There aren’t very many people who have taken the wheel of the future and have driven late model prototypes of both the Nissan LEAF and Chevrolet Volt. One who has is the well-known automotive journalist Phil LeBeau.
LeBeau just recently published his test drive experience of a Nissan LEAF prototype that he was able to drive fairly extensively for about two hours in the streets of California.
Overall “I was fairly impressed,” he said. He was pleasantly surprised about the car finding it peppy and zippy, easily maneuvered in an out of traffic and able to pass other cars with ease. He was only bothered by a tinny electric motor whine and the sound of wind noise. He said “the handling and acceleration of the LEAF will more than please the first wave of buyers.”
LeBeau was first to drive a 67% Volt build (this LEAF is 99%). Back then he described the car as “instant, smooth acceleration and great handling,” and like the LEAF said it wasn’t a sports car.
He was concerned at the time about the transition into generator mode which he described as “jarring”. GM has since smoothed out the transition in later refinements. Many have driven it, including myself, and found it imperceptible.
I asked LeBeau how he would compare the two. “I have yet to drive the Volt that we will see in showrooms,” he said. “I drove the most recent version,..which still was in the midst of having software tweaked.
He thus thought a comparison at this point wouldn’t be fair. “When I drive the production Volt in the next couple of months, then it will be time for a comparison,” he said.
In the live TV interview (below), he was forced to answer the question.
“They are pretty similar in terms of drive, but you have much more of a sedan feel with the Volt than you do with the LEAF,” he said.
In a new review by the New York Times, author Jerry Garrett actually wrote that the LEAF does 0 to 60 in 6 seconds in normal mode, and slower in eco mode.
This report, though exciting, isn’t accurate.
Nissan EV director Mark Perry told GM-Volt he was “not sure where he got 6 sec.”
Perry acknowledged Nissan has “not said” what the LEAF 0 to 60 time is because the car provides “plenty of off the line accel passing power and freeway merge.”
“Think Compact car not a GTR,” he added.
GM has said the Volt is expected to do 0 to 60 in under 9 seconds.
LEAF Test Drive:
VOLT Test Drive (OLD):
This entry was posted on Sunday, July 18th, 2010 at 7:00 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors, Test drive. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+17
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:18 am)I figure the Leaf and the Volt will have similar 0-60 times, around 8.5 to 8.7 seconds or thereabouts, with the Volt taking the Leaf by about 0.2 seconds. Neither will be neck snapping but the 0-30 accel should be better than average. The downside will probably be that going from 60 to 85 for passing will probably be slightly leisurely. But when you get right down to it, nowadays there aren’t a lot of 2 lane highways where kicking down for passing as quickly as possible is critical. I still wish the Volt had a few more foot pounds of torque and a bit more HP, but it will be an impressive car, regardless.
Judging from what I have seen of the Volt, the thing most people will be enthusiastic about (after the 40 miles all electric and drive all day after that, of course!) is the space when you fold the rear seats down. I haven’t owned a hatchback in years, but that space is going to be very useful. The Leaf looks to be very spacious as well.
The first couple of car magazine shootouts will be interesting indeed!
+20
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:38 am)Listening/watching both videos again (I’d seen both before), the one thing that stood out was when they asked how long the LEAF needed to recharge. Phil’s answer was that a “fast charge to 80%” takes 30 minutes —which made the female interviewer laugh like she thought 30 min was ludicrous. And when any potential LEAF buyer pursues this question further and finds a normal full charge takes much longer than 30min, recalling that the Volt needs NO time to stop for recharging to keep to a trip schedule, I expect many LEAF (and other BEV) prospects will immediately consider the LEAF & other BEVs non-starters compared to a Volt. I sure do!
+9
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:43 am)Hope Nissan does well with the Leaf. Looks like they are well positioned for strong sales in California. Quick charge to 80% in 1/2 hour is very good news for providers of electricity.
The car buying public needs more details on the Volt.
=D-Volt
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:50 am)Hey NASA Man. Speaking of charging, If you plug the Volt’s 120v power cord into a 240v source (accidently of course using an adapter) what will happen? I’m pretty sure it is a switchmode charger like on my laptop.
+11
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:55 am)Until I can charge my batteries at the number of locations and in the time it takes me to fill a gas tank, I have no interest in a Leaf or any other all-electric car.
Based on my driving patterns, I calculate my gas mileage with a VOLT to be in the 300 mpg range, so I will use far less gas than I do now. But owning a Leaf means I have to plan around a limited range and worry that I might have some unexpected day that is beyond that range.
So this is an apples and oranges comparison for me. But it is magnanamous of LeBeau to defer his comparisons until he can drive production models of both.
And I am not interested in what the trolls will say about how I should lower my standards or change my lifestyle to accomodate their expectations or agenda.
Voltech is the real solution for me.
GO VOLT!
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:56 am)Yep, the Volt’s charger is a switching mode AC-DC converter that, like laptops & many other devices today, automatically adjusts to either 120 or 240V, 50 or 60Hz, so it works perfectly worldwide.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:57 am)Not sure if “sedan feel” is supposed to be a good thing or a bad thing. It could mean it is “quiet, softer riding, and comfortable.” That would be good for the Volt.
+15
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:01 am)I’m curious of how both of these cars will be referred to in the progression of the automobile.
They will always be spoken of together as the first cars to get electric power right. The details that we are posting and counter posting about are not insignificant but not really as important as the mere existence of these cars on an assembly line.
Good luck to both car companies. Every engineer that has stayed faithful to their projects deserves to get a well earned pat on the back and has certainly earned my respect.
+36
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:02 am)I’ve driven both cars in the “production ready” version; I expect they probably have similar 0-60 times too, but the Volt is a bit quicker at the lower end. Not sure where Phil got the “tinny” motor sound though; unless it happens at very high speeds (I probably didn’t exceed 50 in 9am LA traffic), I think it must be in his head. The Leaf motor is quieter than several of the other EVs of this new generation that I’ve driven; it’s audible, but not by much, esp at city speeds.
+7
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:09 am)Always great to hear from you, Chelsea! BTW, I’m looking forward to your comments about the LEAF that you had for something like a day, if I’m right, particularly now that you’ve just been “recalibrated” on an EV-1 thanks to the Green Drive Expo 2010, right?
How about sharing an abstract of your recent LEAF driving experience with us here?
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:12 am)Can you give more comparison details? And which did you like better?
+4
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:14 am)Should be interesting in the next couple months, as more and more drivers get to experience driving the Volt and Leaf.
I am really wondering about the Leafs battery, more and more. To me this would be the single most concerning issue, since we know that Nissan is really “struggling” to determine how to warranty the battery. This tells me they are either unsure, or they realize that setting the warranty to high could have large financial impact in the near future (5-10 years).
While I expect the battery technology and chemistry to eventually make battery management much less complex and less expensive, today, the Volt has a definite lead in this arena.
I am feeling it now…the EV revolution is upon us. How long have we heard that EV’s were right around the corner? Well now, that corner is so close, you can almost feel the electric corona making your hair stand on end.
Its a good day to be an EV enthusiast!
+6
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:15 am)I missed a lot this week while I was on vacation……
I still believe that the Leaf and the Volt will both be successful, but to different markets. The leaf will be a great second car for commuting. The Volt can and will be a great replacement of any existing car.
I guess time will tell………….
NPNS
+3
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:23 am)I think it depends on ones goals. The other day I started doing some analysis to try to figure out which makes more sense for me: Volt or Leaf + something else. The first big surprise for me is that although either car (Volt or Leaf) will easily deliver 80%+ of my driving days all electric, neither will do much more than 60% of my annual milage “out of the box”, which means my overall fuel savings is much lower than I would hope.
For me almost 45% of my yearly driving is taken up by about 18 (typically) different “trips” with distances from 175 to 1100 miles round trip. (The 175 is to a ski resort so the Leaf likely can’t make that due to the hill climb and cold temps even if we did have charging all day at the top at the resort).
With some fast charging (scheduled for installation in Washington and Oregon) the Leaf can pick up all but the ski trips and the 1100 mile round trip to western Montana, getting to 82% of my typical yearly driving, but a number of those trips would be significantly inconvenienced requiring at least two 30 minute stops for fast charging.
The Volt will get 60% electric miles, 40% gas — that is taking into account the first 40 miles of a trip as electric (and the first 40 of the return trip when overnighting away from home).
Surprising to me that 18 driving days (5%) is over 40% of my miles. If other people have similar numbers the Volt and Leaf will do less to reduce oil usage than we all hope and/or BEVs with larger packs are going to be more important to really getting off oil.
The Tesla model of being able to buy a Model S w/ a 160 mile pack and then rent the 300 mile pack for trips may be the way to go. If that 300 mile pack can do 240 highway miles there is probably only about one trip a year I do that would have to be by gas car and/or with stopping for a charge en route. Charge times at home *really* don’t matter. Plug it in and forget about it.
I think people will be surprised by how often any plug-in car is “full” if they plug in between errands during the day (of course that may not be the best way to use the car in terms of impact on the utility companies).
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:23 am)I have heard several people perform a similiar gas useage calculation.
The one unknown, would be the use of the engine during temperature extremes. When driven in very cold weather, the engine will run for some time to condition the battery. GM has never said how long the engine stays on, based upon temperature. The opposite, hot extreme would be the other end of the spectrum.
If you live in a more mild climate, then your calculations are probably fair. Otherwise, you may not be including all the other factors. Of course, since we do not have the spec’s on how the Volt will perform the thermal management, it would still be a shot in the dark.
Just curious..
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:24 am)The Major Concerns for the Leaf: battery durability, range variability and how many cupholders.
I’m just not going to jump on a first generation product (Volt or Leaf). I’ll let other people deal with the bugs (if there are any). In return, I’ll let you guys be the cool ones who had it first. I’ll give you trailblazers the thumbs up every time I see you on the road.
The nice thing is that we now have these choices for transportation.
+8
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:25 am)Hi Chels. Good to see everyone on this morning. I agree that both cars will be remembered for bringing back the electric car. I will enjoy a Volt and a pure EV as my 2 family cars. The Volt of course for the option of longer trips. I won’t have to ship my volt when I move from Florida to Arizona. I can drive it. I have been driving my Honda Insight since August 2006 and am fully convinced that 60 MPG I am getting is just not good enough. It is quite a change from the 16MPG Jeep Cherokee that I drove before it.
Happy Volt or Nissan Leaf for any who are smart enough to choose them.
Take Care,
TED
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:31 am)I would think that the other end of the plug would be like a regular 110. Plugs from a dryers and stoves are made different and you couldn’t accindentally plug the cable that GM offers with the Volt into to a 240 line. That why GM keeps refering to a “Home Fast Charge” on 240. Otherwise you plug it in any 110 you can find, just like during the freedom ride when they plug the VOLT in a Motel room plug outlet. SIDE NOTE: I just reread your comment, you did say an adapter, but just the same, running a 240 line on 110 cable will probably overheat the wire, I would think it would be unsafe to try.
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:35 am)Jim I said:
Volt and Leaf will have different markets.
Yes, based on yesterday’s post, the two markets will be CARB and non-CARB states.
Tell CARB states not to worry, the non CARB states will be happy to share the clean air created by Volt use. I’ve heard of no bans on second hand air… at least not yet…
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:39 am)The Volt or the Leaf would work for me. I just prefer the Volt.
+3
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:44 am)Yes, I agree, +1.
The Volt’s liquid cooling and heating system for the battery pack will definitely make it last longer. In addition, GM has added a 30% margin just for battery aging. That’s on top of the 20% margin for charge sustaining. If Nissan had a similar 30% battery margin for aging, their pack would be 29 kWh.
But since the Leaf has come out at a low price, GM is considering a cheaper pack design and lower battery warranty for the next generation Volt. I think this is a bad move. People expect cars to last longer than 5 years. If you don’t keep a car that long, then you’ll sell to someone else who will. If the car only lasts 5 years, the resale value will go down the toilet. Either way, a battery that only lasts 5 years will dramatically increase the total cost of ownership.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:49 am)Some points:
- both cars are EV’s, have a lot in common
- the “whine” might be what I observed in a Leaf video some time ago.
- there is probably a large pool of early adopters for both, with potential overlap to some degree.
- the progress in the market will be interesting
In the grand scheme of things it should not be an either/or thing, but in the early days for individual users it WILL be.
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:56 am)That is correct sir (although GM doesnt recommend the use of any “adapters”and prefers a 240V appliance that includes correct larger cable gage as 240V charging is regulated by the car at 3.3kW vs. 1.2kW for the “stock” cable)
HTH
WopOnTour
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:01 am)Could not own a Leaf based on Ugliness alone, downright hideous looking car.
DOnt care if it gets 500 MPC and is Free.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:03 am)I wish that they would also discern between a 15 amp and 20 amp connection. 20 amp outlets use a different plug, that allows you to plug in either the “standard” 15 amp cord, or a 20 amp cord (has the extra t-slot). So, if I plug in my car to a 115 outlet the Volt limits charge current based on the lower, 15 amp rating.
I think the Volt draws about 10 amps at 115V (forget, but I know it was quite a bit less then rated), which gives a charge rate of 115*10 = 1.15 kW-hr, which means about 8/1.15 = 6.9 hrs. Now, if they would let me charge at, say 15 amps on a 20 amp outlet, the time decreases to about (1.725 kW-hr, 8/1.725 = 4.6 hrs!).
So, how would the Volt or any other EV know if it was a 20 amp or 15 amp service? I guess today it cannot discern this, but maybe the software could allow the owners to set this charge current (I know, now you open yourself to lawsuits for the idiot who knows not what they are doing). Maybe, GM/others could provide some type of certification class, that qualifies you to set the charging current, and you sign off on knowing what you are doing.
\just Sunday ramblings….
-1
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:10 am)The Volt has two types of charging cables:
1) A 110v cable with a standard plug that fits in any regular home wall outlet. I’ve heard the Volt comes with two of these as standard equipment (one for home, and another that stays in your trunk for charging away from home). Charging time – 8 hours.
2) An optional 220 volt charging cable with no plug, just bare wires that attach in a wall box of your garage. This requires an electrician to install, probably due the the special high current ground fault isolation circuitry involved. Probably costs around $2000 to install. And the cable probably costs several hundred dollars as well. Charging time – 3 hours.
Many early adopters have expressed interest in the 220v option, but I believe few will actually benefit much from this. The amount of extra gasoline saved with 220v charging will be minimal, probably only 2-3 gallons per year for most people.
Like solar roofs on cars, I think buyers will eventually recognize Volt 220v charging for what it is – another expensive option that sounds great, but is actually fairly useless in real life.
-1
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:19 am)Your calculations for charging time are correct, but why not also calculate these figures?
1) How many gallons per year you would save with faster charging times?
2) How much it would cost for a dedicated circuit to enable faster charging times?
I believe that when you see the actual bang-for-buck figures, you’ll stick with the standard charging times.
+7
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:24 am)I’m wondering what everyone is driving that they want more than the 150 hp or so that’s in the Volt. My small AWD SUV is only 173hp ICE and that’s adequate. 150 ICE in a small 4 cylinder car seems reasonable. The electric motor torque curve is better. So much better that most designers don’t see a need for multiple gear transmissions. Is everyone expecting to drive a muscle car with 100+ mpg? Are you driving or racing?
+10
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:26 am)LOL
Under those conditions, I’d probably tolerate the ugly. After all, I’m not really looking at it while driving.
+3
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:29 am)What are you driving now and what is the MPG? The Volt will meet all your needs, and eliminate 60% of your annual fuel use. For the remaining 40% (in miles), you will average 40-50 MPG, so what does that equal in equivalent MPG? Take the total miles you drive annually, and divide by the gallons you used driving the 40% distance. I wager it is well above 100 MPG, which is probably 5 times better than the MPG of your current vehicle. That is a significant improvement.
Getting off oil is a journey. All journeys require time, you can’t reach your destination instantly. You must decide to make the trip, plan your route, and then pass milestones. The Volt is the first milestone. We are well on our way, but we aren’t there yet.
-2
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:04 am)Cap’n Jack
Are you still around? I’m thinking some folks with a 50-70 mile commute might try a Leaf and recharge it at work with a 1000W Honda generator running on a bottle of propane(if they have no access to electricity,a likely problem). That gets you some range extension without a trailer. … I bet they do….
+6
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:08 am)Everyone’s chasing a red herring with all this concern over the LEAF. There’s another EV debuting close on its heels – the Ford Focus EV has thus far been very much under the media radar, but IMO will threaten Volt sales more than the LEAF ever will. It is projected to be priced thousands of dollars less than the LEAF, quite likely under $30K MSRP. Unlike the dowdy, catfish-faced LEAF, the Focus’s styling is cutting edge handsome. I’d like to see more attention given to it, because it’s got the goods according to those who have tested Ford’s mule. Here’s a link to a recent review:
http://www.plugincars.com/ford-focus-electric/review
+11
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:22 am)Interesting that the two commentators on the Leaf video were disparaging the quick charge time on the Leaf, which is actually pretty good and you don’t need to be around for (spilling fuel, toxic chemicals, fumes, etc.).
There are many cosmetic differences between the two (of which the Volt comes out on top) but the real difference is how much behavior needs to be changed on the part of the driver. The Volt is minimal (plug in at night but otherwise refuel on the go as needed) while the Leaf can be greater (plug in after you burn through less than ~100 miles). Having said that… 100 miles is really quite good and will meet a vast majority of the average persons driving needs… we Americans just don’t like being given limits
.
The Leaf is cheaper and will likely get the bonus of qualifying for the California $5000 tax credit for a zero emission vehicle which will make the cost significantly lower than the Volt. The Volt still gets the $7,500 federal credit but has a higher starting price.
Having driven the Volt, I know it has great handling, even at low speeds and it is completely silent. A real joy to drive. Any high pitch whine would drive me nuts after a while and I’m willing to pay more to have that silence. I hope that both cars are a success and I plan to wave to ALL electric car drivers when I go past.
First on the waiting list in the Bay Area (Redwood City).
Harrier1970
+4
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:23 am)Just my comparison and the empirical relationship to Leaf and VOLT.
Just took our periodic 254 mile trip yesterday to the lake. It is just over a 4 hour trip with the bathroom break.
The Explorer V-8 makes it will fuel to spare. (19-21 MPG)
The Prius we have makes the trip will fuel to spare. (45-47 MPG)
I would expect my future VOLT to make it will fuel to spare …. ( ??? )
But a Leaf will not or if I could get charges the trip would go from 4 hours to over 6 hours assuming 2 probably 3 – 80% charges for the leaf. ( ??? Miles per charge )
The 4 hours is based on an average of 65 MPH ( expressway and some 55 MPH 2 lanes)
This trip alone is a powerful incentive for a VOLT. The bulk of my driving is < 40 miles/day with occasional long trips to see country.
The Prius has done it in the past but the VOLT appears to be the next generation car the make driving even more interesting.
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:44 am)I note that Nasaman answered your question on the charger for the Volt in quick order under post #6. You can go to this link on GM-Volt.com to get more info:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
I believe the 120 volt charger is under the hood while the 240 volt charger is mounted on the wall of your garage as you can see at the link. As Nasaman said the Volt has automatic switching to identify which is being used to route the electricity through the appropriate circuitry.
There are other links on GM-Volt.com that depict the location of parts. One of them shows where the 120 volt charger is; sorry but I couldn’t find the link to post here.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:00 am)When Phil LeBeau was asked if he had a preference over the Leaf or the Volt, he mentioned to factors; 1) that the Volt has a sedan feel, and 2) that the Volt has the ICE for range extension. I would think that is a positive statement with regard to the sedan feel. Sedan feel would be the difference in size and shape that gives the Volt a smoother road feel. JMHO. The Volt is a heavier vehicle.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
<b
+6
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:08 am)Acceleration times will be unimportant as far as buying decisions go. The VOLT is a larger, better equipped car which might make it a half second slower 0-60. I would still take the VOLT because for $40,000 — I’d better be more comfortable and have every creature comfort available.
What is going to surprise many first time VOLT or LEAF customers is that these cars are NOT ‘economy cars’ in the traditional sense. (low price + high mpg’s)… I ran into this problem with one of my top salespeople who said: “the customer can buy 2 nicely equipped Cruze models for the price of 1 VOLT.”
I am sure the Nissan sales guys are asking the same question. You can get 2 Nissan Cube models for the price of 1 LEAF.
Customers outside of this forum may be a little stunned when they learn this. And this is why I believe the VOLT will do far better, since, by all accounts posted here, it can easily compete with other small luxury cars in the $40k range. The LEAF can’t.
+4
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:24 am)Here in Seattle, the LEAF will be available at the outset. I can see a pattern developing even amongst the hordes of Prius and Civic Hybrid owners here – that as LEAFs begin popping up on I-405 and I-5 during the morning commute, opinions will be sharply divided. Half of the hybrid drivers consider that they’re “doing enough” of their part to save the environment and will not be bothered by the inconvenience of plugging in and/or having the hassle of calculating their range and distance/charging time the nearest charging station presents. The other half, however, are challenged by LEAF and will see it as an obtainable goal of non-oil dependence and total green stardom – a kind of one-upmanship of green.
I know when we bought our Prius, we got a sexy red job, with top line spoiler and wheels, and suddenly the other Prius owners would stop or slow down and stare – silly as it is, and eventually we saw an exact copy purchased by a neighbor a few doors down! The eco keep up with the Joneses, or “me too” thinking will take root with LEAF, in my opinion.
People’s buying patterns are definately hard to pin down, but I think it’s fairly safe to say LEAF owners will get some eco angst or eco envy churning in some fairly large markets.
Volt needs a release in higher numbers to gain such market momentum.
RECHARGE!
James
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:26 am)That is an excellent point. I’m guessing sales of the Volt will be much stronger in Europe, where consumers are more use to paying high prices for medium size vehicles due to the high price of gasoline.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:27 am)Leaf = $25,000 or so.
Prius = $25,000 or so.
Volt = Leaf + Prius in one car for $40,000 or so.
I hope GM makes it a better deal, but as it stands, it’s not too bad a deal.
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:28 am)Then maybe you should hold out for a 200 mile BEV in 2015 and let folks that can charge at work or otherwise use more AER buy these early cars.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:29 am)It seems that Phil was pressed for an answer on which car was better, and since he couldn’t give a solid opinion because he’s driven each several months apart at different levels of build calibration, he had to save face and threw out some generic meaningless comparison that doesn’t really mean anything. Geez, all sedans “feel” different. Perhaps he liked the Volt better but didn’t want to say it in front of a Nissan Leaf on national TV because it would anger Nissan and pull TV ad revenue from NBC?
+3
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:31 am)So, 40K Leafs released into the US over two years will create the market momentum but 40K volts will not. Why would this be? They are both planning the same number of cars in the US.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:42 am)You and the others are among the 12% of the driving population that travel over 40 miles per day. 78% of the driving population will be able to stop using gasoline (granted a very small amount of gas will be in the tank of the Volt) and the Leaf will increase the number who don’t use very much gas because it can go an estimated 100 miles on a charge. Once the EV vehicle is on the road in significant numbers, the impact on reduction of petroleum usage will be seen as significant.
I will be monitoring the statistics to see how the electric vehicle diminishes the use of petroleum following the roll-out of the Leaf and the Volt. Although the recent trends in petroleum show a decline, we are still using about $25 billion per month. Any way to decrease that usage will help our economy recover. 500,000 electric vehicles by 2015 will be significant and will save this country $billions! We are only talking about two EV manufacturers here at this time. But there will be others that will be on the market and also making a dent in petroleum usage.
At the beginning, it will be a slow process and this important. The EV should be phased in over time so that it is not disruptive to the petroleum industry in the U.S. The products produced from petroleum are important to our way of life; so too it is important to protect the U.S. oil industry.
I am excited that the advent of the EV in mass production will impact our planet in many positive ways. This industry will improve conditions on both ends of the scale. One: It will diminish the use of carbon based fuel that will effect the atmosphere by diminishing pollutants and global warming. And second: it will forge this nation ahead on a coarse which will generate many new businesses in the so-called green sector. The demand for electricity will light the creative genius of American inventors and entrepreneurs will find numerous outlet for investment. New industries will be created to file the demand for products in the automotive industry, utility companies demand for solar and wind power. We will see home owners generating their own electricity by means of solar panels and wind mills. And one of the most exciting developments is the advent of nuclear fusion power plants that do not generate any nuclear grade materials that can be used by terrorists, is a-neutronic (non-radioactive). Recent developments in cold fusion indicate that our nuclear wastes can be changed to stable materials that greatly reduce or eliminate radio-activity. There is hope for the future.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:44 am)GM’s first post WWII EV.
4WD and included wireless connectivity and NAV, but a little more expensive than Volt.
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:51 am)The LEAF’s window of success stands to be shortlived. Besides the Volt at the top end, Mitsubishi and Ford will have their less expensive EV’s available soon after the LEAF is launched. The LEAF is going end up being too expensive to compete with the Mitsu & Ford, and too limited in range and warranty protection to compete with the Volt.
Nissan has painted themselves into a corner by pricing the LEAF as high as it is, and doing so before they found out about what kind of battery warranty GM was to give the Volt. They’re caught between a rock and a hard spot.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:58 am)Where in the world did you get that piece of information? GM said it will likely warranty the battery 10/150 in the future rather than the 8/100 it has recently stated will be the battery warranty for GEN I.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:02 pm)Yes, the Volt is a very nice looking car!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-19
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:03 pm)(click to show comment)
-14
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:04 pm)(click to show comment)
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:07 pm)115 volt outlet?????? That’s new to me.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:39 pm)The higher voltage charger is 240 volts and the lower, 120 volts. Go to this link to get your facts straight:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/
Also, you should look at the expanded website:
http://www.theevproject.com/
The website has added the additional cities that involve the Chevy Volt beyond what was initially created to show the Nissan roll-out to five locations.
Quite a number of 240 volt chargers will be installed in 16 major cities. This website was initially set up to feature the DOE grants given to cities who partnered with Nissan to bring the Leaf to their communities. But the site also includes data on charging the Volt.
There is a web portal demonstration that shows how data on usage is gathered. Although the demonstration features the Nissan Leaf, the web portal will no doubt interface to the Volt; it will probably connect into OnStar and give the same features. Since OnStar gives you mapping features, you will be able to locate charging stations just like the Leaf.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Surprise, even I can find some ground for the Nissan Leaf. Although I prefer the Volt, Nissan’s Leaf is making an important impact on the viability of the electric vehicle.
-3
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:39 pm)OT
Regenerative braking ….
A. Increases efficiency
B. Decreases efficiency
C. Has no effect
uhhhhh ohhhhhh!
More Regenerative Braking Results. It gets worse…
http://jackrickard.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-regenerative-braking-results-it.html
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:40 pm)Wow, the first ever SUV! And as history will attest, its halo effect opened up a huge SUV market. As I understand it, the vehicle was for off-roading only in that particular vacation spot — BUT NO OFF-ROAD RESTRICTIONS! Also, had special features so you could really kick up the dust and never had to change filters.
Great post Eco-Turbo (ET)!! SUV = Space Utility Vehicle.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:42 pm)I mentioned yesterday the Design news cover story featuring LEAF. (Nisson bets on the LEAF)
LEAF charge time: 110 VAC/16-18 hrs; 220 VAC/8 hrs; 440 VAC/25 min.
VOLT charge time: 110 VAC/10 hrs.; 220 VAC/4 hrs. Source: http://earth2tech.com/2010/06/08/battle-of-the-batteries-comparing-electric-car-range-charge-times/
Be mindful of battery size: LEAF = 24 kWh; Ford Focus EV = 23 kWh; VOLT = 16 kWh
VOLT, a small full size sedan flat-out comparable to any ICE in its class; LEAF is a small compact. In VOLT with its 8-year/100,000 battery warranty you get a car that’ll have great resale value 3-5 years.
If you’re not convinced yet, consider this…LEAF range published show a dramatic drop in range vs. speed. (100+ at 38 mph; 60 at 60 mph)
Whereas VOLT like the bunny keeps going and going and going… (if you forget or can’t charge – no problem) And the VOLT and LEAF are in the low $30k’s.
Unless LEAF was driven exceptionally slow on I-80, it would barely if at all make the 75 mile trip SF to Sacramento. (On I-80 at 70 mph being too slow for #1 lane)
Now why, outside of a few % of buyers, buy a LEAF? (Ford FOCUS EV is more similar to LEAF than VOLT)
+12
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:49 pm)Once upon a time this blog was about reducing oil use. Now it is like “if BEV doesn’t work for me, it shouldn’t for anyone else”. Sigh.
Leaf isn’t for everyone – just for the 60 Million or so multi-car households who have a garage.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:51 pm)Plus registration, insurance, and is some states taxes on two vehicles instead of one.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:53 pm)Welcome and ditto to the request for your feedback comparing these two great vehicles (and others for that matter)! People with an actual history of hands-on experience with EV/EREV’s are about as common as unicorns!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:53 pm)I thought cables/cords are rated for amps not watts or volts. The plug is another matter, I believe.
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:56 pm)
Jul 18th, 2010 (12:58 pm)That’s a profoundly interesting and important analysis! Maybe not so surprising (that regen reduces efficiency) if you think about it. Specifically, regen during coasting can be problematic (as opposed to regen braking, which only performs regen when you touch the brake pedal), because it may cause the driver to “oscillate” in speed, constantly speeding up, then slowing down due to the regen drag, then speeding back up, etc. Since there is energy absorbing resistance in all circuits (and internal resistance in the batteries, a key factor), a “heat tax” is paid whenever juice is flowing out of the battery, or conversely INTO the battery. So it is better to obey Newton, and allow a body in motion to remain in motion if it’s motion that you want!
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:03 pm)Watching the NBC video was interesting. The report was done a year ago, and they said by 2015 there would be 50,000 electric cars sold every year. Now a year later, the estimate number for 2015 has skyrocketed to 500,000. Why the jump? This is just an estimate! Think what might happen in the real world. I think that the number be much greater and will explode. 10,000 volts will not be enough for the first year, and I’d be first in line to get one, if they will allow out-of state-users for the first markets. This market will explode exponentially not linearly, and it could very well be the key to getting our economy back in order. Buy American Cars, Electricity, Etc…..
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:08 pm)It’s my understanding that they will, in fact, allow out-if-state buyers. Service should be available locally, even in non-release states.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNSBe well and believe,
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:09 pm)The laughing female anchor represents alot of people who have their thinking stuck in gas station mode. To them, having a vehicle, regardless of what powers it; means you HAVE to go to some station on some streetcorner somewhere in public to have it fueled. They can’t yet wrap their minds around the idea of, in the case of the leaf, having a full day’s range from an overnight charge and then using it.
The leaf might be tough to even overnight charge though. A volt is 8 hours at 120 volts and 3 hours on 240. Isn’t a leaf something like 8-10 hours on 240 and like 20 something on 120?
If you get home late one night at midnight and have to get up for work at 6, you won’t even have enough time to fully charge.
With the volt you can go your 40 miles during the day, come home at 5 and plug it in, and still have a full 40 AER again by 8 pm or so if you want to go out.
Yeah the volt still has a tail pipe, who cares???? so does a prius, and if you go up to a prius owner with your nose in the air and say HA! 50 mpg? PFFF! YOU still have a tailpipe, you’re part of the problem!!! Then you’ll just look like a tool
Go volt
-2
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:11 pm)The only things I can think of for buying a LEAF -
somebody who….
ø has ADHD and can’t wait a few months for a less expensive and better looking Focus EV
ø continues to hate GM for killing the EV-1
ø still thinks Japanese cars are superior to Detroit iron
ø had to buy the wife something, after buying the mistress a Volt
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Martin Eberhard developed a “smart” cord that can discern the plug configuration’s rated voltage but it requires Tesla’s charging communication protocol. See Tesla’s website for more details of the cord. There was even greater detail of the design on Martin’s blog but he was forced to take that site down as part of his settlement with Musk.
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:24 pm)I know, right!?
Just goes to show, no matter what the chalkboard/computer-simulation/textbooks tell you, there is NO substitute for real world testing. You have to include the (often times very complex) human element.
/I’d be surprised if BMW, Toyota and the rest hadn’t realized the “backwards results” of regen already, but the realization/admission wouldn’t add to those engineer’s job stability.
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:36 pm)Does anyone know the towing status of these two options??
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:45 pm)Its a bit disheartening after watching the studio reporters in the Nissan video. The smirks about the recharge time, the noise, the range. They actually seemed upset it didn’t make noise, WHAT? The old joke about plugging your car into the cigarette lighter of your “real” car.
Unfortunately this is probably representative of many anti-EV people in the US. It’s going to take some time to get most-everyone to warm up to the idea of plugging your car in and driving on electricity. Change seems so difficult esp. with something as common as driving. I’m actually wishing for a bit of a gas price spike to spur the movement. This is where the reporters would say “WHAT?”
Jul 18th, 2010 (1:49 pm)What became of EStor, the capacitor type batteries?
+3
Jul 18th, 2010 (2:07 pm)The electrical energy recovered by regenerative braking comes from the magnetic field which makes the motor rotor turn. To get rotary motion from an electric motor, a sufficient voltage is required to meet the load; the mass , the velocity, wind resistance all contribute to the load that determines the amount of work the motor must do. To sustain a given velocity, the motor must constantly turn at a given speed which requires a sufficient magnetic field. As the vehicle slows that magnetic field tries to collapse. The potential difference to this drop in magnetic field is where the regenerative energy comes from. the circuitry must be properly designed to channel the current back into the battery. That energy has no where to go accept back to the battery. In an ICE, it takes the brakes, a mechanical friction device to stop the vehicle. This is accomplished through changing the energy into heat which is dissipated into the surrounding air. The motor would be destroyed if suddenly, it came to a stop. Just as what happens when a piston rod brakes. Just as the EV motor would be destroyed if it came to a complete sudden stop. What actually happens without regenerative braking curcuitry is the motors collapsing magnetic field slows the vehicle with the drop in energy being converted to heat just as the friction brakes do, just not as fast as friction brakes. The magnetic field resists collapsing since there is nowhere for the current to flow. With the proper circuitry, that current can flow back into the battery.
Jack Rickard has clearly used converted vehicles to do his testing. But he is no scientist and his so called theory to explain the results that he says supports regenerative braking as a myth is no theory at all. He just expounds an idea that would explain his results. There are many cases where regenerative braking is proven to recover electrical energy. For his theory to be sound, it most be duplicated. Another reason to reject his finding is, there is no explanation where the energy has gone. Without this explained, his experiment is flawed. The way they jury-ridged the vehicle may be what caused the results he obtained. It may be the modifications didn’t really give them regenerative capability and that the car was really operating just as if it had no regeneration. The one difference being that the added circuitry intended to give regeneration added resistance that used part of the electricity coming from the battery and therefore reduced the mileage.
Sorry but I don’t accept his premise that regenerative braking is a myth!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (2:28 pm)Carcus3, see my post #75. You would take the word of one person who does not follow scientific principles over all the scientific and engineering expertize of so many automotive companies who bring some outstanding vehicles to market. Jack Rickard is a video producer in the publishing industry. Don’t accept everything you read without scrutinizing it. He is the only one person I know of that claims regenerative braking is a myth. If it wasn’t for a post here by you, I wouldn’t have know about him. I hope my post #75 will help you understand why I don’t agree with his “theory”.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:06 pm)Have we ever had a post by a unicorn? Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha!
-1
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:15 pm)Funny chart. Made me laugh.
But yeah, it’s strange that there is a continued drum beat that a 100 mile range is deal killer when the data keeps piling up that it’s not. Just mentioned to nasaman that at least 875 people San Diego County, which has a population of 3M, have pre-ordered the Leaf. The US has a population of 300M, so just doing (some admittedly bogus) multiplication you end up with 87,500 national pre-orders. That’s a ton of pre-orders when you consider how much GM trumpeted a whole 10,000 Camaro pre-orders a few months before the Camaro launch. The Leaf pre-orders are well on the way to making the Camaro numbers look anemic by the time the car actually launches.
There just seems to be a lot of demand for EVs whether they are EREVs or BEVs, at least in some parts of the country.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:23 pm)Well, actually you will here it referred to as 110, 120, 115. I assume that the 115 comes from a compromise between 110 and 120 Vac, but is just a common reference to US household voltage.
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:24 pm)You wouldn’t want to place a small wager on whether regen on the Volt increases range, would you? If you would I have this bridge I’ve been thinking of selling ….
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:30 pm)I don’t think anything is conclusive on this. But what is interesting is questioning how regen affects driving habits and questioning the true benefit of regen (is it worth the cost?) and are there scenarios where you’d be better off without it?
Some things in some situations turn out to be counterintuitive.
/I know a girl who got her neck broke from an air bag. If the airbag hadn’t been there she probably wouldn’t have even broke her nose.
//Not saying that I necessarily want a car without an airbag, but I am saying I like the option of being able to turn it off.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:32 pm)I am not talking a dedicated fast charge line. I am discussing what most people already have installed in the home. 20 amp outlets are required by code in bathrooms, and are nearly as cheap to install vs. 15 amp outlets. The only difference is the small increase in cost of 12 awg vs 14 awg, and the couple bucks more for a 20 amp vs. 15 amp outlet.
Why would I care about charging in 4.6 hours vs. 6.9? Well opportunity charging comes to mind. Also, what if I am out late with the boys, get in at 2:00am, and the wife needs to take the car to work at 6:30 am? This is not a case of adding cost to the vehicle, only a case of allowing people to use all options open to them.
If you do not care that your car will take an extra 2+ hours to fully charge, then good for you. You can just be happy with what you got. For me I want logical options, and this makes sense to add something for basically nothing.
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:44 pm)Who’s going to do the testing? …… and which bridge is it? ( I might be interested)
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:50 pm)Ya, checked it out and the EV Focus might be the best looking EV for under $30k.
Let’s hear more about how this compares with the Volt!
GO EV!!!!
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:51 pm)Call me old-fashioned, but I am hopeful that there is still some segment of the population that would prefer to buy from a domestic auto maker. No doubt they have made their share of mistakes, but there are so many products where we are dependent on imports, at least with cars we still have a choice–for now.
+4
Jul 18th, 2010 (3:52 pm)I disagree.
All the data in the world will not erase the fact that most people don’t want a Leash on their car. Here in Houston t we are supposed to have all these charging stations and I have yet to see them materialize. We have 10 or so level 1 charging stations for the city’s fleet of plug Prius. But a level 1 station is worthless unless it happens to be at your job.
I can drive 50 miles in Houston without ever leaving the city limits. There are many days when I drive 120 miles without time to recharge along the way. The Leaf would not work for me except in maybe 50% of my driving. $32,000 for a 2nd or third car is going to be a deal breaker for a lot of people.
The level 3 charging is the one they always talk about, this so called 30 minute charge to 80%. Okay so already your max range has dropped to 80 miles. And that’s on a new battery…in a mild LA like climate. How much real world range do you have with the heat or a/c? In stop and go traffic? 50 miles? 40 miles? How many Leafs will be stranded on the side of the road? I need to buy stock in the flatbed towing companies as it’s going to be a bonanza for them.
I don’t care what anyone says, range anxiety is real.
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:00 pm)I have a deposit down on a Volt so I wanted to see what my choices are for charging, from the utility . I live in SOCAL so I called SCE to find out my options.
1. Keep what I have now which is Std rates (non time of use metering) which has 5 tiers from 12c to 30c and I find I am in the 3 to 5 tier most of the time and adding more charging will put me in the 27c to 30c rate all the time. If I charge 8kwh each nite times 30c it would cost 2.40 divided by 40 miles or 6c per mile
2. This option is time of use metering and varies slightly if you have an EV or not. Since I have never been on time of use I am not sure what would happen but I can’t see it working as the summer rates that would correspond to my level 3 now would be 57c at peak hours and 25c off peak I just can’t turn off the AC during the day. Winter is at 26c and they have a super off peak designed to charge the car from midnite to 6am at 10-16c. This just can’t work!!!!
3. Put in a second meter for the Volt charging only. This looks good as you can charge between 9pm and noon at 11c or 12c winter or summer. I have an electrician coming over to give me some estimates to put in the meter and maybe a 240v charger hookup.
If I charge at 12c it comes out to 2.4c per mile and 30c is 6c per mile so if I drive 10k miles per year I save $360 per year if I put in the 2nd meter and if I keep it 5 years $1800 so this is max to spend to break even installing the second meter.
My cars now are costing me 12c and 15.5 c per mile for gas so it it a step ahead in any case.
Have any of you looked at this and what have you found? Any comments on the above?
Roy
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:13 pm)To GM’s credit, they offer a selectable “low gear” mode in the Volt, so the driver can opt for less regen by NOT using the low gear. Conversely, if going down a long grade, I would definitely use Volt’s “low-gear” first to get my speed down as needed, rather than using the brakes. No doubt regen is valuable if it’s linked to the brake pedal.
Until now my plan was to use Volt’s “low gear” all the time. This article causes me to rethink that idea. I suspect it has a lot to do with the driver’s level of awareness. For example, I don’t like to waste gasoline so I use my brakes sparingly — as a result, I typically get 100,000 miles on a car without ever needing brake pad replacement. When I get a Volt, I will no doubt test the mileage range of “low” versus “normal” modes and draw my own conclusions.
Thanks again, great link.
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:16 pm)Thank you. Very interesting.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:30 pm)There are some of us out here who will not buy a Nissan because we simply will not support Japan Inc.
If I consider a BEV, I would be waiting for the Ford Focus.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:33 pm)Pat,
I thought you were over your pompass anti-American phase.
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:37 pm)Looks like Nissan is close to the 1,000 vehicles it has allocated for San Diego; 875.
But you can’t compare Camaro numbers to the Leaf: the Camaro is one of many ICE vehicles that many owners can choose from and it caters to select group of buyers. Let just keep the comparison between the Leaf and Volt. Nissan has rightly targeted cities for its roll-out. BEV will be desirable cars for city dwellers who only travel short distances. On the I-5 corridor from Seattle down to San Diego, the charging structure being installed there by DOE and ECOtality will make travel there easier so that BEV owners will have a greater option to travel further. California, Oregon and Washington states are leading by example and will benefit the most from the final advent of the electric vehicle in the U.S.A. EV technology will have the greatest impact on large population centers.
As for me, I still favor the Volt to any other EV available. From what I know, it will be an outstanding vehicle. the only car I will need to go anywhere I wish. Time will answer the debate over which vehicle will be more successful. But in the present time, it’s great to see more competition with each passing day.
Let me say, to all, Go Volt and Go Leaf! Lets diminish demand for foreign petroleum and spend our hard earned cash in the good old United States of America. (c$30 Billion per month and declining.)
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:37 pm)Level 3 charging is and will be a pain in the Arse for some time to come. Just consider that there are only 1/10 of 1% of the gas stations available to you and that you need gas every 50-80 miles and it takes 30 minutes charge time (about a 40 minute stop) to fill up. That is not convenient to anyone.
The Level 3 charging stations simply don’t exist in very many places.
The bottom line, the leaf will drive on the highway for about 90 minutes and then you will need to charge it for hours and hours and hours before you can get back out on the road.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:38 pm)LRGVProVolt; I liked the first half of your post…but:
The petroleum industry will not be disrupted by new EVs. Only about 25% of oil is used by cars and about 50% is non-transportation, i.e. plastics and synthetics. Don’t worry about them, they will do just fine.
Fusion is perpetually 30 years in the future, not here to-day. Cold Fusion is a myth.
However LFTRs will give us everything you mentioned and has already been proven to work.
Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactors were invented in the 1960s at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. They ran one for almost 5 years. LFTRs use cheap thorium, are inherently safe, do not produce long term radio-active waste and were abandoned because they are not suitable for making bombs. See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk
and
http://energyfromthorium.com/
Although the principles are proven, there is still some research required for the best materials to have long 50 year plus life. This should be our highest priority to solve our energy and pollution problems.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:43 pm)240V AC is, essentially, two 120V AC lines in opposite phase on separate conductors sharing a common neutral wire and a common ground wire. You can’t run 240V AC on a 120V cord — there are simply not enough conductors. Well, at least until some spavined idiot hijacks the ground conductor for the other phase.
The Volt’s onboard charger handles both 120V and 240V. The external units are power controllers that prevent the cord from being energized until plugged into the Volt and until the Volt has confirmed that all safety interlocks are satisfied.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (4:53 pm)DonC, we will see.
I think the lady in the Video is a good indication. It would appear that if level 3 charging stations were available on every corner, she is still not interested. This is how the press will deal with BEV’s.
Nissans $99 list is just a list. Carlos G. has commented that he does not think these are all sales by any means. Also, extrapolating the numbers from a group in San Diego to the rest of the country is silly. There are no 87,500 national pre-orders.
IMO… The leaf will sell well in the limited numbers they plan on producing for the US for the first two years. By the end of that time, BEV’s will be well known by the general population and they will be considered a niche car for hard core environmentalists. The common wisdom will be that BEV’s are not good for very many people.
There are no real data to show otherwise.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (5:04 pm)Get your facts straight. The “smart” part was verifying a good ground for safety. Most electronic appliances to-day can recognize and use 110 to 240 volt power, but this is not a function of the cord.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (5:06 pm)Anything in the range of 110V to 120V AC is “standard”.
Jul 18th, 2010 (5:24 pm)There’s one category where we are still unable to compare the LEAF and Volt: for some time now the MSRP of the former has been known, while that of the latter remains a mystery.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (5:25 pm)That’s 500,000 electric cars *on the road*, the total having been sold over all previous years. The 50,000 estimate is electric vehicles *sold* in 2015.
However, it would be hard to get 500K EVs on the road between now and 2015 unless the average yearly rate of sales was, um, about 100K per year. The arithmetic doesn’t seem to hold up.
Jul 18th, 2010 (5:26 pm)Gone into silence. Still don’t know for sure if it is a scam, but every month that goes by without news convinces me more and more that it is a scam. I don’t know if ZENN motors has been taken in or is part of the scam, but they too have been silent except for a statement that they are still confident of EEStor. Dick Wier publicly promised ZENN delivery of first hand-assembled unit before last Christmas. He also said that the auto-assembly line would be complete this spring and all the hard to solve problems were done. Almost every news item that came from EEStor could possibly be a lie, so proof lies outside EEStor/ZENN. Two outside groups have visited EEStor’s assembly line and confirmed that “They are not building Pet Rocks”, but were not allowed to see anything secret or proprietary, much less a working prototype. So was all this automated assembly equipment for real or just for show? I have tried hard to find on the internet anything that would convince me it must be real without success. I also sold at a loss my ZENN shares first week January.
Jul 18th, 2010 (5:30 pm)Having lived in Houston I understand what you’re saying. But Houston isn’t NY or LA or San Francisco or most other cities or suburbs. Houston sprawls. Also, you’re talking about your drive but not about the drive of other family members. In most cases where there are two or more drivers one doesn’t need that much range. For example, the vast majority of stay at home moms in The Woodlands wouldn’t need more than a forty mile range.
Also it’s not really $32K. It’s more like $25k, which is less than a Prius.
Just as a PS, in my book Houston weather is not mild. It’s like living in a swamp, with weather that makes Atlanta look cool and dry. I guess you can get used to it since some Houstonians rarely use AC, but I don’t think I could ever do that.
Jul 18th, 2010 (5:39 pm)One more thing about EEStor/ZENN. A sure confirmation of a scam would be inside traders selling their ZENN stock, but all insiders are sitting pat. They appear to be confident that EEStor will deliver.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (5:51 pm)According to jackrickard, “The regen is used on both brakes and throttle.”
I’m just going to conjecture that the GM engineers are smart enough to design the motor controller’s software to dial in *absolutely no* regeneration unless the brake pedal is depressed. That would prevent the inefficient oscillations that plagued jackrickard’s analog control system around the sweet spot of no-accel-no-brake.
Note that the “low” position on the Volt’s “shifter” allows the heavy duty regeneration without touching the brake. Fine for stop & go traffic; no claims are made for extending the battery range.
BTW, I drove the prototype Chrysler electric minivan back in the early/mid ’90s. When you got off the accelerator, the vehicle felt like it would roll on forever. Apparently, the Westinghouse engineers who designed the power train knew that efficiency trumped jackrickard’s “simulating the back pressure from the compression of an ICE engine very nicely”.
Regeneration *for braking mode only* is a way to recover energy that’s just going to be wasted by heating up brake disks. Engaging it during throttle mode while coasting along the open road is just stupid.
Jul 18th, 2010 (6:05 pm)My comment is really another question for you. Isn’t there a monthly service charge for the second meter? I have a second home and it costs me $16.88 per month when I’m not there. That’s $16.00 fee plus 0.88 tax. That is for a base rate before I use enough to start cost per kwh. I don’t know how this works for a second meter at the same residence.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (6:11 pm)Yes not all of those sales will turn into sales. My question would be: Why can’t you extrapolate the San Diego numbers? San Diego is the first roll out market so it’s gotten attention, and that attention has turned into pre-orders. But I don’t think San Diego will ultimately have a higher EV penetration than San Francisco or Portland. In fact it will likely be the opposite. To me the big difference is between areas where hybrids sell and those where they don’t.
FWIW everyone always sings the refrain that a new technology will be a “niche” player. Conventional wisdom said that mobile phones would always be a niche and never replace land lines — lousy call quality. Conventional wisdom was that MP3 players would remain a niche and never replace CDs — lousy sound reproduction. Conventional wisdom held that iPhones would be a niche and never replace standard mobile phones because people would never want to use a phone as a computer — lousy screen and keyboard. (Qualcomm has paid for believing in the conventional wisdom). So the fact that conventional wisdom says that BEVs will never replace ICE vehicles — lousy range — doesn’t mean much.
The big issue is whether an electric drive is better than an ICE drive. If it is, and if the price differential is not that steep, BEVs will account for a substantial percentage of sales. It’s really not an environmental appeal — note that there are not many fan cites for CNG cars although they would give you far more environmental bang for the buck than an EV.
Jul 18th, 2010 (6:18 pm)I’ve been tracking Zenn Motor Co stocks since the beginning of this year. It has been on a steady decline from $3.50 per share down to $1.43 on July 11th. It has suddenly bounced and is starting to move up… slowly.
If you believe in magic, then now would be the time to buy. It is at the 52 week low. The 52 week high was $5.9965
Jul 18th, 2010 (6:35 pm)Gee, I was just trying to thank Chelsea for stopping by and posting (g). (now where if I put that unicorn Gravitar….)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (6:41 pm)I certainly *hope* that there is not only EV demand, but that those who get them have a *great* experience. The Volt (and “the cause”) doesn’t need any sour grapes attitudes spread.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (6:49 pm)WOW, thanks for the specific rate info. For a minute there, I thought that you said 57 cents/peak Kw hour (lol), No wait, it *DOES* say 57 cents! Holy crow! Seems to me that it’d make the choice *for* me.
I’m in The NE and our rates *feel* high, until I read something like your situation. I sure hope that the utilities out there aren’t all squawk and no walk about supporting EV charging!
Best of luck.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (6:51 pm)+1. ‘Nuff said.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (6:55 pm)Amen! +1
All we need now is time and commitment to the task at hand. It’ll happen.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:00 pm)—
The plan is using to allocate Volts is the same as the plan gm used to sell the new Camaro. Essentially people who ordered early, and who in some cases had placed big deposits, were passed over, they felt, so that cars went to others who swooped in later with higher offers or better connections.
Not having been one of those waiting for Camaro and having no inside information, I have no idea where the truth about the Camaro process resides. Possibly it relates to different dealers getting different allocations, but those allocations not in proportion to orders. I do know that the Camaro process produced lingering hard feelings that have lasted to this day, and perhaps have damaged that brand among a wide community.
Most likely the same thing will happen with Volt, as the same process is being followed. One can hope that its intensity subsides more quickly for Volt, but it is going to be there.
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:01 pm)It’s that “exponential” stuff (lol). Kinda like quantum physics, spooky stuff, but it seems to “work”.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:06 pm)Good point. That’d make a difference. Of course if you’re a rich dude with two homes…… (lol) (I couldn’t tease most folks like that, Pickles)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:15 pm)Although I totally agree with the niche status of things that turn into huge hits, we have no idea how many “Next big thing”s went nowhere. Similar to the answer to “who lost the Super Bowl two years ago”.
On the second part, I’ll just pray that you’re right about direct quality comparisons between EV and ICE rides! That’s why I keep singing the tune about “word of mouth” sales. In my never to be humble opinion, there is absolutely no doubt that people will find the EV smile undeniable. Resistance is *futile*. Once prices come down into the affordable range, fasten your seat belt and hold on!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:20 pm)The cost of installing a 12awg 110v line would be about the same as installing a 14awg 220v line, so why not go for the 220V? The wire would be about the same, the labor would be the same, there would be extra cost for a more expensive 220 circuit breaker. What $10? And then you don’t have to ask GM to modify their charging options. Do you already have 110V 20A in your garage? I have not seen that in garages where I live but maybe it is common in your area.
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:21 pm)I did a little more research on the SAE J1772 electrical connectors and from information on Wikipedia it appears you are correct that the on-board charger handles both 120 Volt and 240 Volt AC. The connector does not have any connector pins for handling DC.
I erroneously thought that the “Wall Mounted Unit” was a power supply converter. Actually, it is a unit and the J1772 connector supplied for safety purposes.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:22 pm)I wasn’t referring to the allocation plans, but rather to the EV experience itself. If a ton of people end up with stranded LEAFS, or start kicking the cats due to range anxiety, it will tarnish the Volt (unfairly).
If the rollout is unfair in any way (for any vehicle) at the dealer level, well, that’s the chance they take individually – not much we can do about it.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:29 pm)The standard reference is 120 volt!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:41 pm)My wife says we have three “homes.” The principal residence, the “vacation home,” and the RV (1993 Excel 25 foot 5th wheel). You know what Woody Allen says about being rich? You know you’re rich when you have a table to work a jigsaw puzzle and you don’t have to clean it off for anything else. You’re probably richer than you think.
And yes, Opal and Earl are rich indeed!
My point to RDOCA was, of course, only a caution to look for hidden costs with the second meter option.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:49 pm)If someone wants to give me a Leaf “FREE” and the car goes a LOT of miles on a charge…. I’m in !!! Nissan is a good company and remember “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” LOL
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:51 pm)Agreed on all points. I knew that I could poke you and not have you go ballistic (g). The “extra meter” charge will end up effecting quite a few people. Personally, I’m planning on a plain old 120 extension cord, but I *do* hope that the “time of day” rate breaks are substantial.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:52 pm)Tagamet, you and I both test drove a Volt in less-than-ideal rainy weather on wet pavement in NYC a few months ago. As I recall, we were both very impressed, and I was even surprised, at how quiet, smooth, responsive, comfortable, spacious, etc, etc, the car was. And I know Dan Petit had a similar reaction from his test drive. So I think CorvetteGuy makes a VERY IMPORTANT point here —in fact, I think the Volt’s overall driving impression is essentially that of a luxury car like a Lexus or BMW. And GM must recognize this when they say the most effective way to promote a Volt is to have people drive them!
So I’m not worried about competition from the Leaf, Fusion EV or other EVs in the near future.
/You might say GM wound up designing a “Caddy in Chevy clothing”
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:54 pm)120V may be what many refer to, but if you research it, you will find that it is commonly referred to as 110, 115, and 120.
In actuality the true voltage nominal regulates at 117V, but that’s spilting hairs or atoms in the case of nuclear generated electricity :
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:56 pm)Thanks for the link. Didn’t realize they had published the $30k price and 100 mile range. Probably based on EPA test instead of Japan’s anemic city test so real range will be significantly farther than the LEAF with slightly smaller battery. Have they announced production quantities? Do you think they are loosing money at this price? Interesting how Ford can get 150% more range with only 44% larger battery than the Volt. Oh use 86% of battery instead of 50%, guess that depends on the chemistry. I wonder what the battery warranty will be. Actually this is sounding reasonable, given that people will charge every night, even though drivers will be allowed to use 86% of the battery, they almost never will.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:58 pm)Why worry at all. Competition amongst all the EV players is something we should all encourage.
It’s not a “we vs them” time. It’s “we want to drop our addition to oil time”.
-2
Jul 18th, 2010 (7:59 pm)….and normally you’re sooooooo positive. Here we have some irrational negativity. Not feeling yourself today?
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:01 pm)I hope GM surprises us by somehow programming the powertrain to do 0-60 mph in about 7 seconds (or better) in Sport mode. Hopefully, this is possible with the electric motor and battery they have now.
Maybe it won’t stress the battery too much since the Volt has a good cooling active system. Of course that would drain the battery faster. But who cares? If you know you’re only going about 25 miles on a Sunday drive who cares if you drain the battery fast by having a little fun with your new Volt.
Maybe the electric motor can be tweaked to put out an extra 60 horsepower or something … kind of like Intel processors have a Turbo (overclocked) mode. That would cool. Maybe GM will surprise us and add an ultracapacitor to the powertrain?
Bob Lutz is one of the “fathers of the Volt” you know. They don’t call him “Maximum Bob” for no good reason. He’d want the Volt to run at the maximum possible performance if you want it to.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:07 pm)Thanks for the tip. They did not mention any chg but now I will make sure to ask.
I have kept track of all my el usage for 10 years and the avg. I pay after all is said and done is less than 14c per kwh but if you get to the top tier with any useage all the new with the Volt will be in the top tier.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:16 pm)Absolutely agreed on these points. The wet pavement/drizzle drive in NYC was FAR from ideal, and one of my fellow participants drove like the was TRYING o get the Volt to break traction going through the cones (unsuccessfully, BTW). One of our family cars is a previously loved Lexus, so I can easily compare their handling. No contest.. Volt, hands down. But the biggest impression I have is the quiet. I remember getting out of the Volt and a news reporter stuck a mic in my face and I was just babbling “It was the quiet, the quiet” When I saw the reporter’s face there was a “Boy did *I* pick the wrong guy” look, so I tried to say something at least half-sensical. “Quiet as a church mouse, softer than a butterfly’s kiss”. So, HEY GM! Get people’s butts in the seats! The luxury is on SO many levels – instant torque, quiet, soft, sure-footed ride. Seriously, stop the talk and start the test drives!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:24 pm)My take on all the over 110v chargers is they will have the ability to report the amount of energy you consumed, which would then give somebody the ability to tax it.
-5
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:25 pm)The biggest advantage of electric cars will be low maintenance compared to ICE …plus no gas and if the range cud be improved to 150+ miles in the next 3-4 years ..it will be big plus …That is why doesn’t make sense to buy prius etc ..just look under the hood not easy to repair anything & the dealer repairs add up fast …It seems that progressive states on the west coast are far ahead of the rest in giving incetives to install high voltage public charging staions ..in the next 1-2 years or so we will know how BEV are accepted by the public …It is certain that BEV revolution will catch up fast in Europe & some Asian countries than US ..US is the least environment conscious country in the west ..the dum dumbs in US will not accept it as long as ICE is cheaper …for them other priorities are higher 6 packs smoke weed & all u can eat buffet ..they are not adaptable species just live on the hog & scared of change …
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:28 pm)I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they juiced up the 0 to 60 speed. Someone in the thread mentioned good 0 to 30 time and I agree that that’s already there.
It won’t be long!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:28 pm)I totally agree with you that electrics could and should take over from ICE. I think they will drive better and simply are better. I just see that a little farther out in the future than you do.
The general population does not carpool, chooses bigger engines over smaller ones, drives cars that are bigger than they need, and does not generally check their gas mileage. The car is an appliance/toy/social indicator (i.e. I need the Lexus over the Toyota) for them.
This same general population is not going to buy a small car that can drive 90 minutes on a charge with the hope of zigzagging along following your GPS to the next charging location (probably not exactly where you are going). If they don’t find a super fast charging location, after their 90 minutes of driving they might as well get a hotel. This will get old really fast and the word will get out. The automotive press and the press in general will crucify these things.
I hope electrics take off too. I just think a 100 mile BEV supported by a limited number of charging locations is not sufficient for the average person. In some cities, it will surely satisfy a particular group of people, but surely not the population at large.
90 minutes of driving, 15 hours to charge (for the average person). This is not a recipe for wide spread success.
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:30 pm)Hey Pat,
Why do you think Europe does not have wide spread electric car use now. They have had high gas prices for a long time.
Did they have to wait for the Lazy Dum Dums in the US to get the ball rolling for them?
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:33 pm)Lost me on this one. Whatever charger you use will monitor those electrons, and yes, I won’t be surprised when they are taxed. *Eventually* they (we) will have to recoup funds lost due to lower gasoline usage, but that won’t be for a long time. FIRST lets get the first steps taken.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:34 pm)There was a significant bump up when it hit $2 as a lot of existing share holders had decided to buy more when it dropped to $2. Probably the same for $1.50 and I predict another bump up when it hits $1.
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:39 pm)Although I agree with this, it kinda ignores the fact that we are finally *ON TRACK*!
Huzzah!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (8:58 pm)After composing a reply to this comment several times and losing the text after being interrupted, I almost gave up putting this response back together.
For starters try this link:
http://focusfusion.org/index.php/site/article/how_will_we_get_there_from_here/
And for cold fusion do a query on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
I believe your statement that fusion will take 30 more years might be based on information about the multi-nation ITER project. However, Dense Plasma Fusion seems now very likely to prove net energy by fusion of an a-neutronic material, pB11, that will produce practically no radio activity such that there will be no fear of terrorism from fissionable material, and this goal is on schedule to be complete by the end of this year. Commercial Fusion power plants will be operation by 2020 if they succeed.
As for cold fusion, since the failure in 1989 to duplicate the experiment by Martin Fleischmann and Staney Pons, those researchers who continued the quest for cold fusion have had positive results.
OUTLINE OF POLYNEUTRON THEORY by John C. Fisher:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FisherJCoutlineofp.pdf
I quote from that abstract, “Over the past two decades many room-temperature experiments have demonstrated nuclear phenomena that lie outside the purview of present nuclear theory. These include generation of energy in amounts not attributable to non-nuclear sources, production of
helium and tritium, generation of high energy alpha particles, and transmutations of ordinary nuclei. Here I propose that massive neutron isotopes, or polyneutrons, are key reactants in this new family of nuclear phenomena.” The theory explains the transmutation of materials documented in various laboratories. In provides a theory which explains cold fusion or Low Energy Nuclear Reactions as they are frequently referred as being.
I hope this has enlightened you to future possibilities.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:03 pm)Holey Crap!!! This is serious!!
We have been concerned that the continuing low price of gas would hurt EV sales, and never gave much thought to electricity prices skyrocketing. For years electricity was around 5¢ and (around here) has slowly gone up to 13¢. Now locally (Ontario) the government has mandated up to 40¢ feed-in tariff for solar power. Now I think electric companies think that high prices are acceptable. If this trend is allowed to continue it will kill EV sales!!
As I’ve said before there is a potentially low cost solution in LFTRs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:04 pm)I agree Tag, we are on track but I think it is because of the Volt.
I just like to point out that BEVs are not ready for prime time. They are great and its great to get started but BEVs are not ready for the general population. Some are so enthusiastic that they think BEVs are ready when they really are not. They come to the Volt site and tell us that the Volt is not that great and BEVs are a better choice.
The Volt is a bridging technology and it is the reason we are “ON TRACK”. If we only had BEVs, we would have to wait and wait for battery technology to improve. Now, we don’t have to wait any longer. The Volt bridges the gap.
Volt is the only widely acceptable EV from a major auto maker. The price may be a little high on Version 1 but the engineering is on target.
BEVs may rule the future, I am focused on the next few years and the Volt.
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:12 pm)This won’t happen.
I live in the nuclear regulatory environment. Things don’t move that fast. If you decided today to design a light water reactor using existing technology that we have proven is safe and have about 400 operating years of experience with, you would not get a plant built by 2020. That is how things go.
In this case, you are talking about something that is still experimental at this point. I would put my money on the 30 year time-frame and that is only if everything keeps succeeding along the way.
This is depressing to me, but that is the way the ball bounces in the US. After a decade, we still don’t have the world trade center in NY back up. Nuclear plants are slow compared to sky scrapers.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:29 pm)So if I were to compare the Leaf with the Volt two thoughts come to mind. First you would be comparing apples to oranges, bevs to erevs and second, we don’t even have all the facts yet to make the best comparison with these two different vehicles, ie both warranties, both prices, cs mode mpg to name a few. The Leaf should be compared with other bevs and The Volt IMO should be compared with other plug-in hybrids . The Volt and Leaf should both sell out easily 2011 and even better in 2012 after people spread the word. It always seems to come back to need and purpose when it comes to choosing between the Volt and Leaf. So if either of these vehicles works for you, feel good about reducing your oil need and lowering your air pollution rate. If we can create more American jobs in the process so much the better!
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:33 pm)Thanks, I haven’t kept up with this. Last time I checked they were still trying to find money to proceed with. So we should know next January if the theory is valid. I wish LPP all good luck. I do not understand why there is no support for LFTRs, but if this does work, and if it produces electricity cheaper than LFTRs, I am all for it. Even if the electricity would be more expensive it would be much better than any existing power source. And unlike LFTRs they apparently have financing.
I’ll wait for more than theories on Cold Fusion, but will keep a more open mind.
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:37 pm)The federal government will be able to replace the gasoline tax with revenue generated by all those formerly foreign petroleum dollars that we Americans spend on products sold here in the U.S. including our Volts. Tax revenues will sour; take a look at all the sales taxes it will generate. Once everyone wakes up to smell the roses they will understand how the electric vehicle revolution will fill the state and federal coffers with tax dollars. States will be able to repair their existing road structure and repair our crumbling bridges, dams, and other infra-structure. We just might (will) see a return to manufacturing in America.
God, I pray that this will be so!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 18th, 2010 (9:57 pm)Your welcome! Just as you don’t understand why there isn’t more support for LFTR’s, I don’t understand why the government doesn’t fund research like LPP is doing. Even with far less funding, they seem to be further ahead then those projects being funded by the government now. As I understand it, the problems lie with DOE and their pet projects they have committed to already. LPP has relied on donations by individuals and entrepreneurs. They will be very rich once this succeeds and won’t have any problem floating stocks and bonds once this takes off.
The cost of a DPF reactor (5Megawatt) is projected to cost around $300,000. The cost of engineering one is projected to be $20 million. These small reactors would be installed close to the neighborhood where residences or business would use the power produced, lowering transmission costs and lessening the chance for widespread brownouts.
Thanks again, Roy.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:11 pm)From your lips to God’s ear!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:14 pm)Hey Tag. Have a good night! I am sign off until late tmorrow. See you then.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:18 pm)You make it sound like every one who is forward thinking and organized enough to make a BEV work for them is a zig zagging idiot.
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:26 pm)That may be what he meant, but I sure didn’t get that. JMO.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:28 pm)What’s funny is that I’m relying on YOU for the qualitative difference! If it makes you feel less lonely, it seems that many people share your enthusiasm for the EV ride. The anthropologist (we’ll avoid this topic!
) who did the Mini-E study started looking at EVs in 1990 or 1991. They took a bunch of alternative fuel cars to the Rose Bowl and let people drive them around. He reports that when people drove the CNG and methane cars and so forth they said: “OK. No problem. It’s a car.” When they drove a lousy DC EV they said: “Wow, that was a lot of fun.” Or, as he said, no one has made a movie called “Who Killed the Methane Car” even though GM crushed these vehicles just like they crushed the EV-1s.
Intellectually I think CNG is a much better alternative to oil for environmental and security purposes, but I personally don’t want a CNG car. I want an EV. Go figure.
Obviously there is a something going on here, which, after driving the Volt, you probably understand far better than I do. (Or as you say when referring to your wife: “Once she drives it everything will be fine!”). FWIW I’ve never been an early (early early to late early) adopter for something which hasn’t taken off. I’ve had some false negatives where I’ve been late to the party but never a false positive. No reason to think I’ve suddenly become unique.
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:39 pm)Roy, did you get a chance to read Martins blog. Seems like $2400 to recognize a proper ground couldn’t be right.
+2
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:41 pm)The car pool lane is actually interesting. If you drive either a Volt or a Leaf in CA you get to use the car pool lanes, plus you’ll be spewing less pollution than any four cars, and using no oil, so why would you care?
I agree with you that most people aren’t going to rely on the chargers. And then some. Basically I don’t think anyone is going to use the public chargers. Maybe a few people but IMHO the public chargers aren’t really needed. Home chargers yes. Public chargers no. Where we differ is that you think most people will conclude a hundred mile range is a deal breaker whereas I think most people will conclude it’s fine.
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:45 pm)I must be getting goofy because of lack of sleep or something, because I keep thinking of the cartoon guys that open their trench coats and have a ton of watches pinned inside (“Hey buddy, wanna buy a WATCH”)(lol).
Seriously, I know what you mean about trying to communicate the subjective experience and *knew* that that’s what you’ve been working on. All I can say is that at *some* point you’ll have (and take) the opportunity to drive an EV, and then it’ll clear – and you WILL enjoy it. Period.
I’m of the same ilk on “early adopter” issues. I’m more a second generation or second “level” guy. I don’t buy the first new computer, but as the parts mature, I’ll integrate them into my machine. Every so often I need to start with a new motherboard/chip, but almost everything else is backward compatible. With the Volt, I’ll break my pattern if I can. There’s no way I’m waiting an instant longer than I have to with the Volt. Life is short, and I want to spend some time with a Volt.
BTW, can CNG be used to drive a generator? It could still be the backup power source for a Voltish vehicle, no? Or would it dissipate over time, since it won’t be needed often?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (10:56 pm)Will the Volt still be car pool lane eligible in CA even if it doesn’t meet CARB standards?
RE the opinion on 100 mile range being ok, I truly hope that you are correct. This is *not* a situation where the sets are mutually exclusive. Just like the Prius and Volt are overlapping sets, I hope that they both do great! I’m more concerned that those people who are NOT forward thinking and planners don’t end up stranded and bad mouthing EV’s. But even if that happens, I’ll bet they start the sentence with “I LOVE driving the EV, but …..
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:00 pm)BTW, where are all the trolls tonight? (did I say that out loud)?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:12 pm)The first thing I am doing is reconfiguring my household electricity draw. Have gone to coil light bulbs throughout ($300). Bought a smaller water heater ($400). And had dual pane windows installed ($2600 after tax credit). Will use even less when the refrigerator is changed out at a later date.
This places my household in the 2.5 to 3 tier chart. The Volt will usually return to the garage with a partial charge remaining. So a recharge to the full 40 mile range is about $1. My workplace is pro EV with some recharge occurring there. Local city parking structures have charge stations which are free for the first 75 minutes. I expect many more local businesses to become EV friendly and offer charge opportunity on site. Costco for example. Shop for an hour and spend $60. Recharge in their parking lot for about 30 cents. This is a pretty good deal for Costco.
Cars like the Leaf, Tesla, and the EV Focus which require a recharge plugin each two hours will broaden this trend. Businesses which offer recharge will be the places where these vehicles stop to shop. Expect to see many more EV friendly signs (green plug-in logos) on local businesses and web sites.
=D-Volt
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:26 pm)My statements are borne from GM’s reluctance to state an increase of production numbers based upon the added introduction zones. Nissan’s numbers are based foundationally upon pre-orders with $100 deposit dispatched and solid pre-orders from power utilities and governments. The “stay tuned” approach is thin at best and nowhere have I seen a concrete number for Volt manufacture ( as you state, 40K ) actually committed to by GM, rather, alluded to. So as introductory states have been announced, no new production stats have, meaning same few thousand Volts spread over a slightly wider area.
This can all change in an instant if GM announces a revised plan for increased production numbers. But so far, this has yet to be. Also as stated, I live in an entire region of the USA which as yet, seems to be ignored by GM and may not see Volts, if at all, until 2012 or 2013. Thankfully this is not etched in granite and things can change. With Mr. Ghosn’s assertions to the public, his projections of 200,000 LEAFs produced worldwide means shifting some of that product stateside to fill demand is very likely.
Obviously I’m stating my opinion that Nissan’s approach will plant the seeds of electrification faster than GM’s. This is also supported by states jumping at Nissan’s canvassing to add green power charging stations with large publicly funded green projects. GM has been slow on the draw, again, in my opinion, as their efforts in this arena have been far less prolific.
In my neck o’ the woods ( Microsoft, Boeing ) I see Nissan getting all the early buzz, and the politicians and public actually doing something. Thus, a palpable momentum GM is losing out on.
RECHARGE!
James
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:26 pm)OT: Congrats on all the energy improvements! Do you have any info on the actual validity of the Energy Star rating system? I’ve read some very unsettling articles that basically said that that system was a sham. Basically, they were saying that the appliance *MFG* was the one that set their own rating, and that few if any actual appliances were physically tested by the govt agency that handed out the rankings. The govt folks that were to audit govt programs (Office of Management and Budget??) submit applications for imaginary appliances and either were simply approved based on the application info, or (in two instances) received and email that said “Can you really DO that?” A simple reply email that said “Sure we can” was enough to get approved. I’d like to know that these rating are actually *assessed* by someone other than the mfg.
TIA.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 18th, 2010 (11:37 pm)This part really interests me, because all along I’ve been wonder why GM was doing ANY work on EV infrastructure. It sends the message that the Volt NEEDS special infrastructure! What you see as “far less prolific”, at least initially to me, seemed like far too much! (lol). I’ve drifted toward supporting these efforts, just because it’s probably going to be useful when GM releases a BEV. (Shrug).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-3
Jul 19th, 2010 (12:04 am)No, it’s neither a PZEV nor a high MPG gas car. Volt = FAIL
Volt’s just a high cost niche toy with low volume.
+1
Jul 19th, 2010 (12:05 am)It would be my guess that Lyle hasn’t even seen the FORD yet or else he would surely have posted it.
I am an Engineer and am into this sort of thing and I knew that it was going to happen , but I didn’t know the status of the FORD myself.
Jul 19th, 2010 (12:28 am)Boeing folks could take issue with your statement that the Lunar Rover LRV was a GM product, as it was contracted to Boeing to build and deploy, with GM’s Delco as a major subcontractor. Delco did build it’s four in-wheel electric motors and GM Defense Research Labs did build it’s fascinating wheels.
At $38,000,000 per copy it was just a tad more expensive than a Volt, and it did suffer from intense “range anxiety” as it never traveled further than 12.5 miles from the Lunar LM spaceship. Also the trick 36-volt silver-zinc potassium hydroxide batteries were non-rechargable. Astronauts were not allowed further from the ship than the distance they could walk back ( called “walkback distance” ) in case the LRV malfunctioned.
With the most used lunar rover having just 22.5 miles on the clock before being abandoned, I’d say it had to be, one of, if not the most expensive “car” ever produced.
RECHARGE!
James
+2
Jul 19th, 2010 (12:45 am)Hey Tag, doesn’t your stance kind of sound a bit Volt-snobbish? I agree with an earlier poster who garnered 8 or 9 +1s as he charted and aptly stated that certain drivers with specific qualifications will profit quite smartly with a LEAF as a second commuter vehicle, and Volt will fill a niche as well. He lamented this polarization from a website that was once a haven for folks who wanted to get of foreign oil to a Volt rah rah site that snubbed anything but.
There’s room for all EVs, right? Why the (shrug)? I’m not getting it.
I don’t think this is Camaro vs. Mustang – or Chevy C-K truck vs. F-150 here. Nope. I think this is about showing the Middle East and Hugo Chavez the door, handing clean waters and clean air with robust ecosystems to our kids and bringing all those American boys home who are guarding American oil interests 24/7 while torpedoeing our economy. I think there’s plenty of room for BEVs and EREVs.
Charging stations benefit Volt owners just as much as LEAF drivers. Isn’t that really obvious?
We all know Volts can switch to petroleum and that is it’s crown, it won’t leave you stressed or stranded. We don’t have to knee-jerk down BEVs to prove that again and again and again and…….
For many, a LEAF will just be a smarter buy because it’s less expensive, has the lease program and it seats 5. If GM does build Volts in true mass production, there’ll be lots of Volt drivers. No need to bash one to highlight the other.
Please go back to the positive-minded poster I’ve come to know and appreciate over all these gm-volt.com years, OK?
RECHARGE!
James
-1
Jul 19th, 2010 (1:08 am)I will employ just enough arrogance to speak toward finishing what was not said in the sentence above. The idea is that BEV’s are not ready for prime time.
Yet they will not be driving themselves through town so…The automotive press and the press in general will crucify these things because their drivers are so stupid that they will not only be zig zagging off course to find any possible charging point but they will actually be conspicuously stranded all over the place and the press will declare EV’s risky and or useless.
+1
Jul 19th, 2010 (3:01 am)With the Leaf you can go your 40 miles during the day, come home at 5 and plug it in, and still have a full 100 AER again by 8 pm or so if you want to go out.
What’s your point?
Jul 19th, 2010 (3:53 am)Nope, in general that is only the “free” ones. The ones you will be able to buy for $1000 or less (+ installation) won’t have any communication facilities. The free ones are being used for research, and in theory detailed individual information will not be going to the government, but who knows. However, the real point is that they can’t be used for taxes if only a few EV owners have the “tattle-tale” versions.
What could be used for taxes, though, are those second-meter EV-only super-cheap electrical rates others have been discussing here today.
Jul 19th, 2010 (4:22 am)The only number I have is a year over year billing history. Our electric bill is $20-$25 less per month. Savings of about $400 so far. The smaller water heater is actually delivering hot water faster than the old one. The dual pane windows are much quieter, smoother to open, and very low maintenance. We no longer get window sil water from condensation. Havn’t replaced a bad coil light bulb since we switched over. Happy with the changes.
The Goodyear Fuel Max (Volt tires) I put on my truck are very good. No before and after mpg measure, but there is a noticable glide factor when decelerating. Very good in all areas.
=D-Volt
+2
Jul 19th, 2010 (4:25 am)I quite agree with you. No one who spends 90 minutes a day or more behind a steering wheel should try to drive a Leaf.
Yes, I do drive that far, once or twice a year on vacation. If I had a Leaf I wouldn’t dream of taking it on vacation. And yes, sometimes for a weekend getaway I drive that much. Same answer. Drive a gas guzzler for those trips.
So, maybe we can agree:
1) Driving a Leaf would not be driving totally gas-free for most people.
2) The Leaf is mostly for households that have:
- at least two cars, and
- one person who usually drives less than 60 miles a day, and
- a place to plug an EV in at home.
I guess the question is, what percentage of the population does that include?
+2
Jul 19th, 2010 (4:38 am)Tag, do you honestly believe that a TON of people will end up with stranded LEAFs, MiEVs, EV Focus, BMW Mini-E, etc. without hearing the constant nagging of the NAV systems reporting that “you are low on energy and need to recharge, here are the nearest charge points”?
Point is most early adopters are EV savvy. That may happen when joe/jane public really start buying these EVs then I can see that maybe occurring, but that won’t happen until second wave 2013 or later. Early adopters will have these charge points memorized in the first few weeks or by first month tops!
GO EV!!!
+2
Jul 19th, 2010 (4:48 am)I beg to differ. Of course there aren’t any commercial plug-in hybrids yet, but every one I am aware of that is supposed to arrive in the next few years is indeed a hybrid – it depends on blending power from an electric motor and a gasoline engine to drive the car. None of them can promise you any all-electric miles without adding a bunch of silly restrictions – except when going uphill, except when passing, except when going over 60 MPH, etc.
The V