2010 Honda Insight
And finally the last has fallen.
Following GM, Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, and Audi, now Honda has finally committed its entry into the plug-in hybrid arena. In an announcement in Japan, Honda’s CEO Takanobu Ito announced the company will launch both a plug-in hybrid and a pure battery electric car in 2012.
Both cars will go on sale in the United States in 2012.
Ito outlined a broad strategy with the goal of reducing CO2 emissions. “Honda will have no future unless we achieve a significant reduction of CO2 emissions,” he said.
To achieve those goals highlights specifically related to the U.S. market include:
• By the end of 2010 and continuing through 2011, Honda will roll out a battery-electric vehicle demonstration program in the U.S. with participants, including: Stanford University, Google Inc. and the City of Torrance, Calif.
• The City of Torrance will receive a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle for evaluation by the end of 2010.
• A battery-electric commuter vehicle will be introduced in the U.S. market in 2012.
• A new plug-in hybrid system for mid-size to larger vehicles will be introduced in the U.S. market in 2012.
• Honda’s first hybrid application of a lithium-ion battery will debut in the next- generation Civic Hybrid to be introduced in 2011. The lithium-ion battery was developed through the Honda and GS Yuasa joint-venture company, Blue Energy Co., Ltd.
Its truly amazing to consider just three years ago when GM first announced the Volt concept, nearly every major automaker criticized them calling the technology too immature. Now every major automaker in the world has committed to mass production of plug-in cars.
Since GM-Volt illustrated very early on just how much widespread consumer demand there was for such car, its nice to imagine even just to dream we here played a role in this.
Source (Honda)
This entry was posted on Tuesday, July 20th, 2010 at 6:28 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors, PHEV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+5
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:32 am)Is it just me or does the picture above look very Prius-like?
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:36 am)OT: I really hate to bring this up, but what do you folks think about Jay Leno’s recent remarks about the Volt? Quote (from Detroit News): “Leno told The Detroit News that the car could pass for a Chevy Cobalt or a Toyota Camry. He won’t be among those scrambling to have the first Volt — there’s not a lot of cachet in owning one of the first ones, he says.”
So much for turning up the buzz.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:36 am)Honda has announced an ambitious timetable for these cars. Either A. They have been sandbagging us all along and working on them behind the scenes; or B. They’re rushing to get into the game.
I suspect it’s the former. No doubt it has gleaned some lessons learned from its fuel cell vehicle program.
But, given Honda’s current weak hybrid architecture, it’s more of a stretch for Honda to create a plug-in. It sounds like Honda intends to develop a more robust hybrid architechture for its larger vehicles. This is a pretty quick timetable to accomplish that.
And finally, what will the specs be? How much AER?
+25
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:38 am)Come on in Honda…the water’s fine!
Hard to believe this tough cookie finally crumbled. Honda’s CEO had many less than flattering remarks when talking about anything plug-in. Even made fun of the Volt. Now, a complete about face. Well, better late than never I guess.
A special pat on the back needs to go to Lyle for his tireless efforts here. Without him, the EV movement probably wouldn’t exist in the growing capacity it does today. Well done, friend!
+18
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:39 am)By the end of 2012 it looks like many of us will have the opportunity to have a plug in vehicle. The times are getting exciting.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:40 am)OK, now I’m thinking that the picture of the car looks like a Prius with the catfish style nose of the Leaf. And honestly, I’m not dispariging it, it does look kind of polished and clean.
+15
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:41 am)After seeing all the good things that GM has done with the Volt, it’s incredible how many companies have “got religion”.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:42 am)Good news from Honda. A 28 mpg CR-V just won’t cut it in 2014. Wonder how long until we see an EV at the Indy 500?
BTW: Opportunity knocks. Several lithium battery stocks have been upgraded this week.
=D-Volt
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:46 am)“Its truly amazing to consider just three years ago when GM first announced the Volt concept, nearly every major automaker criticized them and calling the technology too immature. Now every major automaker in the world has committed to mass production of plug-in cars.”
Some of us reckoned, once the competition figured they should enter the market, that they would move very fast. None of Honda’s announcements are more than two years out.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:46 am)Right, in the form of cash.
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:46 am)I think it looks nicer than the Prius.
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:48 am)I suspect that everything that Honda puts out will have substance, “gravitas” if you will. They may not believe that EREV is the way to go, but Lyle’s efforts will (have) draw them in as they have us.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:49 am)From the article:
To achieve those goals highlights specifically related to the U.S. market include
A new plug-in hybrid system for mid-size to larger vehicles will be introduced in the U.S. market in 2012.
I like the sounds for that. I am hoping for a 4X4 whether it be a car or a small pickup truck.
+4
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:52 am)From the article:
By the end of 2010 and continuing through 2011, Honda will roll out a battery-electric vehicle demonstration program in the U.S. with participants, including: Stanford University, Google Inc. and the City of Torrance, Calif.
So does this mean that while they have been bashing GM,
they have actually been secretly building them?
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:54 am)I am guessing Honda & Toyota are rushing to get into the market. I think Toyota and Honda got lazy when it looked like the U.S. Auto industry was going to totally collapse. They figured they had the high mileage cars and could coast. Even the U.S. government was making comments about the VOLT not being a player in the market. Hopefully GM will not get lazy and coast. Hopefully Ford will still be proud of their ability to avoid a bailout and they will fight like hell to be the best! Chrysler….. Oh well, as Meat Loaf sang in 1977, “Two Out of Three ain’t bad!”
+4
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:55 am)You wrote: Sine GM-Volt illustrated very early on just how much widespread consumer demand there was for such car, its nice to imagine even just to dream we here played a role in this.
But I think the game changed when:
1. people saw that Calcars could produce a plugin hybrid version of The Prius that got 125mpg with off-the-shelf Valence Technology Lithium Phopsphate batteries that had been around for 3+ years at the time (that was 3 years ago now)!
2. That the Tesla Roadster was a reality and was fast!!!
3. The ‘who killed the Electric car’ doc came out and people started realising if the EV1 was ok with crappy Lead acids, bit better with NI Cads, then an electric car with lighter, powerful Lithium batteries would be awesome!
+4
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:55 am)Is the Volt going to be the only EREV from a major car maker?
All we’re seeing is pure BEVs and PHEVs. Very disappointing…
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:58 am)An article on Yahoo news said the CEO changed. The new CEO in the article said that ‘the previous CEO didn’t like batteries – but I do’. So I assume the development program has been in-house for a while under this guys division.
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:00 am)From the article:
The City of Torrance will receive a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle for evaluation by the end of 2010.
Wouldn’t this be an EREV?
If not, then what is a “plug-in hybrid electric vehicle”?
+10
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:03 am)Yes, you’re the guy deserving a pat on the back, Lyle! (And I STILL feel more strongly than ever that GM should award you an honorary Volt equipped exactly as you’d like it!)
/BTW, I chuckled when reading your opening comments about GM, Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen and Audi announcing plug-ins, that you omitted BMW. Does this mean you really didn’t enjoy driving their Mini-E? J/K, of course, but couldn’t resist!
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:04 am)Lyle, pat yourself on the back today. Better yet, turn around, here’s a pat on the back from all of us! =D> >:D<
+10
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:09 am)“…Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Mercedes Benz
, Volkswagen, and Audi now Honda has finally committed its entry into the plug-in hybrid arena.”
These are just more reasons for GM to forget the 30K build number for 2012 and start pumping these units out at full capacity!!!
The competition is going to arrive. It would be better to be the lead car, instead of just running in the middle of the pack, don’t you think???
JMHO
NPNS
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:09 am)Come on – it’s just a picture of the Insight concept. How do I know? Just hover your mouse pointer over the pic and read the tooltip.
+5
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:12 am)I, for one, am getting tired of all the rhetoric from these car companies. Encouraging for sure but I want to see wheels on the road. Until then I will assume they are all just riding the electric green bandwagon being driven by GM and Nissan.
+4
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:13 am)Maybe just an ‘ordinary’ hybrid, with perhaps a slightly larger battery, but a batery that can be charged initially by plug-in. It may still be mechanically driven, in the fashion of an ICE car, much of the time. My guess is that they are doing minimal modification of an existing system, i.e., incremental development as much as they can.
+6
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:23 am)Actually, some here will remember that I originally vigorously protested the Volt’s closed grills (obviously dictated to the designers to assure Chevy product line identity). As time passes, however (and having seen/driven a Volt) I really believe the Volt overall design will be easily distinguishable from any other cars sold by Chevy or anyone else. Its distinctive rear end treatment (taillights, etc), black door sills, headlights & running/parking lights, etc succeed in tastefully/stylishly setting it apart from anything else. I disagree, Jay! To the contrary, there’s actually plenty of cachet in owning one of the first Volts! It’s already an assured classic!
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:26 am)I definately looks very new Insight like.
Take Care,
TED
+5
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:26 am)The talk from most automakers is that it takes about 3 years to go from back of napkin sketch to sitting in a showroom for most vehicle platforms. Honda and Toyota announcing plans to have saleable plug-in vehicles in 2 years seems fishy to me. My guess is they were choosing to disparage GM all the while working on prototypes of their own.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:28 am)I’ve always thought of ER-EV as being a serial architecture, a la Voltec. In other words, a pure electric-drive vehicle. The plug-in Prius is the same parallel hybrid archtecture Toyota has always used, only with a bigger battery to take the car 10 miles before the engine has to kick in.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:29 am)Rashiid Amul said:
From the article:
The City of Torrance will receive a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle for evaluation by the end of 2010.
Wouldn’t this be an EREV?
If not, then what is a “plug-in hybrid electric vehicle”?
A vehicle that can do almost nothing without burning gas.
+14
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:34 am)The company to watch is Hyundai.. they have a better, stronger implementation of Honda’s IMA system and a good relationship with LG and its batteries. Their next step is a bigger optional battery in their new hybrids.. as has been said before everything depends on the cost and supply of batteries.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:48 am)Just saw a Volt on the road! I live by the GM Proving Grounds in Milford, MI. Out of a nearby roundabout comes a grill that I recognize without seeing any other part of the car! It was white and quite dirty. I guess it was going back to the proving grounds for more abuse!
Also, I’m being told by the local dealers that Michigan is going to be part of the second wave, which is some time in March 2011. That stinks, but I’m first in line on a couple lists (after dropping the deposit that was supposedly not going to be required
)
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:55 am)Which stocks?
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:56 am)You are correct..
I believe Honda has been watching and learning.
Their early stuff was a learning curve…. with watching Prius… and when the VOLT come up with advanced capabilities that was the eye opener.
Honda realized to stay in the game their offerings had to be taken up a notch.
Chevy needs to make sure the VOLT continues to improve. Car companies work hard make sure the first generation as perfect as possible and then the next generations tend to be how can we take stuff out to make a bigger profit with now one noticing.
Hopefully the NEW GM can get beyond that mindset and keep improving the VOLT with the new technologies that keep appearing make the car better every year. Maybe the drop in battery costs will be enough to keep everyone happy. :+}
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:56 am)I want to add my thanks to Lyle for being a big part in the EV revolution. And the Volt will kick-start EV acceptance because it is such a great car. For me its going to be deciding on a Gen I or Gen II Volt. I’ll probably go back and forth a million times!
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:59 am)Chrysler is working on an all electric Fiat 500 EV.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:00 am)A 4X4 serious electric would be GREAT in Michigan winters! I am in for that! Prefer a GM evolved VOLT 4×4.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:01 am)That just had to be served with a slice of humble pie. I’m glad to see the engineering talents of Honda be turned to these tasks and hopefully away from weak hybrids and hydrogen dream machines.
Like them or not, Honda can churn out some incredible products, when steered in the right direction. I’m still upset with them for giving the world the 10kW weak hybrid. That was an insult! Honda, please make up for that horror. If some of you older executives still don’t quite understand what is happening, maybe it’s time for early retirement. You have worked very hard and earned it. I bow with deep respect.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:05 am)A PHEV is basically a Prius with a bigger battery and a plug that allows you to charge from an external source. The drive train is a parallel hybrid.
An EREV has a series drive train that is always powered by electricity.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:05 am)I have always considered Honda the Gold Standard when it comes to efficient, durable drivetrains. Even more so than Toyota (despite the Prius mpg crown). But the reviews I’ve read on Hyundai products (I haven’t driven one yet) are extremely positive. It’s hard to tell about Ford, they’re holding their cards pretty close to the vest these days–they may just focus on ecoboost but it looks like they’re trying to keep a toe in every “eco-puddle”, and lately it seems like Nissan’s got a new tech announcement every other day.
If GM wants to compete in the plug in game then I hope they are WELL into gen ii design on the volt.
More and more we’re seeing signs that the tides have truly shifted. Today’s announcement is one of the biggest signs yet.
/Save your pennies, boys and girls. Looks like there’s going to be a lot of electrified candy to choose from by 2013.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:11 am)The picture at the top of the article is a bit misleading as its just the show car version of the Honda Insight which you can go and buy at any Honda dealer in the US (its Honda’s low cost hybrid).
If you want to see what a concept EV from Honda looks like, hold your nose and go here:
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-honda-ev-n-concept/med/#2326743
Makes the Leaf look great…. JMHO of course.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:11 am)That’s an interesting perspective, but easy to see it as a “waiting for the opportunity” situation instead… since the only thing needed to make the current Prius into a plug-in is a better battery-pack. The PHV model uses the same traction motor, generator motor, combustion engine, and PSD. Using those same components already being produced & sold in high-volume supports the “battery need” quite well.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:13 am)THAT would be nice! I would second the motion.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:15 am)Not to take anything away from Lyle (sharing the Volt story and evangelizing EVs) but all these other manufacturers invest/spend billions in R&D on future drivetrains. What we are seeing from Audi, Hyundai, BMW, etc. is three or more years of internal R&D moving to near production. The difference is, these technologies don’t move to production until a business case (financial, market, production timing) can be made.
In addition, the introduction of a new drivetrain is usually tied to the design/redesign of a new product. Rarely is an “in production” vehicle redesigned to accomodate a new drivetrain because it is cost and quality prohibitive.
Case in point, the new Sonata had been years in design/development and hybrid and turbo drivetrains were part of the design specification.
http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/sonata-hybrid/2011/2011-hyundai-sonata-hybrid-first-drive.html
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:17 am)LOL, i know its only a concept from 2009, but the Cd on that has to be worse that the original Volt concept. (and note its a 4 seater) I’m guessing the actually car will end up being more like the Civic pictured above.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:20 am)Honda formed the joint Lithium battery venture with GS Yuasa back in 2008.
I suspect Honda has been working on plug in plans for a while — the time frames already mentioned would indicate as such. It’ll be interesting to see just what they reveal today.
http://world.honda.com/news/2008/c081217GS-Yuasa-and-Honda/
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:21 am)Say it isn’t so. My eyes….. MY EYES!!!!
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:28 am)And yet, that’s exactly what Ford is doing.
Ford’s Plan to Hedge on Hybrids
The company will share parts and production lines between hybrids and conventional vehicles.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25540/
+15
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:28 am)NOWHERE has there been the dogged and daily drumbeat that has focused like the proverbial laser on this cause like Lyle’s work here at gm-volt.com. Others like calcars have made significant contributions, but compared to Lyle’s consistent, almost stubborn-in-the-face-of-reality efforts they pale. “Success has many Father’s, while failure is an orphan”. MANY will be stepping up and saying “*SEE*? I TOLD you they’d come around”. The obvious difference is that Lyle (and to a far lesser extent all of us here) really helped make it a reality. JMO (but way to go LYLE)(g)!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:28 am)ABAT and AONE are being pushed along with good press. I currently have about 22k in ABAT. AONE will do well over time. But, do not plan on buying AONE.
ROC and JCI are getting positive word as well.
=D-Volt
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:29 am)It’s starting to really roll now. More EVs, more battery manufacturers, more everything. Which translates into lower cost for everything.
I think the niche is getting way bigger for all you niche nay-sayers. Once Hyundai gets in the game, we’ll really have a huge choice of product in a couple years.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:33 am)You know better than to ask that question!
If you know the difference between the Volt and the plugin Prius then you already have the answer. That’s if you’re actually begging the question or just lumping these cars into a category. (also, look series vs parallel hybrid anywhere)
Don’t forget GM itself!
Not too long ago GM had contracted Hitachi to supply lithium ion batteries for their 2 mode. With all of the Volt thunder at GM, the 2 mode has only made a couple of token appearances.
The plugin SUV just might be the better market above the sedan/commuter stuff coming out.
Now, where did that Vuick go, hmmm. I wonder. Putting the 2 mode on the back page also tells us just how important the Volt is to GM despite the criticism of low volume!
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:34 am)===============================
He probably wants GM to give him one for free……………..
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:35 am)Since much of what I enjoy reading here is OT, I want to pick up something that was discussed near the end of yesterday’s thread- natural gas. [Since there are Honda vehicles powered by it, it is not that far OT]. Since CH4 is 30 times worse than CO2 (as a greenhouse gas), we ought to burn all of it that has a CHANCE to making it into the atmosphere. However, most of it is locked underground- where it ought to stay for good!
Pickens and his methane plans meet up with the cold hard reality of hydraulic fracturing. Indeed, there may be a lot of methane under US soil, but it is locked in rock. The only way to get it out is to break up the rock with a horrific chemical stew that contaminates ground water. How would you like to be able to open your cold water tap and be able to set the WATER STREAM ON FIRE? (Many videos are available showing this) If you want to call the US “The Saudi Arabia of Natural Gas”, you ignore what it would take to get us there. After you see the sobering truth of “hydro fracking”, you understand why NYC lobbied state lawmakers to ensure that its HUGE watershed was protected from natural gas drilling.
We had the worst coal mine disaster in 40 years just a few months ago. Oil is killing the Gulf. Hydro fracking makes the phrase “Clean Natural Gas” into an oxymoron. The next generation will either be the last generation to know fossil fuels- or it will be the last generation. We must move away from this crap so that we can have great great grandchildren who thank us for our choices- instead of cursing us for them.
BTW, back on topic. If you think the new Honda looks like a Prius, get used to it. There is a reason the Volt’s appearance morphed considerably from its inception. Coefficient of Drag cannot be ignored. Our esthetic choices must be reigned in by frictional realities. There is only so much you can do.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:40 am)A manufacturing/investment thought.
If (when) we have another oil shock, buy Ford stock. They (and possibly Toyota) are going to be able to react much quicker than the competitiion.
————————
“What’s more, Ford has designed its hybrids so that they use the same electronics boards used to control systems in the engine of its conventional vehicles. In hybrids, the electronics board will control the charging and discharging of the battery. As a result, Ford will be able to order between half a million and a million of these controllers. “That’s a level no one else in the industry can achieve so far,” because of the relatively low volumes of hybrid sales, Gioia says.
Ford is using a similar cost-saving approach with its plug-in hybrids. Some automakers, such as GM, have opted to make plug-in hybrids that are significantly different from their hybrid vehicles, so they don’t share many common parts. But Ford’s plug-in hybrid will have the same electric motors, power electronics, control systems, and transmission as regular hybrids, allowing for large-scale production of these parts. The only significant differences will be the battery and the battery charger. Toyota will take an approach to plug-in hybrids that’s similar to Ford’s.”
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25540/page2/
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:40 am)The big thing is just the total number of EREV/BEV/PHEVs because the critical thing for the next 3 years it to get economies of scale going all along the supply chain and in particular in battery technology and manufacturing. First develop the technologies and get the prices down. Then the companies can start producing to demand, whatever the type, size or configuration of the car.
I’d like to see more options as far as SUVs/ pickups etc. Also I’m tired of seeing all these companies rolling out initial fleets in the same areas. How about Honda pick a virgin site like NorthEast Ohio so we can get on board here.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:41 am)Have a feeling that most of the first 10,000 Volts will go to buyers who make an extra effort with their checkbook pen. A manager of a local GM dealer said, “I’ll call you when I know the price”. There’s a good chance he’ll say that the first lot are gone. Dozens of locals are hardcore greenies with plenty of ink to roll.
=D-Volt
-2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:44 am)In my head, I equate PHEV and EREV.
Both have a gas engine and electric motor, otherwise where does the Hybrid part come in?
Thanks everyone for setting me straight on this.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:51 am)Not to take away from your business point, but how many mfgs make that investment decision to MOVE from a particular CONCEPT car to the point were it gets that cars wheels on the road? Everything you said is true, but the impact of knowing that there is a demand out there (like a 50K “want list”) is the kind of “nudge” that mfgs need to get them off their collective and ample arses (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:52 am)=================================
The Honda looks kind of like an old Russian Lada……
What do you think????
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:53 am)And finally the last has fallen.
Indeed, and this is a good thing, for like GM, Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, and Audi, Honda has so to also fallen to the ever expanding and forward march of technology.
People that deny Hybrids as the next generation of the automobile are themselves living fossils of a soon to be bygone era.
+5
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:54 am)Bob Lutz said that for once, he wanted to lead and have the Japanese auto makers follow them.
Bob, you got your wish.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:54 am)I wish we’d all just stick with series, series-parallel, and parallel (HEV or PHEV), the EREV marketing term just makes things more confusing.
/of course, once you start using both axles for different drives, then 3 terms won’t be enough
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:56 am)In the case of the PHEV Prius, the engine will turn on at mile zero if you step on the throttle.
That certainly isn’t the same as the Volt.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:57 am)The difference is in an EREV the electric motor always drives the wheel. The gas engine is there as a generator to make electricity when the battery is depleted. In a PHEV the engine is there to drive the wheels when the battery is depleted, or to assist the electric motor while there is still battery left.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:58 am)SAE found the marketing jargon unacceptable. They identify any vehicle offering both a plug and an engine a PHEV.
-2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:59 am)Yet, those here have been lumping all hybrid types into a “parallel” category for many years.
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:01 am)I SOOOOO want to agree with you! Given the unknowns still in any VERY new car at release (“We can’t know what we don’t know”), I still (painfully) believe that the first year 10K release is prudent. I’m getting a bit more antsey about releasing the hounds during year two production numbers though (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:03 am)I have the impression that Honda has lost the fire to do the best. 20 years ago they could do no wrong. Not anymore.
Just look at the Insight. For a little bit less money you can get far less fuel mileage. Don’t count on any PHEV being spectacular.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:04 am)“And finally the last has fallen”? Shouldn’t it read “And finally the last has risen”? Just a thought.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:06 am)I agree with leno, the volts only exciting aspect is not visible and it is not a performance car like the tesla,in short for a hot rod guy like leno not a very exciting car. AS for myself unless this tech comes in the form of a van or a pickup truck it is of no use to me either. Just have no use whatsoever for a small commuter sedan. I love the concept but have no use for the model they chose to debut it in.
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:07 am)Jay Leno also reiterate later that he had been misquoted.
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:12 am)LOL, Seriously? Thanks for the link and I’d encourage everyone to take a look at that beauty! And we griped about the shift from our concept to the production model! This really puts things into perspective!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:12 am)While Jay “might know about cars” is he really interested in what the VOLT is really about?
The car is “just another pretty Chevy on the outside — this is where he comments — while the real story is on the inside where he does not really seem to get.
Maybe this is the same kind of mis-placed focus that has got his Tonight show ratings in the low low dumper :+] Har har
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:13 am)Why on earth was the 10kW weak hybrid an insult or a horror? It was affordable, it was available, and it increased fuel economy on thousands of vehicles by a significant amount by allowing the use of smaller engines. Considering there weren’t any plugins available last decade and the IMA performance matched pretty well with the Prius Synergy Drive for most of a decade, your comments are way off the mark. You can make a case for it being too weak for the next decade, but not for the last IMO. And compared to the traditional ICE, which happens to still dominate this market and will for quite some time, it has been quite a simple yet affordable improvement.
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:13 am)We’d chatted about this yesterday, but I hadn’t seen a retraction. I’d love to read it though – gotta link?
TIA.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:15 am)The GM EV1 with its NiMh batteries wasn’t so bad after all but my personal preference goes for EREV
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf
Constant speed range @ 60mph stated 160 miles, driving cycle range 140 miles…
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:19 am)Well, I don’t get that impression. If you look at:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/12/nissan-leaf-offers-passing-gear-simulation-sort-of-chevy-volt-does-not/
the Honda pictured, IMHO, has a front end more of the Volt appearance. The light grouping on the Leaf rises up from the hood: not so on the Honda.
At last: one more electric to compare to the Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:20 am)The sad thing is… no plug. It does look sharp though.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:20 am)“…GM, Toyota, Ford, Nissan, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, and Audi, now Honda…”
That is quite an impressive list.
Although we cannot know who is doing what behind closed doors, it appears that GM, with their billion dollar investment, meticulus engineering, patents and testing efforts, is currently the clear leader in this automotive revolution. They appear to be years ahead of the others.
It’s about time GM and American auto makers were the leaders again! GM is to be congratulated for sticking to this task while others all over the world were criticizing them. Especially considering much of it occurred during the massive GM re-organization.
Your patience is being rewarded with every new announcement like this one.
Now, go get ready to make a LOT more VOLTS!
GO VOLT!
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:21 am)Apparently everyone (even Lyle?) forgot Honda already announced when they began working on PHEVs back in 2008 when they announced their join venture with GS Yuasa. On that note, I’m kind of skeptical on the longevity of GS Yuasa batteries. Even Panasonic who has a LOT of experience with Lithium Ion cell manufacturing doesn’t make all that nice batteries. The Tesla uses them because they are cheaper and get the job done and rich people who are buying a Tesla can afford to replace the battery cells after 5 or 6 years, but I don’t think they’re going to be good for a Civic Hybrid, or a PHEV. Oh well! That’s the plight of the Japanese who refuse to work with other Asian countries.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:24 am)http://abcnews.go.com/Business/jay-leno-explaining-volt-remarks-rides-gms-defense/story?id=11198994
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:26 am)You made a good post.
I like the concept of NG but where it is is an issue. Hybrids and electric cars have a chance to be the real future for a lot of our transportation needs
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:27 am)Seems plenty obvious: Everyone is entitled to their opinion and Jay Leno is entitled to his. What’s the issue? He thinks GM needs to make a Tesla Roadster. I don’t. One of us is right.
Personally I’m going with nasaman and Tag and Dan Petit that the ride and handling is superb. If the car is this great I’m not that concerned about how fast it goes to 60 mph.
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:33 am)It is nice to see that the new CEO saw where GM’s Voltec design was headed and also began to move Honda in that direction.
It took Toyota a while to realize that GM was onto something big with an EREV. Now everyone is headed in the same direction.
Lowering CO2 is recognition by Honda that Global warming is real and needs immediate action to save our planet.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:34 am)“”[The reporter] asks me ‘so, Jay, are you going to be the first person to buy a Volt?’ and I told him no, I already own a lot of cars and they tend to be sports cars. I was trying to explain to him that it’s more of an everyday car, you know, not a Corvette. And the next thing you know you have headlines that say ‘Jay Leno Zings the Volt,’ and that’s not at all what I was trying to get across. This is unfortunate because the reality is, I truly believe the Volt is going to be a breakthrough vehicle.”
Snell disputed the assertion he quoted Leno out of context, and pointed out that his article included, prominently, Leno’s positive comments about the Volt, specifically that the comic was excited about the technology.
In December, Leno posted a 10-minute video on his car website, jaylenosgarage.com, during which he gave the vehicle a test drive. In the segment, the denim-clad funnyman predicted the Volt would be a “breakthrough” and encouraged people to give it a try, adding “I think you’ll like it.”
SO who do we believe????? Maybe somewhere in the middle????
The link posted by “JOE” #82 has good info. It noted Leno has influence and his comments can impact perceptions of cars by the public. I can see why he is wants to “explain” is comments.
I like Jay and do watch his show along with Letterman.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/jay-leno-explaining-volt-remarks-rides-gms-defense/story?id=11198994
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:38 am)Amen! Our children may live long enough to see the day when ICE vehicles have purple (antique) license plates. ICE as a niche, I like the sound of that.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:45 am)You have a point but let’s not get hysterical. Yes hydraulic fracturing could be a problem. But it’s not obviously a problem since the fracturing occurs far beneath the water table so there isn’t a very natural way for the water table to become contaminated.
But yes there are risks and we need to put safeguards in place. The first thing that needs to happen is that the loophole championed by Dick Cheney and passed by the Republicans (yes Dick Cheney is still with us in more ways than the merely corporal), which permits the fracturing to avoid compliance with the Clean Water Act, needs to be repealed. How stupid is an exemption that even backers of fracturing think is a bad idea?
FWIW one of the major problems with the exemption is that it allows the drillers to keep secret the chemicals they’re using. This means that not only is there no science as to what works, there is no incentive to use best practices and there is no way to clean up a problem if one occurs since no one has any idea of what to look for.
But overall, not only is shale gas is a vastly better alternative than coal and oil from an environmental standpoint, it has immense geo-political advantages. Shale gs is located everywhere you’d like it to be — the US, China, and Europe — and not like oil which is located everywhere you don’t want it to be. It’s just a fantastic bridge technology.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:49 am)You will not be disappointed! (lol). The dealers should have promotions for test drives: “If you don’t grin, we’ll give you a Prius”. Well, maybe not a Prius, but *something* good.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:52 am)Give it a rest. It’s his opinion. He doesn’t want a Volt. I do. He has lots of sports cars. I have none. It’s just personal preference. Let the guy alone. Plus look at it this way. One less celebrity grabbing one of “our” Volts!
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:53 am)Oh noooooooooo Mr. Bill! Not a Prius.
But I suspect I’ll be grinning ear to ear.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:01 am)you could not pay me to drive this thing !
Tom
The picture at the top of the article is a bit misleading as its just the show car version of the Honda Insight which you can go and buy at any Honda dealer in the US (its Honda’s low cost hybrid).If you want to see what a concept EV from Honda looks like, hold your nose and go here:http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-honda-ev-n-concept/med/#2326743Makes the Leaf look great…. JMHO of course.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:04 am)Thanks for the link…. Jay is certainly getting good at retracting statements about the VOLT!
BUT, my big problem is with a national news site from ABCnews that puts out garbage…. how can we expect the public to get informed about what the VOLT is and what it can do for the average consumer, when we get quotes like this:
“The 2011 Chevy Volt uses gas to generate its own electric charge which can run the car up to 40 miles before the backup gasoline engine kicks in, resulting in the ability to travel far on a single tank of gas — or use no gas at all in under 40-mile trips. The company has said in news reports that it would average 230 miles to a gallon in city driving….”
WHAT?
or, “GM, which has fallen on hard times and needed government assistance to avert bankruptcy in 2008, has invested millions to create a car that would win over the green audience, extra hungry for fuel economy following the BP oil leak disaster. The car will go on sale late this year….”
Let’s get the dates and facts straight!
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:04 am)Western Lithium USA is the one that I am tracking. I am sure there are Lithium stocks from other countries but I don’t know how to track those.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:07 am)LOL, “Resistance is futile!”
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:08 am)Honda’s making a pretty good Civic hybrid just a little bit better! Hopefully the BEV is a nice and sensible one too! I wouldn’t mind driving a car without the marketing hype and just have a good little car for the little stuff. Isn’t that what Honda’s do?
I hope they have better results with the plugin than Toyota did in Seattle!
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:12 am)Offering a plug has always been in the plans. The redesign of the PSD back in 2003 bumped the EV only (engine motionless) speed up to 100 km/h… but sadly couldn’t be taken advantage of for quite some time due to battery technology constraints. Now with the 2010, they have an even more efficient direct-drive system that offers the same 100 km/h with even more power.
What is the realization?
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:15 am)GM definitely has an opportunity here. It looks like both Honda and Toyota are going to be a few years behind for once. GM needs to stay ahead and that means aggressive improvements to the Volt as well as the introduction and production of their own fully electric vehicle. Toyota and Honda are still by far highly favored carmakers and in order for GM to compete with them in the electric car market they will need to stay ahead.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:16 am)By the way, the initial builds of the first model of Prius (back in 1998) actually included a plug. But back then using just D-cell format batteries, it proved to offer little benefit.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:19 am)I wouldn’t refer to Honda’s hybrid efford as “weak”. It is instead “mild”. This isn’t to say that they don’t “strongly” believe in hybrid technology, just that they believe that mild hybrids for much lower prices will attract more buyers and therefore have a greater overall effect. The market has so far not taken up this approach but is slowly shifting.
Certainly you cannot take what Honda says as the “whole” truth. They would not have given any advantage to their competitors by bragging about long term projects like GM has done. That would be completely opposed to their corporate governance’s long held business philosopy. Instead, they wait for others to perform and publish breakthrough research and then they pounce on it an capitalize upon it in a highly efficient manner. That’s likely what is happening with this announcement also.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:23 am)Not plugging in any battery-augmented vehicle routinely will harm data-collection effort. The employees didn’t bother.
They weren’t actually plug-in models either. They were the previous generation vehicles with an aftermarket upgrades.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:35 am)We owned a Honda Civic hybrid the first year they came out. The hybrid system used an “intergrated motor assist” IMA type system, which basically married the electric motor to the ice. The car could not run on just the electric motor only. The gas engine was the main drive with the electric motor assisting the gas engine and was used for regen. braking as well. It was a smooth system except for not having AC when you stopped. I am wondering what kind of changes Honda is making in their IMA hybrid system to accomodate for the ability to drive in all electric mode or will the electric motor simply be bigger and the gas engine be smaller? Could Honda be coming out with a hybrid system like Nissan’s new single electric motor hybrid system, which can separate the gas from electric when needed. I am also wondering if Honda’s mid and larger hybrid systems will be the same as their smaller plug-in systems or how they will ghbe configured? My guess for their bev would be to use the same drive system for their fuel cell vehicle except for a big battery instead of the fuel cell stack and fuel tank. I think Nissan is claiming their NEW hybrid system will be the most efficient hybrid so far but who knows now with Honda’s new hybrid news. This could get difficult keeping all these versions sorted out.
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:36 am)You are accurate on the negative (the exemption in the clean water act- are you kidding me??), but your feeling that drilling doesn’t effect drinking water is WAY out of touch. There are many folks who have already been paid by the gas companies to get alternate drinking water. State governments know this and are involved. And you miss the physics. If you pump HIGH PRESSURE POISONED LIQUID into the ground, it will seek out points of lowest pressure. It does not matter that the drinking water wells are above the shale. Wells ARE and WILL BE contaminated by hydrofracking- you would be a FOOL to argue this point. Like I said, you can view videos of water on fire. Do a Youtube search. Here is one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bekzB7aUaaQ
As previously stated, hydrofracking makes “Clean Natural Gas” an oxymoron.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:39 am)If by “Prius-like” you mean “bone fugly”, then yes.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:45 am)I’ve actually seen on of those. They supposedly go 10 miles on the added batteries. Only problem is that the “upgrade” consists of hundreds of pounds of batteries in the trunk. The one I saw looked like the car was almost bottoming out. Sort of a joke.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:47 am)It will be interesting how cost and efficient this approach will be compared to it’s competition.
+5
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:52 am)Honda has been silently working on their “Mr. Incredible” car for a few years now, it’s called the EV-N….
lol…..
Mr. Incredible……
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:54 am)Some offer up to 30 miles (and better suspension).
Here’s real-world data posted from one last week, by an owner who takes full advantage of his upgrade…
Distance: 3536.4
Calculated MPG: 313.51
MPG Equivalent: 115.43 MPGe
Gallons gas used: 11.280 @ $2.779
Watt hours used: 650379.9 @ 8 cents per kWh
Watt hours per mile: 183.91
Total tank cost: $83.38
Cents per mile: 2.4
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:58 am)=) Yes!! just more EV’s on the road in 2012!!!! I think that 2012 will go down in history as the Year of the EV’s.
Lets’ Get the EV’s on the Road!!!
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:00 am)I wouldn’t look too much into that Prius you saw. Any “Aftermarket” mods are NEVER within specs of the cars OEM. Don’t know who made their batt pack but A123/Hymotion makes one close to the weight and size of the Prius MiMh pack. Jungle motors makes a pack larger but with a software tweak, they can get you 14-50 AER and up to 60mph.
https://junglemotors.com/Plug-In_Conversion.php
/need more coffee…..brb
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:02 am)My wife and I own a Prius and we did look into possibly getting one of the kits to “upgrade” our car. The cost was astonishingly high. That and the batteries were deep-cycle gel batteries with an average cost of $150 each. There were 4-5 of these in the kit. These batteries only last maybe 5 years, so every 5 years or so you have to spend another $750. Thus in reality the kit totally obliterates any fuel cost savings. I realize most who do this probably aren’t as concerned about that, but still- That’s a lot of money for not a lot of result.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:02 am)“it appears that GM, with their billion dollar investment, meticulus engineering, patents and testing efforts, is currently the clear leader in this automotive revolution. They appear to be years ahead of the others”
I hope GM’s billion dollar investment bears fruit.
However, I would like GM to embrace a strategy similar to BMW’s Efficient Dynamics strategy. A strategy that 1) quickly integrates technology efficiencies across the entire line-up, 2) spreads the cost across the company, 3) invests in cutting edge efficiencies in weight (carbon), drivetrain, and telematics while still maintaining the driving performance emphasis.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:02 am)I was referring to their new Honda Insight, not their earlier work. They wanted to compete against the Prius with it’s 60 kW motor using their 10kW toy motor so they could get the price down and call it a serious competitor. What a sad joke. It’s below Honda and I bet their engineers were against doing such a project (although they would never say a peep).
“The Insight combines a 1.3-liter SOHC aluminum-alloy i-VTEC engine and CVT, with a new generation of Honda’s IMA hybrid system. The Insight’s IMA system includes a 10 kW (13 hp) electric motor that delivers 68 lb-ft (92 Nm) of torque and a compact Intelligent Power Unit (IPU) consisting of a 5.75 Ah, 100.8V NiMH battery pack, Power Control Unit (PCU), motor Electric Control Unit (ECU), and cooling system.”
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:03 am)ICE doesn’t really work as a niche. Unless you’re really really dedicated. Because it wouldn’t pay for the gas station owners to carry gas if not too many people actually use it….
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:06 am)I hope you’re right about Honda and Toyota being behind. But that depends on whether GM’s willing to use their lead to produce enough cars to actually meet demand.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:08 am)There is only so much you can do when battery technology is the limiting factor. It is for BEV’s for sure. Cd is critical and the shape is dictated.
It’s not for Voltec.
This is why GM has the opportunity to design some really nice looking Voltec cars AND light trucks IF they are not married to demanding 40 miles on a charge. And even if they are, the next few years the battery tech may improve a little and give them some room for the designers to be more creative.
The LAST thing I want to see is 6 small cars from different manufacturers ALL LOOKING THE SAME, boring. This is what we will get with BEV’s for the next 5-8 years.
Voltec drivetrain will give us some design creativity back in the future, IMO. At least, I hope so. GM can really make a statement by NOT bowing to Cd in every design decision. And I think people will see, again, the advantage of an EREV over a BEV.
Imagine a car that looks like the new Regal getting 30 miles per electric charge and 35-40mpg in CS mode. They couldn’t build enough of them. And would BLOW AWAY anything offered by anyone else in the looks dept.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:11 am)I have to ask dude cuz i’m ignorant of the Insight but I do know a little of the IMA. Does the insight offer any all electric mode? I understand IMA is a DC motor in series with the output crank. I can’t see how it would get an electric only mode.
I could be way the hell off so correct me if I am.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:13 am)As you say, only a fool would think that fracking can be done willy-nilly without the possibility of contaminating drinking water. On the other hand, it’s equally foolish to think that it can’t be done safely and, in those rare cases where it may not be possible to do so, to not do it.
The other mistake you’re making — and I’m identifying it as a mistake because it’s so commonly made — is that you’re ignoring the fact that the current alternatives are also contaminating the drinking water supplies. Coal plants not only foul the air, they also do a very good job of fouling drinking water. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/us/13water.html?_r=1
And it’s not as though gas is clean. How many carcinogenic chemical do the oil companies put in gas? A lot. And these chemicals cause tens of thousands of deaths a year. The choice isn’t between clean technologies and natural gas, it’s between the nightmare of coal and oil and shale gas. Looked at this way shale gas is the clear winner. (This is reminiscent of the argument that wind isn’t a clean technology because it can kill birds).
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:14 am)It is so cute! (Not so sure I’d want to take it on the freeway though).
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:14 am)Shit man, i’ll take a 20AER small Colorado EREV pickup!!!!
Even if it just got 35 mpg, that’s better than the current ones now.
EREV pickup!!!!
EREV pickup!!!!
EREV pickup!!!!
EREV pickup!!!!
EREV pickup!!!!
EREV pickup!!!!
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:15 am)With all these companies coming out with cars in 2012, wouldn’t it be smart if they would all choose different geographic regions? They all want to start in California, why don’t some of them start out where there isn’t any competition. Honda could release in Northeast Ohio, Ford could have Michigan, GM California, Nissan Tennessee. Just tired of waiting thats all.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:16 am)We haven’t really heard anything about PHEV’s from Subaru (or Fuji Heavy Industries the company that owns them). I think they have an electric car in Japan, but nothing really big announced for the rest of the world. So maybe Honda isn’t the last player.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:16 am)By then, they’ll be able to whip up some synthetic gasoline in the cold-fusion plant in the basement.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:19 am)There is some indication that Jay may have been misquoted; but for the purposes of this comment, let’s pretend he wasn’t.
With the Volt, we are beginning a shift from performance cars which mostly look hot, with little innovation (or much remarkable) under the skin; to cars which look more “normal” yet have more than enough heat hidden away in their innovative drives.
Somewhere past Volt Gen III when Voltec has spread to several models (including super high-efficiency, larger and smaller vehicle sizes), I expect the original EREV to take “point” for EREV performance at GM. Could be wrong … but I think Volt will gradually become the “electric Camaro” that the original concept hinted at.
The muscle car “purists” are in for a shock.
ba-dump-bump.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:20 am)The “Car Talk Guys” on NPR love Subaru… Wonder what they think about a Subaru Hybrid or electric?
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:20 am)I agree maaan.
But 2012? That’s kind of late in the game IMHO. Should be at least early 2011. All the buzz will die down, people will slowly disregard BP spill, etc….
Should be be in late 2010 when everybody hits the market. That way my broke azz will have money for the second gen of the EV’s in 2012……lol
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:21 am)You have a point but I think there is room for variation. Cd is half of CdA so there is the A part. And you can cut down the A either by making the car narrower or have it ride closer to the ground. The Volt and the Leaf have roughly the same Cd but they don’t look that similar, at least to me. And the Tesla Roadster probably has a smaller CdA than either the Volt or the Leaf.
Wind tunnel testing has turned up some interesting results, including the fact that you don’t need wheel covers so long as the wheels fill the well and that sharp edges can be more aerodynamic than smooth ones. As designers spend more time in the wind tunnel I think we’ll see different designs.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:22 am)Ditto on the predictions (God Willing), but a post above provides a link to Mr. Leno’s correction.
HTH,
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:23 am)lol…
I wonder how much it weighs.
/CD? not too aero if u ask me…..
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:26 am)Exactly, thats the point. GM still has an advantage IMO because the landscape in front of them is not necessarily limited by Cd and vehicle size and weight like it is for BEV’s.
I don’t understand why more companies aren’t looking towards EREV’s. The general public is not going to easily give up style and design for mpg, ESPECIALLY since they won’t really have to with future EREV’s.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:29 am)I could probably find out what they use. One of the types of systems we build is fracking equipment. There is a definite science to the process. Different companies use different media too (sand, ceramics, etc). Fracking has really taken off lately. We are selling lots of equipment.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:29 am)There were gasoline powered automobiles before there were specialized “gas stations.” Gasoline was already sold through some drug and hardware stores as a cleaning fluid — in small bottles. Wealthy tinkerers and collectors could have it shipped to them by rail in larger containers. In the future, I expect there will be places on the Internet where the hobbyists can order some kind of compatible fuel for a few old-fashioned collector cars — shipped electrically to their doors.
beautiful dreamer …
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:31 am)Lol. Maybe. But, personally, I’m hoping that EVs will be mainstream before the year 2300…
+5
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:37 am)It’s pretty amusing to watch Toyota, Audi, and Honda back-peddle on the plug-in hybrid issue. Audi’s CEO called hybrid supporters stupid, and Toyota didn’t want to confuse their hybrid users with the idea of plugging in a hybrid. The CEO of Honda, Takeo Fukui, said the Volt made “little sense”, with an “unnecessary fuel engine and fuel tank”.
Oh, how times change. Thanks, GM, for your leadership on this technology.
PS: Here’s the WSJ article from October 2007 with Takeo Fukui’s take on the Volt:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119313344275568239.html
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:37 am)Agreed. Hence the “really really dedicated” exception. But, in terms of it being more convenient than electric cars? That depends on widespread adoption. Which means that if BEVs ever hit a critical number, the ICE will eventually become obsolete for the vast majority of users.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:39 am)Yeah, sadly, they aren’t due until the fall of that year (g). That of course, assumes that the 12/24/2012 end of the world prediction isn’t correct. With my luck, my Volt delivery date will be 12/25/2012.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:40 am)Ugh. If this is the Honda EV, “the last one has fallen” will be an understatement.
I’ve always thought that Honda would benefit from an ER-EV architecture; they are already expert at mass-producing smaller, clean internal combustion engines. At this rate, perhaps they’ll make gensets for someone else, lol.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:42 am)I’m not a Tesla fan, but doesnt the Tesla model S have a very low Cd? It certainly isn’t boring. Just saying…
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:43 am)Well Merry Christmas to you, too!
BTW, the Volt’s computer won’t be Mayan-calendar-compliant.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:43 am)Even *here* ,early on, we had an ongoing argument, er, I mean discussion, about whether the Volt would even get past the *concept* phase. It was exciting back then and it’s even more exciting now!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-7
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:46 am)No, reality is it has just been a long wait.
Lithium based automotive-grade battery technology provided low yields at high cost.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:46 am)Don’t be too sure! Remember the horror of Y2K (lol).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:48 am)Truth in labeling?
-2
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:49 am)Question: “What is a “plug-in hybrid electric vehicle”?
Answer: “A vehicle that can do almost nothing without burning gas.”
The idea that a plug-in hybrid cannot provide substantial all electric range is bogus.
And once the AER is used up, the hybrid power train might actually burn less gas than an EREV.
Once we know the charge sustaining mode mileage, we will be able to compare the two technologies. May the best car win.
-3
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:49 am)John, you’re starting to whine.
Not that you care, but the first Li/Ion automobile of note, the Tesla Roadster, used laptop batteries because there was no “Lithium based automotive-grade battery technology.” That had to wait for the Volt project; and the first serious attempt to develop such (with surprising results; at least, for Asian carmakers).
+4
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:51 am)I little off topic …
I was talking to the local Chevy (sorry Chevrolet) dealership owner today and asked him about the Volt. His dealership is just north of Columbus, Ohio and he said he thinks he will be getting them in 6 – 9 months from now. He said he thinks he will get a few a month based on his sales volume which is 3rd in the state of Ohio. So at least we should start seeing some Volts in Ohio by March. He told me that 80% of the Volts components are made in Ohio and then shipped to MI for assembly. He also said that it is illegal for GM to tell some dealers they can not sell Volts and others they can. He said ALL dealers are going to have to be trained on service and therefore ALL dealers are allowed to sell the car. Allocation will be based on sales volume so some dealers will get 1 a month to sell while others may get 10.
I told him about this site and he said he was well aware of gm-volt and checks it often.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:51 am)IN THE YEAR 2000!…………..(fill in the blank)
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:51 am)I agree there’s been some of that – in fact, GM took a big risk at a time when the battery technology was iffy. I can respect those companies who said that batteries weren’t quite ready. But to say, as Toyota did, that plugging in hybrids was too confusing for their customers ventures into the area of spin. It’s harder to back-track from spin than from reasoned arguments.
-3
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:53 am)How about just sticking to lithium-based battery production comments?
Several automakers will be offering some next year.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:56 am)I think Toyota’s concern was cost of the cells and not necessarily the performance. The older commodity LiPo’s and LiFePO4 cells were quite expensive 2 years ago. Now you can buy large form factor prismatic s for cheap. Seems most of the big OEM’s are going for LiMn.
Here’s a single cell 100AH:
http://evcomponents.com/cscart/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29838
Here’s a pack of 4 20AH for $120.00:
http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=74
Gonna scoop up 3 of the 20AH sets for a free electric scooter mongoose I got. Dude said it was dead. He was right……………It needed batteries.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:59 am)re: johnboy
Mr. President……
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:59 am)If a PHEV has to accelerate beyond a certain degree, or above a given speed, the engine must start. In the EREV, all acceleration and speed is achieved electrically for the first 40 miles. Which car uses the least gas depends on how, and how far between charges, you drive your car.
When the Gen I CS-mode mileage is determined, it won’t represent the end of the discussion; large or small. CS-mode exists in exactly one car, for the first time. Future generations of Voltec will improve the figure. For a first blush, I think you’ll find the Gen I Volt’s CS-mode an eye-opener, if not an actual home run.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:01 pm)I have two friends w/Subaru’s and they love them too. I would never buy the cars they did, but they seem happy w/their purchases. Subaru owners almost seem to be in the same boat as Saturn owners. There is definately some loyalty there like a “family”.
-3
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:01 pm)Okay, and you keep apologizing for Toyota.
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:02 pm)True for the aftermarket conversion. Google is trying it too with a Hymotion/A123 production version with the same type of results.
Nobody plugs them in. So, is the concept viable or just marketing?
They’re probably so used to driving a regular hybrid for outstanding fuel economy that the idea of plugging in just doesn’t seem to matter much.
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:10 pm)Good or bad, what Tesla has is a pack that uses hella cells. I think they are the 2100mAH Panasonic cells. Now, this April, Panasonic delivered their new 3100mAH cells to Tesla…
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/23/panasonics-3-1ah-batteries-to-be-used-in-the-tesla-model-s-hav/
That cell is ~50% more capacity. Same form factor and size as well as voltage specs for LVC, HVC but higher discharge rate. Current BMS won’t need much tweaking, ditto for charge controller. Tesla now has a new pack with ~50% more capacity and power delivery. That allows Tesla to keep their current pack architecture for another generation all done with commodity cells. Doesn’t the current pack have a 300 mile range? Anyone care to calculate the new range with this new cell?
/I aint the brightest bulb in the string so yall can do the calc.
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:17 pm)Let Google’s data speak for itself:
68.7 MPG – highway
93.5 MPG – overall
101.9 MPG – mixed trips
115.1 MPG – city
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:20 pm)Good to hear of a manufacturing sector doing well. Yes fracking is taking off. If you look at the natural gas basin which extends from Maine to Mississippi you have a hint why. http://www.energyindustryphotos.com/shale_gas_map_shale_basins.htm
I suspect the Cd is in the .34-.37 range. However, that’s not such a big deal because the frontal area (A) is so small that overall drag should be better than it is for most vehicles on the road.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:24 pm)Looks good for the ideal numbers, but aren’t you quoting the RechargIT numbers not the Google staff numbers?
Makes nice marketing, though!
Real world fuel economy at Google = 57.6 mpg.
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:25 pm)Thanks, Jay! You’re a great American… or not.
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:32 pm)This is a bit OT, but only a bit. Here’s an article in the American entitled “The Automobile’s Forgotten Secret: In it lies the real key to the electric car’s success or failure.”
http://american.com/archive/2010/july/the-automobiles-forgotten-secret
Here’s the first few paragraph’s and an important criticism of pure EVs:
I think the author is on to something here, and it supports GM decision to make the Volt and EREV rather than a pure EV. An EREV has plenty of potential, but until a fast charging battery with a high energy density and charging infrastructure are available, pure EVs seem destined to be a household’s second car.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:35 pm)What if it were to turn out that Volt were to use some parallel capacity, as some were speculating it might, while in CS mode? The definition lines in the future could really start getting blurred. We might have to talk about Volt 1a type architecture, Prius early plug-in type, etc.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:39 pm)It’s an interesting alternative to the larger cells. Tesla uses a lot of cells but those cells are relatively inexpensive. If they can come up with the controller technology then its approach may turn out to be cost effective and a winner. Of course the other disadvantage is that these cells lose capacity over a fairly short period of time so you’re going to have to replace them every few years.
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:40 pm)Seems like the Toyota and Honda vehicles are stopgaps until we see if the Volt proves the concept of using a significant battery.
Engineering a 40 mile plugin just for the US market is a nice sized leap in chassis development. Hard to justify when off the shelf cars are ready to be converted and brought to market comparatively quickly.
For us, these cars are half hearted efforts to have “me too!” products.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:43 pm)Here’s the important takeaway from that article:
“On Tuesday, Mr. Fukui stressed Honda could easily develop a plug-in hybrid within two years. “But I don’t think that would contribute to the global environment, to reduce [global warming gas] emissions,” he said.”
All Honda needed was TWO YEARS to do field a competitor to the Volt. And now it’s 2010 and Honda has a slew of new advanced tech vehicles hitting the streets in 2010,l 2011 and 2012. GM will only have a single vehicle in low-volume production. GM’s 4 years of constant PR will result in maybe 6 months of actual leadership over Honda and perhaps less.
Some of us warned of this.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:45 pm)That’s the current version of the Honda Insight. You can buy one at your local Honda Dealer today!
It looks like the Prius, because it was designed by a wind tunnel. It was intended to be a lower-cost competitor to the Prius, and its ratings aren’t quite as good. Unfortunately for Honda, Toyota dropped the price of the Prius to something comparable right after the introduction, thereby destroying a lot of its niche.
The official MPG ratings for the Insight aren’t as good as the official MPG ratings for the Prius. But, those ratings aren’t the whole story — I occasionally hear hypermilers getting good numbers out of the Insight in real life. But it’s important not to confuse the original Honda Insight with the new Honda Insight, so it’s possible that I’ve put the right numbers into the wrong bucket.
While the Prius’ hybrid system appears to have been designed around the transmission, the Insight’s hybrid system revolves engine — like the Honda Civic Hybrid. This makes it possible for the insight to be sold with a manual transmission. So, if you want a Prius but won’t buy a car without a clutch, the Insight is probably the car for you.
I’m a happy Prius driver, though, so trading my Prius in for a car that’s 90% as good for 95% of the cost of my car isn’t on my agenda, but I’m happy to see the Insight on the road.
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:48 pm)If so, then I forgive him.
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:49 pm)Ok boys. Now be nice and stop sticking your fingers in the other ones ears…
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:53 pm)I found 0.27, which is what i was recalling. I know at the time this was annouced there was some debate here.
———————-
“The 300-mile range is possible (vs the Roadster’s 244-mile range) because the S has 8,000 battery cells vs. 6,000 in the Roadster, the batteries have been improved in mass and volumetric performance, and there is more advanced cell chemistry in each cell, and the S has a cd of about .27 vs. the Roadster’s drag coefficient of .35″
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/03/26/tesla-model-s-50-000-ev-sedan-seats-seven-300-mile-range-0-6/
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:59 pm)Man, It’s conceptual chaos!
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (12:59 pm)I think its been stated numerous times by numerous GM engineers/spokesmen/managers that the Volt’s wheels will be driven by electricity alone, and there is no mechanical linkage from the ICE to the wheels. I tend to believe them and that the Volt is truely a series hybrid. BUT, we wont know 100% for sure until someone tears one apart.
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:00 pm)At least lick your finger first!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!
/wet willie…..
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:03 pm)You’re welcome on the link. Their original EV (back when the EV1 was on the loose) was a pretty ugly beast as well (didn’t cry too much about Honda shredding those as soon as they could, which they did).
Hopefully Honda does not move forward with that concept EV design (although I wouldn’t be surprised – only a few faithful will want that and if Honda sees the EV as a money loser…).
God help them if they try and make a plug in hybrid using their IMA architecture (I’d think it would be a forgone conclusion they wouldn’t try it, but dropping the mild hybrid IMA might be a loss of face for them, which can cause some weird decisions to become viable).
It’ll be interesting to see what the details for both vehicles turn out to be.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:04 pm)Love the post. This IS the issue. It seems hard for some people to understand that a car isn’t just getting from point A to point B, its for getting from ANY point A to ANY point B at ANY time. It’s about utility that people need whether or not they need it every day. This is what the car has always represented, and gas prices, EV’s , or the desire of some to dictate to others how and what they should drive will not change this view for the majority of Americans. Sorry. The open freedom represented by a vehicle is too ingrained into the masses.
There are always “better” solutions or “more efficient” solutions, but until efficiency is required and legislated, the free will of the population will play out.
The key is to provide the efficiency without the reduction in freedom. EREV’s will do this.
Assuming it was possible or practical, if every vehicle in the country was an EREV tomorrow, NOTHING would really change other than saving immense quantities of gasoline. Everyone could get where their going, no problems.
If every car in the US was an EV tomorrow, there would be chaos everywhere. Not to mention it would be affected by local weather, traffic situations. IMO, this is the point of EREV’s and the problem with BEV’s. EREV’s provide no real restriction.
I know this is not a popular view to some around here, but I think it is realistic.
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:09 pm)FYI:
I did a crude napkin calculation of the amount of fuel it would take to propel the Volt with the generator only. The assumptions are: driving at a constant rate of 6o mph, using a 250 W/mile, generator output would need to be about 15 kW.
Based on a diesel generator of 20 HP running a 3/4 load, its fuel consumption would be about 1.3 gal/hr. This translates to an mpg of about 60/1.3 = 46.15 mpg!
This is not including all the other mechanical and electrical losses of the Volt. So, my guess is that the Volt gets between 35-40 mpg.
Also, this was a diesel generator, and I could not find the gas equivalent (read as lazy). So, this would make the Volts gas calculations even slightly less (~10% less?)
That was fun! Be kind…
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Sales are the ultimate measure of progress. Leadership means exceeding the competition.
Hyping new technology but continuing to produce just traditional vehicles doesn’t accomplish anything.
The heavily repeated statement of meeting demand up to 60,000 in the second year is already an expectation that was withdrawn. What about the third year?
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:29 pm)Jay Leno claims he was misquoted, maybe misspeak and that’s good enough for me. To see his collection and restoration of auto antiquities-try this. http://www.jaylenosgarage.com
I watched a piece on Speed- his restoration of a 1907 White Steam car. It runs.
True, Leno wants excitement. I bet a VOLT SS version dressing up VOLT showrooms would do the trick. Note to GM: Converj is ready to go – now.
Honda. You’ll see model designations omitted in CEO Takanobu announcements. VOLT’s very decent battery warranty no doubt fueled (yea yea) Honda’s rather hastily assembled EV policy. “Ye faithful Honda-nites – do not be tempted – because VOLT – we’ll be there… .”
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:33 pm)I’m misquoted all the time…..
“I said ‘Peanuts’ when she heard me…..not Pe _ _ _”
/get your minds in the gutter!
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:34 pm)Your post and it’s referenced post reflects my thoughts since I first read about the VOLT.
If electric cars are to be the future the only real option for everyday use – long trips any time any place, when needed, is an Extend Range Battery Electric Vehicle. Sooner or later others will figure it out.
It appears some companies are waking up…. GM can enjoy the lead for now.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:38 pm)My step dad grew up on a farm. He had a saying about walking by an old cow pile. Dried up, in the sun, relatively harmless- but don’t kick it! You compare oil and coal to the natural gas as if they were all sitting on a shelf and we could choose which one to pull off. It is as much about DEVELOPMENT of this unused, dirty resource as anything else.
I wrote a letter to my congressional representatives a year ago about the experimental wells BP was drilling in the Gulf. Now, I appear to be a sage. The point at that time, though, was about development costs. BP averaged about $170M per successful well BEFORE one drop of oil was available. I made no arguments about wells already in production. I made the point that $170M could be used in much better ways (think several THOUSAND households off the grid with solar). It is bad enough that we go off and burn these fuels once the well (or mine) exists. You want to go CREATE more of these planet killers.
The Marcellus shale is one big cow pile. I say we avoid kicking it. If you watch the documentary “Fuel” (from 2008), you will see an interesting discussion about all the truck loads of “stuff” that go into drilling one of these monsters. Thousands of tons of resources BEFORE anybody’s drinking water source is polluted and health is threatened. For crying out loud, you point out that the regulations aren’t even appropriate RIGHT NOW. So, by your admission, we are not even at the starting point of properly developing this “resource”. Drill, baby, drill- let’s pick up the pieces later.
My fellow earthling, we are at a fork in the road right now. Each new gas well is a decision to go down a road that we know ends in a toxic landfill. There is little difference in shaving off the top of a mountain to get to the coal underneath. You imply that we make a decision to either shave off the top of the mountain or inject tons of toxic chemicals into the earth. I vote we do NEITHER! Take those resources and apply them elsewhere. From wind to biofuels, we have many things to choose. If environmental costs ever had a price tag, these energy companies would change their tune in a heartbeat.
The Marcellus shale is not a resource. It is a temptation. The gas is locked away in much the same way nuclear waste is when buried underground. The methane has been sequestered just as it has been under the arctic ice. It is as if nature was trying to protect us from ourselves. I get the hint. I hope others will as well.
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:46 pm)Just look at the stealth bomber. Pretty crazy idea at the time.
I’m thinking more about form following function however. If you take 4 (or 5) people, sit them down comfortably with car controls within reach and ability to see 360 degrees and meeting all government requirements, ya pretty much get the final shape being the same car-like shape.
Ya can’t really deviate from that much without hurting efficiency or sales.
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:47 pm)Personally, neither the LEAF nor Volt will ever fit my long haul needs. They’re both too small for the fam. It’s my wife’s fault! She packs like were on a 6 day trip to BFE. Most of the time we’re only at Disneyland for 3 days, maybe 4 at the longest. No way either cars will fit our crap.
A bag for shoes? DAAAAAANG!!!
A “Makeup bag”??? WTF?
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:57 pm)So this means that you’ll measure first year Volt (or LEAF, or Honda EV) sales against first year Prius sales, and second year non-Toyo EV sales vs 2nd year Prius sales, etc. Right?
Yes, it will be awhile before sales of some non-Prius beats Toyota in any given year, but that’s not the same as pretending that it can’t happen, based on this year’s sales or next.
The Prius has been sold for ten years. What volumes will Voltec or BEVs achieve 10 years from now, that is the relevant question.
Jul 20th, 2010 (1:59 pm)Dare I say — plug in two mode? Probably not.
And BTW, I always lick my finger first.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (2:14 pm)There is also something called ‘good enough’. Maybe it’s good enough to drive a Cruze or Fit rather than an SUV. Maybe it’s good enough to drive a mid-size like Volt.
For me, a BEV-100 is good enough for all my commuting-type driving. I have other vehicles to haul furniture (a 45′ U-Haul comes to mind) or go on a driving vacation. A Volt might do it (don’t know, haven’t seen one), but, it looks pretty small for long-distance highway driving.
Don’t really need to incur the expense to keep a diesel dually pickup in my driveway for those rare occasions where I need to 4×4 across the field to feed the horses. (Since I don’t have horses or land.) It certainly wouldn’t fit in the garage.
-6
Jul 20th, 2010 (2:17 pm)Pretending automakers have learned or done nothing with motor & battery technology since then isn’t the slightest bit constructive. Don’t even try to spin the fact that GM hasn’t been pursuing other types of electric propulsion in the meantime either.
GM promised capacity to meet demand up to 60,000 the second year. They recanted already. So, I expect that the third instead.
Leadership (game changing) doesn’t come from low-volume sales.
Jul 20th, 2010 (2:40 pm)Glad to see Honda releasing info on their electric drive plans.
The Gulf spill from just one of many many thousands of wells in the Gulf,
confirm to all with this one catastrophe, that electric drive is something
that we must do.
-2
Jul 20th, 2010 (2:46 pm)Also… back then… oil was abundant… cheap… safe… we didn’t have worries about the climate, smog, or dependency either.
That’s all changed since then.
The same casual rollout pace doesn’t make sense anymore.
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (2:52 pm)LOL I hope you keep posting such funny things here. I need the good laugh. Leadership always starts with low-volume sales.
What is Toy recalling this week???
New toy ad “our cars can’t stop, can’t steer, run off on their own and the spare tires fall out going down the road. But hey we are going to try harder and we are sorry about all the people we killed”
Jul 20th, 2010 (2:54 pm)OT
Just saw a You Tube video about the VOLT braking system testing at the Milford proving grounds ( from the Chevy Volt web site – Facebook)
The lady doing the tests noted traction and stability controls on the VOLT.
This brings a question I have had about the VOLT… actually a safety issue….
**Can the “traction control” be “turned off” so if one has to go up a hill in a winter snow covered driveway w/o the car stopping because of slippage? Winter driver sometimes requires the need for the driver to manage the wheel slip, not the car.
Sad example in my Prius .. when I tried to keep going up a snow covered hill to leave my drive the Prius keep “putting on the brakes.” The car stops and slides backwards. NOT A SAFE Option.
Does anyone know about the traction/stability control options on the VOLT in this area??? :+}
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (2:56 pm)I stumbled on this mention recently (July 13). First clue in a long time that it is even alive.
In addition to the Volt, Fletcher (pictured left) has charge of the plug-in hybrid program that was orphaned when Saturn died. She says that project has been revived. “There are development vehicles running, we’re doing cold and hot weather testing, and we’re moving ahead with it aggressively,” she said, declining to say which brand name it will carry.
http://www.mnn.com/transportation/cars/blogs/behind-every-chevy-volt-is-a-woman
Jul 20th, 2010 (3:21 pm)This article from Tesla may help:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/evolving-landscape-evs
“Many people have criticized GM for spinning the issue and calling the Volt an EV with a range extender, and not a hybrid. Those people are usually surprised when I tell them I agree with GM 100% on this. Although the technical terminology of series hybrid has been in existence for over 100 years, the marketplace has redefined “Hybrid” in such a way that I think it misrepresents the key differences between the platforms. You might argue that the average Joe won’t understand the difference between series and parallel hybrid systems if you were to tell them about it but I can assure you that they will understand the difference when they get behind the wheel…”
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (3:23 pm)You can always count on john1701a to:
* Take a position supporting the Prius (regardless of thread topic)
— Remember, this one started out to be about Honda
— Notice when the thread turned to the Prius PHV: Shortly after he turned up.
— Deny or minimize any feature which might make Volt seem superior or substantially different from the Prius
* Diminish the ideas behind Volt as flawed
— Pick and harp upon the one study which says fewer than 78% of Americans drive 40 miles or less a day, as though the more than half it found proves that Volt is doomed.
— Hammer the SAE's decision that Volt is a PHEV (They're wrong. They will eventually be forced to change)
* Refuse to compare apples to apples when it comes to progress (10th year of Prius vs 1st year for Volt)
* Eventually come to snipe at the Volt and deny its right to exist.
However, most of you seem to want to complain about me opposing him. Why will you not defend the Volt against this slick, unchanging Prius troll? John1701a is not a friend of the Volt, or of you. He should at least be voted into invisibility every time he appears; that way, no one will be able to view his screed.
Check out where he’s coming from:
http://www.john1701a.com
-6
Jul 20th, 2010 (3:50 pm)Yes, well said, +1.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (3:54 pm)Everything your saying is true. If everyone would go to his web site you posted John701a.com they would see he is a very sick person who needs help. He has a very unnatural love for the Prius. Why he would come to this Volt site is hard to understand. But I think the dumb things he post here are very funny.
Jul 20th, 2010 (3:58 pm)Back when? The 40′s had oil rationing for the war. Maybe the 50′s. The 60′s? Yeah right! The 70′s and pollution control? and so forth.
You just keep on trying…
ZT +1
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:03 pm)Don’t worry. Be Happy.
The only other forum I ever participated in proved to me that you can rapidly age if you let unknown souls have their way with you. There is an 80/20 rule that applies to most everything in life. In this case, it might be that you spend 80% of your time on the 20% of the people who will never listen to you anyway. After that previous forum (it was about 9 years ago, now), I vowed I would never get caught up in it again. This forum changed my mind. I tend to avoid the concept of just speaking my mind. We all have opinions. To me, this is a good place to absorb information and offer things that might educate others. There are enough Rush Limbaughs and Al Sharptons (polarizing big mouths) to elevate our blood pressure stats.
Here is one of my favorite phrases, “Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.”
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:20 pm)You said it Rashiid. It, apparently, is inspired by a 50′s Honda of some sort. As someone who is looking forward to electric automobile transportation, there are very few EV’s that I can up and away just say, “I would not buy that, ever.”, but this is one.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:24 pm)Actually, the Prius is in it’s 13th year. They started selling in 1997.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius
The rest of your post is spot on, +1.
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:28 pm)Yes, Lyle has done wonders if only to prove to GM that they will have a customer base and give them a reason to move forward, even committing to Gen 2!
I have to press on one more thing, though, because it’s hard to believe it hasn’t come up more, especially as automakers struggle to meet new CAFE demands. COMPRESSED AIR HYBRID. It’s much cheaper than electric hybrid, gets about the same gain in efficiency (even better balanced for larger vehicles), and doesn’t use up the rare earth metals that will be even more rare when we need them for plug-ins.
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE plug-in tech and especially E-REV, but for all the straight hybrids (and I drive one, the Civic) I just think air is better and should be commercialized. Amen.
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:30 pm)That’s a fantastic video, BTW. The link to it is in the last thread toward the end.
(Yippee – #49 went “green”)(g)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:33 pm)To defend you, we’d need to attend to johnboy. Just give the -1 and move on. If more people actually handed the -1′s to him, we’d be able to advance the Volt discussion. JMO
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:34 pm)I agree.
+6
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:38 pm)I guess the question should be, what the heck has Toyota been doing. Why don’t they have a plug in their car. The darn car has been around with a battery for more than 10 years. It looks like GM had to come out with a plug before Toyota could even consider it.
What car company is stodgy and stuck in their ways here?
Toyota must be in bed with big oil and they don’t want people using grid power.
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:42 pm)I have this in needlepoint (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:42 pm)OT but fun. I stopped reading your post and checked out her story too! I’d like to see her take on that BMW guy that beat Bob Lutz and his V Caddy. Seems like she’d kick some butt there too. I hope that she, and her motorhead spirit, moves up in GM.
-3
Jul 20th, 2010 (4:57 pm)So is the Volt a remake of the whole EV1 story?
GM was out in front (like the Volt), that scared the Japanese auto makers into responding with hybrids (now PHEV’s, BEV’s), then GM went limp by killing the EV1 (today: producing too few Volts), and Toyota marched on with the Prius while GM built the Hummer.
History does have a way of repeating itself, though hopefully not in this case
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (5:04 pm)Not hardly.
The EV1 was a case of the govt (CARB) forcing the automakers to make BEVs before they were really cheap enough for mass adoption.
Today, we still debate whether the EV is a good idea and we wish for further battery developments. When the EV1 was around, batteries were not as good and gas was cheaper. The EV1 was not a good business idea and it only evolved because of CARB mandates.
CARB then dropped the mandates after hearing much from all parties involved. They decided to drop the mandate. With the mandate dropped, the EV1 no longer made any sense for a company like GM that is built on a business model of building cars on an assembly line in 10s to 100s of thousands of units. There was no way they could have sold EV1 for 60 – 80,000 dollars in those numbers and there was no way it made sense to produce a few of them for EV enthusiasts.
For the true EV enthusiast, there has always been small companies that would and could make EVs for a price. That is just not the business model for GM.
The Volt, however, is not being made due to govt mandate. It is being mandated by the fact that a large number of people actually want to save gas and the technology is at a point where the car can be made at the edge of affordability.
Jul 20th, 2010 (5:59 pm)When the government reg’s were withdrawn, Toyota did not simply drop and move on, they continued development on hybrids. GM simply went back to ICE’s as far as I know. Oh ya, and the perennial Hydrogen car.
My point is that GM is again out in front technologically with the Volt, leading the Japanese (and everyone else). Will they blow their lead by not producing enough to meet demand while simultaneously stimulating the other car companies to get respond? Is GM serious about staying the leader or will their attention wander back to ICE’s? I hope they continue to lead, but if not, the other car companies may become the turtles that beat the hare.
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:05 pm)The title of her story is, “Confessions of an Adrenaline Junkie Turned Engineer.”
I meant to send this to ZT because of his comment about her yesterday.
The link to the video is about #140 in yesterday’s thread. The Valarie story is on another site.
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:21 pm)Went back and checked the thread. Good stuff!! “…but officer…” sounds about right, if he could catch her!!!
She must be the Daisy AND the Duke brothers!
As a Texas girl.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:27 pm)GM is using the LG cells, I believe those were developed for Hyundai hybrids, probably a push from the Korean government.. Hyundai will beat GM to the first use of these cells in their new hybrids. Nissan/NEC have been working on their cells since 2000 and will soon change over to their second generation formula.. there are many other companies but they started recently making automotive cells.
BTW, the Panasonic laptop cells used by the Tesla are EXCELLENT (the Roadster may use a different brand), they are made by the billions in automated equipment and are probably the best in the world.. but making a large pack out of them is expensive. The chinese are retailing LiFePO4 cells for around $350/kwh and that will probably keep improving.. they are the low cost winners right now. The $350 is probably half of what GM and Nissan are paying for their cells. A123 was the loser in that fiasco, they essentially gave their tech to the chinese.
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:35 pm)This is really getting off topic but Valerie said the Volt uses a brake accumulator that dramatically shortens pedal to brake reaction time vs a hydraulic system. Does it work in part of the regen (to match reaction time) to better balance brake feel and better balance the entire application? I was wondering if this is a deliberate effort to keep the brakes from having that EV/hybrid regen jolt that other vehicles seem to have.
My drive in the Volt was especially notable for the brake feel. It was good and, well, normal.
A little more info would be appreciated. What other cars does GM have this system in? How reliable and proven is it?
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (6:47 pm)Hey Cappy,
You’re not way off, but you’re not totally on either.
The IMA electric rotor is hard fixed to the crankshaft. But there is some “electric only”. At times they will close all the valves to reduce pumping losses and let the electric motor spin the crank and pistons without there being any “fire in the hole”. This capability has, however, been eliminated on the CR-Z’s version of IMA, …. something about sacrificing that for more power , …. I forget.
Oh yeah, here’s the link:
“Since the motor is hard-coupled to the engine, there is no mechanism to shut-off and de-couple the engine and drive on electric power alone the way strong hybrids like those from Toyota and Ford. Starting several years ago with the Civic Hybrid, Honda added the ability to shut off fuel flow and close the valves with the VTEC variable valve timing system when cruising at low speeds. This allows the car to motor along on just electricity. However, the hard-coupling means that the crankshaft is still turning and the pistons are pumping. The result is more drag than you would find in a strong hybrid. Because of the sportier nature of the CR-Z, the VTEC system has been used to increase power rather than boost efficiency, so it can’t motor along on electrons alone. ”
Deep Dive: Getting intimate with the 2010 Honda CR-Z’s powertrain
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/18/deep-dive-getting-intimate-with-the-2010-honda-cr-zs-powertrai/
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:21 pm)BTW,
I still think Honda has a lot of bang for the buck PHEV potential with the IMA parallel system.
IMO – programming will be everything when trying to keep the the plug in pack sized correctly (i.e. maybe 5 or 7 kwh) and utilizing it smartly for power assist. I don’t know that AER is really as important as many seem to think — at least not when you’re trying to get the most mpg out of the smallest battery ( i.e. a plug in hybrid that people can afford).
With the correct programming the computer could learn your driving habits/routes and figure out how much blending to do throughout the charge to charge driving cycle in order to maximize mpg. GPS input and “learning” ability would be required.
I thought emphasis on blending was the way Ford was headed with their PHEV.
Toyota seemed to focus more on the AER (not blending) until the grid charge runs out and then switches back to regular hybrid mode — John1701a is this correct and if so do you know why ??
+6
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:29 pm)My husband needs to find something else to be doing other than looking at the volt! I am sure many of your wives or employers would agree (for those of you who do this at work!)
PS–Just kidding! Keep amusing my husband! Lyle–you are his hero!
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:35 pm)The Prius was not a result of the EV-1, the EV-1 was a result of a mandate from California (CARB) for BEVs when gas was selling for $1 a gallon. GM messed up by developing a whole new car from the ground up, spending a humongous amount of money.. instead they should have converted one of their existing models like Toyota did with the RAV4.. that was just poor management at GM. The EV-1 was made of gold plated aluminum.. and hand made. Lots of the engineering (such as the T-Pack) was reused in the Volt, along with lots of consumer research that GM did at the time.
The reason that Toyota made the Prius can be blamed on the US government.. I forget the year or the name of the program but they asked the Detroit 3 manufacturers to develop cars that could do 50-80mpg, the US provided $ billions for this, but they excluded foreign manufacturers by law. GM, Ford and Chrysler actually developed Prius-like hybrids with diesel engines that were getting 80mpg, and they had prototypes on the road.. but once the government stopped the program they just dropped these cars since the public was not interested in very expensive econoboxes. Toyota was excluded from the gov program, and they were terrified of technologically being left behind once they saw what the Detroit 3 came out with.. thus they developed the Prius using their own funds and actually put the car in production. Today Toyota is making a killing selling the Prius at a very high profit, and will probably dominate the electric car market for the foreseable future because of that. People will not differentiate between a Volt and a Prius or a LEAF.
Jul 20th, 2010 (7:59 pm)John1701a — (or if somebody else knows)
(not picking on you, just figure you might be able to answer the question)
Here’s an Argonne Lab thingy that says they’ve found blended mode (like Ford’s PHEV escape, I think) is superior (most cost effetive) to charge depleting mode (like Prius’ PHEV).
This makes sense to me. Do you have any info on why the Prius PHEV basically drains the pack first off (at least up to a certain speed) and then switches to regular hybrid mode?
Thanks
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/452.pdf
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:03 pm)Time will tell. I *hope* that Toyota can reagin their sense for quality. They are now looking forward to another grand jury about their response to the latest product recall. If they do get their ducks in a line (and even if they don’t), there will need to be an ongoing educational process to educate the consumer about the Volt’s superiority (for most drivers). JMO.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-2
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:08 pm)Another study that says blended mode (of which Honda’s IMA is capable) is best for keeping costs down.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/42469.pdf
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:21 pm)Study Concludes That Smaller Capacity PHEVs Would Be a “Robust” Option for Minimizing Fuel Consumption, Cost and GHG Emissions
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/study-conclud-2.html
Woops. Too late for that one. Maybe Volt gen ii?
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:35 pm)Since you’re throwing the Volt in there, I couldn’t let you go on. The report actually says that 40 mile plugins …”could minimize GHG emissions for some drivers and provide potential to shift air pollutant emissions away from population centers.”
Along with that comes NO fuel consumption for 75% of our driving. A higher percentage of no fuel consumption will be seen in other countries.
If you can’t afford a Volt, just say so.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:43 pm)How much is it?
/The issue I’m bringing up here IS cost. If you can’t understand that, just say so.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:48 pm)The report focuses on cost effectiveness.
You’re the one that said small battery PHEV is cleaner. I’m just correcting you.
Take out that factor and PHEV40 and PHEV60 are by far the cleaner vehicles.
Price wise a Volt won’t be much more out of your pocket than many cars in it’s class. The cost of the car can be measured quite well by the article you referenced.
What’s important to you? It’s your lifestyle?
There’s nothing there to denigrate the Volt.
-1
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:56 pm)Yup, they squeeze out as much as they can from the sub-pack when under the speed threshold. Above, it does its best to preserve the charge until you slow down. That seems to be the most efficient use of the electricity available. Those who have driven the plug-in say you are more likely to just follow the flow of traffic as a result of that, taking advantage of the direct-drive efficiency so you’ll have more EV later. And of course, a goal of that model is to deliver a PZEV emission rating. So limiting the use of the engine is a benefit to that.
Jul 20th, 2010 (8:58 pm)….. “take out that factor..”!???
Your ‘really’ can’t understand why cost is so important? — please
(This is not about what Carcus3 can afford).
/the title of my souce and the content in the source said that smaller packs in PHEV’s would be cheaper (i.e. sell in more volume, more robust sales). The result would be more PHEV’s on the road and thus overall less fuel burn as a group.
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:00 pm)I guess you really can’t see why the Volt is so important.
Is there something we are disagreeing about?
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:07 pm)I thought Toyota may have sacrificed some overall mpg in order to satisfy the emissions requirements (AT PZEV). Seems like more blending and not using so much of the pack right off would result in better fuel economy — but maybe more starts and would come out worse on emissions?
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:07 pm)What are some examples of other vehicles in that same class?
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:13 pm)Well, I guess that would be Price.
Just how much do you think the Volt will cost ?
-2
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:20 pm)The prototypes were family-size sedans, not compacts.
The real situation was we had lots of interest in oil consumption back then and conserving it was dropped as a priority.
In fact, that stupid “good for the economy” endorsement for guzzlers along with tax credits for the biggest came shortly after cancelling PNGV… which was still operational when the first of us (including me) were driving hybrids here in the United States.
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:21 pm)Not much more than a plugin Prius.
I really don’t like hubcaps much.
And more than that, I can back my support for the Volt without misrepresenting my source.
-3
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:27 pm)Camry (family sedan)
Highlander (suv with class-II towing)
Estima (awd minivan)
Auris (family compact)
Prius (kick-ass hatchback)
They’ve been busy diversifying their hybrid product-line, along with improving efficiency and lowering cost, while at the same time significantly increasing production.
Early next year comes they first of the lithium-based battery-packs, in a new hybrid with a dedicted body (no traditional counterpart, like Prius).
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:34 pm)Well, that is my point.
The Volt is a well equipped 40 mile plugin.
Are there others?
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:34 pm)I’m guessing that you two have a great deal more in common than disagreement.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:35 pm)What does this sentence represent to you?
“Large-capacity PHEVs—sized for 40 or more miles of electric-only travel—are not cost-effective in any scenario, according to the findings, although they could minimize GHG emissions for some drivers and provide potential to shift air pollutant emissions away from population centers.”
Study Concludes That Smaller Capacity PHEVs Would Be a “Robust” Option for Minimizing Fuel Consumption, Cost and GHG Emissions
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/study-conclud-2.html
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:42 pm)Intersting info. Looks like Adrienne Billiau is a fellow Kettering/GMI alum. I think GM hires/co-ops all the female engineers from Kettering
+2
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:43 pm)This simply means that it’s not all about the money.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 20th, 2010 (9:48 pm)Well, you have the title of the article right.
Not the study.
Even the author of the article qualifies the reduction of gasoline related negative effects by adding that the study…”implies, the researchers said, that the additional weight of a PHEV60 results in a 10% increase in operation-related costs and greenhouse gas emissions per mile relative to a PHEV7 for drivers who charge frequently (every 7 miles or less).”
Is there something I’m missing?
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:04 pm)Cigarettes, maybe?
Here. Let me get them for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5NyyC-UjBM&feature=related
/Carcus3 has left the asylum
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:10 pm)Some fun huh!
Thanks for the bow, c3.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:26 pm)Great news for America. Great news the world over. Eventually all passenger car drivers will be behind the wheel of an electric and the Middle-East oil mavens can stop deriding America in world affairs. Too much American blood shed over there for this ancient fuel.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:27 pm)Maybe this will put pressure on GM to actually build more cars and lower the cost. Hope so.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:28 pm)Yes, well said, +1.
I doubt it. It’s just that American companies are usually better at bold innovations that change the way people do things. Toyota is more of a follower. For example, the Prius was derived from American hybrid prototypes in the mid 90s:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNGV
Having said that, Toyota has done 2 things consistently better than American car companies:
1) Better long-term business decisions
2) Constant improvement
That’s how they become #1 in worldwide sales.
For example, when gas prices were under $1/gallon, most other car makers abandoned their hybrids, but Toyota stuck with it, and it’s paying off now.
But if we look to Toyota to spearhead the electricifcation of the automobile, we’ll be waiting a long time…
+3
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:32 pm)The father of all this is Elon Musk. Hope he makes it, and with his deal with Toyota on the RAV, I think he has. Thank God this American entrepreneur sparked a revolution based on American manufacturing, and American investments.
Jul 20th, 2010 (10:53 pm)Well Michael, thanks for telling specifically where we could find the link. I was hoping someone would just relist it.
That video is worth watching over and over and over ….
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:14 pm)Just to be sure you get it.
Here it is again.
You have to plug in every 7 miles to beat the Volt, as per your own source material.
+1
Jul 20th, 2010 (11:53 pm)Don’t defend me, I’m only a dead President for Pete’s sake. Defend the Volt and yourselves; even if it is only with a vote.
Since your comment (quoted above), john has been back to do a few more Toyota commercials on the Volt fan site, I see. How long can we let this madness continue?
At the very least, I’m not the only half of a tango on this site … not to name names (carcus and crew — hmm; sounds like a furniture store).
Jul 21st, 2010 (12:28 am)I just meant that we agree with you and your opinion of johnboy. It’s just that *apparently* he bothers some of us more than others and given that he rarely gets voted off the island, maybe people: value free speech, value his opinion, or are too lazy to hand out neg votes. In any case, my method of coping with him is : see john1234a, -1 and scroll down. It may not be fair but it’s a lot better in my eyes (and ON my eyes) than to validate him *or* to stoop to his level. Several people tonight were quizzing him for info (?) Which implies that he must be a valued source of information in some eyes.
I just don’t reply to him. 3 years of trying sure hasn’t worked.
Be well,
Tagamet
Jul 21st, 2010 (1:19 am)herm: Toyota was excluded from the gov program, and they were terrified of technologically being left behind once they saw what the Detroit 3 came out with.. thus they developed the Prius using their own funds and actually put the car in production.
Interesting!
Jul 21st, 2010 (2:08 am)Got a call through to “redeye” radio on WABC in NYC at around 2:45 A.M. Had a good chat and got to plug the Volt, the site, and mention Lyle’s name. Also got to explain how the Volt had the CS mode to be the complete package. The announcer thought that the Volt sounded good enough until we develop *the* perpetual motion machine – you wind it up and it will drive our vehicles forever”!!!??? He was serious, BUT optimistic that advances in technology would lead us away from foreign oil. Doug McIntyre was the announcer’s name.
Boy are we going to need a *lot* more education of the media (sigh).
Work in 3 hours, better get some rest.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 21st, 2010 (5:25 am)Off to work. BBL.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!****************NPNS.
Jul 21st, 2010 (5:52 am)At the risk of boring you and repeating myself in regard to plug-ins. Here in my Florida comunnity my wife and i use a golf cart for getting around. We do our shopping, she goes to the hair dresser and for day to day commutting around the Island we use our electric golf cart. We charge the cart oart over night every five days or so. I can not imagine having to charge a vehicle parked on the street or in an urban setting each night. Even on a driveway off street, the temptation for vandals, kids walking by, curious young children and having live 110v or 220v cables laying around becoming attractive nuisances is not something i would want. Oh yes, always a thrill to have to plug in on a rainy night . Plug ins? not for me, give me the freedom of a Volt any day of the week!
Jul 21st, 2010 (6:03 am)There is an internet site where one can type in a zip code and see the location of the lowest price gas station. Won’t be long before we see an Op-Charge site where the top 10 opportunity charge stations are located. Wonder if the religious community will offer an hour charge during service? Coffee and cookies anyone?
=D-Volt
Jul 21st, 2010 (6:22 am)I know, I was just playing “Whack-a-Troll” with John,
He constantly implies that GM is slow/not innovative/etc and praises the holy Toyota as the example of excellence. As you alluded to and as I was teasing John about, Toyota has not been much of an innovator.
As an answer to Johns pointing out that Toyota has figured out how to put the hybrid system into a few other car bodies over the past 10 years, I would reply ….
Wheres the Plug??
Jul 21st, 2010 (6:35 am)Someone posted the link to the program:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNGV
The GM Precept, Ford Prodigy and Chrysler ESX-3.. all diesel-electric hybrids with incredible MPG ratings.
+1
Jul 21st, 2010 (6:36 am)Wow,
10 years and all those profits and they managed to squeeze the system into a few other car bodies and they have figured out that in the future, Lithium can be a better battery. On top of that, they have improved their hybrid mileage up to the point of almost matching the 1984 Honda CRX standard ICE mileage on the highway. These guys are on a roll.
I know Toyota lists 3 hybrids on their website. That was not my point. I want to know why they have not figured out how to put in a bigger battery and install a plug. They have been profitable all along. I know they talk about it. Talk is cheap. Wheres the Plug?
The bottom line is that GM is leading the way on this issue.
Jul 21st, 2010 (6:54 am)The Volt will be safe even in the rain.. but I do like the convenience of wireless power transfer recharging.
-1
Jul 21st, 2010 (8:05 am)That a very strange thing to ask. They already have a bigger battery and plug.
+1
Jul 21st, 2010 (10:00 am)Diesel packs more punch per gallon than gas. Further, diesels are more efficient than gas engines, due principally to their higher compression. You’ll have to re-adjust your fudge factors and less than 40mpg is much more likely.
+1
Jul 21st, 2010 (10:02 am)Thanks for pointing this up; fracking is extremely risky, yet it proceeds full steam ahead. We’re going to regret it.
Fracking also discussed, recently on NPR’s “On Science” and “Science Friday” podcasts, shows well worth listening to.
Jul 21st, 2010 (10:05 am)Toyota wants their plug-in to be both PZEV rated and profitable when rollout begins.
That’s quite different from the priorities GM is following.
+2
Jul 21st, 2010 (10:27 am)Every time I read one of these posts about Toyota’s failing quality, I laugh out loud. I’m driving 10 year old Toyotas and I’m still waiting for something to break on them. When GM offers that kind of experience, I’ll be buying GMs. If GM had been offering that kind of experience all along, nobody would be driving Toyotas.
As for “educating the public,” and I saw your later post about late-nite radio, it wasn’t necessary to educate the public about cars, was it? Since they made sense, the public pretty much figured it out on their own… and the car was a radically different proposition from its predecessor, the horse. No, the public caught on pretty good, because the car made a lot of sense. If the Volt made sense, the public wouldn’t need “education” and a giant tax break.
What the Volt needs is a sensible price.
-1
Jul 21st, 2010 (11:54 am)Since the response was to a question specifically about the first year of Prius sales here, how can there be any confusion?
It was 2000-2001.
+1
Jul 21st, 2010 (2:44 pm)Your answer was just too general, I took it a step further as an influence for a periodic sentiment.
Besides, have a planned auto introduction for a specific market takes a little more development than responding to an annual public trend.
The Prius development has earned a well deserved place in automotive history, the timing of the US intro was convenient to match current sentiment but inevitable. Isolating the Prius to a specific year is reaching.
+1
Jul 21st, 2010 (2:56 pm)Guy – You recognize what the old ICE makers have not. The future is… electric!
Jul 21st, 2010 (4:20 pm)Think about why the question was asked.
+1
Jul 21st, 2010 (4:29 pm)The point is, Toyota has been profitable for years and has drones of followers who think they are great. With all of their profits and car sales, they have not figured out how to put a plug on the car yet. That is not a track record of a leading company.
They have figured out how to sell trucks that average 14 mpg, however.
+1
Jul 21st, 2010 (4:33 pm)Its truly amazing to consider just three years ago when GM first announced the Volt concept, nearly every major automaker criticized them calling the technology too immature. Now every major automaker in the world has committed to mass production of plug-in cars.
Since when is a few tens of thousands of cars “mass production” ?
The elctric car technology is not immature – it’s the critical batteries that remain immature
from a financial and practical standpoint. Carmakers can voice their usual bombastic claims, but until we see a truly practical battery, it’s nothing but hot air. Building an electric car is easy – people do it every week in their back yards. Building a battery is hard, and automakers don’t know nuttin’ about how to design one of them. Automakers are building them for two reasons – 1) they will have the vehicle ready when a good battery comes along, and 2) they are doing it for pure PR purposes.
Jul 21st, 2010 (5:08 pm)Haven’t been paying attention? Toyota hasn’t been profitable. Their first-ever losses happened very recently. So the fact that they have “figured out how to put a plug on the car” and delivered it already makes me wonder what the heck your point really is. You do know that by the end of this year there will be 600 of them on the road for consumer use worldwide? Doesn’t that pretty much level the playing field?
+1
Jul 21st, 2010 (6:49 pm)And what is that historical perspective again? This circle game is ridiculous. Stick to relevant factors, not general sillyness. Why not relate the millenium party favors to Tacoma tow capacity? Didn’t we spend more party money meaning we had more disposable income meaning we could tow more boats? Or is it that the overall trend in truck development is to always increase frame rigidity to allow higher torque motors to allow higher towing capacity?
You were reaching.
Jul 21st, 2010 (9:15 pm)That’s the nature of the blog format. It’s difficult to follow posts. Your assumption about the question being answered was incorrect, something very easy to do since daily topics contain random discussion messages rather than orgainized threads like with a forum.
As for the original question, why not just address that instead?
Jul 21st, 2010 (10:38 pm)I still stand by rushing to market. After all, both companies made very public comments (negative ) about the EREVs, BEVs and plug-ins. Then when it suddenly is clear that GM and Nissan are launching in late 2010, they change their tune. While it might be easy to dump a better battery into an existing vehicle, they are still won’t deliver until 2012. Developing anything close to the VOLT or LEAF is at least 4 years out.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (3:20 am)The comments from Toyota were that the battery technology was unprofitable and that electricity came from dirty sources. That’s still true… though changing.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (8:34 am)It’s not “rushing to market.” Toyota has been in the business of building, profitably, vehicles with combined electric and gas drive for ten years. This is an evolutionary step that Toyota could take whenever they deemed the time right. Apparently, they like the economics enough at this point to do it.
Further, have you looked at gas prices, lately? A company that’s interested in MAKING MONEY is not going to drop a two billion on a car that won’t sell. Inflation adjusted, gas prices haven’t moved for 30 years.
http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html
And have you looked at the economy? Incomes are stagnant. Expensive vehicles are going to run into a lot of headwinds. Far smarter to build the most affordable car you can. The pricing on the Cruze may also be troubleseome for GM, given the economy.
Jul 22nd, 2010 (11:34 am)How come Chrysler isn’t up there? Is it because no one knows what’s going on with them?
Jul 22nd, 2010 (1:35 pm)Maybe It’s a plug-in Insight?