GM has partially lifted the veil on how they go about testing cars in hot weather environments in the latest example of Volt development transparency. This week engineers have been putting a fleet of Volt prototypes through extreme heat testing in GM’s Desert Proving Grounds in Yuma, Arizona.
Hot Soak Evaluation
In this test the Volt is baked all day on black top pavement in direct sunlight and 96 degree temperatures. Lead durability test engineer Steve Pratt measured the interior air temperature of the car at 138 degrees. He went on to check for squeaks and rattles that might be created by the heat, both while standing and driving, and finds none.
He also test the ability of the AC to quickly cool the car to acceptable levels and finds it does so satisfactorily.
“Things went very well,” he said.
Grade Load Testing
In this case GM engineers evaluated the car’s performance at continuous climbing in high heat. To simulate a continuous grade, engineers hitch a towing dynamometer to the rear of the car and drive around a circular track (see graphic above). The dyno can simulate a continuous grade of anywhere from 2 to 10 percent, and on this test they looked at 5 and 7.2 percent at 106 degrees F. The test checks for overheating and how the car handles the stress and strain on what amounts to an endless mountain.
Pratt’s team also took the cars up a 7000 foot climb in Arizona in range extended mode and found they “performed excellent.”
Of note GM doesn’t not recommend using the Volt to tow. Engineers had to remove part of the rear fascia to hitch the dyno.
City Cycle Testing
In this test GM engineers take Volts into continuous city cycle repeated driving under high heat circumstances. Once again the point is to look for car failures in the grueling heat with particular respect to overheating or electrical disruptions.
Once again, the car handles this testing well.
Trailing Dust Test
In this test the Volt follows behind a Chevy Silverado for 12.2 miles and the truck kicks up desert dust. Engineers then screen for intrusion of the dust into the vehicle through door seal, vents, and other filtration systems. Success on that one too.
Pratt says in his 15 years of running this test, “the Volt is is one of the best cars he’s ever tested” on this course.
Road Schedule Temperature Profile
This checks for real-world pressures and temperatures in the fuel tank at high temperatures. It is done on a 72 minute cycle at 40 percent capacity and ensures fuel is not improperly evaporating.
As GM sums up the experience in a statement, “the Volt has performed very well under the stress and strain of all these tests, but the rigorous testing and validation continues because the Volt is an electric vehicle for all temperatures and seasons.”
The extreme heat testing adds to the suite of previous tests GM has already put the Volt through and shared with us. This includes extreme winter testing and mountain climbs such as Pike’s Peak. The car is on track for retail launch now little more than four months away.
Source (GM)
+20
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:00 am)Excellent report!
I always get good information on your site Lyle. Keep up the good work!
+45
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:05 am)I’m so happy to be an American, and that this amazingly engineered car has been developed in my country.
+15
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:16 am)Good to see continued positive news about getting Volt right before launch. I am not in the car biz but would expect this thorough, deliberate approach to real-world testing the product will, among other more important goals, lead to more credible data for eventual advertising on EV range and MPG for distances beyond EV range.
Good thing too because for this prospective buyer, with the current state of battery development, a reasonably priced vehicle with BEV-only range won’t do it.
+17
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:25 am)Test, test, and retest.
Near perfection is almost here.
+22
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:31 am)This is great news for someone who lives in the Houston area! There’s no doubt that my Volt will experience conditions similar to the ones they are putting the test cars through right now. It’s comforting to know that when you purchase a car from GM, you can rely upon its performance, no matter the environment. And, that last sentence in the article about the car coming to market in a little over four months really is exciting!
LJGTVWOTR!
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:34 am)Happy to see the positive results coming forth in their testing. Well done! By that I mean well-performed, not the cooking preference.
+11
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:35 am)Always fun to see a testing update. Wonder if any of the T batteries have successfully reached the 5000 charge cycle mark? This being one charge cycle per day for 13.7 years.
GM will do well to offer Volt test data sheets to perspective buyers.
=D-Volt
+17
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:37 am)I wonder if GM has tried some “Joe 6 pack” tests. Like…
- Never plugin for months
- Run out fuel (gas & battery charge) several times.
- Drive over surfaces that scrapes the underside of the car. On ICE only vehicle, you might pull off the muffler. On the Volt, is it possible to damage the battery pack? A little more expensive than a muffler repair.
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:43 am)typical GM thoroughness
+9
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:45 am)The approach taken by GM and Nissan couldn’t be more different and it would seem that the quality of the Volt will be much, much higher than the Leaf (not that they are true competitors with each other).
OT: Hey Ziv, are you out there? If you don’t mind sharing could you let me know what dealer(s) you’ve been working with in the DC area? Awhile ago you had mentioned that your experience was good and my dealer has been somewhat non-responsive regarding the Volt.
+6
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:48 am)Just can’t hardly wait until they let customers have some of this fun.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:59 am)Why doesn’t GM recommend the Volt to tow?
OK, electric range gets reduced, and mileage will be suffering, but that is expected.
Is there any other reasons for not towing with your Volt? Too much strain on regenetive braking?
(Yes, I know putting a mobile home on the hook might be a bad idea… but to tow some small trailer?)
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:00 am)Thanks Lyle for all your info on your site. This information is very interesting in knowing how much work goes into testing a vehicle. Very cool stuff!
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:05 am)good news! good job Lyle, keep it up
+18
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:05 am)I truly believe that GM will be overwhelmed with orders for this car.
I hope they have plans in place to increase production very quickly!
Pre-Oders would give them that information…….
Have Outlet – Ready For E-REV
NPNS
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:21 am)Great news! Thanks Lyle!
+24
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:31 am)Awesome. The Volt is going to provide an electric vehicle with ZERO limitations in the 4 passenger small car market.
Great Job.
GM sure does not appear to be pedaling vapor ware, halo cars, Big Oil conspiracies, evil corporation shennanigans, or any of the other accusations that are hurled at them on a regular basis.
+7
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:32 am)I disagree with the pre orders part. At this point with Nissan already pulling this PR game there’s a small chance it could help and a big chance it could hurt. Creating the same 99 dollar (refundable) show, some would say they are playing catch up. Raising the amount to 250 or 500 would certainly create less reservations. Nissan is the underdog playing underdog games. The real test will be number of cars sold and delivered a year or two from now. I think we all know who will win that war.
P.S. I’m not a Leaf hater, I think more electrics the better, I just hope nobody puts a junk car out there. This could hurt more than help.
+8
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:33 am)Many cars are not suitable for towing. The added strain adds much heat into the system.
My 4 cylinder 2010 Equinox cannot tow. They will not install the gear and apparently it violates the warranty.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:34 am)Heat is one of the main factors that will shorten battery life. With all the thermal management, you’d think the Volt might have an advantage over the leaf as far as battery life goes in extreme temperature locales. It will be interesting to see how a Phoenix based Leaf and a Phoenix based Volt’s batteries have fared 6 or 8 years from now.
The Leaf has a battery temperature gauge displayed rather prominently:
http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/tokyo/2009/112_0910_nissan_leaf/photo_14.html
I don’t recall seeing a battery temperature gauge in any of the Volt photos. (?)
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:35 am)GM is doing it right this time. ‘Nuff said.
+10
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:36 am)GM is doing a great job to minimize potential problems with this car.
Makes me all the more confident that a purchase of the VOLT will be a smart decision.
Thanks for all of the great information on this site.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:55 am)You sure thats not the ambient temperature?
-16
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:57 am)(click to show comment)
-1
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:58 am)How do you know that?.. for all we know Nissan may be testing the LEAF under water in Japan.. Japanese cars do not have a reputation for shoddy engineering or workmanship.
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:01 am)It’s battery temperature.
(about 1:06/5:37 into this video)
http://cnettv.cnet.com/2011-nissan-leaf/9742-1_53-50080194.html
+10
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:04 am)This is another example of why startups have a hard time producing new cars. This kind of testing requires facilities and experience that only big companies like GM or Ford have.
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:08 am)Thanks for the update Lyle. Like Dave K, I would be very intersted in getting an update on battery life testing. Lyle, do you have any new information on that subject? It seems battery life is maybe the last piece of the puzzle to making the most perfect car ever built.
+7
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:15 am)This is where we see the difference between a large manufacturer and a small newcomer like Tesla. Only big manufacturers like GM have the resources to make sufficient testings in all kind of weathers and places.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:22 am)This is more of a demonstration of GM seriousness on the Volt. They are clearly wanting to get it right before the launch.
My engineering curiosity wonders what the AER is after a hot soak at 106F?
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:22 am)I would expect (but haven’t read this anywhere) that the Leaf and the Volt would have safety features built in to limit the load on the battery should it start to get too hot. I think acceleration/speed could be reduced, A/C compressor load reduced — maybe the car would slow down or even stop altogether if the batt temp got too hot in order to prevent ruining a $10,000+ battery.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:27 am)You need to toss the spec sheet in front of the dealer, or maybe just go to a new dealer. The 4-cyl 2010 Equinox has a rated 1,500-lb towing capacity and the 6-cyl has a 3,500 tow capacity. Heck… even the Cobalt has a 1,000 lb tow capacity.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:29 am)Wow. The Volt IS ready for prime time even in the hottest of climates, and the coldest. Hopefully these test results convince GM to speed up making the Volt available to all parts of the nation.
I hope among the first Volt television commercials is one that shows the car being beaten and abused during these climate tests just to prove that not only is the car is the real deal, but anyone who buys one will know that they won’t be participants in a beta test.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:30 am)Pre-orders… +1
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:32 am)They might want to add a bucket of water in the chassis to add evaporative moisture in the cabin while doing a bake test on the pavement.
Not all cars will be sitting in parking lots in the dry desert. Some will be down south with the humidity and temperature being around 100%/103 degrees during the summer. This has a tendancy to soften the glues in the plastics causing rippling on the dash and other areas over the years. Not to mention the carpet cleaning machines putting moisture in the cloth and foam. If the cars are sitting in the desert for testing you should see condensation on the inside of the windows at minimum.
This can have adverse effects on the plastics and electronics especially if the heater ducts over time don’t work properly. I have experienced this with my car. The heater duct plastic joints where the diaphragms pull the duct open and closed dry out or dry rot and snap off. The heater during winter will blow hot air but because the ducts don’t open correctly will sometimes overheat the blower motor and electronics behind the dash on 1.5 hour commute to work.
It gets to the point that I can put my hand near the radio and its somewhat hot to the touch.
What I am getting at is one simple failure can trigger and cascade and cause other unforeseen failures and with the hundreds of computers in new cars who knows where the ghost lurks?
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:32 am)I don’t think there’s any doubt that Nissan has been doing the same kind of testing on the Leaf. They’ve got 5 test tracks including a hot weather testing facility in Stanfield, Arizona.
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1026198_nissan-opens-new-test-track
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:33 am)I’m not in the car business, but I wouldn’t call that a test.
Seems to me more information from customers would be better and a website that shows mastery of 20th century technology would help the perceptions more than seeming to be following in Nissan’s footsteps, dunno really, it hasn’t been tried.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:37 am)GM has taken an extraordinarily open/transparent approach to the engineering of their car, Nissan has not. The approach that Nissan has taken seems very rushed, GM’s approach has not been. Nissan’s focus seems to be mostly focused on earning the title of the first mass produced EV, GM’s approach (shockingly given their record in the last couple of decades) is to focus on quality and getting the leap frog technology right. In that sense Nissan seems to be marketing driven and GM seems to be engineering driven with respect to these two vehicles.
This is not to hate on the Leaf. While I’m leaning toward the Volt, a BEV works fine for me given my driving needs and so I hope that the Leaf is a quality vehicle and makes the purchasing decision difficult for me.
+11
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:40 am)Because Toyotas never runaway on their own or have problems stoping or have a spare tire fall out and more? Every car company has recalls, but recall after recall in the last year say some Japanese cars DO have a reputation for shoddy engineering or workmanship.
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:52 am)Thats funny scrape the underside!
One day driving on the back roads I was going over a road that went up and down up and down up and down a hill and coming down one of the hills the front of the Alero dug into the gravel road shoved a bucket of gravel into the under carriage. I guess I was going a little fast for the shocks to adjust in time.
So it does occur!
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:00 am)Great Video Carcus3-Thanks. I didn’t know about the solar trickle charger. Must be in the “Luxury” trim option and the nice thing is it trickle charges the battery (and the key word is trickle) but at least it charges the battery instead of just pushing a vent fan. The car looks really trick and I have a chance to be part of the first wave here in PHX. Something tells me I would be foolish not to jump on the chance. I could trade up to a Volt at a later date.
While Lyle has not encouraged me to go for the Leaf, I may try it anyway just for fun. I’m sure Tom would say to give it a shot also.
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:03 am)Quote:
“In this test the Volt is baked all day on black top pavement in direct sunlight and 96 degree temperatures.”
96 degrees??????? That’s not Yuma or Phoenix. Try 110 thats more like it.
Oh, it’s been a cool spring I forgot.
-3
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:07 am)Or not:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008seleeng2f.jsp?year=2000&make=Nissan&model=Altra%20EV
just sayin…
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:07 am)Thanks for the article Lyle,
Mostly PR oriented as opposed to engineering though:
Real world test results are never THAT good.
Oh, that’s right it was only 96.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:13 am)Why not just start the ICE and cool the battery?
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:15 am)Hey GM, for a very small cost why not incorporate a small solar-powered exhaust fan in the cabin? Cars only really cook when the sun is intense, so it would be a perfect fit. While it wouldn’t “cool” the car, it would be the equivalent of leaving the window open a crack. And think of the “good guy” marketing value to parents who get terrified every time they hear an awful story of some stressed out parent who left ther baby in the car by mistake and killed them with heat.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:19 am)I am still a fan of the idea that the Volt (mules) should have been given out at random to people (preferably from this list) for “real world” testing.. some in the hot climates, some in mountainous regions, some in the colder climates… After 3 months switch the test mules around to the other different environments to see how they would handle the change … say from a climate of 90 + Degrees F to one of 15 to -15 Degrees F.
Did not happen and won’t now but I believe that “real world” testing and “real world” mileage ratings would be more benifical to all of us the would like to see the TRUE numbers and observations.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:26 am)I think your financial risk is relatively low. Even with battery tech evolving so quickly, the car could be upgraded with new batteries eventually and early Leafs will have some “collector’s item” value. Even if you do look back a few years from now and realize you sacrificed a ‘few thou’, the fun factor of being on the first wave was probably worth it. (all IMO of course, ymmv)
/I think the only people who could end up dissapointed in the Leaf are those who buy planning on stretching the limits of the car’s range (i.e. someone with a 90 mile RT commute).
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:27 am)More good info, thanks Lyle;
Trailer: shouldn’t VS can’t. What is that black bra thingy on the back of the Volt in the picture? Is it part of the trailer attachment? Sticking a bumper hitch on it may be a trick. My take: doit-doitdoitdoitdoit! If it fries the car — take it off and then get a warranty repair.
Volt vs LEAF: GM seems to be a little shy about the Volt — they want to check everything. Nissan– who knows, they aren’t telling. Does this exhaustive testing make the Volt better, or just more expensive? It certainly delays the build.
TELSA: How can you sell a whopping 1000 cars — yet have so much press? No conclusions to be drawn from them — mgmt must have planned for more sales than that, got the pricing structure wrong.
OT: the HEMTT: Army truck — series hybrid like the Volt. http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/hybrid-truck-hemtt.html
“The ProPulse system uses a unique, modular series-hybrid arrangement to simplify the transmission of power to the wheels. The diesel engine powers an electric generator, which provides direct power to the wheels, eliminating the torque converter, automatic transmission, transfer case and drive shafts. The system has no batteries, using ultracapacitors for energy storage instead. A regenerative braking function stores engine energy and then uses it to assist in the next braking operation, reducing wear and tear on the brake system.”
Yeasss! A Road-Train!
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:32 am)To be fair, I’d say Nissan is testing too. They’re probably just not being as open about it.
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:33 am)That will happen first, … I’m just saying, BEV or Plug in Hybrid with the big lithium packs, if an overheat occurs there’s probably going to be “automatic shut downs” involved.
/wonder what the Tesla has for temperature gauges/ safety features in the event of battery overheat?? I haven’t read anything on this.
+9
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:37 am)Based on the recent range projections–a 50 mile commute could be a problem in the summer if you can’t charge at work. Especially if you want to stop for groceries on the way home…
+9
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:41 am)I’ll be happy just to hand the ‘keys’ to my first VOLT customer. I’m sure he/she will be more excited than me, but not by much.
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:44 am)John W (Tampa) said:
P.S. I’m not a Leaf hater, I think more electrics the better, I just hope nobody puts a junk car out there. This could hurt more than help.
Hey, it would be nice to have some cheap used stuff out there to use for batteries and project cars, etc.
-2
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:46 am)If you’re sitting there for 8 hours (6 mph) with the A/C on, then yes, 50 miles could be a problem.
/might want to think about changing your job/domicile if this is an issue, regardless of what you drive.
-1
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:52 am)http://gawker.com/5259560/phrases-to-be-banned-just-sayin
You meant it or you didn’t, pick one.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:54 am)I keep seeing these kinds of extrapolations, and they are somewhat misleading. 5000 cycles over 6 months is not the same as 5000 cycles over 13.7 years, or 5000 cycles (once per week) over 96 years, or…
Lithium batteries have a limited lifetime just sitting on the shelf, i.e. with 0 cycles. Hobbyists who are really careful with their batteries keep them in a refrigerator when not in use for a long period. Of course they let them warm back up to room temperature before use. I can say from personal experience that a battery which has been sitting unused at room temperatures for 3 or 4 years has less current delivery capability and less capacity than when it was new. Of course the good news is that by the time your Volt battery is getting tired after 5 or 6 years (or maybe it will be 10-12), regardless of the number of cycles, there will be new-technology replacement batteries which are far better. Let’s hope the price is reasonable though.
My other grumpy comment is that *all* new car designs go through cold weather testing, hot weather testing, etc, etc. The difference is that you usually don’t hear about it like this. So pick any car that was widely regarded as a dud — it must have went through comparable testing (cough, Vega, cough) and presumably passed.
+4
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:56 am)Haven’t you ever hit unexpected traffic that goes on forever? If you only have 2/3rds of your battery left because you went 25 miles to work at 80 mph with the AC on in 98 degree weather…personally, I wouldn’t want to have to worry about my battery running out of charge…
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:57 am)GM has been very transparent although since Lutz left the bandwidth seems smaller. He was always good for throwing out a bone about something interesting.
The great thing about the aggressive Leaf rollout is that we’ll find out whether an EV will work or not. The Mini-E experience suggests it’s not such a big deal so long as you understand the car’s limits. My guess is that the Leaf will prove workable for large numbers of people but, like I said, we’ll find out.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:02 am)My personal observation is that range anxiety is heavily influenced by gender. I haven’t yet talked to a woman who doesn’t express it. Guys not so much. This may be tied to which gender is more likely to run out of gas but I don’t want to go there.
-2
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:14 am)If you’re going to drive a BEV, you might have to occasionally think a little bit (*gasp*!).
Turning the A/C down/off, slowing down to the speed limit, taking a different route, etc..
I hear people talking about their iphones, it’s amazing how quickly “non-tech” people become tech savvy when it’s related to something they want. Iphone users very quickly learn how to turn off the wifi /3g when not needed, turn on screen auto-bright, etc… in order to maximize their battery life. I expect BEV drivers with half a brain will figure out battery management as well — but a BEV won’t be for everybody.
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:15 am)I’m sure there’s temp test sensors all over the car. Comforting, testing at high interior temps, max stress climbs at highway speeds-that should take care of questions-no surprises. And no we don’t need to know where every temp sensor is located. This data applies to all EV’s across GM. Testing doesn’t stop here. Taking sample production units, where I assume these cars under test in Lyle’s article originated, keeps the line clean.
I have a fixation about keeping warm when stalled in the Sierras below zero- so next fall-winter when you take a SF to Reno blizzard run carry extra fuel if VOLT’s tank’s still a puny 6 galoons.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:19 am)I’m sure Nissan is testing the heck out of their LEAF. This isn’t GM or Nissan’s 1st Rodeo…
You can bet both companies are extra sensative to reliability and performance given Toyota’s recent issues and the hype surrounding the LEAF / VOLT. So Nissan is being more low key and GM more open. Does it really matter in 2 yrs..? NOPE . It will come down to who executes and pays attention to details and I suspect both cars will be pretty reliable as both companies have alot at stake. After that it’s good Old Economics with the Law of Supply and Demand kicking in…
Go VOLT and/or LEAF
-1
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:26 am)Probably because they fear keeping an eye on the range gauge will interfere with yammering on the cell phone while driving.
/oops, gotta go. I’m late for my sexual harassment training.
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:27 am)Not to mention…speed bumps, uneven pavement like pulling into a parking garage, etc.
A friend had a “perfectly sized” rock hit his transmission while on a nice paved road. It was dark and he did not see it in time to avoid it. It was a costly repair since the transmission was not adequately protected. I would imagine that a battery pack costs more than a transmission.
+6
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:30 am)I actually agree with you that it might be a gender issue. The men I know tend to be much more comfortable with risk in general than women are. Women tend to be more risk averse. Which might be why we live longer…
Besides, women are more of a target. There are a lot of areas that I’ve driven through, where if the battery ran out of charge, it would actually be dangerous. Rather than just inconvenient and expensive. It wouldn’t be nearly as dangerous if I were a man.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:36 am)The other thing with the volt is that it only uses 50% of the battery—very conservative, so when the battery loses capacity I would think they will just make a software change to open up more of the pack
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:37 am)Kup, the Chevy guys I talked to were at Koons Chevrolet at Tysons Corner. They had already taken one deposit (refundable) and both the sales guy and the manager seemed to be pretty fired up to get the Volt ‘sometime after Halloween’. They said their techs were starting the Volt classes and that it was possible that Capital Hill bigwigs might get several of the first Volts to come in. The thing that impressed me most is that when I asked what the Volts fit and finish was like, the manager was just about raving about the Volts quality. He just sounded proud as hell.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:37 am)#60
Right on both counts. Guilty as charged. LOL +1
Maybe the women have just been in the car too many times when their dumba** husbands have run out of gas. My wife for example, hahaha.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:38 am)The latest on battery life is 100% performance upto the 10 year mark. With 80% performance for a time thereafter. Just wondering if we could get a little more detail. Has something changed to make the battery last longer? Has something changed to provide quicker recharge? Does heavy use of “mountain mode” effect the battery life?
I plan on driving normally. Most days under 40 miles distance. With one or two per week at 60 miles. One day each few months at 200+ miles.
=D-Volt
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:38 am)Laura,
Don’t worry Nissan wouldn’t let you buy one anyway. You would not get thru the interview.
+8
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:40 am)Excuse me? I normally avoid the women/men thing on this blog. But are you seriously claiming that women aren’t as intelligent as men? You might want to look at those college admission stats..
Translation. I should add half an hour to my commute time. Every single day. And go without AC? Do you have any idea how hot it gets in the summer in New York? There are sacrifices that I’m prepared to make to reduce my oil use, but there are things I’m not willing to sacrifice. I suspect you’re the same. Do you eat beef? Because that uses more oil than all of our cars put together.
I’m sure I can figure it out. That’s not the same thing as being willing to make the sacrifices and take the risks required.
-2
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:40 am)Have you ever had a car leave you stranded? The component that failed, would it have been there TO fail if you were driving a BEV?
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:44 am)FYI–I never talk on the cell phone while driving. Neither do any of my female friends. It’s dangerous. I know quite a few men who do though…
+4
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:44 am)#68
VERY cool. +1
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:45 am)The video I would love to see is the extreme off road testing I remember seeing corvette testing yes corvette where they were driving over curbs at 50 miles an hour and through sand dunes and dirt and gravel at high speeds trying to drive the front wheels up through the front fenders it was absolutely amazing to see a corvette flying 15 feet thought the air and keep going after crashing through a dirt pile.
Tom
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:48 am)Bizarrely, not off topic:
http://www.newsok.com/while-in-oklahoma-city-u.s.-mayors-urge-higher-use-of-natural-gas/article/3468626
How’s that natural gas range extender version of the Volt gen x and all other GM models coming along, GM?
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/locator/stations/state
+4
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:49 am)The numbers look really good for getting Volts out in the warmer climates when testing is at 96 degrees. This is because most of us in the Southwest, will not experience battery depletion conditions in the hot afternoons, but, instead, in the cool mornings where the highest peak Summer temperature is about 81 degrees.
In the afternoons, the CS mode may more likely just kick in a little bit sooner, and, it would just be a matter of the software deciding as to when that point would be.
I know my ER usage would be utilized between the hours of 6am and 11 am each day, very well before the peak Summertime temperature approaches the 94 degree point.
This might be the case for most everyone else that drives in Texas, as well as elsewhere here in the Southwest.
I hope Austin will be named an additional initial new release/sales area.
I would love to be able to take a month or two or more “off” to do nothing but talk to audiences as well as public officials, business board members, and on and on about everything Volt.
(Yesterday, I “talked the ears off” of the personnel at my Chevrolet Dealer, and, they were really “on their chair’s edge” with everything I said about how wonderfully the Volt drives, and all of the incredible technologies designed into it.)
+7
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:50 am)Actually. No. I haven’t. And I can’t say that it’s an experience I’m interested in having.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:50 am)#72
Don’t take it too seriously. +1 Speaking as a man, I found it to be just as insulting as you did, LOL.
I was just wondering about you this AM, not having seen your name here for awhile. Nice to have you back. Best regards.
-2
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:52 am)Ahhh, no. That wasn’t a gender jab. For that, see my post at #64.
Somehow that really got lost in translation. What I’m saying is, if you find yourself in an unusual circumstance, like getting stuck in traffic for 8 FREAKING HOURS, then you might want to think a little and adjust as necessary. If the car won’t work for your typical commute, then don’t buy the car. Pretty simple.
/ In order to avoid going off on a tangent that leads nowhere, I’m not gonna touch that beef thing.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:55 am)BTW, nice thread so far today guys. Lots of positive comments and “+1s”. Way to go!
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:58 am)See this is where I didn’t want to go. Ba ha ha ha ha!
And why as a group they make better investment decisions and get higher returns. With respect to cars, I’m thinking that actual results will dissipate imagined as opposed to actual range problems. Also keep in mind that from the empirical study that Lyle posted most people, regardless of gender, don’t like the range gauge to fall below half, so both genders share some range anxieties.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:00 am)I like hearing from Laura M.
I’m sure GM has the statistics on who is more concerned with range anxiety, women or men. And with my limited knowledge on this I too would guess women. There’s another plus for the Volt, I see an awful lot of women driving around in Prius’. And they’ll almost never have to go to a dirty gas station!
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:05 am)Uh oh, carcus is “Textually” harassing Miss LauraM
lol…..
Bad carcus, bad bad carcus!
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:05 am)Can someone explain to me why they are doing this “HOT” test at this point of production? Unless this testing is meant for Gen. II, I would have thought the Hot and cold testing would have been done early on so changes could be made before it might be a big problem. It sounds like these tests might be more about endurance limits rather than normal hot driving conditions. I hope they just keep the Volt off the Marine Corp. Proving grounds there!
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:09 am)If my wife unit is any indication, she gets range anxiety on long trips when the OPEC gauge is a 1/4 tank full. She’s all…..”we need to hurry up and find a gas station blah blah blah…..”
Me on the other hand never fill my tank to full. Always less than half and add more when half way between 1/4 tank and empty. I guess that woud be 1/8 a tank. But that’s just me, a cheap B@stard.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:16 am)And my original point was that even though that would be a rare occurrence, things happen unexpectedly. Like an extra two-three hours stuck in traffic. It happens maybe once or twice a year. But that’s not the same thing as never.
Maybe I’m the only ones who’s had days where everything that could go wrong–does.
That’s why I usually try to avoid gender-related discussions. Especially ones that involve insulting each other. It leads nowhere.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:17 am)That’s the same as me always posting this…
No Power Windows
No Power Adjust Seats
No Power Side view mirrors
No Power Sunroof (Actually No Sunroof at all!!)
No Power Door Locks
No Power Trunk lock
No Radio (Remember that fiasco? – Get an iPod)
No Heated Seats
No GPS (My Phone has one and it WORKs!)
No OnStar!!! Yuk, Phoey!
I don’t have an EV and it’s already figured out….lol
-2
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:19 am)He meant that little Viena thingy. It’s lunch time where he’s @.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!
/back to my non Kahlua coffee.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:21 am)Yes, it will be interesting to see if you have to beg at the dealership to get the % increased, or if it will automagically happen? Of course this would be somewhat of a “suicide solution”, because increasing the battery range used will decrease the battery’s life at a faster rate than before.
Speaking of ladies and dirty gas pumps, reminds me of when I was in college and at the gas station. An attractive lady pulled up with a Rabbit (Golf) diesel and said she’d “forgotten” how to fill it up, and would I mind doing it for her? Of course I said yes, and gallantly filled her tank. Afterwards when my hands stunk like diesel fuel I realized I’d been had. Tricky!
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:23 am)I may be wrong, but my understanding is that they are testing the “pre-production cars” that are trickling off the Hamtramck “production” assembly line.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:24 am)I shouldn’t have responded. I usually ignore comments I find offensive.
About my being here/ not being here–I work long hours. (Well, I think they’re long hours anyway.) Many of those hours, I sit around waiting for other people to get back to me. Which leaves me lots of time on the Internet. But sometimes I get too busy to check in here. And, unfortunately, work has to take priority..
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:26 am)10 years down the road:
If “they” had statistics on this — number of tow trucks called per miles driven — I predict the number will be higher for the Volt than for the Leaf.
The Volt is much, much more complicated than the Leaf (it’s got an ICE, cooling system for the ICE, cooling system for the battery, oxygen sensors, ignition system, radiator hoses, cooling pumps, , mass air flow sensor, belts, fuel filters, fuel pump, etc, etc, etc, …). There’s a lot more things that can and will go wrong.
Range with a BEV is not going to be that hard to manage. Reports of all the miles driven on the mini-E blogs have shown us that.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:27 am)OT and may be useful for GM, but then again they might already know this but ABG has some demographics on the folks that pre-ordered their LEAF courtesy of Nissan. Looks like 84% are folks above 40yrs old.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/16/nissan-leaf-unexpectedly-drawing-in-the-oldies/
/plays Earth Wind & Fire on phone….
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:27 am)LauraM,
I am a feminist at heart. I too was shocked and angry when I saw the sexist comments above.
I have decided to think they were all joking and bantering with you.
However, if not, count on me as a partner to defend women. You are better than us men is sooooo many ways.
+4
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:27 am)Just a guess, of course, but they probably want to test the darn-near-final control software one more time. I doubt there’s ever been a production car as software-intensive as the Volt. And with software, tweaking one thing can lead to various ramifications you never thought of. You can bet the engineers are still fiddling with it, at a certain point the program managers will have to say, “It’s frozen you guys, unless you find a major showstopper bug, no more fiddling!”.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:29 am)I completely disagree, but I will buy you a drink in 10 years if I am wrong.
Since we probably don’t live close to each other, I’ll drive to you in my Volt.
You will just need a tow truck if you drove to me in your LEAF
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:30 am)I’m with Laura on this one.
No range extender, not interested.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:36 am)lol, you outta try helpdesk. Since soo many in the helpdesk area got laid off, I/we had to start covering it. We always get….”can we make the change after lunch?” or “I can’t do that right now, i’m in the middle of something” or the ever so hated “I’ll call you back when i’m ready to do this….”.
/Dang users.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:36 am)Nobody would ever cut GM that same kind of slack. I hope for your sake you don’t get burned.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:36 am)Hey WASSSUP! DirtyDawgRob!!!
How’s the new job?
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:37 am)Really? I thought it was the opposite. While I was in school, they talked about how women were falling behind on wealth accumulation because we’re more risk averse. Of course, that might have changed after the financial crisis….
In that case, the LEAF is in serious trouble, IMHO.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:40 am)Good one Roger,
Women are smarter than you think.
I am an engineer and I constantly find that my artist wife can come up with a simpler and better solution to a problem than I.
But I guess that means she’s just smarter then engineers, not men.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:42 am)I agree. Considering all the additional moving parts, yeah the percenatges of something to go wrong drastically increases. In an EV the only thing that moves is the motor. In an ICE……well, I think you covered part of the list. Just consider all the moving parts.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:42 am)That’s the other thing women do better than men……
WORK
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:45 am)Thank you.
By the way, I don’t have statistics, but I’ve heard numerous places that most Prius owners are women. So if that’s any indication of who would be interested in an electric car, and women are more prone to range anxiety, the Volt definitely has the edge over the LEAF.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:46 am)lol..
Did you feel like a video game?……cuz you got “Played”!!!!
/I don’t think you were thinking with the right brain.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:48 am)I think I saw that movie.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:50 am)It’s more logical (and far easier) to buy the right tool for a job rather than getting something that is inadequate.
And anyway, traffic jams are not always predictable – bottlenecks can happen out of thin air because of accidents, special events, etc.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:51 am)What you are saying is why I like my pickup truck. It’s reliable and it’s able to handle most any unexpected condition. If something does happen, there are so many around (Silverado or F-150) that most every service center feels an obligation to have the right part and right information about it.
Most likely a truck is not what best fits the needs of NYC but the basic idea of wanting to be confident you will not be stopped by unusual circumstances is a good plan, a little conservative, but an plan that pays back dividends, just when you need them most.
/ coincidentally, today I had to drive over a curb. So I did (slowly); no problem.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:53 am)or not.
“More than half of the 130,000 hand-raisers who have expressed an interest in the Leaf so far have been Prius owners …. ”
Nissan says the Leaf electric car will snag Toyota Prius owners
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100601/CARNEWS/100609997
+14
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:56 am)I have a question to ask of the people here. And its a serious one.
I have been on this site practically since its inception. Don’t post a lot, but do read a lot. Increasingly lately, the discussion has degraded into some sort of competition between who is taking the right route, GM or Nissan.
I make no apologies about the fact that I support GM, or any American company at this point. I was impressed that GM developed the Volt, and I agree 100% with its intent, based on the current (and forseeable) limitations on battery technology and component availability. (People need to take an occasional reality check on how long it actually takes to get groundbreaking tech from the lab to the street, mass produced, at a reasonable cost.)
GM chose to make the Volt a car with no operational limitations, just like any other car out there. Anyone any age can own it, anyone any age can drive it, anytime, anywhere, however they want. I think this is the right approach to reduce our oil consumption. Everyone can contribute.
This is not the case with the LEAF with its range and no ICE extender. Sorry. I, for one could not use a LEAF. Many people I know could not either. The daily mileage limitation risk is too high. If GM made the LEAF, I still couldn’t use it.
To those who think Nissan’s approach is superior, do you really think that designing a car “not for everyone” as has been said here many times, is the best way to address our oil consumption problem? Or is a BEV something you personally desire and really don’t care what others have to drive as long as you can say you are doing YOUR part to reduce oil consumption? Am I correct that you think that:
VOLT: “Everyone having the capability of saving ~40 miles a day, no restrictions”
Is less desirable than
LEAF: “Everyone with the capability of saving ~ 90 miles a day; everyone with restrictions; and some people requiring a second car”?
IMO, in totality, I think the Volt approach is marginally better in that it would be easier to incorporate into our way of life. Which, BTW, our electronic gadgets continually demonstrate and preach to us that we do not have to live with any limitations. Why should our electronics tell us one thing, and then our vehicles force us another?
If every car in the country was an EREV40 tomorrow, nothing would change, everyone would get where their going. The GRID would be unhappy, but that is a common issue that needs addressed regardless. If every car was a BEV100 tomorrow, there would be turmoil everywhere. But in both cases, we would be saving huge amounts of oil.
In 2010 and the forseeable future, why is the BEV100 better than the EREV40? Like I said, this is a serious question.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:56 am)I know I sound a bit like a broken record in my insistence that the success of the Volt will hinge upon how solidly it has been engineered. I can’t tell you how happy I am with everything I’ve been hearing – it’s pretty clear that GM knows that it has to get this one right.
And, I should add, it’s not just for first impressions sake. If they get this one right, they’ll be able to quickly clone the system of different vehicles, because the core drive software and technology, once validated, will be replicated over and over again. That will help bring new vehicles to the market very fast, establishing GM’s dominance.
One last note: I’ve read (and it’s my experience as a mathematical software guy) that software bugs are log-normal distributed, which means that you’ll keep finding them long after the software has gone out the door. The key for GM is to test, test, test, and keep testing. The second and very important point is to make the core drive software as fail safe as possible – meaning that if the drive software gets into a funny state, they car will be able to perform in a safe mode. I’m sure, for example, the Toyota unintended acceleration problems have been a pretty good warning to the industry and GM will be careful to avoid them.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:56 am)I’d tend to think of it as “even more” hot weather testing. After all, they’ve been shaking, baking, freezing, and cycling the dang battery packs in the lab since first getting the packs, did the Death Valley thing, etc.
I’d interpret this round as simply being thorough, and not kicking back until the product is launched.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:02 pm)Come out and talk to a dealer near me. You can write off the expense. I’d like to see the testing done at about 105 f, since in a few weeks that’s what I’ll be dealing with every 3 or 4 days. Fortunately, it’s the humidity and not the heat, right!!!
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:04 pm)You’re lucky you’re not married to me. I get nervous when the gauge goes below 1/2.
Question. How does it save money by not filling up all the way? You wind up using the same amount of gas? If anything I would think that filling up all way reduces extra driving to get to the gas station.
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:08 pm)I’m buying lotto tickets like crazy…
You are in IT so you will ‘get’ this, we close 2 tickets and 5 more come in, I spend everyday with my finger in the dyke hoping to keep the flood under control!
All things considered I’m thinking about finding a cave in the mountains and staying there!
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:09 pm)Shame on you for pandering with that anti-male sexist statement in your closing words……
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:12 pm)Thank you for your kind words. I’ve decided to think the same thing.
Although I suspect Carcus is actually upset that at least 50% of the population might not get over our range anxiety as quickly as he will…
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:19 pm)The electric car has to sell in volume or it will do nothing to reduce oil consumption. In terms of viability, the BEV100 competes with or perhaps beats the ICE car even at $3 gas. The EREV40 does not.
(You’ve been on this site since inception, then surely you’ve seen me (and others) make this argument before.)
/also, if the Leaf is more efficient than the Volt (fewer wh/mile) and most everybody is driving less than 40 mile/ day(GM often points this out) , then the Leaf would actually put less of a load on the grid than the Volt.
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:21 pm)Here is a 2007 survey. I’ll be interested in anything newer …
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-drivers/myth-hybrid-premium.html
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:25 pm)I hope GM doesn’t market Volt like the echochamber here writes.
GM’s USP is that it can run nominal 40 miles on electricity. It is not that it can run several hundred miles after 40 on gas – which 99.99999% of cars already can.
BTW, did GM say what their electric only range was during hot weather testing ? LOL.
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:27 pm)No. It really isn’t. Parking space is at a premium here. There’s also often not that much space when I need to change lanes.
Exactly.
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:31 pm)Being in Las Vegas, 115 degrees, elevation 2500 feet. I told GM I would do the hot weather and mountain climbing in the heat, but to no avail…LOL Mount Charleston is 45 minutes from Vegas with an elevation of approximately 8500 feet. So we had everything that GM was looking for but I guess couldn’t talk them into it. But I glad to hear their test went well. I’m sure what the grade is Mt Charleston, but I’m pretty sure it’s more than 7.2 %, so I hope the Volt will make it to the restaurant and ski resort at the top of Mt Charleston. I’d be pretty disappointed if I only almost made it to the top.
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Er, so my examplars of meaningful, thoughtful, reasonable discourse should be Valleywag and Gawker? Ha!
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:51 pm)I stand corrected. I wonder where that myth came from…
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:54 pm)Even if all Leaf buyers are currently Prius owners, that doesn’t mean that all Prius owners will buy a LEAF.
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:54 pm)#87
“Naaahh, I can’t be out of gas man. I just put in 59 cents worth 2 days ago.”
Cheech Marin
“Gimme a dollars worth, and don’t go leavin’ none in the hose.”
Mac, “Sweet Thursday”, John Steinbeck. (OK, maybe “Cannery Row”. I don’t think so, but it’s been a long time.)
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:58 pm)That was a good post MeterologyFirst. I am a little taken back at times here, how it seems some people have jumped ship for the Leaf over the Volt. The Leaf will work for some of the people, but not all of the people all of the time. A personal preference thing if there ever was one. If some people can hack the limitations of BEV’s, then have at it, but a BEV wouldn’t work for me. An EREV would—that simple. And I don’t feel like less of a human being for preferring an EREV over a BEV either.
It will be interesting to watch in the coming year how the EV competition plays out.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (12:59 pm)#98
Yeah, me too. +1
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:00 pm)You bet!
I agree with what the author is saying.
The saying “just sayin” is usually meant in one of two contexts:
1 – I’m going to say something offensive but don’t want anyone to be offended. If all you are doing is disagreeing on a technical point that you back up (like you did) and the other person is offended, then shame on them not you so saying the phrase is redundant.
2- I’m going to say something that I don’t want to have to defend. Either saying it to begin with knowing it’s wrong or not having the humility to admit you were wrong when confronted and using it as a way out.
Either use is rather annoying.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:00 pm)Couldn’t be more impressed with the development of any automobile than with this VOLT. It has been a new text book example of how to engineer and test a groundbreaking new consumer product. The team launching the VOLT is doing a brilliant job of showing the public a new GM face and assuring buyers that the purchase of a VOLT will be an investment in a very high quality auto. Likely the most advanced automobile in its category ever.
Congrats to VOLT team, GM and the brilliant engineers and technicians who are making electrification of transportation on Earth a reality!! Bravo!
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:02 pm)#99
Yeah, me too. And it goes about 100X for my wife, LOL. +1
Same comment to you as to LauraM at #80. Best regards.
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:03 pm)For the best way to save money when buying gas, follow this rule….
Fill the tank when gas prices are climbing, but when gas prices are falling just buy enough to cover your needs for the next few days.
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:04 pm)You may be right, Nissan has been working on the LEAF since 2005 and other lithium powered BEVs before that. They MAY have been prodded into full production status in 2008 when GM gave the go ahead to the Volt but I’m not sure.. in any case they have more work cut out for them since they also make the battery for the car. In 2000 they sold the Altra EV, a lithium powered EV.
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4644
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:09 pm)That may have been for income. That’s probably true for a number of reasons. For example, in the Sears sexual discrimination lawsuit from years ago the evidence was that female salespeople preferred higher base salaries and less chance at a higher commission. Overall the male salespeople had higher salaries but the risk was greater. (Can’t remember how the case worked out just the arguments). Women may also drop out of the work force if they have children and that can have an impact as well. Plus you’d have to be blind not to recognize that there is still discrimination out there.
Investments are an entirely different story. For investments women do considerably better as a group, primarily because they don’t churn the portfolio running after the newest hot sector.
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:10 pm)Guilty.
I’m a sexist, but it the other direction. My wife likes me being that way.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:15 pm)All very good points Noah. You would hope that GM has brought in some top notch software engineers who will do just as you point out – build in a Safe Mode which disables all but essential drive train and safety firmware. That will allow the car to reach a service center without needing a tow.
Also on first revs, they might consider using OnStar for automated bug reports (this may already be in the monitoring design.) The more data GM can accumulate, the better the next gen EVs will be. GM is moving from a mechanical company to an electro-mechanical company. A major component will be high quality redundant software systems with very high MTBF rates.
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:18 pm)It’s my 12 pack or 24 pack example. Do I need the 24 pack to get across the football/soccer field or is it easier to take the 12 pack across the football/soccer field if all I need to do is go across the field?
Technically it’s not much savings cuz the weight of a gal of gas is not much. But it does add up if you look at it in the whole year. Besides, my commute is 9.5 miles one way. I can go almost the full week in my 96 Saturn SL2 with that.
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Again in my experience the Prius was more a guy-technology thing. Most people I knew were guys who went from a BMW or Mercedes or Jaguar or something like that to a Prius.
However the question of who drives it may be different. Those guys were married and their wives would drive the car as well. This makes perfect sense since if you want to go to the grocery store and one car gets 18 MPG and one gets 50 MPG which one would you take? (This is why I think EV miles will be a higher percentage of miles driven than just the straight proportion of EV vehicles to all vehicles).
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:22 pm)Good post there.. neither is best, it just depends on your tastes and needs. I am looking forward to never having to change the oil again. In any case the Volt/Cruze will have the neatest way to change the oil.. you open up a box and replace a cartridge.. and you do this from the top of the car. Much neater!.
Our cities will be much cleaner once BEVs are in full swing.. I’m also looking forward to that, and I consider the Volt a BEV.
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:22 pm)If the weather is cold or if you have a lot of humidity and fast temperature drops you’re better keeping the tank full so you don’t have the problem of water precipitating out and fouling the gas line. In most of CA you don’t run into these situations. +1 for CA!
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:25 pm)May I suggest ….
Chill Stick beer quiver holds a six pack, my heart
http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/04/17/chill-stick-beer-quiver-holds-a-six-pack-my-heart/
Saw one of these in action years ago and have wanted one since. Sort of turns you into the “robin hood of the hops” — life of the party, ready for action. (It’s a guy thing — LauraM doesn’t have to like it).
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:27 pm)That’s weak. ANY electric car, BEV or EREV, has to sell in volume to make a difference. No kidding. I’m not talking about a cost comparison or even operating efficiency. I’m talking about the fact that the car is not a practical solution for a lot of people. More problematic, it is also not a solution to MOST of the people ALL of the time. This is the real issue. MOST people will still need a second car to take over the demands the LEAF can not meet.
Are these occasional or routine high mileage folks just “out of luck?” Do they not get to participate in our oil conservation efforts? Are they viewed as immoral and wasteful and shunned by the BEV drivers; not served at the local pubs because they drive an ICE? Would their lifestyle or the fact they have to drive a lot be considered wrong by the BEV drivers? This is a big country with a lot of land to cover and a lot of people.
The fact I support GM is not even an issue here. If the origin of the Volt and LEAF were reversed, I would still have the exact same question.
Of course if the cars were reversed, then we would be sifting through posts decrying GM for selling a BEV100 that requires most people to buy another ICE car as a second. An evil GM plot that would be…
+5
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:31 pm)Ever heard the expression, “when you’re in a hole, it’s best to stop digging?”
You can’t win here by picking on Laura just ‘cuz it’s a guy thing.
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:38 pm)Most of the people already have 2 cars or more. In the U.S. which group is the largest?
1. 1 car household
2. 2 car household
3. 3 car or more household
If you picked #3 then you are correct.
As shown by many in the mini-E blogs, they replace one of their ICE cars with a BEV, and which car gets driven the most?
Yep, BEV. It becomes the primary car. You just whip out the ICE when you have to.
Study Finds Americans Own 2.28 Vehicles Per Household
http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28-Vehicles-Per-Household-26437/
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:41 pm)I don’t usually wade into these anymore, but there could be another factor at play.
Basic driving range by men over women. According the NHT Survery, and backed up by the insurance industry (women pay less in premium despite being in more accidents per million miles drive). Men drive more than 6,000 miles per year than women.
Male: 16,749 (45/day)
Female: 10,174 (27/day)
While you could make a case that men are less likely to have as much range anxiety, their expected driving usage makes the LEAF less likely a ideal candidate to replace what they are driving now over women.
-5
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:42 pm)Too many times people buy their car based on the least occuring event. I hear many times parents claim “I feel safer in a SUV” as they drive away in their Tahoe, Suburban, Expedition or Armada. So they purchased it for the one occurence that may not even happen.
I also hear the same old story “We need a large car just in case soinso wants to bring a friend…..”
Or “If we go to the snoe/ski/snowboard/camping”. All of which they may do it twice that year and some cases do not that year. Some even buy just in case they want to “Tow” something. This is what caused the SUV boom for the US.
Now I’m hearing driving scenarios on why the Volt is better. Because the freeway is crowded? You might have to take a detour? An emergency might be neede where I have to drive past 40 miles, or even 100 miles? All of which is less than 1% of the whole driving year. So you base your choice on something that may or may not happen 1% of the time?, probably even less than that.
I don’t post often but this all sounds like excuses to keep the addiction to gasoline.
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:47 pm)How many times 200+ miles?.. you may be better off with a LEAF and lease a car for those occasions.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (1:52 pm)But doesn’t the extra trips to the gas station make up the difference?
By the way, just out of curiosity, with that kind of commute, have you considered buying a bicycle? It’s great exercise, and you wouldn’t be using any gasoline…
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:01 pm)It is worrysome that the battery temperature gauge is so large and prominent… In the picture is the one on the extreme bottom left, sporting a square battery with a thermometer sticking out.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:04 pm)The difference is the SUV examples are planned events.
The detours and emergencies and crowded highways and power outages etc are all unknowable/unplanned occurances. This is why you need the backup.
The same reason probably everyone here wears seat belts in the car, buys life insurance, and goes to the doctor for checkups. I would imagine being in an accident, or dying has a probability of happening MUCH less than 1 percent. But we still do these preventative and preparatory things.
How is driving a Volt keeping an addiction to gasoline?
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:07 pm)#129
Only two days? Oh, right, at $3 gas and 20 mpg (I’m being generous for a Cheechmobile) , that’s less than 4 miles.
59 cents worth of pure wind power at local power company retail rates gives me 22 consecutive days of commuting, errands and after work off-road recreation racing. Plus, I can’t imagine the inconvenience of having to go out of my way to a special unprotected outside place, posted with warning signs, to stand and twiddle my thumbs for a bit with nothing else that I can do, while I top off. My effective refilling time is ZERO and it occurs at the useful destinations that get my consumer money.
Every now and then, I realize that I’ve adjusted to my ER-0-EV-40 as what’s normal and everything other as potentially deficient. My initial huh? reaction to your post was one of those moments.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:07 pm)I just tell my wife “when the low fuel light comes on we can start looking for a gas station”
Yes I have run out of gas many times.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:12 pm)Also called a grid connected residential solar system with a power pack backup. QED. You’ll be refilling your ER-EV with electrons while sleeping at home when gas stations have no electric power to run their gas pumps and huge lines of cars on fumes are stuck there.
Ok, to be fair, some gas stations are starting to put in solar.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:13 pm)I know a few guys who won’t buy a Prius because it’s a “woman’s car.” So I just sort of took their word for it.
After doing some websearches, I found this. It’s probably not a reputable source, but it’s the best I can do…
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/archive/index.php/www.yourcoolprofile.com/index.php/t-24475.html
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:16 pm)I ran out one time on my way to my brothers house. Just 2 blocks away. That’s when I learned the 96 Saturn SL2 HAS NO WARNING LIGHT…..ugh.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:17 pm)Point taken, but . . . .
I figure it’s one of the most important indicators of how I’m treating the battery. Kind of like how all ICE cars have a temperature gauge on the coolant. I’d much rather have the information to help with the care and feeding of my battery then not know and find out later that I’ve got a battery that has been overheated into an early grave.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:22 pm)Precipitation…I’ve heard of that, what’s it like
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:24 pm)That’s pretty awesome!!! I wonder if they have those at Target or WalMart.
Miss LauraM could still use it for her “Go Girl” drinks. She’d be able to hold more of them too.
http://www.gogirlenergy.com/
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:29 pm)I’ve thought about it. But there’s so much construction going on (been 3yrs) that there’s no place in the strip I drive that’s safe. They’re widening to 4 lanes. I know that’s a copout. I think I’ll try it one time on the weekend for a dry run to see how long it takes.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:33 pm)The ‘beer quiver’ may be more practical for keeping the beers cold and better for smuggling beers into the game but you just can’t beat the ‘Beer Bandolier’ for ‘macho appleal’ http://www.kaboodle.com/reviews/beer-blaster-beer-bandolier
There’s also a version Laura might like:
http://www.kaboodle.com/reviews/desperado-shot-glass-bandolier
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:38 pm)I agree. We all do what we can. And every little bit everyone does helps. Some things just won’t work for some people. And that’s OK.
LOL. I could actually see that.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:38 pm)It’s no news to most posters here that I’m rather annoying.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:38 pm)Dying is not usually a planned event. If you have a Volt or a Leaf and soinso brings a friend, you could drive another car or rent one. If you die because you didn’t get that checkup in time there are no other options.
If you have seven kids and really need that suburban you’ll buy one. If you buy one because of the convenience of doing something twice a year without using another vehicle, there are less expensive ways of handling those two days a year.
What were we talking about, oh yes, 36 gallons of gas per year according to DaveG’s spreadsheet, should be easy to transition to cellulosic ethanol, or another green-range-extending fuel.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:41 pm)It’s not a copout. I ride a bicycle some. But there’s places I won’t ride. I’m not gonna get whacked if I can help it.
BTW, (and not to keep a feud going, … but …)
Did somebody who said :
“And go without AC? Do you have any idea how hot it gets in the summer in New York? There are sacrifices that I’m prepared to make to reduce my oil use, but there are things I’m not willing to sacrifice.”
Also suggest that you ride a bicycle to work?
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:43 pm)Come on!
If your car is in highway traffic and the fuel gauge is pointing to E everyone starts sweating. Is it just touching the E? Is it pointing on the long part of the E letter or is it past the E?
Dont you hate being on Empty and its 5pm and traffic is moving pretty well, you just hate to
pull off the interstate to get gas because any minute its going to be bumper to bumper.
Although even worse is feeling the car start to stutter and run out between exits.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:45 pm)#140
Yeah, have you ever seen the F1 guys crunching the #s on how much fuel to put in the car? They can tell you what the impact of 1 liter of fuel will be on the lap time at any given track.
So that’s why the Volt is fine with the 6 gal. gas tank, or whatever it is. Not to start up the old gas tank argument again, LOL.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:47 pm)New York Hot? Come on! That’s a joke, right?
Dont use your AC, attach a solar fan next to your window for the city.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:47 pm)Yes, bicycles use gasoline. They use human power which requires food which currently uses liquid fuel to plant, maintain, harvest, process and ship. Meat eating bicyclists use much more gasoline (about as much as an efficient hybrid) than vegetarian bicyclists and both use more gasoline, dust to dust per vehicle, than light electric vehicles, such as highway capable electric motorcycles, do. Just eat less to lose weight if you ride electric.
These results have been discussed on this site before.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:48 pm)#146
Good man! +1
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:51 pm)Personally I don’t think so.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:52 pm)If you want a Leaf just wait a year a high percentage of people are going to turn them in for another car. This is all smoke and mirrors, just ask yourself would spend $30,000 D O L L A R S and by an all electric car? The numbers are bogus.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:57 pm)Sh|t, I do it here all the time. Even when it gets 105F or above, all windows (except the one in the back, broke) rolled down. My Saturn’s AC broke 5 years ago. If it get to 108F I just drive w/out my shirt on for my commute home. Got all my manness all over the place but I cope.
First you and Miss LauraM pokin at each other now u 2 gangin up on the fat fool?…. lol.
/yeah the doc said to as well…
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:58 pm)Actually, right now I take the subway. No gas involved. I don’t even own a car. Gas or otherwise.
I’m planning on moving in a couple of years. At which point I’ll probably be about 20-30 miles away from work. I won’t be gas free with a Volt (unless I manage to charge at work, which I doubt.) But it will cut down on my gas use substantially.
But even if I were in biking range–New York gets too cold in the winter. I might ride my bike during the spring and fall. Maybe during the summer. But it wouldn’t be a year round solution.
Jun 16th, 2010 (2:59 pm)I don’t think so either. Most of the time anyway. You make a lot of interesting valid points…
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:00 pm)And to think that the only reason I went electric in the first place was that I could beat current Ninjas and Lamborghinis off the line with it for the same price new as a worse performing gas vehicle. I had absolutely no intention of saving the planet, improving national security, saving operating and maintenance money long term or any of that other malarkey.
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:01 pm)Can anyone advise the michigan dealerships most likely to have Volts for sale?
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:01 pm)I think he was suggesting that I use a bike. Since I suggested it for you…it was a fair statement.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:03 pm)The more exercise you get, the more beer you can drink. It’s a win, win.
beer bike in amsterdam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkulQvz-efw
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:03 pm)#168
You and I must be related, LOL. +1
OMG, I’m glad I checked this site. It reminds me that my the “low fuel” light is on in my S10 and I have to go get gas or I won’t make it home. Bye for now.
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:05 pm)That assumes that most people only eat what they need to maintain their weight, and that any exercise will increase food intake. Cutting calories isn’t that easy…
That said, ICAM about the meat…Especially beef. (Cheese is actually more energy intensive than chicken.)
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:13 pm)i’m screwed….
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:14 pm)During the summer? Yes. Very. I’m not sure what your standards are. But it often reaches high 90s.
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:15 pm)Join the club. I work out at least partially because it lets me eat more. I should have mentioned that in my list of sacrifices I’m not willing to make…
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:34 pm)No, it assumes no such thing. The point was that bicycling uses gasoline. Bicycling as practiced takes human energy to go distance in the real world, a reality of physics in this universe. Food is the only original source of that human energy, a statement of fact, regardless of weight gain or loss. It is the production, processing and distribution, as currently done, of that food that most directly uses liquid fuel.
Cutting calories is as simple as eating less food per day or as complicated as you want to make it. Obviously, many commercial entities hope that you make it very complicated.
Point taken that you already use an efficient EV (subway) for your transportation.
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:41 pm)I hope they return to Yuma in late July/August when the temps are much higher and the humidity levels are up (Monsoon season). I’d love to know the expected electric range under those conditions.
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:45 pm)If memory serves, FWIW the production of beef uses much more water per calorie and causes a much greater loss of topsoil than veggies/grains grown for human consumption…and I assume also versus chicken or pork.
Personally, I’ll take a well seasoned pork tenderloin cooked on the grill over beef any day…but I digress.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:54 pm)So you need some gasoline free food production?
Who ya gonna call?….
Er, Dan Aykroyd on an EV tractor.
What’s next, Director James Cameron and movie star Kevin Costner saving the Gulf Coast from future oil spills?
I swear, reality is weirder than fiction. And who knew that famous film stars and Hollywood types weren’t completely useless in real life?
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:56 pm)But if you eat the food anyway, and put on weight, you’re consuming just as much energy. Actually, more since, theoretically at least, it will decrease the mpg of any car you ride in afterward.
Are you suggesting I need to stop working out to reduce my carbon footprint?
Jun 16th, 2010 (3:57 pm)I did not see any evaluation of low “e” window glass. Perhaps GM did not use this technological breakthrough to reduce AC loads?? Or maybe they evaluated the windows and concluded the extra initial cost did not result in significant range extension due to less AC load. It would be nice to have this addressed when discussing “hot weather testing.”
Jun 16th, 2010 (4:24 pm)The point was that bicycling uses gasoline. Specifically in bicycling, humans use food energy that bicycling actually uses to go distance, and liquid fuel is currently used in food production, processing and distribution for the food energy that bicycling actually uses.
That bicycling currently uses gasoline, which it currently does, as consistently described three times, has nothing to do with weight and nothing to do with cars. Consider those to be separate topics from the fact that bicycling uses gasoline and you’ll be correct.
I am not suggesting and have not suggested that you need to stop working out, and have nary a thought about your “carbon footprint.”
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (4:28 pm)Good to see the VOLT being put through the HOT Weather testing stages. Please post Cold Weather info when you know more Lyle, thx!
Hopefully no one mistakes that trailer for the pull along generator!
No LEAF news? Ok, off to Statik’s site…
GO EV!!!!
Jun 16th, 2010 (4:29 pm)In this test the Volt is baked all day on black top pavement in direct sunlight and 96 degree temperatures. Lead durability test engineer Steve Pratt measured
the interior air temperature of the car at 138 degrees. He went on to check for squeaks and rattles that might be created by the heat, both while standing
and driving, and finds none.
I really am glad to hear that GM is designing to help eliminate those annoying squeaks and rattles that get on my nerves. I usually end up stuffing pieces of used wiper blades into crevices where these noises come from. I wonder if those new noise canceling systems would eliminate those frequency ranges as well.
Jun 16th, 2010 (4:34 pm)Just a guess/opinion, but I would expect that the dealerships nearest the GM Tech Center (in Warren) would be the most likely ones. Or maybe I am biased in thinking that way? Of course this is also quite near the factory, not that this matters all that much (unless you could pick up your car at the factory, how cool would that be?).
I was going to post something about, “What makes you think hot weather would decrease the Volt’s range?”, until I started seeing the mention of A/C. Oops, forgot about that. I’m one of those few people who hates A/C, I only use it the smallest amount when the heat is unbearable. For the most part I roll down the windows and tough it out. It’s not so much a “green” thing, I simply hate cold air blowing on me. It also makes the arthritis in my neck ache. So at the end of the day in the summer it actually feels good to get out of the a/c’d office and into my nice, hot car!
Oh and up to a reasonable point (120F perhaps?), heat actually makes lipos work better. The bad news is that it can hurt the overall lifetime of the cells. So with the A/C kept off, the range under hot desert conditions would probably be greater than in cooler conditions. People doing r/c electric drag racing (whether cars, boats, whatever) actually pre-heat their lipo batteries for maximum performance.
Jun 16th, 2010 (4:49 pm)It is amzing to hear from folks in US ..I want to fit in 5 people, want head room for 6′ plus people , want to tow 2000lbs & on on wants …spoiled nation with all its wants .. but no responsibility or scarifice to do the needed stuff for environment …Just look at the oil spill in Gulf ..Drill baby Drill bunch of spoiled rotten nation …all wants …lol As I said European/Asians will jump start the electric revolution not the US …
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (4:54 pm)Beef is much much worse than pork. It’s the most energy intensive food you can eat. It uses more water/topsoil/energy than any other food by a huge margin. And, if you believe in global warming (which I do), beef production is responsible for more greenhouse gases than the entire transportation sector.
But chicken and turkey are better than pork. And veggie/grains are better still.
Jun 16th, 2010 (5:02 pm)And my point is that the food would, in most cases, be consumed anyway. Do you think we’re worse off if someone bikes to work rather than buys an EV, takes it to work, and then goes to the gym, and worked off the same number of calories there?
I know. I was trying to make a point. In the US (and most developed countries), most people need to work out more. Not less. Most people consume more calories than they burn. So increasing calorie burn would be a good thing,IMHO.
You’re right in that oil is the ultimate source of the fuel. But my point is that if bikes become more popular, it won’t add to our gasoline addiction.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (5:04 pm)Thanks ziv. I work in Tysons and so that is quite convenient! As stated before, I’m not 100 percent sure on the Volt (especially with a second child coming relatively soon and only 4 seats) but sometimes in life you really need to put your money where your mouth is and when it comes time to reduce my carbon footprint I need to put up or shut up.
Be well and thanks again.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (5:10 pm)The Leaf will work for thousands of people. Best of luck to them. It’s not for me.
I may buy a Volt for my wife. Just don’t know if I can accept the fact that the car WILL be damaged. She dents and misaligns each car she owns.
My truck has a narly door dent and my spare tire rim is bent. Guess how this happened. May just bite the bullet and buy a Volt for her. This way I keep my truck a few years and am able to drive the Volt a couple days a week. I know she will fall in love with the Volt. And brag about it to her 100 girlfriends. This will clear the way for an EREV truck for myself in 2014.
It will hurt to watch the Volt get beat up. But the long term pay off is worth it.
=D-Volt
BTW: We know each other very well. She would run out of charge with the Leaf at least once a month. Then it would be MY fault for buying it for her.
Jun 16th, 2010 (5:26 pm)A serious question deserves at least a try at a serious answer.
For 2010-2012 the answer is not one or the other, because the question for any one person is whether either one is available. Very few people will have a choice — there are not that many being made. The comparison is between either and none at all.
Jumping forward another 5 years, one hopes to see a choice. If so, EREV is a better design, in that it is more flexible, but that backup ICE may increase cost. If so, BEV100 is a simpler car to build and fix.
But then again EREV may make the vehicle cheaper and allow long trips, which are essential some of the time. So I think the question becomes one of the economics of production and convenience of refueling, not choice by ideological outlook.
The fact is that most people most of the time go fewer than 40 miles in a day, so it does not take a lot of battery capability to cover most of transportation. The issue is how to provide for the exceptional days when more is required. I don’t think we can know the answer to that yet.
Jun 16th, 2010 (5:41 pm)130 Schmeltz said:
It will be interesting to watch in the coming year how the EV competition plays out.
I worked on 70s era jet fighters, and a car that has to charge 12 hours to drive 2 or 3 hours, sounds more like an old jet fighter that needed 6 hours of maintenance for every hour flown.
Jun 16th, 2010 (5:43 pm)Why would a light EV motorcycle rider overeat compared to a bicyclist, in general (most cases)? Are you sure that’s a correct assertion? After all, they are both known for active riding, where the same extra pounds is probably a similar penalty in relative performance.
Jun 16th, 2010 (5:58 pm)I was talking about the LEAF. And I’m pretty sure many LEAF owners will be overweight. Just going by the numbers.
About the EV motorcyclists–they probably work out at the gym. Or at least some of them do. I don’t see the difference between working out at the gym, and combining your workout with your transportation.
What about walking? Should we all buy electric wheelchairs because walking uses too much fossil fuel?
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:05 pm)I agree. I don’t think the Leaf has the ground clearance to drive over Women
SUVs are far better for this.
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:05 pm)Fantastic! I’m so excited at the prospects of having a Volt in my driveway 2-3 years down the road when the opportunity to purchase one comes my way.
I live in SW Florida and the humidity here during the summer months is awesome. Hope GM has time to do some testing in this climate before going into production.
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:14 pm)#200
Well said. +1 We would all do well to take heed of your words.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:14 pm)GM is testing this car maybe a little more than the average GM introduction … but I’ve watched a few cars being developed by GM and saw mostly the same testing. The Milford proving grounds is the largest in the world with 126 miles of test track alone… not to mention all the other testing that is done there. Ford and Chrylser also have proving grounds that do a lot of testing. I’ve owned all three FORD GM and Chrysler vehicles in the last 35 years and I’ve settled on GM because of the all around quality.. My Fords had nicer interiors… the Chrysler had a really nice engine and body… but for all over quality I’ve found my Buicks to be the best … but I still say my 84 Caprice was the best car I’ve ever owned. The only thing that runs better than a V8 is the electric driveline.
I liked the 305V8 for it’s effortless power and good fuel economy (26mpg fully loaded on trips).
The electric driveline of the EV1 was the only vehicle that I’ve driven that was better than the V8.
The no shifting is the best… effortless smooth power… I’ll buy a Volt if I can get my hands on one.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:21 pm)#202
True that. +1
Many have said that GM’s very public development of the Volt forced Nissan’s hand into bringing forward The LEAF. My hope is that the Volt is so successful that it forces Nissan to build an EREV, and that the LEAF is so successful that it forces GM to build a BEV. And, I hope that the rest of the industry is forced into following suit. As your comment correctly points out, there is a place for both.
-2
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:27 pm)#197
Alas, there is great truth in what you are saying. +1
As I read these thoughtful comments, I am getting a strong sense that someone, somewhere is trying to send us a message. “Keep ruining my Earth, and I will destroy you all.” It’s not for nothing that God reputedly told Noah, “This time it’s the water, it’s the fire next time”.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:30 pm)#206
LOL. Literally. +1
I usually disapprove of grammar/spelling/typo corrections, but that’s funny.
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:31 pm)OT
Very interesting article from MIT Technology Review here:
Ford’s Plan to Hedge on Hybrids
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25540/page1/
Looks like Ford’s planning on the ultimate “pick a drive train, any drive train” assembly line process. (there’s a note in there that Toyota’s doing the same).
/This, to me, sounds very difficult to pull off. The engineering load on each car would have to be high. But if they can make it work, great production flexibility (in a world of fluctuating fuel prices/ govt policies) and profits should result.
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:32 pm)I’m no bible expert. But I thought the rainbow was God’s promise to Noah never to destroy every living thing again?
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:39 pm)That was God’s promise. BP hasn’t put up any rainbows.
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:45 pm)#214
Well I’m not either, the furthest thing from it, LOL. So I’m happy to be corrected if I’ve got it wrong. I am quoting from Bruce Springsteen’s rendition of “Oh Mary don’t you weep don’t you mourn” on the “Seeger Sessions” CD, not the Bible. He does actually refer to the rainbow. I can’t quote it exactly, but I heard something like “God told Noah at the rainbow’s sign, this time it’s the water, it’s the fire next time”. It certainly leaped out of the speakers at me.
Anyway, if I were God, and I had made that promise to Noah, subsequent events might lead me to reconsider.
-2
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:46 pm)Laura M- “About the EV motorcyclists–they probably work out at the gym. Or at least some of them do. I don’t see the difference between working out at the gym, and combining your workout with your transportation. ”
Your assumptions and assertions are piling up rather quickly, rather than getting less.
Compare professional EV motorcycle rider physiques here:
http://www.egrandprix.com/
and here
http://www.minimotosx.com/
and here:
http://www.killacycle.com/
to this:
and other 5,000 calorie a day skeletors like Lance A., Levi L., George H. et. al.
Sure, some EV motorcyclists work out, but no way do they go through 5,000 calories a day plus look like skeletors, so yes, there’s a large difference in the food amount.
Of course walking does use more gasoline than electric wheelchairs, but for very short distances, the amount is probably not huge, as opposed to daily commutes.
I never said not to bicycle, I simply pointed out the fact that it uses more gasoline than highway capable electric motorcycles do. I also never said to base your decisions in life on what uses less gasoline.
The reason I use an EV is maximum torque from 0 rpm, instant, smooth, strong, linear acceleration available at any moment and luxury quiet, none of which gasoline offers me by pure coincidence. Feel free to do whatever makes you happy.
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:47 pm)#215
Thank you. +1
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:56 pm)What an idiot you are….the only things Europe has ever “jump started” are war, hatred, communism, socialism, repression, arrogance and misery. The only reason Europe even still exists is because of the generosity of the US. We had been purchasing most of your products for decades….because for many years, we were the only country that could afford to. Your folks were too busy rebuilding from all of the wars that we had to help you end. Innovation has always been an American strong point. Furthermore, except for the British Land Rover, I cant think of any European automobile that could survive the beating that GM is giving to those test Volts. GM is back on track. I can hardly believe it myself…but the quality of this product is going to be better than “World Class”….it’s going to be “American Class”. I cant wait for MY Volt!
Go Volt! Go GM!
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (6:59 pm)Impressive. However, I believe there are even better ways to scare up dates
-2
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:00 pm)More from Technology Review:
“As a first step in its strategy, Ford has announced that an assembly line in Michigan that currently produces the Ford Focus will also produce an electric version of the car starting next year, and hybrid and plug-in hybrid versions in 2012. (Plug-in hybrids, like hybrids, have both electric motors and gas-power engines, but they also have larger batteries that can be recharged via a normal electrical outlet.) While other automakers, including Ford, have in the past converted conventional cars models to hybrids, Ford plans to do this on a wider scale, making it an option for more than 10 different models; and it plans to include plug-in hybrid and electric options as well.”
10 different models whose production line can be swtiched from/to:
1. ICE
2. Hybrid
…and depending on how your read it
3. Plug in Hybrid
4. BEV
.. holy crap, that’s like the Big Bob’s Buffet of auto manufacturing, .. too many choices
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25540/page1/
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:27 pm)If you have an emergency and are stuck because your car isn’t up to the job how comforting is it that it’s the first time it happened this year? Oh sure, being prepared can be carried to an extreme, but the unexpected happens pretty often for some. Detours and delays seem too common where I drive. Sometimes I take an alternate route to avoid construction delays only to find another construction delay on the alternate route. I didn’t expect to spend a whole day last week playing traveling rescue mechanic to a hysterical family member with car trouble, no mechanical aptitude, and no money. Took me all day running around, crawling under an unfamiliar car, etc. Last straw might have been having to wait for my car to recharge. Some of us actually buy what we need and use it.
+2
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:36 pm)Today I called a large Chevrolet dealer in Houston to ask about registering for a VOLT. The saleman indicated that they will/plan to start taking deposits on JULY 1, 2010 for VOLTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’ll be first in-line.
Glen
-1
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:41 pm)carcus3 said:
10 different models whose production line can be swtiched from/to:
1. ICE
2. Hybrid
…and depending on how your read it
3. Plug in Hybrid
4. BEV
.. holy crap, that’s like the Big Bob’s Buffet of auto manufacturing, .. too many choices
Sounds like Ford has zero commitment to anything.
-10
Jun 16th, 2010 (7:48 pm)(click to show comment)
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:01 pm)What if you’re in your Aveo and your spouse broke down with the van with 6 kids going to a field trip. How useful is your gas burner?
What if you truck breaks down on the way home with your brand new Samsung or Kenmore appliances. How useful is your Aveo gas burner? Sure leave your wife’s new appliances on the side of the road so I can come get them.
You can make up any stupid reason why an EV won’t work for you. But only if you don’t want to try.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:24 pm)Pat Pat Pat.
I have 5 in the family. Who should I leave home.
I am 6′ 2, 250, Do I deserve head and leg room.
I have to support the scouts. they often need to tow something.
The most egregious comment is the thought that the Euro’s and tbe Asians will lead the way to electrification. They have had high gas prices for years. Where are their Electric cars???? They should have had them for years under their conditions and they do not. They have had their chance to lead. They failed. Now an American company is leading the way.
Go GM.
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:46 pm)Yeah leave it to the British (BP) to F-it-up. Now we have to clean up the mess. The Euro trash needed to be bailed out in WW1, WW2, the cold war, and now the Green Revolution. Every meaningful invention up to, and including the Volt came out of America. Your football is great if you are a 5 year old. Your teeth? Let’s just say “keep a stiff upper lip” means to cover up the decay. EREV is technology for the masses. It will lead the world out of the Middle East. I guess if you look at it closely, GM is saving Europe.
Jun 16th, 2010 (8:52 pm)Not to be a party-pooper, but.. you’re amazed when something works as designed?
I mean, that IS an engineer’s job, no?
You should only be amazed when something far exceeds expectations. This is just saying the car is working as designed and passes GM’s tests..
But maybe that’s just me and I don’t understand the whole “made in america” pride that tends to blind people..
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:39 pm)Now I’m curious. I’m going to ask a friend who knows a lot more than I do about these things…
God doesn’t need to destroy the earth or destroy every living thing. As Carcus pointed out–we’re doing a pretty good job of it ourselves. All God has to do is sit back and watch.
I wouldn’t rely on him to bail us out though.
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:42 pm)Also watch how stations price. They will either price using the current price to refill their tank or use the price they paid to fill the tank. When the price is rising, you want to visit the stations that look back, when falling you want the ones that adjust daily.
The small independent stations with lower volumes tend to use the price they paid. I’ve seen as much as 25 cents difference.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:45 pm)Turns out that Noel is pretty much correct, and you don’t have to be a Bible expert, you just have to look it up.
Genesis 9:11, 13 “Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” “I set my rainbow in the cloud and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.”
The other part comes from the other end of the Bible: 2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” (Some people think this could be a nuclear Armageddon.)
So anyway, more correctly, Bruce Springsteen had it pretty close.
Back on topic, I guess that would be the ultimate “hot weather testing.”
Jun 16th, 2010 (9:54 pm)I used to be that way but I’m much less so now.
For me it was the big NE blackout. I remember leaving work listening to the reporting on the blackout on the radio and noting that I did not have enough gas to make it home. If the NW was blacked out instead, I would have been stranded. I decided that wasn’t a good place and now I won’t let the tank get to where I can’t make a round trip on what is in the tank.
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:07 pm)Neither do I. The phrase was a pet peeve, that’s all.
+4
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:32 pm)Oh for…. I’m an American, and I love my country. I really and truly do. And I really hate defending Europe at this point. But I hate when Europeans blame all the problems of the world on America. Which is ridiculous, IMHO. But I certainly don’t think its fair for us to blame everything on Europe either.
Western Civilization started in Europe. The good, the bad, and everything in between. Isaac Newton. Copernicus. Galileo. Louis Pasteur. Etc. The Industrial revolution started in Britain. Not the United States. France invented the metric system, which is much better than the British imperial system that we still use. And without Europe, the area we currently consider the United States of America would be settled by American Indians. And it would be a totally different country. It might be a better one. It might be worse. But it would be completely different.
No country or civilization is all good or all bad. Each one has it’s strengths and its weaknesses. And the most successful civilizations are the ones that learn from all the others. And combine the best ideas of each one. Like we used to.
-1
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:41 pm)Are you implying it makes more sense to just sell the car and let the customers test the environmental performance? Doesn’t sound like a good idea to me. Doesn’t strike me as ethical or efficient either.
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:45 pm)For the record, BP is almost as much an American company as it is a British company. They merged with Amoco in 1998. Americans own 39% of the shares. British people own 40%. Not a huge difference. And there are Americans on the board of directors.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:51 pm)The United States has a 700 billion dollar trade deficit. If we don’t produce something, we are on our way to economic irrelevance. So, if we want to maintain our way of life (or something as close to it as possible) we need to support our own manufacturing.
Canada, on the other hand, has enough natural resources relative to your population that you don’t really need manufacturing. Not the way we do in the United States anyway.
As far as pride–it’s kind of like rooting for your team at the Olympics. We want the American team to win. And, in this case, we actually have something riding on the outcome.
+1
Jun 16th, 2010 (10:52 pm)Thanks. I know it was completely off topic, but I was curious. I tried a google search, but I didn’t find anything….
+3
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:08 pm)Not everyone is making up reasons and not everyone whose needs aren’t met by the current performance of BEVs is stupid.
Jun 16th, 2010 (11:28 pm)Thief in the night?.. Carbonaceous Asteroid is what they are talking about, black as sin and big enough to crack the earth’s crust. At least you can stop worrying about CO2.
+2
Jun 17th, 2010 (12:00 am)I just got in and said wow, 200+ comments on a little dust in Arizona? Looks like a cow was the cause of the WOT stuff. The guy thing of running out of gas and getting the wife slap on the back of the head helped too.
LauraM has thrown a lot of much needed common sense into the conversations today. Thanks, the reading was enjoyable.
Now, the battery in heat.
It wasn’t too long ago that Andrew and Pam answered questions on cold weather performance. Andrew volunteered the info that low temps affect performance and high temps affect longevity.
I remembered this when I drove the Volt in NY. I asked about the battery in hot weather and was directed to a young lady that knew. She was a part of the hybrid Tahoe testing and read quite a bit of data on the death valley testing of the Volt battery.
What testing? I thought, but didn’t say. The amount of data available was enormous, she agreed. The batteries themselves performed flawlessly as part of the conditioning system.
So now I see one more of the Volt GM Joes on film, checking up on another round of testing and realized:
This is actually the third round of validation for the Volt critical components. The interior temperature check for the Volt was to make sure that the battery was isolated from the passengers, not the sun creating an unwanted greenhouse. So, since high temps take a toll on battery longevity, at what temp does degradation begin? Does the Volt need to be plugged in to keep cool the same as it does to keep warm? I haven’t seen any cause for alarm nor have I seen the engineers heading off any concerns on the heat stuff. Can the Volt really be this good?
My respect for this car and the engineering team is increasing with every month that comes closer to production. What a contrast to the Leaf!
Jun 17th, 2010 (1:44 am)I wish GM would heat test these cars in Houston. Sure the a/c works fine in the dry heat of Arizona, but out of a dozen or so new cars, few have systems that can cool down the humid air of the Texas Gulf Coast rapidly.
Probably the best a/c I’ve ever had is in my Daewoo built Aveo. And it gets 35 mpg on the highway. The Volt is going to be a good car, but I hope the charge sustaining mpg is better than 35 mpg.
-2
Jun 17th, 2010 (3:38 am)To those who are complaining about the oil spill now ..are short sighted & dont remember past …In their drive to up the profits at any cost ..Look around US spread the housing crsis around the world ..wall st derivatives & greed ..[ofcourse we should have been cafreful buy any stuff from Wall st] , bank mortgage crisis & give $$ to anyone who walks into the bank ..NO oversight on any buisness Toys Tainted Food, SEC, No Oil drilling oversight NONE Booosh left quite a legacy for this nation ..& now US is paying the price ..as usual the spoiled nation whine about the disaster but did not do what needed to be done US cud have learned something from Oil spill in Alaska ..US has become a nation of whiners, wants I want I want I need I need this…These folks in MS AL want it in all ways ..they were dependent on oil & fishing ..with minimal oversight it was bound to happen Just a Q of time ..Now all the cry babies pile up on BP .. US is the only nation with so cheap oil so consumption is high ..BEV will not flourish in US with idiots of wants & whiners ..Only time will tell How successful Leaf will be ..
+1
Jun 17th, 2010 (5:29 am)Pat, we really suck. That’s why everyone is trying to get into the U.S. My guess is that you were turned away and are bitter. There is all kinds of innovation in the U.S. in the areas of Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Nuclear, Hydrogen, Battery and more. Our farmers produce they highest yields and we enjoy the bounty they produce to excess. You’re right we want it all ways and always, that’s why this is America. And yes we whine, but its only for exercise!
+2
Jun 17th, 2010 (6:27 am)I say this as a proud American…sure there is innovation in all the areas you mentioned but we are America and we should lead the world in all of these and we are leading in none of them from a usage basis (based on percentage) nor from a manufacturing point of view.
Off the top of my head (and my memory could be faulty) but Germany leads the world in Solar installations (again on percentage of generation basis) and they have the average insolation of Seattle! As for manufacturing solar panels, I believe China is the leader.
Leader in usage for wind, I believe, is Spain. Leader in usage for nuclear, I believe, is France. Leader in usage for geothermal is, I believe, Iceland. And we are not even close to any of these leaders in either usage or manufacturing.
So, yeah, be proud of our history but when it comes to the next generation of energy which is, as Tom Friedman calls it, the new ET economy we are way behind. Sadly, it is largely because of people in my party (Republican) and with my general political bent (conservative). And that is something I’m not proud of.
Jun 17th, 2010 (6:41 am)Usually for this chemistry anything above room temp speeds up the degradation, lower slows it down.. its a chemical reaction that continuously ages the battery.. the most it could take is about 130 F. The LEAF can probably take more at the expense of heavier batteries.
If you keep the Volt plugged in it should air condition the battery, and since its insulated it wont take much energy to keep it cool.
Jun 17th, 2010 (6:42 am)GM is doing that already with the Volt. It is made on the same production line with Buicks and Cadillacs. How’s that for the ultimate in flexibility? You can see in the pictures of the first Volt off the line that there are Buicks in front and behind the Volt.
Jun 17th, 2010 (7:01 am)LOL – you mean because you haven’t read about Nissan testing the Leaf you assume they haven’t tested it? Or because you believe there’s only 4 pre-production Leaf cars (as incorrectly stated in the other article) even though dozens have been road and crash tested.
Jun 17th, 2010 (7:04 am)Speaking of heat, isn’t the Leaf’s battery, which from what I understand, gets warm under heavy load, located under the seat, inside the cabin? It should be interesting having seat heaters in the summertime.
Jun 17th, 2010 (7:30 am)By the time I got to this thread, it had 250 comments (which I’m not going to read now), so sorry for inevitable duplication:
Good news for the Deep South!!!
I’m left wondering about effects of heat on battery pack longevity, and if these tests would reveal any?
+1
Jun 17th, 2010 (7:36 am)I just read every post from top to bottom.. Took me 3 hours.
Jun 17th, 2010 (7:43 am)I always thought they should circulate cabin air inside the battery case.. but they probably wont do that in case a cell vents.
Jun 17th, 2010 (10:23 am)#230
Exactly. +1 Although I fear that, if we irritate Him enough, He may expedite our extinction somewhat. He has been reputed to have done similar things in the past.
I did look it up. Wikipedia has an interesting comment:
“The spiritual’s lyric ‘God gave Noah the rainbow sign, no more water the fire next time’ inspired the title for ‘The Fire Next Time’, James Baldwin’s 1963 account of race relations in America.
We had sung the song in elementary school many(!) years ago, but I only made the connections when I heard the Springsteen version recently. I am not a big Springsteen fan, but it is a really good CD. Can you imagine Bruce and his friends doing “The Erie Canal”, for example?
Jun 17th, 2010 (10:25 am)I always figured Peter was referring to when the sun inevitably goes into super nova….but an asteroid works too. Dude was way ahead of his time (although the Greeks or Egyptians may have already figured it out too)….maybe that’s why Galileo got in trouble, he was stealing ideas from Peter.
Jun 17th, 2010 (10:26 am)#232
Thank you. +1
Jun 17th, 2010 (8:45 pm)The temp sounds about right. It explains the apparent lack of concern from Phil when looking at the interior temps of the Volt!
Time will tell, huh.
Jun 23rd, 2010 (11:11 pm)Earlier than this small water heater was installed beneath my lavatory sink, I needed to run 2 gallons to get sizzling water. Now I’ve scorching water instantly…and the value at Amazon was cheaper than anyplace else.