Jun 17

Volt Owners Will be Eligible for 4400 Free 240 V Home Chargers

 

[ad#post_ad]Having a 240 volt home charging station will allow Volt owners to fully recharge their car from a depleted state in about 3 hours.  Though not essential because the car can recharge in 8 hours at standard 120V, the more rapid charging is a convenience.

Thanks to support from the Department of Energy, stemming from the Recovery Act, GM has announced that a total of 4400 Chevrolet Volt customers will eligible to receive free 240 V home chargers.

The first 1800 are coming from Coulomb Technologies and $37 million in grants which was announced earlier this month. Those level 2 stations are earmarked for home use in Austin, Texas, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York, Orlando, Fla., Sacramento, Calif., the San Jose/San Francisco Bay Area, Redmond, Wash., and Washington DC.  

Today, leading EV charging equipment maker ECOtality, announced it will be able to offer an additional 2600 chargers for Chevrolet Volt customers through a further $30 million grant and an expansion of the EV Project to include Los Angeles and Washington DC.  

In August ECOtality announced it had been awarded a $99.8 million DOE grant to be used for the installation of 12,500 level 2 charging systems and 250 level 3 fast charging stations in Phoenix (AZ), Tucson (AZ), San Diego (CA), Portland (OR), Eugene (OR), Salem (OR), Corvallis (OR), Seattle (WA), Nashville (TN), Knoxville (TN) and Chattanooga (TN) to support rollout of the Nissan LEAF.

Today’s announcement updates the arrangement to include GM Volt customers as well as those of Nissan, who will also get an additional 1000 chargers . The additional 2600 chargers will be installed for free in the home of Volt owners.  The 240 V chargers are on a 40 amp breaker and offer a nominal 32 amp to the vehicle.

“Many owners will plug their Volt into a normal 120-volt electrical outlet, charge overnight and drive to work in the morning using only battery power,” said Tony DiSalle, Product and Marketing Director for the Chevrolet Volt. “For Volt owners who want to install a faster 240-volt charge station, we expect the Department of Energy project to save $1,000 and $2,000.”

The program will collect data such as average charge time, energy usage and the starting and ending time of the charging process. This data will be analyzed by the U.S. Department of Energy to understand how electric vehicles are driven, how and when they are charged, and ultimately what is required for widespread adoption of electric vehicles.

“In addition to saving money, these projects offer Volt owners an opportunity to play a role in developing our collective understating of electric vehicles in the market,” DiSalle said.

The Coulomb and ECOtality chargers are distinct from the Lear-made Volt-specific chargers shown above that will be sold at Volt dealerships.

The Volt will come with a portable 120 v power cord standard, and buyers will have the option of a 240 Volt charger that can be purchased at dealerships.

Owners who live within the EV Project or Chargepoint America regions may apply for a free charger through Coulomb or ECOtality if they are willing to share their data with the DOE in exchange.

Source (ECOtality) and (GM)
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This entry was posted on Thursday, June 17th, 2010 at 8:05 am and is filed under Charging. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 199


  1. 1
    Dave

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:13 am)

    Any idea how the selection process will go for the grantees?


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    Rashiid Amul

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:14 am)

    So how much money are these things if I want to install one in my garage and don’t qualify for it for free?


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    Xiaowei1

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:25 am)

    Luckily for us in OZ, we have 240v standard for all outlets throughout the country. I would like to know if there is any benefit from having 3 phase hooked up to the home?


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:26 am)

    Maybe Nasaman will have one of the first Volts to witness a shuttle launch. 8-)


  5. 5
    Jim I

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:28 am)

    It seems completely unnecessary to me. And won’t GM be offering a 240V charging system of their own?

    And as far as GM is concerned, Ohio does not seem to be part of the United States anymore anyway……….

    ;-)


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    kdawg

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:31 am)

    This is good news. The Volt is not even out yet and there are already 3 options for chargers. Competition is good. I can see the cost of these chargers going down quickly if EV’s take off.


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    ocryan

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:32 am)

    I’m confused how this will all work. When you try to sign up for the free charger at ECOtality at the end of the survey it says that you need to purchase a Leaf first. I just scheduled my home assessment through the Leaf program for July 1st and it looks like you need to install the charger before you can buy the Leaf. So you need to install a charger to buy a Leaf, but you have to buy a Leaf before they will give you a free charger?

    I’m only interested in doing this because the common standard for the charger will work with the Volt also. My plan at this point is to have a Volt AND a Leaf, but my sense is that I’ll have the Leaf for a year or two before I can actually get the Volt based on production.


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    N2N

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:34 am)

    Everyone seems to be on the 220V recharging bandwagon (especially if you want a LEAF), but have people looked at the electric capacity they might have?

    In this part of the country (Massachusetts), typical modern houses will have 200A service with big 220v loads of:
    50A – Range
    30A – Dryer
    30A – Hot Water Heater
    30A – Air conditioner

    That’s 140A already. Plus the other 20-30 110v circuits. (Plus I happen to have a 240v-20A well pump and a 240v-20A pool pump) Another 40A circuit for the recharger is quite possibly going to put you over. (I realize none of these devices draw to the limit, but it is easy to see all of the big draws coming on at the same time ).

    So it is possible that people will be limited to their service amperage. Hmmm, we might see standard power to houses move up another notch again.


  9. 9
    John W (Tampa)

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:35 am)

    I hate to be negative here but having these at a home vs having one out in the public where it can raise awareness really seems short sighted to me. I can understand wanting to get information on how the home user might charge but do you really need 2,000 in homes? I’d think 1,000 tops would be sufficient. I think they only call 1,000 people when they do important political polls.

    Regardless, I hope at least Lyle gets a free charger since I assume he won’t be getting a free Volt.

    And one last thought, I was thinking of the future the other day and a parent or grandfather having to explain to a kid what the world was like when everyone put flamable liquid into their cars.


  10. 10
    John Es

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:38 am)

    I hope the vast majority of charging EVs occurs at night. 110 seems adequate for this.


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    Starcast

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:40 am)

    Why?

    I don’t get it, just more government waste. At least use the money for public chargers. People would buy the home chargers if needed without this. So why?


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    LauraM

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:45 am)

    Starcast: I don’t get it, just more government waste. At least use the money for public chargers. People would buy the home chargers if needed without this. So why?

    I actually agree with this. Customers can pay for their own home chargers. Public money should be spent on public chargers.

    Now the government will have to throw in some more free home chargers for the LEAF. And every other company that makes a chargeable car.


  13. 13
    Herm

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:47 am)

    Jim I: It seems completely unnecessary to me. And won’t GM be offering a 240V charging system of their own?

    Yeah its completely unnecessary with the Volt, but its free money so get some while the getting is good. I’m sure the public chargers will be highly appreciated by everyone, including LEAF owners :)

    In any case it supports ECOtality and that is good.


  14. 14
    Matt

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:48 am)

    I would rather have the 120V charger at home to charge overnight and use the fast chargers in public places, where I am more likely to only be parked for a few hours, i.e. the mall, in order to get as much charge in that short amount of time as possible. In the majority of situations, this is where time-constrained charging will occur, not in the garage at night while you’re asleep.


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    neutron

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:51 am)

    N2N: Everyone seems to be on the 220V recharging bandwagon (especially if you want a LEAF), but have people looked at the electric capacity they might have?In this part of the country (Massachusetts), typical modern houses will have 200A service with big loads of: 50A – Range 30A – Dryer 30A – Hot Water Heater 30A – Air conditionerThat’s 140A already. Plus the other 20-30 110v circuits. (Plus I happen to have a 240v-20A well pump and a 240v-20A pool pump) Another 40A circuit for the recharger is quite possibly going to put you over. (I realize none of these devices draw to the limit, but it is easy to see all of the big draws coming on at the same time ).So it is possible that people will be limited to their service amperage. Hmmm, we might see standard power to houses move up another notch again.  

    The odds of using all of that power at once is low. And if for some reason you did.. that is why there are circuit breakers.

    Also one could get energy monitoring devices to give a detailed usage pattern. Then one could manage their power needs. If you qualified for a free charger the company will probably installed this monitoring system free :+}

    In most cases charging will probably take place at off peak times i.e. night.


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    neutron

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:57 am)

    Starcast: Why?I don’t get it, just more government waste. At least use the money for public chargers. People would buy the home chargers if needed without this. So why?  

    I think it is more related to getting chargers in homes so usage data could be collected. If there is going to be an electric car revolution everyone concerned will want to have that data for planning future demands and products. What better enticement to get people to give you data than “free”


  17. 17
    Herm

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:58 am)

    N2N: So it is possible that people will be limited to their service amperage. Hmmm, we might see standard power to houses move up another notch again.  

    You can also add smarts, perhaps controlled by the power company in exchange for bennies… run the pool pump, car charger, dishwashing machine, fridge and water heater preferably at night and with reduced rates.. and so on.

    The charger can also temporarily throttle down, controlled by the smart breaker panel.


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    jeffhre

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    LauraM: Now the government will have to throw in some more free home chargers for the LEAF. And every other company that makes a chargeable car. 

    That part was announced back in August. This announcement is only for the Volt.


  19. 19
    neutron

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    ocryan: So you need to install a charger to buy a Leaf, but you have to buy a Leaf before they will give you a free charger?

    There is a book about this….. “Catch 22″ :+}


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    storm

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    Anybody able to suggest a Michigan Chevy dealer that is likely to get an early Volt? Looks like buying out of state is my only chance of getting one in my lifetime.


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    LauraM

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:07 am)

    jeffhre: That part was announced back in August. This announcement is only for the Volt.

    The government is paying for free home chargers for the LEAF? I mean they have to if they are doing it for the Volt. (Unless they want to get into trouble with the WTO). But I’m surprised they announced the LEAF first…

    I remember them saying they were paying for home charging (in general). But I assumed that was for apartment buildings…


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    John Es

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:11 am)

    Herm:

    In any case it supports ECOtality and that is good.  

    Not if more coal is burned to support fast charging during peak demand. I agree with those that say this is a waste. I’m even questioning the $7500 tax credit. I’m all for the electrification of the automobile, but, tax breaks and credits are out of control, IMO.


  23. 23
    Guy Incognito

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:26 am)

    220, 240…whatever it takes ;-)


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    Evil Conservative

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:27 am)

    Don’t even do the math on what those chargers are costing the tax payers. 1800 chargers for $37 million and 2600 chargers for $30 million? Is that right? ….. what a crock!


  25. 25
    bitguru

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:30 am)

    “…Volt customers will eligible to receive free 220 V home chargers. The first 1800 are coming from Coulomb Technologies and $37 million in grants which was announced earlier this month. Those level 2 stations are earmarked for home use in” [9 areas]

    I don’t get it. I live in one of the 9 metro areas, but are these really for use in single-family homes?


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    Evil Conservative

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:32 am)

    Eco_Turbo: Maybe Nasaman will have one of the first Volts to witness a shuttle launch.   (Quote)

    I think the last launch is in September.


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:32 am)

    I’ll bet some or all of this will change, after a few phone calls and letters between Government and GM.


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    BLIND GUY

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:32 am)

    If we were able to purchase a Volt, I would want the 220v chargeras well as the option to charge at 120v. If I couldn’t get a free 220v charger I would purchase one and get around half the money back in tax credits. I would want the 220v charger for all the times we might come home and go back out for dinner or some other reason and wanted to get the most charge with the home charge opportunity. Otherwise, I would plug it in the 120v charger over-night.


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:35 am)

    Evil Conservative said:

    Last launch is in September.

    My bet is for the last launch sometime in 2011, either from delays or using backup shuttle for an added launch.


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    StevenU

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:39 am)

    N2N: I’m also from MA and currently building a garage (to house my Volt).

    My question is, do we know the current draw of the GM charger? Is it also 40A? I want to have the circuit run during the building of the garage. Not sure I will get the faster charger, but I have other uses for that circuit as well. Want to make sure it is not undersized.


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    DonC

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:40 am)

    LauraM: I actually agree with this. Customers can pay for their own home chargers. Public money should be spent on public chargers.

    It’s a test for crying out loud. DOE is trying to figure out what the infrastructure requirements are for EVs, which is why the public and private chargers will be concentrated in a few areas. FWIW the chargers aren’t altogether “free” in that you have to agree to allow your charging and driving information to be collected. Getting that information is a big part of the test program. Basically if you want decent information you have to spend money to get it. It’s just a fact of life.

    I’d contrast this with the home filling tax credit program for CNG vehicles. That program is designed to encourage the purchase of CNG vehicles rather than to gather information.


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    EVNow

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:42 am)

    Today we got a new mail from ECOtality.

    TEMPE – June 17, 2010 – ECOtality, Inc. (NASDAQ: ECTY), a leader in clean electric transportation and storage technologies, announced today that the U.S. Department of Energy has expanded The EV Project to include two new cities – Los Angeles, California and Washington, D.C. – and has broadened the offer of free home chargers to include qualified new owners of the Chevrolet Volt electric vehicle with extended-range capability. The expansion also adds an additional 1,000 Nissan LEAF cars zero-emission cars to the Project.

    This expansion will be funded by a $30 million U.S. Department of Energy grant extension to ECOtality’s EV Project, which was created through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA). This new Federal grant extension includes $15 million of ARRA funding, which will be matched with $15 million in private funds, to reach the total of $30 million.


  33. 33
    Dustin D Dealer

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:47 am)

    John W (Tampa): And one last thought, I was thinking of the future the other day and a parent or grandfather having to explain to a kid what the world was like when everyone put flamable liquid into their cars.  

    Louder for one.


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    Dustin D Dealer

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:50 am)

    I wanna see an 80,000 Volt SS that does burnouts at 50 mph. Hopefully in a few years.


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    mark yates

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:53 am)

    Are they assuming people only sleep for 4 hours? Not sure why you would want it for the volt? For the Leaf and your Mini it makes a big difference – the battery is larger and takes 12+ hours to charge on 110.


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    jeffhre

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:55 am)

    Starcast: Why?
    I don’t get it, just more government waste. At least use the money for public chargers. People would buy the home chargers if needed without this. So why? 

    Careful, that’s a good segue for a rant…

    Incentives, boy that’s American, two chickens in every pot, a free ride for the best education, money to drill oil wells, money for cheddar cheese (processed), money to build a toxic economic base and money to clean it up, two chargers in every garage, man let’s do it, it’s the American way.

    Because it’s the good ol’ USA. No one would ever accept a floor tax on gas. It’s highway robbery!! It’s treasonous, it’s unconstitutional, it’s blasphemous, it will cripple the rich, cause rampant unemployment, destroy the economy, mangle the lives of the poor, crush the futures of the innocent babes in their cribs. It’s every politicians third rail.

    And don’t clamor for term limits when you elect ‘em on promises they can’t keep. Don’t look to elect outsiders when the insiders were successful by telling you what you wanted to hear. You ever talk to politicians. I think they’re great by the way. They say basically what the electorate wants to hear, and they seem totally convinced they believe it. What a skill – after all you get’s what you pays for, the best.

    We’re Americans and we go with our guts. And when enough of our guts are full of venom and bile and fear and goading for any and all snap judgments (it’s only human nature right, just solve the issue I don’t care about the rest – classic single issue politics), might we get the politicians to cater to those needs?

    Pogo said a half century ago, I have seen the enemy sir, and it is us. At times that may just be true. How many people sit frustrated at work and say man I hate politics, and then proceed home to leave their entire futures in the hands of people voting on little more than gut reactions.

    You asked why. That’s easy, we’ll OK incentives for bringing out electric cars. But we won’t OK a stable, rational and predictable basis for adopting technology to get off oil, if it could lead to taxes.


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    flmark

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:57 am)

    Somebody, please explain this to me. Why isn’t the technology built into the car itself? My boat has the charger that came at purchase and a better one (charger-inverter) that I added. I plug into ANY 110 circuit, and I am ready to go. So what am I supposed to do when I go visit someone out of town and need to recharge before I return home? Recharge is about monitoring battery state (certainly something onboard) and thusly regulating voltage/current. I don’t want to hear about portable chargers- something to forget. Doesn’t that onboard generator ALREADY have charging capability (to handle the hills AFTER all electric range is finished)? If so, the circuitry is already in place. I should not need a special charger.


  38. 38
    Matthew_B

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:58 am)

    N2N: In this part of the country (Massachusetts), typical modern houses will have 200A service with big 220v loads of:
    50A – Range
    30A – Dryer
    30A – Hot Water Heater
    30A – Air conditioner

    That’s 140A already. Plus the other 20-30 110v circuits. (Plus I happen to have a 240v-20A well pump and a 240v-20A pool pump) Another 40A circuit for the recharger is quite possibly going to put you over. (I realize none of these devices draw to the limit, but it is easy to see all of the big draws coming on at the same time ).

    The NEC already heavily relies on load diversity* when calculating service sizes. Add up all of the breakers in your home and you find that they total 300 or more amps per leg.

    Unless you have a really big home or electric heat, 200A service should be plenty for a 32A charger. Unless you come home, plug in the car, start a load in the dryer, cook dinner with all burners and the oven in use together and take a shower on a hot day, it won’t be a problem.

    * “load diversity” is the term the NEC uses for non-simultaneous nature of many loads.

    The utilities use the same thing even on a larger scale. Most transformers feeding a single home are rated at 15kVA. That’s only 70A at 240V, even though the home has a 200A breaker.

    N2N: So it is possible that people will be limited to their service amperage. Hmmm, we might see standard power to houses move up another notch again.

    The price on 400A panels is dropping rapidly. 400A combined service disconnects (meter plus load center) once were $900, they are now $400 due to the volume of use.

    The most common have the meter, two 200A main breakers and space for 40 branch breakers fed from one of the 200A mains. The second 200A main feeds a sub panel located on in the center of the house. Usually the main panel gets the AC, water heater, dryer, furnace and some close branch circuits (garage, outdoor plugs, outdoor lights, etc…). The other panel picks up all of the branch circuits for the rest of the house. If you’re building a house right now, that might be the way to go and it really isn’t that much more expensive.


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    Frank D

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:59 am)

    I have a standard 220 outlet that is used for my dryer right in my garage. can anyone tell me if this can be used to charge the volt? Is there an adapter? If not, what could I do to utilize this outlet? Thanks all!


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    Matthew_B

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    John Es: I hope the vast majority of charging EVs occurs at night. 110 seems adequate for this.

    For a EREV, yes – to a degree. 120V charging eliminates recharging after you commute home for another trip that evening. With an EREV, that just means that you burn more gas.

    Not for a BEV. The LEAF takes 21 hours to fully recharge at 120V. Charging at 120V completely eliminates the possibility of making more than one trip per day.


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    Camaro Rules

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    Hope this will work with my Camaro soon to be converted to an EV !

    CamaroCrush2.gif


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    Matthew_B

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:03 am)

    LauraM:
    I actually agree with this. Customers can pay for their own home chargers.Public money should be spent on public chargers.
    Now the government will have to throw in some more free home chargers for the LEAF.And every other company that makes a chargeable car.  

    Clearly the first adopters of both cars don’t need any more incentives. The first 6 months of Volts and LEAFs will go for more than retail due to early adopter demand. Incentives won’t be needed for this.

    Incentives will get the following several 100′s of thousands sold.


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    Matthew_B

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:05 am)

    Herm: its free money so get some while the getting is good.

    That mentality killed Greece, is killing Europe and isn’t doing us a lot of good.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:05 am)

    StevenU: N2N: I’m also from MA and currently building a garage (to house my Volt).
    My question is, do we know the current draw of the GM charger? Is it also 40A? I want to have the circuit run during the building of the garage. Not sure I will get the faster charger, but I have other uses for that circuit as well. Want to make sure it is not undersized. 

    GM has said 240 v at 16 amps in the past.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:07 am)

    Guy Incognito: 220, 240…whatever it takes   

    Hey, the quote is “220, 221, whatever it takes”


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:12 am)

    jeffhre:

    StevenU: N2N: I’m also from MA and currently building a garage (to house my Volt).
    My question is, do we know the current draw of the GM charger? Is it also 40A? I want to have the circuit run during the building of the garage. Not sure I will get the faster charger, but I have other uses for that circuit as well. Want to make sure it is not undersized.

    jeffhre: GM has said 240 v at 16 amps in the past.

    I recall 16A when the GM charging engineer did a chat here on GM-Volt.com

    If you want to be really flexible, just have the electrician run 1-1/2″ conduit from the main panel to the front of where you park the car. The wires can be pulled in later easily and that’s big enough to cover any conceivable wire size needed in the future.


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    StevenU

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:13 am)

    StevenU: My question is, do we know the current draw of the GM charger?  (Quote)

    I found my answer in another article here that I must have missed:

    “Though not obviously necessary, the Volt will optionally charge at 240V (16 amps) in 3 to 4 hours. A wall mounted unit will be required.”

    Also thanks to the others that answered. 1.5″ conduit is a bit of overkill especially since the garage is on the opposite side of the house from the new garage.

    P.S. I was trained as an electrician in Tech School though never got my license when I went for my BSEE.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:17 am)

    That’s funny. I got an an email late yesterday from Nissan about charging…..

    [Name Here], home charging dock assessment appointments with AeroVironment are now available in your area. to set up an appointment, simply click here and get charged up today. if you have questions, just call 877-NO-GAS-EV or join the LEAF live chat.

    AeroVironment Inc. is the Nissan recommended partner certified to conduct the assessment and install the home charging dock for the Nissan LEAF™. You are under no obligation to use AeroVironment Inc. in this capacity. Should you elect to use an alternate installer, please call 1-877-NO-GAS-EV.

    Blah blah blah……Lawyerese crap…..

    The more charge stations the better! Let’s Gitterdone!!

    Also, I think ALL public charge stations should be 240VAC charging. 120VAC is really just a trickle charge. But of course that’s just IMHO.

    /Hate the fact that they will be monitoring (aka “gathering my data”) though.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:21 am)

    Matthew_B: John Es: I hope the vast majority of charging EVs occurs at night. 110 seems adequate for this.
    For a EREV, yes – to a degree. 120V charging eliminates recharging after you commute home for another trip that evening. With an EREV, that just means that you burn more gas.
    Not for a BEV. The LEAF takes 21 hours to fully recharge at 120V. Charging at 120V completely eliminates the possibility of making more than one trip per day.

    78% of daily commutes are less than 40 miles per day. If many drivers are getting about 70 miles per full charge that would leave about 30 miles left for folks who commute exactly 40 miles. With four hours of charging they could repeat their daily 40 mile drives. All of which is about as meaningless, generally speaking, as saying “Charging at 120V completely eliminates the possibility of making more than one trip per day.”

    People who buy electric cars will figure out how to make them work within the constraints of their needs. If not, I’m sure some kind person will petition for power of attorney and make their decisions for them.


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    Tim Hart

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:21 am)

    I guess just about anything that increases the speed of the transformation from ICEs to EVs is a good thing. 220 charging for the Leaf is absolutely essential, but for the Volt it would be nice to have but not necessary and cost more than it would be worth for most Volt owners.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:22 am)

    Matthew_B: I recall 16A when the GM charging engineer did a chat here on GM-Volt.com

    Yeah, and also for the 120VAC it was around 8-9A. They said they did not want to blow fuses.
    Whatever. I want to use the full 15A if possible or at least 13A but they dumbed it down to less than 10A for 120VAC charging. I think that’s kind of lame but that’s just me.
    So what about the good ol 120VAC 20A sockets? I have a couple in the trailer park round back. Sadly even if I use that, it will still dumbdown to less than 10A.
    Oh well.


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    David

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:23 am)

    It is not lost on me that right now as BP Execs are getting grilled over the debacle in the Gulf we are arguing the fine points of the rapid charging of EV’s – love the hell out of it!


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    kdawg

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:24 am)

    jeffhre: How many people sit frustrated at work and say man I hate politics, and then proceed home to leave their entire futures in the hands of people voting on little more than gut reactions.

    Or voting alphabetically :)
    (Alvin Greene.. LOL)


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    Dustin D Dealer

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:32 am)

    flmark: Somebody, please explain this to me.Why isn’t the technology built into the car itself? My boat has the charger that came at purchase and a better one (charger-inverter) that I added.I plug into ANY 110 circuit, and I am ready to go.So what am I supposed to do when I go visit someone out of town and need to recharge before I return home?Recharge is about monitoring battery state (certainly something onboard) and thusly regulating voltage/current.I don’t want to hear about portable chargers- something to forget.Doesn’t that onboard generator ALREADY have charging capability (to handle the hills AFTER all electric range is finished)?If so, the circuitry is already in place.I should not need a special charger.  

    The Leaf and Volt do have the tech built in. These are simply computers to send info to a database so they can monitor your usage.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:33 am)

    Cool! Now all we need is the car. Frankly I’m not so sure I agree with giving them away using taxpayer money, but who’s going to say no to free stuff? Look at the demographics of the early adopters.

    What’s required beyond a 240V line with the proper plug?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:34 am)

    Obamanation, you and people like you are truly what is wrong with the world. I’m so glad I only have to have contact with people like you through the computer.


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    Rashiid Amul

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:38 am)

    Obamanation: Who is going to pay for all this gubmint grants for home chargers ?Oh, I forgot…WE THE TAXPAYER
      

    Normally I would agree, but this seems extremely racist to me and totally uncalled for. It should be removed.


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    LauraM

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:45 am)

    Matthew_B: Clearly the first adopters of both cars don’t need any more incentives. The first 6 months of Volts and LEAFs will go for more than retail due to early adopter demand. Incentives won’t be needed for this.

    Incentives will get the following several 100’s of thousands sold.

    Exactly. Even if this is just to get information, there’s no reason to give them to early adopters who already have more than enough incentives. They should wait until the first rush is over.

    Of course, given GM’s stated production levels, that could take five years…


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    Biker Bob

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:46 am)

    What with all this HOME charging stuff. Some people don’t got home or are away from home.

    Curb Side Charging – The way it should be everywhere !!!

    electic-car1.gif


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    Noel Park

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:48 am)

    BLIND GUY: If we were able to purchase a Volt, I would want the 220v chargeras well as the option to charge at 120v.If I couldn’t get a free 220v charger I would purchase one and get around half the money back in tax credits.I would want the 220v charger for all the times we might come home and go back out for dinner or some other reason and wanted to get the most charge with the home charge opportunity.Otherwise, I would plug it in the 120v charger over-night.  

    #28

    Me too. +1

    At this point, I am all for ANYTHING which kickstarts the electric car market and slows down our oil addiction. It’s a good investment IMHO, and a whole lot cheaper than imperial wars.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:49 am)

    CaptJackSparrow: Also, I think ALL public charge stations should be 240VAC charging. 120VAC is really just a trickle charge. But of course that’s just IMHO.

    There won’t be any 120V chargers. That would be pointless since 120V plugs are everywhere. It is a test so it looks like they’re going with some 240V and a few 500V. The original eTec grant called for 260 fast chargers to be installed in the five test markets. That’s a lot of fast charging stations. Where I am we’d have more fast charging stations than Starbuck stores! Since the first announcements the number of markets has expanded so I’m not sure how this will work out in practice.

    Also of interest, in a separate plan, Nissan is putting in 240V chargers at 2200 of its dealers and 500V fast chargers at 200 of its dealers. The goal is to have a fast charger available within 40 Km of every point in the US (sounds better than it is because you may not be heading in that direction). For those having a stroke that a “foreign” company is getting chargers, the Nissan 240V chargers will be totally paid for by Nissan, will work with any EV using the standard plug, and drivers of other EVs, like the Volt, are free to use them.

    Nissan is really out in front on the charging issue in a way that GM simply isn’t, perhaps because the Volt obviates the need for a charging infrastructure.


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    Timaaayyy!!!

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:53 am)

    I get around by my own power. Do I get an even bigger credit?


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    neutron

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:55 am)

    On a HAPPY Note:
    GM announced that there will be NO summer production shutdown/vacation because of demand.

    Sooooo if the VOLT has strong sales out of the blocks this may imply production will be ramped up to meet demand late this fall too?? Got to be optimistic.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:56 am)

    Noel Park: At this point, I am all for ANYTHING which kickstarts the electric car market and slows down our oil addiction. It’s a good investment IMHO, and a whole lot cheaper than imperial wars. 

    I think I’ve seen estimates that the actual cost of a gallon of gas is about $10 if you calculate in the taxpayer dollars it takes to ensure that the gas shows up at your local station. It’s funny how people just don’t get it. They’ll pay a $7 per gallon tax to support military actions needed to get a gallon of gas but don’t want to pay a $3 per gallon tax that moves people to alternative fuels. IOW, better to pay a $7 per gallon tax to stay addicted than to pay a $3 tax for a cure. Go figure.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:56 am)

    Biker Bob: Curb Side Charging – The way it should be everywhere !!!

    Dude, that cord stretched out like….
    It might stragle me if i’m walking home drunk. Or if i’m riding home drunk on my 10speed and get “Cloth Hanged” riding through.
    lol…

    /uh oh, I can hear the safety guy coming now…….”Not OSHA compliant”
    //can of worms opened.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:00 am)

    DonC: IOW, better to pay a $7 per gallon tax to stay addicted than to pay a $3 tax for a cure. Go figure.

    #65

    Damn right! +1


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    neutron

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:01 am)

    Another HAPPY NOTE!

    Detroit is abuzz with all kinds of good news the last couple of days…

    “Batteries to be plentiful for electric cars”

    “Novi — Electric vehicles are poised to be both popular and profitable, automakers believe, but it’ll take time for sales to match to the capacity of U.S. plants assembling batteries.”

    From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100617/AUTO01/6170374/1148/auto01/Batteries-to-be-plentiful-for-electric-cars#ixzz0r7ubZrWc


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:03 am)

    Camaro Rules: Hope this will work with my Camaro soon to be converted to an EV !  

    Sorry but your Camaro ain’t got nothing on my ‘Stang


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    Steve McQueen

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:04 am)

    Camaro Rules: Hope this will work with my Camaro soon to be converted to an EV !  

    Sorry but your Camaro ain’t got nothing on my ‘Stang
    05%20MUSTANG%20Animation1S.gif


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    ECO_Turbo

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:04 am)

    Biker Bob: What with all this HOME charging stuff. Some people don’t got home or are away from home.Curb Side Charging – The way it should be everywhere !!!  (Quote)

    This arrangement seems much safer to me:

    Battery_Car.jpg


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    Richard Stillhard

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:04 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:05 am)

    From the article: Though not essential because the car can recharge in 8 hours at standard 120V, the more rapid charging is a convenience.

    How is rapid charging the Volt more convenient?

    The most convenient way to use the Volt is charging overnight. Plugging in multiple times per day is less convenient.

    For a typical driver, the amount of gas saved by charging the Volt multiple times per day is relatively insignificant. There are many other ways to save more oil than this, like using less plastic, buying locally produced food, using an electric lawn mower, etc.

    People with long commutes would save a lot of gas by plugging in at work, but 120 volt charging will be fine for that.

    I really don’t understand all this fuss about rapid charging for the Volt. It seems like a solution in search of a problem.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:10 am)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    Yeah, and also for the 120VAC it was around 8-9A. They said they did not want to blow fuses.
    Whatever. I want to use the full 15A if possible or at least 13A but they dumbed it down to less than 10A for 120VAC charging. I think that’s kind of lame but that’s just me.
    So what about the good ol 120VAC 20A sockets? I have a couple in the trailer park round back. Sadly even if I use that, it will still dumbdown to less than 10A.
    Oh well.  

    Is there a way to fix that? Make it a user option. I have 20 amp 120V circuits in my garage. I could then charge at 16 amps. ( 80% load recommendation).


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:15 am)

    neutron: Is there a way to fix that? Make it a user option. I have 20 amp 120V circuits in my garage. I could then charge at 16 amps. ( 80% load recommendation).

    Most likely not. The charge station uses either regular BiPolar transistors or MOSFET’s or more commonly IGBT’s. And all of them will most likely be “Biased” to limit the current flow through them. If one had the schematics you’d be able to find the biasing circuitry and adjust it but that would void all warranties and liabilities.
    I don’t know why they don’t have anything to use on the 120VAC 20A circuit. My guess is there are few of them. They exist in many older homes but all the newer homes have 240VAC 30A.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:22 am)

    neutron: “Batteries to be plentiful for electric cars”

    #68

    Thanks for the cool link. +1


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:23 am)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    Most likely not. The charge station uses either regular BiPolar transistors or MOSFET’s or more commonly IGBT’s. And all of them will most likely be “Biased” to limit the current flow through them. If one had the schematics you’d be able to find the biasing circuitry and adjust it but that would void all warranties and liabilities.
    I don’t know why they don’t have anything to use on the 120VAC 20A circuit. My guess is there are few of them. They exist in many older homes but all the newer homes have 240VAC 30A.  

    Thanks for the info.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:49 am)

    ECO_Turbo: This arrangement seems much safer to me:

    Oooo yeah, cute blond in ponytails…………uh, oh wait, you mean the car? No you meant the charging cord……….what were you talkinbout again?


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    Cool Ohm

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:00 pm)

    Imagine if you could charge anywhere ?

    It really not that far away.

    461288.1-lg.gif


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:07 pm)

    flmark: So what am I supposed to do when I go visit someone out of town and need to recharge before I return home?

    You plug into any 110 circuit and you are ready to go, most likely many many hours later. Gm and Nissan are doing just what you did on your boat, legally. They are required to hard wire the 240 V charge receptacles.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:22 pm)

    DonC: I think I’ve seen estimates that the actual cost of a gallon of gas is about $10 if you calculate in the taxpayer dollars it takes to ensure that the gas shows up at your local station. It’s funny how people just don’t get it. They’ll pay a $7 per gallon tax to support military actions needed to get a gallon of gas but don’t want to pay a $3 per gallon tax that moves people to alternative fuels. IOW, better to pay a $7 per gallon tax to stay addicted than to pay a $3 tax for a cure. Go figure. 

    Because as you know a $7 global supply line protection surcharge is the the free market friendly way to do it. We can make up for it by exploiting the next unsophisticated self made dictator thug to find oil and send the troops to quiet the restless ungrateful natives when they disagree.

    Paying $3 for a solution to going around the globe to get energy from people who want to kill us is a namby pamby tax and spend free market interference dreamed up by commie leftists to expand their socialist sphere of influence. And you know that!!!!


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:24 pm)

    Tisk, tisk, tisk,,,,
    More of our tax dollars going to waste and for what? For the already well off to get free chargers for PERSONAL use only. But with your/our money. Customers will want to buy their own anyway. If it’s public funds being spent, it needs to go to public charge stations.
    Damn gubbment. USA, where the rich get richer and get a free $2200 charge station and the poor don’t get shit but the bill.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:29 pm)

    kdawg: Or voting alphabetically
    (Alvin Greene.. LOL)  

    ROTFLMAO :) I wanted to say something like voting for some guy who was recently represented by a public defender, and you get what you pay/vote for, but the rant got pretty long :)


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:29 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: Normally I would agree, but this seems extremely racist to me and totally uncalled for. It should be removed.  (Quote)

    I agree this is no place for that crap. Infact there is no place for that crap.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:30 pm)

    Dave G:
    How is rapid charging the Volt more convenient?

    It is more convenient if I get home from work and the battery is low and I want to go back out in an hour or two. With 240V charging I can get the battery back to 66% in 2 hours whereas only about 33% recharge with a 120V. Speed is convenient.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:30 pm)

    flmark: Somebody, please explain this to me. Why isn’t the technology built into the car itself?

    The actual battery charger IS built into the car itself. I think of the Home Charger as being a “smart extension cord”; it has enough smarts to check that it is fully plugged into the car so no electrical contacts are exposed when the power is turned on. Even ‘smarter’ versions of the charger would be able to negotiate for how much voltage/current to supply and when to start charging.

    From a practical standpoint it would be easy to make a cord to plug into a 240V dryer socket to charge your car (and avoid the expense of wiring a new circuit into your distribution panel), but that is not allowed by the National Electric Code (NEC). Too bad – because adding another 40A circuit may very well exceed the capacity of the panel you have now and require an expensive upgrade. It doesn’t matter that not everything in the panel draws full rated load at the same time – NEC rules assume they will! :o

    Bottom line: Only LEAF owners MUST install 240V chargers because they can’t fully charge overnight on 115V. I don’t mind that my Volt takes as long to recharge at night as I do. ;)


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:31 pm)

    AnonymousProxy: Tisk, tisk, tisk,,,,
    More of our tax dollars going to waste and for what? For the already well off to get free chargers for PERSONAL use only. But with your/our money. Customers will want to buy their own anyway. If it’s public funds being spent, it needs to go to public charge stations.
    Damn gubbment. USA, where the rich get richer and get a free $2200 charge station and the poor don’t get shit but the bill.

    Dang, you’re right. Well I’m going to see the Chevy dealer now, see ya later.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:32 pm)

    Cool Ohm: Imagine if you could charge anywhere ?It really not that far away.  

    What kind of premium will they charge over my residential rate? I would only use these if I was on a trip.


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    Gulf Coast Pelican

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:34 pm)


    There’s gooey crap everywhere! Now I can’t fly!!! You humans need to quit using this crap!

    -
    oiled-pelicans-fort-jackson-buras-horizontaljpg-c6cdca624ccd4019_large.jpg


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    Larry: Bottom line: Only LEAF owner MUST install 240V chargers because they can’t fully charge overnight on 115V. I don’t mind that my Volt takes as long to recharge as I do to sleep.  

    In California Volt owners will have to install 240V charge units because of time of day charging schemes. Many will have to get new additional meters to be in compliance with the utility companies (private investor owned not government run) electric car mandates.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

    DonC: I think I’ve seen estimates that the actual cost of a gallon of gas is about $10 if you calculate in the taxpayer dollars it takes to ensure that the gas shows up at your local station. It’s funny how people just don’t get it. They’ll pay a $7 per gallon tax to support military actions needed to get a gallon of gas but don’t want to pay a $3 per gallon tax that moves people to alternative fuels. IOW, better to pay a $7 per gallon tax to stay addicted than to pay a $3 tax for a cure. Go figure.  (Quote)

    Wow is there anything a higher tax can’t fix?

    Taxes should only be used to raise the money needed to run the government. NOT to make change happen. This is one reason we are in the mess we are in. Some people think a tax is the best way to fix anything.


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

    Starcast: Taxes should only be used to raise the money needed to run the government. NOT to make change happen. This is one reason we are in the mess we are in. Some people think a tax is the best way to fix anything.

    Also add….
    Where does the money go to and when we are off of OPEC juice, where will the money come from to continue whatever it is the tax money went to?

    I say no on tax. It will only cause what I just stated. Once they get the $$$ they will want to keep getting the $$$. It’s a double edged sword.
    xxxxx{}=========>

    Also, higher tax will mean higher cost for life essentials, which means anyone wanting a BEV or Volt will have even more difficulties trying to save for one.


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    BLIND GUY

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:07 pm)

    Lyle, Thanks for taking out the garbage.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:13 pm)

    Starcast: I agree this is no place for that crap. Infact there is no place for that crap.

    #83

    Amen. +1


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:14 pm)

    That’s funny. It’s the same model car but different color on post 70 as it is on post 59.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:16 pm)

    DonC: I think I’ve seen estimates that the actual cost of a gallon of gas is about $10 if you calculate in the taxpayer dollars it takes to ensure that the gas shows up at your local station. It’s funny how people just don’t get it. They’ll pay a $7 per gallon tax to support military actions needed to get a gallon of gas but don’t want to pay a $3 per gallon tax that moves people to alternative fuels. IOW, better to pay a $7 per gallon tax to stay addicted than to pay a $3 tax for a cure. Go figure.

    Well, you know what they say about addicts…

    But, seriously, this way people can think their tax bill is all about government waste, and blame the political system. And if they had a $3 a gallon tax, they might actually have to alter their behavior.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:19 pm)

    Starcast: Taxes should only be used to raise the money needed to run the government. NOT to make change happen.

    Good point. We’ll make the government a museum for old laws and moldy papers. Why change, everything’s fine right now?

    Heck elections cost too much. Let’s cancel ‘em and work with what we got. Way cheaper that way. The legislators who are arrested and work from prison would be the best bargain of all. They’ll gladly do the peoples work for three hots and a cot!!!!!!!

    Funny – in business do we follow the mantra, lets do the cheapest thing possible? Do we say I’m not making any capital investments because I only want to put in enough money to keep things the way they are? Will my competitors each my lunch with that outlook?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:20 pm)

    Entirely OT: I just received an interesting phone message. My local Chevy dealer called and wanted to let me know that the first Volt is headed to a dealership in Texas. Now, personally, that doesn’t make any sense to me whatsoever. It’s not in the first three markets, it’s nowhere near November and they haven’t even released the MSRP so why would they ship one of the first Volts to a dealership in TX.

    So my bet is that he is probably mistaken on this. With that said, and since speculation is fairly common on this site, would it make any sense to send some of the first Volts out to various dealerships to see if they can thereby determine the true interest in the Volt and adjust production numbers based on this more accurate level of interest? So perhaps send it out to some key dealerships throughout the country, allow potential buyers to test drive and have an official sign up mechanism with large (well larger than $99) deposits being required all in an effort to use these key dealerships to help determine overall interest to possibly increase production numbers?

    Pure speculation based on probably a mistaken understanding of a Volt delivery but it is an interesting thought.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:22 pm)

    LauraM: Well, you know what they say about addicts…

    But, seriously, this way people can think their tax bill is all about government waste, and blame the political system. And if they had a $3 a gallon tax, they might actually have to alter their behavior.

    #95

    True that. +1

    BTW, in case you aren’t compulsive enough to go back and check yesterday’s thread, here’s a quote from Wikipedia:

    “The spiritual lyric ‘God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water the fire next time’ inspired the title for ‘The Fire Next Time’, James Baldwin’s 1963 account of race relations in America.”


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:25 pm)

    Wow! === Off Topic News:

    FORD CRACKS JD POWER & ASSOCIATES TOP 5 IN INITIAL QUALITY QUOTIENT

    I’m fighting advertising popups on this site today – somehow breaking through my “iron-clad” popup protectors….But nonetheless, let’s laud Ford Motor Company today as the first American auto company to crack JD Power’s top 5 in Initial Quality! Ford finised at number 5. Porsche, Acura, Lexus and Mercedes finished in front of Ford – Chevrolet finished tops from GM, below average at number 14. Perhaps this may be an indicator as to why GM has been so pragmatic in introducing Volt…Inasmuch that it’s divisions still fare so poorly in cars returned to the dealer with initial problems and the way, at the dealer level, customers get satisfied when they address those issues.

    Click here for the list introduced today: http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2010-j-d-power-and-associates-iqs/med/#3090967

    Notice Nissan finished below Chevrolet at #15. The highest GM division being Cadillac at #13 in problems per 100 vehicles sold, the lowest, GMC at #25. Nissan needs to show me better if it intends to seperate me from my money for a LEAF and thus, to me, makes the 3 year lease even more appealing – one more reason other than battery improvements leasing opposed to buying my first Nissan product may make sense.

    It wasn’t shocking to me that Toyota finished poorly taking into consideration it’s recent problems. Some were shocking, however, such as Land Rover at last place ( kind of makes you wonder what it’s like to buy an $80,000 S.U.V. only to have so many quality gaffs to take care of ), BMW at #16 and Volkswagen near the bottom at 31!

    Again, congratulations to Ford – they have seemed to move slowly in regards to electrification, but it’s conservative approach seems to be right on, and it’s elevated quality controls and boosted materials levels outstanding. The Fusion Hybrid is one bright light I’d like to commend.

    RECHARGE!

    James


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:26 pm)

    Kup: With that said, and since speculation is fairly common on this site, would it make any sense to send some of the first Volts out to various dealerships to see if they can thereby determine the true interest in the Volt and adjust production numbers based on this more accurate level of interest?

    #97

    Thanks for the report. +1

    Many on this blog have suggested sending out some of the essentially production, but not available for sale, early run cars for just this purpose. Maybe they are actually going to do it. One can only hope.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:43 pm)

    Starcast: Wow is there anything a higher tax can’t fix?
    Taxes should only be used to raise the money needed to run the government. NOT to make change happen. This is one reason we are in the mess we are in. Some people think a tax is the best way to fix anything. 

    The point is you pay a hidden $7 tax for the status quo resulting in US service members deaths. When you could be paying an above board $3 tax to solve the problem and end deaths of military members who perish to secure our globe encircling energy security needs. That’s the essence of investment to create change. Scary isn’t it?

    Many people don’t trust government to do this at all, let alone well. Could it be the result of promising folks the moon, mars and the stars, and barely being able to deliver orderly but violent chaos from East Rutherford to East Palo Alto?

    Under this back drop, giving out chargers would be seen as a waste, not an incentive. After all it’s funded by government isn’t it? What else could it be but a waste?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:46 pm)

    Starcast: Taxes should only be used to raise the money needed to run the government. NOT to make change happen. This is one reason we are in the mess we are in. Some people think a tax is the best way to fix anything.  

    Perhaps it takes a subtle mind to recognize when taxes make sense and when they don’t. For example, we’re in the mess we’re in not because we raised taxes but because we didn’t raise taxes. Let’s face it, everyone loves the idea of a free lunch, and many of use proved more than ready to embrace the Kool Aid narrative of “Spend and Borrow”. Want a war in Iraq we can’t pay for? No problem, we’ll borrow it and it won’t matter. Want a prescription drug program we can’t afford? No problem, we’ll borrow it and it won’t matter. From 2000 – 2006 we spent like drunken sailors and mortgaged the ranch. Now, when for the first time in 75 years there is a good economic case to be made for deficit spending we’re supposed to worry about the deficit? Obviously we’re a nation of perfect contra indicators.

    As for not using tax policy as a means of change, that boat sailed long ago. I guess you’re in favor of eliminating the deductions for interest on mortgages. And of course the accelerated depreciation of assets. And the jobs credit. And the oil depletion allowance. And and and and and and and and. The tax code is a swiss cheese of provisions all designed to effect change.

    Moreover, what kind of fool would spend billions of dollars subsidizing a product that strengthens his enemies and cripples his economy? That’s what we’re effectively doing. Rather than do this, the better course would be to display a bit more patriotism, support those young men and women who are putting their lives on the line in hell holes like Afghanistan, and start contributing to the country by displaying a willingness to spend another quarter to get to the grocery store. It seems a small price to pay.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (1:56 pm)

    DonC: better course would be to display a bit more patriotism, support those young men and women who are putting their lives on the line in hell holes like Afghanistan, and start contributing to the country

    superbandera2-united_states_hw.gif
    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (2:11 pm)

    DonC: No problem, we’ll borrow it and it won’t matter. From 2000 – 2006 we spent like drunken sailors and mortgaged the ranch.

    There’s a reason for that. If you hate government and you’re responsible for running one, run up the debts and deficits until people unanimously say, enough, cut the size of government across the board.

    But what if they don’t say that? What if a lot of people still say government is not doing enough? And a lot of other people say no more taxes. And what if you hurriedly start TARP to save your economy as you’re heading out the door, even if your supporters hate it?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (2:25 pm)

    The greaaaaat Toyota – revealed for what it reaaly is – a buch of hype:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65G5E320100617


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (2:43 pm)

    DonC: For example, we’re in the mess we’re in not because we raised taxes but because we didn’t raise taxes. Let’s face it, everyone loves the idea of a free lunch, and many of use proved more than ready to embrace the Kool Aid narrative of “Spend and Borrow”. Want a war in Iraq we can’t pay for? No problem, we’ll borrow it and it won’t matter. Want a prescription drug program we can’t afford? No problem, we’ll borrow it and it won’t matter. From 2000 – 2006 we spent like drunken sailors and mortgaged the ranch. Now, when for the first time in 75 years there is a good economic case to be made for deficit spending we’re supposed to worry about the deficit? Obviously we’re a nation of perfect contra indicators.

    Agreed. However, I think it’s pretty clear that we’re not getting the best value for our taxpayer dollars. There is a lot of government waste out there. And I don’t think it’s unfair to expect our government to do something about it.

    And all this borrowing just makes thing worse in terms of the long term fiscal picture. It leads to ever increasing interests rates cost that the wealthy can use to get tax free income. Right now we’re paying an incredibly low rate on our debt. But that’s not going to last forever.

    DonC: As for not using tax policy as a means of change, that boat sailed long ago. I guess you’re in favor of eliminating the deductions for interest on mortgages. And of course the accelerated depreciation of assets. And the jobs credit. And the oil depletion allowance. And and and and and and and and. The tax code is a swiss cheese of provisions all designed to effect change.

    Agreed. However, I think we should examine those provisions one by one and decide if they’re all worth it. And if they still make sense. And if they’re a good use of government money. For example, I, for one would love to rid of the mortgage tax deduction. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a transfer of wealth to the wealthy. At the very least, it shouldn’t be available for second homes.

    DonC: Moreover, what kind of fool would spend billions of dollars subsidizing a product that strengthens his enemies and cripples his economy? That’s what we’re effectively doing. Rather than do this, the better course would be to display a bit more patriotism, support those young men and women who are putting their lives on the line in hell holes like Afghanistan, and start contributing to the country by displaying a willingness to spend another quarter to get to the grocery store. It seems a small price to pay.

    ICAM. Unfortunately, getting the government to change course is very very difficult. If the oil spill doesn’t get our wonderful policians to seriously talk about a gas tax, I don’t know what will.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (2:51 pm)

    jeffhre: There’s a reason for that. If you hate government and you’re responsible for running one, run up the debts and deficits until people unanimously say, enough, cut the size of government across the board.

    That’s a great way to destroy an economy. As much as I disliked our previous president, I don’t think he was actively malicious. And I certainly don’t think he wanted to do something just to create a need for higher taxes.

    Basically, he was faced with an electorate who wanted something for nothing. And he wanted to stay in office. So he did the logical thing–borrow.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (2:56 pm)

    jeffhre: There’s a reason for that. If you hate government and you’re responsible for running one, run up the debts and deficits until people unanimously say, enough, cut the size of government across the board.

    #104

    Yeah, and if you do it right you can keep it all floating until you leave office and con the public into blaming it on the next guy, LOL. +1


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (2:57 pm)

    jeffhre: Starcast: Taxes should only be used to raise the money needed to run the government. NOT to make change happen. Good point. We’ll make the government a museum for old laws and moldy papers. Why change, everything’s fine right now?
    Heck elections cost too much. Let’s cancel ‘em and work with what we got. Way cheaper that way. The legislators who are arrested and work from prison would be the best bargain of all. They’ll gladly do the peoples work for three hots and a cot!!!!!!!
    Funny – in business do we follow the mantra, lets do the cheapest thing possible? Do we say I’m not making any capital investments because I only want to put in enough money to keep things the way they are? Will my competitors each my lunch with that outlook?

    Ya the only way change will happen is with a tax. Noone is going to do what we want with out a new tax. But that’s no problem our tax laws are so short a few more no big deal. right?

    A good idea will not need to be forced onto the people. In business do we just raise rates even when the product is over priced? In business do we force people to buy what they don’t want? In business do we say our product is over priced but we don’t need to lower the price we need others to be forced to raise their prices?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:00 pm)

    LauraM: And I certainly don’t think he wanted to do something just to create a need for higher taxes.

    Not a need for higher taxes, it’s a call for less government. It’s not malicious, it’s making the hard choices.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:04 pm)

    Starcast: In business do we just raise rates even when the product is over priced? In business do we force people to buy what they don’t want? In business do we say our product is over priced but we don’t need to lower the price we need others to be forced to raise their prices? 

    No.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:09 pm)

    DonC: Perhaps it takes a subtle mind to recognize when taxes make sense and when they don’t. For example, we’re in the mess we’re in not because we raised taxes but because we didn’t raise taxes.

    We are in the mess we are in because of SPENDING!!!!! Plain and simple.

    Spend less do less. Bush was bad Obama is bad to a whole new level.

    Spend less do less for me!!!!!! Lets all say it togeather spend less do less for me. Bring our troops home from everywere.

    This is why we need more people like Ron Paul in Washington. He gets it! Rand Paul will be a great also.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:12 pm)

    Starcast: Ya the only way change will happen is with a tax.

    Ya the only way change will happen is with a capital expense. Nothing is for free.

    Will we have to change our business practices over time, even though some folks don’t like it, yes. Will we evolve the way we do business despite objections, yes. Will we stop learning adapting and changing because some people don’t like it. Not if we don’t want to be crushed in a changing business environment.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:17 pm)

    Starcast: We are in the mess we are in because of SPENDING!!!!! Plain and simple.

    Spend less do less. Bush as bad Obama is bad to a whole new level.

    Spend less do less for me!!!!!! Lets all say it togeather spend less do less for me. Bring our troops home from everywere.

    This is why we need more people like Ron Paul in Washington. He gets it! Rand Paul will be a great also.

    I read a book about Ron Paul’s philosophy. He doesn’t even like the gold standard. Do you really think we’d be better off with competing forms of currency?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:19 pm)

    jeffhre: Not a need for higher taxes, it’s a call for less government. It’s not malicious, it’s making the hard choices.

    The more you borrow, the more you have to pay back. That means you will have to pay higher taxes. Either directly or through inflation. Unless you think he wanted an outright default? As in the US government defaults on its debt?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:21 pm)

    BobS: It is more convenient if I get home from work and the battery is low and I want to go back out in an hour or two.

    That’s exactly what the range extender is for. So this has nothing to do with convenience.

    Your point is that 240 volt charging would save some gasoline, but how much? How many gallons per year would you actually save with 240v vs 120v charging?

    For a typical driver, it ends up being only a few gallons a year.

    A lot of theories that feel right end up falling apart when you run the numbers.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:21 pm)

    Starcast: Bring our troops home from everywere.

    #112

    Well I sure have to put in with you there. As to the rest, not so much.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:23 pm)

    Starcast: We are in the mess we are in because of SPENDING!!!!! Plain and simple.
    Spend less do less. Bush as bad Obama is bad to a whole new level.
    Spend less do less for me!!!!!! Lets all say it togeather spend less do less for me. Bring our troops home from everywere.
    This is why we need more people like Ron Paul in Washington. He gets it! Rand Paul will be a great also

    I’d like to start a new division in my company. My only motto is spend less do less. When will I become self supporting and spin off into a sustainable business entity?

    Rand Paul had a deep political issue with the Ophthalmologist board. You think he said I’d like to fight them to reach my career and life dreams, but I can’t because I must spend less and do less. Did he say, oh but I can’t spend the time and money to do what is clearly right? Sometimes a simple slogan can be taken to absurdity in an attempt to apply it to every thing.

    Are we are so splintered as voters that we can’t apply the same common sense outlook to government that we apply to our own lives?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:28 pm)

    LauraM: The more you borrow, the more you have to pay back. That means you will have to pay higher taxes. Either directly or through inflation. Unless you think he wanted an outright default? As in the US government defaults on its debt?  

    No, he wanted a smaller government.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:33 pm)

    Dave G: hat’s exactly what the range extender is for. So this has nothing to do with convenience.

    You started off saying it saves more oil to stop using plastic bags, and you ended with that’s what the range extender is for. Can you reconcile the two concepts for us, I think you lost me.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:45 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: So how much money are these things if I want to install one in my garage and don’t qualify for it for free?  

    Probably about $139 on Ebay, with a 220v drier plug.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:51 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: Normally I would agree, but this seems extremely racist to me and totally uncalled for. It should be removed.  

    At first blush it does look racist, but how many people complained about Bush as a monkey?

    monkey_with_a_gun.jpg


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (3:56 pm)

    Herm: Probably about $139 on Ebay, with a 220v drier plug.

    If you find it for that buy it. Normally you wouldn’t even be able to get the parts for that little on Ebay, and it would take several hours to build it by hand.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:06 pm)

    Why would our Dept of Energy spend tax payers monies to buy and install charging systems for a Japanese automobile that are in direct competion with American products ? Incentives should be limited to American built autos and trucks. When we had our cash for Clunkers programs we allowed Americans to turn in vehicles and then buy Japanese Europe ran and American. Yet when Japan had their Cash to Clunkers programs American autos were not allowed to be part of the program. Why would we help and assist foreign car manufacturers when our own auto companies are in trouble? And just to clear up, Honda Nissan and Toyota’s Subaru’s and the Koreans no matter how many Americans are employed there remain foreign auto manufacturers and should not participate in any rebate or incentive programs funded by the Dept of Energy or other government agencies.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:22 pm)

    jeffhre: No, he wanted a smaller government.

    But borrowing tons of money doesn’t get you a smaller government! It gets you a lot of debt, which will have to be paid back in one form or other.

    And cutting entitlement programs once you establish them (like the unfunded Medicare Part D) is a lot harder than never creating them in the first place.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:30 pm)

    storm: Anybody able to suggest a Michigan Chevy dealer that is likely to get an early Volt? Looks like buying out of state is my only chance of getting one in my lifetime.  (Quote)

    My Chevy dealer is Buff Whelan Chevrolet in Sterling Heights, MI. They took $500 as a deposit and a promise that the car would be at MSRP. My salesman is John Trotto and his email address is jtrotto@buffwhelan.com I would say that John seemed knowledgable about the Volt.
    I also have a deposit with an Ohio dealership that was done long before I knew that Michigan would get cars before other parts of the country. I would not be surprised if the rest of the country gets cars just a few months after Mich, Calif, and DC, but have no way of knowing what will really happen.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    Herm: At first blush it does look racist, but how many people complained about Bush as a monkey?  (Quote)

    Now THAT is offensive.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:41 pm)

    Starcast: We are in the mess we are in because of SPENDING!!!!! Plain and simple.

    No, we’re in the mess we’re in because there are a whole lot of freeloaders who don’t want to pay for what they get. Excluding one time stimulus spending, government services are 26% of GDP. Taxes are 19% of GDP. The difference between 26% and 19% is the 7% “Freeloader Gap”, meaning the amount which we’ve been undertaxed for a decade. How we got there is pretty clear. Need to be elected? No problem. Just pitch to fools the absurdity that you can cut taxes, increase spending, and borrow your way to prosperity.

    Given that 70% of the federal budget consists of Medicare, Social Security, and Defense, the only way to balance the federal budget without raising taxes is to cut those three programs by about 30%. Since I’ve never heard any politician, including every one who rants about the deficit, propose cutting ANY of these programs, I’m thinking it’s not going to happen.

    But really the question comes back to whether you want to spend $7/gallon to keep feeding your addition to foreign oil or whether you’re ready to pay $3/gallon so that the free markets develop domestically sourced alternatives to end your addiction. Logic would suggest that the pain of staying where you are greatly outweighs the pain of moving forward but sometimes it takes a brilliant mind to reach the obvious answer.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:43 pm)

    LauraM: But borrowing tons of money doesn’t get you a smaller government! It gets you a lot of debt, which will have to be paid back in one form or other.

    Not, if you have a smaller government, spend less do less, right. Use the reduced spending to route revenues into paying down the debt. If that was really a priority among Americans, Clinton and Obama would never have been elected after Reagan and W allowed huge deficits to build up.

    Looking historically though I’d have to agree with you, it seems to take you right back where you started, except with higher debts and deficits. Lets face it, there is not a lot of discretionary spending. Most people no longer look at things like Social Security, Pentagon budget increases and Medicare as optional spending.

    And how much waste is there really, as opposed to mountains of philosophical and interest group differences between constituents. Even if we called all of it waste, how much of a percentage difference would it make?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:47 pm)

    Herm:
    At first blush it does look racist, but how many people complained about Bush as a monkey?  

    Showing a Black President as a monkey is racist.
    Showing a White President (Bush) as a monkey is a mis-characterization and an insult to the
    intelligence of a monkey. It would have been more appropriate to show Bush as a Jackass.

    And I’m a Republican saying that.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:54 pm)

    What’s wrong with that picture of Bush. That’s exactly how I saw him for 8 years based on his performance for the country. We’re as addicted to oil as ever with NO policy for energy other than drill for more. Too many of my fellow military brethren paid the price for that policy.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:55 pm)

    The Volt is going to be a spectuacular addition in my garage. Whatever it cost, I don’t mind paying for the 240V conversion. My garage has a 240 Line.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:55 pm)

    jeffhre: Not, if you have a smaller government, spend less do less, right. Use the reduced spending to route revenues into paying down the debt. If that was really a priority among Americans, Clinton and Obama would never have been elected after Reagan and W allowed huge deficits to build up.

    I think that paying down the debt is actually is more of a priority than people think. The problem is that we keep electing officials who say they’ll cut deficits while campaigning. And then they do the exact opposite once they’re in office. It’s infuriating.

    jeffhre: Looking historically though I’d have to agree with you, it seems to take you right back where you started, except with higher debts and deficits. Lets face it, there is not a lot of discretionary spending. Most people no longer look at things like Social Security, Pentagon budget increases and Medicare as optional spending.

    No. They don’t. Well, quite a few people want to cut the Pentagon budget. Although in practice–it’s a lot harder than it looks. But no one is willing to touch social security and medicare. (Although I think the health care plan hopefully reduced some of the costs.) And the really scary thing? Is that at some point we’re going to have to cut all three. People are living a lot longer than they used to. That means they have to work longer. You can’t go to school 30 years, work 30, and then collect social security (and possibly a government funded pension) for 40. It’s unsustainable. But that’s really really politically unpopular.

    jeffhre: And how much waste is there really, as opposed to mountains of philosophical and interest group differences between constituents. Even if we called all of it waste, how much of a percentage difference would it make?

    I don’t know. No one does. Although I suspect it’s more than most people think. (I have a friend who did audits of some government budgets, and she said the sheer amount of waste and fraud was mind boggling.)

    But even if it’s not, the prevalence of waste, makes it a lot harder to ask people to pay more in taxes.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (4:57 pm)

    jbfalaska: What’s wrong with that picture of Bush.That’s exactly how I saw him for 8 years based on his performance for the country.We’re as addicted to oil as ever with NO policy for energy other than drill for more.Too many of my fellow military brethren paid the price for that policy.  

    Please see my comment at #130.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (5:07 pm)

    LauraM: Basically, he was faced with an electorate who wanted something for nothing. And he wanted to stay in office. So he did the logical thing–borrow.  

    Amen +1. This is it in a nutshell.

    A more nuanced history would start with Reagan. Before Reagan the assumption was that if you ran up huge deficits you’d lose a lot of political points and the private markets would punish your fiscal imprudence. Reagan proved this to be wrong. He exploded the deficit and … became popular. And the more he spent and borrowed the more popular he became. And the interest rate on government securities did not rise! The lesson here is that political careers aren’t lost by under estimating the intelligence of the American voter — it’s hard to do.

    Liberal and conservative sources agree that Dick Cheney was right — deficits don’t matter and “spend more and borrow more” is a winning political message. If you have any doubt, look at all the people who would rather pay a hidden tax of $7/gallon to remain addicted to foreign oil rather than to pay $3/gallon gas tax to allow the free market to develop alternatives. It may be completely dumb, but hey, if you can’t see the tax you can just pretend it doesn’t exist. Same with the deficit. You can just pretend that the deficit is all due to “wasteful” spending — where “wasteful” spending is defined as spending that doesn’t benefit you. Out of sight is out of mind.

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2009/03/27/deficits
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/245esggv.asp


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (5:08 pm)

    Noel Park: BTW, in case you aren’t compulsive enough to go back and check yesterday’s thread, here’s a quote from Wikipedia:

    “The spiritual lyric ‘God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water the fire next time’ inspired the title for ‘The Fire Next Time’, James Baldwin’s 1963 account of race relations in America.”

    I just checked yesterday’s thread. That is interesting. In a lot of ways, America’s history is the history of race relations…

    I do think we’ve come a long way since the 60s. (Not saying things are perfect. Clearly, they’re not. But it’s a lot better than the 60s. ) So if God were going to destroy us, he would have already done so.

    Not to get too religious on a public board, but I believe that, at this point, God is leaving it up to us if we want to destroy ourselves or save ourselves.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (5:20 pm)

    jeffhre: You started off saying it saves more oil to stop using plastic bags, and you ended with that’s what the range extender is for. Can you reconcile the two concepts for us, I think you lost me.

    A typical driver won’t use the range extender that often. So if you only charge at night, you’ll use very little gas.

    Some people will try to save even more gas by plugging in every chance they get. In this case, the Volt’s software will probably run the ICE anyway to keep the gas engine healthy and keep the gas in the tank from going stale. So in the end, they won’t save that much gas over simple night time charging. Probably only a few gallons per year. You can save an equivalent amount of oil in many other ways, most of which are more convenient than plugging in all the time. That was my point.

    An exception to all this is people with long commutes. They can save a significant amount of gas by plugging in at work. But since 120v charging works fine for this, I see very little benefit to 240v charging here.

    There may be some other exceptions as well, but for 95% of the public, I see very little benefit for 240v charging – certainly not enough to justify millions of dollars in taxpayer money.

    For people considering the purchase of a 240v charger, I seriously suggest you try to calculate the amount of gasoline you would actually save per year, taking into consideration the fact that the Volt’s ICE has to run periodically just to keep things running smoothly. When you run the numbers, 240v charging usually makes no sense.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (5:32 pm)

    LauraM: And the really scary thing? Is that at some point we’re going to have to cut all three. People are living a lot longer than they used to.

    Yet, that has been the general assumption for 35 years. What has happened in the mean time. Things are better or worse? Trick question, at the tail end of the worst recession in 70 years we know the answer.

    Priority’s usually come from gut feelings rather than informed reasoning. Deficit reduction may even sound good next year.

    But given a few good bull market years, will politicians be able to dust off the same old promise the moon at no cost to you guaranteed rhetoric? Maybe the younger ones will even actually believe they can pull it off.

    As I usually say, time will tell. Or if I’m feeling cynical, good luck in your future endeavors!!!


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (5:35 pm)

    LauraM: Not to get too religious on a public board, but I believe that, at this point, God is leaving it up to us if we want to destroy ourselves or save ourselves.

    We will destroy ourselves. The only question is when, and how much.

    “The Son of Man will come again just as lightning flashes from east to west. Vultures will gather wherever there is a dead body. Immediately after the misery of those days, the sun will turn dark, the moon will not give light, the stars will fall from the sky …”


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (5:37 pm)

    73 Dave G: The most convenient way to use the Volt is charging overnight. Plugging in multiple times per day is less convenient.

    Agreed on the 2nd part.
    But on the first part, it may be that the most convenient place to charge is at work.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (5:40 pm)

    Dave G: For people considering the purchase of a 240v charger, I seriously suggest you try to calculate the amount of gasoline you would actually save per year, taking into consideration the fact that the Volt’s ICE has to run periodically just to keep things running smoothly. When you run the numbers, 240v charging usually makes no sense. 

    Unless you live in a state with time of day use charges and are faced with a small charging opportunity window to get the best rates, and or your EV has no range extender.

    Other than that you could very well be right. Unless typical drivers turn out to be not so typically predictable. Lots of folks will just try to save as much liquid fuel as possible, even if the efforts don’t ultimately appear all that rational. Prius drivers get a kick out of driving along silently and all electrically, even though they must know that their go power comes from gasoline.

    As far as convenience, it’s a lot easier to plug in your serial hybrid than it is to win a campaign to eliminate the use of plastic bags.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (5:52 pm)

    Starcast: Spend less do less for me!

    The first thing taken away from you (and everyone else) can be all public roads and decades and trillions of dollars of subsidized oil supply and below market gasoline prices.

    I’ll be fine after that with my off road local wind powered EV. I might even let you sit on the back for a ride if you pay me enough. Free market and all…

    :)

    I wonder if that Volt going to Texas is for Joe Barton to help cure his recent hoof in mouth problem. Last, we can’t see a midsize 30 mpg highway pickup truck fast enough in the US.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:05 pm)

    LauraM: Not to get too religious on a public board, but I believe that, at this point, God is leaving it up to us if we want to destroy ourselves or save ourselves.

    #136

    Actually, I’m not religious at all. I just think that, if we keep destroying the natural world, there will be a reckoning sooner or later. Some of these old writings and song lyrics just resonate with me and seem to illustrate the point.

    BTW, the song is in the public domain, and originated WAY before the 60s and James Baldwin. I see it as a warning about all the sins of the human species, not just race relations. Mr. Baldwin just borrowed it to help make his point.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:09 pm)

    Dave G: We will destroy ourselves. The only question is when, and how much.

    #139

    Alas, there are days when I feel that way. Every time I see those oiled birds on CNN, I fear that the reckoning is coming.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:17 pm)

    RB: … it may be that the most convenient place to charge is at work.

    For charging at work, 120v will do just fine.

    In fact, I would be interested in a second 120v charger cable, one for home, and one for when I’m away. I wonder if other manufacturers will start making this cable. Aren’t both connectors standard?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:19 pm)

    Herm: At first blush it does look racist, but how many people complained about Bush as a monkey?

    I hate it when people play the lame ass racist card. The comments of it being ok for another is hypocritical. Is this really America where you have to press “1″ for English when you call a Government office or Hospital? Quit playing the racist garbage card.
    Here’s reverse racist, if a black person calls another the “N@@@@R” word its fine, when ANY other calls them that is derogatory and racist. Ditto for other ethnic backgrounds.

    I say re-post that picture. It had nothing to do with “Race”!
    Shame on all of you who wanted it censored. This is America and you just censored the first amendment for someone! Hope your happy having to chose the American vernacular when you call the Government or any other business.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:20 pm)

    Kup said:

    My local Chevy dealer called and wanted to let me know that the first Volt is headed to a dealership in Texas.

    Please let us know if you see, or end up in, a moving Volt with less than 4 people in it.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:29 pm)

    jeffhre: As far as convenience, it’s a lot easier to plug in your serial hybrid than it is to win a campaign to eliminate the use of plastic bags.

    You don’t have to win a campaign. Just cut down on using plastic bags, and other things made from oil.

    We don’t have to go nuts, just try to cut down where it’s practical. It’s not an all-or-nothing deal.

    Doing that would probably save more oil than a 240v charger for the Volt.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:37 pm)

    jbfalaska: What’s wrong with that picture of Bush. That’s exactly how I saw him for 8 years based on his performance for the country. We’re as addicted to oil as ever with NO policy for energy other than drill for more. Too many of my fellow military brethren paid the price for that policy. 

    What’s wrong is that it is directed at the office of the President of the United States. The only way it works is if the viewer has a basic fear and distrust of guns. I would presume that as a veteran, a gun in your hands would not only be clean, oiled and service-able, but safely used to discourage opportunistic predators.

    I didn’t agree with a lot of what the president did, but I find the picture offensive. Though I felt the energy policy was to bury ones head in the sand, that picture doesn’t work for me at all.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    Were not only subsidizing 100% IMPORTED FOREIGN CARS NOW WERE NUYING CHARGERS FOR THEM.thE MADNESS CONTINUES.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (6:52 pm)

    Dave G: You don’t have to win a campaign. Just cut down on using plastic bags, and other things made from oil.

    You had to say it, so here it is, all conjecture for all it’s worth.

    I don’t want to use plastic bags, and I forget to bring my own reusable. The store I like, which is convenient and nearby has no alternative. Instead of being happy with saving a few gallons of fuel by conveniently plugging in, I;

    1) go home and get my reusable bag. 2) Take part of my valuable time to complain to the manager which escalates from there. 3) Start patronizing a store that is farther away or that I never liked as much as this one.

    Speaking of what is typical when the car doesn’t exist yet, leads to discussions of what’s typical based on no existing facts. To assign the greater virtue to a typical driver who is yet to be conjured into existence, based on weather that non existent typical driver chooses to forgo using plastic bags or tries to use opportunistic charging to save a gallon here or there leads to meaningless hypothetical conclusions.

    It’s all fairly hypothetical at this point isn’t it?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (7:10 pm)

    Tag! Tag! Where are you, Tag?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (7:11 pm)

    OT: DaveG is going to have to retire his quality graph. The JD Powers Initial Quality Survey is out and Toyota has dropped a lot — well below industry average — due to the models subject to the recalls. GM dropped a it as well due to the number of new models it introduced. Ford did very well and is now ahead of Honda. It’s the most reliable of what I’d call the mainstream brands (or has less issues). On a good note for EV luxury lovers, Porsche was at the top of the list and half of those cars were probably made by the company which is going to assemble the Fisker Karma assuming it gets made. Still no answer as to why anyone buys a Range Rover.

    http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand/sortcolumn-1/ascending/page-


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (7:38 pm)

    I hope lots of people get 240v chargers or bigger, they’re the ones who will end up paying the equivalent of road use taxes. 8-)


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (7:56 pm)

    toluso: The greaaaaat Toyota – revealed for what it reaaly is – a buch of hype:http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65G5E320100617  (Quote)

    Gee, Toyota is hype… hmmm BP too…????


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:04 pm)

    Dave G:
    For charging at work, 120v will do just fine.In fact, I would be interested in a second 120v charger cable, one for home, and one for when I’m away.I wonder if other manufacturers will start making this cable.Aren’t both connectors standard?  

    It is my understanding that the Volt comes with 2 120 volt cables, one to be stored in a compartment in “the trunk” to be used when away from home.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:12 pm)

    Dave G: I really don’t understand all this fuss about rapid charging for the Volt. It seems like a solution in search of a problem.

    For people that drive more than 20 miles to work and then have to move to a different location in less than 8 hours it makes GREAT sense to charge at 240 volts so that you can have a full charge in 3 hours. This may not be the majority of people, but some would benefit. On the other hand, if you plug in to 120 volts I doubt that you would be considered a threat to “the infrastructure”, whereas a 240 volt charger might be considered a high enough load to warrant imposing limits on the part of the utility company.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:14 pm)

    jeffhre: It’s all fairly hypothetical at this point isn’t it?

    People aren’t going to change their driving pattern when they buy a Volt. A typical driver today will be roughly the same as a typical driver in the future.

    The average American drives 12,000 miles each year. If you break that down into a any reasonably normal driving pattern, it works out to less than 40 miles for the vast majority of days. Other studies verify this. That’s why they chose 40 miles AER for the Volt. It wasn’t a coincidence.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:17 pm)

    DonC: A more nuanced history would start with Reagan. Before Reagan the assumption was that if you ran up huge deficits you’d lose a lot of political points and the private markets would punish your fiscal imprudence. Reagan proved this to be wrong. He exploded the deficit and … became popular. And the more he spent and borrowed the more popular he became. And the interest rate on government securities did not rise! The lesson here is that political careers aren’t lost by under estimating the intelligence of the American voter — it’s hard to do.

    Absolutely, Reagan started it. But I actually think he was the first one who could get away with it. He took over after the 70s and stagflation. People were ready to try something–anything–new. If borrowing could get them out of it, people were ready to listen. And, in fairness, Keynsian policy does dictate some borrowing to get out of the recession. And Reagan’s deficits were nowhere near as bad as George Bush’s.

    By the way, speaking of the American voter, I recently saw a play about Andrew Jackson. The basic question was–do we really want the American people making decisions? Do they really know what they’re doing? Andrew Jackson became president through the will of the American people…with really bad consequences for the American Indians. Pure democracy doesn’t always go hand in hand with the government doing the right thing…

    DonC: Liberal and conservative sources agree that Dick Cheney was right — deficits don’t matter and “spend more and borrow more” is a winning political message. If you have any doubt, look at all the people who would rather pay a hidden tax of $7/gallon to remain addicted to foreign oil rather than to pay $3/gallon gas tax to allow the free market to develop alternatives.

    Most people have no idea about the hidden $7 a gallon tax. I would imagine if they did, they’d be outraged. Of course, most people have no idea about a lot of things…

    DonC: You can just pretend that the deficit is all due to “wasteful” spending — where “wasteful” spending is defined as spending that doesn’t benefit you. Out of sight is out of mind.

    Well, my definition of wasteful spending is when they forget to turn off the cell phones for temporary employees after they leave. Or people retire early on “disability” and proceed to move to another state and get a second job, meanwhile collecting disability from the first state. Or the 90% + of Long Island Railroad workers who retire on so-called disability (including the white collar workers) and get among other things access to a free taxpayer funded golf course….

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/business/economy/21pension.html


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:18 pm)

    JohnK: It is my understanding that the Volt comes with 2 120 volt cables, one to be stored in a compartment in “the trunk” to be used when away from home.

    That would be great!

    Lyle, can you confirm this?


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:19 pm)

    Dave G: We will destroy ourselves. The only question is when, and how much.

    “The Son of Man will come again just as lightning flashes from east to west. Vultures will gather wherever there is a dead body. Immediately after the misery of those days, the sun will turn dark, the moon will not give light, the stars will fall from the sky …”

    Well, personally, I’m hoping that won’t happen for at least another thousand years…


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:22 pm)

    jeffhre: As far as convenience, it’s a lot easier to plug in your serial hybrid than it is to win a campaign to eliminate the use of plastic bags.

    Dave G: You don’t have to win a campaign. Just cut down on using plastic bags, and other things made from oil.

    We don’t have to go nuts, just try to cut down where it’s practical. It’s not an all-or-nothing deal.

    Doing that would probably save more oil than a 240v charger for the Volt.

    Is there any reason we can’t do both? ? Cut down on plastic bags and have a serial hybrid? There’s no reason not to reduce our oil use wherever we can whenever we can.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:27 pm)

    Noel Park: Actually, I’m not religious at all. I just think that, if we keep destroying the natural world, there will be a reckoning sooner or later. Some of these old writings and song lyrics just resonate with me and seem to illustrate the point.

    Absolutely. But the important thing to remember is that the old writing and song lyrics were there for a reason. Things have looked pretty gloomy many many times before. And we’ve pulled out of it. Hopefully we can this time too.

    Noel Park: BTW, the song is in the public domain, and originated WAY before the 60s and James Baldwin. I see it as a warning about all the sins of the human species, not just race relations. Mr. Baldwin just borrowed it to help make his point.

    For whatever it’s worth, no one would have considered oily pelicans a sin 60 years ago. So we are getting better. We are moving in the right direction. Let’s just hope we’re moving fast enough.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:29 pm)

    LauraM: And Reagan’s deficits were nowhere near as bad as George Bush’s.

    I agree with everything else you said except this: The Regan era deficits actually look worse than the second Bush deficits.
    national-debt-gdp1.gif


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:32 pm)

    EVO: The first thing taken away from you (and everyone else) can be all public roads and decades and trillions of dollars of subsidized oil supply and below market gasoline prices.

    I’ll be fine after that with my off road local wind powered EV. I might even let you sit on the back for a ride if you pay me enough. Free market and all…

    Do you also grow all your own food? Because if not, you’re just as dependent on oil and the public road system as the rest of us.


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    Tagamet

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (8:57 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Tag!Tag!Where are you, Tag?  

    May I be of help, Mr. President?

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    EVNow

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:14 pm)

    JamesNotice Nissan finished below Chevrolet at #15.

    Hmmm … they both had 111 defects. If you look a little bit more carefullu, you will see that with a particular number (like 111), brands are listed alphebetically. So you have Audi, Cadillac, Chevy & Nissan – all at 111.

    BTW, I’m surprised to see Hyundai so high up. We have had lot more problems with Hundai than Nissan.


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    JEC

     

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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:20 pm)

    Wow. Lots of political banter today. I think I will stay out of the pool today…a little chilly *******

    BTW: If life on earth is going to end soon, then all our silly worries about using oil and such really don’t matter. Our spec of a planet is about as significant as a grain of sand in the Sierra desert. The cosmos will not even notice we are gone. (Boy, I really miss Carl Sagan)

    So sit back, relax, throw back a few, and wait for the end of the world….bye for now.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (9:52 pm)

    jeffhre: Yet, that has been the general assumption for 35 years. What has happened in the mean time. Things are better or worse? Trick question, at the tail end of the worst recession in 70 years we know the answer.

    I’d say worse. Real wages have been declining since 2003. There is a reason Bush ran such large deficits in order to try to juice the economy.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/12/business/12wages.html?pagewanted=print&position=

    http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2008/11/real_wages_cont.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/business/02leonhardt.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/16/weekinreview/the-nation-us-wages-not-getting-ahead-better-get-used-to-it.html?pagewanted=1

    And with the exception of the 90s, real wages been stagnant, or declining on a pretty consistent basis since the 70s.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/16/weekinreview/the-nation-us-wages-not-getting-ahead-better-get-used-to-it.html?pagewanted=1

    Of course that could be blamed on the recession—but we still have to collectively pay off our national debt (public and private). And energy prices will continue to rise indefinitely, which will, in turn, raise the price of everything else. Unless, of course, we do something about it. Like invest in trains and alternative energy research. Which we don’t seem to have the collective will to do…

    And then there’s all those infrastructure upkeep bills that we’ve been putting off and is now reaching the crisis level…


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:19 pm)

    Tagamet: May I be of help, Mr. President?

    Welcome back!


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:22 pm)

    Dave G: I agree with everything else you said except this: The Regan era deficits actually look worse than the second Bush deficits.
    national-debt-gdp1.gif

    Sorry. I wasn’t clear. What I meant was that the total national debt was a lot lower when Reagan took over. So his deficits (although huge) were a lot more manageable.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:34 pm)

    DonC: Tagamet: May I be of help, Mr. President?

    Welcome back!

    Thanks. :-)

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:34 pm)

    LauraM: That’s a great way to destroy an economy. As much as I disliked our previous president, I don’t think he was actively malicious. And I certainly don’t think he wanted to do something just to create a need for higher taxes. Basically, he was faced with an electorate who wanted something for nothing. And he wanted to stay in office. So he did the logical thing–borrow.  (Quote)

    You are being far too generous.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:37 pm)

    LauraM: Is there any reason we can’t do both? ? Cut down on plastic bags and have a serial hybrid? There’s no reason not to reduce our oil use wherever we can whenever we can. 

    Absolutely. the question I was approaching, on a purely hypothetical basis was, is it more virtuous to opportunity charge or to reduce the use of consumer goods like plastic bags made from petroleum. Your answer makes sense to me. For others the idea of opportunity charging is a colossal waste of resources. Perhaps it will be and these initial studies will confirm it. Time will tell.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:45 pm)

    Dave G: People aren’t going to change their driving pattern when they buy a Volt. A typical driver today will be roughly the same as a typical driver in the future.

    I’ll be changing mine. I’ve wanted a car that could get me off gas since I was 16 and first filled a tank. I suspect I’ll be driving more.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:50 pm)

    LauraM:
    you’re just as dependent on oil and the public road system as the rest of us.  

    Huh? My ride is an EV, which doesn’t use oil, and it’s a (highway capable, street legal) off road dirt bike, which doesn’t require public roads, or any roads at all for that matter, and can easily do 35 foot jumps at high speeds.

    So, by definition, I can’t be as dependent on oil and the public road system as the rest of you if the rest of you use street gassers or vehicles that can’t do 35 foot jumps.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (10:58 pm)

    americans are used to cheap gas…they want everything ..all wants & no responsibility …Look around US has the lowes taxes on gas so consupmtion is high .. anyone who dares to put additinal tax on gas will be booted out of office ..americans are there own worst enemy ..spoiled nation hooked on cheap gas & getting fat on cheap sugars Coke ..lol americans have no concious for the environment ..just Drill baby Drill so they got the oil spill & now whine about the beaches ..they want it all with no consequences ..Reality escapes them ..so they march into the pews to hear the sermons from equally corrupt pastors who give them what the idiots want to hear ..just pass the $$ bags around pl …what a country


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:42 pm)

    Tagamet: May I be of help, Mr. President?

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

    Welcome back! You’ve been missed.


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    Jun 17th, 2010 (11:50 pm)

    koz: You are being far too generous.

    I try to believe the best about people. All people. Even politicians. Besides I think actual malice is rare. Self interest is much more common…


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (12:00 am)

    EVO: Huh? My ride is an EV, which doesn’t use oil, and it’s a (highway capable, street legal) off road dirt bike, which doesn’t require public roads, or any roads at all for that matter, and can easily do 35 foot jumps at high speeds.

    So, by definition, I can’t be as dependent on oil and the public road system as the rest of you if the rest of you use street gassers or vehicles that can’t do 35 foot jumps.

    And I take the subway. I don’t need gas to get to the supermarket. In fact, I can even walk. Yes. I know. That means I’m using gasoline to get there. But aside from that, I am completely reliant on the delivery trucks that bring food to the supermarket.

    Theoretically, unlike me, you could use your motorcycle to get to the actual farms. But since the vast majority of them use oil for fertilizers/tractors/etc., without oil, they’re going to be a lot less productive. Without oil, our entire agricultural system collapses. If you find a small scale family farm that still knows how to farm the oil fashioned way, and has soil that can support regular farming–they might be willing to sell you some produce in exchange for transportation. Operative word being might.

    But even if they were, you’d probably eventually need to replace a part. On either your motorcycle or on the windmill that currently supplies your electricity. At which point…


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (1:53 am)

    Jack London:
    Why would our Dept of Energy spend tax payers monies to buy and install charging systems for a Japanese automobile that are in direct competion with American products?

    I think you need to check your facts. Nissan doesn’t get of dime of the “charging system” money. It is being sold and installed by AeroVironment, an American company that’s been around for nearly forty years and has its headquarters in California. The charging interface they are installing will work with all of the pluggable cars coming out in the next few years, including Ford and, of course, the Volt.


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (2:00 am)

    I think this thing is good since, It help a lot people to make life easy.


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (2:18 am)

    Tagamet: Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Welcome back Doc! I hope you find yourself rested from a nice break.


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (3:04 am)

    JohnK: It is my understanding that the Volt comes with 2 120 volt cables, one to be stored in a compartment in “the trunk” to be used when away from home.

    That’s an interesting possibility that I hadn’t considered. For (I think) a couple of months now I’ve been puzzling over that picture Lyle put at the top of this page. I couldn’t figure out why there were two images of the back of the portable charge adapter, one with holes to hang it on the wall, one without. I had pretty much decided they were two prototype designs, and one of them would win out in the end.


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (3:26 am)

    LauraM: I try to believe the best about people. All people. Even politicians.

    Why? We are what we are. Even the politicians :)


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (4:56 am)

    LauraM: I try to believe the best about people. All people. Even politicians. Besides I think actual malice is rare. Self interest is much more common…  (Quote)

    Either way I think the best way to deal with the problem is to kick them all out, elect no incumbents for the next three elections. Then we will see change. By the time they figure out how to advance their own self interest, we’ll be kicking them out.


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (6:04 am)

    DonC: It’s a test for crying out loud. DOE is trying to figure out what the infrastructure requirements are for EVs, which is why the public and private chargers will be concentrated in a few areas. FWIW the chargers aren’t altogether “free” in that you have to agree to allow your charging and driving information to be collected. Getting that information is a big part of the test program. Basically if you want decent information you have to spend money to get it. It’s just a fact of life.I’d contrast this with the home filling tax credit program for CNG vehicles. That program is designed to encourage the purchase of CNG vehicles rather than to gather information.  (Quote)

    Seems like this will skew the results. Real world, many buyers may be perfectly content with 120V charging at home (especially for EREVs). Seems like more accurate results would be achieved if the just offered an addition discount off of the vehicles to participate and perhaps anticipated incentives for public/workplace charging ports.


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (6:21 am)

    LauraM: koz: You are being far too generous.

    I try to believe the best about people. All people. Even politicians. Besides I think actual malice is rare. Self interest is much more common

    My bad. I should have been more specific in my response. I was reacting to this statement:

    LauraM: Basically, he was faced with an electorate who wanted something for nothing. And he wanted to stay in office. So he did the logical thing–borrow.

    I don’t blame the electorate so completely and broadly for the poor Bush administration decisions. There are effective ways to govern along the moderate, conservative mantra that he campaigned on,at least the first election. The second election was won on 9/11. I don’t believe he was acting out of malice, rather he was simply “acting out” in a lot of situations. :)


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (8:58 am)

    LauraM: At which point…

    … I will use the same amount of oil as any other local wind (or solar) powered EV owner, which is massively less oil overall than the average North American.

    You make a valid point that grow your own food by hand is a wonderful way to have higher quality, healthier meals. Reminds me of Victory Gardens during WW II. Some folks still do those, you know.

    poster.jpg

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_garden


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    koz: You are being far too generous.

    #173

    True that. +1


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (10:49 am)

    This is exciting news in watching the development of “new age” vehicles! Thanks for the information. http://www.dmeautomotive.com


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (10:51 am)

    Can’t wait until we have them on the lots! http://www.londoff.com


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (12:06 pm)

    jeffhre: LauraM: I try to believe the best about people. All people. Even politicians.

    Why? We are what we are. Even the politicians :)

    I sleep better that way.


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (12:16 pm)

    ECO_Turbo: Either way I think the best way to deal with the problem is to kick them all out, elect no incumbents for the next three elections. Then we will see change. By the time they figure out how to advance their own self interest, we’ll be kicking them out.

    Personally I think people tend to figure out how to advance their self interests pretty quickly. But you might be right about kicking them out. I’m certainly not that happy with our current politicians. Especially after today’s article in the New York Times…

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/us/politics/18ads.html?hp

    Corrupt politicians tend to rule more effectively when they’re there longer. That why they’re not into picking and running. Their interests are more long term. And they’re generally not as anxious to set themselves up for when they’re out of office. (See Indonesia vs. Tanzania) But at this point..


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (12:21 pm)

    koz: I don’t blame the electorate so completely and broadly for the poor Bush administration decisions. There are effective ways to govern along the moderate, conservative mantra that he campaigned on,at least the first election. The second election was won on 9/11. I don’t believe he was acting out of malice, rather he was simply “acting out” in a lot of situations. :)

    If he had followed that moderate conservative mantra, the fallout from the dot com bust would have been much worse, and he wouldn’t have been re-elected.

    That’s not to say I agree with what he did. He could have used that fiscal expansion for things like repairing infrastructure. And building trains. And alternative energy research. But that’s now who he was. And the electorate knew that when he was elected.

    Clearly, the electorate didn’t expect all the corruption and mismanagement that went on during the Bush years. But that tends to happen when people aren’t paying attention….which the American electorate does not.

    I’m not excusing the man. But Bush is basically irrelevant at this point. The important thing is figuring out how to prevent that from happening again. And that means we have to examine our part in the fiasco rather than just giving ourselves a pass. And figuring out how we can help prevent it from happening again. It’s not like the corruption left Washington with George Bush…


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (12:31 pm)

    EVO: … I will use the same amount of oil as any other local wind (or solar) powered EV owner, which is massively less oil overall than the average North American.

    So do I. That’s wasn’t my point. My point was that we’re all reliant on oil to some degree. If the oil were to suddenly disappear, society would literally collapse. And we’d all be affected. There are a lot of reasons to drive an EV. But that doesn’t make you an island. We’re all in this together.

    EVO: You make a valid point that grow your own food by hand is a wonderful way to have higher quality, healthier meals. Reminds me of Victory Gardens during WW II. Some folks still do those, you know

    True. And if you have a garden, absolutely it’s a great idea to grow your own food. It still is the patriotic thing to do. It’s also good for the environment. And good for your health. However, it’s highly unlikely that anyone will manage to feed themselves entirely from it…Which isn’t to say every little bit doesn’t help…


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (1:28 pm)

    LauraM: So do I. If the oil were to suddenly disappear, society would literally collapse. And we’d all be affected. bsp; (Quote)

    And the less oil we use in our vehicles, including agricultural, the less disappears, delaying societal collapse. We get it. Major equipment manufacturers are too, very slowly but inevitably (Polaris, John Deere, Leibherr, Navistar, Caterpillar, Freightliner, Mack, etc., etc.). In fact, any manufacturer not making ALL product more efficient is doomed sooner rather than later.

    Now can I go back to beating gasser supercars off the line with my EV?


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    Jun 18th, 2010 (3:03 pm)

    EVO: And the less oil we use in our vehicles, including agricultural, the less disappears, delaying societal collapse. We get it. Major equipment manufacturers are too, very slowly but inevitably (Polaris, John Deere, Leibherr, Navistar, Caterpillar, Freightliner, Mack, etc., etc.). In fact, any manufacturer not making ALL product more efficient is doomed sooner rather than later.

    Hopefully, if enough manufacturers go in this direction we’ll prevent societal collapse…not just delay it.

    EVO: Now can I go back to beating gasser supercars off the line with my EV?

    LOL. Absolutely.


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    Jun 19th, 2010 (10:23 am)

    Obviously, the collecting of data from the first 4,400 installs is worth * a lot * to the planning process, to avoid the waste with the potentially-ineffective installations of tens of thousands of the various different kinds and types of equipment. (Otherwise, you’d watch the same complaint sources voice even louder complaints.) The “taxpayers money” would be wasted many-fold more by the “taxpayers themselves directly”, by the “taxpayer’s uninformed decision” based on, what?

    Insufficient data to the “taxpayer”.

    Sign me up to participate to share charging datum with my Volt!!