Honda was the first automaker to sell a mainstream hybrid when it launched the first generation Insight in 1999 ahead of Toyota releasing the first Prius.
That car, being a tiny 2-seater, didn’t sell well and was ultimately discontinued. Meanwhile the Prius surged ahead through three generations and the became the world’s best selling hybrid by far.
After paltry interval sales of Civic and Accord hybrids, Honda re-entered the dedicated hybrid scene last year with its mild hybrid second generation Insight, offering 5 seats and 40/43 mpg fuel economy. Honda had hoped to sell 100,000 Insights that first year but only wound up selling about 25,000.
Now in a continued effort to pick up hybrid market share, the automaker has unveiled a new first-in-class dedicated sports hybrid called the CR-Z.
The CR-Z is another 2-seater that is built on the same platform as the Insight but with a more sporty exterior design, slight handling improvements, and a slight increase in horsepower.
The car will start at $19,200 for a manual transmission model, and the fully loaded automatic CVT version with navigation will go for $23,100. Official fuel economy rating comes in at 31 mpg city/37 mpg highway/34 mpg combined for the manual transmission and 35/39/37 for the CVT version (plus a $750 destination charge).
A 1.5 L V-Tec four cylinder engine is the powerplant and hybridization is achieved with Honda’s Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) technology. This incorporates a small 13 hp (10 kw) ultrathin electric motor that operates in parallel with the combustion engine to add power during acceleration and to recapture energy during deceleration. Energy is stored in a 100 V nickel battery. This system is actually the sixth revision of the original IMA that debuted in the 2000 Insight.
The car has no ability to drive on the electric motor only, and additional fuel economy is achieved by stopping the engine during idling.
The gas engine produces 112 horsepower (125 hp total when combined with the electric motor) and the car can be driven in sport, normal, or economy mode. Economy mode dampens acceleration, and sports mode allows for full acceleration potential.
The car has been test driven by multiple media outlets who don’t seem particularly enthused overall. Zero to 60 time is about 10 seconds, not very impressive for a sports car. Curb weight, suspension, and handling is similar to albeit it a bit more sporty than the 5-seat Insight.
Honda executives were apparently uncertain about whether to release this car at all. Though it is selling well initially in Japan it remains to be seen how it does in the US market when it goes on sale here on August 24th.
Considering the more practical, higher fuel economy, Insight can only muster about 1500 units per month, chances are the CR-Z may not fare too well.
So while you may lament GM’s low production ramp up for the Volt, it appears Honda fans have much less to look forward to.
This entry was posted on Saturday, June 26th, 2010 at 6:13 am and is filed under Competitors, Hybrid. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+20
Jun 26th, 2010 (6:25 am)It sure will be nice when hybrids are considered gas hogs, compared to cars like Volt that use practically no gas at all, “practically”.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (6:37 am)Honda would be wise not bring this car in the US. If they do, they will be sorry.
+6
Jun 26th, 2010 (6:54 am)This Honda is a gas hog when compared to the 1980s Honda CRX that is reported to get 50 mpg hwy on todays mileage tests.
+29
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:02 am)First of all I think the Volt will be successful and I hope it is successful. That said, I am sure I will get -1 vote on this… But stories like the initial hybrid Honda in 1999 and their new launch not looking good are probably also why GM is slowly going to ramp up production. The Volt is their “Moon Shot” as Bob Lutz said years ago. If it fails, they need to avoid all the collateral damage that would put the company under for good. Its a lot easier to start with 10K vehicles year one and maybe 30-50K in year 2 and understand how well it really is accepted. Also, what if they missed something? It is easier to fix and control a problem with only about 50K vehicles on the road versus hundreds of thousands. With the technology involved on the VOLT, I look at the first 2 production years as being the final test phase. When real people drive and abuse the car versus the several hundred GM engineers that are driving these things around marveling at what they have accomplished. And while there is all this enthusiasm on this site and others for this vehicle with a list of 50K people, how does that compare to what GM’s marketing groups are finding in surveys they are conducting. They have to take everything into consideration. They may be finding that the mass market is saying this is a 60K/year car.
I suspect that the education level of the people on this site is very high, yet sometimes I wonder where peoples heads are when it comes to patience. Everyone on this site will be able to get one within 3 years of launch if the Volt technology is “as advertised” and is accepted. Price may be out of reach for a few, but maybe you can start saving up now. I suspect I will be buying my Volt in 4 years. Technology will be better and cost will be lower.
+4
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:05 am)I used to own 1988 Honda CRX HF. I would regularly achieve 40-45 mpg, but as I recall the hwy rating at that time was in the low 40 mpg range.
Since the new mpg score is less than the prior method, I would assume it would rate in the mid to upper 30′s. I doubt it would reach anything near 50 mpg.
I loved that little car. It drove great, looked great (for an economy car), and the mpg was super. I got rid of it about 9 years ago, but have regretted not pumping cash into that car to keep it running.
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:11 am)Sounds like the same thing you say when your looking to buy a computer or any other electronic whiz-bang device.
Just wait a couple years, it will be better and cheaper…but then in a couple years, you repeat yourself. Sometimes you just need to leap!
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:13 am)This car specs suck egg. The mighty 2011 Ford Mustang is more sporty (300HP, 0-60 in 5.2 seconds) and has gotten 48.5 MPG on the track (hypermiling).
http://detnews.com/article/20100625/AUTO01/6250346/Ford-engineers-squeeze-out-48.5-mpg-in-a-2011-Mustang
Seems like they could do better with such a tiny motor. (1.5L vs. 3.7L Ford)
-5
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:23 am)Who cares? Who cares about this inferior technology?
Lyle .. you shoule post the price of the VOLT in Japan!
+4
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:24 am)Off topic — the following thing is happening to me on this site today. Beside the post I get an ad for the Ford Fusion Hybrid that says “click here.” So I do, and I get a page that shows me my zip code (how it knows it I don’t know), and says “3 near you”, click here. So I do, and after messing around with the page some it shows me the word “hybrid” greyed out and several dealers with non-hybrid Ford Fusions in stock.
Will this pattern be the future for ads for the Volt?
(see ad, click, get word “Volt” greyed out, these dealers have Cruze….)
-24
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:26 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:45 am)Yes and the early adopters are the leapers. Maybe you bought the Altair 8800 in 1975 or a Commodore 64 in 1982, but computers for the masses really did not take off until 1995-1998. (yes I had the Commodore in college and it sucked, it had a cassette drive and I had to keep adding “sprites” to write any data base that would help me organize my engineering formulas). I am not saying you have to wait 21 years (1974-1995), but buying an IBM 286 in 1991 and buying a Dell with Pentium in 1995, there was definitely a technology leap and cost reduction to make computers available to the masses. So I want to thank you for taking the leap at the higher cost, which will enable me to buy better at lower cost in 4 years!
+4
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:48 am)Come on James. Give Lyle some slack.
He is just reporting on a new car that is not even meeting Honda’s original goal. The CR-Z is being bashed by almost every independent auto reviewer. Do you want him to blow some fairy dust upon the CR-Z, and make up a story about how this car could be a real winner? The CR-Z is not going to succeed, and that is based upon reading many articles from many sources. I was hoping that the CR-Z was going to become the next CRX, but it just ain’t in the cards.
BTW: it’s 5000 ft. not mi, but I know you just made a mistake.
+4
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:51 am)1980 TRS-80 model II. 16k RAM, cassette drive, I still have it stored in my shed (squirrels made a nest in the box this spring, so I had to take it out and dust it off). I just cannot throw it away, but my wife just keeps asking why….
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:54 am)Based on the sales of the Insight and other previous iterations of the IMA Honda Hybrids, I can’t see this new CRZ as having potential. It’s not a good sign when even the Honda excutives are skeptical of the car’s potential for success.
My advice to Honda would be to take the FCX Clarity, remove the expensive Hydrogen fuel cell, and replace it with a small gas engine and make the car an EREV. It wouldn’t be terribly difficult for them to do just that. But for whatever reason, the high-ups at Honda aren’t fans of EV’s. So be it, I guess.
-1
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:56 am)Here is your next car….Honda P-NUT!
http://automobiles.honda.com/p-nut/
Not sure what happens in a minor rear-end collision. Seems like your car would likely be totaled or at a minimum put out of commission for a while. Having rear tire protrude beyond the protection of the car body is insane! I guess that’s why it’s just a concept.
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:58 am)The color is right! And at what could be half the price of the Volt it would be a viable choice. Not as much technology as compared to the Volt, but a much better choice than another pickup truck.
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:11 am)Jimza Skeptic said:
if the Volt technology is “as advertised” and is accepted.
I can’t for the life of me figure out what Volt technology has to be accepted. I drove the car, and it drives just like the ICE car I drove to the show. (OK, a little slower and a lot quieter) IMO the missing seat is the only attribute that needs to be accepted. Maybe some people like going to the gas station, but I think not.
-2
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:14 am)Well, I’m not cutting GM some slack – thus, I’m not cutting Lyle any either. I think Lyle would want me ( and all of us ) to hold true to our convictions, as does he. I really do believe Lyle is a standup guy, an intelligent, professional who sincerely believes GM will follow up on it’s promises. That said, I can’t endorse anybody who bashes Prius or CR-Z or any car that has potential to reduce our dependency on foreign ( AND DOMESTIC – DEAD SEA CREATING ) oil. I see regular reports of Insight sedan owners getting far over the listed EPA mileage figures on daily driving. Many feel CR-Zs with the CVT will easily top 40 mpg.. Admittedly, not “ooooh and ahhhh” numbers, but it is a sporty looking car with eco cred. It’s sales numbers may surprise. Remember, the CRX really made no sense on paper either, but it did sell relatively well.
Auto journalists universally pan hybrids – all hybrids. We know, as a whole, they love anything expensive and fast, and they can care less whether it runs off of nuclear fuel, or spews acid as long as it corners like a go kart and roars, making them feel like a kid again. It pains me sometimes, how much these guys get paid to be so woefully short-sighted. We can, however, all be guilty at times of being too nostaglic. I myself owned a red CRX back in the day and I loved the cheap plastic, reliable,buzzy, sporty little rascal – even when I crammed a third passenger, sans seatbelt, into the hatch area like a complete idiot. But that was then…..
The CR-Z to me, fails because it lacks a plug, but that could change. If Honda sticks with it, as it did the CRX and comes out with a second generation, or a “Del Sol”….plug in – it should recieve our kudos. Who else is using Honda’s creativity to battle Toyota’s Prius stronghold on the market? Honda tries, although it may be lacking alot of …….Insight…. sorry for the cheap pun….
Lastly, sorry for the ( mi/ft ) typo, it’s 6am here. I think my FCX – Volt comparo is just and valid. On the deep sea oil rig front. I have some very intriguing facts. Did you know the Obama administration just “loaned” 20 billion of our dollars into Brazil’s national oil company? And, even more jaw-dropping, did you know this company, Petrobras, an oil giant, will be using this money to deep sea oil drill to 2,777 meters? The legal limit for deep sea oil drilling in the USA is around 1200 meters, yet our government has put a moratoreum on drilling even 500 FEET for at least six months. Simultaneously we the people just “loaned” Petrobras 20 billion to drill 2,777 meters! Somebody tell me A) the logic, and B) why Obama isn’t having his butt handed to him by the press over this?
Hope your Saturday is an enjoyable one,
RECHARGE!
James
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:18 am)My wife tossed my Commodore 64 and my Tandy TL 1000 about 2 years ago…. Something about taking up space!!! the TL1000 had 4 or 8 mhz. It could sense if a program was written for one or the other and switch!!!!!
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:23 am)The marketing people are as useless as….. Asking people who never drove an electric vehicle their opinion about things like range anxiety, EV performance, etc. If they want to gauge interest, start selling the damned cars!!! The initial production should be presold.
+4
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:24 am)Yet another (mild) hybrid.
People are not going to buy a hybrid (see GM’s failure in this area) that costs more and doesn’t perform just to get the ‘green’ label. In a two-seater, 10-seconds to 60mph is pathetic. Anything less than the current Prius standard for MPG won’t cut it.
We will eventually see some hybrid designs that leverage the low-end torque of electric motors and complement the gas engine. (See Karma.) GM’s dual-mode is a step in this direction, but, you can’t buy one for less than $50k. Put dual-mode in a WT instead of an LTZ and you might actually sell some. Give me 10 miles AER (and a plug) to get to Home Depot and back and ya got a winner.
Show us a two-seater that goes 0-60 in 5 seconds and gets 60MPG city and then ya got something.
This new Honda is a baby step. We need a leap.
+8
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:24 am)It’s amazing that a company can be so advanced in design and engineering and be so backwards in marketing and strategy.
Honda is still dreaming for the hydrogen era that will not come (for the masses). Their half-assed 10 kW hybrid is an insult and should not even be called a hybrid. How about HAH (half-assed-hybrid)? Yeah, that rolls off the tongue and is more fitting. Good work Honda for showing how little you support EVs. My guess is that they have a bunch of old Japanese bosses that just have to retire before things change, or they are simply forced to change by the market. By then, Honda will be way behind.
I bet the young Honda engineers just hate the situation, even though they would never say so.
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:29 am)I don’t understand Honda’s insistance on sticking with their hybrid model where the gas engine is always involved. I sincerely hope that the Volt is successful and we see many copycat all electric drive-trains married to any number of powerplants.
How about this for a concept – a car company that makes the body along with drivetrain and safety equipment … and they allow a third party to “plug-in” a power source that adheres to a spec. One could pick a diesel turbine, ICE, big battery … would be pretty amazing imho.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:36 am)James,
Your comments aren’t very logical. They seem more about politics then anything.
The Volt, albeit probably more expensive then the hybrids, wiil offer something the competition simply doesn’t offer–range extension and an MPG that can be as good as you want it to be with no downside. I praise GM for taking the extra time with the Volt to get it right.
I wonder how people like yourself get so far off the path. Wake up and get on a site that would appreciate your comments.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:37 am)Saw this nice detailed description of the CRZ hybrid technology the other day. Simplicity I believe would be its selling point. For all you KISSers out there enjoy!
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/18/deep-dive-getting-intimate-with-the-2010-honda-cr-zs-powertrai/
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:41 am)Lol. good one.
Exactly my thinking about this one. Nobody is leveraging the power of the electric motor except to somewhat offset some missing torque from the gas engine. This is the wimpy approach.
The Volt design is heads above anything else out there.
-1
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:44 am)I will always fall for the “Retro” shifter. So there is some appeal to the shifty CR-Z. Now if Honda would take a baby step like this http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/8184 and decouple an enlarged motor from the ICE and install a proper plug in big honking battery they would have something.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:57 am)I think if you drive normal/conservative in “eco” mode ( the way most people will drive a hybrid) you’ll see the following real world results:
2010 Prius: 49 mpg
2010 Insight: 46 mpg
2011 CR-Z: 42 mpg
The 2008 EPA testing methodology is good but not perfect. Too many and too hard acceleration schedules on the city test favor the series/parallel setup but put a penalty on Honda’s IMA (and VW’s turbocharged diesel).
Another real world factor that hurts the Prius more than others is it’s high (side) profile. Put the prius out on the open rode (where you’re exposed to the winds) at open road highway speeds (i.e 70 to 75 mph) and the Prius mpg will fall off rapidly. In the Insight/Jetta TDI/ and I suspect the CR-Z … not so much.
/ many real world compo’s (and other countries mpg testing standards) have shown that the mpg gap between the Prius and the Insight is less than the EPA testing standards have shown.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:13 am)Its an excellent way to do a hybrid, is just that Honda uses a really tiny electric motor in a somewhat heavy car.. the new Sonata Hybrid uses basically the same tech and watch it become a bestseller.
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:15 am)Post haste edit -
2 billion, 20 billion – 1200 meters, 1550 meters…..it’s all just numbers, right? Sorry for my 6am inaccuracies today – next time I’ll check and recheck my numbers before I post – The sad truth is I wanted to respond to this article early enough to get some readers on a Saturday. Next time I’ll have a couple cups o’ Joe before I post.
Again, sorry for my errors.
RECHARGE!
James
+8
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:17 am)Wow, the specs and useability on this car makes the Cruze and Fiesta look like a steal. Way to go GM and Ford. I would take a Cruze or Fiesta over this car any day.
Hawk
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:18 am)“The car has no ability to drive on the electric motor only, and additional fuel economy is achieved by stopping the engine during idling.”
Maybe someone commented on this part already.
But why would I or any EV person be interested in this car??????
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:24 am)Obviously, no one can beat the Prius on price, Toyota raised the price a few months ago because they could. They will undercut anyone who tries to compete with it. Someone’s going to have to compete with them on efficiency, and the CRZ and Insight are not doing it. I can’t believe with Honda’s 6th generation IMA, they have no improved fuel efficiency at all since they released the Insight (probably in Japan years before it even reached the US). This efficiency leap frogging is what inspired the Volt. Make something more efficient than the Prius and figure out how to compete on price later.
Automakers really need to think outside the box and see where it goes. Honda needs to develop a better hybrid system. Once the Cruze hits dealers getting better fuel efficiency than the CRZ with a lower price, less maintenance (not hybrid), and likely even better handling (everyone raves about the handling in the Cruze), Honda might go that extra mile.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:44 am)Back in the eighties, every time I picked up my Motorola Brick phone to make a phone call, I swore I would never buy another Motorola phone. But I’ve had three since then and have one now.
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:46 am)That was my exact thought, +1. Why would anyone get this instead of a Cruze. It doesn’t help the “get off oil” argument enough to help at all.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:52 am)So, it isn’t a sports car so much as a sort of ‘non-sedentary’ car. I guess we’re meant to take what we can get!
The situation with the Insight is even sadder than Lyle suggests: When I went to a Honda dealer (for the first time ever) to look at a Fit, the salesman kept wanting me to go look at an Insight. In other words, an ICE-only car was Honda’s ‘Halo’ for promoting it’s hybrid! Saddest of all perhaps; the salesman gave up in resignation fairly quickly: “What can I say? The man wants a Fit.”
To be fair, it isn’t just efficiency that Honda is going for: The Insight is the first hybrid which makes sense on a purely economic basis. You save money on gas, and the car isn’t more expensive than the cost of that gas. Honda is racing Toyota to the inevitable future of the mild hybrid: bottom of segment.
The car’s conspicuous lack of success should give those who question the Volt’s economics some pause …
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:55 am)Anyone who has a problem with GM taking a new technology and for 1 year wanting it to be a little more controlled and put all their resources behind important markets, I.E. Washington (Politicians) and California (Celebs/Free Press) and (Environmental Journalists) is just impatient and not thinking too straight. Year two. 50 to 60 thousand is a good number, thats 200 to 250 thousand Volts in the next 5 years. These aren’t cheap cars. I think we will all be happy if GM can even sell that many from now until late 2015. I’m tired of hearing they aren’t making enough when they haven’t even started selling em yet and we have no idea the real demand
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:15 am)This kind of thing is what’s going to replace the pure ICE car. No, the Prius isn’t going anywhere, even with the unqualified success of LEAF and Volt. What will go away is it’s “On Fire in Hollywood” status. With an advantage in having already paid for Prius’s development and production tooling, Toyota’s most likely response to BEV / EREV success will be price reduction. This will greatly increase sales, for a time. Ironically, before it goes away, the Prius could save more gas than in all the previous years put together. It will have taken a one-upping (if not a two or three-upping) to get it down off of it’s pedestal in order to achieve this.
Last year Prius sales motto: “Any shape the customer wants, as long as it’s a Shoe.”
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:18 am)James, Anyone tell you that you look a lot like Jamie Lee Curtis?
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:25 am)Call me nuts but i was expecting this look for the volt ( sporty ). The fist generation insight still looks good for me.
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:26 am)When I look at the mechanical design of the CR-Z power train, I’m left with the impression that Honda is still stuck on step one of the transition away from conventional ICE drive trains.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:28 am)Can anyone doubt that Volt will knock the snot out of this approach, in nearly every area? Nearly every: Yes, it costs 50% more, after incentives; in it’s first iteration. When the EREV20 version of Volt comes out in 4 – 5 years, Honda is going to be in some serious trouble.
Honda is engine-centric. Remember, they are heavily invested in all kinds of engine-containing products, from motorcycles and lawnmowers to generators. I could see them coming out with an EREV, but not until those old guys Texas mentioned have retired (nor will it’s ‘generator’ be able to replace the full output of whatever battery pack is used; it will be the Gen III approach where a constant-speed generator produces the car’s average power, rather than it’s peak: In other words, others (GM!) will lead.
I wonder if Honda’s future in EVs is as a manufacturer of gensets for other makes?
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:33 am)A couple of issues. The “Moon Shot” was made with respect to the technology not the marketing. As for marketing, spending a ton of money on development and then frittering away the advantage that expenditure has gotten you is … a … lot … like … the … old … GM.
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:38 am)The CRZ is a good looking car but not very impressive on the mpg. I remember in high school when they came out they were all over the parking lot. Great little cars.
The Volt will do well and GM should not me tip toeing into the water. Everyone that I speak to would love to have what it offers and yes the range anxiety is real. GM just needs to price it right and make it available. They will not be able to keep them on the lots.
Go EV’s….
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:39 am)Rather than this CR-Z, which seems like a solution in search of a problem, I would have much preferred, and given Honda many kudos for, coming out with a CNG Accord. They have the ONLY CNG passenger vehicle in NA in the Civic. That’s great but it’s a very small car. Why not actually contribute to alternative fuel development by stepping it up a bit?
-7
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:41 am)Hi, John.
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:41 am)The setup sound exactly like the “mild hybrid” Chevrolet Malibu, which was not well received and got a lot of negative press because it was not a ‘true hybrid’.
Honda has always done well on styling. It’s a cool looking 2-seater. It will have a limited market. But for the same or less money, the Cruze will give you more bang for the buck.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:51 am)It’s rather attractive but I’ll keep my ’95 del Sol si with its 119k miles and steady 32 mpg.
Honda has peaked and is slowly on the downslide – they need to come up with a mainstream home run if they want their reputation to retain a high level of respect. They are depending too much on quirky, offbeat products like the Element, Fit, Ridgeline and now this. Meanwhile, competition has caught up with their standard, mainstream choices – Accord and Civic.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:02 am)It’s going to be interesting to see what kind of “tuner” kits become available for the CR-Z.
Those of the reduce oil consumption mindset may groan at the idea if they assume this leads to a drop in fuel economy. . . . . but what if the drivetrain upgrades come in on the electric side of the house?
/I’m thinking a nice little 3kwh lithium plug-in pack would significantly increase acceleration and wouldn’t break the piggy bank in the process. Increased mpg (when not chirping the tires) would be a bonus.
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:06 am)Honda should rip out the ICE and drop in a 35-40kwh pack. It would go 130-160 miles (real world) per charge and be faster than this version is. Then it would really be a worthy successor to the CRX that was a great little car for the era.
This little car isn’t a family car that needs to take 3 kids on vacation. It’s mostly for a younger customer that uses it for commuting/college/pleasure and 140 mile range would be perfect for 95% of that group as long as they don’t live in an extremely rural location.
DO something special Honda. You’re always content being just another face in the crowd.
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:12 am)TOM – Honda should rip out the ICE and drop in a 35-40kwh pack. It would go 130-160 miles (real world) per charge and be faster than this version is.
I agree 100% +1 for you.
-1
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:15 am)OH MY – SOMEONE PLEASE HELP US IT’S MEGATRON IN DESUISE!
Is it just me or does the front of this thing look like a Transformer?
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:27 am)Maybe a better way to think about “getting off of foreign oil” might be
“getting off of Gulf deep well oil”.
If you notice that the Gulf of Mexico is surrounded about 90 percent by land, and,
that also the Gulf stream really isn’t all that fast a mover of the pollution, subsurface plumes, the surface oil slicks, etc, one might consider that if one fourth of the Gulf has the potential of long term damage already just from one disaster, there may be the potential of the hundreds or so still out there and getting older every year, and increasing the risk again and again.
One news story on TV said that half of those blowout preventers would/do not work. Maybe that was referring to the manufacturer of it, or maybe for some other reason.
Getting off of Gulf oil might be a higher priority now. What do you think?
/ … OT, has anyone tried that new Clear wireless? I’m thinking of getting it for $30 a month.
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:38 am)A quick search of the internets reveals the tuner crowd is frothing at the bit for this car (and a type R is supposedly already in development).
It’s inevitable (imo) that they’ll end up going for battery packs to boost acceleration. This could be a lot of fun — and I’m starting to want one of my own to play with.
http://wot.motortrend.com/6650958/green/spoon-starts-to-tune-2011-honda-cr-z/index.html
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/03/hks-takes-on-honda-cr-z-coupe-anyone.html
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1042747_report-honda-cr-z-type-r-in-the-works
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:39 am)rated highway mpg at the time was in the 50s. According to wiki, the HF model would now rate 41/50 by todays standards.
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:49 am)#54 add,
The Fast and the Furious ‘AND’ the Eco-conscious??? ……. yeaaaaah buddy!
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:49 am)Fail
(sorry, I just don’t know who the customer is for this)
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:50 am)Post Script to my above post.
Another PBS report said that the oil has caused the oxygen levels in those affected areas to drop 75%, and that all fish from these affected areas have migrated to the coast, including all the deep water large sharks (the 200 to 300 pound ones). So, if there were a way to calculate any benefit to “getting off of foreign oil”, then, it ought to be compared to the huge and increasing costs of getting the domestically-leaking oil (a foreign substance to be sure) out of our coastlines.
So, the argument for “no foreign oil” may become rather moot.
As well, that judge who stopped the moratorium on those 32 exploratory wells had not done the arithmetic here, because there was no apparent judicial-examination described regarding the technology relating to those possibly-defective blowout preventers that media had brought into question. Clearly, the greater good for the greater number had not entered sufficiently into the mind of that judge, is how it seemed from that TV report.
We can’t afford any more of these sorts of disasters.
Oil will sell however it is going to sell on the open markets. This idea of “securing” oil reserves is really a half-century old type of WW2 thinking/obsolete concern, due to the globalization of everything.
Jun 26th, 2010 (11:59 am)#32
Right. Next case. +1
Jun 26th, 2010 (12:03 pm)#33
Our local Toyota dealers are advertising package 2 Priuses for $1800 off MSRP today. Package 4 & 5, $3K off.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (12:19 pm)Looooong forum thread on IMA (gen 1 insights) converted to plug-in.
http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/13265-phev-insight.html
The tuner crowd will likely push the plug in mods on the CR-Z’s. I could see a CR-Z with a plug-in lithium pack mod getting 0-60 in under 6 seconds in sport mode while returning day in day out mpg’s in the 80′s+ in eco mode.
I’m interested.
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (12:25 pm)Those are interesting images to compare
Your point about CR-Z availability is a good one. We should not knock available cars too much whilst the Volt is yet a mirage.
Jun 26th, 2010 (1:17 pm)The Chevy Cruze will be a much more desirable car over the CR-Z. Thee Cruze will get just as good gas mileage and, it’s not a hybrid, will have more room, and have safety that’s second to none.
Honda will make a big mistake if the CR-Z is brought to the the US. I predict they will not bring it here.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (1:33 pm)#22
True that. +1 How sad.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (1:39 pm)The argument aimed at “foreign oil” was always dumb. Makes a nice sound bite but it has always been vacuous.
As long as oil is the most strategically important commodity in the world, and so long as OPEC holds 80% of the world supply and is the low cost producer, the threat to national security depends not on whether the oil is domestic or foreign. The goal is to break oil as the crucial energy technology regardless of source.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (1:40 pm)#61
No one can deny that the gen 1 Insight was an engineering tour de force, and a stunning car in its day. I almost bought one, much against my Chevy (sorry, Chevrolet – old/bad habits die hard, LOL) upbringing, but my wife is a staunch member of the “no 2 seat cars for everyday driving” party, so no go.
It’s just a shame that, after having been such courageous and groundbreaking pioneers, Honda has made so little progress since then.
Jun 26th, 2010 (1:45 pm)#63
Even though I’m one of the Chevrolet faithful, I would bet that the Cruze, while it might equal the CR-Z on the highway cycle, will fall short on the city and combined. Having said that, I agree that they aren’t likely to sell very many CR-Zs here.
Jun 26th, 2010 (1:49 pm)When a person drops bait… what’s that called?
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:04 pm)As a follow up to my #65 about why the problem is dependence on oil is the problem, not dependence on foreign oil, I found little clip from James Woolsey, the former head of the CIA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spgoo1ScnO4
-1
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:28 pm)Beats me, you’re the expert.
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:30 pm)Spoon’s already got a tuner kit that takes the CR-Z down to 6.9 seconds on the 0 to 60 — that’s just from tweaking on the ICE side, wait till they work the electric.
I see the CR-Z as having decent sales and a “cult” potential.
World Exclusive Test: 2011 Spoon Sports CR-Z – Road Test
Spoon makes the sporty Honda CR-Z a true sports car.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/car/world-exclusive-test-2011-spoon-sports-cr-z
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_Sports
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:34 pm)Again, I preface with the fact that I want VOLT to succeed partly because I want GM to succeed and partly because I think the technology is a leap toward energy Independence. But I also look at the whole picture.
Storm – Marketing people could very well be useless, it depends on who they have. Part of marketing is market research. Take the Segway transporter. Everyone should agree they had great marketing. Getting onto many morning shows for free prior to launch. Dean Kamen getting onto various TV news magazines teasing everyone. Then when it launched hardly anyone bought it. I am sure there market research said this was going to sell like crazy in urban environments. But it did not because people did not accept it. In the end, if you go back on Youtube to the old clips, it works as advertised, but it did not fit peoples lifestyles, while somebody’s research said it would.
DonC – Again Marketing could design the perfect plan based on the technology as advertised. And I agree that Lutz’s “Moon Shot” comment was about technology. But what if after 2 years the technology fails or falls short. And I am not saying Titanic disaster, but say the batteries only get 15 miles on average. Or cold days they find cars drive slow for some reason. Or there is some other unforeseen issue that causes the mass market not to adopt. With only a small amount of cars on the market after 2 years, GM can fix problems or retool expectations.
ECO-Turbo – I don’t disagree with your driving experience. However, people have to fit the car and the technology. I am sure there is enthusiasm to sell out the first two years of production. But there could be lots of reasons why it does not fit the mass population lifestyle. Part of it may be cost, part of it may be the technology. My house/garage can handle being set up and convenient for charging at night. Yet I know that about 25% of my neighbors leave cars out as the garage is packed full of stuff (Boats, Jet Skis, Bikes, etc.) I do not see them adjusting their life style for setting up overnight charging.
Market research needs to evaluate all lifestyles, see how the technology fits in and work with Sales and manufacturing to craft a plan that balances the reality of the market with production.
-1
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:35 pm)I believe they are called a Master Baiter.
-1
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:36 pm)According to the ‘first mention’ articles (over a year ago), Honda was going to use the Insight’s “pancake” motor in subsequent hybrid offerings. This motor is “off the shelf” for Honda, and easy to integrate into it’s drive trains; but it’s power is nothing to write home about. You might try all kinds of things to make it run longer in acceleration cycles, but perhaps at the risk of shortening it’s life from exceeding heat tolerances? I’m just asking.
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:37 pm)Fishing
-1
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:40 pm)I figured that was you negging every comment I made, right out of the gate. I’m now willing to admit that I might have been mistaken.
That would’ve been pretty early on a Saturday for someone West of the Great Divide.
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (2:46 pm)The Volt plans are well ahead of the original Prius plans. The prius was developed and then sold only in Japan for two whole years at a manufacturing rate of 12K units per year.
It seems that GM is pretty aggressive with the new technology. 60K in two years and some world wide sales.
I have long thought that GM should not mass produce Volt V1.0. No matter how much we love it, Version 2.0 will be better and has a high probability of being cheaper. This is the car that should see the ramp up on production rates. Version 1 is like that original prius (which had many problems) and GM is in line with what other large companies have done as far as ramping up production goes.
Since no other serious EREV is hitting the streets anytime soon, GM is out in front and should stay there for a while with this technology. By the time the others catch on, GM will be producing a refined Version 2.0 volt.
Jun 26th, 2010 (3:14 pm)No doubt. Everything’s got its limits. I’ve read the HCH’s electric motor is bigger than the original Insight’s. How those electric motors compare to what’s in the Insight II or the CR-Z? … I don’t know.
I do remember reading where the Inisight II’s chief engineer said that if someone was looking for more performance he’d go for the electric first (vs the ICE). (can’t find the link now)
/shops like Spoon will probably go with ICE tuning first because they’re gonna go with what they know. It’ll take a little time for the additional batt pack/electronics/electric motor tuning products to develop.
Jun 26th, 2010 (3:24 pm)That’s how I feel, but it is not what I’m thinking. There are lots of smart people at gm. As someone said yesterday, the important people are focused on the IPO. Volt is the halo car, and management is trying to exploit it.
One seriously wonders if Volts introduction is being maneuvered around, somehow, to try to promote the IPO. Maybe a big announcement of the Volt just before the IPO (“coincidentally”), but then too late for any Volt issues to surface before the IPO process is finished. Hard to say, but these two things are somehow connected.
Then, post IPO, there will be new management, and all the “where do we go from here?” issues will be kicked down the line to somebody else. Convenient, though.
+2
Jun 26th, 2010 (3:29 pm)shhhhhhhhhhhh!
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (3:45 pm)+10 !! Remember the “Moon Shot” started with Mercury, Gemini and 10 Apollo missions before Apollo 11 landed on the moon in about 10 years. It could take 9 years and a few burned up rockets before the technology is successfully implemented into the mass market. As long as it gets there is whats important!
-1
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:03 pm)What dog and pony show? That’s the opposite of the problem, we haven’t seen any thing from GM. And for a sensitive guy (hey guys why’d I get a -2 for that one?), you sure can dish it out.
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:06 pm)Complete agreement with both of you.
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:09 pm)Honda’s website lists the max output of their electric motors as follows:
HCH: 15 kw
Accord Hybrid: 12 kw
Insight: 10 kw
CR-Z: 10 kw
/ so maybe the CR-Z tuner plug-in batt pack will need to include an upgraded electric motor
http://world.honda.com/INSIGHT/spec/index.html
http://world.honda.com/AccordHybrid/design/index.html
http://world.honda.com/CR-Z/spec/index.html
http://world.honda.com/CIVICHYBRID/3-stage-i-vtec/
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:13 pm)GM, If you’re reading this, have a contest where you find good hardworking people, perhaps single moms or something who have maybe a couple kids, make decent money but times are tough for them. Find people who are worthy, home owners, have a place to charge at home and drive less than the 40 miles per day and give out say a free lease of a Volt once a month. It’d be really good PR and it’d show the country the cost savings of electricity vs gasoline as well. Plus it’d be fantastic for the families.
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:15 pm)More powerful windings? Redesign the cooling?
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:17 pm)Oprah treatment for the Volt?
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:29 pm)The CR-Z type R will (rumored) have a much larger electric motor — 50 hp (vs the current CR-Z’s 13 hp). Combine that with an upgraded 150 hp ICE and you’re going to have a whole lot of torque and power twisting the front rollers on that little 2 seater (woot — look out for torque steer!).
/probably less “modding” required for a plug-in performance upgrade.
Honda CR-Z Type R Coming In 2011
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/honda-cr-z-type-r-coming-in-2011-ar85219.html
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:41 pm)The GM engineering teams are not filled with incompetents. They’ve had the packs for two and a half years, and they’ve been driving around using them for more than two years. There may be some failures but it’s hard to imagine the failures you’re positing.
Hopefully GM doesn’t share this attitude. To be successful you need a sense of urgency. That’s why start ups are successful: Nothing focuses the mind like running out of money before the product ships. Tesla is a good example of how it works. It shipped a real product after three years and spent $187M. (GM is taking four years and is presumably spending more like a $1B.)
The point is that your competitors are not sitting around waiting for you to slowly and methodically work out the kinks of your new products. Two years ago who thought than Nissan would be so far along with the development of its EV? Given that the appeal of the EREV design is probably at its maximum now — when the fear of range anxiety is at its maximum because virtually no one has the experience to understand that a BEV might work for them — GM needs to move. The road of losers is littered with companies that were convinced that their competitors would not catch up. (GM sort of reminds me of IBM with OS2 — too slow and timid to win big).
Moreover, all the hemming and hawing and lack of positive production predictions fundamentally undermines confidence in the Volt and GM’s commitment to it. Look at Nissan. It has a Gen II Leaf in the works which will doubtless be less expensive and superior in a number of ways, including the battery pack. What is it saying about its production of the first generation Leaf? Is it saying “we’ll build some and see how it goes”? No. It’s saying: “This is the first car of the future and it will lead to our worldwide domination of the car business and we’re going to start by making 250,000 of these puppies”. If this is what you’re hearing what car would you want to buy? IOW the lack of vision on the part of GM management is damaging the Volt’s chances of market success. Whether management intends this as a result or not.
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:46 pm)This is not a car I’d want but, unlike the base CR-V, I get it. And probably a lot of other drivers will as well, though it’s not going to outsell the Accord.
Jun 26th, 2010 (4:56 pm)Gm has a 2 Gen Volt coming in 2012-2013.
Jun 26th, 2010 (5:06 pm)Also were is the 2 Gen nissan Leaf at ?
Jun 26th, 2010 (5:40 pm)I don’t get it, what do you want them to do, build 100,000+ Volts and say the hell with the reliabilty here’s your car enjoy.
+3
Jun 26th, 2010 (6:14 pm)Don…. ahhhhhh. We will have to agree to disagree on approach. I am saying GM has a great technology, which is game changing, but they also has to temper it with common sense to survive and thrive. You guys can beat on marketing and the sales team all you want. But I know they are in top level meetings with the engineering and manufacturing groups. An actuary has gathered data from everybody and presents various risk/reward scenarios. Right now everyone is probably agreeing on a ramp up plan that they can all live with. Tesla is bleeding money right now and Tesla has nothing to lose. If they fail, Elon Musk and his cronies still walk away with millions. Nissan did not take a big leap in technology. They took a very safe route to what I think is going to be low end technology and fall way short of the EREV from GM. I applaud the early adopters. We need them. Again, I will get my VOLT in 4 years. Tesla & Nissan and the others will be wait and see, but my money is on GM. (Well my tax money really is on them!)
+1
Jun 26th, 2010 (6:25 pm)Guess the auto-mod thingy doesn’t like my link. Anyway,
Forums are showing mpg results from overseas CR-Z owners …
Low: 28.7 mpg
High: 46.1 mpg
YMMV
/still looks like low 40′s in eco mode (normal/conservative) isn’t going to be a problem
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:20 pm)If this car uses its electric motor due to tweaking – tuning over the ICE then I would be interested too.
I thought the Prius I bought in ’06 would use the electric motor more ( alone) and was disappointed. It is still the better car until the VOLT hits the street.
That is why the VOLT is so much more an exciting tech advancement over any other EV out today.
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:40 pm)“Chief engineer Norio Tomobe indicated that if — hypothetically — it were up to him to develop an Si, he’d add juice on the electric side of the equation. Sounds great to us. Between Tomobe’s E-boosting, and some Mugen ministrations to the gasser, the rice-rocket folks will be in their glory.”
First Test: 2011 Honda CR-Z U.S. Spec
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hatchbacks/1006_2011_honda_cr_z_us_spec_first_drive/specs.html
Jun 26th, 2010 (7:50 pm)An easy way to increase the power is to increase the voltage, power is proportional to the square of voltage. They got lots of room to grow, its only 100V now.
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:55 pm)P = V * I, Not sure where your getting the squared term from?
Now, power losses will be I^2/R, so, at higher voltage you need less current, and therefore your losses are reduced.
It’s a tradeoff between using high voltage, that requires more expensive insulation and will have safety and arc concerns, and higher currents, which will require more copper or equivalent conducting material.
Power
Jun 26th, 2010 (8:59 pm)The Honda Insight has no head room in the back seat. Honda’s response is to make it a two-seater.
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:25 pm)CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED. Looking forward to arrival.
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:31 pm)OT:
I visited a Ford dealer again today. In the past their was discussion about automakers making it mandatory that you get all your maintanence through a certified shop.
Well, today I got the same story. Ford dealer said they have a special “Warranty forever” for the engine and drive train. The catch is that you have to either bring it to the dealer OR (I had to keep from laughing when he said this) you have to call the Ford 800 number to let them know what service you were having done and with who (they would need to be “certified”, so I would bet any small shop would not be allowed). So, if I need to have Jiffy lube change my oil, I need to call Ford.
For one thing I ain’t calling big bro’ Ford, every time I need to change my oil. And second I ALWAYS change my own oil and perform the majority of service on it myself. I understand this “warranty forever” is considered an extra incentive, and I am under no obligation to follow the service rules, and that the warranty would be voided. But, it just rubs me wrong, and really turns me off to buying a Ford. (BTW: I was interested in the new Fiesta, and the sales guy was touting the new Fiesta as a game changer. They expect to receive the first cars in late July/early August).
My car search continues….
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:32 pm)Just back from three days of traveling around the West. Raised the topic of Chevrolet Volt a few times. The man-on-the-street vote is leaning toward interest in extended range over a 90 miles per charge BEV. And there seems to be less “must be Japanese” sentiment.
The Gulf spill is a big deal to all but one I talked with. He said, “We need to keep drilling in the Gulf or prices will go higher”.
=D-Volt
Jun 26th, 2010 (9:55 pm)Power can also be worked out with P = V^2/R.. since the windings in the motor remain the same the resistance does not change.
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:03 pm)I’ve always wondered why Honda Civics and Accords were so unreliable, and now I know — they made too many. C’mon, the more you make the better you get at making them.
Yup. Same old GM. Everybody hunkers down and agrees on the compromise choice. No vision needed. No risks incurred. (Better to be wrong with a save choice that everyone agrees on since actually making a decision and having it fail is unpardonable). Probably 400 Power Point slides per meeting. This is the process that created the Aztec (it tested well and if you lack a sense of style what else can you do?) and ran GM into bankruptcy. Apparently the culture hasn’t changed.
Jun 26th, 2010 (10:23 pm)Seems like all this means is that Ford doesn’t think that the engine or drive train is ever gonna break. No doubt they parsed the data seven ways from Sunday before they offered this. It’s kinda like the new “all service included” deals — sounds great but all it means is that you don’t need much service during the first few years.
Jun 27th, 2010 (12:50 am)This sounds like BS to me.
I specifically asked the service department about this when I bought my ’09 Ford. They told me if you change oil yourself just save the receipts and keep a log. (Same kind of thing probably any ‘reliable’ service center (GM, Ford, Toyota, whoever) is going to tell you).
You’re going to have to show me a link on this “800 number warranty forever only certified shops stuff”.
/maybe a cheesey dealer is trying to tell you this, but I don’t think it’s Ford.
Jun 27th, 2010 (1:08 am)#107 add,
I’m calling BS on the oil change, NOT the drive train work. If some shadetree shop rips deep into your tranny I think it’s understandable that warranties could be voided.
-1
Jun 27th, 2010 (2:41 am)yeah Drill baby Drill these morons in US will not lern anything ? ever unless we switch to alternate sources of power wind solar nuclear we will be beholden to corrupt arabs & prone to Gulf disasters ..No regulation baby ..
The fat spoiled folks in US need to learn …drive less, drive small cars , but Nooo they want it all so will pay the price like Gulf oil spill ..serves them right ..OR adapt to using less energy .. In europe oil demand is much smaller per capita cuz oil taxes are high & they have well organized public transportation system ..
Jun 27th, 2010 (7:32 pm)The difference is that Honda went to market with a car that had a pathetic improvement. GM is coming to market with a truly revolutionary car. If GM’s management can’t see the difference, they deserve to fail.
Jun 27th, 2010 (8:52 pm)The EPA numbers seem to under-estimate the Insight’s true potential.
- You can get 50 mpg in “econ” mode, suburban driving.
- On the highway, at 65, the computer is showing 52 mpg.
Jun 28th, 2010 (3:41 am)They should have put the wonderful V6 Accord Hybrid drivetrain into the 2 door Accord. Or stuffed it into the CR-Z. My 4 door V6 hybrid Accord does 0-60 in about 6.6 seconds and was rated at 30/39 (on the older ratings). In reality it gets around 27 in town and 36 on the freeway. But my wife and I drive it like we’re stealing it. No kidding. Once I drove the speed limit on the freeway (it was trafficky for a couple hundred miles between Seattle and Portland) and got about 42. When I bought it there was no other car that had such a blend of size, speed and mileage. Plus as a bonus, it doesn’t use premium- something that seems to be a little rare among the popular V6 crowd.
And now there is none (with the closest thing probably being the hybrid Altima). Which is too bad, really; an opinion shared I’m sure by the other 6000 people who bought them but apparently few others felt that way.
Ah, well, I’m tired of looking backward. I’m happy to be looking forward to the next step of full electric drivetrains. Hybrids are SOOOO late 90′s.
Jun 28th, 2010 (11:00 pm)The days of getting 40 to 45 mpg with a conventional (non hybrid, non electric) car are looong over. Today’s car’s are simply too heavy.
Jul 25th, 2010 (4:11 pm)Of all the money making methods online, I prefer surveys. You don’t have to deal with starting a webpage which I find to be more of a hassle. It depends on how much work you put into it you can reach a couple hundred pretty fast.