Ever since that day in January three and a half years ago when GM first introduced the Volt concept, one question has been by far the most frequently asked. How much?
Bob Lutz’ initial proclamation in those early days was that the car would list “comfortably under $30,000″ was met with great enthusiasm. Later, when the needle was moved closer to $40,000 complaints and sparks began to fly.
To this day we still don’t know how much the Volt will cost. Many speculative efforts have been made and the most recent consensus guess often repeated by the media is $35,000. Somehow this is believed to be a safe guess. I once was told in a personal communication by CEO Ed Whitacre, after he took the helm, that the car would be priced in the low 30s.
Now less than four months from launch, GM can’t hide the truth for much longer.
I recently had the chance to ask Volt marketing manager Tony DiSalle some questions about pricing.
How will you go about the pricing decision and why is it taking so long? You already announced the Cruze price which is coming out around the same time.
Cruze is actually coming out about a month, a month and a half earlier in October.
It’s interesting I’ve had that question asked a couple of times as to why we’re so late in announcing pricing. We are still way out ahead of launch of the vehicle. You’ll hear from us. Certainly sometime this summer, later this summer, we’ll be out there with the pricing announcement.
To answer your question, ‘what do you do to make that call?’ You try to look at all the factors and try to make a smart decision with a very specific strategy. Those are market factors and those are cost factors and where you think the future cost position of the technology is going to go, and all those kinds of things and weigh it all in.
Should the initial price be more of a wow factor because you’re not going to make money anyway, why not just lose a little more and that’s nice PR thing to do, versus actually trying to make money on each car you sell.
Honestly Lyle I can’t answer that question. We’re just a little deeper than I can go right now.
And the wait goes on…but at least now there are only about 40 to 60 days left.
This entry was posted on Thursday, July 22nd, 2010 at 6:21 am and is filed under Financial. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+4
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:26 am)Will certainly be good when this is announced. I think there is a lot riding on the price!
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:27 am)“Should the initial price be more of a wow factor because you’re not going to make money anyway, why not just lose a little more and that’s nice PR thing to do, versus actually trying to make money on each car you sell.
Honestly Lyle I can’t answer that question. We’re just a little deeper than I can go right now.”
Yeah of course he cant answer that question.. I bet GM is going to match the $32k price of the LEAF, or come close, BEFORE the Federal tax credit.. that will shut up a bunch of naysayers
+8
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:29 am)With the DC Chevy dealers already telling me they are going to put a 5-10K premium on the Volt the final price is going to be in the low – mid 40s, which is outside of my willingness to pay. It’s too bad. Guess I’ll be looking at Gen 2 Volt.
+13
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:32 am)The first year of production is going to sell out at any price, let’s face it. However in order to continue to sell the car in large numbers as production increases it needs to be under 30K after the $7,500 rebate. The economy is still in the tank and who knows where it will be in the next 18 months or so. Over $30,000 will make lots of folks realize it’s out of reach for them and. This can’t be a “rich mans car”
+9
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:35 am)I’m hanging in there. Are we almost there yet? …Mom …Daddy??
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:36 am)Per Bill #3 & Tom M #4 – Definitely over $40K with dealer markup & taxes. Hopefully within 5K of the LEAF, but even at this price 10,000 units will sell fast!
GO EV!!!
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:37 am)FUTURE COST POSITION OF THE TECHNOLOGY
FUTURE COST POSITION OF THE TECHNOLOGY
I think there is a lot of meaning here. They don’t want to price the car for $40K today and then sell it for $30K 3 years from now. That will piss off today’s customer. I have been in the $37,499 price camp for some time but this statement may mean the price will be more like $34,999. Of course, he may be referring to post-rebate and what price they will have to sell at then to be profitible given the then current technology costs. I’m thinking this statement is more likely putting downward pressure on the Volt’s initial price.
+6
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:38 am)GM should do whatever it can to prevent dealers from charging more than list, restrict delivery if necessary ,some dealers dont deserve to have the GM franchise.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:38 am)No fee is too big.
Thanks Lyle for asking. I am as curious as everyone else.
I strongly believe this car needs to be priced for the masses inorder to get wide adoption.
10,000 cars the first year will prove to be very anemic, although I think the slow roll out is smart from a testing perspective.
+6
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:44 am)Finding another dealer is a good option too.
Of course I think many of us will end up having to wait for the Volt. The numbers just are not there and they will be snapped up quickly.
+4
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:46 am)Not much info here…..
130 days till launch… 10 days over 4 months, and were still talking about WHEN the price will be announced.
In all honesty i can’t imagine this is a good thing. If they were gonna wow anybody with a low price they should of done it with the Volt Freedom Drive…. Instead they are saying less now about price then ever before. At least in my opinion the closer we get the worse it is for the consumer.
Note to Ed Whitacre & GM Board of directors:
You once wanted to throw a Billion dollars at the Volt team to “get it out sooner”. Take that billion dollars and spend 250 million right now on a heavy Volt marketing campaign. Then take the other 750million and take 5K off whatever price you had in mind. (hoping it was $37,500). That puts the Volt at the same price as the Leaf…… and with 750 million you can discount the first 150K volts, which at the production levels your talking about will put you at Gen 4 before you sell that many…… But you could always ramp up
+33
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:49 am)Personally, I think that GM has *much* more to gain by going low with the price than going high. Given the very limited numbers being released in year one, GM CAN’T lose too much money on the Volts sold that year. Wouldn’t it be better to have the general public’s first impression be “Gee, when they make more of those, I’d consider it” than “Holy cow, that car is only for RICH people, – it’s out of the question! First impressions *are* important!
People need to know that GM is sensitive to how hard things are right now financially AND that GM knows that the *citizens* helped them out!
Bite the bullet, GM and take the long view! It will pay off in the end.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
+4
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:55 am)Overall, I agree with this. BUT the losses will add up, even in the beginning. If GM were to lose $7500 per car for the first two years that would be $225,000,000 for 30K cars. Remember, GM is pre-IPO right now.
+4
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:01 am)This is short-term thinking. Maybe it”ll be Gen II before that profit, but where would the Prius be if they hadn’t been willing to invest (lose) money up front initially?
Be well,
Tagamet
+6
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:08 am)Re: Bill Marshes comments on dealer mark-ups: Since I don’t live in one of the initial markets, I’ll probably have to wait until 2012 to get a Volt. If some dealers are going to try to steal money with huge mark-ups over the ‘retail” price, I can only hope that practice has ended by the time my Volt arrives. I’m willing to pay a fairly high price for the Volt, but I will NOT allow myself to be ripped off be dealers. Most of the people reading this will be too young to remember, but there was a time that Honda dealers added $3000 in “handling fees” just because they could. I did not buy a Honda then for just that reason. Any dealer willing to play those games is a dealer I cannot trust down the road. If GM lets that practice become widespread it will certainly hurt Volt sales both in the near and far term.
As to price, I’m betting on mid-thirties, especially because as production costs go down, GM will not want to reduce the price too much, making the early and even the “midterm” adapters feel like fools. At that price point, the car will be affordable to a large number of people after the $7500 tax credit, and yet still seem like a “premium” car.
+4
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:10 am)I’m expecting an MSRP of ~35k. GM should make a small profit, even at this price.
However, they seem to be really anxious to get to Gen II. Then they will offer some added features (sunroof, etc., some as added price options), maybe a slight improvement in performance, and still keep the price in the mid-30’s.
The big difference is that Gen II will be less costly to manufacture, and their profits will increase.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:14 am)Will they also annouce options/package pricing? Will it even matter as will anyone even have a choice about options the first 2 years, or will it be “Just be happy you got a Volt” scenario?
+7
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:18 am)$37,499 gets the price under $30K after the federal tax credit. So that’s my vote.
The dealer I’m planning to buy from isn’t planning to charge over list. If yours is talking about gouging on price, talk to other dealers until you find one who isn’t. Do it now while their lists are still shorter than their initial allocations.
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:19 am)The price will be announced September 23d, give or take.
+7
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:20 am)I don’t think early adopters should feel foolish for paying more. That’s is the cost of being first. This happens with everything. However, to me, its a different scenario if dealers are gouging versus GM trying to just break even on their technology investment. Those dealers are just opportunists, and the extra money isn’t being directly invested back into the next gen tech.
+4
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:20 am)“Shut up and stop teasing your sister! Do NOT make me stop this car….!!” (g)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+7
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:22 am)I agree completely, Tag! And I also think the announced Nissan option to roll the federal $7.5k rebate into a lease deal sets an important precedent —given the Volt’s unquestionably longer battery lifetime, how could GM NOT respond by also offering a similar “rebate-reduced” lease deal?!? And considering that most prospects are heavily influenced by what their monthly payments will be (I certainly am!), this could make the Volt more affordable than many of us may presently anticipate.
Can either of the dealers here (CorvetteGuy or LeoK) comment on whether they think Volts will be available on “$7.5k rebate-reduced” lease deals such as will presumably be offered for the LEAF?
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:23 am)Amen! It’s a huge psychological edge for that initial price to be SUB-30K post tax break.
+1
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:26 am)First, Kudos to Lyle for asking all the right questions! Excellent job!
At this point, I have to say I’m tired of the guessing game. We’ll see what the price is soon enough.
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:27 am)+1 to you JonP
GM can capture more flies with honey than vinegar.
The lower the price, the better. GM really needs to blow away the competition with
quality, reliability, and price.
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:28 am)The entire auto industry is seeking to gain momentum. When the iMiEV came out at around $50k the initial reaction was, “Aw, too bad. Will never be able to buy one of those”. Pricing is a very important factor in long term success.
=D-Volt
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:30 am)I’m still hoping for a cost on the lower end of the estimates (32k pre-rebate would be great).
GM has consistently said the Volt program has had very few issues, and has stayed on track schedule-wise rather well.
At some level, that should translate to a decent amount of development money that was unspent (potentially millions). It seems like that could also be factored in to effectively lower per vehicle cost for Gen1 in a way similar to what JonP suggested in #11.
join thE REVolution
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:34 am)This is true for consumer electronics, but not for cars.
People expect the price of a car to stay about the same. That’s how it’s always been.
If GM prices the Volt high initially, people will write totally write it off, and not bother checking the price later.
What’s more, the $7500 tax credit will run out sooner or later, so by the time the internal costs have come down, the end user price will be about the same.
+6
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:37 am)The fully loaded Prius comes in at around 33K. If you can beat that with the tax credit I think you will be sold out for years to come. I see just as many 32-33K prii driving around as i do see the 25k Prii…
One additional thought, maybe they should work with finance groups to try and get 2 loans, one loan will be a low interest loan for 7500 due in full after April 15, and the other would be the price difference. The finance companies would make a few dollars on the interest for the 7500, and the buyer would not have to worry about carrying the additional monthly payments for the life of the loan. Perhaps even an interest only loan on the 7500 so the buyer only pays interest due until they recieve their tax credit.
Think about it GM!
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:01 am)I have no crystal ball on a VOLT lease – but with Nissan offering to ‘roll in’ the $7,500 federal tax rebate, I expect GM would work to match it. This brings up a big issue for GM: they sold control of their own finance subsidiary, GMAC, and now must operate using outside consumer finance sources. No big deal – credit is certainly very available right now and at historically low rates – BUT… when you want to structure a unique deal, as this lease would be, it might be tougher. Nissan has their own in-house finance subsidiary. I still think GM will figure it out – either with Ally Bank, US Bank, or another big lender.
I believe there are BIG benefits to GM to getting a fair number of early VOLT’s leased. 1) it allows predictable ownership for the first 3 years (prevents a buy and flip on eBay scenario) 2) it allows GM to stay in touch with that consumer better 3) by offering a lease it can allow GM to create a more favorable ‘affordability’ impression with future VOLT customers.
There is no absolute right or wrong answer when it comes to buy vs. lease ….. in fact, I’ve said many early adaptors will buy just because they’ve been waiting so long they’ve saved up enough money! But offering a lease that is reduced by the Federal rebate may start to swing the decision making….
+10
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:05 am)Did Toshiba release a new model 4head VCR the same year they began to sell the first DVD players? I think not. They were probably liquidating their VCR inventory to make room for DVD manufacturing. GM better plan ahead. They’ll probably want to keep a few ICE only vehicles in their lineup. Remember GM you don’t plan to fail, you fail to plan.
I leave you with this short story.
One bright summer morning, two young brothers set out from their farm house to make lives for themselves. Both brothers had been given three egg laying hens and a rooster to start their own egg farms. Before going their separate ways, the brothers promised their parents they’d be back to visit every year for the Holidays. In the fall they came home to celebrate Thanksgiving with their parents. One brother arrived well dressed in a beautiful four horse wagon and the other brother arrived in farming cloths by horse. Seeing the difference, the father asked the each how the egg farming business was going. The brother in faming cloths complained. He tried to sell his eggs for $1 each and no one bought any. When he lowered his price to 2 for $1 no customers came to his farm. The second well dressed brother told his father he was doing very well with the egg farm. He explained how he gave away eggs the first week in order to establish a rapport with his neighbors then he began to charge $1 per dozen. His customer buy eggs every week.
Moral of the story?
Getting rich quick sometimes requires losing money at first.
Or
Don’t over price your product or you’ll lose customers forever.
NPNS!
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:06 am)I hope the idea of Volt being a benefit for the country in terms of oil independence, and not just a “New Camaro” type of car will have some bearing on the price. ie: It gives no benefit to oil independence, if only a few can buy it.
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:09 am)The excitement is surely building. I think I am going to burst. Still and all with a 10% pay cut announced for all of my fellow county employees starting in October, I am going to be limited to a certain monthly payment. Oh, but I would hate to give up my Volt.
Take Care,
TED
+9
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:09 am)Slightly OT, yet timely regarding 2011 model pricing: Lincoln has just announced that the pricing of the 2011 Lincoln MKZ hybrid will be sold at NO price premium over their cheapest conventional MKZ. The MKZ hybrid will start at $35,180, including destination and delivery,
the same price as their front wheel drive 3.5-liter V6 model. Since many prospects will look simplistically at the Volt as a non-luxury hybrid, this announcement alone almost forces GM
to keep the base Volt price comfortably under $32K (before any rebates).
BTW, the MKZ hybrid gets an EPA-certified 41 mpg —6 mpg better than the Lexus HS 250h hybrid— and it isn’t a bad looking car either….
+6
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:10 am)I really hate paying a “Dealer Markup”. There is plenty of money to be made incorporated into the MSRP. However, when I lived in California in the 80s, all of the dealers in my area had dealer markups. There was no other place to go if you wanted a new car. Why did they add that? It was because they could and the buyers payed it. That is the free market system.
I don’t think that it is gouging. My definition of gouging may be a bit strict but I think that gouging is when you raise the price of something that people absolutely need. Food and water during an emergency or gasoline during an evacuation. That’s gouging and it is illegal. Charging $100 for a Tickle Me Elmo is mean but nobody really needs a Tickle Me Elmo. Nor does anybody really need a Volt. If somebody else wants that Volt more than you do, they’ll find a way to get it.
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:10 am)I don’t think the initial price matters at all. Simply because they can change the price at any time.
Whether they sell it for 40,000 – 7,500 or 30,000 – 7,500 it will not make any difference.
Whatever they announce on Sept 1 won’t matter if on March 1st they change the price.
If the list it for 40k on Sept 1 everyone will complain but they’ll sell the first 4,000 cars regardless.
Then on March 1 2011 they can change the price to $34,000 and people will be thrilled.
Then on June 1 2012 they can announce a ramp up of production and a base price of $29,000.
My point is no matter what they do this summer and how it is perceived won’t matter 6 months and 18 months from now.
What does matter regarding the price now is if they price it NOW what they think they can sell it for in 2013, they will start to get an idea of the demand for this car. Then they can use that information to start ramping up their production accordingly.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:11 am)“I bet GM is going to match the $32k price of the LEAF, or come close” it has to cost more than the LEAF, the extended range engine/management will come at some cost and rightly so, this is what divides these first two cars.
I want it now………..
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:11 am)Back in the good old days of economic sanity, price was primarily a function of cost and demand. With over a billion dollars in development costs and a very limited production scheduled for a seemingly high demand, one would think Volt would be very expensive.
Of course, in this situation there is federal assistance with the price amounting to $7500 that will help to lower the bottom line price.
So how much is GM willing to loose in launching this new revolution?
What is that halo worth to GM? That’s where this pricing exercise gets complicated.
And unless you happen to live in a Volt launch area, the introductory pricing is immaterial.
Kinda like hearing that Angelina Jolie is back on the market.
Its fun to fanticize, but not likely to effect me directly.
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:15 am)2011 $50000 A special price for the special groups (government, celebrities and enthusiasts) and this high price could hinder the bad publicity of gouging. From feedback decision made on production levels for Gen II.
2012 $35000 A little lower to wet the general public’s interst and ensure that the planned 30000 are sold. Decisions made on Gen II design.
2013 $30000 Generation II This is the REAL Volt, no longer an adjusted Cruze, with batteries under floor, 5 seater, optimized battery, solar roof.
Competitors, either 250 mile range BEV, or other energy efficient hybrids will be there from 2015. So GM has from 2013 until 2018 to make a name with high sales of the Volt. Howver as battery prices come done there will plenty of room for spin-offs and a BEV Volt. The Gen II Volt to have been designed from the outset to be either EREV OR eventually without ICE as a BEV thus solving GM’s problem of BEV entry vehicle.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:17 am)AP Thursday July 22, 2010, 8:08 am EDT
General Motors to buy AmeriCredit Corp. for $3.5B
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GM-to-buy-AmeriCredit-to-apf-507453632.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=4&asset=&ccode=
ACF up $4.35 in pre-market trading
=D-Volt
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:19 am)You beat me too it… So apparently they will again have their own finance arm!
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:22 am)Tagamet post #12 , I also agree !!!
Todays news housing market moving into a second slow down that is going to pull the rest of the economy in to a double dip recession, to see the future just look to the past . The current Administration is following the same play book that FDR used if things and policies don’t change soon look for 10 more years of double digit unemployment and recession as far as the eye can see.
So keeping the Volts price Low is Key !!!
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:24 am)Volt cost = Actual cost of parts & labor to build each unit = known
R&D cost known but how many units can this be amortized over unknown
Warranty costs unknown
Profit or loss unknown without total number on units built.
Plus lots of costs I don’t even know about.
So how do you come up with a price ?
Tom
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:25 am)THANKS, LeoK! This is very reassuring coming from you, especially after discovering Lincoln’s pricing announcement for their 2011 hybrid MKS (see my post #34 here) which is bound to affect both the Volt’s and Leaf’s marketability somewhat.*
*I’d NEVER even consider an ugly duckling like the Leaf when I could buy a gorgeous swan like the MKS hybrid for $35,180!
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:26 am)GM could wait as late as October to make an announcement. What’s to stop them from delaying?
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:27 am)Well cars are sort of turning into consumer electronics.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:28 am)Lyle,
For some reason this post has one of the best looking Volt photos ever.
Maybe its the lack of blacked out panels or the wheels.
But this view is stunning. Great looking car!
(It looks not at all like a beached catfish or a Japanese suppository.)
GO VOLT!
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:29 am)The $50,000k price point could taint the General Public, the trolls would have a hayday, better to plan long term than to book a short term profit in this situation.
The 35K would be good, I would like to see the price at 35K MSRP then drop the price after the tax credit expires.
“This is the REAL Volt, no longer an adjusted Cruze” – I really dont look at the car as an “adjusted Cruze” They use the same platform but that is it. Look back at GM’s history and you will find this over and over, S10 – Sonoma – Hombre, (even H3 is old S10 frame). Bravada-envoy-blazer, Firebird-camaro, Sunfire-cavaleer, colorado-canyon, even Vibe – Toyota Matrix – etc. etc. etc.
If you would call a Toyota Matrix an Adjusted Vibe or vice versa, then you can make this statement fair.
Sharing a platform does not make the car the same, i think visually they are very distinct differences and although simmilar in size I doubt they will be confused.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:32 am)Dealer Markup will be a deal killer for me and I will just wait until the demand drops to where the greedy dealers can’t use this tactic anymore. My TDI has 146k on the clock with no signs of giving up anytime soon, so I can wait.
Let’s all hope GM will discourage this tactic when allocations are handed out.
+7
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:42 am)Ah, today’s discussion creates a huge dilemma! What will Lyle write about, and all of us comment on, once the official price of the VOLT is announced? Here’s a top 10 List:
10. Should the VOLT key fob be made anatomically correct for a left-handed or right-handed driver?
9. Is it politically correct to continue pulling into my local gas station with my VOLT every Friday night, even though I don’t need any gas, just to say hi to the guys that work there?
8. As GM expands VOLT production capacity, will they look to recruit new factory workers from the oil refineries in NJ, LA, and other places as they won’t have as much work to do there?
7. Will GM offer different horn ’sounds’ on the VOLT?
6. As a theft deterrent, can GM build in an electric shock mechanism into the front seat to stun an intruder without the proper keyless remote?
5. Since I can drive my 40 mile daily commute without burning any gas, can I use my bicycle as a trade-in toward my VOLT at my local Chevy Dealer?
4. Will I be able to send out tweets using the center console touch-screen display on my new VOLT?
3. Since I live 22 miles from the closest HUGE shopping mall, is it OK if I just tell my wife that the VOLT can travel 40 miles on a charge, thus the maximum range from home is 20 miles?
2. Based on experience, appeal, and pro EV work to date, which is more likely to be driving a new VOLT: Jay Leno, David Letterman, or Oprah Winfrey?
1. In 5 years, when teenage America is all driving EV’s, what will happen to the local ‘gas station’ hangouts across the country? Perhaps they can become email pals with all those Middle Eastern kids whose parents can no longer afford to take them on vacation to Dubai.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:43 am)If I can’t have the options I want, then I won’t order. I’m hoping for a Volt SS trim in the 2012 model year. If that doesn’t happen, I can wait (or buy something else).
I am not interested in a 2011 (first year) model. I’ll let some other people do the trek back to the dealership for the fixes that will be needed. And, I’m thinking quite a few especially in the software.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:49 am)Speaking of financing, GM just bought a sub-prime lender – AmeriCredit for $3.5B cash.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/business/23autos.html?src=busln
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:49 am)I just do not agree with comparing the Volt to the Leaf for pricing purposes.
They are completely different.
The Leaf is a BEV low range commuter vehicle. (And really ugly IMHO)
The Volt has none of those disadvantages, but many more advantages.
So the fact that we want it to be priced at under $30K after tax rebate, really has nothing to do with what it must be priced at by GM.
IMHO, whatever the price is, it will be reduced by $7.5K when the rebate is over…..
All we can do is wait, which is what we have been doing for over 2.5 years now!!!
And BTW, is it just me, or is this another long winded statement by Mr. DiSalle that said absolutely nothing?????
NPNS
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:52 am)Here is a price to beat:
Here’s a bit of shocking news and possibly an industry first: Ford is pricing the new Lincoln’s new MKZ Hybrid exactly the same as its gasoline version — $35,180 including destination fees.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/07/sticker-shocker-lincoln-mkz-hybrid-priced-same-as-gas-version/1
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:55 am)Suggesting that the Volt price be comparable to another kind of car doesn’t make much sense.
Knowing what the future cost of technology will become just might be a bigger part of todays price than we think. Not the cost of the Leaf or the Prius, the cost of the Volt.
There’s a lot going for the Volt on the manufacturing end. GM is also lucky to have existing components to save design time (not so much to save manufacturing cost, but to market time). The next step belongs to Ed Whitacre.
We know what we’re getting with the first model. Gen II development is well under way and how that development is coming along is one of the strongest factors in today’s price.
+7
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:59 am)No matter what price they hang on it, unhappy consumers will take out their frustrations on the dealers, not GM.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:59 am)I get the strategy then Herm. Price Gen1 the same as what you think gen2 can sell for with a reasonable profit. Just cut back on the number of Gen1’s so you don’t lose too much money.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:03 am)#34 Nasaman,
Great post.
I’m imagining a similar Cadillac with 40 mile AER with the same price strategy.
But it will probably be 2012, arrgh… the waiting!
Ford should suffer for being so non-committal to AER cars.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:03 am)swing-and-a-miss NASAMAN #34 beat me…
oops
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:09 am)+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:12 am)Wow! Big news…. My comment at #30 was appropriate: “This brings up a big issue for GM: they sold control of their own finance subsidiary, GMAC, and now must operate using outside consumer finance sources.”
It will be interesting to watch market reaction…. as we all know perception = reality. If this move helps GM get one step closer to an IPO – and ultimately ad more $$$ through an IPO than the cost of the acquisition, then the deal is a smart move.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:16 am)Yes, and no production ramp up till gen2.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:21 am)I also wonder, if i buy a Volt, and after 4-5 years the batteries are so much better, can I trade-in/upgrade my battery? What would the pricing look like on something like that? $6000 including labor?
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:21 am)Price is going to be a BIG issue for a lot of people… Canada does not have the $7500 rebate…
To be priced competitively…look a look at the numbers…
Toyota Prius… $ 33 – 37 K (Canadian)
2011 Ford Fusion Hybrid (Loaded) $ 37 K Canadian
2011 Lincoln Hybrid Starting at $35 K (and they don’t come “bare bones”
I have the 2010 Fusion Hybrid…. am averaging over 50 MPG (lifetime) (Canadian) since August of last year and that includes our Canadian winter…28,700 KMS so far.
The Volt is also going to have to perform as stated … close to 40 Miles (75 KMS) on initial charge and it will HAVE to maintain at least 45 – 50 MPG (Canadian )
AND Still be priced to compete with the other “Hybrids/Electric” cars arriving this fall..
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:33 am)Interesting question because options can play a big role in the pricing. The Leaf just has two trim levels and the difference in price is only about $1000. But GM could come up with a lowball initial price and then raise the MSRP by treating what many might think are standard equipment as options. Tesla has certainly gone this route. The Roadster is nominally a $100+K car but after adding “options” like charging cords you end up with a $125K car. We’ll just have to see how this works out.
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:36 am)I doubt that hybrid pricing will have that much of an impact on EV pricing — different products in my mind — but it will be interesting to see how many people opt for the hybrid version given the absence of a price premium. Very interesting scenario which should prove illuminating as to the true demand for higher mileage cars.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:48 am)I’m about the cheapest SOB you’d ever meet when it comes to cars. My Tacoma is the stripped-down model with crank windows and cloth covered seats. It was $11,000 back in 96′. I live in the Bay Area where people routinely blow 50-70k on a Bimmer or Audi. Thus I have rather strong feelings about vehicle pricing. $30k to me is an expensive car. $40k is definitely out of the question and especially if the car looks like an econo-car.
But realistically I suppose I’m not your typical American car buyer and 30k would definitely be within the realm of acceptability. But if we’re talking more like 35,36, or 37k then forget it. The consumer will reject that price.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:02 am)Considering they are only making a few thousand in 2011, they could sell them at 50 grand and still go through their inventory. Hopefully the 2012 models are reasonably priced in the $30,000 range…
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:10 am)Doesn’t sound very “official”
+4
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:12 am)I’m pretty sure that goes both ways. It’s not like people have a problem hating GM…
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:20 am)Well, I just read that some law firm is launching an investigation as to whether Americredit’s board of directors “breached their fiduciary duty to shareholders” by agreeing to the deal…
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bernstein-Liebhard-LLP-bw-656085956.html?x=0&.v=1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:22 am)You hit the nail right on the head with that one.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:24 am)I remember GM said they would price the Volt depending on the price of gas. That was a little over a year ago probably, prices were swinging wildly back then, they’ve been pretty stable now. I bet we’ll see $40k with $32.5k after rebate as Whitacre said.
The science of economics, ie supply and demand are pretty immutable (to the chagrin of some heavy liberals who think there’s unlimited doctors or tax income etc.). Whether GM raises the MSRP, or the dealers mark up, or someone flips them on eBay because there are bidding wars because of the shortage, the end price will be what it will be. Then as you increase demand (ie roll out to new cities, states, and countries) you are going to raise that price as well because there are more rich people that are now able to buy it simply because of geographical availability/convenience.
Obviously GM wants to set one price and leave it there for the duration of Gen 1. Gen 2 will probably see a price reduction. As Lyle points out, the critics will be held more in check when they see a low 30’s price range, and practically muted if it’s sub 30k (after rebate). I would guess there are at least 50,000 early adopters in the US willing to pay quite a premium for the Volt, so they’ll sell out at any price (within reason) for all of Gen 1 methinks. I say Gen 2 will be reduced anyway because after Gen 1 is over, they’re going to have to have a price that can attract non early adopters and be adjusted for reduced tax credit.
It’s a tough call, especially pre-IPO. Say they could sell out all of their production at $43k pre-rebate and instead they price it for $37k pre-rebate, GM can’t pretend that if they are planning on selling 10k Volts in 2011, 30k in 2012, and another 30k in 2013, that’s 70,000 cars that they could’ve marked up another $6,000, that’s nearly half a billion off their bottom line they’re giving up that people are going to have pay somehow anyway. That half billion could go into making better Voltecs down the road. They really need to make hay while the sunshines, because those early adopters will soon have much more selection, and the federal rebates won’t be around forever, and then the Volts going to have to stand on its own.
I kind of think they should charge at least $40k for the base model and go from there, and that’s probably what they’ll do.
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:31 am)But the Volt is new technology with a lot of brand new custom parts. Which means the first ones are going to be more expensive to make. I agree there’s a difference between paying a price premium to be first with a car, as opposed to being the first to have an iphone. Because it is a much bigger ticket item. But the cost structure is the same.
This is why new technology is usually introduced first in the luxury brand. Think of it as buying a Cadillac to get a specific feature that later becomes standard on all Chevy models. Or a Lexus to get a feature that later becomes standard on all Toyotas.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:36 am)I suspect the big questions will be a)Gen 1 Volt availability, and b) the launch date and price of gen 2.
Aside from those two big questions, there are active Camaro and Prius boards. Both cars have been out for ages, and are readily available at your local dealership.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:41 am)#5
“Are we almost out of gas? (with that little tiny tank)” “Can we stop and go to the bathroom?” LOL! +1
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:49 am)I feel like one piece that we may not be factoring in is the fact that the government has given GM a lot of money for development of cars like the Volt. I would be willing to bet that the Volt development wasn’t that expensive once the incentives and grants are factored in for building things like the battery manufacturing facility.
join thE REVolution
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:49 am)It better be reasonable or I will buy from Hyundai, I truly believe Hyundai will be leading Plug in vehicle in the near future.
-11
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:50 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:50 am)As far as what the customer is going to have to pay to ensure getting a Volt, unless you have a binding cantract with a Dealer already for MSRP I think you will have to pay around 40K anyway. The lower GM sets the MSRP, the higher the Dealer mark up will be from even higher demand because of reasonable price for now for this kind of EV. If the MSRP is closer to 40K, then the Dealers will have less room to mark up but will still get the price up to 40K if they want too. GM has 200K EV’s they can build before needing the price exactly where it needs to be and the 7,500 tax rebate expires. Gen. II Volt needs to be at the right price reguardless of tax rebate. If Gen. II Volt has a smaller battery, it may not qualify for the 7,500 tax credit. It’s possible that it might only qualify for the tax credit less than half of that. If the CS mode mpg comes in around 38 mpg, “what I predicted months ago” it may not prove to be the best combination for electric drive especially if the battery capacity is lowered to less all electric drive range. There is more competition with different concepts and stratagies on the horizon, so GM better make their adjustments and concept changes for
Gen II to try to have the most efficient power train drive combination at the RIGHT PRICE. Good luck with that.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:51 am)Stay on them Lyle!! Thanks,
Go EV’s!!!
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:56 am)The more important question is where will GM be able to sell the VOLT? And at what price? While we give Nissan and all others $7500 per car … how much tariff are they going to put on our vehicles?
That is the dicussion we should be having. How much will the VOLT cost in Japan?
We know GM will be selling a version of the VOLT in CHINA ..which is a good thing.
How much will the Volt be in GERMANY and Korea… those are better questions.
If we don’t get those questions asked.. there will be no GM or FORD. We already lost Chrysler and other great brands like Pontiac and Saturn… we better start asking the important questions.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:56 am)+1 – The Volt is a different class of automobile than the LEAF or FocusEV or any BEV that comes around. It’s too early to know just how important this difference will be to the buying public; to know how much of an upcharge they would be willing to pay to have an electric car with cross-country versatility versus one that is limited to in-town use.
I believe GM can get away with selling the Volt at a premium over the LEAF and other BEV’s, but only if they have a strategy and a message that ensure buyers buy into and link up the Volt EREV advantages with its higher price point. This will require creating in buyer’s minds a distinct separation between the Volt and its EREV cousins, that the Volt represents a superior design concept.
My hunch is that the market will accept a price premium for EREVs over BEVs. For the Volt, I see a $35k price point as market acceptable. As someone else said earlier, a loaded Prius comes in at $33k. The Volt is new tech; the Prius old tech. The Volt can do all that a Prius can do, and more.
The same cannot be said for the LEAF or any other BEV. Unlike the Volt and Prius, BEVs operate with a leash attached. Buyers will face making significant and not necessarily welcomed changes in their relationship with their car.
At $33k the LEAF is going to hit market resistance after the initial wave of early adopters subsides. Because of their limitations I don’t see BEVs successfully impacting the market at anywhere but at the lower price levels. It will be a task to get people to overcome their fears and reservations about BEV limitations which can only be done if BEVs are priced at a level which makes people think hard about actually buying one. I see this point reached only if BEV pricing – with tax credits subtracted – is at the same, or just below the lowest priced car in that given BEV’s size class. It may take 10 years before people realize that the BEV advantages outweigh BEV disavantages, but this has to be done if BEVs are to take hold and endure as a market segment.
Now back to the Volt – the Volt’s real target is the Toyota Prius, the current Queen of Green but whose crown has been tarnished by Toyota’s recent image problems. Putting the Volt at a $35-37k price point minus tax credits would place it in the Prius’ ballpark, and that happens to be the perfect place where GM needs it to be.
+5
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:06 am)Just sell the Volt already! Daaaaaaaang!
Hurry up and sell out all of Gen1!!!
I can’t afford Gen1 and I wont be able to afford jackdidly till Gen2. So hurry up and sell out Gen1 so we can see what is in store for Gen 2!
lol…
/gonna walk over to the liqa store for a bottle of Kahlua for me coffee.
//got a few xtra $$$ for overtime
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:12 am)You mean what You’re going to pay on your electric bill. My solar electric system (that was partially paid for by you since I got over a $20,000 rebate) generates all my home electricity and enough to charge a Volt and a pure EV. Thank you Anthroprogenic Man!
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:15 am)If you are really worried about future battery advancement, that is a real reason to seriously look at your leasing options for a VOLT. No one can predict if the next generation of batteries will be interchangable with Gen1 VOLT LiIon batteries.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:18 am)Lyle,
interesting conversation with Tony DiSalle. Looks like that’s about as much context and “depth” as we’ll get without GM believing they’ve pre-announced their entire strategic pricing position as you could get now.
Though I would have titled the article, “July 22nd and still no price.” However, the Cruze price was announced and it is launching in October, a month and a half before the Volt.
fiduciary duties - I remember when people had those. Seems like a long time since I’ve heard anything like that though.
I would agree with that one. I’d add that people are conditioned to expect prices for cars to rise slightly year by year. Though a lower priced “Gen II” could be called something other than Volt and marketed as a higher tech lower cost alternative to the “Gen I” original.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:23 am)For whatever it’s worth, I think it’s ridiculous. They offered a substantial premium over the closing price.
But clearly someone thinks it’s a good deal for GM…
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:51 am)Senate Energy & Natural Resources Committee approves a bill to fund $3.9B over 10 years to build EV infrastructure….
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100721/OEM/100729961/1186
Headline reads “Half of U.S. Vehicles would be Electrified by 2030 under proposed House Bill”
I’m all for adapting a positive, long-range national energy policy geared toward getting off foreign oil….but our government needs to start learning its not just about printing more money! There are far better ways to develop policy than constantly passing bills that just spend money.
Just as this site has done for the VOLT, perhaps its time for a National Blog on energy policy that hashes around all the issues and develops creative ideas that build consensus on the subject.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:55 am)Ontario has rebates and other provinces will probably offer a similar plan.
http://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2010/06/ontario-paves-the-way-for-electric-vehicles.html
40 miles is around 64kms, not 75kms.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:59 am)I’d like to make a deposit at my local dealer, who’s asking $500. The people at the dealership have pledged not to go over MSRP, which is great, but I’m holding off on making a deposit out of fear that MSRP will be high.
+11
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:03 pm)I’m certainly no marketer (though I *used* to be a Mouseketeer), I think that the longer GM waits to release the MSRP, the more likely that it will be stunningly *low* To wait and say $40K (or worse), would just lead to cries of *see*???? – way too expensive. The advantage of waiting until the last minute to release incredibly good news (to go hand-in-hand with the CS mpg), is to increase their momentum toward the Volt’s release date and provide a coup d’état to any late-comers to the party. JM(ever-optimistic)O.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:13 pm)Hi, New American Resistance @ 79, I am with you as far as acknowledging that the left has hijacked the environmental movement to gain political power and establish a bigger more tyrannical government.
But electric cars do help the environment. First if we burn less gas, we put less air pollutants into the air we breath. Second if we end our foreign oil addiction, the money we are shipping overseas might be used to clean up America. Not to mention the gulf of Mexico, and all the pollution that is curtailing fishing.
The electric battery, or electric energy storage device, or any sort, is not quite where it needs to be to end our dependence on foreign oil. But if Nissan and hopefully others like LG, can produce a 250 wh/kg battery by 2013, we would have the technology to end our addiction and win the war we have been in since the 1970’s.
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:17 pm)May the Car Gods make it so!
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:22 pm)Lyle, do you have plans for a more interactive web page to track member’s car data?
Perhaps a page that tracks what dealers are charging what. What people are paying.
That way, we can show the world, GM and everyone else just what is being charged, or over charged.
Transparency is good. The Internet makes it easy, well, maybe not so much so for Lyle.
+3
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:29 pm)Yes I have. Cutting out gas use for passenger cars and creating incentives that allow OEM’s to build industries to compete with Chinese made products will put billions of dollars that would have been sent overseas into the pockets, and investment accounts, of my neighbors, employers, friends and relatives.
Of course we could roll your way and eliminate anything that stops unfettered free enterprise by… Letting the chips fall where they may, while China games the system, tilts the board and creates the industries that will supply car makers and other manufacturers in perpetuity. Yes we could ignore the incipient needs of ground breaking new technology and instead let the Saudi Royal family and Hugo Chavez to keep getting profoundly more powerful while wringing us for every dollar they can in perpetuity. Your “plan” = whining about government being too big while China and OPEC eat your lunch before you even wake up to get breakfast.
Though I agree that when congress funds pork, it’s an inefficient transfer of taxpayer dollars. Though you can’t stop politicians from being politicians, at least those dollars could potentially stay in the country, if people are willing to invest in better technologies. And government will always just plain waste money, though fundamentally you may just be barking up the wrong tree. Without the Pentagon and Homeland Security, Social Security and Medicare, the Federal Government begins to look the like size of the governments in Africa and Latin America. And most of those guys aren’t exactly competing on equal footing with the US.
Sincerely, Anthropoeconomic man.
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:31 pm)But the Cruze has been on sale in Europe for some time now. It seems that would make it easy to establish a price for the USA. Personally, I would love to see a $35,000 (before rebates) price on a VOLT and have nice wait list going as they ramp up production.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:40 pm)They also have to time things right to go with their IPO. If they appear to be giving the store away prior to IPO, that could be bad. Flipside, they could appear to be aggressively competitive.
Appearance is sometimes more damaging (or helpful) than actual facts.
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:42 pm)A day without Kahlua is like a day without sunshine
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:48 pm)… and it might have a more reasonable control panel, as well.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:49 pm)If you really believe that the environment isn’t in any danger, I suggest you buy some beach front property in Florida facing the gulf of Mexico. It’s absolutely gorgeous there. Or at least it was. And I’m pretty sure you can pick it pretty cheaply right about now.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (1:36 pm)Yawn. I guess there’s no news today.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (1:44 pm)Optimisitic!? Wow, is that an understatement if I have ever seen one.
I certainly hope you are correct.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (1:47 pm)Global warming is a fact.
EESTOR is for real guys.
Earthquakes, volcanoes, Lindsay Lohan in jail, Hell frozen over.
It all points to EESTOR being real. Then the prices will drop.
I’m bored. Can you tell?
Jul 22nd, 2010 (1:50 pm)Thinking like this is not fair to Florida. Almost all of the Florida Gulf Coast is fine, no oil. In fact most of the gulf coast of Florida is not likely to see any oil 20% or less. The Keys and the east coast have 60 to 80% chance of seeing oil. Beach front property is never cheap. The price is down, but not because of oil.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (1:50 pm)I’d have to respectfully disagree with your assessment, since Volt is so unique – and possibly the slow rollout is to get a jump on educating the masses just what Volt is, and why it’s value far surpasses a conventional hybrid. 150-300mpg vs…40?
Comparing an MKZ hybrid with Volt is kind of like comparing the Corolla to the Prius. GM is very aware that marketing Volt means education of the many as to what it is and how it is in a completely different class with conventional hybrids. A person who is staid in their mindset that they want a luxury feel that gets decent mileage will perhaps pop for an MKZ or maybe a Lexus HS 250. The Volt buyer wants the latest technology to sustain our environment and get off foreign crude and are educated enough to know the difference.
BK – Big Kudos to Lyle for his persistence in getting pricing information. He may have not succeeded but I’m sure he’ll be one of the first to know what Volt’s MSRP will be, and we’ll here about it here.
Initial pricing is just a detail though, as dealers will mark it up the yang until they have several on the lot. I believe Volt owners will have paid dearly to be some of the first. In that, there is a cachet of sorts amongst the eco well off crowd. My thoughts have been what this trickle-out, dealer gouge scenario will do for future market acceptance when/if Volt gets production ramped up.
RECHARGE!
James
Jul 22nd, 2010 (1:54 pm)Gee, good thing I “dialed it back”!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 22nd, 2010 (2:15 pm)GM seems to be dragging there feet on news , keep people Interested…… Tell us the price or
tell us your making a list for purchase- $500 to be on list . Regulated dealer ships from increasing
price. Do something………. To be a front runner you have to keep moving forward- take note from nissan. The competion is going to catch you by offering a better car for less and eveyone
will jump on that wagon. GM’s MO is ticking……….. Can you hear it…………
Jul 22nd, 2010 (2:27 pm)=====================================
Tag:
I would sooooooooooooooooooooo like to believe that, but it could just be exactly the opposite:
GM may have already decided to price the Gen-1 2011 Model Year Volt at $40K+, because of the IPO and other government watchdogs that may object to GM selling their flagship new product at a loss. Let alone being screamed at by all of us and the trolls for the next four months…….
Plus, there will only be 10K units, and they will all sell. no matter what it is priced at. Capt Jack has it right. It will be Gen-2 and the end of the rebate that shows the real pricing of the Volt.
And could it possibly be the same for the CS mileage? If it was that good, they should have it plastered all over the corporate headquarters and be on the TV ads to build momentum for the release. They would also have every corporate exec out singing the praises of their engineering brilliance, don’t you think??? They need this for the Halo, and the IPO, so why keep it a secret???
It just does not make much sense to me. If I had REALLY GOOD NEWS to report, I would be reporting it…..
JMHO
NPNS
Jul 22nd, 2010 (2:46 pm)That’s why I said facing the gulf. I would have assumed that that’s the area most likely to be hit? I know people in Pensacola who are very worried…
But let me rephrase–anyone who doesn’t think oil is an environmental issue needs to buy some beachfront property in Louisiana. Preferably the part that’s just been evacuated. If they’re right, they’ll make a fortune.
-1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (2:50 pm)The 1st owner might get 8 yr. or 100,000 mile warranty on the battery but what about the $10,000 to replace the battery after that.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (2:57 pm)Why don’t you try making a deposit contingent on the MSRP? If it’s too high, the deposit is refundable, if it’s low enough, you’re in. The dealer is likely to accept this since they know they will be able to sell every one of them to someone.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (2:58 pm)The oil went around West FL to the East side (so my family in Tampa tells me)
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (2:59 pm)Sorry James, I have to respectfully suggest we agree to disagree. I certainly want the latest technology to sustain our environment and get off foreign crude & I’m educated enough to know the difference. In fact, I’ve paid my own way from Florida to NYC, not once but TWICE (well over $1,000 including air fare, hotels, etc) in support of the Volt and to test drive a Volt & no other reason. And I believe my academic background in both astrophysics and electrical engineering (as well as my lifelong career in the space program) suggest I should be educated enough to know the difference between a 2011 Lincoln MKS hybrid and a Volt (or a “Corolla and a Prius” as you say). In fact, I’m both a geek and a nerd (some might say I’m a “neek”).
But I’m not stupid. Nor are you. However, you ARE overlooking the big picture, which is that most educated people, even “neeks” like me, will see the 2011 MKS hybrid with its 41mpg EPA rating as an improvement of between 2:1 and 4:1 in luxury car fuel consumption at a price not dramatically higher than a Volt or a Leaf —neither of which claim to be luxury cars. And with a reduction of up to 4:1 in gasoline usage, many educated people will see the 2011 MKS hybrid as an excellent 1st step forward. And don’t forget, whether they’ll admit it or not, styling, inside & out, plays an important part in most car buyer’s decisions (be sure to have a good look at the photos included in my post #34).
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:00 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Aw maaannn,,,,, you said Lindsay Lohan!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
/u crack me up man….
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:05 pm)It wont be $10K. First, you wont HAVE TO replace after 8 years (battery will still have plenty of use in it). But if you do, the cost of the battery should be much less by then. The cost now is $8K (and I think that includes all of the temp controls). Ealier i was guessing it may cost $6k about 4 years from now, that includes the labor. It also may not be feasible to put a new battery in, and in that case you would just trade in and upgrade the whole car. Or you could do like LeoK suggested and just lease the Volt.
-1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:06 pm)On another front, the longer the announcement, the more competition is coming out to drive the pricing downward. The IMIEV first came out with an announcement at $40K (1st adopter pricing), and already, the price, forced by competitioni s coming down into the $20s. Hope the volt sells 100,000 cars per year as originally planned.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:08 pm)Well if you are bored, here’s another video to watch: The Chevrolet Volt: Technology Beyond the Battery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87XgEGxcQZY&feature=player_embedded
(Did you watch the Volt braking one?)
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:12 pm)My guess is the battery will be reconditioned after 10 years right at the dealership. The battery will still have plenty of useful life, just need a chemical reconditioning. Good for another 100,000 miles thereafter. Cheap and easy by the time battery systems are mainstream in 2017 – 2021 (projected replacement dates).
Everything to reduce Middle-east oil is a bonus for democracy, religious tolerance, and avoiding terrorist funding which oil bought there does.
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:14 pm)If GM Chevy Dealersh gouge, there’s always a Tesla for only a little more money $49K buys an incredible car if the gougers jack the volt up to $40ish. They’d be making a mistake, but that’s a business decision for them. GM should restrict them if possible to keep the production lines humming.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:23 pm)Here is some more excitement – You can watch the Volt’s doors being opened and closed in the cold…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zE1eqpXTyw&feature=channel
-9
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:27 pm)GM is predicted to die in 2013!!!
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:36 pm)This is exactly why they aren’t releasing the Volt in Ohio right away (g). No appreciation.
If your ailing quarterback was all set to play in the big game, you wouldn’t phone the opposing coach….
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:46 pm)I know it is kind of late in the day but I have a question. I have a 220 line for my dryer right next to my entry into the garage.
Can I use this outlet to fast charge my Volt ??
Have great day
Tom
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:58 pm)This is were most people are wrong. Most of the Florida gulf coast due to currents will not likely see any oil 20% or less chance (see NOAA site) Yes the panhandle likely will and has some already. The Keys, and the east coast like Miami have a 60 to 80% chance of seeing oil. This is due to the loop current.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (4:02 pm)There’s a great video available as well that has Farrah going through a lot of detail on the Volt. You also get to hear the pedestrian alert, and get info on some of their displays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbbv-CCVqyg&feature=related
join thE REVolution
Jul 22nd, 2010 (4:20 pm)Yes, but you will still need to hire an electrician to install the 220V home charger. It will be cheaper since you have the 220V line already there.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (4:36 pm)Tag, Tag, Tag:
You are THE GRAND OPTIMIST, and I don’t see PA, in the initial release area either….
To stay with your analogy, if the quarterback was suddenly turned into Superman, don’t you think they would call to scare the opposition???
I have plenty of appreciation for the design and engineering of the car, I just don’t think the marketing strategy is making any sense! That is my opinion. If I am wrong, I will publicly apologize to this forum….
We are too close to the launch to be keeping all this important information such a closely guarded secret. Four months to go, and we don’t even know what the available trim level options are. Or is this how it is normally done at GM? Maybe Corvette Guy can chime in on this one. I just remember having all this info months in advance before I bought my Dodge Stealth (which was a new model in 1990) and my Chrysler Crossfire (also a new model when I bought it in Oct, 2003). Like I said, I have always been an early adopter!!!
Jul 22nd, 2010 (5:09 pm)Qualfied yes. You won’t be able to have the charger and the dryer outlet on the same 30 Amp, 220 V line. The 220 V charger gets hard-wired to the line; no sockets & plugs allowed under code. Somebody posted that this was because the 220V sockets aren’t designed for repeated plug/unplug cycles the way that the 120V outlets are.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (5:16 pm)First, it’s already summer. Second, the price needs to be under $30k or it will be deemed a rich man’s car and the dealers shouldn’t be allowed to tack on more money. I know GM doesn’t have that control over dealers but if GM really wants the car to sell they’ll have to control the price somehow. GM wants the Volt to be every ones every day car so it has to have a price every one can afford, otherwise it’s just a nitch car and all the other electric cars will clean GM’s clock.
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Jul 22nd, 2010 (5:30 pm)Jim, Jim, Jim….. Why oh why would you try to be cocky and scare them if you had a lot, *everything*, riding on the game?
No need to apologize later, the cheering would just drown it out anyway (g).
All I can say is that at the NYC festivities on the 4th, it was the general consensus of the Optimist Auxiliary, that GM had nothing to gain by turning over many more cards too soon.
Compared to the discussions of whether there would ever be a Volt past the CONCEPT CAR, that we are even jawing about price being declared too slowly, is pretty neat stuff! Why *NOT* be optimistic?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
/ PA is within driving distance of the NY release
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
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Jul 22nd, 2010 (5:49 pm)You should read Lyle’s lead post again. His understanding of his personal conversation was that Whitacre told him the price would be in the low $30’s BEFORE rebate. This is not a little matter and Lyle knows this. I am of the opinion that something was miscommunicated or misunderstood (on Whitacres part) but I doubt anyone here is closer to what Whitacre has actually said than this.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (5:52 pm)Perhaps there is a manual 240V transfer switch (I’m pretty sure there is) that would allow both devices to share the circuit but only one at a time.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (5:59 pm)Van Says
Jul 22nd, 2010 (12:13 pm)
Hi, New American Resistance @ 79, I am with you as far as acknowledging that the left has hijacked the environmental movement to gain political power and
establish a bigger more tyrannical government.
But electric cars do help the environment.
OT JFYI I am an Independent and was wondering who the “Left” hijacked the environmental movement from? Thhis country has a big problem when issues that affect all of us are labeled Right or Left agendas. Until the politicians can stop pointing their fingers across the ile and instead find the common goals for the growing problems our country and world face we will all loose.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:03 pm)Although I understand the sentiment, if GM could restrict what a dealer does, that would break a number of state commerce laws and probably move into anti-trust lawsuit territory. Just because you don’t like the simple law of supply-and-demand doesn’t mean it is not worthy to exist.
If it is unfair for a dealer to charge OVER a ’suggested price’ then it is equally unfair for you to receive a DISCOUNT or a REBATE… but I bet you don’t complain about that now do you?
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:11 pm)Tagamet:
In case you missed it, I would direct your attention to post #155 yesterday.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:25 pm)If you want a Gen1 Volt, that is in all likelihood the best deal you can get. Yes, you run the risk of a $40K MSRP but that is pretty remote at this point. Perhaps, the dealer will allow you to deposit with a letter of intent that the deposit is refundable if the MSRP is above your highest threshold.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:31 pm)Thanks, I hadn’t seen that yesterday (and once I move on, I rarely go back). I’d posted right before that and when I refreshed, I totally missed your post.
Thanks again, looks promising!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:39 pm)The numbers speak for themselves
Why The Chevy Equinox EPA Mileage Numbers Don’t Add Up
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-the-chevy-equinox-epa-mileage-numbers-dont-add-up/
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Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:42 pm)
Jul 22nd, 2010 (6:56 pm)LauraM: Appreciate your effort to support that we may have environmental problems…next one is the gas drillers’ “frac water” spoliation of groundwater.
Tagamet: Humanity has made progress through at least partially a combination of optimism and hard work. Carry on sir!
I’m all for GM faking the shorts off the competition. IMO patience is a good thing in this case…
-1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:03 pm)It was $100M not $1B, and GM just went through bankruptcy, they are not rolling in dough! They must look at profit, not money loosing ideas.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:05 pm)I recently had an interesting chat with someone related to someone rather high up in the GM management and was told there is serious consideration to market the Volt an $32,000 before rebate bringing the base price to under $25K with the rebate. Also was told that ramp up to 50,000 by end of 2011 was possible if the demand was great. GM needs to give GM-volt waiting list people first crack at cash reservations. At $3000 a reservation GM would reap over $150 million in cash! Get the nation wide roll out under way a lot quicker. Just rumors but would be fantastic if true!
-1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:10 pm)+1 +1 +1
Just the sheer novelty of *using* patience, should really fake out the competition!
BTW, I live in the heart of the Marcellus Shale deposit. Just now noticed that you probably do too. The thing that I can point to that I like is that everyone is discussing things *early* – not after any damage is done.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:13 pm)After 8 years or 100 K miles the battery will probably be a LOT Cheaper than $10K.
If it is not then the future of battery electric cars will be very limited.
-1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:14 pm)Boy, there goes *your* super-secret decoder ring and membership card.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:37 pm)Hi Blind Guy @ 134, Before the left hijacked the environmental movement, it belonged to what was called “conservationists.” They were against exploiting natural resources, and wanted to protect our nations wilderness areas. They wanted clean air and clean water. They spoke truth to power, government power and corporate power. They did not need to “cook the books” to tell an inconvenient truth. They did not want to use the environment as a pretext for subduing the free market in a regulatory morass. And remember this, no leftest ever admits to being a leftist, they are independents, progressives, but never socialists or communists. Wouldn’t dream of a command and control economy governed by dictatorial elitists.
GM should set the price where it will turn a profit. If there is only a niche market at that price, then the NGM is not actually new, they have failed to address the actual reason they failed in the market before. Not enough for too much, no sale.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:41 pm)The problem is that Dick Cheney, as part of a misplaced energy policy, pushed through an exemption to the Clean Water Act for the shale gas drillers. There are several reasons why the Republicans were butt stupid when they did this. One is that it wasn’t needed. The drilling takes place far below the water table so unless you’re a screw-up there shouldn’t be any contamination. Two is that it makes everyone more suspicious, wondering what you’re hiding. Third it makes the drilling less than transparent, and, by making it less than transparent, it makes it impossible for governments to even plan for problems because only the companies know what they are injecting.
At this point the biggest impediment to shale gas development are the drillers. They need to wake up, smell the coffee, and get with a co-operative program. Otherwise they will be shut down, but not before giving the entire industry a bad reputation. Shale gas is a fantastic opportunity for the US on both the environmental and national security fronts. Hopefully the Clean Water Act fiasco won’t prevent people from understanding that. My guess is that as larger and much smarter companies move into the industry we’ll see the industry figure this out.
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Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:42 pm)The two numbers I want to see are: >40 mpg CS and <36K MSRP. These are both realistic and will seal the deal for most car buyers. Just hope the local dealerships choose volume sales over low volume with high mark up.
=D-Volt
Jul 22nd, 2010 (7:59 pm)Yes, no leftist ever admits to being a leftist, and no right winger ever admits to being a whack job. Case in point may be found the next time you look in the mirror.
In case you missed it, since it wouldn’t have been covered on Fox News or talk radio, which no doubt are the only places you ever get any news from, since all the real news outlets are “biased”, the investigations into “Climategate” exonerated the scientists and found that the scientific evidence was valid. The only “cooking of the books” being done at this point is the mindless BS from various people with little knowledge but overly active imaginations.
The absolute absurdity of denying the effect that greenhouse gases have on temperature eludes me. What part of “greenhouse gases raise global temperatures” don’t you get? Without greenhouse gases and the greenhouse effect the earth would have an average temperature of -4 degrees F. Because of greenhouse gases and the greenhouse effect the actual average temperature of the earth is 60 degrees F. You can look that up in any book. It’s only been known for, I don’t know, a hundred years. So claiming that injecting greenhouse gases into the earth’s atmosphere doesn’t raise the temperature of the earth is like claiming that adding salt to water doesn’t raise its boiling point — it’s just a fact that it does.
If you want to question the size of the effect or how this effect may be offset by other effects then fine, but the whacked out yarn about a giant conspiracy to “subdue the free market in a regulatory morass” represents the rantings of someone with a very loose connection to reality.
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:10 pm)The coup-d-etat would also give a lot of momentum to the IPO, and a good showing in that would dwarf any possible losses from setting the price too low.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:13 pm)DonC,
I think if you look closely at what they did you will find that the investigations were a joke and they were led by the very people who should have been under the microscope. The whole process was an insult to ones intelligence and it only serves to satisfy those who already made up their minds about the answer anyway.
Even those who think that man-made climate change is a real problem think the investigations are a joke.
This article is one of many.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/07/climategate-and-the-big-green-lie/59709
The Penn State investigation of M. Mann (and his famous hockey stick graph that shows temperatures have never been higher) basically concluded that since Mann does research and brings in money, this shows that he is a good researcher. He must be good because he brings in money. Great work Penn State.
Recent peer reviewed papers are noting that the midieval warm period was warmer than today meaning todays temperatures are not out of the ordinary and that the world can handle it just fine. THe Hockey stick graph is a travesty of science.
Another good perspective on the whole issue was recently published.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/please-remain-calm-the-earth-will-heal-itself/article1642767/
-1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:23 pm)Good point!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:31 pm)DonC,
If only things were so simple. The absolute absurdity of claiming that a trace gas in the atmosphere (changing from 3 in 10,000 molecules to 4 in 10,000) will cause runaway heating eludes me. This is a dream. The earth has feedback mechanisms. If it did not it would be an unstable system and we would already be lost.
What you might want to look into is whether or not any of the existing models take into account even half of the effects that impact global temperatures and what the uncertainty in the models actually is. As an avid thermal modeler and having done a PhD on gaseous/radiative energy balances, I know the models are not worthy of any concern on the global scale because they are simply not able to predict what they claim. Energy balances are a very complex field of science and global energy balances are essentially impossible to compute accurately.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:43 pm)How ’bout we all agree that we’ll never all agree about a *lot* of things, but that we all want to see the Volts’ wheels on the road! ….. ASAP……as affordable as possible……in large numbers!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
/pretty good restraint on the argument though (g)
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:52 pm)150 Don C Thx, I don’t think I could have responded to Van? any better myself. I didn’t agree with his Explanation of why GM went bankrupt either.I am concerned by how easily some people are brain washed by others. IMO well educated, open minded people will be the ones who will have what it takes to help this country.
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:14 pm)Let me go out on a limb here, why I will even bring my saw and start the cut…
The Volt will be the first car without a MSRP
Kind of like health care, you never will really know what it costs. (hey I like health care, I am alive because of it) You just go in and say “I need a Volt” or have your doctor prescribe you one.. Hey Doc, I am depressed I have BAD GAS anxiety…
Or, you want a Volt really bad, hey buddy, I got you a Volt for only $XX,XXX you know you want it.
Just kidding, I just want to swap the HHR for a Volt plus payments, wife willing.
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:17 pm)I have been working steady jobs for decades and I don’t need car insurance for fender benders, nor do I need health insurance for routine care like Tetanus shots. I need pay to these expenses for the very slight risk of something catastrophic completely wiping me out. I know the risks are tiny, probably even less than the small risk of global warming. But I pay for coverage anyway. For anybody that does not have coverage over long periods of time, I would ask, are you stupid. Not because there is such a great likelihood of something catastrophic happening, but because an occurrence would be needlessly devastating.
I don’t care which group of scientists win the public relations war, but you sound like someone with a position to defend so badly that your conclusions ignore common sense. If the middle ages were a similar temp as today with tiny human populations, energy from animals and no large scale technology; How can you categorically assume that with the huge amounts of energy use now, any warming towards higher levels today, whether detectable instantaneously or not, would not just keep sailing upwards.
Even if the chance is very slight, wouldn’t it make some sense to safeguard the low lying delta areas that produce so much of the worlds food? Anyone who ever sat foot on a college campus knows scientists aren’t without bias.
I haven’t pored over all the data, but I know the difference between a potential risk and idle proclamations made by bored loudmouths sitting in ivy covered towers. So I’ll let the scientists fight it out for the final word. But for those that say, aw rubbish we don’t need no insurance for something so catastrophic, I would still say, are you stupid? Not you personally of course
We prepare for things that have a low likelihood of occurring all the time. We spend billions on research and preparing to defend ourselves from a global WWII type war. Not many people say, it’s not likely so we should stop the research and sell the assets. The consequences are too grave, and if the situation changes, it would be devastating to prepare too late. Even though right now, the odds seem like about zero.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:22 pm)Currently renovating my condo. Painting walls, lifting carpet, and installing flooring. Keep your wife happy and you may find a Volt in your garage.
=D-Volt
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Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:26 pm)You, my friend are on a ROLL tonight (lol). My sides hurt from laughing (but what the heck, I’m covered). I guess health care is a lot like gas – we won’t know how much we like it, until after it’s *passed* (g). Now you got ME started.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:37 pm)Yup, doing trim work around the windows, doors and molding, staining etc. The garage is ready and willing. She is the one that writes the checks…
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:44 pm)Hi Tag, I will let you in on a little secret, Unrelated to politics. The plate on the Prius is “BAD GAS” Hey I got BAD GAS, I want a Volt.
Cheers
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:49 pm)It’s worth a try. Check with your local permits & inspections office about the local codes. A qualified electrician should know the answer as well. Good luck, you might find a solution that a lot of people would want to use.
I’m spoiled because my service entrance and panel box are in my garage, the box having capacity for an additional dual 30A breaker, and will only require about 10 feet of new line to the charger mounting location.
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Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:53 pm)Isn’t “Bad Gas” an oxymoron? Tagamet is good for acid, but not much help with gas. At least I’m “over-the-counter” now. When I took this handle I was prescription only. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
And now back to the Volt!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
/work tomorrow, so I’ll be late
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (9:55 pm)I already have a dedicated garage circuit that used to run a hot tub, so *bring on the Volt!*
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:02 pm)For us it is.
/Nite All
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:36 pm)I stand corrected. That’s really interesting. It’s also good news for me personally. (I also have family in Tampa. And in Pensacola.)
I’m hoping we get really really lucky and the oil won’t reach Florida period. Or at least, the damage will be minimal…
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:45 pm)Please GM … price the Volt as aggressively as possible. Being able to buy a Volt for $27,000 or less (after tax credits) is going to be a MAJOR factor in people’s decision to buy. Everyone wants the Volt to be a huge success. Having it priced right will definitely get the attention of a LOT of people.
+2
Jul 22nd, 2010 (10:57 pm)Hey! Take it easy on prophet Glenn Beck… he’s going blind you know.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:07 pm)I like this guy’s license plate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzi4tL3QMWk
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Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:23 pm)Foxnews is the place to get propaganda that is what they do ..News is the last thing they do ..just spew nonsense 24/7 amazing how the citizens in US fall for that kind of bs … i had the impression folks in US are educated & rational but nah just full of dum dumbs …hmm just scary ..so sad …
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:34 pm)If the dryer is a 2200W (or less) and pulls 10amps, and the Volt’s 3300W charger will only pull 15amps, that’s only 25 total, but I think GM said it had to be a dedicated line for the Volt. I dont recall the exact words, but its too late for me to surf it, or even the electrical code for that matter.
+2
Jul 23rd, 2010 (5:21 am)I respectfully disagree about the assertion of pricing at $40K today, pisses off customer when price drops to 30K. Early adopters know they are paying to be first, bragging rights, etc. My neighbor bought his plasma TV 4 years ago for close to $3800… Now you can get similar flat panel large screen for about $1,200 around here. Price drop of about 70%. I never here him complain. There are easily 50,000-100,000 people that can afford the car priced at $57K (-7.5K) = $49.5K. They will be the talk of the neighborhood and when the price drops over time, the won’t care. I think the concern is more from the lower income people here that want to be the first, but can’t afford it. I myself am willing to wait 3-5 years when the cost drops and performance increases.
+1
Jul 23rd, 2010 (5:47 am)I agree Corvette… I have never paid MSRP or above, sometimes I get the car way below and other times only slightly below. What is the percentage of people paying MSRP at your dealership? I am guessing you get a few that don’t get the game. Maybe the people complaining here are the ones who pay MSRP?
Jul 23rd, 2010 (5:57 am)The problem is one of risk and what we can do about it. We do know that billions of people will be affected and millions of lives will be lost if we cut out using carbon based fuels so that is not an option to just “try” to see if we can impact climate.
We also know that all of the Cap and Trade laws that have been proposed are not expected to impact climate in any way.
As for earlier times being warmer than right now, the point is that Michael Man and his hockey stick graph are based on trying to prove that we are at unprecedented temperature levels. It has never been warmer. This has been shown to be false. If the current temps are within historical norms it does not seem to be as much of an emergency. The CO2 levels are also within historical norms.
The real issue is whether or not we should waste our precious resources trying to change the earths climate. Some think it is foolish not to try. I am in the camp that trying to change the earths climate is a fools errand in and of itself and we will never succeed. The earth will do what it wants.
We should focus on goals that we can actually achieve like improving air quality, conservation, and the defunding the terrorists.
You bring us the insurance analogy. Would you pay for the coverage is many experts were saying that your coverage would really not change a thing for you and that if you got into an accident you would still ahve to pay for all expesenses?
Jul 23rd, 2010 (6:03 am)Running late, see you all later!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
+1
Jul 23rd, 2010 (6:23 am)When? There have been some temperature peaks within the last 750,000 years at current levels, and the only times the CO2 level was higher was in the dinosaur age hundred million years ago or so. I am not at all sure the earth was “livable” at that time. There were periods where dinosaurs died off, I wonder if that coincides with the period of high CO2?
Man has been here for less than 1M years and going back further is a pointless exercise. We are in an unprecedented scenario if you restrict your time since then.
Besides warming there are other dramatic reasons to be concerned about CO2, it is acidifying our oceans, killing off fish, a major food source. Most of the world’s oxygen comes from algae in the ocean, algae is dying off. Other pollutants are also wreaking havoc with our ecosystem like pesticides. We are busy making the world a worse place to live for our children.
There are solutions for our energy and financial problems. We just don’t have the political will to do anything about it because the wealthy in control are doing fine and don’t see the need for change.
Jul 23rd, 2010 (7:21 am)I agree. Good news that sits long tends to be twisted into bad news. Bad news can with time be forgiven (..or turned into worse news). As you say BELIEVE.
Jul 23rd, 2010 (7:26 am)Can’t you get “bad gas” from bad tacos?
+1
Jul 23rd, 2010 (8:27 am)When?
Its called the medieval warm period. Its really not that long ago. Man was alive and thrived during that period. In fact, what is know about it is that is was a period of relative calm as far as weather goes. Its not all that long ago and it implies that todays temperatures are within a normal range. It also implies that if things get warmer, we will not all die and we will probably have increased crop yeilds and fewer storms. C02 is plant food, afterall.
I agree whole heartedly that we should do things to help ourselves out. I just think we should spend our limited resources on things we can impact like actual pollution, pesticides, and famine.
Jul 23rd, 2010 (8:35 am)When I hear “there are solutions” that will turn back global warming I will immediately ask people if they think that is embracing nuclear hard.
That is the only credible way to quickly and radically cut CO2 production. Wind power is being added at a “breakneck speed” of 1% capacity per year. At ~30% capacity factor, that is about .3% of production added per year. If you want to idle coal output that will take 150 years at the current rate of addition. I’m not saying it can’t be ramped up, but it hasn’t been demonstrated yet. In addition there are energy storage issues. Again this isn’t a technical impossibility, but there is fact that ZIP ZERO energy storage is being added right now… it is a probability not a certainty.
At the rate we built nuclear power plants between 1977 and 1982, we could idle all of the coal plants in 15 years. That is a 55% reduction in CO2 output in 15 years. The fact that we already did it would put it in the certainty category, not the probably category.
If global warming truly is dire, then the risks of nuclear pale by comparison.
Jul 23rd, 2010 (9:41 am)WOW that’s great info. Don’t blame DonC for not knowing any of this he likely only sees what MSNBC says.
Jul 23rd, 2010 (9:53 am)During WWII, we built quite a lot of tanks and aircraft. Aircraft, in particular, are far more complex than a wind turbine (look at the part count).
At the moment, we have 9% unemployment, quite a lot of idle industrial capacity and, in spite of the recession, quite a few companies have large cash reserves.
We have the human resources, we have the capacity and we have the money to transform the economy into a green economy. We don’t have the will, thanks to strategically funded Denialists who make their money off fossil fuels.
Want to revive Detroit? Put it to work. There are quite a few very interesting projects that would lend themselves nicely to aspects of Detroit’s automotive expertise (as, for example, the Stirling Energy Systems 25KW generator).