GM had been in a developmental and production partnership with Indian electric carmaker REVA to develop a low cost pure electric car for the Indian market. The e-Spark was moving towards a debut at the end of the year, though finding a lithium ion battery maker in India was noted to be a stumbling block.
Suddenly, however, the venture has ended, as REVA was purchased by the large Indian carmaker Mahindra and Mahindra. As a consequence of this acquisition, GM was forced out, and had to scrap its plans to build the India-based electric car for the Indian market.
“Now with Reva changing its ownership we saw no particular value in doing this experiment,” said Karl Slym, head of GM’s India operation.
GM had already planned to invest $246 million to build a facility to build electric motors, controls, and possibly electric cars.
With the REVA partnership ended, GM will move its pure EV development operation in-house to Detroit. Though the e-Spark was to launch by the end of this year, GM can no longer provide a timeframe as to when the car will be ready, if at all. It is instead more likely GM will simply introduce the Volt in India.
Sources have indicated that GM will be testing an electric car in a pilot program in the US. Though GM has no official plans to launch such a vehicle here, if the market shows demand is sufficient, GM will be prepared. More likely, as GM and many analysts predict, the extended-range electric Volt will prove to be more popular in this country.
“We are studying many alternatives after VOLT,” vehicle line director for the Volt, Tony Posawatz says.
“We certainly are studying BEV’s but EREV will carry the day for many years,” he adds.
Meanwhile, Nissan is now claiming it has 19,000 pre-orders for the LEAF EV between the US and Japan, with 13,000 in the US and 6,000 in Japan. This is already double Nissan’s first year global production capacity of 10,000 cars. Nissan expects their Japanese plant to eventually output 50,000 cars once enough batteries are available. Once plants go online in the US and Europe, Nissan will be able to produce 200,000 electric cars annually by 2012.
Since Nissan is already potentially overselling its LEAF capacity, the company is planning to begin pruning interested parties to manage expectations.
“We’ll even be advising some people not to buy,” said Andy Palmer, head of Nissan’s EV division. “We don’t want them to be driving 300 miles a day. It’s all about managing expectations. Electric cars aren’t for everyone.”
Maybe the LEAF isn’t for everyone, but the Volt certainly could be.
Source (Economic Times) and (Automotive News)
+19
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:27 am)“Maybe the LEAF isn’t for everyone, but the Volt certainly could be.”
AMEN!
I’m glad GM is bringing its EV development efforts on-shore. The company is developing the broadest institutional knowledge of any OEM about all the options for advanced transportation, be it fuel cells, BEVs, ER-EVs and hybrids. This can only bode well for its future.
+5
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:32 am)Realities begin to emerge. From the introductory post:
GM: “We are studying many alternatives after VOLT,” vehicle line director for the Volt, Tony Posawatz says. We certainly are studying BEV’s but EREV will carry the day for many years,”
he adds.” My comment: Right, GM —now scale up your production planned!
Nissan: “We’ll even be advising some people not to buy,” said Andy Palmer, head of Nissan’s EV division. “We don’t want them to be driving 300 miles a day. It’s all about managing expectations. Electric cars aren’t for everyone.” My Comment: Right, Nissan —now back off on your production planned.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:34 am)Right on Lyle, the Volt is for everybody.
I say GM should spend their efforts marketing the Volt in India as well, put it in some Bollywood films, give one to the Prime Minister or whatever they have over there, but no leather seats of course
.
They should focus on making the Volt the number one car in the world. Not creating and marketing an Indian specific BEV. GO VOLT! GO U.S.A.!
+4
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:36 am)I like the fact that GM is not relying so much on other partners. This car can’t have the importance of the Volt, but it still seems worth doing, probably as a niche type of vehicle. Looks a LOT better than the Smart car (unless it is tinier than it seems in the picture).
+14
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:47 am)I can’t wait till they are cranking out Volt’s by the hundreds of thousands, the economies of scale are in effect, and we have say 4 battery options.
Let’s say the current 16kw pack with 8kws usable is 10 grand. how bout 3 other options..
Which would you choose?
Option 1. 10,000 dollars.
16kw battery with 8kws usable, 40 mile a charge guarantee for 7 years or 100,000 electric miles for 10,000 dollars.
Option 2. 5,000 dollars.
8kws with 4kw usable 20 miles a charge 7 years or 50,000 electric miles.
Option 3. 5,000 dollars.
8kw battery with 8kw usable. 40 miles at first but 3 year warranty that you will get over 20 miles a charge at 3 years or 45,000 electric miles.
Option 4. 2,500 dollars
4kw battery with 4kw usable. 20 miles at first but 3 year warranty that you will get over 10 miles a charge at 3 years or 22,500 electric miles.
I believe this will be how they can make this a mainstream electric car. Getting the base price of the Volt down to 20k without high end features and choosing battery option 4 could get the Volt down to 22,500 and then with a tax credit, forget about it.. Hottest selling car in the world.
I may be interested in taking battery option 4, for now anyways. When the battery is only giving me 5 miles of charge in 4 or 5 years I’ll replace it with option 1. It’d probably be down to 4k by then. Pardon my long winded comment.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:47 am)Hopefully Nissan will see the light and come out with an EREV version of the Leaf.
The Volt desperately needs some competition, and by that I mean a car that:
- runs on electricity or gas
- has lat least 30 miles all-electric range
- is built by a major car maker
- is real, and not a concept or prototype
by that simple definition, the Volt has no competition, and thats a problem.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:59 am)What will be very interesting to watch, is if Nissan sells as many BEV’s as they’ve got plans for. Then GM management (and some fanboys) will have to find something besides “range anxiety” to shriek about.
+6
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:01 am)According to the counter – only 172 days to go……
I just wish I had some real idea of when I will be able to buy a Volt!! My local dealer has no idea and GM isn’t saying.
And unlike the Captain, or John from Tampa @ #5 above, I want the fully loaded LTZ model. I expect to keep this car for a long time, so I might as well have all the toys to play with.
Come on, GM! I am here in Youngstown, OH. I am ready to purchase. It is all up to you at this point…………..
Today’s topic? A 100 mile BEV version of that CUV would be perfect for our home in Florida! I am glad it would not be imported from India. There are about 50 states right here that would be glad to produce it. OK GM, that is two cars you can sell me!
Have Outlet – Ready For E-REV & BEV
NPNS
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:02 am)I’m not sure I believe Nissan has 19,000 pre-orders for the Leaf. It could be marketing B.S.
However, even if they do, so what. How many people of those 19,000 will follow through and buy the car?
I know there are 40,000+ members who signed up here saying they want to buy a Volt; I am one of them. HOWEVER I’m not in the market for a car and I won’t be buying a Volt or any vehicle for many years. Let’s face it. Most people, unless they are extremely wealthy, can’t afford to buy a car on a whim. Especially one that will likely set you back $40,000 regardless of any federal kick backs. So go ahead Nissan, show me your customers, if you can.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:06 am)I agree, I know BYD isn’t a major car company here in the U.S. but perhaps it is in China, if it’s not then it soon will be. They just opened a U.S. headquarters in California where I’m sure they will be pushing their electric hybrid the hardest. It gets over 30 electric before using gas. But I know you were talking about one of the top 5 global companies. If the Volt sells as well as we all hope then I’m sure they’ll all have one in 5 years and hopefully like the Prius the Volt will be leaps and bounds ahead and the imitators will fall by the wayside. Or not which would be good as well (As long as we’re talking Ford and Chrysler
)
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:08 am)GM already has a pure electric car, the Volt, with some things removed and others put in. Use the money to find a way to sell more Volts in 2010 and 2011.
+15
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:08 am)“Maybe the LEAF isn’t for everyone, but the Volt certainly could be.”
Truer words have never been spoken.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:25 am)Careful what you wish for.
Geneva Auto Show: Audi A1 E-tron
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/04/geneva-auto-show-audi-a1-e-tron/
+6
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:28 am)One of the minor irritants of waiting for the Volt to start being built is listening to the EV1 zealots rant on and on about how ‘GM is a hateful corporation, they never really wanted to sell the EV1, why they even downplayed it to the extent that they warned people about range limitations!’
And now- “We’ll even be advising some people not to buy,” said Andy Palmer, head of Nissan’s EV division. “We don’t want them to be driving 300 miles a day. It’s all about managing expectations. Electric cars aren’t for everyone.”
How long before we have to listen to ‘Nissan is evil!’?
+12
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:28 am)I still don’t know why so many people on this site put down pure BEVs. I agree there is a big enough market for both, and both vehicles help bring down the costs for each other by pushing battery technology forward.
The quote that bothers me is the NIssan one about ‘we don’t want people driving 300 miles a day’. Whats the hidden message there? The more you drive the sooner you will have problems? I thought the more you drive on electrons the less you drive on imported oil and thats the whole point.
-2
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:31 am)You can listen for that right after Nissan starts crushing the Leaf.
+12
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:34 am)I’d rather Nissan just work on making a good BEV. I’m certainly in minority here but I believe initially there is a bigger market for pure BEV because the folks that can afford a Leaf or a Volt already have 2 cars and a garage. Therefore the Leaf will save you more gas for less of a cost. For most people an EREV/BEV combination gives you the range on one hand and the ability to drive more miles electric on the other.
We need both of these cars to be sucessful. I’d prefer the volt because made in America but the Leaf soon will also be made in America.
+9
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:41 am)I’m with you with this. Here’s how I see it. The makers of pure BEVs are going to see that their customers want more range and faster charge times. If these makers don’t want to lose market share to the EREVs, they will work harder to improve both. Everyone wins when that happens.
+7
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:43 am)I got into an accident last night. Where? Of all places, at the gas pump. I hit the guy in front of me. No damage as I was traveling about 1 MPH. But I couldn’t help but think, “this never would have happened if I had the Volt”.
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:44 am)I wonder if Mahindra & Mahindra plans to bring the Reva electrics to the US?
The seem to be a global company. Here’s the Reva site
http://www.revaglobal.com/Homevideos.aspx
+6
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:47 am)What? Some other company other than GM getting criticized for a decision they made??? Are you mad? That will never, ever happen.
Here’s a handy form for people to start filling out to save time:
[INSERT NAME OF CAR COMPANY OTHER THAN GM HERE], can do NO wrong. Only GM has the franchise of being the evil empire. GM [INSERT DISPARAGING COMMENT HERE], and kicks puppies, and tramples flowers…..
/You get the drift. Sarcasm off.
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:48 am)For all you electric truck ppl:
“Mahindra has already developed an electric version of its mini pickup truck, the Maxximo, and plans to introduce it in December.”
“Neither Mahindra nor Reva sells cars in the United States, but are hoping to enter that market — Mahindra with a line of pickup trucks by the end of the year and Reva with the NXR through a contract manufacturing deal. Mahindra already sells tractors in America.”
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:58 am)The big 3 do have something to fear from Mahindra, in the form of a 30 mpg pickup.
http://www.mahindrana.com/indian-cars-and-trucks.html
/Mahindra builds tractors in Texas, California, and Tennessee
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:01 am)“We’ll even be advising some people not to buy,” said Andy Palmer, head of Nissan’s EV division. “We don’t want them to be driving 300 miles a day. It’s all about managing expectations. Electric cars aren’t for everyone.”
Correction Nissan; Electric cars without range extenders aren’t for everyone. But electric cars WITH range extenders? Yeah, they can be used by pretty much everyone.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:01 am)And from that article, some in the press still don’t get it… “It will travel up to 31 miles on electric power alone, which isn’t really good for much.”
31 miles perfectly fits my 15 mile drive to work every day.
+9
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:10 am)But Honda is ok because they only shredded there electric cars instead of crushing them and Toyota stopped making and supporting them. Come on all the car company’s did the same at the time watch the film again!
Tom
+4
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:19 am)It takes several years to build a network of dealerships across the U.S. And it also takes many years to build up consumer confidence. In addition , China’s policies have started to cause some real animosity among U.S. consumers, so a large purchase like a car may be affected by that.
More than 5. GM, Ford, Fiat/Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Mercedes, BMW, VW, Hyundai, … – I’m sure I’m missing some here.
Over the last 3 years, many people have said there would be competition for the Volt, but it hasn’t materialized. That’s a huge problem. Without competition, potential customers will be more hesitant. They’ll say: “If this is such a great thing, how come nobody else is doing it?” So competition validates the market. In other words, GM would sell more Volts if they had competition.
Some people say the Plug-in Prius and Leaf are the Volt’s competition, but these are totally different vehicles. The Plug-in Prius still uses gasoline as its primary fuel source. The Leaf has problems with range and cold weather. These are major differences.
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:26 am)Did you see the part about Nimh patents?
Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:27 am)Amen. +1
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:29 am)I disagree, on both counts.
The combination of a Leaf and another car for longer trips will typically use more gas than the Volt.
And all things being equal (same battery cooling, same trim options, same manufacturing overhead, etc), an EREV-40 is cheaper to build than a BEV-100. In other words, an EREV-40 Leaf should be less expensive than a BEV-100 Leaf, because the range extender costs less than the extra batteries.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:31 am)Coda has a new electric car with 120 mile range in the city and 100 on highway for sale this year.
Some green car tests are conducted under very controlled conditions, with nervous company executives riding shotgun. Coda’s chief executive, Kevin Czinger, brought his company’s electric sedan into the hurly-burly of Times Square in Manhattan. The last time I rode in this car, it was in Greenwich, Conn.
Kevin Czinger, Coda’s president and chief executive.Dan Neville/The New York Times Kevin Czinger, Coda’s president and chief executive.
The Coda is a small battery-powered sedan with a much-modified Mitsubishi-licensed chassis that is made in China, where Coda also has a joint venture to produce lithium-ion batteries. The company said it was hoping to build a new battery plant in Ohio, but that would require a loan from the Energy Department.
“I think our chances are very good,” Mr. Czinger said. “The industrial logic is there. We are in series production with our own battery system, and we want to take our know-how and couple it to manufacturing in the U.S.”
Mr. Czinger, a fit, compact man with close-cropped hair, is his company’s best salesman, and he was behind the wheel for a spin around Times Square. It was a hot day with a lot of stop-and-go traffic, but Mr. Czinger said that an active forced-air thermal management system was keeping the Coda’s 33.8-kilowatt-hour battery pack cool. A ceramic heater is in place to keep it warm in colder temperatures. “Our battery system is in some ways over-engineered,” Mr. Czinger said.
Mr. Czinger saw a brief opening in traffic and the car darted forward, exhibiting the strong off-the-line performance inherent to battery vehicles. Coda claims a range of 120 miles in city traffic, and 90 to 100 on the highway. At a light, a man leaned in and asked about the car. “Take a look at Codaautomotive.com,” replied Mr. Czinger, ever the salesman. “It’s out this year.”
This year means the fourth quarter for actual consumer deliveries, a small setback in Coda’s original plans. According to Mr. Czinger, the company will start taking deposits at the end of July, and by late September it will have preproduction cars offering rides to would-be purchasers at small test-drive centers around California (the car’s sole initial market).
Mr. Czinger estimates that 60 percent of his early sales will be in fleet applications, 40 percent to individual consumers. To reassure customers concerned about the lack of a dealer network, Coda is working with Bridgestone/Firestone centers on servicing and AAA for roadside assistance. Home-based chargers, which Mr. Czinger said would meet at least 80 percent of his private customers’ charging needs, will be installed by the Sears/Kenmore electrician network.
In Coda’s rearview mirror, the Nissan Leaf has to loom large. Nissan’s battery car will be out around the same time and probably at around the same price as the Coda sedan. The Leaf also has the advantage of a built-in dealer network, a large media budget and brand familiarity. But Mr. Czinger says it will kick in its own marketing campaign at the end of July, in part wrapped around an Internet strategy.
So what’s the value proposition?
“We offer American technology in a car with a real rear seat and full trunk space,” Mr. Czinger said. “One hundred percent of what we do is clean technology, and we can talk about that to put butts in seats. Coda is a unique brand.”
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:31 am)+1 for stepping up to state goals.
However, it needs to be pointed out that they are rather ambiguous. Try this:
- PRICE: nicely under $30,000
- EFFICIENCY: 35-miles EV real-world & 40 mpg CS real-world
- EMISSIONS: SULEV rated
- POWER: 0-60 in around 10 seconds
- SIZE: 4-seat compact with average cargo area
- AVAILABILITY: dealer lot (preferred), within a month order (acceptable)
+15
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:43 am)Nissan is making GM marketing look lame. Completely lame. Here is the latest coup — Steve Jobs’ demo of the Nissan Leaf ad during the new iPhone rollout. Very innovative as it engages the user and has lots of neat features. Plus of course it’s now been seen by many eyeballs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdi2IrIf4wI
So what are the marketing people at Chevy up to? Great new stuff for the Volt? Maybe for the new Cruze? Oh, they’re focused on making sure everyone says “Chevrolet” rather than “Chevy”. I am not making this up. Here’s the story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/automobiles/10chevy.html?ref=automobiles
This is beyond useless. First of all, like Coke. Chevy is an instantly recognized brand immortalized in songs and emblazoned on the public conscious. What if it is shortened (as Coke is for Coca-Cola). Why change it? Second, it won’t work. People are going to call the brand what they call it. Third, it cuts against the trend to shorter and more informal names.
But mostly the focus on the name is simply a huge waste of time and reflects an unhealthy degree of self absorption. At some point you just have to wonder if GM needs to dump every last marketing executive and just start over. Maybe if GM had marketing people focused on customers and potential customers it would stop contemplating its navel and start actually marketing its products.
-4
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:49 am)GM was planning to build and sell EV’s for the India market but NOT sell them here in the US? Didn’t we bail them out? Yet we’re not worthy of an EV? That’s such bullshit!
-19
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:51 am)(click to show comment)
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:56 am)Couldn’t agree with you more Don C. But, if GM fires any more people with useless ideas like that, they are damned again and are accused of being directionless, and picking on poor, innocent company lifers, and kicking puppies, and…. See where this is going? Besides, I thought their latest hiring coup of Joel Ewanik (spelling?) was going to save them? Is this one of his ideas? If so, maybe he needs to be shown the door as well.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:56 am)Where is the bottleneck on an EV?
GM has: The battery pack, the electric drive train (when you leave the ICE out), the Voltec chassis (which has already been proven with Cruze body on it), and the Cruze body (wherever that comes from). So, from what we have all seen here, the BEV Cruze should be able to ramp up production almost immediately.
So, if REVA is out of the picture, how long would it take to convert AVEO chassis to accept Voltec chassis and battery system? Basically, is there a big difference in getting a chassis from Korea vs India?
It sure sounds like cold feet on getting electric cars on the road.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:01 am)I disagree. I know some here aren’t gonna like this, it’s just my opinion. But the name Chevy to me has a bit of a redneck feel. I didn’t grow up in a redneck family so when I heard the term Chevy it was usually rednecks arguing Chevy vs Ford during a debate over pick up trucks. This has left me with a bad feeling over the name to this day. I’m stoked about the Volt, and I also feel the name Chevrolet like Cadillac just sounds a little classier.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:15 am)This will be good for GM. Audi makes a worthy rival and will have a willing market in previous Audi owners who are also “greens.” Their use of a Wankel genset should give GM engineers something to think on.
“For an extended range of up to another 124 miles, the battery pack can be charged by an onboard 20-horsepower, single-rotor 253-cc Wankel rotary engine (fed by a 3.17 gallon fuel tank).
GO GM and VOLT!!!
-13
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:19 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:19 am)And don’t leave out a sporty 2-Seat-Hatchback model (to compete with Honda CRX/Z) with a price no more than $27,000. I would go for that!
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:21 am)“We don’t want them to be driving 300 miles a day. It’s all about managing expectations. Electric cars aren’t for everyone.”
Umm, please explain how someone could drive a LEAF 300 miles in a 24 hour period given the 100 mile range and the 21 hour (@110V) recharge time. Even at 220 it is unlikely they could travel 300 miles in 24hours.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:23 am)“We’ll even be advising some people not to buy,” said Andy Palmer, head of Nissan’s EV division. “We don’t want them to be driving 300 miles a day. It’s all about managing expectations. Electric cars aren’t for everyone.”
300 miles a day???? Not too many drivers would do that in an ICE vehicle now. SO if I needed to go a distance greater than a leaf can do……. I GUESS I WOULD BUY A VOLT!!!
If the Nissan guy is correct in pruning customers . Can we guess where those customers might be going???…
Looks like GM had better crank up production of the VOLT now to meet the new even higher demand in the fall.
Has anyone gone by the Hamtramck plant at night to see if they are producing cars in more than one shift?
-13
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:23 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:25 am)Dave G, I certainly respect your opinion on things, but you are showing some bias in your comments above.
If an EREV-40 is cheaper than a BEV-100 that would be great, but I stand by my comment that that a Leaf and a Volt in the same garage would be a better combo than two Leafs or two Volts.
If one person drives 70 miles in a day that person can drive the leaf. Thats an average commute to work and then off to a family activity after work. No gasoline needed. 2 Volts would cost more than 2 leafs and burn more gas at the same time.
The other thing that biased poster keep ignoring is there is plenty of demand for both of these cars in the first couple years and after that technology will improve and batteries will be cheaper, so you cannot use your 2010 analysis when we all know by the time production is ramped up in 2013 that battery costs will be significantly lower.
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:25 am)Fortunately we at GM-Volt are hardheaded realists and not biased at all. Question – what happens if Nissan can’t talk the early hand raisers into waiting for a nearer dealer to sell the cars or into waiting at all?
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:29 am)The ‘bottleneck’ is the cost and weight of a battery pack large enough to give an EV a decent range, along with the still extensive recharge time.
The LEAF will have (under the most ideal conditions) a 100 mile range. Nissan says it takes 21 hours to recharge at 110v, 8 hours if you have a specialized higher voltage/current recharging unit (which 90% of US home electric circuits cannot support).
This is the current ‘bottleneck’ keeping EVs from being practical. A solution is the air/Lithium batteries (1/3 the weight, higher energy density – they could give EVs 1,000 mile range potentially) currently in the last stages of R&D, they won’t be commercially available for another 5-8 years though.
+6
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:31 am)In your dreams, baby.
Reread today’s thread – it’s Nissan who is “shrieking” about range anxiety. At GM, it’s “chuckle, chuckle” as they watch Nissan scramble around warning their waiting list about the limited reality of the LEAF.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:35 am)Most might disagree with you on the Chevy vs. Chevrolet question but it doesn’t really matter. What does matter is that GM is focused on what is at best a quixotic effort with unclear payoffs rather than on marketing that actually sells cars and trucks. Where is the Volt ad for the iPhone? Oh, there isn’t one. Why bother do that when you can redesign the Cadillac logo once again.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/cadillac-redesigns-logo-again/
+7
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:35 am)Fast charge stations that could be at highway service areas in a few years can do 80% charge in 25 minutes. So basically you drive an hour, rest half an hour. Will work good for those with irritable bowel syndrome.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:37 am)A brand name is in the eye of the beholder. Chevy and Ford trucks indeed are the backbone of America vehicles ( redneck or not :+} ).
But also when I think of Chevy… I think of CORVETTE – the pinnacle of cool – and NOVA ( really hot little RED CONVERTIBLE) I drove when I was quite young.
And I always lusted after any Chevy that had the SS designation! Now with with the best electric car coming out soon the brand name CHEVY in front of VOLT makes a lot of sense. It is a car for everyone.
IMHO – Now if they would just add SS to it ….. VOLT SS extremely cool :+}
+6
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:44 am)Really? Diesel-electric train had batteries? Maybe you mean diesel-electric submarines.
-1
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:46 am)Let me modify. How could someone buying a LEAF this year be able to drive it 300 miles in a day?
I always like answers to technical questions that depend on non-existent technical capabilities. I am skeptical that there will be any rush to provide those charging stations and that the current batteries in the LEAF would be able to withstand the current/voltage required for an 80% charge in 25 minutes. If it takes 240V/40 amp to get the 8 hour recharge I think you’ll have to have a small nuclear power plant at each recharge station to generate the required amperage/voltage and the battery life would probably be reduced to 6 months or less due to stess induced by the high voltages if it didn’t burn up at the point of charging.
-2
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:47 am)The tables have turned. People criticized GM in the past for discouraging customers from buying the EV-1. Will people now start criticizing Nissan for doing the same thing? GM supposedly had thousands interested in the EV-1, but once the reality of range limitations hit potential customers, they started falling off the radar.
I personally don’t understand all the “fanboys” and defenders of the Leaf. It’s like being proud of owning and telling your friends of how great it is to have a cell phone you can only reliably use within your home town.
“Well, it shouldn’t be a problem, because we can use our family’s other cell phone for that, right?”
Yeah, riiiiight.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:49 am)So are you going to use a gas can to put gas in the Volt?
Or do you mean the odds of hitting someone again at the gas station are a whole lot less because you will be there with your Volt?
+8
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:50 am)Wang, Crotch, Anon (and those who believe gas engines are inherently EVIL):
Your assertion(s) that “The Leaf will quickly outsell the Volt simply because it is the one product that makes you drive without gas” (as Crotch puts it) are fundamentally flawed. In the first place, whenever you drive less than 40 miles a day in a Volt, you aren’t burning gas. However, the more important issue is this: If the target for buyers of alternate transportation are narrow-interest enthusiasts alone, no manufacturer will be successful mass-marketing them.
If you look somewhere beyond your hand mirrors, you’ll see that most Americans just want to get down the road in a reasonable/stylish/utilitarian/sporty fashion first. Environmental sensitivity or energy independence takes a back seat to those considerations. This isn’t the world as you would like to see it; this is the world as it is. Even the green poster-child Prius combines environmental awareness with style (why else does it sell so much better than other similar kinds of vehicle?).
Having said that, I think there is a certain premium people are willing to pay to get their cake and eat it too. In the current environment, the Volt has an overwhelming advantage over any “hey look at me” car which comes with compromises. You can continue to believe that Volt is somehow more evil even than a car which only has a gas engine, but as used by commuters it will save significant amounts of oil for the buyer (and for the nation, as many more of them can be sold to the uninitiated). Volt is an excellent way for Ma and Pa in Poughkeepsie to get their toes wet (if the car is offered there).
Consider that a happy EREV driver in 2015 will be twice as likely to buy an improved BEV in 2025 as an unhappy LEAF driver in 2015. No, current BEVs aren’t for everyone. Even Nissan says so.
-8
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:55 am)The Volt is most definitely NOT for everyone. I would kindly suggest the Volt is not for most people. Too expensive compared to similar gas car like its cousin the Chevy Cruze. Therefore just not good from a financial point alone. Now the Nissan LEAF makes much more sense at a very reasonable price.
I predict once a partial charging infrastructure is in place nationwide the Volt will disappear from the American roadway for good. The Volt is still an environmental death machine with its 1.4L smog engine.
With companies like Better Place and Coulomb building thousands of charging stations in the U.S. it will not take long to make a viable network of recharging stations. It actually does not take that many places strategically installed along the interstate highway system to make it possible for a real EV to traverse the country with ease.
+4
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:56 am)“With the REVA partnership ended, GM will move its pure EV development operation in-house to Detroit. ”
A good thing for the Michigan Economy and advancement of electric car research.
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:59 am)I will be there less often when I have a Volt.
It was the other guy’s fault anyway. He was in my way.
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:01 am)Perhaps, but having driven this country more than a few times, I can tell you these service stations don’t exist every 75-80 miles. Nor do they exist on every highway or stretch of road.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:03 am)This gulf of mexico spill is sure going to be helping publicise cars that use zero or very little gasoline (Leaf and Volt respectively)… amen to that!
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:07 am)Bill;
As I keep saying, it doesn’t matter the first few years as there is plenty of demand and early adopters for the limited production runs until 2013 (or 2012 when they are looking to demand in 2013). That in a nutshell is the big difference between BEV and EREVs at this point. BEVs are dependant on battery costs coming down 50% in a few years for them to go mainstream. EREVs win either way (cheaper batteries or BEV’s that can’t compete with EREVs).
But I think it is rather unlikely at this point to assume battery costs won’t drop significantly over next few years. So to say ‘nonexistant capabilities’ is like saying in 1983 not to get excited about personal computers because they cost too much. The capabilities are already on the drawing board, they are not pipe dreams.
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:09 am)The Leaf can charge to 80% in 26minutes on it’s 2nd high powered connector (440v, 3phase, high current)… but you’re not ever going to want to be charging a battery much faster than that. And it’s going to be inconvenient for a cross country drive to do that. Until there’s a network of 500mph monorails or something we’re going to need cars that take liquid fuel of some sort…
I think you’ll find the engine in the volt is a relatively large 1.6 litres. Early talk mentioned a 1.4 litre I believe but this was dropped. I think a 0.6 or 0.8 litre smart car engine would be more sensible as it’s only action is to behave like a generator.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:12 am)“with ease”? So driving 80 miles, stopping for at least 30 minutes to recharge ( assuming there isn’t a significant waiting line to get to the recharger – how many charging units per station can they reasonably (an economically) afford to have. Gas is distributed in a few minutes and the stations along the NJ turnpike have 10 pumps with 4-5 cars waiting for each pump and that’s with gas stations every 10-15 miles. Translate that to each car requiring 30 minutes minimum to ‘fill up’ (which is assuming a LOT of improvements in battery energy density and charging capacity – the LEAF requires 8 hours with 240/40amp to recharge) and you’ll not be stopping for 30 minutes, you’ll be spending 3-4 hours to get a ‘fill up’, overnight for major holidays.
That is ‘with ease’?
The only way you can get a reasonable ‘fill up’ time is if the battery packs on all cars are standard and you have a station with 500 or so charged batteries that they can switch out with each car. I haven’t seen ANY car manufacturer/s talking about doing that or developing the necessary standards.
The problem is that EV enthusiasts simply assume away all the technical issues with future technologies that may or may not happen or turn out to be implementable. Heck I have a Coloumb iPhone app in the DC area and there are ZERO charging stations within 50 miles of me
It will take 20 years or more to deploy the charging infrastructure you’re talking about.
-17
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:13 am)(click to show comment)
+7
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:14 am)This is becoming a very silly argument. Of course the Volt is not for everyone. There is not one single vehicle made that is for everyone. If it were otherwise, we would all be driving the same vehicle and there would be no need for variety.
+5
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:16 am)Would sure love the Voltec system in that Spark body.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:16 am)How are all four of you, and now all five of us, not narrow interest enthusiasts. I can’t wait to see all electrified vehicles hit the roads and I hope as many as possible are successful in terms of sales. And in celebration of our narrow interest enthusiasm and balkanization, despite what any one thinks of John 1701 a, the Prius is on the roads saving gas right now. And I look forward to it’s next iterations also.
No one form of transport will be a panacea, Volts, Leafs, trains, bio-fuels, NG, back packs that attach to intra city suspended wires, nothing will be a panacea.
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:19 am)Actually you bring up a good point that I’ve though about, as I’ve also driven cross country many times.
Those long stretches across Minesota, the Dakotas etc without service stations create opportunities to put service stations so that they are spaced 60 miles apart.
And I’m sure some readers will be thinking opportunities for towing services as well. I don’t like the idea of towing a trailer with a genset as if you are going to do that just rent a gasoline vehicle.
But undoubtedly in a few years we will be seeing people proudly saying they are among the pioneers of cross country drivers using electric only.
Every year motorcycles converge on Sturgis South Dakota. Maybe someone will organize a BEV rally out West somewhere as soon as there are routes with charging stations at 60 mile intervals.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:21 am)It is funny to see Nissan backpedal on the LEAF. Expect more of this as they realize the market is not fully prepared for pure EVs.
GM does not need a dog and pony show to sell the Volt. The market will take it up big time for one reason – it provides reliable transportation.
The average buyer is not stupid. People will quickly see through the marketing BS and figure out what makes sense and what does not.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:21 am)carcus3: What will be very interesting to watch, is if Nissan sells
as many BEV’s as they’ve got plans foronly a quarter of the BEVs they have plans for, and then have to recall half of those. Then GM management (and some fanboys) will haveto findsomethingbesides “range anxiety”toshriekcheer about.Fixed that for Ya.
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:23 am)DaveG, what if the Leaf driving family’s “other” car was a Volt?
Ech inYourCrotch, What if the Volt was the second car and used Biofuels to extend it’s range?
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:26 am)#27
That would be me, LOL. +1
-3
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:28 am)“The Leaf can charge to 80% in 26minutes on it’s 2nd high powered connector (440v, 3phase, high current)… but you’re not ever going to want to be charging a battery much faster than that. ”
That and the 220/240/40amp ‘home charging station for the LEAF will cost around $2500 and that gets you an 8 hour recharge time instead of the 21 hours from standard house current. Home circuits cannot support 440v/3phase/ (Coloumb’s units are 480 volt/125amp not 440 3phase).
I am highly skeptical of the claim that the Coluomb can recharge a LEAF to 80% in 30 minutes given that it takes 8 hours at 240/40amp, that and I’m pretty certain you’re going to have a significant effect on battery life/performance if you consistently use 125+ amps to recharge it. I don’t think battery technology is that far advanced yet.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:32 am)We’re all enthusiasts here, and that’s the point. How many are on our wait list? How many potential buyers are there out there? The difference in number is considerable. What happens when Ma and Pa go home with a LEAF having normal-car expectations? What happens when they go home with a Volt? Again, big difference.
BEVs may serve some enthusiasts now, but a Volt can serve everyone (without having to wait for infrastructure to appear).
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:36 am)#42
Genset trailer, LOL.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:43 am)#58
Amen. +1
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:45 am)Option 2 on your list is already a stated future development (don’t know warranty details this far out, though).
The thing I’d like to see which isn’t on your list is more than 40 miles with an 8 year 100K mile warranty (the old four-seat body with the newer smaller batteries filling the “T” shape). How much I would be willing to pay would depend on a number of factors: the exact number of all electric miles achievable per charge, the costs for BEVs at the time, the type of range extender used.
I think the real ‘car of the future’ is an EREV80 – 100 with a tiny range extender (like a wankel, nutating or two-cylinder engine). It would be hard even for BEV200 – 300 to compete with this, IMO.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:45 am)I believe first year production of Volt will be less than 20,000 units. That will be one of the smallest volumes ever produced for a new car in U.S. history. So don’t look for a Volt in your neighbors driveway anytime soon that’s for sure.
The Nissan LEAF is poised to dominate the EV market from the beginning. If I’m not mistaken it will also be the first mass market EV produced in America and is scheduled to hit the road before the Volt hits the showroom floor.
Also GM has NO assembly plant in the World dedicated to Volt only production. They are simply putting the Volt alongside a high-volume plant that will be making regular gasoline cars on the primary line. Under no circumstance will the Volt become the only line at that plant therefore if demand where to somehow increase for Volts the GM would have a difficult time increasing production without opening additional plants which cannot be done in short order. Yes GM has flexible assembly line but none of them are designed for Volt only production and if they where it would defeat the whole reason for a flex assembly line to begin with and GM would lose more money making Volts on said line.
The Volt is destined to become a niche market that will remain relevant only until the EV market takes off. I would estimate the Volt’s maximum lifespan of 5 years which is about average for new car but the Volts production numbers will be much lower than average during its 5 year run. From a sheer numbers standpoint the Volt is totally irrelevant.
The best GM can hope for is some of the Halo Effect (which Toyota currently dominates) rubs off on the Volt to make the average American see GM as a green company. The jury is still out on whether they can even make that happen.
+4
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:50 am)People do want variety when it comes to choosing their vehicles, especially us sp oiled Americans. I get so tired of hearing the arguments of which vehicles are better. If people would first try and drive more conservatively and when it’s time to purchase another vehicle try to choose one that pollutes less and gets better mpg or better yet uses electricity as part of the fuel equation we will get to our common destination.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:54 am)That would only happen if they take away the LEAF and crush them all. I don’t see it happening.
We are at the dawn of the electric car revolution and it’s not going back.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:57 am)It is a self fulfilling prophecy. Lyle builds a website about an EREV. People who are convinced that the best car is an EREV conglomerate here.
If I was convinced the BEV was the next step in the progression, I’d be hanging out on one of the several good BEV websites. So would many of the other regulars.
-1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:59 am)I would submit and endorse the car. But alas, the bloddy blokes at GM decided against this. It would’ve at least made the Volt “Carbon Neutral”.
That’s just my opinion though.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:00 am)It would never happen to you if you bought a LEAF. The Volt does burn some gasoline after all.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:01 am)Would a genset trailer that you rent at the dealership be acceptable?.. not a big one but something that will allow you indefinite range at 55mph. It could use a castering monowheel for those that dont know how to drive a trailer. Can use E85 for those that want to save the planet.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:01 am)Put the same tariff Japan puts on VOLT and see how leaf pre orders they get!
-4
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:01 am)Why is so much time begin spent comparing Volt to LEAF. They are totally different cars and aimed at totally different markets.
The Volt is clearly a hybrid car that will compete against today’s hybrids like the Toyota Prius, Honda Insight, Ford Fusion, etc.
The LEAF is a true EV that will compete with tomorrow’s EV like the Telsa Model S, BMW MiniE, Mercedes and about 30 other fully electric car brands soon to arrive onshore.
Best to stop comparing these two different platforms already. The real question is can the Volt actually compete against the Toyota Prius ? That is the hybrid competition the Volt was built to compete against. My guess would be the plug-in Prius and any previous version will greatly outsell the Volt in the marketplace so it will be very interesting to see how long GM will continue building a car that absolutely cannot be a leader in its category.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:04 am)The patent encumbrance ends this very month.
Too bad for the NiMH makers because the Li-ION battery passed them right on by.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:12 am)#61
Amen to that indeed! +1
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:14 am)Perhaps you are right. This article however details how they are backpedaling due to selling more than they can build.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:15 am)DON”T YOU REALLY MEAN:
It MAY never happen if you where to actually purchase a Volt.
-or-
It will NEVER happen once I, Rashiid Amul, purchase my Nissan LEAF
(just say it you know you want to)
Your welcome, I thought that is what you meant to say and absolutely no need to thank me for clearing that up for everybody
+4
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:16 am)At the risk of agreeing with a comment that was hidden due to heavy negative voting, I must say that the Volt is simply NOT a car for everyone as Lyle and others have stated. To be sure, I’m a huge fan and may buy one of the first ones since I’m in the DC area but there are literally millions of people that can’t afford new cars and so only buy used. There’s millions more that would only buy a car that is under $15k or $25k or $30k.
The capability of the Volt is such that it would fit into the driving style and typical driving pattern of far more drivers than a BEV ever will but to state that it is a car for everyone is simply not factual. This in no way diminishes the huge potential success that the Volt may have (and I fervently wish for) but facts are facts.
I say this as a believer in NPNS.
PS Is Tagamet okay?
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:16 am)And this event is creating a vacuum in the energy delivery business that will need filling for 10+ years. Very exciting and long overdue.
=D-Volt
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:21 am)#67
Me too. +1
Or a BEV, come to that. I am coming to the point where I might try a reasonably priced, freeway capable, BEV. My commute is 25 miles, and I can plug into 110 at work. If I can plan/discipline my side trips after work, I can probably make it work. It has to be a GM product though, so come on Spark!
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:22 am)Lyle,
Please capture this guys ip address and block him. He’s spending the whole day trolling our board & i’m tired of it.
Erin Mccrotch, Wang Hunglow, and as i like to call him rice burning pale faced celestial off our board.
God forbid he goes over to the Leaf’s fan site and post a comment that provides some intelectual opinion.
P.S. where’s Statik? all pissy because there is no “GM is going belly up” articles left to write? Funny how now that we are in the final stretch and GM is out of the woods, and the volt is like 6 months away, he is nowhere to be found…….
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:23 am)Thanks for throwing out the seigway…
In 11 days my new job title is “windmill design engineer”
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:23 am)Zachary Taylor (Jackson) @ 56
+1 right on.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:25 am)#78
Works for me. +1
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:27 am)I’m going to guess the issue is battery life:
Battery is good for x discharge/recharge cycles
Driving 300 mi. day requires at least 3 discharge/recharge cycles… probably 4+ more realistically… but lets go with 3
Driving 300 mi. day reduces the expected useful life at least 3 times faster than if you drove <100 mi. day. Add to that the battery is air cooled so probably doesn't disipate heat very efficiently and the heat generated during charging and that battery would probably quickly begin to dissapoint with that much usage.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:29 am)#80
OMG, the voice of reason! +1
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:30 am)I’d be tickled pink with an EREV60. And maybe a back pack sized extend-a-range snap-connected rental pack from time to time. That would handle 99%+ of what I need all electrically.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:31 am)No offense intended, but I think you’re wrong. The Volt is an ALL Electric car with a ICE range extender. I can agree it is a hybrid between a hybrid and a pure electric like the Leaf. When the Volt is actually on the street, we’ll start hearing reports of some drivers going for months! without using any gasoline. Really, are we talking something a Prius can do?
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:34 am)Watch the movie dumbass. GM crushed it because it was a big loss of money. No profit. There was demand but the cost to build and the price of gas as well as almost never advertising it killed then GM crushed it. This begs the question, if everyone here says mass production reduces the cost of the product, why didn’t they just mass produce them? That’s right, CARB relaxed the requirements………CRUNCH!!!
Oh yeah, backpedaling is what GM does best.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:38 am)#96
VERY COOL! +1
Let us know how it goes. I think that many of us would be very interested. I know that I would. Best of luck.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:39 am)I think Tag is on vacation.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:41 am)Very good point.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:42 am)#95
Actually, he posted a couple of comments here yesterday.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:42 am)don’t you worry, they will sell them all, do not forget that nissan is in alliance with Renault and they partnered with BP project, add to that the situation in middle east (specifically Gaza) and they could easily sell hundreds of thousands of cars there and in other small country’s like Denmark. I wouldn’t worry to much for Goshn’s chair.
@ John W (Tampa) Says @#5
you cannot make a pure serial hybrid with a battery smaller that 16kwh. A smaller baterry would not have enough POWER density.
-11
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:45 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:46 am)And here I was about to give you a +1 for having a great idea, but then the asshole in you showed up. I should have known that you won’t change. Statik is always here. Do you actually look? He posted yesterday. Perhaps the blurp blurp is meant for people like you?
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:49 am)Billy you got it all wrong. These are RAPID CHARGING stations, they can charge a LEAF in a few minutes. And Nissan has already stated that next LEAFs will get 200-300 mile range. So your numbers just don’t jive with the facts. Your arguments appear to be agenda driven and nothing you can say will stop the Nissan EV from hitting the highways and conquering America.
Sorry but nice try.
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:51 am)That’s awesome news…and so excited that you even spelled it seigway. Exciting times, I hope you enjoy every minute of it.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:04 pm)Here is what Nissan claims:
http://www.hybridcars.com/news/13-key-questions-and-answers-about-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-and-ordering-28007.html
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:05 pm)With VOLT, GM can build its EV rep. Buyers get a better then comparable ICE for the money, take no risk, and retain value. No ‘pure’ EV right now or in the very near future is comparable–not Tesla-not anybody. Fisker’s a fantasy. There needs to be a Gen 2; maybe two-three times power increase evolution. Naturally, GM must be politically correct – so there could be a showcase Gen 1 ‘pure’ EV at 2011 car shows. Maybe a fuel cell version.
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:06 pm)Ewww, man that is not a nice looking ride…See what I mean, balkanized, the more the merrier for me though. If I ever see an electric Spark in that noxious color driving through the streets of greater Norwalk I will laugh ’till I cry.
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:07 pm)According to GM the Chevy Volt is a SERIES HYBRID designed vehicle. It is not an EV but rather a type of HYBRID.
The Nissan LEAF operates at a much higher level and is not a hybrid by any means.
The Nissan LEAF is a true EV. It is just semantics but marketing folks love to confuse the buyer.
It would behoove GM Marketing department to steer clear of deceptive advertising.
Have a nice day.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:10 pm)Hmm, maybe a 2C charge rate there, not very hard on the battery at all. Many hobby lipos are up to a 6C charge rate, with no major effects on life (although nobody expects them to last 10 years). Each individual cell doesn’t see the 125+ amps.
Wow, you can tell junior high school is out now, with all the silly account names and obnoxious trolling posts. I’m reminded of watching Beavis and Butthead many years ago… Funny how many of us old-timers grab the hook so easily.
James Huber, nice article perhaps (although off-topic) about the Coda, but why not just paste a link, instead of copy/pasting the entire article?? Jeez. There could also be copyright issues with doing this.
-11
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:20 pm)(click to show comment)
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:27 pm)Well, there’s nothing I can say after that, other than well said. It is going to be a culture change.
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:29 pm)Only problem with that statement is there are no unhappy LEAF drivers to be found. Never have been and never will be. We love our LEAFs and have no need to buy an “improved” BEV when we only need to upgrade our existing battery with the LEAF-500 edition which swaps out in less than an hour at the local dealership or one of Nissan’s approved shops or charging centers located throughout the nation.
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:32 pm)Cool Idea — my view is that “THE FUTURE” is going to look different and kinda kooky — but I like tubes myself. I saw a shocker yesterday — a Prius getting a ticket, makes me laugh.
For me, the best selling point about the Volt is:
1) 100% torque at 0rpm
2) Having a powerful ICE available to help out the poor battery pack after extended periods of 100% throttle.
3) Charging at night — always having 40 electric miles in the morning.
4) Skipping gas stations, saving on gas.
5) 8 second 0-60 isnt too bad either.
6) Its quiet.
Its #2 on my list. But I will keep it clean, so it won’t be a dirty ICE.
Please capitalize acronyms, it bugs me a little — but I am trying to adjust.
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:35 pm)Thanks… what would be the proper spelling?
It’s a company that is going for the niche between the little turbines and utility units. The utility turbines are pretty mature and no one is breaking into it. The market in the little units is swarming with lots of players. There’s not much going on where we will be.
Right now you can’t fill your gas tank with one of our turbines. In less than 180 days you can.
-10
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:36 pm)(click to show comment)
+10
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:41 pm)What don’t some of you people understand? CLEARLY, there is a market for both pure BEVs and EREVs. It is so obvious, there should be no debate on this whatsoever. You will never convince someone who does not want any oil in their car that they “need” a range extender for their BEV. On the same token, a BEV enthusiast will never convince an EREV enthusiast that 100 miles/charge (or 200+ miles/charge for that matter) will be enough range for long trips.
The answer? The market is craving BOTH products and that is why there is interest for BOTH the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt. If Nissan & GM were smart, they would realize this and already begin the groundwork for an EREV version of the Leaf and a pure BEV version of the Volt.
I personally believe there is a customer for each of the following type of vehicle:
BEVs
EREVs
PHEVs
HEVs
ICE
BEV customer: does not want to use any foreign oil whatsoever. They are just fine with a limited 100 mile range per charge and will adjust their life accordingly to make their statement and be 100% free of using any fuel of any kind. Perfect 2nd vehicle for a family with two cars or a single city dweller (or just outside the city dweller) who generally stays local.
EREV customer: does not want to use foreign oil. However, sees the benefits of having a fuel range extender due to longer trips or using their vehicle for extended period of time without having to charge it up. Perfect solution for a single person or a small family with only “1″ car.
PHEV customer: similar to an EREV customer, however, cares more about achieving high MPG numbers than they do about getting off fossil fuels. May or may not plug-in their car daily for extended MPG. A step-up for traditional hybrid customers.
HEV customer: wants high mpg. They don’t want to be bothered with a plug or looking for an outlet to charge up. They want to start their car and go, while knowing they’re doing their part to help the environment and getting great gas mileage in the process.
ICE customer. let’s be honest, there will always be people who just want a big V6/V8 under their hood.
Anyway, IMO, both the Volt & Leaf will be a success and hit their sales goals. It won’t take very long before both brands realize that the other is selling well and put out their own version of their competitors successful product. Then expect Toyota & Ford to jump on board with theirs
Mark my words, neither the Leaf or Volt will be a flop. BOTH will sell well to different customers. But please, let’s get off this Leaf vs. Volt nonsense. They are not competitors, yet both are new products that appeal to EV enthusiasts on different parts of the spectrum.
My prediction is the Leaf will probably outsell the Volt initially, based solely on the limited range of the Volt (40 miles AER is not enough to get excited about IMO). However, once the Volt increases the AER of the Volt to around 80 miles (perhaps in generation 2?), then I think we’ll see more interest and sales for the Volt that may start to beat out the Leaf’s sales. But really, they’re not true competitor’s from the start, so let’s not bash each product and minimize the importance of both. We NEED both to succeed and I think both of them will.
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:42 pm)I agree with all that you stated and especially the part quoted above… You get an “attaboy” and it “works for me”
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:52 pm)My bad.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:56 pm)“We’ll even be advising some people not to buy,” said Andy Palmer, head of Nissan’s EV division. “We don’t want them to be driving 300 miles a day. It’s all about managing expectations. Electric cars aren’t for everyone.”
I did not read all the posts, so someone may have addressed this angle —- But do you think if Nissan did not sell out production, they would want to make sure the technology fit the buyer? Remember I am a Skeptic… LOL. It is wonderful to have & show concern when there is nothing to lose! If were undersold, they would be pushing these on homeless people as a low cost RV to live out of.
-1
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:57 pm)Not even one day. Nissan is evil. How dare they be bold, tough competitors! Hmmm… I’m sure that ‘Nissan’ is an anagram for something bad. Let’s see… ninja, assassin, as*man…
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:57 pm)True EV. True conservative. True progressive. True BS.
Amazing how some arrogate to themselves the right to decide what is “true”. The Volt is an EREV. If you don’t like it don’t buy it. But the fact you don’t want to buy it doesn’t mean it’s not “true”.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:59 pm)Obviously the infrastructure for that is not in place yet, but people are working on it.. the cars are not even in the market yet. Nissan sells the 25 minute chargers for about $17k in Japan, once they start to sell them here you will see 10 of them pop in at every hwy rest station. That is a LOT cheaper than a gas pump with its associated environmental permits and underground tanks.
The battery in the LEAF has been designed from day one to accept 80 miles of range in 25 minutes, without much strain.. the next generation of the LEAF, around 2015, will possibly have a 200 mile pack so that will extend the range a bit.
In any case you must admit that there are people that never drive that far in one day.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:06 pm)Lyle, just to help new readers, I should point out that there was a typo in the sixth paragraph. The erroneous word was “vehicle” which we seasoned disciples of this site know is correctly spelled “vehilce” . But we understand, time is short and there’s much to type!
-1
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:09 pm)We know how this one will play out. GM will create only 2 packs, the 16kw and the 8 kw and change the software to adjust the behavior of the pack according to the option selected.
Only two packs make it possible to manage inventory and get economy of scale.
-14
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:17 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:18 pm)I shouldn’t go for the hook but… For the record several of my hobby batteries are lithium manganese (Apogee Magnums), and the recommended charge rate (from 3 or 4 years ago) was 2C. Unfortunately they are no longer available. I mostly use them in the winter since they are less affected by the cold than regular lipos.
Are you kids this disrespectful to adults in person? Oh well, have fun with your future career at Walmart or Taco Bell.
-10
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:23 pm)(click to show comment)
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:25 pm)#19
Sorry about that. What a pain. Oh well, nobody’s perfect. I backed into a guy coming out of a parking stall in a coffee shop parking lot once. Talk about embarrassing! All it takes is one second’s lapse of attention, which we all do every day. Try not to take it too seriously. Best regards.
-12
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:30 pm)(click to show comment)
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:33 pm)#115
Well I can’t argue with you there, LOL. I can’t see the Cd being all that great either. Maybe they could “Voltize” the front sheetmetal a bit. One can hope. Still, small, light, US made – I can live with the styling if I have to.
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:46 pm)#121
We had a big news item here in SoCal a couple of years ago about some mini-celebrity, Al Gore’s son if memory serves, getting a ticket for driving a Prius 105 mph on the freeway. Most people said, “Good for the Prius, who knew it would go that fast.”, LOL
Is that anything like “yellow snow”?
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:46 pm)You probably meant to say the LEAF operates at a lower level than the Volt. LEAF = Volt – Genset.
Have a nice day as well.
+5
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:47 pm)If GM built a real EV comparable to the Leaf (seat 5, 100mi range, price same), I would buy it first.
Keeps America working and lose the dependency on the mutahf#$%$ oil Shieks/Prince.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:48 pm)#122
Segue
-11
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:52 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (1:58 pm)Umm – I dont know about everyone but for me – the Volt WILL BE a BEV Almost everyday. If I decide to go out of town I will not need to rent a car. We all know that the 100 mile range of the Leaf while great ( I am excited that it will be an option for buyers ) Will not be adequate. My Family lives 150 miles away on the highway. If I want to visit in a leaf I would need minimum 1 recharge, possibly 2 ( I really doubt the highway rage will be 75 miles). In my volt i will get part way there and will use maybe 2.5 gallons of E85 (produced in state-Version 2 volt).
When I return home my car will once again be a BEV for the following week. As a family of 3 with a single car the ecological and economic impact of owning 2 vehicles would be greater than owning a single vehilce that can fulfill all my needs.
For Long vacations I enjoy amtrack…
-15
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:02 pm)(click to show comment)
-5
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:05 pm)I salute you.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:08 pm)Loose that roof rack. I think a EV Spark would sell very well with a 100 mile range. I would buy one.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:12 pm)Good then you can design an affordable windmill for the average families back yard than can tie into a net meter.
I like the idea of the wind cube (see link). These are sort of big and for commerical use, but for homes they use a tunnel to increase the wind speed so that small amound of wind still turns the turbines.
http://www.frames.uk.com/art_tutorials/view.php?video=as3bSd3nGcE&feature=youtube_gdata&title=%27Wind+Cube%27+powering+first+northern+Ohio+building
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:14 pm)False Ass
umption:Only problem with that statement is there are no unhappy LEAF drivers to be found.
Never have been and never will be. We love our LEAFs and have no need to buy an “improved” BEV when we only need to upgrade our existing battery with the LEAF-500 edition which swaps out in less than an hour at the local dealership or one of Nissan’s approved shops or charging centers located throughout the nation.This is because there are no LEAF drivers at all, just yet.FTFY
Oh, and if you think old LEAFs will get new longer-range batteries in 4 – 5 years, you’re dreaming. Nissan (or any manufacturer) would far rather sell you a whole new car — with the new “200 mile” battery as part of the design. 500? As in 500 miles per charge? Not in a decade, probably not in two. Such a quantum leap would be far too dependent on high-amp, “pay to charge” stations which won’t appear in any quantity until almost mid-century. The 500 mile range battery, if it appears, will definitely be limited to a vehicle designed to carry it.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:21 pm)So this vehicle doesn’t exist?:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/motorcycles/reviews/4342510
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/fuel-economy/4342210
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:21 pm)Matthew,
That sounds like a very awesome job and a lot of fun.
Good luck with it.
– Rashiid.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:36 pm)Volt is as at least as far removed from the Prius as it is from the LEAF. There will never be an all-electric Prius without a total redesign. An all-electric Volt could simply substitute an engine-shaped battery pack for the generator.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:39 pm)I disagree. The reason the Volt isn’t for everyone is the higher price. Keep in mind, price is the #1 factor for most people. If you can’t afford something you can’t afford it, no matter how great. (If it price wasn’t a factor we’d all be driving Ferarris) I know as far as I’m concerned the Volt is out of reach for me, while the Leaf is something I can buy. Which is what makes it so attractive.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:46 pm)It would, of course, be much better if the Volt were less expensive. Hopefully, this will be sooner in coming than many of us think. In any case, much of what we hope for this architecture is a ‘future’ scenario as much as public fast-charging stations are. Wheels have to hit the road and roll awhile before any of these cars can be purchased “used.”
Since most early EV owners will have more funds than most other car buyers, I think it’s a fair comparison to say: “If money were no object, the Volt is physically capable of filling virtually all conceivable driving styles. No matter how much or how little is paid for one, this is not going to be true for a BEV.” Of course, if you do have lots of money, a BEV isn’t likely going to be your only car in the first place …
+4
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:49 pm)Interestingly enough, BEV cars actually pre-date serial hybrid locomotives. So which of the two is really the “old technology?” What a foolish metric.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:53 pm)Oh, thanks for calling me a dumbass. I’ve seen the movie. It’s like all other documentaries… one sided and doesn’t explain the entire truth in order to strengthen its side of the story.
Bowling for Columbine? Yeah, you can get a gun at every bank in the U.S. And us Canadians always keep our doors unlocked.
Sicko? Canadian Healthcare is wonderful? I’ve been dealing with a painful back and leg that started at work, and nearly 6 months later and dealing with extended medical insurance (yes, not all medical coverage in Canada is free)… I’m still in pain.
Who Killed the Electric Car? The cost of gas not being much more than electricity at the time didn’t help. A that time, and even today, viable electric cars that can replace 100% of gas-powered cars do not exist. It takes hours to charge them, and still about 30 minutes to fast charge them at stations would might as well exist only in fairy tales. Rabid electric car fans think that they’re in the majority, but since they flock together, they think that their numbers are huge. Most people aren’t OCD about the environmment, they just want a car they suits their needs and they can afford. Electric car fanatics don’t think about the car in the eyes of the regular consumer and its high costs… here is a video of a Tesla driver saying how wonderful his electric car is, until he gets shot down with reality (also known as “pricing”) towards the end of the video. It’s quite funny, actually:
http://d8.allthingsd.com/20100604/d8-video-ford-ceo-alan-mulally-tells-jason-calacanis-why-were-not-going-to-drive-electric-cars-anytime-soon/
P.S. Honda, Ford, and others had their electric cars killed along with GM’s, but since it was the most discussed electric car in the documentary, I guess GM is the only evil car company, right?
At this point, the Volt is the way to go. Electric drive for most driving, but the range extender makes it a viable alternative to any gas-powered car. Well, besides special purpose vehicles like trucks, vans, etc.
Jun 10th, 2010 (2:56 pm)… and what if both packs can be installed in the original “T” battery space (not the pack space of the Volt which will be offered with either of those packs)? You’d have your EREV60 …
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (3:02 pm)Something smells.
Go change your diaper.
Come back when you’re old enough to carry on a meaningful conversation with adults.
Jun 10th, 2010 (3:02 pm)Mark my words…..even at a higher price, the Volt will be considered a better buy than the LEAF.
This is because buyers will judge the Volt for all the positive things it offers, while the LEAF will be judged by the things it lacks. People want more if they pay more; the Volt delivers on all counts, the LEAF fails.
Jun 10th, 2010 (3:06 pm)There was a article earlier this year that confirmed the Gen 2 Volt will be E-85 ready. It is on this site somewhere. I am currently on a 2010 Prius Lease that expires June 2013 – That is my anticipated Volt purchase date. I dont expect to see any in IA before then anyways.
Thanks – Nothing better then relaxing with a beer in one hand and an ipod in the other as you watch the country go by without worrying about what a-hole driver is going to run you off the road… In many cases it is cheaper than driving and is almost always cheaper than flying.
Jun 10th, 2010 (3:43 pm)Yes he is. He said, “a week away at the NC shore. First vacation in years (way too many years). Looking forward to the quiet and alone time.”
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (3:43 pm)Yikes, this place is crawling with roaches…….
Jun 10th, 2010 (3:55 pm)That’s a nice way of putting it. This site is being taken over by them.
Jun 10th, 2010 (4:16 pm)“and decided foreign oil was better”
I actually think there was an engineering decision that lead to that choice. The gasoline could sit in the tank for 6 months or longer and E85 may not survive sitting for 6 months in a tank.
Jun 10th, 2010 (4:20 pm)Or one very determined multi-headed roach…..
+4
Jun 10th, 2010 (4:21 pm)Chevy Volt the car for everyone, but will be available to almost no one!
Jun 10th, 2010 (4:34 pm)Remember all my nagging to study hybrid history?
That was advice to prepare for this, since the very same thing happened in the past.
Those wanting to undermine will exploit weaknesses, like the absense of clear goals.
Jun 10th, 2010 (4:43 pm)lol. Yes. I do remember.
But it is not just ignorance here today. Idiots have joined us and now live among us.
+6
Jun 10th, 2010 (4:49 pm)John, that’s an explanation of how someone can do what people (today’s word is roach I guess) are doing again today.
There is no explanation for why some adults’ only purpose in life is to tear down and belittle others just because they don’t agree with them. As someone has said earlier, they should frequent a blog where they can make a positive statement about something. I for one just can’t relate to a mind set that says, “lets find a group of people that are interested in something and spend time telling them how stupid they are.” Civil discourse with disagreement is one thing, this stuff is just sad. It’s just, “let’s see how miserable we can make life for someone, then we’ll feel good.”
The phrase “get a life” is what comes to mind most often. You and carcus have your ups and downs, and provide mostly civil discourse, but this group is in another class all together.
-4
Jun 10th, 2010 (4:50 pm)I think GM is making a big mistake in developing the technology so publicly. All of the competition knows about it in details. This makes me feel like the volt is just a project car for them, widely publicized but not available. They really should be learning from the leaders (AAPL?). Develop great product, present it and set the date of availability within two-three months. I think after 3 years a lot of people getting tired of hearing about Volt, it is very hard to keep public interest focused for so long. Now that gas prices are low and GM is making money how badly do they need this car? Are they going to scrap it after a year of limited production for luck of consumer interest? We shell see…
-3
Jun 10th, 2010 (4:59 pm)Funny I still see Rav-4 EV’s and Ford Ranger EV’s but No EV-1.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (5:05 pm)That’s just it. The Leaf IS a true EV, with all of the attendant liability of range. Most American drivers are likely to find that a severe drawback. You cannot, practically, drive across the country, accross the state, between cities, or make many unplanned excursions around town after work in a “true” EV. The Volt on the other hand combines 80-90% of the Leaf’s advantage (driving all electric) with NONE of that very severe liability.
You have a nice day, too.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (5:21 pm)It won’t be long before we see the first EV Outlet dealership. Offering 6 or 7 models and an EV specific service department. GM says they will raise production on the Volt to a number short of full consumer demand. Other manufacturers will be jumping in with their EV and lower demand on the Volt. Will take a few years. But, the Volt will eventually be sitting in stock at a GM dealer.
=D-Volt
Jun 10th, 2010 (5:30 pm)I assume that means you’ve lost 30 percent, correct? so instead of 100 miles you’d get 70?
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (5:39 pm)Why would I want to spend an extra 6,000 to 10,000 dollars for a 80 mile Volt when I only drive 30 to 40 miles a day like most Americans. This is why the Volt is perfectly engineered.
Jun 10th, 2010 (5:53 pm)Never. Nissan is not going to take their LEAFs away and crush then.
Jun 10th, 2010 (5:55 pm)You are exactly right ZT, I was associated with a Japanese company for 30 years, and that is exactly how they operate. If the FTC doesn’t require it, they don’t even sell repair parts, for what they call old stuff.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:06 pm)They could simply intersperse the big cells in the packs with foam or metal filler cells so as to keep the car properly balanced. This would require very little extra work. You could have a 4kw with 4kws usable pack in the same size T pack as the 16kw pack. It may seem a bit wasteful of space but if it cuts the pack down from 10k to 2,500, it would be well worth it for some. This 4k usable 2,500 dollar pack would still get people close to 7,300 electric miles a year with one charge a day.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:18 pm)If there is anything GM needs less than “Volt Marketing Executives” it is hard to imagine who that would be. Put the few available Volts in the hands of those who want and are willing to pay for them. Start selling the initial production now you idiots. If it doesn’t sell out in a week, then think about advertising. I would like number 2 after Lyle gets number 1.
-1
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:19 pm)If Nissan can sell a BEV with a 100 mile AER, I see no reason why GM couldn’t do something similar with the Volt and price it competitively (albeit at a higher price based on complexity). We don’t know the price of the Volt as it is thus far, so we cannot say for sure that if they doubled the AER come generation 2, that the price (whatever it may be) won’t remain the same. The cost of batteries should come down in a few years as mostly everyone is speculating, so the situation you are referring to will most likely not happen (at least not at $10,000 premium).
40 miles AER is not very much in my opinion and is just not very appealing to me if I’m being honest. Even 50 miles AER would make the Volt much more interesting for me and other potential buyers like me. Personally? I drive about 70 miles/day. So I doubt I will ever go through a day without using gas if I purchased a Volt and that is the truth.
If only they could combine the AER of the Leaf and combine it with the Volt’s range extender, then GM would have a real winner on their hands. Too bad they couldn’t offer the Volt with 2 battery pack options for AER (40 & 80). They could charge a premium for people that need or want the extra 40 miles and it might appeal to a much wider audience.
But 40 miles AER is a decent start, so we’ll see what happens.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:29 pm)#141
OMG, we agree on something! +1
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:38 pm)If they are series connected, then each sees total amperage. Parallel connections have severe balancing problems.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:46 pm)The Volt will have low sales because of low production. What isn’t built isn’t sold.
Jun 10th, 2010 (6:59 pm)I’d say the somewhat serious mistake GM made was not going hybrid/electric wholeheartedly like Toyota, post EV1. However, they’re currently doing a credible job rectifying that error.
Jun 10th, 2010 (7:23 pm)That would be because the LEAF has not been built to satisfy an idiotic government mandate and wasn’t thrown together like the EV-1 was.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:00 pm)You would think GM would jump on getting the eSpark out to compete with the Nissan Leaf. Because it’s smaller, it would probably get even more miles per charge. That would be a consideration for many thinking of an all electric option. Come on GM get with it!
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:05 pm)For what they do (utility turbines) the progress has been amazing. Lots of basic research applied. Bigger turbines are more efficient, but phenomenally expensive. And the debate continues on use of state of the art transmissions or direct drive versions. In this case mature technology takes huge amounts of capital and serious dedication to improve. I hope it continues to improve, with higher efficiencies and rock solid reliability and doesn’t all go offshore.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (8:59 pm)Sure, no problem.
7 PM Fri: Arrive home from work. Check that Leaf is fully charged.
8 PM: Leave home, get on the freeway traveling at a cautious 50 MPH.
10:15 PM: Arrive at RV park 100 miles from home. Plug into 50A 220v circuit.
10:30: Eat the picnic dinner your wife had prepared.
11 PM: Recline the seats and try to get some sleep.
6 AM Sat: Wake up with a Thermos of lukewarm coffee and slip out of the park. Thankfully you had disabled the beep, beep, beep so you don’t wake anybody. Back on the freeway at 50 MPH.
8:15: Arive at the next RV park, now 200 miles from home. Had to wait 15 minutes for the manager to show up. Finally got plugged in at 8:45. You and your wife look at each other and groan. Both of your backs ache, but you didn’t sleep very well last night so you are both dead tired. You recline the seats for a nap.
11:30: The two of you stagger over to the RV park canteen for some hot food. Not like home cooked, but who cares.
12:30: You walk twice around the park’s “nature trail” to stretch your muscles, then go back to the car and sit there with glazed eyes listening to whatever CDs you happened to have in the car.
4:45: The Leaf is fully charged again, so you take off at your usual sedate speed.
6 PM: Stop at a drivethrough fast food place. You decide to eat in their parking lot, but you are back on the road at 6:20. The charge meter is running low, so you slow to 45 MPH.
7:15 PM: Limp into your in-laws’ driveway with the meter showing 2% charge left.
Only twenty three hours and fifteen minutes for the three hundred and five mile trip! Fortunately you have planned to take Monday off, so you don’t have to leave until Sunday evening. Plenty of time to recharge from their 110v socket with an extension cord.
Oh, man! Does that bed ever feel good.
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:30 pm)#188 I like! … Very inventive. Yup, the Volt would provide the better scenario. And we would would have more sleep. ;+}
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:31 pm)Wouldn’t the Leaf need to push its genset, given where the power plugs in? I have this mental picture of a Leaf with an aerodynamic genset that looks like a catfish chasing a guppy.
-2
Jun 10th, 2010 (9:40 pm)Dispite huge amounts of investmentst in Windmills .. these huge monsters have many nasty side effects… wind mills only make up about 1% or less of our electric needs. Not a serious way to generate major electricity. Sure you can say they are pollution free.. but that is not true… they have many bad side effects. Just ask anyone who lives near some of these monsters. One small coal fired generating plan that supplies our electricity is 588 megawatts .. one of the largest windmills is only 1 or 1.5 megawatts. I worked at the coal fired plant for a few days doing some electrical engineering… I was amazed how clean it was.. no smell at all… no smoke … no noise… and it generated 588megawatts.
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:09 pm)Lol, you can bring an extension around to the front.. duct tape it to the top of the car so it does not interfere with the doors
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:25 pm)There is no existing battery technology that would give you a 4kwh pack with 4kwh usable, only ultracapacitors could do that and it would be incredible bulky and expensive. In any case the Volts serial tech depends on that pack to buffer the genset, if the battery actually got down to zero then the only thing powering the car would be a 70hp engine.. pretty sluggish. It would be as slow as one of those european economy diesel cars.
You could have a 4kwh pack with 3kwh usable and 0 electric range.. then you would have the full performance of the Volt but the genset would be running most of the time.. it would still be a very economical car that would get 50mpg both city and hwy.. and about 400lbs lighter, very peppy. A 15-20 year old Volt using the original battery will probably act like this, but still hauling the 400lb battery.
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:31 pm)OOOOooooooohhhhh YEAH!!!!!
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:46 pm)Brian, they’ve talked about offering 20 40 60 next gen already. But let me ask you this. Forget about the future. Let’s say you could buy a 100 mile leaf or a 40 mile Volt and you have the option of plugging it in when you get to work. If they are both priced the same, which would you choose? You’re probably not the best candidate for a Volt or a Leaf since you drive so much, but I feel in your situation a Volt would still be the best option because you’re getting a better car with a longer lasting (in years) battery for essentially the same price. If you don’t have a way to charge at work you may have to tell your boss you can’t go on a 25 mile errand during the day because you won’t have a way to get home. That’s assuming the Leaf even really gets 100 miles and we all assume some days it will not. Especially if you drive to work going over 60 mph.
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:48 pm)I’m afraid your “given” isn’t, not really. Think about it: 8hr * 240v * 40A = 76.8 kWh. Surely you don’t believe that it takes nearly 77 kWh of electricity to charge a 24 kWh battery, do you?
The reason for 8 hours is that the charger currently being built into the Leaf can only handle 3.3kW. So 8hr * 3.3kW = 26.4 kWh; much more reasonable. The 40A is not the charge rate but the electrical code requirement, and that is because Nissan plans to have a 6.6kW charger on board in the future. That will charge in – guess what – 4 hours. It will pull 6600W / 240v = 27.5A. The code says that’s too much for a single device to pull on a 30A circuit, so it has to be put on a 40A circuit.
Your 125A isn’t too far off, though. If you plan to use 0.8 * 26.4 ~= 21kWh to fill the battery to 80%, and you want to do it in 26 minutes, you need nearly 50kW. At 440v that is about 110A.
+1
Jun 10th, 2010 (10:58 pm)And they could Brian, but it’d probably look more like the Leaf and cost 4 or 5 grand more and like Nissan will have to deal with in 4 or 5 years Gm would also get bad press because the battery won’t be holding up like the Volts will.
For all of you who still don’t know this.
Volt 16kw battery with 8kws usable
Leaf 24kw battery with almost 20kw usable This will kill the battery years faster.
there is also no thermal management system for the leafs battery, it’s completely under engineered for almost the same price. Who knows, maybe the same price.
Even if the Leaf outsells the Volt there are going to be a lot of unhappy Leaf owners who after 3 or 4 years have 60 to 70 miles on a charge vs what they perhaps used to have. Meanwhile Volt owners will still be getting close to 40 miles 8 to 10 years later. Now that’s an American Revolution.
+2
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:04 pm)Clean, perhaps you are right. Instead of wind being the largest segment of newly installed generation sources for the past two years maybe, we should lobby for coal to take over that position. Perhaps all new electric car drivers should be looking forward to using more and more coal because it’s “clean.”
Perhaps Texas should roll back the monsters you speak of, that allowed it to generate up to 19% of it’s electricity needs, for the first time ever, at certain time periods this year, while burning no fuel to do it. Or you could even do a little research before you state your conclusions.
Like noting the vast amount of mercury that is released into the air to burn coal for electricity. Or the massive toxic sludge ponds that hold the waste from coal plants. Or the removal of pristine mountains to burn their content for fuel. No you’re right, let’s just be happy coal plants are clean – no smell at all!!!!!
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:20 pm)GM is taking a big electrified risk with the Volt. Nissan has a fairly user friendly website up that helps them see who the buyers would likely be, and ameliorate that risk. GM has no website. So we will see how that risk is handled in…late fall? Until then we have to be patient because, even though GM can complete the engineering, the business case involves far too much opacity of risk to launch plans for two electric car lines at the same time.
If GM could build a website that helps people choose and buy cars, instead of being an exercise in making happy dealers, they could understand the likely buyers and have a better handle on the electric car risks. Maybe? Dunno really, it’s never been tried.
+3
Jun 10th, 2010 (11:50 pm)Nice restraint! Tolerating these guys and their opinions isn’t too hard, though. A lot of us were pretty self-righteous in our days too, I’ll bet. The difference was that although our generation pretty much invented the internet, we didn’t use it much back then.
There were consequences for speaking out in the wrong bar. We learned, very well, how to choose our words carefully to make a point. Defending our friends was a little more that hitting a keyboard.
Just the same way, GM is using our money to carefully choose production investments. Sharing the production and development expense with a company that has relatively cheap labor makes a heck of a lot of sense. The Cruze production materials were designed, ordered and built in Europe and China before the investment was made for US production.
I would expect the same reduction of risk will be made for GM’s second US built BEV. The market needs to show itself by more than online opinions and refundable deposits before GM spends our money to build another new car.
+1
Jun 11th, 2010 (12:09 am)Either way, I wish all the car companies that are taking this risk much success. I look forward to all the choices.
Jun 11th, 2010 (1:02 am)Not me. If price wasn’t a factor I’d be driving a Tesla. But I agree with your point. +1
Jun 11th, 2010 (1:14 am)Not if each parallel string gets its own converter to ensure sharing.
+2
Jun 11th, 2010 (1:27 am)I’m skeptical based on your descriptions. I’ve worked at a nuclear plant. I’ve done equipment install and start-ups at both coal plants and biofuel burners.
None are what I’d call quiet! Sure, noise at the fence isn’t bad, and if your talking noise spread over a large area I’d agree, but I would never call a steam plant “quiet.” Every plant I’ve been in requires muffs at a minimum and in many places you’re time limited with muffs and plugs together because it’s so loud. The turbine is loud, feed pumps are even louder; coal pulverizers are deafening.
Dirt burners aren’t clean inside either. Ash and coal dust goes everywhere.
Jun 11th, 2010 (2:32 am)This is why GM has perhaps over engineered the car. We’ve seen this with numerous consumer products. Take the Ipod for instance, when I bought my first ipod (Second Gen) it had a 4 gig HD and these awesome touch sensitive buttons that glowed upon touch, same with the first PS3. Later versions of both products lost these little expensive features. You couldn’t buy a Prius a few years ago without a big LCD screen. Now most come without one. There was no way this car was going to be cheap (The Volt) So they made the battery big and added a few thousand in cool features. This will make it an envious car to the average man who can’t afford a new 35k car. But when Gen 2 comes out and they can determine whether or not they should make 100,000 or 200,000 they can decide numerous options. A cheaper engine, and smaller batteries making the car right in line with the price of an average car giving everyone the option of driving at least 20 gas free miles a day.
Jun 11th, 2010 (6:26 am)You should get your facts right. The EV1 was for almost 10 years the most advanced EV in the world. GM spent $1B on it. It was not just thrown together. The government mandate was good to promote this. Chevron sued California and CARB and got the mandate outlawed. Chevron also bought the NiMH patents and sued Panasonic, forcing Toyota to stop production of their Rave EV. GM did happily crush the EV1s and concentrated on high profit SUVs.
Jun 11th, 2010 (7:41 am)That’s why stating GOALS is so important.
Consumers only vaguely know what the intentions of Volt currently are. GM has been sending so many different messages, they are getting all mixed up. Those here have yet to decide upon what’s most important too. So, expect those decisions about Gen 2 to be just as chaotic.
Until there are clear business intentions stated about Volt, the engineering effort will suffer.
Remember, that’s a primary reason for the success of Prius. We knew even before rollout began precisely what Toyota wanted to accomplish.
Jun 11th, 2010 (11:03 am)#186
Amen. +1