The plugin war between GM and Nissan is well underway. Of course at this point its all PR as no saleable vehicles are on the road. Theres’ no escaping the fact its Leaf versus Volt for the hearts minds and wallets of America.
The Volt has going for it exceptional design, and groundbreaking technology. It has no range limitations and most importantly will be made in America by an American company.
The LEAF has a more unique aesthetic, a hundred mile range under ideal conditions, and no range extender. Since Nissan announced pricing and created an online pre-order process first they are ahead of the Volt in PR, but are certain to have difficulty in managing expectations. The company regularly boasts about the growing number of people on their handrasier lists. Most recently Nissan’s CEO Carlos Ghosn announced that his compnay now has 13,000 pre-orders for LEAFs in the US, enough to essentially sell out the whole first year of US production allotment.
“We think there is a big future for this car,” said Ghosn. “I can already tell you that the production for 2010 is already sold out.”
As we know Nissan believes demand will continue to grow and plans to build a half million LEAFs per year starting in 2013.
GM appears to be taking a more measured approach. Even though the Volt would seem to have more widespread appeal and presumably similar pricing, they are only projecting building 50,000 to 60,000 cars globally beginning in 2012. They could expand capacity, however, if demand calls for it. Former GM vice chairman Bob Lutz said it was his dream GM could sell 500,000 Volts globally and would then open more Volt plants.
A burning question is whether Nissan could also be planning an EREV too.
When asked by reporters, Ghosn ruled it out.
“We wanted to do a zero-emission vehicle,” Mr. Ghosn said. “I don’t want gasoline in the car, period.”
Instead Nissan plans to build out the supporting public charging infrastructure ahead of regional rollouts.
“We don’t want to put the consumer in a situation where he buys the car and he doesn’t know how to charge it and he doesn’t know how to take care of it,” said Ghosn. “We will make sure that in the markets in which we put the car, the consumer has the basic infrastructure to be able to drive the car with peace of mind and not have to worry.”
I consider myself among the more committed people to getting the country off of oil, and I applaud Nissan for its efforts. One has to wonder which model will win more sales in this country however, BEV or EREV. I turned to Dave Cole, Chairman of the Center for Automotive Research for his opinion. He offers us the following comments:
I believe in the US there is limited potential for a pure electric because of range anxiety. The reason the plug-in is more practical is that a given volume of a liquid fuel contains a much greater amount of energy than a battery or for that matter, a compressed gas. A very long range electric would fill the back seat and trunk with batteries that would be very expensive. The electric makes the most sense for urban use with well defined travel patterns. This may be a bit different in other parts of the world. A plug-in like the Volt lets a person do most of his traveling in an urban area on battery power but for the week-end trip or extra city driving you shift to a small engine/generator that keeps the car going by charging the battery. Stay tuned. This story will be played out over the next 10 years.
The LEAF will launch in Washington, Oregon, California, Tennessee and Arizona in December. The entire US won’t see cars until the end of 2011. Will the $99 refundable Nissan waitlisters still be waiting by then? On June 30th Nissan plans to announce the next step for waitlisters to solidify their purchase positions.
Source (NY Times)
+16
May 26th, 2010 (6:39 am)Publically we say,
“We wanted to do a zero-emission vehicle,” Mr. Ghosn said. “I don’t want gasoline in the car, period.”
But deep in the skunk works of Nissan, engineers are secretly building an E-REV model, just in case.
+6
May 26th, 2010 (6:39 am)Thanks Lyle good info, I met the director of Nissan sales for Europe and he said exactly what his boss is saying.
JC NPNS
+11
May 26th, 2010 (6:40 am)Many people will be happy with the short range Leaf. It’s not for everyone. Maybe just one or two million. The other 5 million EV buyers will need extended range.
=D-Volt
+31
May 26th, 2010 (6:40 am)If the range extender uses biofuels, then EREVs provide a zero gas solution as well.
A lot of people seem to overlook this. Biofuels can’t replace gasoline by themselves, perhaps only 35%. But that’s more than enough to power EREV range extenders for everyone.
Zero gasoline, Zero net carbon emmissions, and all with the current infrastructure of home outlets and liquid fuel filling stations. What’s not to like?
+12
May 26th, 2010 (6:41 am)When asked by reporters, Ghosn ruled it out. “We wanted to do a zero-emission vehicle,” Mr. Ghosn said. “I don’t want gasoline in the car, period.”
The use of the past tense by Ghosn, when taken literally, means that his comment applies only to the Leaf and not to any future vehicle Nissan may bring to market.
But if Ghosn did, in fact, mean that Nissan won’t build an ER-EV, then God help him. He’s really boxed Nissan into a corner should the Leaf fail to gain traction with the public at large — especially if the range or battery life proves to be problematical. And I, for one, fully expect this to be the case given the speed with which Nissan is pushing this car to the market.
+5
May 26th, 2010 (6:43 am)Ghosn is overly optimistic about the long term acceptance of the LEAF’s limited range.
In addition, I’ve got to believe that many of the LEAF “early adopters” have money to burn.
Good luck with that combination.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (6:49 am)Let’s hope you’re right. The Volt needs some real competition in the mass market.
+6
May 26th, 2010 (6:50 am)For me the volt is the only one that will work. If the volt did not exist I would consider the leaf but with it’s limitations it would only be worth about $12,000 to me.
Tom
+12
May 26th, 2010 (6:50 am)It appears that Ghosn is over optimistic and GM is overly pessimistic. And they are playing the marketing game. The only thing that worries me is GM’s low production volume. That feels like a total lack of confidence in their ability. I really hope that they are able to open the spigot wide when they find out they have a winner.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (6:57 am)Both have shortcomings but the Volt still has a significant advantage until battery technology is fully developed
-3
May 26th, 2010 (6:59 am)Here’s an idea for Nissan. Rather than building a string of heavy cable fast charge stations along the highway. Design a ventable battery that will allow a gel electrolyte to be extruded in. Vent the spent gel into a reclaim storage system. Simply connect the charged gel “IN” line. Open the rear vent on the battery. Or have this done via sensor. Refill (inject or extrude) with active electrolyte gel. And drive off in less than 10 minutes. Use solar panels to recharge the spent gel. Much less cumbersome than having EV drivers compete for 10 or 12 heavy cable units.
=D-Volt
May 26th, 2010 (7:00 am)What Nissan is doing is really fairly low risk, IMO. They can always ship unsold Leafs back to Japan where there is need for a car like that. In Japan it is easy to go long distance on a Bullet train. Japan is almost one big L-shaped city.
+4
May 26th, 2010 (7:00 am)It is odd how it seems like the Leaf is getting a big leg up thanks to the Volt, but the Volt got a big leg up from the Tesla. And now Tesla is in bed with Toyotal? ‘Round and round the mulberry bush.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (7:03 am)Shipping to the rest of the US at ‘the end of 2011′ is the 2012 model year. LEAF’s roll-out is worse than Volt’s if you look at what they are actually saying. If they wait for charging stations in any given area before they roll it out, it could take years before I see one.
I didn’t really expect to see a Volt at my dealer until the 2012 model year either. But, GM’s roll-out is for the entire US before that, right? He might get early 2011 allocation.
+4
May 26th, 2010 (7:07 am)Lyle….
Thank you for the continued updates
Had an opportunity to view the Center for Automotive Research web site and there appear to be many conferences scheduled in which GM will be represented.
http://www.cargroup.org/documents/fy09.pdf
http://www.cargroup.org/conferences.html
Other sources expand on your post and offered the following:
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100526/AUTO01/5260357/1148/rss25#ixzz0p2I16Z2S
“Asked whether his medium-term sales forecast might be over-optimistic, he said Renault had orders for more than 100,000 electric cars from customers in Denmark and Israel, where Renault has teamed up with Palo Alto, Calif.-based battery and services provider Better Place.
Half a million vehicles may seem like a lot, Ghosn said, but account for less than 1 percent of annual vehicle sales worldwide.
Polls in Europe show that up to 10 percent of respondents in some countries say they want electric cars, he said”.
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100526/AUTO01/5260357/1148/rss25#ixzz0p2I16Z2S
It appears Nissan/Renault are aggressively marketing their BEV vehicles across the globe hoping to get cost savings by volume across the global market quickly.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/video/article300101.ece?vxSiteId=6247211d-66e0-4454-b73a-3f1610efa39a&vxChannel=Latest&vxClipId=1347_SUN44172&vxBitrate=300
When will the Opel EREV go on sale in Europe and what are the projected units to be built for 2011/2012?
Go GM…. Go Nissan….
+1
May 26th, 2010 (7:12 am)The story I got from GM was that they would roll out to the rest of the country 6 months after the initial Volts came out at the end of 2010, to the initial three markets.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (7:12 am)I have a feeling that GM is holding back on Volt’s E-85 capability so that they can go E-100 (pure alcohol). With the way we are assuming it would work (starting with the generator instead of a 12v starter motor) any issues with hard starting would be mitigated.
Tuning for pure alcohol is a little more difficult, but, I’d love to see this solution.
Some are seeing the glass half-empty, some are seeing it half-full. I am seeing someone using the wrong sized glass.
+11
May 26th, 2010 (7:15 am)A lot of people point to the problems with corn ethanol, and then say all bio-fuels are bad. That’s like saying: “If I build a house out of mud, then it won’t last, so then all houses are bad. Let’s forget about houses.”
That kind of logic drives my crazy. Just as there are valid ways to build a house without mud, there are also valid ways of making bio-fuels without affecting food supply. And once these take off, then bio-fuel harvesting and transportation can be powered by bio-fuels as well, so no fossil fuels are required.
The United States imports around 2/3 of the oil we consume. Oil consumption breaks down roughly as follows:
• 44% gasoline (mostly for passenger vehicles)
• 17% diesel (mostly for heavy duty long distance travel)
• 5% jet fuel
• 15% fuel oil (home heating and industrial)
• 19% other (petro-chemical, plastics, fertilizer, etc.)
Looking at this list, it’s obvious to me that we will never be energy intendant using electric vehicles alone. You can’t power ships and planes on batteries. There’s also no technology in sight that would allow 18-wheel trucks to drive cross-country on electricity.
So if we truly want to address the problems of foreign oil and climate change, then we have to stop looking for that one “silver bullet” type solution, and start looking at a combination of solutions, including electric drive and bio-fuels.
-2
May 26th, 2010 (7:18 am)I stand corrected if Nissan truely isn’t considering an EREV. (maybe they don’t have the technical prowess to do one.) However we’ve heard the “no EREV” speech from other… ahem… CEO’s.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (7:23 am)That might explain the sealed tank. As most states require alcohol to carried in a sealed container.
I like the idea of being able to ferment your own fuel in the garage. I have heard you can make a solar still, but get a lower % alcohol.
+4
May 26th, 2010 (7:27 am)I’m really looking forward to how Nissan is going to eliminate range anxiety in the areas they sell the Leaf. That doesn’t seem possible without major help from local and national electric infrastructure upgrades funded by tax dollars. I don’t see that happening in the short term. But you know what, I hope I’m wrong! The quicker the EV landslide happens the better.
+10
May 26th, 2010 (7:27 am)Dave G said:
44% gasoline (mostly for passenger vehicles)
Make a big dent in that number, and you have done something worth writing home about.
May 26th, 2010 (7:30 am)Right.
And if an ICE was designed specifically to run on pure ethanol, then it would get similar MPG ratings to gasoline.
As I understand it, ethanol/alcohol requires a much higher compression ratio to be efficient, so you would need a turbo-charger, and a modified fuel injection system.
But right now I think an E85 Volt would be better. As I said in post #18, we have bigger fish to fry. Specifically, if all passenger vehicles were EREV, and all range extenders ran on E85, then only 1.3% of our oil consumption would be from passenger vehicles, while 22% would be from heavy duty transportation by air, land, and sea.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (7:43 am)I just love the smell of sugar cane in the morning. I wonder what algae produced bio-fuel exhaust would smell like?
+5
May 26th, 2010 (7:51 am)“We think there is a big future for this car,” said Ghosn. “I can already tell you that the production for 2010 is already sold out.”
As we know Nissan believes demand will continue to grow and plans to build a half million LEAFs per year starting in 2013.
————
In an unrelated story, towing company stocks are trading higher.
+3
May 26th, 2010 (7:51 am)I just hope the plugs for both vehicles use the same standards and are compatible. Having the infrastucture for EVs divided would be much worse than havng the EV market divided.
+4
May 26th, 2010 (7:53 am)I keep saying this is a non issue. I reserved a Leaf, but would switch to the Volt if I can get one without waiting much longer mostly because of Made in America. I can get by with 100 mile range.
But the point is there are enough early adopters to buy a 100 mile BEV. And in 3-4 years there will be a BEV-100 and a BEV-200 and charging stations will be spread out on the highways so people can make long trips.
EREV versus BEV is not an issue in my opinion as there is enough demand to buy out the next 4 years and by then hopefully there will be enough choices for people to buy whatever best fits ther needs. Remember the perfect combination for most families is one EREV and one BEV.
If somone has a 60-70 mile daily commute an EREV-40 DOESN’T CUT IT unless they can charge at work which is kinds of against the whole idea of charging at night. So a family with lets say a 30 mile commute and a 65 mile commute would be well served with an EREV-40 and a BEV-100.
Within 3 years if battery costs and power density improves like everyone projects, then there should be cars on the drawing board for 2014 to add
EREV-20
EREV-60
BEV-150
BEV-200
They keep talking about charging stations at shopping centers etc., they would be nice at work places, but really the idea should be to charge at night, so where charge stations are needed are at highway rest areas so people can take their BEV and charge their car wihle eating lunch or dinner.
+5
May 26th, 2010 (7:56 am)There is no ‘plug-in war’.
We must stop looking at the Serial Plug-In Hybrid (the Volt) & the Pure Battery Electric Vehicle (the LEAF) as being mutually exclusive, they’re not. They in fact compliment one another as they both fulfill what are right now niche markets.
And I’m not just talking range anxiety here either, there are people who would otherwise love to own and drive a pure BEV but their driving requirements can only be fulfilled by the Serial Plug-In Hybrid and for them there is the Volt.
Does’nt matter which of the 2 vehicles you end up buying as they both serve to help reduce/eliminate our dependence on liquid fuels, be they of foreign or domestic origin, and this is good
-1
May 26th, 2010 (7:57 am)Actually all this type of talk does is give GM more excuses for not building so many gasoline Volts the first year. We need tens of thousands of gasoline Volts right now, in order to get (give) good feedback on how everything works.
May 26th, 2010 (8:02 am)The 120/220 plug has been standardized, but I don’t know about Nissan’s “quick-charge” plug. Or even a 480V 3PH plug. Anyone?
+3
May 26th, 2010 (8:10 am)Until they make a BEV-250 driving the way I normally drive, in the Michigan winter with my heater on, i’m not a BEV customer. That’s just me. I’m a single car person. I don’t want to have to rent a car, or maintain & have insurance on a second ICE car.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (8:30 am)“We wanted to do a zero-emission vehicle,” Mr. Ghosn said. “I don’t want gasoline in the car, period.”
If I drive less than 100 miles on any trip to and from home this statement would work. ….. but many times I go farther.
Otherwise…
This statement he has made will be correct in about 10-15 years ……. if ….
the battery (or other electric storage technology reaches enough energy density) and there is an infrastructure in place to allow full recharging in about 10 minutes or LESS on long trips.
In the meantime the VOLT is the MUCH BETTER CHOICE. It works for me!
+1
May 26th, 2010 (8:42 am)This is a good read.
http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/earthobservationsSCC/J2847_Task_Force_Status_Rich_Scholer.pdf
SAE J2836™ – J2847 Task
Force Status
Also SAE J1772 is the plug standard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
+2
May 26th, 2010 (8:43 am)I think Ghosn is sincere when he says that Nissan isn’t interested in an EREV, at least not at this stage. The whole deal with Nissan appears to be massive production of a relatively simple EV. If he intends to push for infrastructure everywhere in the USA as a condition for his sales projections, I think he’s in for a shock (ba-dump-bump).
It is probably too early for any manufacturer to commit to more than one EV type (unless you count Toyo’s Prii with the Tesyota). Let Nissan go with BEVs and GM with EREVs for awhile, I think that will help keep things relatively straight-forward for the consumer.
It’s when a third and fourth automaker join the fray that things start to get interesting. I wonder if BEVs will be as popular with other carmakers with Nissan already selling half a million a year?
May 26th, 2010 (8:44 am)From the article
“We think there is a big future for this car,” said Ghosn. “I can already tell you that the production for 2010 is already sold out.”
Just wait for all the media reports of people having to walk because they ran out of charge.
Sales will plummet. I like the though of a pure EV. But let’s face it….Wizards first rule applies here —People are stupid. And these people will give EVs a bad name.
I applaud Nissan for taking this step. I just hope it doesn’t come back and bite them in the a$$.
-1
May 26th, 2010 (8:47 am)I’ve been pointing this out for a while, which of course makes it undeniably true! LOL (But it is true).
As far as I know the GM E85 vehicles will run on E100. CA state troopers are using this product which makes fuel from yeast waste from brewerys. When talking to someone I know there he said that any flex fuel vehicle would run on it just fine. http://www.microfueler.com/
May 26th, 2010 (8:55 am)Rather than focusing only on the difference between EREV and BEV, we should also recognize that the Volt will be a better vehicle, meaning faster, better handling, and so forth. Chelsea Sexton, who is probably one of the few people that seem to have driven both, more or less said this when asked by saying “they are different cars for different purposes.”
-3
May 26th, 2010 (8:56 am)The article states, “Instead Nissan plans to build out the supporting public charging infrastructure ahead of regional rollouts.”
Unfortunately, Nissan can’t build infrastructure in every smallish town in the U.S. to make the Leaf’s sales really take off. While Nissan is going to be concentrating on a handful of markets, GM is going to be able to sell to the same handful of markets, plus the remaining 99% of the U.S., Canada, and other countries without public charging stations.
And I hope that more often than not, there will be a Volt already using the public charging station where a Leaf driver desparately needs in order to be able to get home. Ha ha ha. First come, first served… and serves them right for buying the wrong car.
+4
May 26th, 2010 (8:56 am)I’m with you and not sure why GM is so pessimistic given the Volt has all the capabilities of any car you drive off the lot. Effectively unlimited range, super quiet, great MPG after ICE kicks in and 40 mile EV range. If the price is right the Volt will sell.
Nissan has risk because alot of their PR is in the hands of dirvers paying attention and not get stranded due to the 100 mile range. Nissan is counting on tens of thousands of people to pay attention DAILY to a range that is 1/4 of what most of us are used to driving.
Imagine you drive your LEAF to work, to lunch and then your kids ball game and you have 20 miles of range left. While at the game something unexpected comes up and you have to go the hospital, accross town to pick something up or whatever and you say…”Well I can’t because I’ve only got 20 miles of range”. Over THOUSANDS of drivers these situations will occur ALOT. I see significant risk for the LEAF and Nissan. I think they should be cautious and GM Optimistic…!!!
I stand by my philosophy that cars are an extention of American’s Desire for Freedom and Independence. Your freedom on any given day just got cut to less then 100 miles with a LEAF.
Go Volt
+1
May 26th, 2010 (8:57 am)To Be mass manufactured as soon 2016 with widely available fuels in 2025?
EV’s and even fuel cells using something other than hydrogen, advanced ICE’s plus good old bio diesel engines will all be moving targets during this time period. Though each person harps on their dream solution from today’s perspective, new technological results will change the perspective over time.
All the technologies are moving forward and time will tell which is the best positioned, then maybe reshuffle the deck a few more times just for good measure.
+3
May 26th, 2010 (9:06 am)Maybe combined with the fact that I’m getting older and I never was that sharp to begin with, but I don’t ever remember this happening to me. Though at this point I’d prefer a Volt, if there were a Leaf in my garage also, and I took it on a day like that, even though I’m not the sharpest by far, I could figure something out that works for me. Can any one else think of ways to handle this, just raise your hands?
+1
May 26th, 2010 (9:06 am)Thanks DonC:
http://www.microfueler.com
Imagine, putting your garbage in a neighborhood microfueler. I wonder if I could get a break on my property taxes?
+2
May 26th, 2010 (9:09 am)I don’t know about this. I haven’t heard about any mini-E drivers having this problem. Nor any Tesla drivers for that matter.
But that doesn’t mean they don’t end up on the side of the road. Lyle has said he’s been towed three or even four times — all because of electronic controller problems. And Tesla drivers have had to pull off the road for overheating problems. People generally don’t run out of gas unless the gauge is broken or something, and my guess is that the BEV experience will be the same, meaning that problems unrelated to range will be the reason BEV drivers end up needing a tow truck.
But this doesn’t mean of course that a BEV is right for you. As a single person with one car, and living where winters are cold, I’d say the Leaf would be a very bad choice unless you wanted to keep your existing car, which isn’t exactly the path you probably want to go down. This is why an EREV is such a beautiful design. It’s the application of the 80-20 rule. For 20% of the battery — and the cost of that battery — you get 80% of the benefit.
+5
May 26th, 2010 (9:11 am)I don’t think it’s the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about — But it may be a zebra —- So far, many here don’t want to admit the 4 seats of Volt make it nearly as limited as the Leaf, just in a different way.
I’m still onboard as a large fan of the EREV Volt’s approach. But with two kids I know that extra one seating position limits the useability of my future Volt quite a bit. I’ll agree, 80% of trips in our current Prius need only the maximum of four seating position for my family ( two kids, wife ). It’s those other trips where that fifth patch of seating real estate have made the car a viable option for our family car. We don’t ferry soccer teams to-and-fro and admittedly the Prius’ narrow backseat is the minimum a family car owner would want ( that third passenger in back better be pretty slender hip-wise ). Convincing my wife to buy a Prius over a minivan or SUV was pretty tough, nonetheless – and I have to say she was right in that, without that extra one seat – it would cramp our lifestyle options quite a bit ( no friends along, or taking Mom to dinner, picking up someone from the airport, etc ).
As I’ve said before, the 4 seat capacity of Volt will hurt sales, there is no doubt. It relegates the car to a sporty-looking electric option “4 door coupe” for singles or retirees, or a third or fourth car for families with more than 1 offspring.
This, of course, leaves huge gaps in Volt’s market. So even if you A) have the money, B) Don’t mind buying 1st gen unproven technology C) Are a big proponent of getting off oil D) Will justify the price for Volt as a necessity to get them on the road… We still have to fit a rather narrow sports coupe type demo to want one, and/or pay the added insurance and payments – have the extra driveway or garage space for an additional vehicle to your family hauler. Just like Leaf.
In that way, I don’t understand those here who proclaim Volt could be a runaway success – it’s just not a Camry-Accord-Fusion-esque type ride. Many Americans and Canadians who can afford a $30,000 family car will not be able to justify a 4 seat Volt – period. It’s why the MPV5 really looks appealing. MPV5 is built upon the Cruze platform also and is accepting of the Volt T-shaped battery without making major mods to the pack to realize 5 passenger ability. My preference would be a lower-slung sedan like Volt only with a Camry-sized backseat, but I would take MPV5 with it’s 10 less AER miles as it could be the one-and-only family car.
If I get a chance to drive Volt on the GM proving grounds ( I entered the Wired Magazine contest – video on YouTube ) I’ll give you my impressions of how my long legs fit in Volt’s backseat, which looks in photos to be a scosche smaller than Prius’.
As of today, my wife ( bless her heart! ) is on board with a Volt purchase. At the same time, if GM doesn’t get moving, a 2nd gen Leaf with 200 mile range and seating for 5 just makes more sense.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
+2
May 26th, 2010 (9:15 am)Highway information sign:
Bridge out ahead. Please follow detour signs. Electric vehicles with less than 25 additional miles, please go to Walmart parking lot at exit 18. Truck mounted generator is on the way. Operator accepts cash only.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (9:16 am)You can do it with 12:1 compression ration without a turbo. (A normal gasoline engine runs around 9:1 or 9.5:1) However, that would limit your choices of fuel since gasoline would pre-detonate at that ratio. The fuel injection system only needs to handle a slightly larger volume to maintain the same power as gasoline. This can be accomplished by merely leaving the injector open for a fraction of a second longer. Or, accept a lower power output.
For a generator, you don’t need a wide power curve, so, alcohol could be used quite handily in this application.
Alcohol just doesn’t have the energy density of gasoline. It does have the advantage of being domestically produced which is the primary concern I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Energy_density.svg
+1
May 26th, 2010 (9:19 am)Interesting perspective. I’m hoping the Volt and it’s lower priced derivatives, and something with the utility of a pick-up reach into every nook and cranny —- universally. Though I see that most of the populations of the highest gasoline using countries are urban and would find a low cost BEV to be immensely useful.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (9:19 am)Nearly 80% of the electricity in France is nuclear. Create an EV infrastructure to replace petroleum? No problem, they don’t need more coal, natural gas, or petroleum to do it.
We do!
What’s the plan otherwise?
How quickly will the EV supplant the ICE?
How quickly will petroleum demand be reduced to domestic production only?
How low will petroleum demand be when our newborn kids can buy a car?
Which revolution in the US will be more important, EREV transportation, EV infrastructure, or power plant reconstruction?
…
+2
May 26th, 2010 (9:25 am)If Nissan is right, it will be easy for GM to make a BEV VOLT by removing ICE Gen. If Nissan is wrong and decide to make an EREV, then they are 3 or 4 years behind.
If Nissan builds a 100 m-range “Z”, that would be a very tempting little car!
+6
May 26th, 2010 (9:28 am)Given the size of these cars I’m not sure that 5th seat means that much since it’s not that much of a seat. But the basic point of limited seating is valid. In this regard, Toyota seems to agree with you. Have you seen that Toyota is coming out with a MPV Prius in 2011?
Though personally I have no interest, the MPV design is the one vehicle that GM should be looking at, even for NA.
May 26th, 2010 (9:32 am)The power density of the battery cells may have doomed the Converj, and it more or less rules out an electric “Z”. Going 0-60 MPH in ten or eleven seconds would seem to be a buzzkill.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (9:37 am)The range is only limited if there is no infrastructure to charge while not at home. If the number of cars justify it, a charging infrastructure will develop rapidly, as a gasoline stations infrastructure developed back at the beginning of ICE cars.
I think this is Nissan’s bet.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (9:38 am)Dollar-a-gallon ethanol plant in U.S. operation next year
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9928810-54.html
+5
May 26th, 2010 (9:44 am)Do you not know how many 2 car families there are in the world!!! 100s of millions! I think this is a fantastic 2nd car for everyone – and maybe a fantastic first car for anybody that commutes a less than roundtrip 60 miles – and lives in a country with good public transport for long distance journeys. That’s hardly going to limit car numbers is it!!
+3
May 26th, 2010 (9:46 am)I love hypothetical situations. They always amuse.
You would have had to drive ~60miles to be at this point (20 miles left with 20 miles reserve). If this emergency situation comes up (and I don’t think it would be ‘A LOT’), there is always taxi service.
You probably shouldn’t be driving if you’re upset about some hospital thing anyway. If your life is this haphazard, maybe a BEV is not for you.
My daily driving is very tame and predictable apparently. I can’t foresee when such a situation would come up. If my reserve is less than 1/4 the range all the time, then, I made a bad choice of cars in the first place.
+5
May 26th, 2010 (9:52 am)Any way it is win win for every one.
At first stage some gas and then no gas
GM or Nissan I don’t care. But I like Volt better.
May 26th, 2010 (9:52 am)That’s good news. Hope it works as projected and spreads. Hope Volts get the ability to use it, and gasoline is no longer used to make and distribute it. Hope it and Volts become widespread before 2025. Hope the process is designed to use less energy inputs and that it is more sustainable than use of gasoline. Here’s to hoping.
May 26th, 2010 (9:54 am)Yes – they both use the same standard J??? connector. The Leaf actually has a 2nd type (not quite) standard yet one that does 440v – 3phase (charges 80% in 26minutes = 80 mile range). The satnav will (according to the youtube videos of the car-screen) will show these on the map, their type, and the number of in-use/available charge points at each location. Pretty clever imho.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (10:00 am)I don’t know about that… I had a chance to test drive the EV-1 back when it was available at a nearby Saturn dealership. That car accelerated PDQ (pretty dang quick). I don’t recall the official 0-60 time, but with 100% torque available from a standing start, I think any BEV is going to be quick off the line, unless it is somehow limited for range purposes. What’s the 0-60 on a Tesla?
+4
May 26th, 2010 (10:02 am)Like many of you, I would still prefer to have a Volt. That being said, I really applaud Nissan and Ghosn’s efforts to develop a car that doesn’t use gas. I’m a loyal GM and Ford car owner, but for the greater good, the less gas used, the better, regardless of who makes the cars.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (10:03 am)Today GM could give me a nice big birthday present by finally stating what the Volt’s MSRP is to be. How much longer need we patiently wait for this information?
+2
May 26th, 2010 (10:04 am)0-60 in 11 seconds is pretty pathetic. Doing a quarter mile in 11 seconds is huge.
That guy with the Datsun 200 filled with A123 batteries is blowing away Corvettes at the drag strip.
I think his car is named ‘white lightening’.
That’s the beauty of electric drive. The torque curve is flat. You have full torque at all RPMs.
Power density and power output are not the same thing.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (10:10 am)>> Dave Cole:
>> Stay tuned.
Arrrgh! This phrase should be perma-banned.
>> This story will be played out over the next 10 years.
TEN YEARS…!! Double Arrrrghh! Just three-point-five years of Volt gestation drama has pretty much worn me out. Ten years of “Electric Car Philosophy Wars” will probably put me in the ground.
Go Volt, Go GM, FLOOR IT!! [as recently coined here on GM-Volt.com]
+1
May 26th, 2010 (10:14 am)Happy Birthday to Rob,
Happy Birthday to Rob;
Happy Birthday to Ro-ob,
Happy Birthday to Rob!
5 to 6 months at maximum.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (10:14 am)Ya, and the first Volts can use it.
+8
May 26th, 2010 (10:15 am)NO GAS!!! GASOLINE IS UNACCEPTABLE!!! Oh, except for all those other cars made by Nissan. In those, it’s ok….
May 26th, 2010 (10:23 am)“We wanted to do a zero-emission vehicle,” Mr. Ghosn said. “I don’t want gasoline in the car, period.”
What else can he possibly say? Nissan has nothing else to offer but a pure EV car. Nissan will downplay to the max the range limitations to sell the LEAF.
In the end I think it is a mistake for Nissan to create expectations that they cannot possibly meet with their product.
+4
May 26th, 2010 (10:24 am)When it comes to universal electrification of automobiles in a country this large, we have two problems:
1) How do we get there from where we are today?
2) How do we build a “there” to get to?
The answer to question 1 is the Volt and cars like it. You can use electricity where it is currently available, or you can use gasoline where it isn’t.
The answer to question 2 is the LEAF and cars like it. You use them as a way to gradually promote and install infrastructure until it reaches a point (many years from now, certainly much longer than Ghosn and Nissan are counting on) where the internal combustion engine is no longer necessary for most driving.
I would submit that GM and Nissan are working toward the same goal from opposite ends.
(… and there is actually a third problem; updating the grid and building clean power which both EV approaches may impinge upon and assist, but this is actually mostly in the hands of other industries).
May 26th, 2010 (10:26 am)This was the point I was making yesterday about how different batteries can have different characteristics. The chemistry of the A123 batteries is quite different than that used in the Volt or Leaf battery packs. I’ve wondered about GM’s decision to go with LG Chem. The cells are no doubt cheaper, but you’d get much higher power density with the A123 cells and you wouldn’t need so many of them since the A123 chemistry tolerates more discharge cycles.
The chemistry of the LG Chem cells is why Cal-Cars gave the Volt a C+ on power density. If anything the Leaf cells are a tad worse, though I suspect the acceleration differences between the Volt and the Leaf has more to do with engineering than cell chemistry.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (10:32 am)I’m actually suprised they did the T shaped battery and not the cleverer battery shape of the Leaf. The leaf battery fits under the front seats, rear seats, and a thin section below the rear seat floor. Thus it still seats 5… and the battery has a longer range than the Volt (and probably is heavier and larger in volume). Ok there is no battery management. But then the battery being at cabin temperature in the leaf is also the perfect comfort level of a battery – about 20-25 degrees. 30+ is too warm, 10 or below affects range. If you preheat the cabin you pre-warm / cool the battery before use too! Quite clever imho.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (10:32 am)What’s not to like about liquid fuels? Air pollution. It is not the CO2 in the exhaust of biofuels that is the problem, its the stuff that causes cancer, heart disease, asthma, and a host of environmental problems like smog.
Will we ever be energy independent using electric vehicles alone. No we must shift away from many other uses of liquid fuels where a viable alternative exists. Why use home heating oil. Why not replace that with balanced power homes, natural gas and electric. That would cut liquid fuel usage by about 15%. How about big trucks? Delivery trucks from regional disbursement centers to retail outlets could be hybrids like they use at LB/LA harbor. Electric rail could ship contains that are then placed of delivery trucks. The added benefit would be less truck traffic on interstates. These two actions plus EV’s would go a long way toward energy independence.
May 26th, 2010 (10:33 am)Guess this explains why our American parking lots look the way they do. “I want my car to be capable of responding to any and every possible scenario”.
http://www.foundshit.com/pictures/cars/compact-suvs.jpg
+2
May 26th, 2010 (10:35 am)Lyle: First off, VOLT buyers are no less green than LEAF ‘early adopters’. VOLT buyers need a vehicle that is no less in size, comfort and reliability than the ICE left in the garage. In 2014, when ‘pure’ EV’s routinely are getting 300 mile range, there’s going to be a whole lot of LEAFS on the used car lot. Where the number of used VOLT EV’s will be scarce. And best of all, the battery still under warranty. Accordingly, LEAF and VOLT are two entirely different species.
Proof: Northern California (Today): Carry chains on I-80. VOLT with ‘mountain mode’ makes SF-Reno handily. LEAF barely makes it to Sacramento. Needs an overnight charge just to get back to SF. No way can LEAF make Sacramento to Reno non-stop under any conditions. I’ll bet LEAF barely makes if at all Colfax. (55 miles-2400 ft. el.)
+6
May 26th, 2010 (10:37 am)Er, I guarantee that slow detours off of highways will extend range, not decrease it, for gas as well as electric. Also, every single Walmart on the planet already has electrical outlets, so no truck/generator needed, except to tow away the gas only vehicles that ran out of fuel. No guarantee how far the closest gas station is.
I went 76 miles the other day with my 40 mile range EV and arrived at my final destination with a 75% SOC, QED, a pretty common experience for me. My refueling time was exactly 0 minutes over the course of the day as I was busy doing other things than traveling or standing at a smelly, ugly refueling only station with my thumb up my a@@ and my vehicle topped itself off on its own time, as it always does. It’s like going from riding a horse to a train. It’s different, but that does NOT mean deficient.
When in doubt, take the scenic route, stop at a cafe, resort or park on the way and chat with folks for a bit or get some wi-fi work done, do some shopping or run an errand. Just pop in your plug while you aren’t using your vehicle. You’ll come away having gotten more done, more relaxed, better connected with your community and have a topped off vehicle to boot. Any politician that doesn’t use an EV to campaign in the field is missing out big time. So is any retail establishment or government entity that doesn’t offer free parking with charging included – they don’t ever get any of my business.
This is not meant as a criticism of ER-EVs. It just points out that bashing EVs is a completely counterproductive way to support ER-EVs, as EVs and ER-EVs are imperfect complements, not perfect substitutes. Indeed, EVs can be considered just a special case of ER-EVs, where ER=0, just the thing for some, but not all, folks. For example, the Volt is ER-260-EV-40 and the Leaf is ER-0-EV-100. Different strokes for different folks, which explains why we have way more than one type/class/make/model/manufacturer for personal vehicles.
The only real mystery left is why any manufacturer is still making any full gassers and how fast low cost stop/start plug in hybrids become the most common vehicle configuration in the short term.
Last, in rebuttal of any quibbles, cheaper, faster charging, lighter power packs, more configurations and renewables will only make falling off the log easier.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (10:38 am)Let’s please not forget that the LEAF will (initially) be made in Japan. Buy one – and your dollars get shipped overseas and are lost forever.
The Chevy Volt, on the other hand, will be made in America, by American taxpayers. They will spend the money on houses here in Michigan, and on twinkies at the local 7-Eleven. The money stays here and benefits lots of taxpaying people.
PLEASE, we are committing national suicide by buying things that are not made in America. Lot’s of folks are unemployed and hurting badly. Keep our dollars here!
And may the Great State of Michigan once again become the world’s automobile manufacturing center!
+1
May 26th, 2010 (10:40 am)Thanks for the comedy, Mr. Ghosn. You are excellent at making lemonade out of lemons, and trying to turn the Volt’s strength into a perceived weakness. You have a future in politics! An EREV will use almost no gas under most circumstances, yet increase driver flexibility several-fold.
To make matters ever more favorable to EREV technology, once cellulosic ethanol production achieves commercial scale (1-2 years), and cellulosic E85 is available everywhere, the use of a flex fuel EREV will result in less yearly gas use than the average lawn mower.
All of which raises the question: Will GM be smart enough to offer FlexFuel in Volt Gen II, right around the time when cellulosic will be taking off? I think so, seeing as how GM is the main underwriter of one of the most promising cellulosic technologies out there. I understand FlexFuel not being offered in Gen I, since corn ethanol is essentially a boondoggle that uses a ton of petroleum to produce.
May 26th, 2010 (10:42 am)ZT said”
When it comes to universal electrification of automobiles in a country this large, we have two problems:
1) How do we get there from where we are today?
2) How do we build a “there” to get to?
The answer to question 1 is the Volt and cars like it.
The answer to question 2 is the LEAF and cars like it.
Does this mean Leaf buyers will be “National Heros?
+1
May 26th, 2010 (10:43 am)Let’s please not forget that the LEAF will (initially) be made in Japan. Buy one – and your dollars get shipped overseas and are lost forever.
The Chevy Volt, on the other hand, will be made in America, by American taxpayers. They will spend the money on houses here in Michigan, and on twinkies at the local 7-Eleven. The money stays here and benefits lots of taxpaying people.
PLEASE, we are committing national suicide by buying things that are not made in America. Lots of folks are unemployed and hurting badly. Keep our dollars here!
And may the Great State of Michigan once again become the world’s automobile manufacturing center!
May 26th, 2010 (10:48 am)ZT said”
When it comes to universal electrification of automobiles in a country this large, we have two problems:
1) How do we get there from where we are today?
2) How do we build a “there” to get to?
The answer to question 1 is the Volt and cars like it.
The answer to question 2 is the LEAF and cars like it.
Does this mean Leaf buyers will be “National Heros”?
May 26th, 2010 (10:52 am)Why is everyone going gaga over a car (LEAF) that is basically a warmed over EV-1 in terms of driving distance capabilities? Congratulations Nissan, you’ve caught up to GM…. in 1990. And the fact remains that even if the average driver can find a place to recharge in public, who has time on their hands for a 30-minute recharge on the way home from the grocery store (and that is a rapid-charge best-case scenario)? The average American wants the flexibility currently available only in an EREV. Spin away, Mr. Ghosn, spin away….
May 26th, 2010 (10:54 am)Only to those who own a towing service….
+6
May 26th, 2010 (11:02 am)1. Low price
2. Commitment to make 500,000 per year
Compare that to GM on the Volt, whose announcements on these two critical issues are:
1. Stay tuned
2. Hem, haw, well if demand is there we’ll build more
Just sayin.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (11:02 am)#27
I have to agree. +1
+1
May 26th, 2010 (11:02 am)I’d always thought that the reason we went for E-85 rather than E-100 was because TPTB didn’t want people drinking it…
May 26th, 2010 (11:09 am)You don’t need an account to post the picture yourself. There are free hosting services such as tinypic.com (which I use), photobucket and others.
Have a browser open to the Leave a Reply screen on this blog.
Go to http://www.tinypic.com in a separate browser session or tab. Next to “file” use the browse button to select the picture from your hard drive (don’t worry about “tags,” I never use them and the service works fine).
Click “Upload Now.” (You will now be prompted to do the thing where you look at some barely-readable text and type it into a box. This is new. Click “Upload Now” again, on the dialogue box).
Within moments, you will see several strings of text in different fields. You want the one labeled “IMG Code for Forums & Message Boards.” It will look something like this:
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2u7y6g6.jpg[/IMG]
Click in the field (so that the string highlights). Click CTRL + C (“C” and “Ctrl” keys at the same time). Switch to your tab or browser session containing the “Leave a Reply” box here. Put the cursor into the comment box and click CTRL + V (“V” and “Ctrl” keys at the same time).
You will note that when I pasted the link at the top that it didn’t turn into a picture! This is because this site will only accept an IMG tag if it is expressed in lower case. Change IMG to img (at the beginning and the end), and you get:
If you will be using the picture in more than one thread, keep a wordpad document where you insert (CTRL +V) the string, along with the filename you uploaded. Then, whenever you want to use the pic again, you can just open the Wordpad doc to copy (CTRL +C) from.
Sorry to be late. I’ll re-post this in today’s thread (and here it is).
BTW (and pertinent for today), anyone notice the ad pictured above? I got it from this site! Looks like Nissan is definitely going after the Prius demographic.
May 26th, 2010 (11:15 am)Didn’t Lyle run out or go extremely low one time and had to find a friend’s place to plug in for a few hours? I know Bob Lutz said he ran out of juice a few times on his electric motorcycle. I think a lot of people run out of gas, and call a buddy to bring 5 gallons or call AAA or just walk to a station. But you’re out of luck if your BEV runs out. Get ready for a $100 towing bill.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (11:20 am)Yes, in Japan.
When we talk about reaching the point where an ICE is no longer necessary for most driving, we are talking decades; plenty of time for many players and approaches which would benefit from the infrastructure being installed. Long before universal auto electrification is reached, there will almost certainly be Ford and GM BEVs. In a way it’s a shame that a Japanese company will be first, but this also means that they are on the “bleeding edge,” taking a large portion of the risk so that cash-strapped US makes don’t have to.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (11:24 am)Sanyo EV Travels 624 Miles on One Charge (reported 5/25/10)
An electric vehicle powered by lithium-ion batteries broke its own world record for the longest EV trip without recharging when it completed a 623.76 mile run. The car, a Daihatsu Mira EV, was converted from gas to electric by the Japan EV Club. The car was powered by 8,320 Sanyo 18650 batteries (similar to those used by Tesla).
Even with a range of 624 miles, a pure electric car has severe limitations imposed by the fact that fully recharging its battery will require MUCH longer than recharging an EREV’s much smaller battery. And the Volt’s much smaller/much-faster-charging battery will meet the needs of most Americans for 78% of their daily travels at only a fraction of the cost of long-range BEVs. Any way you slice it, an EREV drive train is much more practicable —and it will continue to be so for many years to come!
IOW, the Leaf (like the EV-1) will appeal primarily to a niche market, whereas the Volt should have extremely broad market appeal, if its MSRP is within reach of that wide market.
Ref: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/05/sanyo-ev-travels-624-miles-on-a-single-charge/#ixzz0p3HlubDN
+4
May 26th, 2010 (11:33 am)#75
Amen. +1
+3
May 26th, 2010 (11:34 am)You can cook a good meal but to serve it beautifully is a different story.
Personally, GM cooks a very very good meal: it is the Volt but they don’t know how to set up the table, no silverware, no utensils (no ads, no pre-order, low volume, high price…)
By contrast, Nissan cooks an OK meal ( Leaf ) but they value their customers, they know how to serve the meal ( good ads, take preoder, high volume, low price, building charging stations, GPS to track them…)
When people go to a restaurant, although the food is just OK, but they serve warmly and friendly, peeple will come back to the restaurant.
My 2 cents
May 26th, 2010 (11:35 am)#77
They will be IMHO, even if we are the only ones who realize it. +1
+1
May 26th, 2010 (11:44 am)I hope that Nissan succeeds, and I have a lot of respect for Carlos Ghosn. That said, a $99 refundable deposit is not a “sale”. I hope that the demand is so overwhelming that they do instantly sell out their first year’s production when actual sales are possible. They haven’t done it yet.
May 26th, 2010 (11:46 am)I find much of what you say excellent but here I beg to differ.
There is almost nothing to like.
Quote Wiki:
“..carbon emissions levels, sustainable biofuel production, deforestation and soil erosion, impact on water resources, human rights issues, poverty reduction potential, biofuel prices…”
or read this:
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_46/.
There is possibly a slightly reduced CO2 output (because the CO2 intensive farming methods produce much CO2 ) but there is not a monetary saving because as the biofuels have a lower energy content there is less mpg and certainly pay the same as gasoline.
Have we enough land and water to spare for such escapades? If the EREV lasts a maximum of ten years before BEV range problem has been solved what is the point of heavy investment in biofuels for only a decade.
Biofuels are one of the red herrings propogated by the oil industry. Do we want to muddy our argument by proposing such an irritating side track.
So let us keep it simple
–electric drive
–extended range generator (if necessary)
–every car must have a cord.
May 26th, 2010 (11:47 am)#91
Sorry, i got a little ahead of myself. I read “Volt” where you really said “Leaf”. Volt buyers will be national heros for sure. Leaf buyers, maybe not so much. LOL.
+3
May 26th, 2010 (11:51 am)That is a two year old story. So, that would make it wrong to say “next year” now in 2010. More promises that seem to always fall short. Not an unusual situation.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (11:58 am)…and the price?
+1
May 26th, 2010 (11:58 am)…big batteries are expensive, adding $15,000 to $20,000 to equal the performance of a sporty Cadillac or Nissan won’t help sales.
May 26th, 2010 (11:59 am)Hi NASAMAN @ 88, interesting article.
If I ball-parked it correctly the vehicle packed about 77 kwh, and assuming the run used 70 of them, the mileage at 30 MPH was 9 miles per kwh. Now that is amazing. The Volt claims 5 miles per kwh (40 miles using 8 kwh) and the Leaf seems to claim 100 miles using 20 kwh. I have steadfastly maintained EVs will get between 3.4 and 4.2 miles per kwh, so a real world expectation of the Volt AER is 30 miles. It appears I may have blown it big time. Can’t wait until someone is allowed to independently evaluate Volt performance to actually determine real world AER and charge sustaining mode fuel consumption. And the size of the fuel tank.
May 26th, 2010 (12:02 pm)Base: 0 to 60 mph in 3.9 seconds
Sport: 0 to 60 mph in 3.7 seconds
http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/perf_specs.php
-2
May 26th, 2010 (12:03 pm)Well, HAPPY BIRTHDAY, but don’t expect to hear from GM. I am not sure why GM is playing this little “coy” game. They need to come clean and get to work producing more than 8,000 cars for the 2011 model year. But, history tells us that GM will screw up the best game in town. Have they changed that much to not do it? Anybody’s guess.
May 26th, 2010 (12:04 pm)No guts, no glory
+2
May 26th, 2010 (12:06 pm)Why is this site so darn slow. Can’t be because of the number of users on line at one time. It is not that many people on line at once. Poor server performance or the site is being regulated to slower servers because to the traffic volume is low.
What’s up, Lyle?
May 26th, 2010 (12:11 pm)$101,500 base for the Roadster
$121,000 base for the Sport
http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/buyshowroom.php
It won’t be long before these guys have some competition.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (12:17 pm)“The LEAF will launch in Washington, Oregon, California, Tennessee and Arizona in December.”
Is Nissan intentionally not launching in any cold-weather markets?
+1
May 26th, 2010 (12:19 pm)#95
Got that right. +1
+1
May 26th, 2010 (12:25 pm)If you have a 100 mile drive to the grocery store then perhaps the Leaf isn’t the car for you. Personally I’m willing to bet the vast majority of Americans live less than 50 miles from their local grocery store
+2
May 26th, 2010 (12:25 pm)Both Tesla and GM have already delivered more battery-electric cars in the US than Leaf’s first run will be.
Tesla ~ 1100
EV1 ~ 1000
LEAF ~ 500 (estimated)
GM will have built 500 or more Volt prototypes by the time they start full production in the fall.
I don’t consider LEAF to be ‘first’ yet. First will be the one I can see and drive at a local dealer.
May 26th, 2010 (12:26 pm)Really! Actually, it was horrible earlier, but it seems a bit better now. Or maybe I just “got my mind right”. For awhile this AM, I couldn’t get Firefox to work at all, and went back to the dreaded IE. Now it seems OK. As Capt Jack would say, WTF?
I wonder if it’s the Coda ads, LOL?
May 26th, 2010 (12:28 pm)I would like to live by his words “No gas, period” but unfortunately it will take a few more years before BEV’s can achieve the range necessary to completely eliminate the need for a range extender like the Volt. I’m living now 95% gasoline free as I drive a MINI-E like Lyle does and I use it for 95% of all my driving with. I’m finding a 100 mile BEV suits just about all my needs. In a perfect world I’ll have both an EREV Volt and a BEV Volt and use the BEV Volt for just about all my driving, let my wife (Who rarely drives 40 miles in a day) use the EREV Volt and drive it on the rare long trip. After a year driving an all electric car, I’m through with gasoline, period.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (12:32 pm)#104
Well FWIW, the lows in the continental US have been in CA the last few nights. Bodie State Park was +7 Monday night, lowest in the nation. Truckee and Bridgeport had the national low earlier in the week. Sunny CA, LOL. Spring in the Sierras can come pretty late. And I think it gets pretty chilly in WA, no? Any WA residents out there? I was born in Bellingham, and I seem to remember snow there.
+3
May 26th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Oh yeah, and this:
the EV1 could accelerate from 0–50 mph (0–80 km/h) in 6.3 seconds, and from 0–60 mph (0–97 km/h) in eight seconds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
My ’70 ‘Vette (454 V-8) could get to 60 in about 6 seconds with a 13+ something second ET for the quarter mile.
Electric cars will change everything!
May 26th, 2010 (12:43 pm)But you have to go where the “sales” are don’t you? Sometimes that takes three different stores!
May 26th, 2010 (12:52 pm)#102
In all fairness, I’m having trouble with other sites today too, particularly Ebay, which is usually pretty quick. So maybe there’s a bigger problem out there.
May 26th, 2010 (12:54 pm)#112
Yeah, right. And burn up more in gas than you save at the “sales”, LOL.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (1:05 pm)@ Jim in PA and ECO_Turbo. Falling off a log really is easier than you make it sound.
Just top off at each store while you shop and you end your shopping with more range than you started with an effective recharge time of 0 minutes. The store doesn’t offer a free top off while you shop? Then just shop at a store that does. Want to be greener, too, with no extra consumer effort? Shop at businesses that use solar and/or wind. QED. I already do all that all the time and the businesses that are staying in business are responsive to my desires. It’s not rocket science, it’s simple demand and supply and businesses responding to reality changing. More than 50% of businesses I have interacted with have been very supportive of my vehicle without batting an eye, in order to get and keep my business.
Relatedly, on line shopping and more efficient and convenient home delivery continues to increase in volume and popularity.
May 26th, 2010 (1:14 pm)I’m pretty certain that during the Bob Lutz interview Lyle said he had never run out of juice. I know once with his mini-E he was worried about it when his office charger went down, and I know he had a problem when he test drove the Tesla, but I don’t think he actually ran out of battery power either time. My guess is that this would be expected. The range limit would probably be more of an inconvenience than a reason for getting stuck by the side of the road. You’d learn the car’s limit and just adapt, unless you’re Bob Lutz and you push the envelope knowing you can call and get hauled home by the gardener.
Lead acid batteries have some nice characteristics. There’s a video on YouTube of a Tango with lead acid batteries beating a Tesla.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (1:31 pm)http://www.internethealthreport.com/Main.aspx?Period=RH24
Not too bad unless you are in southern California.
May 26th, 2010 (1:33 pm)A black LEAF for Statik:
from here:
http://www.easyecar.com/electric-vehicle-test/nissan-leaf-first-drive/
looks very nice!.. I cant stand that stupid blue color.
May 26th, 2010 (1:41 pm)OT.
I still haven’t gotten an answer:
Are there any youtube videos, or anywhere else, showing a production LEAF driving experience? All I can find are Versa-mules.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (1:54 pm)““We will make sure that in the markets in which we put the car, the consumer has the basic infrastructure to be able to drive the car with peace of mind and not have to worry.”
How, exactly, will that work with a Leaf owner living in a Nissan-approved metro area driving cross-country (or into Canada and/or Mexico)? There’s that old saying about the perfect being the enemy of the good. I’d rather have a single car such as the Volt than can tackle the daily commuting grind electrically and also be able to load it up and head out on a 1,000 mile road trip or vacation, even if it means that I need to use the filling stations on those relatively rare long-distance trips.
I guess we’ll see which scenario wins out when the public can finally vote with their wallets and purses.
May 26th, 2010 (1:55 pm)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjPU-2ZImts&feature=player_embedded
May 26th, 2010 (1:56 pm)If this can be done and there’s any left over for the rest of us, then color me interested. Otherwise I’m skeptical.
There’s a reason why all the successful ethanol schemes have had goverment subsidies — because they need them. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean that it makes sense economically. I believe it’s possible for example to create synthetic diamonds, but if they cost more than it costs to dig them out of the ground then what’s the point.
Personally, I’d rather just see direct solar generation capabilities developed, at least you’re not using up a large percentage of what you create here. Flying over the desert southwest, you see there’s lots of land sitting there which could be put to use.
-1
May 26th, 2010 (2:03 pm)You’ve responded to the end of a chain of comments. Read the beginning of it:
Volt =/= LEAF (and that’s a good thing). You cannot lump these two together because the Volt is not a BEV (though in a way, Volts will help and be helped by infrastructure improvements; but strictly speaking, they won’t have to get them). Only a BEV has the over-arching priority of establishing a recharging infrastructure, and so is more likely to be instrumental in obtaining one.
As for the EV1s, they were all hand built (as were the Mini-Es, and the Volt prototypes), so they don’t count either. If you want to talk about production battery-only electrics, I think you may have to go back to the Baker:
-1
May 26th, 2010 (2:07 pm)If that’s the case, how come Nissan can outright lie and think it’s okay? If it were GM or Ford that lied to that extent, they would catch all kind of flak from the media. It is to show the media thinks Japanese auto makers can do no wrong.
May 26th, 2010 (2:12 pm)Like I’ve said before, with GM’s flex assembly line, they can gear up the assembly of more Volts in short order. No problem!!
May 26th, 2010 (2:16 pm)Everyone of you posters should watch the live feed of the attempt to cap the horrible oil leak in the gulf! It’s time all of us unite in voicing the fact that an incremental and slow adaption of the electrification of the auto has been to slow, now we see the results of lackluster political response…any argument and hampering of this change is unacceptable. This is not a stupid game anymore!
May 26th, 2010 (2:21 pm)#117
I am in SoCal actually, so maybe that explains it. Although the link just sent me to “The page cannot be displayed”, whence I finally had to shut down Firefox and start over, LOL. Probably part of the same problem, I suppose. +1 for your help anyway.
-1
May 26th, 2010 (2:23 pm)That does say something. It says the Leaf will be a very limited car in every sense of the word. It will not be much better than the EV-1 of a decade ago.
I can not figure out what Ghosh enthusiasm is all about.
May 26th, 2010 (2:30 pm)It’s never been a stupid game. It has always been reality. You can either work within the current infrastructure to build the next, or you can embark on hugely expensive government “crash” programs to try and make the necessary sequence and order of events “go away.”
That’s not to say that
1) It can’t be done faster with enough national will, or that
2) The crisis in the Gulf won’t generate a more pressing sense of priority.
Even though all of America was up in arms over the fact that Russians beat us into Space, it still took nearly a decade to get to the Moon. And nearly 40 years later, the Russians have greater access to Space than we do!
We shouldn’t react in haste just because the need is dire; we could end up in worse shape than when we started.
If the oil spill influences individual EV sales, they’ll add up; and the result will be a sustainable growth for auto electrification which has real effects on US oil use, lasting indefinitely into the future.
May 26th, 2010 (2:32 pm)/you have always been my favorite poster
Robin’s Egg Blue is for mental patients…and Texans
May 26th, 2010 (2:34 pm)Well, close. I’m not talking about a Nissan commercial. Are there any test drives with driving impressions / comments by non-Nissan people?
May 26th, 2010 (2:39 pm)Hey! I resemble that remark!
May 26th, 2010 (2:43 pm)I agree (with big enthusiasm) that electric cars will change everything. Based on everything I’ve read on this site, there is a very good chance the Corvette could go ‘all-electric’ if it just had more power density of some new kind of battery pack, which we all here know is the magical EEstor.
Even though it gets lots of giggles, I still have hope that before I retire, EEStore will be a reality and will power a Corvette all-electric supercar.
That’s the stuff of dreams!
May 26th, 2010 (2:54 pm)Keep in mind that we do not know how long the LEAF battery pack will last, or anything about it’s warranty. Also, a future Volt model will have seating for five with higher charge density batteries which shorten the stem of the “T”.
May 26th, 2010 (3:07 pm)I beg to differ…we’ve always been played like pawns…win or loose, GM vs Nissan etc, etc, etc….never a true understanding of the “real” costs of the game…this individual is just glad to see the changes, finally.
May 26th, 2010 (3:15 pm)I guess I should not complain about the site. I have not been an active participant for well over 6 to 8 months. Maybe longer. I check the site pretty often for news, but don’t read the comments or make any comments myself to speak of. Just a few lately.
May 26th, 2010 (3:16 pm)Reposted from yesterday….
Off Yahoo home page…..
Tue May 25, 4:57 PM
DETROIT, Michigan (AFP) – The first year of production of Nissan’s new electric car Leaf has been sold out, the head of the Japanese automaker, Carlos Ghosn, said Tuesday.
“We have 13,000 orders in the US and 6,000 orders in Japan,” Ghosn said at a news conference in Detroit, the US auto industry capital.
Hopefully those who wanted one, paid their $99 deposit. Now it’s GM’s turn to start taking depsoits!!
GO EV!!! – Range Anxiety = Oil Dependency
May 26th, 2010 (3:20 pm)OT.
Magna (the main supplier for Ford’s battery needs in the future) is looking for ground to build Lithium battery production facilities.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/magna-eyes-sites-for-battery-plants/article1579943/
+3
May 26th, 2010 (3:24 pm)“Instead Nissan plans to build out the supporting public charging infrastructure ahead of regional rollouts.”
These charge points will help the VOLT as well as the LEAF. Our local EV group is already mapping out FREE charge points located throughout the area. Half a dozen and growing! Exciting times indeed!
GO EV!!! – Range Anxiety = Oil Dependency
+2
May 26th, 2010 (3:25 pm)Right. That plant is actually up an running now.
However, this is not a full-scale production plant. The idea is to demonstrate that they can do it at a larger scale and not just in the lab, and they have done this.
At this point, the main thing lacking is investment. With current gas prices, they can turn a nice profit. But if gas goes back down to $1.50 a gallon, then a full-scale cellulosic ethanol plant would probably go bankrupt. So with this in mind, would you be willing to invest a big chunk of your retirement into this? I wouldn’t. No wonder they can’t get investors.
But what if there were a floor tax to keep oil at current levels? Would you invest then? I would.
May 26th, 2010 (3:31 pm)The problem with Costakas process is that they depend on someone else to pay THEM to get rid of carbon based waste.. so if this process becomes popular you know that people will start competing for that waste and the $1 a gallon cost is going to go way up. They need to refine and downsize their plants so that every city can afford one to get rid of waste.
On the other hand another alcohol, methanol, is available in reagent grade at $1 gallon right now but you can use a lower grade to fuel an E85 enabled car, a lower purity methanol is probably profitable for $0.50 a gallon.
In the US methanol is commonly used today in windshield washer fluid (80% methanol), model airplane fuel and manufacture of bio-diesel.. it has the same corrosion problems as ethanol so you need cars to be prepared for it. It is toxic but so is gasoline.. and its fully biodegradable.
China is making a huge push into methanol to fuel their future vehicles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_economy
http://www.icis.com/v2/chemicals/9076035/methanol/uses.html
May 26th, 2010 (3:42 pm)All of the issues raised in the article are addressed in post #18.
These arguments remind me of when people were pitching fuel cells over EVs. They said EVs would use dirty electricity from coal plants, but fuel cells would all use nice clean sources. Now EV proponents are using the same arguments to bash bio-fuels.
Bottom line: If electricity can be produced without carbon emissions, then ethanol can have net zero carbon emissions as well. Bio-fuels can be used to power harvesting and transport. Let’s compare apples to apples.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (3:46 pm)I believe an all electric is a good bet. Once the electric rapid recharge station are in place what will be the
problem? Create electricity by solar,natural gas and wind power for a clean enviroment.
May 26th, 2010 (3:51 pm)Shouldn’t this read as “The plugin war between GM, BMW, Nissan, Mitsu, and Ford is well underway. Of course at this point its all PR as no saleable vehicles are on the road.”
Can’t wait until the EV Focus, MIEV, Mini Cooper are ready for sale. Then the real desire for all electric will be evident. And if you’re a one car family and you can find one, then buy a VOLT!!
All electric cars, whether they use gas or not, help the bigger problem get solved. The more the better!!!
GO EV!!! – Range Anxiety = Oil Dependency
May 26th, 2010 (4:02 pm)It’s right v left hand drive and Nissan has already announced that 1st year production capacity is sold out with respect to the reservation list. The risks exist but the market appears to have absorbed them for the first year.
May 26th, 2010 (4:10 pm)The fast charge japanese TEPCO plug/socket used by Nissan will be standardized soon, probably within a couple of months. It uses 500VDC at up to 125A to fast charge the battery, yeap its a DC voltage.
The fast charge port option will not be offered in all the LEAFS sold in the US.. only in regions that participate in the public infrastructure charging projects (Phoenix?). Nissan does not want to commit to that plug until it becomes standard in the US.
Chademo is an association that is pushing this protocol for fast charging.. so far the LEAF and iMiev are the two cars using it. Aker Wade and Coulomb Technologies are going to manufacture fast chargers using this connector in the US:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/01/akerwade-20100115.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO
BTW the J1772 connector (used in the Volt and LEAF) should go into mass production just about now, all the ones we have seen so far are expensive hand made prototypes.
May 26th, 2010 (4:18 pm)This doesn’t sound right.
My knowlege isn’t perfect, but here’s how I understand the process. Gasificantion does produce leftover biomass. This is burned to continue the gasification process. Since the process doesn’t require any nasty chemicals, the residual biomass after burning is used for soil remediation. So the trucks that bring the biomassl to the plant bring back the residuals. And the trucks can be powered by ethanol or other bio-fuels. So the whole thing is carbon neutral.
May 26th, 2010 (4:25 pm)The article was from 2008. I think this plant is operational now. I also think the dollar per gallon is the cost of conversion, not the cost of the feedstock and conversion and delivery.
And we have the problem as with all biofuels — you need a lot of raw materials. To produce 100 gallons of biofuel you need a ton of feedstock and 100 gallons of water. That’s a lot of feedstock and a lot of water. Seems like a logistical nightmare as you try to scale up to even a moderate sized plant.
May 26th, 2010 (4:26 pm)The EV Project
http://www.theevproject.com/
10,950 Level 2 (220V) Chargers
260 Level 3 Fast-Chargers
40+ Project Partners
4,700 Nissan LEAF Cars
In the summer of 2010, charging infrastructure will be deployed in the following major population areas: Phoenix (AZ), Tucson (AZ), San Diego (CA), Portland (OR), Eugene (OR), Corvallis (OR), Seattle (WA), Nashville (TN), Knoxville (TN) and Chattanooga (TN).
May 26th, 2010 (4:39 pm)Yes that’s a big job for France. France get’s about 75% of it’s power from it’s 59 plants. The US has just over a 100 plants that only account for 20% of electricity generated. Even with newer and bigger plants that’s a really, really big job in the US.
May 26th, 2010 (4:44 pm)So the whole thing with adaquete investment in transportation infrastructure, is expected to be pro-forma carbon neutral.
May 26th, 2010 (4:48 pm)http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/video/article300101.ece?vxSiteId=6247211d-66e0-4454-b73a-3f1610efa39a&vxChannel=Latest&vxClipId=1347_SUN44172&vxBitrate=300
May 26th, 2010 (5:15 pm)Thanks. I thought you had to have an account in photo bucket or something.
So here is my attempt at showing the “Chevy Lightning.” (Topic of a couple days ago.)
Someone wanted an EV or EREV Vette and someone else said not to call it a Vette, so someone came up with “Lightning.” Here you go:
May 26th, 2010 (5:23 pm)Zach, so if you don’t need an account, and it’s free, how long do the images stay there?
Like the pics? There from Austin (Dan Petit’s invite).
Thanks again.
May 26th, 2010 (5:36 pm)Nice video but the link does not work, just put LEAF in the search box and hit enter.
May 26th, 2010 (5:38 pm)Strongly reminiscent of the prototype Volt, don’t you think? Or the GMC Granite, or whatever it was. I mean, it’s not a minivan, but there are a lot of similar styling cues IMHO. I wonder what the Cd is? “More aerodynamic going backwards than forwards”, if you ask me.
May 26th, 2010 (5:57 pm)Both have serious wind catchers. I had just seen the “concept Vette” on May 16, so that’s what came to my mind when “Chevy Lightning” was mentioned. You know, my sense of humor.
May 26th, 2010 (5:59 pm)I didnt see any mention of communication lines? I think these would be necessary for a lot of reasons.
May 26th, 2010 (6:00 pm)While the extended-range capability of the Volt is far and away the best argument for buying one over a Nissan Leaf, I think there is another important argument one can make that favors a smaller 40-mile battery over the larger 100-mile battery, and that is in regards to recharging. If you go out to the Leaf website, you will see a video explaining how owners pretty much need to install a 240V charger in their garage. Because the Leaf’s battery holds more juice, even at 240V, it takes roughly 8 hours to fully charge a depleted battery. Contrast that with a Volt, which takes less than 3 hours to recharge at 240V, and about 8 hours to recharge using the common 120V socket.
For people living in homes with a garage, it won’t be that hard (in most cases) to install the 240V charger, but for those folks who live in neighborhoods with only on-street parking or who live in apartments or condos with shared parking lots, well, I’d say that it will be much easier to snake an extension cord to a nearby 120V receptacle to fully recharge a Volt than it will be to find a nearby 240V charging station to fully recharge a Leaf.
+2
May 26th, 2010 (6:37 pm)The electric makes the most sense for urban use with well defined travel patterns.
+6
May 26th, 2010 (6:42 pm)Computer freeze on the last post attempt…(but still posted a half comment…)
Basically, Cole’s comment that “The electric makes the most sense for urban use with well defined travel patterns” says it all — and it’s an oft-overlooked fact, even seemingly by Cole himself.
There are millions and millions of Americans who fall into this category and for whom an EV makes perfect sense (and who won’t suffer a bit from “range anxiety”). These people will leap for the LEAF, and other EVs, in droves — because it makes sense to do so, economically, and environmentally (especially, if, as is the case in our home, one powers that EV with a home solar system!)
As for the weekends, that’s when we — of the two-car households in the U.S., which, by the way make up more than 50 percent of American households — will jump into our PHEVs. That’s right EVs and PHEVs can be complimentary, a fact that seems to be lost on far too many people.
+3
May 26th, 2010 (6:53 pm)If you drive the Volt and the LEAF both 40 miles, they will both take exactly the same time to charge with a 110v charger. Dont forget, 80% of the public drives under 40 miles a day.
If I was given a choice between a 100 mile LEAF and a 300 mile LEAF, both with 110V chargers.. I would still take the 300 mile one… yes it will take a heck of a long time to charge but in a week or so of daily commuting it will be fully charged.
+6
May 26th, 2010 (6:58 pm)I just love how you guys only see things from a US perspective. If the LEAF doesn’t make sens in US (you think) it makes a lot of sense in other smaller countries where people are not spending 1/4 of their life in the car and this is, ultimately, for your benefit, because in time the batteries will only improve and after the real electric range will exceed 300 miles almost nobody will want to buy a car that has an ICE on-board.
And, please, forget the no quick refueling thing, how many of you have traveled more than 1000 miles a day? if you reserve 8 hours for sleep/recharge then you only need a 32KWh to fill your 1000 mile range battery.
May 26th, 2010 (7:05 pm)Good point, I guess they’ll have to ship them to Europe.
May 26th, 2010 (7:08 pm)That does look nice. Is it just because it’s underexposed and you can’t see the details?
May 26th, 2010 (7:16 pm)GB? But not Canada!
May 26th, 2010 (7:34 pm)Leaf better car. If 80% drive 40miles then leaf cover all of them and also those travel 50 or 60.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (7:41 pm)That’s why I ordered mine in black when placing my $99 deposit. As people say here, less “catfish” looking and still no gas burning, LOL!!
GO EV!!! – Range Anxiety = Oil Dependency
http://www.theevproject.com/
May 26th, 2010 (7:45 pm)It all goes down to this : we need to stop subsidizing oil in so many ways (including the military expenses) and create a situation where other forms of transportation (BEV, EREV) become a logical choice.
Europeans already did this years ago by giving a tax break for diesel fuel, which explains why diesel engines are so popular over there. People went for what was cheaper.
Although it will not be easily accepted in America, taxing oil one way or the other is the only way to help change things. We all make decisions with our wallet in mind. When EREV becomes a financially sound decision, people will change their way. As simple as that.
May 26th, 2010 (7:57 pm)I LIKE!!!
I’ve never been able to determine a length of time at tinypic. I keep recycling my old links, so I guess we’ll find out! I wouldn’t host a picture anywhere then erase it from my hard drive, which means the worst thing that could happen is that I’d have to upload again for a new link (I did that a few times before I thought to keep my wordpad document of links).
May 26th, 2010 (8:20 pm)People that don’t believe range anxiety is real must live in compact northeastern cities. In Houston it’s easy to drive 100 miles and never leave the city limits.
Just two days ago I had a “Leaf Busting Moment” when after my 50 mile daily commute I remembered my son’s Karate class on the other side of town. Oops, unplanned 100 mile round trip, but there is only 50 miles (at best range left in the Leaf). No option here but to drive my truck, (and burn twice the gas of a compact car).
There is no question for a lot of people, the 100 mile range is a serious limitation.
May 26th, 2010 (8:23 pm)I think this happened on his Tesla ride (the car was provided with less than a full charge). He made a video out of the experience, which he posted here. Remember “the Tesla grin” ?
May 26th, 2010 (8:39 pm)I do wonder what the real efficiency loss would be for an electric relative to hard acceleration.
Since theoretically it takes the same amount of energy to propel a vehicle to a specific speed, then it really would not matter if you “floored it” or you “feathered it”. While you would indeed run out of battery quicker, you would still go the same distance.
So, who knows what the penalty is for an electric car related to acceleration.
+4
May 26th, 2010 (8:48 pm)Yes range anxiety, if you possess it is likely a deal killer for you.
I view the limited range of the BEV just another of lifes challenges. You need to be aware of your situations and react accordingly. I live within a budget, so if I spend to much, I run out of money (cash flow anxiety). If I eat to much I get fat (overweight anxiety). If drink to much beer I get a hangover (wife gonna kill me anxiety).
Lifes tough…get on with it.
May 26th, 2010 (8:53 pm)Best wishes to all who ordered a Leaf. Whether you like Nissan or not. You have to love the attitude and leadership of Mr. Ghosn. I am an EREV buyer. It’s the electric vehicle that will mesh into the plans and needs of my family.
Anybody else sick of spending $50+ at Arco each week? A 40 mile recharge of the Volt battery, $1. Being able to drive past the Arco/BP station each day, priceless.
=D-Volt
May 26th, 2010 (9:24 pm)Ah yeah. I think you are right.
+1
May 26th, 2010 (11:18 pm)LOL, I get a hangover (wife gonna kill me anxiety)! Now THAT’s really anxiety!!! +1 for you!
Otherwise, plan ahead using the NAV system to locate charge points..
GO EV!!! – Range Anxiety = Oil Dependency
http://www.theevproject.com/
+1
May 26th, 2010 (11:56 pm)1. I have sent Nissan my $99.
2. I recieved an email saying because I am in a launch area that I will be toward the top of the list to get my car.
3. Nissan, state of TN and TVA power are going to set up lots of charging stations in this area and across TN.
4. I Love It when a plan comes together!
I’d buy a Volt except it is too much and too late.Maybe I’ll consider it by the time my wife needs a car if they cut the price by then.
May 27th, 2010 (12:02 am)I guarantee it is better than biodiesel from sewage sludge:
http://www.physorg.com/news193569763.html
May 27th, 2010 (12:04 am)I did a test drive in the Leaf: http://www.easyecar.com/electric-vehicle-test/nissan-leaf-first-drive/
+1
May 27th, 2010 (12:18 am)I carpool every work day. I find that more restrictive than 100 miles of driving range. If I think that the carpooling is worth it, I think I can make 100 miles of range work.
May 27th, 2010 (12:41 am)The feds would rather you die than evade taxes. I’ve heard estimates that denatured alcohol has killed 10s of thousands of people.
May 27th, 2010 (12:58 am)Not sure exactly what you’re saying but it takes different amounts of energy to propel the same vehicle to a given speed at different accelerations. Basically Power (watts) = Work / Time. So while it’s true that two vehicles of the same mass moving at the same speed have the same kinetic energy, which means the same amount of work has been applied to get them to that speed, if one got there twice as fast then twice the power (watts) was expended to get it to that speed. IOW work and power are different concepts.
May 27th, 2010 (1:06 am)Methanol is quite a bit more hazardous to health than gasoline because it is so much more readily absorbed from the skin and more easily picked up from inhalation.
On the other hand, the fire risks of methanol are so much less than gasoline. There is very little radiant heat and water can be used to put it out.
As you note, the environmental damage from a spill is much less due to it breaking down so fast.
May 27th, 2010 (2:57 am)Thats what everybody says but I think its a lot of FUD that came from Prohibition and homemade booze. I must have inhaled gallons of the stuff adjusting model airplane engines over the years.. and hands drenched with the nasty stuff.
+1
May 27th, 2010 (3:01 am)Herm did a great job of responding to this, but I was mentally composing my own reply before I saw his. Consider this a variation on the theme:
“So, how far did you drive today? Thirty miles?”
- Volt: No problem, plug it in and you’ll be fully charged in about 6 hours.
- Leaf: No problem, plug it in and you’ll be fully charged in about 6 hours.
“Oh, you say you went sixty miles?”
- Volt: I’ll bet you didn’t even notice when the engine kicked in, did you? Smooth as glass, huh? But you did have to use a bit of gas. If you keep that up, don’t forget to schedule a trip to the gas station every week or two.
- Leaf: No problem, since you got home in time for dinner. Just leave it plugged in for 12 hours and you’ll be fully charged in the morning.
“You’re not kidding? You actually went ninety miles?”
- Volt: I hate to tell you this, but you used a gallon of gas today. Well, at least you can brag to your brother-in-law that you got 90 MPG. Ask him if he can get that in his Prius.
-Leaf: Oh, dear! Feel a bit range anxiety, did you? Take courage, all is not lost. If you can hold it down to 50 miles a day for the next two days and charge 12 hours per night you should be up close to full again. But if you have to do this often, you really should get a Volt.
“120 miles? Man, you need to get another job.”
- Volt: Ouch! At least you are still getting about 75 MPG. Not bad, not bad at all.
- Leaf: Where have you been? Your dinner’s been cold for hours. And don’t give me some crap about car problems. It’s another woman, isn’t it? Don’t lie to me.
May 27th, 2010 (3:13 am)Theoretically you are right, it should not make a difference on range how hard you accelerate.. but our motors/inverters and batteries are not perfect and suffer from high power related losses.
Everything suffers from ohmic IR2 losses, batteries suffer friction from the lithium ions moving back and forth, and motors suffer from eddy current and saturation losses.. but a proper design will minimize all this. Aerodynamic drag dwarfs these “high power” issues.
The Tesla engineering blog has a good breakdown of these problems, its the green line in the wh/mile vs speed graph:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=70
One of the big differences between BEVs and ICE powered cars is that a sports BEV is actually more efficient than a low powered BEV.. when driven in a moderate way of course.
Room temperature superconductors will allow motors to be about 4%-5% more efficient… and vastly smaller. You should see the 47k hp electric motors used in Navy destroyers.. tiny things using low temp superconductors cooled with liquid nitrogen.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/01/365-megawatt-superconducting-motor.html
May 27th, 2010 (3:50 am)[Note: I posted this before seeing Herm's reply, but I'll leave mine here, since we address different aspects. One caveat: he's the expert, not me.]
Ah, but watts and watt hours are also different concepts. It certainly takes different amounts of power to propel the same vehicle to a given speed at different accelerations, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it takes different amounts of energy. In theory (ignoring silly things like wind resistance and friction) it would seem that the same number of watt hours would be required to reach a certain kinetic energy level (i.e. a given speed) regardless of the acceleration. However one does have to look into whether the battery and motor are equally efficient at a high power level and a low power level.
And in a real world we do also have to worry about wind and resistance. Ignoring them it would take no energy at all to cruise indefinitely on level ground once you reach your desired speed, and if it took the same amount of energy to get to that speed no matter how fast you accelerated, then it would take the same energy to go the same distance, independent of acceleration. The problem is, of course that wind resistance, especially, is much greater at high speed. If you accelerate faster you spend more time at high speed. Therefore you use more energy.
So JEC’s question is quite pertinent and the answer is counter-intuitive: fast acceleration doesn’t cost you, per se, unless you exceed the efficient power rating of the motor or the discharge rating of the battery. But the wind’ll get you in the end.
May 27th, 2010 (7:07 am)Leaf: no gas
Volt: no compromise & no strandings
Practicality is a huge advantage for the Volt and will be for at least 1 decade. BEV’s need a national rapid charging network, longer range, cheaper batteries, longer-lived batteries, etc before they can compete as mainstream cars. Till then they will mostly be niche vehicles for consumers willing to compromise, 2nd (or 3rd) family cars, and probably their biggest market in city fleets.
May 27th, 2010 (7:29 am)Yes, just as pure BEVs are pro-forma zero emissions.
Today, most electricity is made from coal, and most ethanol is made from corn, but neither will stay that way in the future.
That’s the beauty of both electricity and bio-fuels. You can make them many different ways.
May 27th, 2010 (9:35 am)Even if these numbers aren’t exact (and of course they never are), it is nice to see something to help determine if the numbers add up. Say you can create bio-fuels from corn stalks. Now add up the fuel used by the farmer to re-harvest the field collecting stalks. Add up the fuel used to drive 100+ miles hauling the stalks to the local ethanol/whatever plant, oh and to drive back home (with a big truck probably getting 8 mpg). We also need to apply at least minimum wage to the labor hours involved. Now how much ethanol/whatever do you get from this truckload of stalks? Does it outweigh the fuel used and the labor costs? That’s all I’m asking. If the answer is ‘yes’, then I’m a bio-fuels convert. If ‘no’, then it will never be economical without gov’t subsidies.
Perhaps the answer is to have many small production plants right at the farms. I just hope the farmer doesn’t have a drinking problem!
In any case methanol/ethanol/bio-diesel are far better ideas than the dreaded hydrogen. Hydrogen’s like using a credit card to pay off another credit card, you just move the problem. Not sure why people are blind to this.
As far as carbon-neutral, hmm, not sure I really care, to be honest. If you’re that obsessively worried about the health of the Earth, just kill yourself.
By the way, model airplane fuel (methanol, nitromethane, oil) works great for removing permanent marker. Not sure which ingredient does it, or if it’s the mixture.
May 27th, 2010 (10:44 am)Probably the nitromethane.. btw dont drink it!.. its methanol!!!
May 27th, 2010 (11:04 am)Yeah, gotta keep those straight, ethanol=buzz, methanol=death.
I’ve often thought that if I had a glow motor I was really mad at I’d try to run it on windshield washer fluid. If it even ran for a second or two I’d call it a success.
Oh well, not much glow use these days due to electric r/c becoming so good (last glow flight Sep ’04).
May 27th, 2010 (4:08 pm)Yeah I’m glad too.. I started flying electrics in 1984.
+1
May 28th, 2010 (12:39 am)No offense to this CEO but he reminds me of Mr. Bean LoL,
Anyway I like the Leaf (: more range and better batteries with time {:
Jun 10th, 2010 (12:27 am)Thanks for the link I have updated the post with a picture of the Nissan fast charger that I took infront of Nissan headquarters in Yokohama:
http://www.easyecar.com/electric-vehicle-test/nissan-leaf-first-drive/
when I was visiting Better Place Battery Switch station in Tokyo:
http://www.easyecar.com/better-place-news/better-place-battery-switch-in-tokyo/
Jun 23rd, 2010 (11:16 pm)Im not sure if it has been addressed, however when using Firefox I can never get the entire page to load without refreshing alot of times. Could just be my modem.