has a value, in that it may allow the ICE to give better mileage, and it provides an independent capability if there is a sudden gas shortage or price spike.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (8:15 pm)Roy & Tagamet — You guys must be totally bummed out by all the Tude being dropped here today. Looks like nobody took Wavy Gravy’s advice to avoid the Brown acid.
Maybe you guys can get a hold of Micky Hart from Grateful Dead and we can get a drum circle going. Everyone can get their release the bad vibes and find mutual harmony. It could be a real happening scene mann….
Seriously guys, if you had teenagers today in your life you would realize it is now cool to laydown smack against both competitors and friends alike. The world has changed for the better!
Aug 7th, 2010 (8:30 pm)Thanks for the kind words (though I hope we’re not opening that can of worms again).
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:20 pm)I been reading your posts and those of other people responding to your attics. Tagamet has given you safe journey on this thread. But in a few words, you just make me laugh.
Your comments about Ed Whitacre would be innocuous except for the misstatements where you but words in his mouth. He doesn’t think of the Volt as primarily a gas powered car with an electric alternative. Much of what you say can be seen as either illogical and conjecture. Why you come back again and again defending your statements is hard to understand.
Geeze!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:29 pm)I’m just SOOOO misunderstood! (lol). It’s not for me to “grant safe passage” to anyone. I *just* grumbled about the name-calling. I *DISagree* with RB’s statements, but thought that being smacked with epithets was a bit much. *Surely* you’ve noticed me doing the same thing for *everyone* here. Well, except johnboy. He’s special.
Be well,
Tagamet
/I’ll bet you meant “antics”
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:29 pm)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2] In addition to the offending poster, the noun troll can also refer to the provocative message itself
I believe this definition of troll fits the statement and the person who makes such a statement. A troll is not necessarily always a troll, being a longtime upstanding member of a community does not make someone not a troll. RB posted his “opinion” just to get a rise out of people and it worked… billions of electrons were very inconvenienced because of his statement. 133 comments re: the words of a CEO
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:30 pm)+3
Aug 7th, 2010 (9:30 pm)I don’t know if anyone else caught this blooper. “The proof will be in the pudding and “we’ll sell more of these things than we can produce.” I believe Ed has a sense of humor but how can you sell more than you can produce.
Then again, he might be telling us, “We will up the production to meet the demand.” Here’s hoping!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:01 pm)I’m surprised by the comment RB but my guess is you were pissed at the high price low volume smallarket (no north Carolina) and insane dealer markups. After having met you in NYC I know you were like a kid on Christmas morning. We’re just gonna have to wait a little longer for our volt than November but don’t lose the faith
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:06 pm)Did you mean me or RB? I’ve wasn’t at NYC and in FL, I will not see Volt for a year. So maybe RB thinks those of us who get our Volts a year from now will actually plug it in.
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:08 pm)I noticed that too. How can you sell more than you produce? Ha!
Unless of course it’s all a big scam. They’ll only produce a hundred Volts and then sell each one a hundred times in order to hit 10,000 sales in the first year. What an audacious con!
Or maybe he just meant they “could have” sold more than they are able to produce.
+1
Aug 7th, 2010 (10:12 pm)I have tried to submit this six times, but Submit comment seems to not want to take it. Maybe it is the link, so I will leave it out and just quote from article at EVWORLD (no less).
Sustainability engineer had this to say about acceleration vs energy usage. Almost identical to DonC discussion. It is not about how much energy you use per unit time, but HOW FAR you get with a given amount of energy. So, drive like crap and you’ll lower AER.
‘How much energy is used in accelerating your vehicle depends on its mass and how fast you accelerate. My car weighs 1,250 kg and has an acceleration of 3.014 m/s^2 (0-60 in 8.9 seconds). This means that my car requires 3767 newtons (1,250 kg x 3.014 m/s^2) to reach 60 mph under full acceleration. The car requires roughly 240 m to reach 60 mph (27 m/s) so the work done by the accelerating vehicle is 904,080 Joules (3767 newtons x 240 m), and since we already know that it takes 8.9 seconds we can find that the power required is 101.6 kW (904.08 kJ / 8.9 s). This is slightly above the stated maximum power in the vehicle’s specifications, which just speaks to the fact that theoretical calculations rarely result in the same values as empirical measurements (although they are close in this case).
If you were to take twice as long to accelerate to 60 mph (18 s) your acceleration would be 1.490 m/s^2 and the force required would be only 1863 newtons, about half of the force required for full acceleration. This force translates to only 50 kW. But by accelerating more slowly means that it takes you twice as long to get up to speed. So does this mean that it doesn’t matter how fast you accelerate since it will take the same energy to get up to speed? Well, no. The objective of driving is to get from point A to point B, not to get up to a certain speed in a set amount of time so we should be concerned with the distance traveled per unit of energy. By accelerating half as fast my car will travel 483 m with the same amount of energy as the maximum acceleration, which gets us 240 m (more than 2x as far).’
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:05 pm)I just wonder who will be the first person to drive away from home, forgetting to unplug the Volt. I bet someone will. Will the cord just pop out or cause some damage?
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:09 pm)Man, is it getting nerdy in here, or is it just me ? LOL
As for the Leaf, Whitacre is right. 100 miles battery range ALWAYS equals a 50 mile leash, at best. (and I didn’t need E=MC anything to figure that one out).
I would LOVE to own a car free of oil changes and radiator hoses. But until BEVs get more range, they simply cannot replace an ICE car for long trips. The high voltage recharge stations don’t exist yet. And waiting 30 minutes at a fast charge station cannot be much fun in bitter cold January or blazing hot August.
It’s a damn shame Tesla died before he figured out the secret to wireless electricity transmission. Glaciers move faster than EEStor. And my idea – building overhead electrical grids over all roads, like bumper cars use, to power EV’s – has been turned down. Maybe if we put inductive electrical power under the road…hmmmm.
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:27 pm)I don’t think it’s the later. He just means that the demand is greater than they will produce!?! Meaning they have a great product and the financials will look better with the Volt in the line-up.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:27 pm)Good chance the shift lever “P” will be tied to the charge port. We know the brake pedal is tied to the “start car” button.
The electric GEM car, for example, won’t move with the emergency brake left on even the slightest bit. The GEM car at my work place now has 6500 miles on it. Can handle 4 adults at 25MPH with no gas at all.
=D-Volt
Aug 7th, 2010 (11:39 pm)The new J1772 connector used to charge the Volt has a pin dedicated just for that.. it will prevent the car from moving while its plugged in.
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:33 am)The Volt won’t start if still plugged in. OOPS, someone already helped out on this. Sorry.
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:41 am)When a million of these American-fueled cars are on the road, every American will have something to be more proud of.
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:03 am)Not sure what you’re asking. The faster car will get from point A to point B faster. That’s essentially tautological.
But that isn’t the issue. Maybe if we used some real numbers it might make it more obvious. One car accelerates at 100m/sec^2. One accelerates at 10m/sec^2. The faster car will get to a speed of 100 m/sec in one second, it’s average speed will be 50 m/sec, and when it gets to 100 m/sec it will have traveled 50 meters. The slower car will get to a speed of 100 m/sec in 10 seconds, its average speed will be 50 m/sec, and when it gets to a speed of 100 m/sec it will have traveled 500 meters. Which car will get to a destination faster? Depends on your starting point. From rest the faster car will arrive at the destination point sooner than the slower car, but the slower car will cover the distance from the point at which each car reaches the speed of 100 m/sec faster since the distance it needs to cover will be 450 meters less that what the faster car needs to cover and its speed will be the same as the faster accelerating car.
Yup. Nicely stated.
Aug 8th, 2010 (1:11 am)Must be nice to be a mind reader.
I’m not a mind reader so I honestly don’t know what his intent was. However, given that he’s been posting for a couple of years and has never done what you’re saying, the simpler and more obvious explanation is he has come to a conclusion which is not widely shared.
Who knows? Maybe he’s right. We don’t have any real world experience so we’re all just conjecturing how people will respond. I think he’s crazy on this one but I’ve been wrong before.
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (2:19 am)And at least one German …
http://gm-volt.com/2009/10/30/volt-chief-frank-weber-going-to-opel/
Aug 8th, 2010 (5:36 am)Heard through the grapevine that there is news brewing concerning Volt leasing. Wonder what’s cooking.
=D-Volt
+1
Aug 8th, 2010 (8:58 am)I sure hope GM and FORD do well… This country needs to get back to work. The Volt will and is certainly helping GM. That is good news for a lot of people. The Volt is helping but the only way to sustained improvement is to fix TRADE. There is no way that we the taxpayers should be giving Nissan $7500 per car while they put a $20,000 tariff on every car we try to sell in Japan. And this is not a isolated situation… we have to give GM and FORD a level playing field in this “Global economy” or else they will find themselves in the same place as Pontiac Oldsmobile Saturn Mercury Chrysler etc.
Aug 8th, 2010 (9:55 am)I think there will be some back-peddling here. The announced lease price was based on the dealer selling below MSRP. What dealer is going to do that? We will see a new higher lease.
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:19 pm)When I came across this post, a day late, I thought that surely no controversy would result. The most amazing thing about the commentary following, however, was that I wasn’t actually involved!!!
Hey, you guys, play nice!!! (snicker)
The Dead Prez
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:23 pm)Hope not, if we are to get free of oil.
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:27 pm)I’m sure in time they will.
Aug 8th, 2010 (12:34 pm)Waiting lists.
Aug 8th, 2010 (4:30 pm)Poor RB – talk about farting in church!! Shame on you! -grin
Folks – I don’t *necessarily* agree with him on this but the simple fact is we won’t have the “real data” for a couple years out. What % of people will plug it in what % of evenings, or at work?, or even can? I’m not posting the answer, I’m supporting the question.
Buying the Volt as a hedge against gas shortages does not make you an Evil Person. The reality is that ER/EVs won’t make even the smallest dent in US fuel imports or global carbon emissions for years and years out into the future if ever. I’m not saying you shouldn’t do what you can, but give the fella a break.
Aug 9th, 2010 (7:28 am)I agree with Tag. GM should be concentrating on growing the EV market, the whole market. A rising EV tide floats all boats. The two serve different consumer demands and can coexist just fine. Aside from that, it is just an ignorant target. GM should be targeting the 200K/yr Prius+Insight buyers. Those are the eco-conscious, gas-adverse buyers that GM should have it’s main focus on. That is where 60-100K sales in 2012 can come from, not the 0 sales of Nissan’s Leaf.
GM and Whitacre are misguided in their competitive focus here and it is a shame for Voltec.
Aug 9th, 2010 (12:33 pm)#5
I have no problem with your comment whatsoever. All true, IMHO. -13? Why? +1 from me. I know it won’t get you “back on the island”, but it’s the best I can do, LOL.
Aug 9th, 2010 (5:58 pm)I’ve been scratching my head reading this argument thread trying to figure out the logic behind it.
Ok, I finally see what you’re getting at. But the conclusion you reached is wrong (that accelerating faster uses more energy for the same distance traveled). While it’s true that the slower accelerating car goes twice as far as the faster accelerating one while using the same amount of energy (until they both get to the same speed), once the faster one has reached the target speed then it can coast and use no energy at all to get the rest of the way while the slower one has used half the energy up to that point but it continues to use energy the rest of the way. So in the end both cars will get to the destination in the same amount of time and both will end up having used the same amount of energy.
Or in a different scenario, both cars continue to accelerate until they reach destination so that the faster one will be travelling twice as fast as the slow one when it crosses the finish line. The faster car will then use twice the energy of the slow one but it will do so in half the time, so either way the total energy consumed will be the same!
Of course these scenarios don’t take friction and drag into account. In reality, the faster accelerating car will use more energy simply because it’s spending more of the time at a higher speed than the slower one, thus incurring a higher drag penalty. But that has nothing to do with acceleration, only with speed.
Aug 9th, 2010 (6:28 pm)I misspoke. What I meant to say was the faster car would have used twice the energy in the same amount of time as the slow one, but it gets to the destination in half the time so it ends up using the same amount of energy as the slow one.
Aug 11th, 2010 (4:05 pm)I don’t think it will be a big deal at all to get into that habit. Just like pushing the lock button
down before closing the door. Plus, any alternative design would have to go through all the different levels of SAE, and several other agencies.
But a kind and generous offer of design help. (Thanks!).