On July 1st a caravan including a near final black Chevrolet Volt left Austin Texas where GM CEO Ed Whitacre announced the inclusion of NY,NJ,TX, and CT as initial Volt rollout markets. The Volt is travelling from Texas to New York City on a 1776 mile freedom drive eventually arriving in NYC on July 4th for the Macy’s fireworks celebration. I will be jumping aboard the Volt when it reaches New Jersey early Sunday morning and will be celebrating the fireworks with the Volt team and 70 GM-Volt readers who registered to go on this site.
Freedom stands for both freedom from oil as well as freedom from range anxiety
You can see the route on the map above or in real time on this link. The Volt has so far passed through Texas and Arkansas and is now in Tennessee. Stops were made in Dallas, Waco, Little Rock, Knoxville and Memphis. It has so far traveled more than 1300 miles and will be passing through Virginia today on its way to Maryland this afternoon.
If anyone happens to capture a photo of the car as it passes by, just upload it to the Chevy Volt Facebook page and win a free Volt T-shirt. There’s also a GM-Volt Facebook page, for those who don’t know.
Also, for anyone who plans to be at Criswell Chevrolet in Gaithersburg Maryland today, GM has advised me there will only be room for 5 test drives from GM-Volt readers, so please plan accordingly.
In other news, the New York Times is reporting that (the new) GM plans to file for its IPO in August, with expectations of selling shares to the public by the end of the year. Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan Chase will be the underwriters, and the company apparently seeks an additional $5 billion credit line as part of the offering.
Selling shares to the public will be the US government’s strategy to divest its 61% ownership in the company, acquired during bankruptcy restructuring. The IPO is believed only to allow divestment of 20 percent of the ownership stake, however.
GM executives have expressed strong optimism in the company’s performance, noting that 12% more vehicles have been sold under only four remaining brands in the first half of 2010, than eight total brands in the first half of 2009. Internatioanl growth has been idenified as te srtongest future considerationf or the ompany. In fact, for the first half of this year GM sales in China beat US sales with GM selling 1.2 million vehicles in China versus 1.08 million in the US.
“It’ss a fundamentally different company in terms of its break-even point,” said GM CFO Chris Liddell. “What’s new about the new G.M.? Really everything.”
Last week, the yet-to-be profitable electric-car making Tesla Motor Company (Nasdaq: TSLA) sold 15.3 million shares at $17 to the public, raising a total of $260 million and giving the company a valuation of $1.8 billion. In the secondary market, shares had quickly peaked at over $30 per share, back down to $19.20 at last trade.
Source (GM) and (New York Times)
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:16 am)have fun
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:17 am)The next revolution begins! Looking forward to seeing the harbinger of change in Maryland today.
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:26 am)This is a great way to show and demonstrate why extended range electric cars are the better choice at this time in this country.
I have already seen stories about this trip on many web sites, different papers around the country and on the radio.
Maybe the publicity will encourage GM to build more VOLTS :+}
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:26 am)The Volts Wheels are on the road!
Go Freedom drive!
Whaahooo
+6
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:43 am)Happy Independence Day USA From Israel.
Thank You For Promoting And Protecting Freedom And Democracy.
Thank GM for freeing us from oil, oil abuse and non direct support (by paying for oil) of dark regimes like Iran S.Arabia and Venezuela.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:47 am)The Macy’s 4th of July Fireworks Spectacular is broadcast nationwide on NBC. Hopefully GM has worked with NBC for maximized coverage of the VOLT Freedom Drive and arrival in New York City during the telecast. The visual quality of the fireworks is spectacular in high definition. NBC indicates that it will air at 9 PM eastern/pacific and 8 PM central/mountain. Check your local listings and set your VCR/DVR now.
+33
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:48 am)If you follow the link in this posting to the “live map” there’s a picture of the Volt sitting in front of the Nissan headquarters in Franklin, Tennessee…
I heard that engineers from Nissan saw this photo shoot happening and hopped in a Leaf to go after them as the Volt pulled away, for some reason the engineers chase abruptly ended about 100 miles outside of Franklin Tennessee and the Volt drove on:)
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:53 am)“including a near final black Chevrolet Volt”
Black Volt? IPO? New GM? It is Saturday morning? Where is Statik?
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:03 am)Maybe something’s wrong with me, but I don’t really get excited by these Volt PR events.
I just want to buy a Volt or some other EREV. I thought I would have a real chance for this by the summer of 2011, but with GM’s recent announcement on Volt production numbers, it may be year or more after that.
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:05 am)Driving range has always been represented by total capacity…
300 miles / 9 gallons = 33.3 mpg
Introducing a new factor, a buffer to avoid empty, you’d get…
300 miles / 7 gallons = 42.9 mpg
Volt’s strength is remaining within the usable kWh capacity of the battery-pack to take advantage of electricity as much as possible. The “Freedom Drive” will clearly point out the benefit when exceeding it. Question is, how forthcoming will GM be about the efficiency in CS mode? This is a fantastic opportunity to upfront about the design, something we still haven’t seen yet. It would be great for this to be a turning point for GM, a big chance for them to break away from practices of the past.
What detail do you think will be shared about the drive?
+4
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:34 am)Gonna be in Gaithersburg this afternoon.
Gonna be on the pier in Manhattan tomorrow evening.
Gonna touch a Volt!
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:39 am)ocryan said:
I heard that engineers from Nissan saw this photo shoot happening and hopped in a Leaf to go after them as the Volt pulled away, for some reason the engineers chase abruptly ended about 100 miles outside of Franklin Tennessee and the Volt drove on:)
Maybe somebody should put up a $100 reward for a picture of a dead Leaf.
+12
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:45 am)GM,
At the end of this Freedom Drive event, tell us the gas mileage achieved.
Please don’t hide this number from us and tell us to “Stay Tuned” !!!
That was acceptable when so many things were still in development,
but now its time to start letting your fan base know the real details.
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:57 am)This all good ..price will be the key to its success ..otherwise only very small % of folks will be able to afford it ..for Volt to make dent in the oil use ..it has to become a dominant car for US ..or cars similar to it … EREV will be a good start however, BEV will be the ultimate goal to get ourselves off the oil consumption ..raising local gas taxes will be one way to reduce gas consumption ..Buy folks in US are spoiled & still cling to old ways big SUV ..no public transportation … inspite of the oil disaster in Gulf they want more drilling ..good lord what is wrong with these idiots ..i see shrimps fish drained in oil tastes good ..lol
+7
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:04 am)This is non-responsive to this post, which I understand fully, but at the end of the last thread you had a response to CNG cars that I didn’t want to lose. Basically you pointed out that the cars like the Prius or some diesels emitted slightly less CO2 than a CNG vehicle. (And had a nice graph that illustrated this).
There are three main responses to this. One is that CNG is essentially methane so yes, burning it will create CO2. Maybe 25% or 30% less than a conventional car but still more than some alternatives. However, CO2 is just one emission. CNG vehicles don’t emit much of anything else, including the particulates that are the major health concern. Over all CNG reduces nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions and reactive hydrocarbons, which form ground-level ozone (the principal ingredient of smog), by as much as 95 percent. CNG vehicles also reduce emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) by about 25-30 percent, carbon monoxide (CO) by 85 percent and carcinogenic particulate emissions by 99 percent. I’m concerned about the carcinogenic particulates and would gladly accept slightly higher CO2 emissions to get those greater health benefits you’d get from eliminating the carcinogens. So your graph is misleading to the extent that it focused on only one of several problematic emissions. You need to look at the entire spectrum of emissions.
Second is that focusing on CO2 misses the national security issue. Oil needs to be replaced not only because it contributes to global warming and because it’s unhealthy but also because it is being used as a strategic tool by countries which want to destroy us. A CNG car uses ZERO oil, which is a whole lot better than a Prius or a diesel Jetta. Essentially you have to be clear what problem you’re trying to solve. If it’s national security or economic development then CNG scores very high and the CO2 chart isn’t illuminating.
Third is that CNG may be the only realistic alternative in the short term for trucks, especially long haul trucks. Electrification won’t help with this, the distances are too long and the loads too heavy. CNG works for this quite well.
Hope this helps explain why I think CNG is a good alternative.
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:21 am)To futher the non-responsiveness to this post… I would add
1. good points (except the global warming concerns
.
And I would add that CNG is already plentiful in the US, cheap, and home refueling options are available. Many already have a pipe to their home. In addition, it is a known commodity. CNG cars are already in wide use around the world.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:21 am)My family had already planned to head to Criswell Chevrolet this afternoon, but I’m not sure what the point is if there will be only 5 test drives. What are the odds that my family gets one of them?
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:26 am)Nuclearboy said:
CNG cars are already in wide use around the world.
What type of “Gas” mileage do CNG cars get?
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:28 am)BEV is not necessarily the ultimate goal. Who really knows when batteries will be that good? An EREV with it’s power plant using a renewable bio fuel might be just as good. Maybe better. It sidesteps the rapid charge issue. Volt design scheme is almost there already.
+4
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:32 am)Well deserved recognition, Lyle, for your part in getting and keeping GM on the “road to freedom.”
Thanks to GM for the recognition, and thanks to you; represent us well.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:36 am)https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfuel/CNG2001.shtml
This link has some stuff from 2008.
Here is the info copied for a Camry..
Paste begins here VVVVVVVV
We have revised the 1985-2007 MPG estimates to make them comparable to the new 2008 and later MPG estimates!
Fuel Type
CNG
MPG (city)
19
MPG (highway)
28
MPG (combined)
22
Fuel Economics
Cost to Drive 25 Miles
$1.97
Fuel to Drive 25 Miles
1.14 gal
Annual Fuel Cost
$1181
* Based on 15000 annual miles and a fuel price of 1.73 per gallon.
Fill-up cost and the distance you can travel on a tank are calculated based on the combined MPG and the assumption that you will re-fuel when your tank is 10% full.
Climate ChangeGreenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from your car may contribute to climate change. Cars with better gas mileage emit less greenhouse gases. Click for more info.
Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions*
Worst 16.2
Best 3.5
This car 6.90
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:38 am)Pat,
Great to hear from you with one of your irrational rants during our national celebration of the 4th.
-1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:39 am)That does not include state road tax.
Since that isn’t paid at the pump, you have to do that each April when filing a return.
It’s an extra CNG expense commonly overlooked.
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:39 am)LOL
Don’t think the engineers are that dumb. The marketing people, maybe.
Sounds like a good idea for a GM commercial. Action movie car chase scene. Leaf chasing Volt, “we’ll catch’m they only have a 40 mile electric range. What about the range extender? Doooh!” Volt chasing Leaf, ” Relax they’re not going to out run us. They only have a 100 mile range.”
+4
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:42 am)I can understand why Lyle would say the “freedom” represents freedom form range anxiety as the Volt will certainly provide that.
However as great as the Volt is, it by no means is freedom from oil as he said. There is no way around the fact that the car has an internal combustion engine. Even if the owner never drives more than the 35 or so miles it will go in battery only mode the car will still use gas and need periodic oil changes. It it not freedom from oil at all, it only uses less, which is definitely a good thing. There is no better example than this Freedom trip itself to prove the point. The Volt will probably drive about 76 miles on battery only mode and 1700 using gasoline to sustain charge. It will need over 40 gallons of gas to make the trip!
All that being said it would take a BEV about 4 days of constant driving and charging(if you could even find charge points) to make the trip so the Volt is unquestionably the preferred vehicle for this kind of driving. The volt is an amazing car, unlike anything we have seen so far and I hope & think it’s going to sell very well. It can stand alone on its fantastic qualities, so there isn’t a need to claim it is freedom from oil because there is no way to justify that claim. That would be like Nissan saying the Leaf can go 100 miles per charge when we know it will probably top out at around 85. Oh wait, they claimed that also, guess everyone likes to make stuff up.
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:54 am)I’ll be traveling to NYC tomorrow, so I won’t have the opportunity to post anything after today.
Therefore, I’ll post this video as my “Spirit of the 4th of July” entry.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3744761/new_dreams_blue_angels_with_van_halen_and_the_f18_honets/
Maybe someday, we can get this with some footage of the Volt in action.
Happy Fourth of July to everyone.
Bill
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:02 am)Good catch. I wonder if the same will be true for BEV and EREVs since they won’t be paying transportation/gas taxes at the pump.
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:04 am)Hey Anthony. Were you around in the 70′s. Do you remember the lines at the gas stations? Odd/even days? The fights that broke out? Being able to drive 10, 20, 30 or even the mythical 40 miles a day without having to be involved in that would have definitely have seemed like “freedom” to me.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:08 am)Enjoy the day and happy 4th. Hope people are able to sit in the Volt and get a feel for the interior and controls. Think we’ll see the Volt in red, white, and blue?
=D-Volt
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:09 am)I’d think a nuclear guy would LOVE global warming concerns. Isn’t that a major source of support?
But you also have lower maintenance costs and longer engine life because burning CNG is so much cleaner than burning gas. (Quibble but you’re quibbling).
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:11 am)slim to none.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:14 am)For those of us who depend upon natural gas to heat our homes, I am concerned with the impact on my heating costs if all of a sudden you add the burden of vehicles to the equation.
It’s one thing to conserve gas by not driving as much and using a more efficient car, but keeping the family warm leaves little room for negotiation or alternatives.
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:15 am)Hi everyone,
Great things Volt-wise are happening here in Austin, TX.
Got a call from Micheal last night, and we visited for quite a while about all the terrific developments.
I had been talking to my dealer over the last few weeks about various details about my Volt purchase.
Also, while I confessed that I had been “the loose cannon” “if anyone messes with GM” (lol), I also discussed that I would like to compose a “canned presentation” for when I go to as many businesses, credit unions, banks, CPA’s and etc, about how to explain how Volt works so as to conform with promotional standards GM needs for us to keep in place.
This is important, because technical misunderstandings can really easily cause disappointment.
We have to work harder (from this point on) to tighten up our technical exactness. Although I think most if not all of us have been striving for this over the last three years, there likely at some point will come a standardized formulation for us with which we can relay the Volt news to others.
The other reasons for not being able to post as often as I wanted are that I’ve had to put a lot of money into the current vehicle I drive (at 99,000) miles, for my customer/friend to be able to have as much trouble-free miles as possible. ($1400 bucks so far), (so, the $450 new laptop has to wait a few more weeks at least). ( I’m using the local library computer for now). Plus, I am trying to get about a dozen shops to complete the fulfillment of their seminar hours that they still have banked with me. (Although I suspect some may want to keep some sort of “retainer” if I for some reason get a very significant (33% to 49%) portion of my time booked for something else. (Ahem). )
Anyway, this sure is the most deeply-exciting thing I’ve experienced in my life.
It will all work out **very nicely** for all of us.
Have a nice 4th of July everyone!!!
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:17 am)Or, your guess is wrong.
Here’s mine:
40miles x 5 days = 200 miles
1776 – 200 / 50 mpg = 31.52 gallons
1776 / 31.52 = 56.34mpg for the trip.
They can do better if they partially re-charge on every stop.
If it’s worse than this, we will never know. Since it’s a pre-production Volt they have deny ability and can claim IP (intellectual property) as well.
Almost everyone here would like to know how the Volt performed on this trip though. Data from OnStar would be especially sweet!
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:18 am)How much do they charge? I would assume this is probably dependent upon where you live?
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:32 am)Generally, about ten to fifteen percent less than gasoline per compressed gallon. But a **lot** depends on the technological efficiencies of what it is powering.
And, you must subtract from that, the electricity compressing energy if it is a home compressor unit.
In a hot garage, the compressing of it alone might equal about 10 electric-range-miles in a Volt.
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:38 am)You are right DonC, When I go to conferences the nuclear movers and shakers frequently resort to Global Warming alarmism in their speeches about the nuclear Renaissance. They appear to be “using” the issue. I am of the opinion that nuclear does not need this additional incentive and this could backfire if global warming alarmism wanes. There are other reasons for nuclear that are real and unchanging like simple electrical base load issues and rising demand for energy.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:38 am)I’m as patriotic as the next guy, but, seriously? You expect someone to keep track of the pennies and pay them back to the state next year?
Why isn’t road tax collected at a public pump? Is there no regulation in your state?
I mean seriously, man. You really know how to bum out a perfectly good holiday weekend.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:43 am)
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:51 am)
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:54 am)Yes, it very much depends on the technology.
If you use a hybrid system (switching from gasoline to CNG in the same engine) the CNG mpg is not optimized. If the engine is optimized for CNG (such as higher compression ratio) the mpg/mpge difference is not so much.
Also, CNG gasoline equivalent is usually much cheaper than gasoline. In CNG states such as Oklahoma and Utah, CNG is a whole lot less.
I looked into getting a Honda GX and a home compressor a while back. The compressor alone costs around $5k installed. It also needs to be rebuilt every 5 years or so (at around $3k). This made home CNG very expensive compared to getting a regular gasoline Civic. The GX is way more expensive than an LX also.
Chrysler/Fiat (of all people) may begin importing rebadged CNG Fiat’s soon. Be interesting to see how this company deals with making a profit.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:01 pm)Chevrolet Volt Freedom Drive : Quick question. Is this full freedom or only partial as in 200/1700 = 12%.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:02 pm)“Freedom stands for both freedom from oil as well as freedom from range anxiety.”
Nice…I like that…it has a nice ring to it!
George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!!
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:04 pm)Ditto. I ran into the same exact issues a couple years back. It sounded like a winner, than when you started to look at all the details/costs, things were not as rosy.
The cost of the compressor and maintenance alone almost entirely removes any financial gains for moving away from gasoline. Then throw in the extra cost of the vehicle itself, and your in the red.
Perhaps if enough CNG commercial stations were available it might make sense, but I suspect the price of CNG would just “balance” out most of the economics.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:05 pm)Pardon my OT, but I need to catch up on something.
Google maps.
I had talked to Micheal last night, and we agreed that there is a concern about internet viruses getting into a Google Map or some other distracting thing happening on the map.
I saw a Garmin 3-d sort of road map on a Garmin Nav system in a Police Cruiser I saw at one of the shops I was teaching a seminar, and, I really immediately liked that Garmin 3D map right away!!
It seemed to have an immediately recognizable and processable (visually) 30 degree “flight angle” viewpoint. And, such a device is a “dedicated task” system, which can not become internet virus-corrupted. (Esp. if in a police cruiser).
So, just for the record, I would want that 3-d Garmin easily-processable map which needs far less visual time to process where you are actually at, for the sake of safety.
I don’t like the Google two-dimensional “ventral view” as I have seen in the Google Map (Map Quest seems better than Google, but not nearly as visually-process-friendly as is that Garmin one).
Internet connectivity *will* add a whole dimension of stress-potential for lots of us, even though most of the public may not think so. I would really hate it. (Very sorry Mr. Gates, but I want that Garmin map.)
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:10 pm)I don’t need no stinking GPS or map system. I buy a paper map every 5 years or so and hardly ever use that.
If you use GPS near my house, the new 161 highway has you going through a field!
-12
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:12 pm)(click to show comment)
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:16 pm)Trolling….trolling…over the ocean blue…hmmmmmm..hmmmmm
Happy 4th of July Maxy. (Do you celebrate our independence..I am sure you do!)
even the trolls need to be fed ocassionally…
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:16 pm)Thanks BillR
great video @#26
The only thing that gives me bigger goose bumps than the Blue Angels is the Thunderbirds
This video kind of fits, since I can only dream about the Volt right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4ybG6wXokQ
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:16 pm)Thanks for the “money matters” on that Loboc!!
(/..u-rock)!
-14
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:19 pm)(click to show comment)
-13
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:26 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:31 pm)Yes, unfortunately I was and had an odd numbered plate. Luckily I lived 2 miles from work at the time so I often walked. The Volt is a great idea and hopefully will be a great car. I’m sorry if I offended you by stating the obvious truths. You will use a LOT less gasoline and oil with a Volt and that’s a good thing, BUT… It doesn’t represent freedom from oil as represented. With all the cars good qualities there is no need to make a false statement about it, the car is good enough to stand on it’s true accomplishments. A volt owner is not free from oil so why announce it, it diminishes the real good qualities of it when people claim things it’s not.
loboc: You may be right. I didn’t think they were taking 5 days as you stated and are probably right. I thought they were driving the whole route in two days so I would guess the all electric miles will be more like 160 to 175 (40 miles is under ideal conditions, not 65mph on the highway with the a/c on like they will probably be doing). Sorry if people think I’m bashing but I’m not. The car looks like it’s going to be awesome, but c’mon it’s not freedom from oil, I think most reasonable people here understand that.
Happy 4th everyone!
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:38 pm)Freedom Drive miles at 1776–you know–that rings a bell.
Happy 4th to all.
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:49 pm)Great to see the VOLT on the road… great technology.
1.2 million cars sold in China… now just think if we had OPEN markets in Japan Germany and Korea… GM would have no money problems today and our economy would not be in such bad shape.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (12:56 pm)It’s interesting how carefully the Volt freedom route avoids NC, one of the original 13 states, so as to spend a lot of time in Tennessee, which was not.
In the meantime, the Charlotte NC newspaper todays carries an interesting story on preparations being made in NC to install charging stations. While nominally for any electric cars, the initiative is mainly about the Nissan Leaf, which has used NC as one of its main demonstration sites.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/07/03/1541291/plug-in-and-drive-out-recharge.html
GM must have some logic here, but it escapes me.
-10
Jul 3rd, 2010 (1:02 pm)(click to show comment)
-2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (1:14 pm)Somebody thinks the Prius Plug-in will rate 100 mpg+…
What’s the chance that a Volt with a lonr range hwy mode might forego 40 miles gas free for more miles at more mpg?
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (1:29 pm)How many people drive from Austin to NYC? This is an extreme trip.
Most people (78% is more than most, actually) just do their 9-5 job and their less-than-40-mile commute every day. In my particular commute, I will use zero gasoline. That’s a huge difference from my 16mpg regular driver right now.
Even a pure EV is not free from oil. There are plastics, lubricants, tires etc. that still use oil products. Heck, even the battery (know what ‘poly’ is made from?) uses oil-based products.
We only need to reduce oil usage by about 20% to make OPEC scramble. A lot of US oil (a huge amount) comes from ‘foreign’ countries like Canada and Mexico. Persian Gulf countries don’t contribute *all* oil that the US consumes.
The whole point is we are using way less oil products in Volt vs our current drives.
American fuel combined with an American car! That’s real freedom.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (1:39 pm)I personally have no problem with people driving Prii if that’s their thing. This will reduce oil usage similarly to other hybrids. (I just think they’re ugly. The cars, not the people.)
The whole point of designing a car with 40miles AER (vs 12 for plug-in Prius under certain conditions) is that more people will use less gas under all conditions.
The plug-in Prius is also a good idea, imho. It took a lot of convincing for Toyota to switch to Li-ion batteries and to install a plug. Without Volt, they probably would still be on NiMh with no plug.
100mpg is good. 230mpg is better.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (1:40 pm)I hadn’t heard of the term “Alarmist” but it’s certainly appropriate. Unfortunately the debate always seems to be between the “Alamrists” and the “Deniers” whereas the science is clearly somewhere in between. But for nuclear it’s a valid argument. We’ve known for probably a hundred years that, absent greenhouse gases, the average temperature of the earth would be -4 F. Because of greenhouse gases and the greenhouse effect the average temperature of the earth is about 60 F. So just as adding salt to water increases the boiling point, so adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere increases the temperature of the earth. That’s more or less just Climate 101. The problem is that teasing out what the actual numbers will be isn’t very easy because the system is very complicated, and unlike the salt water situation, there are many variables and feedback mechanisms. But there seems likely to be at least a 4 F effect.
But if nuclear displaces coal you get the same type of health and environmental benefits, only greater, than you get by having natural gas displace oil. These benefits would, however, be offset by a less secure grid (if that’s possible). The best strategy on the electrical side of the house would seem to be efficient appliances and LED light bulbs. Which I guess leads to the question: “How many light bulbs does it take to replace a nuclear plant off?” (Only kidding).
Jul 3rd, 2010 (1:52 pm)But what about a HWY only Mode that foregoes 40 miles gas free for lots of miles @ more mpg, might it not be good for Hwy use only?
-3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (2:34 pm)We have natural gas available here in our homes. You can fill up in
your own garage.
Makes you wonder if some states will seek to collection tax from those who plug in at home. After all, that has already happened for those creating biodiesel from used vegetable oil.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (2:34 pm)DonC said:
“How many light bulbs does it take to replace a nuclear plant off?” (Only kidding).
How fat does Ocean Algae have to get to absorb all the extra CO2? Just taking that off the top of my head, but I think there is something in the ocean that absorbs CO2.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (2:35 pm)He was supposed to participate in a WSOP event in Vegas.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 3rd, 2010 (2:38 pm)You don’t think they want to tweak Nissan in its home state, do you?
If there are enough stations, like in Utah, then it’s much cheaper. The problem is that in most of the country there aren’t a lot of CNG stations. The people I know who have the Civic GX love them because you can drive them in the HOV lanes. Saves a lot of time. They have the home filling stations and like never having to go to the gas station.
What’s interesting about their situations is that they have reasonably long highway commutes but aren’t stressed by the range, which suggests to me that most people aren’t going to be stressed by a 100 mile range on an EV.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (2:40 pm)The Freedom drive from Austin to New York is tremendous. I hope they schedule more cross-country drives during the summer so more folks in other parts of the country can see the Volt in person.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (2:40 pm)Those aftermarket upgrades do. The battery-pack capacity is quite a bit larger than what Toyota itself will be offering. Owners have reported getting roughly 30 miles per charge.
Remember, Toyota put a much higher priority on price than GM. In fact, their goal was stated in terms of cost rather than distance. They even said what that amount was: $4,000.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (2:43 pm)The thought did cross my mind
But as they won’t be selling any in Tennessee, I wondered if it would have been smarter to use the time someplace else with more symbolism or with more sales potential.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (2:44 pm)Maybe they were trying to get the mileage to come out at the 1776? I can see why you’d be concerned though. I doubt that they were intentionally trying to slight anyone.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:07 pm)“Freedom stands for both freedom from oil as well as freedom from range anxiety.”
The harsh truth is you can only have one or the other – not both. GM is being very disingenuous with these kinds of insincere marketing claims. I understand all companies do PR stunts, but GM isn’t fooling anyone with these claims. I think this “freedom drive” will come back to bite them just like the ridiculous mpg claim.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:12 pm)Ed Whitacre said this to preface the Volt Freedom Ride.
Nissan claimed 138 MPC.
It’s a revolutionary break away step from the auto business as usual toward freedom from oil. And GM with Coskata will make the next version of the Volt cellulosic ethanol ready. Or perhaps just E85 ready. Though all passenger cars using zero gas would “only” eliminate about 40% of US oil needs.
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:22 pm)I love the Volt and definitely hope to buy one, but I do agree with Anthony here. I don’t think it’s criticizing the car by saying it’s not giving the owner independence from oil. It is drastically educing the amount of oil you use and afford the owner the ability to drive the first 35-40 miles each day without spewing emissions as they drive. It is the best combination of zero emission driving with hybrid/duel fuel system available today without a doubt. Sorry Prius
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:23 pm)Check this one out:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-01/bmw-weaves-battery-powered-city-car-from-carbon-fiber-used-in-formula-one.html
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:33 pm)My goal is energy independence. The U.S. imports a lot of oil, but we also import natural gas.
We export coal. We have more than enough coal for at least the next 100 years.
We also have a lot of unused desert areas that can be used for closed loop algae production.
And we have a lot of unused bio-mass (forest/mill, crop residue, municipal waste, etc.).
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:35 pm)How exactly do we GET to Freedom, without taking a first step? The “harsh truth” is that the Volt is the only viable first step we have in hand. Id you have a better was to get where we need to go, I’m all ears.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-11
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:39 pm)(click to show comment)
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:39 pm)I disagree. With this car you can have both. I might own a Volt and never go beyond the all electric range. But with the Volt, and it’s never used, full 9 gallon tank of gas, I will never have range anxiety knowing the the ICE is always there backing me up, even if I never use it. Okay, okay. The gas goes stale and I have to drain and refill, but you get the idea. Impractical, yes. But it satisfies the having both argument, doesn’t it?
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:49 pm)It’s better than Nissan proclaiming ‘Zero Emissions’ with the LEAF and then telling people that having a second car (with a polluting ICE) would handle their long range needs.
-13
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:50 pm)(click to show comment)
-14
Jul 3rd, 2010 (3:57 pm)(click to show comment)
+6
Jul 3rd, 2010 (4:24 pm)Independence:
Independence from foriegn oil = if every American drove a VOLTec powertrain vehicle, we would never need to import any more petroleum. Yes, we would still need some, but we could control it ourselves.
Independence from Range Anxiety = over 70% of Americans would not need gas on a daily basis, for everyone else, the VOLT allows as long a trip as they are required to make on any given day.
Independence Day = as in July 4th = the anniversary of the day that Greatest Country on Earth declared its Independence and provided its citizens with the greatest freedoms on earth.
Is the VOLT the final solution? By no means…. but it represents a quantum leap forward. Welcome to the VOLT generation.
Happy Independence Day to All!!!
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (4:30 pm)If all personal vehicles in the U.S. were configured like the Volt, the U.S. would at least be free of the Middle East oil, and would primarily just be importing oil from those countries that lie in the Western Hemisphere. Of course, I would certainly not call that “total freedom” from oil, but it’s a damn good first step in the right direction.
As Obama would say, we shouldn’t let the pursuit of the perfect become the enemy of doing what needs to be done.
Sincerely, George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!!
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (4:43 pm)George said:
If all personal vehicles in the U.S. were configured like the Volt, the U.S. would at least be free of the Middle East oil, and would primarily just be importing oil from those countries that lie in the Western Hemisphere.
Amen +1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (4:51 pm)I think you mean that greenhouse gases cause a 64 degree effect. -4 to 60. Without the greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere the earth would be a cold and barren place somewhat like the moon.
The question of the debate is whether changing one of the many greenhouse gases (in this case C02) from 3 to 4 C02 molecules per 10,000 atmospheric molecules will lead to the death, destruction, droughts, floods, hurricanes, and many other scary things predicted by the alarmists and whether man has caused this change in the trace gas C02 from 3/10,000 to 4/10,000.
+5
Jul 3rd, 2010 (4:56 pm)There is no one in this country who is free from oil. It is used everywhere. Even to produce the blessed Leaf. Without oil, the country would come to a standstill right now.
Given that, I will take freedom from range anxiety which is another way of saying I will not live my life within bounds dictated to me by a $30,000 dollar automobile.
I think you are being to harsh on GM and their freedom ride. The Volt will really give many a feeling of freedom as they charge at home and rarely use gasoline.
+4
Jul 3rd, 2010 (5:01 pm)No matter how many Volts or Leafs or Tesla Model S cars are sold the next 5 years it’s great to know that these cars are here! Like the Prius which I think everyone would agree isn’t just going to vanish, neither will these new electric cars. It’s such a fantastic thing to think about. Any child born today won’t have to pump dirty combustible gas when they get their first car.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (5:08 pm)Don’t overlook the other benefits of electric drive. Economy with smooth quiet power.
BTW: Visited my local Chevy dealer this weekend. The news they have is consistant with the statements we have heard here at gm volt dot com. And they say they are installing the charge station needed to be Volt certified.
Every day is a step closer.
=D-Volt
+5
Jul 3rd, 2010 (5:11 pm)I checked my online dictionary for the word ‘madeinxhina’
and this is what I found:
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (5:20 pm)That’s a horrible insult to cavemen everywhere, and I, for one, won’t stand by silently! Shame on you, Corvetteguy! Shame!
(but have a great 4th)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 3rd, 2010 (5:33 pm)Things are really getting exciting. Over the next 4 months we should get more and more details of the car along with the final pricing. I would assume it should start making the news alot too.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (5:39 pm)Less secure for the grid how?
Nuclear plants run 94% of the time, far greater than any other source of electricity.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (6:00 pm)LOL
Nah, the guy’s nowhere near that smart.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (6:09 pm)And in 16 to 18 years solar will most likely be down below 99 cents a watt making it a very smart and inexpensive way to power your e-rev for it’s 40 to 60 miles of daily electric driving. Urban gas stations will be far and few between, if there are any gas pumps left they will be on interstates.
I love capitalism but one of the negatives is constant sensational scandalous and scary stories to sell newspapers and make people watch the news. It’s why I love this site, with the exception of the punks who relentlessly try to be downers it’s mainly upbeat and positive here. When thinking of advances in science and technology how can you not be optimistic!
And here is an appeal to madeinxhina. Please try to stop being negative on here, we all understand that you dislike the fact that the Volt can still burn gasoline, but 97 percent of us here like that fact. I want one car that I drive almost solely on electricity most days, but still gives me the freedom to drive from Florida to California without stopping every few hours to charge. So why do you want to keep harping on it? Do you have a problem with a company giving people what they want? I have no problem with Nissan giving people what they want. I for one believe more Americans want what I want, one car that can accomplish all their needs.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (6:22 pm)According to INPO, the US has the highest uptime of the worlds nuclear fleet at over 90%. This is even better than it looks since the outages (1 in 18 months) are planned well in advance. unintended SCRAMs are very rare in todays fleet.
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (6:24 pm)Gm Volt is a great concept & now a reality …but it wont make much impact as price will be big factor that many folks in US wont be able to afford it plus the lazy fat & hooked on cheapm gas they are now getting poorer by the day . & most manufactring done outside …
Us has the cheapest gas in the western world & still drive their 1T SUV Trucks ..gas guzzlers nothing matters to these fat folks they dont want to face the reality that good ole days are gone ..they need to change & use less gas ..higher taxes on gas is one option to decrease use of oil but that will be the end of any politician ..so fat US citizens keep on driving the big SUV trucks while european & now china has better programs for BEV public transportation programs ..One would think that oil spill in Gulf would have taught these knuckle heads something but it had no affect except the whining about BP ..US has become bunch of whiners & lazy slouches sitting in front of TV & wayching make believe shows ..Reality is too painful …
-3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (6:25 pm)It’s a shame the Federal Govt. and GM were allowed to rip off the bondholders. Come out shiny and clean with a fresh start. Changed the law to rip them off during GM’s banktruptcy.
+3
Jul 3rd, 2010 (6:42 pm)I hope you at least think you’re a happy person.
-15
Jul 3rd, 2010 (6:46 pm)(click to show comment)
-13
Jul 3rd, 2010 (6:58 pm)(click to show comment)
+7
Jul 3rd, 2010 (7:12 pm)I think the bell you are talking about is in Philly, the are going to NYC.
The only bell in NYC is the Taco Bell !
+2
Jul 3rd, 2010 (7:30 pm)Um… a 2000# car is a sports car. A proper SUV weighs at least 3 tons.
-7
Jul 3rd, 2010 (7:34 pm)To all of you that suffer from Range Anxiety, you do NOT need a Volt to cure your ills.
I would suggest instead you simply seek appropriate counseling. We have many many new drugs to help you battle your Range Anxiety.
Good luck with your medication. I hope everything works out for you guys in Volt Nation.
Get Well Soon,
Phil PhD (not the M.D.)
Jul 3rd, 2010 (7:50 pm)Did you run the numbers on using CNG (actually NG compressed using a compressor) at home? It’s inordinately expensive to buy and maintain an NG compressor.
In most cases, these alternative fuel cars (electric, NG, etc.) are exempt from taxes because the governments can’t figure out how to collect or enforce collection for road use. Heck, Internet trade has been around since the ’90s. Sales taxes are still exempted in most cases.
This ain’t Singapore, this is the U S of A!
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (8:28 pm)With 4 engineers in that Nissan thing? They must have pushed the last 40 miles!!!!!
Buy a Volt. Plug in. Drive where you want, when you want!!!
Happy 4th!!!
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:08 pm)The goal of energy “independence” is misplaced. If the US produced all the oil it needed but oil was still a strategic commodity our national security would still be compromised.
We do import some natural gas but that’s going to be history very quickly. You don’t see any new investments in regasification plants for LPG at this point. What you see are investments in shale gas with estimated recoverable reserves using today’s technology estimated at 347 Trillion cubic feet. Plus our allies also have a lot of shale gas available — Western Europe and so forth. Where the gas is located is as important as how much there is, and shale gas is located where we want it to be.
Coal would be great but for the fact that it’s far healthier to put your mouth over an exhaust pipe than a coal stack. Being alive and healthy isn’t an insignificant goal. Moreover, since shale gas is more or less found in the same areas and in the same quantities as coal, if you have a hundred years worth of coal you probably have a hundred years worth of shale gas.
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:14 pm)The most secure grid is a decentralized grid and the least secure grid has the most concentrated power product. (We know from arcade games that it’s easier to hit a big target than a whole lot more little targets). Nuclear is at the centralized end of the spectrum. Rooftop solar would be at the other. Other methods of production are somewhere in between. Using less energy is of course the easiest way to make the grid more secure.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:30 pm)There are actually two questions. One is how many degrees man made greenhouse gas emissions will raise the temperature. Two is what are the impacts of that increase. The 4 F number was just the probable low end of the estimate assuming that we stay on the current trajectory. But the system is very complicated and greenhouse gases are hardly the only influence on temperature. A volcano eruption like Krakatoa might cool the earth by several times that amount and its effects could last for a hundred years.
The problem is that, as you allude to, some assume the worst or worse than the worst and start forecasting all manner of catastrophes. At the other end some deny the fact that there is such a thing as the greenhouse gas effect by pointing out that it’s cold during the winter at one place or another. Basically you end up with two groups knocking down strawmen.
+4
Jul 3rd, 2010 (9:56 pm)I don’t know about you, but I will be happy when high school starts up again.
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:05 pm)That’s based on a from the hip assumptions not factual statistics.
The HV transmission system is one of the most reliable things man is responsible for creating. That’s why it is such news when it goes down.
+8
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:05 pm)Went to Criswell Chevrolet in Gaithersburg, MD today. Saw everything, including under the hood. Took pictures of everything, except under the hood. Tony Posawatz held court and was knowledgeable, well-spoken, and had every message down pat. The car was apparently one of the 80 initial verification cars built last summer.
What I saw and heard:
First year Volt will have few options. Leather and the Bose stereo are two of them.
The roof will be painted black as will be the lower edge of the hatch, below the tail lights, standard for at least the first year.
Built-in navigation will be standard for the first year. May be an option in future years.
No sunroof or glass roof option.
The lower cladding will be matte gray — no paint to match the rest of the body in the first year.
The cargo cover will be a post-delivery (dealer installed?) option.
The look of the engine/motor/electronics covers under the hood isn’t final on the prototype.
The front turn signals are conventional bulbs, not LEDs.
The glowing blue zig zag under the headlights is now just a chrome band.
The prototype had perforated charcoal leather seats. Looked good, felt comfortable.
The graphics trim panels on the inside of the front doors have the designer’s signature writ very small at the trailing edge.
Are you still reading? “The first marketing materials, including purchasing process and pricing, should begin to be available within the next month.”
“Even fully loaded, I don’t see the car hitting $48K.”
Jul 3rd, 2010 (10:43 pm)A Tony Posawatz quote? or yours?
For the right price, almost anything is possible. To impress me…the quote would be…“Even fully loaded, I don’t see the car hitting $28K.” (before tax credits)
-5
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:18 pm)Happy July 4th Volt fans! Not too sure why some people are so upset about the Freedom Drive?
I known that the distance will require a lot of charging for the 1776 miles to be covered, but if they’re up to it, what’s the big deal? Freedom from oil & range anxiety is a good thing!
Oh, unless they run this car on gas/oil, then that’s not really the truth, is it? I mean, I’ve driven 1776 miles over a few days. Does that mean I did a Freedom Drive, too? Although I used gas when I did. Ah well, it’s still Freedom from range anxiety at least! One out of two isn’t bad…
Back to the bbq!!!
GO EV!!!
+1
Jul 3rd, 2010 (11:21 pm)Thanks for the info. I was unable to attain a kitchen pass today. Have company coming for the 4th and had a mile long honey-do list.
Jul 4th, 2010 (12:07 am)Eco_Turbo: That was an article that I wanted to show to everybody I just thought it was interesting and I think it’s most important for the electric car market to expand and to compete against each other not to dominate as one.
+1
Jul 4th, 2010 (12:10 am)I asked him if it might hit $48K, the “quote” is a paraphrase of his response.
A fully loaded Prius is $32K (check for yourselves on Toyota’s web site and “build your own”). How are you proposing to sell a Volt with its huge battery for less than a Prius with its dinky battery?
Jul 4th, 2010 (12:19 am)Baltimore17
“Even fully loaded, I don’t see the car hitting $48K.”
JeffB
A Tony Posawatz quote? or yours?
For the right price, almost anything is possible. To impress me…the quote would be…“Even fully loaded, I don’t see the car hitting $28K.” (before tax credits)
—
Arrrg !!!! up to 48K ??? Pretty ugly number. 28K is a lot prettier. Low 30K range is doable… Simple economics at 48K makes this car less interesting especially when a Prius can still be a great stand in until a competitor comes along with a meaningful number.
If this 48K is true I will be very sad for GM. They will not have to worry about high demand.
Jul 4th, 2010 (12:56 am)No. It’s completely insecure.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/26/power.at.risk/index.html
Or you can listen to James Woolsey, the former head of the CIA who now specializes in grid security, or lack thereof. His take is that a twelve year old could hack he system (a ten year old would take half an hour).
http://www.viddler.com/explore/CleanSkiesNews/videos/378/
+1
Jul 4th, 2010 (1:03 am)Well I guess we’ll know in a month or so. I agree that at $48K GM won’t have much of a waiting list. (Not sure whether “few options” and “fully loaded” go that well together). If nothing else spousal cross exams can be tedious …
Jul 4th, 2010 (1:27 am)That is utter bunk by people who are trying to raise FUD. When those articles came out, many people in the utility industry laughed about how much BS was contained in them.
The most extreme computer security is applied at nuclear power plants. They run sniffers continuously looking for rogue wireless and will show up with people carrying guns if one was ever spotted. No networking of any controllers or protective relays is permitted. Many are programmable over TCP/IP, but they must be programmed in person by a laptop and then the connection removed as soon as the update is done. Nuclear plants are dispatched by voice so that there isn’t any form of networking entering the plant, even from the isolated power system network.
The utility network is not physically connected to the internet. I’m not talking fire-walled, it is not connected in any way. In most cases the communication lines run along with power lines.
If it was as easy to do, it would have happened somewhere already.
Distributed power is far more vulnerable. If it becomes mainstream, it must be centrally controllable. Having distributed generation makes it far more susceptible to hacking because it simply can’t be done over private networks.
-8
Jul 4th, 2010 (1:39 am)A higher price Volt will be ideal to start with ..so it gets in the hands of educated folks & not in the hands of stoopids knuckleheads who will drive it as a gas car [majority of folks fall in this category in US..with very low level of education & thinking ] …which more likely to happen with a price tag of upper 30′s … in the hands of educated & environmental conscious folks will make a better use of this car ..If GM is smart it will build more cars for europe, Canada China & latin america…
-2
Jul 4th, 2010 (2:00 am)Say that to my face.
Jul 4th, 2010 (5:57 am)Problem is these markets with high level of thinking put huge tariffs on American products because they know they can’t compete.
Jul 4th, 2010 (6:54 am)I’m with you on nuclear plant security, its tight and that is good.. Distributed Power can be made locally self controlled, and by definition will be a lot more rugged than what we have now… but its going to be a long time before its implemented.
Jul 4th, 2010 (8:04 am)Toyota is making a very HEFTY profit at $32k for a loaded Prius, GM would be happy to get that, it would be equivalent to the $55k light duty PU that normally sells for $20k base.. I forget what the latest list consensus on battery cost but $11 probably is not too far from true, so add $11k to the Prius $22k and you end up with $33k (you still need to account for a nav unit).. and this assumes GM is getting the motors/inverters and other accessories at the same cost as Toyota.. and that I doubt.
The latest I heard is that Toyota had lowered the cost of the HSD to less than $2000.. and that includes a 1.6kwh battery. If you compare a 2010 Matrix to a Prius, and adjust for options you come up with the hybrid premium of only $1500 for the Prius.
I believe for marketing reasons the Volt will come very close to matching the $32k cost of the LEAF.. at some loss until they can get mass manufacturing cost savings. A lot depends on the cost of the modified 2 Mode transmission that is made in Mexico.
Jul 4th, 2010 (8:06 am)Couple of points….first, route-planning a trip from Texas to NYC, most folks would follow pretty much the same route (I-40 as far as Knoxville, then head north on I-81 a ways before angling eastward, avoiding the congestion along I-95 as long as possible)…secondly, and I’d guess a factor in the choice, was the ripe opportunity to flash some Volt where Nissan lives, lobbies and works with local governments on charging infrastructure.
Jul 4th, 2010 (8:33 am)You don’t know, what you don’t know.
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/ADA477619.pdf
Jul 4th, 2010 (12:55 pm)Honestly I don’t get you point in linking that article.
In one case we are talking about the civilian power network and in the other we are talking about power for the military under battle conditions.
I work on distributed power now. Nearly all of the grid connected systems won’t work without the grid. You can put up a wind turbine or a solar panel, but without the grid they don’t work.
To make them grid independent they require local storage. We offer turbine systems that will do both – when the grid is there the turbine is grid interactive; when the grid isn’t there it will work with the battery. We sell very few of those systems because the battery isn’t covered under incentives and nobody wants to pay the $4-5K for the battery bank. The only customers for the battery systems are those without utility power at all.