Jun 12

Nissan Reports LEAF Range Will Vary From 47 to 138 Miles

 


[ad#post_ad]As someone who has spent the last year driving a pure electric MINI E across wide temperature and speed variations, I can tell you real world electric range varies considerably.

Like the MINI E, the LEAF too has an air-cooled battery, only it has 24 kwh (19.2 kwh usable) of energy as opposed to the MINI E’s 35 kwh (28 kwh usable).

Up to this point in the PR cycle, Nissan has simply said one could expect 100 miles of range on a fully charged battery while driving a leisurely LA4 cycle. However, this week the company has opened up media test drives of pre production prototypes in Japan. Along with releasing to the world the pedestrian alert sounds the car will make at low speeds, Nissan has also briefed journalists in some detail what real-world ranges drivers could expect to achieve in several scenarios.

Forbes reports this information as follows:

1. At perfect 68 degree Fahrenheit temperature and steady-state flat-course 38 mph, the car could achieve 138 miles of range.

2. Moderate temperature at 24 mph suburban driving, 105 miles of range.

3. Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range

4. Highway driving at 55 mph in 95 degree heat with A/C on, 70 miles

5. Cold weather (14 degrees F) city driving, 62 miles of range

It was added that Nissan claims other power demanding devices such as the radio, the windshield wipers, and the heated seats will have negligible effect on range.

The scenario not included here is my typical commute, which is 65 mph+ highway driving in winter below freezing. With the MINI E my range in that scenario was about 50 to 55 miles. I’d suspect similar performance for the LEAF. Though the battery is smaller presumably the car is more aerodynamic.  The MINI E weighs 3230 pounds, and the LEAF is believed to weigh 3500 pounds.  The MINI E does 0 to 60 in about 8 seconds, the LEAF will likely be slower.

It is known three key factors most significantly affect electric car range; terrain, temperature, and driving technique.

Source (Forbes)
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This entry was posted on Saturday, June 12th, 2010 at 8:25 am and is filed under BEV, Competitors, Performance. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 165


  1. 1
    kdawg

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:31 am)

    Yikes! That seems like a bigger range than your Mini, Lyle. Do you have all the specific numbers?

    Again.. huge ranges like this only intensify range anxiety.

    (I think this line “4. Highway driving at 55 mpg in 95 degree heat with A/C on, 70 miles” was suppose to read “55mph”)


  2. 2
    pdt

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:33 am)

    EREV for me.


  3. 3
    Schmeltz

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:36 am)

    Wow…47 miles range in some circumstances. And to think, people de-cry the Volt’s “low” range of 30-40 miles?!

    The Volt is looking like a better proposition every day.


  4. 4
    Dave K.

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:42 am)

    Bravo Nissan. Thank you for being up front with realistic expectations. The Leaf will work out fine for thousands of owners.

    =D-Volt


  5. 5
    kdawg

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:44 am)

    kdawg: Yikes! That seems like a bigger range than your Mini, Lyle. Do you have all the specific numbers?Again.. huge ranges like this only intensify range anxiety.(I think this line “4. Highway driving at 55 mpg in 95 degree heat with A/C on, 70 miles” was suppose to read “55mph”)  (Quote)

    Sorry, by “range” I meant the range in ranges. I should have used “difference in range”


  6. 6
    Steve Martin

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:44 am)

    Wow, why such a big difference between #3 and #4:

    3. Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range

    4. Highway driving at 55 mpg in 95 degree heat with A/C on, 70 miles


  7. 7
    MICHIGAN GUY

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:46 am)

    Why all this LEAF news on the Volt website? Aren’t we dedicated to the best technology and the most sensible solution to our transportation problems, while at the same time keeping our fellow taxpaying AMERICAN workers employed?

    The LEAF will initially be made in Japan. Every dollar we ship overseas is lost forever, no taxes are paid, and our economy suffers even more.

    To make matters worse, our Federal government is going to give away $7500 of our tax money as incentive to buy a foreign made car. This is an outrage, especially at a time when so many of our fellow citizens are unemployed and hurting badly.

    PLEASE don’t participate in this madness. I urge anyone wanting to drive an electric vehicle to wait for the range-extended Chevrolet Volt. No worries about running out of battery power. Just drive as usual – anytime, anywhere. It IS the superior technology. It is the solution to America’s driving needs.

    And it is designed and made in AMERICA by American taxpaying workers who buy houses and shop in America with their money, further boosting OUR economy, and helping other Americans to become or stay employed.


  8. 8
    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:50 am)

    This is what killed the electric car and proves GM is on the right track. The last time I checked, no one I work with in Wisconsin has a drive to work on a flat road. And while there are days at 68F, winters are cold and summers are hot. Based on actually reading what a LA4 cycle test is, I suspect the masses would be closer to the 47-60 mile range. No wonder Nissan is questioning buyers and trying to hand pick them. I suspect they are hoping to sell only the Environmentalist or similar minded people that will baby the car and try to wring every mile out of the battery. You know the guy, the one that will keep the A/C off and windows rolled up (don’t wanna mess up the aerodynamics) on a hot day. Hold the speed at optimum 38mph on the highway in the right lane. And tell everyone at work how he is getting 120 miles per charge versus the 100. Nissan wants these people first. Then they hope battery technology moves forward, so that in a few years they can let the average person buy the Leaf 2.0 or 3.0. Let’s face it, if Joe Six-Pack sees a marketing ad and buys the Leaf, he will use the A/C and heater. He will drive normal and then find out that he is stranded. Nissan could not handle the bad publicity. Someone would claim false advertising and it would get ugly. GM has it exactly right. EV 40 miles might turn into EV25 miles, but nobody is getting stranded. Nobody is getting hurt!


  9. 9
    Nelson

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:55 am)

    I would imagine the worst case driving scenario for battery depletion would be night-time highway driving (60 mph) on a cold rainy night in December (35 degrees F).
    1. Car lights on.
    2. Wipers on.
    3. Heat/Defog front and rear windows
    4. Passenger heating
    With those conditions the car would probably last 40 minutes = 40 miles.
    Better get AAA, towing is expensive.

    I want my Volt.

    NPNS!
    151 Days and counting.


  10. 10
    Jason

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:57 am)

    Creepy variations in range! You’ve gotta wonder about the big EV markets such as CA. They experience months of triple digit heat and heavily congested roadways. Seems like those conditions severely diminish the range of the LEAF. It is in the best interest of everyone for this information to be disclosed. Nissan would suffer badly if people expect 100 miles but get only 40. The EV market would suffer a major setback as a result and continue to be branded as a bunch of glorified golf carts.


  11. 11
    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    Dave K.: Bravo Nissan. Thank you for being up front with realistic expectations. The Leaf will work out fine for thousands of owners.=D-Volt  

    I fully agree. The Leaf will work for thousands. About 5,000-9,000. We have a lady that lives next door in her early 70s and drives about 4 times a week and never drives more than 20 miles in a day. I told her to dump her Ford Focus and buy a Leaf, she will never buy gas again.


  12. 12
    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    With specs like that, I’m just about sold on getting one: The Mini-E, not the Leaf.

    The Mini-E is a better looking car. Sure, it has less utility than a Leaf, but I drive alone 99.99% of the time. The final question of course is Price?

    Unless the economy, and sales, gets a whole lot better real soon, I can’t justify spending more than $27,000 for a car just for myself.


  13. 13
    RB

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:03 am)

    1 kdawg: Again.. huge ranges like this only intensify range anxiety.

    For me, these mile ranges will be fine. “Range anxiety” will be a function of good metering — a good estimate of charge and likely miles — that are still “in the tank.” [The words will remain long after the function of the tank is gone :) ] With good metering I’m not expecting any more range anxiety with the Leaf than with my Silverado truck.


  14. 14
    Red HHR

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:05 am)

    The Volt

    MICHIGAN GUY: And it is designed and made in AMERICA by American taxpaying workers who buy houses and shop in America with their money, further boosting OUR economy, and helping other Americans to become or stay employed.

    24 days to End-Dependence Day
    What are we going to do for celebration? Can we celebrate? Sure a Leaf could work for me (If painted Red) but I would like the American option.

    If running End-Dependence Day In addition to the Volt, I would invite MotoCzysz E1pc for one.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/11/mark-miller-wins-tt-zero-on-awesome-motoczysz-e1pc-w-video/
    Any other options?

    Cheers


  15. 15
    RB

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:15 am)

    7 MICHIGAN GUY: PLEASE don’t participate in this madness. I urge anyone wanting to drive an electric vehicle to wait for the range-extended Chevrolet Volt

    It works both ways. If general motors wants to have customers here in north carolina, they have to sell Volts in north carolina. If general motors chooses not do so, we will buy Leafs, which will be made in our neighboring state of Tennessee.


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    john1701a

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:16 am)

    Schmeltz: The Volt is looking like a better proposition every day.

    Actually, it’s a good endorsement for any kind of plug-in hybrid.

    If your driving circumstances meet ideal criteria, your MPG will be extremely high. If not, you’ll still see an efficiency boost from having a plug.

    YMMV spans an even greater range when there’s a kWh capacity involved.


  17. 17
    nuclearboy

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:17 am)

    RB: With good metering I’m not expecting any more range anxiety with the Leaf than with my Silverado truck.

    I can easily see that range anxiety will not be a bother by your definition of it. Good metering will result in knowing exactly how far you can go and as long as you don’t try to bring it in at 99.99% dead, you should have little anxiety.

    The problem is, you just cannot go where you want to go on short notice and that is a real serious draw back for a car of this cost. Many people have to run extra errands or drop a friend off unexpectedly and with this car, many of those things just cannot be done. That significantly reduces the utility of this thing. People don’t buy cars for what they generally need each day. People buy cars for what they occasionally might need on some days. Many people commute in trucks/vans/or SUVs because they occasionally need to haul crap/haul a group of people/or go off road.

    If the world was interested in cars that were good enough for most of the time, we could all drive two seat cars with 35 HP engines. As we infer from sales figures, people tend to buy what they might need, not what they usually need.


  18. 18
    Engineering Student

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:20 am)

    Let me get this straight. The Nissan LEAF at its very worst gets 7 more miles of range than the Chevy Volt at its best. And the Volt costs much less to boot.

    Everybody this is a no brainer. The Volt wins hands down. Its battery just appears to be much much better than the battery in the Volt.

    I am seriously considering purchase.
    The Volt would have to be prices far less than the Leaf to get my money.


  19. 19
    fredevad

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:21 am)

    I find it interesting that 3 out of the 5 items are significantly below their 100 mile spec that we’ve heard up until this point.

    As for “2. Moderate temperature at 24 mph suburban driving, 105 miles of range.”, most of the suburban driving around me is 35 to 45 mph, not 24 mph (not to mention that hardly anyone drives the 25 mph speed limit anymore anyway). And what exactly does “Moderate temperature” mean? Seems to me that could be a different interpretation weather you live in upper Michigan or lower Florida.


  20. 20
    john1701a

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:22 am)

    Nelson: I would imagine the worst case driving scenario for battery depletion would be night-time highway driving (60 mph) on a cold rainy night in December (35 degrees F).

    That’s a joke, right?

    December 25, 2000 the temperature climbed up to -13 F, from a -26 F the evening before. I have lots of photos documenting that.

    January 2009 my commute to work was a balmy -20 F. Again, I took lots of photos.

    In the north (Twin Cities, Minnesota), we routinely see temperatures much lower than your worst case scenerio. In fact, we can go an entire week where the day-time high never climbs above 0 F.


  21. 21
    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:24 am)

    MICHIGAN GUY: it is designed and made in AMERICA by American taxpaying workers who buy houses and shop in America with their money, further boosting OUR economy, and helping other Americans to become or stay employed.  

    Dude you need to mellow out on the buy American thing. It is a world economy now. I suspect there are a lot of Asian computer chips and technology under the hood of the Volt. Probably designed on CAD systems from Asia. I suspect that if we toured your home we would find a computer made in Asia or all components from Asia. Most of your clothes are probably made by kids from Indonesia. Your light bulbs, microwave and on and on. The fact is that competition from foreign companies is good. The Michigan auto worker and their unions got drunk over and over again and are now paying the price with one hell of a hangover. The bartenders (GM, Ford, Chrysler) kept serving up the alcohol and didn’t cut it off. Then they crashed into the ditch (Ford somehow made it home with only slight damage) and wanted me to pay for the tow truck to pull them out. Hopefully they all learned their lesson and can be good citizens now instead of the drunken bums they were before. Time will tell.


  22. 22
    Cal Davis

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:29 am)

    (click to show comment)


  23. 23
    Roy H

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:31 am)

    The only real surprise for me was:
    3. Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range.

    This is where EVs usually shine. With good regen at low speeds one should expect much better. At 86°F I would not expect much use of A/C, however this is the primary explanation I can think of for this low range. The air conditioner must be running most of the time or there is an error in the reported figures.

    Leads to 3 points. LEAF could be better insulated to cut down on A/C and heating loads. Could the A/C (and heating) be made more efficient? Finally how good is the LEAF regenerative braking? Does it recover as much as a Tesla or Volt?


  24. 24
    EV Guru

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:35 am)

    (click to show comment)


  25. 25
    Pat

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:36 am)

    Agree buy Volt instead of Leaf unless it is made in US…Folks we need to move EV EREV if we want to avoid the Gulf fiasco ..look at the disaster we have on our hands .. but my sense is that lot of idiots in US will not change their habits & go for alternate cars ..they are too smug about driving 8 cyl trucks ..Europe asian countries will adopt the these new cars faster than in US ..& we will continue to live off the oil from middle east …sad but that is how things are in good ole US …


  26. 26
    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:42 am)

    Cal Davis: The LEAF’s worst mileage is still 7 miles better than the Volt’s best mileage !This does not look good for the Volt.  

    First, the University of “CAL DAVIS” is like one of those Colleges set up in a strip mall. Pay your money and get a piece of paper. Second, it is very apparent you had a “Hippy Lettuce” salad for breakfast. The Volt technology, once cost competitive, (It will take about 15 years) will be the standard. The “Chevy” E/Revolution will allow the normal, John Q Public, to have reliable low fuel cost cars and someday trucks. As an old hippy band Quicksilver Messenger Service said in a song, “Take another hit — of Fresh Air.” Put down the pipe for a day or two and come back to reality ;-)


  27. 27
    Eco_Turbo

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:43 am)

    Looks like Leaf drivers are going to be spending a lot of time at the dealers getting a quick-charge. They’ll probably serve free coffee. 8-)


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    Comcastic

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:45 am)

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  29. 29
    MotoBCT

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:45 am)

    Thanks for the information sharing Lyle…..

    Let’s now apply these “real world” Leaf numbers to the Volt.

    - It has been said over and over by GM that the Volt will attain 40 miles on a charge. Can we expect the “real world” 40 mile number to vary from 10 miles to 50?

    If the Volt actually gets on avg 10-15 miles to a charge on the battery array before the generator kicks in, WHY NOT GET A CHEVY CRUZE AND SAVE YOURSELF $10-15k.

    It’s easy to mock Nissan when GM won’t tell you price, fuel tank size, etc.

    Something to think about, if the Volt numbers were so great, would it not be in GM’s interest to publish them BEFORE the IPO?


  30. 30
    Roy H

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:47 am)

    nuclearboy: If the world was interested in cars that were good enough for most of the time, we could all drive two seat cars with 35 HP engines. As we infer from sales figures, people tend to buy what they might need, not what they usually need.  

    I wanted to give a +10 for that!


  31. 31
    Scooter

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:58 am)

    I live in the Southeast it hardly ever freezes down here so the 70 miles (55mph in 95 degrees) works for me. Also means I can go 15 further miles from the house than in a Volt using alternative energy. It doesn’t hurt that the Leaf has a very good price compared to Volt also.

    I saw LEAF driven around our local mall. Absolutely quite, no noise maker and it actually looks much better than in pictures. Love the LED lights and computer display.


  32. 32
    Roy H

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:01 am)

    Comcastic: 138 miles is impressive indeed.Many have posted on this site that the LEAF would only get around 80 miles. WRONG ANSWER!With the Volt’s max range of 40 miles the LEAF is looking mighty fine.  

    This is an extremely unrealistic metric. Just like the Tesla that went 313 miles on a single charge, but owners know 100 miles is the rational driving distance (allowing for some “sporty” driving).


  33. 33
    DonC

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    If the studies are correct and people are only comfortable using 50% of the battery pack then the Leaf will work for those having commutes between 20 and 40 miles, depending on where they live. That’s a fair number of people.

    However, the reported ranges are on day one with a new battery. As the battery ages the range will drop. So on day 500 take another 10% off.

    As for winter driving, below freezing encompasses a lot of temperatures. Once the temperatures drop below zero you’ll see much shorter ranges than when when the temperatures are in the twenties. Weirdly enough the Leaf would work very well in a city like Anchorage where the commutes are short, traffic is not heavy, and many offices have plugs for engine block heaters. Rural areas in cold climates not so much.

    Comcastic: Many have posted on this site that the LEAF would only get around 80 miles. WRONG ANSWER!

    Yes, that estimate seems a bit high.


  34. 34
    Gary

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:07 am)

    Interesting how Nissan was touting all the wonderful features about their electric car, such as silent operation, 100 mile range, etc. when they started taking deposits.

    Now that Nissan has thousands of $99 deposits from people, they’re are now revealing the ugly truth about the car, such as weird artificial turbine-powered vacuum cleaner sounds, and huge range variations. I wonder what’s next?

    This smells like a variation on bait and switch: you come to the store, money in hand, with the intention of buying one product, and when the original product isn’t available, you buy whatever else is there instead since you’ve already made the effort to get to that store. Sure people can cancel their orders, but Nissan playing the game this way will net more sales.

    I think Leaf deposit holders should revolt (no pun intended)!


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    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:15 am)

    Pat: Agree buy Volt instead of Leafunless it is made in US…Folks we need to move EVEREV if we want to avoid the Gulf fiasco ..look at the disaster we have on our hands .. but my sense is that lot of idiots in US will not change their habits & go for alternate cars ..they are too smug about driving 8 cyl trucks ..Europe asian countries will adopt the these faster than in US ..& we will continue to live off the oil from middle east …sad but that is how things are in good oleUS …  

    Pat, the problem is that it is only 40% of the oil supply is used for cars. The other 60% is used for plastics (Your computer, your car, your kitchen cupboard is filled with petroleum based plastics, many of your clothes, and on & on) , home heating oil, grease for machines, tires on cars, inks for many of the things you see printed, etc, etc. The fact of the matter is we need oil and to get off the Middle east stuff we need to drill in the gulf and ANWR and every where else in the U.S. that has reserves. The key is to do it responsibly, but until we have real leadership that can make tough decisions like real penalties for screwing up, it will never happen. So we will need to slog forward taking risks and every few years watching birds on the beach covered in oil.


  36. 36
    stuart22

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:17 am)

    RANGE LIMITATION + RANGE VARIATION = RANGE ANXIETY!!!

    A double dose of RA, I might add.

    I just can’t see the average car owner putting up with this. Once the media pops the first news story about some sweet and innocent mother and her infant child getting stranded in heavy traffic on the interstate because her LEAF ran out of juice…..

    I’m still unsure how the fallout from such stories will affect the Volt. Either it will boost its sales if it can be seen as immune from BEV range limitation issues, or it will hamper its sales if public disgust with electric cars becomes so overwhelming that it spills over to include EREVs.

    Lyle– this might be a good topic for discussion. How far should GM marketing go in separating the Volt from other electrics like the LEAF? Will the public understand the differences?


  37. 37
    MotoBCT

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:18 am)

    This sourced article is embarrassing!!!!!

    I’m glad blogs are not held to the same expectations/standards as newspapers and other content publishers.

    Edmunds is actually covering the event and will provide a higher quality of detail and coverage
    http://www.insideline.com/nissan/leaf/2011/nissan-invites-500-to-test-first-production-leaf-in-japan.html

    I encourage everyone to read the cited source article before racing to conclusions.

    So call fact content from the Forbes article:
    “At a preview event for Leaf this week in Japan, Nissan shared the likely real-world range under different scenarios. Let’s say you’re taking a leisurely drive on a pleasant day (68 degrees) and you’re cruising at 38 miles per hour. You can expect to squeeze 138 miles out of that little battery-powered baby.”

    The rest of her article is solely blather and HER conjecture.

    There is little detail on how the numbers were gathered and how much of the numbers were driven by some with a “lead foot”.

    If I accelerate hard repeatedly in my 35 mile per gallon Mini, I can drive my MPG down into the mid twenties. Driving style has a tremendous effect on mileage (we all know and live with this everyday).

    I can’t wait to get my hands on a CHEVY Volt.

    - When can I place an order?
    - How much will it cost?
    - When will the first deliveries to the public begin?
    - What are the standard and optional features?
    - What MPG will I get in charge sustaining mode?
    - What are my avg maintenance cost during a 3-5 ownership period?
    - Will the GPS/Onstar service for the Volt require a monthly charge or is it incorporated in the vehicle price?
    - Will GM guarantee my local dealer will not add a market adjustment to the vehicle price?
    - Is the vehicle designed to support a battery upgrade as technology advances or is that not possible?


  38. 38
    john1701a

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:19 am)

    Gary: This smells like a variation on bait and switch

    Careful. All we ever got was “40 mile EV” and “50 mpg CS” from GM. No detail.

    That doesn’t exactly paint an accurate real-world depiction for Volt.


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    MotoBCT

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:28 am)

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    Gary

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:37 am)

    john1701a: Careful. All we ever got was “40 mile EV” and “50 mpg CS” from GM. No detail.
    That doesn’t exactly paint an accurate real-world depiction for Volt.

    Hey, GM hasn’t been taking deposits yet. Dealers on the other hand… well you know, they would do anything for a sale…


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    Sal MBA

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:45 am)

    I read someplace before that Nissan said that the Leaf’s range would be +/- 20% depending on driving. The 138 miles maximum observed range is exciting. I’m sure alot of Leaf owners, like myself will try to beat that by utilizing mileage extending techniques. I’ll just use portable hand warmers for heat on cold days and a bucket of ice on hot days, to save electric.


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    John W (Tampa)

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:45 am)

    I agree somewhat with the guy griping about giving a foreign company 7,500 bucks, however, at least that car won’t use 7,500 dollars of foreign gasoline in it’s lifetime. It’ll also use American made electricity that is locally and federally taxed. And that provides work here in the U.S. plus it is Americans who work at these Nissan Car dealerships. I hope this makes you feel a little bit better.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:47 am)

    Roy H: The only real surprise for me was:
    3. Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range.This is where EVs usually shine. With good regen at low speeds one should expect much better. At 86°F I would not expect much use of A/C, however this is the primary explanation I can think of for this low range. The air conditioner must be running most of the time or there is an error in the reported figures.Leads to 3 points. LEAF could be better insulated to cut down on A/C and heating loads. Could the A/C (and heating) be made more efficient? Finally how good is the LEAF regenerative braking? Does it recover as much as a Tesla or Volt?  

    The Forbes article explains that was at only 6 mph, presumably with some air conditioning on. That 47 miles took almost eight hours. Battery powered cars just don’t have the energy to keep you cool (or warm) for long periods.


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    Tex-Arl

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:50 am)

    Some comment re going 38 mph on commute. In Texas they will get their a– run over if they can’t hit 70 instantly. Freeways do have minimum 45 mph.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:50 am)

    Dissatisfied and dissillusioned Leaf owners will become the Volts best spokespeople. Down deep, I’ll bet GM is delighted to see Nissan and Ghosn doing so much grandstanding – once the real-world limitations of this vehicle become apparent to the public, all those EV fans will start looking for a better alternative. In fact, this release tells me that Nissan is starting to feel the heat as well, and has begun the hedging process ( I saw they mentioned the need to do a better job “managing customer expectations” in a recent news release. This is exactly what’s going on here ).


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:53 am)

    Nissan is collaborating with US universities to learn and share information on EV technologies? Hope GM has the same type of affiliations.

    http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index?dcp=ppn.39666654.&dcc=0.216878497#/leaf-electric-car/video/view/research_at_uc_davis

    John W (Tampa): I agree somewhat with the guy griping about giving a foreign company 7,500 bucks, however, at least that car won’t use 7,500 dollars of foreign gasoline in it’s lifetime.It’ll also use American made electricity that is locally and federally taxed.And that provides work here in the U.S. plus it is Americans who work at these Nissan Car dealerships.I hope this makes you feel a little bit better.  


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:54 am)

    MICHIGAN GUY: Why all this LEAF news on the Volt website? Aren’t we dedicated to the best technology and the most sensible solution to our transportation problems, while at the same time keeping our fellow taxpaying AMERICAN workers employed?

    For better or worse, as the first widely available battery-only vehicle, the LEAF establishes a benchmark against which all other EVs will be measured. This includes any future BEVs designed and made in America (if any), and the Volt (unfairly). In order to further the Volt’s fortunes it will be important for us to understand the LEAF, to better point out the differences. EREV is in a separate class; there are far too many people out there who just do not ‘get’ the EREV premise (even frequent visitors to this site).


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    EVNow

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:55 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: Pat, the problem is that it is only 40% of the oil supply is used for cars. The other 60% is used for plastics (Your computer, your car, your kitchen cupboard is filled with petroleum based plastics, many of your clothes, and on & on) , home heating oil, grease for machines, tires on cars, inks for many of the things you see printed, etc, etc. The fact of the matter is we need oil and to get off the Middle east stuff we need to drill in the gulf and ANWR and every where else in the U.S. that has reserves. The key is to do it responsibly, but until we have real leadership that can make tough decisions like real penalties for screwing up, it will never happen. So we will need to slog forward taking risks and every few years watching birds on the beach covered in oil.  (Quote)

    What nonsense. 26.5 out of 39.2 quads goes into transportation i.e. 67%.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USEnFlow02-quads.gif

    We can’t drill our way out of this addiction – there simply isn’t enough reserves – in the US or in the world. Irrespective of what irresponsible politicians & talk show hosts may claim. The era of cheap oil is over.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:57 am)

    john1701a: Careful. All we ever got was “40 mile EV” and “50 mpg CS” from GM. No detail.That doesn’t exactly paint an accurate real-world depiction for Volt.  (Quote)

    Exactly. I’d like GM to be as transparent and tell us how their all electric “40 mile” range will be affected when struck in traffik on a hot day. I’m sure they have found a magical way to suspend laws of physics. As they say when you live in a glass house don’t throw stones at others ;-)


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:59 am)

    Chevy Volt test drives….. Has GM allowed anyone who participated to share the avg fuel economy? Thought so……

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJFRBfQD0AY&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVOw9SSedPw&feature=related


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:08 am)

    For those who didn’t see it yesterday, new LEAF safety feature. 8-)

    2637y3c.gif


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:12 am)

    Sal MBA: I read someplace before that Nissan said that the Leaf’s range would be +/- 20% depending on driving.The 138 miles maximum observed range is exciting. I’m sure alot of Leaf owners, like myself will try to beat that by utilizing mileage extending techniques. I’ll just use portable hand warmers for heat on cold days and a bucket of ice on hot days, to save electric.  

    I know your tongue is firmly planted in cheek, so you got a +1 from me… On the other hand, you might be “that guy”. Don’t forget to use that special wax that will help you cut wind resistance and I think if you Armor all the tires, they have less resistance too! ;-) Oh, I think the ice may add extra weight which would negate the no A/C !!!!


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:14 am)

    I might have to purchase a Leaf AND a Volt. (seperate years to get both tax credits)


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:22 am)

    Thank you, Nissan, for being up front with the numbers.

    BEV range is going to vary widely depending on (not necessarily in any order):
    1. Temperature
    2. Speed
    3. Driver technique
    4. Payload
    5. Winds
    6. Road condition
    7. Battery SOC and some other stuff

    The good new is that computer simulation (which will factor in 1 through 7) will accurately predict what your range will be and with the right connectivity (i.e. iphone) that information will always be in your pocket.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:26 am)

    Jimza Skeptic: So we will need to slog forward taking risks and every few years watching birds on the beach covered in oil.

    #34

    I don’t THINK so! -1


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    Chevonly

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:27 am)

    This is not a serious problem, keep the kids in shape, if you need to just drop them off one by one to extend the battery life, you could drop them off at the bus stop or just give them a cell phone and have a friend or relative pick them up. Gee why can’t nissan afford a program of free roadside assistance when your battery craps out to tow you to the nearest charging station. I CAN SEE THE HEADLINE NOW, FAMILY KILLED IN STALLED LEAF ON THE FREEWAY. So nissan get your ducks in a row and get those buyers to sign a release form so they understand what they are getting in to when they buy a car that has variable range anxiety. I WILL STICK WITH THE BEST VEHICLE THE CHEVY VOLT.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:28 am)

    stuart22: I just can’t see the average car owner putting up with this.

    #35

    I have to agree. Not quite ready for prime time, IMHO. +1


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:33 am)

    17 nuclearboy: I can easily see that range anxiety will not be a bother by your definition of it. Good metering will result in knowing exactly how far you can go and as long as you don’t try to bring it in at 99.99% dead, you should have little anxiety.
    The problem is, you just cannot go where you want to go on short notice and that is a real serious draw back for a car of this cost. Many people have to run extra errands or drop a friend off unexpectedly and with this car, many of those things just cannot be done. That significantly reduces the utility of this thing.

    Agreed on both points. Leaf will be fine for us because it can be a 2nd car, and because we live in a place where the 2nd car makes trips of 10 miles or less. It would not be satisfactory as a primary car.


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    Van

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (11:54 am)

    Wonderfully informative article. Thanks Lyle.

    Lets see if we can back out some performance numbers from the data.

    It looks to me like the AC unit draws 1.3 kw, so in a hour and 15 minutes, it would cut
    into the 19.2 kwh available and leave about 17.5 kwh for travel. So at 4 miles per kwh, you could go 70 miles @ 55 miles per hour in one hour and 15 minutes. Which as my engineer friends used to say, shows surprisingly good agreement with data point number 4. :)

    Now lets slow down and see what we get. Lets drive 105 miles at 35 miles per hour.
    Our AC eats 3.9 kwh for the 3 hour run. That leaves us with 15.3 kwh for driving. Here we would get about 6.9 miles per kwh. That would be somewhat consistent with data point #1.

    What should we expect at 65 MPH with the AC on? Lets drive one hour, go 65 miles, and use 1.3 kwh with the AC. That leaves us with 17.9 kwh and a mileage of 3.6 miles per kwh.

    And so to repeat my estimation, 3.4 to 4.2 miles per kwh is a reasonable expectation of performance of the Leaf and Volt in EV mode.


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    Streetlight

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:20 pm)

    LEAF’s upping a mere 17 mph (a 0.0 roadway from 38 mph to 55 mph) – results in a near 50% decrease in range. Where range vs battery temperature relates to SOC (state of charge) and aging. The least effect for a new battery at high SOC and the most effect for a three-year old battery at the least point of usable SOC. I doubt for these trials temperature & humidity had any more than a 5% effect on the whole enchilada. (Battery, tires, and frontal area)

    Now EV realities: Where at 55 mph LEAF gets 70 mile range; on a 3% grade (an incline under 6 degrees equates to the same under 6 %) a three times load (suggesting linearity but its not) will reduce range by another third-maybe 50 mile range. And further reduce range when at routine highway speed (in N. Cal.) of 65 mph. I suppose Nissan plans to offer a Gen 2 upgrade in a couple years to maintain value.

    These facts more than underscores VOLT’s ‘mountain mode’.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:22 pm)

    What happens when it’s 120derees outside and the car is sitting in the sun for 8 hours while you are at work? Without battery temperature regulation what happens when you get into your car after work and punch it to get on to the freeway and draw max amps and it’s 120 degrees out?
    Lithium ion has problems with high temps… rushed to market.. no temp regulation? I don’t want to be one of the test dummies.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:31 pm)

    Nelson: Better get AAA, towing is expensive.

    Exactly. The towing companies have to love this news. I could see in the future, a heat wave pushes through, and all of the Leaf’s don’t have enough juice to make it home. You would see several on the side of the road waiting for tow trucks.

    If your gasser runs out of fuel, its only a phone call or a walk to get 5gal of gas. If your Leaf runs out, get ready for a $100~$200 towing bill.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:43 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic: First, the University of “CAL DAVIS” is like one of those Colleges set up in a strip mall. Pay your money and get a piece of paper. Second, it is very apparent you had a “Hippy Lettuce” salad for breakfast. The Volt technology, once cost competitive, (It will take about 15 years) will be the standard. The “Chevy” E/Revolution will allow the normal, John Q Public, to have reliable low fuel cost cars and someday trucks. As an old hippy band Quicksilver Messenger Service said in a song, “Take another hit — of Fresh Air.” Put down the pipe for a day or two and come back to reality   (Quote)

    True, but after those 7 miles you’re walking or hitching a ride in my Volt!


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:44 pm)

    Guido: Dissatisfied and dissillusioned Leaf owners will become the Volts best spokespeople. Down deep, I’ll bet GM is delighted to see Nissan and Ghosn doing so much grandstanding – once the real-world limitations of this vehicle become apparent to the public, all those EV fans will start looking for a better alternative. In fact, this release tells me that Nissan is starting to feel the heat as well, and has begun the hedging process ( I saw they mentioned the need to do a better job “managing customer expectations” in a recent news release. This is exactly what’s going on here ).

    I just hope the Leaf EV doesn’t leave a sour taste in people’s mouth, or get a lot of bad press, to prevent people from buying more EV’s/Volts.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:47 pm)

    Notice how there are real-world observations for Leaf being discussed now.

    We have even have highway test-drive experiences about the plug-in Prius.

    What happened to the transperancy for Volt ?


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

    kdawg: I just hope the Leaf EV doesn’t leave a sour taste in people’s mouth, or get a lot of bad press, to prevent people from buying more EV’s/Volts.

    Same comment for the plug-in Prius… and plug-in Escape… and plug-in Two-Mode… caused by Volt.

    It’s the one-size-fits-all approach that has always been a concern, caused by all the “40 mile” range promotion.


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    Future Leaf Driver

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:51 pm)

    For me as well. But these tests bring up questions as to how well the Volt will perform in the same situations. Are Volts owners to see the same performance range, say 18 to 50 miles EV range? Or will the gas generator turn on constantly to heat/cool the Volt? Has GM released any info regarding this? These driving conditions don’t help any EV!

    I still feel that the Volt has a better “backup plan”, but at a higher cost and unavailable in my area until probably Gen 2, it’s the Leaf for me!

    Thanks for all the Leaf coverage Lyle. Even though this site is for the Volt, there seems to be slot of news Leaf wise!

    Go EV!!!

    RB:
    For me, these mile ranges will be fine.“Range anxiety” will be a function of good metering — a good estimate of charge and likely miles — that are still “in the tank.”[The words will remain long after the function of the tank is gone ]With good metering I’m not expecting any more range anxiety with the Leaf than with my Silverado truck.  


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    Cal Davis: The LEAF’s worst mileage is still 7 miles better than the Volt’s best mileage !This does not look good for the Volt.  (Quote)

    True, but after those 7 miles, you’re either walking or hitching a ride in my Volt which will just keep on going. The Volt can always maximize the battery only range available, the Leaf cannot…you must always have some reserve left, thus the real world electric range used will always be less the the electric range available.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    Sounds like we may need to arrange some Leaf Envy therapy for local aspiring Volt Non Owners Clubs. They want an EV so desperately but as every week goes by without an order process, envy rises and stupid statements spring forth.

    I see many adults in gasoline powered cars today stranded and walking on the side of the road with a gas can (gas stations are everywhere). This is not a technology issue but a human condition factor. Stupid is as stupid does.

    Where are all these stories of Tesla EV roadster owners not able to manage the power consumption and stranded on the side of the road?

    Chevonly: This is not a serious problem, keep the kids in shape, if you need to just drop them off one by one to extend the battery life, you could drop them off at the bus stop or just give them a cell phone and have a friend or relative pick them up. Gee why can’t nissan afford a program of free roadside assistance when your battery craps out to tow you to the nearest charging station. I CAN SEE THE HEADLINE NOW, FAMILY KILLED IN STALLED LEAF ON THE FREEWAY. So nissan get your ducks in a row and get those buyers to sign a release form so they understand what they are getting in to when they buy a car that has variable range anxiety. I WILL STICK WITH THE BEST VEHICLE THE CHEVY VOLT.  


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:55 pm)

    For better or worse this same variation in range is going to impact the Volt as well. In real world driving it’s AER is likely to vary from 20-55 miles unless GM decides to hide that by allowing greater DoD of the battery at times. I.e. The Volts 16 kWh pack would likely be capable of 30-85 miles if used to 80% DoD like most BEVs will allow.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (12:58 pm)

    I predict we will see this Volt moment as a case study in universities of what happens when a post bankruptcy company bets the farm on an technology that has not been tested in large scale and has questionable ROI numbers.

    john1701a:
    Same comment for the plug-in Prius… and plug-in Escape… and plug-in Two-Mode… caused by Volt.It’s the one-size-fits-all approach that has always been a concern, caused by all the “40 mile” range promotion.  


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    Jason: For better or worse this same variation in range is going to impact the Volt as well. In real world driving it’s AER is likely to vary…

    It’s nice finally reading comments like that!

    All along, it should have been an effort to promote available “kWh capacity” and educate what that meant instead.

    The “40 mile” range promotion could really come back to bite GM. Advertising an ideal or maximum hasn’t ever been a good idea. They set up expectations that don’t represent what owners will actually observe real-world.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:05 pm)

    RB: For me, these mile ranges will be fine. “Range anxiety” will be a function of good metering — a good estimate of charge and likely miles — that are still “in the tank.” [The words will remain long after the function of the tank is gone ] With good metering I’m not expecting any more range anxiety with the Leaf than with my Silverado truck.

    The difference between your Silverado and the Leaf is, if you are very low in fuel in your truck, you can just pull into a gas station and be on your way in 5 minutes. If your Leaf is low, you’re not going anywhere, or if you are out somewhere already, you may be severly worried about making it home (or somewhere to charge). That is the anxiety. Now with these huge differences in range in the Leaf, it will be even harder to predict how far you can go and if you should take the Leaf, your other ICE car, or just stay home and wait for your car to keep charging.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:05 pm)

    Nissan Reports LEAF Range Will Vary From 47 to 138 Miles

    Going downhill it’ll do 138 and on the flats, it’ll do 138. What a great piece of engineering! I can not wait to get one.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:05 pm)

    There everyone goes AGAIN.
    Sure the conditions on the Leaf reduces the range of the 100 miles but, apply the same stipulations to the 40 mile range of the volt. That’s right, you get even less EV range for even more money.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:10 pm)

    GM better pray that the EV wave throws them a bone. With Lutz hitting the road, have you notice how much less Volt details are emerging? You could always count on him sharing a hint or teaser before the official PR effort.

    GM is not sure how to market this rig. Do they wanna ride the EV wave or market a new path: Series Hybrid?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsPI1aKxXR0&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGriF1ReHZA&feature=related see: 3.15
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7UeUzwNBFs&feature=related

    Guido: Dissatisfied and dissillusioned Leaf owners will become the Volts best spokespeople. Down deep,I’ll bet GM is delighted to see Nissan and Ghosn doing so much grandstanding – once the real-world limitations of this vehicle become apparent to the public,all those EV fans will start looking for a better alternative. In fact, this release tells me that Nissan is starting to feel the heat as well, and has begun the hedging process(I saw they mentioned the need to do a better job “managing customer expectations” in a recent news release.This is exactly what’s going on here ).  


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:12 pm)

    Sal MBA: I read someplace before that Nissan said that the Leaf’s range would be +/- 20% depending on driving.The 138 miles maximum observed range is exciting. I’m sure alot of Leaf owners, like myself will try to beat that by utilizing mileage extending techniques. I’ll just use portable hand warmers for heat on cold days and a bucket of ice on hot days, to save electric.  

    Are you serious?


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:13 pm)

    Greg Simpson:
    The Forbes article explains that was at only 6 mph, presumably with some air conditioning on.That 47 miles took almost eight hours.Battery powered cars just don’t have the energy to keep you cool (or warm) for long periods.  

    Thanks for the info. I never realized this was over 8 hours of driving! Just the A/C for 8 hours will kill the battery. After 8 hours you would be glad to park and get out of the car anyway, so under this dramatic situation 47 miles is lots. I would be extremely frustrated at driving for 8 hours just to get 47 miles.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:21 pm)

    joe: Nissan Reports LEAF Range Will Vary From 47 to 138 MilesGoing downhill it’ll do 138 and on the flats, it’ll do 138. What a great piece of engineering! I can not wait to get one.  

    Meant to say “138 going downhill and 47 on the flats!

    I can see Leaf owners looking at the weather to see if it’s safe to take it out.

    Nissan is in for a rude awaken! They could have at least made it a good looking car and they couldn’t even do that.


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    MotoBCT

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:24 pm)

    GM has a track record of delivering REAL WORLD mpg numbers close to the ADVERTISED MPG

    NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

    CHEVY HYBRID MALIBU – REAL WORLD RESULTS

    http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-sedans/chevy-malibu-hybrid.html

    john1701a: Notice how there are real-world observations for Leaf being discussed now.We have even have highway test-drive experiences about the plug-in Prius.What happened to the transperancy for Volt ?  


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:25 pm)

    We talk a lot about variable range here.
    But not with specific numbers.

    I am really shocked by how variable it really is.
    The nice thing with the Chevrolet Volt is that I don’t have to worry about it.


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    MotoBCT

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:30 pm)

    We all know the Volt has been a success from day one!!! Not. GM has had more than one Volt PR failure. The video is proof.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h5AOWL0fRE&feature=related

    joe:
    Meant to say “138 going downhill and 47 on the flats!
    I can see Leaf owners looking at the weather to see if it’s safe to take it out.
    Nissan is in for a rude awaken! They could have at least made it a good looking car and they couldn’t even do that.  


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    Roy H

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:38 pm)

    MotoBCT: We all know the Volt has been a success from day one!!! Not.GM has had more than one Volt PR failure. The video is proof.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h5AOWL0fRE&feature=related
      

    -1 And you had to go back more than 2 years to find this failure about an early prototype.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:39 pm)

    GM has repeatedly pegged the value proposition of the Volt on the fact that most consumers will rarely see a gas station. If the 40 miles on electric is 30 in reality, make sure you keep your gas card in your wallet. If Volt owners are dipping into that 8 gallon (still waiting on that factoid) tank daily, why not buy a Chevy Cruze and call it a day?

    When you go to the Chevrolet Volt site, the primary focus/case is predicated on the 40 mile avg commute. I hope BEV marketers don’t have an easy way to compare total cost of ownership (fuel, electric, maintenance). Wonder how the Volt will fare?

    Rashiid Amul: We talk a lot about variable range here.
    But not with specific numbers.I am really shocked by how variable it really is.
    The nice thing with the Chevrolet Volt is that I don’t have to worry about it.  


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:47 pm)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y6-Qk_gDl4&feature=related [See 4:45]

    Roy H:
    -1 And you had to go back more than 2 years to find this failure about an early prototype.  


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:57 pm)

    I’m really surprised about the “Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range”I, like Lyle are one of the MINI-E drivers and the absolute best range I get is when I drive it in NYC. The car loves the low speed, traffic light to traffic light type of driving. I recently drove to NYC from Montclair (14 miles) drove all around the city for about two hours (25miles) and then drove back to Montclair. The trip was a total 53 miles and I had 61 miles of range left when I returned. Now if I had driven it for all 53 miles on the highway I would expect about 35 miles of range left. The test reported by Forbes must have had every possible electric option on and was just sitting in stopped traffic for many hours. City driving should get the best range on a LEAF.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (1:59 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: We talk a lot about variable range here.
    But not with specific numbers.
    I am really shocked by how variable it really is.

    I don’t think there’s anything too surprising here, especially when you consider that the 47 mi. range scenario was over an 8 hour period with the A/C on. (If I have to sit in a car for 8 hours at 6 mph, I think I’d rather just park it and walk.)
    _______

    Forbes–
    “When you’re crawling along in city traffic in the summer with the air conditioning on, it’s a different story. In that case (86 degrees and 6 mph on average) your battery will be dead in just 47 miles.”
    ____________

    Everything I read still says the way I (and a majority of suburban commuters) would use the car, you’re looking at 70 to 80 miles real world range, and that includes a little reserve left when you get home. (and we haven’t even gotten into “opportunity charging”)

    It’s important to remember that if you drove the car 60 miles/day 5 days/week and then another 80 miles per weekend then you’re looking at almost 24,000 miles per year. That’s a shltload of miles driven. If the batteries hold up as well as Nissan is saying (80% at the 10 year point), then I’d say Nissan may very well have the big seller that Ghosn’s been talking about.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:06 pm)

    Hi all,
    I just went to my local Chevy dealer and asked questions about putting a deposit on a Volt. He is willing on taking a deposit of $500 and will contact me as soon as the ordering information is available for the Volt. He expects that I would take delivery of my new Volt in January, nice way to start the New Year. So next mouth I’m am planning on placing that deposit and ordering my Volt the way I want it.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:15 pm)

    Cal Davis: The LEAF’s worst mileage is still 7 miles better than the Volt’s best mileage !This does not look good for the Volt.  (Quote)

    But the Volt doesn’t just stop running after 47 miles. The consequences of running out of battery charge on one is stopping on the side of the road versus the APU starting up.


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    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:24 pm)

    EVNow:
    What nonsense. 26.5 out of 39.2 quads goes into transportation i.e. 67%.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USEnFlow02-quads.gifWe can’t drill our way out of this addiction – there simply isn’t enough reserves – in the US or in the world. Irrespective of what irresponsible politicians & talk show hosts may claim. The era of cheap oil is over.  

    EVNow,,, Duuude — First I will nit-pick a little. If you look at the chart you link to, for oil quads on transportation it is actually 25.6, not 26.5. If you were the least bit detail oriented you would notice that under transportation oil is 25.6 and then you should notice that several other energy sources have a line drawn to transportation. This adds 0.9 to reach the number you quoted. So now we are down to 65%. No going back to details, my post clearly stated cars use 40%. The transportation category on the chart is all inclusive (that means Semi-trucks, trains, planes, boats. While you and Richard Branson may dream of flying planes on coconut oil, it ain’t happening anytime soon. Trains and Semis are all diesel burners. And while the Navy has ships that are nuclear powered, the rest of the ships and boats are not close to running running on batteries. (Ok my trolling motor runs off a deep cycle marine lead acid battery). On some DOT charts I have seen non passenger vehicles suck down about 10-12% of the petroleum. Finally, your chart is from 2004, since then we have had the economy slow down tremendously since then. (Of course if you are hitting the water bong every day you may not have noticed). Anyway. Oil from transportation has plumetted. People don’t work, they don’t drive as much. They don’t buy as much either, which means less trucks and ships etc. Less people flying. So when you get a chance, find a DOE 2010 chart of energy quads and then cross reference DOT stats on cars versus trucks versus planes, etc. I expect to see your report tomorrow morning when I check in. ;-) . I am guessing I will be right or just maybe you will be able to swing it to 45% for cars.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:38 pm)

    71 kdawg: The difference between your Silverado and the Leaf is, if you are very low in fuel in your truck, you can just pull into a gas station and be on your way in 5 minutes. If your Leaf is low, you’re not going anywhere, or if you are out somewhere already, you may be severly worried about making it home (or somewhere to charge). That is the anxiety. Now with these huge differences in range in the Leaf, it will be even harder to predict how far you can go and if you should take the Leaf,

    You are certainly right that the Silverado can be refueled much more quickly than the Leaf, and that it is a far more versatile vehicle. We will take it on all long trips.

    But in the latter part of your comment it seems to me you are suggesting a randomness in the Leaf’s expected range that is unlikely. It may be that the Leaf’s mileage can vary due to terrain, driver, and temperature, but of these three the only that that will change for me from day to day will be temperature, as my Leaf trips will be over and over, on the same routes, driven in the same style. Whatever the range is, I think it will be largely the same every day of the year, except for temperature. I wonder how much that will be? We have some days at extremes, but not too many. Still, our total mileage requirement each day is small enough (50 miles and down) that most days Leaf will be fine.

    So, even with all these exclusions, Leaf still will be suitable for 80% of our trips and so a very functional and productive car. . It is not so much that we are boring people as that we repeatedly find excitement in the same places, such as the grocery store :) On those few days we are caught by surprise, we’ll just have to come home and get the truck

    Yes, I still hope it will be a Volt instead, but that does not seem to be the real choice we face.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:41 pm)

    Bruce Embry: Hi all,
    I just went to my local Chevy dealer and asked questions about putting a deposit on a Volt.He is willing on taking a deposit of $500 and will contact me as soon as the ordering information is available for the Volt. He expects that I would take delivery of my new Volt in January, nice way to start the New Year. So next mouth I’m am planning on placing that deposit and ordering my Volt the way I want it.  

    Where are you?


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:41 pm)

    MotoBCT: When you go to the Chevrolet Volt site, the primary focus/case is predicated on the 40 mile avg commute. I hope BEV marketers don’t have an easy way to compare total cost of ownership (fuel, electric, maintenance). Wonder how the Volt will fare?

    Why don’t you just go post all your disparaging comments on the “Chevrolet Volt site” so they can get your input directly?


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:46 pm)

    Bruce Embry: Hi all,
    I just went to my local Chevy dealer and asked questions about putting a deposit on a Volt.He is willing on taking a deposit of $500 and will contact me as soon as the ordering information is available for the Volt. He expects that I would take delivery of my new Volt in January, nice way to start the New Year. So next mouth I’m am planning on placing that deposit and ordering my Volt the way I want it.  

    Congratulations. I have placed my deposit (New Mexico), but don’t expect to be able to order until 2011.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:49 pm)

    Roy H: Finally how good is the LEAF regenerative braking? Does it recover as much as a Tesla or Volt?

    My thoughts, too. Perhaps it’s not as good. Or the regen is fine, but they spent an hour in traffic with the AC blasting.

    Greg Simpson:
    The Forbes article explains that was at only 6 mph, presumably with some air conditioning on.That 47 miles took almost eight hours.Battery powered cars just don’t have the energy to keep you cool (or warm) for long periods.  

    If this is true, it’s a very good sign. It also confirms what I suspect, this vast range of values gives you a ‘worst case’ and most certainly not a typical drive. Also, the comment about regeneration above.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:57 pm)

    john1701a:
    It’s nice finally reading comments like that!All along, it should have been an effort to promote available “kWh capacity” and educate what that meant instead.The “40 mile” range promotion could really come back to bite GM.Advertising an ideal or maximum hasn’t ever been a good idea.They set up expectations that don’t represent what owners will actually observe real-world.  

    Variable AER due to conditions will not strand a Volt. It could very well catch a LEAF driver flat-footed. The whole point of two energy sources is that the strength of one overcomes the weakness of another, you buffoon. Meanwhile, the Prius, plug or no, can only sit and watch this drama unfold; as you already know so well.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (2:59 pm)

    FLASH NEWS!!! ” Average guy gets to touch, sit in, explore, talk with an engineer and others about the VOLT!!”

    At SchoolCraft College they are holding the 2nd Annual Electric Vehicle Rally and Show today til 6 PM. “http://sites.google.com/site/eaamichigansite/

    One of the featured attractions was the Chevy VOLT. It was one of the preproduction cars.

    This is the first time a common guy, like me, had a chance to actually touch and sit in the car.

    A very pleasant surprise! There was plenty of room to spare. The same can be said for the passenger side. In the rear seats we noted somewhat taller gentleman were very close to the hatchback glass overhead. A bumpy ride might produce some ouches.

    Did not get a ride because the press was in attendance and they got that option.

    With all of the comments about some noise needed for electric cars… the VOLT was really quiet when it pulled out for the “press briefing” ride.

    When the car returned there was a good size crowd back to ask questions.

    For an electric car show I was quite surprised to listen to some of the other presenters ask questions about the VOLT.

    MANY PEOPLE AT THIS SHOW DID NOT REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW THIS CAR WORKS. If this is an indication GM has some work cut out for education of the public.
    I need to note that there were some that did have in depth knowledge about electric cars. They asked good probing questions about specific specifications of the VOLT. Many times the engineer did note he could not comment about it.

    Price and “when will this car be for sale” were the most common questions.

    The engineer did give the price ranges and delivery dates we read about in this blog.

    His most common response was “go to the Chevy Volt site (http://www.chevrolet.com/) on the web. He noted there have been MANY updates and that is the best place to get the latest info.

    He also noted more information is going to the CHEVY dealerships all of the time and the salespeople and techs are getting training about this car. (a very good sign!).

    The only complaint I kept hearing was “why is there no printed information available about the VOLT available here at the show?”

    I commented quite a few times to people about “GM-VOLT.com” as a place for serious information and in-depth discussion about this car. Some were familiar with this site but most were not.

    For me this was a great time to touch, sit, listen, and discuss information about the CHEVY VOLT with interested folk.

    I just hope GM will build enough VOLTS. There was indeed a lot of interest in this car at this show.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (3:01 pm)

    fredevad: I find it interesting that 3 out of the 5 items are significantly below their 100 mile spec that we’ve heard up until this point.
    As for “2. Moderate temperature at 24 mph suburban driving, 105 miles of range.”, most of the suburban driving around me is 35 to 45 mph, not 24 mph (not to mention that hardly anyone drives the 25 mph speed limit anymore anyway). And what exactly does “Moderate temperature” mean? Seems to me that could be a different interpretation weather you live in upper Michigan or lower Florida. 

    Average speeds will be much lower than those posted or the maximums that folks drive.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (3:16 pm)

    Bruce Embry: Hi all,
    I just went to my local Chevy dealer and asked questions about putting a deposit on a Volt.He is willing on taking a deposit of $500 and will contact me as soon as the ordering information is available for the Volt. He expects that I would take delivery of my new Volt in January, nice way to start the New Year. So next mouth I’m am planning on placing that deposit and ordering my Volt the way I want it.  

    I hope it turns out for you. I can see dealers licking their chops over people anxious to get the car. Remember they can charge whatever they want for a car. The key word in MSRP is “Suggested” GM cannot set dealer pricing by law. The dealer can offer to sell at $50K and there is nothing GM can do. Law of supply and demand.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (3:22 pm)

    Cal Davis: The LEAF’s worst mileage is still 7 miles better than the Volt’s best mileage !
    This does not look good for the Volt.  

    Please don’t make the Ags look bad with your comments and appropriating the name under nefarious circumstances is not cool. You are referring to all electric miles not mileage ie. EV range. Clearly 47 miles of range is a scenario most OEM’s and EV owners will try to avoid, so citing these numbers as a “mileage comparison” could be much better thought out prior to commenting. Eight hours of driving on a 24 kWh battery though, is pretty good with AC, even if the mileage is ultimately disappointing

    If you have been creeping along with occasional six mph bursts for nearly eight hours, a 20 to 30 minute stop to top off may not seem like a deal killer, could even save your bladder.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (3:22 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic: I hope it turns out for you. I can see dealers licking their chops over people anxious to get the car. Remember they can charge whatever they want for a car. The key word in MSRP is “Suggested” GM cannot set dealer pricing by law. The dealer can offer to sell at $50K and there is nothing GM can do. Law of supply and demand.

    That’s why you discuss MSRP with the dealer when you place the deposit. You may not know what it is yet, but you can make the sale contingent on MSRP or something close.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (3:29 pm)

    carcus3: I don’t think there’s anything too surprising here, especially when you consider that the 47 mi. range scenario was over an 8 hour period with the A/C on. (If I have to sit in a car for 8 hours at 6 mph, I think I’d rather just park it and walk.)
    _______
    Forbes–
    “When you’re crawling along in city traffic in the summer with the air conditioning on, it’s a different story. In that case (86 degrees and 6 mph on average) your battery will be dead in just 47 miles.”
    ____________

    Very good point Carcus..

    The electric AC compressors that are being used in some cars are 1300w, plus a bit more for both air handlers, so lets say a total of 1700w.. the battery holds 19.2kwh and the AC system uses 1.7kwh.. thus if the AC ran continuously while the car was not moving the battery could supply it for 11 hours.. obviously the compressor will not run all the time (unless you kept the window open) so the numbers will be better than that. The guy probably used half his range on just the AC.

    I cant believe the reporter was crawling around in a traffic jam for 8 hours..


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (3:41 pm)

    MotoBCT: Nissan is collaborating with US universities to learn and share information on EV technologies? Hope GM has the same type of affiliations.
    http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index?dcp=ppn.39666654.&dcc=0.216878497#/leaf-electric-car/video/view/research_at_uc_davis
    John W (Tampa): I agree somewhat with the guy griping about giving a foreign company 7,500 bucks, however, at least that car won’t use 7,500 dollars of foreign gasoline in it’s lifetime.It’ll also use American made electricity that is locally and federally taxed.And that provides work here in the U.S. plus it is Americans who work at these Nissan Car dealerships.I hope this makes you feel a little bit better.  

    Apparently there are some US investors in Nissan who will gain when Nissan gains. See Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. (ADR) NASDAQOTH:NSANY.PK

    Listed on NASDAQ through ADR – American Depositary Receipts. Investors are entitled to dividends but hold no voting rights.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (3:53 pm)

    Herm: I cant believe the reporter was crawling around in a traffic jam for 8 hours..  

    It appears that these scenarios/ranges were supplied to the reporters by Nissan.

    /IMO this (Nissan’s candidness) is a good thing. They seem to be supplying the real world, as tested, numbers (at least I hope that’s what they’re doing). If everyone knows what to expect, then they’ll be much better prepared to maximize the usefulness of the car.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (4:01 pm)

    Schmeltz: Wow…47 miles range in some circumstances.And to think, people de-cry the Volt’s “low” range of 30-40 miles?!The Volt is looking like a better proposition every day.  

    I really agree with that, Schmeltz,

    I’m going into the Chevrolet Dealer next week to place my special order, even though I do not know the price, nor may not know it at the time when I actually do place my order.
    How about that for good faith?
    A most basic model with as few options as is possible, in Viridian Joule (Silver/Light Green) is what it will be. (Although A/C is a safety item here, a single CD player would be plenty for my needs).
    Here in Austin, the in-city driving and the outside temp very consistently at above 95F for five months in almost all of the afternoons’ drives home might pose more than just a little of a challenge to the Leaf, even for those 47 miles I’d suspect, but not for the Volt.
    /… just below my post, there is an ad for Nissan internal combustion vehicles instead of Leaf. How ironic.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (4:14 pm)

    pjkPA: What happens when it’s 120derees outside and the car is sitting in the sun for 8 hours while you are at work? Without battery temperature regulation what happens when you get into your car after work and punch it to get on to the freeway and draw max amps and it’s 120 degrees out?

    You actually get more performance at those temperatures.. racers will preheat their batteries. There was a report that a test in Death Valley increased battery temperature about 2 degrees.. The LEAFs battery has been designed for it.

    You realize humidity will not affect how the battery performs?.. with humidity it may feel like 120 degrees to us but not so to the car.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (4:29 pm)

    Related,

    Nissan may be upping U.S. bound 2011 Leaf production — from 20,000 to 45,000 units.

    Nissan LEAF Production Increased for 2011
    http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/06/12/nissan-leaf-production-increased-for-2011/#more-398


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (4:53 pm)

    Considering the battery capacity is roughly twice that of the Volt…what does this mean for the Volt’s all electric miles??

    Looks like GM needs to make a few more calculations too!


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (5:06 pm)

    Would changing driving conditions result in range anxiety? Say I plan to drive to Long Beach on the freeway at 65 miles per hour, for the 55 miles. When I get in, my handy nav system says my round trip range is 50 miles, because it assumes the driving cycle that gives 100 AER. I get on the highway and start using energy more quickly than the default. Does the EV-it system constantly recalculate using the average for the last say mile? I do not know. But since I have a pretty good idea of my AER driving at freeway speed, I would expect to arrive with energy to spare, even if it was stop and go so it took me 2 hours. I would need to quick charge at the Nissan dealership in Long Beach, but that stop is already imputed into my route plan.

    Bottom line, for trips over 70 miles one way, you need to plan on needing a quick charge. For round trips under 35 miles one way, it appears no range anxiety would exist. You would need performance expectations for round trips over 35 miles or one way over 70 to avoid anxiety.
    That would be a non-runner for me. However, I am still hoping that the NMC 2d gen battery will be available in 2013 models of the Leaf with a default range of 186 miles. That would mean I could make my weekly Long Beach run worry free with no quick charge in Long Beach.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (5:10 pm)

    Herm:
    The guy probably used half his range on just the AC.I cant believe the reporter was crawling around in a traffic jam for 8 hours..  

    The Leaf was tested using the LA4 Cycle test. I am to lazy to find the link again, but if you google it, you find out how it is done. It is like a short and flat track and you drive at different speeds and conditions. Everyone is supposed to use the same test.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (5:40 pm)

    107 Van: Does the EV-it system constantly recalculate using the average for the last say mile? I do not know

    Thanks for this and earlier informative posts today. Whether the Leaf computer can make estimates based on recent data is an important issue, so I hope it can. In the example you gave, one hopes it can know the outbound performance and give you pretty solid information about whether you can make it back home or need an interim recharge. Should be possible without too much difficulty, I imagine.

    My guess is that without accurate projections drivers will quickly become over cautious rather than be stranded. As ‘anxiety’ comes from not knowing, the computer should be able to wipe it out, in most cases.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (5:45 pm)

    OT, a poll of readers in Advertising Age, mostly advertising professionals, showed that 95% thought dropping “Chevy” was a bad idea, even a stupid one. Here at general motors dot com we knew that first :)


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (5:56 pm)

    I still maintain that range anxiety is for prospective EV owners. Once you own an EV, you become range limited.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (6:12 pm)

    Eco_Turbo: I still maintain that range anxiety is for prospective EV owners. Once you own an EV, you become range limited.

    What does that mean for Volt ?

    There’s a group that declares all you really ever need is 40 miles anyway. Then there’s another that works the anxiety angle saying you’ll need the engine from time to time.

    Sending mixed messages about purpose is a problem, especially when it comes to justifying cost.


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    Jun 12th, 2010 (6:22 pm)

    Eco_Turbo: I still maintain that range anxiety is for prospective EV owners. Once you own an EV, you become range limited.

    What does that mean for Volt ?

    There’s a group that declares all you really ever need is 40 miles anyway. Then there’s another that works the anxiety angle saying you’ll need the engine from time to time.

    Sending mixed messages about purpose is a problem, especially when it comes to justifying cost.

    You are absolutely correct, I meant to say BEV owners become range limited.


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    Grant

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (6:52 pm)

    This is one of the reasons I didn’t get my pre-order in. When I was looking at the price, I realized that for some of my job interviews, I’d have to have a second car. The Volt, assuming the price is reasonable, can BE that second car if I have to spend the night at a hotel or something. But the Leaf can’t. Even the small convention I went to last week would not have worked, as there was no charger in the parking deck and it was 98 miles to the hotel. So I’d BEARLY get there if I never went to full speed on the interstate and have no way to get back.

    It just doesn’t work for me…for the local commute thing I can do better with a high-end electric moped and be able to charge it in my apartment.


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    james huber

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (7:13 pm)

    pdt: EREV for me.  

    With this new battery a Erev or Bev will become mainstream.
    By Nick Aziz

    Less than 18 months ago, Toshiba unveiled a new lithium-ion battery called SCiB, capable of charging in minutes and lasting far longer than regular lithium batteries. There was only one problem: the batteries had a limited energy capacity compared to traditional lithium units. But a new version of SCiB promises twice the capacity, charing in as little as 90 seconds, and a 10,000-cycle lifespan — potentially making them ideal for electric cars.

    The SCiB series is based on the lithium-titanate chemistry, which is also used by California startup AltairNano in its NanoSafe cells. Altair’s cells have a specific energy density (capacity per weight) of about 75wh/kg. Comparatively, the original SCiB cells promised just 50wh/kg. Altair’s batteries are considered to be on the threshold of what’s acceptable for EVs, making the first-generation SCiB inadequate for anything but limited-range city cars.

    But the new SCiB cells have double the density of their predecessors. That means 100wh/kg, which puts the batteries much closer in capacity to the lithium-cobalt chemistry used in most cell phones, laptops, and cars like the Tesla Roadster. Although some lithium-cobalt cells have fairly high claimed energy density, they often require thermal management technology, which adds to the overall weight and therefore reduces the effective capacity. Moreover, consumers might be willing to accept slightly reduced range as a tradeoff for rapid charge capability and, critically, a much longer lifespan.

    Another important benefit of the SCiB’s excellent deep cycle lifespan is that a greater portion of the battery’s capacity can be charged and discharged on a regular basis. Take the Chevrolet Volt’s LG Chem battery as an example. Although it has a 16 kWh capacity, only half of that, 8 kWh, is actually accessible to the consumer. This is because allowing the battery to be fully drained and recharged can drastically reduce its life.

    The new SCiB cells are said have a deep cycle life between 5,000 and 10,000 cycles. Compare that to the batteries used by the Tesla Roadster or Chevy Volt, which are said to be good for 1,000 deep cycles. Deep cycle lifespan is considered to end when a battery has 80 percent of its original advertised capacity left. By this metric, it means an electric car with a 200 mile range using SCiB batteries would be able to travel 1 to 2 million miles before possibly needing a new battery.

    Also critically important is SCiB’s rapid-charge capacity, which Toshiba says allows its electric car battery pack to charge fully in 90 seconds from a high-output charging station. Altair’s batteries, in comparison, can be charged in as little as 10 minutes. A competing technology from A123 Systems can charge in 15 minutes. Tesla’s battery pack takes a minimum of 45 minutes to charge via an industrial hookup.

    Safety is another major benefit of the SCiB design. Thermal runaway, which can lead to fire or explosion, is not a concern with the batteries. As a result, cooling systems are not required. Another benefit of Toshiba’s new SCiB is improved power output. Toshiba says it has quadrupled the output density to 3,900 watts, making it one of the most powerful batteries in the world.

    Toshiba’s says it intends to mass produce the new batteries with a new factory in Niigata Prefecture set to open this fall. That will increase production from the current 150,000 SCiBs per month to over 2 million. Toshiba’s mass production ability already gives it a significant price advantage over companies like Altair and A123. Ramping up production will serve to drive costs down even more. Toshiba says it expects monthly output to reach 10 million units per month by 2015, for everything from cell phones to electric cars.


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    Future Leaf Driver

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (7:54 pm)

    No, he’s joking. Everyone knows it’s coffee & slurpees! You heat or cool from within!

    Go EV!!!

    joe:
    Are you serious?  

    joe:
    Are you serious?  


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    Sebastion Willingham III

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:00 pm)

    This range variation is not that usual.
    Even gasoline cars range varies wildly depending on driver habits.

    I suspect most drivers will get closer to the 138 than 47, say around 95.

    GM should be worried.


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    john1701a

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:03 pm)

    Notice the problems that emerge from not stating goals ?

    It’s quite troubling to see automakers flying blind, assuming what consumers want rather than the consumers themselves speaking out. Is there really range-anxiety? How can they know if they don’t know what the vehicle needs are? After all, the SUVs proved gross overkill, poorly designed for what consumers actually used them for.

    It’s too bad there still isn’t a common request for Volt. There’s only vague mention of what would be liked instead of something an automaker could actually target. For example:

    - PRICE: nicely under $30,000

    - EFFICIENCY: 35-miles EV real-world & 40 mpg CS real-world

    - EMISSIONS: SULEV rated

    - POWER: 0-60 in around 10 seconds

    - SIZE: 4-seat compact with average cargo area

    - AVAILABILITY: dealer lot (preferred), within a month order (acceptable)


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    neutron

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:31 pm)

    Sebastion Willingham III: This range variation is not that usual.
    Even gasoline cars range varies wildly depending on driver habits.I suspect most drivers will get closer to the 138 than 47, say around 95.GM should be worried.  

    No they do not need to be worried.
    If there was a an electric car that would give 250 + miles on a battery and it could be charged in a few minutes then GM should be worried. ( that vehicle and charge capability does not exist today)

    The fact is if one needs to drive farther, for what ever reason, can be done with out the “what if” the battery dies scenario… then that is the vehicle I and a LOT of other BEV lovers want.


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    neutron

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:41 pm)

    RB: OT, a poll of readers in Advertising Age, mostly advertising professionals, showed that 95% thought dropping “Chevy” was a bad idea, even a stupid one.Here at general motors dot com we knew that first   

    I was at a CHEVY or Chevrolet Dealership Friday.
    I asked the salesperson if a wrote them a check for a car with the word Chevy on it instead of Chevrolet would still take the check?

    Their reply ….

    ABSOLUTELY!


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    Mark Z

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:44 pm)

    E-REV looks better everyday when comparing the alternatives.


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    Herm

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:47 pm)

    john1701a: Notice the problems that emerge from not stating goals ?
    It’s quite troubling to see automakers flying blind, assuming what consumers want rather than the consumers themselves speaking out.

    Has it ever been different?.. what utopia world do you live in that you think it can be different. The goal is for GM to make money.. either they make money on the Volt and/or it brings people to the show room. This is the only possible goal of a fiduciary responsible company.

    john1701a:
    - PRICE: nicely under $30,000
    - EFFICIENCY: 35-miles EV real-world & 40 mpg CS real-world
    - EMISSIONS: SULEV rated
    - POWER: 0-60 in around 10 seconds
    - SIZE: 4-seat compact with average cargo area
    - AVAILABILITY: dealer lot (preferred), within a month order (acceptable)  

    This is all nonsense, everyone has different reasons for buying a car.. many of these has been broken many times by successful products. Is the Prius a failure because it only has a couple of miles of EV range?

    It is very possible GM will wrest the green crown away from Toyota, why does that bother you?.. do you own stock?.. if Nissan does it would it bother you also?


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    carcus3

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (8:54 pm)

    neutron: Many times the engineer did note he could not comment about it.

    …. no answer

    neutron: His most common response was “go to the Chevy Volt site

    … no answer

    neutron: The only complaint I kept hearing was “why is there no printed information available about the VOLT available here at the show?”

    …. no answer

    neutron: I was at a CHEVY or Chevrolet Dealership Friday.
    I asked the salesperson if a wrote them a check for a car with the word Chevy on it instead of Chevrolet would still take the check?
    Their reply ….
    ABSOLUTELY!  

    Aaahhhhaaa!, ANSWER!


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    kdawg

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:01 pm)

    RB: You are certainly right that the Silverado can be refueled much more quickly than the Leaf, and that it is a far more versatile vehicle. We will take it on all long trips.
    But in the latter part of your comment it seems to me you are suggesting a randomness in the Leaf’s expected range that is unlikely. It may be that the Leaf’s mileage can vary due to terrain, driver, and temperature, but of these three the only that that will change for me from day to day will be temperature, as my Leaf trips will be over and over, on the same routes, driven in the same style. Whatever the range is, I think it will be largely the same every day of the year, except for temperature. I wonder how much that will be? We have some days at extremes, but not too many. Still, our total mileage requirement each day is small enough (50 miles and down) that most days Leaf will be fine.
    So, even with all these exclusions, Leaf still will be suitable for 80% of our trips and so a very functional and productive car. . It is not so much that we are boring people as that we repeatedly find excitement in the same places, such as the grocery store On those few days we are caught by surprise, we’ll just have to come home and get the truck
    Yes, I still hope it will be a Volt instead, but that does not seem to be the real choice we face.

    I guess it comes down to how reliable the battery monitoring system is and how predictable your driving patterns are. I think one of the complaints about battery powered anything’s, is the inaccurate battery status displays. Hypothetical: So when your Leaf says it has 10 miles of range left, and you need to make an 9 mile trip, and you feel the range display is accurate, and you know you won’t get caught by a train/traffic, and you know will drive normal w/no extra acceleration for any reason, and you know there won’t be a detour, (and insert any other possibility here), then you should have no anxiety taking the Leaf. I just wouldn’t feel comfortable, but thats just me. I hope you can make it work for you (as well as all the other Leaf buyers). You do have the benefit of a second car (which I don’t plan on having). I think we need all EV’s to be successful, otherwise the whole market/industry may take two steps back. Even if you go w/a Leaf, you will still have a the chance at a Volt. Just lease the Leaf until you can secure a Volt. However, if you find the Leaf works for you, then just stick w/it.


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    Herm

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:03 pm)

    james huber: The new SCiB cells are said have a deep cycle life between 5,000 and 10,000 cycles. Compare that to the batteries used by the Tesla Roadster or Chevy Volt, which are said to be good for 1,000 deep cycles.

    Has Toshiba made a breakthrough on the cost of their cells?

    The full Volt battery could drive the car 80 miles * 1000 ends up being 80k miles total.. so you can see this is not the way to look at it. By derating the battery GM extends its total life.

    The competition to SCiB cells are LiFePO4 cells made by the Chinese and A123, only low cost materials are used in its fabrication and their life and performance is more than adequate for electric cars. The only important thing left to do is lower the cost.. I’m betting on LiFePO4.


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    kdawg

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:15 pm)

    james huber: Less than 18 months ago, Toshiba unveiled a new lithium-ion battery called SCiB, capable of charging in minutes and lasting far longer than regular lithium batteries.

    I’m guessing this chemistry is one of the many being tested at GM battery tech center. May the best tech win.


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    vincent

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:15 pm)

    Thats way too much unpredictable range. The Volt is the only way to go. No one can predict accidents, traffic jams etc.
    Just imagine having to get home. It starts raining on a humid hot day. wipers, traffic, radio and A/C with no range extender and the ugliest car ever made. No thanks.

    This car is not ready for prime time by any stretch


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    kdawg

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:29 pm)

    john1701a: Same comment for the plug-in Prius… and plug-in Escape… and plug-in Two-Mode… caused by Volt.
    It’s the one-size-fits-all approach that has always been a concern, caused by all the “40 mile” range promotion.

    I was referring to the range issues of being stranded w/a BEV. The cars you mention have ICE’s so this will be a non-issue.


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    Grizzly

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:42 pm)

    Go ahead and buy it. The only way we’re ever going to get where we’d like to be is by producing that which can replace what we already drive. Sorry, but realistically the Leaf won’t accomplish this. I’ll say it again as I said so many years ago….the fact that the Volt can burn E85 just furthers my point. We WILL NOT rid ourselves of oil in the next 50 years…..Impossible! What we can do is set ourselves on a PATH to self sufficiency. Pure electric vehicles may look good on the surface, but will only leave us short in the long run. How is your family supposed to take this on vacation??? By hoping for EV friendly hotels? Or….would you only buy this if you had a trusty gasoline car so you could actually live your life? ???

    Think about it.


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    Guy Incognito

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (9:46 pm)

    I’m a hypermiler I don’t care what its range is, I’ll be able to get the most out of it no matter what.


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    EVNow

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:12 pm)

    james huber: The SCiB series is based on the lithium-titanate chemistry, which is also used by California startup AltairNano in its NanoSafe cells. Altair’s cells have a specific energy density (capacity per weight) of about 75wh/kg. Comparatively, the original SCiB cells promised just 50wh/kg. Altair’s batteries are considered to be on the threshold of what’s acceptable for EVs, making the first-generation SCiB inadequate for anything but limited-range city cars.

    Problem with Altair is not ED – it is price. What is the price / kwh of Toshiba’s batteries ? Interestingly no word on that …


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    Goober Pyle

     

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:24 pm)

    Whoaa 138 miles schweeet.

    Gomer says Be Afraid GM Very Afraid.


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    john1701a

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:29 pm)

    Herm: Has it ever been different?

    YES!

    Haven’t you learned anything from EV1 or Two-Mode?


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    Urine Trouble

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    Jun 12th, 2010 (10:32 pm)

    I am becoming more impressed with the Nissan Leaf every day.

    This car will please many people.

    GM needs to make an EV that can compete with the LEAF !

    So far I don’t see it so Nissan should have the EV market to itself.

    The Volt will be busy competing in the Hybrid space against the Toyota Prius, Honda Insight and Ford Fusion.

    How did Nissan leapfrog GM so quickly in the EV game. They seem to have come out of nowhere with this Leaf.


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    crew

     

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (12:39 am)

    BEV drivers are going to have to keep getting used to diminished expectations.

    Five people (400 to 800 lbs more) in a Leaf can barely make it to the movies after work.

    Oh, wait.
    The results for Leaf range are for a single passenger.

    By the way, mini-e drivers were given the EPA ratings and were told that the formula overstated the mini-e ratings by about 50%. The Leaf real world range closely mirrors what mini-e drivers already know.

    The Volt engineers do not quote the EPA for range expectations.


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    AnonymousProxy

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (3:39 am)

    crew: The Volt engineers do not quote the EPA for range expectations.

    They only quote their 230mpg.
    What a joke! Why have more than a 2 galon tank? All bullshit.
    Why even have a tank? Oh yeah, so we can keep burning foreign oil and sta dependent on it.


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    MotoBCT

     

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (4:14 am)

    I’ve shared my comments to GM. I am a taxpayer and want GM to succeed. I’m concerned about the mixed marketing messages from GM.

    Michael:
    Why don’t you just go post all your disparaging comments on the “Chevrolet Volt site” so they can get your input directly?  


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    Randy

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (5:13 am)

    MICHIGAN GUY: Why all this LEAF news on the Volt website?Aren’t we dedicated to the best technology and the most sensible solution to our transportation problems, while at the same time keeping our fellow taxpaying AMERICAN workers employed?The LEAF will initially be made in Japan. Every dollar we ship overseas is lost forever, no taxes are paid, and our economy suffers even more.To make matters worse, our Federal government is going to give away $7500 of our tax money as incentive to buy a foreign made car.This is an outrage, especially at a time when so many of our fellow citizens are unemployed and hurting badly.PLEASE don’t participate in this madness.I urge anyone wanting to drive an electric vehicle to wait for the range-extended Chevrolet Volt.No worries about running out of battery power.Just drive as usual – anytime, anywhere. It IS the superior technology.It is the solution to America’s driving needs.And it is designed and made in AMERICA by American taxpaying workers who buy houses and shop in America with their money, further boosting OUR economy, and helping other Americans to become or stay employed.  


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    Jun 13th, 2010 (5:16 am)

    Amen I agree 100% whit this post , Most of the People going GaGa over the leaf seem to be totally clueless of the negative effect the trade defict has on our economy and to subsidize it with a $7500 US taxpayer bailout is madness.


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    Texas

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (5:57 am)

    Funny how some people here are saying that the 47 miles is so low that it’s close to the Volt’s range. What they don’t realize is that the usable capacity on the Leaf is 19.5 kWh and the usable capacity on the Volt is only 8 kWh. Thus, if you drive the Volt like you did the Leaf (to get that 47 mile range), in the same conditions, you are only going to get about 19 miles. Think people!

    It reminds me of heavy people that claim they can’t lose weight because of a gland problem, like a gland problem is going to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics. Don’t think so? Just lock that heavy person in a room that only has a toilet and sink (for water) for a month and see if that person can maintain their mass. Hint: impossible, unless they expire.


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    Jun 13th, 2010 (6:16 am)

    With it’s ugly looks and it’s limitations, this car is going to be a major flop here in the USA. In some other countries, it might do better.

    Folks don’t kid yourself, not many will put up with it’s restrictions especially when the buying cost is so high.


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    Jimza Skeptic

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (6:17 am)

    AnonymousProxy:
    They only quote their 230mpg.
    What a joke! Why have more than a 2 galon tank? All bullshit.
    Why even have a tank? Oh yeah, so we can keep burning foreign oil and sta dependent on it.  

    Anon – If you can actually use the Leaf without ever needing a second set of wheels that burns oil, then more power to you. But you must lead a boring life. Restricting yourself to a 70 mile radius of home. (I know you are the guy that will be able baby the car to the upper end and drive 70 miles out & 70 miles back). My guess is that you will be “the Guy” bragging about your Leaf, and then bumming a car from a friend to use for the weekend.
    The 230 mpg was a bad decision to use for marketing. It disappeared from the web site a while ago. The truth is, you can’t measure in mpg’s anymore. Some people may rarely use gas, and could get over 1000 mpg, while others like me, will not burn a drop during the week, but travel over 300 miles on weekends with little opportunity to plug in. The truth is we will always need gas and oil for many many years ahead.


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    Eco_Turbo

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (6:19 am)

    Texas said:

    Thus, if you drive the Volt like you did the Leaf (to get that 47 mile range), in the same conditions, you are only going to get about 19 miles.

    If Volt can get everybody in the US to drive 19 petroleum free miles/day, that would be a glorious thing. Some of these people might think a little about how they drive and get more gas free miles, and that would be even more glorious. Pure EVs will never do more than give a few people the tools they need to drive completely gas free.


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    crew

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (9:02 am)

    Eco_Turbo:
    Texas said:
    Thus, if you drive the Volt like you did the Leaf (to get that 47 mile range), in the same conditions, you are only going to get about 19 miles.
    If Volt can get everybody in the US to drive 19 petroleum free miles/day, that would be a glorious thing. Some of these people might think a little about how they drive and get more gas free miles, and that would be even more glorious. Pure EVs will never do more than give a few people the tools they need to drive completely gas free.

    One more time.

    The Leaf battery is air cooled. The Volt uses coolant/antifreeze.

    Leave the Leaf alone for a weekend, and a cold December Monday will suck even more. Go subzero and the Volt just goes on, no problem.

    Sub zero in the Nissan thing and you might not get out of the neighborhood.

    AnonymousProxy: They only quote their 230mpg.
    What a joke! Why have more than a 2 galon tank? All bullshit.
    Why even have a tank? Oh yeah, so we can keep burning foreign oil and sta dependent on it.

    Your soap box stand is noble, I appreciate your consistency.
    Chevy early marketing goofed with an oxymoronic statement, we know, but now we also know that the Leaf 100 mile range is less valid than the Volt 230 mpg equivalent.


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    vincent

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (12:12 pm)

    The Volts KW capacity with cooling is far better than more KW with No cooling. Lock your self in with the fat guy and think before you type

    Texas: Funny how some people here are saying that the 47 miles is so low that it’s close to the Volt’s range. What they don’t realize is that the usable capacity on the Leaf is 19.5 kWh and the usable capacity on the Volt is only 8 kWh. Thus, if you drive the Volt like you did the Leaf (to get that 47 mile range), in the same conditions, you are only going to get about 19 miles. Think people!
    It reminds me of heavy people that claim they can’t lose weight because of a gland problem, like a gland problem is going to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics. Don’t think so? Just lock that heavy person in a room that only has a toilet and sink (for water) for a month and see if that person can maintain their mass. Hint: impossible, unless they expire.  


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    Jun 13th, 2010 (12:25 pm)

    crew: The Leaf battery is air cooled. The Volt uses coolant/antifreeze.

    Ironic how you’re having the same argument.

    Civic-Hybrid has an air-cooled motor. The one in Prius is liquid cooled. There’s a big difference.

    You’re in for a big surprise if you think just a blog post alone is enough to convey the significance.


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    Engineer

     

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (12:51 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic:
    Pat, the problem is that it is only 40% of the oil supply is used for cars.The other 60% is used for plastics (Your computer, your car, your kitchen cupboard is filled with petroleum based plastics, many of your clothes, and on & on) , home heating oil, grease for machines, tires on cars, inks for many of the things you see printed, etc, etc.The fact of the matter is we need oil and to get off the Middle east stuff we need to drill in the gulf and ANWR and every where else in the U.S. that has reserves.The key is to do it responsibly, but until we have real leadership that can make tough decisions like real penalties for screwing up, it will never happen.So we will need to slog forward taking risks and every few years watching birds on the beach covered in oil.  

    I’m sorry sir you have your facts mixed. The plastics industry uses something around 2%-3% of oil production for producing raw materials. And it hasn’t changed much.

    I have been in the plastics industry for quite some time, and if we DID use 60% of the oil production we would be in a WHOLE lot more trouble with the swings in crude price.


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    LEAF ME

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    Jun 13th, 2010 (8:39 pm)

    I’m buying a LEAF. I can’t wait. GM wouldn’t sell me an EV-1. BMW won’t sell me a MINIe. I’m a little poor to use a Tesla roadster as a daily commuter. Thankfully, Nissan is stepping up while GM keeps talking. How about that VOLT? If GM was building anything like the BEV concept car, I would get in line. They are NOT. Surprised? Really?
    The Fed $7.5K tax credit is nice, my state pops on another $6K, too bad I can’t even utilize this in Detroit…
    Range anxiety? This will not be my only vehicle. Everyone needs a truck sometime. The realistic numbers on the LEAF battery will work fine for me.


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    Jun 13th, 2010 (10:55 pm)

    Okay, so what will the Volts EV driving range in these same conditions? Cold weather 20 degrees equils 20 mile EV range? So you will be driving an ICE. If that is the case then just buy a Cruze…


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    crew

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    Jun 14th, 2010 (12:39 am)

    john1701a: Ironic how you’re having the same argument.
    Civic-Hybrid has an air-cooled motor.The one in Prius is liquid cooled.There’s a big difference.
    You’re in for a big surprise if you think just a blog post alone is enough to convey the significance.

    Interesting note about those two motors, but irrelevant here since we’re talking about the effects of ambient temperature not process efficiencies.

    Put the Prius in a cold Canadian winter environment and that motor becomes a non factor since the nimh battery is dead.
    The car won’t even crank.
    The Volt will happily just get up and go.
    Nice try at finding irony, though.

    Given the same nominal environmental conditions, the process efficiencies of the battery types used in a Volt vs Leaf comparison would be a better argument that would benefit the Leaf. But who cares about that when the bigger fish argument here is about getting what you pay for with electric range in all circumstances?
    Go sell these cars around the world and the type of battery cell doesn’t mean as much as the protection of the operating temperatures.

    Not every market has the weather of Los Angeles.


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (4:47 am)

    Moderate temperature? What the hell does that mean? 50-70*F?


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (9:30 am)

    LEAF Range…??? The range Nissan put out DID NOT include reductions in battery storage over time so you really don’t know what your going to get in 2, 3 or 4 yrs. Nissan’s numbers are going to severely impact sales with that much variation.

    Volt Range – Unlimited as long as your not planning to stop at a BP station. This idea that Volt has some “Limit” as to where you can go and when you can go is crazy. 5 Min. of your time and the Volt can cruise along at 70 mph for another 300 miles over and over and over all day long. It’s effectively UNLIMITED. So what if I get 30 miles EV on Tuesday and 45 miles EV on Thursday. It in no way limits my freedom.

    Go Volt


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (10:34 am)

    Steve Martin: Wow, why such a big difference between #3 and #4:3. Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range4. Highway driving at 55 mpg in 95 degree heat with A/C on, 70 miles  (Quote)

    That dense traffic range doesnt make mathematical sense! – like a hybrid (with its regenerative braking) the dense inner city traffic shouldn’t make much of a difference. In fact as you state range should be further as the car is not having to overcome much aerodynamic / motion resistance. But it would depend on driving style. If driver slammed on brakes to not use regeneration then they wouldnt get that bit back. Also idling in traffic the car would no more power than it takes to run the stereo!!! Sounds bogus.


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (10:48 am)

    Thought so – that 47 mile range is a crock! This is from the Forbes article:…

    “When you’re crawling along in city traffic in the summer with the air conditioning on, it’s a different story. In that case (86 degrees and 6 mph on average) your battery will be dead in just 47 miles.”

    ie. 6mph average – that means you’re in the car for 7.8 hours!!! ie. it means you’ve been sitting there with the stereo and the ac on for 8 hours. Note that an “average” car would use 1/2 a gallon of gas idling in stationary traffic running the AC. If you’re in traffice for nearly 8 hours in ONE JOURNEY you’ve got more of a problem than a 47 mile range – you also haven’t got home before 2am and your wife/husband will be a bit annoyed!!!
    I doubt ANYONE in the world (outside of India) is driving at 6mph for 8 hours.

    I’m also suspicious they even tested this properly (were really in a traffic jam for 8 hours). If you reset the computer then it will calculate range based on behaviour. So if you drove 1 mile in 10 minutes (and used a piddly 1/47th of the battery to drive 1 mile and run the A/C for 10mins) to cool the car then your range is 47 miles.


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (10:56 am)

    Tom M: I’m really surprised about the “Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range”I, like Lyle are one of the MINI-E drivers and the absolute best range I get is when I drive it in NYC. The car loves the low speed, traffic light to traffic light type of driving. I recently drove to NYC from Montclair (14 miles) drove all around the city for about two hours (25miles) and then drove back to Montclair. The trip was a total 53 miles and I had 61 miles of range left when I returned. Now if I had driven it for all 53 miles on the highway I would expect about 35 miles of range left. The test reported by Forbes must have had every possible electric option on and was just sitting in stopped traffic for many hours. City driving should get the best range on a LEAF.  (Quote)

    It says at 6mph average (47/6 = 7.8888 hours) – so it’s assuming an 8 hour journey, running the A/C for 8 hours + 47 miles driving. It’s an unlikely scenario – being in a 8 hour traffic jam!


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (10:58 am)

    Technically an electric car has a 0 mile range if you didnt drive it and left the A/C on for 5 days. – That’s basically as flawed as that 47 mile range figure!


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (11:32 am)

    What a joke! I am a big proponent of any vehicle that helps wean America off its addiction to oil, but 47 miles is ridiculous. Not only that, but quoting laughably low speeds of 24mph, 38mph, and even 55mph for the highway is a sham as well. I will admit that when the Volt first came out, I was all about that car and dying to get in the driver’s seat of one ASAP. Since the LEAF has been revealed, however, I have been leaning towards that car simply because it does not consume oil. With only a 100 mile range, I will gladly alter my commute and driving habits if it means that no more of my friends have to die in Iraq securing our fuel supplies (4 thus far plus one who is crippled from an IED); however, 47 miles cannot come close to what I need to make it to and from work (60 miles roundtrip) everyday. I sincerely hope that Nissan finds a way to do better, but it looks like the Chevy (pardon me, “Chevrolet”) Volt is the best fuel-efficient car coming out this year.


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (3:39 pm)

    Roy H: The only real surprise for me was:
    3. Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range.

    Autobloggreen says the heavy stop-and-go test was done at an average speed of 6mph. The range given for this test was 47 miles– that’s almost EIGHT HOURS in the car. I suspect that over eight hours, even mild AC use becomes a substantial fraction of energy expended. This is also a really unusual test case. Most people spend a little time in stop-and-go traffic like this– maybe twenty minutes– before they get far enough out to resume normal driving. I can’t imagine there’s very many cases of people who spend eight solid hours going 6mph each day.


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    Jun 14th, 2010 (4:47 pm)

    NASA-Eng – Volt Range?????

    I did not say Volt Hybrid range…I said Volt EV range at 20 degree operation temperature. Don’t give me “Unlimited Range” while driving in extender mode. You are basically driving a 4cyl ICS and the majority of posters on thi site brag daily about driving a Volt in ICS mode and do not care if they are using gasoline as long as the car has a GM logo on it. Why even spend the money on a Volt if you plan on continually driving it in ICE mode. I myself want to drive in EV “Only” mode…..


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    Jun 15th, 2010 (5:54 am)

    Engineer:
    I’m sorry sir you have your facts mixed.The plastics industry uses something around 2%-3% of oil production for producing raw materials.And it hasn’t changed much.I have been in the plastics industry for quite some time, and if we DID use 60% of the oil production we would be in a WHOLE lot more trouble with the swings in crude price.  

    I am sorry Sir, you clearly did not read the post close enough. 40% for cars 60% includes plastics, Home heating oil, grease, tires, clothes, printing inks, and on and on. (which also includes fuel for airlines, Semi Trucks and trains. Plastics was just the first on the list. This is not a nutritional label where you list ingredients in order of amount. That said, I work for a company that make a special film laminate for thin film solar and I can tell you that price swings in oil do cause a huge problem for us. PET, Surlyn, EVOH, and others resins do follow the price per barrel to a T. Dude, you need to back off using the Hippy Lettuce. ;-)


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    Jun 15th, 2010 (9:23 am)

    Newsflash – ALL cars have a ZERO mile range if you dont drive them and leave the A/C on and the ignition on. Considering 47 mile range = @ 6mph = 7.888 hours till flat – that’s almost as stupid.


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    Jun 15th, 2010 (2:31 pm)

    1. At perfect 68 degree Fahrenheit temperature and steady-state flat-course 38 mph, the car could achieve 138 miles of range.

    2. Moderate temperature at 24 mph suburban driving, 105 miles of range.

    3. Dense inner city traffic and 86 degrees F, only 47 miles of range

    4. Highway driving at 55 mph in 95 degree heat with A/C on, 70 miles

    5. Cold weather (14 degrees F) city driving, 62 miles of range

    OK this is bad, things will be a lot worse then they are showing. The examples are just normal days they happen many places many times.
    What about Dense inner city traffic and 99 or higher degrees F, only 35 miles of range?

    What about Cold weather (-10 degrees F) city driving, 12 miles of range?

    Why did they use 95 for the hwy but only 86 in the city?


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    Jun 16th, 2010 (7:14 pm)

    Jimza Skeptic: I suspect the masses would be closer to the 47-60 mile range. No wonder Nissan is questioning buyers and trying to hand pick them. I suspect they are hoping to sell only the Environmentalist or similar minded people that will baby the car and try to wring every mile out of the battery. You know the guy, the one that will keep the A/C off and windows rolled up (don’t wanna mess up the aerodynamics) on a hot day.   (Quote)

    People miss the point. This variation in range is to be expected. What’s new about the leaf is that it can be fast charged or have battery exchanged to overcome the range anxiety.