Wow. Its hard to believe we finally know how much the Volt will cost. $41,000 well-equipped before the $7500 federal tax credit. Or $350 per month for a three year 36 month lease, and $2500 down, at 12,000 miles per year.
Of course yesterday turned out to be one of the highest traffic spike days in GM-Volt history as every news media outlet across the globe reported pricing, and Googlers found themselves here. Welcome to all.
Clearly the $41,000 price tag was more than most people, including myself, expected. Our GM-Volt want list of 52,499 people said they were willing to pay an average of $31,445.62, which would have meant $39,000 before the tax credit. In a recent poll of 1200 GM-Volt readers only 12% predicted the Volt’s price would be more than $40,000.
The lease price is much lower than expected, though. Assuming one doesn’t object to the idea of leasing, $350 is very reasonable, and “will allow a lot of our customer to purchase a Volt” said Volt marketing director Tony Disalle. And that appears to be GM’s point. They seem to prefer people to lease the car. Like Nissan, GM is using the $7500 tax credit to subsidize the lease price.
$41,000 speaks of a more premium car though than a basic Chevy sedan. Though the technology , experience, and connectedness of the car and the priceless gift of being able to drive without oil and drive without limits surely adds value, the basic driving experience and space is similar to a conventional compact sedan. Not to mention standard cloth seats.
At an effective cost of $33,500 however what the buyer gets is more reasonably in line with the price.
The lithium ion battery and associated technology makes up a large portion of the excess cost in the Volt. At this early point in time trying to prove buying the Volt offers economic advantage simply isn’t possible. As some reporters have said we must “throw away the calculator”. Buying a Volt now is a matter of wanting to be the first to posses new groundbreaking technology and being highly motivated to drive without oil. It is not to save money. However, at a lease pricing economic advantages of electricity over gas do come into play.
Now that the prices are known, further comparisons with Nissan’s LEAF BEV are inevitable and rampant. In many ways the LEAF is a similar car in driving behavior, function, size, and technology though glaringly does not offer range extension and is thus less useful. The LEAF effectively costs $8200 less than the Volt, though the lease is roughly the same, Volt has a $500 more down payment. Some pundits ask whether the elimination of range anxiety is worth $8200. Your guess is as good as mine. However once again at the same lease cost the answer is obvious.
Nissan has surprisingly matched GM’s Volt battery warranty and has announced the LEAF battery warranty will be 8 years/100,000 miles as well. This is despite the LEAFs deeper depth of discharge and lack of thermal management. GM claims it can offer the Volt for the same lease price as the LEAF, despite it being a more expensive car, due to its tremendous confidence in its battery technology.
The issue of how GM has priced the car boils down to availability. GM will produce 10,000 Volts through the end of 2011, and Nissan will produce 25,000 LEAFs. Both cars will be rolled out in a graduated fashion accross the country, and many would-be buyers won’t get realistic access to the cars until the end of 2011 or beginning of 2012.
Considering this very limited availability both companies will undoubtedly sell out their entire inventory. Thus the price really doesn’t matter.
Even though we’ve been watching this day on the horizon for more than three years its significance cannot be overstated. The high entry point for the Volt has much to do with a new GM unwilling to sell cars at a loss. The old GM might have sold them at a loss, but included in the $41,000 MSRP is some element of profit. CEO Ed Whitacre once assured “we’ll get a margin,” on the Volt. And its the new GM and its financial strength we count on for future generations of Voltec technology. Indeed US Marketing director Joel Ewanick promised “the Volt is just the beginning” and many other Voltec offerings will be on their way in the years ahead.
What’s important here and now is that the affluent early-adopter, with little or no regard for price will buy up all the Volts and LEAFs there are. This will open the door for lower priced future generations to come, and a world less and less dependant on oil. And at a bargain lease of $350 per month GM has opened the door for almost any consumer to drive a Volt.
Let the games begin.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, July 28th, 2010 at 6:15 am and is filed under Financial. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+22
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:20 am)I want to apologize to anyone I may have offended yesterday.
+9
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:24 am)I think many people are missing the issue on the lease. The reason it is so “Cheap” is that they get the $7500 tax credit and therefor, even thought he car may depreciate to 25,000 in 3 years, GM has only experienced $8,500 (In this case) of depreciation.
So don’t compare 350/mo with 41k, you need to compare it with getting a 41,000 car for $33,500. Meaning, you could most likely drive this car for 18months and sell if for almost the same amount you actually paid for it.
I’ll pay cash.
+23
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:24 am)From the article:
Some pundits ask whether the elimination of range anxiety is worth $8200.
Yes. Because I don’t need a second car.
+15
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:28 am)—
You have nothing to apologize for. I read all your comments and thought they were reasonable, especially in light of some provocative statements sent your way. You did an amazing job of keeping a good balance under circumstances where I would not have been able to do so, a stability that I admire.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:34 am)I went to a local Chevy (sorry, I mean Chevrolet) dealer yesterday to see if I could get on a ‘wait list’. I confirmed that this dealer in South Jersey was one of the 600 dealers getting the Volt before I went.
Of course the salesmen were clueless (“The Volt will always use gas if you use it on the highway”, another one told me “We’ll be getting some Volts in August”). I’m always surprised about how little salesmen know about upcoming products.
Anyway, the ‘online manager’ took my information and put me on an ‘e-mail list’ and told me they would call me and e-mail me when they get their first ones in. Interestingly, one of the managers told me that the Volt is being treated similarly by this dealership to the Chevy SSR ($42,0000 Super Sport Roadster version of the S-10 pickup). Sadly, if this is the case, they are expecting very slow sales: The SSR only sold about 24,000 units in 3 years.
I hope this dealer is as clueless about demand as they are about other aspects of the Volt.
+13
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:38 am)Wow. Thank you, RB. It was a tough day for me.
I was disappointed in GM. First with the bumper to bumper warranty, then the price.
But what’s done is done. I’ll move on, as flmrk suggested.
I spoke with wifey last night. She told me I was more interested in Gen II. I didn’t know that. Thank goodness I have her to tell me how to think.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:39 am)I am still wondering about the REAL MPG when the battery has drained and the genset has kicked in. Not looking for some voodoo magic calculation where the daily commute of 40 battery miles is factored in……………….. Anyone know the gas tank size fur sure?
Thanks
+8
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:42 am)I would love to have been a fly on the wall as GM’s management sorted through all the conflicting factors that they considered before announcing a price.
My head says the price is a logical biz decision — plenty of demand, cool new technology, and a limited supply. My heart says it’s way too much.
And then there’s that whole lease price, which IMO is totally intended to compell customers to lease rather than buy.
And frankly, a lease would be a great option regardless of the price. Battery tech is rapidly evolving. Just today Autoblog Green has an update on Planar Energy’s solid-state Li-ion battery that would make LG Chem’s apporach obsolete.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/planar-energy-to-begin-small-scale-production-of-solid-state-bat/
Given this brave new world, why not lease and get better tech in three years?
But still, that price… it will be an gut-reaction turn-off for many who were waiting on the sidelines.
-2
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:43 am)You cannot sugarcoat this exorbitant pricetag. 41K is way too high and eliminates most US car buyers. The market for the Volt is now very elite which is obviously what GM wants as evidenced by their anemic production goals.
Beware the lease. We have been there and done that with GM. A lease allows GM to take the car back from you in the event they decide they no longer want to support this electric car.
This is all really bad news and portends the Volt’s inevitable demise. The car will now be a non-starter and essentially meaningless for GM.
+27
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:45 am)Interesting. One dealer I spoke with was somewhat in the know on the Volt. But couldn’t get away from the traditional old school “hot for the car, sign today, we’re ordering them today” routine. People are not buying the Volt to be first. Or to be flashy. As Jay Leno stated, “You won’t see them at Bob’s Big Boy”.
It’s a statement against the oil rape we’re being put through. And the need to train, transport, and sometimes bury fine young American soldiers. It’s about the smoke in the air. And the noise on the city streets. And it’s about making a living for American’s and Canadiens in the Detroit area. As the GM representitives said yesterday. This is just the start.
=D-Volt
+27
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:47 am)I love the Volt but I think the price is too high for most.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:53 am)As long as people are willing to wait a year to get a Volt, here’s a way to save hundreds more off the sales price. Go get a GM credit card. You can start using the card rebates towards a Volt in November, 2011. They have not announced the rebate limit on the Volt, but other GM models seem to have a maximum of $1000. At 5% of purchases, you’d have to run $20K through the card to reach that level.
https://www.gmcard.com/GMCard/
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:56 am)Wow, the CS mpg must have really come out good.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:58 am)Be warned… I’m fairly certain the list of 600 dealers that I linked to yesterday does NOT imply they’re all getting Volts in 2010. In the web chat at 4pm, Tony answered a GM salesman’s question about Volt availability. His dealership was on the list of 600, and is in Houston, but Tony said he would not get a Volt until later in 2011.
So if the dealership doesn’t know specific information about allocation, it’s very likely they won’t be getting the first wave. I was excited about an East Syracuse, NY dealer listed on the 600, but they have no clue either. Given Tony’s answer to the other salesman, I’m sticking to dealers who have definitive information about their allocations.
join thE REVolution
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:59 am)Let me join you Rashiid by adding my apologies to anyone here that my post #9 yesterday (with over 70 +1’s) might have offended and/or even misled!
In fact, I’ve already apologized to Lyle by email, as follows:
“Lyle, you’ve got a whale by the tail re the Volt pricing issue. Enjoy the ride! And congrats on yesterday’s high # of hits.
“As you may have noticed, I made a post early yesterday that caused a tsunami resulting in >70 pluses & numerous quotes, but like a few others I later realized I’d been so blinded by the GM MSRP that I couldn’t see what they’d done with the lease.
“Hope my monster wave didn’t drown too many loyal gm-volt bloggers!
For those who didn’t see my retraction (and complete turnaround), please have a look at yesterday’s post #490….
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:01 am)Priced NOT to sell, thereby conforming with the very low production numbers. What a concept!
I’m afraid I have been disappointed with GM’s performance on everything but the car itself. The warranty falls just a little short: NOT 10 yrs, 150,000 miles for the battery as we had hoped, and the basic 3 yr warranty for such new technology at premium car prices is weak: BMWs, Mercedes’ and other premium compacts in this price range all have 5 yr, 60,000 mile basic warranties (and leather seats!)
At least this should probably deter greedy dealers from adding hefty “delivery” or “handling” or “dealer increment” price gouging amounts to the retail price, which is already so high.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:04 am)Have the prices for the individual options been announced?
+17
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:04 am)I read recently that ford will have 4 plug in vehicles on sale by the 2013 model year (The focus BEV and a few hybrid plug-in types). Other car companies will be there too in two years. There will be plenty of competition out their that comes with a plug. The plug is the best way to reduce or eliminate oil usage since the power comes from other sources.
Driving with some power from the electric grid is here to stay. The Volt is just the tip of the iceberg. Volt Version 2 will not be cancelled because it will be needed to compete.
It should also be noted that most people who would like a Volt would not get Version 1.0 even if they gave them away for free. 40,000 units is a small number for the US market. The price for Version 1 is fair IMO since people will be willing to pay it and it gives GM the opportunity to build some Volt recognition and make some money (hopefully).
IF the Volt Version 2.0 can be made a little cheaper, it will show that GM is concerned about lowering cost and people will be happy to be able to get a car that was costing $41K and now is a little cheaper. This will show GM is trying to help.
The challenge for GM is to complete the process of lowering the cost and increasing production numbers for Volt V2.0 (which should be a more refined EREV).
In the end, this just pushes things back a little for those who dreamed of buying a cheap Volt and being an early adopter.
I remember following closely the development of the DVD standard and the eventual DVD players as they were being developed and thinking how much this would improve my home theater system over the VHS. I had the perfect home theater at the time (laid out to dolby digital specs) and was ready for the introduction of DVD players. CD players could be had for less than $50 and the DVD players were very similar in design (a different laser pickup but the same size and shape). I was really down when the first models arrived and were in the $500+ range. I set this craze out even though I had an expensive home theater setup at the time. As I look back now, I realize that the sub $100 unit that I finally bought is actually better than the original $500 dollar units because it has more features.
I know cars don’t change as fast as electronics but EREVs and BEVs will eventually be cars for the masses. We just cannot expect that to be true at Version 1.0.
+11
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:07 am)I asked this last night at just about the end of that very long thread:
Does anyone know if this low lease price will just be a teaser rate for the 2011 model year only?
If it is, then this rate will only be in place for 8K vehicles, and not really help any of the rest of us.
And Rashiid, don’t worry about it. We were all pissed yesterday.
Today, I am just unhappy that I now have to wait, yet again……………. I have been waiting for over thirty years for this vehicle and I thought that this time I was really going to be an early adopter, but no such luck.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:07 am)The pricing makes perfect sense, when they ramp up production the price will come down and GEN 2 will be an even better value. Oil prices will go up in a few years and the EREV/BEV will gain market share rapidly.
For now as I try and figure what I can get first, the Leaf, the Volt, or whatever, Leasing seems the best deal, but I still will need to know what the charge for extra miles are.
If I get a lease for 36 months and drive 60,000 miles (95% AER charging twice a day), I need to know the charge for driving those extra 24,000 miles.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:07 am)Sadly, I’m still thinking the CS mode will be around 32MPG, if that. They stated “up to 340 mile range” in yesterday’s press release at media.gm.com, and we’re fairly certain it’s a 9 gallon tank from previous reports, including an article on GM-Volt.
This is one of those cases though where I’ll be happy to be wrong though.
Even with that lower MPG, factoring in the 40 mile all electric range, I’ll use about the same gas for a 375 mile trip as I do with my Honda Civic (measured avg 36MPG on trips). So my occasional long trip will use no more gas, and all my commuting will be gas free. Still seems like a pretty good deal.
join thE REVolution
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:10 am)Competition is usually a good thing for the consumer.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:11 am)Like you and Rashiid, I was upset too Nasaman. I still think you hit the nail on the head in your post #9 though. We all still love the Volt concept, but they’re setting it up in a way that prevents mass adoption. A lower price could have really insured they got high demand and ramped up production to show the US that there is an affordable alternative to being addicted to oil.
GM’s sentiment was summed up yesterday on a CNN article about the Volt pricing, that I quoted yesterday at post #207: Pricing for the Volt isn’t a terribly critical business decision for GM, Toprak said, since the car is expected to lose money, anyway, during its initial run. It’s really an image-making “halo car” for GM. Source: CNN
How many times have they said that it’s not a “halo car” and they want to really use the tech across their product lines? Now we have GM saying it’s just a halo car.
I still love the Volt and hope to get one of the first, that doesn’t prevent the perceptions that will ensue with the general population regarding this now-announced $41k technology.
join thE REVolution
+6
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:14 am)LOL. Gee, that’s usually my standard greeting the day after a good night of drinking!
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:19 am)I’m all over getting a Volt to drive for three years for $15,100. That is perfect. That gives me the perfect time to move on to my next vehicle, whether its gen II, or another vehicle. Thanks GM, now add Florida dealers!!
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:19 am)OK guys, somebody please explain to me how this is not “the launch” (and 4 months early). Well, cars are not being delivered today (that I know of). But it is officially proper for dealers to take orders — that is BIG.
-12
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:22 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:29 am)You should be able to build the extra miles into the lease up front, that is how leases typically work. That way they are a bit cheaper and they will be spread out over the monthly payment rather than a huge bulk sum at the expiration on the lease agreeement.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:31 am)Thanks Jason. Want to join us? lol
+7
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:34 am)Thanks for the info. There are 3 Chevy dealers within 10 miles of my house, so I’m going to visit each one of them and hopefully one of them will get a Volt in 2010.
Good point Dave K – “It’s a statement against the oil rape we’re being put through. “
I tried to make this point to the salesman, saying, “I just don’t want to use any gas”. I actually rode my Kawasaki Super Sherpa to the dealership – a motorcycle on which I average 80 mpg – and explained that it still wasn’t good enough. He looked at me like I had three heads and tried to talk me into a Malibu or Camaro (‘the Camaro’s get really good mileage – up to 29 mpg’). Sure, but they still ALWAYS use gas, which props up the price of oil to fund those who seek to do us harm. Not to mention the environmental impact.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:35 am)It is expected that the Chevy dealers will mark up the price of the Volt. Question is, can they mark up the price of the lease? Or is that set by GM?
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:36 am)I wonder how much insurance is going to be on a $41K car….. Where’s that Progressive lady?
+17
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:39 am)I just want to thank Lyle for shepherding us thru this long journey. Now we know what we have to do to have a Volt in the driveway. It looks like leasing will be the way to go for many of us. Its a big financial commitment but worth it for me since I have dreamed about a car like this for as long as I can remember! Good luck to everyone on making their dream come true.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:42 am)Well Pops remembers paying $1000 for a VCR in 1980 which is about $2-3K in today’s dollars. Crazy yes but he had to have it. Even at 41K, the car still prob costs more to make with so much new technology. I’ll be interested to see what that cost finally ends up being reported as. The EV1 cost $250000 for each one, a former owner told me. To make an aluminum can would cost about $10 but with technology they are pennies. In time the price of electric cars will come down to where the common people can buy them. Right now the Volt is for collectors and fanatics about saving the Earth. I am one.
+7
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:42 am)O.K. I guess I should come clean too. My posts yesterdays were personally motivated to discourage potential buyers so I would have a better chance of getting one of the first 10,000 Volts. I sincerely apologize for this.
With that said; good luck in getting your Volts, leased or bought.
NPNS!
-7
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:42 am)This is how GM says thanks for the bailout America. That’s ok says GM I’ll just take the bailout money I used for development and sell the Volt for more in China they don’t care about anything. This a quite a deal for GM 7500$ for rebate and tax deductions for develoment costs and bailout money. This has all been fun to watch I expected better out of GM
-24
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:43 am)(click to show comment)
+12
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:43 am)I dont post often, But have been on this website every day for three years.
41K is too much, and I wont lease. $15.1K with nothing to show for it after three years.
Maybe Gen II, or III or used. 1 Kid in college and two on their way in a few years.
+8
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:46 am)Hey Lyle,
Now that the fun is over how does one get their name and information removed from your want list?
Thanks,
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:47 am)While I never once considered buying a Volt, I follow closely because eventually a new drivetrain will arrive that I will buy. Voltec II, or III, or in the words of some people who frequent this site, the Fuel Cell Voltec that never arrives. But for those who were really hoping to be able to afford one, it must be a huge letdown. I have the same problem with golf clubs.
It’s a single day in the millenia of human progress.
A hand calculator that barely did arithmatic, once cost more than an I-Pad, adjusting for inflation. It just works that way.
And no, GM, I won’t be buying an ICE GM any time soon because you showed your “green-nees” with an EREV drivetrain. I went to my Nissan dealer with a 600 dollar problem, not under warranty. When I told them “If I wanted a 600 dollar repair bill, I would have kept my Pontiac” the manager laughed and then RIPPED UP THE BILL.
Guess I’ll have to look a little closer at a LEAF next year.
+27
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:53 am)What shocked me yesterday was the negative comments by what I thought were people that understood the VOLT is a unique piece of high technology. You will always pay for game changing high technology when it first comes out.
My previous posts always compared this to computers coming out in the Late 1980’s /early 1990’s. The masses did not start getting computers until the mid-90’s and it did not explode until about 1998. When prices dropped. Remember AOL had a serious issue with supplying the internet because of the surge of new customers in 1998? This technology will take 5 years to sort itself out and become cost effective for the masses.
It appears most of the people here expect something for nothing. They cry about the fall of U.S. manufacturing and complain about the low cost junk coming out of China, but when some highly (deserved) paid engineers bring a truly great technology forward they cry because they actually have to pay a fair price.
I have always said the price would be closer to mid-$40K and received -1s from what I thought were clueless people. And when you consider leasing the vehicle, even a modest income person, willing to sacrifice, can afford the technology.
I applaud GM for not putting some cheap “green washed” junk onto the market. I applaud them for understanding all of the technical aspects like thermal management. This all costs money. Nissan has built a low technology vehicle which may work fine for a small market of people. They can give a battery warranty equal to GM because they think people will not be keeping the car for 8 years. Most consumers, dump their cars in the 3-5 year range and move on. They will not experience the battery problems. Who ever buys the car after them will and I suspect Nissan will not be easy to deal with as the second or third owner.
The ones who do not understand should go to a different web site for people that believe everything should be low cost and low technology. I can only hope GM was not reading the Blog here yesterday. All the comments about putting names on wait lists and traveling at their own expense to see the VOLT at a car show, and somehow thinking that entitled them to a VOLT for the same price as a Leaf. WOW — It was an embarrassment.
I have always said the early adopters will pay top dollar and I have always said I will be buying my VOLT around release 4.0. I still plan on it. Most of you people need to grow up and get over it!
+8
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:54 am)When you consider a fully loaded Malibu can go over $30,000 I don’t see how anyone can be surprised by this price. Personally I expected it to be just under $40,000 but then none of us know what it is costing to make a Volt right now. GM is under absolutely no obligation to sell this car to us at a loss! No mass appeal because of price? Elite only? Stand by the side of the road or look at the vehicles in a parking lot and count how many are over $40,000! Suburbans, Tahoes, loaded pickups, Buick Enclaves, Cadillacs etc are all examples of GM vehicles that are over $40,000.
Next is the issue of dealer markup. Why should GM price this vehicle with no profit or even a loss just so the dealers can charge more? This vehicle will be in hot demand at any price and the dealers know it. There will be some dealers who will not mark up but don’t expect anything less than MSRP and they will be the exception.
Costs will come down with GenII and GenIII and competition will force GM to lower the price if they can and by then they will be able to. I wonder how many of those who are furious about the price would have sold there car on Ebay if they were able to purchase it for say $25K and they were changing hands online for $41K? Hypothetical questions are tough but if you can be honest and at least admit you would be tempted then you really have nothing to complain about.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:58 am)A poll is available at autoblog.com “Chevy Volt Takes on Leaf” where currently 44% would buy a Volt compared to 26% for a Leaf. This poll reflects the Volt’s price tag.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/poll-chevrolet-volt-takes-on-nissan-leaf/
+5
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:01 am)I suspect GM will lower the price on the Volt in the future. I’m sure they are taking into consideration that the initial 10,000 will easily be sold out at the high price of $41K. I predict that 3 years from now the price will have dropped to the low thirties, before any rebate that may exist at that time.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:02 am)Hmmm… I wonder how the lease agreement reads? Do you have the irrevocable option to buy or is it really GM’s option whether or not you can buy it?
Of course, the lease is subvented with the artificially high residual value. GM will book a $41K sale today and take the writeoff later, when nobody’s looking or make the captive finance company do it (and, lo and behold, they recently bought a captive finance company to push around). GM used this practice a lot, pre-bankruptcy. It’s not surprising to see that it’s back.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:08 am)I think that this is excellent advice. I called MANY dealers, and until I found one that knew some specifics about allotments, passed on them. The one I put the deposit with could answer specific questions with specific (#’s) answers, so I was very comfortable with them.
Be well and patient,
Tagamet
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:10 am)Is anyone tired of hearing about “range anxiety”? I’m sure GM and Lyle will continue to scare us with this label. Realistically, if you’re smart enough to understand the benefits of electric vehicles and the need for reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, then you’re probably smart enough to not deplete your Nissan Leaf batteries. All is takes is a calculator and/or a map. Most people have predictable driving habits (home-work-home) that are conducive to a BEV. Plus, wasn’t GM bragging about how 80-something percent of people drive less than 40 miles a day?
I just placed a deposit on a Leaf as a direct result of the high Volt price. I’m not interested in renting a car for three years and worrying about every little ding, dent, and mile. The Leaf’s pure electric drivetrain will require less maintenance anyway.
Lyle wrote: “Considering this very limited availability both companies will undoubtedly sell out their entire inventory. Thus the price really doesn’t matter.” The price DOES matter…..and from what I can read, more than 90% of yesterday’s comments were negative toward the $41,000 price. Honestly, I don’t think the Volt will sell out, even at 10,000 units this year.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:10 am)I sincerely wanted a Volt. I wanted to get one for the missus as she is not interested in a pure BEV but I simply am not willing to make the payments on a 41K car.
In 2004, I bought a new Avalanche for 30K to pull my camper and I thought i was gonna faint. Signing for a note that totals more than 41K would render me unconscious.
I have never leased a vehicle and probably never will. I just don’t understand the economic value of the lease. Three of the four vehicles I own are paid for and that is a wonderful feeling.
Finally, GM is making money on the Volt, just not as much as they do on Tahoes and Suburbans.
It cost GM about 6 to 8K to produce their cars and about 12K to produce their trucks and SUV’s. This, of course, is the magic of mass production and is what enables auto companies to have such huge marketing budgets, inventories, pensions, 5K rebates, etc. It is estimated that the Volt costs them about 30K to manufacture, which is largely attributable to the Li ion battery pack, so at 41K, they can make a profit (which I do not begrudge any company).
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:12 am)Not individually AFAIK, but they have a $# for all of them combined.
Be well and patient,
Tagamet
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:18 am)Thank you Jason. I’m in a much better mood today.
Have a nice day.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:19 am)I have to admit that I didn’t give your first post a +1, even though I too was shocked by the MSRP. I “bailed” with a “time for a break” comment, but felt just as low.
They do obviously intend for people to lease the Volt, with the way they are presenting it, and it should be more than competitive with the Leaf, depending on individual needs.
I read every post yesterday and overall I don’t think that too much damage was sustained by GM. I KNOW that having 10,000 people out there driving the Volt will be all the advetizing the Volt will need to be spectacularly successful.
Be well and patient,
Tagamet
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:22 am)Jim, post # 38. There is nothing to show for ANY lease. The Volt lease is no different. I think it is very reasonable and will have many takers. Lease a Cadillac CTS for $499 for 39 months and you are out $20,461 with nothing to show for it, also. So, Volts $350 is very attractive.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:26 am)I second that. I have been a GM card holder since 1991 and been grandfathered into a deal which is no longer available. Nonetheless, 5% cash back is something that is hard to beat (if you know you’ll be buying a GM product).
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:32 am)Does that go for your anti-GM rant on the LEAF page, too ?
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:32 am)This pretty much sums up yesterday for a lot of us, Jim. Having slept on it now, I think that in the long run this will actually be *good* for my individual family’s situation. We were really going to STRETCH to check this off the bucket list, but now we’ll see what’s out there a few years after the tech settles down (and maybe batteries are even better than they are now). So I guess everything *does* happen as it was meant to.
Be well and patient,
Tagamet
PS No idea about the teaser lease rate.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:33 am)I am thinking the Nissan LEAF is looking good. I wanted to buy American. But availabilty is my problem. I wanted a BEV. I wanted to kick the oil problem. I think the price is fair, I may go put my deposit down today. Good luck to GM.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:37 am)Get a grip, dude ! Try the $350 lease deal instead – same as the Leaf for a LOT more car !
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:38 am)Good catch – thanks for posting. I am not knocking the LEAF, and hope it too meets the needs of some segment of the population. It is clear that the Volt has far greater utility for those who need a vehicle that can drive more than 100 miles in a 12 hour period, as you can continue to drive the Volt without sitting around waiting for a recharge.
Many government agencies and businesses have that need, and will happily lease the Volt.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:38 am)$41,000 for a vehicle that will sell out, why should GM price it less? That would only give the dealers more room to mark it up. Lease price is great if you’re going to drive less than 12,000 miles a year (I’d have 100,000 on it by the end of the lease). Granted, I didn’t read through the 600+ posts yesterday but with the tax credit for breakthrough technology that’s not bad folks.
Not sure which vehicle will be our next purchase (pesky wife thinks she needs a new one, only has 100,000 miles on hers vs. 183,000 on my primary car), but GM had better hurry up developing complimentary technology (hybrid, bev, etc.) because the competition’s coming.
Am getting tired of watching the latest “oil spill” in the news though…
-10
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:39 am)(click to show comment)
-1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:40 am)Forcing people into a lease sounds suspiciously like the EV1 business model.
+5
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:45 am)How about discussing all those Toyota recalls, Charlie ? Looking forward to all those lawsuits Toyota has coming ?
+6
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:47 am)And this post advances the conversation, er, HOW??
Be well and patient,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:49 am)Me too. You don’t need to set a “mass adoption” price if you only have 10,000 to sell.
Remember his VCR was replaced by DVD!
The cost to build a Volt can be set at any number the would like. How much of the development expense they choose to include is the wild card.
+10
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:56 am)Well, now that we have deposits on ALL of the VOLTs in our allocation I can tell you that we are slated to get 4 units “this year” and 2 units “next year”. The way the report reads is pretty vague, but it does seem to match what was announced in yesterday’s video conference.
We are in Southern California, and if we are getting most of them “this year” for the launch, that coincides with the statement told to the Texas dealer who was told they would not get ANY until next summer.
So to me, it sounds like the launch will move like a rolling blackout across the country: lots of fanfare for a short period of time in a state by state blitz.
That part of the plan sounds okay, but let’s go back to the beginning: 6 FREAKIN’ CARS!!! Just 6. Dang! This is very disappointing. I’ve run out of cars on Day 1. I sure hope that wakes GM up to build more. Please!
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:03 am)I think that you are trashing a lot of good people who were genuinely disappointed that the Volt will not fit their budget just yet – and encouraging people to *leave* seem more than a little over the top. Just a day later people are coming to terms with the disappointment and re-joining the discussion.
A simple “I was right and you were wrong” post would have sufficed. JMO.
Still a loyal gm-volt.com member,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:10 am)I’m glad to hear that you got something with a plug. Congrats.
It won’t take too long to hear whether the Volt has sold out.
Be well and patient,
Tagamet
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:12 am)I’ve been preaching that the volt DOES save money since very early on. I’ll revise that only to the volt DOES save money IF you pay cash or get a low low APR on your finance when you purchase.
the volt is going to save me about $3000 in fuel per year in fuel over what i drive now. I sell insurance so i drive alot, and get 23 mpg.
So if i pay $33,500 for a $41,000 car, keep it for 13 years, i’ll save $39,000 in fuel over what i drive now in that 13 years, that’s with gas at $2.80. I’ll save more in gas over 13 years than the price i paid for the car when it was new.
In 13 years i could make a big statement about how it all worked out like i said from the beginning, but 13 years after the volt comes out, everyone will already know electrics make economic sense, it’ll just be a little bit of reassurance when someone like me points out that back-in-the-day 13 years ago, even some of the very first electrics that cost more than gas cars still saved their owners money over the long haul, but again, everyone will agree with me by then anyways.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:14 am)From Planar:
“Our proprietary methodology will produce batteries that are superior to existing lithium-ion at less than half the cost per kilowatt-hour and with three times the energy density. These dramatic cost and performance improvements will move the automotive industry forward substantially on the path to make electric vehicles practical and affordable.”
You can bet that the GM Volt battery team is on top of this. They are continuously evaluating all options and if the Planar technology looks good enough LG Chem may license the technology for Gen II or more likely Gen III batteries.
If I read between the lines properly, this 50% reduction in price will be almost immediate with further reductions in the future as volume goes up and the technology matures.
Combined with other processes such as what Stanford University is attempting http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batteries&id=24758 will hopefully bring the breakthrough we need by 2015.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:14 am)You slept?
That depends on how much time is in your “bucket.”
The reason for a bucket list is that there is only so much time left. 
As long as we do what we were meant to do.
Be well indeed! – Michael
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:15 am)Not knowing the EPA rating and what I would do after a 3 year lease (never leased before) I’m inclined to wait and see. $33.5K is still more than the MSRP of my last new vehicle.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:16 am)To all of the Leaf switchers….
Dont forget to consider that Nissan REQUIRES you to have a $2000 charger installed prior to purchasing (or leasing the car). Dont forget to add that cost to the price.
Suddenly the Volt Lease looks better than the Leaf Lease…
I dont care I will still be buying a volt!
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:17 am)One day you will be embarrassed by you statements.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:17 am)Based on the number of post yesterday. The price was very important. (understatement) But in truth GM will sell everyone they build before they are even built. It is to bad GM can’t build enough for everyone at price everyone could fit into their budget. But that just was never going to happen withthe 1st gen. If GM priced the Volt high enough to make a profit and still have a great demand then that will make gen 2 and gen 3 more likely to move ahead quickly.
This car is still the most important new car in my life time. The Volt is still a game changer. The problem is it is a very long game. The Volt is just the start not the end of the game.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:17 am)Congrats on getting something with a plug. +1 I’m pretty sure that you will love the instant torque.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:18 am)The LOW lease price is as stunning as the HIGH sales price, anyone can afford the lease price alas by the time most of us have an opportunity to get a volt ,the $7500 will no longer be available and the lease price may well be $500 or higher.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:20 am)Nine gallons. But I too would like to know the MPG in CS mode.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:20 am)Corvette Guy, can you shed more info on the lease? In particular what is the pay-out at the end if one decides to purchase.
Keep us posted on your Volt sales orders, yesterday you were up to 7, and I know from your post about Camaros that you took more orders than your dealership was alloted but filled them all anyway. Do you think that may work for the Volt?
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:20 am)With the LOW lease price of the volt why would anyone even consider the Butt ugly 100% imported job killer LEAF. Only those who could care less if their fellow americans have jobs or not.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:23 am)Looks like I’m waiting for Gen II to arrive in Canada.
The pricing makes sense with the volume. Where Nissan is going more for broke, pricing low and ramping up volume, GM seems to be taking a more conservative approach. Since they are ramping up volume more slowly, all the Volts being built will be sold at the stated price, with excess demand in place. That’s all that really matters at this stage.
It seems to me like GM is essentially bypassing the Gen I Volt and concentrating on the Gen II for the masses. Since the Gen II is supposedly coming out so soon after the launch of Gen I, they may have realised during development that it would take a bit longer to make the Volt they had initially promised. So instead of delaying the launch, they gussied up Gen I with a bunch of gee-wiz tech, pulled back on production, and raised the price, all to by time for the development and launch of Gen II. The other bonus is that the Gen I essentially becomes a rolling lab for Gen II and III development. It’s all good for those with patience.
Looks like plan B is now in effect for the next couple of years for me though: stuffing 8kWh of plug-in batteries into a Prius. Since most of my trips are at least 60 miles, I’d still be using the same amount of electricity to get where I’m going and back, I just won’t be driving an EV. Not ideal, but a workable compromise.
Patience.
-2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:25 am)It takes a lot of hard work to make lemons out of my lemonade. Get some rest.
Tagamet
+5
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:27 am)+ eleventy. It’s about time people all come back to earth and face reality. It costs somewhat higher than I thought GM would price it, but if GM feels they need to price it at $41k in order to make it worth their efforts, then I cannot complain. The Volt is the one electric car that will finally establish electric cars as an enduring market segment. It will be small at first, but it will grow and become significant in time.
+5
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:27 am)I dont think most of us have any idea how important OTHER americans jobs are to our own. How our job is intimately tied to the jobs and success of other americans. That why we have so many so willing to send $20,000 t $30,000, checks to japan.germany,korea ect. For every 1 $Billion sent abroad 20000 americans like you and me lose their jobs.
-1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:29 am)Isn’t this just a tad oversimplified? There is more involved than jobs. Isn’t the idea to use less oil in hopes that *eventually* we’d lose fewer U.S. *lives*?
Be well and patient,
Tagamet
+9
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:30 am)Oh, I plan to keep taking orders. I still believe that production will ramp up faster than we have been told. GM needs the business. They will not drag their feet too long and let all that business go to the Japanese.
+19
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:31 am)The world revolves around people and organizations like GM, who are willing to take huge risks, work hard for years with no pay, make sacrifices, and who are mercilessly criticized by naysayers at every opportunity.
It does not pay much attention to the people who sit on the sidelines, do nothing buy carp, and then think every good thing in life that others create should somehow be free.
GM did a bold thing by creating the Chevy Volt. People will flock to get their product of genius.
GM deserves to get paid well for it. $33,500 is a bargain for all the hardship that has gone into the Volt. Even $41,000 is a great price for such advanced technology.
I want to thank all the great people at GM who made the Volt happen. You are the most competent people on the planet.
+6
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:33 am)Don’t forget to add to the effective cost of your Leaf the cost to own a second gas-powered vehicle for all those trips over 100 miles, as well as the additional maintenance and insurance costs of having to have a second vehicle.
join thE REVolution
-11
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:37 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:38 am)There’s no reason to rush on the new tech, especially when you’re not making much money. lol. I’m talking about myself.
+6
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:38 am)You guys are cracking me up. Neither of you have anything to apologize for. You both were just reacting to the MSRP. No big deal. Keep on truckin guys!
FWIW, as I said yesterday, I think the nasaman has to get some sort of prize for retracting a post that got more +1s than just about any other post in the history of gm-volt.com. Very funny. On a serious note, it’s a great sign when someone changes their mind as they get more information. Kudos to nasaman.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:39 am)You’re right, Michigan Guy.
Once again, some of my comments should have been worded better yesterday.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:40 am)Hey ClarksonCote, just to let you know – according to the CNN article Toprak is an analyst with TrueCar.com and not from GM.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:41 am)I guess it might have come off that way. I was tired of reading post after post of negative comments against the fine people of GM. I am not the type to say, “I was right you are wrong” without backing it up with the reason. There are a number of people here that get it, but a majority don’t. I will stand by my post as is even after reviewing it. It was an embarassment if GM actually read most of the comments and took them to heart.
+6
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:41 am)Only if its someone elses job thats lost is it not a big deal,So anyway how is this economic model we have now working out for us ,export millions of jobs every year,borrow money from the chinese to pay 2 years of unemployment checks,not so hot i would say.
It is about jobs, and we can use less oil by buying a volt and keep those jobs here. I am all about using NO oil at all .I personally have reduced my OIL use by 80% since 2002.And i did not do it by sending some americans job to japan by buying a 100% imported car. How many can say that? Just my opinion and i respect others opinions if i agree or not.
-4
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:42 am)Why don’t you go work for below minimum wage so we could all afford the Volt. While you’re at it reduce everyone else’s pay on the manufacturing and engineering floor. This will help reduce the Volts cost. Let us all know how it works out so we can flock to the dealers to get one of the 7500 volts. The other 2500 is for the gooberment purchases.
“Range Anxiety” = Dependence on foreign oil = “EoDEV” (Extended oil Dependence Electric Vehicle) = Volt
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:42 am)With four young kids I can’t buy a 4-seat Volt but I did completely buy into GM’s original vision of the Volt as an EV for the masses. Yesterday GM betrayed that vision. The Volt is a superb technical achievement and bringing such an innovative car to market on schedule is an impressive feat. But this is not a car for the masses and, unfortunately, $41k for a compact car with cloth seats only reinforces the anti-EV message that battery cars are expensive, toys for well-heeled eccentrics who inhabit the fringes of mainstream society.
If I had two kids I’d probably still buy (um, lease) a Volt. I am, after all, a well-heeled eccentric on the fringe. But attempts to evangelize the car to friends and neighbors would flop as all they would see is “little car, $41k”. Don’t get me wrong, even at 37k I’d get a lot of raised eyebrows. But 30s are much different than 40s in peoples’ minds and 29,xxx after-tax slips under that critical 30k barrier and puts you squarely in the mainstream (average US new car price is 28K+).
I don’t know why GM priced the Volt over 40k. It was clearly a calculated decision. Car companies twist themselves into knots to get base MSRP below a round number barrier (e.g. original US Prius MSRP was $19,995 excluding destination charge). The Volt is 40,280 excluding destination, a 285 reduction to get to 39,995 would be a rounding error for GM on such a low volume niche car. They must believe 41k will burnish their halo. Look at all the ads Lexus runs for their new $375k LFA supercar. They’re not trying to sell the LFA, they’re positioning their brand.
Maybe $41k will help GM re-position Chevy as a technology leader or something. I don’t really understand all that crap. All I know is $41k is bad for the EV movement. And that made yesterday a sad day for me.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:46 am)Don’t people here still “get it” ? Its been a long time ….
A lot of Americans – some 60 Million – already have multiple cars. They don’t need one more car tha goes 100s of miles on gas. I plan to replace ONLY ONE of our TWO gas cars with a BEV. The other one will be used for longer trips.
“If it doesn’t suit me, it shouldn’t suit anyone” will not help in our common goal – reduce oil consumption.
Get it ?
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:48 am)I’m still reeling a bit from the price announcement. As soon as I heard that $41,000 price my heart sank. Not to sound overly dramatic, but I have a bad feeling that GM might have screwed themselves on this one. On NPR today there was a small bit about the plug-in convention in San Jose. The CEO of Nissan was bragging that in California alone there has been 6,000 orders for the Leaf. The media seems to be directly comparing the Leaf to the Volt and story after story mentions the large delta in price. This isn’t a fair comparison since the cars are totally different with the Leaf having less than 1/3rd the range of the Volt overall. But the fact that these comparisons are being made shows me that the general public will see this and in short order write the Volt off as an interesting but overpriced car.
Here’s my own personal assessment of the price: GM is intentionally limiting the number of Volts in the first year. In the meantime more efforts are likely being pursued to lower the cost of production- namely in regards to the battery. Possibly within the next year’s release the price will come down to a more appropriate level.
I assume that GM is losing money on the Volt even at the retail price of $41,000. But even so, what if they decided to drop the price an additional $5,000-$6,000? Assume that all 10,000 Volts sell in the first year at a $10,000 loss? That would be an astounding 100 million dollar loss. But how much does GM spend on marketing? Plant re-tooling? Research? Way more then that. Ford on the other hand just announced a 2.3 Billion dollar profit. If GM can come even close to meeting that level of success then $100 mil is a drop in the bucket. Sure- its bad business but in my opinion it would be better in the long run because they would be delivering a revolutionary car for the masses ( even though 30-35k is still a lot of money in my book)
The bottom line is that public perception is everything. Look up the Chevy Volt on Google today. Story after story ridicules the price they mentioned. The majority of the people on this blog full of early adopters and consumers more inclined to buy things like iPhones and Priuses also reject that price. Thus I think its safe to say that the mentioning of the $41,000 price was a bad move on GM’s part and the damage this could cause for the Volt’s image could very easily cost the company way more than losing 100 million bucks.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:49 am)The Volt will only save you 40 miles per day in Gas, 2 gallons in a gas hog or 1 gallon in a Corolla or Prius. If you depleated it every day, you would benefit $3-$5/day or $1000-$1800/year. You will save $39,000 over the next 39 years of Volt use, however…
-2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:49 am)Not sure if your post is accurate , since we get very little if any oil from saudi arabia anymore i dont think the war in IRAQ and Afg is about oil, its more about keeping those military hardware companies humming along with huge profits,you know the ones the Bush family and other politicians are heavily invested in. The same ones who want to send americans to die in Iraq and then put their family members out of work by buying bullets from china. Just my opinion
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:50 am)Ugh, that is less than I was expecting, by quite a margin – I was guessing at least 2 cars a month, not 2-3 months per car. That is lame – this is surprising given the small rollout area.
This should give us a heads up of what its going to be like in 2012 (probably worse) when they spread that small production number to the dealerships across the country.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:52 am)I am not one of those 60 million. But you’re right, the LEAF works for some, the Volt for others, etc. People should not blatantly suggest that one option is 100% better than the other. It depends on each individual’s (or family’s) situation.
I think the majority of people would find the Volt has less compromises overall. That doesn’t mean the LEAF won’t be better for others always requiring a 5th seat, or having a second vehicle that runs on gas (and not having both vehicles frequently require longer than 100 mile round trips)
join thE REVolution
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:55 am)+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:01 am)Amen brother right on, i think the price reflects the value , if you want a cheap ugly import then buy a leaf, if you want a quality American made car you can be proud of Buy the volt.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:04 am)“I spoke with wifey last night. She told me I was more interested in Gen II. I didn’t know that. Thank goodness I have her to tell me how to think.
”
———————-
Rashiid,
That is something all of us married men can understand perfectly.
I am also disappointed in the price and the way GM is managing the lease arrangements to get more people leasing than owning. I guess for the vast majority of us the first year’s production of Volts are out of our reach anyway. It will be early 2012 or even later before a Volt comes to my neck of the woods. By then there will be other alternatives to choose from.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:04 am)Did you notice that I said Because I don’t need a second car
My life style simply doesn’t allow for it.
I apologize if I am living my life incorrectly in your eyes.
I saw the original question as a personal one, so I answered it from my point of view.
+6
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:07 am)Personally, I “get it” about the two-car family’s. So help me “get” why BEV advocates seem so incensed about the fact that the Volt *can* use some gas, and conclude that the Leaf is the obvious choice for anyone who is truly concerned about oil (when 60 million could be replacing ONE of their cars, and burning gas all the time in the other one).
To be clear, I’m pro all EV’s. I’m just not “getting” the trash talk about the Volt. Want to help me out?
Be well and patient,
Tagamet
+6
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:09 am)There’s no need for either one of you to apologize. Neither of you said anything inappropriate as far as I could tell. You were understandably disappointed. The important thing, IMHO, is that you’re still here.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:10 am)So here are my questions for today:
nasaman: From what state are you ordering your Volt?
Lyle: Will you buy, lease, or is GM going to provide you with a Volt for free for your efforts?
GM: When will you release the plans for when other states will be able to have their Chevy dealerships authorized for the Volt?
GM: When will you release the CS mileage?
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:11 am)With a price of $41,000 ($33,500 after the Gov’t kicks in my money) the Volt is still to expensive for my blood. When the car came out a lot people (GM included ) were saying the price would be $40,000 … I was included in that price guess and never wavered. Then GM hinted the price MAY be lower and a lot of people on this blog took that as fact. $35k, $30k, $25K and even $20k prices were given as logical guesses on price. People started to read and believe those “guesses” as fact. Then pricing came out and for the love of all things holy a back lash like I have never seen.
Fact is a car that is priced at $33,500 is NOT for the main stream customer which most of us on here are. Don’t get me wrong. I love the Volt and wish GM great success with it but my max I will spend on a new car is $25k so I guess I will look at the Cruze, it’s 40 MPG and save some coin.
So good luck GM and I can’t wait to see some Volts on Ohio roads …. I just wish one was in my driveway.
PS-I know the Lease is a great option for some but I put to many miles on a car for a lease ….. sorry GM.
+16
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:11 am)Now wait for the other shoe to drop.
It’ll be another waiting game here to finally hear GM’s take on a residual value after Volt’s 3 yr. lease has expired. Without knowing this – there is no “good deal” here on $2500 up front, then a $350 per month electric rental car.
Those here, some who’ve cited patriotic duty or environmental responsibility as a reason to sacrifice or to be compliant with their upper-echelon incomes to make the world a better place and pop for Volt’s $41,000-before dealer gouge-price: Listen, you’re saying that we should not complain that GM baited us with “well below $30K” Volt pricing teases-and that we should know that being environmentally sound is costly, very costly. To this I say, “BULL DROPPINGS!”. Why? Because to date silicon solar panels and geo thermal systems and such cost plenty. Only those who are rich, or very well off can brag that their homes are sustainable…etc…. This will change eventually, but it’s beena big waiting game for most of us. Volt is just another example of this. Being “green” costs big green, and Volt is for people with deep pockets.
Further, I’m surprised at all the apologies flowing today regarding getting pissed off. Hey, GET PISSED OFF OK? There is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing your disappointment with/to GM. Passion is a good thing. So is honesty. Many of you hopefully waited for an attrractive purchase number of Volt to be icing on this cake of engineering and development testing videos, apparent honesty and openness coming from American taxpayer owned General Motors Corp.. Now that many of you are beginning to see the double-talk and backpeddling, your eyes are being opened – some for the very first time. This site has it’s “Polly Annas” like Tagamet or Jackson, who’ve both stated over the months that they are unable to purchase a Volt, even if it were priced more affordably to the common man. These fellas, bless their hearts, post over a dozen posts per day most likely because they’re at home with probably not much better to do than sit on their computer and pontificate – and that’s great for them, don’t get me wrong – if that’s what turns them on. But for the rest of us, those who’ve stated a sincere desire to trade in our Prius or add another car to the household, and were excited about the prospect of it being OPEC and smog polluting free – WELL, WE’RE JUST PISSED OFF, OK?
To me, there’s almost nothing worse than when a person states their true feelings, then retracts or tries to minimize them. To me, offending Lyle Dennis is neither here nor there. Lyle is an EV fan like me and likely you. I’m sure Lyle will not “black list” you if you express disappointment in GM or their practices. While many here regard this site as kind of a GM cheerleading site, or a GM advocacy group, I sincerely think objectivity should be more commonly seen here.
Today is just the first day that dealer price gouging, more wondering about GM’s pie-in-the-sky Volt leasing program (“stay tuned”), and more waiting regarding Volt’s CS mileage results begins.
To those who are angry about the unreasonably high price for a 4 seater vehicle, and how you will now have to wait another 4 years to ……possibly…..possibly exprience an extended-range-generator type vehicle from an American manufacturer….well, by all means, don’t feel you have to cut GM some slack…..Sheesh!
There is now a distinct possibility our first EREV purchase may come from a foreign car company. If indeed the EREV process pans out to be what most of us here have agreed is the superior platform to move forward to electrification, GM cannot assume the automotive manufacturing world will just sit by for eight years and watch GM plod along, bumbling with gouging dealers and unreasonably high MSRPs ( how easy now is it for GM to halt Volt production at 10-30,000 because it did not sell well? Think SSR – 26,000 and done ). So far the Volt is a specialty item for GM.
So you have every right to be angry. And every right to expect this technology to be available to you from someone at a decent price.
RECHARGE!
James
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:11 am)I’m glad they set the bar high. Very few cars actually sell at the MSRP, so the jury is still out on if GM will be forced to sell these below MSRP (doubt it). I’m just glad GM is pocketing all of the mark up into the MSRP so that they get as much out of it as possible. This will mean the gen 2 will be even cheaper as the engineering costs will be water under the bridge by then.
It never made sense to lease to me. If they couldn’t make money leasing it vs selling it, they wouldn’t have a leasing option available.
I’m just excited to see them driving around, see the public’s reaction, watch them come down in price and get better with better batteries over the years, etc. Some day I’ll have one myself. With a BEV like the Leaf, and a plug in 2 mode SUV.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:12 am)Translation, GM is really charging a lower price for the lease than they are for a direct sale. Probably because they can limit leases to the original markets, so that the majority of Volt owners will go to trained dealers for servicing. Personally, I don’t have a problem with that.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:15 am)I think too many people have been put off by the MSRP and that far too many people have concluded that the Volt is priced for “the elite.” This isn’t true, and, just to provide perspective, I can demonstrate this with what a great deal the lease is by comparing it to a Volt at a much lower MSRP. In the example, rather than say the Volt has an MSRP of $41K, let’s assume GM announced a price under $30K, which many here think would be magical. Let’s say the announced MSRP is $29,500.
OK, so what would the lease payments be this car with the $7500 rebate. Take the $7500 off the top. That leaves $22,000. Now use the same cap reduction GM is asking for on the announced lease. That takes it to $20,000. The residual on a car is usually in the 50% range so let’s use $10,000 as the residual price. Finally, let’s assume a 5% interest rate, which would be a good current rate.
The depreciation charge is just the difference in just the Capitalized Cost – Residual, or $10,000 ($20K – $10K) divided over 36 payments, which gives you $277.78. The interest charge depends on the money factor, which you get by dividing 5% by 24 — .00208. Multiply the money factor by the Capitalized Cost + Residual, which is $30,000 (may seem wrong to add these but the money factor assumes everything gets paid off so it cuts everything in half and the addition adjusts for this), which gives you $62.50. Adding the depreciation and finance charges together gives you $340.28. Very close to the $350/month.
Basically the payment on the lease offered by GM for the Volt is about what you’d expect to pay for a Volt offered at the magical price of $29,500.
Yes there will be a high residual but that is not a problem since if it’s higher than market you cut a deal with leasing entity and if it’s lower you can buy another one for less. Please don’t go down the “when you lease you end up with nothing at the end of the lease” road. That’s true in one sense but the fact of the matter is that after three years on a conventional loan for purchase the buyer has nothing as well — they’re probably upside down. A lease is very good at separating out the actual cost of using the car. Nothing more and nothing less.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:17 am)The US does not import as much oil from the Middle East as it used to. Today, the largest single chunk from any one country / region comes from Canada. However, enough is still brought in from the Middle East such that the US could not survive economically without it. So, to a certain extent, it’s still about oil.
However, as Tag said, it’s more complicated. It is about oil, politics, military and corperate profits, war, the environment and air quality, and a whole host of other things. The Volt is about reducing dependance on oil, which affects, and is affected by, a large number of variables.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:21 am)It’s a catch-22. To me, buying a Nissan LEAF is kind of like usnig the US tax credit to buy windmills from China. Do we need them? Yes. Is it cheaper to buy them from China? Absolutely. But we’d still be much better off as a country if we made them ourselves…
Look at high speed rail. It would have been easier for China and happened faster if they’d simply bought their rail system from France or Japan. But they did the hard work (And forced the technology transfer) to make it themselves. And their economy and standard of living is much better because of it. And now they’re bidding on projects in the US, where we will never build our own. Because it costs too much, and because we don’t force technology transfer. At least not since WWII.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:24 am)You’re wrong here. Completely wrong. And I say this passionately! (Only kidding).
Kidding aside, it doesn’t matter what the residual is. If it’s higher than market, which is what you are saying, then turn the car in, walk, and buy a replacement. What’s the problem? If it’s lower than market then you can buy it and pat yourself on the back for making a good deal. You come out either ahead or at least even.
With respect to how to view a lease, you can look at every lease as having a long term rental. On the other hand, given that in a conventional loan you’re invariably upside down at the end of three years since those loans rest on the fantasy of straight line depreciation, is there really a big difference?
Finally note that nasaman changed his mind after reviewing the facts. I’m not getting what’s wrong with that. It’s the opposite that’s objectionable.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:24 am)If you want to buy American, put your money down on a Ford Focus EV which is coming out soon after the Volt and LEAF.
It will be nicely styled, has a liquid cooled battery and is several thousand dollars less expensive than the LEAF.
-2
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:25 am)A drop in the bucket. Toyota owners still keep coming back. Check out the DesRosiers longevity reports, sometime. You’ll see why people switched. Right now, there’s no reason to switch back.
Further, recalls stem from a mistake. Subventing leases is a bad business practice. There’s a world of difference. It’s one of the tricks GM used to play and… surprise… it’s back.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:28 am)Many call it real mpg. It’s really —Average Accumulated Instantaneous Trip MPG with a full customer discharge and no added electricity from external charging. And to keep it accurate; add, assumes typical driving conditions which could be affected by many variables including weather and temperature, driving style, vehicle maintenance and – though assumed as not occurring – intermittent or opportunity charging within trips and YMMV. For completeness; add, this calculation assumes no cost or energy equivalence for electricity generated off-board the vehicle, though it does assume that any new trip will be calculated after full customer discharge. Long term mileage will actually vary considerably from the results shown, as this calculation is for single trips only and each new trip must be cumulatively summed and averaged to give any form of “lifetime” MPG.
Most mileage of course will be from shorter duration travel which will refer to the graph submitted by kdawg and will require the following limitations…First label the x axis to show what it really is.
Average Accumulated Instantaneous Trip MPG with a full charge and no added electricity from external charging. And to keep it accurate; add, assumes typical driving conditions which could be affected by many variables including weather and temperature, driving style, vehicle maintenance and – though assumed in this graph as not occurring – intermittent or opportunity charging within trips so YMMV. For completeness; add, this analog* graph assumes no cost or energy equivalence for electricity generated off-board the vehicle, though it does assume that each new trip will include a full charge. Long term mileage will actually vary considerably from the results shown, as this graph is for single trips only and each new trip must be cumulatively summed and averaged to give any form of “lifetime” MPG.
*As an analog graph you may take an average of your instantaneous MPG per trip at any point but it will only apply to that individual trip, at any point and at trip completion, and long term mileage must be summed over all trips and averaged for an accurate reading of overall MPG.
I don’t know why every one is complaining about GM and the EPA, this stuff is simple – just do it.
Question- can you imagine that stuff on a MPG label? Yet, if it’s not covered people will cry foul and somebodys gonna get sued – right?
The two depictions above are similar but due not confuse or cross reference them within your calculations for what has in the past been referred to as city mileage or highway mileage or your results will not reflect “REAL MPG.”
-2
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:29 am)The VCR did something completely unique. The Volt does the same thing as any other car but it does it with a different fuel source. It can’t command the same kind of premium because there are alternatives.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:35 am)“Starting with Hausman’s 1979 paper , empirical economists have been interested in the fact that most consumers prefer to purchase durable products whose costs are “backloaded.” In English, we tend to prefer the air conditioner whose upfront price is cheap but that uses a lot of electricity in each subsequent year while we run away from products that are expensive today but are very inexpensive to operate (because they require little electricity) on an annual basis.”
from http://www.csmonitor.com/Money/Green-Economics/2010/0728/How-innovative-financing-will-increase-demand-for-electric-cars on how GM’s lease addresses the above issue,
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:37 am)Don, you are assuming the Volt leasing program will be the same as a conventional leasing program on a conventional gasoline-engined car.
Please stop assuming —- thus putting a better light on Volt pricing. Fact: Volt lease program details have not been revealed. You ….DO NOT…know yet if Volt’s lease will be any different than EV-1s.
All these silver-lining folks who talk about the “great lease” are only going off promises made by GM sales directors. As one poster said yesterday, Tony Posawatz and Disalle sound more like politicians lately than engineers and marketing people. Notice on yesterdays webchat how they took only questions they could answer that made Volt look appealing. Notice the tough questions on the lease or other aspects just were discarded.
Words regarding the lease such as “residual value” were alluded to – no numbers were revealed. Why? This was supposed to be the big reveal day of Volt pricing. You’re saying nothing suspicious about foregoing actual lease details?
RECHARGE!
James
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:38 am)For those of us that are waiting to get an EV down the road for one reason or more, I believe the wait will be worth it. There is already evidence of better battery tech. and plenty of room for improvement in ER engine choices. I congratulate all the early adopters and hope their paths are smooth. IMO Unless GM can equal or exceed the Leaf with a GM BEV, GM should wait for battery improvement before launching their own BEV. In 2 or 3 years We hope to buy a BEV with 150+ mile range at a reasonable price. In the meantime, let’s be kind to one another and to our planet.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:40 am)Still do not understand why the VOLT PRICE is so HIGH.
GM went through bankruptcy… Discharged HUGH DEBT from the past and has small debt obligations going forward.
FORD did NOT go bankrupt … still has sizable debt and is working to shrink future obligations and is making a profit.
Ford has REMOVED the PREMIUM from their hybrid cars.
SOOOO how is it, with costs “under control” for GM, they are now pricing what may be their most popular car in years out of the main part of market they should/could own???????
Plus GM is still indicating a limited production of 10k cars even if there is a large number that will lease? ( and it appears they are not communicating with their dealers very well)
Something appears radically out of sync. What am I missing?
Anyone have “useful” comments about this?
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:42 am)Maybe you’re not willing to pay that premium. But I am.
-2
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:42 am)If so, that’s an advantage of the captive finance company. Do you have more than speculation on this?
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:45 am)Nissan Leaf: $349 a month for three years with an initial $1,999 customer payment.
Sound familiar?
So if you can lease a Volt for essentially the same price as leasing a Leaf, and both have the same warranty, does the $41k matter?
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:45 am)DonC, your 50% residual should be based on the 29,500 price of the car.
Actually, even that’s not quite accurate. A 3 year old Volt should be worth more than $14,750. Maybe 18-20k? That’d put a 3 year lease per your numbers at around $100/month. Quite a difference from $350.
Furthermore, if a 3 year old Volt is actually worth 18-20k in the marketplace then the current $350/month lease GM is a big money-loser for GM. They can show a profit on each “sale” to the captive leasing company this year (nice for the IPO) but each lease will lock them into a $5000-ish loss that will show up three years down the road.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:49 am)And some will along with you. I didn’t say no one would pay a premium. But my point remains… if you wanted to record a program and play it back later, there weren’t any other choices, so you bought a VCR and paid the price. If you want to get from point A to point B on your own schedule, there are plenty of choices besides the Volt, any car will do. Only people who are focussed solely on the fuel source will be interested and many of them will be put off by the price. It’s still possible to make a statement about oil use – or to really do something significant about oil use – without spending the $41K to buy a Volt. By the time the Volt hits 30K/year, there will be more alternatives.
In fact, there is another difference with the VCR… scale. That $1K VCR would be $2-3K in adjusted dollars, far less than the Volt’s $41K. Scale makes a difference.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:50 am)The more leased Volts there are now means that, in three or four years, there will be more used Volts available for sale, which can only help increase the number of people jumping over to electric powered cars. It’s a win-win-win scenario.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:53 am)After getting over yesterday’s shock, I too am now in agreement with the high price. (This is purely academic as I cannot afford a new car anyway.) I have said all along that GM is not in a position to loose money, just didn’t expect it to be this high. Kudos to GM for being fiscally responsible. As for the lease, as I pointed out yesterday, after deducting the tax rebate and down payment, it is just a little better than what you would expect. Now how do you change the focus from comparing the Volt to econo cars to upscale cars in this price range like BMWs? With the Volt’s extensive list of standard features and high quality fit an finish, this should be valid.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:59 am)Thanks for this information!!!
Just looked up what a subvented lease is. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subventedlease.asp
According to the explanation GM may be setting the end of lease value (residual value) artificially ?? high to get the monthly payment lower. “Auto manufacturers often will offer a subvented lease on vehicle models that are not selling well.” ( from the definition)
So at the end of 3 years if the end of lease value is much lower does the person with the lease win if they want to buy the car??
-1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:00 am)Step back from the Volt and look at the big picture. What are your policy goals?
Now, what incentives have been given to GM to produce an expensive car in limited quantieies? You’ll have to include a portion of the general bailout (but not the whole thing, of course). There are tax incentives from both the Federal government and from Michigan and the local townships.
Now, what is the real impact on your policy goals of the existence of this vehicle?
Was this a good use of all that money?
If not, what else might we have done to further your policy goals?
For all those subsidies, credits and bailouts, we’re getting an unaffordable car for just 10K people this year. The impact on oil consumption is negligible. I think we could have gotten a lot more for our money.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:02 am)If I went out to buy a 20K car at 4 or 5 years, my monthly payment would be about $400 a month. What they have done with the lease is allow you to get in the car for the same monthly cost as buying a $20K car. That is a great deal! If they didn’t offer a lease, and I had to buy it at $40K for 5 years, it would cost $800 a month which would be too expensive to afford. The lease also eliminates the risk of new technology and lets you upgrade to new technology in 3 years. That is a plus in my book. The average monthly payment in the US right now for all car loans is $450 a month, which means the GM lease option makes it easier to get into the Volt than the average car.
+6
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:04 am)A hard-copy printout of all of the anger and disappoinment over yesterday’s price announcement, combined with Lyle’s recent poll about whether you will buy now or not, should be dropped right into the lap of the decision-makers at GM.
It should be obvious that a Voltec-Powered Cruze (lower priced) and VOLT MPV-5 (family fun size) should be green-lighted and put on the fast track of development.
GM should be the leader in electric cars… NOT playing catch-up like they have done in the past.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:04 am)$41k – $7500 tax rebate – $2500 down payment – 36 * 300/mth = $20,200 just past your upper limit, this does NOT translate to a $5k loss. (assume $50/mth interest and charges)
-3
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:05 am)Forgive me for this but if a company sells a product, shouldn’t be sold at the same price to one person as the next? Changing the selling price for a Lease seems quite shady. It seems discriminitory against the cash buyer or the person who wants to finance/buy it.
This sounds like the same thing I see done at these shady deceptive auctions/resellers but in reverse where cash price is less but credit card is more. And it’s not becuase CC charges, it’s because the seller can not claim the sale for “tax reasons”.
I could be wrong but it sounds like the lease buyer will get a different selling price.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:05 am)No. I don’t. But why else would they give such an attractive lease price, and then limit leases to people who live in the roll out areas? GM wants this launch to go smoothly. Having trained techs do the servicing and repairs on as many of the cars as possible will help. A lot.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:06 am)You’re right on the residual amount. But as for whether the lease is close ended, that has been on every news report and on the video on the GM site. So this isn’t really an assumption. What makes you think it is?
Moreover, your idea that this is a re-run of the EV1 situation makes no sense. Once GM admits the possibility of a sale — not everyone will take the lease — then it becomes impossible for GM to get all the cars back. And if it can’t get all the cars back then it’s irrelevant if they get any back because, for legal purposes, it matters not if there are ten or ten thousand models on the road. It’s all or nothing.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:06 am)How can you possibly make these claims? No one will know what the future is until after it happens. I’m happy that GM will “make a margin” on each Volt vehicle starting from the very first unit sold and that the cost to produce the Volt will go down in the future. Welcome to the new GM.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:07 am)But if no one pays the premium, there won’t be a 30k version. It’s true that GM can’t expect to see as many Volt’s as there were $1k VCRs. But the more they sell, the more it will bring prices down. Just like any other new technology.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:11 am)I could not have said it better, Buying foreign is short sighted economic thinking, buy the leaf and lose jobs but save gas, buy the volt and create jobs and save gas at the same time. Its not charity to buy american its our only economic hope for the future. By buying american products we are assuring our long term economic survival instead of japans future.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:14 am)Yes. The lease buyer is getting a different selling price. They’re charging a premium to people who want to own the car outright. I don’t have a problem with that. It’s not “discrimination” when people have a choice as to how they want to pay for something.
GM has a strong interest in the Volts having as few bugs as possible. In order to do that, it helps to ensure that only technicians specifically trained about the Volt do the servicing. So they’re charging a premium to people who want to buy it outright. Personally, I suspect that if it wasn’t for the EV1 fiasco, they wouldn’t offer it for sale period.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:16 am)Really? The payments on a 48 month purchase before interest charges would be over $400. (Just divide 20,000 by 48). Basically since a three year on a lease on a $20K car would be about $350/month there is no way you can get buy it for the same amount since in the lease situation you are only “buying” half the car, so to speak.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:17 am)Plus you’ll get to trade up your driving experience from a Honda Civic to a Chevy Volt. What’s not to like?
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:20 am)My policy goals include production of a high technology car in this country. And maintaining an industrial base. Something the US is doing a really bad job with. GM is not going to limit production forever. And even if they did…have you ever of innovation spillovers?
-2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:23 am)I agree with 1/2 of your post and disagree with the rest.
GM knew there would be a back lash for the $41k price but made the right fiscal decision anyway.
Adding all the Voltec technology to a Cruze will mean a Cruse EV at almost Volt price. Just because the Cruse is much cheaper does not mean all the electric motors, controllers, and batteries suddenly become much cheaper.
I agree with the statement about catch-up. The Volt development has taken much longer than I expected, and GM’s lead has been lost. Now the slow roll-out will exasperate this, so yes in 2012 there will be lots of competition and GM will just be one in the pack.
I think the VOLT MPV-5 has been green-lighted, just have to wait for the official announcement.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:24 am)I am not the leasing expert, but the $7500 Federal Rebate is going into that lease, and from yesterday’s accounts along with a very high residual value. That’s why the payment is so small. I also heard grumbling from the finance manager that in order to hit that payment, the vehicle is actually sold slightly less than MSRP and the dealership has to give up 60% of holdback to GMAC. In other words, I doubt many dealers will participate in that program if they are already racking up orders (at over MSRP) like there is no tomorrow.
I hope I am wrong, because my wife’s lease on her Nissan Altima runs out next May. I’m hoping to get her into a VOLT if there are any available at that time.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:24 am)Usually I think you’re right on but here I think you’re off base. What you’re missing is that the Leaf will not be built in Japan or China or anywhere else. It will be built in the US in Smyrna Tennessee. Now it will be built by a French – Japanese partnership but the critical part is that all production, including the battery packs, will be built here by US workers using parts supplied by US based suppliers.
If you listen to Carlos Ghosn that’s the only way it can happen since it’s too expensive to ship this stuff all over the world. While design and engineering and research needs to be global, manufacturing has to be local in order to drive down costs. Which is why car companies and suppliers will have to be global if they want to survive.
Completely different situation than what you’re suggesting.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:26 am)Are all car salespeople this clueless? Or just the ones at Chevy dealers we keep hearing about on this web site? Except CorvetteGuy- HE knows what’s going on! GM needs to really step it up with their dealer sales force training for the Volt. This is as critical as educating potential Volt buyers through the mass media. If GM does a pretty good job giving consumers the tools to educate themselves about the Volt before they walk in the dealer’s door to buy one and then they are met with ignorance, that customer will take their business elsewhere.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:29 am)Someone here said it well and it bears repeating, “oil is fungible.” The US can procure it’s oil from Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, The Gulf of Mexico, Alberta, The Bay of Campeche, or via Hugo or Ahmadinejad. Regardless, the result is, the more oil we use the more oil the rest of the world must buy from Iran, Venezuela, Russia, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia and wherever else social, environmental, political and terrorist nightmares are conceived and funded.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:30 am)+5
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:32 am)The plant in Tennessee doesn’t open until 2012. In the meantime, they’re imported from Japan. Which means that if they don’t work out, or sales are less than expected….even failed launches have innovation spillovers. And Japan has a lead time when it comes to tech.
Besides, I happen to care where the design and engineering and research are done. And with GM a much higher percentage is done in the US.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:33 am)I say again, the 3 year lease for the Leaf and the Volt are essentially the same $350/month, similar deposit. So the $41k is almost irrelevant.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:34 am)Good article Lyle,
Even though the bloggers on this site clearly have either a pro- or anti-Volt bias, you did a really good job today of fairly laying out the price of the Volt and LEAF as well as the advantages and disadvantages that each car holds… well done.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:34 am)So what happened to all of the talk about “cost reductions through higher volumes”? From all of yesterday’s rants, if a CRUZE jumps up from $17,000 to $25,000 for the Voltec model, that would be a huge seller! It would be big at $30,000 before fedral rebates, right?
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:36 am)How many times do I have to repeat this? Do the math before making illogical statements.
$41k – $7500 tax rebate – $2500 down payment – 36 * 300/mth = $20,200 residual value, quite reasonable. (assume $50/mth interest and charges)
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:36 am)Bottom line, financially speaking a lease is NEVER a good idea for a private consumer. The only possible exception is if you can write off the lease for your business, but even then it doesn’t always make sense. Leasing is one of the worst financial decisions you can make.
Some purchases like the Volt, defy what makes financial sense of course. People will buy what they want for whatever reason. Don’t kid yourself into thinking leasing a Volt is any kind of money saving proposition though.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:39 am)The amount of people who are simply willing to throw money away by leasing a car for 3 years is truly the astonishing thing to me. Probably explains all the anger over a couple thousand dollars. “WHAT!! The credit card company is raising my interest from 15 to 20 percent!!”
Drive a crap car for the next 3 years, save your 15,000 and then put that down on a cheaper Volt in 2014.
My guess is the Volt will be available for under 38k and the tax credit will be renewed if not upped. So 38k – 7500 – 15k in saved not leased away money.
15,500 dollars. Be patient, don’t throw away your money and you’ll have a brand new Volt that you can own in 3 years. It’ll be a more refined car by then and you can drive it for 10 years not just 3. Don’t lease unless money is no object to you.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:39 am)GM is not an American company. It’s a global company based in Detroit. GM is currently selling more cars in China than here in the U.S. The converse is true for Nissan. It will build it’s car and batteries in the U.S. It’s too simplistic to say “buy American” when it comes to automobiles.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:39 am)DON C: Really? The payments on a 48 month purchase before interest charges would be over $400. (Just divide 20,000 by 48). Basically since a three year on a lease on a $20K car would be about $350/month there is no way you can get buy it for the same amount since in the lease situation you are only “buying” half the car, so to speak.
Don – you are missing the point. GM is letting you get in this car for $350/month which is less than if you had to buy a $20K car. Therefore, the $40K price tag is a moot point if you are really interested in driving this car to help us get off middle east oil. For the last year we have been talking the car costing around $40K which would have been $800/month (which I can’t afford). I am real excited about the $350/month option!
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:40 am)Haven’t you figured out why the jobs are leaving? Obviously not. Here’s a hint. Less pay for the same job. The jobs go overseas because labor is cheaper. I don’t know how else to get that through your skull. If you want to keep jobs here, compete with the global rate of pay. If not then pay up for a $41K + “dealer markup” Volt.
I do however agree the lease is attractive. Nissan offered a good lease, GM followed. Both however end with you not owning the car and the residual balance is a big a mystery as the CS MPG for the volt.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:43 am)Crazy few days. I don’t post often but hope this info helps my fellow gm-vot readers.
The 41K price shocked me a bit….I think it had more to do with expectation setting that could have been managed by gm a bit better. What I mean are recent talks about the price being lower than 40 and something along the lines of it will be more than a few hundred dollars less for us to consider it….if you remember that article. That said, after the shock wore off it is clear that its a decent price because it is limited supply and is first gen cutting edge technology. Most importantly I think GM is trying to price many people into leases.
My math (which is probably off) equates a 350 mo setup to around a 23 or 24k car…..definately a bargain. As my wife will max out the 40 mile charge each day on the car with her work commute, the 19 mpg car we are replacing the volt with will equate to 4500 savings over a 3 year lease….something you have to remember to consider for the Volt.
So that all said, I am thrilled that my Michigan dealer put the order in for my Volt to GM today, first in line. I got it AT MSRP…..NO MARKUPS. In fact, I had a second dealer on hold in case there was gouging….they said no markups also. I will be leasing it for three years. This will be my first lease but it seemed to be a great deal. My thinking is also that after the lease is up I can hand it back and then consider gen II Volt at a much cheaper price and then perhaps buy it for longer term. I think the lease not only reduces price but also reduces first adopter risk and gives you more options in 3 years as you ride the cutting edge technology price curve down.
What I will say is I found the purchase process a bit frustrating. Simply put, its hard making such a big purchase with so little details or even pics or what I am buying….in other words the getmyvolt website just doesn’t cut it. Still more marketing based than transaction support based. Also pricing on options wasnt clear to my dealer. I called the volt hotline and found the following which i hope others can use….option pricing!:
PCQ: Leather seats and steering wheel, heated seats, door inserts = 1395
PCW: Rear camera, and parking assist = 695
Polished Wheels: 595
Premium Paint (if you choose Viridian, White, or Red): 995
What isnt clear is whether the center console instrument cluster can be had in white OR black. I love the black pics on this site but not sure if its even offered. We went for the leather and viridan color and passed on the wheels and rear camera. The paint at 995 hurts a little bit but I just love that color. Finally since my dealer is in Michigan I was told by the hotline rep that I won’t get my volt until March which is when MI starts to get their volts…..aww man. Ah well.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:44 am)You’re applying an organizational model that doesn’t exist. Design and engineering isn’t now and won’t in the future be done in any one place. Nissan has a design center in Michigan and one in California. It has technical centers in Michigan and Arizona. And this of course is just in the US. Likewise, GM cars are now designed in China and Germany.
If you were making this point about Toyota it would have more validity. Toyota is clearly run out of Japan. But it’s not valid for Nissan which is a global company not really based in one geographic location.
Moreover, if you read Paul Krugman’s work which won him the Nobel prize, if the important point is US content, the most important factor is that the assembly/supplier cluster is based in the US. All else flows from this.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:44 am)First of all I don’t think it would be only $8k more.
Second, GM seems to be determined to keep volume low for the first two years so your argument only makes sense if GM changes their policy.
Third, this will happen, but not until at least 2013 when LG Chem’s plant is in full production with next generation lower cost batteries.
I wish it would happen sooner too.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:45 am)Acutally it doesn’t even take a calculator and a map. The leaf’s nav display shows your cars current location and shows concentric rings that represent your range based on the current level of charge. Stay within the rings and you are in range. Complete no-brainer.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:50 am)Bloomberg today emphasizes VOLT’s rollout with pricing coincides GM’s forthcoming IPO. With GM’s high-profile CFO, hardly are any numbers going to be fudged. A statement VOLT is a breakeven or loss would jeopardize IPO price targets. Better to state VOLT is a profit-making sellout. SSooooo… that leaves the only way to make that case is to price high and lease low. (Fortunately VOLT is loaded and a real car – its value downstream will be solid-allowing for slack in leasing plans.)
Nonetheless, GM opens a great big bullseye for its competition. Case in point. GM matches LEAF leasing. LEAF adjusts battery warranty even with VOLT. And a ton of competition EV announcements and pronouncements. Volkswagen, Ford, Enterprise buying 500 LEAFS, China, Mercedes, and good grief whatever.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:52 am)$50/month for interest and charges is ridiculously low. Interest alone at a low 5% runs about 120/month. Sales tax adds 15-20 and various other charges bring the total to about 150/month. Re-doing your calculation:
$41k – $7500 tax rebate – $2500 down payment – 36 * 200/mth = $23,800 residual value
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Jul 28th, 2010 (11:54 am)Laura don’t get into a conversation with DonC unless you like being frustrated. He never agrees with anything anyone says.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (11:54 am)Then why, when they were on the verge of bankruptcy, did they turn to the US government to bail them out?
The globalization/shareholder primacy model works really well when times are good. At least as far as the company in question is concerned. But it’s a disaster for society at large, and ultimately, in the long run, for the companies themselves. They wind up eating a lot of their own “seed corn,” by slashing R&D and reducing quality control in pursuit of short term profits. They also wind up creating their own competitors through technology transfer.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:55 am)rent a car for long trips or fly
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:56 am)Ya know, I just want to buy (or lease) a Volt. Its not more complicated than that for me.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:01 pm)Its not a matter of being “smart enough” but rather that for someone like me the Leaf would be impossible to use for my commute simply because I commute 50 miles each way to my job. That means the car would likely run out of power 90% of the way home, which on 880 in Oakland would be bad news. I’ve mentioned this before but I live in the Bay Area and the cost of buying a home anywhere near job centers is a $650,000+ proposition. Renting is the same- its 50% more if you want to live close to work.
The only way I would consider a Leaf in its current form is if:
A: I was rich enough to buy or rent a house near work ( either that or willing to do like most people here do and go into debt to the hilt)
B: We move out of the area to where we can afford to live near work and afford a house as well.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:01 pm)Fortunately for GM every dealer has a lot of clueless salespeople. I met a sales guy at a Toyota dealership who knew nothing about the Prius. Most just wanna sell cars for money, they don’t love the cars.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:04 pm)Obviously, people get a lot of mileage off of setting up a LEAF vs. Volt battle, but in so many cases (hello: two-car households!) it won’t be a battle at all. One pure EV AND one EREV.
LEAF and Volt folks are both pro-plug-in, how about focusing on that — and focusing our efforts on taking on the millions of anti-plug-in folks, who are both anti-LEAF and anti-Volt, trolling the Internet these days?
http://solarchargeddriving.com/editors-blog/on-evs-a-phevs/410-hey-leaf-and-volt-fans-were-on-the-same-team-.html
For an example (there are thousands all over the Internet) of ignorant, anti-plug-in sentiment, check this recent post out — http://247wallst.com/2010/07/28/gms-volt-an-electric-car-no-one-will-buy/
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:06 pm)You are correct. However, many here seem to think LEAF drivers will all suddenly run out of battery charge or forget to charge. There is one poster here that calls everyone dum dum but makes a very valid point. I’ll paraphrase as there is heavy ESL (English second language) in their writing…
“LEAF owners are responsible and disciplined for charging, a Volt owner does not need to be.”
All it takes is discipline. The Volt offers the ability to continue to be dependent on petroleum from the sand lands. The LEAF does not. Hence the Volt will let you burn much more gas than the LEAF. So which product can greatly reduce more foreign dependency for less money?
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:06 pm)Thank you. In reading the CNN article I was of the impression that they were quoting a GM spokesman. I must have been seeing red from the price announcement.
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+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:06 pm)And “globalization” is the inevitable result of technological progress? I completely disagree. In fact, I think the forces against globalization are just getting started. And, hopefully, will move into full reverse before the US followed Britain’s path into irrelevance. Just because something can be done, doesn’t meant it should be done.
If Nissan isn’t based in Japan, then why are they producing them first in Japan? There’s no such thing as a global corporation. A lot of them think that they are. But when things get tough–they know who to turn to for bailout money.
Just because Paul Krugman won a noble prize doesn’t mean he’s always right about everything. So did Milton Friedman.
Besides, the assembly/cluster is in Japan. The US is getting it later. I think that’s a rather important distinction. Obviously, we’re better off if they do produce it in the US. But we’d get far more value when Ford produces a BEV in the US. From the beginning. Lead time matters.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (12:09 pm)Actually, DonC and I agree on quite a bit. I’m just a little bit more protectionist than he is…And a lot less sympathetic to unions…
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Jul 28th, 2010 (12:10 pm)I tentatively agree but more so just hope you’re right. They’ve also said they knew a year ago they could do this or that differently and save lots of money in Gen 2. I think most of us here who follow the Volt closely just had a hard time swallowing a price that was above our expectations. But on the other hand even if they sold these cars for 25 grand pre-rebate they’d probably be on the secondary market for 45,000 in a lot of cases. I’m glad to see the company getting that money instead of a “Car Scalper”.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:10 pm)I understand that this is just Version 1.0, and that new technology is always initially more expensive (e.g., PC’s, plasma TV’s). It’s just that the Volt’s initial 41K price tag is a bit of a morale deflater.
On one CBC news program that I was watching, the commentators were using the Volt’s high MSRP as evidence that GM was only interested in selling about 30,000 cars per year period, forever. Of course, the lease pricing is competative, but many commentators are not going to focus much on leasing.
I realize that the Volt’s price for the first few years may not be all that critical, considering that production volumes will be low anyways and there may likely even be shortages. It just that a more competative price (like $34,000, pre-rebate) would give me the reassurance that GM could build the Gen III Volt (2018/19) for around something in the low $20,000’s. Now it seems to me like it’ll take years to get to a low price that will lead to widespread adoption. We’ll get there eventually though.
The news yesterday was so depressing that I didn’t feel like posting anything. I’m looking forward now, however, to speculating on what the Gen II and Gen III prices will be. In the meantime, I do appreciate that leasing should (and will) be the the way that many adopters will go.
Sincerely, George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!!
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:11 pm)Oh don’t I know it, and looking forward to it too!
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+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:11 pm)This concept raises an interesting point that seems to provide proof that those who think GM is half-heartedly pursuing EVs are way off. GM takes a gamble and prices the lease low because they state that the residual value should be high.
First off, it is a win-win for the leaseholder. If GM was wrong, because either a)nobody wants electric cars or b)lots of competition or c)battery prices have plummeted, the leaseholder can walk away and GM is left holding the bag. If GM was right, no harm done, the leaseholder now pays market value for the rest of the car (if they want to).
Now, from GM’s perspective. Let’s say they honestly believe that there will be high residual value and have acted accordingly. This means they know (believe) that the EV market will be strong 3 years from now and this directly translates into ramping up Volt 2.0+ and moving the Voltec to lots of platforms. If they HONESTLY believe that the Volt retains high residual value all you naysayers should shut up- GM is going to make us all happy (eventually).
What if this was purely a marketing ploy, because they felt that the lease really didn’t support the residual value claims? Why would GM do this? Many possible reasons: a) to steal market share from the Leaf, b) to get people used to the EV concept and get the product out the door and in the public eye (even to accept a loss), c) the vehicle could be salvaged for batteries (granted, this would be unlikely). I know there are a number of other possible speculations that would fit here too, but, for my mind, only a troll comes up with something like d) so they could collect them all up and crush them like the EV1 and tell the world, “we told you so”.
I see this low lease price as encouraging. Somebody has thought this through and used long term planning. There is a big picture goal here that tells me GM is committed to electric automobiles and anticipates building them in very large numbers after it sees what the Volt does and what the market feedback is. The production numbers, the prices- it all makes sense for a product that shows promise, but has no track record.
Since most of us are now bystanders (those first 10,000 are probably already spoken for), let’s look with a positive eye to see what folks have to say. Let’s be the PR folks for the next (shall we say, more affordable) round that GM has to offer. Whatever we do, please, please don’t be talking this down because you were unhappy with round one’s price. We want to get rid of oil and complaining to the masses about current (minor) misgivings will impede our progress.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:13 pm)Has anyone had success finding the web site called getmyvolt.com ??? It seems to re-direct you to the vanilla http://www.chevrolet.com/volt page. And then when there there is nothing new that I can see.
It seems that when this functionality is available it will be significant in that it will take your specific order for official entry, or did I just imagine that from the video?
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:14 pm)Can somebody tell me why my post #144 is in awaiting moderation status?
-3
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:19 pm)That’s too complicated for it to comprehend. Despite the fact that 95% here have more than 1 car, it seems to keep whining “Range Anxiety”. Some even say a 250 mile range EV still won’t work. They simply want to keep consuming gas to keep funding the foreign nations that want us dead.
Their big selling point for the Volt is the ability to keep driving after 40 miles and burn gas and keep funding those evil nations all while the LEAF will keep going past 40 miles up to 100 without funding the evil foreign nations.
Let’s not forget also that after 40 miles your also spewing dirtyness in the air at the mpg rate of “Comparable to a Corolla”. All for the price of $42K + dealer markup.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:19 pm)If you are leasing the average car for $450 a month and paying $150 a month for gas and your lease ends this year… What would you effectively pay to lease the Volt? Perhaps $375 dollars a month = 10 to 20 dolarss a month for variations in state tax rates and gas use vs lease payments + taxes and gas for the average leased car at $650 a month?
Volt, less insurance for 36 months = 16,000 + electricity. Includes $2500 to start lease.
Average car, less insurance for 36 months assuming $150 a month for gas = 25,400 + oil and filter changes. Includes $2000 to start lease.
Seems like a very reasonable lease, if you’re going to lease anyway.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:30 pm)Seems quite complete to me. They did not say you could order your volt directly from this site, but must order from a dealer which they have a list of.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:30 pm)Thanks you very much for the insight. It is much appreciated.
If I am in a line somewhere Leasing now looks plausible.. :+}
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:31 pm)interesting..not too much information though
http://www.gizmag.com/toshiba-fast-tracks-scib-battery-technology/15667/
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:31 pm)Ha ha. I thought you were saying the opposite — that the lease was a terrible deal in that you could buy a $20K car for the same amount. Agree with you completely. Good luck Volt hunting!
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:33 pm)Read CorvetteGuy’s comments from yesterday.
Map and calculator not necessary; GPS and algorithms for electron use and needs are standard.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:34 pm)This is way too generalized.
I would take a BEV with 250 miles if I could fully charge it in less than 10 minutes from anywhere. That is not happening now and anytime in the future. This is why EREV is better for me.
And as far as supporting nations that want us dead, they can all be blown to kingdom come for all I care.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:34 pm)I tried it too (since it was highlighted in the video) and was confused as well–it just dumps you on the regular Volt page. I don’t think “getmyvolt.com” does anything special yet…stay tuned!
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:35 pm)DonC appears to be educated, intelligent, opinionated, stubborn, passionate but mostly still reasonable. I think many would describe me the same way. Yes, I have gotten frustrated with him as you have. I also see his points at other times. The key with him, like many others, is to know when enough is enough. You need to give up trying to convince him of your viewpoint (after a couple go-rounds), because he takes stubborn to a whole new level. DonC, if you are reading this (and I know you are), prove me wrong by telling us of an incident where someone here changed your mind on something- anything.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:36 pm)It does for the 5th person in your family
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:36 pm)You did not explain why it is a bad decision for a private consumer. Or…. where can we find information about why it is a bad decision?
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Jul 28th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Well there’s something I agree on.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Is anyone else remembering that the $7500.00 inventive is limited and will run out? Does anyone really believe that there will be much left when version II of the Volt comes out? This means the price will go UP not down.
+5
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:44 pm)A bit of humor to break up the monotony of these long message threads over the past few days…
Some people say that if they are going to paying a lot of money for a car, they want something that stands out more than the Volt’s typical sedan shape.
How about this? It’s “green”.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:44 pm)A “policy goal” defined as one, single consumer good is a very strange policy goal.
I’m certainly interested in keeping the economy of the US healthy but distorting the market to heavily favor a particular vehicle type (from a particular company) over all competing types isn’t healthy.
Ford has pretty good hybrid tech. They could, relatively easily, build a hybrid and then a PHEV hybrid Focus. A hybrid PHEV Focus using Ford’s drivetrain would be cheaper than a Volt, reduce oil use more significantly in the near term and would tend to encourage the use of batteries in vehicles, which ultimately would expand the battery industry and tend to lead us to more and better PHEVs, EREVs and BEVs. Yet, the way the incentive works, it’s focussed 100% on the capacity of the battery, so a PHEV Focus effort gets a significantly smaller incentive, compared to the investment necessary to make it a reality.
Better policy sets much broader goals and incentives so that a wide range of competitive ideas can emerge and duke it out. Some of these ideas will win and some will lose but even the losers may have other applications (which would be your innovation spillovers).
And the way things worked out, we don’t own the enabling technologies in the Volt, which are the cell and the cell manufacturing process. My experience, by the way, is that owning the process is just as important as owning the technology. Maybe more important. The $7500 tax credit might just as well be a check to the ROK, as it’s incenting GM to buy foreign cells, which incents and funds ROK battery development.
I’ll have to add this, which will probably get some negative clicks, but it must be pointed out… One of the “processes” involved in the creation of this advanced tech car is, simply, the process of building a car, any car (corporate operations, marketing, design and manufacture). GM’s processes are poor. Historically, this statement is certainly true because, if their processes were good, GM wouldn’t have gone into Chapter 11. With the Volt, GM’s processes resulted in an insignificant number of expensive vehicles, which suggest that post-Chapter 11, their processes have not magically improved. In other words, we ended up heavily subsidizing poor processes. This is not good.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (12:48 pm)I’m pretty sure LauraM said goals (plural) and cited that as one aspect of those goals.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (12:48 pm)They both won the Nobel for data based work, which is somewhat unusual. Usually it goes to someone with an elegant mathematical model that doesn’t actually predict anything accurately. But I digress. Krugman’s findings were that, as you’ve alluded to, there are clusters. So if you have a supplier-assembly cluster in Tennessee or Michigan then it’s highly likely that other manufacturers and suppliers will end up locating there. So the fact that Nissan is establishing a large assembly and battery plant in Tennessee means that you’ll see other EV production located there. It doesn’t seem to matter where the first 20K cars will come from. That’s just a detail. What’s far more important is where the first 200K or 2M cars come from. In this sense the Nissan production should be more important to the future of US EV production than GM’s efforts simply because it’s more ambitious.
In this regard, Ghosn has said Nissan needs to get to 500,000 copies a year in order to have EVs be viable without government incentives. But those copies are worldwide. To this end Nissan will have production in the UK, Japan, and the US. Of the three the US capacity will initially be the largest.
This is all good for the US. We’ll have US based production and our allies will also have a way of getting off oil. The is a key point since it won’t help if the US eliminates its dependency on oil if our allies don’t, so what happens in the EU and Japan and China and India is as important as what happens here. The big conflict is between conservative Islamists and just about everyone else.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:51 pm)From what I remember, GM ran to the Germans for a bailout too.
There was a lot more going on with the fall of the British Empire than globalization. While I can’t comment on the potential for a meaningful backlash towards globalization in general, to say that the Brits lost it all because they spread themselves out globally is a bit of an oversimplification. Bearing the brunt of the early years of WW2 might have had an effect as well. Jus’ sayin.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (12:53 pm)It’s like renting a house over buying one, you have nothing to show in the end after you have paid all that money. Yes you can buy the Volt at that time but remember, this car is estimated to have a high resale value. Now you have to find a lender that will finance your three year old used Volt that has a high resale value – not likely to happen. Your option, turn it in. You’ve paid $350.00+ a month for three years plus the down and have nothing left. Renting (lease) is only prudent in short term use such as going on a family vacation and renting a motorhome for the trip. Renting long term is never financially good unless you have some sort of business tax write off’s you can put against the payments.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:54 pm)Right now, Rush Limbaugh is talking about the Chevy VOLT launch, and one of the callers is giving him inaccurate information. Quick!!!! Get Lyle on the phone to call Rush and get him straightened out. He was misinformed about the reason for having a 240V charger in the garage. The caller left out the phrase “Rapid Charging” and so the conversation took a negative discussion about the VOLT.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Be careful here, I am not opposed to killing people per se, just good innocent people. I strongly disagree with any mass killing weapon. I fantasize about future laser technology that may allow a high flying aircraft to shoot specific leaders in a crowd. I approve of this form of assassination, if a large part of the world’s population agrees on the target.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:57 pm)The problem with your approach is that you keep assuming there is a free market to be distorted. Wake up. Smell the coffee. The 13 largest oil companies are run by the foreign governments. They’ve formed a cartel which sets the world price of oil, and they will use supply to advance their political and religious agendas, which are not aligned with our interests at all. So you don’t have a free market in the first place, and you can’t distort what doesn’t exist.
Your point about the government picking winners and losers is valid but completely misplaced when applied to Laura. Laura’s first preference is for a gas tax which would capture the externalities but leave it up to the markets to pick the winners and losers. That would clearly be the best solution. Since that isn’t possible given the (basic stupidity of) the American electorate her next choice is for subsidies.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (12:58 pm)Battery prices could drop by a few thousand.
A smaller cheaper engine should be used.
Less options could be included as standard (i.e. lower base price)
Traction motor pricing could drop as volume increases.
More “off-the-shelf” low power assesories could be used since EVs are moving ahead (maybe we don’t need the BOSE stereo after all).
Less development costs are needed for Version 2.0
Production numbers will be higher which means reduced cost per vehicle.
New technology cars can get cheaper. The fuel cell vehicle costs have been cut in half since the early days with the advent of simpler and cheaper fuel cells.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:58 pm)GM loaded the car up with all kinds of (stuff) I don’t want,again!
Now I have to wait for Ford and hope they don’t make the same mistake. If they do the same, it’s a Nissan for me.
Sorry GM you might make it but I don’t have to buy it.
Jul 28th, 2010 (12:58 pm)Wrong. Level III chargers are being developed in Japan right now that can charge at 480V / 500A. That would charge a vehicle with a 250 mile (highway) range in about 15 mins. The Tesla Roadster with Panasonic’s new 3.1 Ah cells would be able to travel 300 miles at 65 mph. All with technology being readied for production today.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (1:00 pm)Concerning the editors comment: “At this early point in time trying to prove buying the Volt offers economic advantage simply isn’t possible.”
I cannot disagree more. What the foundation for your economic analysis? If you are comparing it to other gas models that GM sells, they do not have the same user features of the Volt. The added cabin features such as the back up camera, remote access via apps, etc. puts the Volt on a different comfort level. I see the Volt as the highest end vehicle Chevrolet has ever offered. Its features are more comparable to the mid level imports which are certainly in the mid 40’s range if not higher.
Economically the Volt does make sense in its market nitch. On features alone, even without the benefit of the advanced power plant, the Volt can stand on its own 4 wheels.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:01 pm)The incentive is for 200K per manufaturer, there may be a clause in there on a per model basis, but then again, maybe not. With the anorexic figures GM will deliver, you’ll have quite a while till they reach that limit. Consider yourself “IN” for the rebate.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (1:02 pm)Probably no big deal. The average age of the Rush Limbaugh listener is something north of 65 and I wouldn’t want to speculate about what the median family income or educational level would be. IOW not too many potential Volt buyers to be effected in that demographic.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:03 pm)I’ve never been a proponent of leasing, but I have to respectfully disagree with you in this case. The Volt will cost $15,000 to lease for 3 years when it’s all said and done, compared with a $33.5k purchase price.
That leaves me almost $20k in savings that could buy, potentially in entirety, a brand new EREV 3 years from now. So a new car now and a new car in 3 years that costs me a total of $33.5k, or a new car now without a new one in 3 years that cost me a total of $33.5k. The latter is the clearly a bargain before even factoring in present/future value of money.
The big savings factor in leasing here is the prospect (and relatively high probability) that this new technology will have its associated costs decrease substantially over the next 3 years.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (1:06 pm)I totally agree with DonC and LauraM here. Taxes are a necessity, why not tax the oil boogeyman to reduce its use. Sin taxes are very common.
The tax would eliminate the need for the goofy CAFE standards and all of that regulation. None of this would be needed. People would simply buy smaller cars and the car makers who produce more of them would survivie and thrive. Those who don’t would become smaller car companies.
The gas tax is a simple and elegant solution to simpler regulations, reduced oil usage all while adding some needed tax revenue to the deficit.
Now if we could get the NitWits in Congress to spend less money we would be home free.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:07 pm)The incentives won’t run out until after GM makes 200,000 copies. At current production levels the incentives will be there for a good long time. As others have mentioned, by then costs for many things should have come down. So while the price may not come down after the rebates are gone it shouldn’t go up.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:08 pm)There is a huge flaw in today’s poll, IMO. Instead of saying “I will not lease or buy a Chevy Volt” there should be two ticks:
“I will not lease or buy a Chevy Volt for at least a year,” or “at this price”
and
“I will never lease or buy a Chevy Volt.”
Both attitudes exist, and are very different from one another.
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Jul 28th, 2010 (1:09 pm)DonC, your liberal bias is showing. You might be surprised by the affluence of Rush listeners.
These are not the jobless slackers and societal free-loaders that show up at left wing rallies. (just wanted to throw in a little conservative bias)….
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:09 pm)First time poster, long time reader!
I just scanned through this thread … I’m interested in how these two options (purchase vs lease) appeal to the DEALER. That is, how does this incentivize the dealer to push one type of sale over the other?
The only person who touched on it was CorvetteGuy, who in #149 above said:
“I also heard grumbling from the finance manager that in order to hit that payment, the vehicle is actually sold slightly less than MSRP and the dealership has to give up 60% of holdback to GMAC. In other words, I doubt many dealers will participate in that program if they are already racking up orders (at over MSRP) like there is no tomorrow.”
The only other comments that touched on this were about how the $7500 tax credit accrues to GM upon lease start.
Can you all comment more on that? Will dealers prefer to sell rather than lease because they’ll make more money on a direct purchase? Note I’m talking about the DEALER’s perspective, not GMs.
I’m interested because these leasing terms are perfect for me personally. I’ve been watching this EV business closely for two years and GM just score a direct hit for me personally. I’m extremely familiar with how money is made in the car business off new car purchases, but this will be my first lease and I’m less familiar with the forces at play there.
The car won’t be in my market (Atlanta) for many months and I’m considering hauling up to Virginia to buy a Volt. So I’d also like to hear about how GM might make that difficult or impossible even. Will they allow someone from out of market to walk into a launch market’s dealer and lease a Volt? Purchase?
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:11 pm)That’s what we call “range anxiety”. It’s something you never have to worry about in an ICE vehicle or in a Volt. The Volt, really, like an ICE vehicle, doesn’t have a 350 mile range or anything like that. Practically speaking, it has an infinite range. Compare the Volt’s infinite range to the 100 mile and less range on the Leaf. The range anxiety attendant to the Leaf you may say is not important, if you wish, but it is-absolutely-real.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:11 pm)It does have a lot of content. A lot. Other than lane change and collision mitigation, power seats, and run flat tires, the Volt has the same or better content that what I’ve got now, a new version of which has an MSRP of $54K.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:12 pm)Er, should say the former is the deal, not the latter (in post 216)
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+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:13 pm)Yesterday I started composing a post a couple of times, but then shortly before pulling the trigger, I deleted the comment. I basically made up my mind not to post, and to sit back awhile and wait until I had time to really look the situation over.
The MSRP is definitely higher than I expected. I think if it were a at least a few thousand lower, it would’ve saved some, (not all) but some of the sticker shock. After further checking, I think it is as Nasaman, DonC, and others are pointing out, that GM is funneling customers to the lease option. The lease option appears the better of the two, but it depends on your feelings and convictions towards leasing. Either way, I think GM will be able to sell their projected 10,000 Volts with little problem—and that’s one thing that puts a smile on my face.
With myself, I’ve known for a long time already that I wouldn’t be able to be a Gen. 1 customer. My peace has been made with that a few years ago already. But I still rooted for a lower MSRP so that more first adopters would be attracted to buy this car. I’m sad the MSRP is where it is, but by the same token, I can’t fault GM for wanting to make a margin (no matter how small) on every vehicle.
The bottom line for me is I will continue to support Lyle, support GM, and support the Volt team for their efforts today and every day to push forward the electric vehicle. I’m also rooting for the early adopters some of which frequent our site every day for putting their own money where their mouth is, and buying an electric car.
GO VOLT!
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Good one. My friends might crack up about the liberal part, but I’m not making any assumptions about the age — that’s just looking at the published demographics — the average age a couple of years ago was 67 and it hasn’t gotten any younger. In any event Volts and Leafs are going to appeal to the same demographic base which has embraced hybrids — something like 90% of Leaf buyers own a hybrid — and this doesn’t strike me as Rush’s demographic. However, thinking about it, you may be right about the income level of the Rush listener. Old people are more affluent than average and Rush’s listener base in definitely old.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Don–This is the best post on a lease I have seen yet–thanks
I would like to see the money factor and residual and also the acqusition fee charged so we can evaluate this lease in a common sense manner.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Economic advantage is in the wallet of the beholder.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:18 pm)John W (Tampa): Laura don’t get into a conversation with DonC unless you like being frustrated.He never agrees with anything anyone says.
LOL, well I wouldn’t say never….
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:20 pm)I didn’t participate in the poll because I will not be buying any new car. I hope for the poll to have validity that only people planning to purchase a new car in the next year will participate.
I think it should have said “only for new car buyers.”
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:26 pm)Buying a car, especially this car, is one of the rare opportunities for, me, as the consumer to help keep some technology production in the US. Obviously, this car by itself won’t do it. But as a consumer, I’m going to take every chance I have to help my country maintain it’s competitive edge. (And, by the way, I buy as much Made in the USA as possible. It goes way beyond cars. I buy made in the USA wherever possible. Glass. Wine. Clothing. Sunglasses. I even make sure that my shampoo and conditioner are made in the USA.)
As far as distorting the market–as a consumer, I”m not distorting anything. I’m picking a car that helps me reduce my oil use, and my pollution emissions, while supporting the production of technology in the country that I live in.
If I were in charge of creating an industrial policy, clearly, I wouldn’t pull all my eggs in one basket. But I would do my best to favor any and all US production over any and all overseas production. Just like every other country in the world does.
That’s what happens when you let go of certain technologies. And let production of certain goods leave the country. Because to do otherwise is to “interfere with the free markets.” At some point, you don’t have a choice. You have to use other country’s inputs while you catch up. That doesn’t meant you shouldn’t try to develop as much technology within your country as possible. It works for China.
There was a lot more to GM’s bankruptcy than inefficient processes. Pension liabilities. Structural manufacturing disadvantages. Etc.
Now, clearly GM had inefficient processes at some point. Whether or not they still do is an open question. I’m clearly not in a position to say. But choosing to run the Volt as a low volume high priced vehicle in the early stages is a strategic choice. And their processes have nothing to do with it.
But even if they do have inefficient processes, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t support them. It means we need to do what we can to help them catch up. (Like China is doing.) Besides, the only reason any company. Toyota. Honda. Etc. Do any manufacturing in the US is because we have a domestic auto industry. So they have to compete in made in the USA content. If they didn’t have domestic manufacturers, they would have simply continued to export from Japan. Or Korea.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:26 pm)The pricing up roar will truly spur other ways of electrifying peoples transportation. The retro- fitting of gasoline engine cars to electric is a great alternative to these high priced “new” cars. This will also help in environmental ways to re-use something that there are too many of in the first place! As for range anxiety, I don’t think that was even an issue with any of the fortunate EV-1 participants. People will adapt in many ways other than shelling out lot’s of cash…
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:30 pm)Good luck making those ubiquitous in the near future.
There are highways in the USA that don’t have electricity on them or near them. It will take many years for this technology to become ubiquitous.
I missed typed my previous comment where I should have said near future instead of future.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:30 pm)This has come up several times. They have stated that they will support this, and are encouraging dealerships outside the launch areas to become Volt qualified service centers. Check with your local Chevy dealers to find out who will be qualified for Volt service.
-1
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:31 pm)Actually, the discussion was already negative, but you are right about it sounding like you NEEDED a charging station. Rush had already given his diatribe about the Volt getting a tax credit (which was his main beef). He also SEEMED to think that the full range was too *big*, since his 8 mpg car could only go 250 miles on a tank. Overall, Rush had more facts right than about 80% of people at car lots that I’ve talked to, but that should change soon (the dealers knowledge, not Rush)(g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:32 pm)Well, I will say this. Since they don’t care who they kill or maim, I won’t either.
I will never forget the innocent lives that were lost on 9-11.
You and I will just have to disagree on this one point.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:34 pm)And look how that turned out. With the American taxpayer subsidizing German production.
The British lost economic supremacy in the late 1800s. Well before WWI. Never mind WWII. Clearly WWII put an end to the pound as the world reserve currency. And officially marked the emergence of the US as the leading world political and economic power. But they were falling behind economically for a long time before that.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:39 pm)Why do you keep comparing the range of burning gasoline and continue to fund nations that want us dead to the range of a real EV that burns no gas when driven? That’s like saying a Malibu get’s longer range than a real EV.
Then you go on and claim an infinite range? Wow, I can drive from the East coast to the West coast on one charge. Where can I buy such a car?
Here’s where the lame one sided apples to oranges comparisons come in. If you’re going to compare clean EV non burning petroleum range, compare the 40 miles in the Volt to the 100 miles in the EV Leaf or Mini e, or iMiev or Coda. Then compare the dirty polluting foreign oil dependent CS mode that gets “Comparable to a Corolla” to a real “Hybrid”.
Sure, you can go past the 100 miles of a real EV, that is the best selling quality, the ability to keep your dependency on foreign oil to support the same nations that want you dead.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:39 pm)I think the technical term is Pigovian taxes not “sin taxes”. Sounds much more profound, don’t you think?
As for spending, the problem is that people want services but don’t want to pay for them. Politicians are just going with the flow so they’ve cooked up a Kool Aid Narrative that says everything would be fine if we just eliminated “wasteful” spending. Of course the spending they’re talking about amounts of about .00001% of the budget and probably does have some purpose, but no matter, it gets you elected. When you see politicians say they want to cut spending and that they’ll start with Medicare, Social Security, and Defense, then you know there is a chance that the deficits will be brought under control.
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:44 pm)As much as I want a gas tax (and I’ve argued for one numerous times here), I also favor an industrial policy. And that means matching Singapore and South Korea subsidy for subsidy.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:44 pm)We were promised an electric car “for the masses.” The Gen I Volt obviously isn’t it, and was never intended to be.
Now; before you neg me, consider:
GM needed to get “Wheels on the Road” by the end of this year because of prior commitments; but needed or wanted more time to do the at-large consumer testing which would be more typical of a “Project Driveway” type of approach. They also needed to wait for suppliers to ramp up. A visible roll-out, however small, would be important for appearance’s sake before an IPO. There are other valid points in support of this view. They are obviously not willing or able to make more than 10K Volts at this time.
Don’t forget that we’re talking about a basically broke company, until some time after the IPO. How do you use your limited resources to cover as many bases as possible?
How do you achieve the results of a “Project Driveway” without full control over the vehicles involved? I submit that you keep numbers low, drastically favor leasing, make sure the car is electronically tied to GM with short apron-strings (OnStar, for data collection), and hold to a leisurely regional-based roll-out. In other words, just what we’ve seen.
On the spectrum of in-public-sight introductions, 10,000 Volts in a year needs to be placed somewhere beyond the Mini-E lease program, but not quite as far as the LEAF roll-out.
The promised Volt is on it’s way. The fact that GM cannot absolutely control the fate of all the Gen Ones is a strong sign of this. However, short-sighted trolls are going to make that wait much harder than the previous 3 years.
Personally, my big unanswered question is: What version of the Volt will be a reasonable option for a significant number of buyers? II, or III? And how long before that version appears?
To those critical of Volt Gen I, I would observe that the first out of the gate isn’t always the first across the finish line. The real world is more complex than a knee-jerk. Add in the fact that the ‘finish line’ is by no means distinct. If we say that the finish line is a full 1% of all cars on the road being EVs (EV defined as all-electric drive, BEV & EREV, but not PHEV), I don’t think there’s much doubt that EREV will rule the day over short-range BEVs. Remember, BEVs are much more vulnerable to infrastructure limitations; and nothing can change that, quickly.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:45 pm)RANDY @143 says: “Buying foreign is short sighted economic thinking, buy the leaf and lose jobs but save gas, buy the volt and create jobs and save gas at the same time. Its not charity to buy american its our only economic hope for the future. By buying american products we are assuring our long term economic survival instead of japans future.”
———————————————————————————-
This is so true. Many people purchase big ticket items from abroad in a very short-sighted way. It never occurs to them that they may be putting their neighbors or relatives out of work.
When this country was building its first railroads, Abe Lincoln said that we could buy the rails from England – in which case they would have money and we would have the rails, OR we could make the rails in America – in which case we would have the rails AND the money.
Lincoln was not a short-sighted man, as we all know.
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:48 pm)CorvetteGuy’s also lucky in that his dealership actually has some allocation. I can’t blame any dealer for wanting to sell cars that he actually has in stock. It’s up to us consumers to hold out for a plug-in.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (1:49 pm)There is no way, IMHO, Rush Limbaugh would ever say anything positive about the Volt. Not after GM was bailed out by the US government. Or, more specifically, the Obama administration.
Just like you won’t find MSNBC mention anything remotely positive about the Bush administration. They’re called partisan for a reason.
-3
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:01 pm)He was actually “even-handed” in his objections to the Leaf tax credits. I don’t remember Nissan getting a bail-out. He’s generally been VERY critical of the Bushs as well. Just an observation.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:03 pm)I have been wondering if the lease offer is that much better than the purchase price. I found an internet offer for a Prius (gasp!) that I think is competitive although not the absolute best, with these numbers: $22,300 purchase cost, or $199 a month for 36 months with $1250 down A 0% apr is reportedly used.
Starting here, 199*41,000/22,300 = $366/month. This is not an exact apples to apples comparison because the down payment should be $1360 for equivalent ratios. If the down payments were equal, the Prius monthly payment would be about $3 less a month.
So by my reckoning the Volt lease is about $13 cheaper a month than a current competing offer. Earth shattering ?
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:04 pm)I’m also very cognizant of “Made in USA” items when I go to buy. Plus 1 to you for doing that! Sadly, it gets more and more difficult to uphold that creed though. Clothing and electronics are practically never made in America anymore. I’m a firm believer in changing the lop-sided trade policy in this country. Doing so would virtually eliminate the unemployment conundrum. And I see nothing wrong with being protectionist…the other countries get away with heinous protectionist acts all the time and it is just written off as business as usual. Makes blood pressure rise. Therefore, it is good to exercise our collective muscle as consumers and buy Made in USA things, as it appears some of the best (and maybe only) leverage we have.
I enjoy reading your insights BTW. You are valuable asset to this blog.
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:08 pm)Fair enough. Your post seemed to say to me that the technology wouldn’t exist in the near future. I’m simply saying that it exists now.
It will take time for Level III charging to be ubiquitous, but that’s not necessary to get the ball rolling. If there were only a handfull of 500A Level III chargers up and down the 401, I would be able to go almost anywhere in Southern Ontario, from Windsor to Ottawa, with an EV that does 200-300 highway miles per charge. Ontario is a pretty big place.
The thing to remember is that there is more charging opportunity out there than you think. With 200-300 miles of range, Level I and Level II home and opportunity charging is sufficient to commute and get around most places most days. The Level III charging helps when you have a 300 mile or longer trip that you need to do in one shot. Many Tesla Roadster drivers take advantage of 240V / 30A and 50A outlets at RV parks for top ups, making road trips possible, if requiring a bit more patience. Somone is going to come out with a RV to J1772 connector eventually, like the Roadster drivers use. There are many options out there for those willing to look around and plan a little.
I’m a big fan of the Volt concept, but BEVs are on the verge of being a viable form of transportation all on thier own. What I can’t predict is the will of the people to implement the technology that exists. On that note, we will have to agree to disagree. My hope is that it will be quicker than you think.
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:09 pm)Randy, in 2009 the US imported more than 350 million barrels of oil from Saudi alone. That addiction has been passed to China now importing about 20% of their oil from Saudi. Wars are still fought over resources and oil remains the major energy source. But you are correct that the war machine must be fed and the current bad guys are Islamic.
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:14 pm)I’m just so disappointed with the price. It’s just too expensive! I sure hope GM hasn’t shot themselves in the foot….
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:28 pm)Greentechmedia.com
“John Gartner, a senior analyst at Pike Research, says oversupply is possible. He projects that by 2015 the installed price of battery systems (including thermal management gear and other finishing equipment) will be cut in half.”
in case you missed it
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:37 pm)The Volt’s $41K base price is fairly consistent with what former GM VP Bob Lutz said the cost would be months ago. For sure it would have been good news if the introductory price was far lower.
When gas prices are low buying a $41K first generation Chevrolet Volt four passenger compact sedan doesn’t make economic sense for most folks. I hope GM finds enough early adopters for the initial 10,000 and that helps motivate higher volume production at a lower cost for everyone else.
On a recent GM webcast a presenter said the Volt’s generator needs 91 octane gas for optimum efficiency? The Volt’s MPGs in charge sustaining mode and gas tank size still haven’t been announced.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:38 pm)Has anyone mentioned that the $350.00 lease payment does not include taxes or any other fees? I’m sure the final monthly payment is closer to $450.00 — Same for the Nissan Leaf.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:41 pm)Actually leasing makes good sense in many ways.
a 3 year lease is usually inside the warranty period, and at a lower cost. You are always driving a newer vehicle, taking advantage of technological advances. Ie. lease a Volt @ $350. or buy at $800. I can lease a gen 1 volt for 3 years, flip it back, lease a gen 2 volt (assuming same rate), flip it back, and get a year in gen 3. Iget all the bells and whistles, improvements and a car never older than 3 years old spanning 3 generations for the same $s. (800 x 36 months = 28800.00 is equal to 350.00 x 82 (.285) months. This assumes same rates over 3 generations and only 3 years at 800 bucks (Do the math, you will pay longer than that.) so after the same dollars you own a 7 year old gen 1 with what residual (at that point likey 80,000 miles, no warranty left…) I may not own mine, but will save more than you as my Gen 3 will iley have a better ER part to the ER-EV equation and better batteries.
A financial adviser once told me, lease / rent what depreciates, and buy what appreciates. with some exceptions, cars always depreciate. Collectibles and real estate do not.
So I on’t own the car..who cares? think what gen 3 may be? fuel cell with 120 mile AER?? Mr. fusion? EEESTORE? (hahah ok, had to throw it in…)
flip side (trickle down if you will ) is that the lease returns are now more affordable to “non early” adopters, at a cost they can afford either to buy or re-lease spurring greater adoption and price reduction….drinks all around…
The lease is a good thing.
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:41 pm)“At this early point in time trying to prove buying the Volt offers economic advantage simply isn’t possible.”
Due to the uncertainty of future oil prices, it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever provide a hard-number economic analysis of the Volt. Even at the high price of $41,000 the Volt may end up being a great bargain if the worst fears of peak oil people are correct. I seriously doubt the most dire predictions of peakists, but it is clear that we are entering a new age of difficult oil. Oil prices will be going up in the future years . . . we just don’t know how fast.
There are many many unknowns . . . are the OPEC reserve numbers accurate? Will oil producing countries begin hoarding their oil once it becomes clear that oil supplies are not meeting demand? Will a big new discovery be made? (unlikely) Will carbon taxes hit? Will China keep growing like crazy? Or will their growth (and their big appetite for more oil) slow down? Will there be a war in some important oil country? (Attack on Iran? Renewed insurgency in Iraq? Civil war in Nigeria?) Will deepwater oil continue to grow? Will deepwater be severely restricted due to the Gulf oil disaster? Will deepwater disappoint as the Thunderhorse field has?
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:46 pm)Seriously now . . . Can anyone provide a good justification for being $8200 more than the Leaf? Yes, it has a gas engine . . . but engines do not cost $8000. And the Volt has a much smaller battery. Forget comparisons with gas cars or other $41K cars . . . The $8K spread between the Leaf and the Volt is the real killer here.
With $8K, you can buy a used gas car and a lot of gas for when you need to drive long distances but otherwise use the Leaf for daily driving.
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:51 pm)If that is correct then when the Volt finally makes it to Australia it can run on Regular Unleaded as the octane rating is 91.
Hopefully, as well the price will have dropped since it will most likely be the G2 model that is the first to arrive in Oz and they add a another seat for 5 people rather than 4.
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:53 pm)I also forgot to say to those that think..all that money and nothing to show for it. You will pay more, much more for what will be a relic.. that you would be lucky to get much on the trade in. (go ahead look at the residuals of almost ANY 8 year old car..it ain’t much sunshine. after 5 years, it has been shown that maintenance costs increase, and you are on the bill for all of it..my lease is under warranty.
of course there are mileage considerations and some other factors, but leasing = good
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:55 pm)Oh . . . the lease. Yes, it is very nice that it is the same price as the Leaf. I hope many people take advantage of it. But the lease price worries me for a few reasons:
1) I’m not a lease type of guy, so I look at the main cash price. And a lot of people are like me. But again, it is great for people that do leases.
2) The low lease price compared to the high purchase price will (and already has) create a massive flood of conspiracy theories among all the old EV-1 people and anyone that has seen “Who killed the Electric Car?”. Surely the must have known that would happen? Why did they allow it to happen? I guess they are not worried about it?
3) What is going to happen when the leases end? Is GM going to be stuck with a massive number of old Volts? (People may want the next new thing or the buy-out price may be too high) Will they then have to sell them at a loss? Will people be willing to buy a 3 year-old car that has a battery which degrades with time and usage?
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (2:55 pm)I stand corrected. It’s not like I’ve ever listened to the guy. That said, if he’s against electric car tax credits on principle–well, it doesn’t exactly encourage me to think he has anything valid to say.
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:02 pm)I would guess that I won’t be able to get a Volt for 3 years because of the low supply. I would guess that a lot of you are in the same position. The law of supply and demand would mean that unless you are willing to pay more money you won’t get one.
It would be great to a Volt for list price right now. I am guessing you would have to pay more to get a Volt. I will go the Chevy dealer as soon as the Volt is sold in MN and put my name on the list. I would guess that it will be 3 year process.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:05 pm)Tell me about it. I can find clothing that’s made in the US. But it’s keeps getting harder and harder. Oakley used to make their sunglasses in the US. But they were recently bought by an Italian company. And, many of their newer models don’t say Made in the USA anymore.
At this point, I sometimes have to go with made in Europe (mainly Italy or Germany). Since Europeans will at least buy American products…well, more than Chinese consumers will anyway.
Thank you for the compliment. I enjoy reading your comments too. I know I haven’t been around as much lately because of work, and, well, other things. But this has become my favorite place to hang out on the web.
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:05 pm)I think that we’ll know how much of a $ difference is/was warranted (no pun) 3 or 4 years from now, because we don’t know yet how much, if any, impact deeper cycling and minimal thermal control will effect the batteries in the Leaf – or whether battery pampering in the Volt was necessary. GM sure has gathered a lot of data on their battery, but (as I’ve been whining for years) no appreciable in vivo data. Once the two cars get some miles and years on the battery, we’ll know for sure. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:09 pm)Unless you plan on towing that used gasoline powered car you will still get stuck when your juice runs out. I personally don’t want to check mapquest distances and routing algorithms everytime I need to run an errand to make sure I don’t run out of juice. Along with that you would have insurance/maintenance/storage of another vehicle to deal with. That is the difference in my mind.
I don’t really care what the price is on this car. I just want it to be successful for GM and for the future of these types of cars.
That being said I think the lease price on it is very agressive and when you compare the cost of the lease on a monthly basis versus say another car 25mpg car you could easily save over 100 a month in gas. So it would be like comparing it against another car you leasing for 250 a month. I don’t really like the idea of leasing but for this type of car I would consider it. It would remove some risk from the buyer and maybe allow you to trade in for a newer (hopefully cheaper) version in the future.
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:10 pm)LOL, as long as you’re open-minded! I listen to the government sponsored radio, just to hear their side.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:13 pm)Some people need to go back and re-watch “Who Killed the Electric Car?”
Remember how GM blamed the consumer for lack of demand of the product?
Remember how they crushed the cars even though some people offered nearly SIX figures for the car?
First people complained that they can’t get a Volt because they aren’t sold in their area, then that they aren’t producing enough, and NOW they are saying they won’t even BUY one because of the price! New technology costs money.
The EV1 was unavailable for sale because of its initial cost. The people complained that GM’s next electric car MUST be available for SALE. GM listened.
The Volt has NEVER been done before. EVER. It is expensive. Can you believe it?
So many people are complaining about the price of a car that isn’t even available to them! I hope GM keeps making them so they can figure out how to drop the price. Otherwise, expect all of your complaints to headline the next article: “Who killed the Electric Car again? You did.”
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:27 pm)This reminds me of a quote I once heard. “I was wrong once. I thought I was wrong but it turned out I wasn’t”
Probably the only time DonC thinks he was wrong.
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:30 pm)This is not charity party and GM is profit driven company. So take it or leave it.
On other hand the voltec is very promising green technology having good possibility compete IEC on economical terms. I can not tell you the same about wind, solar or biomas combustion technologies. They are two-four times more costly than conventional technologies based on coal or nuclear.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:37 pm)I can.
1. I can only have 1 car where I live, many other people are in the same circumstance.
2. I at least every other week need the ability to drive 200 or 300 miles. I’m not renting a car every other week.
3. The Volt is a better engineered car flat out, the battery will last longer, I don’t care if they both have the same warranty I’m smart enough to know that Nissans battery will lose a lot of range in 8 years.
4. In my opinion the Volt looks better
5. Made in America
6. I don’t need to install a 2 thousand dollar charger to make sure the battery is fully charged.
These 6 reasons and I’m sure I could think of more do it for me.
-1
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:40 pm)Also consider that Nissan may be able to figure out how to put a generator in the LEAF for far less than $8K.
GM designed the Volt for the same performance in either mode. Perhaps Nissan will go down the route of a little tiny gas engine that can get you home. That would kill range anxiety. The car wouldn’t be a road trip car, but for many that would be good enough. It certainly would be for me.
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:40 pm)The problem is that those two statements conflict with each other. I want the Volt to succeed too . . . I just think a high price will prevent it from succeeding. Perhaps they can skate by for the first year with such a high-price due to early adopters. But that price cannot support a sustainable business. Either the price of the Volt needs to come down or the price of gas needs to shoot up . . . otherwise the Volt will ultimately fail.
The Tesla Roadster was based on selling to early adopters & EV fans . . . it has sold only 1000 cars.
$8K is a big difference. That can pay for towings, insurance, gas, rental cars, etc. $8K is too steep of a premium just to get rid of ‘range anxiety’.
-1
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:44 pm)I’m not really bullish on the idea of electric car tax credits myself.
What I’d rather see is an import tax on petroleum that was then passed through to all technologies that displace oil – mass transit, carpoling, electric cars, bio-fuel and coal to liquids. That would be revenue neutral and would wean us off imported oil.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:46 pm)Well I hope there are a lot of people like you out there John.
Your point about the charger is an excellent one . . . that really does cut the price difference down to $6K which helps a lot. I also agree that the Volt has a much better battery conditioning system and that is very important.
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:47 pm)By years end most of the emotional exchange over the $41k (before options) MSRP will have settled into the past. The Cruze will have been introduced. A somewhat successful GM IPO will have been made available. It will spike on talk of a variety of future Voltec vehicles. And will then settle back to the reality of day to day living in a weak economic environment. Ford, BYD, and a new manufacturer will have responded to the General Motors Volt with their offerings.
The plug-in Prius will take the electric spot light for several months. By Spring 2011 a Korean manufacturer will use an inexpensive Li-Ion battery to offer an affordable basic EREV truck.
In Summer 2011 GM will announce the new E85 capable Volt. With a redesigned center control panel. The base price will remain at $41k. The Cruze and Camaro will sell less well than expected and GM stock will slowly slide about 2% per month. GM will then announce plans to revive the Converj. They will initially state an under $50k MSRP. And later revise this figure up to “around $57k”.
Ford will release the EV Focus for $2000 less than a LEAF. Cherry of China will park their new EV outside of Walmarts and Costcos across America. The Obama administration will announce that the initial injection of tax payer dollars into EV tax credits will be reduced. Stating, “We just don’t have enough of your tax dollars to give back to you in the form of a credit”.
=D-Volt
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:50 pm)$40,000 was an emotional tipping point. I doubt we would have seen half the chest beating had the price been $39,500. Nor was that number picked at random; it’s the difference after removing $1500 for 5 years of OnStar.
GM bit off a lot to chew when it took on the Volt project. Just the EREV concept took a lot of engineering effort, and added a lot to the cost of the car. We didn’t really need Tony DiSalle to show up from OnStar to try and make the Volt all about a “Connected Experience.” IMO, MSRP could have been a lot lower than $39,500 (OnStar is the only easily quantifiable figure; there is much, much more gee-whiz gimmickry which might have been skipped — at who knows how much savings).
Once Gen I was considered to be a limited release, perhaps OnStar was the way to get better data for a later version. Or was it the added cost of the “Connected Experience” which led Gen I to lower numbers? Whichever it was, at some point, the tail started wagging the dog. GM should have tackled one or the other, not both.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:53 pm)Don J says: “Either the price of the Volt needs to come down or the price of gas needs to shoot up . . . otherwise the Volt will ultimately fail.”
I suspect that most readers of this blog believe that BOTH of the above conditions will be met eventually. The key question remaining is not IF those two things will happen, but WHEN, i.e., what is the likely time frame?
I just hope that GM has enough patience to see this thing through the lean times (I think it does).
George, Canada…go Volt!!
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:53 pm)I’m not sure if I’d be too harsh on the Chinese. I think a lot of Asians in general like America and American products. The Japanese, now that’s another story. I know the citizens may like us, but the government and certain groups make it very unpatriotic to buy anything but Japanese products. GM sold something like 2000 cars over there last year. In China however GM sold more cars their last month then they sold in the U.S.
I go back and forth, protectionism or not. Sure it’d be great for our country, then I think we’re all human. We consume so much in this country and the average Chinese person still makes like around 10k a year. And then there’s India and Africa. We’re all human beings.
Let’s just hope all of us in wealthy countries can slowly get richer while the poorer nations can catch up. This won’t be possible with the way we live in America now. We have to embrace the change that’s going on in the world. We have to learn to consume less, if the poor nations want to be like us and eventually get there the world will become a giant waste pit.
I’d bet anyone who get’s angry that so many things are made cheaply in China has never been there. Those people need the money way more than we do. People just a couple decades ago died by the millions of starvation.
We’re just gonna have to work harder and be content that we live in such a beautiful country.
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:56 pm)A shame. I tried very hard to get a decent conversation going with a Connecticut Chevrolet dealer on the “GETMYVOLT” list. No luck, little awareness. Chevy is not quite the dealership brand renowned for having well rounded, knowledgable sales staff. Wish this car were a Buick.
Nonetheless, Chevy Volt: American-made, American-FUELED.
-1
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:58 pm)First, the car you want is not necessarily the best solution or even a good one.
Second, while it’s true that your decision doesn’t distort the market, you are making your decision in a market that is already distorted and your choices are skewed by that distortion.
Third, you buy American wherever possible… that’s all well and good. All other things being equal, I buy American. This is why I own a Toyota. Which was made in Japan. It was the clear leader in a number of categories (not just reliability, it was quieter, had a nicer interior a better sounding stereo and significantly more power at slighly better fuel economy). All other things weren’t equal and I have to balance getting value for my dollar against my domestic preference. If you subsidize poor products with a strong domestic preference, we won’t be making any money exporting them, will we? There’s a reason Malibus don’t sell well in Japan.
And… we’ll come back to your product list in a minute…
Fourth, while it might be necessary to use some other country’s inputs as part of the revival process, we are directly encouraging their continued investment in the core enabling technology. There’s dozens of companies in the world that can build a Volt, given access to good battery technology. It’s the emergence of a battery chemistry that makes a reasonable-size 16kwh battery which enables the Volt. That is the core tech and that we are not getting leverage in that core industry for our tax credit.
Your product list… what on that list is high-tech? What on that list looks to future products and markets? You’ve named products from mature industries, not the emerging ones that will lead to products we can ship to Asia.
Fifth, one of GM’s processes is the process of running their business (pensions, union negotiations, GMAC, etc). GM’s failure was the sum of their operations process, marketing, design and manufacture. Some of those may have been worse than others but how do we know whether or not the best processes are being encouraged and the worst fixed? We have to judge by results and what has popped out of the Volt development process is, to my mind, not worth $41K. If GM isn’t creating high-value, competitive cars, then there’s still something wrong. GM’s shielded from market judgement at this point because they don’t dare put any significant quantity of these things into the market to test it.
This is right out of the Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade hybrid playbook… all the way, including optioning it up to extremes to provide ‘value’ for the price they must get.
Jul 28th, 2010 (3:59 pm)The Tesla S is only $12,000 more. That may be my way to finally go if this doesn’t work out. Tesla S gives the thrill the original prototype model did.
-5
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:00 pm)7. You can afford to pay for $41K + plus dealer markup!!
That makes you the “Niche” market the Volt was designed and priced for. Congratulations!
As for the chargers $2.2K, there is a rebate of $1100 on it. I believe it’s a federal rebate.
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:01 pm)You don’t need a Volt or Converj, Dave; you can just keep on driving that hovering DeLorean of yours.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:04 pm)I will pay more attention to price estimates when the Tesla S is. I doubt very much that you’ll find an S for sale before it’s cost rises, and/or Volt’s comes down (that is, of course, if you can ever find one at all).
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:07 pm)China is selling a million cars a month, more than the USA. Nearly all gas driven. Just a matter of time before $200 barrels of oil are in the near future. At $37K after incentives, this car will be a pleasant bargain.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED. TESLA S NISSAN LEAF Ford Fusion hybrid, Lincoln MKZ hybrid – anything to help this country stop pumping $100,000,000,000.00 a year to the Middle-East not to mention the $2.5 trillion spent on middle east war is a positive.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:08 pm)Charlie H’s unchanging thesis for all of us, conveniently stated in a single sentence. We get it, Charlie. Please find another way to kill an afternoon.
/Yes, a few parting shots before I log off …
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:14 pm)But that’s because the Germans told them to stuff it, not because they weren’t able to ask. Germany could well have handed over a bailout, they decided not to. The point is, GM is a global company, which resorted to global begging when times got tough.
As for Britian, I agree there were lots of factors for many, many years. But that’s kinda the point. It’s not globalization alone that spelled the death of the Empire. Besides, even in decline, the Brits were still a signifigant global presence even in the early 1900’s.
While I understand your views, and agree that a home grown economy is necessary to be strong in todays economic world, I would also point out, more generally, that protectionism only makes sense if you believe there is a reason to be a citizen of one particular state. Many people have multiple citizenships, travel all over the world, and do business globally. In the end, we are all human beings living on the same chunks of rock and dirt. There may come a day when individual states are a distant memory. Cultures are blending, political and economic principles are travelling the globe and finding support and resistance. Globalisation may be nothing more than the first steps at creating a single, human, global state. That may not be a bad thing, as long as it’s a world free of tyranny and open to opportunity and innovation. States came into existence to unite peoples of a particular area, when travel was long and arduous and most people lived and died within thier immediate location. Those conditions no longer exist.
Just a thought…
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:16 pm)Actually, I drive a CR-V. Own it outright and am enjoying the new Goodyear Fuel Max tires. Have to live with 28mph highway for now. My wife doesn’t want a Volt in the garage. I told her I was buying one and that it would cost $32k (with leather) out-of-pocket after the tax credit.
$41,000 plus leather = $43,000
$43,000 plus 10% (delivery fees) = $47,300
less $7500 (tax credit) = $39,800
So no Volt for us this year. Will patiently wait for the 2011 menu.
=D-Volt
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:17 pm)Great Gooogley Mooogley!
I’m obviously late to the game…..285 posts late.
I aint gonna read all of them. I’m a bottom feeder so i’ll read the last few…lol
-4
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:18 pm)But 5 years of OnStar doesn’t cost GM $1500.
The “value” of 5 years of OnStar is almost perfectly arbitrary, as it is being used here. I wouldn’t pay much for it… certainly not $300/year. I have a GPS and a cell phone and I’ve never locked my keys in my car. I doubt that I could be persuaded to sign up at $25/year. Ditto XM radio… if I can’t get anything on FM, I drop a CD into the player.
The value of many other options is similarly arbitrary. The only value in the long option list is to GM… it allows them to offer you a lot of “value” for the money and they certainly cost GM less than the price GM charges for them.
The problem with the Volt is that GM just can not build this car at anything close to a mainstream price. And this is not surprising… look at the Cruze to see a GM vehicle with similar pricing issues. The Cruze is priced hundreds higher than a Civic and maybe a thousand higher than a Corolla. The Cruze Eco, now there’s a con job: an extra $2K to get the fuel economy of a Fiesta, which sells for $13K!
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:22 pm)I aint holdin my breath either. I betcha Toyota spits out an EV at NUMMI before the Models S.
/but that’s jus me.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:23 pm)Lyle,
I think you need to write an article soon on the range extender mpg. I really think people need to lower their expectations on that as well. For years we’ve heard 50 was a target but with only a 9 gallon tank and a 300 mile gas range 50 isn’t looking too realistic. If there is a 1 gallon buffer then it may be around 37.5 mpg on the highway. Perhaps closer to 50 in the city with the regen braking though. But see, there I go, probably setting too high of expectations again. Maybe we Americans are just too darn optimistic.
Maybe you could lower peoples expectations a little with a nice article and then do another poll.
33.3 mpg if GM is counting the whole 9 gallons
I think I’ll set my expectations low here. 32 highway 42 city
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:24 pm)OnSh|t…….yuck!
/wha…..what?
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:25 pm)Boy, if my car only did 28 mph, I’d consider going back to talk to the Mrs. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:27 pm)That was badly expressed… The car Laura will buy is liimited to the range of choices she’s given. Distorting the market changes Laura’s choices. If the incentives were different, Laura’s choices would be different and might well be better for both Laura and a larger segment of the population. Certainly, it would be hard to say a market with several EREV choices ranging from $25K to $41K would be very likely to offer Laura something she preferred over the Volt.
And there will be a limited range of choices, of course. Hand-crafted cars are a thing of the past and boutique manufacturers, like Tesla, are going to face an uphill battle delivering value against the Japanse, Korean and Detroit competition. Incentives must be geared towards producing products that are going to be truly mass-market solutions. The narrow incentive that is aimed straight at the Volt is not a healthy thing.
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:29 pm)I repeat my quote from yesterday…
GM released the ordering information last Saturday, July 24th, to dealers. We placed our first 3 SOLD orders that day and provided our customers with the GM assigned order numbers. Each customer chose their options and colors. At that time, they did not know the price, but as of today they do. Each has confirmed they still want their VOLT.
We have 25+ more customers who have expressed interest in the VOLT and have been keeping them updated as information has come out. I suspect that within the week we will have committments from enough customers to sell out our allocation of 7 VOLTS. After those are spoken for, we will continue to take orders on a ‘will try’ basis…. or for delivery later next year. The initial allocation covers production through June 2011. We will get more from July – December 2011. There will clearly be some knowledge gaps from dealer to dealer as some have stayed up on the development of the VOLT and some are just waking up to it. Keep looking…
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:32 pm)Talk about softballs. Originally I thought that EREVs would be necessary because BEVs would need batteries that were too large, too heavy, and too expensive. After learning about how the customers in the mini-E study used their cars, looking at the battery choices the EV1 customers made, and researching about how much I and friends drive, I’ve come 180 degrees and concluded that BEVs will work just fine. Another would be the best way to displace oil. I first thought that electrification and then perhaps bio-fuels but friends have convinced me that natural gas is the best bet by far. And while we’re on natural gas, I initially thought shale gas problematic because of potential ground water contamination but after looking at the issues it’s clear this is more a political problem than a technical one.
Or take the GM bailout. I was adamantly in favor of the bailout because the consequences of not doing it would have been a catastrophe. That was right. However, I didn’t initially support the bankruptcy because I thought it would take too long. I was wrong on that.
I also thought that Toyota’s unintended acceleration problems would be a small bump. Oops.
That’s a few off the top of my head. But as a general matter I don’t see too many people rushing to admit they’ve been wrong, excepting of course nasaman and Rashiid. Pertinent to today’s topic, when GM announced the production levels I was very critical because the low production levels virtually dictated high costs per unit and therefore a high MSRP. At the time some disagreed, saying that that GM was merely being prudent and that a “slow as you go” approach was best. Well, guess what? The Volt has come in at a relatively high MSRP. So the question might be: How many of the people who supported the low production numbers are happy with the MSRP? One more or less dictates the other.
Your turn.
-1
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:32 pm)I read them all, and frankly, I don’t think that you missed much (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:39 pm)“That 40-mile range has to include you getting home, and staying home three to four hours to charge the thing,” Limbaugh said.
Well researched and factual as always.
+5
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:43 pm)You have nothing to fear about leasing the VOLT. I had predicted in the past that LEASING the VOLT might be the way to go, and as the initial pricing indicates, it will be.
I believe GM made a very wise decision to offer a 3 year lease:
1. They want to find consumers who really WANT to drive a VOLT and who will keep it for 3 years (at least) so GM can gain some real world experience.
2. GM wants to prevent, as much as possible, the recent phenomenon of private individuals and brokers buying up new models and turning around and flipping them on eBay. They do not want this to happen with the VOLT.
3. Each customer can tailor their lease to their own driving habits. The lease quoted appears to be for 12,000 miles per year. However, the annual miles can be adjusted upfront to any amount – typically up to about 33,000 miles per year on a 3 year lease (leasing companies do not like to write leases for more than 100,000 total miles).
4. Each customer will know what their lease end purchase option is on the day they sign their contract …. but they do not have to commit to buy it until the end of the term.
In the end, its a free country and each consumer can make their own decisions. But, IMHO, the introductory lease that GM is offering on the VOLT is a deal.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:53 pm)Thanks for this, Leo! Your opinions/advice as one of our two Chevy dealers here are greatly appreciated!!!
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:56 pm)God, I hope someone corrects him and he lets his listeners know that’s not the case. Probably won’t happen. Guess it’s not a big deal since most his listeners probably wouldn’t buy one anyways. Anyone who doesn’t think we should cut down every tree to make a buck is an “Environmental Wacko” in his book.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:56 pm)Hmmm….your #2 will automatically disqual you in the LEAF questionnaire. lol
But I have to argue on #3 though. As we all know the Volt will use only 50% of the 16KWh pack. That’s a given. The Catfish car on the other hand will use at the best 80% DOD. that’s 19200Wh (19.2KWh). Now let’s take the 40 mile scenario that GM sez most people drive at the most on a daily basis. In the Volt that 40 miles depletes you to 50% of the pack. Again we all know that right? This was engineered to “Short cycle” the bat pack thus giving longer cycle count.
Now for the LEAF’s batt pack. Usable is 19200Wh. Let’s take the same 40 mile range from the 100 miles total. That’s 40% used out of the LEAF’s batt pack. Guess what? That’s also a “Short Cycle” but on an even bigger batt pack and only 40% on the LEAF as opposed to 50% of the Volts batt pack.
That’s just an example of going 40 miles in either car. Weigh the differences and you will probably get the same life out of both packs. IMHO, being a battery nerd, the pack that gets “Shortest cycle” wins in my book. Sure the Volt has thermal mgmt, but at a co$t. LEAF has some thermal mgmt, forced air circ I think. Volt can deliver more power because the AC induction motors can take more power compared to the LEAFS AC ind motor. Therein lies another advantage of the LEAF’s pack….
By design, LEAF’s 24KWh pack needs to deliver 80KW’s (107hp) of power.
The LEAF’s pack needs to deliver less power from a larger pack.
By design,Volts 16KWh pack needs to deliver 111.84KW’s (150hp) of power.
The Volts pack needs to deliver higher power from the smaller pack.
Personally I have not felt any of my cells of LiFePO4 chem get warm at 3-8C discharge and 1C charge get warm. It’s pretty amazing these things can deliver the power when demanded.
/long boring post……..I know.
Jul 28th, 2010 (4:57 pm)========================
I voted that I will not buy or lease, as I can’t from my local dealer at this time. So yes, the poll was way too simplistic.
Here is what I don’t get:
If GM is trying to keep all the 2011 Volts close together in limited areas, then why allow people to fly in from all over the country to buy one and then drive it home. Doesn’t that defeat the purpose of the limited release area? Of the 8K units that will be produced as 2011 model year cars, I wonder how many will be purchased by people and removed from the artificially created sales zones? If it ends up to be 40% – 50% or more, which could very easily be possible, then why do it in the first place????
I called my local dealer to ask about service on a Volt purchased somewhere else. They had no information from GM about being an authorized service center for the Volt. So for those of you that think you will have no servicing issues, you may want to check with your local dealer before you drive home from CA, TX, NY, DC, CT, MI, or NJ in your new Volt. I just wonder how many dealerships will spend the significant amount of money now for training and the necessary tools to maybe service a few cars over the next few years until they can actually sell some……
JMHO
And in response to James, I am still pissed, but it is my nature to get it out of my system and move on. It is an Italian thing!!!!!!!!!
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:00 pm)I looked for another auto lease offer, again trying to answer if the Volt lease is particularly attractive. Honda suggests that its dealers offer this lease:http://automobiles.honda.com/current-offers-detail.aspx?ModelName=Civic%20Sedan&offerid=43854&modelid=FA1F3AEW
msrp $18,255, 36 month lease at $159 a month and $1400 down. The down payment is $280 more than a strict proportion would require compared to the Volt, so I’ll add $5 a month to the monthly payment to even things out, then
$164*41000/18255 = $368 a month.
The Volt’s lease price is $18 less than what Honda would charge for a 41k car.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:00 pm)Check my earlier posts, please. Control+f Tagamet
Be well,
Tagamet
+4
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:00 pm)Woooo hooo!
I’m getting a VOLT (or so I think)! I just talked to my local dealer and I’m #20 on their waiting list, which he said they began taking in September 2008. He says that their dealership was informed that they will receive an allotment of 16 Volts but believes that they will actually get about 25. So, if only four people ahead of me back out, I’ll have a Volt!
Let’s see what will actually happen.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:05 pm)If the Great Recession has taught us anything, it is this: Live within your means, and strive to be financially self-sufficient. The “coffeetime” of old would’ve probably snapped up a Volt as soon as one became available in my area, whereas the post-recession “coffeetime” is busy making extra payments towards the mortgage principle each month with the goal of paying it off by December, 2014. Best of luck to the Volt early-adopters, though, as they will be needed to both advance the technology while bringing down the cost.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:12 pm)Considering that the EV1 was leasing for $499 fourteen years ago the $350 per month lease sounds really reasonable. Will be interesting to see how many cars will be leased and how many will be sold. I’m sure the first year is gone. I’m waiting for the MPV5.
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:12 pm)Ok, so maybe a couple of his listeners might buy a Volt. Big Rush fan huh Tag? Does he still use the term “Environmental Wackos?” If he is against a tax credit for an electric car I sure hope he’s against subsidizing oil and coal. He probably is. I’ve recently decided I’m not going to listen to anyone on TV or radio. They all make money after a while saying the things their fan base generally wants to hear. I’m afraid if I listen to them by the time I’m 65 I’ll be a real grump.
You seem pretty happy though Tag, maybe you should stop listening now.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:13 pm)The Tesla S is actually $16k more than the Volt for the 160 mile battery and no options. I called and talked to them and a 300mile batt and loaded up S will be in the $90k range.
They are talking about having them out in 2012 but they might not last that long.
Beautiful car
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:19 pm)Make sense. The lease is the way to go with the Volt. That leaves your options open after the first 3 years. $350.00/month is a deal! The Leaf is leasing for almost exactly the same!
GO EV!!!
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:24 pm)Too rich for my blood. I’m outta the game. The lease doesn’t work either. They don’t say how much a mile for over 12K, but I drive about 24K/year, which would probably come close to doubling the lease cost. Maybe later.
+3
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:26 pm)LauraM – I don’t think lease customers are getting a different price, they are simply getting a different financial equation on when they spend their money.
PURCHASE:
Pay $41,000 upfront, apply for $7,500 tax credit from government next April. Own the car.
LEASE:
GM sells the VOLT to the Leasing company (assume GMAC/Ally Bank) for $41,000. Customer pays $2,500 at signing. Leasing company applies to government for $7,500 tax credit; but applies it upfront and considers it cash down on the lease. (consumer gets immediate benefit and does not have to wait). Result is $10,000 down on a $41,000 vehicle; initial cap cost is $31,000. Customer pays $350 per month for 36 months (equals $12,600). GM has not announced the exact residual value, but assuming the lease will have some interest factor, you can figure out the number. I suspect the residual will be somewhere around $25,000, but it will definitely be known before the customer signs.
No one has to make the purchase vs. lease decision up until the day they take delivery. In the end, its all about when you want to part with your money – and how much risk you are willing to absorb. By leasing the VOLT, GM is willing to take on the risk the future risk.
Worst case scenario, a lease customer is out the $2,500 they put down, plus around $12,600 in payments…. or $15,000 over 3 years for the privilidge of driving one of the coolest pieces of rolling technology to come out in our lifetime. IMHO a pretty sweet deal.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:28 pm)Although the msrp is high @ $41,000 the lease is great @ $11.50/day or $350.00/month!
If you can get one, who wouldn’t want a Volt for that cost??
GO EV!!!
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:29 pm)24,000 miles per year will change the monthly payment by about $100-110. So it should be about $450 +/- per month.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:29 pm)Thanks LeoK for your info!
As a dealer, could you (and CorvetteGuy?) also comment on my leasing questions above (#221), about whether you (as a dealer) are motivated one oway or the other re purchase vs lease?
It’ll make wading through the bickering here worth it
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:32 pm)No charge if you buy at the end instead of returning the car. If the interest rate is fair and the Volt lives up to the estimated value at the end(residual) you will be ok.
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:34 pm)CONGRATULATIONS!
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:38 pm)Although I totally agree with you, the dealers are saying that the actual monthly cost will be closer to $450 (I think).
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:39 pm)LeoK
Worst case scenario, a lease customer is out the $2,500 they put down, plus around $12,600 in payments…. or $15,000 over 3 years for the privilidge of driving one of the coolest pieces of rolling technology to come out in our lifetime. IMHO a pretty sweet deal.
Leo–I think they said a security dep is included so if it is $500 than only $2k goes to cap cost reduction and you will get the $500 back at lease end. but I agree it is a good deal
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:41 pm)One question about leasing. Can the dealers still jack up the price beyond MSRP if you are doing a lease? I would think that would be a great way for GM to say “No way, the lease for this car is $X, take it or leave it greedy dealer! Oh and stop trying to screw our customers, or we’ll revoke your Volt rights.”
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:43 pm)Yeah, you have to amortize Tax, Lisc, Doc, Destination fees and finance rate/charges. And don’t forget dealers will mark up. I think CorvetteGuy said $2,000.00 for new buyers and $1,000.00 for returning customers?
Jul 28th, 2010 (5:47 pm)If you add some options as I will Leather-1395/wheels-595/and back up cam-695 the price will be about $2700 higher and you can ball park additions at about $30 per thousand on the lease. than add the cost of licience and sales tax. I am looking at about $480 or close I think. This price is at MSRP that my dealer has commited to sell.
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:04 pm)If there is demand, dealer fees will make their appearance.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:09 pm)Naw, I’m pretty eclectic in my listening/viewing/reading. EVERYTHING is available on podcasts, from poker to NPR. Audio-books are great too (given my poor vision). Just finished a 14 hour one about quantum physics! (lol. true story). And yes, Rush is pretty much anti-govt anything, so I do like how he spouts personal responsibility and the govt minimizing it’s footprint.
While working around the house today I listened to a lot of different channels and the single thing that they ALL had in common was how expensive the Volt was. Left or right, didn’t matter. To use a phrase voiced earlier today, not one of them “got it”. Sigh. I guess the pioneers take all the arrows….
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:19 pm)Yep. That was the deal I worked out with the Owner and the General Manager. We have deposits on all of our allocation and all were new customers. So all are getting it for just a little bit over sticker. I hope GM pumps up production faster. I would like to deliver a lot more than 6 VOLTs in the next 17 months. I know the Cruze will keep us busy, but not as excited.
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:28 pm)Youdamaaan dude!
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:32 pm)If I were the person getting a VOLT, I would buy it because I keep cars for years and years. But in this case, the VOLT is going to be for my wife. She has a nice upper management job and LOVES to lease her car. She does not drive over 10,000 miles per year, so she can get a nice car with very little out of pocket.
I do not see leasing as a bad thing at all. During the past 2 years, lease rates on GM cars have not been that great because of LOW residual values. But I am told that banks ‘like GM’ again and the plans are getting better.
The VOLT Lease must have a really HIGH residual value to get such a small payment. As long as those seats are cozy and comfortable, my wife will be all over it for $350-$450 per month.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:39 pm)Sooner or later I will walk into a General Motors showroom and buy a Voltec powered car.
Hopefully a car as beautiful as the Converj will be there for a test drive and I will buy it.
I don’t mind the $41k sticker for the Volt. Didn’t a somebody withing GM already say the car will be priced to market? The price is inflated, no doubt, but this time I’d rather see the added $ go to GM rather than a dealer that adds a “market adjustment”. The process of lowering the price will become obvious and inevitable.
So, all of you gracious first Volt owners, enjoy the drive! Share the words of the objective critics that you will be.
Let’s all be a part of passing the baton from gas to electric.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:43 pm)Narrow is bad. Got it.
But try focused instead, and in the same sense that an incubator starts up an incipient business proposition before it is self sustaining. New technology is not self sustaining. New cars are insanely capital intensive. Put the two together for a focused effort, and who would be crazy enough to underwrite it – scene fades to tapping Uncle Sam on the shoulder, and Rush Limbaugh squirming in his well padded chair.
The less expensive alternative? Skip the subsidies and 15 years from now – importing millions of reasonably priced alternative fuel vehicles from China, Japan and Korea.
New technologies have to start somewhere. For something like cell phones that create utility where none existed before, a few will pay for that utility.
And what about a technology that competes with entrenched alternatives that benefit from one hundred years of refinement. Who would be dumb enough to make that investment? Only some one who would gain from the long term structural changes, leading to a larger tax base, and has the time frame to shoulder the costs past a quarter to quarter outlook – a non profit organization? Aha, your dumb old, not smart enough to make a profit, wasteful old spendthrift Uncle Sam.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:46 pm)The seat, much like the ride, is softer than a butterfly’s kiss. Pretty close to a “womb-like” feel. It just fits.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:46 pm)I would definitely Lease a Converj…… Oh, BABY!!!!!!
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:50 pm)Has anyone bothered to “correct” him on the other subjects he thinks he knows about…
Oh, I forgot … Rush states he is an entertainer…. so apparently none of what he says counts anyway.
Jul 28th, 2010 (6:50 pm)lol……..man, I bet you can tell one hellofa ghost story at a campfire.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:03 pm)Seems like it’s more or less a given that PHEVs are harder on their packs than BEVs are on theirs for the exact reasons you’ve laid out.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:17 pm)TMI. Maybe you could stop with, “very comfortable seats that just fit.” Don’t need a word picture.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:17 pm)Off-topic, but I am mulling over the larger money questions that GM faces with this car. I actually don’t doubt that 30k is manufacturing cost, if not more. Since GM is only recouping about 15k at lease signing, if the market residual is less than 15k at lease term they lose money on every car. That works out be a 37% residual for the consumer at msrp pricing.
In 3 years, how much will a consumer pay for this used car with unknown pack longevity ? How much will pack replacement cost, and how much will installation cost ?
I really do not think that GM has much room for teething problems, or negative consumer reaction, or battery pack durability less than expected.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:21 pm)That’d be the same Uncle that’s been picking winners like hydrogen? Ah, I get it.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:28 pm)I just came home from Walley Edgar Chevrolet (Lake Orion, MI) with my order number. I am so excited!
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:30 pm)Very close to our mother were we? (g)
Sounds like one of those “edible” complexes…
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:33 pm)Depleting 8 kwh of a 16 kwh pack (the volt) is 50% DOD; 8 kwh of the Leaf’s 24 kwh pack is 33% DOD, not the 40% you calculated.
I entirely agree with your comment that high amp draws, to the extent that they heat the pack up, are a major factor in overall pack life.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:40 pm)I guess we’ll just have to Stay Tuned… No, seriously, I think about the same unknowns, but that’s exactly what they are – until the calendar has spun a few times. I *suspect* that resale value will be GREAT, simply because of the fun factor of driving the thing. The secret will be well-known by then. JMO.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:45 pm)Not that I’m a Rush fan…but someone may need to tell everyone to ignore the late Sonny Bono, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Jesse Ventura, Al Franken, late Ronald Reagan, and every other celebrity that have been enlightened by fame to speak on governmental policy.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:47 pm)CONGRATULATIONS!
(Boy, that’s getting harder already)(sigh)
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:49 pm)Ready. Now how do I get one of these to Colorado from a NY dealer, or anywhere selling one of these. This could have been lucky for me. Colorado adds another $4,000 tax credit. Wish GM launched here.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED. Dear Middle-East Oil addiction pushers, we’re taking our country back.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:50 pm)Agreed. Just have to sort through the bull, and consider the source(s). (You don’t still hear the dead ones do you?)
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:50 pm)I do try to be open minded! It’s just that my time time is limited, and I prefer to read my news rather than listen to the radio. I’m assuming by “government sponsored news,” you mean NPR? I don’t listen to that either. My idea of “the other side” is the editorial section of the wall street journal.
As far as Rush Limbaugh–I’ve heard a lot about him. And none of what I’ve heard makes me interested in hearing what he has to say.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:54 pm)I would also prefer that. Actually, a straightforward consumption tax on all petroleum would be even better. Or even just reducing oil subsidies. But, since that’s politically impossible, we have to subsidize the competition if we ever hope to reduce our oil dependency.
Did you read Ken’s post yesterday about how he preferred a BMW? We’ve got to change the economic calculus is we plan to reach the mainstream consumer. IT will change on its own. But if we wait for that,we’re going to be in major trouble.
Jul 28th, 2010 (7:57 pm)Oh, one other comment about comparing the Volt and Leaf batteries: If I am not mistaken the Volt is LiFePo4, while the Volt uses LiManganese. We have not even touched on packaging or BMS differences. Any conclusions one might draw about how these competing packs will survive long term based on one engineering characteristic or another is likely to be way off.
Welcome to the bleeding edge folks.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:05 pm)I’ve been to Africa, which is a lot poorer than China. And, yes, I feel sorry for people there. But, you know what? My major feeling when I left is that I don’t ever want that to happen to the country I live in. And if we continue on the path we’re going–that’s our future.
Right now, the US isn’t getting richer more slowly. We’re getting poorer. We’ve lost whole sectors of potential economic activity that’s not coming back. The median real salary in the US is actually lower than it was 30 years ago. And, IMHO, that’s a direct result of our numerous lost industries.
Right now we’re paying for imports with dollars. But what happens when the dollar isn’t worth anything? At some point, you have to pay for imports with exports. And right now, our biggest export is debt. That is not sustainable. We also export a lot of waste paper. Do you think that’s enough to maintain anything remotely resembling our current standard of living?
Absolutely, the US consumer needs to consume less. Starting with energy. But that takes substantial investment in energy efficient infrastructure. And we don’t have the money to do that. So then what do we do?
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:14 pm)Did I mention he’s not too bright. Who was it that said Democracy results in the worst form of government on the planet, except for the other forms.
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:16 pm)… and what’s wrong with that ?
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:17 pm)“Prove the technology first” is the spin I’ve been hearing since the price reveal. That supposedly was GM’s goal all along, with cost-reduction a priority later. Since when? That doesn’t make sense anyway. Consumers naturally expect next models to offer increased performance at a similar same price.
The size of the battery-pack could easily have been reduced to lower price quite a bit without affecting the proof. In fact, use of the engine more frequently would do a better job demonstrating the integration of multiple electricity sources.
Seeing capacity increase over time without much of a price change is a well-proven approach in the computer industry. Why not with a plug-in vehicle too?
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:18 pm)Lyle commands you to buy new Nike running shoes and jogging clothes, the comet is coming soon to take the flock away to a land where car 2.0 abounds. Be ready.
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:19 pm)I like the Volt concept. Maybe you don’t. But I have the right to my preferences.
Agreed.
And there’s a reason Toyota’s didn’t sell in the US in the 60s. It didn’t stop Japan from closing off their market. Toyota never would have gotten off the ground if Japan hadn’t done that. And, you know what? It worked. And I think we should emulate their example.
And, by the way, if you think the only reason American cars don’t sell in Asia, and there’s no protectionism in those markets, please explain to me why the Japanese auto manufacturers have sell 0 cars in South Korea? And Hyundai sells no cars in Japan?
Contrary to popular opinion, we can’t always innovate our way out of our problems. There aren’t always going to be “new” industries that can replace the old ones. And given the loss effects of the loss of things like battery production, which led to a loss of comparative advantage in electric cars, I think we should hold on to as many “old” industries as possible. (the US used to be a world leading producer of battery technology. But we lost it with consumer electronics). Besides, at this point, any industry is better than no industry.
I would love to buy a high tech good made in America. But that’s usually not an option anymore…
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:19 pm)I think it’s good your worried, but don’t worry too much. Like with everything there is a tipping point. We have some huge advantages here in America. One is a transparent economy, another is 50 states which are unified economies. The dollar will never be worth nothing, look how it’s gone up vs the Euro lately. My father who is a very smart man really believes there will be deflation soon.
The manufacturing jobs will come back to America as soon as the Chinese have enough money to buy more of our exports. They’ll love American stuff when they can afford it.
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:27 pm)Are you saying that the Volt can’t survive on it’s own merits??? I have to disagree. But I’ve been wrong about most things so far….
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:29 pm)Amen to that
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:35 pm)There way more to that story than the Germans just telling them to “stuff it.” They were perfectly happy to subsidize a sale of Opel to the Russians/Canadians. But when GM decided to hold on to Opel, then it became the US taxpayer’s responsibility. GM also asked the South Koreans. They didn’t get very far there either.
The point being that the only government that thought it necessary to help GM was the US government. They asked a lot of governments. But no one else said yes. (Except for the Canadian government.) Because, at the end of the day, GM is an American company.
That’s a very idealistic point of view. And maybe someday we’ll have a world where people feel that way, and we all get along. But in the meantime, have you looked at Chinese immigration policy lately? Or Japan’s? Or South Korea’s. Or Singapore’s? Unless you have something specific to offer them in the way of economic development, good luck becoming a citizen of any of those countries. Or even being allowed to live there on a long term basis. Unless of course, you’re ethnically Asian. Then you can probably return to the country of your ethnicity.
Right now, my economic future, and those of my children depend on the United States. So I care what happens to the country that I live in.
By the way, the US trade deficit is not particularly good for anyone. Including Asian countries. Right now the balance of trade is way out balance. It can’t be sustained indefinitely. And the longer it goes on, the worse it gets. And when it corrects–it’s going to be brutal. And the correction will probably be just as bad for the trade surplus nations as the trade deficit nations. Witness the effect of Smoot Hartley on the, then, trade surplus United States.
Or look at it this way, when the subprime bubble collapsed, the banks that made the loans suffered right along with the subprime borrowers. Think China and Japan = the banks, and the US consumer = the subprime borrower.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:39 pm)Well, same old, same old. Is he still relevant ?
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:40 pm)Still Lurking, and pondering the lease…
Just can’t figure how I would drive ONLY 12,000 miles a year.
A couple of months in the Miata… A Couple months in the Colorado… Long trips in the Prius…
Bye Bye HHR, Hello Volt.
Now to talk to my wife…
/Oh My
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:45 pm)Actually, the oil market is fairly competitive. The OPEC cartel has broken down considerably and exporting countries cover enough different regions and politics that theyr’e not likely to work together for political goals. Most of the member states cheat on their quotas (in fact, I never hear talk of them, any more), so they’re exploring as fast as they can and new countries are entering the market. The price of oil is up because new oil is fairly hard to find and new fields have high production costs. This does work to the advantage of countries with large, developed reserves and low production costs (e.g., Iraq) but they still can’t control price (although they can benefit from almost any price that the market settles to).
A carbon tax would be my first preference for achieving my goals of fewer CO2 emissions and reduced reliance on foreign oil. Still, those aren’t LauraM’s goals. What are LauraM’s policy goals? She mentioned this car and “industrial policy.” That’s one quite specific goal and one policy goal that is a policy. I’ll take the latter to mean something like “healthy industrial infrastructure” (LauraM can tell us if that’s way off base).
Further, in my earlier comment, I wrote “a policy goal of a single consumer vehicle…,” not “your one policy goal…”
Moreover, there’s no obvious connection between the Volt and a policy goal of “healthy industrial infrastructure.” The Volt could be produced by a country with a “healthy industrial infrastructure” but it’s not a necessary end result nor is it a necessary input or requirement.
As I noted, incentives that helped shepherd GM to the Volt actually do not do as much as they should to promote a “healthy industrial infrastructure” because the key component, the important component, the only component that really, really, really matters is the cell. And we’re buying them from the ROK. The $7500 turns out to be an incentive to the ROK. I’m sure they’re very grateful.
There are quite a few people encouraging the Volt (and other xEV technologies) and, by their comments, for a variety of different reasons. Do their various policy goals really converge on this expensive and heavily subsidized vehicle that’s helping the ROK gain a competitive edge in battery manufacture or would our different policy goals be better served by other policies?
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:46 pm)Survive? Sure. But the only people who will buy it are ideologically motivated. The straightforward economic calculus will probably favor the ICE engine for a very long time. Mainly because gasoline is heavily subsidized.
If we want to make a meaningful difference in our oil consumption, we have to reach the mainstream consumer. And, unfortunately, the vast majority of people could care less about things which don’t affect them directly. So the direct economic calculus has to change.
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:51 pm)…that governs least, governs best.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:52 pm)What would the insurance be on a Volt compared to an HHR?
I know the registration fee’s would be brutal here in NH.
I somehow suspect that the low lease is introductory, as soon as the Volt is actually available it will go up. Then just possibly MSRP will go down slightly. I know that would be unusual, but it would be good publicity as production ramps up.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (8:58 pm)Gee Pseudo Your so smart ,but you missed something ,something did not get through your skull. As long as the US Govt continues to allow companies to import their foreign made goods into the US without tariffs ,or any other maze of import restrictions such as japan is so expert at
then jobs will vanish as no one can survive on chinese wages in this country,so just maybe the fix is in the trade policy and not all of us working for $1 a day,to compete with chinas labor rate, then wages would stay higher and we could afford $41000, and dont tell me other countries will retaliate cuz they already restrict US imports and get away with it.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:02 pm)Probably similar. The Volt gains on top speed at 104 mph. And gives a little on weight. Hope insurance companies don’t get silly and add a quiet penalty.
Most of us here will eventually being driving electric. What happens in the early days is important.
=D-Volt
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:02 pm)We’ll just have to differ then, because I’ve driven it and think that it will win hearts and wallets.
You know that I have far less faith in politicians (individually or collectively, than you do – of any political stripe. “Economic calculus” rolls off the tongue sweetly, but simply means control. BY *those* Yahoos? Sorry, but the thought makes me shutter. Just to “simple things up”, when it comes down to it we’ve got our votes (and opinions).
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:07 pm)In spite of those “advantages” we’ve been losing industries at a scary pace. And economies of scale favor the current producer if you’re not willing to make the initial investment of paying higher prices while your own producers attain the necessary scale. And so far, the US hasn’t shown any such willingness.
We currently have 17% real unemployment. (That’s the U6 number that takes into account discouraged workers, and the underemployed). That’s not exactly the sign of a healthy economy.
As far as the dollar vs. the euro. That’s about an issue specific to the euro. Europe has a unified monetary policy, but not fiscal policy. And that might not be sustainable. And right now, the dollar is the only alternative. That won’t last forever.
We may have deflation in the short term. We may certainly have it for a very long time with regard to property values. But if the dollar loses reserve currency status, we will have to pay a lot more for imports.
We had a $750 billion dollar trade deficit before the financial crisis hit. We are on track for a $400 billion dollar trade deficit with 17% U6 unemployment. How can the dollar retain any value under those circumstances? Seriously, talk to someone who’s not an American. This is well known in Asia.
And why should they buy things made in America as opposed to things made in China? The only way American wages could fall below those in China anytime soon if we had a complete economic collapse. GDP per capita in China is less than a tenth that of the United States. But even if they did, economies of scale would still make China the lower cost higher quality producer. And, even if they didn’t, do you really think the Chinese government would abandon their chinese content requirement? Becuase I don’t.
As far as the Chinese buying American products if they become wealthy–Europe is really good at producing luxury goods. The US not so much.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:08 pm)John,
We went over this in the past. Apparently you are not old enough to have purchased computers or even looked at computers in the 70’s and 80’s and you cannot remember the last discussion about this. You are thinking about the mature and standardized commodity PC business of the late 90s on where the price has already fallen and now they continue to produce better computers at about the same price.
When computers started out, they were not a commodity and they were over 2 orders of magnitude (> 100 times) higher in price.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:11 pm)He has a bigger audience than David Letterman as far as I know, and everyone went nuts here when HE received BS information. Whether relevant or not, people in political circles hear what he says even if only by second hand. I don’t think the VOLT needs a lot of bad press. I’m trying to sell the dang things.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:16 pm)For the record, I have numerous policy goals. Mainly, I want a competitive sustainable economy with stable standard of living. (Growing would be even better.) I would like a strong middle class. I want a budget surplus that’s starting to pay off rather than increase the national debt. I would like a functional high speed rail. I would also like to eliminate carbon emissions and eliminate our dependence on oil. And, as long as I’m dreaming, I would like to eliminate any and all forms of air and water pollution. A more educated populace would also be nice.
Away from dreamland, I would like our government to form an industrial policy meant to foster manufacturing in the United States. And increase our economic competitiveness. I would also like to reduce carbon emissions (along with other forms of pollution) and oil use. With the goal of eventually eliminating both entirely if possible.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:16 pm)I haven’t been to Africa. I have been to China a couple of times. I don’t want to improve their finances with more tourist dollars but I wish more Americans would go there and take a good look around. Travel is broadening, as they say.
Africa and the US are different situations. They never got up, whereas we MAY go down. The PIGS might be the more applicable cautionary tale (Portugal Italy Greece Spain). There are still lots of differences but there are some striking similarities.
we’re not going to have protectionism… it’s more troublesome than helpful. But we can be healthy. I’d advise against buying domestic products that are overpriced and/or noncompetitive. You can take your money and invest it in forward directions.
BMW and Mercedes sell cars in Japan. The Cavalier was introduced to Japan for sale but no one bought it because it was inferior to other, similarly priced Japanese cars and for the interior room it provided the exterior was too large.
Do you own a Toyota? Honda? If not, you should go drive a few. Not new ones, try out some that are 10 years old and compare them to a 10 year old Malibu or Neon.
I do have a domestic preference but I switched to Toyota 10 years ago, a real Japanese Toyota and I don’t feel the least bit guilty about it. In fact, I’m glad I did… I’ve got more money in my pocket as a result and I’ve been able to invest my savings in American companies that I think will do well going forward. If I were buying a car today, I’d be rather happy to be able to support American jobs by buying another Toyota, as most of them are made here now (including fabricating engines and transmissions). Unfortunately, the things run so well that there’s no real reason to buy a new car.
I guess I’ll just keep saving and investing.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:23 pm)You’ll have no problem selling a dozen 2011 Volts at MSRP. What happens in the media will influence sales of the 2012 model. Early test drives by car magazine representives have been positive. The period between the December 2010 delivery of Volts. Through to August 2011 is huge in regard to the future success of GM Voltec models. Wish GM engineering the best with this.
=D-Volt
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:29 pm)That’s how I know you’re avoiding the actual topic of discussion!
The plug-in model Prius offers hard battery-only acceleration using just a 5 kWh battery. Why in the world did Volt absolutely have to use a 16 kWh battery? Why not just 8 instead? If the MPG in CS really is 50, it simply makes no sense not to have offered a more affordable initial configuration.
Of course, that doesn’t matter anymore. This Volt simply isn’t competitive (potential to be a mainstream vehicle) at such a high price. It’s the next choice that we want to know about now. So… do we discuss that next generation configuration or just go on cheering for what limited markets will have access to over the next few years?
What is the next move for enthusiasts, especially those who have now chosen to delay their purchase?
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:30 pm)Well, I hope you’re right. But 41k is a lot of money…Even with the tax credit, the mainstream consumer can’t afford it…without the tax credit, I think they’d be in trouble.
I don’t have very much faith in our politicians either. But, contrary to popular opinion, it doesn’t require that much intelligence to identify the potential future industries worth investing in. And just because some investments don’t work out, doesn’t mean you should never invest. Look at Singapore and Taiwan. Not all the industries they targeted worked out. There were investment losses. But enough did. And they now have a much higher standard of living than they did 30 years ago. Ditto for South Korea and China. The US? Not so much.
Besides, the policy action I have in mind here is pretty straightforward. A gas tax. It’s hard to see how they could mess that one up.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:45 pm)I’d suggest that we all chip in for a contract on you. A *distant* second best would be an IP block. Just a thought, but you are that annoying.
YBFF
Tag’s Cat
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:47 pm)The fellas out in Pelican Bay State Prison thank you sincerely, and are glad your thoughts have their best interests at heart.
But on a serious note, I’d guess from all the failures we’ve seen, governing well is really hard, or maybe they are all collectively really stupid people, I’m not gonna try to pretend to have the answers.
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:54 pm)If the Volt CS MPG turns out to be 50. I’ll be sorry I forfeited my #3 spot with the local dealership. It’s surprising to see several $5000 deposits being placed on an unknown CS MPG.
The dealer said the Volt would be delivered in late December 2010. As it stands now, will keep my current vehicle until an electric crossover is available. Just can’t sacrifice the practicality of ground clearance. I know you love your Prius. Not for me, even with a plug, and even at under $30k.
=D-Volt
-3
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:55 pm)Heh – to all Kook-Aid drinker here:
WE TOLD YOU SO !!!
We told you that GM is playing games – that either it wants to milk its client base or more likely they don’t know what they are doing. Water cooling a battery pack of essentially 8 KWh when some battery chemistries requires no cooling? Running the thing at 50% DoD when they would NEVER qualify for CARB anyways?
Now the next shoe is going to drop: It turns out that the clutch planetary gear in the transmission which GM confessed to – that connects the wheels to the internal combustion engine – will be closed upon software control, when necessary (which is probably most of the time).
This is what you get for oversizing the ICE and the vehicle, and undersizing the traction motor and battery.
You get a parallel machine. GM mechano-gearheads and beancounters rule!
How is the Kool-Aid, may I ask – you still drinking while we drive our Leafs at $25K? heh
Jul 28th, 2010 (9:57 pm)Uncontested.
Night all, work tomorrow.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:13 pm)I would love to go to China. I was planning on a trip in October, but the dates didn’t work with my job. So I’m going to Thailand instead.
I agree that travel is educational. And there are things that you can’t learn any other way. As far as improving their finances–honestly, at this point, i think their supply of dollars is more of a headache to them than blessing. It’s regrettable, but worth it, IMHO. Besides, it’s not like I’m helping their tourism industry become more competitive with America’s by doing so. Tourism is, for the most part, based on fixed assets. (Although restitution could damage our tourism industry. But that’s another subject entirely.)
Or maybe I just tell myself that because tourism is one thing I’m not prepared to give up…
The PIGs were never as economically dominant as we are. And they don’t have nearly as much debt. The IMF could bail them out. The US is well beyond the IMF’s resources. Regardless of potential austerity measures. Besides, none of them are anywhere near as dependent on cheap energy as we are.
I think Britain post WWII is a much better model. Or even the Russia post the collapse of the Soviet Union. But unlike Britain or Russia, we don’t have any untapped oil reserves that we can tap…well, we do. But not nearly on the same scale relative to our current GDP. Also, our debt is much larger. And there’s no one around to offer us a Marshall plan.
And GM sells Corvettes. Luxury cars can compete. Regular cars can’t. Or why the low market share for Hyundai? Or are they also low quality?
I don’t own a car. But I have a friend with a 10 year old Toyota. Can’t say I’m too impressed. It always seems to be in the shop.
And by the way, as far as reliability, those recalls aren’t just about one thing. QC has clearly slipped in the past ten years. Even their current CEO said as much.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:16 pm)I wouldn’t mind recommending a plugin Prius…if it had a larger battery, was designed, manufactured and assembled in the US and wasn’t so ugly.
If you’re going to go to the effort of plugging it in, make it count for something. Otherwise it’s a waste of what little battery it has. Besides, nobody plugs them in anyway. Go get a regular Prius, save youself some up front money and stay in your gas pump circle.
7 miles of EV range…useless.
Better off making it work as a supplement to the hybrid system, not as a quickly exhausted around town EV.
With the price of the Volt reflecting the higher end vehicle that it is, not the economy end of the scale that the Prius represents, the Volt is a significant step up from any hybrid on the road today.
If GM gets a little more creative and puts out a decent Buick EREV, never mind a Caddy, it will easily outclass the Lexus lineup.
But to Toyota’s credit, Lexus actually has a lineup,
with suddenly larger rear view mirrors.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:16 pm)Amen.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:27 pm)I forgot to add–”protectionism” certainly worked for the US in the period between 1850-1929. As far as it being more troublesome than helpful–tell that to Japan. Or South Korea. Or Singapore. Or Taiwan. Or China. Or India. Or even Finland. Or do you think they were better off as agricultural economies?
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:36 pm)You’re completely neglecting the fact that the Volt’s effective gas mileage is on the order of 245 mpg. It goes a long ways toward weaning us from the gas teat, not as good as an EV, I’ll grant you, but it also solves the range-anxiety drawback of the EV, which as I’ve pointed out, is real. You can hide your head in the sand about range-anxiety, but it does not make it go away. It’s real. A pure EV is bound to be significantly more trouble to depend upon than either an EREV or an ICE car.
If we were to save our gas use for when we go on trips, as we would if we drove a Volt, we wouldn’t be having a problem with petroleum supply, IMO.
What I resent from you Leaf-fanboy-Volt-naysayers is the lie you tell at least by implication that driving a Volt is ecologically equivalent to driving a V-8 Suburban. Go back to the Leaf site if that’s all you have to offer. If you really want green credentials to wave, show us a copy of your bus/subway pass. When you zipped by silently in your Leaf I did notice the carbon footprint you left.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:39 pm)That America was different. For one thing, the West hadn’t been settled, MOST people lived MUCH closer to the land and we had regular and severe recessions/depressions/bank crises.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:44 pm)Ahhhhahahah hahahhaha hah.
CaptJack taught me to laugh like that. After the politicians increased their benefits dramatically and threatened to reduce his and California workers salaries to minimum wage.
Jul 28th, 2010 (10:55 pm)The major reason it improved our standard of living is because we didn’t have a manufacturing base. The difference between now and then is that we had one, and lost it. (Or are losing what we have left of one.) So the same methods we used to acquire one in the first place seem to be in order.
As far as regular recessions/depressions/bank crises–what exactly do we have now? And how much longer do you think we can maintain this degree of leverage?
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:12 pm)Thanks for the information.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:17 pm)Thanks for the information. All os the people that replied have helped.
All cars will depreciate … you are right.
One could also make the case today about real estate housing. As long as the market is unstable it appears renting ( a form of leasing ??) is also the better option.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:19 pm)I get so tired of hearing about our debt.. Sure it’s huge, sure it’s a problem. But the U.K., Japan, France theirs are huge. Japans is 3 times their GDP.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:32 pm)I get angry every time I think of the stupidity that led to the massive asset bubble that led to major recession requiring the massive debt to avoid economic collapse. And anybody who thinks the elephant in the room in the form the hundred-trillion dollar unregulated derivatives market has been fixed is living under a rock.
+1
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:34 pm)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
Look at this chart of external debt per country and the percentage of it to GDP
We’re lookin’ pretty damn good. And we debt owed to us as well at higher interest rates..
The only big concerns are the social programs but every developed country has those problems.
And I was a republican growing up but now I realize if republicans had their way California would probably not exist because hoover damn would have never been built and we’d have no interstates.
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:47 pm)Definitely in the right price range for a luxury car, which is what the volt seems to be. When you own a second car to go with the leaf one needs to be aware of the double costs of owning two cars such as years of double insurance costs and repairs, etc.
+2
Jul 28th, 2010 (11:51 pm)Forget debt to gdp for the moment. With regard to a potential IMF (or any) bailout or rescue, what matters isn’t the debt to gdp. What matters is the size of the debt. And the US government’s total debt is over 13 trillion. The IMF would be overwhelmed by any US debt crises. Especially if they couldn’t turn to the US for funding. That’s the problem.
As far as the republicans are concerned, their record on fiscal prudence is laughable. They like to talk about it. But they never actually practice it when they’re in power.
Jul 29th, 2010 (12:11 am)Three million autos were sold in the first 6months of this year in the US. This was considered a bad 6 months for sales.
If the poll holds true for the public at large, (15%), then half a million Volts would have been sold in the first six months.
But this poll was not scientific because most folks on this site are car enthusiasts and that would probably skew the sales results. With all the volt hype hardly anyone I know has heard of the Volt. Still 15% or something close to it is a very good percentage.
Maybe the bad sales recorded so far this year means everybody is holding off their new car purchases to buy a Volt, just kidding. But pent-up demand is building nonetheless for new cars that are inexpensive to operate and Volt sales will benefit form this.
Gas prices have tripled in the past 10 years, if that happens again in the next ten years, gas prices will have to be factored in somehow.
Jul 29th, 2010 (12:26 am)Oil spill today in Michigan…
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Pipeline-spills-oil-into-Michigan-Kalamazoo-River/ss/events/ts/072810kalamazoospill
=D-Volt
+1
Jul 29th, 2010 (12:26 am)Obviously, anything could change between now and when it’s actually available in central Ohio, but the lease looks fairly attractive, especially if you are one who will make a large savings on fuel. I would not, because I drive a Honda Civic Hybrid. The range-extending mileage is so much worse that in my weekend trips I will use only slightly less in the Volt, because of subtracting 40 miles from the trip. The 9-gallon tank vs. my 12-gallon means nothing except on long trips, but AS MUCH AS I LOVE THIS TECHNOLOGY, it is so hard to justify purchasing a new car already, when my Civic is only three years old. The best way to save energy is to use a car for a LONG time. And I’ve got a great car. Let’s see if the demand is pushed and production numbers shoot way up and LEAF gets swept under the rug, and then Gen II will be incredible, affordable, profitable, and flex-fuel capable!
-2
Jul 29th, 2010 (12:45 am)The US will never need a bailout. Forget that idea
Jul 29th, 2010 (12:49 am)My story is similar. For years now I have my car use down to once a week, but about 200 miles a trip when I do drive. I use about 3.5 gallons of petrol a trip. A Volt would use 8 kwh of (domestic) fossil fuel costing $1, and then if CS is 35 mpg, another 4.85 gallons of petrol costing $13.10.
My wife uses the car during the week and consumes another two gallons a week or thereabouts.
Jul 29th, 2010 (1:23 am)The party faithful certainly have taken notice. That would be why Arlen Specter, Charlie Crist and Bob Bennet are all not Republican Senate nominees this fall.
Jul 29th, 2010 (2:22 am)Lease is a non-starter for me at 12,000 miles per year. I drive at least twice that. Only way for me to make out on any car is to pay cash and drive it into the ground. $41k cash plus $2250 in sales tax (5.5% where I live) is also a non-starter. The engineer in me won’t pay for technology where there is no hope of recovering the investment over the expected useful life. That the purchase price would eat up all of the potential fuel savings plus the $7500 govt rebate is stunning. I have to define “useful life” as 100,000 miles in this case. While I would expect most components of the car to last much longer, I have never heard anyone from GM say anything about the battery pack life other than it is guaranteed to last for the warranty period. Beyond that, life of the pack and its replacement cost are huge unknowns. What is certain is that the pack WILL have to be replaced eventually and it WILL be very expensive. I just paid my GM dealer $400 to replace a turn signal switch in my Lumina, so extrapolate that out to a Volt battery pack.
Jul 29th, 2010 (5:33 am)That’s awful. Thanks for posting it. Was here discussing politics and a smidgen of Volt and missed any spill announcement.
SO sad.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Jul 29th, 2010 (5:52 am)Agree that the fiscal conservatives were FAR from fiscally conservative. Spend, spend spend. But then 2 years of Dems and the only “Change” was accelerating in the wrong direction. Pay-go is a joke when favored causes are now “emergencies” and not covered. Please don’t sing another verse of Blame DubYuh, I’d sing along! I’m just wondering when Personal Responsibility is going to be taken by our (current 4) year majority – last 2 years of Bush and now. That may change come November, but even then I lack confidence in a good outcome. At best well get a better “balance”, so they can all do less damage.
It’s too early in the A.M. for political stuff. This might be my first post to get voled off the Island (g).
Anyone else get in OK’d for a Volt?
Be well,
Tagamet
Vote them all out and start over. Yeah, I know that won’t happen, but I can dream. (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 29th, 2010 (6:01 am)This looks interesting re chargers:
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/editors/25537/
Be well,
Tagamet
+2
Jul 29th, 2010 (6:17 am)Never is a long time.
If you look back to the 1994 elections you will see that many fiscal conservatives were actually elected into the R party and they tried pretty hard to reign in the budget. The press and the democrats howled like babies when all they were trying to do was cut the rate of growth (or pull food from the mouths of starving school kids with their contract “on” America as the media and the democrats described it).
They did slow down the rate of growth and manage to reform welfare ( which B. Clinton signed and claimed he would repeal it later to save face but it stayed). The R’s and Bill were in the process of reforming Medicare. They were working closely together on this and they could have done it but then the Monica saga started. Bill had to run back into the arms of the democrats in order to stay in power and reform of all type was essentally stopped.
Since that time, fiscal conservatism has been on the sidelines. The R’s who practiced in in the 1990s were crucified from their troubles. I my lifetime, I have observed the R’s to be the lesser of two evils when it comes to fiscal conservatism. They might be bad but they are not as bad as the alternatives.
Personally, I have always voted for the fiscal conservative. I supported Paul Tsongas in 1992 (A democrat who was preaching that we needed to declare a fiscal emergency (clinton beat him in the primaries)) and I voted for Ross Perot because of his focus on fiscal discipline (remember all of those cool graphs he made) Most elections now I just just the lesser of two evils.
Jul 29th, 2010 (7:44 am)Waste? Try telling that to my mom, who only has a 3-mile commute. Paying for 40-mile capacity just plain does not make any sense for people who have short drives like that.
And what’s with the “7 miles of EV range” greenwashing? You know quite well that it’s was designed to deliver 20km (12.4 miles) and test drives so far have met and even exceeded that.
Jul 29th, 2010 (8:04 am)You’re right. Please cross out the 7, make it 12 and apologize to your mom for me.
Sorry about that, no greenwashing intended.
You realize that you have effectively reduced the practical use of the car to a very small group of people that can actually make us of the added expense? It’s just doesn’t make sense to spend the extra money for the rest of us.
Jul 29th, 2010 (8:27 am)What part of 75 MPG would you like further explanation of?
The plug-in feature offers an efficiency boost to the normal 50 MPG you get. That’s what people will be paying for. All will utilize the electricity in some fashion. The beauty of it is the price will be much lower. That math is simple… 5 verses 16 kWh.
Jul 29th, 2010 (8:37 am)GM has not released any of the details about how the lease is structured…. but here are a few thoughts:
-in either case, the dealer sells the car – purchase to the customer; lease to the leasing company. Both count as a sale.
-VIRTUALLY every lease you see advertised by manufacturers is calculated by taking a % off MSRP – this varies by model. In the case of the VOLT, if GM wants to have dealers promote the lease, they MUST keep the selling price at MSRP. It would be a massive mistake to promote a VOLT lease that required the dealer to sell the car to the leasing company for some predetermined price like 96% of MSRP. BIG MISTAKE.
-if GM offers the lease as an equal deal to the dealer, then the dealer should present the purchase vs lease option fairly to each customer.
-given the choice, our dealership prefers leasing, as we build a better relationship with our customers, since we see them every 3 years vs the average purchase customer who might come in every 5 or 6 years. with a lease, at least you get to review the customers options at the end of 3 years, and even if they decide to buyout their leased vehicle, many times we can offer an extended warranty or even ‘certify’ the vehicle under the manufacturer’s certified pre-owned program giving the customer a longer warranty on their buyout.
Jul 29th, 2010 (9:12 am)Most manufactured goods save energy by being used as long as possible, then reused then recycled. Cars are different as they use more energy on the road than is required to make them. This changes the equation drastically in the case of replacing a Civic Hybrid with a Volt. And don’t forget the Civic won’t go to a junkyard – it may replace an old gas guzzling polluter on the roads.
Jul 29th, 2010 (9:13 am)The American Economic Nationalists posting here are completely right. We have to buy American to ensure our economic future.
That we can also not harm the world’s environmental future quite as much as we might with a gas guzzler is only a fringe benefit. It is a shame that Americans have to charge other Americans so much, and that we don’t work as hard as, and that our quality is lower than, the Japanese and Germans and Koreans, but, alas, those countries aren’t going to take care of us when we are in trouble. It is also a shame that that our CEOs and Unions are greedy incompetent slobs.
Americans seem to be fighting another civil war. The liberals believe that they must buy foreign cars to punish the greedy short-sighted conservatives that they believe run GM. Now that the government bailed out GM, conservatives are going to punish the liberals in Washington by boycotting the Volt and buying more pickups, perhaps. And hey, Japan, Germany, and Korea win.
Instead of bickering about the politics, why don’t we bicker about the percentage of this car this is being produced abroad, or by foreigners in the States (LG, for example). Why don’t we call for more (more? some!) tarriffs on imports. Knock all imports down to quid-pro-quo levels. Why don’t we demand that California not give (American taxpayer) rebates for foreign products?
Jul 29th, 2010 (9:18 am)John1701a hasn’t reduced the practical use of anything… He’s pointing out, perfectly reasonably, that an RE-EV with an expensive battery is overkill for someone with a short commute.
My situation is similar to John’s mom… I live 3 miles from work, 12 miles of EV range and I can commute electrically, even if I go home for lunch (and I do). I live 3 miles from work because I care about oil consumption and greenhouse gases, so I picked my home accordingly.
Why would I spend $41K for capability that I don’t need? Especially if the Prius delivers an impressive 50mpg after the battery goes flat (extrapolating from current Prius experience)?
I strongly suspect that many of the people motivated by oil, greenhouse gases, etc, have also already organized their lives to use little fuel and the Volt will be a great expense for a negligible benefit.
Of course, I go green. keep fit and save even more money over a Volt by using my bike (just a couple hundred bucks) and, eveyr now and then, walking.
Jul 29th, 2010 (9:19 am)Not bad fuel economy if that’s what’s important. The Volt makes that number secondary. Where’s the competition? There isn’t any.
But here’s a hypothetical for you. Suppose Toyota wants to bump up Scion’s reputation (they’re defects per hundred ranks pretty low) and puts a 40 mile plugin powertrain in the xb. Lexus wants one too but decides to use the system you foster.
They both sell for $45k. Which one would you buy?
Jul 29th, 2010 (9:49 am)Neither, that doesn’t fit the “cost-effective” requirement.
Jul 29th, 2010 (10:40 am)Convenient that your calendar stops in 1929 and thus ignores protectionism’s contributions to the Great Depression. Also, Japan has had near-zero economic growth for 20 years.
An IMF-style bailout is not applicable to the US because we borrow in our own currency. We may be headed for financial catastrophe, but not the type the IMF handles.
You note our trade deficit is around 400b. Not coincidentally we also spend about 400b importing oil. Other than oil our exports balance our imports. Our exports tend to support high quality jobs such as chip design or movie production while imports tend to support low end factory jobs. Protectionism also lowers the overall standard of living. We’d be much better off ending our trade deficit by ending oil imports than through protectionism.
Jul 29th, 2010 (10:44 am)You’re funny. Hoover dam construction began when Hoover was president. It was approved when Coolidge was president. The US interstate system was created when Eisenhower was president. All were Republicans.
Jul 29th, 2010 (10:49 am)Showing how important price is, this site of mainly Volt fans as of today have voted;
I will neither buy nor lease the Volt 56%
GM should take note that they have created a nitch car and not a car for the masses.
Jul 29th, 2010 (11:00 am)So, called a dealership to gauge interest and availability. They are planning (and have indicated that other dealerships are doing this) to markup the car 20k!!!!
Yes folks, $61,000 before federal tax credit.
I don’t care what you do, I’m waiting. I’m not paying 61k for a 25k car…. 33k was reasonable this is INSANE!!!!
GM may set the MSRP but DEALERSHIPS control the pricing on the street…
Jul 29th, 2010 (11:24 am)true, but generally real estate appreciates, cars almost never…
Jul 29th, 2010 (11:59 am)Exactly
Jul 29th, 2010 (12:18 pm)How do you know the price of the Ford EV? What of demand?
Jul 29th, 2010 (1:19 pm)To further Charlie H’s comment, GM has been decidedly anti-environment for its entire existence, and the common popular opinions of the vast fraction of its customer base are the same. That is a lot of inertia to have to turn, since most environmentalists do not look towards GM for leadership or as a worthwhile company to support.
The pitch of ‘no-oil’ rather than ‘no-fossil-fuel’ was an adept move, but GM still has to work against the ‘more-power, and-bigger-is-better’ mantra it has worked so hard to instill in its customers.
Jul 29th, 2010 (1:20 pm)Sure. Republicans are fiscally conservative. When they’re out of power, and they don’t need to prime the economy for election. When they’re in power they behave very differently.
Jul 29th, 2010 (1:22 pm)Agreed. Both parties are to blame here. And I’m certainly not a fan of any of the incumbents. However, I doubt we’ll see anything different as long as districts are gerrymandered to the point of absurdity.
Jul 29th, 2010 (2:01 pm)As far as the contribution to the depression–I agree that Smoot-Hawley made things worse rather than better. (Although I suspect it’s importance has been exaggerated. We had tariffs in place for most of the 1800s.) But, at the time, we had a substantial trade surplus that made us vulnerable. Right now we have a trade deficit that means we would win any trade war. Big difference.
Japan has had very little growth over the past 20 years. But the average standard of living is still a lot higher than it was before they adopted these catch-up policies. And it’s a lot higher in Japan than in countries that didn’t adopt such policies. And Japan has a major demographic crisis on its hands that’s makes real growth a little difficult…
For the moment, we borrow in our own currency. And that is an advantage. But there’s no guarantee that that will continue. And my point about the IMF bailout is the scale of a potential US debt crisis. And, yes, one could happen.
Our trade deficit in May was $43.2 billion. Annualized that would be 518.4 billion dollars. (Assuming, of course, that every month was the same. But May is not typically one of the biggest months for the trade deficit.) That is in the context of 17% U6 unemployment, which has a rather strong dampening affect on consumption. If the economy recovers, there’s no reason it wouldn’t go back to the 700 billion it was before the financial crisis. (And, by the way, that was continually growing.)
Our oil imports in May totaled $21.5 billion. That may cover a substantial portion of our trade imbalance. But it’s far from being all of it.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/u-s-trade-deficit-unexpectedly-rises-in-may/19551918/
As far as imports supporting high wage US jobs–for the top 10% of US wage earners sure. (Although the long term value of the dollar will erode the value of any other assets/savings.) But as far as the rest of us are concerned, the median wage has actually declined since 1970.
Factory jobs are actually higher than the average. And design jobs, and research jobs are now being exported to. We have a trade deficit in high technology goods. (The exact ones that we’re supposedly basing our future on.) With China.
And companies are now moving research to India and China…
Jul 29th, 2010 (3:20 pm)Median real household income is about 50k today vs. 43k in 1970.
As for the May trade deficit, you picked the highest month in a year and a half and a relatively low month for oil imports. But you are right that on a NET basis oil imports do not comprise our entire deficit. Net oil imports were a bit under 60% of or net trade deficit year-to-date. Taking our net oil imports to zero (as opposed to taking all imports to zero but somehow retaining our oil product exoprts) would wipe out the majority of our trade deficit but still leave us with some work to do.
Jul 29th, 2010 (4:19 pm)The real median household income has increased. The median salary has declined. Most households now have two people who work.
I picked the most recent month for which I could get data. But you’re right. It is the highest of the year. And oil imports were pretty low. But the trade deficit was high because it reflects the rebounding economy. (Which, could, of course be derailed by the eurozone’s issues. Although I suspect it will increase our trade deficit as Europeans stop buying as many of our exports.)
Absolutely, if we managed to take oil imports to zero, it would help tremendously. (Although I suspect that will be extremely difficult.) But we ignore our growing lack of competitiveness in other areas at our peril. The longer we take to address the issue, the worse we’ll be. We can’t afford to just focus on oil and forget everything else.
Jul 29th, 2010 (9:41 pm)Well, I know you wouldn’t cough up the cash, but the market scenario wouldn’t be too far off.
It’s all a matter of priorities and perspective. You just push your loyalty to the Prius to a fault and don’t see much of the irrelevance in much of your arguments.
Jul 30th, 2010 (10:21 am)Loyalty to what?
MAINSTREAM PRICING is not rocket science, nor brand specific.
Jul 30th, 2010 (12:04 pm)Remember why Lutz said “nicely under $30,000” as a goal?
Jul 31st, 2010 (4:52 am)THIS WEEK I talked to the IRS Tax Department of the issue of the rebate!
“IF YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WRITE THE IRS A CHECK FOR $7500 APRIL 15TH, YOU WILL NOT GET THE ENTIRE $7500 TAX CREDIT. NO CARRY AHEAD OR CARRY BACK TO USE IT. USE IT OR LOSE IT!
IF YOU HAVE A GOOD ACCOUNTANT AND GOOD WRITE-OFFS, OR DEFERRED COMPENSATION, LOTS OF LUCK!
Jul 31st, 2010 (8:37 am)jdenn, what is the effect of manufacturer rebates on resale value ?
Aug 2nd, 2010 (5:46 pm)People who buy the Leaf will get the lesson on electricity consumption with no backup generator in short order. Is it raining guess what the wipers drain the battery, is it hot or is it cold, you get the point everything drains the battery, so you better not be to far down the road when it starts pouring down rain and the wife gets cold and then you have to turn the headlights on to see where you are going. The Leaf will be lucky if it can go even 50 miles with a full load on the battery, just watch the news and see when the first Leaf driver runs out of juice on the freeway in California in a rainstorm. Stick with the Volt at least you have a reliable back-up so you have no worries and don’t have to keep your eyes glued to the battery gauge to make sure you have enough power left to make it home.
Aug 14th, 2010 (11:20 am)I am late to this news posting, because I needed to think about the implications that the price for the Volt has done to my own plans to buy a Volt. With the price of 41000 set as the MSRP price this car is now out of my budget. Sorry Chevy, will not be buying a Volt. In fact it got me thinking in terms of cost compared to other cars, and at 41000, even with a good lease deal, which I am sure is 12,000 mile max with extra cost over 12K miles. Not a good deal for me. The other thing is that a person has to finance the 41000 in some way. I feel that the price of the car should have been 33,500. What GM is doing is having the buyer finance at 41000 so that GM gets the 7500 up front for GM, an indirect way of getting finance from the government. So the way I see it is that the amount above 33500 is really a tax we are paying to buy the car. Call it an early adopter tax!
In any case if the price was 33500 MSRP, I would put my money down today if I had a dealer to buy from. So SORRY GM, I AM GOING TO FORD FOR A FUSION HYBRYD.
P JOY