Jul 29

Chevy Volt May Launch Without Official EPA Efficiency Label

 


[ad#post_ad]The two most closely guarded secrets about the Chevrolet Volt have been its price and its fuel economy while running in generator mode.

Now that we know the price, how about the other secret?

It turns out we may never see an official announcement from GM even after the car launches into retail deliveries.

GM has insisted, rightly so, the Volt should not be compared to other cars, and that its in a class of its own. Without doubt for the majority of drivers during the majority of their drives the Volt will use no gas at all. And although gas will burn at a certain rate while the generator is running, its contribution to overall fuel economy may be minimal.

When GM announced last Summer that the Volt could get 230 mpg on average over time, they took into account nightly recharging and typical driving patterns. It was an illustration but not fact.

The fact is the EPA is still trying to determine the best method for creating a consumer sticker for the Volt. Recently ratified SAE J1711 standard will be used to measure the car’s efficiency and still takes use over time into account.

Because the typically slow-moving bureaucratic EPA still hasn’t concluded what label the Volt will have, GM admits they might not even have one from them come November when the car reaches showrooms.

“Its possible the EPA still won’t have a label when the Volt goes into production,” said GM spokesperson Rob Peterson. “They’re just trying to do what’s right.”

Instead GM may issue its own detailed chart label to go with the car illustrating typical fuel usage in a variety of scenarios that will serve temporarily.

“The VOLT will have a label for launch with a lot of information to assist the customer,” says Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz. “It will not be the final label beyond 2011 MY.”

The eventual EPA label “will have a lot of info including a fuel efficiency number if you never charge your VOLT,” he said.

As for who will release that generator (CS) mode MPG, it “wont be GM,” said Peterson. We won’t then likely get fuel economy in generator mode estimates until the cars is driven for extended periods by early buyers and the media.

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This entry was posted on Thursday, July 29th, 2010 at 6:22 am and is filed under Efficiency, Generator. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 321


  1. 1
    RB

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:26 am)

    Yes, my expectation is that the first we will learn of CS mpg is from customers’ reports.

    There does not seem to be any kind of rule requiring that gm give us this number, for if anything the requirement will involve some kind of composite, and we see that gm is not inclined to do so independently.

    The good part is that Lyle will have the gm-volt Volt, and there will be lots of independent reports. As few or none of any of the rest of us will have any Volts, we can sit back and judge all of these dispassionately :)


  2. 2
    Rashiid Amul

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:28 am)

    The wheels of government move at a snails pace.

    Rb is correct. I wouldn’t be surprised if the CS mode MPG is posted here first.


  3. 3
    Money Pit

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:29 am)

    Is it even legal to sell a vehicle in the US without the EPA sticker? and GM refusing to inform purchasers of what the CS mileage is? Seems problematic to me ..


  4. 4
    Eco_Turbo

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:30 am)

    What better way could there be to compare to a “normal” car than to drive the Volt like a normal car and see what MPG you get?


  5. 5
    Brother of GM employee

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:30 am)

    Simply tell people this: EV range and mpg during CS mode, it is not that difficult. Why GM keep trying to hide this or trying to cook the numbers for ballyhoo? Answer is very simple: MPG during charge sustaining mode is about 35 mpg under normal driving conditions.
    They behave the same way as they did before Chapter 11, with all those said, we must appreciate GM engineers, you are the best, but the top managers are sh*t and will continue to ruin the company.


  6. 6
    Rextado

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:32 am)

    Who cares the EPA-Number if you regular plug it in?


  7. 7
    koz

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:42 am)

    From Lyle’s Post: As for who will release that generator (CS) mode MPG, it “wont be GM,” said Peterson.  (Quote)

    Why not? How can they produce a chart showing fuel usage under varying situations without revealing this info? They can’t, so they may as well just state what the highway and city CS mode economy is via the current EPA standard. This is going to be derived by many of us and the media in 2 seconds anyway and knowing the media if one notable source makes a mistake it will be reported wrongly thousands if times afterwards (just ask Shirley Sherrod).

    When GM feels the time is right, they should absoutely release their CS mode estimates and they should do this before “real” test drives or other deriving info is released.


  8. 8
    taser54

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:42 am)

    I still think that the volt has a 6 gallon tank. Why? Because back in the design phase the engineers said that they would have to have two tanks if it went over 6 gallons and that added complexity to the design.

    I’ve read the Consumer Reports post about a 9 gallon “tank” (note the singular), but I’m still going to wait and see.

    A 6 gallon tank with a 300 mile range would give us 50 mpg HWY in CS mode.


  9. 9
    Jim I

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:46 am)

    This is just silly.

    The EPA and the execs at GM are just playing “who has the bigger d**K”.

    We really don’t need one all powerful rating number, as this vehicle has two distinct operational modes, battery powered electric, and then gasoline powered electric. So it would be nice for us, the people that will shell out between $40K and $50K for this car, to know what the functionality of those two modes are, don’t you think????

    It is a shame that the first buyers will be the reporters on what should be very simple numbers released by GM in advance.

    After the pricing fiasco, I guess this is not really a surprise………….

    I really like the car. GM management at this point, not so much.

    JMHO


  10. 10
    ClarksonCote

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:51 am)

    taser54: I still think that the volt has a 6 gallon tank. Why? Because back in the design phase the engineers said that they would have to have two tanks if it went over 6 gallons and that added complexity to the design.I’ve read the Consumer Reports post about a 9 gallon “tank” (note the singular), but I’m still going to wait and see. A 6 gallon tank with a 300 mile range would give us 50 mpg HWY in CS mode.  (Quote)

    The reason I think this isn’t the case is because 50MPG would be something they would love to announce. This is a great number when you’re not using electricity. At some point we’ll know the official tank size, and we can extract the MPG from that since we know they continue to advertise an “up to 340 mile” range.

    Side Note: Lyle, the Google ads at the bottom of the screen have been real annoying lately. They go to the advertised website just with a mouse over, and clicking any “Quote” link conveniently puts your mouse over the ad. Actually, it seems like it’s the clicking of the Quote link combined with the ad being there, but I’m 100% certain I’m not clicking on the ad. The last couple days I’ve had to try numerous times to get myself successfully typing in the comments box without being kicked to another site.

    join thE REVolution


  11. 11
    JohnK

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:54 am)

    I would not mind volunteering, but a few problems:
    1) Mine does not arrive until March
    2) It will be hard to maintain good discipline and drive several hundred miles without charging.


  12. 12
    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:55 am)

    Does anyone know if the Leaf has an MPG rating (MPC) by the EPA yet?


  13. 13
    Carcus

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:01 am)

    What a joke.


  14. 14
    Zach

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:07 am)

    1. Electric only miles per charge HWY
    2. Electric only miles per charge CITY
    3. Charge sustaining (using ICE generator) miles per gallon HWY
    4. Charge sustaining (using ICE generator) miles per gallon CITY

    Too easy.


  15. 15
    Carcus

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:09 am)

    Might be even worse than I thought.

    If the number comes out in the twenties I’m thinking GM’s going to have a real “media stink bomb” on their hands.


  16. 16
    nasaman

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:13 am)

    ATTN GM: Chelsea Sexton was recently loaned a LEAF for a full day and wrote an interesting test review on it. Why not have a fully-charged Volt filled with gas run on a dynamometer at pre-selected speeds and record the mpg registered by the car’s computer itself at arbitrary distances such as the following:

    MI MPG MPH
    10 —— ——
    20 —— ——
    30 —— ——
    40 —— ——
    50 —— ——
    60 —— ——
    70 -etc -etc
    80
    90
    100
    125
    150
    175
    200
    225
    250
    275
    300
    325
    350 (or to empty tank)

    Note that anyone who has the use of a Volt for 24hrs could approximate & publish the results of this test by simply recording the Volt’s displayed mpg & speed (using cruise control on a closed course) — if I were GM I’d consider having the dyno-controlled test like I’m suggesting done asap and release the results to the press.


  17. 17
    StevenU

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:13 am)

    While in theory, a straight CS number appears simple to calculate, it may not be. I do not know the specifics of how the current city/highway numbers are calculated but consider a few points about our beloved Volt:

    1. The generator does not directly power the wheels. Do we know if the generator will keep generating power at a stop thus lowering the MPG?

    2. The regenerative braking system. Is it possible that in certain instances, the battery will be recharged enough to start powering the wheels thus raising the MPG?

    Just run all cars in a wind tunnel at a constant speed (60 MPH, 60 MPH wind) for x hours or miles to get a highway number. Same idea in some set cycle of stop and go for a city number. Same could be done for BEV’s to get a range number, MBS (miles before stranding).

    EDIT: OK I see several others had similar ideas while I was posting :)


  18. 18
    flmark

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:20 am)

    On the day the bubble burst for many here, I was lambasted for criticizing someone’s self indulgence using a doomsday scenario. What I discussed later had to do with pure historical collapses, but I left out the environmental issues that some here deem superfluous. Well, yesterday, news was revealed of something much more serious than a disagreeable sale price. If you think global warming and the environment are not important reasons for getting us off oil, I hope you will start seeing things differently.

    The base of the food chain (plankton) is vanishing as we debate Volt’s purchase price
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38451744/ns/us_news-environment

    Previously, we learned that acidic ocean environments will cause animals with shells to stop reproducing
    http://www.newser.com/story/70941/acid-ocean-will-dissolve-sea-creatures-shells.html

    Then, on land, there is the mysterious die-off of the creature so necessary for our food supplies (the honey bee)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder

    And of course, with glaciers disappearing, the reliable fresh water drinking source for 40% of the world’s population will soon be gone
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_people_depend_on_glacial_melt_for_their_drinking_water

    The criticism of my comments labeled me a bleeding heart. This is almost laughable if one really knew anything about me. I was a naval officer and nuclear power instructor. I used to think the Greenpeace logo was something to actually set your ship’s heading toward and order “All Ahead Flank” (joking, here). However, recent news makes ignoring environmental issues sheer suicide. Cars, nationalities, trade- none of it matters if we have no water or food. Some idiot had the nerve to state that the real consequence of global warming was that the rich people would lose their waterfront property. My God!

    There is only so much one person can do and I am not suggesting anyone here to do any particular thing. But, at the very least, embrace that our home planet, the only one we’ve got, is giving us warning signs. Just because something sucks to think about doesn’t mean you can ignore it, or worse yet, argue against it. The average person here knows that the Earth holds twice as many people as it did when he/she was born. Bleeding heart, my a$$. It’s pure mathematics.

    Exponential population increase + collapse of sustenance=massive die-off
    (oh, and your 401K won’t be worth squat!)

    Quit fighting about Volt vs Leaf, or how much of your lifestyle you have to sacrifice due to purchase price. Please, look to do SOMETHING to make a difference- and suggest to others to do the same. Call me a preachy SOB if you want, but never label me a bleeding heart. As I said on that day, I am a pragmatist.

    “I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
    will be fought with sticks and stones.” – Albert Einstein


  19. 19
    zim wolfe

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:23 am)

    the ad dimension is overlaping the text and anyone who clicks on the link from the center left will get an add come up the first time you visit the site for the day. If you use firefox and download flashblock you can see the outside box size. Pretty sneaky ploy since it pretty much launches the ad when you want to read the new from gm-volt!

    ClarksonCote:
    The reason I think this isn’t the case is because 50MPG would be something they would love to announce.This is a great number when you’re not using electricity.At some point we’ll know the official tank size, and we can extract the MPG from that since we know they continue to advertise an “up to 340 mile” range.Side Note:Lyle, the Google ads at the bottom of the screen have been real annoying lately.They go to the advertised website just with a mouse over, and clicking any “Quote” link conveniently puts your mouse over the ad.Actually, it seems like it’s the clicking of the Quote link combined with the ad being there, but I’m 100% certain I’m not clicking on the ad.The last couple days I’ve had to try numerous times to get myself successfully typing in the comments box without being kicked to another site.join thE REVolution  


  20. 20
    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:26 am)

    How about this for an example (GM can “plug in” whatever the CS mpg is) But simple math; 300 miles extended with 9 gallon tank says it is about 33mpg ;-)

    MPG
    EV Mode = Infinate
    CS Mode = 33 mpg

    EREV Mode = 110 mpg*

    *MPG base on typical user driving 12,000 mile per year. 70% or 8,400 miles in EV mode. 30% or 3,600 miles in CS mode will use 109 gallons of gas. 12,000 / 109 gallons = 110 mpg.

    Mileage may vary based on driving habits, weather conditions and your commitment to the environment and/or reducing the need for foreign oil.
    ;-)


  21. 21
    Sergey Brin

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:28 am)

    ClarksonCote: Side Note: Lyle, the Google ads at the bottom of the screen have been real annoying lately. They go to the advertised website just with a mouse over, and clicking any “Quote” link conveniently puts your mouse over the ad. Actually, it seems like it’s the clicking of the Quote link combined with the ad being there, but I’m 100% certain I’m not clicking on the ad. The last couple days I’ve had to try numerous times to get myself successfully typing in the comments box without being kicked to another site.join thE REVolution  (Quote)

    You’ve got to be kidding. How can you be so selfish?

    Dont you dare complain about the ads…you should all be clicking them all day long. Dont you know those ads are the only way Lyle gets income from his tireless 24 h/365 d effort to bring you the latest inside Volt information that you can quote and discuss.

    /rant off


  22. 22
    herm

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:29 am)

    The proper EPA hwy and city cycles test are done on a treadmill and the MPG is calculated by measuring the exhaust in the tailpipe.. the Volt would probably really confuse the machine, but if you ran it long enough you would eventually get a good number.

    The number that the media and owners will get will be totally different, it will consist of MPG on the hwy once the battery is depleted.. again if the test is long enough it will be accurate, but only if the drivers maintain a constant set speed. The EPA hwy cycles averages 48mph speed.


  23. 23
    kdawg

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:29 am)

    What is the MPG of the ICE in the Prius, or even the Plug in Prius.. just curious?


  24. 24
    Baltimore17

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:30 am)

    Sigh. Please forgive me the tone of the following, but I’m really, really frustrated by the lack of understanding on this topic.

    How many hundreds of posts on this subject have used the word “simple”? It’s not simple.

    Some poster a day or two ago wrote that he didn’t want to see any voodoo formulas. Sorry, but the Volt’s fuel economy is unlike EVERY other car that the public has EVER experienced. It’s NOT one number. It’s NOT two numbers. It ABSOLUTELY depends on how far you drive between charges. And it’s a continuous function of range where CS mode fuel consumption and battery range are inputs, not outputs.

    Sorry for the all caps frustration. I posted the formula twice but it really looks like the vast majority of Americans went through junior high school algebra classes with the mantra “I don’t see how I’ll ever need any of this stuff.” Well, this is where you need that stuff.

    If you can’t handle the math, then Rextado in post #6 had the best answer as to the Volt’s fuel economy: “Who cares the EPA-Number if you regular plug it in?” Because nobody but a flaming idiot will ever buy a Volt and experience the CS mode fuel economy by running it on petroleum forever. You want to run on petroleum forever? Buy a standard Prius or Jetta diesel!

    Sigh again. OK, rant off.

    PS: Yeah, Nasaman in post #14 gets it.


  25. 25
    kdawg

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:32 am)

    I would still like this official chart from GM. (note this is just something I threw together)

    voltmpg2.jpg


  26. 26
    zim wolfe

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:33 am)

    http://speed.pointroll.com/PointRoll/Media/Panels/Ford/700122/FLM_Owner Mike Row Video_728x90_pnl_72110_r04_fh.swf?PRCampID=35096&PRPubID=spcmednw&PRAdSize=728×90&PRFormat=EX
    for those users complaining about the advertising link opening:

    above is the flash text overlapping the top news link that is tricking users into opening the advertisers link upon first visit to the site notice the size.


  27. 27
    Carcus3

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:37 am)

    This is getting comical.


  28. 28
    Baltimore17

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    And kdawg in post #23 gets it. Except the Volt’s fuel economy is infinite, not capped, below the battery range.


  29. 29
    Charlie H

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:40 am)

    As others pointed out, the answer is simple and obvious… EV range plus CS mode mpg. Then any consumer can then understand how the car works for them.

    Somebody’s dragging their heels on this. Why? The EPA doesn’t care who sells what cars, so they have no reason to be obstructionist.

    Michigans Congresscritters worked double overtime shifts to tailor the tax credit specifically to the Volt (note that the credit maxes at 16kwh, rather than continuing the sliding scale all the way to the Leaf’s larger battery size). You don’t suppose the Michigan Congresscritters are on the job, again, bullying the EPA, do you? Noooo…. I’m sure that would never happen…


  30. 30
    E Salt

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:41 am)

    They kept PRICE and EPA MPG figures secret because they knew those numbers are detrimental to sales of the Volt.

    GM must really take the Americans as dumb fools that can be hoodwinked with ease. Hopefully enough people will realize all this deception and steer clear of this vehicle at all costs.

    The thing to do is be wise, use your brain, and get that LEAF at a very affordable price.

    - Evelyn Salt


  31. 31
    Mike A

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:41 am)

    GM
    Tell me 4 things. How far will it go with the heat on, AC on, and neither on before the generator kicks in, and what mileage does it get in generator mode.
    Thats all I need to make a decision.


  32. 32
    Dave K.

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:42 am)

    Words like “testing” “EPA” and “official” are not needed relay the CS MPG. Ask anyone at GM who performs test drives what kind of CS MPG they are getting.
    How many times have you spoken with your neighbor and asked, “What kind of MPG did you get on your trip to San Diego?”. Or, “Lot’s of traffic downtown each morning. How’s your MPG?”. GM needs to accept what the Volt gen 1 is capable of doing. Be up front with it. And either go with a lighter design in the future. Or a different form of ICE charge system. It’s okay to be up front and honest with car buyers. We want you to win long term.

    =D-Volt


  33. 33
    neutron

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:51 am)

    Baltimore17: Sigh.Please forgive me the tone of the following, but I’m really, really frustrated by the lack of understanding on this topic.How many hundreds of posts on this subject have used the word “simple”?It’s not simple.Some poster a day or two ago wrote that he didn’t want to see any voodoo formulas.Sorry, but the Volt’s fuel economy is unlike EVERY other car that the public has EVER experienced.It’s NOT one number.It’s NOT two numbers.It ABSOLUTELY depends on how far you drive between charges.And it’s a continuous function of range where CS mode fuel consumption and battery range are inputs, not outputs.Sorry for the all caps frustration.I posted the formula twice but it really looks like the vast majority of Americans went through junior high school algebra classes with the mantra “I don’t see how I’ll ever need any of this stuff.”Well, this is where you need that stuff.If you can’t handle the math, then Rextado in post #6 had the best answer as to the Volt’s fuel economy:“Who cares the EPA-Number if you regular plug it in?”Because nobody but a flaming idiot will ever buy a Volt and experience the CS mode fuel economy by running it on petroleum forever.You want to run on petroleum forever?Buy a standard Prius or Jetta diesel!Sigh again.OK, rant off.  

    One can make it as complicated at they want.

    But it is rather simple… for anyone that will use the car and needs to know miles per gallon for range.

    ** If charged you know you have 40 miles to start. Assuming the gas tank is full… When the generator comes on gas consumption is happening. Run the car for 200 miles. Refill the tank. Divide the gallons used into the 200 miles and you will have miles per gallon.

    That number is the only real number any driver cares about. It will let them know how far they can go on a tank between external charges of the battery.

    Any other stuff is for advertising.
    i.e. any combinations of mixing battery charge with ICE use or keeping battery charged and never using the ICE = no gas used for miles driven.


  34. 34
    joe

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:55 am)

    Brother of GM employee: Simply tell people this: EV range and mpg during CS mode, it is not that difficult. Why GM keep trying to hide this or trying to cook the numbers for ballyhoo? Answer is very simple: MPG during charge sustaining mode is about 35 mpg under normal driving conditions.They behave the same way as they did before Chapter 11, with all those said, we must appreciate GM engineers, you are the best, but the top managers are sh*t and will continue to ruin the company.  

    Let the EPA do it. If GM does it, they will be crucified again….like what happened last year with the 230 ratings.


  35. 35
    LazP

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:55 am)

    I have long been suggesting the use of a simple table based on daily charge and usage. Looks like this is what will emerge. The table needs to reflect the sweet spot for this car, which is driving no more than about 50 (30 to 60) miles a day with overnight recharge. In the two extreme driving cases; one much more than 60 miles per day and the other much less than 40 miles a day. The mileage will approach the mpg of ICE vehicle in the former case and a BEV in the latter. A typical customer will probably not want a Volt if his daily driving exceed a certain number of miles or will opt for a pure EV if his daily drive is much less than 40 miles a day.


  36. 36
    Rashiid Amul

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:56 am)

    Way off topic.

    Toyota has yet another recall:
    Toyota recalls 400,000 cars over steering issues
    http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/29/autos/toyota_recall/?iref=NS1


  37. 37
    joe

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:59 am)

    Jim I: This is just silly.The EPA and the execs at GM are just playing “who has the bigger d**K”.We really don’t need one all powerful rating number, as this vehicle has two distinct operational modes, battery powered electric, and then gasoline powered electric.So it would be nice for us, the people that will shell out between $40K and $50K for this car, to know what the functionality of those two modes are, don’t you think????It is a shame that the first buyers will be the reporters on what should be very simple numbers released by GM in advance.After the pricing fiasco, I guess this is not really a surprise………….I really like the car.GM management at this point, not so much.JMHO  

    The EPA is to blame, not GM. Put the blame where it belongs!


  38. 38
    Mark A

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:01 am)

    Why would I spend $41,000 on a car when I don’t know even the highway mpg in CS mode? Wouldn’t that factor into my calculations for the overall cost savings that would offset the price?


  39. 39
    LazP

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:02 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: How about this for an example (GM can “plug in” whatever the CS mpg is) But simple math; 300 miles extended with 9 gallon tank says it is about 33mpg MPG
    EV Mode = Infinate
    CS Mode=33 mpgEREV Mode = 110 mpg**MPG base on typical user driving 12,000 mile per year.70% or 8,400 miles in EV mode.30% or 3,600 miles in CS mode will use 109 gallons of gas.12,000 / 109 gallons = 110 mpg.
    Mileage may vary based on driving habits, weather conditions and your commitment to the environment and/or reducing the need for foreign oil.   

    I agree with this. Except if you base it on a yearly basis, then it needs to indicate an estimated number of charges. (365 charges per year.)


  40. 40
    joe

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:05 am)

    Rashiid Amul: Way off topic.Toyota has yet another recall:
    Toyota recalls 400,000 cars over steering issues
    http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/29/autos/toyota_recall/?iref=NS1  

    Toyota is the company who Consumer Reports has been bragging about for decades. Who helped Toyota get where they are at today? Consumer Reports. Would I ever buy a Toyota? Never! I seen too many of them have major problems, problems that were hidden from the public.


  41. 41
    ronr64

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:07 am)

    koz: Why not? How can they produce a chart showing fuel usage under varying situations without revealing this info? They can’t, so they may as well just state what the highway and city CS mode economy is via the current EPA standard. This is going to be derived by many of us and the media in 2 seconds anyway and knowing the media if one notable source makes a mistake it will be reported wrongly thousands if times afterwards (just ask Shirley Sherrod).When GM feels the time is right, they should absoutely release their CS mode estimates and they should do this before “real” test drives or other deriving info is released.  (Quote)

    Why not? you ask? Haven’t you ever heard of lawyers? No matter what number GM would release if it doesn’t match what the EPA eventually comes out with then here comes the lawyers and their class action lawsuits.


  42. 42
    Billy Bob

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:09 am)

    FLMark #16, that was a good post. This is a bit ironic though. The “Father” of the Volt, Bob Lutz doesn’t believe in Global Warming. I believe in Global Warming. Hpwever, I don’t make the money like a lot of people on this site, state, country, or world… If I could afford either car, I would probably purchase the Leaf, a vast majority of the driving that I do is in town less than 40MPH. And keeping in mind, our community is less than 70k.

    So many things in our society is so screwed up, the average age of the young kids having sex is around the 7th grade, our prsident may not be legal to be in office, the upper-management at GM is missing a few marbles….. I don't want to go on, but where does it end?


  43. 43
    CorvetteGuy

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:17 am)

    Half of the customers will not believe the EPA numbers anyway, and the other half will swear Moses should carve them into stone tablets.

    I like the idea of a supplemental window sticker chart. One of the guys here had a good one started about a week ago. I smell another contest about to start! Best chart design gets 12 FREE Lease payments from General Motors.

    Okay…. GO!


  44. 44
    Dave K.

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:17 am)

    joe: Let the EPA do it. If GM does it, they will be crucified again….like what happened last year with the 230 ratings.

    GM kind of relays the CS MPG on their webpage. Up to 300 miles of extended range. Looks like this is all the consumer will know for now.

    =D-Volt


  45. 45
    Nelson

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:18 am)

    To whoever gets a Volt first: Please do the following MPG test.
    Park your Volt overnight with depleted battery and do not charge.
    Next day drive to local gas station near highway and fill up gas tank.
    Reset trip odometer.
    Drive on highway with windows closed and air conditioner on, 60 mph using cruise control until gas tank indicator drops a quarter of the tank.
    Record trip odometer reading and let us know what it is.
    This will tell us how many miles the car drove in CS mode on a quarter tank of gas.
    If GM is accurate about 300 miles on a full tank of gas, then you should have driven 75 miles.
    If the gas tank is 9 gallons, you will have used up, 2.25 gallons.
    75/2.25 = 33.33MPG
    I’m hoping GM was wrong about the 300 miles on a full tank of gas statement.
    Maybe they meant to say OVER 300 miles on a full tank of gas.
    Or
    Close to 360 highway miles on a full tank of gas.
    Let us know all the details too, like was it raining or did you encounter traffic and had to disengage cruise control.

    Why GM wont supply this information is very disconcerting.

    NPNS!


  46. 46
    Slave to OPEC

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:18 am)

    I’m under the impression the Volt will have a 9 gallon tank that allows for an additional 300 miles of driving distance.

    That’s 33.33 MPG in CS mode.


  47. 47
    joe

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:21 am)

    From nasaman on #14

    — if I were GM I’d consider having the dyno-controlled test like I’m suggesting done asap and release the results to the press.  

    ****************************************************

    GM has to step very carefully on this one. They do not want a repeat of the “230″ of last year. I think it is best to wait for the EPA to do their job. If they can not do it in time, then the fault will lie on the EPA.


  48. 48
    Jim in PA

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:21 am)

    Not only should GM list EV range and CS mpg values (that is so simple I can’t believe there is even a debate about it), but they should list EV efficiency in terms of mpKWH. Electric driving may be less polluting and less costly than gasoline driving, but it is NOT pollution-free or cost-free. Burning coal is a dirty process, and electricity costs money (especially if people start using commercial quick-charge stations).

    List EV range, list CS mpg, and list electrical efficiency on a per mile basis. That info will greatly empower the consumer. If electric vehicles ever do become the norm, I imagine some people will want to purchase the more efficient models just as they do with ICE cars and home appliances now.


  49. 49
    CorvetteGuy

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:25 am)

    kdawg: I would still like this official chart from GM.(note this is just something I threw together)  

    Hey! There it is! I posted my chart contest idea before seeing your repose of your chart. Now that is what I’m talking about.


  50. 50
    Charlie H

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:28 am)

    LazP: I have long been suggesting the use of a simple table based on daily charge and usage. Looks like this is what will emerge. The table needs to reflect the sweet spot for this car, which is driving no more than about 50 (30 to 60) miles a day with overnight recharge. In the two extreme driving cases; one much more than 60 miles per day and the other much less than 40 miles a day. The mileage will approach the mpg of ICE vehicle in the former case and a BEV in the latter. A typical customer will probably not want a Volt if his daily driving exceed a certain number of miles or will opt for a pure EV if his daily drive is much less than 40 miles a day.  (Quote)

    Tables are useless. Give me a function and I can plug in my own values.

    Further, when you say “(t)he mileage will approach the mpg of ICE vehicle,” the question is, “Which ICE vehicle?” An Excursion? Or a Yaris?

    joe: The EPA is to blame, not GM. Put the blame where it belongs!  (Quote)

    Baloney. GM is to blame. GM wants a triple digit EPA figure, will lobby whoever they must to get it and they don’t care how misleading it will be (review the 230mpg fiasco for proof of this). The EPA is perfectly willing to provide a function that would tell any customer what they can generally expect; it makes no difference to them whether GM sells Volts or Toyota sells Priuses. But it makes a great deal of difference to Michigans Congressional delegation.


  51. 51
    kdawg

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:28 am)

    Nelson: To whoever gets a Volt first: Please do the following MPG test.
    Park your Volt overnight with depleted battery and do not charge.
    Next day drive to local gas station near highway and fill up gas tank.
    Reset trip odometer.
    Drive on highway with windows closed and air conditioner on, 60 mph using cruise control until gas tank indicator drops a quarter of the tank.
    Record trip odometer reading and let us know what it is.
    This will tell us how many miles the car drove in CS mode on a quarter tank of gas.
    If GM is accurate about 300 miles on a full tank of gas, then you should have driven 75 miles.
    If the gas tank is 9 gallons, you will have used up, 2.25 gallons.
    75/2.25 = 33.33MPG
    I’m hoping GM was wrong about the 300 miles on a full tank of gas statement.
    Maybe they meant to say OVER 300 miles on a full tank of gas.
    Or
    Close to 360 highway miles on a full tank of gas.
    Let us know all the details too, like was it raining or did you encounter traffic and had to disengage cruise control.
    Why GM wont supply this information is very disconcerting.
    NPNS!

    That’s not typically how I calculate my MPG, because i dont trust the gas gauge. I say fill it up, drive for 200 miles in CS mode, then fill it up again. You will know how much gas you used by how much you can put back into the tank.

    Instead of depleting the battery, you could also just put it in Mountain Mode, to prevent the battery from being used.


  52. 52
    Nelson

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:31 am)

    nasaman: ATTN GM: Chelsea Sexton was recently loaned a LEAF for a full day and wrote an interesting test review on it. Why not have a fully-charged Volt filled with gas run on a dynamometer at pre-selected speeds and record the mpg registered by the car’s computer itself at arbitrary distances such as the following:MI MPG MPH10 —— ——20 —— ——30 —— ——40 —— ——50 —— ——60 —— ——70 -etc -etc8090100125150175200225250275300325350 (or to empty tank)Note that anyone who has the use of a Volt for 24hrs could approximate & publish the results of this test by simply recording the Volt’s displayed mpg & speed (using cruise control on a closed course) — if I were GM I’d consider having the dyno-controlled test like I’m suggesting done asap and release the results to the press.  (Quote)

    Dyno-Controlled tests results are always better then real world. No air drag or real road wheel drag to contend with.

    NPNS!


  53. 53
    Rashiid Amul

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:33 am)

    Slave to OPEC: I’m under the impression the Volt will have a 9 gallon tank that allows for an additional 300 miles of driving distance.That’s 33.33 MPG in CS mode.  

    This is what scares me.
    The ICE doesn’t have to do whole lot as I understand it.
    So I don’t understand why it is so low. I agree with your number, I just don’t understand why.
    Like the price, the answer to this question is going to sting as well I’m afraid.


  54. 54
    BigBird

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:34 am)

    What a joke.

    GM knows how well their cars will do in crash tests well before the NHTSA releases it. Same goes for fuel economy. These test aren’t secret. The car manufactures know them so they can test each car and determine the best way to build in fuel saving and safety enhancing design.

    Yes the EPA can’t move fast enough on this, sure thats a given, but GM can release MPG in CS mode by using the current test in CS mode. Not rocket science…

    How many Kw per mile in electric ??
    How many gallons per mile in CS mode ??

    I’m starting to get a bit of a bad taste from GM. They can’t even come clean with the tank size? Now they tell me the VOLT is going to cost WAY WAY more than it should? Things have changed since Bob left…


  55. 55
    BigBird

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:47 am)

    One more thing while I’m on my rant…
    (I missed getting one in 500+ comments on the 27th)

    $16,000 Cruz
    -$1,000 Cruz transmission and other parts
    +$10,000 Battery
    +$4,000 Two mode gen/traction motor
    +$3,000 Control Electronics
    +$4,000 Other
    =$36,000

    $41,000?? Are we paying $5,000 towards R&D? If you can do a Cruz for 16k then an additional 21k should be MORE than enough for the electric side of the car. Hell the VOLT is two cars in one, yeah I got that, but this is silly.


  56. 56
    lousloot

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:55 am)

    mpg: How would anyone plan their Vegas trip without knowing CS MPG?

    I suppose you would have to assume 40mpg and have extra for CRAPS!

    33 mpg -shudder–

    For those saying it doesn’t matter — pfffT!!


  57. 57
    LazP

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:58 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Half of the customers will not believe the EPA numbers anyway, and the other half will swear Moses should carve them into stone tablets.
    I like the idea of a supplemental window sticker chart. One of the guys here had a good one started about a week ago. I smell another contest about to start! Best chart design gets 12 FREE Lease payments from General Motors.
    Okay…. GO!  

    This is very simple concept based on ONE overnight daily charge:

    If your drive is less then 40 miles per day your mileage is:
    If your drive is between 40 to 60 miles per day your mileage is:
    If your drive is 100 miles or more then it will be the mileage of an ICE.
    (Of course we do not know what that mileage is yet.)
    A daily base calculation then can be converted to yearly use.
    A small table like this would tell the customers the suitability of this car for their needs.

    Just as an added note. Daily charge provides 14600 miles of yearly gas free driving if under 40 miles per day driving should be included in the table.


  58. 58
    carcus3

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    Rashiid Amul: So I don’t understand why it is so low. I agree with your number, I just don’t understand why.

    Really ? Wow.

    How many posts have I put up explaining this?

    Are you new to this site?


  59. 59
    Dave K.

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    BigBird: can’t even come clean

    GM is a very large company. At my workplace of a few thousand employees we require tutorials and classes on how to complete simple questionnaires. We are often not allowed to answer simple questions as “they must be handled by Mr. Dayshiftguy after 10AM”. We are often assumed as doing wrong or as guilty of something unless we can show evidence otherwise.

    This partially explains why the parade of GM employees who have been interviewed here at gm volt dot com come across as vague and double speaking. It’s how things are in a very large company.

    With this said. Someone at GM (maybe an engineer) should simply provide unofficial test numbers. Example: On a long freeway incline we experience 30-33 MPG. Long flat runs at 45 mph yeild 44 MPG. On our Freedom Drive from Austin to DC we achieved 50MPG overall.

    The Volt is a very special vehicle. The first of many EREV to follow. And whatever we wish it to be. It still is what it is. The delivery date is known, December 2010. The first year manufacturing numbers are known, 10k. If the CS MPG averages just 35 there are easily 10,000 buyers for this very special first year vehicle. Even at over $40k MSRP.

    =D-Volt


  60. 60
    N Riley

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:05 am)

    Actually, I could care less about MPG as long as it gets better than 25 MPG in CS mode. And that figure is just a number chosen for the purpose of stating one. I expect to do 95% to 99% of my driving the Volt (assuming, of course, that I ever buy one) on battery power only.


  61. 61
    Rashiid Amul

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:11 am)

    carcus3:
    Really ?Wow.How many posts have I put up explaining this?Are you new to this site?  

    Ya, sorry. I usually skip yours.
    Way too much ranker for me to bother reading.
    Sorry.


  62. 62
    Nick D

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:15 am)

    Slave to OPEC: I’m under the impression the Volt will have a 9 gallon tank that allows for an additional 300 miles of driving distance.That’s 33.33 MPG in CS mode.  (Quote)

    9 Gallon Tank and 300 mile range does not equal 300 / 9…

    You do not drive until your gas runs out, on top of that your car will tell you it needs gas prior to running out. Consider a 15% buffer (typical in most cars) 9 *.85 = 7.65 Gallons Used.

    300 / 7.65 = 39.21 MPG in Charge Sustaining Mode

    I would expect close to 40 MPG since this is what the cruize is said to get as well as many other cars with simmilar engine sizes. Yes the volt is heavier, but the ICE is optimized for efficeincy using the battery as the pulse and burst buffer. This engine will not be revved for power to move the vehicle.


  63. 63
    KUD

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:18 am)

    When Ford announced the Fusion Hybrid they said we expect a rating of 39MPG. EPA came out with 41. So why can’t GM re;ease a very conservative number. I am afraid it is because CS mode is as lousy as ED’s comfortably under 30k.

    On to another problem of mine …. My Dealer called yesterday to come in and order my VOLT. I am supposed to be number 9 on the list. Either he gets more Volts then I expected or a bunch of people canceled after the price announcement. And I am still not sure how I feel about 41K. I know there is a Fed and State rebate. But Rebate means after the Sale or in other Words I still Finance 41K. And in my case the Lease is a non starter.


  64. 64
    Steve

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:19 am)

    Until they decide one something new, the EPA should just run the highway and city test with the car charged up and tell us the kilowatt-hour consumption. Then they can repeat the the test with the charge depleted and report the fuel consumption. Anyone with brains can do the math from there. I think one of the issues the EPA has is how much time it takes to do the testing. Well right now there aren’t a great number of model like this to test. They should do their job and publish the results.


  65. 65
    Shawn Marshall

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:19 am)

    The price was a disappointment.
    If the Volt does about 35 mpg in CS mode it would further explain the low production targets.
    It would hurt the EREV approach and make Prius look a lot better to Greeniacs. Especially as it seems Toyota can simply add battery capacity to their design incrementally as batteries improve.

    I guess we can still hope that GM is holding the CS mpg close for a big splash but the 9 gallon tank seems contra-indicative. If it is around 35, it makes the Volt essentially a commuter, not really suited for longer ranges, except for occasional trips. It would also be a boost to BEVs in my poor opinion, especially for two car families. I think that’s a lot of people at ~25K (with tax rebate) and not so much at 33k.


  66. 66
    Ray

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:24 am)

    2011 Ford Fusion Hybrid with all the options $ 39,700 Canadian
    Employee discount, rebate on dealer prep brings the price down to $ 35,900
    That is for a FULLY LOADED FUSION HYBRID
    Spec sheet shows 50 MPG (US) in town and 43 MPG (US) Highway
    Thats 61 MPG Canadian in town and 52 MPG Canadian Highway

    My 2010 Fusion Hybrid (not quite fully loaded) cost $ 33,800

    My LIFETIME average (combined city and highway) is 5.3 L/100 KMS
    and it includes our cold winter here in Central Alberta Canada, traffic jams and “normal” real world driving conditions.

    Thats about 43.5 MPG (US) and 52.5 MPG Canadian.

    Enough said….

    Let’s walk on down to your Ford Dealership and take a look at the Fusion Hybrid.

    Please note: I am waiting for Gen III as no Volts will get here before 2014 or ???


  67. 67
    BLDude

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:25 am)

    With 5 years of OnStar included in the price of the Volt, a value-added feature for Volt users (and the general public) could be an on-going study using gas useage and mileage information uploaded from each Volt vehicle and grouped together showing an average MPG equivalent from all 10,000 cars sold in the 1st year and registered to individual owners. It would be crowd sourcing real-use data. That would be a first for any type of car. This data could be made public by Chevrolet – no need to keep it all a big secret.

    If Volt buyers are not willing to participate, they could choose to opt-out of the study. The information could also be broken down by geographic location (cold weather vs. hot weather vs. mild weather regions) or by the amount of miles driven daily (light users vs. long distance drivers).

    Who needs the EPA to figure this all out? Not the Volt!


  68. 68
    N Riley

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:32 am)

    Well, I have to admit the Leaf’s price versus the Volt’s price makes the Leaf look good for a second car. I suspect it will appeal to many families for a commuter car and one to run around town in for the weekends. It would fit my life style for that very purpose and save me $8,200 up front. I have a mini-van, a sedan and a truck now. So, I am used to a multi-vehicle situation. There are two drivers at my house – myself and my wife. She sometimes will drive in excess of 100 miles just running errands around town during the week. The Volt would suit her or me, but price will cause me to consider the Leaf. I am in a wait and see attitude at this point. It may depend on which vehicle becomes available for sale in my area first. I am on a Volt wait list with a large GM dealer locally, but have not signed up for the Leaf’s wait list. But, I might.


  69. 69
    Tom

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:36 am)

    kdawg: What is the MPG of the ICE in the Prius, or even the Plug in Prius.. just curious?  

    I have been driving one from MY 2004 and my findings are based on recording mileage and buying gas not looking at the display . Summer with air off 51.2 mpg with a high of 58.8 and a low of 46.3. the air costs 3 mpg on the highway and 9.3 city.
    Winter 43.2 with a high of 46.8 and a low of 34.7 with the heat on .This is driveing 2 different prisus the 1st one consistently got 4 mpg better than the 2nd one. These #s are a mix of city and highway and 95,550 miles.
    Tom


  70. 70
    Roy H

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:38 am)

    flmark: Exponential population increase + collapse of sustenance=massive die-off
    (oh, and your 401K won’t be worth squat!)

    “I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV
    will be fought with sticks and stones.” – Albert Einstein  

    +1
    Didn’t want to copy the whole thing, but thanks for all the links. I know this is OT but it is important. What bothers me most is that I believe we have all the tools necessary to solve our problems, but there is no political will to proceed. The people in control are extremely wealthy and they are more concerned about maintaining their obscene income then saving the planet. During the last 3 years the world’s billionaires averages 27% increase in wealth per year. Think about it, if the working class has less money, where did it go? There are notable exceptions of billionaires who contribute a lot back to society, but in general if as the richer get richer, the poorer get poorer. There needs to be more balance. Governments are supposed to provide this balance by higher taxes on the rich. The very rich should pay more taxes.

    We absolutely need to stop pollution. Oil is a wonderful substance, great for plastics, synthetics, lubrication. The most wasteful thing you can do with oil is burn it.

    Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors were invented in the 1960s at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. They ran one for almost 5 years. LFTRs use cheap thorium, are inherently safe, do not produce long term radio-active waste and were abandoned because they are not suitable for making bombs. See:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk
    and
    http://energyfromthorium.com/
    Although the principles are proven, there is still some research required for the best materials to have long 50 year plus life. This should be our highest priority to solve our energy and pollution problems.

    LFTRs can power big ships, provide heat to extract oil from tar sands, be used to de-salinate sea water and power all the world with electricity at a lower cost than anything except hydro power, yes cheaper than coal. Replacing a coal power plant with LFTRs is an ideal location and the typical coal power plant has enough thorium in the coal ash tailings to power the LFTRs for a hundred years. Thorium is readily available world wide so no country will have to import it.

    All industry and homes that use natural gas or oil can convert to electric heat and power.
    Trains can be electrified as many are already in Europe.
    Only aircraft and rockets will require liquid fuel.

    Our banking system was invented by bankers for the benefit of bankers. Giving banks the right to loan 9 times their assets is just giving them money. Controlling inflation by interest rates is putting the onus on the working poor. In order to reduce inflation they increase interest rates, thus giving banks and the wealthy more money and taking it from the working poor who are in debt. The proper way to control inflation is by controlling the money supply, law of supply and demand. Printing money, giving it to banks, and then borrowing it back with interest is insane. Governments the world over need to take control of their own money system. Proper inflation control would be by governments printing the correct amount of money to maintain inflation at a rate decided by the government. The government should use this money to directly pay its employees and not give it to the banks.

    Stock markets are a wonderful way for business to raise capital, but the stock market is now much more than that, it is a way for the savvy to take money from casual investors. Computers have allowed trades in seconds and many take advantage of short term ups and downs of the market. Where does this money come from? It comes from the investors who do not play this high-speed game. This time from the middle to upper working class who buy stocks as a long term investment. In the case of commodities this stock market manipulation results in higher prices of the commodity which we all pay. These stock manipulators do not bring any benefit to society, farmers produce food, truckers deliver it, sales people help us buy, artists entertain, manufacturers make products. What do these stock manipulators do? Just take money, they are parasites. To bring stability (and faith) back to the stock market we should enact a 100 day rule, where any stock purchased cannot be sold for 100 days.

    Patents should not be used to prevent progress. Some patents are bought and shelved to keep competition away. Patents should have a “use it or loose it” clause with competitors able to challenge through courts for court mandated royalty rates.

    We need much stronger laws regarding pesticides, and farmers have to learn to control pests in a more natural way.

    It is possible to have a much better world. We can solve our financial and pollution problems. With these solved it will be easier to solve world poverty, educate the poorer countries about the necessity to be responsible about birth control. Wealthier countries already have zero or negative population growth. If everybody’s standard of living is brought up to acceptable levels, there will be much less desire for war.

    All this can be done. The question is how? Why not? Will our grand children hate us or love us?


  71. 71
    jeffhre

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:39 am)

    BigBird: One more thing while I’m on my rant…
    (I missed getting one in 500+ comments on the 27th)$16,000 Cruz
    -$1,000 Cruz transmission and other parts
    +$10,000 Battery
    +$4,000 Two mode gen/traction motor
    +$3,000 Control Electronics
    +$4,000 Other
    =$36,000$41,000?? Are we paying $5,000 towards R&D? If you can do a Cruz for 16k then an additional 21k should be MORE than enough for the electric side of the car. Hell the VOLT is two cars in one, yeah I got that, but this is silly.  

    Hundreds of thousands of Cruzes have been sold before a single consumer vehicle hits the US streets.

    The Volt may see several generations and may not even be called the Volt, or could be discontinued for a re-engineered low cost version before those numbers are reached. There is a whole heck of a lot of development cost to be amortized before you can compare the Cruze with a Volt for cost. And development costs are continuing even with the small numbers planned for production.

    The irony is the Cruze sells enough to warrant a huge development budget and will only require a few updating tweaks going forward, vs. the absolute requirement to quickly field entirely new generations of Volts to be paid for from zero sold to date, and a much smaller base going forward after customer sales start.

    …If a high end Cruze is about 26,000 dollars, add in your 13K Volt parts/battery charges and a destination fee. I’m not an expert but…


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:39 am)

    Rashiid Amul: So I don’t understand why it is so low. I agree with your number, I just don’t understand why.
    Like the price, the answer to this question is going to sting as well I’m afraid. 

    Think of it this way: The most direct and therefore efficient way of driving the car would be to have the engine turn the wheels. Sort of Mechanical –> Mechanical. The Volt takes an indirect way of having the engine create electricity which then is fed to a motor which turns the wheels, so you have Mechanical –>Electrical –> Mechanical. Since you have losses every time you do a conversion you have losses, more conversions mean less efficiency and a lower MPG.


  73. 73
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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:42 am)

    Food fight.
    Almost anyone “believes” we are in a global warming period. The question is whether it is caused by man and his activities. It is highly unlikely that global warming is caused by carbon dioxide emissions. Please consult the following link before you start the vicious attacks with all your airs of moral and intellectual superiority.
    http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html

    If you are able, you can calculate what 380 parts per million amounts to as a blanket around the earth or get yourself some perspective by calculating how much area 380 ppm occupies on an 8-1/2 by 11 sheet of paper. These are both pretty easy to do but if you can’t do them yourself, you may not realize what they mean. If you can’t do things like that to get some perspective, you’ll be at the mercy of the emotional charlatans like Al Gore. Mr. Gore has no scientific training and I’m willing to bet he could not perform either of the above exercises.
    And I’ll pose this question – If global warming is man made and it is not caused by CO2, what good comes from spending countless billions to eliminate it while the “true” causes go undetected and unabated?
    I’m an electric car fan and a nuclear power fan and a solar cell fan – but for what I feel are practical concerns, not overreactions to bogus scientific claims which abound in this age as they have in every other. Hugo Chavez is reason enough for me to like the electric car idea.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:44 am)

    Back to subject at hand. I believe that GM suffered such a backlash about the 230mpg figure that they have simply decided not to publish any figures. Let the EPA do it. I am sure they have done all the tests and have all the numbers, but whatever they publish, “your mileage may vary” and they could be put down for it.

    Since they have announced the use of premium fuel I feel confident that, with premium fuel the CS mode will be 50mpg or higher. Equivalent to 40mpg with regular cost wise.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:48 am)

    DonC:
    Think of it this way: The most direct and therefore efficient way of driving the car would be to have the engine turn the wheels. Sort of Mechanical –> Mechanical. The Volt takes an indirect way of having the engine create electricity which then is fed to a motor which turns the wheels, so you have Mechanical –>Electrical –> Mechanical. Since you have losses every time you do a conversion you have losses, more conversions mean less efficiency and a lower MPG.  

    This would only be true if the engine had the same efficiency at all rpm. Fact is engines have a “sweet spot” and that is exactly why 6 and now 8 speed transmissions are popular. The Electric drive acts as an infinitely variable transmission.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:50 am)

    Rashiid Amul: The wheels of government move at a snails pace.

    This isn’t exactly the government. The J1772 standards committee, which isn’t a governmental body, has been at it for years and only approved a proposed standard a couple of weeks ago. So it’s not so much about the government moving slow as it is trying to get private companies with different economic interests on to the same page. Like herding cats?

    On the other hand, the end result is usually solid. It could definitely be faster if the government just decreed the standard but you probably wouldn’t like the result.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:55 am)

    #68 Roy H:

    Some how I don’t see anything changing with the way the country is going today. It will take a massive emergency situation to force change. Those with power are not wont to give it up. That includes the so-called rich power brokers, the government bureaucrats and the politicians to name just a few groups.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:57 am)

    Charlie H: Somebody’s dragging their heels on this. Why? The EPA doesn’t care who sells what cars, so they have no reason to be obstructionist.

    Have you ever worked with a government agency? Believe me, they don’t need anyone to lean on them to take a long time working out how to do something new.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:57 am)

    Baltimore17: EV Mode = Infinate
    CS Mode

    It is simple just post 3 numbers:

    EV Mode = 40miles
    CS Mode Highway = ?
    CS Mode City = ?


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    BLDude

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:59 am)

    Just a thought: I wish there was a word limit on each comment for this web site. Some of these posts are too friggin long to sit and read. And the point-counter point is tiresome.

    I know, I know: I can skip what I don’t want to read. I get that! But a question for those who write long, windy posts: do you think anybody wants to read all that? I think I’ll start awarding -1′s to each post that goes over say 200 words.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:00 am)

    LazP: A typical customer will probably not want a Volt if his daily driving exceed a certain number of miles or will opt for a pure EV if his daily drive is much less than 40 miles a day.  

    The Volt is a pure EV if your daily drive is less than 40 miles a day, so your comment doesn’t make sense to me. An EV like the Leaf would make sense if your daily drive is over 40 but safely under the Leaf’s 100 mile limit. Though really the point of an EREV is less about your daily drive and more about how you answer “do you ever intend on driving this car more than 100 miles a day?”

    I don’t want to be constrained by the 100 mile Leaf limit myself even though I rarely drive more than it’s limit. But I do make that sort of drive a couple times a year and I don’t want to have to switch cars to do it. With a Volt 90% or more of my driving would be electric so the CS MPG isn’t really that important.

    However I fear a lot of people are going to get hung up on that CS MPG figure, whatever it is. All the charts in the world won’t help numerically disinclined. We’ll hear “the first 40 miles electric is nice but less than 50 MPG isn’t good enough, I’ll just buy a Prius since I have a 45 mile round trip commute”. Maybe they’ll get it once they start hearing from neighbors with similar commutes that only buy gas for their Volt every couple of months when the have a long trip to make.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    nasaman: ATTN GM: Chelsea Sexton was recently loaned a LEAF for a full day and wrote an interesting test review on it.

    Chelsea did write an interesting article on Leaf – but she didn’t have a full day. She had the normal 1/2 hour or so like others did.

    Getting back to OP, there is no way Volt can give a lot of details about range etc without us easily deriving the cs mpg. Anyway, everyone now thinks it is not great and thats why GM is hiding it. Just the way they delayed price announcement.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:07 am)

    Nick D: 9 Gallon Tank and 300 mile range does not equal 300 / 9…You do not drive until your gas runs out, on top of that your car will tell you it needs gas prior to running out. Consider a 15% buffer (typical in most cars) 9 *.85 = 7.65 Gallons Used.300 / 7.65 = 39.21 MPG in Charge Sustaining ModeI would expect close to 40 MPG since this is what the cruize is said to get as well as many other cars with simmilar engine sizes. Yes the volt is heavier, but the ICE is optimized for efficeincy using the battery as the pulse and burst buffer. This engine will not be revved for power to move the vehicle.  (Quote)

    Dream on. NO Detroit manufacturer has EVER published a range figure that left a reserve in the tank.

    And, when conditions are right, Detroit loves them some range figures! When gas prices went up and gas lines began, Detroit’s super-sized tanks made for some great range figures on cars with mediocre mileage. So the range figures were plastered in giant type across the top of the ad and the mediocre mileage ratings were in a footnote.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:08 am)

    neutron: One can make it as complicated at they want.
    But it is rather simple… for anyone that will use the car and needs to know miles per gallon for range.
    ** If charged you know you have 40 miles to start. Assuming the gas tank is full… When the generator comes on gas consumption is happening. Run the car for 200 miles. Refill the tank. Divide the gallons used into the 200 miles and you will have miles per gallon.
    That number is the only real number any driver cares about. It will let them know how far they can go on a tank between external charges of the battery.
    Any other stuff is for advertising.
    i.e. any combinations of mixing battery charge with ICE use or keeping battery charged and never using the ICE = no gas used for miles driven.  

    This is exactly what I mean by an inability to understand the Volt’s fuel economy. The method cited only gives the Volt’s fuel economy AT EXACTLY 200 MILES. “Rather simple” but useless to the person who drives 150 miles and then recharges. Or to the person who drives 100 miles and recharges. Or to the person who drives 50 miles and recharges. THE NUMBERS WILL ALL BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE VOLT IS AN ELECTRIC CAR THAT USES ZERO FUEL FOR THE FIRST MILES TRAVELED AFTER RECHARGE.

    “One can make it as complicated at they want”. An exact answer to “what is the Volt’s mileage” is not complicated at all — to someone who paid attention in algebra class.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:09 am)

    joe: Let the EPA do it. If GM does it, they will be crucified again….like what happened last year with the 230 ratings.

    Agreed. (And +1) I’m at a loss for why people are annoyed with GM that the EPA is taking their time. Yes. GM could release a figure. But that’s won’t be the one that the EPA uses. And that’s the one that people are waiting for. It’s like getting annoyed with Amgen that the FDA is taking a long time to approve denosumab. Do people really want GM to hold up the launch until the EPA comes up with a figure?


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:09 am)

    Rashiid Amul: The wheels of government move at a snails pace.

    True – but in this case you are blaming the wrong group. Just look at SAE – they are taking forever to decide on level 3 standard. Level 1-3 they would have taken FIVE years to decide.

    BTW, all large organizations take a long time to decide – they just aren’t agile. Whether they be government or corporate. This is my experience working in large and small companies the past couple of decades.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:12 am)

    Sergey Brin: You’ve got to be kidding. How can you be so selfish?Dont you dare complain about the ads…you should all be clicking them all day long. Dont you know those ads are the only way Lyle gets income from his tireless 24 h/365 d effort to bring you the latest inside Volt information that you can quote and discuss./rant off  (Quote)

    Are you for real?

    “Hey Lyle, the placement of the ads might prevent users from being able to post comments on the blog you’ve created for everyone to post comments.” Wow, how rude of me.

    If I literally cannot post a comment because the combination of an ad and clicking the Quote link on someone’s post kicks me off this site, how do you expect me to react? Each time I click back and try it again, the same thing happens.

    Bringing it to Lyle’s attention that the particular placement may create this bug seems quite reasonable, and I certainly wasn’t complaining about the ads themselves.

    On a side note, for some reason installing Adobe Flash as an add-in seems to have fixed the problem.

    join thE REVolution


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:12 am)

    Roy H: Back to subject at hand. I believe that GM suffered such a backlash about the 230mpg figure that they have simply decided not to publish any figures. Let the EPA do it. I am sure they have done all the tests and have all the numbers, but whatever they publish, “your mileage may vary” and they could be put down for it.Since they have announced the use of premium fuel I feel confident that, with premium fuel the CS mode will be 50mpg or higher. Equivalent to 40mpg with regular cost wise.  (Quote)

    Interesting theory.

    Of course, if the CS mode mpg for the 3800lb Volt will be 50mpg, why not use the drivetrain in a car with a much smaller battery just to get the efficiency of that electric drivetrain? Losing a couple hundred pounds of weight would further improve the fuel economy and by shrinking the battery, GM would be able to offer a 5-seat car, rather than a 4-seat Volt, with more cargo space or maybe shrink the whole car to further improve the fuel economy. With a much smaller battery, the car would be easier to engineer and package.

    But… they aren’t doing that. I wonder why? Well, no, I don’t really, but I’m wondering if you’ll figure it out.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:14 am)

    LauraM: Have you ever worked with a government agency? Believe me, they don’t need anyone to lean on them to take a long time working out how to do something new.  (Quote)

    Yes, and they have the most trouble doing their jobs when Congressmen and lobbyists interfere.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:16 am)

    Roy H: This would only be true if the engine had the same efficiency at all rpm. Fact is engines have a “sweet spot” and that is exactly why 6 and now 8 speed transmissions are popular. The Electric drive acts as an infinitely variable transmission.  (Quote)

    Then why did GM tell us, some time ago, that they are going to run the engine at multiple different RPMs and workloads?


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:17 am)

    Shawn Marshall: It is highly unlikely that global warming is caused by carbon dioxide emissions. Please consult the following link before you start the vicious attacks with all your airs of moral and intellectual superiority.

    The problem is that you’re confused about what the editorial you’ve cited says. That greenhouse gases cause global warming is just a fact. It’s not open to question. Why do you think the earth is warmer than Mars? Mars gets the same amount of energy from the sun as the earth. So what gives? Green gases are what gives. Without greenhouse gases the temperature of the earth would be -4 degrees F (that’s 36 degrees F below freezing). Because of greenhouse gases the earths average temperature is 60 degrees F. So the 64 degrees F is the warming attributable to greenhouse gas emissions. This is what we’ve known for something like a hundred years.

    Since greenhouse gases increase the average temperature of the earth it’s not exactly a leap to figure out that adding more greenhouse gases increases the temperature more. Think of it like salt. Adding salt to water increases the boiling point so adding a lot of salt makes for water with a higher boiling point than if you added less salt.

    The big question isn’t whether activities that release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, it’s how large the effect will be. A planet is not a simple one dimensional system like a pot of water so it’s difficult to guess. It could be one degree, which would be no big deal. It could be ten degrees which would be a very big deal. Hard to say.

    The opinion piece you’ve cited actually relates to something entirely different — whether there may be other contravailing effects that will either swamp or cancel out the man made greenhouse effect. Greenhouse gases aren’t the only thing that effects global temperature changes. Volcanic eruptions or particulate pollution can lower the temperature by effectively reflecting the energy of the sun. Or, as this opinion notes, the sun itself can emit more or less energy. And if the sun were to emit less energy injecting more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere might even be a good thing. But that would require that we be able to predict what the sun is going to do, which at the moment we can’t.

    In a timely way, the lead article in the Financial Times today was that the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration released a new study done by a team of international scientists that finds the evidence supporting the thesis that man made greenhouse gases have increased global temperature to be “overwhelming”. As usual the study was immediately dismissed by paid lawyers for various business groups.

    It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:18 am)

    This just in from the Department of Transparency: Nissan Reports LEAF Range Will Vary From 47 to 138 Miles (12-Jun-2010).

    Note: The Department of Transparency was invented by GM after the EV1 fiasco, but made real by Nissan.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:20 am)

    zim wolfe: the ad dimension is overlaping the text and anyone who clicks on the link from the center left will get an add come up the first time you visit the site for the day. If you use firefox and download flashblock you can see the outside box size. Pretty sneaky ploy since it pretty much launches the ad when you want to read the new from gm-volt!  (Quote)

    Well, this problem was persistent every time I clicked on a Quote link, then having my mouse go over the ad. I think the problem is a combination of things. I use IE8 here at work, and installing Adobe Flash ‘fixed’ the problem, but I still get a Javascript error on the page. I’m already using compatibility mode to prevent some script from burning my CPU after posting a comment. Dang Internet Exploder…

    join thE REVolution


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:22 am)

    Charlie H:
    Interesting theory.Of course, if the CS mode mpg for the 3800lb Volt will be 50mpg, why not use the drivetrain in a car with a much smaller battery just to get the efficiency of that electric drivetrain?Losing a couple hundred pounds of weight would further improve the fuel economy and by shrinking the battery, GM would be able to offer a 5-seat car, rather than a 4-seat Volt, with more cargo space or maybe shrink the whole car to further improve the fuel economy.With a much smaller battery, the car would be easier to engineer and package.But… they aren’t doing that.I wonder why?Well, no, I don’t really, but I’m wondering if you’ll figure it out.  

    I am sure that is what they are doing. It is called the two-mode hybrid.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:22 am)

    If the CS fuel economy is bad, it works in GM’s favor to release the car without having to put a discouraging EPA sticker on the car. It would be a great tactic for them to obfuscate, lobby and delay.

    If the CS fuel economy is good, they’d have been more anxious to tell us how much fuel the vehicle used on the “Freedom Drive” than which tourist traps they visited. Checking back through the reports from the “Freedom Drive” I find tourist traps mentioned but no gas consumption.

    Draw your own conclusions…


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:23 am)

    Shawn Marshall: Almost anyone “believes” we are in a global warming period. The question is whether it is caused by man and his activities. It is highly unlikely that global warming is caused by carbon dioxide emissions. Please consult the following link before you start the vicious attacks with all your airs of moral and intellectual superiority.

    In that case, please explain to me why our wonderful federal highway authorities aren’t doing anything to prepare our infrastructure? That are a lot of possible changes that we need to be ready for. Thermal expansion of bridges, highways, and railways. Overloaded drainage systems, increased droughts, etc.

    There are a lot of things we can do to ameliorate the problem. But we aren’t even requiring new bridges to reflect possible climate change!

    “That means rethinking standards for design elements: For example, increase drainage capacity to accommodate storm surges; tie bridge decks more securely to the substructure to weather hurricanes; use more continuous welded rail lines to prevent heat deformities; and elevate bridges, streets and rail lines to adapt for changes in sea levels. Long-term, engineers should work toward developing heat-resistant materials and shallow-bottom vessels. ”

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/4254048


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:25 am)

    Charlie H:
    Then why did GM tell us, some time ago, that they are going to run the engine at multiple different RPMs and workloads?  

    I know, this puzzles me too. They were very concerned about noise and vibration, so decided to have two or more speeds. A compromise I am sure.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:26 am)

    Roy H: I am sure that is what they are doing. It is called the two-mode hybrid.  (Quote)

    How can I put this politely?

    Bzzt… Wrong. The two-mode has direct mechanical linkage from the ICE to the wheels.

    Also, the two-mode GMT900 ICE hybrids have VCM and better aerodynamics than the standard vehicle. These mods provide much of the improved fuel economy on the highway over the standard vehicle.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:30 am)

    Rashiid Amul: Ya, sorry. I usually skip yours.Way too much ranker for me to bother reading.Sorry.  (Quote)

    Rashiid, I smile as I write this, so don’t think I am nitpicking on spelling (we all screw up spelling). I expect that the word you wanted was ‘rancor’. To me this word sounds like it feels- harshly bitter- appropriately used here. However, as spelled, with the implication of smelling bad, seems to fit, too. Your desire to not engage folks who spew venom is good. I usually skip the posts where people banter over a post that seems purely intended to incite a reaction. As I wrote a couple days ago. Don’t worry. Be Happy. I know this seems to conflict with my #17 post here today, but an extrapolation might be- there is enough REAL crap to care about without getting caught up in the small stuff. As you quoted of me yesterday, “move on”. Your terse reply to this person’s sarcasm is what created my smile. I see that the ‘regular’ Rashiid is back after a momentary lapse :)


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:30 am)

    LauraM: In that case, please explain to me why our wonderful federal highway authorities aren’t doing anything to prepare our infrastructure

    The thing about global warming is that it’s slow. Since it’s slow people can’t see it. Now you’re asking them to expend time and money in order to avoid a problem they don’t see any evidence of. Hard for them to do. Think of a frog in water that is being slowly heated. Same result.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:32 am)

    Why so low, because it is still gas engine, unlike the Atkinson cycle Prius/Fusion engine, Chevy Volt use an engine with Otto cycle, it has more power per volume, but fuel economy really sucks. Why they use Otto cycle? because if they use Atkinson cycle, it will have to be 1.2L and it is still underpowered.

    Kudos to all GM engineers, we feel sorry for you for all the stress, hard work and love for the new auto technology, but this Volt will not be a success, and you know that, you guys are simply the best, and shame to that crappy Whitacre, he deserve nothing but shame!

    Chevy Volt is another illicit child f***d by GM top brass for ballyhoo, nothing else!!! That Bob Lutz deserved to be spitted on!

    All you GM top brass, please go to hell!!!!

    Rashiid Amul:
    This is what scares me.
    The ICE doesn’t have to do whole lot as I understand it.
    So I don’t understand why it is so low.I agree with your number, I just don’t understand why.
    Like the price, the answer to this question is going to sting as well I’m afraid.  


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:34 am)

    Charlie H: Bzzt… Wrong. The two-mode has direct mechanical linkage from the ICE to the wheels.

    Yes the two-mode has a direct linkage. The Volt would probably get better MPG if it used a direct linkage. But then it wouldn’t be an EV, would it? It would just be a serial hybrid like the plug-in Prius. Not a lot of excitement in that, so it was probably a better decision to go with the marketing message than with higher efficiency.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:37 am)

    EVNow: Anyway, everyone now thinks it is not great and thats why GM is hiding it.

    Not me. I think it will be great. And let the controvesy swirl. The Volt will be its own best defender — but only if enough people get to drive it.
    I do sincerely hope that GM makes enough available for test drives in the coming months.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:37 am)

    LauraM: In that case, please explain to me why our wonderful federal highway authorities aren’t doing anything to prepare our infrastructure? http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/4254048  (Quote)

    Congressional intransigence generated by fossil fuel lobbyists.

    And people just don’t care what may happen to their grandchildren enough to give up driving a gas hog and pay attention to the environment.

    For a significant part of the electorate, this may actually accelerate our reaching the “End Times,” and that’s a good thing because they’re all going to get sucked into Heaven and us sinners (who believe in Evil-Lution and the like) will be left behind to enjoy Armageddon.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:38 am)

    Tom: I have been driving one from MY 2004 and my findings are based on recording mileage and buying gas not looking at the display . Summer with air off 51.2 mpg with a high of 58.8 and a low of 46.3. the air costs 3 mpg on the highway and 9.3 city.
    Winter 43.2 with a high of 46.8 and a low of 34.7 with the heat on .This is driveing 2 different prisus the 1st one consistently got 4 mpg better than the 2nd one. These #s are a mix of city and highway and 95,550 miles.
    Tom

    I mean w/out the battery powering the car at all. I would like to know how the ICE performs in that size car w/those aerodyamics, etc. It would help me get an idea of the Volt’s efficiency and MPG. I know the Volt weighs more, that’s why it would probably be better to compare to the Plug in Prius, whenever we get that info.


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    BLIND GUY

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:38 am)

    Shawn Marshall Says
     
    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:19 am)

    The price was a disappointment.
    If the Volt does about 35 mpg in CS mode it would further explain the low production targets.
    It would hurt the EREV approach and make Prius look a lot better to Greeniacs. Especially as it seems Toyota can simply add battery capacity to their design
    incrementally as batteries improve.

    I guess we can still hope that GM is holding the CS mpg close for a big splash but the 9 gallon tank seems contra-indicative. If it is around 35, it makes
    the Volt essentially a commuter, not really suited for longer ranges, except for occasional trips. It would also be a boost to BEVs in my poor opinion,
    especially for two car families. I think that’s a lot of people at ~25K (with tax rebate) and not so much at 33k.  

    I agree, I was hoping the CS mpg was going to be 38 however I think GM even stated that the CS mpg would be about the same as a Corolla. Using the series hybrid approach is simply not the most efficient in this case. I’m very interested in what changes will be made for Gen. II & III. I’m sure the Volt is a fine car but we need something more affordable and no lease.


  107. 107
    jeffhre

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:40 am)

    neutron: One can make it as complicated at they want.

    No it’s not. You understan these things because you’re smart and you’ve been looking at them for years. Most people won’t have that background to help make their decisions.


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    Texas

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:41 am)

    I’m still sticking by my ~30 mpg at 70 mph continuous highway driving.

    I always get negatives but many of you are starting to realize I’m going to be right (or far closer than you estimate).

    Again, the EREV drivetrain is less efficient than a direct mechanical connection at highway speeds. When you driving at 70 mph a normal ICE car can be thought of as having a direct mechanical connection and the rpm is optimal. The EREV drivetrain must go though more energy transitions (gen – controller – electric motor – driveshaft). Therefore, it will be less efficient. Sorry. You can give me negative point, swear, jump around the room but you can’t just wish away the laws of physics.

    Once more, I claim this does not matter and that the Volt drivetrain is pure genius and will reduce the amount of gasoline used by most drivers by multiple amounts. If you are a big highway driver (long distance to work) then get an excellent diesel like a VW. Better yet, move close to work because the long suburb distance is going to be a killer after Peak Oil is recognized. Move closer to work and get a plug-in. Your welcome.


  109. 109
    shaun

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:45 am)

    Baltimore17:
    This is exactly what I mean by an inability to understand the Volt’s fuel economy.The method cited only gives the Volt’s fuel economy AT EXACTLY 200 MILES.“Rather simple” but useless to the person who drives 150 miles and then recharges.Or to the person who drives 100 miles and recharges.Or to the person who drives 50 miles and recharges.THE NUMBERS WILL ALL BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE THE VOLT IS AN ELECTRIC CAR THAT USES ZERO FUEL FOR THE FIRST MILES TRAVELED AFTER RECHARGE.“One can make it as complicated at they want”. An exact answer to “what is the Volt’s mileage” is not complicated at all — to someone who paid attention in algebra class.  

    can you explain how the gas mileage will be different if you drive 150, 100, 50 mile with CS mode? I think your having an inability to understand. If a person did several 200 mile drives without recharging and calculated gallons used by mile driven that will give you an average mpg when in CS mode. It doesn’t matter if you drive 5 or 500 miles you will get x number of mpg is cs mode.


  110. 110
    jeffhre

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:46 am)

    That sounds comprehensive as far as vehicle specs. But couldn’t all this would turn out to be a red herring for most drivers? Listing Volt gas mileage specifications, in the abstract, will actually tell you very little about how the car will perform in consumer hands.

    The Volt may require a new approach at a different scale. The mysterious GPY measure.

    Baltimore17: Sigh. Please forgive me the tone of the following, but I’m really, really frustrated by the lack of understanding on this topic.
    How many hundreds of posts on this subject have used the word “simple”? It’s not simple.
    Some poster a day or two ago wrote that he didn’t want to see any voodoo formulas. Sorry, but the Volt’s fuel economy is unlike EVERY other car that the public has EVER experienced. It’s NOT one number. It’s NOT two numbers. It ABSOLUTELY depends on how far you drive between charges. And it’s a continuous function of range where CS mode fuel consumption and battery range are inputs, not outputs.
    Sorry for the all caps frustration. I posted the formula twice but it really looks like the vast majority of Americans went through junior high school algebra classes with the mantra “I don’t see how I’ll ever need any of this stuff.” Well, this is where you need that stuff.
    If you can’t handle the math, then Rextado in post #6 had the best answer as to the Volt’s fuel economy: “Who cares the EPA-Number if you regular plug it in?” Because nobody but a flaming idiot will ever buy a Volt and experience the CS mode fuel economy by running it on petroleum forever. You want to run on petroleum forever? Buy a standard Prius or Jetta diesel!
    Sigh again. OK, rant off.
    PS: Yeah, Nasaman in post #14 gets it. 

    LOL and great points.

    I don’t know who may have said it earlier, but Dave G, solved it a few years ago, GPY. MPG does not work with this car. Make as many attempts to illustrate it as you like with miles per gallon. Top notch integration skills and some statistical sleuthing will help you build a picture that will confound and confuse everyone.

    Gallons per year is much easier to understand. Compare gallons consumed per year by make and model. Simple, easily understood – gallons per year.

    I believe I will need at most, about 38 gallons of gas a year. That alone makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

    I could go on and on about how I think that makes a huge difference. But I’ll just stop and say sorry for such a long comment to post.


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    Jim I

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:47 am)

    ClarksonCote:
    Well, this problem was persistent every time I clicked on a Quote link, then having my mouse go over the ad.I think the problem is a combination of things.I use IE8 here at work, and installing Adobe Flash ‘fixed’ the problem, but I still get a Javascript error on the page.I’m already using compatibility mode to prevent some script from burning my CPU after posting a comment.Dang Internet Exploder…join thE REVolution  

    ============================

    I had all kinds of problems on this site using I/E-8. It would lock up when I made a post, just freeze for no reason, and display errors, even after I installed the latest Adobe FLash updates.

    I switched over to FireFox, and have had no problems since.

    I do not know why, but it is only this site I had problems with…


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:48 am)

    Charlie H: Dream on. NO Detroit manufacturer has EVER published a range figure that left a reserve in the tank.And, when conditions are right, Detroit loves them some range figures! When gas prices went up and gas lines began, Detroit’s super-sized tanks made for some great range figures on cars with mediocre mileage. So the range figures were plastered in giant type across the top of the ad and the mediocre mileage ratings were in a footnote.  (Quote)

    I have never driven a vehicle GM or not that had a Range to Empty display that used the entire tank… The truth is we dont know all the details and to assume that the 300mi range consumes the entire volume of the 9 gallon tank is only speculation… Until we know for sure it is pointless to post an mpg with a simple 300/9


  113. 113
    Noel Park

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:53 am)

    Carcus: What a joke.

    #13

    Yup. 10-88. +1


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    Streetlight

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:54 am)

    Good for GM – not heeling to EPA’s incongruent policies. Now I’ve carped here about EPA’s having three years to think out a policy fitting VOLT. Nada.

    That’s because EPA has designated Argonne Lab to carry the EV evaluation ball. http://www.transportation.anl.gov/phev/ This page being absolutely outdated Nov 2009.

    …”Argonne National Laboratory, working together with Idaho National Laboratory, leads DOE’s efforts to evaluate PHEVs and PHEV technology with the nation’s best vehicle technology evaluation tools and expertise.”…

    But–Idaho National Lab. (INL) hasn’t published a PHEV report since 2008.

    So… there’s no VOLT EPA sticker.

    Prediction: We’ll see EEProm propulsion before EPA figures out how to get hold of itself.


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    LRGVProVolt

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:55 am)

    kdawg #24: I would still like this official chart from GM.(note this is just something I threw together)  

    Your right, GM didn’t produce this chart. YOU did! And is in clearly wrong to me.

    For the situations where drivers go 40 miles or less they will use an extremely small amount of gas; essential zero. Therefore, your graph should go to infinity at the y-axis of the chart for the MPG Fuel Economy. The green line should continue to rise for miles driven. No leveling off! Off course, I am Chinese (not); I’m reading from right to left, bottom to top. ;)

    If you post your chart again, I suggest you correct the error.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.

    P.S. My original guess for MPG fuel economy was closer to 60 but I, too, now believe (that the engineers, as stated, intended to use a six gallon tank) is what we will see. That means in CS mode, you would get 50 mpg: Note: The picture at beginning of this article shows 5.3 gal. That’s just another reason I think it will be six gallon tank.


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    Keith

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:58 am)

    Thank-You Ray for your post , I was just wondering what the Ford got in terms of mileage .
    There just are too many things that don’t seem right to me about the Volt to even consider it now .


  117. 117
    Nick D

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:00 am)

    kdawg: I mean w/out the battery powering the car at all. I would like to know how the ICE performs in that size car w/those aerodyamics, etc. It would help me get an idea of the Volt’s efficiency and MPG. I know the Volt weighs more, that’s why it would probably be better to compare to the Plug in Prius, whenever we get that info.  (Quote)

    For the Gen 2 Prius look at the Yaris, the echo, the Scion XA, and the 1gen Scion XB. Same engine was used so probably 30′s city low 40′s Hwy. Im not sure what the Gen 3 prius engine is also used in.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:00 am)

    I apologize…Edit for #108, related to nasaman’s comments. The top part is added the bottom is the same.

    JohnK: 2) It will be hard to maintain good discipline and drive several hundred miles

    without charging.  

    Does charging even make a difference with those CS mode make or break assumptions? Looks like a lot of folks feel that CS mode is that make or break issue? Is that really such a huge part of the Volt’s capabilities. Isn’t the Volt is a leapfrog exactly because of it’s ability to reduce, replace or eliminate the use of the onboard ICE. It’s a different “paradyme.” The question is not what mileage does the car get in CS mode, but as an electric car driver, how much gas do you need with your driving habits?

    nasaman: ATTN GM: Chelsea Sexton was recently loaned a LEAF for a full day and wrote an interesting test review on it. Why not have a fully-charged Volt filled with gas run on a dynamometer at pre-selected speeds and record the mpg registered by the car’s computer itself at arbitrary distances such as the following:
    MI MPG MPH
    10 —— ——
    20 —— ——
    30 —— ——
    40 —— ——
    50 —— ——
    60 —— ——
    70 -etc -etc
    80
    90
    100
    125
    150
    175
    200
    225
    250
    275
    300
    325
    350 (or to empty tank)
    Note that anyone who has the use of a Volt for 24hrs could approximate & publish the results of this test by simply recording the Volt’s displayed mpg & speed (using cruise control on a closed course) — if I were GM I’d consider having the dyno-controlled test like I’m suggesting done asap and release the results to the press.

    That sounds comprehensive as far as vehicle specs. But couldn’t all this would turn out to be a red herring for most drivers? Listing Volt gas mileage specifications, in the abstract, will actually tell you very little about how the car will perform in consumer hands.

    The Volt may require a new approach at a different scale. The mysterious GPY measure.

    Baltimore17: Sigh. Please forgive me the tone of the following, but I’m really, really

    frustrated by the lack of understanding on this topic.
    How many hundreds of posts on this subject have used the word “simple”? It’s not simple.
    Some poster a day or two ago wrote that he didn’t want to see any voodoo formulas. Sorry, but the Volt’s fuel economy is unlike EVERY other car that the public has EVER experienced. It’s NOT one number. It’s NOT two numbers. It ABSOLUTELY depends on how far you drive between charges. And it’s a continuous function of range where CS mode fuel consumption and battery range are inputs, not outputs. Sorry for the all caps frustration. I posted the formula twice but it really looks like the vast majority of Americans went through junior high school algebra classes with the mantra “I don’t see how I’ll ever need any of this stuff.” Well, this is where you need that stuff.
    If you can’t handle the math, then Rextado in post #6 had the best answer as to the Volt’s fuel economy: “Who cares the EPA-Number if you regular plug it in?” Because nobody but a flaming idiot will ever buy a Volt and experience the CS mode fuel economy by running it on petroleum forever. You want to run on petroleum forever? Buy a standard Prius or Jetta diesel!
    Sigh again. OK, rant off.
    PS: Yeah, Nasaman in post #14 gets it. 

    LOL and great points.

    I don’t know who may have said it earlier, but Dave G. solved it a few years ago. MPG does not work with this car. Make as many attempts to illustrate it as you like with miles per gallon. Top notch integration skills and some statistical sleuthing will help you build a picture that will confound and confuses everyone.

    Gallons per year is much easier to understand. Compare gallons consumed per year by make and model. Simple, easily understood – gallons per year.

    I believe I will need at most, about 38 gallons of gas a year. That alone makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

    I could go on and on about how I think that makes a huge difference. But I’ll just stop and say sorry for such a long comment to post.


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    Starcast

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:04 am)

    JohnK: 2) It will be hard to maintain good discipline and drive several hundred miles without charging.

    I think you are making GMs point. CS mode by itself will be used very very rarely.


  120. 120
    Jim I

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:07 am)

    OT:

    I just received another call from my local Chevy dealer. At least he seems interested in selling me a Volt!!! I am #1 on the list.

    He said they still have no word from GM on when Ohio dealers would get authorized to sell the Volt. He is not happy about the limited release area either. He wondered why we keep getting beat with the big brown stick in Ohio all the time…..

    He also said they have no information about servicing any Volt that might show up at the dealership for repairs.

    And BTW, this is not some small dealership.

    Doesn’t this contradict what GM is saying in all these press releases?

    So I kind of get the feeling that the information flow from GM to their dealers is not all that good.

    They really need to get their act together. After all, they have been doing this for quite a while, and you would think they already have procedures in place for this…..

    JMHO


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    The Grump

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:10 am)

    In an official White House announcement earlier today, GM has received an court order to stop sales of their upcoming electric car, the Volt. The cease and desist order was issued at the request of the EPA, due to the fact that the Volt’s official MPG (miles per gallon) has not been determined. An official spokesman for the EPA said “We cannot allow the sale of any car which has not been properly classified. Until we can find a formula for a direct comparison with gasoline powered automobiles, we cannot allow the sale of the Volt at this time.”

    The President’s spokeperson told reporters “President Obama has no comment at this time”.
    ———————-
    Hey, it could happen ! I’ve worked for the federal gov’t for 29 years now. This could actually happen. After the EV1, you can’t blame me for being a little paranoid. The EPA classified C02 as a pollutant, so anything is possible.

    That’s why I’m BUYING a Volt instead of leasing. Yeah, it’s expensive, but at least it will be MINE ! You never “own” a leased car.


  122. 122
    flmark

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:11 am)

    Shawn Marshall: Food fight….The question is whether it is caused by man and his activities. It is highly unlikely that global warming is caused by carbon dioxide emissions. Please consult the following link before you start the vicious attacks with all your airs of moral and intellectual superiority.  (Quote)

    Airs of superiority?

    Your last few words negate most of the reasoning you might put forth (even if it WERE valid)- which is absurd for reasons some have already responded to you with today. [You stated that ppm thing a few days ago and someone beat me to the punch. I wanted to bring up cyanide in the bloodstream.] You demonstrate a continuing pattern among the naysayers of global warming- an emotional response. And it doesn’t take long into your (or all the other) putrid diatribes before you bring up Al Gore’s name. I wish, for all of our sakes, that some less controversial character had been a flag bearer, but whatever. Reason has to rule emotion.

    Fact: CO2 causes global warming. Fact: Conservation of Matter. Fact: You put approximately 100 pounds mass (in the form of liquid) in your gas tank and drive around till it all has left your car in gaseous form (CO2 being a large part). Fact: There are hundreds of millions of us doing the same thing every day of every year. Then there are the users who support you (shipping, transportation, etc). Fact: Man cuts down rainforests and we lose large ABSORBERS of C02. The only people who can’t conclude that man is creating his own simmering stew of greenhouse effect are the ones who use emotions to make decisions instead of reason- and I don’t care if they have a PhD or not. Now put away your pouty face and use some logic. Even if you are not satisfied that ALL signs don’t yet point to a perilous conclusion, a smart person avoids the waterfall BEFORE he gets to the rapids in front of it.


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    kdawg

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:15 am)

    LRGVProVolt: kdawg #24: I would still like this official chart from GM.(note this is just something I threw together)

    Your right, GM didn’t produce this chart. YOU did! And is in clearly wrong to me.
    For the situations where drivers go 40 miles or less they will use an extremely small amount of gas; essential zero. Therefore, your graph should go to infinity at the y-axis of the chart for the MPG Fuel Economy. The green line should continue to rise for miles driven. No leveling off! Off course, I am Chinese (not); I’m reading from right to left, bottom to top.
    If you post your chart again, I suggest you correct the error.
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
    P.S. My original guess for MPG fuel economy was closer to 60 but I, too, now believe (that the engineers, as stated, intended to use a six gallon tank) is what we will see. That means in CS mode, you would get 50 mpg: Note: The picture at beginning of this article shows 5.3 gal. That’s just another reason I think it will be six gallon tank.

    You’re correct and Baltimore pointed that out earlier, and when I originally posed this chart a week or so ago, i noted that betlow 40 miles it would be infinite. However Excel doesn’t like dividing by zero, i had to limit the range on the top of my chart, and i was doing this during my lunch time for 5 minutes. BUT, since it appears to bother so many, i will touch it up w/some paint shop pro, so next time I post it, it shows infinity. (OR GM could just make it).


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    JohnK

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:16 am)

    A suggestion for a series of advertisements:
    - start off by comparing the Volt to a “normal” car. It has a 75 HP engine. It can go 300 miles on x gallons of gas. But wait! The 75 HP engine is connected to an electric generator. And that is connected to a 111KW electric traction motor with a battery as a buffer. And that lets the traction motor develop more power than the generator. And the traction motor has the equivalent torque of a 200 HP engine. And the Volt has a smooth ride like a German import….


  125. 125
    Darpa

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:18 am)

    “Someone at GM (maybe an engineer) should simply provide unofficial test numbers. Example: On a long freeway incline we experience 30-33 MPG. Long flat runs at 45 mph yeild 44 MPG. On our Freedom Drive from Austin to DC we achieved 50MPG overall.”

    That someone would be a former GM employee 15 minutes after the information was released. We need a “GM deepthroat” to release the information under a freedom of information act request.

    Dave K.: Someone at GM (maybe an engineer) should simply provide unofficial test numbers. Example: On a long freeway incline we experience 30-33 MPG. Long flat runs at 45 mph yeild 44 MPG. On our Freedom Drive from Austin to DC we achieved 50MPG overall.


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    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:20 am)

    DonC:
    Think of it this way: The most direct and therefore efficient way of driving the car would be to have the engine turn the wheels. Sort of Mechanical –> Mechanical. The Volt takes an indirect way of having the engine create electricity which then is fed to a motor which turns the wheels, so you have Mechanical –>Electrical –> Mechanical. Since you have losses every time you do a conversion you have losses, more conversions mean less efficiency and a lower MPG.  

    Thank you, DonC. I get it now.
    So we need a fusion reactor in the car so that we have less conversions. ;)


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    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:21 am)

    Tom: I have been driving one from MY 2004 and my findings are based on recording mileage and buying gas not looking at the display . Summer with air off 51.2 mpg with a high of 58.8 and a low of 46.3. the air costs 3 mpg on the highway and 9.3 city.
    Winter 43.2 with a high of 46.8 and a low of 34.7 with the heat on .This is driveing 2 different prisus the 1st one consistently got 4 mpg better than the 2nd one.These #s are a mix of city and highway and 95,550 miles.
    Tom  

    Very interesting, Tom.
    I knew that cold weather affected mileage, but I didn’t realize that it did it by the amount you have experienced.


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    Hmmm

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:24 am)

    They really do seem to be hiding something. If it’s something good (better than expected) that could make for some great buzz leading into the first month of sales. If it’s something bad (less than expected) it could really give this program a black eye. If it’s in the 30′s I’d definitely consider that pretty bad (mostly affecting those consumers with significant highway driving). If it’s in the 40′s, meh to somewhat bad. If it’s in the 50′s, meh to good. If it’s in the 60′s, awesome! I think it’s ridiculous if GM doesn’t tell people what CS MPG is before selling it… so I assume it will be on that damn chart but they’re making it sound like it won’t???


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    jeffhre

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:29 am)

    DonC: Yes the two-mode has a direct linkage. The Volt would probably get better MPG if it used a direct linkage. But then it wouldn’t be an EV, would it? It would just be a serial hybrid like the plug-in Prius. Not a lot of excitement in that, so it was probably a better decision to go with the marketing message than with higher efficiency. 

    Would’t it give you a little higher efficiency in just one mode of operation. To me it would be a little like optimizing everything I do to be most efficient during my two week vacation( The two weeks when I may be driving the farthest and can’ use my home charger). And suffering through lower efficiencies for the other 50 weeks of the year. I’m guessing two mode would not give me overall higher efficiencies than Voltec.

    If I’m going to compromise I’d rather it be something I spend the least amount of time on. 40 miles of AER makes it possible.


  130. 130
    Charlie H

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:29 am)

    Nick D: I have never driven a vehicle GM or not that had a Range to Empty display that used the entire tank… The truth is we dont know all the details and to assume that the 300mi range consumes the entire volume of the 9 gallon tank is only speculation… Until we know for sure it is pointless to post an mpg with a simple 300/9  (Quote)

    I’m not talking about “Range to Empty” on the instrument panel, where some degree of caution might be useful, I’m talking about published figures for the vehicles overall range. This has always been tank size * mpg.


  131. 131
    Hmmm

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:32 am)

    Simple lesson for GM:

    Don’t beat around the bush. The CS fuel economy is what it is. You will not pi$$ people off if you provide that number. However you will definitely turn people off if you don’t. There are enough conspiracy theorists out there criticizing GM over electrification of cars that you shouldn’t be adding fuel to the fire, looking like you’re hiding something.

    GM also should have learned something with the pricing game. I feel the volt price is reasonable given the amount of new technology and the low production and risk involved to GM. If they had been more transparent about price I don’t think there would be all these angry and disappointed comments over the last few days. However with that said, GM left that price question twist in the wind for so long, and came out with so many vague statements which people interpreted 1000 different ways, that it pretty much bit the General in the a$$ afterwards.

    CS fuel economy better be near 50mpg (the number @ which they left twisting in the wind)… and if it’s not come out and say so or it’s only going to be worse when people eventually find out.


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    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:36 am)

    flmark: Rashiid, I smile as I write this, so don’t think I am nitpicking on spelling (we all screw up spelling). I expect that the word you wanted was ‘rancor’.

    I’m laughing. You are correct. I used the wrong “ranker”.
    Well, I do try to be perfect. I usually don’t succeed. At least according to my wife. ;)
    Enjoy you day, flmark.


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    LauraM

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:36 am)

    DonC: The thing about global warming is that it’s slow. Since it’s slow people can’t see it. Now you’re asking them to expend time and money in order to avoid a problem they don’t see any evidence of. Hard for them to do. Think of a frog in water that is being slowly heated. Same result.

    Charlie H: Congressional intransigence generated by fossil fuel lobbyists.

    And people just don’t care what may happen to their grandchildren enough to give up driving a gas hog and pay attention to the environment.

    For a significant part of the electorate, this may actually accelerate our reaching the “End Times,” and that’s a good thing because they’re all going to get sucked into Heaven and us sinners (who believe in Evil-Lution and the like) will be left behind to enjoy Armageddon.

    But I’m not asking them why they’re not giving up their gas hogs. Or even to cut carbon emissions. (Well, I am, but not here.)

    If everyone agrees that global warming is happening, and they only dispute the cause, why not make sure new bridges are more heat resistant? Or build more drainage? We have the technology. It can’t be that expensive.


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    Pat Joy

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    I think the solution is simple. Since the Volt runs in two modes, battery or gas assisted then the label should appear with two numbers. First would address battery operation and would be in Kilowatts per mile with appropriate cost for electricity. The second mode range extender would show a miles per gallon and supporting cost data. Cost would be added together for a cost per mile of energy used. Putting a listing that tries to give a miles per gallon for combined is a misleading number at best, because there are to many variables. So just stick to the basics and the numbers will add up properly.


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    Charlie H

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:39 am)

    DonC: Yes the two-mode has a direct linkage. The Volt would probably get better MPG if it used a direct linkage. But then it wouldn’t be an EV, would it? It would just be a serial hybrid like the plug-in Prius. Not a lot of excitement in that, so it was probably a better decision to go with the marketing message than with higher efficiency.  (Quote)

    I disagree.

    Look how much trouble GM is having in trying to explain the car as it is. There’s a recent post in the forum about some CNN report “getting it all wrong.” Nobody knows it’s an EREV, nobody knows what an EREV is and GM’s not having much success explaining it (never mind the particulars of the car seem to shift mysteriously from time to time).

    The Volt must compete with the Prius. Better numbers, all around, are the best marketing message they can send. If a direct mechanical linkage would get them there, that’s what they should be using.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:43 am)

    LauraM: But I’m not asking them why they’re not giving up their gas hogs.Or even to cut carbon emissions.(Well, I am, but not here.)If everyone agrees that global warming is happening, and they only dispute the cause, why not make sure new bridges are more heat resistant?Or build more drainage?We have the technology.It can’t be that expensive.  

    I’m one of those people who believe in Global Warming, but have no idea what is really causing it.

    However, putting less pollution into the air we breathe helps everyone.


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    Don J

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:46 am)

    WTF EPA? You’ve known about the Volt for 3+ years now and you STILL can’t decide how you will rate it? That is seriously lame. Just pick something.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:48 am)

    Money Pit: Is it even legal to sell a vehicle in the US without the EPA sticker? and GM refusing to inform purchasers of what the CS mileage is? Seems problematic to me ..  (Quote)

    No manufacturer provides the estimated fuel economy of their vehicles. The EPA is a government agency charged to do so. From experience, it is hard to regulate the government to do their job….. thus when the government fails to do their job there is no reprecussions.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:49 am)

    Charlie H: Look how much trouble GM is having in trying to explain the car as it is. There’s a recent post in the forum about some CNN report “getting it all wrong.” Nobody knows it’s an EREV, nobody knows what an EREV is and GM’s not having much success explaining it (never mind the particulars of the car seem to shift mysteriously from time to time).
    The Volt must compete with the Prius. Better numbers, all around, are the best marketing message they can send. If a direct mechanical linkage would get them there, that’s what they should be using.

    Yes. Education is the key. The VOLT represents technology in a combination not used before. So, how does this look?

    VOLT_comparison.jpg


  140. 140
    LauraM

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:55 am)

    flmark: Quit fighting about Volt vs Leaf, or how much of your lifestyle you have to sacrifice due to purchase price. Please, look to do SOMETHING to make a difference- and suggest to others to do the same. Call me a preachy SOB if you want, but never label me a bleeding heart. As I said on that day, I am a pragmatist.

    Flmark, I agree with you about global warming. I take it very seriously. But the one thing I’ve learned in my quest to cut my personal carbon footprint, is that, ultimately, we’re all hypocrites. We could all do more than we’re doing now. Me included. It’s all a matter of degree. There are things I’m not willing to give up. And that’s true of pretty much everyone.

    On a personal level–I gave up beef. And lamb. And pork. I will not give up chicken. Or dairy. I try to buy from (relatively) sustainable producers. But that’s not always possible. I will not give up traveling. I try to carry a reusable bag for groceries, but for takeout I still get plastic bags because I’m not willing to risk a leak. I try to reduce my use of airconditioning. But, I still need to sleep. I take the subway to work. But, sometimes, to get someplace quickly, I take a cab.

    I could go on…Basically, no one is going to give up the aspects of modern life that matter the most to them. And, any solution that requires people to do so on an individual basis, is flat out not going to happen. At some point, we need the government to step in. Grass roots doesn’t cut it.


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    JonP.

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:55 am)

    Maybe i’m a SIMPLE guy but all i need to know is:

    How far on a full charge: 40miles depending on driving habbits
    How far on a gallon of gas after battery is depleted: (XX) mpg depending on driving habbits

    They just did the Freedom drive, they know exactly what type of mpg the Volt is getting. The fact that they aren’t releasing it is very concerning. They did the same thing with the MSRP and look what it came in at…..

    It doesn’t have to be official, they could say something like ” In our test drives we have been achieving mpg of XX during charge sustaining mode. That number isn’t offical till verified by the EPA”.

    In all honesty i can’t believe all the people at GM involved in this and we can’t get a tester, or engineer to leak this info….
    As has been said here already the fact that their not saying coupled with the fact that their trying to come up with some crazy formula that ties the all electric & gas miles used together makes me think it’s not very good. Which i can’t understand for the life of me since the ICE Cruise that is on the same chasis and has very close dimensions, and a worse drag is gonna get 40mpg

    Now i know why Lutz and the rest of the origional Volt team is gone, because so is the vision for the Volt that they had originaly. Now its a Halo car to get people to buy Cruises & Malibu’s and help with their fleet CAFE average.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:59 am)

    I’m guessing right about now there is quite a bit of wrangling between GM and the Feds about what the “gas” mileage is, because it could have a potentially big impact on the GM’s Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) rating. GM is going to want a formula that makes the MPG as high as possible, which takes pressure of its other units, particular those that make trucks and SUVs.

    The logical thing, as many have pointed out is to list just EV range and CS MPG, but the CS MPG alone won’t help the CAFE rating as much as the formula that gave the Volt 230 MPG.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:01 pm)

    Ow ya as far as the price….

    You can buy 2 Chevy Cruise’s and still have 8K left over to put 3,077 gallons of gas into them.

    $8,000.00 / $2.60 = 3076.923 gallons

    Hard to justify this…..


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:03 pm)

    Noah Nehm: The logical thing, as many have pointed out is to list just EV range and CS MPG, but the CS MPG alone won’t help the CAFE rating as much as the formula that gave the Volt 230 MPG.

    Couldn’t have said it better myself……. This is about alot more than CS mode MPG.


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    Roy H

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:04 pm)

    Shawn Marshall: Almost anyone “believes” we are in a global warming period. The question is whether it is caused by man and his activities. It is highly unlikely that global warming is caused by carbon dioxide emissions.

    Global warming is not per se the primary issue. We are destroying the planet with pollution.

    Your link argues that scientific data is flawed and cherry picked and denounces the “hockey stick” graph as unprovable as we don’t have actual reliable records. However the same article uses sediment data strata and ice cores to support their claim about sun intensity fluctuations. They say that higher temperatures are causing more CO2 to come from the ground and mostly from the oceans. If this is true how come coral, algae, and fish are dying because of measured increases of acidity caused by increased CO2? They cite many glaciers that are increasing, however more than 80% are decreasing. But to give them some credit, they are not arguing that global warming does not exist or that pollution is good, just that they believe global warming is natural and not caused by man.

    Aside from global warming issues, we still need to stop pollution and save our sources of oxygen and food.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age for hockey stick temperature graph
    See: http://psc.apl.washington.edu/ArcticSeaiceVolume/images/BPIOMASIceVolumeAnomalyCurrent.png for Arctic Ocean ice volume trend.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:12 pm)

    Texas: I’m still sticking by my ~30 mpg at 70 mph continuous highway driving.

    What does a Prius get at a steady 70mph?


  147. 147
    MooseAMoose

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:15 pm)

    Charlie H:
    I disagree.Look how much trouble GM is having in trying to explain the car as it is.There’s a recent post in the forum about some CNN report “getting it all wrong.”Nobody knows it’s an EREV, nobody knows what an EREV is and GM’s not having much success explaining it (never mind the particulars of the car seem to shift mysteriously from time to time).The Volt must compete with the Prius.Better numbers, all around, are the best marketing message they can send.If a direct mechanical linkage would get them there, that’s what they should be using.  

    Chevrolet needs to use a “Horses for Courses” advertising campaign, rather than shouting “You will get infinite gas mileage [whisper] if you go less than 40 or maybe 30 miles, or is it 25 [/whisper]”

    They could be having CARB problems with the range extender part of the equation. Funny thing happened to the CARB approved Hymotion plug-in Prius. CARB took a look at it and made them modify the thing (Which some folks promptly un-modified) so that the ICE was forced to warm up so that it could have lower total emissions.

    The mileage test that should be keeping Volt fanciers awake nights will be the one that some wiseguy will perform using 18 gallons of gas. Nine will go into a fully charged Volt, the other nine into a similarly charged PHEV Prius. Both cars will start from the Ferry Building in ‘Frisco (sorry, couldn’t resist) and head towards Salt Lake City over the Sierras. I shudder to think about the results.

    The Volt is a perfect car for some people. The Leaf is a perfect car for some people. The PHEV Prius will be a perfect car for some people.

    Competition is good.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:16 pm)

    Billy Bob: FLMark #16, that was a good post. This is a bit ironic though. The “Father” of the Volt, Bob Lutz doesn’t believe in Global Warming. I believe in Global Warming. Hpwever, I don’t make the money like a lot of people on this site, state, country, or world… If I could afford either car, I would probably purchase the Leaf, a vast majority of the driving that I do is in town less than 40MPH. And keeping in mind, our community is less than 70k. So many things in our society is so screwed up, the average age of the young kids having sex is around the 7th grade, our prsident may not be legal to be in office, the upper-management at GM is missing a few marbles….. I don’t want to go on, but where does it end?  (Quote)

    Yes, the list of problems is enough to make one need a tranquilizer. One can only control one’s own a) actions, b) communications, and c) purchases.

    A) Walk, bike or car pool when possible. Drive efficiently, without jackrabbit starts and delayed (full force) braking. Utilize Reusable bags for grocery store trips (they aren’t just practical; they make a statement when you pull them out). Check out something like http://www.amazon.com/Envirosax-Candy-5-Pouch/dp/B0027CT2JE This pouch will easily fit in most women’s handbags. I leave the pouch in the car and stuff a few bags in my pockets before I go into the store. Each bag holds 40 lbs. Recycle everything you can. The list goes on and on and once you start down the path, you actually become obsessive-compulsive in self-examination.

    B) Educate yourself and tell as many as you can about what can be done. When I told my son-in-law about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, a area of plastic the size of Texas, he replied, “Why don’t we ever hear about this stuff?” Well, now he has heard. Maybe he’ll use a bit less plastic and recycle. Write your representatives. The environmental regulations of the early ’70s happened because grass roots folks used politics as a tool to get rid of some of the worst and scare the rest (for fear of being voted out of office) of our politicians into action. http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/011085.html

    C) This forum is about the right kind of car, but our purchase decisions run the gamut from the obviously green (solar panels) to laundry detergent. The very fact that wholesale clubs are offering up green alternatives is a very positive thing. Buy them!! Tell others to buy them!! Any product needs word-of-mouth support from a satisfied customer, so much more so for these green products. LED bulbs use 90% less electricity and (should) last for decades. Buy a UPS (Battery back up) for your home entertainment center. Not only does this protect the equipment, it also gives you an on-off switch for several energy sucking vampires to kill all at once. In the market for a new cooktop? Buy an induction cooktop which is generally twice as efficient as alternatives. I have gotten rid of my lawn and planted shrubs, beds, etc and installed a limited amount of artificial turf. This is not your father’s astroturf, it fools even the lawn care specialists. I now have NOT ONE gasoline powered tool in my garage. And now I have come to get annoyed with the sound (and smell) of lawn mowers in my neighborhood. Another discussion that could continue on and on.

    While your discussion goes on into other societal issues, I am discussing Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs My discussion lies with the very base of the pyramid. You can’t solve ANY other problem if you first have to figure out where food and water are coming from. This is the seriousness of the issue as pointed out with my first post. If the very bottom of food chain is in peril, health care, financial reform, etc is a ridiculous preoccupation. It is not just a WAY of life that is at stake, it is the LIFE itself.


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    Mitch

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:16 pm)

    Brother of GM employee: Simply tell people this: EV range and mpg during CS mode, it is not that difficult. Why GM keep trying to hide this or trying to cook the numbers for ballyhoo? Answer is very simple: MPG during charge sustaining mode is about 35 mpg under normal driving conditions.They behave the same way as they did before Chapter 11, with all those said, we must appreciate GM engineers, you are the best, but the top managers are sh*t and will continue to ruin the company.  (Quote)

    this quote is an example. but applies to any thinking GM is hiding something.

    READ MY LIPS.” the EPA makes that tag, not GM” if the EPA has nothing for GM to use, then there is nothing to use. GM will make an info sticker until the gubermint has something. Yes you can sell without an EPA sticker, its not like GM hid the launch date, or hid how it operates (40 miles AER rest in CS mode) its just the EPA did nothing to address how they can evaluate it. Shame on them. you want a number? 230mpg. assuming regular driving patterns and full nightly recharge. EPA may be less as will your daily driving habits affect this number.

    no secret. so STFU


  150. 150
    Mitch

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:25 pm)

    Nelson: To whoever gets a Volt first: Please do the following MPG test.Park your Volt overnight with depleted battery and do not charge.Next day drive to local gas station near highway and fill up gas tank.Reset trip .Drive on highway with windows closed and air conditioner on, 60 mph using cruise control until gas tank indicator drops a quarter of the tank.Record trip odometer reading and let us know what it is.This will tell us how many miles the car drove in CS mode on a quarter tank of gas.If GM is accurate about 300 miles on a full tank of gas, then you should have driven 75 miles.If the gas tank is 9 gallons, you will have used up, 2.25 gallons.75/2.25 = 33.33MPGI’m hoping GM was wrong about the 300 miles on a full tank of gas statement.Maybe they meant to say OVER 300 miles on a full tank of gas.OrClose to 360 highway miles on a full tank of gas.Let us know all the details too, like was it raining or did you encounter traffic and had to disengage cruise control.Why GM wont supply this information is very disconcerting.NPNS!  (Quote)

    Wrong way Nelson.

    Deplete the battery, fill the tank, drive 100 + miles, stop at gas station, refill tank. divide total miles by number of gallons used to refill tank. THAT is your actual MPG.

    your way only works if a) you KNOW the total volume of your tank, b) the guage is calibrated that way (my equinox deplets the bottom 1/2 faster than the top because of its shape, so 1/4 on the gauge is not 1/4 of the volume)

    My way measures the gas consummed


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:26 pm)

    Pat Joy: Cost would be added together for a cost per mile of energy used.

    No, it cannot be simply added together, to do so would capture only a slight portion of the spectrum Volt performance during consumer use.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:29 pm)

    LauraM: But I’m not asking them why they’re not giving up their gas hogs. Or even to cut carbon emissions. (Well, I am, but not here.) If everyone agrees that global warming is happening, and they only dispute the cause, why not make sure new bridges are more heat resistant? Or build more drainage? We have the technology. It can’t be that expensive.  (Quote)

    That’s the trouble, LauraM, not everyone agrees. Almost all of those who actually study climate agree that AGW is real and probably a significant threat:

    http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/evidence-for-a-consensus-on-climate-change/

    There are a few holdouts with some significant credibility (which, by the way, they are losing), Pielke and Lindzen for example, but none have published any research that actually refutes the consensus opinion.

    There’s a good article on the origins of climate science over on RealClimate.org today. I highly recommend it. The comments are good, too. Then check out a slightly earlier article, “The Montford Delusion” to learn why the idea of fixing AGW gets no traction.


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:31 pm)

    EPA should read like this..
    PHV PRIUS:
    EV Range: Up to 13 Miles Per Full Charge
    EV MPH: Up to 60mph
    Hybrid Mode: 48/50 MPG

    Chevy Volt:
    EV Range: Up to 40 Miles Per Full Charge
    EV MPH: Up to 90mph
    Hybrid Mode: 48/50 MPG

    LEAF:
    EV Range: Up to 100 Miles Per Full Charge
    EV MPH: Up to 90mph
    Hybrid Mode: N/A

    All depending on driver and driving conditions.
    Don’t try and blend the numbers.
    Keep it “KISS”.


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    Nick D

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:32 pm)

    Roy H: What does a Prius get at a steady 70mph?  (Quote)

    Mine gets 48MPG @ 70 MPH

    I typically drive at 63MPH and can achieve 58.8MPG

    At 55 MPG for 2 hours I have clocked in 64 MPG

    And these values are all on E-10, on Gasoline without Ethanol probably a 3-5% improvement


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:36 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Yes. Education is the key. The VOLT represents technology in a combination not used before. So, how does this look?  (Quote)

    I understand it but it looks like the Leaf is going backwards.

    Have them both start from the same point at the left and just color the extended range-bar a different color. It should be obvious that the Volt runs out of juice first but keeps going and runs out of gas much, much later.

    I wonder how it would work to try to show charge time as part of the chart? Maybe something like a Gantt chart would serve.

    It’s still going to be hard to communicate this. Look on the bright side – they only have to educate 10K people to sell out in 2011. That’s doable.


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    srschrier

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:42 pm)

    The GM Volt test engineers doing the cross country drives surely know the amount of gas and CSM MPGs under a wide range of road conditions.

    With the Volt only weeks away from dealerships why not share some of the CSM MPG test drive results with us, the customers, before we decide to buy or lease?

    Example, “During our freedom drive from Austin to New York City we only used (fill in the blank) gallons and averaged (fill in the blank) MPG”.

    Early adopters will provide more CSM information but it’s no substitute for providing customers upfront with results from GM’s own Volt test drives.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:42 pm)

    Charlie H: I wonder how it would work to try to show charge time as part of the chart? Maybe something like a Gantt chart would serve.

    Hey, that’s a good point. I dunno if that would be possible though. Unless ALL the mfgr’s like Coulomb, Ecotality etc….standardize on set wattage. I think right now, some Level I use 9A and some might use 12A. No standard was really applied so sh|ts gonna be everywhere.

    But I think that might be a good idea.


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    Nick D

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:43 pm)

    JonP.: Ow ya as far as the price….You can buy 2 Chevy Cruise’s and still have 8K left over to put 3,077 gallons of gas into them.$8,000.00 / $2.60 = 3076.923 gallonsHard to justify this…..  (Quote)

    Not hard to justify at all – just depend on your priorities…

    Assume 38MPG combined on the cruize.

    3076 gallons * 38 combined 116888 miles or about 58444 miles each.

    3076 * 19lbs of CO2 58501 lbs of CO2 emmitted in 1/3 of the cars expected life.

    3076 * 3 (expect 150k miles each) 9228 Gallons total over life of cars

    9228 * 2.60 = $23,992 spent in gas assuming price never goes up / 2 or $12,000 in gas per car.

    175332 LBS of CO2 emitted combined in gas emmissions over life of the 2 cars.

    My chevy volt 28 gallons per year at 18,000 miles. 8.3 years to 150K miles (at 40MPG CS Mode)

    8.3 * 28 = 232.4 gallons over life of car 4415.16 lbs of CO2

    175,000 lbs of CO2 for your 2 cruises or 87,500 each
    4,500 lbs of CO2 for my volt

    Spending $12,000 in forign oil for each cruize
    Spending $ 605 in forign oil for my 1 volt (E-85 on Gen 2)

    Thats how I justify it


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:43 pm)

    flmark: I have gotten rid of my lawn and planted shrubs, beds, etc and installed a limited amount of artificial turf. This is not your father’s astroturf, it fools even the lawn care specialists.

    If you’re looking for suggestions, a native plant garden is much better than artificial turf. It doesn’t require any fertilizer or extra water other than rain. You could also grow some of your own food. Organically. And, since you have a garden, you could compost a lot of your waste. (I live in an apartment building, so none of this is an option for me.)

    As far as carrying a reusable tote–they’re available at most supermarkets. And, unlike Amazon, buying it there doesn’t involve personal shipping.

    As far as the eco-friendly laundry detergent (or any other kind of detergent for that matter)–some of them are more eco-friendly than others. For example, how eco-friendly is it to ship laundry detergent (which is mostly water) from Belgium? Or worse, China? Buy the powdered kind. Made as close to you as possible.

    I recently heard that so called “natural” sunscreen ingredients (zinc oxide and titanium dioxide) are generally used in the form of nano-particles that are actually worse than the chemicals..

    Oh, and forget “organic” dry cleaning. Apparently, it’s made from oil. You have to find a place that does carbon dioxide cleaning. Which, at least in NY is rare. Some places do wet cleaning for certain pieces, you have to ask…Better yet, don’t buy anything that requires dry cleaning…

    And then there’s the whole mass produced organic debate. Is it really better to use copper as a pesticide?

    My point is that it really does never end…


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:44 pm)

    N Riley: #68 Roy H:
    Some how I don’t see anything changing with the way the country is going today. It will take a massive emergency situation to force change. Those with power are not wont to give it up. That includes the so-called rich power brokers, the government bureaucrats and the politicians to name just a few groups.

    This is news? Ever seen government accounting. I wouldn’t even call it accounting, just incredibly boring narrative accompanied by some numbers.

    In a way it makes sense though, when you run a monopoly organization, the standards setters are elected by popularity contests, your disclosure standards to lenders consist of only an interest rate quote, you lend trillions with no collateral, your budgets are ignored, you’ve been running since day one at a loss, and profits are never, ever expected.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:47 pm)

    DonC:
    Think of it this way: The most direct and therefore efficient way of driving the car would be to have the engine turn the wheels. Sort of Mechanical –> Mechanical. The Volt takes an indirect way of having the engine create electricity which then is fed to a motor which turns the wheels, so you have Mechanical –>Electrical –> Mechanical. Since you have losses every time you do a conversion you have losses, more conversions mean less efficiency and a lower MPG.  

    This is what intrigues me most about the CS mode for the Volt.

    If, somehow the Volt is able to increase the mpg in CS mode relative to an equivalent pure ICE, then I would really press that someone build me a “cheap” EREV, that uses a 20 HP (I calculated this out before, but 20HP should be sufficient) on-board generator that runs nearly constantly to charge a “small” battery (4-6KW).

    This solution does a few things.
    One, is price reduction would be fairly good. You have reduced the engine size and all its supporting components significantly (Possibly air cooled..?).

    Also, you cut your battery pack in 1/2 or more. I would guestimate the GM or other big car maker, could build this car for about $23-27k.

    Another benefit is the weight reduction will be significant, therefore helping with mpg.

    And you also get more room, so adding that 5th seat back in should be a piece of cake.

    This was my original concept of the Volt from day one, but soon learned that this was not the idea behind the Volt.

    If you could squeeze 50mpg using this type of design, which I believe is very possible, I would expect them to sell like hot cakes!


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    Mitch

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:48 pm)

    Nick D: Not hard to justify at all – just depend on your priorities…Assume 38MPG combined on the cruize.3076 gallons * 38 combined 116888 miles or about 58444 miles each. 3076 * 19lbs of CO2 58501 lbs of CO2 emmitted in 1/3 of the cars expected life.3076 * 3 (expect 150k miles each) 9228 Gallons total over life of cars9228 * 2.60 = $23,992 spent in gas assuming price never goes up / 2 or $12,000 in gas per car.175332 LBS of CO2 emitted combined in gas emmissions over life of the 2 cars.My chevy volt 28 gallons per year at 18,000 miles. 8.3 years to 150K miles (at 40MPG CS Mode)8.3 * 28 = 232.4 gallons over life of car 4415.16 lbs of CO2175,000 lbs of CO2 for your 2 cruises or 87,500 each4,500 lbs of CO2 for my voltSpending $12,000 in forign oil for each cruizeSpending $ 605 in forign oil for my 1 volt (E-85 on Gen 2)Thats how I justify it  (Quote)

    Nick.

    That is simply beautiful…

    I love you man!


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    Jim I

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:54 pm)

    LauraM But I’m not asking them why they’re not giving up their gas hogs. Or even to cut carbon emissions. (Well, I am, but not here.)

    If everyone agrees that global warming is happening, and they only dispute the cause, why not make sure new bridges are more heat resistant? Or build more drainage? We have the technology. It can’t be that expensive.

    :

    ============================

    The problem with your logic, Laura, is that governments at all levels do not even have the funds to repair what exists today, let alone try to over-build for a problem they do not have yet. I may be completely wrong about this, but IMHO, governments are reactive, not proactive. Once there is an oil spill, or a bridge collapse, the elected officials all want to be on TV, so they wring their hands and say “How did this happen? But don’t worry, we will fix it so it never happens again.” Then they have the hearings, and pass legislation ends up so diluted that it changes basically nothing. Just look at the financial meltdown, and what was done do “fix” it, and what is going on now with the oil spill in the Gulf. The MMS did nothing to make sure that BP was prepared for a catastrophe, even though that is part of their mandate. And the hearings are going on now…..

    And as far as the EPA figuring out how to rate the Volt, I just want to say this: They are overseeing the “cleanup” of the Gulf. Need I say more????

    Sorry, I really try to stay out of political discussions, but sometimes I just can’t help myself!


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:55 pm)

    avatar3791_2.gif

    Check out my house I made my green statement!!!!!!

    It was supposed to be my VOLT gas station


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:55 pm)

    kdawg: from GM. (note this is just

    60 mpg ?


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    Charlie H

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

    Nick D: Mine gets 48MPG @ 70 MPHI typically drive at 63MPH and can achieve 58.8MPGAt 55 MPG for 2 hours I have clocked in 64 MPGAnd these values are all on E-10, on Gasoline without Ethanol probably a 3-5% improvement  (Quote)

    What year is your Prius? Thanks.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

    Charlie H: It’s still going to be hard to communicate this. Look on the bright side – they only have to educate 10K people to sell out in 2011. That’s doable.

    Once the interested potential buyers and lessees are done playing musical chairs to find a dealer that still has Volts allocated, there will be no one left to educate :) They will sell out the first years production allotment without any consumer education.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:02 pm)

    Charlie H: I understand it but it looks like the Leaf is going backwards.Have them both start from the same point at the left and just color the extended range-bar a different color. It should be obvious that the Volt runs out of juice first but keeps going and runs out of gas much, much later.I wonder how it would work to try to show charge time as part of the chart? Maybe something like a Gantt chart would serve.It’s still going to be hard to communicate this. Look on the bright side – they only have to educate 10K people to sell out in 2011. That’s doable.  (Quote)

    I tried that, but I think this chart highlights the fact that the VOLT has extended range capabilities where the Leaf does not. At least a little better.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    Charlie H: What year is your Prius? Thanks.  (Quote)

    Its a 2010 on lease until 2013 at which ponit it will be traded in and i will be purchsing my Volt if available, otherwise I will buy the car for the Residual.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:11 pm)

    jeffhre: In a way it makes sense though, when you run a monopoly organization, the standards setters are elected by popularity contests, your disclosure standards to lenders consist of only an interest rate quote, you lend trillions with no collateral, your budgets are ignored, you’ve been running since day one at a loss, and profits are never, ever expected.

    Well, in my experience, people generally live up (or down) to people’s expectations. In other words, since we expect complete government incompetence, why are we surprised when we get it? Maybe if we started expecting them to be more competent, they would be.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:13 pm)

    Jim I: The problem with your logic, Laura, is that governments at all levels do not even have the funds to repair what exists today, let alone try to over-build for a problem they do not have yet.

    Overbuild? If they’re going to build a bridge anyway, it doesn’t cost that much to make it stand up to a wide range in temperature. They already do it in areas with more widely ranging temperatures. It seems like a sensible precaution.


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    Susan

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:14 pm)

    They behave the same way as they did before Chapter 11, with all those said, we must appreciate GM engineers, you are the best, but the top managers are sh*t and will continue to ruin the company.


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    Timaaayyy!!!

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:17 pm)

    I’m with the posters that could care less, personally, about the mpg in CS mode. However, I must acknowledge that there seem to be a lot of posters that do care, so I hope GM does not disappoint them.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:24 pm)

    LauraM: Flmark, I agree with you about global warming. I take it very seriously. But the one thing I’ve learned in my quest to cut my personal carbon footprint, is that, ultimately, we’re all hypocrites. We could all do more than we’re doing now. Me included. It’s all a matter of degree. There are things I’m not willing to give up. And that’s true of pretty much everyone. On a personal level–I gave up beef. And lamb. And pork. I will not give up chicken. Or dairy. I try to buy from (relatively) sustainable producers. But that’s not always possible. I will not give up traveling. I try to carry a reusable bag for groceries, but for takeout I still get plastic bags because I’m not willing to risk a leak. I try to reduce my use of airconditioning. But, I still need to sleep. I take the subway to work. But, sometimes, to get someplace quickly, I take a cab. I could go on…Basically, no one is going to give up the aspects of modern life that matter the most to them. And, any solution that requires people to do so on an individual basis, is flat out not going to happen. At some point, we need the government to step in. Grass roots doesn’t cut it.  (Quote)

    I don’t disagree with anything you said. I haven’t given up beef and heck, we are all here discussing something that still burns oil. I am not a Haite Ashbury lunatic. I get a kick out of the extremist types who live in communes and condemn us all (where do they get the glass from, solar panels, etc?). They are the hypocrites who still use industrially produced goods and act like they don’t.

    I believe self examination yields self improvement to some similar threshold that you strive for. At some point though, it MUST become outward activism (or you end up in a commune). And that outward push inevitabley starts with the visible excesses of the clearly self absorbed who put societal needs nowhere on their agenda. (The Hummer ought to be the logo for this group). Unfortunately, I believe they are the last ones who will get it. We should really focus our influence on the moderates to start the self-examination process. Society can migrate its viewpoints- hopefully soon enough to head off calamity.

    The ‘N-word’ (of racial division) always disturbed me as a child, yet it was ubiquitous. If you had said to the average American in 1965 that a [N-word] named Barack Obama would be president within 50 years, they would have put you in a straight jacket and locked you away. It is this change in my lifetime that gives me hope that we can save a semblance of the very comfortable lives we have now and deliver it to our descendants.

    However, I think it unlikely that Americans will lead the charge or really take action until challenged (as with Sputnik). We seem to be complacent until it is too painful to not be. It may be a blessing that the Chinese were the have-nots until it was becoming clear that fossil fuels would not help them continue with their progress. They have realized that to CONTINUE to improve their lifestyles, renewable methods are the only route to pursue.

    Larry Hagman is noted for having the largest residential solar array in the country. He did it not to change the world, but to remove his negative impact from the world. If we all took that attitude, I whole-heartedly believe that we could keep enough of our ‘vices’ that our lives wouldn’t seem draconian at all. The attitude that must prevail though is that all of our consumerism must be SUSTAINABLE. You should be able to have your ‘steak’ (well it rhymes with cake) and eat it too (but not at every meal).

    There is an interesting show on the Planet Green network called ‘WA$TED’. It is a reality show where the biggest wasters are counselled and try to reform themselves. The usual starting point seems to be, “if everyone lived this lifestyle (analyzed at the start of the episode) we would need 3 planets”. Society should/will get to the point that our free choices will not be tolerated if personal excess results in inequitable resource consumption. If this does not happen, Albert Einstein’s quote about fighting future wars with stones will become truth.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:31 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow: EPA should read like this..PHV PRIUS:EV Range: Up to 13 Miles Per Full ChargeEV MPH: Up to 60mphHybrid Mode: 48/50 MPGChevy Volt:EV Range: Up to 40 Miles Per Full ChargeEV MPH: Up to 90mphHybrid Mode: 48/50 MPGLEAF:EV Range: Up to 100 Miles Per Full ChargeEV MPH: Up to 90mphHybrid Mode: N/AAll depending on driver and driving conditions.Don’t try and blend the numbers.Keep it “KISS”.  (Quote)

    Agreed. The Volt requires a new “2-mode” classification. 40 miles on battery power, 50 MPG using gas.

    A combined MPG is simply impossible because a 42 mile trip and a 360 mile trip will yield totally different MPG results.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:39 pm)

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (1:51 pm)

    LauraM:
    Overbuild?If they’re going to build a bridge anyway, it doesn’t cost that much to make it stand up to a wide range in temperature.They already do it in areas with more widely ranging temperatures.It seems like a sensible precaution.  

    ========================

    But now you are asking government officials to act with logic and common sense………

    Do you really think it works that way????

    I guess I am a pessimist, because I sure don’t!


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:04 pm)

    I haven’t real *all** the post, but will comment anyway (g).

    This really fails the smell test! If CS mpg was good or even adequate, GM should be crowing about it. To hear that we “won’t hear it from them“, stinks on ice! WHY would anyone purchase a vehicle without knowing *all* the relevant metrics – especially at $450/month or $41K?
    I’m not feeling at all good about this folks.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    flmark

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:08 pm)

    LauraM: If you’re looking for suggestions, a native plant garden is much better than artificial turf. …My point is that it really does never end…  (Quote)

    Well, while I was addressing your last comment you generated this one. I stand by my previous response. But, this makes me want to add some things.

    First, the artificial turf is made of recycled plastic and used (largely) in places that I CAN’T do the shrubs -the city-owned swale out front. In other places, it is a feature- for variety, much as the paver patio and shell walkway. Unending shrubbery is boring.

    More importantly though is where you go on (and on and on) to. Yes, it is never ending. BUT. It is counterproductive to have the ultra-green people needling each other about the (relative) minutia. It is like watching physicists arguing about dark matter. If you are not onboard with something and watch two alleged ‘experts’ quibble, you tend to walk away and question the validity of the entire topic!

    You achieve little if that moderate person [I spoke of in the last comment] views you as a whack-job. My news about the plankton dying off is meant to get the attention of the average joe who doesn’t yet see the point. Your conclusion of ‘it never ends’ is enough to get that fellow shaking his head and saying, ‘why bother’?

    Your tone is a downer. I would prefer to point out all the ‘opportunities’ to make a difference. An LCD bulb is a better choice than a CFL, but if average joe has just upgraded his incandescent to CFL to be green, congratulate him, don’t discourage him with the shortcoming of how his choice could have been better. I tell you about my turf without extrapolating. You did not know that I had no greener alternative. We can’t put every detail here. As I seem to keep writing, Don’t Worry. Be Happy. Unending opportunities -not unending obstacles :)


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    Jim I

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:31 pm)

    Tagamet: I haven’t real *all** the post, but will comment anyway (g).This really fails the smell test! If CS mpg was good or even adequate, GM should be crowing about it. To hear that we “won’t hear it from them“, stinks on ice! WHY would anyone purchase a vehicle without knowing *all* the relevant metrics – especially at $450/month or $41K?
    I’m not feeling at all good about this folks.Be well,
    Tagamet  

    ============================

    The end is near!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Our resident optimist has gone to the dark side……..

    Woe is me……..


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:36 pm)

    flmark: We should really focus our influence on the moderates to start the self-examination process. Society can migrate its viewpoints- hopefully soon enough to head off calamity.

    I agree with you about people in the commune. But I don’t think that we can get anyone to do anything they don’t want to do. And if someone doesn’t care, then they basically don’t care. Nothing you or I do or say is going to make them care.

    flmark: You achieve little if that moderate person [I spoke of in the last comment] views you as a whack-job. My news about the plankton dying off is meant to get the attention of the average joe who doesn’t yet see the point. Your conclusion of ‘it never ends’ is enough to get that fellow shaking his head and saying, ‘why bother’?

    Well, that was kind of my point. It never does end. Which is why none of us are perfect. And none of us should judge anyone else. Even those who don’t care. Even those in hummers.

    flmark: I would prefer to point out all the ‘opportunities’ to make a difference

    I do think we can make a difference. Demand and supply–if enough people demand greener alternatives, and they become more available, more people will buy them. At some point, the greener product will, hopefully, become the default choice, and, even people who don’t care will buy it because it’s the one that’s most readily available. It’s a “virtuous cycle.” (Although there are definitely people who will look for the more eco-unfriendly alternative.)

    But I also think that means being realistic about what we do. And not accept the “green” label at face value. Seriously, how green is it to transport detergent from Belgium because it’s phosphate free? And those ecover tablets–each one is wrapped in plastic. That’s not “green” at all. You’re probably better off buying the regular detergent. (I’m not saying you don’t do the research. I’m just making a point.)

    Will it be enough, given the challenges? I hope so. But I really believe that to make a meaningful difference, we need government action. And that seems rather hard to come by in this country.


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    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:39 pm)

    kdawg:
    You’re correct and Baltimore pointed that out earlier, and when I originally posed this chart a week or so ago, i noted that betlow 40 miles it would be infinite.However Excel doesn’t like dividing by zero, i had to limit the range on the top of my chart, and i was doing this during my lunch time for 5 minutes.BUT, since it appears to bother so many, i will touch it up w/some paint shop pro, so next time I post it, it shows infinity.(OR GM could just make it).  

    Excel would be a problem to properly chart in any way. Dividing by zero is not permitted in mathematics in general because real numbers map onto a Cartesian graph as points on a plain. Infinity is not a point: it can’t be mapped. Try using a number like 1000. That will give an acceptable image and convey a reasonable message visually. I agree with you: GM could easily make a chart and include in an image of it on their website so we can copy and paste it.

    Your point of using the chart is a good one. A picture is worth a thousand words. But it still needs a little improvement. ;) At any rate, thanks for posting it! Perhaps GM will pick up on it.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:42 pm)

    unni: 60 mpg ?

    Not sure what you are asking, but if you extend the chart to the right to infinity, the line would eventually converge at 50mpg. 50mpg is just the figure i used in my equation. I’ll update the equation once i get the actual number.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:44 pm)

    Jim I: But now you are asking government officials to act with logic and common sense………

    Do you really think it works that way????

    I guess I am a pessimist, because I sure don’t!

    Well if government expects itself to mess things up, doesn’t want to think about anything, and is determined not to have a plan of any sort, then clearly not. After all, using heat resistant materials or strain gauges would mean they’re interfering in the “free markets.” Especially since they don’t want to give any credence whatsoever to the global warming extremists…


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:44 pm)

    MPG is the wrong way to display the fuel efficiency of a car. For a Gas car you want the number of gallons required to move the car for 1000 miles under “normal” driving conditions. For the Volt, you will need two numbers 1. How much gas did you burn in 1000 miles? and 2. How many Kwh did you feed into the battery? If you want further refinement, you can have numbers for primarily city vs. primarily highway driving.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:45 pm)

    kdawg: That’s not typically how I calculate my MPG, because i dont trust the gas gauge. I say fill it up, drive for 200 miles in CS mode, then fill it up again. You will know how much gas you used by how much you can put back into the tank.Instead of depleting the battery, you could also just put it in Mountain Mode, to prevent the battery from being used.  (Quote)

    I think you need to re-read the description of mountain mode. Per the original description, mountain mode doesn’t make the ICE run all the time, it instead starts the ICE sooner than in normal mode so a larger charge buffer is maintained in the battery. It also allows the ICE to charge the battery back up to a higher level before switching off. http://gm-volt.com/2010/05/05/chevy-volt-will-have-driver-selectable-mountain-mode/


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:48 pm)

    LauraM: Well, in my experience, people generally live up (or down) to people’s expectations. In other words, since we expect complete government incompetence, why are we surprised when we get it? Maybe if we started expecting them to be more competent, they would be. 

    True, expectations have a lot of influence, in my experience. In this case I am referring more to the opacity that Neal referred to that allows powerful people to hold on to power.

    Expectations have a big effect though, like when the most powerful people in an area drive Aveo’s and Civics and encourage colleagues to do the same because it looks bad for people on government salaries to fill the parking lots with expensive foreign sedans. No matter that our low expectations are directed at highly placed people with PhD.s, law degrees, and masters degrees from some of the most prestigious schools.

    Reminds me of a controversial building I saw when I was in college. The lobby had soaring ceilings great expanses of large windows and a beautiful, expensive looking floor covering. After complaints about the extravagance for a state university, the floor was replaced with linoleum. Likely at a far greater cost than the original floor.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:52 pm)

    I think the problem the EPA is having, is trying to come up w/something that will encompass all the PHEV’s to come. Sure separating the CS mode from the EV mode in the Volt is easy, but how would you do that in a plug-in Prius? The EV mode will be on & off so much, how do you calculate it? What speeds do you use? Do you allow regenerative braking into the equation? How do you calculate when the batteries are assisting the ICE? How do you calculate when just the gas engine is running or even set up that scenario w/out phyisically removing the battery from the drive train? (Note that’s why i asked for the Prius #’s earlier). I dont think “MPG” equation is as simple as you think, when you encompass all EV’s. I think the design of the Volt just happens to make this simple.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    I don’t understand all of the Bu—T about Gm not releasing an estimated MPG figure. All you willy nillies hollered when they said 230 MPG in City driving. It just so happens that is a good figure in the draft proposal for phev vehicles prepared in draft for the EPA in 2007. They didn’t publish a hiway MPG.

    If they published one now, you would be saying “The sky is falling–Gm is publishing a number that is bogus. Woo- Woo is me. Those sorry lying Bas—ds at GM.

    People-Get a life. The Federal Government is who is at fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Maybe GM is doing this to maybe get some government employee to look in their IN-Box to see if the plan drafted in 2007 is ok. They used it for varied and sundry Priuses but I guess that is different????????????. The draft is from the Advanced Vehicle testing facility in Idaho in conjunction with the EPA.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (2:59 pm)

    dwvoss: I think you need to re-read the description of mountain mode. Per the original description, mountain mode doesn’t make the ICE run all the time, it instead starts the ICE sooner than in normal mode so a larger charge buffer is maintained in the battery. It also allows the ICE to charge the battery back up to a higher level before switching off. http://gm-volt.com/2010/05/05/chevy-volt-will-have-driver-selectable-mountain-mode/

    OK, thanks. I think i was grouping it in with the Ampera’s “HOLD MODE” where you can prevent the battery from discharging.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (3:05 pm)

    #137 CorvetteGuy:
    Yes. Education is the key. The VOLT represents technology in a combination not used before. So, how does this look?  

    Nice graphic, CorvetteGuy.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    stas peterson

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (3:30 pm)

    Reality:

    The Gulf oil spill is dispersing as the oil is eaten by plankton. The fertilized plankton is providing more food for other fish up the food chain. Oceanographers and biologists with an axe to grind, will duly report that the Gulf is unlike before. Just like where the Exxon Valdez accident occurred. It has TOO MUCH life!!

    The mole volume of the entire atmosphere is less than the mole volume of 2 meters of the Ocean. IOW, you can’t move the acidity of the Oceans if the entire atmosphere was CO2 and it was all absorbed by the oceans. Librtards can’t count; they never learned how in school.

    Corals and other calcine animals, developed when the atmosphere contained 10,000 times as much CO2. So it’s no problem, unless you are a libtard fool, and can be brain laundered to believe literally anything.

    Honeybees are suffering from a virus. The virus has as much right to grow and to expand its range and compete as any other living organism. Like any other plague, the self-selection of immune specimens will breed resistant varieties of honeybee. Libtards don’t know real history so can’t be expected to see the shallowness of such chicken little-isms.

    Only a true libtard believes that on a planet 70% covered with water to a average depth of two miles or more, we can ever be truly water short. Only wasting money on ridiculous libtard tomfoolery pre-empts the money to desalinate the ocean waters to provide fresh water where needed.

    The Volt will still provide an annual mileage figure of 230 mpge and act to reduce national petroleum usage that much. The whole purpose of such vehicles are to reduce petroleum usage and it does. The SAE J1711 specification was what produced the 230 mpge. The Revised J1711 still produces such a figure for the same driving cycle, but now includes other driving cycles, too. but the EPA uses the same driving cycle in its tests, as the original J1711 used.

    Is it surprising that the 20,000 striong EPA can’t calculate or measure what the mileage is for the mandated EPA Sticker? Or is it that the Indulgence sellers, the the politicians, have accepted campaign contribution (bribes) to sabotage the Volt, probably from Toyota and Ford?

    I suggest we adopt the Ralph Nader prescription for government bureaucracies. Kill them totally every 20 years and recreate them after a year, if needed; not allowing any old bureacucrats in the new organization, to prevent empire building and to reinvigorate them.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (3:34 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: kdawg:
    You’re correct and Baltimore pointed that out earlier, and when I originally posed this chart a week or so ago, i noted that betlow 40 miles it would be infinite.However Excel doesn’t like dividing by zero, i had to limit the range on the top of my chart, and i was doing this during my lunch time for 5 minutes.BUT, since it appears to bother so many, i will touch it up w/some paint shop pro, so next time I post it, it shows infinity.(OR GM could just make it).  
    Excel would be a problem to properly chart in any way. Dividing by zero is not permitted in mathematics in general because real numbers map onto a Cartesian graph as points on a plain. Infinity is not a point: it can’t be mapped. Try using a number like 1000. That will give an acceptable image and convey a reasonable message visually. I agree with you: GM could easily make a chart and include in an image of it on their website so we can copy and paste it.
    Your point of using the chart is a good one. A picture is worth a thousand words. But it still needs a little improvement. At any rate, thanks for posting it! Perhaps GM will pick up on it.
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    The chart is great as it is. It’s a very good approximation for per trip miles per gallon. Instantaneously. Averaged over a point. Seems like there should be an inflection on the Volt curve at (40.250) though, not (50.250). And instead of dividing by 0, what about .0001 or something that Excel sees as really small?

    Sometimes there is too much information given to be used in the real world though. Beyond understanding the Volt conceptually, how would my persnickety corrections help me understand fuel consumption in a volt. If I know I will be using less than 38 gallons a year and can see the instantaneous and long term efficiency graphics on the screen then more information, like trying to correct kdawgs chart, likely will not help me.


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    RVD

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (3:36 pm)

    Obviously they can not get 50 MPG, therefore hiding it.
    Since in CS mode Volt is no different than Prius, EPA label must be required.
    Just like anybody else GM should play by the rules, not bend them in its favor.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:09 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: Excel would be a problem to properly chart in any way. Dividing by zero is not permitted in mathematics in general because real numbers map onto a Cartesian graph as points on a plain. Infinity is not a point: it can’t be mapped. Try using a number like 1000. That will give an acceptable image and convey a reasonable message visually. I agree with you: GM could easily make a chart and include in an image of it on their website so we can copy and paste it.Your point of using the chart is a good one. A picture is worth a thousand words. But it still needs a little improvement. At any rate, thanks for posting it! Perhaps GM will pick up on it.Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  (Quote)

    Don’t graph the mpg, graph the fuel consumed.

    Miles along the X axis, gallons along the Y axis.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:13 pm)

    stas peterson: Only a true libtard believes that on a planet 70% covered with water to a average depth of two miles or more, we can ever be truly water short. Only wasting money on ridiculous libtard tomfoolery pre-empts the money to desalinate the ocean waters to provide fresh water where needed.

    Yes, we have plenty of sea water. I invite you to demonstrate how well it works by drinking it, rather than fresh water.

    Your survivors can let us know how well that worked out for you.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:13 pm)

    jeffhre: If I know I will be using less than 38 gallons a year and can see the instantaneous and long term efficiency graphics on the screen then more information, like trying to correct kdawgs chart, likely will not help me.

    I should make a chart comparing gallons per year vs. daily mileage driving habits.. that wouldnt be too hard (i still run into that infinity/0 problem at 40 miles or less per day)


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    GM Volt Fan

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:27 pm)

    Why can’t GM just provide an estimate of the miles per gallon as a range or something … with a disclaimer saying “your mileage may vary” based on how hard you drive it and so forth? Say 42 -50 mpg or whatever it is.


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    LauraM

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:27 pm)

    stas peterson: Honeybees are suffering from a virus. The virus has as much right to grow and to expand its range and compete as any other living organism. Like any other plague, the self-selection of immune specimens will breed resistant varieties of honeybee. Libtards don’t know real history so can’t be expected to see the shallowness of such chicken little-isms.

    Well, this “libtard” is kind of attached to her food supply. Will the virus “that has as much right to grow and expand it’s range as any other living organism” pollinate our crops for us?

    stas peterson: Only a true libtard believes that on a planet 70% covered with water to a average depth of two miles or more, we can ever be truly water short. Only wasting money on ridiculous libtard tomfoolery pre-empts the money to desalinate the ocean waters to provide fresh water where needed.

    And where do you suggest getting the massive amounts of energy required to desalinate water on the scale necessary? Or do you also believe that the world’s oil reserves are unlimited?


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    Loboc

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:28 pm)

    Boy, I sure missed a lot the last couple days while on vacation in an e- and i-free zone. (very liberating, but, painful)

    Still reading through everything, but, the upshot is that people are disappointed about the pricing and still want GM to give out their closely-held trade secrets about CS mode mileage.

    I still want a Volt and still don’t care what CS mode mileage is; because I won’t use any CS.

    Some interesting tidbits released such as 95 octane gas needed. Everything else is as expected.

    Also, some more rants about AGW. Sheesh, give it a rest already. CO2 and Oxygen are both lethal in sufficient quantities. Just because some government agency says that CO2 (a naturally-occurring gas) is now a ‘pollutant’ depends upon if you’re a plant or an animal. We gotta worry about the other crap we are putting in the environment like raw crude oil and nitrous oxides that are really doing the damage.

    We need to reduce the number of humans and any damage to the planet will also be reduced. I’m thinking somewhere around 1900′s levels of humans is sustainable on this planet. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:31 pm)

    I’m sure some people will think that plugging the Volt in powers a miniature refinery in the car that combines hydrogen and carbon dioxide from the air and makes gas to fill the tank up at night, but the result is the same, a tank that stays more or less full after doing a lot of driving. That’s the thing that will get reported by everybody that owns one.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:34 pm)

    srschrier: http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/2011-nissan-leaf-first-drive-road-test-review/#comments

    Hey Lyle,

    Why don’t you push GM for this info. It may suffice for the people looking for a real world example of what the Volt did on one occasion, but not that it would be typical of every driver.

    At least then we can get on to another subject other than how many “miles per gallon of gas burned” for an ELECTRIC CAR! Redundant topic, since most looking to purchase this car claim that they will drive less than 40 miles/day!

    GO EV!!!


  203. 203
    Future EV Driver

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:36 pm)

    Hey Lyle,
    Why don’t you push GM for this info. It may suffice for the people looking for a real world example of what the Volt did on one occasion, but not that it would be typical of every driver.
    At least then we can get on to another subject other than how many “miles per gallon of gas burned” for an ELECTRIC CAR! Redundant topic, since most looking to purchase this car claim that they will drive less than 40 miles/day!
    GO EV!!!

    srschrier: The GM Volt test engineers doing the cross country drives surely know the amount of gas and CSM MPGs under a wide range of road conditions.With the Volt only weeks away from dealerships why not share some of the CSM MPG test drive results with us, the customers, before we decide to buy or lease?Example, “During our freedom drive from Austin to New York City we only used (fill in the blank) gallons and averaged (fill in the blank) MPG”.
    Early adopters will provide more CSM information but it’s no substitute for providing customers upfront with results from GM’s own Volt test drives.  


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:39 pm)

    jeffhre: True, expectations have a lot of influence, in my experience. In this case I am referring more to the opacity that Neal referred to that allows powerful people to hold on to power.

    Oh. Agreed. There’s definitely something broken about our current system. I wish I knew a way to fix it. Or, more importantly, that someone in a position to do so, would fix it. I’m at the point where I think banning any and all political ads from TV might be the only solution….

    jeffhre: Expectations have a big effect though, like when the most powerful people in an area drive Aveo’s and Civics and encourage colleagues to do the same because it looks bad for people on government salaries to fill the parking lots with expensive foreign sedans. No matter that our low expectations are directed at highly placed people with PhD.s, law degrees, and masters degrees from some of the most prestigious schools.

    Well, I can’t say I have a problem with people frowning on conspicuous consumption. In whatever form. And, honestly? Government officials shouldn’t be driving expensive foreign sedans. I don’t care how educated or intelligent they are.

    We’d all be a lot better of if CEOs followed their example.

    jeffhre: Reminds me of a controversial building I saw when I was in college. The lobby had soaring ceilings great expanses of large windows and a beautiful, expensive looking floor covering. After complaints about the extravagance for a state university, the floor was replaced with linoleum. Likely at a far greater cost than the original floor.

    Now that’s ridiculous and destructive. Especially if the original floor had historic value.


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    evnow

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:41 pm)

    In other news … the spiritual leader of the right wing has taken a dislike for Volt.

    Report: Rush Limbaugh tears into Chevy Volt, fails to understand how it works

    http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/29/report-rush-limbaugh-tears-into-chevy-volt-fails-to-understand/

    “As far as we know, Limbaugh also made no mention of the more palatable $350-per-month lease deal available for the Volt.

    Limbaugh also ripped into the Volt’s 40 mile range, implying that the 40 miles of range from the battery is all that is available. He was either unaware of or chose to ignore the fact that in charge-sustaining mode,…”


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:45 pm)

    Charlie H: Then check out a slightly earlier article, “The Montford Delusion” to learn why the idea of fixing AGW gets no traction.

    And then do some more research and find out that man made global warming is not settled science and the consensus is a dream made up by Al Gore. Peer reviewed papers have shot holes in many aspects of the theory.

    http://allpainnogain.cfact.org/default.asp

    http://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2010/07/curry_jumps_the_shark.php?utm_source=sbhomepage&utm_medium=link&utm_content=channellink


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:46 pm)

    LauraM: And where do you suggest getting the massive amounts of energy required to desalinate water on the scale necessary? Or do you also believe that the world’s oil reserves are unlimited?  

    Roy H: LFTRs can power big ships, provide heat to extract oil from tar sands, be used to de-salinate sea water and power all the world with electricity at a lower cost than anything except hydro power, yes cheaper than coal.


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    RB

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:56 pm)

    17 flmark:Exponential population increase + collapse of sustenance=massive die-off
    (oh, and your 401K won’t be worth squat!)… The average person here knows that the Earth holds twice as many people as it did when he/she was born.


    Looking forward, we see the UN population projections (best in the world) give as their low-variant projection (the one taken most seriously) the following for population in the developed world, of which the USA is one country

    Year Population
    2010 1 237 227
    2015 1 244 511
    2020 1 242 195
    2025 1 232 183
    2030 1 218 619
    2035 1 201 672
    2040 1 181 140
    2045 1 155 989
    2050 1 126 265

    The population is tablulated in thousands.

    For our region of the world the population is projected to decline from 1.237 billion to 1.126 billion, or roughly a decrease of 100 million people. Note that the mothers of most of the people to be born by 2050 are alive now, so the numbers of potential mothers does not require a projection. If we have a problem with population over that time period, it is population decline, with a much higher fraction being older people.

    Please correct your information about population. What happened in the past was a unique time period that will not be repeated. There is not going to be an exponential population increase.
    http://esa.un.org/unpp/p2k0data.asp


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:59 pm)

    LauraM: Well, this “libtard” is kind of attached to her food supply. Will the virus “that has as much right to grow and expand it’s range as any other living organism” pollinate our crops for us? And where do you suggest getting the massive amounts of energy required to desalinate water on the scale necessary? Or do you also believe that the world’s oil reserves are unlimited?  (Quote)

    I was hoping the troll’s comments would be quickly voted out of existence. Not happening fast enough. Obviously, only instigation there, no education. Since his comment will likely be invisible soon, I’ll just add to what you stated. The following is directed to the troll:

    1) No one is sure WHAT is causing Colony Collapse Disorder and even if it is a virus, so is HIV. So you are stating that we should just let HIV run its course, right?

    2) Not only does desalination take lots of energy, theory works better than reality. The largest desalination plant in this country is nearby me in Tampa. Since you don’t get our local news (I am not sure you can read anyway or you would know that some species have not yet returned, in appreciable numbers, to Prince William Sound- twenty freakin years after the spill), you ought to know that this plant has had nothing but problems since the day it opened up. And oh yeah, there is that part about most of those who depend on glacial melt are THOUSANDS OF MILES FROM THE SEA.

    Sorry to hijack your comment, Laura. Just wanted to expand on what you said.


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    Loboc

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (4:59 pm)

    Tagamet: I haven’t real *all** the post, but will comment anyway (g).This really fails the smell test! If CS mpg was good or even adequate, GM should be crowing about it. To hear that we “won’t hear it from them“, stinks on ice! WHY would anyone purchase a vehicle without knowing *all* the relevant metrics – especially at $450/month or $41K?
    I’m not feeling at all good about this folks.Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Use the force, Luke. Breath in, then out. Repeat.

    For someone buying a 40k+ car, do they really give a hoot if the gas mileage is 40 vs 43mpg? Nope. We care about prestige and exclusivity more than anything else. With 500k people competing to buy 10k cars, Volt is definitely exclusive.

    Like I said a long, long time ago. This car needs to be compared to other $40k cars like BMW 3-series.

    Lets see what the orders look like for the first 6 months. GM will be scrambling to make more of their new babies. (I mean cash cows).


  211. 211
    Charlie H

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:03 pm)

    kdawg: I should make a chart comparing gallons per year vs. daily mileage driving habits.. that wouldnt be too hard (i still run into that infinity/0 problem at 40 miles or less per day)  (Quote)

    Well, Charlie and kdawg each drive just about 10,900 miles per year, averaging 30 miles/day. Kdawg used no gas at all but Charlie used about 85 gallons.

    220 days times 10 miles and 145 days times 60 miles for Charlie
    220 days time 40 miles and 145 days times 14 miles for kdawg.

    So, what’s the “right” figure going to be on your chart? If I look at your chart and conclude I’ll need no gas, I’m in for a rude shock.

    EPA Label:

    EV Range
    CS Mode City mpg
    CS Mode Hwy mpg

    Complete information for any consumer. This is simple. The problem is, it doesn’t allow GM to claim EPA-sanctioned triple-digit fuel economy. Of course, that’s only a problem if the EPA’s real job is to do GM’s marketing for them, right?


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:06 pm)

    Loboc: We need to reduce the number of humans and any damage to the planet will also be reduced. I’m thinking somewhere around 1900’s levels of humans is sustainable on this planet. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

    Lower population levels would absolutely help make our life style sustainable. But how do you suggest we do that? Have a mass die off?


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:07 pm)

    Following up on #204, here is similar data for the population of China for 2010 to 2051, from the same source.

    Year Population
    2010 1 354 146
    2015 1 383 177
    2020 1 398 834
    2025 1 398 753
    2030 1 387 602
    2035 1 366 162
    2040 1 333 867
    2045 1 290 398
    2050 1 236 959

    Note that the Chinese population is projected to decline, not increase at all, much less in exponential fashion.


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    Anderson

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:12 pm)

    Disappointed that GM executives don’t seem to have the b**lls to simply tell us what kind of MPG they are getting when the range extender becomes the sole source of energy.

    Also, I read with interest some of the speculative postings on Global Warming and what we can and should do about it. My take is that Global Warming, in the end, could potentially end up being the result of some cyclical natural process, and not so much influenced by human actions. Our scientific knowledge regarding climate is so limited that a lot of this hysteria (in a few years) may turn up to have been just that: hysteria.

    Having said that, we still need to do our best to not trash this planet and to use its resources as smartly as we possibly can.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:23 pm)

    51 Rashiid Amul: This is what scares me.
    The ICE doesn’t have to do whole lot as I understand it.
    So I don’t understand why it is so low. I agree with your number, I just don’t understand why.
    Like the price, the answer to this question is going to sting as well I’m afraid.  


    A good estimate can be found from the mileage of the 2010 Honda Civic
    34 (Est) mpg Hwy, 26 (Est) mpg City (not Hybrid)
    45 (Est) mpg Hwy, 40 (Est) mpg City (Hybrid)

    Volt will be between these values.
    Volt has a battery that can be used to gain some hybrid advantages, but it is not optimized for CS mode. Volt is a car of almost exactly the same size. Volt weighs more, though.

    My guess is that Volt will follow the Honda civic hybrid values, less 10%, in CS mode, so about 40 mpg hwy, 36 city.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:24 pm)

    RB: — of which the USA is one country…Please correct your information…There is not going to be an exponential population increase.http://esa.un.org/unpp/p2k0data.asp  (Quote)

    First off, where did I say I was only talking of this country? Demographics have shown that many (advanced) societies are indeed in population decline. I don’t dispute that. BUT GLOBAL population is projected BY THE UN to grow until probably after most writing here are dead. And why did you decide to focus on one word (and by the way, ‘exponential’ has certainly been the applicable word of historical FACT, since moving forward, we can only GUESS)? I will agree in concept that mankind cannot continue exponential growth and expect the earth’s resource suppy to follow. The point I made was that there are lots of us now, will be lots more, even, as we move into the next few decades and our, thus far, dependable resource chain is showing us signs of strain. If billions of people rely on a water source that is expected to disappear soon…well, where do you go with that? Forget the word “exponential”, use the word “linear” if you want. You obviously just plain old missed the point!


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    Loboc: For someone buying a 40k+ car, do they really give a hoot if the gas mileage is 40 vs 43mpg? Nope. We care about prestige and exclusivity more than anything else. With 500k people competing to buy 10k cars, Volt is definitely exclusive.

    I could not disagree more. Look at Leno’s comments. I don’t expect many will buy this relatively “normal” looking and driving car for the exclusivity of it’s inerds. For me it is about reducing gas and moving the tech along. Perhaps I’m being overly myopic but I’m thinking these will be the primary motivators for many buyers. Sure, if the buyer hardly drives beyond 40 miles per day the CS mileage won’t matter to them but for everyone else it will matter.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:29 pm)

    RB: —A good estimate can be found from the mileage of the 2010 Honda Civic Hybrid45 (Est) mpg Hwy, 40 (Est) mpg City (Hybrid)Why should Volt be lower? It’s a car of almost exactly the same size. Volt does weigh more, though. so I’d expect values 10% lower for that reason. There is no reason that I can think of why Volt should be higher, in CS mode.  (Quote)

    Much higher electric component in the city with much steadier power required from the ICE. Highway driving, not much other than better aero, low power accessories, low rolling resistance tires, and a little better power variation.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:29 pm)

    Who cares? You know it will go 40 miles on all electric. That’s good for 75% of the commutes in this country. In a couple months when a few thousand VOLTs are on the road don’t be surprised if you hear of MPG’s well over 100mpg routinely…. and yes that’s double the mpg of any car on the road today.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:35 pm)

    Charlie H: 220 days times 10 miles and 145 days times 60 miles for Charlie
    220 days time 40 miles and 145 days times 14 miles for kdawg.

    Those are rather erratic driving cycles? I think most people know their typical daily drive. The idea was to create a tool to help people figure out how much gas they would use per year. I have no problem w/also giving them the AER and the CS #’s, but like I posted earlier, its gets a bit more complicated to compare apples to apples when you incorporate parallel PHEV’s if you just look at those #’s.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:40 pm)

    koz: Sure, if the buyer hardly drives beyond 40 miles per day the CS mileage won’t matter to them but for everyone else it will matter.

    “Everyone else” only equals 25% of US drivers. I’m guessing less for other countries.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:41 pm)

    Tagamet: This really fails the smell test! If CS mpg was good or even adequate, GM should be crowing about it. To hear that we “won’t hear it from them“, stinks on ice! WHY would anyone purchase a vehicle without knowing *all* the relevant metrics – especially at $450/month or $41K?
    I’m not feeling at all good about this folks.

    That’s pretty much it, unfortunately. Just as all indications pointed to a high MSRP, so all indications point to a relatively low MPG. My guess for a while has been 37 MPG in CS mode but it may be lower. As mentioned, CR says the Volt has a 9 gallon gas tank and GM is sticking with the 300 mile in CS mode. Do the math and you get 33.34 MPG.

    My guess is they want people ordering before they release this number. Given that, as mentioned above, a small company can do a conversion which will take a Prius 40 miles in EV mode, even at highway speeds (better than Toyota is getting), and given that the converted Prius will get 50 MPG in CS mode, some people might not be willing to pay over $41K for the Volt. CJS might be tempted to convert a used Prius that would use less gas for half.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:42 pm)

    212 flmark: historical FACT, since moving forward, we can only GUESS)?


    Many of the topics about which you are exercised have large unknown factors.

    Population, at least between 2010 and 2050, is not one of those. Population can be projected on the basis of considerable factual information. As babies all require mothers we do not have to guess the population of storks (smile). As these mothers are alive today, for the most part, we can count them. We also know about how many babies each mother has, over her lifetime, for most parts of the world. Generally that number is declining or stable at a low level.

    So while a population projection is an estimate, it is based on a firm foundation of demographic facts. In most of the world there will not be a significant population increase between 2010 and 2050 (not exponential and not linear, but rather a decline in total numbers), and there is no identified reason to expect one ever again. There will be a shift in the age profile, with more older people. Some countries, such as Japan and especially Russia, are declining in population at a rate high enough to be scary, i.e., about a million per year from a population total less than that of the USA.

    The exceptional area is southern Africa. On one level it now has a high birthrate, mainly because means of family planning are not yet available to many females. That is changing rapidly. Southern
    Africa also has a high incidence of HIV/AIDS, so there are many tragic deaths at young age. It is hard to speculate how that will turn out insofar as population, even over the relatively near time of the next 40 years, so that is where the uncertainty lies. Those forecasts that project world population increasing do so by forecasting a big increase in Southern Africa, where the quality of the forecast is lower than elsewhere.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:49 pm)

    Loboc: Also, some more rants about AGW. Sheesh, give it a rest already. CO2 and Oxygen are both lethal in sufficient quantities. Just because some government agency says that CO2 (a naturally-occurring gas) is now a ‘pollutant’ depends upon if you’re a plant or an animal.

    Bringing up and then providing commenting on AGW is probably not “giving it a rest”.

    BTW it was the Supreme Court which interpreted the statue and found CO2 to be a pollutant. The EPA is just doing what the Supreme Court ordered it to do.


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    RB

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:53 pm)

    214 koz: Much higher electric component in the city with much steadier power required from the ICE. Highway driving, not much other than better aero, low power accessories, low rolling resistance tires, and a little better power variation.  


    Using the Honda Civic for comparison is setting a high bar, as it is a car that has been optimized over time by people who are very good at what they do. No doubt Volt also has been carefully optimized, but one cannot optimize for everything simultaneously, and the major achievement of Volt is the 40 mile AER.

    With respect to CS mode, if Volt can exceed the regular Honda Civic ICE car and get within 10% of the Honda Civic Hybrid, I think Volt will be doing exceptionally well.


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    Roy H

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:54 pm)

    stas peterson: Reality:The Gulf oil spill is dispersing as the oil is eaten by plankton.The fertilized plankton is providing more food for other fish up the food chain.Oceanographers and biologists with an axe to grind, will duly report that the Gulf is unlike before.Just like where the Exxon Valdez accident occurred.It has TOO MUCH life!!

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill This accident happened in 1989.
    “Despite the extensive cleanup attempts, less than ten percent of the oil was recovered and a study conducted by NOAA determined that as of early 2007 more than 26 thousand U.S. gallons (22,000 imp gal; 98,000 L) of oil remain in the sandy soil of the contaminated shoreline, declining at a rate of less than 4% per year.[19][20]”
    “Almost 20 years after the spill, a team of scientists at the University of North Carolina found that the effects are lasting far longer than expected.[24] The team estimates some shoreline Arctic habitats may take up to 30 years to recover.”
    From: http://www.evostc.state.ak.us/recovery/status.cfm
    Most ocean species except Pacific Herring and Guillemots Pigeons have recovered, however there is still oil in the area, and there was NO mention of any increase of life beyond pre-1989 levels.
    Where do you get your information???

    The mole volume of the entire atmosphere is less than the mole volume of 2 meters of the Ocean.IOW, you can’t move the acidity of the Oceans if the entire atmosphere was CO2 and it was all absorbed by the oceans. Librtards can’t count; they never learned how in school.Corals and other calcine animals, developed when the atmosphere contained 10,000 times as much CO2. So it’s no problem, unless you are a libtard fool, and can be brain laundered to believe literally anything.

    Again proof? The only time I know of when CO2 levels were significantly higher was 50 million years ago, and then only slightly higher, even 500 million years ago it was 20 times higher.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth's_atmosphere.
    Certainly there was life in the oceans then but I don’t about coral.

    Honeybees are suffering from a virus.The virus has as much right to grow and to expand its range and compete as any other living organism.Like any other plague, the self-selection of immune specimens will breed resistant varieties of honeybee. Libtards don’t know real history so can’t be expected to see the shallowness of such chicken little-isms.

    Where do you get this information? I went looking and all I found was links like this:
    http://environment.about.com/od/biodiversityconservation/a/honeybees.htm
    They think it is a combination of global warming, pesticides and possibly radiation from cell phone towers. No mention of a virus.

    Only a true libtard believes that on a planet 70% covered with water to a average depth of two miles or more, we can ever be truly water short.Only wasting money on ridiculous libtard tomfoolery pre-empts the money to desalinate the ocean waters to provide fresh water where needed.

    I agree it is possible to desalinate ocean water, just not cost effective at this time (see my earlier post about LFTRs). The other problem is large amounts of water are required in places far away from oceans, and cost of shipping or piping is huge.

    The Volt will still provide an annual mileage figure of 230 mpge and act to reduce national petroleum usage that much.The whole purpose of such vehicles are to reduce petroleum usage and it does.The SAE J1711 specification was what produced the 230 mpge.The Revised J1711 still produces such a figure for the same driving cycle, but now includes other driving cycles, too.but the EPA uses the same driving cycle in its tests, as the original J1711 used.
    Is it surprising that the 20,000 striong EPA can’t calculate or measure what the mileage is for the mandated EPA Sticker?Or is it that the Indulgence sellers, the the politicians, have accepted campaign contribution (bribes) to sabotage the Volt, probably from Toyota and Ford?
    I suggest we adopt the Ralph Nader prescription for government bureaucracies. Kill them totally every 20 years and recreate them after a year, if needed; not allowing any old bureacucrats in the new organization, to prevent empire building and to reinvigorate them.  

    Well at least we agree on killing politicians.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (5:56 pm)

    nuclearboy: And then do some more research and find out that man made global warming is not settled science and the consensus is a dream made up by Al Gore. Peer reviewed papers have shot holes in many aspects of the theory.http://allpainnogain.cfact.org/default.asphttp://scienceblogs.com/stoat/2010/07/curry_jumps_the_shark.php?utm_source=sbhomepage&utm_medium=link&utm_content=channellink  (Quote)

    I said this in item 120. “And it doesn’t take long into your (or all the other) putrid diatribes before you bring up Al Gore’s name.” Again you prove me right. The language of those who continue to malign the concept is always filled with hostility (“Dream made up by Al Gore”). Take a look at WHY you believe that global warming is a myth. If 7 out of 10 indicators point in one direction, you look for the 3 that don’t. Isn’t it more PRUDENT to do something if it looks like there is a problem emerging?

    You are in such a minority that the world is changing around you and you still fight it. Here are a couple of headlines; there are many more.

    The Northwest passage will soon be navigable to commercial shipping
    http://www.worldandi.com/subscribers/feature_detail.asp?num=24655
    and the Northeast passage is already open
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6832885.ece

    Get over Al Gore. For crying out loud, you appear to be a nuke (based on your self-assigned moniker). Rickover would have canned you!


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:02 pm)

    DonC: Given that, as mentioned above, a small company can do a conversion which will take a Prius 40 miles in EV mode, even at highway speeds (better than Toyota is getting), and given that the converted Prius will get 50 MPG in CS mode, some people might not be willing to pay over $41K for the Volt. CJS might be tempted to convert a used Prius that would use less gas for half.

    What is the cost of a loaded Prius after this conversion? Is it less than 33.5K? Is your warranty toast or does the small company give you 8 years coverage?


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:04 pm)

    LauraM: Lower population levels would absolutely help make our life style sustainable. But how do you suggest we do that? Have a mass die off?  

    The good news is that the population explosion is over. Put a fork in it. High birth rates have been reduced by economic development in places such as China, India, and Indonesia. Populations will continue to rise since there is a huge cohort of women of child bearing age in the pipeline, and there isn’t anything that is going to prevent them from having children, but after that there isn’t much of an issue with exploding populations.

    In some places the problem is going to be negative population growth.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:11 pm)

    RB: —Population can be projected …  (Quote)

    Man, you just don’t get it. The point was about supply (resources) and demand (people). YOU sent me off to look at UN information and they state that they expect there to be more and more of us until 2075. I told you to get over the word “exponential” if you like. The “Can’t see the forest for the trees” adage was written for you. I am done with you.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:24 pm)

    #191 jeffhre:
    The chart is great as it is. It’s a very good approximation for per trip miles per gallon. Instantaneously. Averaged over a point. Seems like there should be an inflection on the Volt curve at (40.250) though, not (50.250). And instead of dividing by 0, what about .0001 or something that Excel sees as really small?Sometimes there is too much information given to be used in the real world though. Beyond understanding the Volt conceptually, how would my persnickety corrections help me understand fuel consumption in a volt. If I know I will be using less than 38 gallons a year and can see the instantaneous and long term efficiency graphics on the screen then more information, like trying to correct kdawgs chart, likely will not help me.  

    I quess you can’t be helped. You ignore the point I made about the graph being incorrect. You misquote my post in #180 making it look like I said what kdawg said. For your information, I will repeat what I said. “You can’t divide by zero.” Kdawg understands that it is impossible to do so.

    Kdawg, if I’m wrong on this please chime in: You posted the chart so others could see how the mpg would be influenced by combining electric traction with internal combustion traction.

    But we know it’s all about you, jeffhre. I, just hope that my post helped someone else to understand why you DON’T divide by 0! I’m sure that others can understand how one might realize extremely high mpg if they use AER and very little gasoline. But one things for sure, a graph helps everyone see the difference.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:25 pm)

    kdawg: What is the cost of a loaded Prius after this conversion? Is it less than 33.5K? Is your warranty toast or does the small company give you 8 years coverage?

    Damn dude, you were hella close to the price…..

    Prius base: 22,800.00
    Conversion kit:
    Premium Prius 10KW LiFePO4: 11,695.00 (with installation included)
    https://junglemotors.com/Plug-In_Conversion.php

    Total: $34,495.00

    Of course that is their very high end upgrade/mod.

    Yes, they will warrant the batt pack. Probably not for 8 years but if you really want to know I’d give them a call.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:38 pm)

    #193 Charlie H:
    Don’t graph the mpg, graph the fuel consumed.Miles along the X axis, gallons along the Y axis.  

    In mathematics, the y-axis shows the dependent variable while the x-axis shows the independent variable. The MPG depends on the amount of fuel consumed, and depending upon the engine efficiency, you get different MPG ratings. That is the purpose of the EPA label: to let buyer know which car is more efficient. The number of gallons is not dependent on the millage.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:38 pm)

    @228

    Ooops, I just realized you said “Loaded Prius”, my bad. I always look at the base model of cars. That’s just me, I hate buying more crap in a trim so I just always buy base models.
    I’m pretty sure a loaded one would be a boatload more.

    /yeah, i’m a cheapo.
    //fyi, I added dashes in my name cuz my posts kept getting modded…..


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (6:39 pm)

    Roy H: “Despite the extensive cleanup attempts, less than ten percent of the oil was recovered and a study conducted by NOAA determined that as of early 2007 more than 26 thousand U.S. gallons (22,000 imp gal; 98,000 L) of oil remain in the sandy soil of the contaminated shoreline, declining at a rate of less than 4% per year.[19][20]”
    “Almost 20 years after the spill, a team of scientists at the University of North Carolina found that the effects are lasting far longer than expected.[24] The team estimates some shoreline Arctic habitats may take up to 30 years to recover.”

    Which is exactly why I haven’t knowingly purchased Exxon or Mobile gas in years.
    BP may be next. I haven’t decided yet. But as you can tell, my boycott hasn’t really hurt them any.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:02 pm)

    LauraM: Well, in my experience, people generally live up (or down) to people’s expectations. In other words, since we expect complete government incompetence, why are we surprised when we get it? Maybe if we started expecting them to be more competent, they would be.

    I agree with you LauraM. That is why it is so important to thoroughly question a candidate for office before you vote for him/her. We have the power to vote them out of office/ Hopefully, those elected into office will get the message. If we make it know that the next time they run for office and they haven’t kept the promises they made when running for office, they will not get your vote, eventually politicans will change. Or otherwise die of old age. Equally, we must examine the complete record of legislation to see if that elected official attempted to honestly pass legislation that we supported and that he/she was not impeded by others in office.

    One would be surprised if there was a preponderance of optimism: it would result in positive things being done. By being pessimistic, we are thinking negatively and not getting motivated to change for the better. I am a progressive and expect the candidates we choose to move this nation in a positive direction to improve conditions for all citizens. What disturbs me is those Congressmen that vote nay on each piece of legislation that will help the citizens of this country to lead constructive lives. It’s the old divide and concur game. If we carefully examine each candidate for office, we will be far less fooled by what they do while in office. Be Cautious, Be Informed, and Vote for candidates that are Progressive!

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:10 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: BP may be next. I haven’t decided yet. But as you can tell, my boycott hasn’t really hurt them any.  (Quote)

    Humor is at its best when we are suddenly taken from the serious to the unexpectedly absurd (“I’m not joking; and don’t call me Shirley”) LOL LOL LOL Thank you for the comedy relief. I will join you at that BP boycott tomorrow. THEN they will SHIRLEY notice us.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:12 pm)

    Tagamet: If CS mpg was good or even adequate, GM should be crowing about it. To hear that we “won’t hear it from them“, stinks on ice! WHY would anyone purchase a vehicle without knowing *all* the relevant metrics…

    As a 2+ year follower of Volt development I agree that GM management is disconnected with the working class (Chevy buyers). And surprisingly, they are disconnected with market share and product flow. Now that the Volt is on the market for $41k, the next bullet GM will fire is with the Cruze. After this, maybe a 2 mode Buick of some kind.
    Is it posible that GM went very high on the Volt price during the small production run of 10,000 vehicles. With the intent to recover R&D cost and allow time to reduce their battery manufacturing cost. And then price the 2012 Volt at under $40k?
    As it stands now, this is the only bright side I can see here.

    Feel like stepping away from gm volt dot com for a while. Went to a Honda lot today to check pricing. No plug ins available yet. Although they do offer a 5 speed hybrid with sport/econo modes. Will need to think on this.

    =D-Volt


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:25 pm)

    Future EV Driver: …Redundant topic, since most looking to purchase this car claim that they will drive less than 40 miles/day!

    GO EV!!!

    That would make it an irrelevant topic. Or even interesting topic. But not redundant topic. (just teasing) you’re right, but it *is* important to a lot of folks. JMO.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:29 pm)

    Jim I: Tagamet: I haven’t real *all** the post, but will comment anyway (g).This really fails the smell test! If CS mpg was good or even adequate, GM should be crowing about it. To hear that we “won’t hear it from them“, stinks on ice! WHY would anyone purchase a vehicle without knowing *all* the relevant metrics – especially at $450/month or $41K?
    I’m not feeling at all good about this folks.Be well,
    Tagamet

    ============================

    The end is near!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Our resident optimist has gone to the dark side……..

    Woe is me……..

    (Sound of single -large caliber- gun shot)

    You made a lot of good points today.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:39 pm)

    evnow: In other news … the spiritual leader of the right wing has taken a dislike for Volt.Report: Rush Limbaugh tears into Chevy Volt, fails to understand how it workshttp://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/29/report-rush-limbaugh-tears-into-chevy-volt-fails-to-understand/“As far as we know, Limbaugh also made no mention of the more palatable $350-per-month lease deal available for the Volt.
    Limbaugh also ripped into the Volt’s 40 mile range, implying that the 40 miles of range from the battery is all that is available. He was either unaware of or chose to ignore the fact that in charge-sustaining mode,…”  

    That’s simply not true. I heard the broadcast live. Check yesterday’s comments where I mention that he ripped BOTH the Volt and the Leaf because of the Govt subsidy. He also complained of the 350 mile range of the Volt because he sees it as too *much*, because his (8 mpg) car only needs to go 200 or so per tank. Does that sound like he didn’t understand that it didn’t need to be on a 40 mile leash?
    Rush talks trash about many things that many of us don’t agree with, but his point was mainly about products needing to be able to stand on their own merit – without the govt needing to support them. We can argue that point, but at least he should be reported accurately. JMO.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:53 pm)

    flmark: I said this in item 120. “And it doesn’t take long into your (or all the other) putrid diatribes before you bring up Al Gore’s name.” Again you prove me right. The language of those who continue to malign the concept is always filled with hostility

    Yours sounds like a more hostile diatribe and it sure did not take you very long.

    Like it or not, Al Gore has put himself out in front of the AGW movement. He is subject to criticism since he has always relied on the claim that the science is settled and this has always been a myth. The science is clearly not settled. I will admit that I don’t know if he made this line up but he surely used it alot so I attribute the science is settled myth to Al.

    He deserves the criticism for being so scientifically ignorant to say such a thing. They guy has absolutely zero scientific ability and lives in some type of AGW bubble. I would wager that he could not complete an energy balance on a block of wood and yet he preaches about energy balances on a global scale.

    This is not a diatribe, it is a professional critique of an ignoramus who has pushed himself into the public eye with a certainty built upon his half baked understanding of the science.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:53 pm)

    LauraM:

    Loboc:We need to reduce the number of humans and any damage to the planetwill also be reduced. I’m thinking somewhere around 1900’s levels ofhumans is sustainable on this planet. That’s my story and I’m stickingto it.

    Lower population levels would absolutely help make our life stylesustainable. But how do you suggest we do that? Have a mass dieoff?  

    This made me chuckle, thinking about a roomate I had in college.

    He took offense to world overpopulation, and once said “They should put birth control in a aerosol form and cropdust India”.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (7:54 pm)

    LauraM: jeffhre: Reminds me of a controversial building I saw when I was in college. The lobby had soaring ceilings great expanses of large windows and a beautiful, expensive looking floor covering. After complaints about the extravagance for a state university, the floor was replaced with linoleum. Likely at a far greater cost than the original floor.
    Now that’s ridiculous and destructive. Especially if the original floor had historic value. 

    Not historic. Both floors brand spanking new, true story believe it or not.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:02 pm)

    Dave K.: Is it posible that GM went very high on the Volt price during the small production run of 10,000 vehicles. With the intent to recover R&D cost and allow time to reduce their battery manufacturing cost. And then price the 2012 Volt at under $40k?
    As it stands now, this is the only bright side I can see here.

    Feel like stepping away from gm volt dot com for a while

    It’s certainly possible that the high price could be a short term thing, that they are trying to recoup R&D, OR that they simply can’t afford to lose any more than they (are?) might be.

    I know what you mean about feeling like taking a break, but I’m trying to follow my own rule of not making important decisions immediately after a severe blow to the head (g).
    *Whatever* happens, I’m personally on hold with the Volt – still trying to find some logic in these decisions where there may actually *be* no logic involved. More and more, different parts of GM remind me of the “blind men describing an elephant” story.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:17 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: #191 jeffhre:
    The chart is great as it is. It’s a very good approximation for per trip miles per gallon. Instantaneously. Averaged over a point. Seems like there should be an inflection on the Volt curve at (40.250) though, not (50.250). And instead of dividing by 0, what about .0001 or something that Excel sees as really small?Sometimes there is too much information given to be used in the real world though. Beyond understanding the Volt conceptually, how would my persnickety corrections help me understand fuel consumption in a volt. If I know I will be using less than 38 gallons a year and can see the instantaneous and long term efficiency graphics on the screen then more information, like trying to correct kdawgs chart, likely will not help me.  
    I quess you can’t be helped. You ignore the point I made about the graph being incorrect. You misquote my post in #180 making it look like I said what kdawg said. For your information, I will repeat what I said. “You can’t divide by zero.” Kdawg understands that it is impossible to do so.
    Kdawg, if I’m wrong on this please chime in: You posted the chart so others could see how the mpg would be influenced by combining electric traction with internal combustion traction.
    But we know it’s all about you, jeffhre. I, just hope that my post helped someone else to understand why you DON’T divide by 0! I’m sure that others can understand how one might realize extremely high mpg if they use AER and very little gasoline. But one things for sure, a graph helps everyone see the difference.
    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.  

    Agreed, I cannot be helped. My bad if that makes ya feel bad. I will now retire to the math and punctuation for students site to help people understand why we shouldn’t divide by zero. Just so ya know it’s not all about me…

    Ah what the heck, it is all about me. And when I can squeeze in the sentiment, my hoping to electrify the passenger car fleet. And lowering casualties from protecting oil supply lines. And limiting dollars flowing to people trying to kill us. And recognizing folks like kdawg who have great ideas to help do that. And protecting peoples egos by writing my complaints are persnickety. But since you’re already hurt, I’ll ask you, does it really matter if kdawg shows a line going up beyond 250 MPG. The idea is brilliant anyway, no? My earlier comments were for kdawg; to recognize good work, not to criticize you anyway, the site highlights the name of the last commentor. I could have corrected that part with HTML, but got a bit lazy. I apologize for that.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:22 pm)

    Tagamet: It’s certainly possible that the high price could be a short term thing, that they are trying to recoup R&D, OR that they simply can’t afford to lose any more than they (are?) might be.

    Given that they could sell all of them at that price, I don’t see the downside for GM.

    I think it would be very positive if Version 2 is cheaper. GM could note that they worked hard to bring the cost down so more people could afford it. This would help their image and bring more positive press.

    The limited production numbers mean that this years cars are really not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. I don’t believe the battery factory is up to speed yet and the 1.4L engine plant is still not producing and I think they are bringing them in from overseas. It is definitely not a good time to ramp up production as the costs are still high. Hopefully with the local production of engines and batteries optimized in a year or so, production can start to really ramp up and costs can come down.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:24 pm)

    #81 Landkurt
    My point was (in #35 posting) that those with very limited daily driving probably do not need the volt with its backup system. You are paying for the extras (range extender) a less expensive BEV would suffice. I was not implying that the volt was not sufficient. I was implying that the BEV may be a less expensive solution. I hope my comment now make sense to you.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:31 pm)

    LazP: #81 Landkurt
    My point was (in #35 posting) that those with very limited daily driving probably do not need the volt with its backup system. You are paying for the extras (range extender) a less expensive BEV would suffice. I was not implying that the volt was not sufficient. I was implying that the BEV may be a less expensive solution. I hope my comment now make sense to you.  

    Makes sense to me.
    Anyone who has a regular pattern of driving 40 to 90 miles a day ALL OF THE TIME probably does not need the VOLT with the extra cost range options. There are cars like the LEAF that will work for a lot fewer dollars.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:32 pm)

    RB: n most of the world there will not be a significant population increase between 2010 and 2050 (not exponential and not linear, but rather a decline in total numbers), and there is no identified reason to expect one ever again. There will be a shift in the age profile, with more older people. Some countries, such as Japan and especially Russia, are declining in population at a rate high enough to be scary, i.e., about a million per year from a population total less than that of the USA.

    DonC: The good news is that the population explosion is over. Put a fork in it. High birth rates have been reduced by economic development in places such as China, India, and Indonesia. Populations will continue to rise since there is a huge cohort of women of child bearing age in the pipeline, and there isn’t anything that is going to prevent them from having children, but after that there isn’t much of an issue with exploding populations.

    I agree that we’re not going to have a population explosion. That’s over. (Although population will continue to increase.) And that’s the good news.

    The bad news is twofold. The first issue is what that’s going to do to social security programs worldwide as a result of the rapidly decreasing worker/retiree ratio. Especially in “developed nations.” It’s a serious problem. And it’s a big part of the reason that the average retirement age has to go up.

    The other bad news is that we’re already well beyond the sustainable carrying capacity of the earth. At least if everyone expects to live (and consume) like Americans. We’re going to have to learn to conserve resources and find alternative forms of energy if we expect everyone to have a decent standard of living. And that includes ourselves.


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    EVNow

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:32 pm)

    Tagamet: That’s simply not true. I heard the broadcast live. Check yesterday’s comments where I mention that he ripped BOTH the Volt and the Leaf because of the Govt subsidy. He also complained of the 350 mile range of the Volt because he sees it as too *much*, because his (8 mpg) car only needs to go 200 or so per tank.

    Sounds like someone needs to set autoblog straight, then.

    Rush talks trash about many things that many of us don’t agree with, but his point was mainly about products needing to be able to stand on their own merit – without the govt needing to support them.

    I completely agree with Rush here. After 150 years, oil should not be getting subsidies even now. They should be made to pay for the real cost of oil – including providing security in the gulf. Saudis and Oil companies have been subsidized enough already …


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:39 pm)

    nuclearboy: Tagamet: It’s certainly possible that the high price could be a short term thing, that they are trying to recoup R&D, OR that they simply can’t afford to lose any more than they (are?) might be.

    Given that they could sell all of them at that price, I don’t see the downside for GM.

    I think it would be very positive if Version 2 is cheaper. GM could note that they worked hard to bring the cost down so more people could afford it. This would help their image and bring more positive press.

    Yeah, I’m pretty sure that GM could sell a lot more than 10K Volts this year, so no *fiscal* downside, but as you suggest, a PR one. Lowering the asking price sure wouldn’t hurt. I was more unsettled about this “We won’t be the one to tell you” about CS mode MPG, that really bothers me. Barring a last minute surprise about GREAT cs mpg, as a “last shot” at the competition. In a prior life I’d have believed that.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    neutron

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:39 pm)

    Tagamet: It’s certainly possible that the high price could be a short term thing, that they are trying to recoup R&D, OR that they simply can’t afford to lose any more than they (are?) might be.I know what you mean about feeling like taking a break, but I’m trying to follow my own rule of not making important decisions immediately after a severe blow to the head (g).
    *Whatever* happens, I’m personally on hold with the Volt – still trying to find some logic in these decisions where there may actually *be* no logic involved. More and more, different parts of GM remind me of the “blind men describing an elephant” story.Be well,
    Tagamet  

    I just do not see how GM is losing money on this car at that or even at a lower price.
    GM went through bankruptcy where a LOT of debt was forgiven.
    I also understand their production costs are now lower….
    Plus many folks indicate a lot of the VOLT’S R & D was discharged in the bankruptcy.

    I think they see a demand created by sites like this one.. and they are pushing the price to make a bigger profit. ;+}

    That is my 2 cents…. or 1 cent since I now too have lower costs.


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:39 pm)

    Tagamet: *Whatever* happens, I’m personally on hold with the Volt – still trying to find some logic in these decisions where there may actually *be* no logic involved. More and more, different parts of GM remind me of the “blind men describing an elephant” story.

    In this story, which part are we, the elephant or the blind men?


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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:40 pm)

    EVNow:
    Sounds like someone needs to set autoblog straight, then.
    I completely agree with Rush here. After 150 years, oil should not be getting subsidies even now. They should be made to pay for the real cost of oil – including providing security in the gulf. Saudis and Oil companies have been subsidized enough already …  

    Amen on all points.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  256. 256
    Tagamet

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:43 pm)

    jeffhre: Tagamet: *Whatever* happens, I’m personally on hold with the Volt – still trying to find some logic in these decisions where there may actually *be* no logic involved. More and more, different parts of GM remind me of the “blind men describing an elephant” story.

    In this story, which part are we the elephant or the blind men?

    Good question. I’ll guess “C”.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  257. 257
    Tagamet

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:52 pm)

    neutron:
    I just do not see how GM is losing money on this car at that or even a lower price.
    GM went through bankruptcy where a LOT of debt was forgiven.
    I also understand their production costs are now lower….
    Plus many folks indicate a lot of the VOLT’S R & D was discharged in the bankruptcy.I think they see a demand created by sites like this one..and they are pushing the price to make a bigger profit.;+}That is my 2 cents….or 1 cent since I now too have lower costs.  

    You’re probably correct. I guess giving them the benefit of the doubt, is a habit that will die hard. Or maybe not. (g)

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  258. 258
    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:56 pm)

    Here is another idea. GM has all sorts of data on battery range under hot and cold conditions, so just publish that. Numbers below are just an example, GM has all the real data!

    EV Range = 28-45 miles based on driver habits, road conditions, weather conditions and “other factors”.

    CS Mode = 31-43 mpg based on driver habits…. yadda, yadda, yadda

    Then in Volt 1.5 (when the release the 30,000 vehicles) add an on board MPG tracker. Enter in gallons of gas when filling. Based on the total miles of the car, it automatically calculates current MPG to date.

    Of course this will rely on the person entering the gallons every fill up. BUT, everyone here and most people buying the car in the next few years are anal enough to keep up.

    Yes you will have some dingle-berry that will purposely enter lower number to boost his MPG reading in the car to impress his friends. But most of the people here are honest and will want to know what they are really getting.

    Yes, I know you can do this yourself without an on-board function. Much like I did when I first got my Honda FIT. I religiously kept track of mileage for about 16 months. Then I did not have a pen to enter in book and data collection fell apart. ;-)

    Just another idea among many —- ;-}


  259. 259
    JEC

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:57 pm)

    Loboc: Boy, I sure missed a lot the last couple days while on vacation in an e- and i-free zone. (very liberating, but, painful)Still reading through everything, but, the upshot is that people are disappointed about the pricing and still want GM to give out their closely-held trade secrets about CS mode mileage.I still want a Volt and still don’t care what CS mode mileage is; because I won’t use any CS.Some interesting tidbits released such as 95 octane gas needed. Everything else is as expected.Also, some more rants about AGW. Sheesh, give it a rest already. CO2 and Oxygen are both lethal in sufficient quantities. Just because some government agency says that CO2 (a naturally-occurring gas) is now a ‘pollutant’ depends upon if you’re a plant or an animal.We gotta worry about the other crap we are putting in the environment like raw crude oil and nitrous oxides that are really doing the damage.
    We need to reduce the number of humans and any damage to the planet will also be reduced. I’m thinking somewhere around 1900’s levels of humans is sustainable on this planet. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.  

    Loboc,

    I you believe you will never use CS mode, then a BEV would be a much better choice for you. If your never going to use CS mode with a 40 mile range, then the 100 mile Leaf would more then accommodate your driving needs.

    Agreed?


  260. 260
    Red HHR

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (8:57 pm)

    Oh,Oh, seems the CS mileage will be no better than the HHR…
    Still want a Volt though, my daily commute is 42 miles & I typically get 10% better than EPA highway.

    I see Laura M is on the gas tax bandwagon, I agree we should tax gas at two cents a gallon. Then raise it 2 cents again every month. She has my vote and best interest at hart. Cheers!


  261. 261
    nuclearboy

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:00 pm)

    Tagamet: I was more unsettled about this “We won’t be the one to tell you” about CS mode MPG, that really bothers me.

    This does make one wonder if it might be embarrassingly low.


  262. 262
    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:10 pm)

    For a company with a perception problem, GM seems awfully preoccupied with projecting negative perceptions.

    Some of our regulars at gm-volt will buy (not lease) Volts, and the necessary measurements will be made, and posted, here. Come clean, GM. We’re not above airing some dirty laundry.

    GM, you’re making yourselves look like @$$es for nothing.


  263. 263
    DonC

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:14 pm)

    Tagamet: Good question. I’ll guess “C”.

    I think GM made two big mistakes. One technical and one strategic.

    The technical mistake was the range extender. Although the data from the EV1 suggested range was not a big issue, I think internally the EV1 failure was explained away by weakness of the batteries rather than bad management decisions, and the myth of “range anxiety” of born. To overcome objections Lutz and Lauckner came up with the range extender. That’s a great idea but it substantially increases the complexity of the vehicle, creates some packaging issues since you need room for the genset and its accouterments, and limits the size of the battery pack. At the end of the day you end up spending a lot of effort on giving a small car which isn’t well suited to long cruising more range. (GM could have simply provided a range extender trailer if this was really a big deal. You can get one for the RAV4 for a few thousand dollars. Works just like an EREV, just not quite as neat and tidy for the Missus).

    The strategic mistake was the production volume. Nissan took the path of ramping up volumes so it could drive down the cost per copy and make the Leaf competitive with cars like the Prius. That’s a winning strategy. With Lutz gone and Lauckner pushed aside, GM went a completely different direction, choosing to limit production. This in turn drove the cost per copy way up, which resulted in the $41K+ price that has given you heartburn. GM probably thinks that it can find 10K people willing to buy the Volt regardless of the price, and for one year it may be right. Bu given the Leaf is more than $10K less the Volt can’t begin to compete car for car. The result is that, if you can wait a couple of years, you’ll have plenty of choices in used Volts at rock bottom prices as more and more EVs with more advanced features and battery packs slot in under its price.

    GM also acted like a 100 year old company and continued to do things like letting its dealers, which are loathed by the people making up the target demographic, handle most aspects of the Volt roll out. (The web execution wasn’t good either. I went to the Volt website after the price announcement and couldn’t find the list of dealers they kept talking about). Compare this to Nissan which has found a web based and legal way of controlling the roll out. But these type of mistakes are minor compared to the first two.


  264. 264
    Roy H

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:18 pm)

    Tagamet: It’s certainly possible that the high price could be a short term thing, that they are trying to recoup R&D, OR that they simply can’t afford to lose any more than they (are?) might be.
    I know what you mean about feeling like taking a break, but I’m trying to follow my own rule of not making important decisions immediately after a severe blow to the head (g).
    *Whatever* happens, I’m personally on hold with the Volt – still trying to find some logic in these decisions where there may actually *be* no logic involved. More and more, different parts of GM remind me of the “blind men describing an elephant” story.

    We may not like it, but I think it is logical. LG’s Michigan battery plant does not come on line til 2012 MY. Until then all batteries come from Korea. GM had to make a quantity commitment a long time ago and must have decided then that 10k was a number they could be comfortable with. I have argued all a long that GM should not loose money on this, they cannot afford to, but I did think their cost would be considerably lower. I also argued that it is better for the money to go to GM than scalpers on eBay or high-markup dealers. All this points to a price that is only for 2011. When batteries are made locally in higher volume, the price will come down. I feel confident that the 2012 price will be lower (maybe not a lot lower, but lower).

    Big industry are masters at reducing costs if the volumes can be high enough. CPI also has orders for its batteries from Ford, this will help drive costs down. I don’t believe there are any high cost materials in these batteries or any toxic materials that might be harmful to workers. Just new technology, prices will drop faster than most have predicted.


  265. 265
    jeffhre

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:24 pm)

    Tagamet: Good question. I’ll guess “C”.

    LOL, thanks Tag. I feel better now, was feeling low thinking the right answer may have been all of the above.


  266. 266
    jeffhre

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:37 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic: GM has all the real data!
    EV Range = 28-45 miles based on driver habits, road conditions, weather conditions and “other factors”.
    CS Mode = 31-43 mpg based on driver habits…. yadda, yadda, yadda
    Then in Volt 1.5 (when the release the 30,000 vehicles) add an on board MPG tracker. Enter in gallons of gas when filling. Based on the total miles of the car, it automatically calculates current MPG to date.
    Of course this will rely on the person entering the gallons every fill up. BUT, everyone here and most people buying the car in the next few years are anal enough to keep up.
    Yes you will have some dingle-berry that will purposely enter lower number to boost his MPG reading in the car to impress his friends. But most of the people here are honest and will want to know what they are really getting.

    As a group we are really focused on MPG. Guess that’s just our natural North American perspective. In countries that have gas that is really expensive there is some use of gallons per mile if I have that correct. It’s supposed to help with the SUV conundrum where every one concludes more gas is saved going from 27 mpg to 39 mpg than in going from 12 mpg to 18 mpg.

    If I was to drive a Volt in the future, I would think in terms of miles per year and how much I’m burning to get x number of miles right now would take a back seat for me. If I was driving a BEV I think I would want to know a MPG equivalent, at least at first.

    Will mpg continue to be our main focus for the foreseeable future?


  267. 267
    flmark

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:40 pm)

    nuclearboy: Yours sounds like a more hostile diatribe and it sure did not take you very long.Like it or not, Al Gore has put himself out in front of the AGW movement. He is subject to criticism since he has always relied on the claim that the science is settled and this has always been a myth. The science is clearly not settled. I will admit that I don’t know if he made this line up but he surely used it alot so I attribute the science is settled myth to Al.He deserves the criticism for being so scientifically ignorant to say such a thing. They guy has absolutely zero scientific ability and lives in some type of AGW bubble. I would wager that he could not complete an energy balance on a block of wood and yet he preaches about energy balances on a global scale. This is not a diatribe, it is a professional critique of an ignoramus who has pushed himself into the public eye with a certainty built upon his half baked understanding of the science.  (Quote)

    By entirely focusing your response AGAIN on the target of your hostility, you again miss the big picture. I couldn’t care less about Al Gore. He lost me when he claimed that he invented the Internet. The topic is a warming earth.

    I pointed out two QUALITATIVE examples with respect to formerly iced up waterways which are now becoming shipping lanes. Glaciers the world over which have been photographed for over a hundred years- vanishing. Back in the ’80s, I started seeing photos in National Geographic showing utility poles in Alaska tipped sideways, because the (formerly reliable) permafrost was no longer ‘perma’. There are numerous signs that point to the same thing. Yet, again with the Al Gore retort. For every desperate item you might pick out that argues against global warming, I am sure others here will pull out 5 more that counter it.

    I mentioned the word PRUDENT. I mention it again. It has a positive connotation. It is prudent to attack rust when it first appears on your car. It is prudent to shore up a house that displays cracks from settling. It is prudent to treat a wound that appears to be infected. So another mile marker appears yesterday (plankton levels) to tell us something is going wrong. How big of a picture has to be painted for you to get past your distaste for Al Gore?

    Just because I believe in gravity, it doesn’t mean I worship, or even care about Isaac Newton. The folks on your side of the fence doggedly point with venom back at one man. I am discussing a phenomenon which is unrelated to anyone. By ignoring my facts (thawing waterways) and returning again to an individual, you prove my point.


  268. 268
    Roy H

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:46 pm)

    Tagamet: More and more, different parts of GM remind me of the “blind men describing an elephant” story.

    First Board Member: (Head buried in accounting book) Holy s&!t, we spent all this money and we’re giving away OnStar just to make the price palatable?

    Second Board Member: I took one home. Really impressed with leather seats, flawless finish, silent, drives better than my BMW! I paid over $40k for my B.

    Third Board Member: We have got to show profit for our IPO! What better than to say our new Volt got completely sold out for the first year and we are making money on it.


  269. 269
    LauraM

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:47 pm)

    nuclearboy: Tagamet: I was more unsettled about this “We won’t be the one to tell you” about CS mode MPG, that really bothers me.

    This does make one wonder if it might be embarrassingly low.

    Me too. I’m not so concerned with the EPA thing. I’m sure that’s on the government. But GM really should release a figure for the charge sustaining mode. The fact that they’re not makes me nervous. Even 40mpg would be good news.


  270. 270
    Tagamet

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (9:59 pm)

    DonC:
    I think GM made two big mistakes. One technical and one strategic.The technical mistake was the range extender. Although the data from the EV1 suggested range was not a big issue, I think internally the EV1 failure was explained away by weakness of the batteries rather than bad management decisions, and the myth of “range anxiety” of born. To overcome objections Lutz and Lauckner came up with the range extender. That’s a great idea but it substantially increases the complexity of the vehicle, creates some packaging issues since you need room for the genset and its accouterments, and limits the size of the battery pack. At the end of the day you end up spending a lot of effort on giving a small car which isn’t well suited to long cruising more range. (GM could have simply provided a range extender trailer if this was really a big deal. You can get one for the RAV4 for a few thousand dollars. Works just like an EREV, just not quite as neat and tidy for the Missus).
    The strategic mistake was the production volume. Nissan took the path of ramping up volumes so it could drive down the cost per copy and make the Leaf competitive with cars like the Prius. That’s a winning strategy. With Lutz gone and Lauckner pushed aside, GM went a completely different direction, choosing to limit production. This in turn drove the cost per copy way up, which resulted in the $41K+ price that has given you heartburn. GM probably thinks that it can find 10K people willing to buy the Volt regardless of the price, and for one year it may be right. Bu given the Leaf is more than $10K less the Volt can’t begin to compete car for car. The result is that, if you can wait a couple of years, you’ll have plenty of choices in used Volts at rock bottom prices as more and more EVs with more advanced features and battery packs slot in under its price.GM also acted like a 100 year old company and continued to do things like letting its dealers, which are loathed by the people making up the target demographic, handle most aspects of the Volt roll out. (The web execution wasn’t good either. I went to the Volt website after the price announcement and couldn’t find the list of dealers they kept talking about). Compare this to Nissan which has found a web based and legal way of controlling the roll out. But these type of mistakes are minor compared to the first two.  

    Still, and this falls under the umbrella of old habits, the Volt *has* served to push other companies into a market presence. So even if GM has thoroughly and irrevocably screwed the pooch, at least they’ll have a sentence in the history of EV’s. They could have had a chapter.
    I really need to break this habit…

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Loboc

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:01 pm)

    I just went to a seminar with folks from different industries (oil, aerospace, government, etc.). There was a guy there with Shell oil (37 years in the industry). He says that all gasoline is sent to a depot from the refiners. It is all mixed together (like electricity on the grid). Then, each distributor offloads their fuel from the depot and goes to their additive depot to mix up their special versions of the exact same fuel.

    You can’t tell which is which at the pump except the additives. Also, the gasoline pumps are generally not owned directly by the oil companies any more. They are independent business people.

    Upshot is, by boycotting a specific ‘brand’ you are just killing the local business guys. The oil company doesn’t feel a thing.


  272. 272
    jeffhre

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:02 pm)

    LauraM: Me too. I’m not so concerned with the EPA thing. I’m sure that’s on the government. But GM really should release a figure for the charge sustaining mode. The fact that they’re not makes me nervous. Even 40mpg would be good news. 

    If they are using numbers the EPA cannot accept, there is no basis for an announcement. If city and or highway mileage blessed by the EPA is not on the first sticker as hinted, then what will we expect from GM? Looks like you’ll have to have a strong tolerance for uncertainty to hang in there before this is finally over.


  273. 273
    Roy H

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:04 pm)

    LauraM: Me too. I’m not so concerned with the EPA thing. I’m sure that’s on the government. But GM really should release a figure for the charge sustaining mode. The fact that they’re not makes me nervous. Even 40mpg would be good news.  

    They have repeatedly said that they were on target for 50mpg. I don’t see that should be any problem given premium gas. Premium gas is higher octane and will give more power with a higher compression engine. Tony P. stated that premium gives about a 5% to 10% boost in mileage. Should make it easy to meet the 50mpg goal. However I do not think this is a good trade as premium is about 20% higher in price. So cost wise this would be the same as 40mpg with regular gas.


  274. 274
    America1st

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:10 pm)

    Nothing but the noise. Hey, 40 miles electric. Good for America, good for me. I’m buying the premium color.

    Hope this comes to Colorado soon. Having trouble buying at Connecticut dealers.


  275. 275
    Tagamet

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:13 pm)

    jeffhre: …Looks like you’ll have to have a strong tolerance for uncertainty to hang in there before this is finally over.

    Anyone left here has already shown this in spades, no?

    Be well,
    Tagamet


  276. 276
    Loboc

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:21 pm)

    JEC:
    Loboc,I you believe you will never use CS mode, then a BEV would be a much better choice for you.If your never going to use CS mode with a 40 mile range, then the 100 mile Leaf would more then accommodate your driving needs.Agreed?  

    Yes, that is true. My problem is that there currently is no US-built car that meets those criteria.

    My first criteria (no foreign cars) and my second criteria (no foreign oil) seem to be at odds right now.

    It’ll all shake out by mid-2011 or so. Maybe the rumor is true that Volt will come in a battery-only model.


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    Charlie H

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:24 pm)

    kdawg: Those are rather erratic driving cycles? I think most people know their typical daily drive. The idea was to create a tool to help people figure out how much gas they would use per year. I have no problem w/also giving them the AER and the CS #’s, but like I posted earlier, its gets a bit more complicated to compare apples to apples when you incorporate parallel PHEV’s if you just look at those #’s.  (Quote)

    The immediate problem is not to rate parallel PHEVs, the immediate problem is to get a label on the Volt. A label that actually offers the customer some guidance. A table that says, “N miles per day is $X per year” is valueless. Give the customer information about how the car uses fuel… N miles electric, X mpg after that. Simple. The potential customer can then plug in his values or create a simple spreadsheet and project his use.


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    LRGVProVolt

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:25 pm)

    jeffhre in Post #246: I apologize for that.

    I’m not hurt at all. It would have been clearer if you would have directed your comments to kdawg.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


  279. 279
    Xiaowei1

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:26 pm)

    after the price being higher than expected, and now not wanting to release the MPG rating, I can only surmise it’s not as good as we had hopped (i.e. much less than 50mpg).

    Sure there is 40 miles battery, but many people want to know what to expect out of a car that has “generator” bragging rights – great, its got a generator, so how efficient is that?

    This information will eventually be known, so GM might as well publish it in a good light rather than having the media put its own spin on it.


  280. 280
    LRGVProVolt

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:41 pm)

    flmark: He lost me when he claimed that he invented the Internet.

    http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp

    Don’t believe everything you hear.

    Happy trails to you ’til you meet again.


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    john1701a

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:50 pm)

    Xiaowei1: This information will eventually be known, so GM might as well publish it in a good light rather than having the media put its own spin on it.

    They’ll spin it anyway. That’s why I’ve been pushing so hard for preparation here. The inevitable is about to ensue. And sadly, the lack of information will add to it.

    How long do you think it will take to figure out CS-mode efficiency? Connect an aftermarket gauge to the ODB-II port, set the cruise on a flat road, read what MPG is displayed. That’s not rocket science. It will only a few minutes.

    Now think about how misleading some of those quick observations will be.


  282. 282
    Loboc

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (10:53 pm)

    Tagamet:
    Anyone left here has already shown this in spades, no?Be well,
    Tagamet  

    Y’all almost lost me when the ‘no E85 capability’ was announced. The Volt has changed so much and yet the major pieces are pretty much intact. It’s like watching a never-ending mystery story, so, ya can’t just quit watching.

    I believe (at this point in time) that GM will never, ever, ever, release the CS mode raw mileage. They got so burnt on the 230mpg thing (and the dancers) that any further moves in the pre-release are all squashed company-wide. Even the great and powerful Lutz was giving out misleading and conflicting information.

    GM’s next major move is IPO. They won’t do anything to upset that apple cart.

    Even when the car is out in the wild and people start doing comparisons about their actual MPG, the car will deliver numbers all over the map (or graph, or whatever). How can you do any comparison when the car can deliver anywhere between 30mpg and infinity?

    /hmm.. I wonder if you can hook up a kill-a-watt meter in a hard-wired 240v installation? We need to know how much electricity as well as gasoline is used.

    //BTW. In Excel, you can suppress divide-by-zero errors.


  283. 283
    Dave K.

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:15 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): For a company with a perception problem, GM seems awfully preoccupied with projecting negative perceptions.
    Some of our regulars at gm-volt will buy (not lease) Volts, and the necessary measurements will be made, and posted, here. Come clean, GM. We’re not above airing some dirty laundry.
    GM, you’re making yourselves look like @$$es for nothing.

    I don’t agree with the last sentence in the above statement. But I very much agree that GM is a long way from removing the Darth Vader helmet. For the last six months we’ve heard, “we’re on target for November delivery” and “the Volt will be priced a little under $40k, not official yet” and “our mileage expectations are on target, although there is still some fine tuning to go”.

    GM needs to find a way to get owners of Japanese cars to trade them in on GM products. I don’t see the Cruze or the Buick line doing this. The Volt is the only vehicle that has a chance of getting the job done.

    We patiently wait for the 2012′s to arrive?

    =D-Volt

    Tag, God bless you and your sunny view on life. We all appreciate your input and calming manner. I have been tearing my condo apart and rolling paint on the walls for the last three weeks. Bamboo flooring is going in next week. It’s very good therapy.


  284. 284
    jeffhre

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:35 pm)

    Tagamet: Still, and this falls under the umbrella of old habits, the Volt *has* served to push other companies into a market presence. So even if GM has thoroughly and irrevocably screwed the pooch, at least they’ll have a sentence in the history of EV’s. They could have had a chapter.
    I really need to break this habit…
    Be well,
    Tagamet

    Well, if you look at the history of automobiles, there are a lot of sentences like that. Probably totally unknown to the outside world except for some librarian in a decaying old building outside of Detroit.

    Hope after such an amazing start, GM doesn’t lose the potential that the Volt brings them. They’ve seized some of that potential due Tesla according to Bob Lutz. And it’s starting to look like after the model S Tesla will have no place to go either. Unfortunately sometimes the pioneers do take the arrows. Outsized risks and everything.

    Sometimes they get the brass ring, and other times the risks catch up to them before the rewards.


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    LauraM

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:37 pm)

    Loboc: Yes, that is true. My problem is that there currently is no US-built car that meets those criteria.

    My first criteria (no foreign cars) and my second criteria (no foreign oil) seem to be at odds right now.

    It’ll all shake out by mid-2011 or so. Maybe the rumor is true that Volt will come in a battery-only model.

    Isn’t Ford supposed to be coming out with a BEV?


  286. 286
    flmark

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:39 pm)

    LRGVProVolt: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.aspDon’t believe everything you hear.Happy trails to you ’til you meet again.  (Quote)

    I actually knew that this was an item taken out of context, but I did indeed stop caring much for Gore when he flip flopped during his political career. As a naval officer in the ’80s, I felt him a reasonable moderate and a strong supporter of the military. However, I watched him become more liberal as time went on. By the time the rumor of the ‘inventor of the Internet’ was being tossed about I was fed up with him. Indeed, I had to overcome previous bias against him before I would ever actually view his ‘Inconvenient Truth’. Nonetheless, like Bush and Clinton coming together, I realize that one doesn’t have to have politics in common to come to grips with the qualitative facts I discussed earlier. Perhaps I threw this comment out to make others realize that no one here in this camp elected Gore as spokesman. He is just another voice who just happens to get more press time than the rest of us.


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    Truman

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:46 pm)

    Charge Sustaining mode MPG will be one of the first things auto writers will determine once the production cars are out. You can wave your hands all you want about this car being “unique” and “in a class by itself”, but people want to know: how efficient is the serial hybrid idea ? How efficiently does the generator/battery/electric-motor/regenerative-brakes work together ?

    The EPA MPG tests for highway and city are well known (miles length, speeds, inclines)- some auto journalist will just deplete the battery till the generator kick-on point, and then drive the tests. The only MPG difference between “500 miles and 5 miles” is if the ICE generator is warmed up – this affects the MPG of the Prius, too, in the first 15 minutes of driving.

    They will drive the car like a serial hybrid using gasoline, and measure the MPG according to the existing tests the EPA uses for existing hybrids.
    Mystery solved.

    If it comes out around 35 mpg, the reputation of the Volt will take a hit – short range EV, then a mediocre hybrid after that (hybrid Camry is 33/34 city/highway – hybrid Ford Fusion is 41/36). Maybe better torque because of all electric motor propulsion.

    If it comes out around 50 mpg, the reputation of the Volt will soar – electric commute/errand car, plus it can also be driven just like an efficient Prius hybrid using gasoline once the battery is depleted of the plug-in charge.

    Since GM is not trumpeting the latter, it is more likely the former.
    But I’ll wait for those automotive articles first, and hope for the latter.


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    Jim I

     

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    Jul 29th, 2010 (11:49 pm)

    Tagamet:
    (Sound of single-large caliber-gun shot)You made a lot of good points today.Be well,
    Tagamet  

    ==============================

    OK, I can take that gunshot thing several ways:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENngzZdUMEM&feature=related

    Or

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0-oinyjsk0&feature=related

    Or

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb9rk6M6cpE&feature=related

    Or

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhxbYTMNMxo

    :-)

    But I am still truing to figure out how it affects the CSM…………..


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (12:03 am)

    Well, it was a long day but I finally found time to finish this:

    VOLT_gas_usage.jpg


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (12:18 am)

    Here is the PDF File… I could not post the image directly…

    http://www.allnewchevyvolt.com/VOLT_gas_usage.pdf

    Maybe Lyle can use it.


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    speedy

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (12:20 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Well, it was a long day but I finally found time to finish this:  (Quote)

    CorvetteGuy gm knows what the mileage of the volt is, but they have too what for the slow ass EPA to post a efficiency label for the car. It’s not Gm’s fault they don’t have a EPA label yet.


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    Velma Dinkley

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (12:23 am)

    The bad news keeps on coming. I now understand why everything is a secret with this joke of a company.


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    koz

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (1:17 am)

    Loboc: I just went to a seminar with folks from different industries (oil, aerospace, government, etc.). There was a guy there with Shell oil (37 years in the industry). He says that all gasoline is sent to a depot from the refiners. It is all mixed together (like electricity on the grid). Then, each distributor offloads their fuel from the depot and goes to their additive depot to mix up their special versions of the exact same fuel.You can’t tell which is which at the pump except the additives. Also, the gasoline pumps are generally not owned directly by the oil companies any more. They are independent business people. Upshot is, by boycotting a specific ‘brand’ you are just killing the local business guys. The oil company doesn’t feel a thing.  (Quote)

    You don’t think Shell gets something from gas sold at Shell branded gas stations even if the station is independently owned? Well howdy, you’re my kinda buyer. I’ve got some property….


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    jscott1000

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (1:20 am)

    It’s obvious at this point that charge sustaining mileage is disappointingly low, (probably in the low 30s). So rather than publish that number, which would basically declare the Volt a failure, GM is lobbying the EPA to publish a voodoo number that incorporates the battery.

    The voodoo number will be true for a great number of people, but the manufacturer owes it to people to report what MPG the car gets if you never plug it in. That test is very simple and could be completed in a couple of hours.


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    speedy

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (3:31 am)

    jscott1000: It’s obvious at this point that charge sustaining mileage is disappointingly low, (probably in the low 30s). So rather than publish that number, which would basically declare the Volt a failure, GM is lobbying the EPA to publish a voodoo number that incorporates the battery. The voodoo number will be true for a great number of people, but the manufacturer owes it to people to report what MPG the car gets if you never plug it in. That test is very simple and could be completed in a couple of hours.  (Quote)

    Right !!, please your wishing like so many on here it too be low, so you can call the volt a failure. Gm know’s what the number’s are.


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    Red HHR

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (4:15 am)

    Is it possible to pick the Volt at the factory? CS mileage could be determined the first day of ownership.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (4:32 am)

    Dave K.: Tag, God bless you and your sunny view on life. We all appreciate your input and calming manner. I have been tearing my condo apart and rolling paint on the walls for the last three weeks. Bamboo flooring is going in next week. It’s very good therapy.

    Sincere thanks for the very kind thought. (but you might want to save a few splinters of bamboo, so we can “encourage” GM to release that CS mpg number)(g). Many of us have been on this long-term home improvement project together. I hope that we can hang together for a while yet. (john I’d like to hang separately). (wink).
    Good luck with *your* project. Temporary inconvenience, permanent improvement (or at least until the next project)(g).
    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (4:47 am)

    LauraM:
    Me too.I’m not so concerned with the EPA thing.I’m sure that’s on the government.But GM really should release a figure for the charge sustaining mode. The fact that they’re not makes me nervous.Even 40mpg would be good news.  

    Laura, I think you will be very disappointed. I suspect that Consumer Reports was correct about the 9 gallon tank. Take that information along with GM stating the VOLT will get about 300 miles in ER/CS mode and you get about 33 mpg. If you look at the type of engine along with the weight of the car, it makes perfect sense that this is where it is at. A few people have argued that a 9 gallon tank really only holds 8 gallons useable which boosts the mpg to 37.5. However, manufacturers will oversize the tanks to take into account you can’t run it dry. My Honda FIT tank is stated at 10.6 gallons / but I regularly put 11 gallons in and it is not dry or topped off by filling the tube.

    That said, I still don’t see the problem with that. If 70% of miles are EV and 30% CS it is still a great reduction in gas consumption. When the news about tank size broke a few weeks ago, and people speculated the MPG to be about 35, I did a study of my driving miles. I will be close to 80% EV and 20% CS. Based on 33mpg for CS, I will come out at about 160mpg actual.

    My bigger concern is EV range. Will it actually be 40miles on average, or with the Cold Wisconsin winters & Hot summers drop it to 30 miles. My concern is not range anxiety, but how it affects overall fuel consumption.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (4:56 am)

    Jim I:
    ==============================OK, I can take that gunshot thing several ways:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENngzZdUMEM&feature=relatedOrhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0-oinyjsk0&feature=relatedOrhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb9rk6M6cpE&feature=relatedOrhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhxbYTMNMxo
    But I am still truing to figure out how it affects the CSM…………..  

    I’d just omitted the word “self-inflicted” from the “Sound of single gunshot” phrase, so I guess it would be none of the above. But the Dirty Harry one would be interesting with GM in the role of the other fellow. “So are you going to cough up that mileage score, or are you feeling lucky, punk?”

    Keep smiling,
    Tagamet


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    Jimza Skeptic

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (5:09 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Well, it was a long day but I finally found time to finish this:  

    This is the best one so far. But just to appease the guys out there who will say; “What if I am going on a long trip and drive all day”. So a worst case might be the guy driving 16 hours or 900 miles CS + 40 EV using 27 gallons. That comes out to about 35 mpg overall. Not bad for a long road trip maybe done once or twice a year. I doubt the Prius would get much better on a long road trip like that as there is not much breaking to recharge the battery. The Prius is great for traffic jams in Chicago and NY, but on the open road for a long burst, it drops off.


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    jeffhre

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (5:14 am)

    jscott1000: The voodoo number will be true for a great number of people, but the manufacturer owes it to people to report what MPG the car gets if you never plug it in. That test is very simple and could be completed in a couple of hours.

    That’s a novel idea. Build an electric car and publish the specs for when you never get propulsion from electricity, only gasoline, because it’s never plugged in. Got it. Because it’s important.

    Then, let’s check on the efficiency of a Prius, if you never put gas in it. Small potatoes? Not important enough?

    OK, next let’s call American Airlines and ask what time their flights from Houston to Denver will arrive, using the interstate highways, in case they buy planes that never fly. Because that’s important.

    Let’s ask the members of the Motion Picture Academy what effect Martin Scorcese’s work would have in film history, if he never set foot on a film set.

    Let’s ask historians the importance that George Washington’s life work would hold for the country, if he never went past the property lines of his farm in Virginia.

    Let’s ask physicists the influence Einstein’s career would have on their work if he stopped studying math and physics at 11 years old, to spend his life competing with and coaching for the Swiss national water polo team. That’s gonna be important too. And they owe it to the public to spill it all. And don’t get all indignant and try to say water polo is not important, I simply don’t accept that, never will.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (5:26 am)

    jeffhre:
    That’s a novel idea. Build an electric car and publish the specs for when you never get propulsion from electricity, only gasoline, because it’s never plugged in. Got it. Because it’s important.Then, let’s check on the efficiency of a Prius, if you never put gas in it. Small potatoes? Not important enough?OK, next let’s call American Airlines and ask what time their flights from Houston to Denver will arrive, using the interstate highways, in case they buy planes that never fly. Because that’s important.Let’s ask the members of the Motion Picture Academy what effect Martin Scorcese’s work would have in film history, if he never set foot on a film set.
    Let’s ask historians the importance that George Washington’s life work would hold for the country, if he never went past the property lines of his farm in Virginia.
    Let’s ask physicists the influence Einstein’s career would have on their work if he stopped studying math and physics at 11 years old, to spend his life competing with and coaching for the Swiss national water polo team. That’s gonna be important too. And they owe it to the public to spill it all. And don’t get all indignant and try to say water polo is not important, I simply don’t accept that, never will.  

    In the context that this reasoning is being done by a govt agency, I don’t see why you have to get so sarcastic (g). Please don’t ask them to break with a formula for reasoning that has been so useful for so long.

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    john1701a

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (7:18 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: …That comes out to about 35 mpg overall. Not bad for a long road trip maybe done once or twice a year. I doubt the Prius would get much better on a long road trip like that as there is not much breaking to recharge the battery. The Prius is great for traffic jams in Chicago and NY, but on the open road for a long burst, it drops off.

    You’re joking, right?

    I did a road trip last weekend, about 50 miles of highway each direction. The Prius averaged 54 MPG the entire time I was cruising at 65 MPH, without any braking.


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    kdawg

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    Charlie H: The potential customer can then plug in his values or create a simple spreadsheet and project his use.

    That is the step I was doing for them w/a graph. A lot of people don’t know what a spreadsheet is or epsecially how to set one up. But they do know their driving habits and could use a graph to help them predict their fuel usage.

    Also, I believe the EPA groups the Volt in with other PHEV’s (parallel or series). So they are trying to come up w/a way to compare them all. They are not going to come out w/a specific rating system for each mfg’s car. Like I stated before, I have no problem giving the customer the “miles per charge” and “CS mpg” #’s, but other tools should also be given as well.


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    nuclearboy

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (8:26 am)

    flmark: I pointed out two QUALITATIVE examples with respect to formerly iced up waterways which are now becoming shipping lanes. Glaciers the world over which have been photographed for over a hundred years- vanishing. Back in the ’80s, I started seeing photos in National Geographic showing utility poles in Alaska tipped sideways, because the (formerly reliable) permafrost was no longer ‘perma’. There are numerous signs that point to the same thing.

    Well first, you complained that I smeared old Al. I was just pointing out that he has it coming.

    Secondly, your examples above are simply chicken little worrying about something they observe and the real problem is the shell game with the actual problem. The scientific debate is the cause not the effect. We all know that we have warmed up after the little ice age. I will add to your climate concerns that just 400 years ago rivers were frozen over routinely in the US and Europe in months where they are now completely ice free. Most people appreciate this warm up because it has significantly helped agricultural yields as does increased C02 (or plant food as it has historically been called).

    The debate is not whether some ice has melted, Thank goodness some has. The debate is over the cause of this melting, the impact of this melting, and whether we can do anything to prevent further melting if it truly is a problem.

    The Warmists blame warming on Man (some type of liberal guilt) and line up a continual list of things caused by global warming (everything bad) and then they have devised strategies that will not solve the problem (like cap and trade).

    Bottom line, your examples are worthless and do not address the questions. Show me a real global warming model that demonstrates the earths energy balance with a few of the major feedback mechanisms and we can talk. Outside of that, you are just parroting misinformation.

    Just like driving up energy costs will cause death and starvation in the third world, chicken little’s friends all died at the end of the story for believing in his unfounded theory.


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    Truman

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (8:29 am)

    jeffhre:
    That’s a novel idea. Build an electric car and publish the specs for when you never get propulsion from electricity, only gasoline, because it’s never plugged in. Got it. Because it’s important.

    The Volt is an Extended Range Electric Vehicle, not an electric vehicle.
    If you are not in the least interested in the Charge Sustaining Mode, its MPG, or you don’t even know what that means, you should be looking into Electric Vehicles, not EREV’s.

    For those that understand the Volt, the CS MPG is an interesting, useful fact.
    Because it’s important.


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    LazP

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (8:33 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Well, it was a long day but I finally found time to finish this:  

    Great job corvetteguy.
    To satisfy everyone you could have repeated your chart display with 45 mpg charge sustaining mode as a second scenario since we do not have the real number.


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    Jim I

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (8:37 am)

    Tagamet:
    I’d just omitted the word “self-inflicted” from the “Sound of single gunshot” phrase, so I guess it would be none of the above. But the Dirty Harry one would be interesting with GM in the role of the other fellow. “So are you going to cough up that mileage score, or are you feeling lucky, punk?”Keep smiling,
    Tagamet  

    ============================

    But those are good links, don’t you think????

    :-)


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    Truman

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (8:55 am)

    nuclearboy:
    The Warmists blame warming on Man (some type of liberal guilt)…

    Perhaps you will understand climate science better by the time you’re a nuclearman.
    So much Science, so little Time.


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    Charlie H

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (10:06 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Well, it was a long day but I finally found time to finish this:  (Quote)

    That’s an understandable and useful chart.

    If I were you, I might tweak the text a bit… “37 mpg effective” would be the term I would use. I I am not saying your use of “combined” is “wrong.” My suggestion is a preference of mine.


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    Jscott1000

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (10:15 am)

    speedy:
    Right !!, please your wishinglikeso many on hereit too be low,soyoucan callthevolt afailure.Gmknow’swhatthe number’sare.  

    I’m not wishing for the CS MPG to be low… But the fact that GM won’t tell us speaks for itself. The Volt is in a clas by itself, and will be more efficient for a great number of people. I would love to own one.

    However, if I were to drive it 3,000 miles across country and never plug it in along the way, it would be nice to know the MPG I could expect. During the freedom drive I hear they got 50 mpg while plugging it in. It seems reasonable that CS MPG is in the 30s. The facts speak for themselves here.


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    Charlie H

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (10:22 am)

    nuclearboy: The Warmists blame warming on Man (some type of liberal guilt) and line up a continual list of things caused by global warming (everything bad) and then they have devised strategies that will not solve the problem (like cap and trade).

    Get real.

    Go to RealClimate.org. The most recent article is titled “Happy Birthday, Global Warming.” This article shows that the history of Climate Models that DO take into account the effect of CO2 ACTUALLY PREDICT WHAT WE ARE SEEING. There a notes about very old papers that you can read. The original models were created over 30 years ago by people you have never hear about in the Rightard press and their predictions are actually quite solid, they predicted the warming that we have seen to date (within reasonable errors – the real scientists talk often about uncertainty in the best statistical sense – which is then taken out of context by the Rightard drumbeat of ideology – but I digress). The author of the article also takes the time to point out why those models were inadequate and sheds light on what’s being done to correct that.

    The science is SOLID.

    Go read the article. You might learn something.


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    Charlie H

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (10:30 am)

    LazP: Great job corvetteguy.To satisfy everyone you could have repeated your chart display with 45 mpg charge sustaining mode as a second scenario since we do not have the real number.  (Quote)

    He did the right thing by going with numbers we have reason to believe to be correct, the 340 mile range which GM has been using consistently for some months and the 9 gallon tank, which is the number CR gave Lyle (and CR also said “around $40K” and they were right on that).


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    EricLG

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (2:51 pm)

    I wonder why people are not asking how it is possible for the ’40 mile EV’ to be outed by GM for years, but the CS mpg forced to remain a secret.

    Disappointment #1: Price
    Disappointment #2: CS mpg
    Disappointment #3 ? : EV range

    40 miles using 8 kwh works out to 200 wh/mile. That is a hard number to hit in real-world driving. In fact, many people consume 300 wh/mile, and lead-feet hit 400 wh/mile with some fancy brake-work. Add some rain/ice/snow to the roads and cold temps, and the energy requirements go up higher — a lot higher if conditions are nasty.

    Since EV range is ymmv just like ICE mpg, I expect EPA to field FOUR numbers (ranges) for plug-ins:
    City EV range;
    City CS mpg;
    Highway EV range;
    Highway CS mpg.


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    EricLG

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (3:14 pm)

    I didn’t explain where my wh/mile numbers come from, in order not to murder by boredom the folk who “just want to drive the car!” You have been warned ;)

    My experience is with Prius. Efficient use of the ICE yields about 12 kwh/gallon for the drivetrain.
    60 mpg is 200 wh/mile;
    40 mpg is 300 wh/mile;
    30 mpg is 400 wh/mile.

    I do not have any reliable estimates of Volt transmission Vs Prius transmission losses, so presume them about equal. Yes, feel free to put transmission is quotes. Known though, that the Volt is ~ 25% heavier and has about 11% higher drag.

    A large histogram of Prius drivers shows < 2% average 60+ mpg, average is about 48 mpg, and the other side of the curve is < 40 mpg.


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    storm

     

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    Jul 30th, 2010 (10:11 pm)

    Mark A: Why would I spend $41,000 on a car when I don’t know even the highway mpg in CS mode?Wouldn’t that factor into my calculations for the overall cost savings that would offset the price?  

    If you buy a Mercedes, what is the cost savings? If you want real cost savings, buy a 10 yr old car. No new car offers cost savings. Sales tax, property tax, insurance cost and a host of other costs means that to save money you would never buy a new car. You buy a particular car because that is the one you want. There are many cars that sell for $40-50,000. If you want one of them more than a Volt, buy one of them.

    The last car I bought new was in 1963. I want a Volt. I have no illusions that it will save money. Nor will any other new car. Get over it. Buy a Lexus or an Escalade if you think they offer more value for your dollar. The feature I want is electric drive with an onboard range extender. What features are you willing to pay for?

    Anybody know the trailer towing capacity of the Volt?


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    EricLG

     

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    Jul 31st, 2010 (1:12 am)

    Well put Storm,
    I think the argument you will hear though is that a 300 mile range extender is on every car built for the past century; that an 8 kwh EV car should cost a lot less than US$ 41k, and the marriage of the two is happier for many in a two car garage.

    It is a bit of an irony that people are tying to defend the anticipated poor CS mpg by presuming that ICE use will be a rare occurrence; but in doing so, they minimize the value of putting the two together in the first place.


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    TAL

     

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    Aug 4th, 2010 (3:48 am)

    GOOOOOD Moooorning America !!!

    Cut it short – if you don’t think to use the Volt in the absolute majority of cases purely electrically charged/driven, don’t buy it!!! (and don’t waste your time with academic discussions!).

    I believe in Europe the official CO2 Emissions/mile of electric cars (f(MPG)!!) will be calculated on the basis:
    Consumption (kWh) on pure electric drive (for as long as the battery will take you! … Measured at the socket i.e.: including losses while charging)
    plus
    Consumption on additional 25km (15,53 miles) in range extender mode (“to find the next plug-in”).
    The Emissions in CO2/miles will be the average over the sum of miles achieved.

    Does this spark the academic hearts of a few!?

    Good luck!

    TAL


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    Eliezer

     

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    Aug 5th, 2010 (2:29 pm)

    What could be worse than Gm announcing a lower than expected CS MPG?

    GM witholding the information until it blows up in their face.


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    Eliezer

     

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    Aug 5th, 2010 (2:33 pm)

    storm: If you buy a Mercedes, what is the cost savings? If you want real cost savings, buy a 10 yr old car. No new car offers cost savings. Sales tax, property tax, insurance cost and a host of other costs means that to save money you would never buy a new car. You buy a particular car because that is the one you want. There are many cars that sell for $40-50,000. If you want one of them more than a Volt, buy one of them. The last car I bought new was in 1963. I want a Volt. I have no illusions that it will save money. Nor will any other new car. Get over it. Buy a Lexus or an Escalade if you think they offer more value for your dollar. The feature I want is electric drive with an onboard range extender. What features are you willing to pay for?Anybody know the trailer towing capacity of the Volt?  (Quote)

    The bottom line is that the Volt is all about fuel EFFICIENCY… therefore the MPG is important to consumers, no matter what the price is. It’s kinda like buying a Mercedes without knowing what luxury features it has.


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    TAL

     

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    Aug 6th, 2010 (7:11 am)

    I wouldn NOT buy a VOLT because it is “efficient”!

    I would buy it, because it is:
    - an innovative concept
    - smooth yet powerful (the teslar did blow my mind!)
    - environmentally friendly (when you buy renewable energy)
    - hopefully less maintenace
    - a “show off” ;-P