After three and a half years of daily Volt posting on this site is it possible to lose sight of the larger forces in play? This site was started to convince GM to build the Volt from a desire both to get our country off of oil as well as to help promote the purchase of cars from an American manufacturer.
Volt hype has had a very very long ramp up, and the majority of the US population are probably aware Chevy is working on an electric car. Nissan publicly entered the space much later, just last year, and only officially announced its pure electric LEAF in August of 2009. Yet they have been marketing aggressively, having announced pricing, launch markets and having begun taking pre-orders. Furthermore Nissan’s CEO is vocally very bullish on electric cars, projecting a 10% market share for them by 2020, and with plans in place to build 500,000 LEAFs per year within a few years.
We often get into comparisons between pure EVs and electric cars with range extenders on this site. From a practical utilitarian standpoint, the EREV would likely be more popular, something GMs internal research also suggests. One study concluded 83% of respondents would prefer a 40 mile EREV to a 100 mile EV. Recently, a large consulting group determined range anxiety will be a significant issue and that the majority of people beleive an electric ar needed 300 miles of range to be practical.
Nissan marketing is pushing the idea of no gas anytime, and no tailpipe emissions. They are equating the car with good health too, like choosing Lance Armstrong as its sponsor.
It is odd to consider a car’s popularity since no-one has ever actually bought or test driven one, but at this unusual turing point in automotive history, it is possible. Using publicly available Internet measures of popularity it could be concluded that there is more interest and enthusiasm for the LEAF. Google handles 60% of all Internet searches. Using their Trend tool, searches for the LEAF have now surpassed those for the Volt and are almost double the volume (graphic above).
Furthermore, the official Leaf Facebook page has 54,000 members while the Volt Facebook page has just 24,000.
Finally, Nissan’s official interest list has 130,000 people on it, and they have gotten 13,000 pre-orders. The size of the offical Chevrolet.com Volt interest list has just been disclosed, and stands at 42,000. The GM-Volt.com unofficial interest list has 52,000 on it, many of whom may appear on both lists.
So is the LEAF more popular with the American public than the Volt? And what does this mean for the Volt?
One could argue that none of this really matters now, because once the vehicles are in the public space and people begin to live with them only then can true popularity be determined as it equates to sales.
And in the end it really doesn’t matter, because both cars reduce the use of petroleum and that after all is what its all about. Some people will probably even buy both cars for their home.
+5
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:33 am)From the article:
One could argue that none of this really matters now, because once the vehicles are in the public space and people begin to live with them only then can true popularity be determined as it equates to sales.
Agreed. The true test is in the sales column. I foresee this: The pure EVs will have a small following because of range anxiety issues. The following will get smaller as reports come in about people being stranded. GM will use these reports to promote the EREV and sales will escalate from there. EREV wins hands down, until range anxiety issues can be eliminated.
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:35 am)I’ve convinced myself that the google search metric could be a good thing for the Volt because it shows people may know what the Volt is and what it’s supposed to be, whereas people are googling the Leaf because they are unsure about the Leaf’s details. Unfortunately, I think, like a large person in a milkshake store, I’m grasping at straws.
+7
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:39 am)“One could argue that none of this really matters now, because once the vehicles are in the public space and people begin to live with them only then can true popularity be determined as it equates to sales.”
That’s what I would argue (and I am one
). Until they get to dealers’ showrooms and people start buying them, it’s all speculation. As is a lot we discuss here. Pretty soon we are going to know more and have to speculate less. 
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:42 am)Well, GM waited for Tesla to trigger moving forward with the Volt. Once GM moves forward you have to expect that others will spring into action and try to beat them to the market.
The Volt is real (althought the very slow ramp up in volume is a concern). The Nissan is being hyped as if it is as mature as the Volt. Who knows, maybe there was a lot of development work going on behind the scenes. Maybe not. It should all start to play out soon. Of course the waiting will just get easier and easier …
A Voltnation gathering might make the waiting easier… Lyle?
+8
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:43 am)What we’re looking at now is interest from early adopters.
Pure BEVs will be popular with early adopters, but not with the mainstream public.
Let’s face it, most of us on this site don’t represent the mainstream public. The only way I’ve been able to gauge interest at all is by talking with friends and family.
+8
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:45 am)From the article:
And in the end it really doesn’t matter, because both cars reduce the use of petroleum and that after all is what its all about.
Correct again. For me, it is all about hurting the middle east and helping our environment.
I would love for the middle east go back to where they were before oil was discovered.
Those governments don’t care about anything except staying in power. Oil helps them do that.
Let them all return to camel jockying and fighting over sand. Let’s keep our people safe.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:48 am)Consider this,
If your goal is to buy a compact car that delivers the best electric drive experience:
Volt –3900 lbs (rumored)
Leaf –2800 lbs (rumored)
+4
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:51 am)Interest in electric cars???
People read and hear about them. Some know of the VOLT and the Leaf. Many have seen info and pictures and maybe even seen one at an auto show.
Until the basic person, like me, really touches and drives one will I know for sure what an electric car can do.
Right now we are trusting on what others show and tell us about both cars.
I am a VOLT fan and do plan to buy one … if the price is reasonable and the actual “touch” of the car proves out … which I am confident it will.
So as far as general interest the public has about these two cars… it reminds one of the phrases ..
“a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush”, “I am from Missouri”, “the proof is in the pudding”, etc.
When these cars hit the marketplace we all shall see the real interest and I predict GM will be pleasantly surprised.
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:55 am)I think the time will work for the Volt.
First people had more time to wrap their minds into buying a volt, myself I’ve been putting money on the side in case the volt hits the 50k mark. I need a real car not an expensive toy that will stay in the garage while hoping for the battery to refill until the next show off run….
Second leaf has the defect every one knows about here i.e. NO renge externder and third most likely an expansive battery to change within few years since there is no way for nissan to “temperate” it properly.
I expect high initial sales for the LEAF as enthousiasts will buy them like crazy but when serious people will be looking they’ll see what GM and almost everyone here already know: The Volt is a far superior concept and has way more value per dollar spent than the LEAF.
NPNS
+6
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:56 am)I think almost everybody is “interested” in an all electric car, including Volt enthusiasts. That doesn’t mean they will run out and buy one. It wouldn’t surprise me if even the Leaf refundable deposit list ends up not being a good indicator of true demand for Leafs. As we all know, there has been demand for electric cars since the oil embargo of the 70s. It’s only now that GM has come up with a way to give us a practical one, that works for most people.
+49
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:00 am)The real difference here is that Nissan has taken the aggressive stance to build large quantities quickly, release pricing, and take pre-orders. GM is doing none of those things. So why do searches on a vehicle that you will not be able to see, test drive, or buy for two or three more years?
IMHO, GM is making a very large mistake by holding back on releasing the pricing, not committing to large scale production, and going with a geographical limited release area.
GM keeps saying they do not know how many people are really ready for this type of vehicle. They could find out very quickly, by telling us how much it will cost, what option packages will be available, taking pre-orders, and giving out some type of a delivery date. And maybe stop having the top management appear to be so weak-kneed about this project!!!
GM has the winning product with the Volt. The just need to have the stones to market and produce it!!!!
Let me say this one more time, just in case the GM people that look at this site may have missed it. I am ready to buy a Volt. I have a garage with a 120V outlet ready to go, or I can upgrade to a 240V connection, if that is what is required. I am prepared to place an order and put down a sizable deposit, not just a $99.00 teaser. All you have to do is tell me how much it will cost, let me pick out the options I want, and give me a delivery date to my local Chevy dealer!!!!!
It really is that simple……
Have Outlet – Ready For E-REV
NPNS
+7
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:02 am)Shouldn’t the poll have a “I have registered for both the Volt and the Leaf” option?
I still don’t see the Leaf and the Volt as competitors. The Volt is for anybody that can afford it and the Leaf is for two car families that can afford it. And there will be some two car families with both! Although at that point, you have spent a fair amount of money on two small-ish cars.
Plus, Leaf’s higher google rate has to relate to Nissan’s currently publicity blitz. I see Leaf Ad’s on alot of the websites I visit. And I’ve heard they have ramped up the TV commericals, too.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:03 am)While the Volt might be the better choice from a rational point of view (drive electric short distances, use fuel on longer, no need for two separate cars), it still has one big drawback image-wise: a tailpipe.
If you are a hard-core environmentalist, or want a green image for you or your company, it is hard to explain that tailpipe. THAT is why I think the LEAF will be popular at first. People with large enough wallets who wants to be “green” will choose it, for image purposes.
Further down the road, when average people starts considering buying an electric car, they will prefer EREVs like the Volt as they are cheaper and still give long driving range.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:06 am)This a good unbiased article. The tone is right and the information is relevent. I have to say, I was a little disappointed in the Tesla/Fisker piece a few days ago. Not that those companies don’t have their challenges but there was a lot of negative heresay and tone in it. This is much better.
As long as the Volt’s price is $37,500 or under it will do just fine and everyone should be cheering for the EVs like the Leaf to do well too. I do hope the EPA standardizes on a more realistic range testing method, though. Whether it be Leaf, Roadster, or Volt the sticker should reflect as accurately as possible the real world range. They did a good adjusting sticker MPGs a couple of years ago and now is the time to get EV ranges right too. If this means 80 miles for Leaf, 35 miles for Volt, and 200 miles for the Roadster then so be it. EVs will be much better in the long run for it.
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:07 am)Seeing how Nissan is working HARD to build hype and understanding about the Leaf. It is no wonder the popularity is soaring. All us geeks know each in and out of the Volt, but a vast majority of the sheepish public have never heard about it.
Seeing as there is no advertising hardly, and no overflow of forthcoming information like the Nissan, it is no doubt the trending differences. People talk and search about what they hear about, they just aren’t hearing much about the Volt versus the Leaf.
GM, get off your butt and focus commercials and media events to train the public.
+7
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:09 am)GM marketing is too smart to whip up panic about range anxiety when they likely will be offering a pure BEV at some point in the next few years. They’ll promote the range extender with only an oblique swipe at range anxiety: ” Volt: your quiet, reliable electric car with up to 40 miles of emissions-free daily driving. And what happens after 40 miles? Your drive continues without pause for hundreds of miles to the beach, the mountains or to grandma’s house.”
+28
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:11 am)Lyle,
Maybe it’s a good time to say how much we appreciate what you’ve done here.
THANK YOU!
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:15 am)I had a dream the other night, that every car GM sells had an 8 gallon gas tank. Trucks had two 8 gallon tanks.
+4
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:17 am)Popular Mechanics has been doing reviews of Nissan BEV’s going back to the Hypermini in 2000 and they were told the weight of the Leaf would be closer to 3500 pounds. It would be incredibly difficult to get a BEV with 100 mile range and decent build quality anywhere close to 2800 pounds with battery tech at todays level. Noone knows what the battery pack equivalent of Moore’s Law is, but my money is on 5-6% reductions every year in weight and cost over the next 10 years, but regardless of whether the reductions are 3% or 10% per year, it will be an interesting decade!
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/reviews/drives/4326806
+5
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:19 am)All of this ignores the ‘backward compatibility’ that people expect in a next-generation car. Volt is backward compatible because she has a gasoline backup with the associated built-out gasoline infrastructure.
Volt is not as scary/risky of a purchase as a pure electric. There are not as many unknowns. I think this is why GM is making Volt a more generic grocery-getter than a sport sedan.
I also think that there are a bunch of kids interested in LEAF. Kids don’t buy $30-40k cars but they can sure throw off search statistics.
+6
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:24 am)Wait a minute. The title of this article is “Official Chevy Volt List” !? Am I missing something here? We don’t have an Official waiting list. Could someone explain this? Yes, I am on the UN-official waiting list here at gm-volt.com. Hand raisiers, maybe. But this list is just for more info or if you might be interested. Correct me if I am wrong, but there is not list to actually buy one. If I remember correctly, I am 648 or 647, but I do not feel as if this number means anything to anyone-especially GM.
Hawk
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:31 am)Last weekend we went to visit our daughter 200 miles away, plus we drove around while there. With a Volt we could have made a 120 mile retribution to OPEC. A Leaf would have stayed home.
+7
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:31 am)You can’t consider one spec by itself. For example:
Volt – 111 kW electric motor
Leaf – 80kW electric motor
Note that larger induction electric motors often have better average efficiency than smaller ones. This is the exact opposite of what people might expect coming from a world of gas engines.
In addition, the total weight of an electric vehicle doesn’t affect efficiency as much as you would think. Regenerative braking recaptures most of the the extra energy required for accelerating a heavier car. As I understand it, the main issue with extra weight is increased tire resistance.
+5
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:34 am)I have seen the Leaf on several TV Ads, billboards, all over internet ads, as well as on National news stations recently. I think that the amount of Leaf advertising far surpasses the Volt advertising at this time and that is the primary explaination of the difference that we see. Once the Volt is thrust into the public spotlight as the Leaf has been recently I think the numbers will more accuratly depict public opinion and interest in the respective vehicles.
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:39 am)GM has said that the sign-up at Chevrolet.com is the Official waiting list. It is stated as a sign-up for updates, but that resembles the LEAF list that generated the announcement to put your money down. See the connection? You are probably correct that your number on the GM-Volt.com “Want List” doesn’t mean anything to GM, but it’s better than my # 23,114.
(BTW Lyle, I think the number is 43,000.)
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:40 am)Yes, well said, +1.
In other words, after a while image starts to follow reason.
For example, most people who are interested in the Leaf say they will use their other car or a rental for longer trips. Let’s run the numbers on that. Let’s say the other car is a Toyota Corolla.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ………………………………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………………………………… 37
Nissan Leaf/Toyota Corolla … 39
Prius ……………………………………… 228
30 MPG car …………………………… 380
20 MPG car …………………………… 570
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:43 am)Didn’t GM already do this this back in 1999?
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:45 am)Is the list at Chevy an actual Waiting list? I understood it to be just like the one here. That it is basically “Yes, I am interested.” But in all reality it doesn’t mean anything. Nissan’s list does actually have some value though unlike GM’s if I understand it correctly.
Hawk
+9
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:45 am)To people familiar with politics, this apparent popularity of the LEAF makes sense.
1. Yes, the Volt process started earlier and was more transparent than the LEAF. BUT… as in politics, a head start doesn’t always help if it happens too much in advance of election day; or in this case, too much in advance of the product release date. Americans have information ADD, and don’t start paying attention to things until they have to.
2. Yes, the Volt is superior technology. Not only is it a pure electric car that satisfies the needs of 75% of all Americans in electric mode, but its range extender gives it flexibility far beyond that. BUT… the range extender is complicated, and as in politics, the key to advertising is simplicity. The reasons why the Volt is better can’t be conveyed in a 10 second sound bite, so look for it to trail the LEAF initially until people start to catch on that the Volt does give them gas-free driving most of the time.
3. People who live in colder climates would be crazy to pick a pure BEV over one with a built-in engine/pre-heater. The winter reliability issue for a LEAF in the upper midWest and Northeast is HUGE.
If I were GM I wouldn’t sweat it. There are many wide-eyed LEAF optimists who think they can live their life within a 30-40 radius leash around their house (or 30-60 minutes to burn on a public recharge if they want to drive farther. But many of these people will think twice once they have to deal with the hassles. This is especially true if the Volt carries a $35K price tag and can be had for a post-rebate cost of high $20Ks. If the cost of the LEAF and Volt are comparable, I think the Volt will quickly outsell the LEAF.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:47 am)No way is a pure BEV like the LEAF more popular than the Volt.
More people are familiar with hybrids, be they parallel or serial, than with pure BEV’s.
+9
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:47 am)Just noticing a lot of stuff on the weight of the Volt/LEAF etc. in this thread, figured I’d wade in a bit.
Mark Perry (Nissan talking head) recently estimated (last week) the weight at 3,500 pounds for the LEAF, which makes sense because the Versa which is the platform it is based off of weighs 2,777. You then have to add on 660 pounds of batteries and also reduce that number by the weight of the ICE…then put back on the added weight due to the LWB adaption of the platform (106.3 v 102.4) I’d guess it ends up just under 3.5 around 3,450ish.
The general consensus/estimate on the Volt is in the same range now, most recent numbers coming back from the test drives put it around/just under 3,400….according to ‘sources’ (which also sounds reasonable given the Cruze is around 2,850 and then you have to add on 400+ pounds of battery pack, and various electric components)
Random other things:
EV-1: 3,084
Concept Volt: 3,140
Tesla Roadster: 2,690
Mitsu i-MiEV: 2,381
Check out this post: http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/06/01/nissan-leaf-curb-weight/
+4
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:51 am)From where I sit and maybe I don’t get out enough but it seems that GM doesn’t get a fair shake in the media’s eye. The Volt useually doesn’t even get mentioned when talking about hybrid’s or cars of the future. Is it just me or does any body else see it that way. True in the end it may make no difference and Nissan will have spent alot of money for nothing. On the other hand it could make all the difference in the world and once again GM will be playing catch up to a Japanese car maker. As we all know perseption is EVERTHING in the world of cars. Loose positive perspective in the eyes of the consumer and it could take a life time to regain and maybe not at all. Imagine the comercials we will see on the Volt and the Leaf. Could get pretty ugly if GM goes for the kill shot and expposes the Leaf weak spot RANGE. The Volt looks like a conventional car and if need be used like one. The Leaf on the other you will have to think a little to use it. For some people thats a stretch. Nissan is betting they can jump right to the world of BEV and skip over that intermiadate step of EREV. Time will tell.
+21
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:53 am)It should be noted Bob Lutz gave an interview 4/30, his last day, in which he clearly states Volt will be a low production model —-> (quote below) source:
http://www.mlive.com/auto/index.ssf/2010/04/so_long_bob_lutz_retiring_gm_e.html
On the Volt: Lutz acknowledged that the Chevy Volt isn’t likely to be a numerical game changer for the company, noting that it’s initial annual production of 50,000 or 60,000 units is a drop in the water for a company of GM’s size. Instead, he argued the Volt will be a perception game changer. “The fact that General Motors, which I believe is still the most capable automobile company in the world when it comes to technology, has put this vehicle on the road is going to have a huge halo impact on the rest of our lineup. That’s why it’s such an important vehicle for GM. I think the fact we were developing the vehicle was one of the reasons the government felt we were worth saving.”
——————————————————————————————————-
Finally we all have to come to terms with the fact Volt is icing on GM’s comeback cake.
It doesn’t take lots of imagination to translate Mr. Lutz’s most plain-speak yet on the future of Volt. It’s a low-productio halo project designed to change the public’s perception of GM’s green cred and technological capability – in other word’s, sadly it’s a step up from a concept car.
I know I’ve read for months the hopeful posts of VoltNationers saying production can be ramped up, etc., etc.. Sadly what Mr. Lutz is saying is Volt will usher in a 2nd generation of 2-mode hybrid Tahoes and Malibus, and maybe a hybrid Cruze and BEV Spark down the line.
So folks, this is no longer a mystery. For you who’ve already jumped off the Volt boat and gotten in line for a Leaf, I’d say you’re reading the looking glass quite clearly. To me, it says keep my Prius and look at Leaf’s 3 year lease program with interest – mainly if battery technology makes it more viable for 200-300 miles if needed. I know other manufacturers are going to eventually catch onto the EREV advantage, and yes, they’ll most likely blow GM out of the water with a higher quality mass-produced product. My guess, Toyota will start with it’s plug-in Prius and have it’s successor be a full-blown EREV.
So here I am revealing the ugly truth to GM-Voltnation. Will this post elicit -1 votes in droves, or will people here finally realize Volt is, to some level ( could be 12,000 units, could be 50,000 ) ———— mass production vaporware.
Some will say a cheaper – less capable Volt II will arise sometime in 2012-2013…It’s still a downer to think Volt was a PR science project all the time.
To GM: “Hey we build it!” isn’t good enough.
RECHARGE! James
-1
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:53 am)In a conversation I had with a GM rep, I was told it means something. See my edits to my comment #25, comparing LEAF sign-up to Chevy.com/volt sign-up. I believe the people on the “official list” will get important information leading to ordering. JMO, but based on my conversation with the rep.
In that same conversation, we discussed the roll out to the rest of the country 6 months after the roll out to the three initial markets. The official list could come into play in that second roll out. JMO.
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:54 am)I don’t think you can honestly draw a ‘comparison’ between the two. The LEAF is an all-electric and the VOLT is not. Better to ask if the LEAF will be more popular than the Fisker or Tesla Sedan BEV vehicles. I would wager it will be a good deal more popular than either of those based on cost alone. I don’t see it being much more than a novelty tho. With a 100 mile (max – I seriously doubt everyday drivers will achieve 100 mile range) range limitation and a 21 hour recharge time (on normal house current) it is only suited as a 2nd ‘commuter’ car (for those of us who commute less than 100 miles/day).
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:57 am)Exactly! +1
Many people don’t realize that the Leaf may actually use more gas than the Volt, because most Leaf owners will use another gas powered car for longer trips, and that other car is likely to be less efficient that the Volt.
See post #26 for details.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:12 am)I reread what you wrote and what I wrote. Let me correct myself. The Chevy list is as you stated an official interest list, but I was told “it means something.” Unlike the list here, the purpose of the GM list is to generate Volt updates to those who signed up. (Most of us regulars come here daily to see “what’s new,” and Lyle occasionally sends out an email to those on the list.) So although the GM list is not an official waiting list, it is an official GM list, and it will mean something.
Wait and see,
Michael
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:13 am)Hey you guys can argue Leaf vs. Volt , EREV vs. BEV until the cow’s come home —- But please read Lutz’s comments, and realize he is gone from the company, and really will not influence anything at GM moving forward. When EV-1′s founders left GM, many of it’s engineers too….it plain fizzled on the vine, just like Volt.
I mean, read Lutz’s interview – the link is posted on my earlier post. Then tell me you can’t see plainly that GM is not going in the EREV direction. They’ve been saying it’s too expensive for months now, just many of us were too starry-eyed to hear them.
In other word’s the BEV-EREV debate is pointless.
At this point the future of electric driving rests on the Leaf and Mr. Ghosn, I’m afraid. That may or may not be so bad – especially when Leaves are blooming from Tennessee.
Sorry my former post had typos – For some reason I tried on two browsers, the site was not responding – allowing me to edit my m-i-s-t-e-a-k-s……
So I’ll repeat:
GM, Just saying “Hey we built it!” — is not enough.
RECHARGE! James
P.S. – “50 – 60,000″ units over the average generational lifespan of a
model ( 4-5 years ) are “ultra halo” numbers.
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:19 am)I’ve mentioned this before. I think GM is on for a big surprise here.
First, as a halo car, it doesn’t work. The Prius worked as a halo for Toyota because everything still ran on gasoline, so the motto was “efficiency”, and because all of Toyota’s cars were generally more efficient at the time, the halo worked. But now things have changed. If people want an electric powered car, they’re not going to buy a GM gas powered car because GM offers the Volt. I know I won’t. The halo concept doesn’t make sense any more.
Second, Lutz also talks about weak Volt sales predictions. GM’s surveys don’t show a lot of real consumer interest right now. But asking people if they’re interested in a product that doesn’t exist yet – that doesn’t really make sense. For example, 10 years ago most sales predictions for MP3 players were very low, but then in late 2001 the Apple iPod hit the market and sales soared. For a new type of product, you won’t know true demand until its out there.
The Volt will be the same way. Once people talk to a friend or neighbor that owns a Volt, they will want one too. Demand will soar. I hope GM is prepared…
+5
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:23 am)They did, but it cost them $100,000 each to build them. Or if you want to account for the cost it took to build 1,000 EV1′s, $500,000,000, and divide the amount built you could argue, weakly, that each EV1 cost $500,000.
+7
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:34 am)OH DEAR LORD…!!
When I read “Official Chevy Volt List Hits 42,000″ in the post title, I thought maybe GM had announced Volt’s MSRP at long last. My brain processed it as “LIST PRICE,” not as “a waiting list.”
And my first thought was… “oh damn, $42k, I’m out.”
*whew*… for now…!
+5
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:34 am)Actually i can’t see GM using these reports of people being standard, as they themselves are looking into pure electric cars.
I do agree however the EREV will be more popular with sales (if GM produced enough). the waiting list is only so large for the Leaf because it is now perceived as being “on-sale” and you are really bookmarking a position. GM is holding off on this for their own reasons, though we know most of us here would buy one tomorrow if we could.
-1
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:39 am)So you’re telling me the Leaf will weigh in heavier than the Volt . . . . am I getting that right?
Care to put some “virtual dollars” on this one?
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:49 am)It could be said the Chevy Volt is the ultimate “unobtainium”.
RECHARGE! James
- still wondering if the 50-60,000 production number Lutz spoke of was including the Ampera and the Chinese Buick Volt-Suey?
+6
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:55 am)To be clear, GM is seeing high demand among early adopters, so they know the first 50,000 will sell. But GM’s current sales forecast for the Volt after the initial rush are not so great, which is why Lutz is calling it a halo in your quote.
If I remember correctly, GM’s production plans are something like:
2011 Volt (Nov 2010 – Summer 2011) – around 5000 units.
2012 Volt – around 50,000 units.
2013 Volt – depends on customer demand, and current projections for demand are low.
I believe GM is in for a BIG surprise here. You can’t judge demand on a radically new type of product until its in the marketplace. After the initial rush, I believe demand will increase.
Bottom line: If customer demand picks up, then it’s won’t be just a halo anymore.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:06 am)While only anecdotal, and not extensive–I have to say that the fewer than a dozen reasonably intelligent people I have mentioned the Volt to were totally in the dark about it.
No clue, not even aware as has been suggested here that GM is working on an electric car.
That shouldn’t be surprising as GM really hasn’t done much mainstream marketing/advertising that I have noticed.
And yes, people related most easily to simplicity, so let’s see how GM handles the message once it is ready to put its product on the road.
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:09 am)I disagree. What appears to be a purist view on the surface (no gasoline ever!) ignores the reality that the tailpipe on the car has merely been replaced by the stack at the power plant. In other words, even an electric car has SOME emissions. So at the end of the day it comes down to a sensible discussion of efficiency, practicality, and overall emissions. Furthermore, look for the BEV purist argument to be greatly weakened by the inevitable commercialization of cellulosic ethanol as an EREV fuel.
+4
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:12 am)It’s time to LAUNCH the high-energy, high impact TV and radio spots for the VOLT!
And it should feature the song “Vehicle” by the ‘Ides of March’.
http://www.ilike.com/artist/Ides+Of+March/track/Vehicle/buy
“I’m your vehicle babe. I’ll take you anywhere you want to go…”
And leave out the football heroes that probably cost way more than they are worth. Let’s see the hot soccer mom driving the kids with NO FEAR of running out of CHARGE on a hot summer day! C’MON GM !!! Did you fire everyone in the Marketing Department, or are they just sleeping?!
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:15 am)Unfortunately that won’t happen. The end of oil will make the middle east look like Somalia writ on a much larger scale.
The middle east has failed to diversify its economy in any fashion. The oil wealth is going to a select few, and when those holding the wealth see the impending economic collapse, they will flee rather than face the wrath of the rest of the population. The population has grown far beyond what the land is capable of supporting in their earlier lifestyle. They will become wholly dependent on aid and / or they will have massive population declines via war and famine.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:19 am)It seems to me that anyone who is a self-described hardcore environmentalist should be using mass transit more than a car, thereby driving less than 40 miles on an average day. This in turn renders as irrelevant the “No Gas!” LEAF argument. At less than 40 miles a day there is zero difference in gas use between the Volt and LEAF. I mean, seriously, can someone who drives a car 50 miles a day really self-identify as a hardcore environmentalist?
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:21 am)Thanks Statik,
We are on the verge of a big market revolution and it is difficult to foresee something precisely. As you know the total cost of ownership of an average driver is in favor of the Leaf given the only rough estimates of the Volt that we have now and people vote with their wallets, …
So the best thing to do is to wait for the correct price of the Volt to refine our computations in different scenarii.
BR
JC NPNS
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:21 am)The true excitement for me is that finally the attitude that no one will buy electric has been debunked in a two week period. I’ve said all along, I have the energy and resource to provide a waiting list for electric. I am refreshed that Nissan took my money, is enthusiastic, and has promised delivery in my market. I’m not as convinced with GM. At one time I told GM I would put up $10,000 to make the 1st build list, but no interest. That tells you something in my world.
Electric transportation is a revolution, it will do a whole lot of great things for the world, I’m sure it some one will dream up some bad at the same time. However, if we don’t start we will be dependent and non-green forever.
There is nothing as ‘electric’ as the electric car driving experience. It is unfortunate that everyone hasn’t had the opportunity to drive a EV-1, RAVE4-EV, or an Electric Ranger. Once bite by this bug it doesn’t go away. Be careful, once you have it you are infected forever.
Yes, the all electric Leaf is better than the Volt. With an extended battery pack the Leaf will go 200 + miles on a segment. Carrying around a heavy ICE is not the way to go. Once we start thinking about segments, life is pretty sweet.
Remember the battery technologies of this decade are all owned by the oil companies! We are finally breaking away to where we should have been 10 years ago.
Keep in mind, with all of our oil spill issues, federal/state budgets crashing in on us, it’s only a matter of a short time where gas is $10/gal just like in Europe. We have to stop being down right greedy in America and push the imagination as we are known. Join the revolution, it’s the biggest paradigm shift in 100 years.
It will be one exciting time.
Regards,
Doug
+5
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:26 am)The horrible oil spill that continues, and may continue through August, will be the argument in favor of electric cars. It’s a perfect storm of most of our failed systems that have needed change, but we as a society have been slow to change. This is the only kind of tragedy that seems to make people think differently. It’s ironic how much press is brought up about range anxiety and all the arguments that hamper a speedy vision of needed change. We’ve never heard much about the range anxiety with the EV-1, yet we seem to argue and bicker about these trivial things that people can easily get used to, and adapt to. I’m sure there are many many more people willing to deal with any new questions the electric car will create, let’s just get on with it! GM needs to be more aggressive now.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:28 am)Hi Jim,
I know some hardcore environmentalists.
Some have a low emission car because they live in regions without any or so public transportation and have to travel 40+ miles a day for work.
Some had no car until one of their children was badly hurt by a truck riding a bicycle. OK their car is low emission but they have to travel with it
I know people who don’t like hardcore environmentalists.
Some refuse to use a car but live in town and their children may to school by foot.
So is the conclusion cannot be so clearcut,
BR
JC NPNS
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:30 am)Putting down a deposit and picking the color of the car suggests a sale is more imminent than a vague sign up list. My guess is that there is more interest in the Leaf because it seems more real to most than the Volt, After GM releases the pricing and, if it has one, starts an order process then we’ll have a more apples to apples comparison.
It’s also too early to know much of anything or gauge the interest of more than enthusiasts. The realty is that 90% of the population pays no attention to new cars at all. They wait until they see one around the neighborhood or at the office. At this point I see far more Maseratis than I do Volts. Until these cars start showing up it’s hard to know what the average buyer will think.
In this regard, the Leaf is decidedly more popular with many EV enthusiasts. Some enthusiasts buy into the “purity” of the Leaf and think that since the Volt has an ICE it’s not really an EV. Some also have a very low opinion of GM and are reluctant to recognize the great engineering that has gone into the Volt.
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:38 am)And, the fun part will be watching when their people strip the walls of their palaces bare, just as the suffering people of Iraq did when Saddam had his butt kicked out. The oil sheiks should be forced to drink their stinking oil, but sadly it will only be left to the starving masses who worship them.
Of course, that scenario is only wishfull thinking. Oil will always have ‘some’ value. But it should NEVER be worth more than the life of even one U.S. Soldier.
+4
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:50 am)There are many people on many other automotive blogging sites that are defending their decision to buy a Lead to the death. They say that 100 miles is enough for them. Reality will set in harshly once Leaf owners realize that their cars will only go 100 miles in ideal conditions. Ideal conditions being: flat land, driving using the unrealistic US-04 driving cycle, no heater or air conditioner running during your trip, no hot or cold weather affecting battery effectiveness, no electric outlet at the mall where the car bakes or cooks for a few hours, requiring you to suck a bunch of battery power to get the passenger cabin to a comfortable temperature.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:06 am)Image is not about sensible discussions.
If you want your company to get a “green image” you will purchase “green” cars. The “greener” the better. Is the LEAF’s IMAGE greener than Volt’s?
If car purchase was all about mileage cost versus purchase price the whole world would all buy just one brand of car.
+4
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:07 am)It’s not yet a fair comparison. Nissan has created an apparent path to ownership that seems to be one step below being as exciting and concrete as having cars in the showroom.
The Volt still seems to be a shimmering chimera, a desired object. But it’s unobtainable. A far away, blurry image floating over the desert sands. It’s known the Volt is someday very likely to be available. But not yet.
And car introductions get delayed. The Cruze was, that’s hitting close to home regarding the Volt. Cars get canceled. The Orlando was. Companies go bankrupt divisions and projects disappear and availability will be extremely limited. GM is dependent on a future IPO. People would love to have a clear, available alternative to oil dependence…but instead are facing uncertainty.
The Leaf offers clarity; availability with dates and pricing and a official sign up. Even though very few people have asked, how is it possible to create a huge ground breaking product that will be available in mere months, and in industry of constant testing, and there are only three known prototypes. With a little thinking at the periphery of the box, GM should own this.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:08 am)No bets my friend, (=
I’m just throwing out the last/most recent quotes on weight estimates from Nissan and from the ‘talking heads’ at GM. Feel free to do with them what you will.
/Switzerland
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:12 am)Well to me the bottom line still is the leaf can’t perform as an only car. Last year I drove to a convention about 840 miles away. Took 2 days on the way down and made such good time on the return trip I did it in one. Now add the time to rapid charge a Leaf every 100 miles or so and what does that make the trip look like? Heck, even a round trip to the last major airport I made to pick up relatives was outside the Leaf range.
Now if I can only manage one car, which makes more sense? One that for 75% of my driving does the job on electric? Or one that can only perform 75% of my driving without logistical challenges? Some of that 25% would be unplanned and possibly of an emergency nature.
I think many considering the Leaf might start getting cold feet when it’s time to purchase and start looking harder at other options.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:13 am)3
True that. +1
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:15 am)Hey James, I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think 50-60k would really qualify as “ultra halo” (tiny) numbers if we look at the other US vehicle manufacturer that produced a “green” car specifically as a halo/PR project recently and did it very successfully – which would be Ford with their Escape Hybrid.
After Bill Ford Jr. was pushed out of the CEO position, the new executives made a decision to shelve the Fusion Hybrid for years (even though it was basically ready to go) and only make 25,000 Escape Hybrid’s a year for years (nowhere near demand) and market it all over the green space with Kermit the Frog as the spokesman. You couldn’t buy one easily till after the market collapsed in 2008, but it made Ford look great (from an advertising perspective) at 25k of them a year. It seems like Mullaly might be letting these numbers creep up a bit now.
I agree with your analysis though, it appears the current execs at the top of GM see the Volt as a Halo car, which is very sad as they obviously have no idea what the previous GM execs have given them – it seems history repeats itself at GM again, mirroring how Wagoner didn’t realize what he had/could have done with the EV1 (and future variants) that was given to him by the previous GM execs a decade or so ago.
+4
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:17 am)Every time I put gas in my vehicles I get a bad taste in my mouth. When I see the oil slick on the news in what used to be the Gulf, I get sick… My next auto purchase will be all electric. With me, range anxiety is not an issue. Unless GM comes out with an ICE free Volt, I’ll be aquiring a Leaf… I just wish my planes could be converted to electric… BTW, if you stare at the pics of the Leaf long enough (the red one), it starts to look better… Especially after filling up my car…
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:26 am)Well said, +1.
Let’s compare apples to apples.
Today, 70% of our electricity comes from fossil fuels (coal and natural gas).
Yes, there are ways make electricity without emmissions, but there are also ways to make ethanol with zero net emmissions, using no fossil fuels, and without any affect on food supply. These methods exist today and are already being scaled up.
And the beauty of both electricity and ethanol is that they can be made in many different ways, and nearly all of them use domestic fuel sources.
Many people look at the EREV as an interim solution that will go away with new battery technology and fast charging. I see EREVs as a long term solution, for many reasons:
1) The energy density of liquid fuels is much, much higher than any battery technology on the horizon.
2) In oder to gain mass adoption, I believe we would need to be able to fast charge a 300 mile BEV in 10 minutes. That requires a half-million watt connection, which I believe is inherently dangerous. Refilling liquid fuels is much safer than fast charging.
3) In rural and remote areas, things change much more slowly. A FlexFuel EREV can use our existing infrastructure of liquid fuel filling stations.
4) Gasoline (mostly used for passenger vehicles) is only 44% of our total oil consumption. You can’t power a plane or a boat on batteries, and there’s no battery technology in sight that can power an 18-wheel truck across the country. So we’ll need bio-fuels to deal with these issues anyway.
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:30 am)Many people say that they can get away with having a Leaf as their household’s second car–just for commuting to work and the like. Longer trips would be in the primary car, right?
Well, my household’s other vehicle would be a truck. Being a homeowner, having a truck to do yard maintenance and the like is a godsend. I use it for my 5-minute drive each way to work and back. The gas bill for such use is pretty reasonable. However, if I have to take a 120-mile round trip for a day trip to the big city, I don’t want to take my truck for these reasons: It’s a pain to park a truck in the big city where parking spots are extra small (and parkade ceilings are extra low), and the gas bill round-trip would cost me about $25 (I’m in Canada where gas is about $4 per gallon).
Give me a Volt with electric drive for most trips around town, and the flexibility to take longer trips out of town.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:37 am)The Volt/GM is losing the public mindshare to Leaf/Nissan
Where is the marketing strategy? Seems like GM marketing leadership had more interest in the EV1 than the Volt.
Video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLknNrrL6QU&feature=related
Video 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwJCK6G38kg&feature=related
Video 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75KuOkIFPiU&feature=watch_response
-9
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:37 am)Ridiculous, all of it, who wants to plug in a car, I think all my outlets outside are painted over anyways, it’ll never work, I’ll just start growing my own tomatoes too. dumb de dumb dumb dumb
+4
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:37 am)Well, someone may buy a Leaf and happily go 840 miles on a plane, train bus, rental car or motorcycle and their fuel use will likely look just like a Volt owners. It’s a pointless argument…can’t we just let this nonsense go? And really I don’t think we’re all hopelessly intellectually limited, just dead set in our arguments one way or the other. Is it not possible to agree that the Volt would work great for some and the Leaf for others?
Can we stop the assuming that meeting my own personal needs are the only ones that count, and any other effort at getting alternatives to gas burning will be stupid? Will be automatic failures? Will be a niche so limited that the people served are not worth helping?
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:40 am)The Leaf is as real as the Volt (after all it’s due out in the US and Japan in Dec 2010) – it’s been documented a few times that the Leaf Chairman has said he wanted to keep the development as low key as possible to beat the competition! Check out the very very good article by CNN at this link: http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/16/autos/nissan_leaf_ghosn.fortune/index.htm
Carlos Ghosn:
“Our communications about the electric car should not be very convincing,” he says. “I don’t want to wake up the competition. Every day they don’t decide [to develop electric vehicles] is a good day for us.”
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:41 am)Two relevant comparisons:
1. Last week Ghosn was at the ground breaking ceremony for the battery production facility which will supply cells for the Leaf. Production capacity will be 200,000/year. Whiteacre may not know where the LG Chem battery facility is (he may not even have been at GM when this happened so he gets a pass, plus GM was busy with other issues when LG Chem broke ground). Production capacity will be 50,000/year.
2. Ghosn says that EVs are the future and all companies will get on board. In his words, you can’t sell 2 billion cars a year and not power them electrically. Whiteacre says that driving the Volt was eyeopening because it didn’t feel like a golf cart.
The big remaining advantages IMHO for the Volt in the PR arena, and it’s not really enough given that CEOs get the press, is Tony Posawatz has to be the best ambassador you could have for an EV and the Volt process has been much more transparent.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:41 am)Hype of a green, eco-friendly kind is very magnetic. No surprise to me…..oil has become a dangerous, dirty word with all the fighting going on in the world over it and the environmental disasters that are occurring because of it.
People badly want an alternative, as shown by the response to the Leaf…. but the question remains, will they choose it? I have no doubt the Volt will catch on while the Leaf will flounder due to all the reasons we’ve been talking about amongst ourselves for the last few years. Just watch.
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:44 am)A car guy will never really truly understand the love I will have for a car…that has no engine.
Just like I will never understand people who love cars.
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:46 am)/had my laptop battery fail at it’s connection from overheating (2003 tech), so, am using a friends computer. (Impressive how the fail-safe on the battery worked, the plastic holding the 8 contacts melted away from the computer’s internal contact sets in a very increasingly-measured way all along the contacts, for each of the 8 battery contacts).
Anyway, I think the Volt is indeed far more popular from the standpoint that the GM-Volt audience likely was going over to the Leaf site, as well as all of Leaf’s possible BEV competition also going over to the Leaf site to do their required homework.
/..back to work. Hopefully I don’t need a new computer at the same time.LOL!)
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:50 am)This excellent CNN article mentions the weight of the pack – and has photos of it:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/16/autos/nissan_leaf_ghosn.fortune/index.htm
The pack weighs under 300kg. I can imagine that given the lack of petrol engine, fuel tank, oil storage and exhaust system the car would weigh 800+ lbs less.
This article puts the cars weight at 1545kg = 3400 lbs aprox
http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2010/04/13/nissan-leaf-or-mitsubishi-i-miev-which-electric-car-has-the-edge/
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:52 am)When the Volt is officially announced as available for purchase there will be a tremendous amount of free press later this year. While there’s been a fair amount of media coverage already, the fact that a “revolutionary” new car is now available in showrooms will create a firestorm of coverage that will catapult the Volt into the American consciousness. It will be a time to remember. The day an American car company rose like a phoenix from the ashes of ruin to change the way people think about cars.
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:53 am)I’ll take the bet. I have no problem putting “virtual dollars” on this bet!
Actually the Volt will probably weigh more than the Leaf. Stands to reason that the ICE and its components would weight less than the extra batteries than Nissan will have in the Leaf, especially given the tank-like construction of the Volt battery pack.
But it probably won’t be a big difference. And the Volt may end up being the more efficient car. In my mind, while the Volt will have great new efficient tires, the efficiency battle is won at higher speeds and in drive train losses. Drive train losses compose a large part of total losses at both low and high speeds, and at higher speeds losses to drag predominate. My guess is that the Volt will be more aerodynamic, mostly based on the fact that Nissan isn’t saying anything about drag. My other guess is that the Volt will have fewer drive train losses because the the two mode electronic transmission. If this is true then the Volt can spot the Leaf quite a few pounds and still come out on top.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:55 am)Yes, and “pure BEV’s” are clearly not popular with a lot of us here.
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:04 am)For people who live in Europe and elsewhere then mains = 240v, then the charge is 7 hours.
For people who live in America – the 220v charge-point installation cost wouldn’t be too high – and it’s the same as a washer/dryer runs on.
I think it’s a perfect 2nd car… but also a 1st car for people that don’t have relatives a long way away and don’t drive distances and countries that have a good public transport (most of Europe) and take flying / train holidays rather than driving ones.
+8
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:07 am)And don’t forget to mention battery aging!
The Volt’s battery pack design has extra capacity to deal with aging, so that the Volt still has 40 miles AER at end-of-life.
Specifically, GM says they will play with the points at which the charger shuts off and the ICE turns on in order to maintain 8 kWh of usable battery over the life of the car. Here’s an example of how that might happen:
VOLT BATTERY AGING … New … 5 years … 10 years … End of life
Total capacity (kWh) ……… 16 …… 14.5 ……… 13 ………… 12
Charger shuts off at ……… 80% … 82% ……… 85% ……… 87%
ICE turns on at ……………… 30% … 27% ……… 23% ……… 20%
Available kWh ………………… 8 ……… 8 …………… 8 …………… 8
GM could set the trip points more aggressively from day one, so that you would start with something like 54 miles of AER and gradually decrease. But setting the trip points aggressively at the beginning would probably cause the battery to wear out sooner than 10 years.
In addition, GM’s battery has a circulating liquid thermal management systems that includes an on-board heater for cold weather, and a separate external radiator for warm weather.
Bottom line: GM has opted for a more conservative battery design that should last significantly longer than the Leaf.
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:08 am)Unfortunately, good public transportation is hard to come by in most parts of this country. And the government doesn’t have the will to change that.
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:09 am)I have not bothered to put myself on the gm-volt.com interest list, since I figure it has no official standing. I would have put myself on the “official” Volt list, but I am unaware of any such list. Even after reading this article, I am unsure such a list exists. Is this just the email list (which I’m on) or is it something more?
I guess I’ll look for that Volt facebook page. I hadn’t heard of that one either. Is it official or unofficial?
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:24 am)The Leaf may end up using more gasoline than the Volt.
For example, most people who are interested in the Leaf say they will use their other car or a rental for longer trips. Let’s run the numbers on that. Let’s say the other car is a Toyota Corolla.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ………………………………… Gallons per year
Volt ………………………………………… 37
Nissan Leaf/Toyota Corolla … 39
Prius ……………………………………… 228
30 MPG car …………………………… 380
20 MPG car …………………………… 570
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:29 am)I just b|tch and curse when I have to pump gas. So ultimately what I do less is drive less.
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:30 am)305 million dissenting opinions – and every single one of them believes the government acts as though the it has been hijacked by space invaders…Government of by and for the people!
“Sir we have met the enemy and he is us” – from a poster for for Earth Day 1970, by Walt Kelly, creator of the comic strip character Pogo.
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:30 am)I thought that most places in Europe have good public transportation?
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:33 am)Nissan Leafs draf coefficient is 0.28… look at it – it’s as streamlined as the Volt if not more arrow shaped. Drag coefficient only becomes significant at highway speeds – wind resistance is parabolic I believe (square the energy for 2x the velocity).
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:37 am)LOL
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:48 am)From what I saw when we visited friends, public transportation in and near the cities is excellent, but it quiclky dies off after that. So as Jean-Charles says, if you live 40+ miles from the city, you’ll probably end up driving at least part of the way.
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:54 am)The Leaf’s Cd isn’t mentioned much, but it looks like Nissan’s done their homework. Reportedly a 0.28 (same as the volt), it’s an inch narrower but 5 inches taller, uses smaller wheels (likely carrying less weight — 205/55 r16 vs the volt’s 215/55 r17 — compare load ratings on these tires if you like). The underside of the Leaf is almost completely smooth — that’s going to help a lot.
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:55 am)Agreed. When I was working in London, mass transit was awesome.
When I took the train to tiny Stowmarket, things changed a great deal.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:58 am)I predict Volt and Leaf will equally success. end users can always upgrade their battery in the future. 100 miles may be not enough range for some people today but with tomorrow battery technology, the same weight and dimension. >200 and more is possible. Leaf is good enough for 2 cars family.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:07 pm)The only think I know is they’ve said it’s .29. But that was offhand and the fact is that some companies are very accurate with their drag co-efficients and some are inclined to hype the numbers. If Nissan had an advantage over the Volt in this department I think we’d be hearing about it. As far as looking aerodynamic, the fact is that looks can be deceiving. Extensive wind tunnel testing has shown that squared off and sharp edges can be more aerodynamic than smooth edges.
Drag goes up by the cube of the velocity so it’s the largest factor in the equation. Also note that the frontal area is also an important factor — it’s CdA not just Cd.
Drive train losses, however, are important at all speeds. They matter a lot when you’re going slow and when you’re going fast.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:13 pm)Yes. The reality has set in so harshly for MiniE drivers that they are signing up for another lease period in record numbers. Though I suspect that is more because there are no other reasonable alternatives available.
By your logic shouldn’t we we see a constant stream of MiniE drivers running along the shoulders of the nations highways screaming, no don’t do it, it’s a death trap it’ll leave you stranded, the mileage claims are lies, all lies!!!!!! Where are all these people?
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:14 pm)You don’t need to put yourself on a want or wait list to get a Volt
I just talked to my chevy dealer and they expect to get 2-4 Volts by April 2011. He indicated that I would definitely get one of these cars if I put a deposit ($500) down. They have been getting lots of interest in the Volt but no one has yet put any cash down to reserve one !
Call your dealer !
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:17 pm)http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index?dcp=ppn.39666654.&dcc=0.216878497#/leaf-electric-car/gallery/view/car/12
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index?dcp=ppn.39666654.&dcc=0.216878497#/leaf-electric-car/gallery/view/car/16
….pretty smooth
-1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:19 pm)I don’t ever recall the CD of the LEAF ever mentioned…..lol
The LEAF fit’s my needs best. As Dave G @83 points out, many buying the LEAF indicate they will rent or use their other car for long distance. That is exactly what we will do, not rent though cuz we already own the big car.
But here’s the catch, if we bought a Volt it seats only 4, The LEAF seats 5 but shit, we all know the middle is going to hold the cooler, and my wife packs like were moving when we take our long drive to Disneyland on 3day weekends. So either way, neither the Volt or the LEAF will work as far as storage capacity.
So I figured if neither cars will work for storage and long haul drive for my fam of 4 then why spend more $$$ on one and just buy the one that will eliminate 100% of my work driving commute and intercity roundabouts with the highest cumulative rate of rebates.
/not that I have the $$$ for either one but i’m justsayin……..BROKE AZZ CA!!
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:19 pm)On the 440v DC socket (the Leaf has 2 charging ports) the car will fast charge to 80% in 26 minutes = 80 miles range. So not 500,000V! Ok that’s a lot of juice. Figuring 24kW battery of which 70% used, of which 80% is charged = 15000kW in 26 minutes = 32kW = (3 electric showers, or 10 3000watt vacuum cleaners or 6 ceramic / induction plates running at once). It’s a lot but it’s not horrendous. FYI – 80% in 26 minutes is only 3C (3x max depletion rate) taking it the last 20% you have to be more careful and use a lower voltage – so this fast charging will not damage the leaf battery. ie. most mobile phones will fast charge more than 50% in half an hour.
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:23 pm)It’s hard to diversify your economy when you have oil. Countries with large amounts of natural resources are frequently at a long term disadvantage. And, unless the country in question already has a history of democracy, they often wind up with totalitarian repressive regimes since the governments don’t need to rely on the populace for tax revenue.
That said, many middle eastern economies are already under serious pressure. They used oil proceeds to buy off their populations. With steady population growth that’s becoming increasingly expensive. They’re draining their aquifers, so they need more and more of their oil to provide them with fresh water. Their oil reserves aren’t infinite. If the price of oil can’t increase to compensate–which it isn’t at the moment, and can’t indefinitely, they’re going to have serious problems. It’s already starting to happen in Iran.
This, of course, will mean massive amounts of refugees flooding into Europe and possibly North America…
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:25 pm)If you’re filling up, you should probly do that upwind, or you’ll end up with a bad taste in your mouth too
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:36 pm)In what way is a Volt which is unavailable superior to any available vehicle? I would like to buy a Volt, but it looks like several years, if ever, before one is available here in CT. The dealer has my $1000 deposit, so I am serious.
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:37 pm)Not that it means a lot (unconfirmed, no source) but here’s a link to the Leaf’s 0.28:
http://cwweb.cr.atl.publicus.com/article/20091007/TOKYO/910079992
I hear you on the combo. I figure once I get an electric car I’ll drive my pickup less than 5k per year . . . which means the pickup will last for … well … ever, I guess.
-1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:37 pm)Last I heard the LEAF was based on a new platform, larger than the Versa in all dimensions.. also the Volt may come in at 3900lbs, from the Jay Leno interview when Farah did the head bob. Some rumors the Cruze is around 3300lbs.
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/hybrids/green-garage-2011-chevy-volt/
In any case it really does not matter much in an electric, if you dont care much for sports car acceleration.
Did you see the AESC web site?.. they have a LEAF mule under test that has reached 150k miles, 3.5 years.
http://www.eco-aesc.com/en/fieldtest.html
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:40 pm)Also, It’s hard to diversify your economy
when you have oilwithout vision, a sense of purpose, dedication to that purpose and a strong sense of duty to your country, it’s citizens and their quality of life.“Easy come easy go” is not a workable economic change thesis, unless the theme is – “to the bottom…fast.”
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:49 pm)That makes sense. And while I would expect “hard core environmentalists” to gravitate towards the cities where they could take public transportation, it never seems to work out like that….
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:53 pm)Excellent! Everyone’s demographics problems get fixed.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:59 pm)I was all set to make a brilliant comment, then I saw post #11, and saw someone more brilliant than me made it first.
Jun 1st, 2010 (12:59 pm)
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:01 pm)LEAF is like HALO in at least one respect — both are four letter words.
And so, with no further ado, here is a random bit of EV news from Atlanta:
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2010/05/17/story1.html?s=industry&b=1274068800
Despite what the article hopefully suggests, the only carmaker not to abandon the State of Georgia is KIA (GM and Ford both closed their plants here). No, we can’t offer incentives to manufacturers. I’d suggest that the States who do are the closest to bankruptcy; a bit like a nude man who offers to loan you his trousers. It will be interesting to see if manufacturers start saying, “um, how ’bout no?“
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:08 pm)Hey, when are we supposed to get the CS mode MPG? Or is it tied to the selling price?
/I guess their a co-dependent thing to release?
//last I heard we’d hear something 6 months prior to sell date, then I keep hearing…..”stay tuned”.
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:10 pm)I’m starting to hear static … or do I mean statik?
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:11 pm)… speaking of EV’s and tires and Cd:
EV Tires, This Time From Michelin
http://electricnick.com/2010/01/12/ev-tires-this-time-from-michelin/
/ I think this is indicative of the efficiency tweaks we’ll see as EV’s come into mainstream. A few percent here, a percent or two there, before you know it you’re traveling a noticeable amount further on the same kwh.
// We haven’t even begun to see how the charging infrastructure/process will be tweaked.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:12 pm)Start listening at 10:30: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVwtwhvmK0I
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:16 pm)I H8 that sh|t when they do that. Talk about special interest crap. CA is one of the worst offending brkoe mofo state. They do that shit all the time. Tax breaks and Incentives means tax payers here need to bend over with a bottle of KY. Sure they want those jobs here but at our expense. There should be a flat fee accross all states. That way the decision is based on business location and not tax evasion or crap incentives. Small biz never get tax breaks nad incentives, just the big boys/girls. All the while small biz gets screwed.
OK, i’m ranting now…lol, i’ll stop.
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:18 pm)The most populous Arab nation in the world s Egypt, and it doesn’t have any oil to speak of. It also has a literacy rate which is frighteningly high. But yes, even nations with a lot of oil have relatively young, uneducated, and poor populations.
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:22 pm)Yeah but will they smoke up like the ol tires when i’m doing donutholes in front of the trailer park?
I saw that spoke one on a discovery channel one time. Back then they called it a “Twheel”. Looked promising and very light. No flats either.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:23 pm)The good news may be that there are no states near bankruptcy. The bad news is that this is because states can’t declare bankruptcy. LOL But if and when states do end up insolvent it will be because of promised pensions and health benefits they can’t pay for, not these relatively small incentive programs, most of which involve tax breaks rather than actual payments.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:26 pm)I’m on the GM-Volt.com list but will not buy the car. I signed up when we all thought the Volt would seat 5. With 4 kids I’m afraid 5 seats is my absolute minimum for a 2nd car. I’ll consider a LEAF if the battery warranty is acceptable.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:31 pm)Thanks DonC! He sez .29 CD.
Another interesting clip came up on the right hand list of Nissan video commercials titled “Nissan Commercial”…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKO-tZGuFDg&feature=related
It’s for the Pathfinder though, but I HAD to watch it.!!!!!!
/disclaimer, keep your pacemakers under control!!!!
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:31 pm)=============================
Thanks, but my wife still says I am an idiot………………..
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:36 pm)My thoughts.
1. Leaf is new, if Volt were just announced less would know about it, more would search.
2. Leaf did offer a reservation system for 99 bucks. People have to do a web search and read before putting down their reservation.
3. Over the next year I think Volt will have more searches from this point on.
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:37 pm)Thanks for the link.
….and now we know: “catfish eyes” = quiet ride.
/The front of the Leaf just got a little better looking.
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:38 pm)A light weight of 3,400 lbs, combined with 370 lb-ft of torque (in sport mode) will make Volt a real kicker off the line! I was expecting something closer to 3900 lbs, thanks to the battery weight. I hope something closer to 3,400 lbs comes to pass as Statik’s analysis shows.
Understandably, the kick will fade as one gets nearer to highway speeds, as the 150 horsepower rating (sport mode, again) dictates. So I would expect highway passing performance to be only lukewarm — better than many economy cars, but certainly not in the same league as other $40K cars. But then, with rebates, we’re not talking $40K anyway.
Overall though, I want the plug, not a BMW. And with each passing day and each test drive report, the Volt is sounding a lot more like a BMW than I would have expected.
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:42 pm)Most of the countries involved have made attempts to improve and diversify their economies. But there’s no one guaranteed investment that can do that. It’s easy to say we need to spend more on education. Or adopt more free market reforms. But in practice, it’s hard to make any change from the status quo. Especially when you have plenty of oil money.
And it’s almost impossible to develop any kind of manufacturing when your currency is already high because of oil exports. And most manufacturing uses water. Which is scarce in the middle east.
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:43 pm)No different here in Connecticut. I wonder if it’s States that start with the letter C ?
Or maybe just States with crocked government. (That would be us too).
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:51 pm)I’m sure the Leaf is more popular now because they have an actual car with an actual price and are taking orders. Until GM announces the Price and begins to aggressively market the Volt the Leaf will remain on top.
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:53 pm)Why would a manufacturer care about the solvency of the state its plant is located in? Generally, the poorer the area, the better the manufacturer likes it. That way they can get away with paying lower wages and benefits.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (1:54 pm)bitguru, One signs up for the “official list” at the site Chevrolet.com/Volt. Just under the top large picture of the Volt, to the right of the “Charge Calendar,” it says: “Keep me updated,” then a box to put your email in titled: “sign up.” That’s what you are signing up for, Chevrolet Volt updates. I went back and forth with the GM rep to make sure that was the “official list” being referred to. I was assured that regular updates would come, including the eventual release of the MSRP. I was then told that that list would “mean something” to potential Volt buyers.
There is also a Facebook page, but I don’t have a facebook account, by choice. There is also a Twitter feed you can sign up for, but I don’t Tweet either.
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:01 pm)Naah, that’s why you hang on to your other sweet ride.
Ryans trailerpark burnout… with a lil dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNS40ZsbrNs
/good times, good times…
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:05 pm)I received the following from Chevrolet , on April 22,2010.
“Michael,
It’s Earth Day. A day to celebrate the place we all call home. And, as part of the celebration, we’ve added new photos of the Chevrolet Volt at chevy.com. (Pictures are at the very bottom of the page chevrolet.com/volt) . . . A sustainable future is the only future, and we’re working hard to be a part of it.”
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:10 pm)I hate it too. To make matters even worse, our states have, in the past ten years or so, been outbid by other countries. And the jobs go overseas. And we can’t stop other countries from bidding. And, then, even manufacturers that don’t want to go overseas are forced to do so, because otherwise, the subsidies from the other countries to their competition will render them uncompetitive.
However, there are certain industries that can’t go overseas. Like, say, sports teams. I think there should be a ban on taxpayer subsidies to them.
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:13 pm)Every state gives out these incentives. And many cities do to. Of course, that doesn’t mean it isn’t tied to corruption…I don’t think there’s a state in this country that doesn’t have a corruption problem.
Although I personally think that New York has the worst government…
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:14 pm)Exactly! I couldn’t have ranted it better, myself.
Lists are cheap. I vote with my checkbook, not with lists. When GM shows me the bottom line, I will then be able to cast that vote. I’ve never actually signed for any of the interest lists. I get enough bulk e-mail as it is. 
Nissan’s list is a path to a mostly known transaction agreement. I’m not surprised there’s going to be more interest than there is for a non-committal list to an unknown transaction agreement.
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:20 pm)OUCH!
OUCH
OUCH
OUCH
Umm…tough crowd!
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:27 pm)Yes, and I then got one mostly with battery news on May 27. Unfortunately by the time their emails get converted to plain text (at work), they are so ugly I tend not to even read them… Oh well that’s high security for you.
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:34 pm)Correct, I forgot that one (I wasn’t home when it came, so I hadn’t filed it in my “Volt” mailbox). That’s the one that included:
“The Chevrolet battery cell and pack laboratory is one of the largest automotive battery labs in the world. It’s home to a group of engineers who work night and day, running numerous tests to help develop the Volt battery pack. They are currently working on the fifth design iteration pack after eclipsing the 700,000-mile endurance mark this month.”
So, I guess that’s one a month “regular updates.”
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:42 pm)No. But they get lots of foreign aid from the US. Plus they have a thriving tourist trade. (Which comprises 16% of their economy.) And they send us lots of ancient art exhibits that they get paid handsomely for.
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:43 pm)Always thought this was an interesting contrast to the BMW approach — where they pull in $850/month on each mini-e lease, sit back, and watch others white wash the fence.
/ no offense, Lyle
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:45 pm)Though remember Nissan’s latest list started with a non-committal list. Folks on that list were sent an email saying come and sign up for your car. Pretty slick system really. So far no fighting for position in lines for products with limited availability. No one throwing wads of cash at dealers and yelling me first. No stalkers following lines of customers to the showroom with hope of a quick killing on eBay. Making use of 20th century technology to market and sell cars, pretty advanced.
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:46 pm)Ah-ha! That’s where I read about the 5th generation on the battery. Hopefully we will get 2nd or 3rd gen batteries in GenI Volts! I would think that the product design is frozen now though.
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:46 pm)As you are aware, GM didn’t have time to “sit back and watch others.” They promised November 2010 for quality assured product out the door.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:58 pm)You’re not going going to drive across the country with that.
Again, in order for most people to get rid of their gas engine cars, they would want to be able fast charge 300 miles of range in 10 minutes. That would take a 500,000 watt connection, and that’s inherently dangerous.
Here’s why I’m so passionate about this. Many people seem to feel that EREVs are a temporary solution, and that new battery technology and fast charging stations will soon replace the internal combustion engine. With this in mind, many car manufactures and consumers may just skip the interim EREV step and wait for the final BEV solution.
But what happens if this final solution doesn’t materialize? Then the promise of pure BEVs and fast charging stations will just maintain the status quo. The oil companies will keep their $billions per quarter record profits, Arabs keep financing suicide bombers with oil money, Iran keeps building nukes, etc.
And we’ve seen this happen before. Whether you believe it was intentional or not, the fact is that the promise of fuel cells effectively killed the California zero emission mandate, and that’s what killed the EV-1 and the RAV-4 EV.
So as the song says:
“Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
We don’t get fooled again”
+3
Jun 1st, 2010 (2:59 pm)Early adopters of new technology tend to think in terms of being on the bleeding edge without considering the cost-to-practicality ratio.
Also, I know people who spend a ridiculous amount of money on the “latest and greatest” item (not necessarily a car) and they will justify their purchase as ridiculous as it may be.
How about timeshares? Sounds like a great idea… for less than 5% of the population that is.
“But I save so much money on hotels!”
“Yeah, but you blow your savings on maintenance fees”
“But I have my own place to stay in Mexico!”
“Only if somebody else doesn’t have your week booked. And open up your horizons… a tourist town catering to Americans in Mexico isn’t exactly the most exotic destination to see on Earth.”
“But I’ve been told by the the salesman that timeshares are the best idea ever! Don’t tell me otherwise! Don’t make me cry by exposing me to reality!”
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (3:00 pm)Well, BMW’s already got 18 months of real world testing under their belt, AND they’ve pulled in millions through the lease revenues in the process; all without building and staffing a new laboratory. I suppose it’s arguable who’s in front at this point.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (3:03 pm)That’s exactly why I put my reservation in for a LEAF. But I’ll still consider a Volt in 2014 if I can get one, otherwise it’s the 2 car solution!
Go EV!!!
Jun 1st, 2010 (3:05 pm)Yes, well said, +1.
Jun 1st, 2010 (3:15 pm)Help me out here, I can’t remember who supplied the batt pack for them, BMW that is. Was it Tesla or AC Propulsion?
Or was it Tesla Batt pack and AC Prop drive train? Either way BMW took an already avail (off the shelf?) parts and plopped into a Mini and it looks like it works for them. Maybe the $850/month lease paid for all the R & D? It should’ve considering there was not much R & D to do with these ready made parts.
/Ford needs to hurry up with their Focus EV.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (3:18 pm)Probably because you’re not doing it right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQHVrOyDxiA
Jun 1st, 2010 (3:32 pm)I think most of the drivetrain components and the battery were sourced from AC propulsion on the mini-e. I don’t know where ACP gets their batteries from.
I keep hoping Ford’s got bigger plans than they’ve revealed on their BEV- with their partner’s battery plant going up in Holland, MI and all.
JCI battery plant expected to bring 550 jobs to Holland by 2014
http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2010/01/jci_batter_plant_expected_to_b.html
Jun 1st, 2010 (3:45 pm)You’d think the smart thing would be to have sourced the batteries from several different manufacturers so you could compare real world performance and durability results. Maybe that’s what ACP/BMW did.
Jun 1st, 2010 (3:57 pm)lol……
That brings up a point, with an EV you eliminate the stealing/siphoning of gas too!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9eYHJQKIDE
Jun 1st, 2010 (4:04 pm)I read an article they use the same type of cells (pack too maybe?) as Tesla. I’d post the link but then it’d get modded.
This sounds like a good time for all these car mfgrs to standardize on a pack config (Voltage and physical dimension). Doing so might help get costs down and maybe even third party vendors in the door to compete in the price wars. If not dimensions, at least the voltage and offer a capacity options and/or additions.
/just a crazy azz thought.
Jun 1st, 2010 (4:11 pm)Nissan LEAF Early Adopters Won’t Get Gouged By the Dealer – Here’s Why.
http://gas2.org/2010/05/26/nissan-leaf-early-adopters-wont-get-gouged-by-the-dealer-heres-why/
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (4:56 pm)The article says, “the difference in the distribution process is, it’s not an allocation to the dealer, it’s a customer order, so [the customers] have the control… if you go to any particular dealer and say ‘I have an order, would you like to deliver my lease?’ and they come back with a price $5,000 higher than list, you can simply take your order and go to another dealer… Plus, there’s always the onus of bad press to discourage dealers in the first place.”
I think that customers are going to be doing a lot of walking from dealer to dealer until they find one that won’t be price gouging. There’s been lots of bad press in the past about dealer gouging for new cars and it’s never stopped them before, so I don’t know how this “new and fantastic” method of buying a car will change much.
+1
Jun 1st, 2010 (4:57 pm)=================================
That is why I am on Lyle’s list here and the Chevy list as well.
I still have faith that GM is going to reward some of the loyal followers of this site!!!
Hope springs eternal………………..
Jun 1st, 2010 (4:59 pm)Yep, looks like they’re using the small cells like Tesla — who also contracted AC propulsion so maybe it’s nearly the same battery(?).
Tesla: 53000 wh / 6,831 cells = 7.76 wh/cell
Mini-E: 35000 wh / 5,088 cells = 6.88 wh/cell
——————————
“Because they were being made by the millions, using them to store energy for electric cars would be a huge time saver compared with developing a battery pack from scratch. Each lithium-ion battery cell is about the size of a tube of lipstick. They are racked together by the hundreds into modules.
For example, the BMW Mini test cars — the Mini E — have 5,088 of them in their battery packs.”
AC Propulsion has been electrifying cars for decades
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/entre/2010-05-10-entre10_ST_N.htm
Jun 1st, 2010 (5:06 pm)lol….never said it wasn’t going to stop them.
But bad press is gonna be bad press. If a dealer won’t “honor” your manufacturer’s “customer order” from Nissan, then you’re just shootin yourself in the foot. Are you as a dealer going to turn away *Tax, License, Doc Fees, Dest charge, possible additional warranty, etc…”?
But then again, that’s JIMHO.
Hey CorvetteGuy! What’s your take on this?
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (5:14 pm)The Nissan folks are for the most part simply doing a better marketing job.
While many of us have followed the Volt’s development here for the last 3 years, and we recognize the practical advantages of an EREV versus present generation BEVs and know the Volt’s development has been more open than any of GM’s previous cars, Nissan somehow seems to have creatively leapfrogged the Volt’s marketing efforts.
Maybe the Leaf’s marketing appears more up front and is not seen as slow as the “trickle down” information approach. Nissan’s simply providing customers with an understandable package of useful information. Nearly all of the things a Leaf buyer needs to know to make an informed purchase decision are already being provided today. All that’s left is a visit to a local Nissan showroom for a test drive when the Leafs arrive. Leaf customers may also be aware of stories about the car’s battery pack future upgrades which may, in the not too distant future, provide the next generation Leaf with a 200-300 mile all-electric range. This may help them view their Leaf investment today as a better trade-in value, and one that does not use any gas at all.
While I continue to hope the Volt becomes more popular and the production numbers increase, does anyone yet know the size of the Volt’s gas tank?
Jun 1st, 2010 (5:18 pm)In the past, for other new car introductions discussed at other message forums, people have brought up the concept of buying directly from the manufacturer to avoid gouging… this is what Nissan is proposing here. But apparently, there are franchise laws protecting the dealers from the rug being pulled out from under them by the manufacturer, like in this situation. What’s the deal?
Jun 1st, 2010 (5:22 pm)Tesla uses regular laptop cells – the ones that sometimes catch fire. Tesla has designed the pack assembly to physically shield the cells from one another, so that if one cell catches fire, it won’t spread. However, with this design, if the integrity of the pack is compromised in an accident, all bets are off. What’s more, when the cells short and cause a rapid discharge of energy, that’s when they tend to catch fire. So an accident that ruptures the pack and shorts several cells could be more dangerous.
GM uses a different type of chemistry that doesn’t catch fire or explode, even if the pack is ruptured, or if the cells short. As an example, the KillaCycle uses similar chemistry batteries, and when it crashed, it ruptured the pack and shorted some cells. Nothing happened. Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV8_meso6kU
That would be like all car manufacturers standardizing on the same engine. It’ll never happen.
Besides, at this early stage of EV development, it’s better to have many different technologies fighting it out in the market to see which one is really better.
The battery pack includes a processor and software to manage all aspects of the battery. This is proprietary software that includes a lot of intellectual property. Since the software is proprietary anyway, it doesn’t really matter if the cell voltages are standardized – it’s probably just a different software parameter.
Jun 1st, 2010 (5:26 pm)And that is why I’m on GM-Volt.com “want list” and “chevy.com list,” and have a $500 deposit in at my dealer. As the Brits say, “belts and braces” (belt and suspenders).
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (5:28 pm)Where does this statistic (WAG) come from. I could throw out a half dozen WAG’s to counter each one of yours, but what’s the point?
Neverrrr mind… since we’re here anyway, 98% of the population will buy battery electric cars when they can charge up with 223 miles of range within 16 minutes and 34 seconds. Safety of charging will be readily accepted by the public. It’s a well known fact. See my spreadsheet at http://www.jefswild-guesses.net for absolute proof. Note: these are not future guesses based on assumptions in a rapidly changing environment, they are proven facts.
OK it looks like it er uh, but they’re really facts. Well uh, based on facts. Which may at some point may actually have been assumed. IN um, a rapidly changing environment. Based on, well, a future that can’t be predicted. With technologies that are changing explosively. But other than that, they’re still facts dang it.
Jun 1st, 2010 (5:34 pm)lol……yeah I know, crazy thought.
Jun 1st, 2010 (5:40 pm)People have been driving this car for over 100 years:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9vC3S8MJPY
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:08 pm)Just pointing out the capabilities and what the studies say. Even a 60 mile trip to the airport is out of the capability of something with only a 100 mile range unless you can top off before the return trip. An evening outing or trip to a concert or sporting event can be out of range. Heck, many people in major cities don’t even own cars. If you’re in suburbia, it’s different. Sure, not everyone will be driving 800 miles in a day. That’s even the exception for me. I’m guessing I’m about average or maybe even below average in yearly mileage. Point is the average driver occasionally needs more than 100 mile range. The quick charging infrastructure is not there yet and is unlikely to be in place when the car reaches market. EREV is fully capable right out of the showroom and doesn’t need extra charging infrastructure to extend it’s function. BEV isn’t ready for mainstream yet. It’s my opinion is that even for people that might be able to utilize the Leaf, many might not make the purchase. Many will “what if” themselves out of it and decide to get an EREV or Hybrid. I’m not making it personal.
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:16 pm)First. A stirring Memorial Day message by Major Cullinane. It connects. All of it.
It was reported May 24, 2010 Nissan pre-sold its entire 2010 production of 20,000 cars. I question whether numbers of LEAF vs. VOLT searches correlate to sales or even interest. I think its an interesting point so far as LEAF’s market- ascension goes.
The horse I’m riding is that LEAF will be passe in short time. Here’s why.
At this point its all about chemistry and material science much more than oil exploration. It could be a breakthrough in Li-O (Lithium-air). Maybe EEStor. A 3x leap in Li-ion electrode efficiency. Fuel cells have been in the works for fifty-years. The sticking point being cost and durability. A breakthrough by elimination of Pt. (Platinum) in the catalytic layer. How about a 60,000 hour mobile methanol fuel cell. Both! Right now a cast of thousands are engaged.
One of these days its going to happen. The math does not favor LEAF. It could be Nissan anticipates some sort of a range upgrade. Good luck on that. 100,000 LEAFS discarding its maybe 100 mile range batteries for better range versions simply doesn’t wash.
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:18 pm)#25
I’m at some 3 digit number on the GM-Volt.com list, but have never signed up on the “official” GM list. As soon as I found this site, I gave up on GM’s. I’m not about to go back now. If that means I don’t exist to GM, oh well, I can wait. I’ve got plenty of cars, and I’ve just about gotten to the point I’d just as soon have the money in the bank. If they want to sell me a car, fine. If not, also fine.
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:21 pm)Thanks for the link. The folks at Tesla who have recorded battery progress faithfully since 2002, as though their careers depended on it, have written about battery improvements that exactly match your numbers – about 6%.
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:41 pm)Quick charging won’t matter for most of the thousands of people whose needs are met by the Leaf. My needs, the average needs, your needs and the distance the nearest airport is to me are not the main considerations for people who find the Leafs range satisfactory.
Charging infrastructure in the geographic areas of the Leaf’s introduction will be supplemented by over a $100 million dollars in upgrades and follow on studies. If I was to guess, my two cents would be that known patterns will hold, and fast charging will be a little used option that makes people feel a little more secure.
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:49 pm)Technically if the owner rarely ever goes past a 50mile round trip, the plane jane 120V charger ( SAE J1772 connector ) is enough to fill the batt pack back to full over night, that’s approx 12KWh. Why rush the charge on a daily basis? There’s no need. Now for driving to the airport, I wouldn’t consider leaving my car there any longer than 2 days. Any vacations that require over that much, I have a family member or friend drop off and pick us up. I just don’t trust leaving my car in a public place like that.
Charging infrastructure follow, just build it dangit!!!
Jun 1st, 2010 (6:53 pm)#36
Yeah, and tow trucks use a LOT of gas, LOL. +1
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:25 pm)Here, a large number of folks with perfectly usable cars use the shuttle services to get to the airport. As someone with a short commute, would it seem all that difficult to learn to live with a full tank of a hundred miles of range every morning and a rare stop at a fast charge station? It seems to be an idea that literally scares the cr_ _ out of a few folks, even though it will never be a situation they are never faced with.
Jun 1st, 2010 (7:48 pm)WHAT Chevy Volt interest list?! I just went to their site and don’t even SEE one!
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:08 pm)Nissan has advertised the Leaf in pretty much every available outlet for the last 60 days. Nissan has a goal to build a base upon which 500,000 Leaf will be sold.
Notice the wording. “Has a goal” and “500,000 will be sold”. A successful result starts with a target. And the will to hit it.
=D-Volt
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:21 pm)I agree, timeshares are exceedingly difficult for the average person to get an acceptable level of value. Good luck in your endeavors and don’t let a salesman try to convince you based on averages or typical expectations. Always go by your own demonstrated needs as you understand them.
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:34 pm)Allan, go back and read my comment at #128. The site is chevrolet.com/volt. I mention the exact location in my comment. It is a sign-up to get Chevrolet Volt updates. You won’t find a list. They just released the number of people signed up as a statement in another blog.
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (8:46 pm)From Tony DiSalle, Chevrolet Volt Product and Marketing Director:
Chevrolet Volt by the Numbers
6 – months before the Volt is scheduled to arrive in Chevrolet dealerships in California, Michigan and Washington, D.C.
300 – Volt battery packs produced to date at GM’s Brownstown Battery Assembly plant, which is the only operational automotive battery manufacturing facility in the United States
700 -Employees who have been trained to build the Chevrolet Volt at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly Plant
43,000 – Registered Volt enthusiasts on Chevrolet.com/volt who receive program updates on a regular basis
500,000 – miles driven in Volt development vehicles
850,000 – Simulated miles of customer driving in our battery lab at the Alternative Energy Center in Warren, Mich.
$700,000,000 – Invested in eight Michigan manufacturing sites for the production of the Chevrolet Volt
And let’s not forget some of the most important numbers – the Chevrolet Volt can travel up to 40 miles without burning gas. When the battery runs low you can continue driving an additional 300 miles without needing to stop to recharge the battery or refuel thanks to the Volt’s engine generator.
Jun 1st, 2010 (9:57 pm)Amen. +1
+2
Jun 1st, 2010 (10:31 pm)Its not a precise number, but its not a wild a$$ guess either.
Most gas engine cars have around 300 miles of range, and they take around 10 minutes to fill up at a gas station. In order for pure BEVs to go mass market, I believe they will have to be roughly as convenient as a regular gas engine car. Others on this site have echoed the same.
Here’s the reason I feel passionately on this particular subject: Many people seem to feel that EREVs are a temporary solution, and that new battery technology and fast charging stations will soon replace the internal combustion engine. With this in mind, many car manufacturers may decide to bypass the interim EREV step and just work toward the final pure BEV solution now.
But what happens if this final solution doesn’t materialize? If pure BEVs don’t go mainstream, then the promise of something perfect will actually help maintain the status quo. The oil companies keep their $billions per quarter record profits, Arabs keep financing suicide bombers with oil money, Iran keeps building nukes, etc.
Its happened before. The promise of fuel cells effectively killed the California zero emission mandate, and that’s what killed the EV-1 and the RAV-4 EV. We can argue about whether this was an intentional plot by the oil companies, or everyone just really underestimated the problems with hydrogen, but the fact is that something that seemed perfect at the time fooled us into forgetting about something else that was a lot more real.
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:09 pm)Wow! Only 16.8kWh usable? Do you really believe that? Nissan claims 100 miles on a charge, and that would be 6 miles per kWh. Even on the LA4 urban/suburban test cycle that is awfully high. Most people seem to think the Leaf will have at least 20kWh available, and there is some evidence that Nissan is actually building an larger pack than advertised, and the 24kWh is really the usable amount.
Jun 1st, 2010 (11:34 pm)Consumer owned, gas powered vehicles won’t start every morning with a full tank. It’s 300 miles minus the time, range, expense and inconvenience of getting fuel. Granted if the consumer is the CEO of an oil company, or has a fuel depot on their estate that’s not true.
In contrast, electric cars will operate on the assumption that they will be full to the brim, topped off and conditioned to start each morning. Yes BEV’s will absolutely require a constant connection and perhaps a 240 volt connector for those that push the range and charging limits. And there is no quick charging infrastructure.
But how is that when owners choose to bear these limitations, it becomes a negative for your household, when you will clearly be choosing a Volt over any BEV? It is clearly a choice that some of the 150,000 who have expressed interest in the leaf will make. These folks will be setting an example and breaking ground that makes the US more secure. Here’s hoping it’s a big enough success to convince Chevy to offer them the competition that you believe is so necessary. In the pure BEV space, pulling NA off of oil from across the ocean, one sale at a time.
Jun 2nd, 2010 (12:41 am)Prediction: Three years from now you will be getting unsolicited emails offering incredible bargains on a vAMPwire guaranteed to be able to suck electricity from any EV with a DC charging port.
/whether it will work is anybody’s guess, but it will prove EVs have arrived
Jun 2nd, 2010 (1:10 am)Just out of curiosity, is there some way I can find what my number is? I have an email nearly a year old telling me I was added to the list, but it doesn’t state a number.
+1
Jun 2nd, 2010 (5:22 am)That is then, this is now.
Sure there’s going to be many breakthroughs as time goes on. Today, in the internet information age, when Moore’s Law is sailing along and things double in efficiency every 18 months or so, it’s easy to get all caught up in the knowledge base and wait and see. Meanwhile O.P.E.C. nations are empowered and America is weakened. Meanwhile we continue to breathe toxic pollutants and potentially quicken the warming of our icecaps. Meanwhile the earth is losing marine life and people are losing their entire livelihoods as oil gushes at millions of gallons under the Gulf – pressing the ugly truth in such a graphic way.
LEAF is a breakthrough. Unlike GM, Nissan is taking large chances and putting a true mass production plan before citizens of the planet. GM, however plays politics and bottom line, PR and hedging like a violin. Nissan’s lease plan is perfect for this emerging lithium age. It’s on target with the logical timeline for range improvement through, as you say – engaging a cast of thousands with one incredibly vital and noble goal. Profits, large ones, will follow. Leaf purchasers or leaseholders will inevitably want to upgrade to longer range versions as they come online. Intelligent persons will invest in the future if purchasing, with the knowledge the vehicle is a commuter – grocery getter than gets them off oil. Leaseholders will enjoy these benefits while having confidence their options and performance will only increase as they support the evolution of how humans treat and power their world.
To embrace your attitude is like saying the Model T was passe and a failure because forecasts for future improved engines, suspensions, safety and tire technology would prove it a flash in the pan! How ridiculous! You have to get there from here – if a person was to pass off LEAF or Nissan’s commitment as unimportant due to future innovation, they would have to continue on spending their hard-earned money on finessed versions of 19th century flash and bang petroleum technology. Doing nothing for future generations.
Now does that make any sense?
RECHARGE! James
Jun 2nd, 2010 (5:28 am)Google fight!
Chevy Volt vs Nissan Leaf
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=chevy+volt&word2=nissan+leaf
=D-Volt
Jun 2nd, 2010 (7:17 am)If you mean your number on GM-Volt.com, it’s easy. Go to the top of any page here and click on “Want List.” When the next page comes up, put your email in (the one you used when you signed up) as if you were going to sign up. When you click on “continue” it will recognize you and bring you to your profile. Your number will be at the top. At this point you can edit your information if you wish.
Jun 2nd, 2010 (10:18 am)The Volt would be great for me. If I lived <20 miles from my work location. If I didn't work in multiple locations during the day. If I could plug it in while I'm working. If I never needed to do errands on the way home. If I never needed to drive 1200 miles to see my mother and my in-laws. If didn't own a large dog and need room to move her around.
Chevy has limited its market for this car. Limited it until we all change our lifestyles. I hate that we borrow money from China to buy oil from the Middle East so we can get to work. But that is the world that we in the U.S. have created. Hopefully this car can begin to change the game. There will need to be the ability to charge the car at work, a fee system for purchasing electricity from an employer, and the ability to rapidly charge a car in case of running out of juice! Are there no longer traffic jams in the world of the Volt?
Jun 2nd, 2010 (10:50 am)My personal experience (not a scientific survey) is that because of the advertising a lot more people know about the Leaf than the Volt. Furthermore, if people do know about the Volt most of them think it only has a 40 mile range….the whole range extender thing gets lost. So until GM starts advertising and explaining how the Volt works the Leaf is going to get more internet hits and more sign-ups on lists. Also because of the Government Motors stigma, I think GM should market the Volt as a green car in some markets (for over-simplicity let’s say blue states) and as an implied middle east oil buster in other markets (for more over-simplicity let’s say red states).
I also think the Leaf will be more popular with the hard core EV crowd. They will buy this as their everday commuter and use their Prius for longer drives. The Volt is targeted at the next layer down the pyramid (and hopefully much wider base) of people who want to use little to no gas. Some hard core EV-ers will buy both a Leaf and a Volt with the Volt replacing their Prius.
Jun 2nd, 2010 (11:28 am)I absolutely agree with you up to and beyond 100%. The technology is moving too fast for the first release to be of interest much longer. I guess that’s why Chevy and Nissan have been willing to agree to get information out on gen II before gen I even gets to the dealers.
Chevy though has been talking about making it less expensive where Nissan wants to offer a 200 mi range battery. Time will tell.
Jun 2nd, 2010 (11:59 am)I can’t speak for the size of your dog, but why in the world would any of the other “if”s be a problem? Wouldn’t you like to cut your gas cost in half going to see your mother? Wouldn’t you like to get 75 to 100 MPG driving to multiple work locations during the day? Or 150 MPG on a direct commute of 30 miles each way?
The Volt is indeed a 40 mile gas-free electric car, and for most of us, much of the time, that’s all we need. But when you need more range, the Volt will provide more, as much as you want, and it looks like it is going to do it as well as, or better than, any other car on the road.
Jun 2nd, 2010 (8:29 pm)How do you get on the official Chevrolet.com volt list? I couldn’t find a volt list sign-up on the website…Does anyone know how?
Thank you..
Jun 2nd, 2010 (8:34 pm)Volt = Too expensive + too late + too high risk on GM quality
I was a Volt fan but GM lost me to Nissan. Maybe someday they’ll get me back. Of course, if Nissan increases range to 200 miles in the future why would I need to haul around a gas powertrain all of the time?
Jun 2nd, 2010 (8:53 pm)Every manufacturer promoting electric cars is a win for America. Ending foriegn oil addiction should be the national priority.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-Fueled.
Jun 2nd, 2010 (10:39 pm)See my comment at #128. chevrolet.com/volt
Jun 3rd, 2010 (2:04 pm)The longer it takes GM to publicly announce the Volt’s MSRP, the greater the erosion of interest in it will be. I’ve subscribed to this Web site for a long time now, and sincerely want the Volt to be a home run for the domestic auto industry. However, reading endless posts about how GM continues to tinker with the car – as opposed to knowing concretely about what it’s going to cost – worries me.
Jun 3rd, 2010 (3:26 pm)the reason you haven’t heard an MSRP, is because they don’t know how to price it to be ANYTHING but a car that left wing liberals would want. Anybody in their right mind that would spend $40K on a compact car is out to lunch.
Price it to where someone could buy a Camry, and GM will own the roads.
Price it where sources are saying, you’ll be lucky to find many ever on the road.
THE ECONOMY SUCKS!! People aren’t going to buy this car because it is a little bit green…
Chevrolet just does NOT understand “value”. They haven’t for years. No wonder they continue to fail time after time.
Jun 3rd, 2010 (3:37 pm)Depends on how you look at it.
Nissan at least had set a price FIRST before opening the list and so they kind of ponied up some kind of unilateral commitment on their end before asking for a commitment to a non-binding list. If GM at the very least set a price, THEN I’d be willing to sign up for a non-binding list.
Bottom line is I’m not going to non-commit for non-committed and non-priced product! A guy has to have his standards!
Otherwise, I’d still be getting mail for the ZAP-X or EESTOR units or something.
Jun 5th, 2010 (12:59 pm)How does the Volt compare to the Leaf when search results are added for “chevrolet volt”?
Jun 7th, 2010 (9:59 am)In truth, this analysis is not completely reliable, and it should be noted there is a high degree of error in these charts based on sampling techniques used by Google when presenting this data. Furthermore, I’d recommend using Insights for Search to really get a better (but still not perfect) look at online search interest in both:
http://www.google.com/insights/search/#cat=47&q=nissan%20leaf%2Cchevy%20volt%20%2B%20chevrolet%20volt%20%2B%20gm%20volt&date=today%203-m&cmpt=q
Over the last 90 days, Leaf does appear to be outperforming. But what I think is more telling is when you look at the last 12 months:
http://www.google.com/insights/search/#cat=47&q=nissan%20leaf%2Cchevy%20volt%20%2B%20chevrolet%20volt%20%2B%20gm%20volt&date=today%2012-m&cmpt=q
Full disclosure, I have GM as a client, so I won’t explicitly draw any conclusions for anyone. But be careful before you take these data too seriously, there is a lot of random error present in the data set, and the differences between both vehicles is by no means statistically significant.
FWIW.