Aug 04

Poll: How Rampant is Chevy Volt Dealer Price Gouging?

 

[ad#post_ad]There is evidence GM suspected Chevrolet dealers would add a surcharge to the MSRP for early Volt buyers.  Though GM’s party line was to tell dealers to “do the right thing,” strictly limiting the supply of a car whose demand had been amplified through years of publicity virtually assures early buyers will have to pay a premium.

Though many enthusiasts are annoyed about this, it benefits GM to have a product so hot and so desired that they could sell out the first year production even with this added premium.

Now that dealers have begun to take orders we can finally see what kind of problem this will turn out to be.

Edmunds.com recently reported on a Chevy dealer in California with an allocated nine cars who is charging a $20,000 premium per car. The following email from that dealer was published:

Hello *****

Thank you for your online request, as you know the Volt is going to be a very limited production vehicle for the first 2-3 years. Demand is going to far exceed supply for this vehicle, initially our asking price for the Volt is going to be MSRP plus $20,000, we are expecting only receive 9 Volts all of next year.

I will keep you in my customer base for when the Volt comes out and I will contact you with any information as I receive it. We are taking orders right now for the Volt, if you would like more information, please let me know and I will be more than happy to help you. Thank you.

***** *****, Internet Specialist
******* Chevrolet
********, CA

“We have had a couple indications that some dealers out there are doing this,” said GM spokesman Rob Peterson. “Other consumers have reported positive experiences.”

GM has no direct say over how dealers run their dealerships or what they charge, as they are independent franchises.

“We don’t control any pricing at the dealership,” Peterson said. “However we have suggested strongly that they keep prices in line with what we have offered.”

GM is confident that the pricing they have chosen for the Volt is justified.  “I look at it and say with a federal tax credit, it is $33,500,” said GM’s exectuive director of hybrid and electric vehicles Larry Nitz.  “We think there will be a plentiful supply of customers at that price.”

“It’s in a market of its own, where else are you going to go to get one of these things? There is no other choice,” said Nitz.  ”It’s not like we’re trying to sell two million of these.”

Most dealers in the launch markets are getting ten or less cars in their first year allocation, and most plan only selling them locally to help build their customer relationships. As such, many are willing to sell at MSRP but probably equally many are not.

We at GM-Volt are in a unique position since we likely have the highest concentration of Volt buyers on the Internet.  If you have placed an order or have spoken to a dealer and are getting ready to place an order, please take the poll below, and feel free to join in our Dealer Gouging forum thread.

Source (Detroit Press) and (Detroit Press)


[ad#postbottom]

This entry was posted on Wednesday, August 4th, 2010 at 6:09 am and is filed under Dealers. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 230


  1. 1
    RB

    +32

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    RB
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:22 am)

    One of the nicer aspects of living in the loser zone is that as you cannot place an order, you cannot pay more than MSRP :)

    But insofar as dealers charging more than MSRP, that’s how the system works — market prices. We didn’t extend much sympathy to dealers when they had to mark down inventory during the economic downturn, and the other side is not to criticize too much on those rare occasions when dealers have a hot product that can be marked up.

    So it seems to me too harsh to say that marking up the price is “gouging” in the sense of marking up the price of bottled water after a hurricane. A new Volt is nice but not something that is a life necessity. If the price is too high, the buyer is free to walk away.


  2. 2
    James

    +10

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:23 am)

    X – My dealer won’t get a Volt for the foreseeable future.

    I live in Washington State, one of the regions where we will just have to watch the gouges from afar.

    RECHARGE!

    James

    The outlandish markups won’t cause an elitist buzz for that dealer… They won’t in any way, cause Volt to become iconic…. Nope. No way. In fact, what the dealer does for himself who attempts to profit from a model’s rarity is – label her/himself a profiteer and inscrutible operator – one to avoid at all cost. Sadly, as typified when the 2007 Shelby GT500 was eked out in small numbers by Ford, most dealer’s allotment was 2 – 5 cars, markups were through the roof. Back then I was thinking investment ( as were 99.5% of Shelby buyers ), Ford dealers knew it and though they were so clever in abusing potential customers. To this day I have vowed never to buy a Ford from any of those dealers. And when a regional buyer laughed at me for balking at the hellish markups – I pretty much resolved to have Ford kiss my behind.

    RECHARGE!

    James


  3. 3
    jhm614

    +14

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jhm614
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:24 am)

    I think dealer markup or dealer added accessories will be “the cost of doing business” for first coupe of months. And just because one dealer asks for a 20K premium doesn’t mean he’s going to get it on all 9 of his allocated cars (or any get on ANY of his allocated cars, for that matter.)


  4. 4
    MarkinWI

    +5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MarkinWI
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:25 am)

    Given the limited quantity I guess this is unavoidable. Hopefully GM puts on an actual PR offensive on the issue, or ramps up volume more quickly than anticipated. Otherwise, the public perception will be that this class of vehicle is only a luxury car. For myself, I don’t expect to be able to buy in my area until 2012. I suspect that by the time I get to market this type of gouging will have subsided. Sorry RB, I have to disagree, a 50% mark-up is gouging. Other than Chrysler, I’ve never seen a 50% mark-down on a car.


  5. 5
    mark ysmith

    +10

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    mark ysmith
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:29 am)

    Why do cars need dealers anyway – why can’t you get a car like you can buy a DELL computer – ordered off the web with the colours and spec you want?
    Maybe GM and whoever should seriously start looking into this! I think SMART started doing this – can’t understand why it doesn’t happen more… obviously dealers would be pissed…
    Test drive at a dealer… but don’t buy it there.


  6. 6
    JohnK

    +7

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JohnK
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:31 am)

    And on a positive note, I got an email from my salesman telling me to come in next week and submit a preliminary order. :) ;) :)


  7. 7
    Rashiid Amul

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:32 am)

    I am not the least bit surprised.
    We have talked about this a lot.
    Price gouging is just too irresistible for dealers that have been suffering with poor sales in the past.


  8. 8
    Rashiid Amul

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:34 am)

    mark ysmith: Test drive at a dealer… but don’t buy it there.

    Then what does the dealer become, just a service station?


  9. 9
    Eco_Turbo

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Eco_Turbo
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:40 am)

    I can’t wait for the first Gougee to report the unknowns about Volt! 8-)


  10. 10
    Rashiid Amul

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:46 am)

    MarkinWI: Given the limited quantity I guess this is unavoidable. Hopefully GM puts on an actual PR offensive on the issue, or ramps up volume more quickly than anticipated. Otherwise, the public perception will be that this class of vehicle is only a luxury car. For myself, I don’t expect to be able to buy in my area until 2012. I suspect that by the time I get to market this type of gouging will have subsided. Sorry RB, I have to disagree, a 50% mark-up is gouging. Other than Chrysler, I’ve never seen a 50% mark-down on a car.  

    There was a lot of gouging when the Mazda Miata first appeared.
    Also when the new Beetle appeared.


  11. 11
    tom w

    +11

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    tom w
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:51 am)

    Price Gouging won’t occur for long (unless there is an oil spike due to mideast war etc.). There will be so much competition in a year. Volt, Leaf, Focus, Transit-Connect, BYD etc. I’m just trying to hang in there until 2012.

    I think it is interesting how these companies are partnering up with other companies, probably as much as anything to get more companies the 200,000 per manufacturer fed credit.

    I assume Azzure can sell 200,000 transit connects while Ford sells 200,000 Focus all getting the 7500 credit. GM can do the same with the van they will have their India partner make.

    Another example of Tax policy impacts business. I think the tax credit should phase out by year not number of cars, therefore pushing the companies to ramp up and take advantage of credits before they phase out.

    I still have no idea if I’ll get a leaf or a volt, I’m really interested in the transit connect as well but I know so little about it. It claims 80 mile range but I don’t know how long the battery lasts, what is the highway range at 60mph etc. But I’m sort of interested in the Transit as an all purpose commuter that can also be a utility vehicle.

    As great as the volt is, my main desire is an all purpose vehicle that I can drive 60-70 miles a day on batteries. I also assume cars like this will be able to find charging stations pretty easily within a few years for those days where an extra charge to cover another 20-30 miles is needed.

    Out of town trips of course makes no sense with BEVs with only 80-100 mile range. Thats why most families need a volt and a BEV.


  12. 12
    Magilla

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Magilla
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:53 am)

    Dealers have had to become accustomed to eeking out an existence on small margins for most of the past two years. I know that a large part of recent growth in the domestic vehicle market has been in trucks and SUV’s — something I never would have believed when gas was hovering near $4 per gallon – but these vehilcles are no longer the cash cows they once were. Not we have a “hot” product with an MSRP comparable to a well optioned Chevy Tahoe (sorry meant to say Chevrolet) and they are salivating at the chance to eek out a few more bucks. I guess there’s a reason why car dealers are just above memebers of congress on the “Trust Scale”.


  13. 13
    Jim I

    +6

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jim I
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:55 am)

    So why did Lyle take out the dealer’s name from his thread?

    If this dealer is OK with sending out e-mails stating his pricing schedule, then there is no real reason not to publish the name of the dealership here.

    Since I have no idea when Ohio will be in the “available” status for their dealers to sell me a Volt, this is not much of an issue for me.

    But I would never pay that type of a premium. Never. And I would never forget the dealer that tried to add that kind of a markup to the price of a car. We should not forget that the Volt is not something that is going to gain value over the years, unless you plan to not drive it, and just store it away for twenty years or so. But then you would still have a car that is not working, as the batteries would be worthless.

    I am an early adopter, but I am not an idiot……. It is my money, and I will spend it on what I think makes sense!


  14. 14
    Tom M

    +16

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tom M
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:57 am)

    Most of us here realized this would happen. The truth is, as much as it stinks, the volt really isn’t going to be a reasonable option for most of us until 2012 when production increases and it’s available in every state. I know a lot of us have been patiently waiting for years now and it’s frustrating because we know there are out there but can’t get one.

    I’m not paying a penny over MSRP. I’ve never even paid MSRP before and I’m not going to start now. The car is already more expensive than anticipated. It’s looks to be a great car, and I’m going to keep it in my sights, but it looks like I’m not going to be a buyer for a while.

    GM has a great car here. They are also trying to gain consumer confidence and reassure everybody that saving them was the right thing to do. Rightly or wrongly the Volt has been given the distinction as the car that can “save” GM. These excessive mark ups are bad for business and will turn people away and into another vehicle.


  15. 15
    Dave K.

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:58 am)

    This is a deep subject. The tax payers being part owner of GM. The “buy American” mantra. The extensive engineering put in this vehicle making it worth it. The value added by being able to drive 50 or 60 miles a day for under $2. The convenience of by-passing the Arco station twice a week. The limited first year production. Followed by 4 times as many being made the following year. Only to be diluted with a nationwide rollout on the 2012′s.

    Personally, I don’t want to drive a Prius or a LEAF. I don’t want to drive a BMW. Yes I know they are nice to own. And go very fast. Just don’t need the glamor factor or the 18 MPG efficiency. The latest review on the low end $40k Lexus states, “Better to buy a Camry, not much more here”.

    Love the idea of full time smooth electric drive. The most quiet vehicle on the road. Bose sound with a comfortable cabin. Advanced entertainment system. The Volt isn’t a $20k Scion. Or a 6 cylinder Accord EX-L V6 starting at $30k (23-29 MPG).

    =D-Volt


  16. 16
    Brad

    +18

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Brad
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:15 am)

    This seems like a simple fix for GM. If a particular dealer is overcharging for the Volt and GM does not want that to happen then do not allocate any more Volts to that particular dealership. Send them to another dealer that does not do that.


  17. 17
    John Cankar

    +11

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    John Cankar
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:15 am)

    I do understand that 1st year production models have a higher cost – that said, I think the cost of a volt is already too high for me to be interested. If a dealer is going to charge an additional amount (even $20,000!) for the privledge of me buying the car, and GM endorses that line of thinking, then the dealer and GM can just close up shop as far as I’m concerned.


  18. 18
    Donan

    +8

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Donan
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:20 am)

    GM should just not send Volts to dealerships known to price gouge. I am sure many other dealers would gladly like to get their hands on this hot commodity. Dealerships who price gouge are no better than common thiefs on the street.


  19. 19
    Jimza Skeptic

    +13

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:26 am)

    mark ysmith: Why do cars need dealers anyway – why can’t you get a car like you can buy a DELL computer – ordered off the web with the colours and spec you want?
    Maybe GM and whoever should seriously start looking into this! I think SMART started doing this – can’t understand why it doesn’t happen more… obviously dealers would be pissed…
    Test drive at a dealer… but don’t buy it there.  

    Franchise laws by the state and federal government prevent direct sales. Many of the laws date back to depression era. That is why there were so many issues with Chrysler and GM trying to dump dealers even in bankruptcy. The dealers have tried in the past to weed out “bad” dealerships without success. That’s why you started to see them give out awards to “good” dealers. 5-Star awards, means they follow all of the companies guidelines.

    The franchise system was set up in the early days by the companies to help sell their vehicles to far flung places with small populations. A local person selling provided assurance that people could get their vehicles serviced. Laws protecting the dealers came in place to protect the consumer from suddenly having their dealer pulled and nowhere to turn. Obviously thing have changed over the years and many of the problems of the 1920′s & 30′s are no longer around. It would be easy today for the car companies to set up authorized repair shops throughout the country. But no one wants to change the laws.

    On the flip side, a dealer in Wisconsin a few years ago got into trouble for selling vehicles at too low of price. His goal was to get you into his dealership for service. But all the other franchises cried foul! GM cut back the allocation of cars to the guy, he sued and after an undisclosed settlement he is still selling cars, but his prices are not as low as before.


  20. 20
    ClarksonCote

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ClarksonCote
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:28 am)

    Jim I: So why did Lyle take out the dealer’s name from his thread?nbsp; (Quote)

    The originally published email had the dealer’s name removed, Lyle is just displaying what was already published (and how it was already published) on Edmunds.com

    join thE REVolution


  21. 21
    dcm

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    dcm
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:29 am)

    I am glad to see this article because I have been saying this since DAY ONE!!!! I think I am @ 5,000 on the unofficial list here and once of my first posts about price was regarding dealer markup because I had just been through that with the car I bought at the time.

    Everyone back then INSISTED I was wrong and that the dealers would not price people out of this car if GM made the MSRP reasonable.

    $20,000, hilarious….

    I think people also need to educate themselves a bit more on the “tax credit” issue. In reading most of the comments it seems like people think that everyone will be eligble for a $7500 credit and those that arent, well, you must be rich enough you can afford it. That is very much not the case.


  22. 22
    kdawg

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    kdawg
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:31 am)

    I’m in Michigan, about 1 hour from Detroit Metro. All of the Chevy dealers around me (I contacted about 5), still don’t know when or how many Volt’s they are getting. We didnt get into pricing.


  23. 23
    Dave K.

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:34 am)

    I agree… no gouging allowed. When the Chevy order manager calls me in a week or two. My intent is to pay MSRP. He had mentioned doing something on the polished wheel option for me.

    The Volt is overpriced by $2000 at $41k. What has put me over the top on the Volt is something one of our military posters here at gm volt dot com stated a few days ago. He also agrees it’s already priced high. But, in his opinion, the cost of sending all of our energy budget to less than friendly OPEC governments is overriding in importance. He went on to say that we need to siphon the EV production pipeline to make this happen.
    What will the price be on the 2012′s? Probably $39k-$39.5k MSRP. And on the 2013′s? Maybe $36k-$37k? The price will not dip below this for awhile. If it did, the value of the 3 year lease returns will cost GM.

    Don’t pay over MSRP. Buy American and buy green.

    =D-Volt


  24. 24
    Sal MBA

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Sal MBA
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    With the $20k additional charge that deal is charging, what is the break even point for the extra gas savings, 30 years?


  25. 25
    RB

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    RB
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    13 Jim I: So why did Lyle take out the dealer’s name from his thread?


    Maybe the dealer’s name was not present on Lyle’s source for the document.


  26. 26
    EvcosiFree

    -16

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    EvcosiFree
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:40 am)

    (click to show comment)


  27. 27
    RB

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    RB
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:41 am)

    16 Brad: GM does not want that to happen then do not allocate any more Volts to that particular dealership.


    In most cases that would violate the law.
    Originally these laws were passed in most states to protect dealers against the corporation.


  28. 28
    BobS

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    BobS
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:43 am)

    It will be interesting to see if any Volts appear on ebay to be sold to the highest bidder.


  29. 29
    neutron

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    neutron
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:52 am)

    Brad: This seems like a simple fix for GM. If a particular dealer is overcharging for the Volt and GM does not want that to happen then do not allocate any more Volts to that particular dealership. Send them to another dealer that does not do that.  

    A great idea.


  30. 30
    Jimza Skeptic

    +7

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:54 am)

    dcm: I am glad to see this article because I have been saying this since DAY ONE!!!! I think I am @ 5,000 on the unofficial list here and once of my first posts about price was regarding dealer markup because I had just been through that with the car I bought at the time.
    Everyone back then INSISTED I was wrong and that the dealers would not price people out of this car if GM made the MSRP reasonable.
    $20,000, hilarious….  

    I agree with you. There were only a few of us on track with pricing and charging above MSRP and getting the thumbs down negative. Apparently only a few here understand the the S in MSRP means SUGGESTED. I have always paid well under MSRP over the years. I have never taken that number seriously. Now the tables are turned for once in the dealers favor and people are crying. Either most of the people here were saps and have always paid MSRP for a vehicle and don’t understand about horse trading. Or they are too afraid to admit they are no different.

    Using my real estate example, If I put my house market for $150,000. During an open house I have a guy that says, love the house and will give you 150K. Then 30 minutes later someone comes through and says, love the house, and the school is located a block away. He really wants this house and when informed of the previous verbal of 150K says, the he will pay $155K because of the location. Obviously you are going to sell to the guy offering more money. And if you don’t you are lying to yourself.

    We are all the same. If no one is willing to pay 20K above MSRP, the price will drop. If somone is willing to pay, more power to the dealer and they guy. I will wait for VOLT 4.0 when performance and price are better.


  31. 31
    Nelson

    +12

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Nelson
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:01 am)

    As Volts get delivered a list should be compiled of prices paid. I am willing to create a database of this information as long as buyers are willing to email me a scan of the invoice. The only way to prevent gouging is to prove to dealers that buyers are well informed. We need to post a list of gougers and a list of MSRP only dealers with proof (invoice scan). The proof prevents a dealer from claiming it was black listed.

    No MSRP, No Sale!
    NPNS!


  32. 32
    nasaman

    +17

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    nasaman
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:02 am)

    I’ve been talking to a dealer for a week now. He’s expecting to get 7-8 Volts & right now I’m #2 on his list. However, it’s taken him almost that entire week to make me an offer that had been approved by the owner of the dealership, as follows:

    1 – They’ll sell me a volt at MSRP, either leased or purchased, and with no added markup on options

    2 – They require a $5,000 deposit with a signed lease or purchase contract; if I cancel the deal for any reason, they’ll cancel the contract and refund my $5k —but only after they’ve “re-sold” the car

    3 – Although they’re one of the nearest Volt-approved dealers to Florida (still ~1,000 miles from my home), they guarantee that neither their policies nor GM’s will prevent us from concluding the deal

    4 – They believe “almost” any dealer, even those not yet approved, will be able to service my car [I'm not yet convinced this will be the case & I'm certainly not going to drive 2k mi round trip for service]

    /I’ll update this status as appropriate


  33. 33
    Jimza Skeptic

    +6

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:03 am)

    Sal MBA: With the $20k additional charge that deal is charging, what is the break even point for the extra gas savings, 30 years?  

    The break even point will never exist, you will need to buy new batteries over time. Even without mark-up, the VOLT is not about saving money. It is about getting off foreign oil, for people like me that are energy independent hawks, or reducing emissions for the environmentalists in the group.

    The guys ( and there are many) willing to pay above MSRP wants to be the first and the coolest in the neighborhood. Like I said before, GM sold a lot of Hummers (H1) early on to people that no more needed that, than a hole in the head. But they had the money and it was fun to take it off road once a year.


  34. 34
    Robert

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Robert
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:09 am)

    I’ve been told I’m #1 on my dealerships list and it will be for MSRP, but you never know until you sign the contract.
    The car has been ordered, with the color and options I wanted.
    My fear is it will arrive at the dealership, then they will mark up the price, I’d hate to have to say no and start the order process all over again at another dealership, 4 months later.
    Either way I’ll be very vocal and mention the dealerships name after the sale, so far they’ve been treating me well.


  35. 35
    Mike D.

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike D.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:15 am)

    I marked that I hadn’t spoken to a dealer about ordering because I am #2 on their list, with a $1,000 deposit, they just have not gotten back to me about a price and actually going through the ordering process. Hoping it happens soon.


  36. 36
    Rashiid Amul

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:19 am)

    Robert: I’ve been told I’m #1 on my dealerships list and it will be for MSRP, but you never know until you sign the contract.
    The car has been ordered, with the color and options I wanted.
    My fear is it will arrive at the dealership, then they will mark up the price, I’d hate to have to say no and start the order process all over again at another dealership, 4 months later.
    Either way I’ll be very vocal and mention the dealerships name after the sale, so far they’ve been treating me well.  

    Don’t trust them. Get it in writing.


  37. 37
    Anthony

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Anthony
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:28 am)

    Hopefully that dealer gets their allocation revised down to 0.


  38. 38
    Uncle Al

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Uncle Al
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:34 am)

    The whole GM experience leaves me flat. I am going to buy a Leaf. The GM engineers are great but the senior management just doesn’t get it.


  39. 39
    StevePA

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    StevePA
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:41 am)

    To the dealer markup question…Agree with those who comment they’d not do business now or in the future with a dealer who’d mark a unit up 50%. I can see some premium, but that kind of gun and mask routine is the kind of shoddy behavior more akin to the corner used car lot. The subtleties of dealer franchise laws aren’t known to most people; markups on that scale will reflect poorly on GM and the Volt.

    OT: Spoke earlier this week with a sales mgr at a Chevy dealer in TN – asked when he’d be taking orders for Volt, expecting him to indicate sometime in late 2011 for 2012 model per GM’s rollout plan for the rest of the country. He instead responded THIS fall…for delivery sometime in 2011…I’ll be back there within a week or so and will query again for confirmation. He also mentioned he’s only heard from one other prospective customer about Volt…


  40. 40
    Chris C.

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Chris C.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:42 am)

    nasaman: Although they’re one of the nearest Volt-approved dealers to Florida (still ~1,000 miles from my home), they guarantee that neither their policies nor GM’s will prevent us from concluding the deal … They believe “almost” any dealer, even those not yet approved, will be able to service my car [I'm not yet convinced this will be the case & I'm certainly not going to drive 2k mi round trip for service]

    nasaman, I’m in the same boat as you and probably talked to the same dealers. I posted this in the GM-Volt forums here:

    This morning I called the GM Volt info line and asked them about this scenario [essentially, having a breakdown far away from a launch market and needing service]. To my great relief, they said that they will have dealers across the country trained for Volt service, even if they aren’t in one of the 5 Volt launch markets. Restated, anywhere you go in the country one of the Chevy dealerships nearby will be able to do basic service on the Volt, in most cases well before they are selling the car themselves. … To be sure, not every dealership will be able to service a Volt, just as not every dealership will be selling the Volt. But it gives me some peace of mind that I won’t be completely hanging out over the precipice until my market gets launched!

    http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4895


  41. 41
    TSquare

    +5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    TSquare
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:45 am)

    Lets not forget that the MSRP already has a nice profit built in for the dealer. Any markup should be considered gouging.


  42. 42
    NASA-Eng

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    NASA-Eng
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:47 am)

    Question…

    Setting aside the “Pre Ordered” Volts. If a dealer has a Volt sitting on the lot and wants a $5k premium, but you walk in and say you want to lease it can they deny you that option..? Does the dealer effectively OWN the car. If thats the case it would seem the Lease Option is effectively a joke the 1st year.

    I hope GM’s dealers don’t give them some really bad PR.

    Can GM limit the cars they give to a dealer as “Encouragement” to do the right thing. If the dealer that has 9 Volts coming suddenly realizes he is now only getting 4 and is told that other regional dealers have agreed to represent GM in a better light maybe that would help. I think at some point GM has to strong arm their dealers and decide what kind of image they want for their Brand to have. I appreciate the delicate balance, but it’s GM’s national image they need to worry about and maybe protecting a hand full of dealers is not worth it especially if you feel they are gauging customers.

    Go Volt


  43. 43
    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:52 am)

    Sal MBA: With the $20k additional charge that deal is charging, what is the break even point for the extra gas savings, 30 years?  

    In order to know this, it is necessary to accurately forecast fuel costs over the projected life of the car. People looking at gas prices today (approx $2 1/2 a gallon) can easily conclude that the break even point, even for a modest markup, will never come.

    HOWEVER, if the past few years has taught us anything, it is that energy costs can become highly volatile; with spikes similar to those experienced after hurricane Katrina a possibility. The Volt, with it’s dual-fuel capability, is like an insurance policy for an uncertain energy future. It is hard, this far out, to put a number value on that. Under some possible scenarios, a Volt might achieve “break even” in less than 5 years; even with a considerable markup.


  44. 44
    Xiaowei1

    +6

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Xiaowei1
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:54 am)

    Price gouging is inevitable. limited supply for such a popular car will assure this happens. if GM did not want it to happen, they would meet the demand head on – i.e. ramp up production to meet demand with no artificially cap.

    GM may have their reasoning for a cap which has not been disclosed, but I would not blame dealers, i would blame the intentional limit on supply.


  45. 45
    Xiaowei1

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Xiaowei1
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:01 am)

    Rashiid Amul: Don’t trust them. Get it in writing.  (Quote)

    Pay a deposit so consideration for the contract can be shown in a substantive manor (contracts can not be altered once a deal has been made).


  46. 46
    John

    -2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    John
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:11 am)

    So for once a dealership makes money instead of the customers that lie, they say their car is perfect only to find on carfax it’s been hit and in a wreck. Then they want a new car for invoice and retail for their trade in.

    Would you sell you house for wholesale…doubt it.
    Stop bitching


  47. 47
    doggydogworld

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    doggydogworld
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:14 am)

    What’s the difference in a dealer adding $5-20k to meet market demand vs. dealers being strong-armed by GM to sell at MSRP to early customers who turn around and re-sell at MSRP+20k on EBay Motors? If demand is truly that high might as well let the dealers pocket the early profit. Stories of high markups create buzz for the car.

    If people are mad enough about dealer markup just create a web page to publicly list these dealers and encourage people to take all their car business, especially repair which is any dealer’s bread and butter, elsewhere.


  48. 48
    montgoss

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    montgoss
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:25 am)

    dcm:
    I think people also need to educate themselves a bit more on the “tax credit” issue. In reading most of the comments it seems like people think that everyone will be eligble for a $7500 credit and those that arent, well, you must be rich enough you can afford it. That is very much not the case.

    What are you talking about? Everything I’ve seen mentions NO limitations on the person that can claim the credit. And we all agree the Volt qualifies for $7500. So what exactly would reduce eligibility??
    You ever wonder why you’re constantly voted down for spreading this FUD?


  49. 49
    DonC

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: There were only a few of us on track with pricing and charging above MSRP and getting the thumbs down negative. Apparently only a few here understand the the S in MSRP means SUGGESTED.

    Market price is what it is. If it’s below MSRP, which as you point out it usually is, then it’s below. If it’s above, well, then it’s above. If someone is willing to pay it’s hard to condemn “gouging”. At the end of the day it’s just the customer being impetuous. Given all the new introductions of EVs coming, if you wait prices will come down. So rather than seeing price gouging you could say it’s customer impulsiveness. Didn’t your mother say you had to eat your vegetables before you could have your desert?

    The real price cap on the Volt is the Leaf. Some may think the Volt is infinitely superior to the Leaf, and it may be, but just as a Honda Fit can substitute for a BMW 3 series, so a Leaf can substitute for a Volt. The fact is the Leaf is an EV — and apparently more fun to drive one at that– so it’s a reasonable substitute for the Volt for many people.

    With respect to the Leaf, the fact is that GM could have greatly reduced the problem by following Nissan’s lead and allocating the cars to customers rather than dealers. In Nissan’s rollout dealers place the order but the customer has the car allocation. If the customer doesn’t like the dealer price it can move to another dealer. End of “gouging” problem.

    FWIW, as an aside, it’s hard to understand the argument, put forth by dealers, that prices above MSRP are “justified” by the fact that dealers will have to train in order to service the cars. Not so say there is anything wrong selling above MSRP, but training would seem to be a general business expense not an expense to to allocated to the car, which is how it will be treated when supply is more plentiful.


  50. 50
    ricco

    -3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ricco
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:34 am)

    look GM set the price rather high already with tax incentive OK, It lowers the price to a possiable buy for some folks but then the stealerships raise the buying price back up- what’s wrong with this picture. GM’s policy of obtaining a franchaise , should include “cars sold at MSRP only” there already making a profit, ther just robbing the people and people who buy regardless are supporting it.
    I say NO, don’t let it happen…. cars are a bad investment any way if I could ride my bicycle to work I would.
    Oh yeah, question for somebody out there does the generator have to be smoged ? and I heared that sb 535 is going back to the table next week, IF it passes does the Volt get HOV priviledges even though it didn’t pass the AT-PEV ?


  51. 51
    Timaaayyy!!!

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Timaaayyy!!!
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:34 am)

    mark ysmith: Why do cars need dealers anyway – why can’t you get a car like you can buy a DELL computer – ordered off the web with the colours and spec you want?Maybe GM and whoever should seriously start looking into this! I think SMART started doing this – can’t understand why it doesn’t happen more… obviously dealers would be pissed…Test drive at a dealer… but don’t buy it there.  (Quote)

    I think there have been longstanding laws against the producers owning the dealers. Time for those laws to go away. The auto biz is no longer an oligopoly. Let the producers decide if they want to also be dealers or not. Some might decide to use Apple’s store model, some might go half way (take over the urban sales but let the rural dealers survive) and some might not change a thing. But let THEM decide.

    As far as price gouging–what difference does it make what the price split is? Extremely simple from a rational perspective. The problem is purely emotional. Let the dealers decide how to manage those customer emotions–take a big profit margin, or in effect give that margin to your best customers. The big picture is that this kind of problem is one that you don’t mind having. Honda made a very nice living, thank you very much, dealing with this overdemand for decades. It all comes from the product, in the end, so let’s hope that GM keeps coming out with high-demand vehicles like the Volt.


  52. 52
    bobw

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    bobw
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:37 am)

    In fact, what the dealer does for himself who attempts to profit from a model’s rarity is – label her/himself a profiteer and inscrutible operator – one to avoid at all cost.

    I think you mean unscrupulous. Inscrutible means cryptic, of an obscure nature; when you scrutinize them you get no information.


  53. 53
    DonC

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:38 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: The guys ( and there are many) willing to pay above MSRP wants to be the first and the coolest in the neighborhood. Like I said before, GM sold a lot of Hummers (H1) early on to people that no more needed that, than a hole in the head. But they had the money and it was fun to take it off road once a year. 

    Ha ha. Now you can probably buy it from them for under $20K. My guess is that in three years a used Volts will be under $20K. New cars depreciate quickly and tech even faster.


  54. 54
    DonC

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:43 am)

    Timaaayyy!!!: I think there have been longstanding laws against the producers owning the dealers. Time for those laws to go away. The auto biz is no longer an oligopoly. Let the producers decide if they want to also be dealers or not. Some might decide to use Apple’s store model, some might go half way (take over the urban sales but let the rural dealers survive) and some might not change a thing. But let THEM decide.

    Absolutely. No basis for the government distorting the market for the sole purpose of enriching car dealers. While we’re at it, let’s tackle the problem of state regulation of professional groups. Have you noticed the most inefficient sectors of the economy involve professional groups?

    In California one division of the Public Utilities Commission tests and regulates small appliances. Because of this, I rest easy when using my toaster. (I am not making this up.)


  55. 55
    Loboc

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:44 am)

    I generally don’t buy 1st-year cars. I wait for somebody else to beta test the computer code and other systems :) . I therefore have never run into a price gouging situation.

    The last 2 cars I bought were used. New ones I buy are usually not really ‘new’ but demos or lot cars. I have never custom ordered a car.

    I’m not going to be ready to order a Volt until fall of 2011 (2012 model). I also am holding out for an SS version. This one will be custom ordered!


  56. 56
    Mike D

    +6

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike D
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:47 am)

    I’m a capitalist who believes in free market economics, and i love the volt and plan to eventually own one. But with that being said, i have no sympathy for dealerships. They only exist to be a middle man. They provide NOTHING except options you don’t want, and overpriced auto maintenence services. I’ll always know more about the car i’m buying than the dealership does, so the only thing they really provide is a test drive. Sorry, a 30 min test drive isn’t enough for me to pay any more than $50 over MSRP.

    Like some of the comments so far, i whole heartedly agree that buying a car should be like buying a dell. Pick your options, then send in your order online, and wait a couple months while they build your car, which they will then deliver to your house with that $700 destination charge.

    Some a-hole standing in between me and the car i want who wants even $1000 over MSRP for NO REASON other than “the car is hot hot hot!!!” is going to get nothing more than a belly laugh and a middle finger from me. I’ll wait until it isn’t hot anymore! And i’ll hate your dealership for probably the rest of my life, and go out of my way not to buy anything there, ever.

    It isn’t like the dealership markup is for all the R & D gm did, it’s lazy free money for the dealership employees and owners. I’m all for thinking people have the right to make a profit on something, but i and many others only pay our hard earned money for something that is real, like a $41,000 MSRP. I know the $41,000 is making a profit on the production of the individual vehicle itself, if not counting the R&D. I’m ok with that! If GM was selling the volt directly, and selling it at a higher price to cover R&D, i would understand that too. But that isn’t the case.

    I said this before when the first volt selling locations were realeased and everyone who wasn’t in NY, DC, CA, TX, or MI was bummed. Don’t worry! By the time the Volt is actually MSRP everywhere that it is sold, it will be available almost everywhere. It just takes some patience.

    Go Volt. Boo dealerships.


  57. 57
    Jimza Skeptic

    +5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:49 am)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    In order to know this, it is necessary to accurately forecast fuel costs over the projected life of the car.People looking at gas prices today (approx $2 1/2 a gallon) can easily conclude that the break even point, even for a modest markup, will never come.HOWEVER, if the past few years has taught us anything, it is that energy costs can become highly volatile; with spikes similar to those experienced after hurricane Katrina a possibility.The Volt, with it’s dual-fuel capability, is like an insurance policy for an uncertain energy future.It is hard, this far out, to put a number value on that.Under some possible scenarios, a Volt might achieve “break even” in less than 5 years; even with a considerable markup.  

    I agree with almost everything you say, except — I think the OPEC & Oil companies saw where the breaking point was for gas price. When it hit $4.50/gal in Wisconsin everything stopped. Since then the price goes from $2.35 up to $2.85 and usually hold right around $2.65/gal. There have been refinery fires and the gulf oil spill this summer, but prices did not shoot up. I don’t think you will see gas going much above the $3.50 anytime soon as OPEC wants to keep us addicted to the oil drug and will not have anymore of this going into rehab like some did when it went price crazy. ;-)

    Also, this whole idea of saving money with these cars is not the point. Even though I get negged each time, it is about reducing foreign oil and/or the environment. Cruise and the VOLT are the same platform, size, etc and are the easiest to compare head-to-head. A top end Cruise will sell for about $22K and get 35 mpg. The VOLT is at $41K. The difference is $14,000. If you drive both 15,000 per year, the Cruise will use about 430 gallons of gas. If a VOLT driver is really really good and only uses 30 gallons per year, that means the 400 gallons of gas at $3.00 is $1,200 per year add another $50 for oil $1250 a year savings. That takes 11.2 years to pay off. Now add the fact that you will need to buy a new battery in 8 years. I suspect that battery prices will drop, but maybe only to $5K. And you still need another 4 years to payoff.

    The point is to sell the technology based on energy independence for the Republicans and Environmental for Democrats. Both are reason enough. If you try to sell people on cost reduction instead of value added, you will lose.


  58. 58
    CorvetteGuy

    +21

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:54 am)

    First, let me say that I am amazed how many of you are supportive, or at least understanding, of the dealerships’ need to survive in this economy. :)

    Secondly, I don’t believe the Edmonds report of $20,000 over. Now if one of you were to contact that dealer and get the same email back, then I would believe it. If a dealer did send an email like that, I’m sure it’s gone now because of the negative press. (I do believe cars like the Tesla-S and the Fisker will be $20,000 over.)

    Also, any dealer that says “we are only getting 9 cars” and that justifies $20K has no faith that GM will bump up production in the spring BECAUSE of the strong demand.

    We took deposits on all 6 of our allocated cars in about 5 hours on the day the price was announced on this website. I have taken 4 more orders so far, and I believe all of them will get a car in 2011. Have some faith!

    Thirdly, the difference between Dealer Invoice and MSRP is about $1,800 – which is about the same for the Camaro and the Equinox. So I think the dealers are getting the smaller piece of pie across the board, meaning for future sales of VOLT there will be fewer and smaller discounts, if any.

    Lastly, I still get a chuckle from the few of you here that still rant: “I will never pay a penny over MSRP”, and “GM should not give any more cars to dealers that charge over MSRP”!!!

    The car business is NOT the same as a grocery store. Autombiles are one of America’s few commodities that are sold based directly on supply and demand. If GM had the power to control the dealers, that’s called a MONOPOLY.

    I never hear any of you guys complain when you get a ‘discount’, ‘rebate’ or ‘incentive’ that LOWERS your net price. THAAAATTTT’S PERFECTLY OKAY. Right?! But God forbid the dealer earn anything, even 1 penny, for a commodity in such high demand and low production.

    Anyway, I am really impressed that most of you “get it” now. So my work here is done. :) Just kidding.

    Finally, I will let you know that the owner of my dealership is very ‘old school’ and he too wanted to put a $5,000 addendum on the VOLT. But, I took one for the team and convinced him that the negative press for that large of a markup would be bad for business. After having 10 pounds of my A$$$ handed to me, he agreed to stick to a smaller amount of $2,000 over – that’s the best that I could do.

    So, we are not the lowest priced dealer in Southern California, but we are DEFINITELY not the highest. And I am proud to be ‘up front’ about it, unlike some dealers who will tell you one thing on the phone to get you in, and then the truth of the matter when you sit down in the showroom.

    I hope you all get a VOLT this year, from somewhere.


  59. 59
    Jerry Arzt

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jerry Arzt
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    I was disappointed by the high price (no brilliant Toyota strategy about building a large customer base by initailly selling at a loss for GM) and the timid barely adequate warranty (Kia’s is better!). I was also disappointed by the sl——–ow roll-out. However, I was still leaning toward buying a Volt (2nd generation) when I could. BUT, I will NEVER pay a ‘premium’ to any greedy dealer who demands one. They can praise the wonderfulness of capitalism and supply and demand as much as they want, but greed is NOT good, and I won’t do business with the Gordon Gekko’s out there (CorVetteGuy- that means YOU.) If I find that to be the case in my area (Philadelphia), goodby Volt, and hello to one of the other electric cars available in 2012.


  60. 60
    CorvetteGuy

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:12 am)

    Timaaayyy!!!: I think there have been longstanding laws against the producers owning the dealers. Time for those laws to go away. The auto biz is no longer an oligopoly. Let the producers decide if they want to also be dealers or not. Some might decide to use Apple’s store model, some might go half way (take over the urban sales but let the rural dealers survive) and some might not change a thing. But let THEM decide.

    This idea gets pitched here all of the time, but it will never happen. Here’s why: GM manufactures MILLIONS of cars and trucks per year, then they SELL THEM to the dealers who then have to maintain that inventory for months and months until they get sold. Meanwhile, GM has their money already in the bank.

    Now, using the simple example of our crappy economy for the past 24 months, when things go badly for car sales GM would be ‘stuck’ with excess inventory which would cause them to slow development and production of future models.

    It’s okay for the dealer to get ‘stuck’ with the old inventory. It will just sit there until it gets sold. GM or any other car maker could not afford to take that cost on their own.


  61. 61
    Drue

    -3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Drue
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:13 am)

    GM is already gouging us to the point that I won’t even contact a dealer and give him the opportunity to gouge me further. I wanted the Volt, but will settle for the Leaf. Cost is the primary factor. I do wish GM good fortune, and will consider their product in the future, if they are able to bring the cost down. The car I will be driving for the foreseeable future is a Leaf.


  62. 62
    William

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    William
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:17 am)

    QUOTE: ““It’s in a market of its own, where else are you going to go to get one of these things? There is no other choice,” said (Larry) Nitz. ”I’s not like we’re trying to sell two million of these.”

    That is an arrogant, horrific statement and it confirms my fears about GM’s attitude towards the Volt all along:

    (1) They do not intend for it to be a mass produced vehicle; rather that it would be a “show car,” that only more affluent people will be able to afford to acquire.

    (2) They only intend to produce it to kowtow to the government’s new fuel economy standards and produce just enough to meet the new quotas.

    Apparently, this isn’t about getting us off of foreign oil; it’s all smoke and mirrors.

    It sickens me how GM keeps dragging their feet. Mr. Nitz’s statement confirms it all: GM does not intend to mass produce the Volt.

    If they truly cared about getting us off of foreign oil, they would try to sell 2 million of them, in fact—sell as much as they possibly can!

    GM has built a very fine ship with the Volt, yet they are hurling torpedoes at themselves.

    The Volt has to be mass produced to be viable (and profitable) for that matter. Economies of scale. Seriously, did these people study economics in school?

    I keep mentioning the Chevy Impala and I’ll keep mentioning it because it is a great example. Before bankruptcy, GM was cranking out nearly 300,000 Impalas per year at Oshawa. In fact, when the design change occurred in 2005 (for the 2006 model year), they built around 300,000 (IN THE FIRST YEAR OF PRODUCTION!!!!!). The Impala was (and still is) a popular car and it was heavily adopted because of mass production and economies of scale.

    It is crucial that GM quit the “slow ramp up” stuff and instead mass produce the Volt. The Volt has the potential to be huge and to be an “everyday” car and GM has the ability to realize that potential, yet they keep shooting themselves in the foot.


  63. 63
    jeffhre

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:20 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: The break even point will never exist, you will need to buy new batteries over time. Even without mark-up, the VOLT is not about saving money. It is about getting off foreign oil, for people like me that are energy independent hawks, or reducing emissions for the environmentalists in the group.
    The guys ( and there are many) willing to pay above MSRP wants to be the first and the coolest in the neighborhood. Like I said before, GM sold a lot of Hummers (H1) early on to people that no more needed that, than a hole in the head. But they had the money and it was fun to take it off road once a year.

    20 or 30 years sounds good to me. Here’s why. The batteries are over engineered on Gen I and handled with kid gloves. Working battery packs will be pulled from totaled old cars ready to replace dead packs, which really won’t be needed for a long time. After market versions will be designed and built and stored after each technology advance and rarely used. Batteries will become more advanced plus the effects of mass production will tend to make them cheaper over time.

    All of these will tend to push prices down. All while used batteries pile up at junkyards. Few are will buy them because Volt batteries will go on and on. Not many folks except, for Volt owners, would be willing to pay even the lower junkyard prices for old batteries. That’s because the highest priced sales will still be for using the old batteries as replacements for the rare, likely abused, defective or both, dead propulsion batteries.

    I learned all this from watching the movie Bladerunner :) And Prius battery sales.


  64. 64
    herm

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    herm
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:23 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: Cruise and the VOLT are the same platform, size, etc and are the easiest to compare head-to-head. A top end Cruise will sell for about $22K and get 35 mpg. The VOLT is at $41K. The difference is $14,000.

    Out of those $14k, $11k go to LG for the battery, leaving a reasonable $3k for the rest of the bits. I really doubt people will replace their batteries at the end of the warranty, you probably have 7 more years before you get a noticeable drop en AER.. and then of course the Volt still has the range extender to make up the difference. What can they put on a Cruze that will increase the cost to $22k?


  65. 65
    CorvetteGuy

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:30 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: Using my real estate example, If I put my house market for $150,000. During an open house I have a guy that says, love the house and will give you 150K. Then 30 minutes later someone comes through and says, love the house, and the school is located a block away. He really wants this house and when informed of the previous verbal of 150K says, the he will pay $155K because of the location. Obviously you are going to sell to the guy offering more money. And if you don’t you are lying to yourself.
    We are all the same. If no one is willing to pay 20K above MSRP, the price will drop. If somone is willing to pay, more power to the dealer and they guy. I will wait for VOLT 4.0 when performance and price are better.  

    Thank you for making my point. Real Estate, like cars, are a commodity. When you decide to sell your own used car on Craigslist, do you ask the KBB ‘Suggested Selling Price’, or just a “little bit more” knowing whoever calls you is going to DEMAND some sort of discount?

    I guarantee that everyone here that is bitching about dealer markups will do the exact same thing when THEY become the seller of their own car. Hypocrites.


  66. 66
    VoltInSD

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    VoltInSD
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:30 am)

    I have spoken with two dealers in San Diego County. Both are willing to take $1K deposits and will be charging MSRP. :)


  67. 67
    George K

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    George K
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:32 am)

    Finally, I will let you know that the owner of my dealership is very ‘old school’ and he too wanted to put a $5,000 addendum on the VOLT.

    In ’04 (Prius demand far exceeded supply) my Toyota salesman hinted that I could get a Prius immediately for an extra $5000, else it would be a long, long time for delivery. I declined and said that I will sign up for sticker price ( plus $600 destination charge).

    10 long months later I took delivery from the first shipment of ’05′s, at list, with no ’05 markup. And I was fine with that.


  68. 68
    Kent

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kent
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:33 am)

    1) One dealer I spoke with said they were charging $7,500 above MSRP. He said the first 8 people to agree to this will get their first allotment of Volts. I said I’d wait.

    2) Another dealer said they would honor the MSRP but that I would have to buy the premium leather upgrade at $1,395. I agreed to this, placed my $1,000 deposit and am #7 on their list.

    3) About 4-5 years ago, I went to check out a Prius when it was still a hot item. At the time, the dealer told me that Toyota forbade them to charge a premium above MSRP. I also recall GM shutting down a Hummer dealership in my area a couple of years ago because the franchise owner didn’t want to spend the money on the dealership upgrades that GM required. How does GM not have this control over their dealers?

    4) In my 31+ years of driving, I’ve purchased over a dozen new cars. This is the first time, and probably only time, that I will pay MSRP.


  69. 69
    Larry Parylla

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Larry Parylla
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:36 am)

    I just traded in my 30 MPG Lexus GS 450h hybrid and bought a fuel guzzler 12 to 14 MPG diesel to carry my slide in truck camper. I was going to buy a volt for most of my in town driving and use the truck for my camper for my vacations trips. If the Volt is over priced with a $20,000 mark up it would be cheaper to drive my 12 MPG truck. $20,000 would be enough to buy fuel for my truck for as long as I own it.


  70. 70
    Loboc

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:37 am)

    William: That is an arrogant, horrific statement and it confirms my fears about GM’s attitude towards the Volt all along:

    (1) They do not intend for it to be a mass produced vehicle; rather that it would be a “show car,” that only more affluent people will be able to afford to acquire.

    (2) They only intend to produce it to kowtow to the government’s new fuel economy standards and produce just enough to meet the new quotas.

    Given the demand for other hybrids and premium prices (1-2% of all cars sold) GM is justified in not making 2-million of them. This is reality.


  71. 71
    Timaaayyy!!!

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Timaaayyy!!!
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:40 am)

    DonC: Absolutely. No basis for the government distorting the market for the sole purpose of enriching car dealers. While we’re at it, let’s tackle the problem of state regulation of professional groups. Have you noticed the most inefficient sectors of the economy involve professional groups?In California one division of the Public Utilities Commission tests and regulates small appliances. Because of this, I rest easy when using my toaster. (I am not making this up.)  (Quote)

    I love it. The PUC replacing United Laboratories, or simple ‘buyer beware.’ If they would test and regulate the DMV, then we’d REALLY be getting somewhere!

    Over the years, we’ve piled on so many distortions on top of distortions, we can no longer see straight. “The most inefficient sectors of the economy”–here’s one, and it’s an obvious one because you can actually see it: on the resurfacing of the Eisenhower Expressway here in ChiTown, the workers are on strike. Are you kidding me? Blocking a major transportation artery, during a time of mass blue collar availability, using ancient technology and management methods. Inefficient in almost every way possible.

    This is 2010, for Bejesus’ sake. They should be able to cheaply and quickly resurface that sucker for next to nothing. They’ve only had a 100 or so years to practice. Or is that the Cubs? 8^)


  72. 72
    Dave K.

    +7

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:44 am)

    I stopped at the Arco this morning. Put in 8.18 gallons for $25. I’m sick of it.

    =D-Volt


  73. 73
    LazP

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LazP
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:48 am)

    What all these dealers should do put the allocated cars they recieve for action and sell them for the highest bidder. I do not see anything wrong with that. Calling this gouging is unnecessary. Good post No 1. May the supply and demand win out.


  74. 74
    William

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    William
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:49 am)

    Loboc: Given the demand for other hybrids and premium prices (1-2% of all cars sold) GM is justified in not making 2-million of them. This is reality.

    But, people would be more inclined to buy hybrids if they weren’t so much more expensive. Look at what Ford is doing with the Lincoln MKZ Hybrid, by pricing it at the same price as the standard MKZ. That will encourage more hybrid sales.

    GM would sell a lot more Volts if they dramatically cut the price and acted like they actually wanted to sell the car. There are plenty of people that are willing to pay $22-$25K for a Volt, but not $41K. GM is going to be screwed when Hyundai releases the Sonata Hybrid onto the market (which will be priced at around $25K, so I’ve heard).


  75. 75
    DonC

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:49 am)

    Loboc: Given the demand for other hybrids and premium prices (1-2% of all cars sold) GM is justified in not making 2-million of them. This is reality. 

    Your’re being too parochial. We’re talking worldwide sales not only NA sales. And when you look outside NA the market is much better for hybrids. For example, hybrids may be 3% of all cars in NA but they’re 8% of all cars in Japan. Given the price of gas and the short commutes in most of the world, places like China and India, EVs could prove very popular. In some way the Volt is better designed for these places than it is for NA. The 40 mile EV range would work for more like 95% of daily driving rather than 80%, and the Volt is large enough to be used for long trips which isn’t true here IMO because it’s too small for most tastes.


  76. 76
    Fabian

    -2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Fabian
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:54 am)

    My dealer in central California informed me they would not include a markup, aside from their standard $500 per car profit line item. That seem fair to me.

    Also, it was reported here that there was going to be 3 cars per dealer in 2010. This is partially not true. one car will be for mechanic training, one will be a test-driver, and one will be for sale.

    There are simply too many things missing from this car to accept it’s price tag, the Prius blows this away if you drive over 60 miles per day to/from work. I drive 80, and the number don’t add up because my work place will not have rechargers.

    The Prius wins for many reasons, just look at the options list available.

    I wanted to love the Volt, but it’s too little car for the money, plain and simple.


  77. 77
    mikeinatl.

    +8

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    mikeinatl.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:58 am)

    Let the free markets work as they should. I’m all for letting the VOLTs bring whatever price they can command.

    However, maybe there is a better way.

    I have not read all the posts, but if I were a GM dealer allocated just 2 or 3 VOLTs, I might have a very highly publicized auction, giving the excess profits from sales of those first VOLTs to chariites benefiting local wounded vets or surviving families of vets killed in action.

    Those folks have been protecting our oil supply for a very long time and some have paid at terrible price for that. Now, Voltec technology will provide an alternative to our oil addiction. So it seems fitting to help the vets with these VOLT profits.

    Should be GREAT PR for VOLT and GM and help some people who really deserve it.
    (What TV crew could resist showing up for something like that?)

    Go VOLTs for Vets!


  78. 78
    The Grump

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    The Grump
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:59 am)

    “We don’t control any pricing at the dealership,” Peterson said. “However we have suggested strongly that they keep prices in line with what we have offered.”
    —————————————————————–

    Yeah, that statement and a dollar won’t buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Thanks for nothing, Rob.

    This just confirms my fears – GM learned NOTHING from their bailout. Meet the new putz, he’s the same as the old putz (with apologies to The Who). It’s the same as the principal who tells the schoolyard bully to play nice, and then turns his back while the bully beats up on all the kids in the schoolyard.

    GM had a chance to rein in its dealers and get them to treat customers like customers, not suckers. GM could have done Volt pre-orders, and used the dealers as delivery drop sites only, leaving the dealer out of the pricing process. The dealer WOULD get the profit built into the MSRP, but would be unable to gouge customers. Now look at the crap we have to deal with.

    I’ve decided. I will not preorder. I will visit the showroom and inquire about the price. If they try gouging, I walk away. They hate it when you walk away. I’m not against profit – but I’m not sending the dealership’s owner’s kids to college, either. And since I don’t quality for the tax credit, I have to pay the full $41,000.00 price tag. I don’t need to pay more.


  79. 79
    George

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    George
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:59 am)

    I like to use the analogy of concert or show tickets. After working in that business for some time I know a thing or two about customer reactions.

    1. 3rd party ticket broker buys blocks of tickets from box office = Franchised Dealership buying cars from GM

    2. 3rd party ticket broker “marks up” or down tickets based on demand = dealership marking up or down cars based on demand

    You with me so far, all seems fair in the world right?

    3. 3rd party ticket broker discloses to customer at time of purchase that price is above marked face value on ticket = dealership discloses to customer that car costs more than MSRP sticker on car

    Still seems kosher right?

    4. consumer balks at ticket price above face calling broker a “Scalper” = consumer balks at price at dealership but is assured that its the theory of supply and demand that makes this ok.

    So, my question how is a dealership any different than a 3rd party ticket broker? Why are we ok with a dealership charging more than MSRP?

    Also, the “demand” that has been created by the GM marketing machine is for the price of 41k not 61k. Demand will wane and GMs newly acquired “image” will start to tarnish.

    If ANY cars that can compete with the Volt in the next 2 years make it to market, I almost guarantee that all of us that have been scorned will go that way. I know I will, after this pricing debacle I have NO loyalty to GM (as a matter of record, I had little before the debacle).

    You friendly neighborhood curmudgeon!

    RB: One of the nicer aspects of living in the loser zone is that as you cannot place an order, you cannot pay more than MSRP
    But insofar as dealers charging more than MSRP, that’s how the system works — market prices.We didn’t extend much sympathy to dealers when they had to mark down inventory during the economic downturn, and the other side is not to criticize too much on those rare occasions when dealers have a hot product that can be marked up.
    So it seems to me too harsh to say that marking up the price is “gouging” in the sense of marking up the price of bottled water after a hurricane.A new Volt is nice but not something that is a life necessity.If the price is too high, the buyer is free to walk away.  


  80. 80
    Larry Parylla

    -3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Larry Parylla
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:01 am)

    Dave K.: I stopped at the Arco this morning. Put in 8.18 gallons for $25. I’m sick of it.=D-Volt  

    It usually costs me around $100 to fill up my 36 gallon tank but since I have 2 dogs and enjoy traveling a camper is the best way for me to travel. It would have been nice to have a Volt to drive when I wasn’t traveling with my camper but even without the $20,000 mark up it would have been difficult to justify, but with a $20,000 markup it is just plain crazy.

    Maybe in 3 or 4 years from now a Volt may make sense but the dealers may get so ticked off at GM that people will start looking at Honda, Toyota and Nissan. If GM does not do something with the dealers people will move to other manufactures.

    By the way Toyota has been making hybrids for a long time, and I have a feeling they have quietly been using what they learned to surprise everyone with their own extended range plug in.


  81. 81
    crew

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    crew
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:05 am)

    The Volt is quite a game changing car after all of the dealer crap calms down. I’m actually considering a gen III Voltec, not the current car. A nice 60 mile cute ute would be perfect. That is unless gas goes back up to $4 a gallon again.
    Getting caught up in the initial market is just a wast of time for me.

    You have to realize that every time you walk into a showroom to buy ANY car, the salesman’s job is to get the most out of you he can. The Volt is the most current and obvious example of that. There are dealers that are noble and understand how important it is to keep customers by being fair from the beginning. Hopefully we will find them and patronize them and spread the word. But we shop being prepared to deal with the worst and are pleasantly surprised AND LOYAL to the dealers that are fair.

    There is a greater shakeup going on at the dealer level. It’s not as easy to shop dealers as it was 10 years ago. There are quite a few less dealers selling the same car now. We can’t cross shop an Impala against a Grand Prix against a Century against a Cutlass anymore. Never mind tramping from Chevy dealer to Chevy dealer.

    It is more difficult to physically go from one dealer to another and demand the best price.

    GM knows this.
    GM MUST offer us a better car. If it doesn’t then we will, by design, go to another car company. GM loses and the dealer loses.
    GM knows this too.
    The gain is customer service to us and better margins for GM. The dealer and the car company have no choice but to try harder to keep us coming back. Once it loses a long time customer it is nearly impossible to get him back. The nearby dealers must really suck or they sell cars that are embarrassing to own before that customer even considers coming back. Serious Toyota recall problems is the best example of people coming back to GM right now.

    I really hope the Volt is a good car above all else.

    The engineers have created quite a bid of good Karma for the car. I’m not throwing it away for the current nonsense from car salesmen that are just being car salesmen.


  82. 82
    JohnK

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JohnK
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:05 am)

    StevePA: He instead responded THIS fall…for delivery sometime in 2011

    That goes along with my hunch that a good part of the USA will see Volts by May or June of 2011. Shortly before cancelling my order at the Ohio dealer they told me that they would get my car soon. Would not even surprize me if they could get one before the Michigan dealer.


  83. 83
    Timaaayyy!!!

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Timaaayyy!!!
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:06 am)

    CorvetteGuy: This idea gets pitched here all of the time, but it will never happen. Here’s why: GM manufactures MILLIONS of cars and trucks per year, then they SELL THEM to the dealers who then have to maintain that inventory for months and months until they get sold. Meanwhile, GM has their money already in the bank. Now, using the simple example of our crappy economy for the past 24 months, when things go badly for car sales GM would be ’stuck’ with excess inventory which would cause them to slow development and production of future models.It’s okay for the dealer to get ’stuck’ with the old inventory. It will just sit there until it gets sold. GM or any other car maker could not afford to take that cost on their own.  (Quote)

    I appreciate your data points on customer orders and such–thanks.

    But I disagree with you if you’re saying vehicle distribution should not be allowed to be combined with research, design, production and finance. That is government interference where it is not needed, IMO. Give the businesses the right to make their own decisions, then let the competitive chips fall where they may.

    The question is really, why isn’t the system allowed to improve? Who’s protecting who anymore? And why? I would guess that coherent answers no longer exist, if they ever did. I would venture to say the efficiency blockage is coming from the government money trail one way or another. For example, if a customer makes an internet purchase of a car, now who gets the sales tax? What politician no longer gets a campaign contribution?


  84. 84
    CorvetteGuy

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:15 am)

    Off topic but still funny:

    We just received our first, and probably only, 75th anniversary Chevrolet Suburban LTZ. MSRP = $60,000.00

    Eat your heart out Cadiilac!


  85. 85
    GilD

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    GilD
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:15 am)

    Rashiid Amul: Then what does the dealer become, just a service station?  (Quote)

    works for me, they are all snakes anyway!


  86. 86
    crew

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    crew
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:18 am)

    The GM Volt.

    Available at Saturn.

    Oh, well!


  87. 87
    CaptJackSparrow

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CaptJackSparrow
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:19 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Off topic but still funny:

    We just received our first, and probably only, 75th anniversary Chevrolet Suburban LTZ. MSRP = $60,000.00

    Eat your heart out Cadiilac!

    For 60G’s! It better come with some strippers!! And a sh|tload of BEER!!


  88. 88
    CorvetteGuy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:21 am)

    Timaaayyy!!!:
    I appreciate your data points on customer orders and such–thanks.But I disagree with you if you’re saying vehicle distribution should not be allowed to be combined with research, design, production and finance.That is government interference where it is not needed, IMO.Give the businesses the right to make their own decisions, then let the competitive chips fall where they may.The question is really, why isn’t the system allowed to improve?Who’s protecting who anymore?And why?I would guess that coherent answers no longer exist, if they ever did.I would venture to say the efficiency blockage is coming from the government money trail one way or another.For example, if a customer makes an internet purchase of a car, now who gets the sales tax?What politician no longer gets a campaign contribution?  

    Those issues I can’t speak to, but as a casual observer I think the car makers have their hands full already dealing with vendors all over the globe, unions, our own government along with other world governments, taxes and the press.

    I kinda believe they prefer to let the dealers handle inventory problems once those cars leave the factory.


  89. 89
    CorvetteGuy

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:27 am)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    For 60G’s! It better come with some strippers!! And a sh|tload of BEER!!  

    Hey! Only $1000 per month for 60 months at 0.00% APR. Can’t beat that with a stripper pole!


  90. 90
    Tony Gray

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tony Gray
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:29 am)

    So why do we have a $7500 tax credit for a vehicle that apparently, the market will bear a significantly higher price point?

    It appears that our tax money will NOT be used to help get a person into a Volt that they otherwise would not be able to afford, but rather be used to directly support a private entity (the dealer). This incentive will now do nothing to encourage folks to get on the bandwagon.

    I don’t harbor ill will towards any dealer charging what they want. Free market economy. They should be able to get whatever they can. I DO have a problem with the taxpayers at large funding a large chunk of that surcharge.

    I think strings should be put on that the credit only applies to vehicles sold at or below MSRP. That would bring the demand more in line with what I think is the initial intent of the incentive.


  91. 91
    Noel Park

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Noel Park
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:29 am)

    RB: A new Volt is nice but not something that is a life necessity. If the price is too high, the buyer is free to walk away.

    #1

    You got that right! +1


  92. 92
    CaptJackSparrow

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CaptJackSparrow
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:30 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Hey! Only $1000 per month for 60 months at 0.00% APR. Can’t beat that with a stripper pole!

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!


  93. 93
    Carter F. Smith

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Carter F. Smith
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:30 am)

    I won’t be spending the MSRP for this car — my max is about $25,000 (after incentives) for something that takes me from A to B and back unless I am making up the difference in gas savings. For 80 mile per day round trips 7 months out of the year, I doubt that would happen.

    But why are we questioning these business owners? They are simply following GMs lead and taking more than the market will bear. Vote with your wallet and buy a Ford, Nissan, or even a Chrysler, then tell GM and your local neighborhood dealer what you did.


  94. 94
    Timaaayyy!!!

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Timaaayyy!!!
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:33 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Those issues I can’t speak to, but as a casual observer I think the car makers have their hands full already dealing with vendors all over the globe, unions, our own government along with other world governments, taxes and the press.
    I kinda believe they prefer to let the dealers handle inventory problems once those cars leave the factory.

    Maybe, but if they think they can make more money owning the distribution, they should be allowed to do that. Not even giving them the chance is bad.

    Off our topic: I think it’s really exciting that you think you could sell 2x-3x your Volt allocation. GM must love to hear that.


  95. 95
    Jason Schade

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jason Schade
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:33 am)

    This just goes to show GM business skills. Why not make the first 1,000 Volts Special Edition, with a gold emblem inside the car somewhere and add $20,000 to the MSRP, special order only, you know there are 1,000 rich people out there that have to be first and would pay that premium, especially for a special edition model. Ah it’s only $20,000,000, guess that’s a drop in the bucket, when you have billions in taxpayer money. Another way to look at it, is that it is throwing a bone to the dealers who have been suffering. Dealers should be able to mark their cars to market price, and in fact since the Volt is limited, and people will want to look at it, it will bring in dealer traffic. Why let the people magnet go insanely quick for less than what someone is willing to pay for it?


  96. 96
    The Grump

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    The Grump
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:33 am)

    CorvetteGuy: The car business is NOT the same as a grocery store. Autombiles are one of America’s few commodities that are sold based directly on supply and demand. If GM had the power to control the dealers, that’s called a MONOPOLY.
    I never hear any of you guys complain when you get a ‘discount’, ‘rebate’ or ‘incentive’ that LOWERS your net price. THAAAATTTT’S PERFECTLY OKAY. Right?! But God forbid the dealer earn anything, even 1 penny, for a commodity in such high demand and low production.

    ————————————————————————-

    And I guess milk, rakes, cocoa powder, pantyhose, music CD’s, plastic oil funnels, Weed-B Gone, mousetraps, sports bobbleheads, everything in Wal-Mart, etc, etc, etc is not sold based on supply and demand ?

    And no, if GM controlled all of ITS OWN dealers, that wouldn’t be a monopoly. If Gm controlled all dealers (Ford, Toyota, Kia, etc), THAT would be a monopoly.

    It’s just good business practice NOT to treat your customers like dirt. GM should have set a higher price for the Volt in stone, rather than have a bunch of yahoo dealers run the price up and down the field. That’s why, even if you get a good deal at a dealer, you still wonder if you got screwed. Thank God for Edmonds.com – they give you the means to fight back against the dealers. You would think $1800.00 built in profit from the MSRP would be enough for them.


  97. 97
    Streetlight

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Streetlight
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:40 am)

    Premiums are standard business. For example, VW dealers do this routinely. Try buying certain models by Corvette, BMW or Porsche on Stevens Creek (auto row) in San Jose. Furthermore, you know there will be VOLTS on eBay. Just like there’ve been a number of TESLA’s.

    Are dealers going to get a premium that brings a VOLT comparable to the price of a Corvette or Porsche? Of course not. Now PT Barnum once said “There’s one born every minute”.

    On the other hand, for the buyer that has everything, sporting a 2011 VOLT ups your buddies plain old ordinary 2010 ZR1 (Corvette).


  98. 98
    RVD

    -5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    RVD
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:45 am)

    totally expected from GM


  99. 99
    Jerome

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jerome
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:45 am)

    Let the free market reign. A dealer can charge whatever they want. If they feel the trade-off on selling a few cars at $20k over MSRP is worth the bad press that’s their business decision. As others have said when I go to sell something I’m after the highest price I can get….why should a dealer be different…other than the dealer has to worry about repeat business/bad publicity.

    That said, the dealer doesnt operate in a vacuum….bad publicity that a single dealer generates will wash over GM, the Volt and all other dealers….that is the one wrinkle in this free market exercise that bothers me. GM/Volt does not need to be doing damage control because of one (or a few) dealers trying to get maximum price.


  100. 100
    CorvetteGuy

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    The Grump: GM should have set a higher price for the Volt in stone, rather than have a bunch of yahoo dealers run the price up and down the field.

    That was the Saturn business model. Look where they ended up.


  101. 101
    JonP.

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JonP.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:50 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Thirdly, the difference between Dealer Invoice and MSRP is about $1,800 – which is about the same for the Camaro and the Equinox. So I think the dealers are getting the smaller piece of pie across the board, meaning for future sales of VOLT there will be fewer and smaller discounts, if any.

    CorvetteGuy,
    Does the 1800$ include the dealer holdback from GM or is that before the holdback?


  102. 102
    Timaaayyy!!!

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Timaaayyy!!!
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:55 am)

    Timaaayyy!!!: This is 2010, for Bejesus’ sake. They should be able to cheaply and quickly resurface that sucker for next to nothing. They’ve only had a 100 or so years to practice. Or is that the Cubs? 8^)

    Here’s a video of a train laying its own track. At least SOME progress is being made. Woohoo!

    http://www.wimp.com/traintrack/


  103. 103
    PO'd in TX

    -4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    PO'd in TX
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:13 pm)

    GM saying they have no power over the dealers is a total crock. I hope behind closed doors GM is taking a hard line with Dealer who don’t tow the line. For example, They can restrict current and future shipments of this and other models. The can remove the dealer from “preferred” dealer programs, such as government sales & service contracts

    Is it any wonder why the car industry has got image problems. Given the price and dealer stunts, I’ll look for my alternative energy vehicle elsewhere.

    Pa


  104. 104
    Volt Lover

    +9

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Volt Lover
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:14 pm)

    One San Jose CA dealer wants $7500 over MSRP. Two other CA dealers want only MSRP. They get my respect! I ordered and am paying MSRP.
    A friend of mine bought 3 new cars from the San Jose dealer, and when he found out about the $7500 over MSRP, swears he’ll buy no more cars from that dealer.
    Why arent ALL dealers greedy? Because some are honest business people, and deserve our business. Now I know who will be servicing my Volt!
    Thanks to GM for having the guts and unwavering determination to bring this car to reality.


  105. 105
    Jack Wagon

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jack Wagon
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:16 pm)

    To all the little children: here’s something to turn your wine into grins:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA


  106. 106
    Rashiid Amul

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    George K:
    In ‘04 (Prius demand far exceeded supply) my Toyota salesman hinted that I could get a Prius immediately for an extra $5000, else it would be a long, long time for delivery.I declined and said that I will sign up for sticker price ( plus $600 destination charge).10 long months later I took delivery from the first shipment of ’05’s, at list, with no ‘05 markup.And I was fine with that.  

    Ahhh. Patience is a virtue, GeorgeK.


  107. 107
    Nelson

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Nelson
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:21 pm)

    IMO it seems to me that during a recession and poor economic times, gouging on MSRP of high demand items like the Volt only clouds the recovery of the auto industry. It becomes unclear to investors why all Volts haven’t sold. Is it the competition, the MSRP or the gouging that’s keeping Volt sales down? I know during times of oil shortage the Federal and local governments crack down on gas stations price gouging. If dealer gouging was out of the picture, it would be better for GM’s recovery efforts and image. It’s not in the country’s best interest to price gouge the Volt.

    NPNS!


  108. 108
    ricco

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    ricco
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:24 pm)

    If you mistreat the consumer they will show you no love. Nissan was counting on the greed of
    chevy dealerships to sabatoge there buyers, Nissan didn’t have to do anything. It’s great counting on stupitity when it involves your competion. GM should insist on MSRP when there overall goal
    really on this car is to make an Impact on the enviroment- get the car out to the public!

    Well at least Nissan has the right idea, you’ll see alot of volt buyers coming over to nissan leaf
    to contribute to being green.


  109. 109
    DonC

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Those issues I can’t speak to, but as a casual observer I think the car makers have their hands full already dealing with vendors all over the globe, unions, our own government along with other world governments, taxes and the press.

    His point is that if using a dealer network is the most efficient and effective way to distribute vehicles then so be it, but it should be a market based decision not a political decision foisted on all car manufacturers and consumers by state legislators more interested in campaign contributions than the public good. As it works now, if the rules applying to cars were applied to consumer electronics, it would be illegal for Apple to operate Apple Stores.

    Car dealers by and large have used political influence to make themselves more more profitable through a host of state laws that tilt the table in their favor. This is understandable but from a policy standpoint not desirable since it represents a form of government welfare for those who shouldn’t need it. It also demonstrates how no one likes government interference in the marketplace unless it they do.


  110. 110
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:34 pm)

    Mike D: Some a-hole standing in between me and the car i want who wants even $1000 over MSRP for NO REASON other than “the car is hot hot hot!!!” is going to get nothing more than a belly laugh and a middle finger from me. I’ll wait until it isn’t hot anymore! And i’ll hate your dealership for probably the rest of my life, and go out of my way not to buy anything there, ever.

    MSRP is not a price. It’s a suggested price. The suggestion could be lower or higher. The market actually determines price in a free market. If you hate people for charging market rates, then you don’t love free markets at all. But from the statement above, you do seem to like trying to manipulate and threaten so that sellers will sell at the price you like. Militant posturing an angry rants don’t set prices either. But they do add more information to the market, and the market will set the price. Dealers may try to sell for $20,000 over MSRP, but that will inform the market also. (In those cases I think we could bring in a task force made of GM-Volt folks with giant price gouger signs. :) )

    If you want to be early to the party, there’s a free market solution for that, give the man his thousand bucks. You want to wait a while? He may cut a thousand bucks from MSRP at that point. Because of your angry rant or to make every one happy? Or is it because the market set the new price and he has little or no choice. Will your rant now be no, I’m not paying a thousand under MSRP, the price is MSRP and that’s it.

    Tony Gray: I think strings should be put on that the credit only applies to vehicles sold at or below MSRP. That would bring the demand more in line with what I think is the initial intent of the incentive.

    Seems like an interesting idea with some potential, but hard to enforce and having a lot of wiggle room.


  111. 111
    MarkInWI

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MarkInWI
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:34 pm)

    <I will let you know that the owner of my dealership is very ‘old school’ and he too wanted to put a $5,000 addendum on the VOLT. But, I took one for the team and convinced him that the negative press for that large of a markup would be bad for business. After having 10 pounds of my A$$$ handed to me, he agreed to stick to a smaller amount of $2,000 over – that’s the best that I could do.So, we are not the lowest priced dealer in Southern California, but we are DEFINITELY not the highest. And I am proud to be ‘up front’ about it, unlike some dealers who will tell you one thing on the phone to get you in, and then the truth of the matter when you sit down in the showroom.I hope you all get a VOLT this year, from somewhere.  (Quote)

    I think that most of us can agree that there is a difference between a mark-up and gouging.


  112. 112
    Loboc

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:35 pm)

    The Grump: GM could have done Volt pre-orders, and used the dealers as delivery drop sites only, leaving the dealer out of the pricing process.

    Never going to happen. If GM could do this, the dealer would just make up for it in service charges. You’re pretty much stuck going to a GM dealer if anything goes wrong with Volt.

    I recently bought a used Dodge. It cost $252.89 for a spare key. Ya can’t just go to Ace Hardware and get a key cut any more. Keys have computer chips in them now that need to be programmed to your specific car. The dealer has a monopoly on what to charge.


  113. 113
    Mike D

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike D
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:36 pm)

    Corvetteguy,

    How would you like it if every day when you came downstairs for your morning coffee, you saw me there instead, with a little kiosk in your kitchen that i felt i should build, with a sign on it that says “coffee”. I was the only way you could get your coffee, and i would refuse to give it to you unless you paid me an amount that i would decide based on how tired you looked and how much you wanted it. You could buy any brand of coffee at the store that you wanted, but the only way to enjoy it was for me to serve it to you for a price.

    And if you refused to pay me, i would whine and complain about how i needed a job too just like everyone else, and how times were tough when i was only charging you very little for my services, not making enough to pay for the kiosk that i built, and felt YOU needed to pay for.

    You would think: I don’t see any sort of need for this type of coffee serving business. I don’t NEED another middleman between me and my coffee.

    And hopefully that makes you understand how i and many others feel about car dealerships. As i said in my previous post, they don’t DO anything. The only difference between the moment a car dealership gets a car and the moment they sell it, is tearing off some stickers, putting another sticker on, washing it and parking it. Do you understand how although im a capitalist, i give my money to people who actually work for it???

    I don’t think dealerships should be FORCED to sell cars at any price, i think cars being ONLY available through dealerships is a monopoly to me, because if people could go online and pick their options and build their exact car and have GM build it and deliver it to their door at MSRP, then the number of dealerships would drastically decrease. The only people who would go to them would be test drivers, and people who knew NOTHING about a car they wanted, and needed someone to walk them through how to turn the car on and move the seat and adjust their mirrors. So i hope you can understand that someone like me isn’t happy when the ONLY way for me to get a new car, is to help pay for a showroom and a staff, who served me in no way, shape, or form. They build a huge building with a showroom and expect people like me to be happy that i’m paying for their sign, lights, water bill, heating bill, employee comissions, etc in order to get a new car.

    Do you understand how i would like the choice of not paying for the property of a middleman who in NO WAY helped me? If manufacturers bothered to set up online processes like this, there WOULD be far fewer dealerships. I understand that its their choice that they dont, and that’s the way it is. But i hope YOU understand that thousands of people like me will say good riddance to every dealership that ever closes. And obviously you can imagine how humorous i would think it was when a dealership tried to justify thousands over MSRP because “it’s a commodity”. If it was a commodity, the dealership would have paid more for it, rather than just lazily asking more for it, because they’re the only way a person can get one.

    People who sell their houses to the highest bidder aren’t hypocrates because they want to have the option of directly ordering a car through a manufacturer, and don’t want to pay the heating bill, electric bill, and property taxes for a building that they had no say in creating, and to people in that building who did nothing but take some stickers off and wash it and polish the wheels in order to drive a new car.


  114. 114
    Ben Goddard

    -8

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Ben Goddard
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:36 pm)

    I think General Motors is handling the Volt wrong showing the same attitudes that pushed them into bankruptcy.

    The Volt is NOT a proven gas electric vehicle like the Prius is. Each model of the Prius was tweaked and perfected until the current vehicles are virtually “bullet proof”. I would feel perfectly safe loading my family in my 2009 hybrid and driving thousands of miles on vacation. I know I would not have any problems and, if I did, there are many well trained Dealers throughout the US that could help me.

    The Volt will take years to gain this kind of respect. The few GM dealers that sell and service them will be few and far between. I would not want to buy one today.


  115. 115
    CorvetteGuy

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:36 pm)

    JonP.: CorvetteGuy,Does the 1800$ include the dealer holdback from GM or is that before the holdback?  (Quote)

    The $1800 is after holdback. The info that I have access to today does not show dealer holdback amount yet. I know a lot of people like to call holdback part of the profit, but it’s not. Whatever bone GM gives the dealer for holdback only covers fixed operational expenses. It doesn’t cover my salary that’s for damn sure.


  116. 116
    BLIND GUY

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    BLIND GUY
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    crew Says
     
    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:18 am)

    The GM Volt.

    Available at Saturn.

    Oh, well!  

    Yes Sir, our buying experience at a Saturn dealer was actually pleasant. No games or haggling about price or extras. It was a business transaction with mutual respect and GM would be wise to bring back that business model.


  117. 117
    Jim I

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jim I
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:45 pm)

    nasaman: I’ve been talking to a dealer for a week now. He’s expecting to get 7-8 Volts & right now I’m #2 on his list. However, it’s taken him almost that entire week to make me an offer that had been approved by the owner of the dealership, as follows:1 – They’ll sell me a volt at MSRP, either leased or purchased, and with no added markup on options2 – They require a $5,000 deposit with a signed lease or purchase contract; if I cancel the deal for any reason, they’ll cancel the contract and refund my $5k —but only after they’ve “re-sold” the car3 – Although they’re one of the nearest Volt-approved dealers to Florida (still ~1,000 miles from my home), they guarantee that neither their policies nor GM’s will prevent us from concluding the deal
    4 – They believe “almost” any dealer, even those not yet approved, will be able to service my car [I'm not yet convinced this will be the case & I'm certainly not going to drive 2k mi round trip for service]/I’ll update this status as appropriate  

    ================================

    It is the service issue that has me the most concerned. This is the first model year of a brand new car design, and there are bound to be problems that will require service.

    My local dealer has absolutely no information about servicing the Volt. So buying a car from that far away, and then having to think about trucking it back to get it worked on, is not a good plan, IMHO.

    According to the GM web site, there are Volt dealers about 100-125 miles away in NY state. But I think that is even too far.

    As much as I hate to say it, I am going to wait until Sweeney Chevrolet in Boardman, OH calls me and tells me that they are ready to sit down and order my car.

    And I still have my business here, so I try to buy local as much as possible. It is just something I have always done….


  118. 118
    CorvetteGuy

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

    Mike D: Corvetteguy,How would you like it if every day when you came downstairs for your morning coffee, you saw me there instead, with a little kiosk in your kitchen that i felt i should build, with a sign on it that says “coffee”. I was the only way you could get your coffee, and i would refuse to give it to you unless you paid me an amount that i would decide based on how tired you looked and how much you wanted it. You could buy any brand of coffee at the store that you wanted, but the only way to enjoy it was for me to serve it to you for a price.And if you refused to pay me, i would whine and complain about how i needed a job too just like everyone else, and how times were tough when i was only charging you very little for my services, not making enough to pay for the kiosk that i built, and felt YOU needed to pay for.You would think: I don’t see any sort of need for this type of coffee serving business. I don’t NEED another middleman between me and my coffee. And hopefully that makes you understand how i and many others feel about car dealerships. As i said in my previous post, they don’t DO anything. The only difference between the moment a car dealership gets a car and the moment they sell it, is tearing off some stickers, putting another sticker on, washing it and parking it. Do you understand how although im a capitalist, i give my money to people who actually work for it??? I don’t think dealerships should be FORCED to sell cars at any price, i think cars being ONLY available through dealerships is a monopoly to me, because if people could go online and pick their options and build their exact car and have GM build it and deliver it to their door at MSRP, then the number of dealerships would drastically decrease. The only people who would go to them would be test drivers, and people who knew NOTHING about a car they wanted, and needed someone to walk them through how to turn the car on and move the seat and adjust their mirrors. So i hope you can understand that someone like me isn’t happy when the ONLY way for me to get a new car, is to help pay for a showroom and a staff, who served me in no way, shape, or form. They build a huge building with a showroom and expect people like me to be happy that i’m paying for their sign, lights, water bill, heating bill, employee comissions, etc in order to get a new car.Do you understand how i would like the choice of not paying for the property of a middleman who in NO WAY helped me? If manufacturers bothered to set up online processes like this, there WOULD be far fewer dealerships. I understand that its their choice that they dont, and that’s the way it is. But i hope YOU understand that thousands of people like me will say good riddance to every dealership that ever closes. And obviously you can imagine how humorous i would think it was when a dealership tried to justify thousands over MSRP because “it’s a commodity”. If it was a commodity, the dealership would have paid more for it, rather than just lazily asking more for it, because they’re the only way a person can get one.People who sell their houses to the highest bidder aren’t hypocrates because they want to have the option of directly ordering a car through a manufacturer, and don’t want to pay the heating bill, electric bill, and property taxes for a building that they had no say in creating, and to people in that building who did nothing but take some stickers off and wash it and polish the wheels in order to drive a new car.  (Quote)

    Your heartfelt argument tells me that you are also angry with every grocery store and 7-Eleven for selling you products that they just took out of a cardboard box and placed on a shelf. They paid a fixed cost to a wholesaler for those items and then marked those up to what they think is a fair price too.

    Why aren’t you bitching about that? I suppose you go directly to Seattle for “Seattle’s Best Coffee”. Or you run down to the nearest dairy and milk the cow yourself for the cream. Take a quick hop over to Honolulu to pick up your natural cane sugar?!

    Get real. Every product has a distribution system, and as I have already explained, the automakers can’t afford to take on the cost of storing millions of cars and trucks until the day comes around that you decide to buy one. That is the purpose of the dealer, in addition to offering service for the product.

    We are not the enemy, just the last link in the distribution chain. And speaking of coffee, try the decaffinated brands. They are just as tasty as the regular kind and you will be less stressed.


  119. 119
    jeff j

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeff j
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    I think I’m going to go out and lease a GM volt the next day I’m going to put that volt on eBay for a $20,000 profit ,if and when I sell that vehicle I’m going to go out and buy two more I’m going to be a millionaire and be laughing all the way to the bank. Stop crying stopped whining and just become a capitalist and make money. With all this money I’m going to make on the GM volt I’m buying a little slice of heaven in the Caribbean and spend the rest of my day’s spearfishing and drinking cold beer on my deck overlooking the blue ocean. And I will owe it all the GM and the Volt.


  120. 120
    MarkInWI

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    MarkInWI
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    Tony Gray: So why do we have a $7500 tax credit for a vehicle that apparently, the market will bear a significantly higher price point?It appears that our tax money will NOT be used to help get a person into a Volt that they otherwise would not be able to afford, but rather be used to directly support a private entity (the dealer). This incentive will now do nothing to encourage folks to get on the bandwagon.I don’t harbor ill will towards any dealer charging what they want. Free market economy. They should be able to get whatever they can. I DO have a problem with the taxpayers at large funding a large chunk of that surcharge.I think strings should be put on that the credit only applies to vehicles sold at or below MSRP. That would bring the demand more in line with what I think is the initial intent of the incentive.  (Quote)

    When talking about what the market will bear remember that the curve dictates that quantity and price will be inversely related. The goal of the incentive is to get many people to adopt, not just the few who would buy it anyway. With limited initial supply, you are going to see a higher initial price than the market will bear once supply has increased. Once we move past that initial period the incentive will make the car available to at least some folks who might not otherwise make the purchase. There are two real questions from a public policy perspective. First, what is the cost of getting each marginal sale? Clearly, it’s more than $7500 if you spread out the cost of those who would have purchased at a higher price, or even with no incentive at all. Second, how much impact will the increased sales have on the accleration of the technology to wide-spread adoption at cheaper prices, and what is the value of that accleration to the nation as a whole (lower oil imports, lower trade deficits, etc)? We need a graduate student in economics who is looking for a thesis.


  121. 121
    Dave

    -6

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

    GM steered me from the car and brand after getting on a waiting list for this car with an outlook around 20 grand. I could see even 20% over projected but 100%? People on the so-called list weren’t even givin an option to purchase at the new MSRP as I imagine we were just a tool to see how much hype there was to get the price where it is now. Car turned out to be a middle class looking car with a upper class price tag. I do a lot of rural driving so just a regular hybrid will serve its purpose if I go that route since I can get a lot more car for 25% less. First videos we were given of this car were awesome and then we went from a exotic looking car to leftover parts from early 2000 malibu. A handful of these cars are not going to make us free from foreign oil dependency !


  122. 122
    Prius Powa

    -12

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Prius Powa
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (12:57 pm)

    (click to show comment)


  123. 123
    CorvetteGuy

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    DonC: His point is that if using a dealer network is the most efficient and effective way to distribute vehicles then so be it, but it should be a market based decision not a political decision foisted on all car manufacturers and consumers by state legislators more interested in campaign contributions than the public good. As it works now, if the rules applying to cars were applied to consumer electronics, it would be illegal for Apple to operate Apple Stores.
    Car dealers by and large have used political influence to make themselves more more profitable through a host of state laws that tilt the table in their favor. This is understandable but from a policy standpoint not desirable since it represents a form of government welfare for those who shouldn’t need it. It also demonstrates how no one likes government interference in the marketplace unless it they do.

    I didn’t say it was a bad idea. I just said it will never happen. I think it would be cool to order a car online and have it delivered to my door. But GM needs to sell MILLIONS of cars and trucks every year to survive. Using the ‘Jack in the Box’ approach: “We don’t build them until you order them”… would be a logistical nightmare and increase costs across the board, especially for the parts vendors who would be sitting on inventory until the order comes in 1 at a time?!!!

    It’s a nice dream. Like “World Peace”. But it is too impractical to implement.


  124. 124
    James

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:09 pm)

    I wholeheartedly disagree with RB in post #1.

    I nearly completely agree with William in post #62 – the only place where we’d part ways is that William asserts the Impala is an excellent vehicle ( LOL ) – when the Impala has been compared to any and all of it’s competitors it has finished dead last. the Chevrolet Impala is most noted for being the epitome of what we think when we think “rental car”.
    William and I will agree Larry Nitz, Executive Director of Hybrid and Electric Vehicles, is a dork. At least Larry Nitz is a dork with a big mouth. As a GM yes-man he’s come out with his quote in this article and outed GM’s entire view of hybrid and electric cars and trucks. Was there any doubt before? His quote just sums up what I have asserted on these webpages for years now. Now do you believe me?!

    Larry Nitz from the article: “It’s in a market of its own, where else are you going to go to get one of these things? There is no other choice,” said Nitz. ”It’s not like we’re trying to sell two million of these.”

    Larry, Toyota has sold much more than 2 million Prius. Those 2.4 million cars have….yes they have….made a dent in crude oil consumption and environmental footprint. Two things GM couldn’t give a bloody flippin’ hoot about.

    RB recieved the day’s highest +1s today by writing in post #1 that we chould be crying dealers a river. He states that we didn’t show them sympathy during the economic downturn. Hey, it’s still an economic downturn with lots of signs it will get worse before it gets better. Everyone is suffering from the economy today. Does this mean we should just sympathize with any business who is jacking the price of their product sky high? Should we show great empathy as they shut us out from buying an achievable commodity now only so for the rich?!Federal programs to artificially boost the auto market (Cash For Clunkers), the housing market and job market have come to an end and it’s a very down market nationwide for real estate and even worse for jobs. For RB to hand nationwide GM dealers a free pass to jack up Volt’s price into the stratosphere is just ludicrous. People need cars, and if you frequent gm-volt.com you definately believe the USA and world need electric vehicles worse than most of the population know. The reasons are legion.

    I would not look at a dealer asking $10-20,000 over invoice for a Volt an differently than the Honda dealer who looked at me with doe eyes after a 4 day windstorm power outage in my area and stated ( asking $1200 over invoice ) that I could just step aside and give my place in line over to the next guy if I didn’t like the price – and that “it’s not price gouging, it’s supply and demand” ! I relentlessly tell friends and neighbors to not do business with this Honda shop and people are appalled at how they could do such ( my kids were cold – no fireplace in my home ) a thing in a time of crisis. We are in crisis now being beholden to foreign oil from our enemies to power our transportation. We are in crisis when you look at the Gulf today. We are in crisis if you live in a heavily populated area like I do and try to breathe the air!

    So yes, RB, it is gouging, plain and simple.

    Today’s news is dominated by the EPA Chief blatantly lying to the American people saying 50% of the gulf oil has disappeared ( by whose calculations? ) and the California courts preparing to decide if Proposition 8 ( voted in by a large majority ) should be overturned. So today we see what today’s liberals feel should be priority in our world – Covering up the largest environmental tragedy of our time that will effect ecosystems and seafood, workers and regions – for decades, and gay marriage. All this in a country that is in a tailspin.

    You decide. I think GM’s Nitz pretty much agrees with RB – and is stating, “Hey, get over it!”

    Balderdash!

    RECHARGE!

    James


  125. 125
    jeffhre

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:16 pm)

    Mike D: You could buy any brand of coffee at the store that you wanted

    You could buy any brand of coffee at the store at any manufacturer that you wanted…

    Go to Folgers headquarters and say you’d like to buy a cup of coffee, See what happens…If you get coffee and like it, call them from home, tell the receptionist, you’re the guy that bought the coffee and you’d like another cup. Let corvetteguy know how long it takes them to get back to you.

    I’m not trying to justify dealers with this, but individual consumers have never had influence over multi-national corporations. Go to court, stage a protest, call a government agency – perhaps. But telling a giant corporation how you will have your coffee this morning, pointless.


  126. 126
    Mitch

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mitch
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:17 pm)

    EvcosiFree: Yet another reason to buy a Tesla Model S. 100% EV & corruption free!  (Quote)

    we talking about th ecompany that has yet to make any money right? and you suggest buying a non existant car (slated for 2012 btw) that will be starting at 58,000 (17,000 more than the Volt) with a 160 mile range (yes you can upgrade to range with a bigger battery, but the price jumps significantly, and you still need a full 12+ hours at 240 v to recharge…)

    remember its the dealer that is gouging here …not GM.. GM cannot tell a dealer how to do business, they can make it tough to get stock until they fall in line but they cannot dictate.. Dealer is the issue here, not the manufacturer…


  127. 127
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:18 pm)

    That Honda dealer was selling me a generator, not an auto…LOL…sorry for the confusion.

    RECHARGE!

    James


  128. 128
    LGA

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LGA
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:18 pm)

    I went in to place my preliminary order yesterday and was told that the price will be MSRP. My dealer is getting 6 units in the first year, and believes the first units will be delivered in December. I made a $2500 “refundable” deposit last month to get on their waiting list at #3.


  129. 129
    Loboc

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:25 pm)

    Mike D: Do you understand how i would like the choice of not paying for the property of a middleman who in NO WAY helped me?

    I totally disagree with this rant.

    In real estate and in car purchases, you need a professional to help with:

    Financing
    Trade-in
    Title and Licensing
    Warranty
    Training
    Selection
    Service
    and generally walking you through the process.

    Buying a car is not a trivial thing like buying a cup of coffee or a pen. Unless you are ‘in the business’, you have no idea how to get a good deal and no idea what traps are out there for the ignorant/naive. (Reading helpful hints on the Internet doesn’t make you an expert, btw.)

    The last car I bought was a used Dodge. The dealer went out of their way to help me with financing, trade-in and getting-it-done. I was in and out in a couple hours and had a better deal than I was thinking of before I arrived. I did better than kbb averages on both the new car ($2100 below plus a full tank of gas) and my trade-in ($200 above and tank was empty). I was introduced to the GM and to the Service Manager.

    Their Chevrolet arm will probably get the order for my Volt SS.

    And that deal was only $10k financed. There is no way on this green earth that I would buy a $41k item on eBay sight unseen.

    Yeah, there are good professionals and schlocks out there. Shop around until you find a good one.


  130. 130
    Dan

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dan
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:29 pm)

    I am tired of all you folks complaining about not being able to buy a Volt. I live in a non-Volt state and I was able to order one fine from one of the limited market states after a few phone calls. I believe that that you never intended to buy a 1st generation Volt and are using the price and availability as an excuse not to buy it. Stop complaining, or get on the phone, put down a $1000 deposit, and lease a brand new Volt for $350 a month.


  131. 131
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:32 pm)

    LGA: I went in to place my preliminary order yesterday and was told that the price will be MSRP. My dealer is getting 6 units in the first year, and believes the first units will be delivered in December. I made a $2500 “refundable” deposit last month to get on their waiting list at #3.  (Quote)

    Hi LGA,

    Will you promise to let us know how that all turns out? I’m hoping we hear how all the folks who have placed a “refundable deposit” are treated once the actual Volt is sitting there on the showroom floor. I’m anxious to hear the true stories of these experiences as the reality of supply and demand hits the dealer’s lot.

    My prediction: It aint gonna be pretty.

    GM-Volt.com would be the perfect place for “Gouge Watch – the Chevrolet Dealer Gouge List”.

    It would be informative and eye-opening the stories of just how hard salespeople will turn the vice on people with pre-orders to buy that “Eco” model of the Cruze ( “hey 40 mpg at $26,000 sure beats waiting for two years for a Volt, if they make ‘em that long!”…etc etc ). Remember, they’ll already have your check sitting there – wow, Corvetteguy, what an incentive to squeeze ‘em to buy that Cruze!

    RECHARGE!

    James

    “We The People…”


  132. 132
    Kent

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kent
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:33 pm)

    Does anyone know what the “invoice” cost of the Volt is? I don’t think this is available on carsdirect.com or edmunds.com yet.


  133. 133
    neutron

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    neutron
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:35 pm)

    RB: .We didn’t extend much sympathy to dealers when they had to mark down inventory during the economic downturn, and the other side is not to criticize too much on those rare occasions when dealers have a hot product that can be marked up.
    So it seems to me too harsh to say that marking up the price is “gouging” in the sense of marking up the price of bottled water after a hurricane.A new Volt is nice but not something that is a life necessity.If the price is too high, the buyer is free to walk away.  

    I do not do business that way. My dollars are valuable to me. If a price has been advertised and I am getting hit with an extra fee that gives no value added that is gouging. If an extra fee may be their way to operate then how do I know any other services I would buy like car maintenance are not on the same concept.. Not a lot of trust. I will find another dealer.


  134. 134
    Bill C

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Bill C
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:40 pm)

    Dear GM,

    I will take my name off your waiting list if I have to pay more than MSRP.

    Get your distribution franchise in order & under control.

    I waited 12 months for my 2005 Prius and paid nothing over MSRP. Looks like Toyota will get my $’s in the future.

    Bill


  135. 135
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:41 pm)

    Corvetteguy -

    Can you please email me with the name of the person who strolls into your dealership and lays down $60,000 for that “Limited Edition” Suburban LTZ?

    Seriously man, I am dead serious. I want to use him/her as an example of every single thing that is wrong with America right now.

    RECHARGE!

    James


  136. 136
    CorvetteGuy

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:43 pm)

    Loboc: Buying a car is not a trivial thing like buying a cup of coffee or a pen. Unless you are ‘in the business’, you have no idea how to get a good deal and no idea what traps are out there for the ignorant/naive. (Reading helpful hints on the Internet doesn’t make you an expert, btw.)
    The last car I bought was a used Dodge. The dealer went out of their way to help me with financing, trade-in and getting-it-done. I was in and out in a couple hours and had a better deal than I was thinking of before I arrived. I did better than kbb averages on both the new car ($2100 below plus a full tank of gas) and my trade-in ($200 above and tank was empty). I was introduced to the GM and to the Service Manager.
    Their Chevrolet arm will probably get the order for my Volt SS.

    On occasion, customers do appreciate what we do.

    Last week, I sold a Silverado truck to a customer. All by phone and online through my Internet Dept… Customer came in on Saturday to take delivery but was in a BIG hurry. Had to get to his kids little league game. Our Finance Manager told me to have the customer wait. He had to go over the documents again with him. It was a busy day and the customer was about to cancel the deal and walk out. Kid’s game was more important.

    They finally got into his office after he finished with the previous customer. My Finance Manager told them he got a better interest rate for them approved, but he needed another 10 minutes to reprint docs and have them sign all over again. Saved them over $2,000 bucks.

    Suddenly, that ball game was not that important.

    But, yeah. I can see how some people think we just don’t do ANYTHING.


  137. 137
    Mitch

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mitch
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:44 pm)

    jeff j: I think I’m going to go out and lease a GM volt the next day I’m going to put that volt on eBay for a $20,000 profit ,if and when I sell that vehicle I’m going to go out and buy two more I’m going to be a millionaire and be laughing all the way to the bank. Stop crying stopped whining and just become a capitalist and make money. With all this money I’m going to make on the GM volt I’m buying a little slice of heaven in the Caribbean and spend the rest of my day’s spearfishing and drinking cold beer on my deck overlooking the blue ocean. And I will owe it all the GM and the Volt.  (Quote)

    So let me get this straight..you’re going to becoem a “price gouging asshole” like so many are complaining about, but that is ok, because now you make the cash, and not a dealership that has employees, buildings, inventory, supplies, parts and tools and supports the community…

    and how are you going to sell a “leased” car? here in Canada, they investigate the ownership, and you cannot sell a “leased” vehicle.

    nice…


  138. 138
    CorvetteGuy

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:49 pm)

    James: Corvetteguy -Can you please email me with the name of the person who strolls into your dealership and lays down $60,000 for that “Limited Edition” Suburban LTZ?Seriously man, I am dead serious. I want to use him/her as an example of every single thing that is wrong with America right now.RECHARGE!James  (Quote)

    Now, now. Be nice. Somewhere in this big ‘ol world is someone who has waited 75 years for the ‘ultimate’ Suburban toy hauler. If they can afford it then they deserve it.

    When my 6 numbers come up, I plan to blow $250,000 on that new Mercedes Gull-Wing. Nuttin’ wrong with that!


  139. 139
    Truman

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Truman
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:50 pm)

    Though many enthusiasts are annoyed about this, it benefits GM to have a product so hot and so desired that they could sell out the first year production even with this added premium.

    That remains to be seen.


  140. 140
    sparks

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    sparks
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:54 pm)

    Just got an email from Courtesy Chevrolet, San Jose, CA, (where I’m wait-listed) stating I can preorder a Volt now, but there will be a $7500 dealer “premium.” So I did the “courtesy” of replying, “Sorry, at that level of markup count me out.” I indicated that I could accept maybe a $1K markup, but no more.

    They didn’t mention leasing, but no doubt there would be a premium there too. So I’ll just keep driving my GTO for the foreseeable future. Oh well, maybe someday…..


  141. 141
    CorvetteGuy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:57 pm)

    James: It would be informative and eye-opening the stories of just how hard salespeople will turn the vice on people with pre-orders to buy that “Eco” model of the Cruze ( “hey 40 mpg at $26,000 sure beats waiting for two years for a Volt, if they make ‘em that long!”…etc etc ). Remember, they’ll already have your check sitting there – wow, Corvetteguy, what an incentive to squeeze ‘em to buy that Cruze!

    Surprisingly, I have heard less about when we get Cruzes in than the VOLT. I know we have a bunch on order but I personally have only had 1 customer inquiry about them.

    Attention GM Marketing: When do the CRUZE commercials start?!


  142. 142
    William

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    William
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:58 pm)

    James: I nearly completely agree with William in post #62 – the only place where we’d part ways is that William asserts the Impala is an excellent vehicle ( LOL ) – when the Impala has been compared to any and all of it’s competitors it has finished dead last. the Chevrolet Impala is most noted for being the epitome of what we think when we think “rental car”.

    Well, I guess I also said what I said about the Impala because I happen to have one and I easily manage in the low 30s MPG on the highway (great for a larger sedan!). But yes, the Impala has fallen back quite a bit recently, especially since THEY TOOK THE IMPALA LOGOS OFF THE REAR SAIL PANELS FOR THE 2010 MODEL YEAR, which was COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY!!!! Whoever was responsible for that decision needs to be fired! But, thankfully, I’ve got a 2008 model which has the gorgeous Impala logos! :) )))

    Anyway, now that that’s out of me, I’ll get back on topic:

    James: Toyota has sold much more than 2 million Prius. Those 2.4 million cars have….yes they have….made a dent in crude oil consumption and environmental footprint. Two things GM couldn’t give a bloody flippin’ hoot about.

    James, I agree with pretty much everything you said. You are absolutely right here; the Prius has been a hot seller, because Toyota ramped up production and offered a fair price from the beginning!

    GM thinks they’ll make more money by selling the Volt in limited quantities, de-contenting vehicles, raising prices (less car for more money) and still relying on SUV sales. They couldn’t be more wrong!

    I personally don’t believe in global warming, but I am concerned about reducing our dependence on foreign oil. We’ve got to stop sending those billions of dollars a year overseas! The Volt has the capability to change all of that, yet GM doesn’t care! They’re only going to “build what they have to build” to make the government happy.

    GM has the potential to reap such a profit from the Volt, if they would make the car AFFORDABLE to begin with and follow the economic principle of economies of scale.

    I read a quote in the USA Today by a Ford executive who said:

    “Barb Samardzich, Ford’s vice president of global powertrain engineering, questioned the price. “Our perspective is we want to be able to provide a solution that works for all of our customers, and at $40,000 or $41,000, you are taking a lot of customers out of that equation,” Samardzich said.”

    Source: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/08/is-chevrolet-volt-overpriced-vs-lexus-cadillac-bmw-/1

    Samardzich is spot on here. These cars have got to be affordable for the average American family and not only those who make six-figure salaries. Plus, I know people who do make six figure salaries who think that the Volt price is outrageous.

    GM’s pricing of the Volt at $41,000 sparks an “elitist” tone and it gives the impression that the Volt is only for wealthy people who want to “show-off their greenness.”

    I’m telling you, that price is turning a lot of people off and showing people that GM has not learned the lessons from what drove them into bankruptcy.


  143. 143
    Kent

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kent
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (1:58 pm)

    sparks: Just got an email from Courtesy Chevrolet, San Jose, CA, (where I’m wait-listed) stating I can preorder a Volt now, but there will be a $7500 dealer “premium.”So I did the “courtesy” of replying, “Sorry, at that level of markup count me out.”I indicated that I could accept maybe a $1K markup, but no more.They didn’t mention leasing, but no doubt there would be a premium there too.So I’ll just keep driving my GTO for the foreseeable future.Oh well, maybe someday…..  

    Yep….Courtesy Chevrolet is one of the dealers I spoke with also. Told them the same thing you did.

    I ended up going to Putnam Chevrolet in Burlingame (they serviced my Hummer and was very good). Talk to Ed at Internet Sales. He’ll sell at MSRP but you have to get the leather option for $1,395. I’m number 6 on his allocation of 16. Maybe you have time to get in on this.


  144. 144
    America1st

    -2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    America1st
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:01 pm)

    The dealer didn’t get anyone willing to pay the premium. As for me, I’d buy the Tesla S for that amount. Much nicer, all electric. Gorgeous car.


  145. 145
    Kent

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kent
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    “GM has the potential to reap such a profit from the Volt, if they would make the car AFFORDABLE to begin with and follow the economic principle of economies of scale.I read a quote in the USA Today by a Ford executive who said:“Barb Samardzich, Ford’s vice president of global powertrain engineering, questioned the price. “Our perspective is we want to be able to provide a solution that works for all of our customers, and at $40,000 or $41,000, you are taking a lot of customers out of that equation,” Samardzich said.”Source: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/08/is-chevrolet-volt-overpriced-vs-lexus-cadillac-bmw-/1
    Samardzich is spot on here.These cars have got to be affordable for the average American family and not only those who make six-figure salaries.Plus, I know people who do make six figure salaries who think that the Volt price is outrageous.GM’s pricing of the Volt at $41,000 sparks an “elitist” tone and it gives the impression that the Volt is only for wealthy people who want to “show-off their greenness.”
    I’m telling you, that price is turning a lot of people off and showing people that GM has not learned the lessons from what drove them into bankruptcy.  ”"

    Please keep in mind that, as with all tax credits, if and when the $7,500 credit expires, the price of the Volt will drop. GM is only pricing it at $41K because they know the customer will get $7,500 back from Uncle Sam.

    Remember when there used to be tax credits for the Prius? As soon as those expires, the price of the Prius went down as well.


  146. 146
    jeffhre

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:07 pm)

    James: That Honda dealer was selling me a generator, not an auto…LOL…sorry for the confusion.
    RECHARGE!
    James 

    What was YOUR priority? 1200 bucks, or cold shivering children? If you wanted the dealer to decide your neighbors children are more deserving than yours. Or your neighbor without children would be more deserving than you, so that neighbor gets the whole inventory at list price, to sell for thousands in profits, you should be very angry.

    Like me, your priority is to make sure our families are OK. So by the time we leave to get portable generators, there probably would be none left, if the price hadn’t gone up.

    In a capitalist democracy we don’t ration items in short supply by government fiat, price usually, is what does that. The market sets the price regardless of our complaints.


  147. 147
    William

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    William
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:08 pm)

    Kent: Please keep in mind that, as with all tax credits, if and when the $7,500 credit expires, the price of the Volt will drop. GM is only pricing it at $41K because they know the customer will get $7,500 back from Uncle Sam.

    Which is why the tax credits and other government intervention in things like this (“Cash for Clunkers” being another one) is a very bad idea. The Volt’s price has been unnecessarily inflated.


  148. 148
    Kent

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kent
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:13 pm)

    William:
    Which is why the tax credits and other government intervention in things like this (“Cash for Clunkers” being another one) is a very bad idea.The Volt’s price has been unnecessarily inflated.  

    I agree with you there. I’m just “going with the program”, so to speak. As far as I’m concerned, the Volt is $33,500, not $41,000, since that’s what I’m paying (which is also how I convinced my wife).


  149. 149
    srschrier

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    srschrier
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:19 pm)

    A salesperson with DeNooyer Chevrolet in west Michigan (Kalamazoo) said six (6) folks have placed a $500. deposit for a Volt. The dealership expects to receive only 2 Volts this year, the showroom customer test drive Volt and one (1) Volt for sale. The dealership will sell the Volt at MSRP with no markups. This is the same approach the dealership’s apparently taken with other new Chevrolet introductions over many decades. The salesperson did not have any information about the Volt’s gas tank size or CSM MPG performance.

    The new Chevy Cruze may be in their showrooms by late September, with one version reportedly getting over 40 mpg. Two Cruzes for the price of one Volt?


  150. 150
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:19 pm)

    : jeff j: I think I’m going to go out and lease a GM volt the next day I’m going to put that volt on eBay for a $20,000 profit ,if and when I sell that vehicle I’m going to go out and buy two more I’m going to be a millionaire and be laughing all the way to the bank. Stop crying stopped whining and just become a capitalist and make money. With all this money I’m going to make on the GM volt I’m buying a little slice of heaven in the Caribbean and spend the rest of my day’s spearfishing and drinking cold beer on my deck overlooking the blue ocean. And I will owe it all the GM and the Volt.  (Quote)

    Mitch:
    So let me get this straight..you’re going to becoem a “price gouging asshole” like so many are complaining about, but that is ok, because now you make the cash, and not a dealership that has employees, buildings, inventory, supplies, parts and tools and supports the community…
    and how are you going to sell a “leased” car? here in Canada, they investigate the ownership, and you cannot sell a “leased” vehicle.
    nice…

    It only works if someone (one of us consumers?) agrees to the insane price increase. Must have thought is was worth it if they signed up for it though, unless he held them at gunpoint or something. And who checks for proper title when they buy a car? Who ascertains the car can be registered before buying it?


  151. 151
    sparks

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    sparks
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:27 pm)

    Kent, thanks for the tip. But before I call Putnam, I need to talk to PG&E (electric co.). They require that we go to an E9 rate structure for any sort of plug-in car (I guess they get a tip-off from GM about these purchases??). I have solar panels on my home and going from the current E7 rate structure to E9 would negate any savings from the Volt (versus gasoline).

    THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE FOR RESIDENTIAL SOLAR POWER GENERATORS. Ironically, this has the potential to alienate the so-called “green” crowd here in CA. I have sent several emails to PG&E over the past week and each office refers me to another office.

    BIG BROTHER is becoming a major PIA. By the time I get this sorted out with PG&E, I fear the Volts will be gone. But hoping for the best….

    Kent:
    Yep….Courtesy Chevrolet is one of the dealers I spoke with also.Told them the same thing you did.I ended up going to Putnam Chevrolet in Burlingame (they serviced my Hummer and was very good).Talk to Ed at Internet Sales.He’ll sell at MSRP but you have to get the leather option for $1,395.I’m number 6 on his allocation of 16.Maybe you have time to get in on this.  


  152. 152
    John Desmond

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    John Desmond
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:38 pm)

    I suspect that the very high list price for this car has limited sales to early adopters who will buy it at any price, so I doubt that dealer markups will be of much consequence.


  153. 153
    Mike D

    +3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike D
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:44 pm)

    Corvetteguy

    I enjoyed your response, i’d switch to seattle’s best but im actually not a caffiene (sp?) drinker! Ok, so i understand your point, and i have to differentiate disliking car dealers from disliking any middle man.

    I go to the grocery store and pay a mark-up price for everything i buy, and all the store does is unpack and shelve the items. I’m not about to order only my cereal through general mills directly, my OJ through tropicana, my bagles from thomas’. If it was possible, it would still be annoying due to having to order the sum of all my groceries from a bunch of different manufacturers.

    Cars, the way it USED to work, was the manufacturer wouldn’t build a single car unless they had an order for it. It would be great if they chose to do that these days. Instead they jusy build a ton and you either have what’s in stock or you settle with extras you don’t want to pay for. IF it still worked like that today, especially with the internet so widely used, you can’t deny that the number of dealerships would go down, because so many people see no use for them, and get no use out of them, and just see them as a nuisance.

    A person knows they want car X, in color X, with X options. Thousands of people would simply like to go to the GM website, build and price a car with the options and colors they want, and click “order” and have it built and delievered to their home, rather than going to a dealership, having to fight to not get options you don’t want, and having to fight to get them not to want thousands of dollars more just because they washed it and parked it and filled out paperwork for you.

    The grocery store marks things up because they put lots of products from completly different manufacturers on shelves for you. Best buy charges more for new tech because it costs THEM more, they still have the same profit margin as with their lower priced tv’s.

    A car dealership charges thousands more because……everybody wants one? Do you see how that isn’t a good enough reason for many people? To each their own, but lots and lots of people would just rather have that “order” button and the end of the “build and price” webpage.

    GM dealerships will sell their volts at whatever premium they charge, but lots of people like me won’t fork over extra money for something that’s just “a hot item!”. Doesn’t matter to me if they discounted their cars a few years ago, i’m not paying them on the high end now to make up for it, which is logic that you kind of suggested was ok. I don’t owe them anything for the recession. I didn’t buy a discounted car during that time.

    Even if they’ve been following it since the concept and have always planned on owning one. Lots of us will just wait until the dealers stop over-charging. I’m not saying it’s my “right” to pay the price i want to pay for a new car. I’m saying i will laugh out loud to someone who things i’m going to pay a premium for something for NO OTHER REASON than “it’s hot and new!”.

    My view to the dealerships is like HAHA don’t insult me with thinking i would even consider taking that early adopter price premium bait. Your own fault for thinking you could get easy money out of me.

    Cheers!


  154. 154
    JohnK

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JohnK
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:51 pm)

    Mitch: and you suggest buying a non existant car (slated for 2012 btw) that will be starting at 58,000 (17,000 more than the Volt) with a 160 mile range (yes you can upgrade to range with a bigger battery, but the price jumps significantly, and you still need a full 12+ hours at 240 v to recharge…)

    When I lingered in the Tesla area at the Detroit auto show (Jan) the Tesla rep stated that the full first year of Model S cars would be priced at $80K because they would all be configured as “Limited Editions” with special options and special paint (the red model on display was VERY special paint). And people are complaining about $41K?


  155. 155
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Now, now. Be nice. Somewhere in this big ‘ol world is someone who has waited 75 years for the ‘ultimate’ Suburban toy hauler. If they can afford it then they deserve it.
    When my 6 numbers come up, I plan to blow $250,000 on that new Mercedes Gull-Wing. Nuttin’ wrong with that! 

    I saw an original 300 SL Gull-wing glide by on the 405 freeway, coming in off of the Marina Freeway merge. Light traffic that day, but for a moment, I couldn’t believe that someone would be putting a priceless object like that at risk in LA traffic!

    For some people, a couple thousand over list price is probably no big deal. Seeing that classic car high up on the Marina Freeway flyover, then diving into LA freeway traffic, let’s me know that’s more than just something that people commonly say. For some a few thousand more dollars for the latest and greatest, will mean nothing.


  156. 156
    Andrew

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Andrew
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    Koons Chevrolet of Tysons Corner, VA said there would be at least an $8000 markup


  157. 157
    Jimza Skeptic

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:55 pm)

    Kent: “GM has the potential to reap such a profit from the Volt, if they would make the car AFFORDABLE to begin with and follow the economic principle of economies of scale.I read a quote in the USA Today by a Ford executive who said:“Barb Samardzich, Ford’s vice president of global powertrain engineering, questioned the price. “Our perspective is we want to be able to provide a solution that works for all of our customers, and at $40,000 or $41,000, you are taking a lot of customers out of that equation,” Samardzich said.”Source: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/08/is-chevrolet-volt-overpriced-vs-lexus-cadillac-bmw-/1
    Samardzich is spot on here.These cars have got to be affordable for the average American family and not only those who make six-figure salaries.Plus, I know people who do make six figure salaries who think that the Volt price is outrageous.GM’s pricing of the Volt at $41,000 sparks an “elitist” tone and it gives the impression that the Volt is only for wealthy people who want to “show-off their greenness.”
    I’m telling you, that price is turning a lot of people off and showing people that GM has not learned the lessons from what drove them into bankruptcy.  ””Please keep in mind that, as with all tax credits, if and when the $7,500 credit expires, the price of the Volt will drop.GM is only pricing it at $41K because they know the customer will get $7,500 back from Uncle Sam.Remember when there used to be tax credits for the Prius? As soon as those expires, the price of the Prius went down as well.  

    As soon as Ford puts an EREV on the market, at lower cost and better performance, they can talk all the smack they want. As Chevy used to say; Lead, Follow or Get out of the way…. So far Ford is all smoke and no fire, so get out of the way. ;-)


  158. 158
    Rashiid Amul

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Rashiid Amul
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (2:56 pm)

    sparks: Kent, thanks for the tip.But before I call Putnam, I need to talk to PG&E (electric co.).They require that we go to an E9 rate structure for any sort of plug-in car (I guess they get a tip-off from GM about these purchases??).I have solar panels on my home and going from the current E7 rate structure to E9 would negate any savings from the Volt (versus gasoline).THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE FOR RESIDENTIAL SOLAR POWER GENERATORS.Ironically, this has the potential to alienate the so-called “green” crowd here in CA.I have sent several emails to PG&E over the past week and each office refers me to another office.BIG BROTHER is becoming a major PIA.By the time I get this sorted out with PG&E, I fear the Volts will be gone.But hoping for the best….
      

    You have got to be kidding. What is it with companies?
    Is no one interested in getting us off of oil?


  159. 159
    steve

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    steve
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (3:04 pm)

    John: So for once a dealership makes money instead of the customers that lie, they say their car is perfect only to find on carfax it’s been hit and in a wreck. Then they want a new car for invoice and retail for their trade in.Would you sell you house for wholesale…doubt it.Stop bitching  (Quote)

    MSRP is already above wholesale price. The trade in issue cuts both ways.


  160. 160
    James

    -5

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (3:07 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Now, now. Be nice. Somewhere in this big ‘ol world is someone who has waited 75 years for the ‘ultimate’ Suburban toy hauler. If they can afford it then they deserve it.When my 6 numbers come up, I plan to blow $250,000 on that new Mercedes Gull-Wing. Nuttin’ wrong with that!  (Quote)

    Just know that I’m not gettin’ on your case. I used to sell cars – I never would have sold Chevys or Fords, or any company that sells an Armada-sized rig to soccer moms ( they call it Armada for a reason, it weighs as much as an Armada of aircraft carriers ).

    A car salesperson will sell anything they can, it’s a commish – and a $60,000 sale is a large one, generally. It’s a living. It’s a hard living nowdays – has been for years. In my area nearly all the salespeople are greenhorns fresh out of high school or Russian immigrants who don’t know how rough it is to sell new cars in the USA and make a buck. When I sold new cars back in the day, my sales manager used to drill into us the saying, “buyers are liars”. There was definately an us-vs.-them mentality on the showroom. It was us vs. the other salesguy vying and fighting over customers, and us vs. the other dealer in the next town willing to cut the price $100 just to take your sale. It’s dog-eat-dog out there. It’s why I don’t sell cars today. One lady came in and bought a full-pop, all optioned Volvo wagon from me for MSRP – I could have gotten second sticker, but for the fact I am honest. She told me her last car was bought in Europe where they set a price and you pay it, simple as that – not unlike buying an appliance here in the USA. I don’t think Saturn failed for it’s marketing model. I feel Saturn failed because it sold vehicles that just weren’t up to their competitor’s offerings.

    Your justifications for the $60,000 LTZ Suburban sound —- well, like your typical car salesman. It’s easy to justify such nonsense when it’s OPM – other people’s money. Any number of vehicles are out there as “the ultimate hauler”, but most are heavy-duty trucks with dualies towing everything from Cigarrette performance boats to race car trailers. Those vehicles, many times with a diesel and dualie tires, aren’t daily drivers used to pick up the groceries – Suburbans are. A Suburban has to be the most idiotic vehicle purchase known to mankind. Name me any justification and I can give you an option that makes tons more sense. Are you a Catholic or Mormon and have 12 kids? Get a Daimler Sprinter van. It’s diesel, gets over 25 mpg and will last eons longer since it’s designed as a commercial vehicle and the resale is alot higher. Are you the coach of a church or charity soccer league and have to pick up loads of people like a driver for a senior community? Get a van. Even GMs vans get higher mileage than Suburban and have more utility and capacity.

    GM thought up the Suburban idea to get more traction from it’s C/K large pickup frames and drivetrains. Hey, just tack on a couple thousand pounds of sheetmetal and doors and “bingo!” you have one more option for dealer’s to market to suckers. The Suburban of old was smaller than a van and had the efficiency and capability to match it’s probable use. Today you see Suburbans galore down at the supermarket hauling fifty pounds of groceries and one 120lb. woman! When I sold my sister’s second Suburban, I drove the thing for weeks consequently noticing all others on the road. 90% had one occupant with no visible heavy load inside. My sister’s big excuse for buying three Suburbans? – “I feel safe!”. Good for her, as she plugs along at 7 mpg. running her errands – the other motorists don’t!

    People who buy Suburbans have that “America is badass and we get cheap oil dammit!” sensibility. Just like the monster truck dude who pulls up to you in your Prius and smirks. I laughed at posters re: vanity plates for Volt, the other day. Some said, “having a vanity plate on your Volt is trying to look down on others”. Ha! What is the message people send driving SRT8 Rams and Suburbans to work?! My take is – their message is something like ” ____ck you!”.

    You win the lotto and buy a garage queen. Great for you. Pistons and sparkplugs will be with us for decades to come, and who can fault a guy who buys an SLS AMG Mercedes Gullwing or anything classic for investment and fun? Are you gonna drive it as your daily driver? Not on your life. Will it go to car shows and sunny Sunday drives? You bet – nothing horrible about that, if you can afford it.On the other hand, a 7200+ pound, 12-16 mpg ( combined – Edmunds.com ) behemoth has no reason to exist today. I can’t see anybody calling it “a dream hauler”, LOL. What’s really funny is Chevrolet’s ad campaign saying 21mpg ( 2wd 1500 Suburban ) beats Expedition, Armada and Sequoia. Wow, one company’s seven ton wonderbeast beats the others! You know nobody gets EPA figures. Ever see how people drive?! They punch it on hills and starts and drive like they think they’re Jeff Gordon!

    That 7 mpg. LTZ Suburban for $60,000 is just absurd. The SLS AMG Gullwing? Hey, If I won the lotto I might even buy an original 300SL Gullwing ( my all-time fave ride ). But comparing the two vehicles as you did is not legit. People drive GM landyachts as their daily drivers.

    RECHARGE!

    James


  161. 161
    sparks

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    sparks
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (3:21 pm)

    Yes, this is insane, and entirely counterproductive.

    UPDATE: I just got off the phone with PG&E. The representative, who asked I not use his name because nothing has been finalized, claimed that PG&E is making changes to the E9 (plug-in car) rates right now, to make it more customer-friendly, and specifically more friendly to residential solar producers! He said this should be done early next year.

    In the meantime, he said, “don’t quote me, but even though E9 is ‘mandatory’ for plug-in EV folks, the dealers are not reporting who buys an EV, and so there’s no way we are going to know you have an EV.” That’s a direct quote….

    I think I can call Putnam now!

    Rashiid Amul:
    You have got to be kidding.What is it with companies?
    Is no one interested in getting us off of oil?  


  162. 162
    Loboc

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (3:37 pm)

    Streetlight: sporting a 2011 VOLT ups your buddies plain old ordinary 2010 ZR1

    I seriously doubt that Corvette owners are worried about a sedan’s street cred. Electric or not.


  163. 163
    CorvetteGuy

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CorvetteGuy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (3:52 pm)

    James: Your justifications for the $60,000 LTZ Suburban sound —- well, like your typical car salesman. It’s easy to justify such nonsense when it’s OPM – other people’s money. Any number of vehicles are out there as “the ultimate hauler”, but most are heavy-duty trucks with dualies towing everything from Cigarrette performance boats to race car trailers.

    Now if I did hit the lotto, I would get the Suburban AND the Cigarette boat. The difference between me and some bloggers here is: Just because I can’t afford a certain car or I think a bigazz SUV is not right for me or not politically correct, I don’t pound my drum and say ‘nobody should ever own a ______ like that’….

    I’ll probably never own a Gullwing Mercedes, but I don’t rain on the parade for those that do.


  164. 164
    Loboc

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (3:56 pm)

    James: Those vehicles, many times with a diesel and dualie tires, aren’t daily drivers used to pick up the groceries – Suburbans are. A Suburban has to be the most idiotic vehicle purchase known to mankind.

    Complete nonsense. There are some 3/4 ton diesel pickups parked in the lot right now. Driven daily to work. Lift kits and 4′ tall tires and winches and everything.

    Believe it or not, there are a lot of people that don’t know about conservation or environmental concerns. And don’t care one bit.

    So it’s GM’s fault that these vehicles are popular and sell better than hybrids with a higher profit? Not.

    /full disclosure. I drive a Dodge Magnum R/T HEMI to work every day. It gets 30% better gas mileage than my last vehicle. But, that’s not why I drive it.


  165. 165
    Kent

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kent
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (4:03 pm)

    sparks: Yes, this is insane, and entirely counterproductive.UPDATE:I just got off the phone with PG&E.The representative, who asked I not use his name because nothing has been finalized, claimed that PG&E is making changes to the E9 (plug-in car) rates right now, to make it more customer-friendly, and specifically more friendly to residential solar producers!He said this should be done early next year.In the meantime, he said, “don’t quote me, but even though E9 is ‘mandatory’ for plug-in EV folks, the dealers are not reporting who buys an EV, and so there’s no way we are going to know you have an EV.”That’s a direct quote….I think I can call Putnam now!
      

    Thanks for the update! I didn’t know PG&E had any involvement with this at all. I also have solar panels and I’m on the “time-of-use” rate schedule. What is the E7 and E9 you were referring to?


  166. 166
    crew

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    crew
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (4:14 pm)

    Loboc:
    I seriously doubt that Corvette owners are worried about a sedan’s street cred. Electric or not.

    Ditto.

    Now if the Converj was next to the Z06 in the garage (nothing beats the ZR1, fool!) keeping the miles low on the ‘vette would not be a problem.

    Now, about that LTZ Suburban. I sold one (yes, i was a chevy salesman at one time and a good, honest one at that!) to a GM client millionaire to replace his 10 year old faithful one. It’s the family wagon for 4 teenage kids and all the toys. Nothing beats it for utility and economy (7 mpg is the Nissan or Ford, not the Chevy).

    It’s a different society and I’m glad that this client stuck with Chevy rather than showing off the money on a status symbol MB, Audi, Porsche, or Infinity. In a way the Chevy showed more class than we realize.

    If you’re stuck on the oil thing regarding the Suburban, well, I am too when I see one driver and nobody else in the beast. Talking on the cell (not using the bluetooth) and behaving with obvious obliviousness towards anyone else on the road.
    SUVs like these have evolved beyond their utility for too many owners. But for those who have them for the need, there’s nothing better.

    Not too long ago I read two reviews on large SUV’s. The Escalade hybrid was panned for only averaging 17 mpg but the Ford Expedition was praised while returning only 10 mpg. Both in real world driving results, not EPA figures, and from the same test driving crew.
    Go figure.


  167. 167
    Steve

    -2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Steve
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (4:14 pm)

    LEAF HERE I COME!!!!!!!!


  168. 168
    sparks

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    sparks
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (4:40 pm)

    You will find the current (and past) rate PG&E electricity rate schedules at:
    http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC.
    Scroll down past about one page of “Residential” rates (going all the way back to 1996) and you’ll get to the “Residential Time-Of-Use” section. Click on the current rates (the top link in this section) and you’ll get an Excel spread sheet that shows E7 (open to solar generation residences only) as well as E6 and two candidate E9 rate schedules. These are all time-of-use schedules, but of these E7 is most advantageous for solar, and it’s what I have currently.

    You may have E7 if you installed your solar about 4 or more years ago. They closed E7 a few years ago, but I got in just before that.

    Kent:
    Thanks for the update!I didn’t know PG&E had any involvement with this at all.I also have solar panels and I’m on the “time-of-use” rate schedule.What is the E7 and E9 you were referring to?  


  169. 169
    Charles Stump

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Charles Stump
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (4:49 pm)

    Rush Limbaugh spent most of an entire hour of his broadcast during the last week of July condeming the very high price of the new Chevy Volt which he stated would be $41,000, which he felt was beyond the means of the average car buyer. Limbaugh also indicated you could buy a model of Mercedes for that same price or several other luxury cars.
    I agree with Limbaugh. I thought the idea of the Volt was to make a good electric car accessible to the average American car buyer. Forty one thousand is well beyond the average price of a brand new car, average now being $22,000 over all.
    The forty one thousand makes the Toyota Prius look like a real bargain on the new car market. Admittedly, I was discouraged to see this luxury car pricing announced for the Chevy Volt. We certainly can’t afford that as average income American senior citizens.


  170. 170
    baltimore17

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    baltimore17
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (4:54 pm)

    Fabian: There are simply too many things missing from this car to accept it’s price tag, the Prius blows this away if you drive over 60 miles per day to/from work. I drive 80, and the number don’t add up because my work place will not have rechargers.The Prius wins for many reasons, just look at the options list available.I wanted to love the Volt, but it’s too little car for the money, plain and simple.  (Quote)

    At your 80 miles, your average gas milage in the Volt between recharge should be somewhere between 60 and 100 MPG, depending on what the CS mileage turns out to be. *Especially* on the highway, the Prius can’t touch that. And for those driving 60 miles, the Volt’s average gas mileage between recharge should be between 90 and 150 MPG. Very little blowing away by the Prius.


  171. 171
    Future EV Driver

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Future EV Driver
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (4:57 pm)

    Steve, check out Static’s site @ http://nissan-leaf.net/ for Leaf updates…

    GO EV!!!

    Steve: LEAF HERE I COME!!!!!!!!  (Quote)


  172. 172
    nuclearboy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    nuclearboy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:00 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Get real. Every product has a distribution system,

    Good points in your whole note. +1


  173. 173
    nuclearboy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    nuclearboy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:04 pm)

    Mike D: Cars, the way it USED to work, was the manufacturer wouldn’t build a single car unless they had an order for it. It would be great if they chose to do that these days. Instead they jusy build a ton and you either have what’s in stock or you settle with extras you don’t want to pay for.

    Many people want a car “this week” so the dealers stock cars. No big deal. The dealer orders what they think they can sell.

    For GM cars, I assume others are the same, you can still order cars. I have ordered my last 4 cars from the factory. GM provided me build dates and estimated delivery times for my last purchase. I got exactly what I wanted. You have to wait several to (10 weeks for my equinox) but ordering is easy and readily available at every dealer I have used.


  174. 174
    DonC

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:04 pm)

    Loboc: Yeah, there are good professionals and schlocks out there. Shop around until you find a good one. 

    I agree that there are many moving parts to an auto sale, and it’s a big sale. The problem is that you’re in a zero sum game, and, as you mention, it’s not a very fair game because the dealership does it every day while, if you’re typical, you do it every few years. So it’s better to think about getting a “fair” deal than a “great” deal.

    Also, just as a real estate agent is usually working for the seller, anyone working for the car dealer is, well, working for the car dealer not you. The best you can do is align the interests as well as possible.


  175. 175
    baltimore17

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    baltimore17
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:14 pm)

    Mike D:
    Cars, the way it USED to work, was the manufacturer wouldn’t build a single car unless they had an order for it. It would be great if they chose to do that these days. Instead they jusy build a ton and you either have what’s in stock or you settle with extras you don’t want to pay for. P>Cheers!  (Quote)

    I’ve never purchased a car off the lot. I’ve always ordered through the dealer, got exactly the options I wanted, never had unwanted options forced on me and, oh by the way, never, ever signed a purchase order without a steep discount. Delivery was always 12-16 weeks. Can’t imagine why you think you can’t order a car with exactly what you want — as long as you’re willing to sign a binding contract of sale with a significant deposit.

    One dealer discovered, six hours after I signed the contract, that he was only going to get two of the vehicle that year (1982 Recaro Trans Am). He called and told me he was going to increase the sales price by $500. I waved the sales contract at him, got some consumer protection help, and came down on him like the ton of bricks he deserved. No $500 increase.


  176. 176
    DonC

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:16 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: It’s a nice dream. Like “World Peace”. But it is too impractical to implement.  

    I actually think you are right — for the foreseeable future most cars will be sold through dealers. I’m just saying that should be a market decision not a political one. Right now car dealers have pushed through state laws that prevent or frustrate that.

    For example, take Apple products. Wherever you buy one — be it from Apple or Best Buy or MacMall online — you pay the same price. Why? Because Apple has a retail price maintenance program. Sell for more than the price set by Apple and you’re out. Sell for less and you’re out. This is a way that Apple has determined it can control and market their products most advantageously. On the other hand, lots of companies don’t have retail price maintenance — they just sell wholesale and the retailers set the prices. Whether cars should follow one model or another isn’t as important as whether Apple or a car manufacturer can have a retail price maintenance program. No reason why auto manufacturers should be prevented by state law from doing it if it works for their brand(s).

    This isn’t an entirely theoretical question. Dealers in Colorado are apparently trying to shut down a planned Tesla showroom for the Model S based on state law that prohibits automakers from selling directly to consumers.


  177. 177
    Jaime

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jaime
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:27 pm)

    Just another reason why people hate car dealers more than going to the dentist. If they tried to gouge me I would simply walk away. No car is worth even paying MSRP, let alone a premium on top of that. I can wait.


  178. 178
    Kent

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kent
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    sparks: You will find the current (and past) rate PG&E electricity rate schedules at:
    http://www.pge.com/tariffs/electric.shtml#RESELEC.
    Scroll down past about one page of “Residential” rates (going all the way back to 1996) and you’ll get to the “Residential Time-Of-Use” section.Click on the current rates (the top link in this section) and you’ll get an Excel spread sheet that shows E7 (open to solar generation residences only) as well as E6 and two candidate E9 rate schedules.These are all time-of-use schedules, but of these E7 is most advantageous for solar, and it’s what I have currently.You may have E7 if you installed your solar about 4 or more years ago.They closed E7 a few years ago, but I got in just before that.
      

    Thanks again for the update. I got my solar panels back in 2005, so I should be on the E7 rate.


  179. 179
    CCooper

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    CCooper
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:29 pm)

    If dealers are going to do this; it is bad bussiness. I would like to buy American but this would drice me away and I might never go back to that dealer or any GM dealer. I would consider other makes. If a dealer does this GM should not send them any cars and make them refund the money. I would like a Volt but not for over MSRP. This will make many people angry since the public money(taxes) has gone into the Volts development. GM can control the dealers if caught no more cars.


  180. 180
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:29 pm)

    jeffhre: What was YOUR priority? 1200 bucks, or cold shivering children? If you wanted the dealer to decide your neighbors children are more deserving than yours. Or your neighbor without children would be more deserving than you, so that neighbor gets the whole inventory at list price, to sell for thousands in profits, you should be very angry. Like me, your priority is to make sure our families are OK. So by the time we leave to get portable generators, there probably would be none left, if the price hadn’t gone up.In a capitalist democracy we don’t ration items in short supply by government fiat, price usually, is what does that. The market sets the price regardless of our complaints.  (Quote)

    Here’s where your argument goes off the rails. What ever happened to goodwill? What happened to the small town mentality that a high tide raises all ships? Watched a Smithsonian Channel show last night where a bunch of men in a small Canadian community just pitched in and worked their butts off to cut through 1800′ feet of two foot thick ice in two days to help get a sunken sailboat to shore for a neighbor they did not even know! This is what is missing today. Make a profit at all costs – to America or just make a buck off any schmuck dumb enough to do business in your store.

    Ever heard of Nordstroms? My wife works at one, and while Macy’s and other stores in her mall have employees sitting around on their hands, people flock to Nordstroms and gladly pay $350 bucks for a pair of sunglasses or a pair of shoes. Daily the place is packed! Why? Nordstroms started back in the day in downtown Seattle as a humble shoe store. From day one the Nordstrom family made it policy that the customer was always right no matter what. To this day you can stroll into a Nordstrom store with a pair of shoes you walked across the Sahara in and owned for five years and say you don’t like them and they gladly take them back, no questions asked. Wow! How do they succeed? How did they become a mega retailer with such poor business practices? Truth is, you will return to a company that is reputable. Nearly nobody returns anything they buy from my wife as opposed to huge numbers of people that buy from other retailers, use the product and return it before the store policy return cutoff. When you ask Nordstrom managment how they succeed even in this recession, they simply state that they stay seriously devoted to their customer base. They build relationships with their clients. It’s a win-win.

    Contrast that with the local Honda dealer who capitalized upon a disaster to sell generators at ungodly prices. How the hell do you expect a person who delved into the life savings to keep the kids and wife warm to EVER…EVER….EVER return there to buy a motorcycle, watercraft, lawn mower or ATV?!!!! In fact, I wrote Honda Motor Corp. about it and they promised me they’d contact that dealer with my story. Lake City Honda for all you Washington residents. Everyone there that day got a generator and first come, first serve makes a whole lot more sense. If you apply community spirit to it, any neighbor in need could definately borrow my generator or more likely come into my place and out of the cold.

    The American automobile industry really falls flat in it’s dealer sales process. Camel trading for used cars, I can see, but how many of us feel a knot in our gut and prepare intellectually for that new car purchase the way you prepare for a tax audit? Man, if you don’t go into a car dealership with your eyes open, packed with the knowledge gained by experts and data on the internet, you’re a sitting duck! It’s a farse how dealers use extended warrantys, $120 squirts of Scotchguard ( 6$ a can in the store, “Special Protection Package” in dealers ) and zillions of other scams to bleed money out of people. Every new car I’ve purchased I felt like I just finished a prize fight when I finally got the car I wanted for the fair price I wanted.

    I’m not one of these liberals who want the USA to be France or Germany….But the U.S. auto buying exprience isn’t gonna change any time soon. The Saturn experiment sent many other domestic car dealers to compete by charging an asking or MSRP price – no negotiations. It was great. If you didn’t like their markup or price, just go elsewhere. In the deal, you were offered a maintenance plan, or just showed the shop facility , introduced to shop managers and educated how that dealer would make you happy as an owner of that car for years to come. It was a whole different approach and it worked. It didn’t prevail with Saturn because if you ever looked at a Saturn, the cars were just vastly inferior to foreign makes, and their line didn’t include many of the domestic market’s wants, such as a half or full-sized pickup truck, or minivan. Saturn tried many odd advertising campaigns, but IMO never really hit hard on their differentiation between camel sales carlots and themselves. They really could not, because, being a division of GM, they would be stamping on their parent company’s feet. Many traditional dealers just outprofited Saturn dealers in town with superior product and the long-perfected tactics of bait-switch-lie-and-deal.

    A dealer who sells Volt at MSRP will and should be rewarded greatly in the future by honoring the customer – he or she’ll be back and may likely have a lifetime relationship with them.

    RECHARGE!

    James


  181. 181
    Barbara Wright

    -3

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Barbara Wright
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:31 pm)

    Of course there will be a huge markup!! Come on! We can get a comparable Honda Civic Hybrid loaded for 25K.

    $40,000 for a Volt, we’re not buying a luxury car like a BMW or Porsche.

    Rizza Chevy already charged me a $10,000 markup on a base model Chevy Cobalt. They wouldn’t come down, they lied telling me there were no 2 dr Coupes with automatic. I knew better but my parked Honda got smashed. I had no car to go to work.

    Also I would not buy another car from Rizza Chevy Bridgeview IL for that and customers are not allowed to view inventory without a salesman. This allows the salesman to be deceptive like that.


  182. 182
    nuclearboy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    nuclearboy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:35 pm)

    DonC: This isn’t an entirely theoretical question. Dealers in Colorado are apparently trying to shut down a planned Tesla showroom for the Model S based on state law that prohibits automakers from selling directly to consumers.

    These laws are most likely paid for with political support (i.e. bribes by any other name) for the politicians that make them.

    In Maryland, it is illegal to sell gas to cheap. Even during the gas crisis after Katrina when people were complaining how high gas prices were going, our enforcers were out trying to spot gas stations selling at a price determined to be too low (somehow tied to the average wholesale price for the state). In Maryland, they were also complaining about other gas stations gouging the customer in the time frame of the gas shortages. This too was investigated. It seems that you cannot sell gas too high or two low in the peoples republic of Maryland.

    Back on topic, the govts should get out of the way on things like this. Who could agree that it is a good idea not to let Tesla open up a showroom if they want too.


  183. 183
    nuclearboy

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    nuclearboy
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:38 pm)

    Barbara Wright: Also I would not buy another car from Rizza Chevy Bridgeview IL for that and customers are not allowed to view inventory without a salesman. This allows the salesman to be deceptive like that.

    This Rizza place sounds like a ripoff. They only want to selll to you once and hope to get as much out of you as they can. I hope you have other dealers around. When you find a good one, stick with them. There are plenty of lousy dealers in the Balto-Wash area but there also good ones to be found and I have had some good experiences. I hope you can find a good one in your area. They are not all bad.


  184. 184
    pjkPA

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    pjkPA
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:39 pm)

    How many other vehicles in high demand get a premium when they first come out? Is this car any different ? If the demand is there I can see a premium but not $20K unless they use the money for something good like giving part of it to charity. I like the idea of a raffle for a new Volt or maybe a auction to see what someone would go up to.


  185. 185
    Mike

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:49 pm)

    mark ysmith: Why do cars need dealers anyway – why can’t you get a car like you can buy a DELL computer – ordered off the web with the colours and spec you want?Maybe GM and whoever should seriously start looking into this! I think SMART started doing this – can’t understand why it doesn’t happen more… obviously dealers would be pissed…Test drive at a dealer… but don’t buy it there.  (Quote)


  186. 186
    Kent

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Kent
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:51 pm)

    Barbara Wright: Of course there will be a huge markup!! Come on! We can get a comparable Honda Civic Hybrid loaded for 25K.$40,000 for a Volt, we’re not buying a luxury car like a BMW or Porsche.Rizza Chevy already charged me a $10,000 markup on a base model Chevy Cobalt. They wouldn’t come down, they lied telling me there were no 2 dr Coupes with automatic. I knew better but my parkedHonda got smashed. I had no car to go to work.Also I would not buy another car from Rizza Chevy Bridgeview IL for that and customers are not allowed to view inventory without a salesman. This allows the salesman to be deceptive like that.  

    A $10,000 mark-up on a base Chevy Cobalt??? I paid $9,400 “out-the-door” for a base Chevy Cobalt (with A/C and auto transmission). This was at the same Courtesy Chevrolet mentioned in previous posts.


  187. 187
    DonC

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (5:57 pm)

    As an aside, car dealerships make their money on the service departments. New car sales are sort of a break even proposition. If they make some money that’s great but all the money is in service. I suspect the recession has hurt dealers more because there are probably a lot of people who are delaying getting their cars serviced than because of the drop in new car sales.

    This is actually a good reason to buy a Chevy (or Ford). Unlike a Lexus dealer, there is no way a Chevy dealer would have the chutzpah to charge you $395 for changing the “air cabin filter” every three years.


  188. 188
    John W (Tampa)

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    John W (Tampa)
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:00 pm)

    I don’t plan on buying one until I can get it for a little less than M.S.R.P. If that takes 3 years so be it.


  189. 189
    Mike

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:09 pm)

    mark ysmith: Why do cars need dealers anyway – why can’t you get a car like you can buy a DELL computer – ordered off the web with the colours and spec you want?Maybe GM and whoever should seriously start looking into this! I think SMART started doing this – can’t understand why it doesn’t happen more… obviously dealers would be pissed…Test drive at a dealer… but don’t buy it there.  (Quote)

    I disagree. When a Dell computer craps out on you, if it cannot be repaired the cost of a new one is not that great. Let your $52,500.00 Volt do that and I ask you where ya gonna get service? Who can afford to send their automotive techs to learn this new equipment?
    Sadly I don’t see dealers disappearing any time in the future. I can only hope they take into account the little guy too. If my dealer marked up 20 grand he knows I couldn’t afford it and would remember his gouging. When the price goes down I would shop some place else! If every one would leave the instant gradification mentality there would be no gouging.
    Come on people exercise some restraint.


  190. 190
    Future EV Driver

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Future EV Driver
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:11 pm)

    Should of bought your key off ebay for $20 and have an independent do the cutting and programming for WAY LESS!!!! Bought my Dodge replacement key like this…

    GO EV!!!

    Loboc: Never going to happen. If GM could do this, the dealer would just make up for it in service charges. You’re pretty much stuck going to a GM dealer if anything goes wrong with Volt.I recently bought a used Dodge. It cost $252.89 for a spare key. Ya can’t just go to Ace Hardware and get a key cut any more. Keys have computer chips in them now that need to be programmed to your specific car. The dealer has a monopoly on what to charge.  (Quote)


  191. 191
    Roy H

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Roy H
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:25 pm)

    NASA-Eng: Setting aside the “Pre Ordered” Volts. If a dealer has a Volt sitting on the lot and wants a $5k premium, but you walk in and say you want to lease it can they deny you that option..? Does the dealer effectively OWN the car. If thats the case it would seem the Lease Option is effectively a joke the 1st year.

    The lease is just like the MSRP, the dealer will be glad to lease you your car, at a higher lease rate! In fact the lease rate advertised by GM is artificially low as pointed out by CorvetteGuy, it requires the dealership to agree to forgo a significant portion of their standard fee. I predict that lots will be leased but that NONE will be leased at the quoted price.


  192. 192
    Mike Casey

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike Casey
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:34 pm)

    That’s what the free mkt is all about. But I’m not buying a volt until it gets under $20,000 @ the dealer, I’m not going to buy a volt until it gets over a hundred miles on the battery. And I won’t buy a Leaf until it gets a generator motor like the volt, I guess I’m stuck on gas for awhile. NPNS


  193. 193
    LeoK

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LeoK
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:47 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Lastly, I still get a chuckle from the few of you here that still rant: “I will never pay a penny over MSRP”, and “GM should not give any more cars to dealers that charge over MSRP”!!!
    The car business is NOT the same as a grocery store. Autombiles are one of America’s few commodities that are sold based directly on supply and demand. If GM had the power to control the dealers, that’s called a MONOPOLY.
    I never hear any of you guys complain when you get a ‘discount’, ‘rebate’ or ‘incentive’ that LOWERS your net price. THAAAATTTT’S PERFECTLY OKAY. Right?! But God forbid the dealer earn anything, even 1 penny, for a commodity in such high demand and low production.

    I couldn’t agree more with CorvetteGuy…. what else do you as a consumer go in and buy that has a ‘manufacturer’s suggested retail price’ listed on it? Oh yeah, the pre-packaged items at the local department store, where they routinly stick their own price label over the top of the listed price – many times their label is for more money. Believe it or not, everyone on this site pays more than MSRP for many consumable items on a daily basis. We buy milk from one store for 10 cents a gallon more than the next store because its more convenient. Well, when it comes to cars, you’ve just got to multiply that difference by a significant factor due to the dollars involved.

    MORE FACTORS: GM has released the VOLT’s MSRP @ $41,000, but they have NOT released the dealer’s cost. If GM made a decision to allow a greater margin on the VOLT due to limited supply, than say a Cobalt, then the likelihood of additional dealer markups becomes less likely. If GM decides they’ve spent too much on R&D and they want to recover more of their investment and they make the dealer markup very small, then dealer markups become more likely. The difference between a 5% margin and a 12-15% margin to the dealer is huge. If you are a dealer, and you need to invest $20,000 to train sales staff, technicians, install chargers, buy special tools, etc – and you’re going to get 5 to 10 cars for the first year, then your breakeven point is that total investment divided by your profit margin per vehicle. At a 5% margin, you’d need to sell 10 Volts to breakeven. At 12%, you’d need to sell just 4 to 5. But last time I checked, most dealers are not in business to breakeven; businesses exist to make a profit. Thus the free market takes over.

    MORE THOUGHTS: Has anyone stopped to think how many vehicles each individual dealer sells each year at a loss just to move it off the lot???? When you’ve been the benificiary of one of those ‘steal of a deal’ transactions, did you ever think “how did the dealer do it?”

    Simple answer: this is a fast paced, risk it all kind of business. Every day dealers buy and sell vehicles – some at a profit and some at a loss. For every vehicle the dealer sells at a loss, they need to make it up on one with a profit. During these past couple of years, there have been far more cases of selling vehicles at a loss to reduce inventory and floor plan expense than normal. Thus, it may be time for dealers to start siezing any opportunity to rebuild their business.

    OK, after all that, my dealership is still selling at MSRP. But we are requiring all first year VOLT buyers opt into our Concierge Club that provides all scheduled maintenance, including oil changes, wiper blades, brake pads, a loaner car with each service and a complimentary hand wash – for a term of 36 months or 36,000 miles at a cost of $1,495. You can view this as a premium, but we believe it offers significant added value and it will allow our staff to stay in closer contact with our VOLT owners.

    Enough rant for tonight!


  194. 194
    LeoK

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    LeoK
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (6:54 pm)

    Barbara Wright: Of course there will be a huge markup!! Come on! We can get a comparable Honda Civic Hybrid loaded for 25K.$40,000 for a Volt, we’re not buying a luxury car like a BMW or Porsche.Rizza Chevy already charged me a $10,000 markup on a base model Chevy Cobalt. They wouldn’t come down, they lied telling me there were no 2 dr Coupes with automatic. I knew better but my parked Honda got smashed. I had no car to go to work.Also I would not buy another car from Rizza Chevy Bridgeview IL for that and customers are not allowed to view inventory without a salesman. This allows the salesman to be deceptive like that.  (Quote)

    I’ve said this before many times on this site…. its a free country and you are free to go buy a vehicle from any dealer you choose. In the U.S.A. almost every dealership is an independent small business, and each has their own way of doing business. If you are not comfortable with a salesperson or a dealership, WALK AWAY BEFORE YOU SIGN or give them your money.


  195. 195
    Jimza Skeptic

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:03 pm)

    Charles Stump: Rush Limbaugh spent most of an entire hour of his broadcast during the last week of July condeming the very high price of the new Chevy Volt which he stated would be $41,000, which he felt was beyond the means of the average car buyer.Limbaugh also indicated you could buy a model of Mercedes for that same price or several other luxury cars.
    I agree with Limbaugh.I thought the idea of the Volt was to make a good electric car accessible to the average American car buyer.Forty one thousand is well beyond the average price of a brand new car, average now being $22,000 over all.
    The forty one thousand makes the Toyota Prius look like a real bargain on the new car market.Admittedly, I was discouraged to see this luxury car pricing announced for the Chevy Volt.We certainly can’t afford that as average income American senior citizens.  

    Senior citizens should look into driving the Mitsubishi MiEV when it comes out. Or to try finding a Zenn NEV for about 10K. They should not be driving over 100 miles per day anyway! ;-)


  196. 196
    Dave K.

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:34 pm)

    Just received an email. Order number on one Red 2011 Volt was generated today. One small step for man, one giant …

    =D-Volt


  197. 197
    Jimza Skeptic

    +4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:38 pm)

    Barbara Wright: Of course there will be a huge markup!! Come on! We can get a comparable Honda Civic Hybrid loaded for 25K.$40,000 for a Volt, we’re not buying a luxury car like a BMW or Porsche.Rizza Chevy already charged me a $10,000 markup on a base model Chevy Cobalt. They wouldn’t come down, they lied telling me there were no 2 dr Coupes with automatic. I knew better but my parkedHonda got smashed. I had no car to go to work.Also I would not buy another car from Rizza Chevy Bridgeview IL for that and customers are not allowed to view inventory without a salesman. This allows the salesman to be deceptive like that.  

    Sorry Barbie — I went to the Rizza web site and they have an amazing site showing inventory with pictures, etc. Here is how I handle buying a car… I research the car I want, find the true cost of the car via many web sites… Decide what I want and what I will pay. I then go to dealers web sites and find what is available close or matching what I want. I then make them a take it or leave it offer. Out of the 8-10 dealers I make initial contact with I have gotten at least 2-3 takers. I then decide which dealer is best and purchase. When they try to sell the add-ons I say no and smile. Maybe they are pissed, maybe not. If they don’t like my offer they say no, and if they don’t meet mine, I say no… How hard can it be???? ;-)


  198. 198
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:39 pm)

    JohnK: When I lingered in the Tesla area at the Detroit auto show (Jan) the Tesla rep stated that the full first year of Model S cars would be priced at $80K because they would all be configured as “Limited Editions” with special options and special paint (the red model on display was VERY special paint). And people are complaining about $41K?

    They did the same thing with the first Roadster models. Imagine how much a small group of insiders were willing to pay for 100 of the first and only highway capable and electric sports cars marketed. Must be nice.


  199. 199
    Larry Parylla

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Larry Parylla
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (7:56 pm)

    Future EV Driver: Should of bought your key off ebay for $20 and have an independent do the cutting and programming for WAY LESS!!!! Bought my Dodge replacement key like this…GO EV!!!
      

    You are wrong about getting a key from ebay if the vehicle is fairly new. I just got a 2010 dodge truck a few months ago and there is nothing to cut. The key is a plastic fob with a rectangular plastic end, I am guessing 1/4 inch by 3/4 inch. I haven’t tried this but my guess is that anything that size that will fit in the hole will turn the starter but if the electronic transmitter isn’t close by the vehicle will not start. I have heard Mercedes has the same type key, and Lexus/Toyota does not even have any thing to turn. You just push the start button and the key in in your pocket the vehicle will start, if it isn’t nothing happens when you push the start button.


  200. 200
    Future EV Driver

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Future EV Driver
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:20 pm)

    Nice club offer deal Leo!!!!

    GO EV!!!!

    LeoK:
    I couldn’t agree more with CorvetteGuy…. what else do you as a consumer go in and buy that has a ‘manufacturer’s suggested retail price’ listed on it?Oh yeah, the pre-packaged items at the local department store, where they routinly stick their own price label over the top of the listed price – many times their label is for more money.Believe it or not, everyone on this site pays more than MSRP for many consumable items on a daily basis.We buy milk from one store for 10 cents a gallon more than the next store because its more convenient.Well, when it comes to cars, you’ve just got to multiply that difference by a significant factor due to the dollars involved.MORE FACTORS:GM has released the VOLT’s MSRP @ $41,000, but they have NOT released the dealer’s cost.If GM made a decision to allow a greater margin on the VOLT due to limited supply, than say a Cobalt, then the likelihood of additional dealer markups becomes less likely.If GM decides they’ve spent too much on R&D and they want to recover more of their investment and they make the dealer markup very small, then dealer markups become more likely.The difference between a 5% margin and a 12-15% margin to the dealer is huge.If you are a dealer, and you need to invest $20,000 to train sales staff, technicians, install chargers, buy special tools, etc – and you’re going to get 5 to 10 cars for the first year, then your breakeven point is that total investment divided by your profit margin per vehicle.At a 5% margin, you’d need to sell 10 Volts to breakeven.At 12%, you’d need to sell just 4 to 5.But last time I checked, most dealers are not in business to breakeven; businesses exist to make a profit.Thus the free market takes over.MORE THOUGHTS:Has anyone stopped to think how many vehicles each individual dealer sells each year at a loss just to move it off the lot????When you’ve been the benificiary of one of those ’steal of a deal’ transactions, did you ever think “how did the dealer do it?”Simple answer:this is a fast paced, risk it all kind of business.Every day dealers buy and sell vehicles – some at a profit and some at a loss.For every vehicle the dealer sells at a loss, they need to make it up on one with a profit.During these past couple of years, there have been far more cases of selling vehicles at a loss to reduce inventory and floor plan expense than normal.Thus, it may be time for dealers to start siezing any opportunity to rebuild their business.OK, after all that, my dealership is still selling at MSRP.But we are requiring all first year VOLT buyers opt into our Concierge Club that provides all scheduled maintenance, including oil changes, wiper blades, brake pads, a loaner car with each service and a complimentary hand wash – for a term of 36 months or 36,000 miles at a cost of $1,495.You can view this as a premium, but we believe it offers significant added value and it will allow our staff to stay in closer contact with our VOLT owners.Enough rant for tonight!  


  201. 201
    JEC

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JEC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (8:54 pm)

    The Grump: It will be interesting to see if any Volts appear on ebay to be sold to the highest bidder.

    Your living up to your name…

    /just saying


  202. 202
    Tall Pete

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Tall Pete
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:00 pm)

    Brad: This seems like a simple fix for GM. If a particular dealer is overcharging for the Volt and GM does not want that to happen then do not allocate any more Volts to that particular dealership. Send them to another dealer that does not do that.  

    Usually, the allocation given to a dealership depends on the number of units (cars) sold. If a dealership charges too much, he won’t sell that many units and therefore the allocation will be reduced. Balance will be reached rapidly.

    Also, it’s not bad for those ready to pay a hefty premium to know that there is a dealer where they will have access to a Volt immediately – at a price, of course.


  203. 203
    JEC

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JEC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:01 pm)

    DonC: As an aside, car dealerships make their money on the service departments. New car sales are sort of a break even proposition. If they make some money that’s great but all the money is in service. I suspect the recession has hurt dealers more because there are probably a lot of people who are delaying getting their cars serviced than because of the drop in new car sales.
    This is actually a good reason to buy a Chevy (or Ford). Unlike a Lexus dealer, there is no way a Chevy dealer would have the chutzpah to charge you $395 for changing the “air cabin filter” every three years.  

    I would expect that the service depts would be busier during hard times. People tend to hold their cars longer and have them repaired, instead of buying new.

    BTW: $395 to change a filter? Really? Is it buried inside the dash or something? No Lexus in my future, but maybe the new Ford Festiva.


  204. 204
    Dave K.

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dave K.
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:01 pm)

  205. 205
    JEC

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JEC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:02 pm)

    Jaime: Just another reason why people hate car dealers more than going to the dentist. If they tried to gouge me I would simply walk away.No car is worth even paying MSRP, let alone a premium on top of that.I can wait.  

    Walking away is always an option, but for a high demand vehicle the dealer could really care less. He will just sell it to the guy standing behind you.


  206. 206
    JEC

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JEC
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:12 pm)

    I guess DaveG meant it when he said he was out, after they announced the $41k Volt price.

    No more of the “How much gas will all these vehicles use”
    No more of the graphic showing the different modes of Volt operation.
    No more “BEV’s will only be for a very small segment of the population”

    I kinda miss some to DaveG’s arguments, and he really did have a lot of good arguments. I wonder if he is lurking, or did he really give up the Volt site. I tried, but I lurked and then jumped back in. It was very hard to not chime in….

    Come on DaveG. We need your viewpoints back, seriously.


  207. 207
    Hodginator

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Hodginator
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:18 pm)

    I’m disappointed to see that some dealers are price gouging since it will just be ammo for the press to put Chevy down again. Not to mention you shouldn’t beat up your most loyal customer (early adopters). But the reality of the matter is that any shady dealer would do the same thing no matter what make or model it is.

    I hope to find one for a fair price.


  208. 208
    Conservative Conservationist

    +2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Conservative Conservationist
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:32 pm)

    All of you complaining about dealers that want to make as much money on the Volt are just as greedy at saving your money as they are. Why is greed ok for you but not for them?
    Dealers making a lot of money selling Volts is probably the best thing that could happen to help us end our addiction to oil because it would make them allies in the sale of the Volt not enemies.
    There aren’t going to be enough Volts to keep up with the demand for several years so most of us aren’t going to get cars anyway.
    We might as well let the rich bail out the auto industry in order to get their cars so that the rest of us don’t have to.


  209. 209
    john1701a

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    john1701a
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (9:54 pm)

    JEC: Come on DaveG. We need your viewpoints back, seriously.

    It was his use of “typical” that served as inspiration. He arbitrarily grouped together some values to represent what a driver would drive over the course of the year. Those claims were far too vague and quite unrealistic. Nonetheless, he gets credit for the persistence… enough to contribute to me actually collecting real-world data use instead. Only 11 days remain.

    As for enthusiasts jumping ship, that’s to be expected. Much will change when rollout begins.

    Remember, some of what want the same thing but are pushing for that outcome from a different perspective. Mine… apparently like Dave’s… was the ensure the technology was affordable for many.


  210. 210
    The Original James

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    The Original James
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:37 pm)

    Dont get me wrong I love the Volt but I would never pay its current MSRP and I sure as hell would never let myself get gouged on top of that. Go buy an MIEV, LEAF, Ford Focus BEV, Prius PHEV and on and on for less…..


  211. 211
    The grump

    -2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    The grump
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (10:49 pm)

    The Grump: It will be interesting to see if any Volts appear on ebay to be sold to the highest bidder.

    #201
    JEC: Your living up to your name…/just saying  (Quote)

    ——————————————–
    JEC, I never said anything about Ebay. Couldn’t care less about Ebay, either. You have me confused with poster #28, BobS.

    As for living up to the name… thank you. YOU TRY working 28 long years for the federal government, and see how cheerful and happy you are. It simply comes with the job – where do you think the phrase “going postal” came from ? I work for five hundred and thirty five idiots in DC every day, not to mention a one hour commute each way.

    However, I will promise not to stop and laugh at the Leaf drivers on the side of the road with depleted batteries. Or at least I’ll try not to. It may be too tempting to resist.


  212. 212
    The grump

    -4

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    The grump
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:12 pm)

    #96 The Grump: GM should have set a higher price for the Volt in stone, rather than have a bunch of yahoo dealers run the price up and down the field.

    #100
    CorvetteGuy: That was the Saturn business model. Look where they ended up.  (Quote)

    ———————————————————————————

    Saturn died because of their poor quality product. The original Saturn had a reputation for engines blowing their head gaskets at 85000 miles or less. After that, Saturn started building the ugly Vue. Poor quality rep and ho-hum styling killed Saturn, not their 1-price selling policy.

    Doesn’t matter anyway – GM is intent on running car sales the same way they did before the bailout. The dealer’s message to Volt customers: “Bend over GM customer – we’re gonna screw you over good”. And GM couldn’t care less. Why exactly did we bail them out, if they learned nothing from the bailout, hmmmmm ? Oh yeah, the Volt.

    If you want to pay $5000.00, $7500.00, or even $8000.00 over MSRP, be my guest. I’ll watch intently as you hand over your life savings to pay for some sales manager’s vacation in the Bahamas.


  213. 213
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 4th, 2010 (11:58 pm)

    James:
    Here’s where your argument goes off the rails. What ever happened to goodwill? What happened to the small town mentality that a high tide raises all ships? Watched a Smithsonian Channel show last night where a bunch of men in a small Canadian community just pitched in and worked their butts off to cut through 1800′ feet of two foot thick ice in two days to help get a sunken sailboat to shore for a neighbor they did not even know! This is what is missing today. Make a profit at all costs – to America or just make a buck off any schmuck dumb enough to do business in your store.Ever heard of Nordstroms? My wife works at one, and while Macy’s and other stores in her mall have employees sitting around on their hands, people flock to Nordstroms and gladly pay $350 bucks for a pair of sunglasses or a pair of shoes. Daily the place is packed! Why? Nordstroms started back in the day in downtown Seattle as a humble shoe store. From day one the Nordstrom family made it policy that the customer was always right no matter what. To this day you can stroll into a Nordstrom store with a pair of shoes you walked across the Sahara in and owned for five years and say you don’t like them and they gladly take them back, no questions asked. Wow! How do they succeed? How did they become a mega retailer with such poor business practices? Truth is, you will return to a company that is reputable. Nearly nobody returns anything they buy from my wife as opposed to huge numbers of people that buy from other retailers, use the product and return it before the store policy return cutoff. When you ask Nordstrom managment how they succeed even in this recession, they simply state that they stay seriously devoted to their customer base. They build relationships with their clients. It’s a win-win.Contrast that with the local Honda dealer who capitalized upon a disaster to sell generators at ungodly prices. How the hell do you expect a person who delved into the life savings to keep the kids and wife warm to EVER…EVER….EVER return there to buy a motorcycle, watercraft, lawn mower or ATV?!!!! In fact, I wrote Honda Motor Corp. about it and they promised me they’d contact that dealer with my story. Lake City Honda for all you Washington residents. Everyone there that day got a generator and first come, first serve makes a whole lot more sense. If you apply community spirit to it, any neighbor in need could definately borrow my generator or more likely come into my place and out of the cold.The American automobile industry really falls flat in it’s dealer sales process. Camel trading for used cars, I can see, but how many of us feel a knot in our gut and prepare intellectually for that new car purchase the way you prepare for a tax audit? Man, if you don’t go into a car dealership with your eyes open, packed with the knowledge gained by experts and data on the internet, you’re a sitting duck! It’s a farse how dealers use extended warrantys, $120 squirts of Scotchguard ( 6$ a can in the store, “Special Protection Package” in dealers ) and zillions of other scams to bleed money out of people. Every new car I’ve purchased I felt like I just finished a prize fight when I finally got the car I wanted for the fair price I wanted.I’m not one of these liberals who want the USA to be France or Germany….But the U.S. auto buying exprience isn’t gonna change any time soon. The Saturn experiment sent many other domestic car dealers to compete by charging an asking or MSRP price – no negotiations. It was great. If you didn’t like their markup or price, just go elsewhere. In the deal, you were offered a maintenance plan, or just showed the shop facility , introduced to shop managers and educated how that dealer would make you happy as an owner of that car for years to come. It was a whole different approach and it worked. It didn’t prevail with Saturn because if you ever looked at a Saturn, the cars were just vastly inferior to foreign makes, and their line didn’t include many of the domestic market’s wants, such as a half or full-sized pickup truck, or minivan. Saturn tried many odd advertising campaigns, but IMO never really hit hard on their differentiation between camel sales carlots and themselves. They really could not, because, being a division of GM, they would be stamping on their parent company’s feet. Many traditional dealers just outprofited Saturn dealers in town with superior product and the long-perfected tactics of bait-switch-lie-and-deal.A dealer who sells Volt at MSRP will and should be rewarded greatly in the future by honoring the customer – he or she’ll be back and may likely have a lifetime relationship with them.RECHARGE!James  

    That all sounds great, really great. Remember when the old guys used to sit on the porch and talk about how much better things were in the old days. Well not to worry, if I’m lucky, in a couple years I’ll be one of the old guys telling stories like that.

    In the mean time, in a world where really bad stuff happens, I’m responsible for taking care of myself and family, argument off the rails or not. And I do think the Volt could have an impact on some bad things out there. However, what I’m not thinkin’ is, a smile, a small towns attitude and great customer service is going to lead to such a massive groundswell of changes that I can assume that our families would be taken care of if we don’t do it.

    And why does a story about a group of folks selflessly clearing 1800 feet of ice make top billing on a major cable channel? Though I love stories like that. My guess is, it’s because it doesn’t happen very often. Control f my comments and you won’t see a single reference to make a buck off a dumb smuck. More like people with a lot of money and desires, or people a real need, will move to the front of the line ahead of me. For Volts and other things too.

    And Saturn was great when I wanted to purchase a car, all smiles and “can I get you anything”. But when it came time to negotiate trading in my old car…Suddenly the smiles are gone and an attitude of inflexibility prevailed. In a competition for resources it’s naive to believe everyone around you will be nice and considerate of all your needs.

    The Saturn salesman and managers were really nice when they had a great no haggle price for the car I wanted. But when they realized they were bound to an inflexible trade in system, time to take the gloves off. If they expected to stick with their system; and be able to put food on the table and pay for the kids to go to college anyway. Because in that instance, they knew they would need me to keep more of my trade-in money on the table than I thought was fair.

    Just My Opinions, hope you get your car when you want it, at a price you think is fair.


  214. 214
    jeffhre

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    jeffhre
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (12:09 am)

    John W (Tampa): I don’t plan on buying one until I can get it for a little less than M.S.R.P. If that takes 3 years so be it.

    Just in time for Gen II. And it looks like GM plans to take a little different route to design and engineering for those.


  215. 215
    DonC

    -2

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    DonC
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (12:42 am)

    JEC: I would expect that the service depts would be busier during hard times. People tend to hold their cars longer and have them repaired, instead of buying new.
    BTW: $395 to change a filter? Really? Is it buried inside the dash or something? No Lexus in my future, but maybe the new Ford Festiva. 

    They buy used cars but nope, they don’t take them in for servicing unless it’s absolutely necessary. Plus you can save bucks if you don’t go to the dealer.

    The filter is just some screw in thing that Lexus will use to screw you over. But high chargers are not exactly limited to Lexus. If you want someone to have a heart attack just have them try getting their oil changed at a Porshe dealer.


  216. 216
    Volts for Free

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Volts for Free
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (1:41 am)

    Jack Wagon: To all the little children: here’s something to turn your wine into grins:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA  (Quote)

    “Not getting my Volt for free makes me sad…” Lots of crying today. Thanks for the laughs, Jack.


  217. 217
    Jimza Skeptic

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (4:37 am)

    The grump: The Grump: It will be interesting to see if any Volts appear on ebay to be sold to the highest bidder.——————————————–
    JEC, I never said anything about Ebay. Couldn’t care less about Ebay, either. You have me confused with poster #28, BobS.
    As for living up to the name… thank you. YOU TRY working 28 long years for the federal government, and see how cheerful and happy you are. It simply comes with the job – where do you think the phrase “going postal” came from ? I work for five hundred and thirty five idiots in DC every day, not to mention a one hour commute each way.However, I will promise not to stop and laugh at the Leaf drivers on the side of the road with depleted batteries. Or at least I’ll try not to. It may be too tempting to resist.  

    Dude, I worked for the Government for 14 months, and saw how F’d up they were left for private industry. Worked for a good company for 2 years and learned more. Jumped to another company where I have been for 22 happy years. A person who is not happy in their job should quit and go somewhere else. If you are any good at your craft/profession you will find a job anywhere without a problem. 1 hour commute. Same thing… Move closer to work!!!! Move to a job in a city where you can live by your work! Your argument pail holds no water.


  218. 218
    Jimza Skeptic

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Jimza Skeptic
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (5:08 am)

    James:
    I would not look at a dealer asking $10-20,000 over invoice for a Volt an differently than the Honda dealer who looked at me with doe eyes after a 4 day windstorm power outage in my area and stated ( asking $1200 over invoice ) that I could just step aside and give my place in line over to the next guy if I didn’t like the price – and that “it’s not price gouging, it’s supply and demand” ! I relentlessly tell friends and neighbors to not do business with this Honda shop and people are appalled at how they could do such ( my kids were cold – no fireplace in my home ) a thing in a time of crisis. Balderdash!RECHARGE!James  

    James – My question is why did you not have a generator before the storm? Why are you so cheap and thoughtless to your families safety as to not have this in place? Shame on you! I hope you at least took them to a community shelter.

    I assume you have insurance on your house. I bought a back up generator the day after I bought my house as insurance. I use it for a power outage or sometimes for external power. I have neighbors that have generators and neighbors who don’t. On the once every other year that power goes out, I have back-up. Usually one neighbor always calls and asks if he can run a line to my generator to keep the sump pump running or something. I always tell him no… Can’t handle the load. He is much like you, only thinks about buying one when he needs it, complains when store is out or the price. He gets through that ordeal until the next storm 2-3 years later…


  219. 219
    Loboc

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Loboc
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (5:39 am)

    Future EV Driver: Should of bought your key off ebay for $20 and have an independent do the cutting and programming for WAY LESS!!!! Bought my Dodge replacement key like this…

    from an eBay listing:
    “THIS KEY DOES NOT HAVE THE ELECTRONICS IN IT. ”

    I actually wanted one that worked including the remote function.


  220. 220
    Brad

    -1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Brad
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (8:22 am)

    The Original James: Dont get me wrong I love the Volt but I would never pay its current MSRP and I sure as hell would never let myself get gouged on top of that. Go buy an MIEV, LEAF, Ford Focus BEV, Prius PHEV and on and on for less…..  (Quote)

    Currently a fully loaded prius runs around $36,000. What will a Prius PHEV run? I would expect more than that. How is this much cheaper than a Volt? (remember the volt is practially fully loaded). They haven’t made a scaled down Volt yet so its really not fair to compare the prices to a scaled down prius.


  221. 221
    john1701a

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    john1701a
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (9:43 am)

    Brad: Currently a fully loaded prius runs around $36,000. What will a Prius PHEV run?

    No, it’s not that expensive. And the features offered, like Lane Keep Assist, puts it well into the luxury range.

    As for the PHEV feature, the price is targeted at $4,000. It is expected to be offered on a mid-package model, not the high-end.


  222. 222
    George K

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    George K
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (2:00 pm)

    Rashiid Amul
    Ahhh. Patience is a virtue, GeorgeK.

    ——–
    I hope you’re right, Rashiid, as I’m now waiting for my other car to wear out, so I can justify (to wife) a gen II Volt! :)


  223. 223
    Richard Yeager-Stiver

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Richard Yeager-Stiver
     Says

     

    Aug 5th, 2010 (4:43 pm)

    Our Detroit dealer said he would charge no higher than MSRP. He wasn’t sure there would be GM employee pricing available for the Volt, but he is willing to look into it when the car comes to market.


  224. 224
    James

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    James
     Says

     

    Aug 6th, 2010 (5:28 am)

    jeffhre: That all sounds great, really great. Remember when the old guys used to sit on the porch and talk about how much better things were in the old days. Well not to worry, if I’m lucky, in a couple years I’ll be one of the old guys telling stories like that. In the mean time, in a world where really bad stuff happens, I’m responsible for taking care of myself and family, argument off the rails or not. And I do think the Volt could have an impact on some bad things out there. However, what I’m not thinkin’ is, a smile, a small towns attitude and great customer service is going to lead to such a massive groundswell of changes that I can assume that our families would be taken care of if we don’t do it.And why does a story about a group of folks selflessly clearing 1800 feet of ice make top billing on a major cable channel? Though I love stories like that. My guess is, it’s because it doesn’t happen very often. Control f my comments and you won’t see a single reference to make a buck off a dumb smuck. More like people with a lot of money and desires, or people a real need, will move to the front of the line ahead of me. For Volts and other things too.And Saturn was great when I wanted to purchase a car, all smiles and “can I get you anything”. But when it came time to negotiate trading in my old car…Suddenly the smiles are gone and an attitude of inflexibility prevailed. In a competition for resources it’s naive to believe everyone around you will be nice and considerate of all your needs. The Saturn salesman and managers were really nice when they had a great no haggle price for the car I wanted. But when they realized they were bound to an inflexible trade in system, time to take the gloves off. If they expected to stick with their system; and be able to put food on the table and pay for the kids to go to college anyway. Because in that instance, they knew they would need me to keep more of my trade-in money on the table than I thought was fair. Just My Opinions, hope you get your car when you want it, at a price you think is fair.  (Quote)

    My question for you is — Why were you at the Saturn dealer in the first place?

    ~ was it the no haggle approach to sales? If it was, your reasonings for supporting the supply and demand – the richest get the goods and that’s great – posts just lose their authenticity…Did you think you would get more than your used car was worth? Are you unfamiliar with how the American car sales scenario works? ( trading in a car to a dealer is never a good idea, sell it outright, and if you’re timid or don’t have that kind of time, use a professional broker, you’ll still make out better than trading in for a new car at a dealer ).

    People who purchased Saturns were not “car guys”. I understand many people have lots more to do in life than research cars. Yet the first Saturns were really pathetic. Towards the end, GM’s Saturn division resorted to revising GM’s European Opel offerings with different trim and selling them here as Saturns. These cars were leaps ahead of the Saturns of the first years, but they still were at least one iteration outdated when compared to offerings from Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Volkswagen.

    I’m a car guy. I have been all my life. I grew up in the industry. Saturn was a great idea from GM. They decided to boldy go where no major U.S. automaker dared to tread – non UAW, non Detroit worker-land. They found a country town who’se main employer left, who’se farming roots had left it waning — and hired it’s fairly well educated, skilled and loyal ( smalltown ethic…hello? ) and unemployed workforce. They used strategy the foreign brands use – work state and local governments into lower taxation and sweetheart real estate bargains in trade for job creation. It had all the markings of a genius move – win win win win all around…Saturn, a new kind of American car company. Why not add to it a European-type no haggle pricing model?

    It flopped. It wasn’t for the trying. It was because GM couldn’t ( or wouldn’t ) give Saturn a decent car to build. By the time the re-labeled Opels came into play, Saturn was already on death watch.

    I’m a car guy. I know dealer’s tricks. I know do’s and don’ts. I know a good car from a cheap imitator posing as a good car. What is tiring is trying to reason with folks who do not.

    Not everyone who is intrested in GM’s Volt is a car person. You can read testimonials here today from women….( oh woe the woman who goes alone to buy a new car!… ) who’ve been swindled, and people who say they’re Volt fans but drive big HEMIs to work….. Lots of people today agreeing with the babblings of a Chevy car salesman who’se every word sounds like one of my old colleagues sales pitches…..

    It’s a jungle out there.

    The Volt is a glorious thing. It’s the only reason I ever came to gm-volt.com. When we think of Volt we admire it’s superior design, it’s better-than-an-EV tech. Volt just makes one feel good because it’s as if an American car company finally “got it”. But they don’t. That is obvious.

    But it’s fun to dream…..

    RECHARGE!

    James


  225. 225
    Voltless

    +1

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Voltless
     Says

     

    Aug 6th, 2010 (12:24 pm)

    The interesting part of this whole equation is GM’s statement they have no control over how the dealerships price their VOLTS. I am sure after asking the dealerships to “price fairly” or to ” do the right thing”. if the dealerships were still gouging GM simply does not supply that dealership with anymore stock.
    GM has the power the dealerships need this car on their lots, it gets people in looking at cars the Volt and alternatives. Screwing a few people to make a buck as Chrysler did with many models past just puts a bad taste in the mouth of the consumer.
    In response to the quote by RB “But insofar as dealers charging more than MSRP, that’s how the system works — market prices. We didn’t extend much sympathy to dealers when they had to mark down inventory during the economic downturn, and the other side is not to criticize too much on those rare occasions when dealers have a hot product that can be marked up.”
    Most of the discounts at GM dealerships were made by the manufacturer to help the dealerships move stock in the troubled time, so my sympathy for the dealerships is very limited.
    In closing I can afford a VOLT even if there is a huge markup on it , but I will not pay it or buy anything ever from a dealership that tries to charge me. Remember General Motors and dealer network even though you have paid back the money that kept you afloat, That money was made off the backs of all North Americans “Your Customers”.


  226. 226
    JCW

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    JCW
     Says

     

    Aug 8th, 2010 (9:27 pm)

    At MSRP plus $20K I will spring for the ‘Vette.


  227. 227
    Dwayne

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Dwayne
     Says

     

    Aug 11th, 2010 (9:35 am)

    Well, another loser for Government Motors, maybe the Obama regime will bail out this loser too. I remember when this all started several years ago with the prototype which looked far better than the “Cruze” hybrid we have had pawned off on us by GM. The price started at 20K WOW a better looking vehicle than the crappy Toyota Prius sporty and even better in a lot of ways. I have done quite a bit of figuring………….unless gas costs SKYROCKET none of the hybrids make any sense right now for my budget, and the current economy. My Impala gets about 27mpg on the highway and about 23 around town. It would take years for the difference in gas savings to make any major impact in my budget, I think other buyers that this vehicle would appeal to think the same way, so unless you are trying to have a collectors item the whole Volt project is a huge LOSER!!! GM had a viable plug in electric that by now could probably have been the most technologically advanced and most energy efficient vehicle on the planet, but there short sighted vision and voracious destruction ruined that idea too. I think GM is headed the way of the dinosaur EXTINCTION!!!


  228. 228
    marco

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    marco
     Says

     

    Aug 11th, 2010 (11:54 am)

    I write from Italy, we will not have chevy volt on our market, we will wait for Opel version the name we know for the car is “ampera”. For the moment we have no idea of the time to market for the european version of chevy volt, but i can say for myself that if we will have 20.000 Euros surplus for the dealer respect to the price suggested by the manufacturer, no one will buy the car and it will be an enormous flop for both Opel and GM.


  229. 229
    marco

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    marco
     Says

     

    Aug 11th, 2010 (12:15 pm)

    P.S. – I agree with “Dwayne”, if GM wil not change his vision volt project will be just an expensive technical exercise.


  230. 230
    Mike

     

    Vote -1 Vote +1

    Mike
     Says

     

    Aug 27th, 2010 (8:49 pm)

    It is simple. Vote with your dollars. When the Prius was super popular I found a dealer that sold at MSRP and have been a faithful customer ever since. Those dealerships that were selling well above MSRP did not get my business and never will.