Electric cars not only offer instantaneous torque but continue to provide linear acceleration throughout the driving velocity range. Torque and acceleration are greatest at the low-end and then flatten out as high speeds are reached.
One reporter’s observation of a 67% calibration Volt prototype on the highway brought into question highway performance. As some here may know, I recently had the opportunity to experience a near-final Volt going from 55 to 80 mph ont the highway and although linear felt performance was quite acceptable.
Combustion engine cars operate differently. At higher speeds, if the driver floors the accelerator pedal, the automatic transmission will shift down a gear, engine speed and torque will increase, and the car will accelerate. Among the uninitiated, the lack of this type of responsiveness could disturb some would-be electric car buyers.
As far as I can tell, or know, the Volt does not simulate this experience.
However, according to a test drive from Edmund’s Inside Line, the LEAF does. Apparently Nissan believes it was necessary to reproduce the passing gear experience in its electric car for greatest customer acceptance.
Edmund’s reports the following statement as attributed to Mark Perry who Nissan North American product planning and advanced technology director:
Engineers programmed the electronics to add a bit of power at the very end of the accelerator pedal’s travel, and when you floor the Leaf you do feel a little extra surge – not quite like having a passing gear, but enough to let you know the powertrain is responding to the signal your right foot is sending.
Edmund’s apparently did not get it quite right though with this description per a direct communication between Perry and GM-Volt.
“The (LEAF) electric motor still has sufficient torque to have good passing speed from 55 to 70,” Perry told GM-Volt. There are “no gears or “step down.” With respect to O’Dells comments, “he mixed two pieces of info but intention is correct,” said Perry.
Nonetheless, some other interesting comparisons between the LEAF and Volt were delineated in this review.
The LEAF, as does the Volt, has both a normal braking mode and an eco braking mode which gives the driver a little regenerative drag, allowing the car to be slowed without the brakes. The LEAF, however, has only a normal and Eco power mode (slower) which determines overall driving power. The Volt has a normal and a sports power modes, with the sports mode adding about 20 kw of power. The fact that the Volt has more power and acceleration speed may be part of the reason why GM engineers didn’t think a passing gear simulation was necessary on the Volt. The LEAF motor’s peak power is 80 kw, whereas the Volt’s is 110 kw. The LEAF has a CD of 0.29, the Volt’s is 0.28, the LEAF weighs about 3500 pounds and the Volt 3900 lb due to the presence of the gas engine.
A surprising point of the LEAF review is that Nissan allowed the journalist to take the test car up and down public roads in San Diego, even up to 82 mph. GM has said it is legally “not allowed” to let anyone but GM employees drive Volt prototypes on public roads, and thus all media drives have taken place on pylon-lined parking-lot based test courses. That is everyone expect Jay Leno, who for some reason did get to take the Volt on public roads.
The presence or absence of a passing gear simulation on an electric car is an interesting issue. How important do you think it is?
Source (Edmunds)
+11
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:37 am)When punched, sport mode could automatically be engaged while passing.
I would think “flooring it” would emulate a passing gear, sort of.
How hard could that be for the engineers to implement?
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:39 am)As some here may know, this is a favorite topic of mine.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:40 am)The torque provided is instant (for practical purposes) and relatively constant up to high RPMs. It provides a relatively constant positive force. The problem is that the apposing wind force isn’t constant. As the car accelerates the opposing wind force (wind resistance) grows and it doesn’t grow linearly. This is why the same motor torque, with the same gear ratio will provide much less acceleration at higher speeds.
Lyle, when the Volt was accelerated from 50-80 on your trip to the city, was sport mode on? Is the sport mode button on the dash or the wheel? Not that it matters for me, I’ll always use that mode and self regulate with the accelerator. I’m sure some parents will want to password protect sport mode from their teenage children and the valet.
+6
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:42 am)Tesla Roadster drivers (I, unhappily, am not one) would say it isn’t necessary, describing the passing experience as something closer to teleportation, than typical overtaking. Hopefully the Volt’s acceleration will give adequate confidence for these maneuvers.
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:44 am)On a scale of 1 to 10, probably about 1, if trying to keep the tank full. But user selectable extra power, at the expense of economy, say with a switch activated by pushing the pedal to the floor, would make the car more fun, and could actually be a safety feature.
+5
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:44 am)From the article:
The LEAF, as does the Volt, has both a normal braking mode and an eco braking mode which gives the driver a little regenerative drag, allowing the car to be slowed without the brakes.
In my recent drive up Mount Evans (Colorado’s highest peak), I was admiring the view and not thinking about the Volt. On the way down, however, I was thinking about the regen breaking and how nice it would to not use the brake peddle and let the car hold it self back and regen at the same time.
My 2008 Hyundai Elantra absolutely sucked in the mountains and needed to be downshifted to 3rd to get up I-70 at a reseasonable speed of 55 MPH. I don’t expect the Volt to be the same way.
—
As November gets closer, does anyone else feel the excitement from this car?
+9
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:45 am)Personally I don’t want any “artificial” programming to make me feel like I’m driving an ICE just as much as I don’t want a stupid whooshing noise to let me know I’m moving (or beeping when my prius backs up for that matter).
The way I understand EV’s (correct me if I’m wrong) if I had two volts next to each other with one in sport mode and the other in normal and had the drivers match their acceleration and velocity, the sport mode volt wouldn’t use as much of the accelerator pedal but the fuel economy would be identical to the non sport mode Volt. So in the end it is entirely up to the driver anyway. The various modes are really only there for those who don’t feel they can keep a leash on their lead foot. In all honesty I probably fit into that camp
When I drove the volt in NYC I got to hit the sport mode mid acceleration and you really felt the extra Power. I didn’t get to drive it over 50 MPH but the acceleration felt great for what I test drove.
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:47 am)“and thus all media drives have taken place on pylon-lined parking-lot based test courses. ”
The CNN test drive link I posted yesterday showed a reporter driving on normal roads (albeit within a GM compound) over fairly large distances and using the battery and generator. No cones here. Other traffic passes by occasionially. This was a real test drive.
http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2010/01/10/n_chevy_volt_review.cnnmoney/
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:47 am)Sounds like the Leaf and Volt have quite a bit in common.
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:54 am)I think this kick down mode is in-keeping with Nissan’s goal of making the Leaf “look and feel” ICE-like. They are making some compromises so the Leaf will seem like a conventional car to help during test drives.
-35
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:01 am)(click to show comment)
+15
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:05 am)[Sorry, edit time-out won the "passing-gear race" in my post #2]
During my test drive in NYC this March I asked my GM passenger about this. The response was to ask me to “accelerate aggressively” (on a long straight stretch), then roughly 2/3rds of the way down the straight-away my GM host engaged the Sport Mode button on the dash. While the Volt’s instantaneous response wasn’t “neck-snapping”, it certainly evoked an immediate WOW!!! And I found it to be a very satisfying and jerk-free, positive, re-assuring response as a “passing gear simulation”. In other words, it was MUCH BETTER than a conventional car’s high-revving, jerky behavior as passing gear engages —because the big surge in acceleration was not accompanied by an abrupt increase in motor rev’s or any hesitation, but rather by an instantaneous and very re-assuring surge in power (and of course, acceleration).
I can see NO reason sport mode couldn’t be easily engaged by accelerator position at 50-80mph and I believe GM would be very wise to add this feature (if they haven’t secretly already done so on all final production version Volts!
+7
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:05 am)This is a case where I fully trust the judgement of the GM engineers. Sport mode was not absolutely necessary, but a little something extra. It may get your juices flowing. That is a good thing when you part with $40K. The mountain mode also was a pretty good thing, maybe more practical. And it came (I think) from GM listening to those on this site.
+8
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:06 am)Sadly, I would need two cars if I owned a Leaf.
Once the infrastructure for fast charging (under 10 minutes) and range increases (over 300 miles) that will change. But for now, it will be interesting to see if the Leaf moves beyond a niche market. I think it is too restrictive for most American drivers.
While it is true the Volt has a 9 gallon tank, people do not need to fill it if they don’t want to.
+4
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:09 am)Looking forward to cruise contol without the downshift kicking in. Keep it smooth.
=D-Volt
-34
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:10 am)(click to show comment)
+5
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:13 am)I’ve been feeling that way for about six months. Sometimes it gets hard to wait. I will get worse though before it gets better. My salesman says my order will go to the factory in September, but the car will not come until March. Kind of sounds like the whole country is going to get a crack at it. Actually that would make the wait worthwhile.
+8
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:16 am)9 gallons – 54 pounds OH MY!
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:17 am)#17 BTW, although nothing has been announced, I would not be surprised if Ohio gets Volts before Michigan. In that case I may have a tough decision to make.
-8
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:20 am)At this moment such excitement as there is around here is more from the Leaf than the Volt, as the Leaf likely will be in our area first by a year or more. But there’s not much excitement for either one, as delivery of either is still for us a long way off. That makes the issue a somewhat remote hypothetical about an unknown future time.
Why gm chose to avoid the local early adopters is something I’ll never understand. It could have been gm’s moment to recapture some long lost interest among the import-car community, but for whatever reason, gm has chosen to let that enthusiasm go by. Now the gm car will be 2nd or even 3rd or 4th electric in much of the country.
A lot can happen between now and then. By the time it does, the Volt will be old news.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:21 am)The Volt a an electric car the same as the Leaf. It just happens to have an on-board gas-powered generator. It is not a hybrid in any sense.
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:29 am)Why do you say that? I’d say it is extremely unlikely that Ohio will get Volts before Michigan. Michigan was added to the original list for the homeboys, who are still in Michigan
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:36 am)As long as the Podunk towns in New Jersey get the Volt LAST everything is good. Since Ohio just lost LeBRon they should be awarded early Volt for shure !!!
+43
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:38 am)Both VOlt and Leaf are really good cars for citizen of America and the World. I hope both cars do very well and sell lots so we can start using less oil. I have realized that I have been rude lately and I want to apologize. I have started to understand that some people can only have one vehicle. If that person needs to drive a few hundred miles once a week they might need a car like the Volt.
But they could still drive many many miles on electricity and not use foreign oil.
I think people who don’t want a Volt or Leaf are the only dum dums.
Again I apologize for being rude.
-21
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:41 am)(click to show comment)
+5
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:41 am)What a waste of resources. The only thing that matters is the acceleration, not the sensation of acceleration. How much do you think it cost Nissan to develop this sort of thing?
+13
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:47 am)Correct – it has an onboard generator. But what you dont understand is for most of us it will be the same as any other EV most of the time. I will use the gas engine maybe a few times per year. Being a family of 3 and a 1 vehicle household, it is impractical for me to have to rent a gas car everytime i want to take a 105 mile trip. Another thing you dont consider is that while you are arguing that an EV is somehow signifigantly better than the 25 gallons of E85 or gasoline I will use per year, there are still 10 other americans for each volt solt that will drive their huge pickup trucks and SUV’s until they die, constantly flooring the pedal wasting gas. We are all on the same team here – You should be raging on gas guzzlers not other super efficient vehicles.
+19
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:56 am)Weight
1 gallon of gas 6.35 pounds
9 gallons of gas 57.15 pounds
Leaf battery pack
24 kw 660 pounds 27 pounds per kw
Volts battery pack
16 kw 375 pounds 23.4 pounds per kw
Number of pounds of unnecessary, expensive battery in the Leaf when the average American drives less than 40 miles per day?
285 pounds
That 57 pounds of gas isn’t lookin’ like such a bad thing now is it.
Imagine the weight of the whole other gas car you’ll have to own if you wanna drive out of state for the weekend.
+6
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:01 am)+1 to you.
You hit it right on the money, Pat. Neither of these cars will fit everyone’s needs.
But as time goes on, and the technology gets better, ICE vehicles will go away.
But if I had to guess, I would say 40-50 years in the future. I really hope it will be sooner though.
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:05 am)A lot of assumptions. On the Volt, there just may be a lowspeed gear and a highspeed gear between MGU2 and the wheels, with a conventional torque converter clutch (TCC) between the two.
The wraps will come off shortly.
+5
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:10 am)If (when) I lose 54 lbs it will be the driver not the car that gets the weight reduction.
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:12 am)Yup. I’m with you on this one.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:19 am)I am inclined to say not necessary but I haven’t driven either of these cars so it’s difficult to gauge if the response to mashing the accelerator at highway speeds provides the response I like to feel.
I know I have never felt I needed it with my MINI-E but the MINI has more power than both of these cars and I’ve never felt like I needed more power to pass at high speeds.
This is just one more thing people will need to get used to because it’s different that what they have been driving all their life. As long as the car has enough power(and the Independence Drive video showed it does) then I’m not a fan of an artificial gear feeling.
Perhaps the LEAF engineers felt the car was a little underpowered at these speeds and wanted to give the driver the feel that they had more power than they really do? Just guessing
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:27 am)The Volt software could easily make that extra 20 hp click in when the accelerator reaches full travel, which would “simulate” the increased power of a transmission downshift.
However, the software and display should be designed to encourage an “easy does it” driving approach to make the most of each kwh stored and each drop of fuel burned. So I voted no.
A new question, because of the Mega City design claims, is “Why are cars built (i.e. chassis) with steel rather than lighter material such as aluminum?” Just how much would such a design add to the cost of production materials and the cost of production, and finally the price of the vehicle?
The reason this question is topical is that with a lighter vehicle, then whatever torque is available from the 80 or 110 kw motor, it would provide greater acceleration using less energy.
+18
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:27 am)Did the LEAF recently go on a 1776 mile journey and get there in 3 days? No. Only the Chevy Volt can do this.
The big difference between the Volt and the Leaf is that, with the Chevy Volt NO LIFESTYLE CHANGE IS REQUIRED!
Drive as usual – anywhere, anytime – without any worries about running out of battery power. Even take it on a long vacation! Just plug it in when you get home, for 40 miles of all-electric driving.
78% of Americans drive less than 40 miles per day. They will routinely use NO GAS at all with the Volt.
And note that the Volt COULD be your only car. Unlike pure electric cars like the Leaf, with no range-extention, the Volt need not be an EXTRA car. It is a no excuses, REAL sedan that can pull full time duties as a people hauler.
The Chevrolet Volt is truly a watershed vehicle, and I believe it will change the motoring world forever.
(Quote)
-6
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:40 am)That’s known as kickdown, and in some situations, its the difference between life and death!
I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I’ve avoided an accident because I floored it, causing the person that was about to smash into me from doing just that.
Simply put, the Volt MUST HAVE a kickdown function.
Here is a great application for UltraCaps when kickdown is necessary. Tromp the pedal and the Ultracaps discharge, equating to a sudden burst of speed.
Oh yes, kickdown is a must for the Volt to have.
+19
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:42 am)If you need high-performance passing power from 55 to 80 MPH on a ‘regular basis’… I recommend the 2011 Chevrolet Camaro SS! You can order one of those today too.
JEEEZ..! More and more articles about wanting the VOLT to be the one and only car for everyone. That is not what it was designed to be. Sure, I would like it to handle like a Z-06 and kick butt on a Tesla Roadster, but really? Is that what people are really expecting?
Let’s go back to talking about the VOLT for what it should be: a really great all-around town and commuter car that will save me almost $2,000 per year in gasoline!
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:05 am)+1 for being real.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:08 am)Both GM and Nissan chose the early roll-out markets based on community progress in developing charging infra-structure as demonstrating their communities interest as early adopters. Unfortunately, other early adopters are in other areas. Perhaps, those areas lacked sufficient numbers of early adopters to warrant development of charging infrastructure. From previous news releases, we should be seeing the Volt sold across the U.S. by November 2011 and if GM responds to the high demand many of us anticipate that may happen sooner. So you may not have to wait as long as you think.
As far as the topic of the day, IMHO, GM has provided us with that feeling with the Sport Mode button. It really doesn’t matter that much anymore since drivers will adjust quickly as they gain experience driving the Volt. Becoming used to the linear acceleration the Volt one gets when attempting to pass another driver won’t take long and if they find a little more acceleration is needed, well they’ll just push that Sport Mode button!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:08 am)Lyle,
Not sure but you may have made an error by stating it was the Volt prototype that was at 67 percent calibration in that test drive.
If I’m remembering the article it was the Opel Ampera.
I know it’s essentially the same car, just pointing it out.
Maybe you just said Volt so as not to confuse people who don’t remember every article you’ve posted.
+5
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:12 am)“Combustion engine cars operate differently. At higher speeds, if the driver floors the accelerator pedal, the automatic transmission will shift down a gear, engine speed and torque will increase, and the car will accelerate. Among the uninitiated, the lack of this type of responsiveness could disturb some would-be electric car buyers.”
When I buy an electric car I EXPECT the driving experience will be different.
The torque is a big plus at low speeds.
The quiet performance will be exciting and while at highway speed if the car can pass as needed the experience will be fine for me.
The extra sound of a of a passing gear from an ICE car will be a welcome OMISSION from an electric car driving experience.
I prefer to be initiated! :+}
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:21 am)I drive a standard shift, so I don’t really feel a sudden burst of acceleration unless I downshift.
The Volt won’t feel any different to me in that way.
It will feel very different to me when I don’t have to shift all the time.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:22 am)I don’t suspect that, I know it to be true. However, right now, that vehicle is not on the immediate horizon. The LEAF does not work, in my situation, as my only car. Triple the range and you have something.
+4
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:24 am)Passing gear is an inconvenience, not a luxury! It’s there to compensate for the LACK of torque lost when at higher speeds!
You want to simulate a lack of torque when you need it the most?!
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:26 am)I think the down shift feel in highway passing is going to be a trivial issue similar to getting accustomed to front wheel drive vs. rear wheel drive. Drivers will notice the difference, but for most it won’t be a big deal.
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:26 am)The answer is we just don’t know what the public will accept. The beauty is that it can be changed with simple software updates (if planned correctly).
As more models come out from different manufacturers, different ideas will be tested and adopted by next gen drivers. This is just part of the natural development process.
So, the safe thing is to give as much flexibility and modes as you can. That way you can find out what the majority of drivers end up using. The more modes the better, even if you hide then until later “updates” (just unlock hidden capabilities).
A good computer programmer allows as many of his variables as possible to be open for easy adjustment by the user. That way, he doesn’t have to go back and open them up later when the user requests it, because they always do.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:28 am)The Volt was designed to fulfill the need to travel beyond the currently short AER the batteries currently allow. It’s interesting that you use the phrase “extended range(~300 miles)” in a statement that otherwise speaks against the Volt design.
I have frequent express my opinion here that the Volt can easily evolve into a pure EV in the future when a more powerful battery is developed. Also the Flex Fuel concept provides for some other power source that has not yet been conceived. The fact that the Volt has been designed to use an ICE whenever the battery SOC goes below 30% is not a disadvantage, but just the opposite; it is an advantage because as batteries become more powerful, the Volt owner will have the option of replacing the current battery with a more powerful one and still be able to travel beyond that new higher AER.
It may cost a little but eventually the price of more powerful batteries will come down. Where do you think the price will be in five or ten years? We can all and do expect the AER to increase in the years to come and I anticipate that the scenario i just described will be a common choice of those who can only afford or want one vehicle. Instead of trading up to a BEV, they will keep their Volt and put a better battery in it.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:32 am)While I won’t comment on getting into situations where a “kick down” function is required to get out of a “life or death situation”…..
I do like the idea of the concept of ultra capacitors to provide a short burst of energy…. Maybe it will be a feature in future cars…. if it works.
+5
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:40 am)For those of us who drive manual transmissions, passing gear drop down isn’t automatic anyway, so who cares? My car has enough torque at 65 that if I floor the accelerator in 5th I’m over 85 in a few seconds anyway. As long as the Volt can do the same, who needs a ‘passing gear’ simulation?
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:43 am)It is exciting to be getting closer to launch date. By the way, good to have you back. Haven’t seen you posting in a while.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:49 am)#It is great to see you express a change in your opinion. Not many people would openly do so on the internet. That is the purpose of the GM-Volt.com blog; to dispel the misunderstandings that people have about the Volt. I applaud you as Rashid Amul has under comment #29 and ditto his remarks.
As I have stated in comment #47, Volt owners will have the option of replacing the battery with a more powerful one having greater AER in the future and still be able to go beyond that new AER. It is just one more advantage of the Volt and Voltec engineered design. One day the Volt may be able to travel on its electric charge and only use gasoline produced by domestic petroleum or biofuel.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+4
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:54 am)GOOD POST!
EXTENDED RANGE…..
Essentially all cars today …. with the exception of pure electric cars have range extension.
All ICE cars have the “gas station on the corner” when their fuel runs low.
AND so does the VOLT with an on board generator ( that will make use of the “gas station on the corner” when needed).
GM has wisely and practically put together a package for transportation using electric propulsion as it major source… with a practical backup when the battery runs down.
When batteries or another power option become much more energy dense and can charged or swapped at the “Battery station on the corner” the ICE on the Volt will no longer be a need.
So what is the option on a basic electric car if…. the battery runs out of charge before it reaches a charge point????
+6
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:00 am)I think you are all missing the point the prius sells about a million units a year there is only one reason gas cost I know because I have one it is easily and by far the worst & least fun car I have ever owned and I have owned over 40 You can not see the screen when the sun shines on it . It has no power the power shuts off for about 2 seconds with hard acceleration on one piece of pea gravel it is not comfortable.
Repairs first look at recalls mine has been in for no weather stripping under the hood, Steering U joints , T he gas gauge, The floor mats. The gas pedal . What has failed 1 the gas gauge 3 times. the cd player. the display computer, the engine control computer 2 times leaving us stranded on the side of the road, loose bolts causing rattling under the hood, windshield wipers, and the water pump. Why put up with this ? 500 miles and it takes about 9.5 gal to fill up! that is the ONLY reason.
My wife likes the car I do not. My point is the volt should be a much better car and looks to be much more reliable with far superior gas mileage . So selling a million a year should be no problem.
Tom
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:05 am)Thanks. I have been away for two weeks on vacation in Colorado.
I love those Rockies.
+5
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:05 am)Great post.
You have have stated it best in your sentence “NO LIFESTYLE CHANGE IS REQUIRED!”
Plus one gets all of the benefits of a new technology. A double win!.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:07 am)Does anyone know what the expected MPG is while in CS mode?
Has it been announced yet?
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:08 am)Yes :+}
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:11 am)Those who have driven both the Leaf and the Volt have said the Volt has a slight advantage on the acceleration front. But that probably doesn’t mean much since both cars seem to have great acceleration. It’s likely that driving either means you’ll never be beaten out of the blocks unless by choice. Nissan has said that the Leaf can go 0-30 MPH faster than its GTR, and the GTR’s 0-60 MPH time is something like 3.2 seconds. So both these cars are going to be quick.
At higher speeds an ICE car will have more torque, but as mentioned, when you accelerate quickly there is a lag as the car down shifts that you won’t have on either of these EVs.
As an aside, the difference between the Leaf’s 80 kW motor and the Volt’s 110 kW motor may not be that significant. Unlike an ICE where the horsepower rating is aspirational, the kW rating on an electric motor is nominal. For relatively short periods a motor can run at several times its rated output. Because of this, my guess is that the limiting factor for power between the two cars will be the limit on the battery discharge rate rather than the motor. In this regard, note that Peukert’s Law (sp?) means that faster discharges will reduce the battery capacity and independently cut the EV range. (The famed beer analogy says that faster pouring means more foam and less beer).
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:15 am)O noooooooooooooo …….. This is the subject of much speculation. Somewhere between 30 mpg and 50 mpg is a safe bet.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:16 am)Passing ability (e.g. 50-80 mph) is important; probably more for the Volt due to its extended range capability permitting it to hit the freeways for a long trip. I don’t see it as a difficult issue to solve however. I wonder if this is something the aftermarket realm of parts suppliers could tackle to provide the tweaks people may seek. Perhaps in Tesla’s future is the role of high-tech aftermarket control chip maker/supplier…
Rashid’s trip into the mountains brought to me the thought that the thinner air of high altitudes won’t affect the performance of a Volt or LEAF as it would an ICE powered car.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:20 am)#7
Amen. +1
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:23 am)#15
Excellent point! +1
-2
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:24 am)I don’t think the Volt is well designed to be a BEV. You have a lot of space devoted to housing the engine and all its necessary parts (tailpipe etc) and that space couldn’t easily be recovered and transformed into useful space if you eliminated the ICE.
One big advantage of an EV is packaging. The Leaf has about the same envelope as the Volt but it has considerably more room.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:27 am)Thanks, DonC.
Of course I am hoping for 50. It doesn’t have to do much but sustain a charge of 30%.
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:36 am)GM should try and sell the Volt in Japan. Even though they only sold 2 thousand cars there last year. I think the Japanese will appreciate the technology and some will buy it even though they have fierce nationalistic pride. I think it’ll push the Japanese car companies to make an E-rev of their own.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:38 am)#49
I agree. +1 I have the Allison 5 speed automatic in our C3500 tow vehicle. It is a robust unit, but I HATE the kickdown feature. It often kicks down 1 or 2 gears while climbing grades when I would prefer not. It does a lot of other stuff to outsmart the driver as well, which is equally irritating. I constantly find myself wishing it was a manual trans. I can sort of live with it in cars, but I will NEVER buy another tow vehicle without total manual control over shifting.
+6
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:39 am)I have not owned 40 cars (wow)… but comments about the Prius are interesting.
I also have one.
The gas use is a big win.
Regen braking a big win too.
Lot of room for size
The “stabili-track” issue (stops on pea gravel or other minor tire slippage when starting) is a deal breaker for another Prius if they do not fix it.
The replacement of HID headlights is a great expense
The other problems you describe are excessive — hopefully all warranty covered –
I count myself lucky I did not have them…. so far.
I do see the Prius as progression technology. When I got the car I was disappointed the electric component was a minor part in the propulsion process. The ICE does the majority of the work.
The VOLT is the NEXT step in the technology progression.
I was ecstatic to learn the VOLT uses an ELECTRIC motor for the propulsion force.
AND when Chevy showed how the ICE is a GENERATOR for extended range …. not a direct connect to the wheels … this information was the DEAL MAKER for me.
My next car will be the VOLT.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:40 am)#56
Nope. Pretty frustrating, IMHO.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:47 am)#59
LOL! +1
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:51 am)In a few months, someone who is not a GM employee will be in a position to make actual measurements and post them on this site (perhaps Lyle himself).
I have a feeling that this is what it will take to finally settle the issue.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:54 am)I’m thinkin’ about buying one share of Tesla and having the stock certificate sent to me just to frame. I see it as a history making car since it inspired the Volt. The first practical and in my opinion the first accepted real world electric.
-7
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:54 am)We need to stop passing along outdated information. 62% is what the newer survey revealed and GM itself has stated a small amount of gas will be consumed from time to time.
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:54 am)… and quickly bring it to our shores at a loss, in an attempt to undercut the Volt’s price and restore their control over the green car segment.
Hey, they’re Japanese.
They’ll get around to an EREV it in their own sweet time. Let’s not push them.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:58 am)Better yet, you can come in and drive home a new Camaro SS today! And if you have the need for speed, a Camaro 2SS would be a nice 2nd car to have sitting next to your new VOLT!
Both the VOLT and the Leaf are exciting new cars …. and neither one of them is perfect for everyone. Choices is what makes the world go round. The most exciting thing is that each of these new vehicles will spawn an entire new class (or classes) of vehicles that will fundamentally alter what folks think a car can be. We are all having fun watching GM bring the VOLT to market…. and the two great ‘American Effects’ add fuel to the debate:
The Wal-Mart Effect = we want things cheaper (or I should say less expensive)
The Fed-Ex Effect = we want things faster
The VOLT is coming…. only about 4 months until mid-November….
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:01 am)Interesting article in the WSJ today about electric vehicle charging….
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703426004575339353517870046.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
I do believe that one of the VOLT’s key product advantages over the Leaf, at least initially, is that VOLT owners will be able to charge up at ANY 110 outlet, while Leaf drivers will need to find 220 power to charge overnight… or wait an extra day (20 hours) to fully charge on 110.
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:05 am)That would look nice on your wall, but I wouldn’t call the car practical.
Many people cannot afford to buy a two seat vehicle that costs over $100K.
+4
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:06 am)There is no way 38 percent of Americans drive more than 40 miles a day on average and the small amount of gas isn’t because the car uses it to propel itself. It’s simply to cycle itself for a few minutes each 3 months if you never fully deplete the battery.
And either way, this isn’t a car you buy if you never want to use a small amount of gas. Anyone who wants that shouldn’t be here. Go wait for a Leaf.
This is a car for people who want to use very very little gas but still want the freedom to drive the car across this great land non stop.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:09 am)I think you are correct about the Volt BEV. However, I could see a future EV designed on purpose to be either a BEV or EREV based on options.
It would have a large main pack common to all models, probably larger than the Volt’s.
A second auxiliary pack would be designed to fill the space which might otherwise contain an auxiliary generator, if it is ordered instead.
You would have to stretch the EREV idea beyond the Volt’s “total pack output replacement” philosophy, to include the idea of “average power replacement.” This would allow a much smaller engine with a narrower power range. Present day batteries are not robust enough to do the averaging, but this is sure to change within the decade.
Other tricks, like putting the generator (or extra pack) in the back, could limit the degree to which things like exhaust pipes and coolant hoses become complicating issues.
If someone offers such a model, looking at how these options sell would be most illuminating, since these would be otherwise identical vehicles.
-1
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:10 am)I think they want to bury this number and emphasize the overall number. If they’re not thinking this way they should be since 230 MPG sure sounds better than 37 (or 40 or even 50) MPG. In this regard I really don’t like the EPA’s idea of using energy equivalents in calculating MPG.
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:11 am)I was referring to the Volt. Perhaps I am speaking too soon, but I don’t think so.
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:15 am)It’s interesting to hear about the Nissan choice of simulating the “down shift” traditional vehicle drivers have come to expect. I didn’t realize any electric vehicle would be designed to act like that. It seems quite unnecessary.
That sensation has been absent from both types of CVT for ages, which really creaps out new owners… for a day or two. Then they come to enjoy the smooth & quiet, that lack of sensation becomes an appeal factor.
-2
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:21 am)If just like the Volt owner one drives less than 40 miles a day, my Leaf once charged to full will let me charge on 110 each night to “top off (100-40 = 60 miles of battery left each night)”. With the Volt, an unexpected daily errand will prob mean the Volt owners will be burning fuel to get back home.
If you want a daily driver that burns NO gasoline on average, it is not the Volt. There is a cost to this range anxiety “solution”.
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:22 am)In a volt it really doesn’t matter, punch it & fughettaboutit! I would!
-4
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:30 am)It is an interesting. +1. Just one of the challenges of fitting a new technology into an existing system.
+4
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:31 am)Just be sure you can afford to lose that $17.
-8
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:36 am)Last quote of MPG was “Comparable to a Toyota Corolla”.
http://www.toyota.com/corolla/specs.html
26/35
They won’t even compare it to a regular NON Plugin Hybrid, just a regular comparison to an internal combustion engine. You have to ask yourself seriously now……WHY?
lol, just look at those numbers for the Corolla.
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:36 am)My mistake. I misread what you wrote.
I feel the same way and I don’t think you are speaking too soon.
I think this car will be sold out before it hits the street.
Supply and demand will take over and dealers will make a killing on it.
-3
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:38 am)I thought the answer to the poll had to be “don’t know” because, without trying it, it seems impossible to evaluate. Note that it is not really imitating downshifting, so it’s going to be novel in any case. In these situations the adage “try it you may like it” seems appropriate. (Much like the high regen option. Mini-E drivers hated it … for a couple of days and then they loved it.)
Generally I agree that trying to make an EV behave like an ICE is a bad idea. My pet peeve in this area is that neither GM nor Nissan will let you freewheel, which would be a good option, apparently on the grounds that this would feel “unusual” if you were used to driving an EV.
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:38 am)I completely agree. Especially since I drive a standard shift and feel no “down shift” unless I do it myself.
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:39 am)And that means significant American dollars remain in the pockets of Americans to spend on goods, produce, and entertainment here in the states rather than wastefully sending them abroad for foreign petroleum. At around $28 Billion a MONTH, that would amount to $21.84 Billion to spend here at home once those 78% of the driving population use EVs. The broad adoption of Chevy Volt will change the face of our abysmal economy.
We, as a nation, must adopt electric transportation as soon as possible. The railroad is among the most effective means of moving goods around the country; our railroads should be upgraded and rebuilt to what they once were. Modernizing rail transportation is one of our next goals. Meanwhile the Chevy Volt will begin to the stem the tide of dollars flowing out of our country!
GO VOLT!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Remind me to look at how our balance of payments and foreign debt looks like one year after the Volt and other EVs become place on our roads.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:44 am)Sort of off topic, but perhaps interesting to some….
Every dealer, as part of being certified as a qualified Volt sales and service location, should have a E-85 fuel pump. That way, folks could “filler-up” or fill up a say “5 gallon fuel can” and keep at home. That would result in Volt owners burning almost no fossil fuel. Additionally an “extended range” trip, the GPS/On Star could provide directions to the least out of the way fuel stop where E-85 is available.
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:48 am)Off topic;
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — Electric carmaker Tesla Motors will deliver two prototypes to Toyota Motor Co. by the end of the month, a Tesla executive said Saturday.
The prototypes will use Tesla’s electric motors and battery packs and the bodies of Toyota vehicles.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/10/autos/toyota_tesla_prototypes/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote
The competition grows.
120 Days and counting!
NPNS!
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:50 am)Just press the Sport Mode button in that case! It’s easier than shifting
I agree with you about the Ultracaps!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:50 am)That is a good idea. Remember the first year Volt won’t support E85.
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:57 am)No, CorvetteGuy. It just turns out that after considering 78% of the driving population goes less than 40 miles peer day, there still remains many who can only afford or want one vehicle and THE VOLT will allow them to travel further whenever they want too.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again
-1
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:11 pm)It Works! UltraCaps are being employed in other electric vehicles for that very reason. They work best for that situation.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:14 pm)john1701a – I must agree, a CVT did take a couple of days to get used to. But now I don’t even think about it. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:15 pm)Thank you, Neutron.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again
-5
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:16 pm)What does the term “EREV” actually represent?
SAE identifies all plug-in vehicles with an engine as a PHEV.
Other factors are represented by aspects of efficiency rather than definition, since implementation itself plays a major role in that.
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:20 pm)I think the packaging would be difficult though time cures many ills. Lots of problems are solvable the more you think about them. With respect to your good idea of a smaller engine, I think GM has said this is a critical component of the Gen II Volt.
As for marketing appeal, it may be unfortunate for GM that EREV with it’s essentially unlimited range is more appealing to rural drivers than to suburban or urban ones given that rural drivers as a group are probably less inclined than average o be interested in EVs.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:23 pm)Absolutely! This seems like a no-brainer feature to me too. The surge would not be to emulate the familiar ICE down-shift behavior but simply be a sensible thing to do. When you need MAX-power, you floor it and you should get everything the car has to give.
Hopefully GM can slip this feature into the software before launch.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:24 pm)No,; unfortunately GM is holding back on this data.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. It will probably be another scoop for Lyle
-1
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:25 pm)Here’s a solution to the lack of noise from an EV. Make them — or your Corolla — all sound like they have a V8 engine:
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/12/a-40-gadget-that-makes-your-putt-putt-go-vroom-vroom/
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:29 pm)I think that E85 pumps will become more and more common. Currently there is a pipeline under construction to Pump Ethanol from SD, IA, and IL, to the eastern seaboard hopefully providing more E85 pumps out that way. Ask most people from those states and they will tell you you can get it anywhere. In Des Moines there are not very many filling stations that DO NOT have an E85 pump. I used it for 5 years in an S-10 and the engine ran much smoother and performed better. Only a 10% decrease in fuel economy but I was also paying $1.79 per gallon during Katrina when others were paying 3.50 or 4.00
-15
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:34 pm)(click to show comment)
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:44 pm)Lol. John, you crack me up. What’s it gonna use like a cup of gas in a year?
-1 anyway.
Jul 12th, 2010 (12:56 pm)This depends on what you call ‘freewheel’.
With an electric motor, if you keep the accelerator pedal in between the points of acceleration and deceleration, then, it shouldn’t use a bunch of electricity to maintain it’s rpms. I would call this ‘freewheeling’ as well. Both Volt and LEAF should be able to do this.
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:02 pm)Don’t need it. I own a HEMI.
If you want a V-8, just buy one.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:13 pm)I prefer driving manual transmission cars and for the most part when I punch it on the expressway I don’t bother to downshift. The linear acceleration from increased torque is sufficient 99% of the time.
Only when I think there might be a dangerous situation I will downshift. For that maybe the Volt could engage an extra boost of power if you floor it, because you might just need it to keep from getting crushed by an 18 wheeler.
-13
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:17 pm)(click to show comment)
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:17 pm)The pure EV fans are missing point that Chevrolet Volt can use US made ethanol instead of gasoline. So driving Volt you can avoid using oil 99% less than driving conventional ICE car.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:20 pm)This brings me to a story : The apples are at 7 feet high, there are 2 apple pickers one which is 6 feet tall and other which is 3 feet tall, Say, The 6 feet guy can reach the apple with hands while the 3 feet guy uses a ladder to reach the apple.
Now the 3 feet guy says for marketing : I have a ladder for picking apples where the other don’t have. Some people started repeating ” see , 6 feet guy doesn’t have have ladder but this guy uses ladder ”
In my view the ladder is good for a 3 feet person in this case doesn’t mean that the ladder is needed for 6 feet guy. The objective is to reach apple /pick apple.
The missing points are :
Is the apple always at 7 feet high or its supposed to go up
Is the ladder of 3 feet person fixed length or variable length ( if fixed length its use less for a 9 feel tall hanging fruit ).
Can 6 feet person reach the apple without a ladder.
There are some missing points which needs to be connected than saying 3 feet has a ladder
.
ex: motor torque curves of both volt and leaf – this may answer this question better.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:21 pm)Volt trying to feel like a gas car????????
This makes no sense. What’s the matter with these people.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:22 pm)Correct…after the first year’s production.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:23 pm)Interesting. Can you give some examples?
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:23 pm)What I mean by freewheeling is that regen is initiated when you press the B-pedal and not automatically activated when your foot comes off the A-pedal. It’s more efficient and will give you better EV range since by having the higher energy state work to overcome drag and rolling resistance you’re avoiding the losses inherent in the Mechanical–>Electrical–>Chemical transforms that you would experience with regen. Apparently this is not an option since it would “feel” different than what you get on a ICE vehicle. It would feel like what you would get on an ICE vehicle if you put it in neutral and turned the engine off.
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:26 pm)People who feel this way are not familiar with large sprawling cities like Houston. My daily commute is 46 miles roundtrip. With the a/c blasting my Volt mileage would probably be less than 40 miles so I’m going to burn gas.
The Leaf is no better because 100 miles isn’t enough. Again with the a/c blasting I’m going to get less than a 100 miles and it’s not unusual for me to drive 120 miles in a day.
Oh and I bought Tesla stock on the first day, but I sold it the next for a nice profit.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:45 pm)Maybe all Nissan should do is play back a cheesy recorded “downshifting noise” through the car’s internal speakers. That ought to take care of it.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:47 pm)I believe I detect a slight exageration as they have only built about 1.7 million prius’ to date (15 years)..no where close to a million a year…
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:48 pm)There was a comment above about password protecting performance mode–I believe that this was the idea of the poster, and nothing that I’ve seen GM say anything about. How about having password protected settings, like a minimum-performance mode for your kids?
If Junior wants to take the Volt out, break out the smart-phone and set it to low-performance.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:50 pm)Unless you can verify that your vehicle is getting juiced from 100% Hydro, Solor, Wind, Nuclear or even a geo-thermo generator you cannot claim emmision free. Tesla can’t, Nissan can’t, etc. There are various places to check on the web by using your zip code and it will tell you percent of power generated. The best I have seen is some locations getting up to 80% via renewables. In reality most places fall in the 20-50% range.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:51 pm)Until last year, I drove straight shift my whole life (I had to stop because bumper-to-bumper traffic was killing my left leg, I was spending 30% of my time on a cane). I used the manual to slow down, as well as speed up (leaving the car in an appropriate ratio for any speed in case of emergency, but also to “engine brake.” There were places where I could shift into neutral and “glide” with the engine at idle. I thought of it as “shifting into G (for Gravity).” With the right topography, it’s amazing how far you can go. Of course, speed becomes highly variable, and I never wanted to do it where there was traffic (or policemen).
It took me months to get used to the car deciding when to shift instead of the driver.
I’m looking forward to shift-less Volt-driving some day (and I don’t mean cutting people off or tailgaiting, lol).
-1
Jul 12th, 2010 (1:54 pm)Get Junior a BEV. No unexpected road trips!
Jul 12th, 2010 (2:10 pm)I definitely think that there is a place for Ultra Capacitors in future, “Sporty” EVs; but at the present time they are bulky, expensive items. I don’t believe we’ll see them in a mass produced EV offering until there is a cost/size breakthrough. This needn’t be anything as dramatic as the mythical EESU; just a modest energy density increase with demonstrated reliability at a lower cost.
Don’t forget also that any UltraCap, regardless of cost, needs some fairly complex electronics to adapt it’s intrinsically higher voltages into something usable for an EV; so the cost / performance benefits of using them would have to be pretty compelling.
Jul 12th, 2010 (2:34 pm)#70
No doubt.
Jul 12th, 2010 (2:40 pm)I wasn’t aware that the Volt does regen when the A-pedal is let up. I thought it only did this if the ‘shift’ lever is in the ‘L’ position?
Jul 12th, 2010 (2:44 pm)No gimmicks. Just more power, please. I see no reason why electric vehicles shouldn’t be the most powerful vehicles on the road.
The Volt is an acceptable start; the bare minimum. The Leaf is unacceptable to me.
My standard has always been 0-60 of 8 seconds is the minimum required to safely negotiate our short on-ramps into high speed limits in the the silicon valley. But that’s for gas engines. Typically, we’re not starting at 0 onto an onramp (although that seems to happen more than you might think as people frequently stop at the end of the expressway onramps) so more important is say the 20-70 performance. Since nobody actually reports those numbers, who knows. But I’m pretty sure any car in the 10-11 second 0-60 range is unacceptable to me.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (2:58 pm)Off topic but exciting…
I called an NYC Chevy dealer from the dealer’s forum and plunked down a deposit. #5 on their list. They’re getting 10 Volts for the initial allocation, 7 between 11/2010 and 2/2011, and 3 between 2/2011 and 6/2011.
Can’t wait!
Jul 12th, 2010 (3:50 pm)From Lyle’s report of his most recent drive sounds like the Volt will have decent zip for passing, if not the surge (or perceived surge) from a downshifted ICE/tranny combo.
Why though does the question bring to mind a long-forgotten memory from my college rowing days – 2,000 meter race (about 1 1/4 miles), inside the last 500 meters when everyone is already balls-out pulling with whatever is left in their tank, and the coxswain calls for a “power ten”! Similar to the sturm und drang that occurs when some normally aspirated pushrod four gets the urgent “pass” pedal at 60 mph – you get a downshift and lots of noise, but forward progress isn’t much different. While in the crew race you had faith the coxswain saw the extra foot or two could gain a spot or a win, in the 4 cyl car is it even worth the wasted gas…
“But I digress”…
-2
Jul 12th, 2010 (3:52 pm)The “L” position increases regen but regen is always initiated when you take the pressure off the A-pedal. This is the same for the Volt and the Leaf. If it were otherwise the Volt wouldn’t feel like a “normal” car since in an ICE vehicle the the engine always breaks the car when in gear. This is one of those areas where I’d like the option for the Volt not to be “normal”.
Which is why it’s irritating the Volt doesn’t have the option. All that kinetic energy going to waste!
Jul 12th, 2010 (3:54 pm)Where did you row?
Jul 12th, 2010 (4:01 pm)I’m guessing …
Gently down the stream?
Sorry, I just browsed over to a cartoon site for an hour …
Jul 12th, 2010 (4:08 pm)Actually, re-gen should allow you to use that kinetic energy more politely (if not more safely); keeping a steady speed instead of rolling over 20 – 30 miles over the limit downhill, plunging to 5 under the limit when topping the next.
Shifting into “G” (for gravity) has it’s downside, which I also mentioned:
Jul 12th, 2010 (4:18 pm)This depends on the car and the transmission/torque converter.
In larger cars, like a DTS Caddy, there is hardly any engine-brake effect. More like gliding than stopping. Of course, once you get 6,000 pounds of car moving, it doesn’t stop that easily.
My ’05 Magnum R/T doesn’t really engine-brake that much in 5th either. I usually drive in 3rd around town just to get some brake effect happening. (That slap-stick on the 5-speed is really cool. Almost as good as a manual.)
-11
Jul 12th, 2010 (4:20 pm)(click to show comment)
-1
Jul 12th, 2010 (4:56 pm)I think there is a misunderstanding here… the LEAF doesn’t simulate the downshift, it just does what the volt does when you press the sport mode button, sends an energy boost to the motor when you floor the acc. pedal, no need to bush buttons there…
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:05 pm)This so-called “passing gear” would actually be a lack of linearity within the operating system or control unit software with respect to how the accelerator input is transposed into a positive torque request.
They can claim it was intentional all they want, but the reality is, it’s merely slopping code!
WopOnTour
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:15 pm)Great Idea!
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:21 pm)Not true!
This is because most of the Japanese OEMs (like Nissan and Toyota) tend to state their electric motor ratings based on PEAK power and GM uses CONTINUOUS power. (which is always lower than peak)
A good example is the Gen 3 Prius. It’s often stated incorrectlythat the Prius has the “same size motor” as the GM 2-modes, which is garbage as the PEAK power of both the GM 2-mode MGUs is 87kW.
WopOnTour
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:28 pm)If you don’t feel a kick down but the acceleration performance is there, it’s irrelevant. Part of that kick down feel is a hesitation while the transmission downshifts.
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:29 pm)Before July 1, I would have thought it quite unlikely that Texas would get Volts before Michigan (OK, Mr. Whitacre is from Texas, I was not thinking). For being #2 on the list of a high volume dealer I would expect that it would take less than 6 months from order to delivery. I’m thinking that all US dealers get to order in September and then they find out their firm allocation later after priorities have been set (but that is not quite right because I already know the result of that, it comes in March (or later)). Sigh…
Anyway, if by Dec 1 there are about 500 Volts made where will they go? Does it take that many for the demos? What about some of the special deals that were made for shipments to utility companies and to the US government?
If there are a few hundred dealers in California and each one gets 4-5 cars before anyone else I guess that would explain things.
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:30 pm)All software too, sounds like. Just make it an optional feature/download, and I’d say “OK.”
Of course, this assumes that you ever turn “sport mode” off, lol.
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:36 pm)Technically you dont even need to alter the position of the accelerator pedal to get “some” regeneration. This is because the Volt (as do many of the newer cars in the last few years) uses a TORQUE based calibration (as opposed to older air mass or load variable calibrations).
So essentially whenever the Volt’s powertrain mangament system detects desired torque as “zero or less” (eg when going down a short grade or even hitting a depression in the roadway at a “steady” throttle request) the system will take advantage by grabbing a few watts of regen, but not so much as you would even be able to detect it. (without data aquisition)
Come completely off the accelerator and the effect is somewhat more apparent but barely noticable, but depress the brake pedal and the effect is amplified in a linear fashion based on pedal travel, pedal pressure and dependant on feedback from an x-axis accelerometer.
WopOnTour
+2
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:37 pm)A few more observations/questions:
- those dealer demo units could make some folks very happy come Dec of 2011 if they get sold at a discount (remember when that used to be a regular thing?)
- in light of “it has to be perfect” – do the demo units have to be perfect or can they be Beta test units?
- the cars going to the government and to the utilities – do THEY have to be perfect or can they be beta testers?
- maybe for a small consideration (extra attention to problems) WE could be beta testers?
/sorry if my ramblings are OT
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:40 pm)Not OT (IMO), I particularly think that GM needs to see that last suggestion every now and then.
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:43 pm)And here’s what the TROLL had to say:
Give it a rest. You’re just losing BEV sales.
+4
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:51 pm)Every electric fueled here in our own nation is a win for America. My prayers are certainly with the man and the company that introduced the inception of the Volt to Bob Lutz at GM. Mr. Elon Musk hopefully has our sympathies with his very tough road to hoe ahead of him. Gave his entire fortune over to the idea electrics can be made here in America with American labor and American know how, fueled by American energy and with the side benefit of helping reduce emissions that all of us breathe. . Hope he succeeds too.
My equally great hope is the Middle-East oil barons are cut off at the knees.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (5:54 pm)I can give a counter example. I have seen the Ford PHEV prototype (even got to drive it) and the rep was VERY explicit that they wanted the vehicle to feel EXACTLY like an ICE driven vehicle, even down to the automatic transmission forward creep when you take your foot off the brake.
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:00 pm)After seeing a few posts from the NYC area, I can kind of see that a fair number of Volts are going there. And it is QUITE OK if they pre-empt me. Even if it is only for Lyle, but I’m sure that there is more to it than that.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:04 pm)The Volt I drove in NY this past March did that, too.
-13
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:18 pm)(click to show comment)
-13
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:23 pm)(click to show comment)
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:26 pm)#152 & #153:
What Anonymous Proxy does when referred to as a TROLL (#146). I wonder how many IP addresses he has access to?
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:27 pm)Testing post (finally added an Avatar to my profile)
Edit: I don’t see the picture. Jackson, how does your Avatar show? I’m logged into the site, still asks for my username/email at the bottom when I add a post though. Any ideas?
-6
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:37 pm)The mileage in CS mode is about 35 MPG. Best to use electricity only.
Take Care,
TED
Jul 12th, 2010 (6:41 pm)#144 John K said:
- maybe for a small consideration (extra attention to problems) WE could be beta testers?
No, that would be too much fun, GM is hogging all of that for themselves.
-3
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:00 pm)Yes I was referring to the fact that motors are rated at continuous power while HP is rated at peak power. But from the slight acceleration difference which have been reported I’m thinking the Leaf motor is rated at continuous power. Also supporting this supposition is the fact that the power and energy of the battery packs are quite consistent so it’s hard to imagine that the Leaf motor would be so much less powerful and not die a fairly quick death.
That’s interesting. Why not allow the driver the option of only initiating regen only when the B-pedal is pressed?
+3
Jul 12th, 2010 (7:51 pm)Leaf fans can say nearly exactly the same thing about upgrading their battery packs. Each form of EV can claim the advantage speciously. Lets just encourage getting them on the road.
Both the batteries and an ICE range extender are heavy. Lets focus on getting Electrics on the road instead of pointing out the obvious physical characteristics of the Volt and Leaf power-trains ad nauseum.
Since there won’t be enough cars to satisfy initial demand, and the effects of electric vehicles won’t be entirely felt until they are in the wild in large numbers, let’s just encourage people to go to their dealers and request one, instead of ICE’s. No need to discourage one type of EV choice over another.
PDNFTT. People that are looking for a reaction will feel bigger than you are when they manipulate you into reacting, especially negatively, to them. They don’t care about logic or facts, they only want to show an audience that they can manipulatively twist you into an angry, pitiful reality TV candidate. When you agree to pit one EV type against another because you feel personally slighted, you make the trolls gleefully happy.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (8:40 pm)OK, so which button do I push to turn the tires to smoke?
-2
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:09 pm)Nice try.
I am Troll I am.
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:16 pm)You have total conTROLL of the situation, eh?
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:20 pm)I wonder which will happen first?
Daytime charging miles will cost more than gasoline miles or electric miles will outnumber gasoline miles.
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:46 pm)I would believe anytime an electric car could capture energy it should be done as efficiently as possible. Therefore the software option would be the better choice. If one wanted to capture more energy yet the B pedal could be touched to activate a higher resistance to generate a higher capture rate.
In all cases if electric is the choice for an efficient car then regen capture is a must.
I have a Prius and the brakes at 96,000 miles are still at 60+% due to the Prius regen capability.
Jul 12th, 2010 (9:51 pm)Why? Is Ford worried people are not “bright” enough to realize an electric car can act slightly different. The creep is creepy. What if the new owner’s previous car was a stick shift. Does that mean he/she will be happy thinking they are “riding the clutch”???? :+] Har har.
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:04 pm)John – you had the opportunity to drive the Escape PHEV? Lucky? What was the top speed before the ICE turned on? Also, do you know how many miles it would go in EV only mode? My friend recently purchased a Fusion Hybrid. He can hit 48 mph before the ICE kicks in. The Fusion will make an awesome PHEV.
Go EV’s!!!
+1
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:29 pm)The Ford Escape Hybrid has a lot of potential, hopefully the PHEV is very robust.
-9
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:49 pm)Just another advantage LEAF both in marketing and performance.
Once the customer feels the passing gear in the LEAF and then goes to test drive the Volt it will be: WTF this Volt don’t hunt !
LEAF +1
-8
Jul 12th, 2010 (10:52 pm)Passing Gear is a stroke of genius by Nissan. Where were you GM ?
Just shows the attention to detail of the Nissan LEAF engineering group. The Volt team could learn a few things from the masters of the EV. woot.
-6
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:00 pm)The Volt has much less room than the five-passenger LEAF.
The Volt has a huge absolutely hideous hump going right down the middle of the vehicle. This monstrosity is not found in any other front wheel drive vehicle on the planet. Poor design for passenger comfort. The LEAF has the big advantage in user interior comfort no doubt.
As for passing gear, nice, too bad GM couldn’t engineer this advanced feature. Similar to the way GM left out audible alerts and spend hundreds of hours on a failed design for the charging port door.
And don’t get me started on the looks and color availability of the Volt.
-7
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:11 pm)Our King has advised all Volt owner to park facing Mecca in accordance with the Koran. Failure to heed this directive may result in severe consequences including probable public beheading. Alah Ackbar and long live the Chevy Volt.
The King has provided a 40 mile waiver to Volt owners who exercise the ill advised option of non-petro transport mode but we kindly welcome the luxurious travel found beyond the initial dirty 40. May Alah allow you Volt owner sleep well god willing. Alllah Allah Akbar.
Jul 12th, 2010 (11:20 pm)Energy density has been the limiting factor since Edison tried to make a propulsion battery for Ford. To gather adequate energy density for reasonable range a big battery pack is needed. Since the batteries are assembled in series to make a big battery pack the power produced by pack discharge won’t a limiting factor.
The limiting factors will be in setting the parameters for acceleration and top speed – to maintain the expected range and preferably taking advantage of the available torque at zero RPM without adding the weight and complexity of a transmission (not easy but preferred, leading to speculation of the Volt employing two mode). And keeping the motor from overheating at high wattage.
Current battery technology allows:
Power = gobs, leading to limited range with lots of torque and fun, a huge battery or very limited performance.
Energy = limited, overall todays batteries lead to the Faustian choice of a huge expensive battery, short range or a liquid fuel range extender.
Jul 13th, 2010 (12:02 am)Certainly, they would also be able to upgrade their batteries. I never indicated that Nissan owners couldn’t do a battery upgrade.Or that it would be an advantage for the Volt vs Leaf.
Although others disagree with my thinking the Volt can evolve into a BEV. All that’s necessary is the removal of the ICE and related hardware. I don’t think that will happen without a complete engineering redesign. If you give a little more thought to it, you will realize that GM has done the research and engineering to make a BEV with out much more effort.
If you raced a Leaf and Volt down I-5 after all the charging infrastructure is established, the Volt would win hands down; the Volt would stop to recharge and fill its gas tank at the same time while the Leaf would only recharge its battery. The Volt would get 40 AER plus the +300 from gasoline while the Leaf would have to stop every 100 or less miles. This difference between the vehicles is a big difference.
I am all for vehicles like the Leaf being on the market. There will be Leaf owners in the future but for a few years, IMHO, the Volt and other EREVs will dominate the market. There will be individuals that are impatient to get an EV that will buy a Leaf because they can’t get a Volt as soon as they would like.
I’ll be patient and wait until the Volt is available in my locality. I’ll be buying another Chevrolet – a Malibu or Cruze, and trade it in when the Volt becomes available. I can visualize taking the existing battery and using it with solar panels on my home’s roof, and replacing with upgraded batteries giving it further AER. In essence, I’ll convert my Gen II or III Volt into a BEV in the future. To all you doubters out there, you can come by and watch the process. Its not as hard as you think.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again
P.S. I just love the challenge when someone says to me “It can’t be done.”
Jul 13th, 2010 (12:08 am)With full torque available at zero RPM this herky jerky “copy an ICE feel feature” may be not only unneeded but perhaps unwanted when the smooth linear power of all electric acceleration is understood by drivers,
-2
Jul 13th, 2010 (12:24 am)Regen should be Plan B because it’s not as efficient as freewheeling. If you’re coming down a hill you can let the force of gravity overcome the forces of drag and rolling resistance. This captures all rather than a portion of the extra energy which would be captured by regen.
Jul 13th, 2010 (12:30 am)Yes all batteries are crippled by low energy density as compared to alternative fuels. But the LG Chem cells don’t seem to have great power density. Otherwise we’d be seeing 0-60 times like you get from the Tesla Roadster.
Jul 13th, 2010 (12:30 am)Great. If racing down I-5 the goal
But what is the goal? Both vehicles will work for some drivers needs. Don’t add a specious distraction to an otherwise great argument.
My bad, I did not intend to say you were incorrect, I just wanted to contrast two views on EV types by EV enthusiasts. The point you’ve made there seems true to me.
Very realistic. Even though many would argue against it. Their argument being – It’s game over, the Volt, perhaps using biofuels, will annihilate any other form of passenger car as a hopelessly failed lack of competition. Talk of anything else, like cheaper longer range batteries just obscures the view of the inevitable crowned king for them.
Jul 13th, 2010 (12:48 am)That’s a job for the tuners. Street based overclocking!! New software, new chips, new motor windings, extend the water cooling from the batteries to the motor. New suspension bits. Lowered chassis. Wider tires. Aero parts.
Tesla can put out 244 HP or 288 HP with the Roadster Sport upgrades of the same identical Base Roadster motor.
( http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/teamspeed-green/30193-first-drive-2010-tesla-roadster-sport-improves-original-keeps-quirks.html )
Jul 13th, 2010 (1:41 am)The only reason you might be able to charge the Volt in less time at home at 120V given the same driving pattern is because you would have burned gas in it. Is that a good thing?
The whole point of the Volt (and all plug-in variants) is to move energy consumption from gas to external electricity, IMO. The “issue” that you can’t “fill” it up at 120V, while an impedement for many, is a “good” problem to have “in a sense” and not one to be avoided via gas.
+1
Jul 13th, 2010 (2:02 am)What you actually feel in “passing gear” is the lack of power for a fraction of a second and then full power.
To simulate this they could CUT the power when you stomp the throttle and then hit you with full power.
I sure hope this is a parameter setting that can be turned off.
-4
Jul 13th, 2010 (3:39 am)He may be an Idiot.. but at least now I’m picturing a tea bagger with a sense of humour
+2
Jul 13th, 2010 (8:48 am)Dear GM,
Could you please make me a new electric drive car that still jerks me around like an internal combustion engine car does? Thanks so much.
Sincerely,
Joe Nissan
Jul 13th, 2010 (1:52 pm)Didn’t they say sometime in one of there past articles the next year or two that the generation II (2) Volt will be fully electrified? If so those Leaf nerds need to shut there yap and be a little more patient.
Jul 13th, 2010 (7:34 pm)As most of the Volt drives were done in a parking lot, so was this. It felt unimpressive, like a pickup truck that had a lot of miles on it. I believe that the ICE is set to come on at 40MPH, but if you floor it enough it will come on much sooner – the Ford rep wanted us to do that. It is able to get 20 miles of pure electric driving (if you don’t go over 40 mph or accelerate hard). The vehicle is pretty much a SUV, slightly on the small side, but pretty nice. If the voltec Orlando never makes it to market this will do quite well (may anyway). The Ford rep was emphatic that the battery pack made this vehicle entirely too expensive for current production (but it will go into production in 2012).
Jul 13th, 2010 (9:58 pm)What are you saying???
How in this case are you “capturing” ANYTHING ???
Whenever you are in a negative TQ scenario you are essentially “coasting” with inertia (what you call free-wheeling)During this period you are not delivering electrical current to the traction motor, as it’s not required in order to hold speed. So how are you proposing to “capture” ANYTHING during this period unless you move your drive axle connected MGU into generation?? An MGU can only do one function at a time, it’s either motoring or generating, it cant do both!(the direction of current flow can only be in a single direction)
It might just be your wording but you appear to be saying that coasting with inertia (and not expending energy) will always be more efficient than regeneration. BUT that would depend on the rate of subtle regeneration you are able to command during this coasting period and the rate the inertial losses affect the vehicle velocity and delaying the onset of “motoring”
Being able to “bank” even small amounts of inertial energy, all the while not significantly affecting the rate of negative acceleration due to gravity and total drag (including that within the MGU/transaxle due to generation) WILL be more “efficient” on the Volt. (this is something totally controllable via careful phase shift adjustments to the control signals within the motor controller that keep gentle pace with back-emf as the motor slows) But like I said, when done correctly it’s effect is barely discernable in terms of deceleration so “banking” additional energy during this period is far more important than merely maintaining inertia as the slowing is so negligible, until you step on the brake pedal of course.
This is so obviously not your field so why do you wish to argue such details??
WopOnTour