Jul 14
GM to Announce Chevrolet Volt Battery Warranty, Manufacturing Update, and Major Consumer Initiative
GM has issued a brief press statement indicating that some major Volt news will be announced Wednesday at 2 PM Eastern time. The news will be reported from GMs Brownstown battery assembly plant. This is the facility where GM has been manufacturing Chevrolet Volt battery packs using the prismatic lithium ion cells provided by LG Chem. Hundreds of prototype packs have been assembled since the first rolled off the line in January.
This facility is of sufficient size to support full mass production of the Volt, slated at 30,000 cars per year for 2012.
On Thursday it is known that President Obama will be coming to Michigan to visit the groundbreaking ceremony of LG Chem’s battery plant in Holland Michigan. This plant will be capable of building enough lithium-ion cells for about 50,000 plug-in hybrids per year, one of which is the Volt. Ford has just announced it will also source lithium-ion cells from LG Chem for its upcoming Ford Focus Electric which. These cells will eventually also come from this plant.
GM has stated that the media briefing will provide the following three details:
1. A “major consumer initiative”
2. “Details on the validation and testing of the Chevrolet Volt’s lithium-ion battery ”
3. Details on “the start of regular production”
Information will be announced by Tom Stephens who is GM’s vice chairman of Global Product Operations and Micky Bly who is GM’s executive director of Global Electrical Systems.
It might be fun to speculate what great news we will be hearing. Sources tell GM-Volt the consumer initiative is indeed Volt-related and the Detroit News has reported GM will be releasing the terms of the Volt’s battery warranty.
Stay tuned to this site and we will provide all the details later in the day, including a webchat with Volt vehicle line executive Doug Parks and Volt marketing director Tony DiSalle.
Exciting times folks.
Source (GM)
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:05 am)It’s alive. Go Volt!!!! Can’t wait to hear production has started
Soon enough 3 months goes quick
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:08 am)1. A “major consumer initiative” = Project Driveway – Volt edition? Please GM? Just for a few months…
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:27 am)Maybe a price announcement? That’d be cool, and it is getting about time…
+4
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:02 am)I’m definitely MOST curious about the major consumer initiative! Seems like they’d be cutting a project driveway initiative way too short time-wise, but even a short one that get’s the wheels on the road and the vehicles actually selling themselves would be an incredible move.
I have MY BOTH HANDS RAISED TO VOLUNTEER (which makes typing VERY difficult).
Naturally I have to be away from keyboard all day tomorrow (Murphy’s Law), but I’ll just hope that there isn’t some sort of first come, first served proviso. Michael, if there IS something time sensitive please call my cell (or sign me up as my proxy!). Actually, call me when you hear, ok? TIA.
EXCITING TIMES!
Good thing I couldn’t sleep (it’s 2 a.m. here now.)
Come on GM, reward your zealots!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:05 am)Well, SHOOT. 4 hours until the alarm goes off and zero chance of actually sleeping. It’s a nice kind of angst though (lol).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:18 am)I’m thinking they will announce the price, options, warranty, etc. I am very excited about the information on their findings with the longevity of the Volt’s battery cells.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:25 am)My #4 post was only supposed to have one sign-off. Typing with my elbows is problematic!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:34 am)I live in the Fraser Valley of British Columbia, Canada and would almost kill to have one for a “Project Driveway” in September when my wedding is going to take place. The wedding and the reception are about 30 km apart. Out of town relatives will be in town a few days prior so the Volt can be used for giving local tours and free positive (no pun intended) Volt publicity. After the wedding, we’re heading out to Vancouver Airport (about an hour away from home) to start our honeymoon, so the range extender would be perfect.
The perfect car for the perfect day. Heck, it’s so perfect, I’m even planning on wearing GREEN with my suit that day!
Awwwwwww.
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:43 am)Hey! No fair playing the “I’m getting married” card! (lol) (and why would you spend you honeymoon at an airport)? For the opportunity, *I’d* end my 38 year old marriage and remarry With fold-down seats, we could even spend the honeymoon IN the Volt! (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:39 am)Even the mere possibility of a GM price announcement has perked my interest. Please don’t tease me…
Here’s hoping for a pre-rebate price of $33,500, post-rebate, $26,000. Gentlemen, lay your bets.
George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!!
+11
Jul 14th, 2010 (3:10 am)This just in:
GM announces the sound the Volt will make when it approaches a Leaf stranded on the side of the road. The Volt will borrow the voice of Nelson from the Simpson’s:
Heh ha…..heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….heh ha….
Jul 14th, 2010 (3:25 am)Lyle – thanks for posting the info which keeps us up to date. Your website has an impressive amount of cutting edge info on GM’s efforts with their Voltec technology.
Gary – Congrats on getting married. Hope you get that new Volt that you want.
Cheers!
Jul 14th, 2010 (3:45 am)(SIGH) Less than 90 minutes until the alarm goes off, and here I sit, “staying tuned”. 4:44 a.m. (Hee-youge sigh). I need another hobby (g).
Oh yeah, congrats to Gary on the nuptials (whoopi) (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (3:51 am)Hmmm, I don’t know about the major consumer initiative, but they’re going to say the batteries are working great! (Otherwise why would they say anything at a press conference months before the rollout?
They may officially promise the 10 year warranty since it’s at the battery plant.
And they will also say production is on track for the November release with no more targeted (eh, or possibly a few more to support the expanded rollout areas) but they’ll continue to promise upside to their manufacturing ability should the need arise.
I’ll bet no pricing information is forthcoming, at this particular announcement.
Hmmm, I wonder if the major consumer initiative is something like free chargers for the first X many purchasers.
Anyway, I guess I’m not expecting anything Lyle hasn’t scooped already
but we shall see!
I also want one of those cargo robots. Way cool.
-26
Jul 14th, 2010 (3:58 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 14th, 2010 (4:13 am)I am also away from the computer during the day Wednesday and Thursday, sorry.
I plan to read the transcript of the webchat when I get home from work.
Jul 14th, 2010 (4:25 am)No problem. Thanks for the heads up. I guess I’ll wait until I get home to find out what’s new and exciting. (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+19
Jul 14th, 2010 (4:48 am)As tempting as it may be to honk the horn and wave (maybe even middle finger extended) to the poor Leaf owner, the VOLT driver will pull over and give the stranded sap a ride. During that ride, nothing will be said. Experiencing the technology of the VOLT will speak volumes to the dejected Leaf owner.
+3
Jul 14th, 2010 (4:56 am)Everything that I have read from GM suggests that the battery pack is performing better than expected. I’m sure this adds to GM’s comfort factor.
Combine this with the fact that GM can monitor the battery pack condition with OnStar, do a battery pack exchange, and repair/restore the pack to new condition; it would seem that the battery pack is not as risky as once envisioned.
This is a key factor for Volt success, the battery warranty.
+4
Jul 14th, 2010 (5:09 am)So maybe they’ll announce an AER of 50!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 14th, 2010 (5:15 am)Here’s hoping that #10 George’s price prediction is in Canadian dollars!
Here’s also hoping #15 Wang Hung Lo’s prediction is not only true, but becomes the basis for a 100 mile Volt with one free battery rebuild if needed, within 10 years.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (5:31 am)Later, all. Be kind to each other.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (5:47 am)At the risk of getting labeled negative by Grumpy, I am going to bet there will not be a price announcement, and when it is announced the will price it in the upper $40K range to maybe even lower $50K range.
1) Low Volume / High Demand.
2) Majority of target market is California which means $12,500 credit; $52K – $12.5K = $39.5K
3) Avoid “scalping on E-bay” as there will be people willing to pay higher cost. (See #1).
4) Can justify because there are easily over 10,000 people that can afford the high cost.
5) Can claim initial high cost helps cover R&D and funds future R&D which will reduce cost.
That is my bet… I could always be wrong.
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (5:52 am)“Ford has just announced it will also source lithium-ion cells from LG Chem for its upcoming Ford Focus Electric which. These cells will eventually also come from this plant.”
Ford knows that GM spent years evaluating batteries and concluded these were the best. So why not follow the leader? Also Ford knows if they buy from the same supplier then there will be less available for the Volt, thus limiting production. This could be the real reason behind Tony DiSalle’s 30k 2012 Volt production quote.
I hope that LG Chem has provided considerable expansion capability into that plant so production can be ramped up in a hurry if required.
+7
Jul 14th, 2010 (6:00 am)I really don’t think Leaf owners will be stranded that much. Instead, they’ll adapt to the limitations of the car. In other words, they’ll:
a) use their other car for longer trips
b) use their other car on very cold days
In other words, Leaf owners will still use a fair amount of gasoline.
This doesn’t really bother me, as the Leaf will obviously save a lot of gas over a regular car, and we need to save all the gas we can.
What bothers me is the smug attitude of some future leaf owners that say they won’t use gas, when they know that’s really not true.
Jul 14th, 2010 (6:20 am)As I understand it, many different Li/Ion chemistry variations can be produced on the same machines. So Ford may may request a different Li/Ion chemistry than GM and still use the same LG plant.
The Li/Ion manufacturing capability LG has in South Korea is considerable, so if the new LG plant in Michigan can’t handle the volume, they can always get more cells from South Korea in the short term. In the long term, I believe LG will need to expand capacity in their Michigan plant.
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (6:33 am)I think they will announce that a next generation battery will be used in teh initial Volt roll-out:
1. higher AER
2. higher peak power output and regen capture
3. better warranty
4. lower weight
5. ability to replace individual cells and/or refurbish
+3
Jul 14th, 2010 (6:44 am)Unlike consumer electronics, most people expect car prices to stay the same. So if GM comes out with a high price initially, most people will completely write off the Volt and not bother checking prices later.
In other words, pricing the Volt high initially would be a really bone-headed move by GM, as it would tend to lower the profitability of the Volt over the next 10 years. But making business decisions for the long term doesn’t seem to be something the old GM was good at, so I’m not sure the new GM will be much better. We’ll see.
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (6:53 am)Dude where have you been? There is no way the Volt is going to be in the low 50K range. If it breaks the 40’s ill be shocked. Yes due to demand they could all be 60k and GM will still sell them but what about after the early adopters are all quenched. You think GM is gonna find alot of guys looking to pay 50K for a 4 seater (civic sized) car?
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say the Grump would call this a negative comment.
I heard that Nissan Leaf was only gonna get you 10 miles on a full charge…….. That’s how dumb it sounds when you say the Volt will be in the low 50’s.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:00 am)Mom.., Daddy… are we almost there yet?
-3
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:00 am)As stated in my comment, upper $40s – lower 50s. Remember, the $7.5 K fed and $5k California cuts cost below $40K for the buyer in Callie…. That’s my bet and I could be wrong.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:03 am)Yes Johnny we are almost there…… go to sleep now and when you wake up you will be in heaven…….
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:06 am)1. GM already told us they won’t use advances in battery technology to increase AER. I don’t have the link handy, but you can use the gm-volt.com search feature to find it.
2. Higher peak power usually goes with higher AER.
3. Actually, GM recently said future generations of the Volt may lose the liquid cooling feature and decrease the warranty to save cost. This may be in response to the cheaper Leaf pack design. You can use the gm-volt.com search feature to find this article as well.
4. Yes, GM has said they will use advances in battery technology to reduce size and weight while maintaining the 40 miles AER.
5. GM told us a long time ago that users and service technicians won’t be able to service individual cells. Rather, the whole pack will be replaced and sent back to a central facility for refurbishing.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:06 am)Guys, it is getting close to launch. I don’t think that GM is going to change the specs this close to launch. Something related to chargers would be logical. I doubt that they will announce anything about production volume beyond battery volume.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:19 am)I honestly have no idea what they’ll announce. A Chevrolet Volt Presidential Limo? That’d be sweet. Probably need at least 2 packs though.
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:21 am)LOL, +1.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:25 am)From the article:
GM has stated that the media briefing will provide the following three details:
1. A “major consumer initiative”
What could possibly be more important than the price?
People will take one look at the price of the car, and if they don’t like it, simply walk away.
If this car is priced for the masses, GM will have a runaway hit on their hands. I believe this is
every car manufacturer’s dream, isn’t it?
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:33 am)My other guess is a 10 year warranty that states 80 percent efficiency on the battery after 10 years or 3650 charge cycles. I’m sure the computer will remember how many times it’s been plugged in and charged completely.
-2
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:35 am)Check out this new video from setamericafree.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JE51qWLa20
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:38 am)GM has previously stated a 10 year 150,000 mile warranty for the full 40 miles of all-electric range.
Specifically, GM says they will play with the points at which the charger shuts off and the ICE turns on in order to maintain 8kWh of usable battery over the life of the car. Here’s an example of how that might happen:
VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) …… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at …… 80% ….. 82% …… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ………….. 30% ….. 27% …… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh …………….. 8 ………… 8 ………….. 8 …………. 8
-15
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:39 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 14th, 2010 (7:39 am)Phase One Complete ???
Price announcement
Battery Warrant
Production Date Announcement
Other Goodies
Phase Two
Production Starts
Phase Three
Delivery!!
Note:
GM/Chevy has stated there would be a lot of information about the VOLT in July and it looks like they are right! )since they are making it :+])
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (8:03 am)1. A “major consumer initiative” ????????
Maybe they’ll be announcing the MSRP!
Maybe they’ll be taking pre-orders and deposits!
Maybe they’ll be offering 2009 and 2010 GM owners some customer appreciation Volt perk!
Maybe they’ll be saying the Volt will be available October 1, 2010!
Maybe all the above!
Maybe I’ll get a heart attack guessing and waiting!
NPNS!
-13
Jul 14th, 2010 (8:10 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (8:13 am)So comical.
+3
Jul 14th, 2010 (8:21 am)I agree 100 percent. And as much as we hope, batteries aren’t the same as semi-conductors. Moores law isn’t going to apply. We’ll be lucky if the batteries are 30 percent cheaper in 5 years. What they do have right with the Volt though is the long lasting pack, and just enough to take the driver where they need to go most days. If I drove only 20 miles a day and that made my Volt 4 grand less, I’d probably buy that version. As every other car maker is scared to even attempt an E-Rev and trying to make cars with huge battery packs. GM will have this vessel perfected and proven.
I also commend GM on releasing this car exactly on schedule. As I’ve seen from Tesla, Fisker, and others it’s not easy.
Good Job Guys!!
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (8:32 am)1. A “major consumer initiative”
I am hoping for a pre-order process such as a lottery so that the early Volts are not just
distributed to the rich and famous.
2. “Details on the validation and testing of the Chevrolet Volt’s lithium-ion battery ”
I am hoping this announces that a second generation battery with more power and longevity
will be ready for the launch of “regular production.”
3. Details on “the start of regular production”
I am hoping that the start of regular production begins in October, 2010 and that the rate of production will provide more than 4000 Volts for sale in 2010.
Well a I guy can hope, can’t he.
Jul 14th, 2010 (8:35 am)How’s that? If you use more power, the AER goes down.
The motor can handle more power (don’t know about the controller) so if the battery puts out more power, the car will have higher output to the wheels. (I was going to say higher performance, but, in EV land ‘performance’ means different things than 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.)
The reverse of that is that regen could be optimized so that more energy is captured. IF the battery can handle it.
Most of these little tweaks are software, so, I’m not talking about a redesign only a better battery out of the gate.
Jul 14th, 2010 (8:41 am)Great news, thanks, Lyle,
If my work allows it, I’ll be tuned all day long even during the fireworks of the 14th of July (my neighbors are French and they never forget the commemoration of the French revolution and of the republic)
JC NPNS
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (8:50 am)2. “Details on the validation and testing of the Chevrolet Volt’s lithium-ion battery ”
I’ll be curious what they have to say about testing. Piecing together bits of information that they’ve disclosed previously made it sound like they might only be able to QC 20-30 packs per day. That is a small number, but it does line-up with the numbers they’ve been citing for Volt production through 2011, I believe.
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:01 am)This should go into the Volt handbook as common courtest to all other BEV drivers
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:13 am)OT maybe someone has asked this….
The new patented EcoMotors engine….. Wonder if it will make it in the VOLT?
Talk about a very light 100 MPG engine and electricity in one car!!!!! Now this would be a serious range extender.
http://www.engineeringtv.com/video/Opposed-Piston-Opposed-Cylinder
+3
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:13 am)Random thread hijack. I’ve been getting some emails about how I did in the WSOP…or why I have disappeared from the face of the earth the last 2-3 weeks, just figured I would get ahead of the curve.
Made a decent run in the Main Event, in the end I got obliterated by Johnny Chan (on national TV no less-WSPN)…much to the delight of my ‘friends,’ lol. Not sure if the link will work, but the episode should air sometime in late august/early september if it makes the cut.
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:16 am)My bet. Battery pack working better than thought, more space available so they will guarantee 40 mile AER no matter what.
The software will adjsut to your driving and allow a width of SOC and once the ODO reaches 40, Ice..no matter what.
40 mile AER between charges.
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:21 am)While knowing the AER would be absolutely great, during my conversation with Tony at Criswell in Gaithersburg on the 3rd it seemed that he was saying that an announcement by GM concerning MPG and AER would wait for the government to establish their methodology. I’m guessing they don’t want any more “230 MPG” issues.
On this topic, Lyle- have you attempted to reach out to the government (EPA I believe) to see when they expect to announce their methodology for determing the MPG/AER of EREVs/EVs? While they might not give you the scoop on the actual figures for the Volt or Leaf, they might let you know when they plan on announcing the figures.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:29 am)er that should read ESPN not WSPN
+3
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:35 am)Big bird…Snuffy already put his deposit down and is an early adopter…Bert and Ernie too.. although the count is only going to visit the plant to watch them roll off the line…
One..Two…ten thousand! TEN…THOUSAND Volts !!! AHAHAHAHAH
(I love to count the Volts!!)
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:36 am)Thanks Statik. Sorry to hear about the loss.
Let us know when it is on TV, if you can.
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:38 am)LIKE! Sometimes SILENCE ……. thunders volumes.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:38 am)Actually there are some noteworthy people who have predicted battery trends.
Elon Musk observed that battery energy density has increased at an average rate of 8% to 9% per year, and he see this continuing.
http://www.newsweek.com/2008/07/11/a-tesla-in-your-future.html
So using “Musk’s law”, in 5 years we should see a 50% improvement in range with the same size and weight battery pack. But since GM has said they won’t use advances in battery technology to increase range, instead we should see a 50% decrease in battery size and weight, which probably means a 5-seat version of the Volt in 5 years.
As for battery prices, that’s a whole different story. Advances in battery technology won’t affect price that much. What really affects price is mass production, and the changes in manufacturing techniques that occur with mass production.
All of the prototype battery packs for the Volt were made by a company called Compact Power Inc. (CPI). The CEO of this company, Dr. Prabhakar Patil, gave us some detailed info on Volt battery pack pricing here:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02/profile-li-ion.html#more
Specifically, he quoted a price of $1000 per available kWh. Note that in the comments leading up to this quote, he made it clear that he was talking about:
a) the available kWh, not total kWh
b) the price for the whole pack and not just the cells
So it follows that the Volt’s battery pack costs around $8000 (8 available kWh * $1000/available kWh)
In the same interview, Dr. Patil said that battery prices will be cheaper by a factor of 2-4 over the next 5-10 years. So using “Patil’s Law”, we should expect the Volt’s battery pack to cost $4000 in 5 years.
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:39 am)Negative:
Of great. Now the Volt has to share the battery bottleneck with a competing BEV.
Positive:
(Ad) “Our batteries are great; even Ford agrees! They use them too!”
Observation:
Is there any greater proof of the influence the Volt has already had on the industry?
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:50 am)hi Statik… typing this from a volcano view room at the Mirage. Hope to see the video replay of the event in late Summer.
Wife and I talked abount the Volt on the drive over to Vegas. Our next drive across the desert may very well be electric.
=D-Volt
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:51 am)Recently GM said individual cells could be replaced.
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:51 am)Think I’ll just wait and see what actually gets announced. There’s not enough new here to make any guesses with.
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:58 am)So, Lyle; will there be a new post by 2:00 with a live link, or another item later today outlining what was said?
Jul 14th, 2010 (9:59 am)Larger capacity batteries have both more energy (kWh) and more available peak power (kW). You can pick one or the other, or use a little of both.
Yes, if you drive like a maniac, you’ll have less range, but the point is that a larger capacity battery will have more instanious power if and when you need it. Conversely, smaller batteries generally have worse acceleration and less range.
Yes, a larger capacity battery generally has lower internal resistence, which means it can take more power from regenerative braking. In other words, more peak power both in and out of the battery.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:04 am)Chan seems to be running well now, so that hand probably will get aired for sure…I’ll put up a youtube video of my humilation then, lol.
Trip was good overall, got a lot of quality players at my table throughout the tournament (Chris Ferguson-who also was in the room ajoining mine, Gabe Kaplan, Demidov, etc), and had a good time with my friends. What else can you ask for? Besides the 8.9 million of course…and maybe less days over 110 degrees.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:10 am)I hope the battery does in fact come with some sort of dedicated warranty. 10 years sounds like a start. I guess one question that can’t be answered is how long will these batteries last? Unlike most Americans who trade in their cars like shoes, we tend to keep cars till’ the wheels fall off. I still have my 96′ Tacoma I bought in high school. My Wife owned a 17 year old Civic before we inherited her Dad’s 02′ Prius. I’m crossing my fingers that the battery in the Prius will- in Toyota’s words- “Last the life of the car”, whatever that’s supposed to mean. 10 years for us is basically just getting the car broken in.
GM to my understanding has said the battery coming with the Volt “should” last 10 years. I guess that’s ok. But if they wind up lasting-say 15 years or more, that would be fantastic.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:17 am)I’m sure we will see customized “stretch” Volt limos. The cool way to go to the Hollywood award shows.
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:19 am)If the stats saying 50% of Leaf buyers are Prius owners is true, then many Leaf drivers are likely to use less gas than Volt buyers, depending on the Volt’s CS mpg. For this reason alone, to me it’s really important to see the Volt CS mpg be fairly close to (or better than!) the Prius, otherwise the Leaf starts to look more attractive.
The reality is that 40 miles per charge isn’t enough a lot of the time, which means the Volt will burn gas at times in my day to day driving. 70+ miles really does cover all but the most exceptional cases of my day to day driving, especially with some opportunity charging. If I can rent a Prius or similarly efficient vehicle for long trips I could come out ahead owning a Leaf. Add in that Washington state is working on installing charging stations along I-5 and I-90 and in a few years even mid-length trips (150 miles with one charge stop? 200 with 2?) might be possible in the Leaf if I’m not in a hurry. It definitely could be possible for the Leaf to go anywhere along the I-5 / I-90 corridor in Washington and northern Oregon from my home in the Seattle area.
I’m still undecided on which I buy. I currently have deposits on both the Leaf and Volt (Volt will be an out of state purchase from California). It will come down to which car actually becomes available first and what the actual (marked up) costs end up looking like, plus what CS mpg is. All else being equal (unlikely) the tie-breaker is the Volt’s better looks
. Either way, I hope to reduce my use of auto gas by at least 80% in the next year.
…Jason
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:20 am)The battery will fall off in its ability to hold a charge. It is a 16KW battery but only 8KW is used. So as it falls off over the 10 years it should still have 8kw at the 10 year mark. Then over the next 10 years it will fall off to zero. So perhaps at year 15 it will only have 4kw usable and you can still drive 20 miles electric.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:22 am)We could hear that, based on testing, there is no longer any need to build in the cost of a second battery into the Volt’s MSRP. If the Detroit News is correct, the warranty announcement would also figure into this.
This could be merely a fleshing out of the upcoming Volt ad campaign announced yesterday.
We have our up days and our down days here, but frankly I’m a little surprised by all the flagrant optimism in the comments. I guess we were due for it, lol …
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:34 am)I guess I missed that. Do you have a link?
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:34 am)I would be extremely surprised if GM announced Volt pricing today. Just not like them to do it so early in the cycle. I hope they do actually have something worthwhile for Volt fans to announce and we all will have “highs” and not “lows” after the announcement.
Good luck Tagamet. After not sleeping you will need it.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:36 am)Wow. If GM offers a 150,000+ mile warranty for the Volt’s battery, it’s going to be AWESOME. That will take away a MAJOR objection that a lot of people might have when they are shopping for their Volt. A super durable, highly reliable battery with a great warranty is excellent news. GM will have problems keeping the Volt in stock in 2011 … especially if GM does a great job with the marketing and advertising for it.
I hope GM has some more surprises for us too. I was hoping that GM could program the Volt powertrain to go 0-60 mph in 7 seconds (or better) when it’s in Sport mode. 0-60 in 7 seconds should be PLENTY of acceleration for most people. That’s the kind of acceleration you’d see from V-8 cars like the Camaro about 10-15 years ago.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:36 am)I figured you were there and was hoping you would do well. Didn’t watch because watching card games on TV is not my thing. Would be great to see a clip though. Maybe you could post one — of a winning moment of course!
Congrats on the good run!
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:37 am)Hey Statik, play a lot on Pokerstars? I used to play a lot under the name Flower8. I’ve played about 8 thousand sit n gos on pokerstars alone. Got a little burnt out. Thought about flyin out there this year but passed.. Maybe next.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:38 am)OK, let’s run some numbers on that.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Leaf/Prius …………… 27
Volt ……………………… 37
Prius …………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
So the combination of a Leaf and a Prius as a second car saves 10 gallons of gas a year over the Volt.
Assumptions:
Volt: 40 miles all-electric range, 50 mpg thereafter
Leaf/Prius: trips longer than 100 miles = 50 mpg
Typical driving pattern:
• 30 days at 8 miles per day
• 50 days at 16 miles per day
• 240 days at 30 miles per day
• 30 days at 60 miles per day
• 3 days at 450 miles per day
11,390 total miles per year
More info here:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/GallonsPerYear.xls
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:50 am)Another thing to look at is longevity / resale value. It will be interesting to see how the Leaf battery warranty compares with the Volt.
As for the CS mpg, I don’t think it will be a big factor. For example, with a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt – 50 MPG ……… 37
Volt – 45 MPG ……… 41
Volt – 40 MPG ……… 46
Prius …………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
One other thing to consider, GM has said that the 2012 model Volt may be FlexFuel. If so, then E85 could change the amount of gasoline used by the Volt to less than 7 gallons per year.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:51 am)EV-1 owners were stranded … but not because the battery went flat. More like the wheels came off, literally. Or like Lyle there was a problem with the electronics. Expect the same with the Volt and the Leaf. The notion that these cars won’t have any problems is unrealistic.
Not sure about the gas usage. I wouldn’t use the Volt for a long trip because of its size. (I have friend who drives a Prius to LA but I think that’s crazy). Overall my guess is that I’d use less gas with the Leaf but it wouldn’t be a significant difference since I wouldn’t use much with the Volt. For me both cars qualify for HOV lanes so they’re both good. (I don’t really need to use the HOV lane but being able to use the HOV “on ramp” would be a big time saver.)
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:56 am)I read two things in the first two paragraphs that turned out not to be true..
Musk saying “a $100,000 sports car being produced in quantities of about 1,800 a year.”
They’ve only made a little over 1000 since inception. “Our second product is a sedan that is about half the price and will be produced in late 2010 in 20,000 units a year.’ We know that’s not gonna happen.
I’d like to know if 8 or 9 percent pertains to Li Ion batteries or say the last 20 years from Lead Acid to current batteries. 8 to 9 percent would mean the Volt could double it’s range in less than 7 years. I don’t buy it.
I’m a pretty optomistic person, and I really really hope he’s right on that point. I just don’t think Li Ion will be doubled in ten years. Perhaps Lithium Air will be figured out by then. I’ll still buy the car that takes me 40 miles a day and then has a gas tank, unless quick chargers are at every gas station.. Could happen.
Jul 14th, 2010 (10:59 am)Are you gonna buy a Volt Don C?
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:04 am)If we were to buy a Volt ( probably not because I’m a cheap SOB) we would absolutely max the car out daily. We drive 80 miles A DAY, thus the battery would get depleted every single day. I would imagine this will greatly reduce the longevity of the battery. Still- if GM promises a 150,000 mile overall warranty, that’s a great piece of news, especially for those of us with unforgiving commutes.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:06 am)Porsche Boxster price range exactly? When the prices of the two vehicles get reduced by about $15,000 for each one, I will be looking to buy one of each
Seriously, what will the next version of the Volt be called, at what price and when will it be released? This price guess puts the car in very rare territory. And most will say, Ah yes the Volt, nice! Never bothering to look up prices – because if you have to ask, you can’t afford this one.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:12 am)Only sold a little over 1100 since inception. It’s nice they have the little Apple styled boutiques, but they need people that can actually sell cars.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:13 am)The article is 2 years old, so some of this has become inaccurate, but 8-9% is a long-term historical figure, so that hasn’t changed.
At 8.5%, I calculate around 9 years to double battery energy density. That seems about right to me.
And again, GM has said they won’t increase the Volt’s AER, but rather decrease the size, and weight of the pack as battery technology advances. This makes sense since the vast majority of people drive less than 40 miles on most days. And personally, I would rather have a 5-seat EREV-40 than a 4-seat EREV-60.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:15 am)I’m not there yet either with the batteries doubling in 10, but I sure hope so.
I want to add something to what you said, then I can agree with you.
“I’ll still buy the car that takes me 40 miles a day and then has a gas tank, unless quick chargers are at every gas station….if the battery range is a few hundred miles.
I sure as hell am not stopping every 40 miles for a “fill up”. Not a 100 miles neither. (on a trip that is)
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:18 am)Yup, and this is going in the wrong direction if you ask me.
I wonder if the success of the LEAF will help GM change their minds on this one.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:18 am)No, me either. If I didn’t have an I.C.E. I’d want at least a 200 mile, real world battery.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:19 am)Very smart move for Ford. It validates all of the work done by GM… plus it means there will be a LOT of batteries out there so the chance of an orphan in the future is nil.
A WIN for Ford, GM, and, most important, us… the customers of either brand
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:27 am)OK, let’s run some numbers on that.
Let’s say you use a Honda CRV at 27 MPG for long trips. With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Leaf / CRV…………….. 50
Volt / CRV……………… 62
Prius / CRV ………….. 251
CRV ……………………… 422
20 MPG car …………. 570
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:27 am)I don’t know how big of a win this is for us.
LG Chem won’t have any competition for the batteries.
GM and Ford will be dependent on LG Chem, who could simply charge whatever price they want. Does anyone else see this possibility?
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:29 am)You were right about the math, I think it’s 10 percent will double ya at 7 years, I was mixed up. I’d rather have the 5 seat 40 mile as well, I think this will be the first thing they try to re-engineer with the Volt. Thinking about it though. I’ve very rarely had 5 people in my car.
My biggest concern is here in Florida you almost always have to have that A.C. on full blast in the summer, especially if the cars been in the sun. For that reason alone I’d like GM to maybe up the battery to provide 50 miles but still market it as an E-Rev 40.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:40 am)The EV-1 and Mini-E were never intended to be mass production vehicles that you could buy, so yes these were inherently unreliable.
GM’s engineers have done an exceptional job to insure the Volt will be reliable, but as always I’m sure there will be a few minor problems in the first year.
As for the Leaf, I believe the lack of liquid cooling in the battery pack will significantly decrease longevity. If you have to replace the pack in 4-5 years, that’s a huge hit on maintenance costs, and I’m sure that will affect the resale value as well.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:43 am)How far do you typically drive on most days? I think the Volt will go around 32 miles with the AC on max.
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:46 am)I would love to hear a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty on the battery…. and maybe plans to offer future battery varients in VOLT Gen2 like Apple does with mac-books:
– 40 AER / 400 mi range (getting optimistic!)
– 20 AER / 300 mi range – less expensive, very local driving
– 80 AER / 300 mi range – more expensive, longer commute
Its exciting seeing that many battery packs all set to go in the photo of the plant!
Everyone on THIS site wants (and deserves!) a new VOLT…. but if GM is smart, they must realize that there is no way to meet all the pent-up demand…. and they must be asking themselves ‘How do we capture as much as we can?’
Wild guess on the “major consumer inititive” relating to VOLT: GM must internally sense there is far greater demand for the VOLT than they can reasonably expect to build for the first couple of years…. thus they will announce some type of ‘buy now and get a VOLT later’ incentive that they can offer across the country. Consider ‘buy a Cruze in Sept 2010 and somehow get a voucher for a VOLT in Sept 2012′. Maybe even some type of guaranteed trade-in value.
Go GM. Go VOLT. Bring it on!!!
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (11:55 am)Without pricing that’s a hard question to answer.
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:03 pm)The lack of active cooling is the biggest obvious drawback to the Leaf. On the maintenance side, the Leaf should have an advantage simply because the drive is much simpler so there are fewer things that can go wrong. As for needing to replace the battery, that’s what the very attractive lease is designed to avoid. Definitely the way to go.
If you look at the JD Powers surveys Nissan and GM have comparable reliability ratings. They’re both good but the Leaf and the Volt are going to have a lot of new technology, and no amount of testing is going to flush out all the problems. Just ask Apple about its antenna on the new iPhone.
-1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:04 pm)A 20 mile AER version of the Volt may have worse acceleration. Remember that the size of the battery affects both range and instanious power.
Also, there would presumably be less of a buffer for going up hills, so you would have to use mountain mode much more often.
In the end, a parallel hybrid design may be better for very local driving, where people usually drive less than 20 miles per day.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:04 pm)I see it as a plus for now. Most of the buyers the next 5 years are going to be early adopters. 5 years from now GM will have tested many other companies batteries and will know if they want to stay with LG or not. If they find a better battery and they feel they can sell 200,000 Volts the company they choose to do business with will hopefully have that capacity ready.
For now I think it’s good to get Ford in there, it creates more demand for LG’s batteries and probably brings the price down for LG internally, which will enable them to lower prices in the future. The Leaf uses NEC batteries, that will be a lot of batteries there, Tesla uses Panasonic, which bought Sanyo. It’s all about the chemistries, if a superior chemistry comes up GM could have LG make it. But I’m sure at some point with the way the economy is going we’ll open up a battery building factory right here, hopefully in Detroit. Maybe with some M.I.T. nano based chemistry.
The Volt has to be making Toyota sweat. It makes the Prius look like a gas guzzler.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:05 pm)I found the link:
Future Volt Generations Will Offer Cheaper, Smaller Batteries, Not Longer Ranges
http://gm-volt.com/2008/12/24/future-volt-generations-will-offer-cheaper-smaller-batteries-not-longer-ranges/
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:05 pm)Here Here. I’m hoping there is truly good news to come from this. It seems of late they will make an announcement that is intended as good news, but the outcome is weeks and weeks of endless speculation of doom and gloom here.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:06 pm)Are you sure this applies to Li Ion? I mean this pack is already split up in hundreds of cells. Someone else chime in on this if you agree or disagree.
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:10 pm)Yes, well said, +1
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:12 pm)If we could look ahead a decade, we might find that EREV will have a minimum AER of 80 – 100 miles, in order to compete with BEVs at 200 – 300 miles. The cost/size reduction which makes the 300 mile BEV possible also helps to extend the AER of an EREV.
By this time, even the Volt may have a much smaller engine (as we’ve seen here); as batteries advance, they will be capable of many more cycles over their lifetime; allowing the range-extension generator to approach the average (rather than the much higher peak) power requirement. What this means is that the EREV100 may weigh less than the present Volt, while turning in dramatically better CS-mode mpg (whatever that figure turns out to be for Gen I).
This future EREV would therefore be able to take on nearly all in-town commuting on electricity alone, with quickly-refueled range-extension for long distance travel.
IMO I think it will take even longer to make a BEV capable of fulfilling all driving needs (even with a workable system of rapid recharging, there’s still the problem of installing enough chargers everywhere to match the availability of liquid fuel. There also has to be an increase in the electricity supply).
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:15 pm)Yes.
A 20-mile pack would either use half of the same sized cells, or the same number cells with each cell about half the current size. Either way, you’re decreasing the instantaneous peak power (kW) along with the range (kWh).
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:16 pm)Most of these LiIon cells have at least a 1C discharge rating. i.e., if you had a 1Ah cell, you could discharge it at a 1A rate without a problem. So 1C is a good rule to use. From this, it’s pretty easy to determine if any battery pack would be power limited if you know the configuration and voltage. I don’t recall if we’ve been given those details.
Most cells can easily handle a 2C discharge for brief periods of time too, but 1C is nice and convservative, and probably more appropriate for this calculation.
join thE REVolution
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:23 pm)By the time a 20 mile AER version of the Volt appears, it will have batteries much more capable than today’s. The “solid state” battery will be out, for Gen III; I’m guessing in 5 years from now.
I’m hoping that a “Volt SS” model will carry both packs for a higher performance offering (and who cares about 3-across seating in the back of such a car? How many can fit in the back seat of the Corvette?)
(I’d like my longer-range AER Volt with 2 full-size packs even more, but I won’t push it just yet.
)
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:25 pm)Possibly VOLT will roll out a program similar to what was announced yesterday for Corvette’s? Build your own engine for Corvette…. Build your own VOLT! Better go to the “Build a Bear” store at the mall for a little practice!!
http://www.freep.com/article/20100713/BUSINESS01/7130320/1002/rss02
-3
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:28 pm)Interesting how you seem to keep counting out how the Volt driver will be able to keep burning oil in the case the owner “Forgets” or decides to forgo charging because they can. Just like YOU yourself said at post 240…
http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/07/chevrolet-volt-rollout-process/#comment-206848
Did you bother to include that? Shouldn’t that be factor in the equation? That is the reason why everyone states the Volt is so much better, because it can burn oil. Truth to this is that the Volt owner will be more apt to forgo charging, keep burning gas at a rate of “Comparable to a Corolla” yet you fail to ever include this.
So then on a “Typical driving pattern”, which driver will be more apt to continue burning oil? The Leaf owner who is dilligent in charging, understands it and desciplined in it without the ability to burn oil or the Volt driver who can completely forgo charging because they can still continue to burn oil by design for as long as they want whenever they want?
Your numbers are flawed and skewed for the purpose of tilting and over glorifying the Volt for what it is not.
Range Anxiety = Dependence on foreign oil = “EoDEV” (Extended oil Dependence Electric Vehicle) = Volt
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:28 pm)Here’s a link:
http://www.0-60times.com/chevrolet.asp
Volt is a sedan, so, more like Malibu SS (7-sec) would be fine.
My current ride (Magnum R/T Hemi) does 0-60 in 6-sec. It’s pretty fast for a 2-ton station wagon.
It only gets about 16mpg though.
I think that a Volt SS should come in at under 7 seconds, or, it’s pushing the meaning of ‘SS’. A regular Volt in sport mode should be between 7 and 8 seconds imho. I think I saw somewhere that it’s supposed to be around 8 sec.
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:30 pm)First, GM explicitly said they won’t do this.
http://gm-volt.com/2008/12/24/future-volt-generations-will-offer-cheaper-smaller-batteries-not-longer-ranges/
Second, I don’t understand how pure BEVs with greater range would affect an EREVs, since EREVs already have hundreds of miles range.
Note that the Volt’s gas engine is already much closer to average power.
• Volt’s electric motor & battery pack = 150 horsepower
• Volt’s gas engine generator = 75 horsepower
• Power required to drive around 70 miles per hour on level ground = 40 horsepower
But yes, I agree, as time goes on, the gas engine generator will probably get closer to average power requirements.
Yes.
And if you run the numbers, recharging a 300 mile BEV in 10 minutes would take around 500,000 watts, and I believe that much power is inherently unsafe. So rapid recharging may be somewhat of a red herring.
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:31 pm)
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:32 pm)Only if the Volts acceleration requires the full power available from the original pack (very unlikely). If not no. Does any one remember the power available from the pack? The range of available power from CPI’s manganese spinels?
It is a16 kWh pack with 8 kWh available. Peak power requirements for the motor will not necessarily equal what is available from the battery.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:33 pm)A Corolla is a lot cheaper than a Volt, and would give the same results. Show me the person who would be stupid enough to pay an extra $10,000+ for a Volt/Corolla, and I’ll hand you a mirror.
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:34 pm)Something like that. The ICE would be more of a premium sedan but what’s funny is that even at speeds of about 80 MPH I can get MPG in the low 30s even with a big mountain range. Way above the EPA Highway rating. The MPG just seems very dependent on how constant the speed is.
In thinking more on this, maybe I shouldn’t dismiss the possibility of using the Volt for longer drives. For longer trips it’s no so much the space of the sedan as it is the smooth and quiet ride. If the Volt would at least equal this ride then a Volt would would work for longer trips. In this case a Volt and a Leaf would be a winning combination.
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:37 pm)Lol. john1701a is gonna get ya for that!
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:39 pm)For most driving the more important number would be the 0-30 MPH times. Nissan says that the Leaf beats its GTR to 30 MPH, and the GTR gets to 60 MPH in 3.2 seconds or something. Given that those who have driven both the Leaf and the Volt give the Volt the nod on acceleration, I’m thinking the Volt will be fast enough for everything except drag racing.
-6
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:44 pm)Let me refer you back for a propper quote…
“Expectations are that fuel economy will be somewhat above that of the best-in-class standard gas compact car.”
http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/06/chevrolet-volt-highway-ride/
So what idiot would buy a Volt for the same MPG of “Expectations are that fuel economy will be somewhat above that of the best-in-class standard gas compact car.”
What crap MPG for what was supposed to be a 50MPG PHEV.
Wow, you must be glad your tax dollars got flushed down the BK shitpipe to get a car with the “Expectations are that fuel economy will be somewhat above that of the best-in-class standard gas compact car.”
Range Anxiety = Dependence on foreign oil = “EoDEV” (Extended oil Dependence Electric Vehicle) = Volt
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:45 pm)People keep saying that, but, the Tesla S is supposed to be 300 mile range. Although, they quick-charge in 45 minutes. 10 minutes is only 4.5 times faster. (Which seems to be an evolutionary difference, not revolutionary.)
“- 160, 230, or 300 mile range pack
– 45 minute QuickCharge
– 1 minute Battery Swap”
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:46 pm)I understand that. However, I don’t think that what they said extends to what they’ll be forced to do in a decade. Without clicking the link, what I recall is that “cheaper smaller batteries, not longer ranges” was their immediate priority. With an initial Volt which may be costing GM money to sell, this is certainly understandable.
If this continues to be an issue in 10 years, we’ll have a major problem.
There are two parts to this: The first is in the expected battery cost/performance improvements over the next decade. It will be possible to do from both an engineering and a cost standpoint. It is this forecast improvement in battery quality/cost which is driving both longer-range BEVs and longer AER EREVs in this view, not BEVs driving EREVs. What I’m saying is that the same factor will have a similar effect for all EVs.
The second part has to do with something far less logical: Marketing. In a future where both BEVs and EREVs are common, the ability to provide a longer electric range may be seen as a plus by end consumers. In this case, longer-range BEVs may drive perceptions for EREV which result in physical changes in the technology.
And so, if they can (and it helps Sales), why not go for more than the “sweet spot” at 40 miles? There are many sprawling metropolitan areas with long commutes; think of the improvement in good old-fashioned air pollution such an EREV would contribute to!
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:46 pm)The Volt/Leaf debate could be best resolved by the inclusion of an electric PTO (power take-off) option on the Volt. When encountering a stranded Leaf, the Volt could allow the Leaf to plug in to the PTO port for a few minutes while running its ICE and providing just enough of a charge for the Leaf to limp to the nearest charging station.
Volt owners could be the Good Samaritans of the electric car world!
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:47 pm)Extreme fast charging is technologically easy. And financially it’s not a gigantic infrastructure switch like supplying hydrogen coast to coast. It’s just a matter of whether consumers will want to pay for the convenience in large enough numbers to make it worthwhile for entrepreneurs.
For me a 60 mile AER with something other than gasoline burned in a small light range extender would be perfect: Cellulosic ethanol, methanol, NG, propane, hydrogen, fresh ground unicorn horns…
-6
Jul 14th, 2010 (12:51 pm)I think the tax rebates and any rebates for that matter should be restricted to only what is the “useable” battery capacity not just the size of the pack. This ensures that poor inefficient EV’s and wannabe EV’s like the Volt don’t benefit. Why waste tax funds on helping everyone carry around 50% more battery capacity but not use the full available depth and keep lugging the archaiac internal combustion engine around. It’s a waste of energy lugging around 50% more storage dead weight you don’t use plus the internal combustion engine and generator that will be “Off” but will always be “dragged along for the ride”.
Only offer the rebate to cars that regularly use either the 70% to 80% depth of discharge for the entire pack.
If we’re going to save anything, let’s be efficient about it.
Range Anxiety = Dependence on foreign oil = “EoDEV” (Extended oil Dependence Electric Vehicle) = Volt
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:04 pm)It’s 2pm so I just came back to see it the announcement would be live (webcast) anyone have any details?
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:05 pm)Great idea a mechanical transfer! But since they are both electric why not…
And a Leaf driver doing only 20 0r 30 miles of errands that day could recharge a Volt to extend the AER from the grid; or from solar for owners that get their juice from that nuclear plant located about 93 million miles up.
Or a Volt or Leaf owner could extend AER from one of the thousands of chargers to be rolled out in the first adopter regions. Or people could just keep spreading idiotic FUD until Lyle’s great idea becomes useless for anyone serious about making a choice in what to drive next.
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:14 pm)All I can find is this on “chevrolet voltage”
It doesn’t really give the time of the announcement, only the web chat.
+2
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:18 pm)I cant believe I’m replying to you but… for the purpose of clarification
You make it sound like there’s half a battery sitting there doing nothing! It’s not a “spare” and it all gets used (eventually), it’s just that at any given moment only an 8kWh chunk is directly “addressable” and available to be drawing current from to provide vehicle power.
This is possible due to its series-parallel cell arrangment and advanced control system.Think of it like being able to routinely partition and repartition a hard drive.
WopOnTour
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:19 pm)I am completely against using animals on the Endangered Species list.
How about using ex-wives or mother-inlaws instead. They seem to be a renewable resource.
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:19 pm)Does anyone get what the “major consumer initiative” is?
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:24 pm)You’ll never get Dave G. to agree to that, lol.
The system would include batteries capable of taking fast charges, don’t forget. They don’t exist yet. The system also includes standardization for EVs to all use the same kind of charger. This will all add time before the actual penetration of the technology begins.
Well that’s certainly true.
… because the Gov’t has run out of money to do something like “the electric highway” in Washington State all over the country.
We’ll be forced to depend on those entrepreneurs. Trouble is, will any put their financial heads on the metaphorical chopping block before there are long-range BEVs to recharge? In the nearer term (10 – 20 years), EREV will be a compelling counter to the long-range BEV. Yes, 200 – 300 mile BEVs will be offered. Question is, how will they sell verses an EREV80 – 100?
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:25 pm)Rashiid,
At the moment I’m enjoying being bitter, angry and disillusioned. Please do not try to cheer me up with these pie in the sky ideas about “making the world a better place.”
Statik, I’m gonna assume you didn’t clear this one before going live.
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:30 pm)lol….. +1
I don’t often give those but that deserved probably more….lol
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:32 pm)It’s unlikely in the extreme that GM would expose the battery pack to additional uses beyond their testing, especially given the likelihood that we’re about to hear the announcement of an 8 year, 100K mile warranty on it.
However, I’ve long thought that the range extender ought to be accessible as a general-purpose generator for things like emergency power, camping and construction sites. This wouldn’t threaten the fragile battery at all, and would add value both directly and indirectly in terms of marketing: The Volt is an EV with a Generator (show generator powering a house).
GM could offer an optional device (containing a transformer) which would attach to the charge port via cable, the controller which normally drives the motor would generate 60 hz instead to energize the transformer (the Volt would/should be unable to move while being used as a generator), and you’d attach extension cords to plugs on the device.
I doubt that any physical change would need to be made to the Volt itself, though some firmware would have to be installed to use the power output device.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:35 pm)Yup!!!!
Todays batteries will do just fine; if they are only charged to 40%. Would you want to put up with a shorter lived pack though? That would be a customer concern. Some people don’t change their oil though – figuring it’s too inconvenient and they’ll sell it before it matters? Dunno…folks make a lot of trade-offs that don’t seem too great.
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:36 pm)Hey Lyle, any idea why my post about the warranty announcements got flagged for moderation?
join thE REVolution
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:39 pm)I don’t believe that’s actually the case Wop… There’s only a portion of the capacity used, because discharging below X% or charging above Y% decreases battery longevity. There’s not an idea of two (or multiple) areas of capacity that get used at one time or another.
I’m not saying this negatively though, I think the Volt team’s done a great job with their design. And the AnonymousProxy guy you were responding too is clearly biased in his arguments, as are we, but I think the full spectrum of facts continue to clearly show Volt is the way to go.
I would liken the battery more to a gas tank… Who complains that a gas tank has wasted space because nobody ever uses the full 12 gallons? Nobody, nor should they complain how the Volt battery is architected to maximize lifetime.
join thE REVolution
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:40 pm)LOL and more
Since the battery only fills “half way” there is very little resistance and far less degradation for the initial years.
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:40 pm)I honestly don’t feel I have a bias with these numbers. I haven’t owned a GM car in 25 years. I’m just looking at what’s coming out, and trying to make rational conclusions.
In order to compare the numerous plug-in options coming out, I’ve devised what I believe is a typical yearly driving pattern and entered this on a spread sheet to compare gas consumption:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/GallonsPerYear.xls
I understand this isn’t perfectly accurate, but I do believe it’s a good ballpark estimate for comparing different types of solutions. And in the end, the EPA numbers are just estimates as well. Your mileage may vary.
As for the cases where you forget to plug-in, the point is that these are very infrequent, but they will occur, so I don’t really know how to include that in a ballpark estimate. Also, to compare apples-to-apples, if a pure BEV owner forgets to plug in, they’ll have to use another car anyway, so I don’t see how this can be construed as a bias.
As for pure BEVs, I admit I have a bias against their limitations, but I don’t see how that affects the fuel consumption numbers I’ve posted. The main point is that BEV owners will use other cars for longer trips, and this will consume fuel, so the idea is to get an estimate for that fuel consumption and then compare that to other solutions. Given that posts 78 and 91 have the Leaf coming out on top, I don’t really see how that’s considered a bias against BEVs.
The numbers are what they are. I don’t fudge them.
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:44 pm)…dang It’s just an analogy, but seeing WOT’s history of comments prepare to be swamped by a technological tour de force barrage of info…remember you asked for it!!!!
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:47 pm)I am guessing it is similar to the Corvette announcement yesterday. You can build your own Corvette engine for $X amount. Maybe they are going to let you build your own VOLT.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100713/BUSINESS01/7130320/1002/rss02
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:49 pm)New post:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/07/14/official-chevrolet-volt-battery-warranty-is-eight-years100000-miles/
Jul 14th, 2010 (1:53 pm)I’m not sure SS will follow the Volt into the electric age. With 100% torque available at 0 RPM it’s redundant. Maybe just S or how about ES
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:00 pm)Yes, +1.
Maybe I’m misreading the vibes here, but it seems like many people are starting off with a dream of pure electric vehicles and fast charging stations everywhere, and then evaluating everything based on how it may or may not fit this particular vision of the future.
My dream is energy independence, and I don’t particularly care how we get there. So rather than starting off with a pre-packaged solution, I’m starting with a goal, and seeing how each potential solution works toward that goal.
So far, the best solution I’ve seen is the combination of EREVs and bio-fuels, but that could change as various solutions prove their worth.
My main thought process is that electricity and bio-fuels can both be produced in many different ways, so there’s a high probability that one or more will work well.
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:07 pm)Life is biased, no big deal. Question – where is the chart showing a household with Volt and Leaf where the Leaf is the primary car?
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:08 pm)Yes, LOL, +1.
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:09 pm)Well written
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:12 pm)I haven’t really compared household gas consumption estimates yet. Any suggestions? What households would you compare? What driving patterns for each driver? What kind of overlap? What types of cars?
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:14 pm)Well here’s some details and math to help out.
The Volt has 288 cells each producing 3.6 Volts (potential to create 1036.8 Volts if all of them were “series” connected)
In a 3×96 series-parallel matrix it would produce 345.6 Volts.
These are housed within 9 modules
Each module has 32 cells theoretically creating ~115Volts per module
Combine any 3 modules and you have 345V
It’s a balancing act
WopOnTour
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:19 pm)Hi Lyle: Yes. The big news is 8 years/100,000 miles. And this is the first time I’ve seen an official range – 340 miles. Somewhat disappointing as with a 9 galoon tank I’d expect 400 mile range. So this needs to be clarified. I did go back to the Freedom Drive report linked.
The first leg being Austin-Little Rock 527 miles with one stop reported. That’s decent.
About the prez going to gorgeous Holland, Mich. (Visiting Holland was always special when we’d drydock every Sept-Oct (Stone Age) in Saugatuck) — ask him why the gov waited until the cap was in place before asking basic pressure questions that could’ve been asked and answered way before the capping and now the whole deal is on hold- Its Chu who should be answering questions.
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:25 pm)Use one of the charts you made earlier for a typical driver. In the spreadsheet use the Leaf instead of the Volt, and use the Volt instead of the Corolla.
That is about half a household. Assume the 1.4 left in the household are too young to drive…Never mind, lets just see what the typical driver does with the two cars above in their garage
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:38 pm)You are making a big assumption that just because the Volt CAN drive with a “dead” battery that it will. This assumption does explain a lot of your posts recently, however. I do not believe the chances of forgetting to charge are going to be based on whether the vehicle is a BEV or EREV, however. It will be a function of the person’s memory and routine. The big difference will be the EREV drivers will still get where they are going, the BEV drivers will need to take the day off.
Most people, who spend the extra money on a Volt (or any other future EREV), are likely doing it for the battery range and security that the engine provides.
In my case, I will be surprised to use gasoline more than twice a week, almost always on the weekend. I have been tracking my daily milage for the last 2 months and during weekdays, have gone over 40 miles only twice, and then just barely if I needed to do an errand in the opposite direction. If that was my entire life, the LEAF would work perfectly for me. However, on weekends, (8 weekend days), I have gone over 40 miles 5 times, mostly to the in-laws for ~90 mile round trips. We are now in the summer months where the weekend trips regularly become 250-300 miles. And my vacation will be that same 250 mile round trip with lots of short trips during the week which would all be gas free.
For me, I expect to get that silly 230MPG or better on average for the life of the car. Weekday MPG will be nearly infinite.
For me, the Volt has the advantages of a BEV while not limiting how I use the vehicle.
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:44 pm)It’s BP’s baby – Chu works for BP?
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (2:49 pm)Competition will make a big difference in those decisions. GM won’t be able to say this fits well financially with our aspirations to rule in EREV so we’re sticking to 40 miles AER- if a compelling range of consumer choices is offered by competitors that allows improving battery tech to steal their sales.
+1
Jul 14th, 2010 (3:25 pm)Hi #153 Jeffhre : A recap: (yea yea)
According to the media, pressure tests scheduled for yesterday were placed on hold by the Administration. The official line being it had integrity vs. pressure questions posed to BP — which must be answered before restarting any processes regarding testing. This means all’s on hold — except minor collection.
Now my point you question is this: There isn’t ANY question that couldn’t have been raised in the past few days!
Is it fair considering the really bad timing raising 11th hour questions shutting down all work that this amounts to outrageous showboating by this Administration’s to share glory of plugging the gusher? We’ll never know.
Jul 14th, 2010 (3:37 pm)Grandstanding, avoiding a disastrous blowout or noticing a camera’s red light and a microphone? What’s a politician to do?
Jul 14th, 2010 (3:59 pm)How about this?
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Leaf / Volt …………….. 25
Leaf / Prius …………… 27
Volt ………………………. 37
Leaf / Corolla ……… 39
Prius …………………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car …………. 570
What this chart tells me is this: With either the Volt or a Leaf with a second car, gas consumption is similarly low. To get significantly less gas consumption, you would need to start using bio-fuels together with the Leaf or Volt.
Jul 14th, 2010 (4:41 pm)Thank you