General Motors first announced they would develop a commercial plugin hybrid in mid-2006, six months prior to announcing the Volt concept.
Since then the automaker has ostensibly been working on developing the technology with a plan for commercialization.
The system is called the two-mode plugin hybrid drivetrain and is an extension of the standard two-mode hybrid drivetrain already commercially available. I had the chance to test drive a prototype of the vehicle last summer.
The system uses two electric motors, one for low and one for higher speeds. They are brought into parallel operation with the gas engine depending on a central processing unit’s calculation of demand and efficiency. The plugin version has an 8 kwh lithium-ion battery pack which the system attempts to fully discharge over 20 miles of driving. It is capable of pure EV driving up to 40 mph but will use the gas engine whenever power demands require it.
Initially, the system was slated to debut in the Saturn VUE crossover, and in that application at least 60 to 70 MPG of fuel economy was expected. The demise of the Saturn brand cause the car briefly to be planned to appear in a small Buick crossover, though that was also canceled as it was really no more than a thinly-disguised Saturn VUE with a Buick badge.
Most recently GM demonstrated the system in a large Cadillac XTS Platinum luxury sedan, but the fate tof that vehicle remains unknown.
I reached out to advanced technology spokesperson Brian Corbett for an update.
“It is still an active program at GM under development for production,” said Corbett of the plugiun 2-mode hybrid. “Since we cancelled the Buick crossover last year, we have identified vehicle applications for plug-in hybrid technology.”
Asked when we will finally see the system in production he alluded to future announcements, “we’ll get more specific on timeline.”
As for the delay. Since “we no longer offer the vehicle it was originally announced for,” he says GM has to “transfer the technology to entirely different vehicles.”
“That is our problem,” he admits. “And that is the reason for the new timing.”
However Corbett remains confident the system will see the light of day.
“We will go to production,” he said.
[UPDATE: Confirming earlier reports, GM has officially announced that VP of US Marketing Joel Ewanick will be unveiling the Chevrolet Volt "pricing and ordering details," on Jul 27th at 12PM Eastern at the Plugin2010 conference in San Jose California]
+18
Jul 26th, 2010 (6:38 am)It would still be nice to see 60-70 MPG in something
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (6:47 am)Thanks for the update Lyle.
Older reports on the Web still hint at an Equinox 2-Mode for 2011 or 2012.
This type of car has a lot of promise.
+11
Jul 26th, 2010 (6:47 am)Well, yeah. The Volt if you drive it about 120 miles a day with 40 of that being electric.
+6
Jul 26th, 2010 (6:52 am)Although I’m sure that the two-mode will have a fan base looking for more power AND better mpg, I’m personally much more interested in that AER of a Volt. I’m very glad to see GM looking at producing a number of plugin “flavors” though, to meet the general population’s varying needs. e.g. towing capacity, larger vehicle, etc. JMO.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (6:57 am)That’s not 60-70 MPG.
That 40 MPC and the rest MPG
+6
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:04 am)The two-mode always seems to have great promise but not quite be there in terms of real vehicles. I have been looking for a new pickup truck and seriously considered the two-mode Silverado. It is markedly more expensive ($4-$8K more), and that seems to be the case for all two-mode. But the killer issue is that people who have driven and reviewed two-mode say that the result is a mediocre truck — awkward shifts, slow acceleration, lower towing capacity and just not a polished truck to own and drive. So it is a hard sell to me to pay more to get less.
I keep thinking that these issues are simply those that come with a new technology and that they will be smoothed out in time. At least I hope so. Whatever, two-mode does not yet seem ready for prime time.
+7
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:04 am)Is it just me, or does this “we’ll get more specific on timeline” and “stay tuned” start to get a little boring???
OT:
I have been thinking about the pricing issue for the Volt. What I think we need to really know, and maybe what GM needs to know is:
What is the price at which you will no longer consider the purchase of a Volt, as it is simply too expensive?
I think that Lyle did this a long time ago, but maybe it is time for an update.
So how about it Lyle? Would you do another poll for us?
And base it on the sticker price. Skip all the rebate issues.
Thanks.
BTW: My personal walk away price for a fully loaded Gen-1 Volt would be anything over $42,500. That is my “out the door” maximum price.
So how about you???
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:16 am)I became a fan of the Vue 2 mode hybrid back in 2007. Although I really like the Volt and its technology, this 2 mode CUV is the vehicle I need/want. I’m anxiously awaiting GM’s official progress report on the debut of this vehicle, but I may have to buy something before it come out.
Thanks, Lyle, for the update.
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:18 am)Does seem like there is a lack of follow-through in regard to the two-mode. I’m sure that application of a particular engine or transmission has encountered similar problems in the past, but this one just keeps failing over and over. What is going on?
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:19 am)Regarding the “Future Announcements” and “Stay Tuned”, it is starting to sound a little like EEStor/Zenn. However, GM is an established company with a new focus and mission, so I am sure it will arrive. I think they just need to be more secretive and not send out signals of new and exciting technology until they are well on their way to commercialization. Maybe 6-12 months prior to launch.
Regarding OT: I am holding at the $49,490 for Gen-1 VOLT (Sticker). I will get my VOLT in 4 years at $31,899.
+8
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:24 am)Just as GM is being cautious about announcing their MSRP, I’d be equally reluctant to announce to any company what my highest price would be. They are worried about how much profit they can make (as it should be), and I’m not sure that I’d like to GIVE them that answer. I wouldn’t walk onto a car lot and tell the salesperson “I want a car and I’m willing to pay $42.500″. Probably just me, but GM will sell every Volt they make for the first two years. They should want to keep the price down, so that they can sell cars *long term*. That first impression of “too expensive” would be hard to overcome.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:28 am)The plug-in 2 mode VUE mules are a favorite topic of mine. In fact, I bought an ’08 VUE as a “gap filler”, planning to trade it for a plug-in 2 mode version when it became available. Why?
Primarily because:
- The plug-in FWD 2 mode CUV architecture with 8KWh (half the Volt battery) has LOTS of towing/hauling capability yet uses almost no gas driving locally (most often <10miles total)*
- The VUE is identical to Germany's Opel Antera, an affordable clone of BMW's X5 CUV with its superb suspension tuning/handling, overall performance & luxury appointments at a bargain
So I was very disappointed when GM killed off Saturn, and I'm glad to hear they're still working on this superb drive train & intend to introduce something like an Equinox using it.
*My office is at home & my normal trips are short: to the P.O., bank, grocery or hauling my boat up or down the ramp at my waterfront.
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:29 am)OT, but I hope that in the Volt’s owner’s manual, GM has a list of all the car features the owner can enable, along with a way to quantify how much electricity each one uses. Maybe it’s some table that shows how many miles the range is diminished for each feature (A/C, heater, stereo, etc.) per hour of operation. You could just state the average power draw of each, but I don’t think most people would really understand what that equates to.
Even if the numbers aren’t exact due to variation (how high the A/C is turned up, etc.)… This would give the driver a good apprecation of what each luxury will cost them in terms of range, and be able to adjust accordingly if/when needed. At the least, they’ll better understand their diminished range without getting quite as angry if the Volt doesn’t always deliver 40 miles.
join thE REVolution
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:29 am)This is very true. With strong hybrids and fully tax rebated BEV on the market. GM will do well to stay in the game with a competitive MSRP on the GEN 1 Volt.
=D-Volt
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:38 am)After driving a Honda Civic Hybrid for a year, I’ve always said it would be a no brainer to add a plug and charging technology to Hybrids so they can start with a fully charged battery. I’ve always wondered why Hybrid makers like Toyota, Honda, Ford, and Nissan don’t allow for overnight charging of their hybrid batteries. Looks like a job for Sherlock Holmes.
107 Days and counting.
NPNS!
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:01 am)Sadly, GM could price it cheaply. The dealers will raise it high.
I think the price is somewhat out of the hands of GM.
I say somewhat, because after GM sets the initial price, anything can happen.
Good luck to all early adopters. I sincerely hope we don’t get taken to the bank.
+11
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:01 am)I beg to differ. I own a 2009 GMC Sierra Hybrid and absolutely love it! It shifts smoothly, has plenty of power when I need it (towing and hauling stuff), and gets better mileage than my 5 cylinder Colorado did, doing exactly the same things on exactly the same roads. It helps that I got an amazing deal from my friend’s dealership. I love it, it’s an awesome truck. That is real world testing, not something you read in a magazine.
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:09 am)I can think of a number of GM vehicles this drivetrain would fit in quite nicely… Equinox comes to mind as the top of the list. But with some modifications, what’s to say that this drivetrain couldn’t fit in ALL of GM’s vehicles. Over-simplified and expensive to do I realize, but can’t a boy dream?
+4
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:11 am)—
I’m glad to hear it. All I know is from various magazine and internet reviews, and those are sometimes a different story than told by actual owners with longer-term day-to-day experience. So accepting your description, it seems like the remaining hurdle is price. That’s important but sometimes can be minimized as production volume increases.
+5
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:12 am)Personally, I would like to see GM expand the voltec powertrain to other vehicles like a small SUV instead of this two-mode plugin hybrid drivetrain. If they put it in the Equinox and it only got 25-30 miles AER that would be an awesome vehicle.
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:14 am)You’re absolutely right! There’s a huge range of vehicles between the Saturn VUE and the Caddy XTS Platinum, many of which seem to be good candidates for this superb drive train!
-12
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:23 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:27 am)One of the local Chevrolet dealers seems straight forward on this issue. He says he’ll sell the Volt at MSRP. Still, I am unwilling to go forward with paperwork until I know what I am signing for. This means CS mpg and MSRP plus cost of options. If the first lot of Volt sell out before this information is released. Then so be it. Will wait for word on the 2012 model.
=D-Volt
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:30 am)There’s an “Energy Info” screen in Leaf for that. It provides meters with live usage data, for the motor, climate-control, and other systems.
In the example provided last week, it displayed a 22-mile reduction from the 98-mile range currently available when using climate-control.
+6
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:38 am)I think that GM almost HAS to go low on the price, simply because the dealers *will* mark up these high demand vehicles. If the MSRP is $40K and that gets marked up 10K, we’re looking at a horrible first impression.
I’m not one to totally resent dealers going above the MSRP on scarce vehicles. I *DO* have a personal tolerance above which I won’t go – and it’s WAY less than 10K (lol). I’ll pay something extra for the honor of a Gen I, but I won’t get foolish about it. If it’s too high, I ll defer to someone willing to pay the freight. I accept that “life’s not fair”, but I’m very concerned about the long term effect on the Volt of GM starting out by making the MSRP already out of reach for a large part of the demographic. I’m pretty sure that there are a very limited number of people able AND willing to be taken to the bank (even in AER mode). JMO.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:45 am)I was able to kinda split the difference. I signed a PO and placed a good deposit to “get in line”, but I have the right to refuse the vehicle if its MSRP (or anything else) isn’t a good fit. I’m pretty far down the list (#19), but the dealer is huge and (says he) has an allotment of 35. Spring of 2011 would be fantastic for me.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
-7
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:45 am)Two-mode — too complicated, too expensive, and too thirsty??
I keep hoping the “Global Hybrid Cooperation” system will have some promise, but more and more it just looks like it’s not going to pan out.
Chrysler is out, Mercedes is out, BMW is out, and 3 years after this article was written it appears not much has changed for GM — they just can’t seem to make a good business case for it.
GM may eat hybrid cost
Goal is to make technology affordable for consumers
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070709/SUB/70706032/1128
-24
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:45 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:46 am)Seems to reflect a good strategy for Toyota. Increase battery pack size, increase AER, put in the charging port – eat up the Volt market from the cheap side. If they average 50 mpg now and increase the AVG mpg to ~70 for daily driving at a cost benefit vs. the Volt, they’re going to attract a lot of customers. They could keep increasing batteries as the energy density and cost vs. weight ratio improves as anticipated.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:55 am)I really do not understand all of the foot dragging with this. If it works as well as everyone seems to think it works, 60 to 70 Mpg as stated in the article, then why not put it in several vehicles. It was designated originally for the Vue. Then why not just but it in the Equinox and the Terrain and whatever the new Buick CUV is called. Why not even put it in the cadillac SRX. I can not believe the engineeriing for a different vehicle can bee all the difficult or take as long as it is taking.
+5
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:57 am)I hope that Toyota does exactly that. It’s a win-win, since there are people who have very long commutes who’d really benefit, and there is the other 78% who can drive largely gasoline free. There is plenty of room in the market for many plugins. It’s not the zero sum game that so many people paint it to be!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
Jul 26th, 2010 (9:02 am)Interesting, thanks for the info John. Not sure why you’re getting negative votes for posting useful information.
Hopefully GM will provide similar info either via displays, owner’s manual, or both.
join thE REVolution
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (9:06 am)You’ll know MSRP and options tomorrow.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (9:21 am)Maybe.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
Jul 26th, 2010 (9:23 am)I agree too. People still think iPhones cost more than other smartphones because in the beginning they were head and shoulders above any other smartphone when they were launched. Reality is that they cost about $200 with a subsidized plan and you can sell them for $500 on eBay even after 2 years. Appreciation included, iPhones are hands down the cheapest phones (not just smartphones) because of the resale value, but that perception of being a rich person’s toy or teenager daughter spoiler is what most people think of.
Most people still think hybrids like the Prius come at a premium (they don’t, compare a ’10 Malibu and the ’10 Prius, within a few hundred dollars price difference, and that’s because Toyota raised the price by $1,500 after they realized the Honda Insight couldn’t compete) and therefore don’t even both looking into them.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (9:27 am)I would think is it is a good strategy for all car makers including the Chevy VOLT.
As batteries get better and more energy dense the range of the VOLT will also increase.
Assuming the same will be true for the Ford Fusion and Prius plug ins.
Will the GM 2 mode hybrid benefit too. Will it even be a plugin?
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (9:32 am)I never paid MSRP for a car. So I certainlty will not pay over MSRP for the Volt. I am willing to pay MSRP for the Volt if it is in my price range. And my price range is private. GM will find out when I buy my Volt or cancel my place on the waiting list at my Dealer.
Jul 26th, 2010 (9:44 am)Rather than a power split setup in one vehicle it seems that we’re moving towards splitting the driving between two vehicles — an EV for local drives and an ICE for longer ones. Of course there will be a place for hybrids so long as the the price premium is sufficiently modest. The pricing of the Lincoln hybrid is a case in point. But GM seems to have designed a hybrid technology for larger vehicles, and CNG would seem the less expensive and better alternative for this class. IOW a CNG Silverado would be more welcome by just about everyone than an expensive slightly less gas-guzzling hybrid.
Given the cost curve for batteries and electronics and the claimed superiority of an EV drive, it’s difficult to see the usefulness of hybrids as we move forward.
+8
Jul 26th, 2010 (9:52 am)You are a MORON! And before your venomous and ignorant comment gets voted out of existence, I figured I would comment on it so others can learn from your obvious bias. As an owner of BOTH Toyota and GM hybrid SUVs, I am more aware than most of the large differences in the vehicles. Ford paid Toyota a royalty fee because of similarities in hybrid design (not because they stole it, but because royalties were cheaper than lawyers). GM’s approach was radically different by putting it all inside the transmission housing. Check out this photo http://alternativefuels.about.com/od/2008hybridreviews/ig/08-Tahoe—Yukon-2-Mode-Hybrid/08-GM-Hybrid-motor-cutaway.htm I guess you fit the definition of a ‘troll’ and the only reason to address a troll is to give other readers information about how wrong you are. Now go back into your cave.
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:04 am)Hybrids (Parallel?) will have a place if they are efficient tow vehicles.
If an all electric drive systems can take over then parallel hybrids future may be limited.
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:09 am)Good for you Tag. The offer I have is, “If you want it, sign and pay”. Three times he said, “If you want it”. The other dealer says he’ll call when he KNOWS the price. So there is still hope for the 2011 model year.
=D-Volt
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:12 am)And for a second comment on your two mode inquiry, let me add that I am very happy with my Chevy Tahoe Hybrid. Do a google search and you will find many positive reviews on this vehicle. There is a large (percentage) increase in city MPG from the conventional version. I read the reviews on the Silverado Hybrid and wondered why the reviews for that vehicle could be so markedly different than with the Tahoe Hybrid, given the similarity in technology. It was as if they ignored the 50% improvement in city MPG that they would document in their own articles and focus on the modest decrease in towing capability. I believe the demographic viewpoint for truck buying oddly smears the picture. We here at Volt Nation are about getting rid of as much oil as possible. So listen to the previous comment (from the satisfied Silverado Hybrid owner) and ignore the talking heads of the truck world.
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:21 am)I would assume cars like the Two-Mode Plugin and other hybrids will play a vital role in reducing oil usage while we wait for BEVs to get to the point where range issues are not a problem for the general population.
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:28 am)The Nikkei reports Honda’s price for the Fit Hybrid – $16,500 with no subsidies. Analysts are predicting this may start a price war between Toyota and Honda hybrids.
http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/honda-fit-hybrid.html
This is a car that should get somewhere around 50 mpg.
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:30 am)I would never walk into a dealer and do that. I own my own business, and think I am pretty good at the negotiation process.
But it would be good for GM to know from a poll, what we feel is too expensive for the initial production run of the Volt, don’t you think?
And since it looks like I will not be in line for a first year Volt, it really doesn’t matter what my walk away price is. For year two or Gen-2, that price will be significantly less, since the “early adopter” status will be gone……….
JMHO
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:34 am)I can answer that. $30K before tax credit.
The masses should be able to handle that number.
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:38 am)This is a war that Toyota may win, their hybrid tech may be lower cost since it replaces an automatic transmission at the expense of an additional motor.. also look out for Hyundai. Very exiting times.
Jul 26th, 2010 (10:43 am)My point is that since hybrids use more gasoline and emit more pollution and are more expensive to buy and maintain than something like a CNG vehicle but don’t offer the ride or fun-to-drive experience of an EV it’s not clear why their use should be encouraged or why anyone would want one. IOW there are better alternatives to hybrids on just about every count.
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:07 am)Wow, if I heard that quote, I’d leave scorch marks out the door! (g). With me, it was *I* who was clarifying that if anything isn’t “right”, I get my money back. In fact, I even said it incorrectly once, so *he* could correct me about “No, then you get your deposit back“. I’m rooting for you to get one in 2011. I’m trying to “pace” my impatience. The guy predicted “spring of 2011″, so I’m thinking that spring will begin in Sept. of 2011.
Ever the optimist, the lists MAY go the way they did when we bought a Prius for my daughter. She was told 6 months, but one came in within 2 WEEKS that someone didn’t take and she got THAT one! No one wanted White (lol). (Not sure my Dear One will settle for anything but red though).
Good luck!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:15 am)This is a big deal. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a more financially sound “green” purchase than a $16,500 hybrid fit. We know Toyota will counter, and likely Ford, Hyundai, and Nissan will too. GM at this point doesn’t have anything on the horizon to compete in the “affordable hybrid” category.
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:15 am)Sorry, I didn’t mean that you would actually do that. I think a “better” poll would be for everyone who can find a GM dealer with a refundable deposit policy to call up and get on their list, even if the list is long. Then when the price is announced, if it’s too high – bail. If a lot of dealers have to hand back a lot of deposits, maybe it’d have an impact – even if it’s just on the markup. JMO.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+6
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:18 am)I still want mine with a middle finger painted on the hood and OPEC underneath it.
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:21 am)DonC,
I know you’re knowledgeable about CNG (and I know that I am NOT), educate me a little. Could CNG be used as the backup energy for CS mode the way gasoline is in the Volt?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:23 am)If it’s on the hood, you should have it painted as a mirror image. Then the person in front of you will see it as “correct” in their rearview mirror.
I still want the scrolling lights on the trunk that say XXXXXXX miles 1.2 gallons of gasoline.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:30 am)I see what you are saying. I am just thinking about what we know will actually be in dealerships over the next 5 years or so.
+4
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:32 am)OK, here’s another example of why GM just can’t figure out how to succeed.
They have the tooling dies, they have the SUV, they have it with two electric motors and a plug, they have nearly all the engineering complete. All they need to do basically is slap a new grill in the place of where the Saturn one was – remove the fake chrome intake frosting on the side, slap on Chevrolet badging and maybe tweak the plastic taillight covers a bit – then market the &^%* thing.
Look GM — people want a 5-6 passenger practical SUV ( wagon ) that gets 60-70 mpg! What about this do you not understand?!!!!!!! To me, that’s more plain than the nose on your face.
Either it’s a big excuse, or it’s pure insanity ( insert sound of A. Einstein rolling over in his grave ). GM cannot be that stupid. People DO NOT CARE if this machine has Saturn labeling, Chevrolet, Buick….or friggin’ AC DELCO badges on it, for God’s sakes, man! Literally, this machine has integration and testing pretty much ready for the showroom, and the big holdup is what bodywork and brand to place on it?! Gimme a break.
Truth is, the big holdups are — How to explain to oil companies that you’re also on the board with, that people are happily chugging along to soccer practice and the supermarket daily using no, or very little petrol! ??? They were willing to market it as a Saturn so this tells me the technology will not be prohibitively expensive. Yet now this article states they wanted it to become a Buick or Caddy. SO WHAT! Charge more – people will line up down the street! Can you imagine a small SUV that makes Prius look like a gas hog?!!!!
If GM is seriously holding back this technology from the American and Canadian people because it feels deeply there is an image problem with marketing a vehicle some people…..some…….maybe a few……people….will recognize as a Saturn SUV that did not sell in overwhelming or even pleasant numbers……. then GM is as bright as a rock. And I don’t buy that.
There is some compelling evidence that does, however, support that GM’s billion dollar marketing, accounting and sales staffs are about as intelligent as the Geico cavemen….. Remember the decades-long, painful marketing approach of rebadging? How can a corporation succeed when it sells a re-grilled version of the same car in three or four versions under three or four brand names at the same time in the name of reaching each particular income or status niche? GM sold such absolute duds like the Cadillac Cimmarron in attempts to “fool” the American public into thinking a bag of Doritos was a juicy steak by just slapping on some tinny bits to cover up the domesticity of a sow’s ear. It went on for decades, these attempts to market the same exact thing in several different divisions.
Look. It didn’t work. Today companies like Toyota, Nissan, Honda and others sell versions of their more suburban class chassis as upmarket entry-level Lexus, Infinity or Acura models with completely different sheetmetal on top. More expensive, yet not the blatant, cheesy approach GM always took. GM’s way only made their cars look cheap, lame and, of course, sent them towards bankruptcy.
Today, here we have the same GM thinking. A nearly complete SUV that would sell like air conditioners in Dubai, and they say they are so worried people will not buy it because it’s a Buick or Chevy but they recognize it as a SATURN?!!!!!
You’ve GOT to be kidding!
RECHARGE!
James
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:34 am)I drive some miles. I buy some gasoline. I divide. Your complexity may vary.
And if I drive a whole bunch of miles over a year’s time and buy no gasoline at all, well, I’m comfortable with the concept of dividing by zero and getting infinite miles per gallon.
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:56 am)I suspect this is exactly what is taking so long. GM has to solve all these issues. Towing capacity is probably the hardest, as the solution involves larger electric motors, which in turn means bigger more expensive housing etc. So I think they will forgo the towing capacity for the time being. However I am optimistic about dramatic increase in mileage due to the plug-in part and lower cost via committing to high volume production. To achieve the latter, it must become standard equipment on several models.
The whole thing is a tough call, and I am sure GM has been crunching the numbers for a long time trying to find the optimal solution. How can you introduce a more complex two-mode transmission AND add the cost of an 8kWhr battery for no increase in price. Really, you can’t, so maybe look at 4kWhr battery, and try to shave cost off the ICE by going smaller.
The fact that they are going ahead with it suggests they have found a solution. Curious wording “we have identified vehicle applications for plug-in hybrid technology.” I think the word “applications” should not be there and re-vising the phrase to “we have identified vehicles for plug-in hybrid technology.” puts a whole new spin on it meaning that there will be several models with this new hybrid design. Maybe I’m reading in too much, but I think this fits with the requirement of committing to higher volume.
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:58 am)That’s how I prefer to think about it too… In reality, MPG becomes MPGG or MPGE (Miles per gallon gasoline, or miles per gallon equivalent), or separated as Rashiid did.
Your calculation method would be MPGG. I like to tout that too, because I want our country to stop spending so much of our income on oil.
join thE REVolution
-1
Jul 26th, 2010 (11:58 am)The VUE PHEV wasn’t 60-70 mpg either, it was 20 MPC and 20 miles at about 30 MPG.
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:00 pm)Interesting different points of view on essentially the same question, RSBaker at #30 and James at #56.
Here’s my guess: GM doesn’t want the two-mode plugin to muddy the marketing at the inception of Volt sales. They’ll have enough of a task educating the greater pubic on the *unique* benefits of the Volt’s power train against perceptions that it’s “just another hybrid”.
Once the car-buying public is comfortable with the idea that the Volt is an real electric vehicle with the added value of a range extender, GM will roll out the 2-mode with a Buick badge and market the living daylights out of it.
+8
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:02 pm)See update at end of post
-2
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:07 pm)1988 Cadillac Cimarron ( ugh! )
Just an illustration to support my earlier post.
[ inevitable, some poster will write in and say , " you know, I had a Cimarron and it was a terrific machine! " ~ L
L ]
GM also tanked the Saturn SKY and Pontiac Solstice. Why? These lines could be up and running putting people to work, but GM couldn’t figure out how unique it’s position was with these vehicles – and also the cachet that comes from building a pure feel-good open sportscar ( people buy it, feel so good they think of that manufacturer when time to buy the family ride ). The Mazda Miata stands absolutely alone in it’s market and has zero competitors. How hard is it to put a Cruze/Volt-esque grill on Solstice and sell it as a Chevrolet? For GM, this is just too difficult to figure out.
For us EV aficionados, how cool would a Chevrolet Solstice with a plug be!
To me, GM’s longtime ties with big oil, and it’s history of usually making the wrong decision does not bode well for Volt.
RECHARGE!
James
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:12 pm)The most obvious way to get cost down.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:13 pm)We’ll be looking forward to a post on gm-volt mere minutes later with full details. Thanks Lyle.
-1
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:16 pm)It’s possible but not likely because of space issues. Any engine that runs on gas will run on natural gas. In fact natural gas is much cleaner burning so the engine lasts longer. However, natural gas is a “gas” so in order to be stored it has to be compressed. This is not a huge deal since the technology is readily available but the storage tank for a CNG vehicle has to be larger than a conventional gas tank and it has to be structurally reinforced. Given how tight space is in the Volt I’d think it would be very difficult to shoe horn in a CNG tank.
-5
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:20 pm)Educating the public about the Volt is going to be the most difficult thing to do. Ultimately it has been classified as a PHEV by ANL. Marketing the Volt as a “real ev” is going to be impossible because the general public know an EV is…
Rav4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
Nissan LEAF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_LEAF
Mini E
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_E
iMiEV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imiev
Aptera Series 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2_Series
Coda EV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coda_Automotive
For Ranger EV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ranger_EV
EV1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
Notice none of the mentioned use gasoline. Hybrid’s and PHEV’s use gas. Getting the world to accept the Volt as a “real ev” is a big mistake and will bite GM in the ass.
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:24 pm)============================
Maybe I am not making my point very well.
We all know that GM can not tell their dealers what to price and sell the cars for. But if they had a large sampling of people from a poll that said “Anything over XX thousand dollars will put us out of range to buy a Volt”, to show the dealers, it might help to keep the markups down or eliminate them altogether.
The last thing this car needs is for them to end up sitting on a lot for months because the dealers and/or GM has priced them out of the market.
But with pricing being announced tomorrow, I guess we will know in less than 24 hours…..
-1
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:25 pm)The moment of truth has arrived! Some have worried about the MPG in CS mode but the big deal seems to be the price. Given who is making the announcement I’d say that pricing is going to be on the high side of estimates here. Then again it didn’t work that way with Nissan — it announced surprisingly low pricing almost anonymously. However, GM is not Nissan — it’s more wed to very traditional ways. My guess is equipped with reasonable options $40K – $42K before those pesky dealer markups.
Would that work for you?
-1
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:28 pm)Wala! An electric SKY/Solstice!
~ One of the X-Prize contenders, a SKY with lithium pack and plug. Didn’t check if it passed muster on the latest tier of X-Prize competitions, but it sure is cool. I did notice the Aptera is still hangin’ in there in the competition.
I know it’s OT, but is there still a market for an Aptera if it ever comes to be? To me, the thing would have to be $15,000 MSRP max for me to think about buying in – two seats – and a company about as secure as box of chocolates at a Weight Watchers convention…..?
RECHARGE!
James
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:28 pm)Lyle:
Wasn’t it was just last week that Mr. DiSalle said he could not tell you when the pricing would be announced? I have to doubt they just decided to do this at the last minute.
They could have told you, with the provision that you keep it quiet until today…..
With all the conversations you have had with GM people over the last three years, I think they could trust you by now!!!!!
JMHO
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:40 pm)I went to the Plugin2010 site to see what they had listed for the announcement for tomorrow.
Here is the best I could find:
http://www.plugin2010.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=49
It just says: TBD, Chevrolet For the 8:00 – 9:30 AM Sessions……
I think I would have made it a much bigger deal!!!!! But I guess that is just me.
It also looks like Tony Posawatz will be speaking in Session L1:
http://www.plugin2010.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=45#tues1030
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:48 pm)From http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/26/general-motors-to-announce-chevy-volt-pricing-ordering-on-tuesda/
PRESS RELEASE:
MEDIA ADVISORY: Chevrolet to Provide Details on Volt Pricing, Ordering Process
2010-07-26
DETROIT – On Tues., July 27 at 12:00 p.m. ET, Joel Ewanick, vice president of U.S. marketing – General Motors Co., will announce pricing and ordering details for the 2011 Chevrolet Volt at the Plug-In 2010 conference in San Jose, Calif. Deliveries of the Volt will begin later this year at participating Chevrolet dealers in launch markets.
A press release providing full details on the order process and pricing will go live on media.gm.com at 12:00 p.m. ET.
Following the announcement, there will be a live online webchat with Volt Marketing Director Tony DiSalle.
Jul 26th, 2010 (12:57 pm)I agree that GM could make the mistake of pricing the Volt out of existence. That’s a given. Nothing we can do about that (now) (maybe your poll would have helped, but I suspect that this price has been set for at least weeks now). If dealers markup the MSRP and they end up with Volts on their lots, just SITTIN, they’ll just bring the price back down to get them off the lots.
22 hours……
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:03 pm)Too bad, I would buy a Buick on this platform. Big time.
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:09 pm)Rashid has my heart. A middle-finger on the hood with OPEC taking it. You know, return in kind what they’ve been doing to us for decades.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED. May this car spawn a 1,000,000 copies and even more copy cats.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:12 pm)Slightly more accurate would be “Yet ANOTHER moment of truth has arrived!” We’ve been through what seems like a never ending series of these. *THIS* one, I agree is the biggie. The base MSRP is what I need to know. If that’s too high, my next question is “When does Gen II come out”? If it’s low enough, I’ll be able to add a doo-dad or two.
And if my wife finds out that it was WAY too high, I’ll be single. (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
/Thanks for the CNG info too.
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:17 pm)So, does this mean that this site is going to convert to a Volt Owners Website?
I hope so.
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:21 pm)There has been some talk along those lines. I think that Lyle would welcome suggestions.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+4
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:22 pm)I hope they also announce the MPG in CS mode.
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:24 pm)Jim, maybe he did. Lyle wouldn’t break a promise not to divulge if that were the case. I’m sure there are some things that Lyle has held back a bit at the request of his contacts at GM. Nothing wrong with that.
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:31 pm)I wonder if the link I provided last week from Time Magazine is correct.
It said the price for the Volt is $32,500.
+3
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:36 pm)ATTN GM SR. MGMT & MRKTING:
James, this is probably the most important post I’ve seen in almost 3 years at VoltNation, and I AGREE WITH IT TOTALLY!!! ….but why are you UNDERSTATING it so?!?!
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:46 pm)Time’s position has been 40K for over a year (and they’ve had a lot of company in this). 40K minus 7,500 (Federal tax credit) = 32,500. I don’t see anything significant in that report beyond Time’s general cluelessness.
At least, this may be the last time I get to post that comment …
+2
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:49 pm)I would have bought a Vue with a Buick nameplate on it. I couldn’t even care if you could still see the faint outline of the Saturn tag where they peeled it off and put Buick over it…
Morons.
I would absolutely have one of these parked in my garage right now if they had sold it. I’ve never even remotely considered a Saturn before but I would have instantly bought this one – even if it did say Buick on it.
-4
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:53 pm)Why waste scarce batteries on a vehicle which only gets 70 mpg? If I drove to work without going over 40 mph I would be rear-ended the first week. Give me Volt’s 3 digit mpg, and high speed ability.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:54 pm)So if you are listening GM…for the sake of Tag’s marriage, please keep the MSRP LOW!
Jul 26th, 2010 (1:56 pm)LOL, naw. (hee hee).
Did you hear that I signed on for a shot at a 2011 Volt? Now if the price just comes in at a doable level….. I’m pretty sure $40K + markup would be a heart breaker for us.
21 hours……
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (2:02 pm)And we were childhood sweethearts, went to high school and college together, 37 years of wedded BLISS! And both of our children are ORPHANS! Sickly orphans! Don’t DO this to us, GM!!! (g)
Be SMART and price it RIGHT!,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (2:10 pm)Yes, it definitely would be a heart breaker. This technology has got to go mainstream and it won’t do so at a $40K price tag. $40K is way out of the price range of the average American family.
I think a price of $29,995 before the tax credit (which should be a cash incentive, IMO) is way better. Putting the Volt at $22,495 after incentives would blow the Prius out of the water.
The price is extremely important and no matter much how GM preaches about how advanced and unique the technology is, people will compare it to the Prius and the Leaf. It has got to be competitive on the price front.
Jul 26th, 2010 (2:13 pm)Just to clarify, the two mode system will get mpg ratings most likely in the 30s. Similar to a ford escape hybrid. The plug-in allows it to get mpg ratings in the 50 – 60 range but only while the battery is still drawing down power from the overnight charge. Once the battery is depleted, the thing goes back to standard hybrid mpg ratings. Battery depletion is expected to be in the 20-40 mile range.
Jul 26th, 2010 (2:20 pm)================================
So you DO have a “Walk Away” price!!!!!! And it appears to be just about the same as mine!
I knew you would let it out eventually………
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And even this late in the game, I have to say it one more time: This limited release are idea is just a bunch of hogwash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Especially if they expect Chevy dealers all over the country to get trained on the servicing a year or two before they can think about selling them. I should not be forced to go to another state and deal with a dealer I do not know, just to buy a car. And I won’t. I live here. My business is here. I buy here. It would be a shame if some other manufacturer gets my sale because of this stupid plan…………….
JMHO
NPNS
Jul 26th, 2010 (2:30 pm)From the article: ” As for the delay. Since “we no longer offer the vehicle it was originally announced for,” he says GM has to “transfer the technology to entirely different vehicles.”
“That is our problem,” he admits. “And that is the reason for the new timing.”
However Corbett remains confident the system will see the light of day. ”
————————————————————————————————
No shingles Sherlock, A) No, you do not initially “have to” transfer it to entirely different vehicles, and B) Yes, absolutely do do that – transfer the heck out of it into light trucks, sedans, small minivans, commercial sector— go nuts with it. If the VUE platform gets 60-70 mpg as stated, can you imagine a lighter, more aerodynamic sedan and/or coupe getting 70-85 mpg? Wow, ….I’ll say that backwards, WOW!
GM, build plug ins and spread the corporate mpg throughout your entire product range – take that, government mandates, and spreading 2 mode tech across the board only reduces total costs. Can you imagine Ford and Chrysler straining for years to catch up?
This is what I am saying. Please do not mistake my posts today for GM bashing – no way. What I am saying is GM just seems to be making those horrible choices when it has competitive advantage in the development stage. And in that, nothing’s changed from “old GM”, to “new GM”.
RECHARGE!
James
Jul 26th, 2010 (2:52 pm)Don’t forget to mention that your poor cats would starve as well. I think that qualifies as animal abuse on GM’s behalf, don’t you?
Jul 26th, 2010 (3:03 pm)That’s not a Walk Away price. That’s a “I won’t walk IN” price. There’s a difference (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
Jul 26th, 2010 (3:18 pm)HEY JIM, YOUR POLL IS UP!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****Victory Red, spring, 2011!
Jul 26th, 2010 (3:46 pm)Does that mean she’ll leave YOU and go with the Volt (or vice versa)? Since it is my wife who will be (primarily) driving our Volt, I had to ask.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (4:59 pm)Milestone passed. On the day before we all find out what the Volt will cost, our office solar array (installed approx 1st of the year) has offset the equivalent CO2 of 1000 gallons of gasoline NOT being burned. Get some solar PV, get your Volt and drive around with a zero footprint!
Enphase microinverters allow you to monitor your array from the Internet- or even your smartphone https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/3HnH2844 So with your smartphone, you’ll be able to know when the sun is giving you lots of juice and then tell your Volt to suck it up directly from the sun!! (Meet George Jetson…) The coolness factor is off the chart. These are indeed exciting times
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (5:10 pm)And to clarify further… when the Volt’s battery is depleted, it goes into a “hybrid” type of operation in that it also makes use of both a gasoline engine AND an electric drive train to achieve improved mpg ratings over conventional drive trains. Keep in mind that the plug-in VUE mpg achieved, like with the Volt, improves as the miles driven between charges becomes closer to that needed to discharge the battery. ….SO FOR A NORMAL DAILY RANGE OF 20 MILES THE VUE DRIVE TRAIN’S GAS CONSUMPTION WILL BE SMALL ….AND FOR DAILY TRIPS OF <10MILES (LIKE IN MY CASE), IT WILL USE ALMOST NO GASOLINE AT ALL!!!
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (5:23 pm)PS to my post #99: IOW, like the Volt, the plug-in VUE’s effective mpg is DRAMATICALLY IMPROVED while its battery remains in its useable 30-80% charge depletion range and its overall estimated mpg takes the fact that most daily trips are less than 40mi (and in my own case, most will be a much shorter 10mi) into the overall effective mpg achieved.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (5:52 pm)C’mon GM … make the MSRP of the Volt around $32,000 ($24,500 after federal tax credits). Shock the automotive world. Freak out the fat cat Middle East oil sheiks. Make the new CEO of BP choke on his coffee tomorrow morning when he hears about the price of the Volt.
+1
Jul 26th, 2010 (7:55 pm)At that price GM would be giving them away at a loss! They can’t afford to do that! They need to make as much money as they possible, can in order to rollout Gen2 as fast as possible…
GO EV!!!!
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:39 pm)Forget the Vue/Equinox. I really like that GMC Granite!
Plug in that with the 8 kwh and price it at about the same as the Volt MP5 (Granite has more up level trim). See which one gets plugged in more often and which one has the better sales numbers.
The winner goes into the greenhouse garage. (or does it?)
Jul 26th, 2010 (8:55 pm)Is it a Meriva, HHR2, Orlando, or all three?
The timing sure is right.
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/detroit-2010-gmc-granite-concept/#2608186imghttp://www.autoblog.com/photos/detroit-2010-gmc-granite-concept/#2608186/img
Jul 27th, 2010 (10:57 am)You picked a really bad time to pull the plug on the “Chevy Volt Standard Equipment” thread, Lyle. Granted there was a link to the probable price, and the news wasn’t good; but neither is this 11th hour shutdown.
Jackson