Jul 19

Chevrolet Volt Battery Warranty Details and Clarifications

 


[ad#post_ad]After all this time its pretty amazing to hear GM’s final decision on the Chevrolet Volt’s battery warranty.  Eight years or 100,000 miles.

We have known for a long time that GM was aiming towards ten years/100,000 miles as a goalpost, though using that figure specifically as a warranty was never confirmed.

This warranty is being described as the longest-lasting GM offers on any of its products, illustrating the very high level of confidence the company has in its extensively engineered and managed lithium-ion battery pack.  It exceeds by three years the warranty GM offers on its powertrains.

The warranty coverage includes all 161 components of the Volt’s battery, its charging system, thermal-management system and components of its electric drive, and it is transferable to other vehicle owners. GM confirmed that the 400 pound pack houses 288 cells in nine modules.

Volt vehicle line executive Doug Parks GM provided some additional details about the warranty.

First the warranty is good at delivery, no minimum number of miles are required, and the mileage is calculated in terms of vehicle miles, not generator miles.

It was long thought GM must achieve a ten year warranty specifically for California and the other CARB states. This turns out not to be the case.

The “warranty announcement covers all states, including California,” said Parks.  ”California does not mandate 10 years/150,000 miles for all vehicles.”

The reason, as it turns out, is that GM did not submit the Volt as an advanced technology partial zero emission vehicle to CARB (California Air Resources Board). Therefore, GM is not required to meet those warranty criteria. It also means California Volt buyers will not get the $5000 tax credit. GM expects to achieve AT-PZEV designation in the 2013 model.

“The Volt’s battery warranty announced this week is based on the remarkable results of our engineering and development testing,” GM spokesperson Shad Balch told GM-Volt. “When we complete the additional engineering and submit the vehicle to CARB for AT-PZEV certification it will include the required 10/150K battery warranty.”

“We expect to do this with the 2013 MY, which will be available mid-2012,” he added. “AT PZEV for 2011 MY would have required additional costs and delayed the launch. We could have pushed back the launch – but customers want a practical EV now.”

“California’s rebate program has funds to cover fewer than 700 customers, total, for vehicles from all manufacturers – and future funding is uncertain,” he added. “Rather than sticking it to thousands of our customers with a delay, we chose to remain on track and launch the Volt this year.”

GM is continuing to look at battery performance beyond the ten years as well. “The batteries are being validated beyond the warranty period,” said Parks. “We continue to test to see how far they will live.”

Parks also noted that the battery is warrantied for both level 1 (120-v) and level 2 (240-v) charging, and that the use of either has no effect on performance or longevity. He said that if a pack wound up needing repair some work could be done at local dealerships. “However all refurbishment/cell replacement will be done at a central specialized repair center,” he added.

Parks noted the warranty will cover “all customer charge cycles,” even if owners charge the car multiple times per day.

Overall GM noted that its battery warranty was significantly longer that what Tesla offers on its Roadster which is “3-year, 36,000-mile standard,” according to Tesla spokesperson Rachel Konrad. “You can buy a two-year extension,” she added. Tesla also offers owners the option of paying a non-refundable $12,000 to get a free battery replacement at seven years..

And for what seems like the first time, GM beat Nissan to announcing something about its electric car.

According to Nissan North American Director of EVs, Mark Perry, Nissan has “no comments yet,” on the air-cooled LEAF battery warranty. “We will release a bit closer to launch,” he added. Nissan has surveyed its $99 reserve holders about their battery warranty expectations, and may be aiming for 5 years/60,000 miles. The LEAF, as a zero-emission vehicle (ZEV) will be eligible for the $5000 California credit for those who can get it.

“No battery warranty requirement/regulations from CARB for ZEV,” says Perry. “Nothing for the air resources board to regulate.”

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This entry was posted on Monday, July 19th, 2010 at 6:31 am and is filed under Battery, Warranty. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 212


  1. 1
    Rashiid Amul

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:37 am)

    I’m okay with the battery warranty.
    It’s the rest of the car that I am disappointed in. (Warranty that is.)
    If cheapo Hyundai can offer 5yr/60,000 mile bumper to bumper, why can’t GM do so?
    GM has to win customers back. This would have been a good way to do so.


  2. 2
    Gsned57

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:46 am)

    Didn’t realize California currently only had funding for 700 PZEV vehicles but with the state of their budget I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised. It would have been a far worse headline to delay launch only because of $3.5 mil that Cali is giving customers.

    On another note, I wonder what constitutes needing repair in the warranty. If at mile 99,000 the battery pack is down to %80 of where it was when the car was new is that considered normal wear and tear? Or is GM saying if you drove the same 50 mile route for 100,000 miles the range extender would kick on at the same point all the time? obviously temp and peripheries would change things a bit but you get the idea. Either way it’s nice to know if my battery has major issues I won’t be spending 12-15K to replace it within the first 100,000 miles.


  3. 3
    Roy H

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:49 am)

    Good point, all the expensive components, ICE, drivetrain, battery, controller are covered at 100k miles, so what would the additional risk/cost be to extend that to bumper to bumper?


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    Roy H

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:53 am)

    Rashiid Amul: I’m okay with the battery warranty.
    It’s the rest of the car that I am disappointed in. (Warranty that is.)
    If cheapo Hyundai can offer 5yr/60,000 mile bumper to bumper, why can’t GM do so?
    GM has to win customers back.This would have been a good way to do so.  

    Didn’t pick up on that only 60k at first. GM bumper to bumper is already at 60k miles. Adding 2 years with no additional miles should cost almost nothing.


  5. 5
    nuclearboy

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:55 am)

    I like the confirmation that the 2013 model will be released in mid 2012. The newer/better Volt design must be coming along nicely.

    I spoke to the guys in the Volt on the phone during the freedom drive and asked questions about the new car. One thing they made clear is that GM will not be as open with information about the 2013 model as they have been with the 2011 Volt.

    Lyle, you will have to work extra hard to bring us news of the Volt Version 2.0.

    It would also seem that the CARB rebate loss is overblown. They have 700 slots for all car makers. No big deal. That is not a loss that will inhibit mass adoption of low emission vehicles.

    Finally, it looks like GM will have an edge on the battery warranty. This could make the actual cost of ownership for the Leaf go up and reduces the cost difference between the cars.

    Good Job GM.


  6. 6
    nasaman

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:59 am)

    Rashiid Amul, post #1: I’m okay with the battery warranty. It’s the rest of the car that I am disappointed in. (Warranty that is.)
    If cheapo Hyundai can offer 5yr/60,000 mile bumper to bumper, why can’t GM do so? GM has to win customers back. This would have been a good way to do so.   

    I agree, Rashiid. Even though I’ve read that Hyundai has not always honored their drivetrain warranty (10ys/100,000mi) it’s always bothered me that GM’s drivetrains are warranted for only 5yrs/100,000 mi —yet GM advertises, “The best coverage in America is on GM vehicles.” C’mon, GM be the REAL leader here —and avoid even an appearance of false advertising!

    /And BTW, GM, don’t let foreign makes be the only ones attracting owners back to their dealers by providing free routine maintenance services and free car washes!


  7. 7
    BillR

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:01 am)

    Only 700 customers to get the rebate in CA? Why bother. You can only hope that you make it under the wire.

    I am impressed by this battery pack. Great picture, Lyle.

    We are looking at a battery pack that is tested to be impervious to dust, water, and vibration. It is warranted for 8 years/100,000 miles with a transferable warranty (good for resale). The battery is liquid cooled and heated to provide service in all weather conditions and includes monitoring down to the indivdual cell level.

    We may find someone willing to offer a better warranty, but you will be hard pressed to find a better battery.


  8. 8
    Jim I

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:01 am)

    What does this do for resale value? If I have a nine year old Volt with 90K miles on it, I wonder how much of a hit it will take at trade in time…..

    And I agree with Rashiid: An 8yr/100K bumper to bumper warranty would have really shown that GM has faith in this new vehicle. After all, there are thousands of parts that are not drive train related…..

    OT:

    Check out this link:

    http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-110094-5987-3-hot-cars-you-cant-have?ywaad=ad0035

    I wonder if we are the 50,000 hand raisers they are talking about???


  9. 9
    JohnK

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:07 am)

    Excelent article Lyle. Amazing what a few microscopic details adds to the overall picture. Once again the Volt and its engineering seems to tell its own story. It DID seem like some folks here felt let down by GM the other day. I hope they feel much better now.
    But it does seem like the marketing strategy for the Volt is a tad on the tentative side. I know nothing about marketing :) (I consider that a good thing).


  10. 10
    mikeinatl.

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:16 am)

    Who could possibly guess what batteries will be able to do in 8 years?
    It will be a totally different electric car environment by then.
    It can only get better, cheaper, lighter, etc, etc.

    (And of course E-Stor will be in cars by then and change everything, right?
    With little propellers on the hood ornaments to flash-charge the batteries as we drive.)

    GO VOLT!


  11. 11
    James

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:17 am)

    This can become a speedbump for early adopters since there is the newness of the technology and the fear of the unknown.

    I had no problem with my Prius’ 3yr/36,000 mile warranty because in my research I had read several stories of Prius taxis with 1,000,000 miles on the NIMH pack. Plus an overall confidence in Toyota quality. Now, after the big ’10 Toyota mess – and my infamous HID Prius headlights which owners say I can expect to go out about 300 miles past my warranty, I am feeling a bit less confident ( Prius headlights cost $600 – $1200 APIECE to replace! ).

    Car-wise, I’ve always hated that last ditch, “we won’t hand you the keys to your new car until our extended warranty closer guy stretches you on the rack” approach we Americans endure each time we buy a new vehicle. It’s really the only time I get nasty with dealers, with my “just hand me the papers to sign or I’m walkin’ in 10 seconds!” approach. GM could really do well for Volt to up the bumper-to-bumper to match Hyundai’s. After all, modern cars are very complex machines, and Volt multiplies that times two, at least.

    RECHARGE!

    James


  12. 12
    kdawg

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:18 am)

    Does it cover the off-board charger too?


  13. 13
    Raul

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:19 am)

    again honesty is the the best policy, but just for clarification:

    GM nom is Bumper to Bumper 3 years 36,000, drivetrain 100,000.

    what is the new warranty for the VOLT???

    And yes the bumper to bumber coverage of 100,000, would definitly win people back and show the committment GM has on it’s 2011 VOLT. Remeber you are already announcing big changes on the 2013 VOLT, and you need thie 2011 VOLT out there with JOE NEXT DOOR behind the wheel for real world results of normal use and abuse of daily life!!!

    Affordable, reliable, USA., of course some normal wear items like tires not included in the bumber to bumber, just clarify what is and what isn’t included.

    GOTTA LOVE THAT NEW VOLT FROM GM!!!

    i Believe GM got it, I back GM’s decisions and am commenting for the good of America,
    built in USA.


  14. 14
    kdawg

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:22 am)

    nasaman: And BTW, GM, don’t let foreign makes be the only ones attracting owners back to their dealers by providing free routine maintenance services and free car washes!

    My local Buick/Cadillac dealer has offered this to owners.


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    Schmeltz

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:22 am)

    “California’s rebate program has funds to cover fewer than 700 customers, total, for vehicles from all manufacturers – and future funding is uncertain,” he added. “Rather than sticking it to thousands of our customers with a delay, we chose to remain on track and launch the Volt this year.”

    Fewer than 700 customers will be covered with the Calif. rebate— That is hilarious. I wondered where they were going to get the money for this program when in the same breath they are discussing paying gov’t workers minimum wage. It just didn’t make sense before, now it does.

    As for GM’s warranty on the Volt, I agree with others here that it would look better to have a longer warranty on the overall machine. The battery warranty sounds good but make the overall warranty longer. GM will be watching these cars like hawks already, so they may as well put it in writing.


  16. 16
    Tagamet

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:22 am)

    Jim I: What does this do for resale value? If I have a nine year old Volt with 90K miles on it, I wonder how much of a hit it will take at trade in time…..

    When trading in a 9 yr old Volt you will be looking at competing with at least Gen 2 and possibly Gen 3 on the road. At that point, doesn’t that make the battery warranty a little less of an issue? I’m just thinking that after holding the Volt for almost a decade, I’d just run the wheels off of it (as I do with my vehicles now) JMO. I’m just very glad that they didn’t hold up the release of the Volt altogether because of 700 available rebates in CA.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  17. 17
    Eco_Turbo

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:23 am)

    From article:

    “We could have pushed back the launch – but customers want a practical EV now.”

    Sounds like my wife, it’s all your (our) fault.


  18. 18
    JohnK

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:23 am)

    Jim I: Check out this link:
    http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-110094-5987-3-hot-cars-you-cant-have?ywaad=ad0035

    Gee, seems like the Volt travels in pretty exotic company.


  19. 19
    Carcus

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:25 am)

    And the most likely reason production of gen 1 has been limited to 40,000 units? — expect a major re-design in 2013.

    Stay tuned!


  20. 20
    JohnK

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:30 am)

    nasaman:
    /And BTW, GM, don’t let foreign makes be the only ones attracting owners back to their dealers by providing free routine maintenance services and free car washes!

    There is a local add running for Ford (Lincoln) that talks about covered routine maintenance, that ends with “..the only cost is adding gas.” Sounds like a great way to start a Volt commercial.


  21. 21
    Tagamet

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:32 am)

    Jim I: OT:

    Check out this link:

    http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-110094-5987-3-hot-cars-you-cant-have?ywaad=ad0035

    Thanks for the link. It”s interesting that the majority of the cars were electrics! *HOW* can mfg’s think that demand will be an issue?????

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  22. 22
    Nelson

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:34 am)

    “California’s rebate program has funds to cover fewer than 700 customers, total, for vehicles from all manufacturers – and future funding is uncertain,” he added. “Rather than sticking it to thousands of our customers with a delay, we chose to remain on track and launch the Volt this year.”

    Good reason, smart choice.

    114 Days and counting!

    NPNS!


  23. 23
    Tim Hart

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:42 am)

    Boy! If the Gen II Volt will be available less than a year later than getting your hands on one in the non-intro areas, it may very well be worth the wait. Lyle, try to pry all the info you can get from GM on the Gen II Volt.


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    RDOCA

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:50 am)

    kdawg: Does it cover the off-board charger too?  (Quote)

    Are you sure there is an off board charger?
    I was under the impression that the charger is onboard and it sensed the input either 120v or 240v and charged at that rate. I think the unit you see in the pics is only a wall mount as the code says it has to be hard wired and not a pulg in with 240v.


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    BobS

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:51 am)

    The battery photo reminds me of the inside of a piano.


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    Michael

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:54 am)

    JohnK:
    There is a local add running for Ford (Lincoln) that talks about covered routine maintenance, that ends with “..the only cost is adding gas.”Sounds like a great way to start a Volt commercial.  

    Except for that “adding gas line.” Need to work out a line that says, “and most people, on most days, won’t even do that.” :-)


  27. 27
    BobS

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:10 am)

    BobS: The battery photo reminds me of the inside of a piano.  

    Make that en electric piano.


  28. 28
    Van

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:16 am)

    Thanks Lyle for the very informative article. I had no idea the funding for the California rebate was a joke. The Leaf will deplete the funding with its first 700 or so cars, therefore even when the Volt qualifies with the 2013 MY, no California rebate funding will remain.


  29. 29
    RB

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:19 am)

    And for what seems like the first time, GM beat Nissan to announcing something about its electric car.

    Yes, GM wins on announcements, but Leaf owners will beaten Volt owners to the rebates. :)


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    Schmeltz

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:28 am)

    RB: Yes, GM wins on announcements, but Leaf owners will beaten Volt owners to the rebates.

    Lets not forget the Leaf customers will need to compete with Tesla and the myriad of other car companies that so many here say are “just around the corner” and “about to eat GM’s lunch”. So if you are lucky enough to be at the front of the front, you will still need to split a part of your small pie with others. Lots of luck with that. I’m not saying that to be mean either, I’m just trying to present it realistically.


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    ejj

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:30 am)

    I don’t think I’ve seen anywhere discussion of an external receptacle (power plug). The Volt could be used as a power source during power outages, or for people that love to go to primitive campgrounds.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:01 am)

    ejj: I don’t think I’ve seen anywhere discussion of an external receptacle (power plug).The Volt could be used as a power source during power outages, or for people that love to go to primitive campgrounds.  

    I believe that they have said that this will not be available in Gen I, but *may* be in Gen II (V2G). It’s been quite a while since I’ve seen it discussed here.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Rashiid Amul

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:10 am)

    Tagamet:
    I believe that they have said that this will not be available in Gen I, but *may* be in Gen II (V2G). It’s been quite a while since I’ve seen it discussed here.
    Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    Ya, it’s a dead issue for this version of the Volt.


  34. 34
    Loboc

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:20 am)

    As of December 2010, there are only two other cars out there that would qualify for the CA money: Tesla and LEAF.

    If the rumor is true, Volt could be a zero-emission (fully electric) for the 2012 model year. I think that GM needs to do this to compete with Ford and Toyota as well as Nissan in that small piece of the market. It’s more a halo technology thing (showing they can actually do it) than getting massive amounts of electric cars out there right now. But it’s a start.


  35. 35
    Dagwood55

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:24 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    DonC

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:34 am)

    Gsned57: Didn’t realize California currently only had funding for 700 PZEV vehicles but with the state of their budget I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised.

    This is really a CARB not a state activity. The rebate is set by CARB and is funded from a set of specific pollution control fees that don’t generate many dollars. It’s given on a first come first served basis, and large trucks are eligible for up to a $20,000 rebate.

    As for the state of the budget, CA doesn’t have a budget. Political gridlock continues.


  37. 37
    Matthew B

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:35 am)

    Parks noted the warranty will cover “all customer charge cycles,” even if owners charge the car multiple times per day.”

    Cool. If I get a Volt, that is the way I’ll be using it.

    I would figure from an engineering prospective the battery life would be figured more on number of all electric miles.


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    stuart22

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:38 am)

    I was hoping the ‘details’ today’s blog promised would answer a question I have, but it didn’t.

    Can anybody tell me just what condition GM is guaranteeing the Volt battery to be in after 8 years or 100k miles, whichever occurs first? Will the battery take a 100% charge at that point? 50%?


  39. 39
    Steve

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:48 am)

    Looks to me once again that GM isn’t so stupid as some believe.


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    Sam Y

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:50 am)

    Rashiid Amul: If cheapo Hyundai can offer 5yr/60,000 mile bumper to bumper, why can’t GM do so?GM has to win customers back.  (Quote)

    Rashiid Amul, please keep your comments professional. Though I’m a partial lurker/partial poster who posts only when I think I have something to contribute (so that I don’t re-post), I’m surprised at your tone. I have found your comments to be frank and good to read so far. Cheap shots doesn’t become you & GM will not do better unless there are competitions.

    FYI, while I agree ’80s & even ’90s Hyundai’s stuff were bad to mediocre at best, they have been churning out respectable vehicles during the last 5-6 years or so.

    Still, I wish the GM the very best; my dream car right now is GM Volt, grey metallic =)


  41. 41
    David K (CT)

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:53 am)

    stuart22: I was hoping the ‘details’ today’s blog promised would answer a question I have, but it didn’t.Can anybody tell me just what condition GM is guaranteeing the Volt battery to be in after 8 years or 100k miles, whichever occurs first? Will the battery take a 100% charge at that point? 50%?  (Quote)

    I’m pretty sure that only GM can further clarify your question…and it certainly is a good question.


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    BLIND GUY

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:57 am)

    With california’s State budget problems, they should keep the 3,500,000.00 and forget about rebates for electric vehicles. The Federal rebate is enough incentive and california will buy these electric vehicles reguardless. I think Ford, Nissan and others should match GM’s battery warranty or risk loosing alot of sales. Hyundai, “I hope I spelled that correctly” is proving how a great warranty can raise your sales and bottom line as long as they strive for quality products. IMO Nissan will be leasing the vast majority of their Leafs unless they at least match GM’s power train warranty.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:14 am)

    nuclearboy: I spoke to the guys in the Volt on the phone during the freedom drive and asked questions about the new car. One thing they made clear is that GM will not be as open with information about the 2013 model as they have been with the 2011 Volt.

    Lyle, you will have to work extra hard to bring us news of the Volt Version 2.0.

    Most of what we “know” about the Gen III Volt already, based on GM statements here, center around it’s batteries:

    * smaller lighter batteries will cost less, but still deliver 40 miles AER

    * smaller pack will allow 3-across seating in the back, lower overall weight of the car

    * greater number of cycles over batteries’ expected lifetime mean that engine needn’t be large enough to meet maximum load during CS mode; the designers depending on the pack to “average things out” instead: Could lead to smaller engines such as 2-cylinder and Wankel designs, and dramatically better CS mode mpg.

    * batteries are “solid state” (whatever that means), should result in longer life, may not need active temperature management like Gen I

    Ya’ll chime in with other things we’ve heard — between us, I think we can build a pretty detailed picture.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:23 am)

    Sam Y:
    Rashiid Amul, please keep your comments professional. Though I’m a partial lurker/partial poster who posts only when I think I have something to contribute (so that I don’t re-post), I’m surprised at your tone. I have found your comments to be frank and good to read so far. Cheap shots doesn’t become you & GM will not do better unless there are competitions.
    FYI, while I agree ’80s & even ’90s Hyundai’s stuff were bad to mediocre at best, they have been churning out respectable vehicles during the last 5-6 years or so.
    Still, I wish the GM the very best; my dream car right now is GM Volt, grey metallic =)  

    Most people here know that I own two Hyundai Elantras. One has 218,000 miles on it and I predict will easily surpass 300,000 miles. My “cheapo” remark was meant to convey that their cars are inexpensive, yet completely reliable. which is why they can have a 5yr/60,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. What is GM saying by providing the same lousy bumper to bumper warranty they have always provided? If the new GM wants to come out strong, their warranty should back them up. It does not.

    Americans buy foreign cars because they are built better than American cars (perception).
    If GM wants to prove them wrong, they need to get buyers into the showrooms first.
    Having a better warranty than anyone else would go a long way towards that.

    Sorry if I offended you.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:27 am)

    I wasn’t aware Hyundai had an EREV that was in competition with the Volt. Therefore, I don’t see why Chevy would need to match the Hyundai warranty. It’s an apples to oranges comparison. GM should match or beat the warranties of their competition. The Leaf is the closest thing right now.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:38 am)

    I will be surprised if the Generation 1 Volt production reaches 40,000 units. I think the Volt will go on sale in limited areas in December 2010 and about 4000 will be sold through June 2011. The 2012 MY upgrade will go on sale in July 2011 and about 4 to 6 thousand will be sold by the end of the year. Production will ramp up to about 2500 per month starting in January 2012 and so through June, about 25,000 Generation 1 units will be sold. Starting in July 2012, the upgraded Generation ll 2013 MY will hit the showrooms and the rate will remain around 2500 per month unless demand requires a ramp up to a maximum of about 5000 per month.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:57 am)

    nasaman:
    And BTW, GM, don’t let foreign makes be the only ones attracting owners back to their dealers by providing free routine maintenance services and free car washes!  

    Just got my free oil change/tire rotation (with car wash) from my Pontiac dealer (whoops, Buick / GMC dealer) for my ’07 Vibe on Saturday… I think they should advertise that fact instead of making it a stealth perk, but it’s still there…

    Mike.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:57 am)

    Folks expect all kind of stuff from GM …Hyndai gave that kind of warranty cuz it was in last place & nobody wanted to buy Hyndai 10 yrs ago …You have to give it to them they have come a long way …GM need to sell VOLT as premium product and environment enthusiastic buyers not the joe dum dumbs [plenty in US] They should have taken the list from this forum & given some volts to 10-15 folks on a lottery or something ..for all the support provided ..
    GM should focus on quality & profitability… Extended warranties are troublesome especially if owners abuse their cars & then make excuses to get free repairs etc After all this is a buisness not a feel good company ..
    I hope small BEV show up in the mktplace next year ideal for commute and with 100-150 miles range but public charging wud be a big plus but at this moment looks highly unlikely as cities counties states grapple with huge red ink …seems like property taxes hikes are just around the corner ..


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:59 am)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson) #43: Ya’ll chime in with other things we’ve heard [about Gen III, on this site] — between us, I think we can build a pretty detailed picture.

    Here’s another:

    * A 20-mile AER version may be offered at a lower price. With greater CS mode efficiency (see previous comment), this could be very compelling to anyone who owns a conventional hybrid.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:08 am)

    RDOCA: Are you sure there is an off board charger?
    I was under the impression that the charger is onboard and it sensed the input either 120v or 240v and charged at that rate. I think the unit you see in the pics is only a wall mount as the code says it has to be hard wired and not a pulg in with 240v.

    There is a portable 120V charge cord, and a wall mounted 240V charger unit. I want to know if both of these are covered by the 8year warranty.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:10 am)

    I’m not worried about battery warranty. If I manage to get a VOLT next year when my son turns 10 years old, if all goes well in 8 years, when he turns 18 all I have to do is buy a replacement battery (by then there should be 150 to 200 AER… I hope) which will hopefully have its own warranty and let him drive that off to college. ‘Nuff said.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:18 am)

    Whether it’s LEAF, Volt, or something else; I doubt getting a new-technology replacement battery for an older EV will be straight-forward: at least, not through the dealer. The reason has less to do with changing technologies over eight years, and everything to do with the fact that any car manufacturer would far rather sell you a whole new car than just sell a battery.

    That’s not to say that it won’t be possible; I’m sure there will be plenty of aftermarket or 3rd party solutions for this (remember, all manufacturer warranties will have expired by the time this is necessary).

    Of course, of the two biggest players at the moment, only one has tried to ‘sell’ the idea of a battery upgrade (Nissan). I’ll be amazed if it actually happens (through Nissan).


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:19 am)

    Some of you seem to have limited your scope of GM to strictly the Volt.
    I have not. GM has suffered for years and years with the perception that they make complete junk. I doesn’t matter if that perception is based on fact or not. Perception becomes reality.
    With that perception, they have lost millions of dollars in sales, and lost their number 1 position.

    The Volt is the flagship car for the new GM. The new GM must prove that it is better than the old GM. It has to prove that it is not the same company that made complete
    junk (again, perception). How to do that? The same way Hyundai brought new customers into their showrooms (and Hyundai really did make complete junk at one time). With a warranty that made people feel comfortable, and by making cars there were/are very reliable.

    I use Hyundai as a comparison because they have a very good warranty.
    What is GM afraid of by doing the same thing? Sure they may not be in last place for sales, but they are not in first place either.

    If it wasn’t for the Volt, I wouldn’t be on this site, nor would I even consider for a fraction of a second to buy another GM product.
    I promised myself that my 1986 Pontiac Sunbird was the last GM car I would ever own as it was complete junk.

    Well, the Volt is coming and I am going to break my promise. And I am not at all gun shy about buying it. But ask me about another GM vehicle and I will say “no way”. Not happening.
    Why? Lack of confidence in the final product. This is why GM needs to change their warranty across the board. If they made superior products, then there shouldn’t be any issue with it.
    What are they telling everyone with the minimum warranty they are giving people?
    “We are a new company. We are now making very good products. No, we will not extend our warranty beyond 3yr/36,000 mile bumper to bumper. You will just have to trust us.”

    Ya right, good luck with that.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:31 am)

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:27 am)

    I wasn’t aware Hyundai had an EREV that was in competition with the Volt. Therefore, I don’t see why Chevy would need to match the Hyundai warranty. It’s
    an apples to oranges comparison. GM should match or beat the warranties of their competition. The Leaf is the closest thing right now.  
    (Quote)

    Hey Jeremy, not sure who’s post you are refering too. In my post #42, I was using Hyundai as an example of how a **great warranty** can increase your sales and bottom line as long as the quality is very good. I realize Hyundai does not have an erev “serial hybrid” yet, however IMO I consider Leaf and Volt as apples and orangesand Volt and plug-in Prius as more apples to apples, since they both have an ice, All electric battery ability and both will have plugs. So far GM seems to be the warranty leader with erevs. People wanting to **purchase** their next vehicle with some electric drive ability may consider the Volt over the Leaf Possibly just for a better warranty even though they might want to buy a bev. IMO if someone is considering leasing, then the Leaf might be a great option, BTW I did not minus your comment.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:35 am)

    By 2012 we may have a 100 mpg hybrid in the form of a Fiat 500 — no plug.

    Well, probably not really 100 mpg, but 70+mpg is entirely possible. For those who might think in the 30′s CS mpg for the volt is acceptable, is it acceptable if you’re burning almost as much fuel in your volt on an annual basis as you would be in a hybrid that probably costs 1/2 as much AND won’t require an expensive/worrisome battery warranty?

    GM needs to get gen ii sorted out ASAP. tick tock

    Fiat’s hybrid 500 charges up!
    Electric boost set to give city car 100mpg with motor added to new TwinAir model.
    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/254401/fiats_hybrid_500_charges_up.html


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:47 am)

    Rashiid Amul: I use Hyundai as a comparison because they have a very good warranty.
    What is GM afraid of by doing the same thing? Sure they may not be in last place for sales, but they are not in first place either.

    I’m thinking they are in first, which is something of the problem. When you have the largest market share there is a tendency to stay complacent even if you’ve just come through a bankruptcy and a government bailout.

    Not disagreeing with your point that GM has had reliability issues, but I’m not sure a better warranty will do much for GM on this count. I think GM already has better warranties than the competition — Ford, Nissan, etc. http://www.carsmart.com/content/research/warranty/index.cfm The only competitive companies which have better warranties are the Korean imports, and they probably need this since they’re small and relatively new to market.

    PS: The comment at #40 about your “unprofessional” post was off the wall and made me think of the maxim PDNFT.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:50 am)

    carcus3: For those who might think in the 30’s CS mpg for the volt is acceptable, is it acceptable if you’re burning almost as much fuel in your volt on an annual basis as you would be in a hybrid that probably costs 1/2 as much AND won’t require an expensive/worrisome battery warranty?

    You’re assuming the primary reason someone wants a Volt is to save money and avoid using gas. If you wanted to do that why not just buy a CNG Civic?

    The Fiat 500 would make a great EV though!


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:00 pm)

    DonC: You’re assuming the primary reason someone wants a Volt is to save money and avoid using gas. If you wanted to do that why not just buy a CNG Civic?

    My personal goal is to reduce my use of gasoline down to 1/3 of what I have traditionally used. — so about 350 g/yr is my goal.

    Whichever way gets me there is fine with me, but I’d prefer to not give up give up lifestyle or break the piggy bank.

    Switching out my current car for a reasonably priced EV or a reasonably priced 70+ mpg hybrid/plug in hybrid would allow me to achieve my goal.

    From the “piggy bank” angle, if the 70+ mpg hybrid didn’t have a big battery, well . . . . the piggy’s probably going to be happier.

    —- add, at some point, maybe decades down the road, I think we’ll have to switch over to renewables. If our gas/diesel/electricity use is low enough I think we can make the switch to bio fuels/solar/wind. Efficiency here is really the key. CNG use is fine — for a while — but the movement needs to be towards high efficiency and renewables.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:01 pm)

    DonC: PS: The comment at #40 about your “unprofessional” post was off the wall and made me think of the maxim PDNFT.

    I know, DonC.
    I thought of this before I answered. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:02 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: Some of you seem to have limited your scope of GM to strictly the Volt. I have not. GM has suffered for years and years with the perception that they make complete junk. I doesn’t matter if that perception is based on fact or not. Perception becomes reality.
    With that perception, they have lost millions of dollars in sales, and lost their number 1 position. The Volt is the flagship car for the new GM.The new GM must prove that it is better than the old GM.It has to prove that it is not the same company that made complete junk (again, perception). How to do that? The same way Hyundai brought new customers into their showrooms (and Hyundai really did make complete junk at one time). With a warranty that made people feel comfortable, and by making cars there were/are very reliable. I use Hyundai as a comparison because they have a very good warranty.
    What is GM afraid of by doing the same thing? Sure they may not be in last place for sales, but they are not in first place either.If it wasn’t for the Volt, I wouldn’t be on this site, nor would I even consider for a fraction of a second to buy another GM product.
    I promised myself that my 1986 Pontiac Sunbird was the last GM car I would ever own as it was complete junk. Well, the Volt is coming and I am going to break my promise. And I am not at all gun shy about buying it.But ask me about another GM vehicle and I will say “no way”. Not happening.
    Why? Lack of confidence in the final product. This is why GM needs to change their warranty across the board. If they made superior products, then there shouldn’t be any issue with it.
    What are they telling everyone with the minimum warranty they are giving people?
    “We are a new company. We are now making very good products. No, we will not extend our warranty beyond 3yr/36,000 mile bumper to bumper. You will just have to trust us. ”Ya right, good luck with that.  

    ATTN GM SENIOR MGMT: Every word of what Rashiid says here is CORRECT and I fully concur!!! You should print several copies of this & give copies to Ed Whitacre & his entire staff as well as to each member of the GM Board of Directors for appropriate action!!!

    PS: Rashiid is a highly-educated IT manager who now owns TWO Hyundais — probably because of their warranties!


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:13 pm)

    carcus3: My personal goal….

    –add:

    I just passed the 1 year mark living in my “green design” home where I was the builder. My annual electricity use worked out to $55/mo on a pretty decent sized 3/3/2, 10′ ceilings, etc…, home in a hot environment.

    All that using fairly conventional building methods (green architecture, metal roof, foam insulation, 6″ walls, high seer, etc…)

    More and more I think we really lack the will more than the way to a high efficiency/renewable/viable future.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:21 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Nelson

    If they did that and achieved 60 MPG or better in CS mode, it would make every other car obsolete.

    NPNS!


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:27 pm)

    DonC: The only competitive companies which have better warranties are the Korean imports, and they probably need this since they’re small and relatively new to market.

    DonC,

    it is not the competition that I am concerned with. It’s the American car buying public.
    They are the ones that need to come into the showrooms. They are the ones that need to feel confident in buying American again. GM is a new company. They have a chance to throw that old baggage away and do it right this time. They need a way to convince the American public to come in and take a look, to take a test drive, and of course to buy. What a great way to do that by backing ones own product with a fantastic warranty?


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:32 pm)

    Another add (a rant, really) on the “green” house building thing.

    When someone asks me (or sometimes even when they don’t) , I’ll tell them about it. Even though I should just be happy about my accomplishment, … sometimes my mood will switch over and I’ll start dropping the eff bomb because it pizzes me off — this was my 1ST EFFIN TIME as a builder — and my home uses 1/3 of the energy of a conventional home, and I’ll easily recover my “green” expenditures in just a few years. So I wonder what the eff have we been doing ??? Why do all of the “standard” choices/building techniques use so much energy???

    What do I have to do next? Go in the garage and build my own car???


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:35 pm)

    Does having a 100K mile 8 year warranty instead of a 150K mile 10 year warranty lower the price of the Volt for consumers? Or should folks wait until mid 2012 to buy a generation-2 Volt?

    The idea of new GM updating the warranty on their flagship technology Volt to equal or exceed those of the Asian manufacturers would be welcome if its possible.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:38 pm)

    carcus3: My personal goal is to reduce my use of gasoline down to 1/3 of what I have traditionally used. — so about 350 g/yr is my goal.

    carcus3: More and more I think we really lack the will more than the way to a high efficiency/renewable/viable future. 

    Your new house sounds great. I’ve wanted to build a green house but it just hasn’t worked out that way. (Straw or insulated block was what I was thinking). So I had to settle for good doors and windows and a mild climate! If you get a chance it would be great to see some pics of your house if you have them.

    Too bad you can’t get a CNG car while you wait for your Volt or Leaf. I have a couple of friends who have them. The cars are equivalent to the gas versions, but they do greatly prefer filling at home. One tried to use a public station once, found a line, and that was that. The other has never even tried. (Their reaction is partly why I think EV public chargers aren’t going to be used that much). I wish GM would come out with something like a CNG Malibu — a family car larger than the Civic would be very attractive, especially in CA where they qualify for the white stickers. But I think it would also prove popular for certain people living in states which haven’t so enthusiastically embraced hybrids. No doubt they’re worried that people would feel range limited, but a CNG vehicle has a range of several hundred miles so it’s not a big deal unless you drive very long distances.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (12:46 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: it is not the competition that I am concerned with. It’s the American car buying public.
    They are the ones that need to come into the showrooms.

    My point was that the warranty might not be effective in combating the problem. If I remember correctly Lutz said that GM had a warranty which was the same as those offered by Nissan, Ford, Toytoa, etc. As a competitive tactic GM increased its warranties, assuming that this would give them an edge. But this didn’t happen and GM found that its superior warranty had no effect on the purchase decision. Because of this experience I’m thinking GM isn’t going to see any advantage in making their warranties any better than they are.

    IOW cash back or a lower price would stimulate traffic and sales better than a longer warranty.

    Personally I don’t look at warranties because new cars just don’t seem to have very many problems. Perhaps I’ve been spoiled.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:05 pm)

    Rashiid Amul:The Volt is the flagship car for the new GM. The new GM must prove that it is better than the old GM. It has to prove that it is not the same company that made completejunk (again, perception). How to do that? The same way Hyundai brought new customers into their showrooms (and Hyundai really did make complete junk at one time). With a warranty that made people feel comfortable, and by making cars there were/are very reliable.Ya right, good luck with that.  (Quote)

    GM’s new flagship is a car that will sell unprofitably in meager quantities? That ain’t good.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:14 pm)

    DonC: Personally I don’t look at warranties because new cars just don’t seem to have very many problems. Perhaps I’ve been spoiled.

    You’ve been lucky.
    My Subaru Outback had problems starting at 35,800 miles.
    For some reason, I purchased an extended warranty for that car and I was thankful I did.
    3 headgaskets, a transmission, and a new computer. That car cost my around $25K.
    At around 120,000 miles, I gave it to my sister. She put a new tranny in it and loves it.

    My Hyundai, which was only $13.5K out the door now has 218,000 miles on it and runs strong and has more interior features.

    You say warranties don’t help. Can you give me an example of what is driving American car buyers to GM showrooms in droves? I can’t think of any better way for the American public to get over their fear of American cars than taking the fear itself away. Do that by backing the product and fixing it when it breaks. This isn’t a difficult thing to do and it says a lot to those fearful people. You and I are going to have to agree to disagree. I’m sticking with this one, my friend.

    What is GM asking the American public to do?
    They are asking them to buy a new car with brand new technology and they are asking for the American public to trust a car company that has the negative perception of making junk. How does this work, I ask you?

    And as for my original purchase of my Hyundai: I needed a car fast and I needed a cheap one.
    I thought I was buying junk which is why I was happy with the 5yr/60,000 mile warranty.
    As I go forward, it is going to be difficult for me to give that warranty up.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:15 pm)

    Charlie H:
    GM’s new flagship is a car that will sell unprofitably in meager quantities?That ain’t good.  

    Only for now, Charlie. Give them time. They will come up to speed. Probably not for gen I though, sadly.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:25 pm)

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:29 pm)

    nasaman: ATTN GM SENIOR MGMT: Every word of what Rashiid says here is CORRECT and I fully concur!!! You should print several copies of this & give copies to Ed Whitacre & his entire staff as well as to each member of the GM Board of Directors for appropriate action!!!PS: Rashiid is a highly-educated IT manager who now owns TWO Hyundais — probably because of their warranties!  (Quote)

    Same here, my vehicle history goes as follows.

    1988 Pontiac Firebird – decent car but interior was junk and needed tightnened every week
    1999 Chevy S10 – 28,000 miles tranny replaced, 44,000 tranny problems again (after warranty)
    2000 Chevy Venture – Engine replaced under warranty at 12,000 mile (parents car)
    2001 Chevy S10 – (traded in POS 99 S10) Engine problems at 40k engine replaced at 80K

    All these vehicles were properly maintained and cared for. In 2005 the S10 was sold and replaced with a Scion XB, I swore (as well as my parents) to never own another GM vehilce again.

    The Volt is the only reason i would break that promise – I wil not settle for any other vehicle. Currently leasing a 2010 Prius, lease expires May of 2013. If the volt is not available by then, I will just buy the prius.

    GM – This car is a huge opportunity to win back lost customers – dont screw it up…


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:33 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: They need a way to convince the American public to come in and take a look, to take a test drive, and of course to buy. What a great way to do that by backing ones own product with a fantastic warranty?

    For me personally, a ‘fantastic’ warranty doesn’t mean much. A huge warranty tells me that the company is trying to sell something that may not make it to the end of the warranty. (The exact opposite of what you guys are saying.) If any car makes it past the first couple years, it’s likely that it will stay alive way beyond any warranty period as long as reasonable care and maintenance is done.

    Currently, I own a 2009 Impala, a 2002 Dakota and a 2005 Magnum. Before that, a 1991 Lumina, a 1999 Intrepid, and a 1991 Dakota. All are/were fine cars with no significant problems.

    I have never owned a foreign car, so, I have no opinion on them. Other than I don’t buy foreign cars. Period. It’s a political statement kind of like buying a Volt to use less foreign oil. I guess I’d rather pay my neighbors and friends than the alternative.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:38 pm)

    Nissan offering only a 5 year, 60,000 battery warranty will lead all of those customers whom are riding the fence between the LEAF and the Volt towards GM. Some will buy a LEAF because it is an EV regardless of the warranty, and some will buy the Volt because it’s an EREV. I believe there are plenty of eco-minded, anti-foreign oil people who will be happy with either car, but the warranty disparity will ultimately bring a significant portion of that crowd over to GM. Agree? Disagree?


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:40 pm)

    I’m on the same wavelength but different approach. Installed 6 kW of solar panels on the rooftop to offset our high electricity bill in summer (live in San Jose, CA). Essentially zeroed out our electric bill. Better yet, any net electricity we use is low consumption tier, i.e., priced at about 10c per KWH (as opposed to 54c per KWH at high consumption tiers — CA electricity is $$expensive). So am now ready to pump some sunshine into the Chevy Volt, or at least cheap electricity in high-demand months!

    carcus3:
    –add:I just passed the 1 year mark living in my “green design” home where I was the builder.My annual electricity use worked out to $55/mo on a pretty decent sized 3/3/2, 10′ ceilings,etc…,home in a hot environment.All that using fairly conventional building methods (green architecture, metal roof, foam insulation, 6″ walls, high seer, etc…)More and more I think we really lack the will more than the way to a high efficiency/renewable/viable future.  


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:43 pm)

    Nick D: GM – This car is a huge opportunity to win back lost customers – dont screw it up… 

    Or people who were never customers. Nissan has said that 90% of the people signing up for the Leaf don’t currently own a Nissan vehicle. The iPod was probably many people’s first Apple product. New technology lets you win new customers.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    sparks: Installed 6 kW of solar panels on the rooftop to offset our high electricity bill in summer (live in San Jose, CA).

    That’s great and I’ve done the same thing, but it’s hard to argue with the logic for building a more efficient house in the first place. For cars it would be hard to argue with the logic of building them with better aerodynamics and less mass. IOW the best solution is increased efficiency (so long as it’s cost effective).


  78. 78
    MetrologyFirst

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:49 pm)

    Nick D: 1988 Pontiac Firebird – decent car but interior was junk and needed tightnened every week
    1999 Chevy S10 – 28,000 miles tranny replaced, 44,000 tranny problems again (after warranty)
    2000 Chevy Venture – Engine replaced under warranty at 12,000 mile (parents car)
    2001 Chevy S10 – (traded in POS 99 S10) Engine problems at 40k engine replaced at 80K

    I’m not sure what you all do to your cars, but my wife and I have had only GM stuff for the last 25 years (S10, Beretta, Grand Am, Aurora, Blazer, etc.), probably totaled 600K miles, and have NEVER had an engine or transmission related problem.

    Your experience means as much as mine, apparently. Which is…. not much.

    I don’t expect the Volt to be any different.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:52 pm)

    Loboc: For me personally, a ‘fantastic’ warranty doesn’t mean much. A huge warranty tells me that the company is trying to sell something that may not make it to the end of the warranty. (The exact opposite of what you guys are saying.) If any car makes it past the first couple years, it’s likely that it will stay alive way beyond any warranty period as long as reasonable care and maintenance is done.

    Exactly.

    Always has been my experience.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (1:53 pm)

    sparks: I’m on the same wavelength but different approach. Installed 6 kW of solar panels on the rooftop

    My original plan was a DIY rooftop solar, but after seeing my usage is so low I find my motivation to get up on the roof is kind of low as well.
    Kind of weak, I guess, but that’s the reality.

    /maybe I’ll change my mind
    //much lower rates here (12c/kwh) , at 54c (holy crap!) I’d probably be motivated enough to get the ladder out.


  81. 81
    neutron

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (2:05 pm)

    I also concur with this post. #53 Rashiid Amul

    “Some of you seem to have limited your scope of GM to strictly the Volt.
    I have not. GM has suffered for years and years with the perception that they make complete junk. I doesn’t matter if that perception is based on fact or not. Perception becomes reality…..”

    I like GM / Chevy – they fixed some big issues with my Suburban quite a few years ago — for which I am grateful.
    BUT – I have many friends that related sad experiences. A few have stated they “NEVER will buy GM products again period.”

    I would hope the “NEW” post bankrupt GM does everything it can to win customers back.
    Many States where GM has parts suppliers and assembly plants and the country would gain if GM could change that perception.

    The VOLT is a great start and the comments about the BUICK also help.

    Everyone at GM, top – down should do all they can. It will be a win for everyone.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (2:05 pm)

    Tim in SC: but the warranty disparity will ultimately bring a significant portion of that crowd over to GM.

    What will swing me to a Volt vs LEAF more is if GM can swing the $7500 tax rebate into the lease.

    For a three-year lease, the warranties are essentially the same. They are both longer than three years.

    I have a feeling that people will lease these cars rather than buy because of the unknown track-record. We have no idea what the resale value will be and no idea if the battery/motor/electronics will hold up under real-world conditions. They can do all the regression testing in the world, but, once these cars start going over real railroad tracks and real pot-holes and real emergency stops in real rain and real snow and real 110-degree days, we will know more.

    What if Volt 2.0 (or LEAF 2.0) is way better? What does that do to your resale value? A lease is way safer.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (2:27 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): * A 20-mile AER version [of the Gen III Volt] may be offered at a lower price. With greater CS mode efficiency (see previous comment [#54]), this could be very compelling to anyone who owns a conventional hybrid.

    Nelson: If they did that and achieved 60 MPG or better in CS mode, it would make every other car obsolete.

    It would certainly make every Prius (or similar hybrid) obsolete! (Didn’t want to bait the High Priust so early in the thread). Voltec won’t make all cars obsolete until it can be expanded to larger (and reduced to smaller) types of vehicle; I expect we’ll start to see such development at or beyond Gen III; and also I hope, longer AER EREV offerings.

    (Note that a much larger vehicle could achieve 20-mile AER using the pack which provides 40 miles for the Volt; while the pack which provides 20 miles AER for the lower-range Volt might give 30 – 40 miles for something like the Spark. How much AER would a CUV or small van designed to carry multiple packs get? No guarantee GM will do any of this, of course; but it’s fun to think about).


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (2:28 pm)

    “Overall GM noted that its battery warranty was significantly longer that what Tesla offers on its Roadster which is “3-year, 36,000-mile standard,” according to Tesla spokesperson Rachel Konrad. “You can buy a two-year extension,” she added. Tesla also offers owners the option of paying a non-refundable $12,000 to get a free battery replacement at seven years..”

    I will take my chances with a GM battery warranty. I would ask … who would pay 12,000 dollars in advance for a Tesla battery????? and non refundable!!!! You will get a battery no matter what the future cost???? …. Maybe 3,000 dollars by then??


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (2:33 pm)

    OT: Here’s a thought! If one of the Dealer requirements to Volt allocation is the installation of 220v outlet on site, will I be able to have my Volt juiced at the dealer for an hour or two while I shop across the street? Opportunities will be amazing. It’s impossible for the common guy to open a gas station, too expensive, but I can see my cousin installing a couple of 220v outlets on his front yard and charging Volt customers an hourly rate to charge up while they shop at the mall across from his house. I guess he was right when he bought the house, location, location, location…

    NPNS!


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (2:33 pm)

    neutron: I will take my chances with a GM battery warranty. I would ask … who would pay 12,000 dollars in advance for a Tesla battery????? and non refundable!!!! You will get a battery no matter what the future cost???? …. Maybe 3,000 dollars by then??

    Not to mention whether or not Tesla is still in business by then.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (2:52 pm)

    Nick D: 1999 Chevy S10 – 28,000 miles tranny replaced, 44,000 tranny problems again (after warranty)
    2001 Chevy S10 – (traded in POS 99 S10) Engine problems at 40k engine replaced at 80K

    Why would you buy another S10, essentially the same model, if the first one had so many problems?


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:01 pm)

    Loboc: Why would you buy another S10, essentially the same model, if the first one had so many problems?  (Quote)

    I owned a small business and one of my customers was the car dealership where the vehicle was purchased. We worked out a deal where I would offer services in exchange for a good deal on the new S10, essentially they bought the 99 for the balance owed on the truck and sold me the 01 below MSRP. There were also several minor changes to the drivetrain between 99 and 2001, the issuses with the 1999 were a common issue. Im not saying all GM products are bad, just in my family we have had terrible luck.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:01 pm)

    Rashiid Amul:
    … I can’t think of any better way for the American public to get over their fear of American cars than taking the fear itself away.Do that by backing the product and fixing it when it breaks …

    I disagree. A big warranty does very little to motivate me. Fixing a product after it breaks doesn’t take away the sting of poor quality. I want a product that doesn’t break in the first place.

    Personal experience with the company’s products in the past, experiences of friends and family, reviews by professional publications, detailed knowledge of the company’s management style and of the product’s design and manufacturing methods, and general reputation of the company are factors to convince me of a product’s likely reliability.

    In the case of the Volt, GM’s open development is letting me see their careful development process, including features that will make the car reliable (i.e., extensive battery management) and a change in management attitude. This makes me more comfortable that the Volt is likely to be more reliable than GM vehicles in the recent past.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:05 pm)

    kdawg: Parks also noted that the battery is warrantied for both level 1 (120-v) and level 2 (240-v) charging, and that the use of either has no effect on performance or longevity.

    Yes.

    (from the article)

    “Parks also noted that the battery is warrantied for both level 1 (120-v) and level 2 (240-v) charging, and that the use of either has no effect on performance or longevity. “


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:08 pm)

    Guys… I am updating one of my handouts for the VOLT.

    I can’t find it in the forums here… What was the recharge time at 120v and at 240v again?


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    Future LEAF Driver

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:13 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Guys… I am updating one of my handouts for the VOLT.I can’t find it in the forums here… What was the recharge time at 120v and at 240v again?  

    http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do
    In about ten hours, you’ll have a fully charged Volt waiting for you, ready to go. You can also install a 240V outlet, which can charge Volt in as little as four hours.

    GO EV!!!!


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:14 pm)

    My post #90.

    some how kdawg’s question was changed to what I hadon the clipboard.

    Here was his Question @ #50

    “There is a portable 120V charge cord, and a wall mounted 240V charger unit. I want to know if both of these are covered by the 8year warranty?”

    Answer is (from the article)

    “Parks also noted that the battery is warrantied for both level 1 (120-v) and level 2 (240-v) charging, and that the use of either has no effect on performance or longevity. “


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:16 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): It would certainly make every Prius (or similar hybrid) obsolete!

    FULL hybrids currently have the ablility to deliver 100 km/h in EV mode. Changing the motor and PSD would allow them to go even faster, plus offer direct-drive. So, the word obsolete doesn’t really mean anything. Of course, that could just be another way of stating a technology has matured, rather than still being in the early-adopter phase.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:30 pm)

    Future LEAF Driver: CorvetteGuy: Guys… I am updating one of my handouts for the VOLT.I can’t find it in the forums here… What was the recharge time at 120v and at 240v again?

    http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do
    In about ten hours, you’ll have a fully charged Volt waiting for you, ready to go. You can also install a 240V outlet, which can charge Volt in as little as four hours.

    GO EV!!!!

    One of us has old information:

    http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/

    I have always heard up to 8hrs for 110v and up to 3hrs for 220v.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:31 pm)

    Loboc: For me personally, a ‘fantastic’ warranty doesn’t mean much. A huge warranty tells me that the company is trying to sell something that may not make it to the end of the warranty. (The exact opposite of what you guys are saying.) If any car makes it past the first couple years, it’s likely that it will stay alive way beyond any warranty period as long as reasonable care and maintenance is done.Currently, I own a 2009 Impala, a 2002 Dakota and a 2005 Magnum. Before that, a 1991 Lumina, a 1999 Intrepid, and a 1991 Dakota. All are/were fine cars with no significant problems. I have never owned a foreign car, so, I have no opinion on them. Other than I don’t buy foreign cars. Period. It’s a political statement kind of like buying a Volt to use less foreign oil. I guess I’d rather pay my neighbors and friends than the alternative.  (Quote)

    Bob G: I disagree. A big warranty does very little to motivate me. Fixing a product after it breaks doesn’t take away the sting of poor quality. I want a product that doesn’t break in the first place. Personal experience with the company’s products in the past, experiences of friends and family, reviews by professional publications, detailed knowledge of the company’s management style and of the product’s design and manufacturing methods, and general reputation of the company are factors to convince me of a product’s likely reliability.In the case of the Volt, GM’s open development is letting me see their careful development process, including features that will make the car reliable (i.e., extensive battery management) and a change in management attitude. This makes me more comfortable that the Volt is likely to be more reliable than GM vehicles in the recent past.  (Quote)

    Your personal preferences are entirely at odd with both the way businesses look at warranties, which is to offer the best warranty you can afford as a way to differentiate your product and instill confidence, and the Hyundai experience, where a killer warranty backing a product that they knew to be good helped revive the company.

    I’ve been involved in MTBF and similar calculations and projections on expensive hard goods that carried warranties. Warranties are extremely important and you must KNOW your product to get the warranty and the price right.

    If GM’s not offering a killer warranty, it’s because they don’t have confidence that the product won’t cost them an arm and a leg in warranty costs. They don’t think the battery life is there or that the vehicle in general is any better than a Cruze.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:36 pm)

    Bob G: In the case of the Volt, GM’s open development is letting me see their careful development process, including features that will make the car reliable (i.e., extensive battery management) and a change in management attitude. This makes me more comfortable that the Volt is likely to be more reliable than GM vehicles in the recent past.

    Me too. But it doesn’t change a thing about how I feel concerning every other vehicle they make. I won’t argue with you if you want to take a chance and buy something other than the Volt from GM. It’s your money. My point is people need to feel comfortable with a purchase this large. And GM needs to get people who are not prone to purchasing their products back in the door. What will work quickly? Giving all their vehicles away for free would certainly work, but it is not going to happen. The next best thing is a super good warranty. You disagree? Then how else can GM get people back in droves?


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:43 pm)

    nasaman #60

    You can add me to the list also. I specifically bought a Sonata because of the warranty (okay I also like the way it looked). I previous had a Saturn, which I spent an additional $4,000 in repairs after the warranty ran out. I don’t want to get stuck on the side of the road, so i will gladly pay more in exchange for a more reliable car. I am hoping the Volt will be more reliable than a non-electric car.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:47 pm)

    Here is the commercial.

    “We are the new GM. Thanks to the American people, we have been able to streamline our business. We cut the redundancies and have made quality and reliability our number one goal.
    Today, our products are better than they have been in the last 100 years. Come down to our showrooms. Test drive a new General Motors vehicle. If you like, buy it, and we will back it up with the best vehicle warranty on the planet. When you buy one of our vehicles, you won’t be alone. We will be with you. We are the new General Motors.”


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:51 pm)

    I have never owned a Hyundai. However, I considered them to be cheap crap until two things happened: The first was that amazing warranty. The second was testimonials of actual Hyundai buyers who did apparently respond to it. Since then, word at large has become not just favorable, but exemplary. I am now prepared to take Hyundai, and Korean carmakers in general, very seriously.

    It isn’t just the warranty, it’s the commitment to quality which makes such a warranty possible. Hyundai must have begun to address quality before their warranty offering. In other words, they first put in the effort for quality, and then offered the warranty as a “put up or shut up.”

    GM, launching a new technology, has offered a “put up or shut up” warranty on the Volt’s most important and speculated-about component; fair enough.

    I think that offering a better overall warranty will help GM, whether or not people respond immediately. Someone will respond, and good word will get out. That is, if GM is ready to “put up or shut up” on general quality across their brands. A super-warranty is a tactic which requires homework and preparation ahead of time.

    The rise of Korean manufacturing is relevant not just to a discussion of warranties; Hyundai purportedly has one of the few serious EREV efforts in work, behind the scenes. Intriguingly, they addressed quality and did brand-building first, so that now there is no need for them to be transparent and open about the development of their ground-breaking electrification effort. Hyundai could well turn out to be GM’s ultimate EV nightmare.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (3:57 pm)

    Nelson: OT: Here’s a thought! If one of the Dealer requirements to Volt allocation is the installation of 220v outlet on site, will I be able to have my Volt juiced at the dealer for an hour or two while I shop across the street?

    For dealers, 220v charging allows a lot of customers to test drive all-electric at least part of the way. That’s the idea anyway.

    Nelson: Opportunities will be amazing. It’s impossible for the common guy to open a gas station, too expensive, but I can see my cousin installing a couple of 220v outlets on his front yard and charging Volt customers an hourly rate to charge up while they shop at the mall across from his house. I guess he was right when he bought the house, location, location, location…

    I don’t think 220v charging saves that much, maybe 2-3 gallons per year for most people. Remember that the Volt’s gas engine has to run occasionally in order to stay healthy and to keep the gas from going stale. So if you always drive electric, the software will automatically turn on the engine every couple of months anyway.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:05 pm)

    Mitch: My post #90.
    some how kdawg’s question was changed to what I hadon the clipboard.
    Here was his Question @ #50
    “There is a portable 120V charge cord, and a wall mounted 240V charger unit. I want to know if both of these are covered by the 8year warranty?”
    Answer is (from the article)
    “Parks also noted that the battery is warrantied for both level 1 (120-v) and level 2 (240-v) charging, and that the use of either has no effect on performance or longevity. “

    I know that the battery is covered w/both types of charging, but I want to know if the charging devices themselves are covered. I’ve had a lot of charging units go bad quickly. Also the cord will see the most physical wear & tear from constant plugging & unplugging. I dont want to have to buy a new one for $300 before the 8 years is up, so it would be nice if this was covered too.


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    Future LEAF Driver

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:07 pm)

    Loboc:
    One of us has old information:http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/I have always heard up to 8hrs for 110v and up to 3hrs for 220v.  

    LOL, I just cut and pasted from GM’s own VOLT info, but you can always make up your own…

    GO EV – but only if 100 miles a day works for you!!!!


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:22 pm)

    Future LEAF Driver: LOL, I just cut and pasted from GM’s own VOLT info, but you can always make up your own

    I just cut and paste from Lyle’s interview with the guru at GM. Gery Kissel, GM’s engineering specialist who developed the Volt’s charging equipment.

    All I’m saying is that the two don’t match, not that anybody is making anything up. Sheesh.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:24 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: Some of you seem to have limited your scope of GM to strictly the Volt.

    Yes, count me in that group. If it weren’t for the Volt, I wouldn’t even consider buying GM.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:33 pm)

    Dave G: I don’t think 220v charging saves that much, maybe 2-3 gallons per year for most people.

    But, we’re Americans. We want it faster, better, cheaper!

    Say you wake up at 6:00am and your smartphone says that there’s a fault with the charging last night. With 220v, you have a chance to get a full charge before work. With 110v, not so much.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:39 pm)

    carcus3: By 2012 we may have a 100 mpg hybrid in the form of a Fiat 500 — no plug.Well, probably not really 100 mpg, but 70+mpg is entirely possible. For those who might think in the 30’s CS mpg for the volt is acceptable, is it acceptable if you’re burning almost as much fuel in your volt on an annual basis as you would be in a hybrid that probably costs 1/2 as much AND won’t require an expensive/worrisome battery warranty?GM needs to get gen ii sorted out ASAP. tick tockFiat’s hybrid 500 charges up!Electric boost set to give city car 100mpg with motor added to new TwinAir model.http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/254401/fiats_hybrid_500_charges_up.html  (Quote)

    I think mopeds get about 130mpg


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:46 pm)

    john1701a: FULL hybrids currently have the ablility to deliver 100 km/h in EV mode. Changing the motor and PSD would allow them to go even faster, plus offer direct-drive. So, the word obsolete doesn’t really mean anything. Of course, that could just be another way of stating a technology has matured, rather than still being in the early-adopter phase.  (Quote)

    And they can make your aunt your uncle these days and vice versa. So what?


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:46 pm)

    I must have missed something while on my two week vacation.
    The list price is official? $32,500? So the tax credit can lower that (on my taxes)
    to $25K?

    http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2003892_2003887_2003899,00.html


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:51 pm)

    Loboc: For me personally, a ‘fantastic’ warranty doesn’t mean much. A huge warranty tells me that the company is trying to sell something that may not make it to the end of the warranty. (The exact opposite of what you guys are saying.) If any car makes it past the first couple years, it’s likely that it will stay alive way beyond any warranty period as long as reasonable care and maintenance is done.Currently, I own a 2009 Impala, a 2002 Dakota and a 2005 Magnum. Before that, a 1991 Lumina, a 1999 Intrepid, and a 1991 Dakota. All are/were fine cars with no significant problems. I have never owned a foreign car, so, I have no opinion on them. Other than I don’t buy foreign cars. Period. It’s a political statement kind of like buying a Volt to use less foreign oil. I guess I’d rather pay my neighbors and friends than the alternative.  (Quote)

    Agreed but I’ld acutally go farther. It means I’m over-insuring. Anybody think they actually make out financially on their insurance? Same is true for warrantees. The manufacturers charge more than they reasonable expect to pay out in warrranty claims. Same as with casinos. Yes, you can get lucky once in a while but the odds are stack against you.

    I wish there was a minimal warranty baked in and those wanted more could pay for the extended warrantees. I’m guessing many would choose not to if they new how much the warranty actually costs.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:52 pm)

    Loboc: ..They can do all the regression testing in the world, but, once these cars start going over real railroad tracks and real pot-holes and real emergency stops in real rain and real snow and real 110-degree days, we will know more….

    All the more reason why they should have had a Project Driveway for the last year.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (4:57 pm)

    Two giant questions not yet answered or asked as far as I’ve seen:

    1) Is the warranty prorated (guessing it must be)?

    2) What are the other engineering hurdles that will be met in 2013 model that were not met in Gen 1? I and many others are interested in plug-ins at least in part for it’s positive environmental impacts. If there is something substantially lacking in this respect, I would like to know what it is.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:00 pm)

    Yeah, you’re looking at about a buck a day to fully charge an “empty” Volt battery, so the argument for solar isn’t very strong in your situation. With the panels, I’m effectively in your electricity price zone, but without them I would by in “holy crap” territory! In the latter case, fully charging a depleted Volt battery would cost about $4.50, which still isn’t bad for 40 miles of driving (as $4.50 will soon be the price of one gallon of gas). But it’s the panels that have me so interested in the Volt (that and because I’m a techno-geek engineer). I also like the idea of being independent of gasoline shortages or rationing, which aren’t all that far-out looking into the future.

    carcus3:
    My original plan was a DIY rooftop solar, but after seeingmy usage is so low I find my motivation to get up on the roof is kind of low as well.
    Kind of weak, I guess, but that’s the reality./maybe I’ll change my mind
    //much lower rates here (12c/kwh) , at 54c (holy crap!)I’d probably be motivated enough to get the ladder out.  


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:04 pm)

    koz:
    I think mopeds get about 130mpg  

    I understand you like mopeds, but you’d need a bmx bike if you wanted to race.

    James May’s Fiat 500 vs BMX
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZmGv-ecm3I&feature=fvw


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:09 pm)

    Nelson: OT: Here’s a thought!If one of the Dealer requirements to Volt allocation is the installation of 220v outlet on site, will I be able to have my Volt juiced at the dealer for an hour or two while I shop across the street?Opportunities will be amazing.It’s impossible for the common guy to open a gas station, too expensive, but I can see my cousin installing a couple of 220v outlets on his front yard and charging Volt customers an hourly rate to charge up while they shop at the mall across from his house.I guess he was right when he bought the house, location, location, location…NPNS!  

    Sounds like a modern version of a lemonade stand (g).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:09 pm)

    Tagamet: All the more reason why they should have had a Project Driveway for the last year.

    Hey Tag,

    Perhaps somewhere in the inner rooms at GM the 10K first year production is a version of project driveway with the drivers paying for the privilege.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:10 pm)

    Whoa! Does anyone have an answer to Rashiid’s question? Has the MSRP been announced?? Sure looks official on the Time Magazine link Rashiid provided.

    Rashiid Amul: I must have missed something while on my two week vacation.
    The list price is official?$32,500?So the tax credit can lower that (on my taxes)
    to $25K?http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2003892_2003887_2003899,00.html  


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:11 pm)

    As someone who drives 25,000 miles per year, I’ll never need 8 years. The 100,000 miles is wonderful. As for length of warranty, having owned Buick cars for 30 years, the warranty tends to catch the few things that happen. After that, I can’t kill these cars. They last endlessly. Never even had to change a starter, alternator, generator, fuel pump, nothing. Just buff the exterior out and they shine up like new. Amazingly made products, with American and Canadian parts and assembly.


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    Hopeful

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:16 pm)

    Nothing in Colorado. Hoping to preorder using my Connecticut contacts.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:22 pm)

    sparks: Whoa! Does anyone have an answer to Rashiid’s question?Has the MSRP been announced??Sure looks official on the Time Magazine link Rashiid provided.
      

    Until GM puts the car out in volume, the price is irrelevant. They’ll likely just MSRP a lead-loss on it (and maybe let the dealers “get there’s” in mark-ups) through the limited production run. Might help give the IPO a little boost.

    – of course, this approach could back-fire on them later if the situation gets out of hand


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    James

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:22 pm)

    I would have to agree with Rashiid all the way on this subject. His example was perfect. Hyundai made absolute crap on wheels for the first few years they did business in America. I remember the jokes, and all the broken down Hyundais alongside the freeway I’d see on my 25 mile commute to work back then. Those things don’t just leave you. Today, Hyundai is probably soon to exceed Ford in sales if they don’t watch out. The Genesis sedan is one great bargain and just exudes quality. It will be interesting to see how they enter the plug in market because their latest salvo is impressive – saw the latest iteration of the Sonata recently and it turned my head. A real nice looking car ( for a dirty ICE ). Their warranty pushes people past their worries, definately.

    Posters here who’ve proclaimed they buy American just don’t have a reference point of comparison. U.S. car companies largely have dished out crap. Customers, in the name of “patriotism” have allowed companies like Chrysler and GM to skate by making their UAW paychecks and pension plans while serving up McDonald’s burgers. Long on advertising flash, but short on the goods.

    I’m proud of Americans who work at Toyota, BMW and Honda plants. I think most get a fair wage and work as hard as Americans traditionally have, which is considerably. GM and Chrysler need to find their way out of the huge union trap that forces them budgetarily to manufacture sub-par machines they expect the advertising to make up for. One poster here a month or so back was chronicling his life history of new car GM purchase disasters – quoting melting door trim, rattling interiors, and a constant trail of broken basic parts that in a Toyota would be something invisibly working in the background for 200,000 miles or more. Have a daughter going off to college? Want to keep her safe with a reliable steed? Buy her a used Camry, they’re all over the place, cheap and as secure at 80,000 miles as they were at 5,000.

    GM has impressed us all with the transparency and effort to test test test the Volt to the nth degree. I love watching the tests and admire their thoroughness. Still, all that PR hasn’t gotten rid of that sour taste in my memory of the GM that sent me to Japan for my vehicles.

    Warranties are a message from a manufacturer to their customer. It’s a strong way of saying they truly have turned over a new LEAF — er —- Volt!

    RECHARGE!

    James


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    flmark

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:22 pm)

    carcus3: Another add (a rant, really) on the “green” house building thing.When someone asks me (or sometimes even when they don’t) , I’ll tell them about it. Even though I should just be happy about my accomplishment, … sometimes my mood will switch over and I’ll start dropping the eff bomb because it pizzes me off — this was my 1ST EFFIN TIME as a builder — and my home uses 1/3 of the energy of a conventional home, and I’ll easily recover my “green” expenditures in just a few years. So I wonder what the eff have we been doing ??? Why do all of the “standard” choices/building techniques use so much energy??? What do I have to do next? Go in the garage and build my own car???  (Quote)

    For reference, here is a TV article that was done on our green efforts at home.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMOCPGLqoGI

    Also, we have greened up the business too, and you can see something about that here.
    http://www.fox4morningblend.com/videos/96470599.html

    After you start down this path, you’ll find you become nearly obsessive-compulsive about minimizing waste and being efficient. I believe strongly in global warming and find it difficult to believe that so many believe it some kind of conspiracy theory. Of course, living in FL in 2004 when 4 hurricanes hit us within 6 weeks can make you a believer! However, you don’t have to believe in global warming to become green. The word “waste” has no positive connotation whatsoever and most people think good things when they think about being efficient. As you try to spread the green word, try using these concepts (in addition to earth’s resources, the collapse of civilization as we know it, etc).

    Speaking of the collapse of civilization, has anybody but me ever pondered over the 666 number that is supposed to be the mark of the beast? This number has allegedly been linked to conducting commerce during the end times. After more depressing stuff about our oil-addicted civilization on the news last week, it struck me what the periodic table indicates about carbon. The number on the bottom is 6 (Atomic Number) and the number at the top is 6 + 6 (for the atomic mass). There you have it- 3 sixes- all associated with our carbon problem. And the past few years have reinforced that it is nearly impossible (at present) to conduct commerce without that black poison known as oil. Spread the rumor- oil is the mark of the beast! Maybe people will listen then.

    Doubtful. I read the dismay in your writing and I can only concur. If you can’t convince your family and friends to even recycle, you feel there is no hope for the rest of humanity. Americans are spoiled. Few seem to want to do anything if it upsets their lifestyle or comfort options. At my FL home, I sometimes hear my neighbor’s atmospheric control systems running and I can’t figure out whether they are heating or cooling. The weather outside will be idyllic and I just want to go up and bang on the door, “Open your windows!!” Nope, the sprinklers run in the rain and they sit inside oblivious to the what their impact on the planet is.

    Don’t want to depress you, though. Keep on trying. Talk about light bulbs. Talk about jack rabbit starts while driving. Talk about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch- a patch of plastic the size of Texas in the middle of the ocean. Talk about the Centralia (PA) coal mine fire that has been burning (underground) for nearly 50 years and killed the town. Some estimate that the fire could continue burning for another century. Oh yeah, and now we may have something similar in the Gulf if indeed the oil has decided to bypass the wellhead and just start leaching out of the ocean floor.

    When I told my son-in-law about the GPGP a few months ago, he replied, “Why don’t we ever hear about this stuff?” Well it is people like us here at GM Volt who need to spread the word. Get us off oil- Get us our Volts.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:24 pm)

    Loboc: What will swing me to a Volt vs LEAF more is if GM can swing the $7500 tax rebate into the lease.For a three-year lease, the warranties are essentially the same. They are both longer than three years. I have a feeling that people will lease these cars rather than buy because of the unknown track-record. We have no idea what the resale value will be and no idea if the battery/motor/electronics will hold up under real-world conditions. They can do all the regression testing in the world, but, once these cars start going over real railroad tracks and real pot-holes and real emergency stops in real rain and real snow and real 110-degree days, we will know more.What if Volt 2.0 (or LEAF 2.0) is way better? What does that do to your resale value? A lease is way safer.  (Quote)

    If GM can factor the $7,500 Federal Rebate into a lease so can Nissan.

    Anyone remember EV1… I think a few of you do… I doubt leasing will be too high a percentage of VOLT sales – maybe 15-20%. While there is no absolute right or wrong answer, in this case there are many reasons most will buy:
    -customers have been waiting so long, they’ve got the cash saved up!
    -interest rates are at historically low levels
    -most buyers won’t want to be restricted with annual miles (even though you can tailor a lease to your exact personal needs)
    -because the volt represents new technology, most leasing companies will be very conservative with future value estimates – resulting in lower residual values, thus increased payments.
    -many early adapters want to buy a Gen1 model because they are getting one of only 40,000 or so that will be made – and there will likely be rewards – both social and otherwise – for having one of the first models.

    Since there is no pricing, and thus no information on lease terms, it is too early to make any absolute decision. But I would always suggest you compare your options before deciding.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:25 pm)

    kdawg:
    I know that the battery is covered w/both types of charging, but I want to know if the charging devices themselves are covered.I’ve had a lot of charging units go bad quickly.Also the cord will see the most physical wear & tear from constant plugging & unplugging.I dont want to have to buy a new one for $300 before the 8 years is up, so it would be nice if this was covered too.  

    What kind of cord would cost $300?

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:36 pm)

    And to my green discussion, let’s add one more thing. I love this commercial

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml54UuAoLSo

    The actual product is but a small part of the message. I laugh every time I watch it. I think of it as dark humor.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:36 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: I must have missed something while on my two week vacation.
    The list price is official?$32,500?So the tax credit can lower that (on my taxes)
    to $25K?http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2003892_2003887_2003899,00.html  

    sparks: Whoa! Does anyone have an answer to Rashiid’s question? Has the MSRP been announced?? Sure looks official on the Time Magazine link Rashiid provided.

    $32,000 + 7,500 (tax credit) = $40,000; the figure Time and most other clueless news outlets have had etched in stone for 2+ years. Believe MSRP when you read it here, and not before.

    “TIME lies, and you are there!”


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:39 pm)

    flmark: you don’t have to believe in global warming to become green.

    There are many, many people on all sides of this question, and on both sides of the political spectrum, who need to embrace this truth.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:50 pm)

    Tagamet:
    What kind of cord would cost $300?Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    The cost of a replacement cord would be a great question if Lyle could find out that little tidbit. If you charge at work in a public parking garage, Costco or any number of vulnerable public spots such as the quick charging sites Governor Gregoire is setting up along the I-5 corridor in Western Washington State – it’s easy to see the Volt, LEAF and iMiev cords being prey to vandals and thieves.

    Not sure if $300 will be the replacement price, but I wouldn’t doubt it since it is proprietary. Could be years before someone manufactures aftermarket EV cords. How about if Volt shocks anyone grabbing the cord without a matching key fob in their pocket or purse – unless it’s at the home charging station? …Hmmmm….

    RECHARGE!

    James


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:51 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): $32,000 $32,500 + 7,500 (tax credit) = $40,000

    Fixed that for me.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (5:53 pm)

    30 Schmeltz:
    Lets not forget the Leaf customers will need to compete with Tesla and the myriad of other car companies that so many here say are “just around the corner” and “about to eat GM’s lunch”.So if you are lucky enough to be at the front of the front, you will still need to split a part of your small pie with others.Lots of luck with that.I’m not saying that to be mean either, I’m just trying to present it realistically.  

    Yes, I agree. It’s also true that it is gm pointing out the limit of 700 in CA, but there are bonuses in other states as well, and CA may decide to do more than 700 when those are used up, so there will be some opportunities to get the $5000.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:05 pm)

    Nikkei: Honda To Roll Out Plug-In Hybrid and EV In 2013, Official Announcement Tuesday
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/07/honda-20100719.html#more

    Lots of competition coming. There’s going to be a whole lot to choose from in 2013.

    I could see the Honda plug in hybrid competing with the BMW megacity for my #1 choice.

    /If the Honda plug in hybrid is a CR-Z and you can get some performance boost out of the pack (think electric NOS) — I’m there.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:17 pm)

    CordGate Part II

    Here is the Tesla home “High Power Connector”. The cord for this puppy was standard with their optional 70 amp charger when wealthy owners prepaid as much as $50k to lock in their spot on the waiting list for the Roadster. They got really mad when Tesla changed their pricing structure and asked an additional $3000 for the cord!

    RECHARGE!

    James


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:17 pm)

    DSC_2914.jpg


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:19 pm)

    James: Today, Hyundai is probably soon to exceed Ford in sales if they don’t watch out.

    The Genesis is a nice car and the Sonata may be better, but they’re not likely to move Hyundai from its current sales of 50,000/month to Ford’s 170,000/month. Tough market segment. Good reason for GM to come up with a CNG Malibu.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:20 pm)

    carcus3: Nikkei: Honda To Roll Out Plug-In Hybrid and EV In 2013, Official Announcement Tuesday
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/07/honda-20100719.html#more

    “Honda reportedly will release its electric car in the US first.”

    Not much to go on for the EV (the PHEV is supposed to get better mileage than Toyota’s), but otherwise seems as significant as the return of the Rav4-EV (if not more so).

    If they want to make a splash in the US, Honda should ditch the little pancake motor in the Insight2 and start over with something much more powerful.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:27 pm)

    James: CordGate Part IIHere is the Tesla home “High Power Connector”. The cord for this puppy was standard with their optional 70 amp charger when wealthyowners prepaid as much as $50k to lock in their spot on the waiting list for the Roadster. They got really mad when Tesla changed their pricing structure and asked an additional $3000 for the cord!RECHARGE!James  

    OUCH! That *is* scandalous!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:36 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    “Honda reportedly will release its electric car in the US first.”Not much to go on for the EV (the PHEV is supposed to get better mileage than Toyota’s), but otherwise seems as significant as the return of the Rav4-EV (if not more so).If they want to make a splash in the US, Honda should ditch the little pancake motor in the Insight2 and start over with something much more powerful.  

    I think there’s a lot of opportunity for plug in “sport” hybrids. Fuel economy AND performance — I want it all.

    Speaking of fuel economy AND performance ….
    500 ABARTH
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnRsiSuAhM0&feature=related

    ( it’s a cool song, even if you don’t like the car)


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    carcus3:
    I think there’s a lot of opportunity for plug in “sport” hybrids.Fuel economy AND performance — I want it all.Speaking of fuel economy AND performance ….
    500 ABARTH
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnRsiSuAhM0&feature=related( it’s a cool song, even if you don’t like the car)  

    Song was cool (sounded like it’d go good with tequila), but the car looked a bit egg shaped. I know, everyone’s a critic (g). What’s with the red scorpions?

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:49 pm)

    Tagamet: . . . . the car looked a bit egg shaped. I know, everyone’s a critic (g). What’s with the red scorpions?

    Some people like their eggs spicy.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:50 pm)

    Speaking of cool things on youtube, check out the Volt brake testing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPdmTqs_YQs&feature=player_embedded


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (6:56 pm)

    flmark, posts #122 & 125:
    For reference, here is a TV article that was done on our green efforts at home.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMOCPGLqoGI
    Also, we have greened up the business too, and you can see something about that here.
    http://www.fox4morningblend.com/videos/96470599.html  

    I agreed with all you said, Mark, and really enjoyed all 3 videos. It’s great to hear from a fellow Floridian who’s doing everything possible to address the REAL problem of global warming!

    /We got Charlie & the other 3 hurricanes in 2004 here in the Orlando area too —quite a wakeup call!


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:04 pm)

    carcus3: My personal goal is to reduce my use of gasoline down to 1/3 of what I have traditionally used. — so about 350 g/yr is my goal.

    Do you drive a lot? I ask because I think your goal is roughly about what I use, now. In which case, if you routinely drive farther than 40 miles then, certainly your average mileage can be obtained with a very high mileage more conventional vehicle than the Volt.
    But, for those of us who drive shorter distances, there really is no comparison. The 40mpc of the Volt means I can cut my gas consumption by much more than 2/3. But more important to me is I hope to help foster the technology that eventually can do even better than that.

    Good job on your house. I am sure that most buildings are built to maximize profits for the builders, not to minimize the monthly costs and environmental impacts throughout their useful lifetime.
    After retrofitting my 1962 POS house as much as possible, I was down to about $100/mo average electricity costs (which is not cheap here in Silicon Valley we were around $0.15-$.020 kwh, I forget where you are). We offset the rest with solar panels. And of course that cost thousands more for installation than it could have were the house to have just a few hundred bucks of ‘hooks’ for solar when it was built.

    Of course, if I buy a Volt, then I’ll be forced to switch to rate schedule E9 and my electric costs will probably be as high as they were before I got the solar panels because that rate schedule is just brutal against solar owners. :( So, I’m currently building strips of solar modules that I can mount on my ‘solar arbor’ I just built. For those following along at home, I have taken a slight hiatus from my solar module work while I work on the insane irrigation system that I’m tying into the rest of my house automation system. (16 fully automated irrigation zones – I’m expecting to be able to fine tune it to use as little water as possible but we shall see if I am right) :) Got to get those plants back in the ground before my wife loses any more of them!

    Plus, I’ve bought a couple banana plants that need to get in the ground. I’m really excited about the bananas. :)

    I suppose I should say something about the Volt warranty. Mmm. I am not sure I care how long any of the warranties last because I’ve never gotten anything fixed by the dishonest dealers I have to deal with around here. The worst one was when I bought the Eclipse with 16k miles on it and when it got to about 35k the transmission was clearly starting to go out (on a 50k powertrain warranty). I argued with the dealer (of which there is ONE in 60 miles – one of the Axis of Evil Steven’s Creek Monopoly dealers) but to make a long story short they threatened to charge me $10k to service it if they found that it was somehow related to the clutch (which was always heavier on that car than it should have been and as they were eager to point out is a “wear item” and thus not subject to the warranty). So, I knew where that would wind up with them so I just drove it anyway and then at 45k when the cluster gear finally shattered it was, of course out of warranty (I already said I don’t drive far, the car was 10 years old by then :) ) I had it replaced at the local transmission shop for about $2k.

    That’s just one story- I have a lot more! :) , but on all the cars I’ve bought and driven, I’ve never had one where the warranty was worth ANYTHING to me. The dealers either weasel out of doing anything or don’t actually fix anything that they said they did or everything breaks outside of the warranty, or in some cases, the car didn’t ever break – but whatever the reason, I’ve got zip from any car warranty and simply wind up paying for everything myself (or not), anyway.

    So my bottom line is I’m not sure I really care what the warranty is. I care about what the battery chemistry is and the longevity plan is and I’ll take my chances from there. :) I’m pretty happy with the Volt’s plan. I think I would have been a little happier with A123 cells but the LG ones seem decent enough. In 10 years when I have like 50k miles on my Volt, we’ll see how they’re doing. ;)

    Also, before you buy any car with a warranty ask to see just exactly what the list of “Wear Items” is. You may be surprised how much stuff isn’t actually covered by the warranty, even if it IS their manufacturing defect. If they can blame you, they will.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:10 pm)

    carcus3: I think there’s a lot of opportunity for plug in “sport” hybrids. Fuel economy AND performance

    I agree. I think that is what the Volt will eventually morph into: Somewhere past Gen III when Voltec has spread to several models (including super high-efficiency, larger and smaller vehicle sizes). The performance of the Gen I Volt is already impressive (I drove a prototype in New York earlier this year), and I expect the original EREV to take “point” for EREV performance at GM. Could be wrong … but I think Volt will gradually become the “electric Camaro” that the original concept hinted at.


  144. 144
    James

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:17 pm)

    Michael: Speaking of cool things on youtube, check out the Volt brake testing.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPdmTqs_YQs&feature=player_embedded  (Quote)

    Volt Rental Car Testing Dept. :)

    Thanks for the heads-up Michael! This has to be the best Volt video ever! I mean Valerie is just flogging that Volt! Man! Go to You Tube and watch this, it’s awesome. Dirt tracking sideways Volt. It’s intense, what a great job to have Valerie – every day just getting inside a Volt( under strict parameters and spec of course ) and just riding it hard and putting it away wet. I’m far from a masochist but it does my heart good to know somewhere, somehow, someone is beating the living daylights out of a Volt before I can buy a shiny clean new one and drive it sanely to get max AER.

    RECHARGE!

    James

    P.S. – “But officer, I was only testing my Volt in a power slide situation offroad – a duty I take seriously for the safety sake of oh so many future EREV buyers!”

    P.S. II – How does this braking system she describes work? This is an interesting subject I must have missed out on.


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    Jim I

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:20 pm)

    Tagamet:
    When trading in a 9 yr old Volt you will be looking at competing with at least Gen 2 and possibly Gen 3 on the road. At that point, doesn’t that make the battery warranty a little less of an issue? I’m just thinking that after holding the Volt for almost a decade, I’d just run the wheels off of it (as I do with now) JMO. I’m just very glad that they didn’t hold up the release of the Volt altogether because of 700 available rebates in CA.Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    ==============================

    And who cares is Tom Hanks, Ed Begley Jr., and Jay Leno get an extra rebate….

    After all, who do you think will be the first owners of these cars?????

    JMHO

    NPNS


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    kdawg

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:26 pm)

    Tagamet: What kind of cord would cost $300?
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    For some reason in my mind I recall the charger costing $295. I could probably look it up.


  147. 147
    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:27 pm)

    New cat gravatar, Tag?


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    James

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:28 pm)

    Valerie Boatman says Volt’s braking system is “alot faster than a conventional car’s braking system”, and “uses an accumulator”….

    Is this not used in any previous hybrid cars? Why haven’t I heard anything about Volt’s amazing braking abilities?

    RECHARGE!

    James


  149. 149
    carcus3

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:31 pm)

    DaveP: Do you drive a lot?

    12,000 to 16,000 per year. Some of it has to be in a tow/haul/off-road vehicle, so the pickup is a necessity. My “in-town” driving is typically close so a 100 mile-ish BEV would work that, although a plug in hybrid could take up some of the long distance driving from the pickup.

    I’m in Texas and I’ve seen our electric rates fluctuate from 18c to 11c in the past few years.

    I did a standing seam metal roof so if the panels go on it’ll probably be with “S5″ metal clamps.

    /another reason I’m reluctant on the solar is that I could see myself obsessing over the thing every day, logging results, etc….. I’ve probably got too many hobbies now.

    //it’s just amazing to me how many people I know that consider a $300 or $400 or $500 or even more monthly electric bill as “normal”


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:31 pm)

    Tagamet: Song was cool (sounded like it’d go good with tequila), but the car looked a bit egg shaped.

    The song is “Fast Moving Cars” by The Clarks. Wouldn’t mention it but they’re kinda/sorta from your area — Indiana University. IMO this is car has an appeal similar to the mini. Fiats are going to sell well here if they can get the price down to where younger people can afford them.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:33 pm)

    Michael: Speaking of cool things on youtube, check out the Volt brake testing.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPdmTqs_YQs&feature=player_embedded  

    Valerie sure doesn’t look like the person who would be doing that kind of work, lol.

    Hmm. Just like the Volt doesn’t look like the kind of car that would be performing that way. The video bolsters my thoughts from #144.


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    DonC

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:39 pm)

    James: Why haven’t I heard anything about Volt’s amazing braking abilities?

    Good point. It would be great if GM emphasized this advantage as part of the “cleaner, smoother, quieter, safer” marketing message.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:46 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): New cat gravatar, Tag?  

    Old one, actually (Levi the Wild One). I put this one back up yesterday after doing a little shuffling of gravitars. I’m switching back to the smiley cat (Jack) though. More laid back – kinda post-tequila. (g).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:50 pm)

    Tagamet: I’m switching back to the smiley cat though. More laid back. (g).

    This cat probably doesn’t like the Clarks.

    Don’t pet this Kitty!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0Ys0J4rvFQ


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:55 pm)

    You guys are my idols, man. Why? Well, I’m not in the $60,000 solar array tax bracket, so I have to be a lot more creative, and/or frugal with my sustainable energy experiments until $8,000 Bloomboxes for the home become a reality, Nanosolar finally begins selling their wares to homeowners and Home Depot at that promised Nirvana-pricepoint or other exciting energy savings options become available. I’m here in Washington State, which was on the cutting edge of recycling and conservation, so we’ve been doing lots of things here that say, East Coasters still kind of consider new and “green”.

    We live in earthquake territory so geo-thermal is out, and it’s also out of my budget arena. I do live at one end of 25 mile long Lake Washington though and we get some hefty winds here, and been thinking about that new HoneyWell wind turbine ( $4500 ) with it’s magnets in the rim not a gearset like conventional bladed ones. Good thing my old transplanted farmhouse is on the edge of the covenanted neighborhood – my neighbors can threaten to annex me in, but I’ll fight to the death as I don’t want anyone telling me I can’t have solar panels they don’t like to look at…etc. Dow Chemical just came out with it’s new line of thin film solar ( not blue silicon chip under glass ) roofing tiles. They look like regular composite roofing tiles and are the same size – and relatively inexpensive compared to conventional panels. All this stuff is coming online about the same time as Volt, if you believe the media – and I’ve been following Nano Solar for some time as it does, IMO, have the potential to become the next Microsoft when it goes public.

    For now, I can only dream of panels that have enough kwh to charge my Volt. I did go to Costco and buy those cheap Sunforce amorphous panels ( brown ) so I could educate myself and have some fun charging every small battery-powered object in my home – 88 degrees the other day and I was thrilled that my window fan ( 58W ) was running off my panel! Fun fact: Amorphous panels work better here because they’re more efficient under overcast skies! Now if I can only go to Costco with a home energy loan and buy 1000 60 Watt sets! ~ ………….

    Here in Washington we use predominately Hydropower and have been spoiled compared to the rest of the nation with cheap electricity. That is, until the state started selling all our power to California ( thanks guys! ) so you can run your AC, L ;) L We don’t have staggered metering here in my ‘burb neighborhood just north of Seattle, but it’s on the way – just don’t know how far into the future.

    For now, I charge my electric scooter ( Go-ped.com made in USA ), my electric outboard motor’s deep cycle battery ( Minn Kota.com ) and save my pennies and pay off my Prius so it’ll be a great trade in for the Volt if they ever sell and support them here.

    All-in-all I’d say it’s an exciting time to be alive as all this new technology is just around the bend. Problem is, it’s been “just around the bend” for about five to eight years now….. (sigh)

    ~ Patience is a virtue.

    RECHARGE!

    James

    P.S.- One “new” technology that may be of interest to the folks like me, who’se finances can’t handle rows of solar panels, but they want to be more frugal with power: There is a relatively new kind of small inverter known as a “grid tie inverter” that can be as small as 200-500 Watts, it has an outlet in it, so you can plug in your batteries from your small panels and plug it right into the wall and watch your meter go back ( when you shut off your main panel ) …prices are going down…get the clean sine wave ones….pretty cool…and cheap to experiment with!


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    Tagamet

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (7:57 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Michael: Speaking of cool things on youtube, check out the Volt brake testing.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPdmTqs_YQs&feature=player_embedded

    Valerie sure doesn’t look like the person who would be doing that kind of work, lol.

    Hmm. Just like the Volt doesn’t look like the kind of car that would be performing that way. The video bolsters my thoughts from #144.

    That’s a FIVE STAR video! Hey DonC, watch that around the 3/4th mark, where they are shooting over her shoulder and you can see the tree line. See how it remains level with the dash? She drives like the one loon in the NYC drive with me. I’ll bet she has to keep putting her earrings back in.
    Smoooooooth…
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:01 pm)

    James: I’m not in the $60,000 solar array tax bracket

    Your most bang for the buck is always conservation first — cars, houses, business, . . . whatever.

    I learned a lot off of this guy’s site (tons of info):
    http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:04 pm)

  159. 159
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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:04 pm)

    carcus3:
    This cat probably doesn’t like the Clarks.Don’t pet this Kitty!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0Ys0J4rvFQ  

    LOL, I played that and it woke up Levi, who was seriously upset! That cat in the film is like a laid back Levi. We have 3 vets in town and none of them will “see” Levi anymore! Glad he’s a healthy cat and has all his shots (and surgery). They say pets are a lot like their owners….. (Levi is Joy’s cat)(G)(not).
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Itching4it

     

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:12 pm)

    nuclearboy: It would also seem that the CARB rebate loss is overblown. They have 700 slots for all car makers. No big deal.  

    Obviously, how big a deal it is depends on where you live.

    Not that it matters much, since the Volt doesn’t qualify, but that often-quoted 700 vehicle figure isn’t really true. The fund currently has $3,498,306 on hand, and CARB has requested more in the 2010-2011 budget (not yet approved). Here is the real story:

    - BEVs with a UDDS (=LA4) range of 100 miles or more get $5000
    - BEVs with 75 miles <= UDDS < 100 miles get $4000
    - BEVs with 50 miles <= UDDS < 75 miles get $3000
    - PHEVs meeting Enhanced AT-PZEV get $3000 … So the Volt never had a chance at $5000.
    - Neighborhood Electric Vehicles get $1,500

    All of the above vehicles compete first-come-first-served for that pool of money. So, yes, if all that money went to Leafs, only the first 699 would get any. But since people are already buying NEVs and the occasional Tesla, somewhat fewer than 700 Leaf owners will get anything unless the budget comes through with more money.

    On the other hand, if the Volt had come out in October, and if it had met Enhanced AT-PZEV, and if 1100+ were sold in California before the Leaf became available, at least 1100 of those lucky owners could almost certainly have pocketed $3000. (That allows for up to $198K to disappear in the next 3 months. $225K has been spent or committed in the last 4 months.)

    If wishes were horses, then beggers would ride.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:17 pm)

    BillR: Well, apparently Jay Leno isn’t too impressed with the Chevy Volt.http://www.detnews.com/article/20100719/AUTO01/7190366/Chevy-Volt-doesn-t-get-Jay-Leno-charged-up#ixzz0u8GwHMue  

    Too bad I don’t watch Leno. Then I could STOP watching him. Harumph.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:23 pm)

    kdawg: Tagamet: What kind of cord would cost $300?
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet For some reason in my mind I recall the charger costing $295. I could probably look it up.

    I can’t find anything right now, but its more than just a cord. There’s lots of electronics in both units. Heck, that phaser looking handle is probably $50 alone.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:29 pm)

    kdawg:
    I can’t find anything right now, but its more than just a cord.There’s lots of electronics in both units.Heck, that phaser looking handle is probably $50 alone.  

    Naw, with the right connector (I forget the standard #s), I could probably buy the parts at Radio Shack (not that I would). Anyway, it comes with the 120 cord which looks very substantial. I doubt that it’ll need to be replaced.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:45 pm)

    BillR: Well, apparently Jay Leno isn’t too impressed with the Chevy Volt.
    http://www.detnews.com/article/20100719/AUTO01/7190366/Chevy-Volt-doesn-t-get-Jay-Leno-charged-up#ixzz0u8GwHMue

    I read this one earlier.. didn’t really know how to feel about it. Jay is more of a gearhead so I don’t think electric drive is his cup of tea (I know he has several electric vehicles, but I think at heart he likes cylinders). There’s a couple videos of him driving the electric motorcycle by Zero, and he is impressed, but you can tell he’d rather be on a Harley. There will be lots of speed freaks that will stick to ICE’s and their horsepower, but once battery capacities increase, and everyone can afford a car that has the power of a White Zombie like car, and they start beating Corvette’s off the line, the tide will change.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:48 pm)

    Tagamet:
    Naw, with the right connector (I forget the standard #s), I could probably buy the parts at Radio Shack (not that I would). Anyway, it comes with the 120 cord which looks very substantial. I doubt that it’ll need to be replaced.Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    I just re-read this and realize that I sound *serious* about being able to whip one of these cords up. I know I can’t (lol) There are a lot of safeguard electronics in there to shake hands with the vehicle before the electrons will flow.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (8:48 pm)

    Itching4it: Obviously, how big a deal it is depends on where you live.

    Not that it matters much, since the Volt doesn’t qualify, but that often-quoted 700 vehicle figure isn’t really true.

    Thanks for clarifying. I also agree that if I were in CA and looking to buy one very early, I would be disappointed.

    As an outsider to CA and the CARB states, this news means a more level playing field for the rest of us. And, in the grand scheme of things, a rebate on 1 or two thousands cars is not going to change the world one bit if they are already planning on selling a fixed number anyway that is much higher than the two thousand eligible for the rebate.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:07 pm)

    CARCUS3!
    *Now* see what you’ve done???? LOL. Played the clip again with the camera ready. Hope I can get it to post.

    LEVI_0827.jpg

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:09 pm)

    Tim in SC: Nissan offering only a 5 year, 60,000 battery warranty will lead all of those customers whom are riding the fence between the LEAF and the Volt towards GM.Some will buy a LEAF because it is an EV regardless of the warranty, and some will buy the Volt because it’s an EREV.I believe there are plenty of eco-minded, anti-foreign oil people who will be happy with either car, but the warranty disparity will ultimately bring a significant portion of that crowd over to GM.Agree?Disagree?  

    I agree with this BUT I think MSRP will come into play before the warranty coverage. The warranty will be the 3rd or 4th item on the list.

    The list will look something like this:

    1) Price
    2) Range
    2) Design
    3) Warranty
    4) Domestic vs. Foreign


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:13 pm)

    Dave G: I don’t think 220v charging saves that much, maybe 2-3 gallons per year for most people. Remember that the Volt’s gas engine has to run occasionally in order to stay healthy and to keep the gas from going stale. So if you always drive electric, the software will automatically turn on the engine every couple of months anyway.

    Dave, why do you insist that your view is the only view regarding fast charging.

    Let me say this one more time as clearly as I can.

    - 220V is already in nearly every home in the USA.

    - Some people even have 220V in their garages already. I do.

    - Allowing for flexibility to charge at a faster rate can only reduce your gas useage. I bet some people actually drive, charge, drive, charge, several times each day. So, for those people they could save significantly on gas useage. Even for someone who would rarely need faster charging, maybe they save a few gallons a year. Good for them

    - Should I make up some scenario where a person can save 1000 gal. per year with 220V charging? No. The fact is that some people will use it, some will not. For those who want to be able to charge up, go, charge, go, charge go, this will save them money AND reduce oil consumption/pollution.

    - Not allowing people to do something quicker and cheaper, while reducing our oil dependency and reducing pollution is a choice that I want, and I think you would find many others would desire. Even if you saved 2 gallons a year, that would be better than nothing, and I believe many would save a lot more.

    For the real greenies, I would bet that they will find a way to minimize the use of gas to the Nth degree. For them, they could probably use only the gas required for conditioning and de-stalement issues. Do you want to tell them, that you have decided this is unimportant and that they should just deal with the slower charge rates.

    Good Night.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:14 pm)

    kdawg:
    I read this one earlier.. didn’t really know how to feel about it.Jay is more of a gearhead so I don’t think electric drive is his cup of tea (I know he has several electric vehicles, but I think at heart he likes cylinders).There’s a couple videos of him driving the electric motorcycle by Zero, and he is impressed, but you can tell he’d rather be on a Harley.There will be lots of speed freaks that will stick to ICE’s and their horsepower, but once battery capacities increase, and everyone can afford a car that has the power of a White Zombie like car, and they start beating Corvette’s off the line, the tide will change.  

    Take a look at some of the videos on the net about “Killacycle”.
    e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHJNG2PngQ

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet


  171. 171
    JEC

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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:18 pm)

    kdawg:
    I read this one earlier.. didn’t really know how to feel about it.Jay is more of a gearhead so I don’t think electric drive is his cup of tea (I know he has several electric vehicles, but I think at heart he likes cylinders).There’s a couple videos of him driving the electric motorcycle by Zero, and he is impressed, but you can tell he’d rather be on a Harley.There will be lots of speed freaks that will stick to ICE’s and their horsepower, but once battery capacities increase, and everyone can afford a car that has the power of a White Zombie like car, and they start beating Corvette’s off the line, the tide will change.  

    Leno does his Ford EV demo test race for guests.

    Possibly he has his foot a little further in bed with Ford than GM. This is just an observation, since I am not a big Jay Leno follower, and have only occasionally watched his show (I am usually sleeping by 10:30.)


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:18 pm)

    Tagamet: *Now* see what you’ve done?

    Nope. Wouldn’t pet that kitty either.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:20 pm)

    kdawg: I read this one earlier.. didn’t really know how to feel about it. Jay is more of a gearhead so I don’t think electric drive is his cup of tea (I know he has several electric vehicles, but I think at heart he likes cylinders). There’s a couple videos of him driving the electric motorcycle by Zero, and he is impressed, but you can tell he’d rather be on a Harley. There will be lots of speed freaks that will stick to ICE’s and their horsepower, but once battery capacities increase, and everyone can afford a car that has the power of a White Zombie like car, and they start beating Corvette’s off the line, the tide will change.  (Quote)

    I’d like to think you’re right, but I think the mindset of the 20th century remains- loud noise -> more power. Maybe you saw the Volkswagon commercial with the Prius driver being picked on because his car didn’t go ‘Vroom Vroom’. I fear that only future generations will get over this decibel/testosterone relationship and chastise us for this absurd wastefulness.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:26 pm)

    JEC: Dave G: I don’t think 220v charging saves that much, maybe 2-3 gallons per year for most people. Remember that the Volt’s gas engine has to run occasionally in order to stay healthy and to keep the gas from going stale. So if you always drive electric, the software will automatically turn on the engine every couple of months anyway.

    Dave, why do you insist that your view is the only view regarding fast charging.

    Let me say this one more time as clearly as I can.

    - 220V is already in nearly every home in the USA.

    - Some people even have 220V in their garages already. I do.

    - Allowing for flexibility to charge at a faster rate can only reduce your gas useage. I bet some people actually drive, charge, drive, charge, several times each day. So, for those people they could save significantly on gas useage. Even for someone who would rarely need faster charging, maybe they save a few gallons a year. Good for them

    - Should I make up some scenario where a person can save 1000 gal. per year with 220V charging? No. The fact is that some people will use it, some will not. For those who want to be able to charge up, go, charge, go, charge go, this will save them money AND reduce oil consumption/pollution.

    - Not allowing people to do something quicker and cheaper, while reducing our oil dependency and reducing pollution is a choice that I want, and I think you would find many others would desire. Even if you saved 2 gallons a year, that would be better than nothing, and I believe many would save a lot more.

    For the real greenies, I would bet that they will find a way to minimize the use of gas to the Nth degree. For them, they could probably use only the gas required for conditioning and de-stalement issues. Do you want to tell them, that you have decided this is unimportant and that they should just deal with the slower charge rates.

    Good Night.

    Ok, edit timed out.

    Anyway, I wanted to bring back the issue with allowing the homeowner to charge at a faster rate than what the Volt would allow today. (I went through all the math and calculations in the last thread, and will not repeat again). This is based on using standard 120V/20 amp power sources, which people already have or can be easily added.

    The point is that you could likely reduce a full charge cycle by 2-4 hours, and not need to add anything or buy anything. GM would need to allow an option to set the charging rate. I know this is not something that can just be “coded” in now, but if GM gave it some thought, I am sure they could find a way to make it safe and “law suit free”.

    This can only make things better. Of course if you prefer to charge more slowly, go ahead. I want all the options I can get.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:36 pm)

    James (about your Honeywell Wind Turbine)

    I seriously looked at Wind Turbines for NY home (Have solar in FL). I have given up on “small wind” as they call it. Look at the wind curves and it just doesn’t pay. It seems like it should, but I am convinced it doesn’t. You really need to get that turbine way off the ground and away from ALL obstacles. Yeah, Jay Leno and Ed Begley jumped on the bandwagon, but I have decided to go with solar in NY as well. If you can put that turbine way up above the trees, go for it. If not, pursue your other options.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:36 pm)

    Tagamet: Hey DonC, watch that around the 3/4th mark, where they are shooting over her shoulder and you can see the tree line. See how it remains level with the dash? She drives like the one loon in the NYC drive with me.

    It is her job, eh? I did see that actually though it’s hard to know what it feels like. Here is one you might like. Go to 6:45 where they give their take on electric drives: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGriF1ReHZA&feature=related


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:40 pm)

    carcus3: Tagamet: *Now* see what you’ve done?

    Nope. Wouldn’t pet that kitty either.

    *Actually* he’s a sweetheart, really! He knows (and follows) 5 or 6 “commands” (read requests) and their American Sign language equivalents. “NO! is a really popular one (g).

    Be calm and be careful,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:48 pm)

    DonC: Tagamet: Hey DonC, watch that around the 3/4th mark, where they are shooting over her shoulder and you can see the tree line. See how it remains level with the dash? She drives like the one loon in the NYC drive with me.

    It is her job, eh? I did see that actually though it’s hard to know what it feels like. Here is one you might like. Go to 6:45 where they give their take on electric drives: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGriF1ReHZA&feature=related

    Thanks for the feedback. I was really re-experiencing the “feel” again. *Now* I realize that that would be hard for you. Sorry (g). SOON THOUGH!
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (9:48 pm)

    flmark: You really need to get that turbine way off the ground and away from ALL obstacles

    That was my initial impression from what little I looked into it. Those things have got to be pretty high to actually work. Which is going to mean real estate space for guy wires, expense of a tower, and when it needs maintenance either somebody’s going up, or the tower’s coming down.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:01 pm)

    DonC:
    It is her job, eh? I did see that actually though it’s hard to know what it feels like. Here is one you might like. Go to 6:45 where they give their take on electric drives:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGriF1ReHZA&feature=related  

    Don’t you just love the enthusiasm in Frank Weber’s voice? I’ve been trying to come up with a term of endearment for the Volt grin, but Webergasm sounds a little too edgy. I’ll work on it and get back to you.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:10 pm)

    kdawg:
    I know that the battery is covered w/both types of charging, but I want to know if the charging devices themselves are covered. I’ve had a lot of charging units go bad quickly. Also the cord will see the most physical wear & tear from constant plugging & unplugging. I dont want to have to buy a new one for $300 before the 8 years is up, so it would be nice if this was covered too.  

    I’m pretty sure the short answer will turn out to be no, not covered. But there is a lot more to be said here.

    First, these are not really “charging devices” or “charging units”. They are charging DOCKS. Just a word quibble? Hardly. If you have a laptop computer, you probably plug it in using a special cord that has a box in the middle. That is a charging device; it takes 110/120v AC and converts it to DC at whatever voltage the computer is designed to accept. Neither of the devices you are thinking of for the Volt do that. They take AC current from the wall and pass it into the car unchanged; still AC, still the same voltage. They are both essentially extension cords, but with some built in smarts to tell the car how fast it can charge and to check for a good connection with no shorts before they let any power flow.

    In all cases (for the Chevy Volt) the charger is inside the car, and integrated with the battery management system, so I certainly hope it is part of the battery system warranty. That should assuage your concerns about “charger failures”, though it doesn’t address physical wear and tear in the cords.

    I would be extremely surprised if the 120v charging cord supplied with the Volt was covered by the battery warranty. And yes, Tag, it could well cost somewhere around $300 because it does have electronics built into it. As for the 240v dock, there is no way GM is going to give one of those to every Volt customer, so it follows it will not be part of the warranty. The hardware itself seems to have a list price approaching $1000, and it requires a building permit, new wiring in the house, and installation by a professional electrician.

    Fortunately, you don’t really need 240v charging for a Volt. Over in Nissan land they strongly recommend that all Leaf drivers get one, because it takes nearly a full day to completely recharge the Leaf battery using 120v. Most potential Leafers are discovering their out-of-pocket expense for the charging dock will be $2,200 if not more (though there is a potential 50% tax credit a year later).


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:23 pm)

    JEC: Dave, why do you insist that your view is the only view regarding fast charging.
    Let me say this one more time as clearly as I can.
    - 220V is already in nearly every home in the USA.
    - Some people even have 220V in their garages already. I do.

    For the 220v charing option you will need:
    1) A dedicated 220v circuit with its own separate breaker
    2) A special wall box with the 220v charger cable hardwired in
    3) A licensed electrician to install the above

    Many local codes permit homeowners to run their own wires, up to a point. For example, you need a licensed electrician to run the wires from the poll into your breaker box. And because your car may be covered with rain or snow when you pull it into your garage, I’m pretty sure most local codes require a licensed electrician to install the 220v car charger circuit as well.

    Bottom line: $2000 for the electrician, plus whatever GM charges for the optional 220v cable.

    JEC: Allowing for flexibility to charge at a faster rate can only reduce your gas usage. I bet some people actually drive, charge, drive, charge, several times each day. So, for those people they could save significantly on gas usage. Even for someone who would rarely need faster charging, maybe they save a few gallons a year. Good for them

    How much gasoline will it save? Without any any kind of estimate, how can you justify the expense? My estimates show only 2-3 gallons per year for a typical driver.

    JEC: – Should I make up some scenario where a person can save 1000 gal. per year with 220V charging?

    I suggest you actually estimate your own personal driving pattern and gallons per year with and without 220v charging, and then make up your mind if it’s worth the expense and hassle of installing the 220v charger.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:25 pm)

    RDOCA in Post #24:
    Are you sure there is an off board charger?
    I was under the impression that the charger is onboard and it sensed the input either 120v or 240v and charged at that rate. I think the unit you see in the pics is only a wall mount as the code says it has to be hard wired and not a pulg in with 240v.  

    This issue came up on yesterday’s article. I checked out J1772 on Wikipedia on found out I was wrong; the charger for both 120V and 240V IS on-board. The Wall Mounted Unit is as you indicate necessary in meet local code to protect owners from the dangerous 240 connection.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:31 pm)

    James:
    Not sure if $300 will be the replacement price, but I wouldn’t doubt it since it is proprietary. Could be years before someone manufactures aftermarket EV cords.  

    Not proprietary; SAE J1772 standard. The same cord can be used to charge a Volt, a Leaf, a Ford Focus EV, a pluggable Prius, etc., etc.

    They’ll be available on ebay for less than half the price within a year.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:43 pm)

    Hi Lyle – any new updates from EEStor’s EESU technology? =) Thx


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:47 pm)

    Tagamet: Take a look at some of the videos on the net about “Killacycle”.
    e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHJNG2PngQ
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Yeah, the killacycle is nuts. I like these guys http://www.ridemission.com/.. now I just need to find $69,000 and buy one.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:48 pm)

    kdawg in Post #50:
    There is a portable 120V charge cord, and a wall mounted 240V charger unit.I want to know if both of these are covered by the 8year warranty.  

    The Wall Mounted Unit is not a charger, kdawg. It just supplies the 240 AC and has a cord with larger diameter wires to carry the higher voltage. See this Wikipedia link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J1772

    It shows that the cord to the Volt carries 240 volt AC. As you did, I once thought that the Wall Mounted Unit was a charger. NOT so; it’s just a unit to protect owner from high 240 Volt current.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:49 pm)

    Loboc: Dave G: “I don’t think 220v charging saves that much, maybe 2-3 gallons per year for most people.”

    But, we’re Americans. We want it faster, better, cheaper!

    Yes, I believe you’re correct. Many people just want the bigger number, regardless of what it really means.

    Loboc: Say you wake up at 6:00am and your smart phone says that there’s a fault with the charging last night. With 220v, you have a chance to get a full charge before work. With 110v, not so much.

    How often will this happen? How many gallons per year does this represent?

    With a pure BEV, an overnight charging fault can be a big issue. With the Volt, you’ll probably just use another 0.4 gallons of gas that day with 110v charging as opposed to 220v.

    An if GM holds to their promise of a FlexFuel 2012 model Volt, then we’re talking 0.07 gallons of gasoline. At what point do you say enough?

    We have bigger fish to fry. Gasoline only accounts for 44% of our total oil consumption. Batteries can’t replace the other 66%. Let’s not be penny wise and pound foolish.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:53 pm)

    Itching4it: I’m pretty sure the short answer will turn out to be no, not covered. But there is a lot more to be said here.
    First, these are not really “charging devices” or “charging units”. They are charging DOCKS. Just a word quibble? Hardly. If you have a laptop computer, you probably plug it in using a special cord that has a box in the middle. That is a charging device; it takes 110/120v AC and converts it to DC at whatever voltage the computer is designed to accept. Neither of the devices you are thinking of for the Volt do that. They take AC current from the wall and pass it into the car unchanged; still AC, still the same voltage. They are both essentially extension cords, but with some built in smarts to tell the car how fast it can charge and to check for a good connection with no shorts before they let any power flow.
    In all cases (for the Chevy Volt) the charger is inside the car, and integrated with the battery management system, so I certainly hope it is part of the battery system warranty. That should assuage your concerns about “charger failures”, though it doesn’t address physical wear and tear in the cords.
    I would be extremely surprised if the 120v charging cord supplied with the Volt was covered by the battery warranty. And yes, Tag, it could well cost somewhere around $300 because it does have electronics built into it. As for the 240v dock, there is no way GM is going to give one of those to every Volt customer, so it follows it will not be part of the warranty. The hardware itself seems to have a list price approaching $1000, and it requires a building permit, new wiring in the house, and installation by a professional electrician.
    Fortunately, you don’t really need 240v charging for a Volt. Over in Nissan land they strongly recommend that all Leaf drivers get one, because it takes nearly a full day to completely recharge the Leaf battery using 120v. Most potential Leafers are discovering their out-of-pocket expense for the charging dock will be $2,200 if not more (though there is a potential 50% tax credit a year later).

    Yeah, I know the DC converter is on the car, but didn’t know what else to call the electronic peripherals used to charge the car. My feeling is that the electronics will come w/the standard 1year warranty like most electronics, but what threw me for a loop was the statement “The warranty coverage includes all 161 components of the Volt’s battery, its charging system, thermal-management system and components of its electric drive”.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (10:57 pm)

    OT, but have any of you been watching this series on the Science Channel? Its a good watch.
    http://science.discovery.com/tv/powering-the-future/


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:02 pm)

    Dave G: An if GM holds to their promise of a FlexFuel 2012 model Volt, then we’re talking 0.07 gallons of gasoline. At what point do you say enough?

    We have bigger fish to fry. Gasoline only accounts for 44% of our total oil consumption. Batteries can’t replace the other 66%. Let’s not be penny wise and pound foolish.

    Yes, *BUT* it’s way too early to take our eyes off *this* prize! Let’s do everything we can as soon as we can, *but* we need to get the Volt’s wheels on the road!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:05 pm)

    kdawg: OT, but have any of you been watching this series on the Science Channel?Its a good watch.
    http://science.discovery.com/tv/powering-the-future/  

    Yes, I’ve been following it. Agreed, a good watch.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:16 pm)

    And just in case anyone here hasn’t seen these yet, you really get an inside look at the Volt build. It’s the NatGeo Channel’s Ultimate Factories/Man Made episode on the Volt. Make sure you watch all 4 videos.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxN3zHlSRaU&feature=fvw


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:24 pm)

    Rashiid Amul in Post #53: The same way Hyundai brought new customers into their showrooms (and Hyundai really did make complete junk at one time).With a warranty that made people feel comfortable, and by making cars there were/are very reliable.I use Hyundai as a comparison because they have a very good warranty.
    What is GM afraid of by doing the same thing?Sure they may not be in last place for sales, but they are not in first place either.If it wasn’t for the Volt, I wouldn’t be on this site, nor would I even consider for a fraction of a second to buy another GM product.
    I promised myself that my 1986 Pontiac Sunbird was the last GM car I would ever own as it was complete junk.Well, the Volt is coming and I am going to break my promise.And I am not at all gun shy about buying it.But ask me about another GM vehicle and I will say “no way”.Not happening.
    Why?Lack of confidence in the final product.This is why GM needs to change their warranty across the board.If they made superior products, then there shouldn’t be any issue with it.
    What are they telling everyone with the minimum warranty they are giving people?
    “We are a new company.We are now making very good products.No, we will not extend our warranty beyond 3yr/36,000 mile bumper to bumper.You will just have to trust us.”Ya right, good luck with that.  

    If we look at what products GM gives its longer and better warranties, they are all on products that they make; the battery, and the drive train. The rest of the vehicle involves components that come from outside sources and GM may not be able to control quality in the same way Hyundai does. If anyone has an knowledge on this factor please chime in. If this assumption is correct, GM will need to tighten up on its supplier contracts.

    I remember back in 1980, hearing that GM would have at least two, or sometimes more, suppliers of the same parts. They would even have teams that analyzed their suppliers operations that would show them how to cut costs and improve the products. To obtain their business, those suppliers had to agree to those terms. All that has changed since then for a number of different reasons; the primary one being that there just not many U.S. companies manufacturing parts for them. Control over foreign parts supply isn’t as easy. To remain cost competitive with foreign competition, that quality control suffered.

    This may be the reason that quality dropped. New GM will need to address this factor in order to deliver a higher quality product to market. Like I asked above: if anyone has knowledge about Hyundai parts supply please chime in.

    Please correct me if my assumptions are incorrect.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:27 pm)

    T. Boone Pinkens is on Larry King Live on CNN.

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:41 pm)

    Tagamet : Dave G: An if GM holds to their promise of a FlexFuel 2012 model Volt, then we’re talking 0.07 gallons of gasoline. At what point do you say enough?

    We have bigger fish to fry. Gasoline only accounts for 44% of our total oil consumption. Batteries can’t replace the other 66%. Let’s not be penny wise and pound foolish.

    Tagamet: Yes, *BUT* it’s way too early to take our eyes off *this* prize! Let’s do everything we can as soon as we can, *but* we need to get the Volt’s wheels on the road!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

    T. Boone Pickens would like our 18 wheels to be powers by natural gas which this country has plenty of. He says, we could cut our foreign petroleum use in half!

    That, together with adopting electric passenger vehicles would eliminate the use of a substantial amount of foreign oil. It sounds like a good plan to keep American hard earned dollars right here in the United States of America. Buy American fuel; Buy a Volt!

    Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:44 pm)

    JEC:
    This is based on using standard 120V/20 amp power sources, which people already have or can be easily added. The point is that you could likely reduce a full charge cycle by 2-4 hours, and not need to add anything or buy anything. GM would need to allow an option to set the charging rate. I know this is not something that can just be “coded” in now, but if GM gave it some thought, I am sure they could find a way to make it safe and “law suit free”.  

    Actually, you have it backwards. The J1772 standard being met by the Volt and virtually all new plug-in cars specifies that the charger inside the vehicle must limit its charging rate by what the charging dock (or more formally the EVSE) “tells” it can be used. The EVSE communicates with the vehicle through a signal wire which is part of that large plug you connect to the car.

    For 120v charging the EVSE is built into the charging cord, close to where it plugs into the wall socket. The problem is that, in the US, receptacles for 15A and 20A circuits are nearly identical, and easily confused by home handymen. The normal grounded 120v plug used (2 parallel blades and a round prong) fits both types of receptacles. Since the EVSE can’t trust which it is being connected to, it has to assume a 15A circuit, and that’s what it tells the charger inside the Volt.

    Now, in a perfect world, where only 20A circuits ever had 20A receptacles, a charging cord could be built with a special plug that fits a 20A receptacle but not a 15A receptacle, and the EVSE in that cord could tell the Volt to crank up the charging rate. It is quite possible that NO change would be needed in the Volt’s programming to support this.

    So what’s the difference between 15A and 20A plugs and receptacles? If you’ve looked closely at a 20A receptacle, one of the two slots is actually shaped like a T rotated 90 degrees. The 20A plug (which I don’t remember ever having seen) has the two blades at right angles to each other so that one fits into the rotated “leg” of the T.

    Bottom line: GM can’t do what you want, but charging cord manufacturers could, if they could get UL approval. But UL may turn them down, claiming they don’t trust home handymen to put the correct replacement receptacle on the correct circuit.


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:44 pm)

    carcus3: Your most bang for the buck is always conservation first — cars, houses, business, . . . whatever.I learned a lot off of this guy’s site (tons of info):http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/  (Quote)

    Cool site! Thanks. Around here it’s cut and conserve on a daily basis. I have a wife and kids who just can’t figure out that sunlight is cheaper than electric light – so I find myself hounding them to no avail….. One day, I believe they’ll wake up and figure it out…..Maybe if they were paying the bills…..
    Until then I have considered those motion switches that shut off the lights after someone leaves the room…

    I agree with you. Conservation is key – it’s like when people buy sports equipment like a bicycle, or a sports car and they have to have carbon fiber, titanium, aluminum sandwich or some sort of weight advantage – and someone always pipes up and states the obvious – because it’s the forest for the trees concept…the last thing we think about is often the easiest/cheapest thing: LOSE 20 – 50 pounds….ha! Save our hearts, bods and budgets – but wow, just think how much more speed or range you’ll get if you get the composite technowiz thingie!….haha. I love human nature stuff.

    RECHARGE!

    James


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    Jul 19th, 2010 (11:55 pm)

    Itching4it: Not proprietary; SAE J1772 standard. The same cord can be used to charge a Volt, a Leaf, a Ford Focus EV, a pluggable Prius, etc., etc.They’ll be available on ebay for less than half the price within a year.  (Quote)

    I suppose the proprietory part might just be the nice GM cord organizer/hanger unit, and the Volt-specific handle design. The interface, as you say will be standardized, I understand. What I mean is that if I own a Volt I will want a stock unit – especially at resale, looks alot better than some coiled up extension cord tossed in the back.

    RECHARGE!

    James


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    Jul 20th, 2010 (12:06 am)

    LRGVProVolt: T. Boone Pickens would like our 18 wheels to be powers by natural gas which this country has plenty of. He says, we could cut our foreign petroleum use in half!

    That doesn’t sound right.

    First, we currently import natural gas. So we don’t have plenty. Check http://www.energy.gov for details.

    Second, the Pickens plan I heard went as follows: Current electrical production is roughly 20% natural gas. If we replace that 20% with wind power, then we can use that natural gas to power trucks and cars.

    Sounds good, until you get into the details. Natural gas is used in electrical production because it’s the best at meeting variable spikes in demand. It’s really the only electrical fuel source that you can adjust quickly. By contrast, wind power is at best a baseline source of electricity, and at worst a variable source that you can’t count on.

    Since natural gas is pretty much required to meet variable spikes in demand, the reality is that windmills are more likely to replace coal for power production. The U.S. exports coal. We have more than enough.

    So in reality, the Pickens plan will replace some coal with wind, and we will likely trade oil imports for natural gas imports.

    And by the way, if you look at carbon emissions, natural gas is the worst alternative:
    carbon_emmissions%20.jpg


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    DonC

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (1:33 am)

    Dave G: So in reality, the Pickens plan will replace some coal with wind, and we will likely trade oil imports for natural gas imports.

    Dave my boy, you need to keep up with the times. Your information about the amount of natural gas reserves we have is dated. Here’s just a taste from the Financial Times:

    Over the past three years, American production has soared. This year, the US overtook Russia to become the world’s biggest gas producer for the first time in a decade. … The result is that the shipping terminals that the US built to receive liquid natural gas from overseas are now lying virtually empty.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d8c79266-6764-11df-a932-00144feab49a.html See also http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303491304575187880596301668.html (I have been studying the energy markets for 30 years, and I am convinced that shale gas will revolutionize the industry—and change the world—in the coming decades.)

    The US is the “Saudi Arabia of natural gas”. We’re swimming in the stuff. As for emissions, you’ve taken the worst possible example so your chart is biased and misleading. Since natural gas is essentially methane, it has a lot of CO2. But that’s it on the emission side. If you took all emissions rather than limit yourself to CO2 the Honda CNG Civic might produce fewer emissions than even the Tesla. Moreover, CNG produces about 30% less CO2 than gasoline. So even on the single parameter you’ve chosen CNG beats gas hands down — which is why the Civic CNG gets those little white stickers in CA. Moreover, the reality is that you’re not going to find any 18 wheelers powered by batteries into the foreseeable future.

    FWIW CNG is not only the best option for displacing oil in the near term, it’s the ONLY option.


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    Dave G

     

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (1:41 am)

    James: Until then I have considered those motion switches that shut off the lights after someone leaves the room…

    I’ve installed these in the kitchen, dining room, bath, and master bedroom.
    http://www.rabweb.com/product_detail.php?product=LOS1000W/120
    They’ve worked perfectly for years. Easy to install, pet friendly, available at many electrical supply stores.

    I also have some X-10 switches with motion sensors for the den, study, and basement. These are more versitile, but also slower to respond, and more complcated to set up. The best place I’ve found for X-10 and other home automation stuff is here:
    http://www.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/download/2010WorthingtonDealerCatalog.pdf


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    James

     

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (3:44 am)

    Dave G:
    I’ve installed these in the kitchen, dining room, bath, and master bedroom.
    http://www.rabweb.com/product_detail.php?product=LOS1000W/120
    They’ve worked perfectly for years.Easy to install, pet friendly, available at many electrical supply stores.I also have some X-10 switches with motion sensors for the den, study, and basement.These are more versitile, but also slower to respond, and more complcated to set up.The best place I’ve found for X-10 and other home automation stuff is here:
    http://www.worthingtondistribution.com/catalog/download/2010WorthingtonDealerCatalog.pdf  

    Hey thanks for the tips!

    RECHARGE!

    James


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    Read My Plate

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (5:01 am)

    Do Volt still need OIL ?

    Look for me in the passing lane and don’t blink.
    10x072098g235bsjfvve.jpg


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    Read My Plate Again

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (5:05 am)

    See me in the passing lane if you don’t blink.

    http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/07/10x072098g235bsjfvve.jpg
    [/img]


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    Read Your Plate

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (6:03 am)

    10×072098g235bsjfvve.jpg


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    Dave K.

     

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (6:20 am)

    Dr. Dennis, you don’t hear this often enough…

    Thanks for the updates and topics of interest that you post here on a regular basis. The multi year ride we are taking has gone from “want to believe” to “think we believe” to “we believe”.

    All that remains to be done on the Gen 1 Volt is the texturing. Local dealerships have been advised of the number of 2011 Volts they will be getting. In my area of 400,000 people the total is 20 Volts to be delivered. The local dealership waiting lists total about 45-50 names. I am sure this number will be closer to 100 by October.

    Thanks again.

    =D-Volt


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    Jul 20th, 2010 (7:26 am)

    nuclearboy: Lyle, you will have to work extra hard to bring us news of the Volt Version 2.0.

    We won’t need news. We’ll be on the highways making it.


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    Sam Y

     

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (8:58 am)

    Rashiid Amul: Sam Y

    Hi Rashiid, I was not offended; just a little surprised =) thanks for clarifying


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    Jerry Arzt

     

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    Jul 20th, 2010 (9:59 am)

    I’m very late to this conversaton, but I agree with all the people who say that the Volt should have a longer basic warranty. Premium imported cars all have at least a 4 year 50,000 mile warranty, and I think the Volt will be sold as a premium sedan with a good amount of “cache.” Also, the fact that the intention is to, “in the future” meet the California 10 year, 150,000 mile warranty standard is disturbing. So, I buy a Volt mid 2012 only to discover that had I waited, I would have obtained a much better warranty? Why shouldn’t I wait? And what will all those waiting customers do for early sales?


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    Constantin

     

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    Jul 21st, 2010 (10:16 am)

    Graphene batteries said to recharge in 10 minutes
    http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4204616/Graphene-Batteries-Recharge


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    Greg Hendrick

     

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    Jul 23rd, 2010 (10:29 am)

    This is a deal breaker for me. Without the $5000 tax break the car is not affordable. If the battery can’t be warrantied for 10 years it’s even LESS affordable.

    I live in California. I was hell bent on buying a Volt. Now… I am NOT going to buy a Volt until it meets the California AT-PZEV requirements.