Recently GM announced the Volt would have a Mountain Mode that allows users to turn the generator on eariler allowing a deeper battery reserve for steep mountain climbing.
This led some commentators to speculate about letting drivers save or hold the EV mode for a later point in operation.
To wit commentator a commentator named APC wrote:
If I know my driving for the day will be longer than 40 miles, it would be cool to ’save’ my EV range for the time I want to use it, like creeping around in the city. I’d pick CS mode for long freeway runs, and switch to EV once in the city. Will the volt allow manual switching between the 2 modes?
It turns out GM has been thinking about this idea for sometime. After all its a simple electronic control to do so. A recent report refers to the feature as a “hold charge mode.” The use would be quite similar to what our commentator wrote, which it turns out may have value in Europe, but not the US.
In some European cities, drivers have to pay a fee once they enter city limits, except if they are driving a zero emission vehicle. So drivers coming into the city from the countryside may prefer to burn petroleum first and then turn the generator off and run on battery once inside the city limits.
Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz offers us the following comments:
Some of the capability and functionality that we are building into the VOLT will be truly exciting for the customers. Along with “mountain mode” we have other features planned that will further delight our future consumers.
Our friends at the EPA and CARB would not concur with a “hold charge” mode since it allows the customer to “burn gas” anytime they choose and is difficult to put a FE label on or otherwise regulate. (The) feature will likely make it for Europe. Mountain mode will essentially allow the same capability, i.e. saving your pure EV range for when you the customer wants to use it.
+2
May 24th, 2010 (6:42 am)Why, this is a very interesting idea.
I wouldn’t have a use for it, but it would still be nice to have the option here.
+5
May 24th, 2010 (6:50 am)A confusing reply.
Is Tony saying that mountain mode does the same thing? If so, why is EPA and CARB allowing that, but not the “hold charge” mode?
Beside, the whole issue of fuel efficiency labels would be moot if the EPA would adopt the common-sense (IMO) system many here have advocated: That of listing two numbers, one for EV range and the other for MPG when the ICE is make the electricity.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (6:51 am)Before we had no control of State of Charge, now we have 50%, the glass is half full. What makes the EPA think they know what we need? Nobody has any experience with an EREV. At least make it available on an “imported” Ampera, sold in the US, and get some real data on how it affects EV usage.
May 24th, 2010 (6:52 am)It will be interesting to see if anyone hacks into GM’s code and creates their own control parameters. Something like the ‘performance chips’ that are available.
May 24th, 2010 (6:54 am)Hmmm… Could this be yet another reason (in addition to its very distinctive yet handsome front & rear styling) for me to prefer an Ampera?
+2
May 24th, 2010 (6:54 am)Not to mention the EPA could just consider the Volt an ICE car, for testing purposes, and give it a 230 MPG rating.
+4
May 24th, 2010 (6:55 am)the CARB zealots are the ones that are interfering.. I doubt the EPA cares.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (6:56 am)It’s a demonstration of the power of the design.
Still “them but not us” leaves one a bit disappointed.
I hope those of us trying to be US customers will get some good Volt news before too long. It’s hard to keep being optimistic when each day brings some kind of downbeat news from gm.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (7:04 am)Heh – that hack will probably be out the first day the thing goes on sale!
+7
May 24th, 2010 (7:04 am)These are all software controls that could/can be added later via a download.
It is time to stop worrying about the minuscule details, and start building these cars in volume, so we can tell GM what we like, and what we think could be improved and/or changed!!!
And nasaman, I think that any cars imported for sale into the USA would have to be modified to meet the US EPA/CARB standards, don’t you think? I suppose you could go and buy one in Germany and ship it here, but then all the displays would be in German, which could make it a bit difficult for daily driving!!!!
Have Outlet, Ready For E-REV!
NPNS
+1
May 24th, 2010 (7:04 am)I can see this being similar to the scheme discussed several months ago, where some European cities may have “emissions free” zones, so you will operate the ICE in the countryside, and then operate in EV mode inter-city.
http://gm-volt.com/2010/02/07/jaguar-says-only-self-charging-extended-range-electric-cars-make-sense/
Although a similar scheme could be used here in the US, I believe the problem is that many might just leave the Volt in this “EV Delay” mode permanently, thereby reducing the zero emissions benefit.
I can certainly see this not passing the California low emissions test, unless some GPS or other control was used to guarantee that you used EV mode to the greatest extent possible.
+2
May 24th, 2010 (7:16 am)Our friends at the EPA and CARB would not concur with a “hold charge” mode since it allows the customer to “burn gas” anytime they choose and is difficult to put a FE label on or otherwise regulate.
I have a real problem with this line of thinking. The driver should be able to decide which energy source their car uses. I know the government/companies like to treat everyone like “Joe Six Pack” which is a good idea for safety concerns.
+3
May 24th, 2010 (7:22 am)As mentioned, I’d hate it if the Euros get such a feature and we’re excluded. I can see an EV mode switch as greatly beneficial on long trips , but am a bit confused when Tony says it’s the same as mountain mode.
As you know 2nd gen Prius didn’t get EV mode, but the Japanese and European ones did. It was looked at as a slight to us Americans, yet the 2nd gen Hybrid Highlander came with EV mode, and now – FINALLY the 3rd gen Prius does. Personally that does not help me-as my Prii has that flaw, the ICE coming on after 40 seconds or so no matter what – every single time you push the ignition. I can add an aftermarket EV mode switch , but it voids my warrantee….groan.
I can see EV mode giving us more “tools in the toolbox” of ekeing out the best AER numbers for any given route or trip. Just think of the fun we’d have comparing notes, optimizing range, etc. Of course, we’ll do that anyway, but EV mode would definately add value.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
+1
May 24th, 2010 (7:44 am)Well, that’s unfortunate. To say that Mountain mode is the same is a bit misleading, too. Mountain mode will just hold back a portion of the normal capacity available… not the entire thing.
Perhaps they will reconsider at a later date.
May 24th, 2010 (7:48 am)The prius has features only available in other countries and within a few weeks the mod is allover the internet only difference i can see is this time it is for regulatory reasons.
Tom
May 24th, 2010 (7:49 am)Here’s a question/comment: I remember hearing the mountain mode was useful if applied before the Volt driver started ascending a hill – thus, the driver needs to anticipate that the rise in elevation during his journey is mountain mode worthy ahead of time. I can see where one potential benefit of EV mode would be the driver’s ability to switch it on even if he has approached and begun an elevation gain, short or long, and can hit EV mode to kick in stored energy for a short amount of time to assure highest efficiency or as EV assist for more power as needed on demand.
Would this be a correct assessment?
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
May 24th, 2010 (8:04 am)Well, the problem with “mods” is, there are minor ones, such as defeating the annoying backup warning beep, which is a software override, simply a hack learned over the net which doesn’t effect your vehicle warranty status. Then there’s the more substantial mods such as the EV mode switch, which is a hardware addition which requires a purchase from an aftermarket merchandiser,(in EV mode’s case, about $150.00) and installation requiring at least a minimum of mechanical skills. Plus 80% of us are unwilling to risk voiding our new car warranty by doing so.
EPA regulatory complications would need to be addressed but I’m sure an asterisk with statement reading, ” figures not applicable when using EV or Mountain modes ” would take care of any confusion or liabilities. Hopefully GM will reconsider and give Volt the “full meal deal”.
RECHARGE! James
iF yOu BuIld tHeM tHeY wILL cOmE
+2
May 24th, 2010 (8:08 am)No one likes to feel like they are being treated unfairly, or even differently, but at this point, Let’s just get the *freakin* wheels on the road!!! (Oops, verbal spurt-age). Seriously, I can understand the rigidity of a govt agency needing to “certify” a repeatable mileage, but it still seems perfectly reasonable to list the AER and CS mileage, so, …no wait, I said it was a govt agency. Never mind.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+9
May 24th, 2010 (8:10 am)Early adopters may be delighted with these types of features, but the average Joe could care less.
For most people, the main selling points of the Volt will be:
• The electric “grin”, (quiet ride, no gear shifting, instant torque, etc).
• Only going to the gas station every 3 months (huge selling point for the average Joe).
• Comfort features like instant heat, the ability to cool or warm the cabin in a closed garage, etc.
• Flipping the bird at big oil (especially after the Gulf spill).
• Patriotism and Energy Independence.
GM Volt marketing seems focused on tree-huggers and geeks, but the above features have little to do with these demographics.
Again, I thing GM is in for a big surprise here. This is a mainstream car.
+8
May 24th, 2010 (8:11 am)It is called the government people. Any and all governments develop a natural distrust of the people. The EPA doesn’t mind “mountain mode” because it is the computer making the decision to hold more charge as opposed to a person deciding when to turn it on and off. I know this sounds a bit like a “cabin in Idaho” type anti-govt rant but I am serious. What the EPA’s mindset should have been is that they trust individuals to make the right choice and the right choice would never be to spend money on gasoline instead of electricity. So these individuals choosing to save their electric charge would only do so knowing that they will get more usage at a different point of their drive then the computer would. Would some people screw it up? Of course. But most people wouldn’t and the net would be a greater savings of gasoliine. Individuals making their own choices will always be more efficient then a “one size fits all” approach even accounting for the ones who make erroneous choices. The real irony is that those in Europe including the former Eastern European Soviet bloc countries will have more freedom on how to operate their car then us in the USA – land of the free!
Think about this long and hard before you ask the government to take control, em, I mean “help” you in any other aspects of your life.
Okay back to my cabin in the woods.
May 24th, 2010 (8:16 am)My understanding is that when you put it in Mountain Mode, it causes CS to start earlier than the ~30% DOD. I think the number was about 50%, thus allowing more residual in the battery to assist on steep climbs. The way I understand Hold Mode, it puts you in CS mode as soon as you tell it to, leaving whatever DOD you are at. When you take it out of Hold Mode you are left with whatever DOD to drive off the battery down to the ~30% level. Am I close?
+1
May 24th, 2010 (8:20 am)When you buy a new car, any brand of new car, it is usually the Salesperson’s responsibility to demonstrate and/or explain every function on the car….. With all of the functions that have been posted here, including this new one, I estimate a ‘perfect delivery’ should take no more than 2 hours AFTER they come out of the finance office. Sigh….
+4
May 24th, 2010 (8:22 am)Typical nanny-state over-regulated counterproductive foolishness. If I care passionately about the environment, and I wish to burn gas on my trip down from bucolic New England so I can go all electric, smog-free, once I get to New York City… there’s a government “environmental” bureaucrat telling me, “No!”
Nota bene: all political parties share in such stupidity.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (8:24 am)As a Prius owner , I have confidence that this feature will easily be accomplished with a fairly simple hack. In fact all the software is probably in the Volt already and all we will have to do is install the button.
The Prius guys have already:
installed a button to activate EV mode maunually in the Gen1 & 2 Prius
installed 8 kwh of Li batteries and turned the Prius into a plug in
The options are endless for the Volt.
Oh, by the way, we have a thread going in the forum where you can suggest what kind “Mods” you would like to have as an aftermarket add on for your Volt.
Please feel free to come and add your input!
+16
May 24th, 2010 (8:25 am)As for the ones on this site that snap a -1 to any post mentioning a Prius or Prius owner. You have to remember that if it weren’t for the Prius, there would be no Volt. Why is that such a hard concept to get across? You may be a big “Buy American” guy – or a GM fan, or ???…. But even Maximum Bob has said repeatedly that the Prius’ success raised alot of eyebrows and He and John Laukner felt they could “leapfrog the Prius” with Volt’s EREV technology. So if there were no Prius ( and it’s huge success ), I strongly believe there would be no Volt.
Anyone who knows me here knows I’m not a Toyota “troll” or some plant in here to stir up trouble. They know I want a Volt as bad or worse than anyone here and am a huge fan of EREV technology and even BEVs. So try and restrain the Prius hate, or Toyota angst just a bit, OK?
It’s better we all get along, and appreciate what is good, and stand for what is right. Let’s all play nice and just remind GM we want a Volt, and we want one NOW!
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
+2
May 24th, 2010 (8:25 am)lol. It goes beyond political parties. Let’s just say government in general.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (8:33 am)This feature alone would mean anyone driving into London could save on the congestion charges which are not cheap. In this situation, the will sell, and sell well based upon economics alone.
Hope this feature makes it downunder as well.
Have Plug? Have Sale!
May 24th, 2010 (8:36 am)The options on this car get better and better!
Choices are always good. When the VOLT gets on the road I predict this option will become available.
People will buy this car because it is a range extended electric. There will be fuel burned when on trips.
The merits of using this option will become evident and drivers here will get the “hold charge mode” choice and that will be a win.
I am ready to by the Volt when GM decides to sell.
+2
May 24th, 2010 (8:37 am)I did not think I would ever agree with the EPA argument but how would you enforce the compliance with the zero emission or for that matter how would they enforce it in London or other European cities. After you pass the checkpoint what prevents you from switching the SC mode if you are running low on charge.
May 24th, 2010 (8:38 am)Hi NZDavid. I saw a “one-liner” the other day. Is it true that they call your computer networking there the “LAN Downunder.”?
+1
May 24th, 2010 (8:41 am)I don’t particularly like Ampera styling over Volt. I really don’t like any car with a blacked-out grill or lower grill. I guess I’m just an old fogey from the chrome age.
May 24th, 2010 (8:44 am)You can get a waiver for ‘grey market’ cars. Most of the issues have to do with materials not meeting safety standards. (such as fire safety).
+1
May 24th, 2010 (8:51 am)Your suggestion does not solve one basic problem that the an EREV or other hybrids present for the EPA; how you credit this cars with zero or low emission if someone how just buys these cars for prestige but does not charge frequently and drives it mostly as an ICE. I know nobody on this website would do that. but this is a legitimate issue. I can see why many oppose (I do not) the 230 mile designation. Certainly to use that standard they would have to introduce a new concept of the amount daily driving per charge.
+2
May 24th, 2010 (8:52 am)How about a feature/button to let the driver go down to 20% instead of 30%? That would be an extra 8 miles of electric. This way you could go electric your last few miles in the city or on your way home, then plug in. Not sure what you would call this.. maybe “electric reserve mode”. It would’nt piss of the EPA/CARB ppl either. I assume the battery could take it.. but not sure how it would affect the life.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (8:54 am)Agreed. The government is mostly not elected. They are hired just like private companies and seem to stay on forever in their mundane bureaucracy.
May 24th, 2010 (8:55 am)When I bought my Prius they had it in the showroom ready for me to drive through the big glass doors and down the ramp – The only thing my salesman showed me was how to jump start the 12v battery, and where it was located in the rear juxtaposed to the jumper cable terminals under the hood. That was it – bingo bango bingo!
I’m sure Chevy’s protocol won’t be too much more complex. After all the Prius also has many driving details that seperate it from a conventional car – switches, buttons, touchscreens and driving modes (such as “B” mode on the shifter for regenerative braking to name one), yet they seem to let the customer deal with the inch thick owner’s manual* on their own and stand available to answer any questions.
Don’t kill me because I mention my Prius again…but so many things are parallels and they both are ground-breaking for their times and complexities ———— Really EREV Volt has no competitive rival, but the closest is not Leaf, but Prius.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
* oh yeah, the nav system’s manual was 1/2 inch thick with a CD! ( sigh )
+3
May 24th, 2010 (8:59 am)When driving on relatively flat land in “Mountain Mode”, the overall the economy would suffer. At the end of the day, one does not want to plug-in by having more than 30% left, because the car was left in “Mountain Mode. GM has explained this many times and it is not hard to figure out. IT IS ALWAYS CHEAPER TO CHARGE THE BATTERY FROM THE ELECTRIC GRID then to have the Volt generator charge it.
The “Mountain Mode” is exactly as the name implies. If one knows beforehand the generator will have to kick-in, then why wait for it to do so in middle of a mountain. Then, that way in reality the ICE did not go on needlessly.
May 24th, 2010 (9:02 am)In China and France, the have been multiple revolutions where the entire governing class was swept out and many killed. But the bureaucrats stay in place, doing the same function for the government in most cases.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (9:06 am)This whole restriction from the CARB boys just seems like a bunch of power freaks going overboard. What they forget is that we still have the choice on of the vehicles we buy.
Please just leave the Volt buyers alone. It is already so much better than a Ford Explorer.
+2
May 24th, 2010 (9:07 am)On this we definitely agree!
Maybe it’s filtered out by my rose-colored glasses, but I haven’t seen a pattern of -1′s that I’d associate with Prius. I suspect that there are many reasons some people hand them out – I limit them to name callers, but I’m just not seeing it as an anti-Prius thing – if for no other reason than MANY folks here OWN a Prius! JMO.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
May 24th, 2010 (9:12 am)Do you know what the EPA will allow and disallow with the Volt? I don’t think so, that info has not been made public.
As it stands today, does the EPA use a mountain as part of it’s evaluation? I don’t think so. If not why should it do so with the Volt.
Like the mode states “Mountain Mode” is for mountains where gas mileage can go way down, and is considered as not normal like a driver driving down the highway in low gear.
May 24th, 2010 (9:18 am)+1
May 24th, 2010 (9:21 am)Why do we need more regulations? Why do they care how we drive after we buy? If I choose to drive in CS mode all the time, all I have done is switch from ‘Hybrid Car’ to just plain ‘Car’ mode. And the gas mileage in full time CS mode is pretty good compared to my ’79. (I can easily switch from 15 mpg mode to 9 mpg mode just by pressing my foot down real hard!)
+3
May 24th, 2010 (9:23 am)FME III says:: “A confusing reply.Is Tony saying that mountain mode does the same thing? If so, why is EPA and CARB allowing that, but not the “hold charge” mode?
Beside, the whole issue of fuel efficiency labels would be moot if the EPA would adopt the common-sense (IMO) system many here have advocated: That of listing two numbers, one for EV range and the other for MPG when the ICE is make the electricity.”
—————————————————-
Seems clear to me. The US (ie. the Volt) will not get this feature.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (9:27 am)On the topic of Mountain Mode, there has been a production GPS released that “looks ahead” a mile and a half at the elevation changes and feeds the info into the truckers vehicle. It increases mileage by about 6%, if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, at this point, it’s only available for 18 wheelers, but it sure looks applicable to vehicles like the Volt. I know that at one point Bob mentioned a GPS keeping track of your home and dipping into the battery reserve just to get you home – allowing even more (conditional) electric range.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
May 24th, 2010 (9:38 am)I agree. I would love to have the opportunity to concentrate my emission free driving to the city as much as possible. That way it does the least damage to human health overall. Wouldn’t that be a good thing for everyone concerned? Why would the government want to stop me from doing that?
-1
May 24th, 2010 (9:39 am)They could take the $7500 credit away and let you have the hold-charge feature?
May 24th, 2010 (9:39 am)Agree they want to keep the car simple to operate.. The factory grandma settings will do for most people, but there is a large segment who likes to modify their cars. Maybe the option would be disabled by default, but could be activated if you ask for it. Or have an ‘advanced settings’ menu. The average Joe is none the wiser, but the people who like to tinker are able to. The more software-driven the car is, the more things we should be able to get at. Glad they are thinking about it!
+3
May 24th, 2010 (9:42 am)But why would anyone buy a Volt if they planned to use Charge sustaining mode most of the time?
+1
May 24th, 2010 (9:48 am)If this was done, there would have to be some method to record how often this was used and a formula applied to reduce your warranty.
+2
May 24th, 2010 (9:51 am)The truth of the matter is that the government of a country works about as effectively as the private sector of that country. Sometimes worse. But sometimes much better. For example, the IRS collects more revenue per its collection employee than private contractors hired to do the same job. Plus the IRS employees make fewer mistakes and violate guidelines less frequently. Ditto for comparing the job the military does when compared to contractors providing military service.
Let’s also not forget this site is dedicated to a car that will be produced by a company which only exists because of the government — and the government didn’t cause it to fail in the first place. It did that all on its own. Let us also not forget the on-going disaster in the Gulf brought to us by private enterprise. Or the recession brought to us by our friendly deregulated financial industry — if the government screwed up half as much as the masters of the universe on Wall Street did the government would be pilloried for decades. Finally, I don’t know about you, but when I turned my faucet on this morning I got nice clean water. And the kids went off to great schools. And I went to work on roads with functioning red lights and other forms of traffic control. Is government perfect? Absolutely not. But it’s hardly the giant screw up that you seem to think it is.
When government fails it’s usually because the incentives are wrong. In a democracy the fact the incentives are wrong is a failure whose responsibility rests firmly on the shoulders of the voters, who get what they want/deserve.
Fair criticism is one thing. Mindless bashing is another.
+3
May 24th, 2010 (9:52 am)Quick fix – Get our friends in California to declare a town “EV” only. Then, like Europe, we get Mountain mode, too. The EPA is simply obsessed with control.
+3
May 24th, 2010 (9:54 am)Somewhat off topic I watched the video by Tony Disalle on the other website. (He is the recently named new marketing director for the Volt. To me the video made 3 points
1. Prices are to come late summer or early Fall. (I thought that meant October.)
2. The original markets were selected to reach the “key influencers” who would talk a lot about the car and express views on social media. (Actually this group is us.)
3. Volt owners would have a helpful new gm website. (We already have one here)
I thought some of Mr DiSalle’s video was a little patronizing, spoken with utmost seriousness as if the idea of the Volt is really hard, whereas my wife, who is tech adverse but got the idea in less than 1 minute — plug it in and recharge it every day, just like the cellphone, and you don’t have to go to the gas station any more. She’s ready to buy.
Mr DiSalle has the difficult assignment of trying to say things that are slightly comical while not smiling, just waiting and waiting and waiting for any Volts to be built and for the management to toss him something substantial to say. Also, he must not approve any more dancers.
Mr DiSalle has a tough job. I wish him well and hope good luck surrounds him every step of the way.
May 24th, 2010 (9:56 am)Since when does the government determine things like this? Funny to think GM must dumb down their Volt because its technology is light years ahead of fed regs….
May 24th, 2010 (9:56 am)Yeah, like “Power Dump” when wanting to blast off. A 21st century version of nitrous.
May 24th, 2010 (9:56 am)Another option would be to automatically put the Volt into ICE mode at freeway speeds, thus saving the battery for city driving. You would then need an override button that would prevent people who have commutes less than 40 miles from going into ICE mode (even at freeway speeds)
+2
May 24th, 2010 (9:58 am)This sounds like a good place to relate the saga of Basic H.
There was a “multi-level marketing” (like Amway) company who offered a relatively inexpensive cleaner, “Basic H,” which could safely be used outside, since it biodegraded. However, it was not long before someone who washed their car in the yard noticed that not only did it biodegrade, it promoted plant growth. The company, Shaklee, wanted to add this property to the product’s list of attributes: but ran straight into a regulatory buzz saw. They could not market a product labeled both as a cleaner and as a fertilizer, without violating the laws of one or another division of our vast bureaucracy (I guess this tells us what would have happened to New Shimmer: “It’s a floor wax and a dessert topping!!”)
The solution turned out to be offering two separate products, each with it’s own compliant labeling; but otherwise chemically identical.
This story has little to tell us about the Shaklee Corporation 30 years ago, but worlds to tell us about our Gordian Knot of overlapping, choking regulatory overburden; which by now threatens to collapse under it’s own unmanageable complexity.
So, go ahead and use “mountain mode” as “hold charge mode;” and as you do so reflect on the dutiful ministrations of our public guardians (not).
+1
May 24th, 2010 (9:59 am)Zimbabwe?
+1
May 24th, 2010 (9:59 am)I have purchased a dozen new cars (and a couple dozen used ones) in my lifetime. I have never had a salesperson show me anything about anything related to the operation of the vehicle. Even when I asked about something (like where is the bumper jack?), they didn’t know.
Recently, I purchased a used 2009 Impala from a large dealer. The guy didn’t know much about it except that it did have ‘remote start’. He didn’t know why the windows wouldn’t roll down if the remote start was used. (The key has to be in the ignition and ‘on’.)
Overall, my car buying experiences have been dismal at best and a downright pain-in-the-ass most of the time. It takes hours (if not days) to get the deal done.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:01 am)I always wondered what that HOLD button was for on the early pictures of the center console. It’s below the ECON button on the left side.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:05 am)Perhaps you missed the wink at the end of my sentence?
I am pro government to a point. I don’t follow it blindly.
How about Bridge to Nowhere?
How about the ineptitude in the Gulf right now where the government needs to approve a plan for the oil booms that are not being used as the oil hits land?
Come on DonC. Let’s be serious for a moment. The government does some things well and some things poorly. That is life.
May 24th, 2010 (10:05 am)Very good point. I expect they would simply honor your word. If they felt this was not adequate then there is probably capability in the Ampera’s computer to record times in CS mode and this information might be accessed remotely via OnStar through special government permission/password. This in turn would produce demand to allow the Ampera to drop below 30% SOC.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:06 am)If it gets 50+ mpg and has performance like a sports car? I’m guessing some will, however it would be far more likely for the owners of the EREV20 (20 mile range version) of the Volt which has been forecast. It will certainly be a less-expensive purchase with the smaller battery.
Before the inevitable comments appear asking for a CS-mode-only Volt, I should point out that you need a fairly sizable battery to allow CS-mode over a typical automotive lifetime; and if you have a pack that size, it makes no sense not to plug it in.
Most likely of all to use CS-mode most of the time, in about a decade, is the owner of a used Volt that may have compromised AER, but still operates reliably in CS-mode. (50+ mpg is 50+mpg … and they can eventually sell it to some kid who wants to stuff in new, modern batteries to make a hot rod … )
May 24th, 2010 (10:06 am)Because then they can’t measure it. And because they want to minimize the pollution released into the air, and the best way to do that is to insure you always exhaust the battery.
As for concentrating emission free driving in the City, it doesn’t really matter, does it? If you release X number of pollutants into the air you’re releasing X number of pollutants into the air. FWIW most gas is formulated such that the formation of many of the noxious pollutants are delayed. In LA this means that the worst pollution occurs well east of the city (prevailing winds are onshore). Where I am the worst air pollution occurs in the pristine looking mountains to the east where, ironically, some people move thinking they’re getting cleaner air.
Rather than criticizing CARB I’d criticize the Britts for having what strikes me as a dumb rule in the first place. At best it’s a beggar your neighbor approach. You’re taxed by one city in order to encourage you to pollute somewhere else. Lovely. (Although because of the with the wind I doubt it would work very well).
The best solution of course would be to charge the car — opportunity charging — when you’re in the city. That way you’ll release less pollution and you’ll spend less money running the car. Think of it as the “Lyle” approach.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:09 am)I’m not sure what you mean by incentives in this paragraph, but I certainly agree that voters are going to, in large part, get what they “bought” with their vote. There are plenty situations where our govt does *not* reflect the desires of the population, but there’s always the next election around the corner.
And now, back to the Volt.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
May 24th, 2010 (10:13 am)Sorry Rashiid. I missed your wink. I’m completely with you. I’m probably overly sensitive to government bashing because I live and work among the technological masters of the universe.
Government can be absolutely horrible. No question about it. On a one to ten scale I’d generally give them a 4. Just not a -13.
May 24th, 2010 (10:13 am)Convenience (not dealing with that scary plug-in thinger) and husband dependence. Believe it or not, a lot of women (and also a lot of men) have no idea how things actually work or what is needed to keep it working.
If her husband took care of all the car stuff (including gassing and recharging) she would never know that it needed these things.
We (husbands) are our own worst enemy sometimes.
May 24th, 2010 (10:17 am)That’s what the “Sport Mode” is.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:24 am)A similar situation has now arisen with Viagra, which now is shown to cause hearing loss. So not only does it do… well, you know… but it also makes your wife’s nagging seem to go away!
Now if they could only make it go to the fridge and get you a beer, it would be everyman’s dream come true.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:26 am)You plug it in, just like your cell phone. Not hard to understand or to do.
May 24th, 2010 (10:26 am)You should complain to GM and name the dealership(s). GM needs feedback from customers. They need to dump bad dealers because bad dealers tarnish GM’s reputation. My experience has generally been excellent, there are a lot of good dealers.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:27 am)You can argue that the increased number of vehicles in a limited area directly affects livability in that area. I notice air pollution in a city far more than I do anywhere else. I agree with the rest of your comment though; and I would even go further: If a city is that concerned about pollution within it’s borders, they can be sure to provide for opportunity charging there; perhaps combined with parking spaces set aside for EV owners. The carrot has, historically, worked better than the stick.
May 24th, 2010 (10:30 am)I hope this means that these are the only types of ‘issues’ that are showing up in the never ending testing. Stop hogging all the fun, GM!
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:32 am)_________________________________________________________________
From Lyle’s article GM’s Tony Posawatz is quoted:
“…Our friends at the EPA and CARB would not concur with a “hold charge” mode since it allows the customer to “burn gas” anytime they choose and is difficult to put a FE label on or otherwise regulate. (The) feature will likely make it for Europe. Mountain mode will essentially allow the same capability, i.e. saving your pure EV range for when you the customer wants to use it.”
————————-
Considering “Mountain Mode” and “Hold Charge” are basically the same thing under different names, is it not just a matter of what the button is called? It would be perfect if the European bureaucrats discouraged/disallowed “Mountain Mode”.
Off topic…Follow up to Lyle’s May 18th article titled “Google Maps to be Integrated With Chevrolet Volt Android App and OnStar”:
Those commenters that expressed concern (i.e. Dan Petit) that internet connectivity while driving is a safety hazard would be happy to know that a clever inventor has come up with a good solution:
http://www.steering-wheel-ipad.com/
Make sure to read the testimonials under the “Stories” tab. Also click on the patent link under the “About” tab.
_____________________________________________________________________
May 24th, 2010 (10:36 am)This is debateable. I’m sure I could think of quite a few examples here in America. I’m not saying I want any rights taken away, but we still might not have seatbelt in cars if it wasn’t a law. Not to mention car seats for kids. But rant on. I love it.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:38 am)No issues, my friend. Thanks for the clarification. Enjoy your day.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:38 am)Huh? SPEAK UP! (g)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 24th, 2010 (10:42 am)I guess they figure that most American drivers can’t handle a clutch, so letting the driver plan a route and flip switches along the way is out of the question?
I guess I just don’t see eye-to-eye with other people and with car manufacturers on that one. The vast majority of my miles are on manual-transmission cars, and I’ve only owned 2 automatic transmission cars over my entire driving career, and one of them is a Prius. And the Prius isn’t really an automatic transmission, even if the driver’s interface is nearly-indistinguishable from one — except that you can hold the engine at a constant RPM as you accelerate up a highway on-ramp. What’s wrong with having a little bit of a learning-curve for the driver, if it means that you can use the car more effectively?
Automatics have their place, but the driver has to drive their car. The driver is not a passenger.
+5
May 24th, 2010 (10:43 am)Theoretically yes. But, in practice, there are generally only two options at the ballot box that have any chance of getting elected. If I don’t like either of them, I have to go with the least bad option. And that seems to be more and more the case lately.
It’s not like I have the option of a candidate who supports a gas tax. Or getting rid of corn subsidies. Or water subsidies, for that matter. Or spending more money on infrastructure. Fixing the sewer systems. Or investigating all the union members who have retired on disability who really aren’t disabled. Or cutting the deficit. (Although they all seem to promise that one, no one ever seems to deliver.) Right now, I can’t even find a candidate I can trust to get my state’s budget in on time!
May 24th, 2010 (10:44 am)London is doing exactly that.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 24th, 2010 (10:52 am)I can see buying a Volt even if you do a lot of long distance driving. But why not use the battery that you have as much as possible? It’s just a waste of money not to use it if you have it. You’re buying a more expensive car than you need to. And you’re spending more money on gas than you would on electricity.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:53 am)OK, I read the glowing testimonials. The first guy should not be allowed to drive. Yes this might be safer for a person determined to use their IPod while driving but driving and doing any other task is dangerous and here definitely illegal. Also since it covers part of the rim, it interferes with steering in an emergency. This device should be illegal, and anyone using an IPod while driving should loose their license.
+3
May 24th, 2010 (11:02 am)But if I’m really determined to use only charge sustaining mode, they can’t force me to charge my battery. Besides, the whole point of buying the Volt is because I want to a) help the environment, and b)reduce our dependence on foreign oil. If that didn’t matter to me, there are a lot of cheaper cars out there to buy. I would assume that most Volt owners feel the same way. We don’t need to be forced to use electricity.
In New York, the worst pollution is in Manhattan proper. LA, in general, is much more spread out than New York City. Concentrated pollution is much worse than diffused pollution. Personally, I think we’re better off polluting away from the most densely populated areas areas as much as possible. But that’s just me….
+2
May 24th, 2010 (11:03 am)My first example would be that as a government worker you usually get paid based on how many people report to you. (This happens in the private sector as well but it has moved away from this approach). As a consequence every government agency has an incentive to regulate everything extensively since extensive regulation requires a lot of people, and a lot of people equate to more dollars in their paychecks and more influence.
A second timely example, given the Gulf oil spill, would be the MMS. There you get paid/promoted based on how much revenue you’re generating. Not surprisingly this means that safety regulations don’t get enforced since actively enforcing them could decrease the royalty stream.
A third example on the local level would be teachers who are rewarded for simply hanging around. The longer you’ve been there the more benefits you get. Not exactly a lot of incentive to do a good job teaching.
Moreover, for all government workers the question is becoming whether we can afford them. Initially the idea was that government workers got great benefits and retirement packages to offset the fact they were paid less than the private sector. But now the government sector is being paid more than the private sector AND the government sector still enjoys much higher benefits. Hard to see how most state and local governments are going to pay for all those promised benefits in the upcoming years. To me this is because the politicians who are charged with negotiating these contracts have no incentive to do a good job. Their incentive is to avoid any shutdown of services by kicking the problem down the road because by the time the check comes due they’ll be long gone. Here is CA the government unions also are big political players, and it’s impossible for politicians elected with the backing of the unions to drive hard bargains.
Ha ha. At this point I guess you can see I’m not a huge supporter of big government! I’m just not keen on saying that every government worker is incompetent.
May 24th, 2010 (11:06 am)Operating a clutch and shifting gears does not take the driver’s eyes off the road or distract the mind from the task of driving. I don’t have a problem with learning, but I have a big problem with unnecessary distractions. Planing a route is to me a grey area, if it is simple, maybe ok, but if the driver has to concentrate on a map for more than 1 second it is dangerous.
May 24th, 2010 (11:10 am)I can’t imagine relying on my boyfriend to that extent. Or a husband for that matter. But to each their own.
That said, if she has no idea what the car needs, why would any woman press the button to keep the car on charge sustaining mode all the time?
+1
May 24th, 2010 (11:12 am)“As I understand things” they are quite different –
MM – moves the CS switchover point up to a bit higher fixed value, so from 30% charge to something like 35% or 40%
HC – locks the switchover point to where it is right now, this could be anywhere from 30% to 80% charge (assuming that’s the used battery range for the Volt)
I pray they don’t put both modes into the same car (whether Volt or Ampera), I can only forsee yet more confusion resulting. Most people seem to have a hard time just understanding that the ICE motor is not mechanically connected to the wheels…
May 24th, 2010 (11:17 am)It will be interesting to see if anyone hacks into GM’s code and creates their own control parameters. Something like the ‘performance chips’ that are available.
I hope what doesn’t become even more interesting is whatever GM has done to prevent hackers from doing that.
+3
May 24th, 2010 (11:21 am)I can’t argue with this at all. (Of course it raises the issue of why zoning always puts the highest density housing next to freeways but that’s another issue). But let’s analyze what the situations might be, understanding the most important point that a vehicle creates the vast majority of pollution during the first few minutes it runs. After that the converters heat up and it emits very little.
There are many possible situations. One is that you drive sixty miles to NY. In this case you won’t emit many pollutants on your way into Manhatten since the converter will be quite hot. Another might be you drive ten miles to NY, in which case you’ll stay in EV mode and you won’t emit any pollution. A third would be that you drive forty miles into NY. Here the ICE will kick on just as you enter Manhatten and you’ll pollute heavily. But the question here is: “Will it matter?” A 10 MPH wind will clear out this pollution in half an hour. Had you started the engine twenty files from Manhatten and the wind was at your back you’d have more pollution being blown in than what you’d create as you entered. The point is that there are so many possibilities that, rather than having everyone try and calculate what works best for them, the better solution is to use EV mode until the battery expires. That solution also has the advantage of providing the maximum incentive for people to use opportunity charging, and opportunity charging is hands down the best way to reduce pollution.
May 24th, 2010 (11:23 am)Oh THOSE incentives (g), I thought you were referring to tax credits, etc.
Alas, I fear that we agree 100% on the downsides of big government. (lol)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 24th, 2010 (11:31 am)Are you sure about that? I thought the intent was to allow the ICE to charge the battery fully.
I agree that it would be redundant to some extent. But I don’t think it would be all that confusing. In fact would it be obvious that a driver should put it in HC mode when approaching mountains? Sometime clearly labeled functions are better.
A large number of drivers have no clue what goes on under the hood and couldn’t care less. These drivers are only concerned that when they turn the key, they can drive somewhere. They will not care how the Volt gets better mileage, but will understand that electricity is cheaper than gas and plugging in uses less gas. That is all that really matters.
May 24th, 2010 (11:32 am)Sometimes men say the most interesting things.
As for why she’d just keep pushing the button, that would be a mystery. But I have a surgeon friend who can’t figure out how to use the radio on his BMW 7 Series and he’s always pushing buttons.
+3
May 24th, 2010 (11:39 am)Engineers working on the Volt are favoring economy over sport. The Volt could accelerate harder. The ground clearance could be increased. The wheels could be bigger. Styling could be more angular.
All these things would make driving the Volt more enjoyable. It would also cost 5 to 10 mpg in CS. Let’s leave the engineering to the engineers. Gen 3 is when the party really gets started.
=D-Volt
May 24th, 2010 (11:46 am)That’s what I tried to say in my comment #21, except I remember the “switchover point” as 50%.
May 24th, 2010 (11:50 am)Sorry, you asked “why would anybody,” which does not necessarily imply logical reasoning
. These issues seem obvious to us, but the auto-electrification movement is going to illicit some very puzzling (and now, unpredictable) behavior on the part of the great unwashed, I suspect. We’re likely to hear some pretty bizarre stories over the next decade.
I keep imagining a public service announcement for plug-in owners which is a play on the old “Glade Plugins” commercial: “Plug it in, plug it in … “
About the only logical reasoning I could think of for favoring CS-mode would be if I had cause to think that heavy use of the battery would shorten it’s life (contrary to what we’ve been told, BTW). If I buy a Volt and gas continues to decline in price, I might be less inclined to opportunity-charge for more than one cycle of the pack per day; saving it for that future instability which makes gasoline hard to find or suddenly high in price (like 2008 after the hurricane). But yes, I would still plug it in.
May 24th, 2010 (11:54 am)I must applaud your astute observational skills. That was subtle.
May 24th, 2010 (11:55 am)Yeah, but when you need to do something big it’s realistically the only tool in the box.
Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of misplaced incentives in the private sector. The incentives for accounting firms to take on fraud prone clients would be one — Arthur Anderson RIP. Or WS traders who benefited from trades that in the short run were good but which killed the firm in the long run. There are also plenty of opportunities for self delusion in the private sector. UPS used to pay out their executives based on the company’s stock performance. Well UPS then didn’t have any publicly traded stock, so the stock price had to be calculated. Using the highest skilled economists and consultants available the conclusion was always that the stock price would have done really really well. Confident in the methodology, in 1999 UPS went public at something well south of the inputed price. Since then it has headed even more south. How could they have gotten it so wrong? Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha!
May 24th, 2010 (11:59 am)I did not read all the comments so pardon me if this is redundant.
I think governmental agencies may well require EV mode in special areas, such as Yosemite in the future so why not, if we want the car to be “perfect” provide for that eventuality.
Second, I do hope everyone that votes for nanny government advocates (i.e leftists and dictatorial elitists) can see how government regulation thwarts innovation and therefore hinders global market share.
Third, we may be looking at a form of scapegoating, to cover-up the absence of this feature, blame “possible” government intervention.
Go Volt, floor it GM
May 24th, 2010 (12:04 pm)There is one reason that I would LIKE it for. If I’ve got my new Volt here in the Detroit area and want to go show it off to my relatives in Ohio it would be nice to punch the button so that there is 40 miles of pure electric driving once I arrive. Having to wait 10 hours while it charges on 120 volts to show them pure EV mode would not be sexy.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (12:08 pm)Other matters: Ford is set to announce 5 EV’s today. And tomorrow Carlos Gohsn is going to speak at a Detroit Economic conference, and “emmisions free vehicles” is going to be one of three topics he will address.
-1
May 24th, 2010 (12:09 pm)Still thinking, after the edit ran out.
Here’s a direct example of what I was talking about in #94:
The first Volts will not (by and large) go to EV enthusiasts who truly understand it’s intended operation modes, or basic premise. It will go to Hollywood starlets, Sports jocks and Government officials. There is some reason to suppose that for many of those, the primary benefits of the Volt are secondary to the public perception of their own “green-ness.” If someone is driving a Volt with the generator running, who knows if they did or didn’t plug in? They may have exhausted their 40, or maybe they didn’t bother to plug in. Either way, the overriding concern of public perception has been met.
This underscores the rottenness inherent in the initial targets for Volt roll-out: Those who understand the car best, who can do a better job of demonstrating it’s unique attributes, will be the ones who must wait for their opportunity, after their cultural “betters” who, more than likely, do not care.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (12:09 pm)I just went back to the Mountain Mode discussion and found the detailed information was on an audio file and Larry Nitz only said “it bumps it up.” He doesn’t say what the % point is.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (12:15 pm)Both of you make very good points. I stand corrected.
May 24th, 2010 (12:20 pm)HaHaHaHaHaHa!!! I love this site (gm-volt, not the steering wheel thing).
+2
May 24th, 2010 (12:22 pm)DonC
Thanks! The government is not allways a screwup. In general, people seem to remember the negative. I work in I.T. and of course when things are working and going smooth, because we are on top of things, no one remembers or attributes it to the hard work we do behind the scenes. When things are going bad, it is remembered.
Our government means well and yeah there are screwup, fraud and ineffeciencies in government, but I have seen the same things in private industry. I think the larger something is, whether it is a private company or government, the more chance for fraud and ineffecincies to creep in.
Just my 2 cents.
May 24th, 2010 (12:34 pm)When I finally broke down and bought an iPod (try finding Classical Music on the radio sometime), I tried to put it on the passenger seat and run it through a cassette-adapter. Yes, this was very distracting and annoying. When I got my Honda Fit last year, it came with a shallow compartment above the glove box which contains a USB connector. I put an iPod in there, plugged it in and closed the compartment door. Now I can run the iPod through the radio (categories and names appear on it’s display), which is much, much easier.
I also put most of my lifetime of driving in on a manual. The ‘logic’ of when to shift becomes second-nature, and allows you to do things no automatic can do: hence the higher mpg with a manual (which improves with practice). However, I was commuting 45 miles through bumper-to-bumper traffic; and I was pushing that clutch pedal in hundreds of times one way. When I had trouble staying off of a cane, my wife put her foot down (pun intended), and I got the first automatic (the Fit) I ever bought for myself to drive. It wasn’t distraction, or mental preoccupation, it was the sheer mechanics of using the clutch which became a problem.
What doesn’t become second-nature is reading displays and pressing buttons. There are factors which can make that easier, but you can’t use muscle-memory and allow the less-conscious portions of your brain to carry most of the load. When we talk about gee-whiz functionality being piled into the Volt, we need to keep this in mind.
May 24th, 2010 (12:36 pm)True. Unfortunately, we can’t force people to charge their batteries. And wealthy people have less economic incentive to charge than ordinary people….
May 24th, 2010 (1:12 pm)People do the wrong thing for the wrong reason all the time. Buttons on a new car are no different.
I once gave my grandmother a little clear cube with a sponge in it. The design was so that you could put pictures between the plastic and the sponge to display them. She used it to bathe. (Hopefully, she won’t zot me from heaven for sharing that story!)
I believe that a ‘mountain’ button and a ‘hold’ button will have different meanings to different people based on their knowledge base. They will have no idea that it causes them to use more fuel.
And for us older folks, these little pictures on all the buttons are a real pain. What the heck does a ‘snowflake’ button do? (Oh yeah, it turns on the a/c.) How do I know it doesn’t make it easier to drive in snow? Well, I guess I could read the manual, but, that’s not my normal response to buttons.
May 24th, 2010 (1:24 pm)I guess I need to qualify “using an IPod” is dangerous while driving. Obviously not if you are just using it to listen to music, I was thinking of other things like texting and reading.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (1:31 pm)Point taken. I have to admit, I sometimes do the press-any-button-to-see-what-work-works thing myself…I just didn’t think of it in relation to driving. I kind of assumed that once you own a car, you learn how to do all the things that matter. But, then again, I still don’t know what half the options on my DVR do…
But, anyway, I agree. It’s probably better to err on the side of Idiot proofing the car as much as possible.
May 24th, 2010 (1:37 pm)If California is causing all this grief, just decide not to sell the Volt in California until they’re more accommodating. Then divide their share among the 47 states that aren’t so picky, half Volts half Amperas. It’s just a field test anyway, why not get a broader sampling of climates and driving situations.
May 24th, 2010 (1:38 pm)LOL. I can see your point. Maybe they can visit you in Detroit?
By the way, I once called Tesla a “sexy” investment, and the post went into moderation. I assumed that anything with that word would be moderated…guess not.
+4
May 24th, 2010 (2:02 pm)When the Volt concept was displayed for the first time, GM drew a HUGE line in the sand for their engineers.
- 50mpg minimum
- 40miles AER under most conditions
- 10-year battery life
- Low CD and high-efficiency accessories
- Ability to charge safely using standard outlets in any country (no special paddle or charge station)
- 300+ mile total range
- Universal design for worldwide compliance (even California)
- Ability to drive solely on electricity at any speed. (Not a parallel hybrid)
- affordable and build-able
In retrospect, this all sounds quite impossible using 2007 technology. But they are doing it and I don’t really care if it has c/s-mountain-hold-or-sport mode.
Just get me one of these amazing machines!
PS. I kind of like sport mode
May 24th, 2010 (2:04 pm)11 states follow California guidelines, fully half of all cars sold in the US fall under CARB’s strict emissions control.
May 24th, 2010 (2:48 pm)I believe that fully-charge-using-ICE feature was mentioned a while back for some other company’s electric car (Jaguar?).
From the quoted article:
“You can hit a button and wherever you’re at on your state of charge, it will hold the charge sustain at that point. It’s like saving your EV miles,”.
Although I can see my “HC – locks the switchover point to where it is right now” was poorly worded, should have been “..to where the battery state of charge is right now”.
Oh well, in any case it’s all software and will be continually changing until November (and in various updates after that!). They don’t call it soft for nothing.
May 24th, 2010 (2:54 pm)In the software business, we call it ‘apple polishing’. Software engineers, like other disciplines, will change and tweak things forever if you let them.
At some point in time, ya gotta call a code-freeze and shrink-wrap the thing for shipment!
May 24th, 2010 (2:55 pm)This webpage/article looks very “Onion-ish”. All they needed was a story by “area man”
But it would not suprise me if people do something like this. I have seen drivers with books between their hands on the steering wheel, cruising down the expressway.
May 24th, 2010 (3:04 pm)There’s more to it than that Don. See this article to get the backstory on what happened to our automobile industry, and why.
http://www.uwsa.com/issues/trade/japanyes.html
May 24th, 2010 (3:42 pm)This driver’s daily round trip is just about the 40 mile range. So with seasonal power drains for heating or cooling, the effective EV range during some parts of the year will likely be less than 40 miles. So “mountain mode” would allow CS mode for a small portion of the outer fringes (rural and ‘burbs) of those seasonal trips, saving the EV mode’s zero emissions for the closer-in / urban portion of the trip.
Agree with some previous posters that while pollution is pollution, adding to the existing urban higher percentage doesn’t make much sense.
May 24th, 2010 (3:54 pm)_______________________________________________________________
#116 kdawg said:
…This webpage/article looks very “Onion-ish”
———————————————-
kdawg,
The referenced patent link clearly reveals the substantiveness of the invention.
_________________________________________________________________
May 24th, 2010 (4:02 pm)As well as the quotes from Max and Stan (check them out on wikipedia). Very impressive!
May 24th, 2010 (4:08 pm)Life’s not fair.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 24th, 2010 (4:15 pm)Ok, make it 39 states then. I’m sure they’d be glad to have some Volts. After a year there’d be some real data to mine. Like total Lbs, er grams of carbon emitted during the year.
May 24th, 2010 (4:23 pm)Exactly! Since a VOLT in charge-sustaining mode which gets 50 MPG can be purchased much cheaper known as a Chevy Cruze for $15-20k…
Use electricity FIRST then gas it up if you need to….
GO EV !!! – RAnge Anxiet = Oil Dependency
May 24th, 2010 (4:24 pm)Exactly! Since a VOLT in charge-sustaining mode which gets 50 MPG can be purchased much cheaper known as a Chevy Cruze for $15-20k…
Use electricity FIRST then gas it up if you need to….
GO EV !!! – Range Anxiety = Oil Dependency
May 24th, 2010 (4:28 pm)Don’t forget that the Volt is being built to meet European standards too.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 24th, 2010 (4:33 pm)Isn’t there an expression something like “Time to shoot the engineers” (as in it’s time to start producing the darn thing).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 24th, 2010 (5:23 pm)#10
Amen. +1
AFAIC, it’s just fine the way it is. I have no need of this “manual mode”.
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
May 24th, 2010 (5:30 pm)#110
I live in CA and follow air pollution issues quite closely. I have heard nothing of CARB getting involved in this issue. Is there some documentation of this somewhere? It sounds like urban legend in the making to me. If you follow the doings of CARB, there have been no stronger boosters of PHEVs anywhere.
May 24th, 2010 (6:11 pm)LMAO!
Now that was friggin’ funny…
May 24th, 2010 (6:17 pm)I am sure the GM engineers are working to a finely tuned specification that defines all the “must haves” and then the “nice to haves”. It is difficult to stop changing something to add another tweak, followed by another tweak, and yet another.
All these bells and whistles need to be tempered, and the basics just need to be completed and verified to the Nth degree.
Fun…fun…fun
May 24th, 2010 (6:29 pm)EPA and CARB duty is to evaluate. GM must therefore resist this unintended legislative expansion. GM puts in the appropriate EV options and let EPA and CARB figure out how to deal with this on their own.
I must say Tony Posawatz comment “…Along with “mountain mode” we have other features planned that will further delight our future consumers.” If this as I assume means range — bodes well for VOLT.
For those Flatlanders, sure, do 40 BEV, and then whatever ER. Then there’s the rest of us. A short 3% grade at 50 mph will, notwithstanding traffic and weather, wipe out the battery in less than 20 minutes. With ‘Mountain Mode’ its another whole ballgame.
May 24th, 2010 (7:36 pm)I just want to buy one as soon as possible with cash. Why does GM not seem to understand this? I still see GM potentially squandering a huge opportunity here…
May 24th, 2010 (8:52 pm)Just put Bob Lutz’s home address into the GPS, press the goto function whilst holding the mountain mode button and now the mountian mode button will become charge sustaining mode. If you hold the power mode whilst saving the Lutz address, the much more powerful SS mode will be enabled.
Waaaahhooo
May 24th, 2010 (9:06 pm)Many share this view. Although puzzling at face value. These extra few months of motor and battery stess testing are important to the final product.
Don’t laugh, but I do this same thing on the RC scale. Using vehicles of different weight with similar electric motors. My findings are that light vehicle weight and the complete sealing of the electric motor system works best. Combined with as light a battery as possible. And a charge that provides about 10-12 minutes of full power operation. At about 70 mph (to scale).
Nissan has the weight and battery size right in the Leaf. A little concerned with the lack of battery cooling. The Volt uses a sealed motor system which is oil cooled and lubricated. With internal and external temperature control assistance for the T battery.
An overheated electric motor. Or an electric motor system that allows for even the smallest bits of sand to enter. Will cycle hotter and hotter and eventually fail.
Give GM the Summer to make sure all is tight and ready. My guess is that the final month or two will focus on the ability of the Voltec system to prevent contaminant entry. Volt owners will enjoy a new level of motoring smoothness and fun.
=D-Volt
-1
May 24th, 2010 (9:22 pm)Oye…common GM, I’m sure a company that has the bright minds that create and about to introduce one of the most revolutionary vehicles in the history of automobiles will have enough wits to argue the case for such fuel economy and efficiency enhancing features.
If the EPA or CARB is worried about people using the mode to permanently stay in extended range mode, I hope they understand that not everyone that will buy a volt will charge the car every single night. Heck, I’ll go as far as to say extremely unfortunate souls may not get a chance to charge it at all (not having a garage, no access to public charging, etc.) Which means in those cases, the vehicle will operate in ER mode all the time. Thus it should be a requirement that the car meet emissions requirements in those instances.
If that is the case, then any feature that allow the car to operate in any way that it is capable of operating, as long as operation within those modes do not exceed emissions regulations, can not be regulated.
Case in point: most, if not all, cars have low gear drive options for towing and/or long hill climbs. Nothing is preventing anyone and everyone from operating their car in the low gear even when conditions that do not warrant it.
Soooo…since low drive gear features are allowed, it is arguable that features that will allow enhancements of fuel economy and efficiency must also be allowed.
Wake up GM!!
May 24th, 2010 (9:40 pm)Off topic, but Ford just announced plans to bring some of the components for their hybrids and future EVs in-house. To Michigan. They’re investing $135 million in component plants in the Detroit area. And they said they’re planning to hire 50 new engineers to work on hybrids and electric cars. (The plant investment means 170 new hourly jobs.)
Basically, it sounds like they’re really serious about EVs.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/24/ford-investing-in-e-v-development-in-michigan/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704113504575264793995928642.html?mod=WSJ_business_whatsNews
+2
May 24th, 2010 (9:51 pm)Off Topic, and sorry if this is redundant. I see on Hybrid Cars website that an early rapid charger, able to supply about 50 kw has been installed between Sacramento and Frisco. In thinking about this, California has about 2500 miles of Interstate Highways, so if you put a rapid charging station every 35 miles or so, it would take about 100 charging stations. Now a charging station next to a six lane each way Interstate would need several “pumps” but ones in rural areas, two lanes each way, might only need 4 or 5 Pumps. If we say an average of ten pumps, then it would take about 1000 chargers, at say $50,000 per pump to replace the vaporware infrastructure in California. So for less than 1 billion we could cover the West coast. Seems do-able to me.
May 24th, 2010 (10:12 pm)*Outstanding* news! Thanks for the links.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:57 pm)Tag, I’ve been thinking about this for quite a while, your post brought back the thought. I didn’t know that any terrain GPS program was out there for a driver.
I think it would work great in the Volt.
Forget the mountain or hold mode, just pick economy, or sport. Let the GPS do the rest. Here’s one example:
The Volt will ask you 3 questions.
“Will you be traveling more than 40 miles today?” (substitute 40 for whatever range the battery has when you get in)
Answer “nope”, then go gas free!!
Answer “yup”, then get the next question.
“Can you please tell me where you’re going?” (how many times do you get into a car and NOT know where you’re going?)
Answer the car please. (maybe OnStar will offer turn-by-turn)
“Where will you recharge?”
The usual answer will be at home but if you can recharge at work or while shopping, please tell your car. The battery will be fully discharged (down to 30%) when you get there.
Let the Volt automatically configure the best use of all of the drivetrain. It will know terrain, highway or city driving, and traffic. Accelerate on electric, cruise on ICE, or whatever is optimum for the situation. I’ll bet the Volt will be able to return better fuel economy than any static mode you can pick! You get the most out of the battery and don’t need to remember to release any mode!
If you skip the questions you can either pick a stored route or drive in standard EPA mode: battery first then ICE.
I would like to assume that the EPA gives the Volt 2 sets of ratings, one for EV only and one for ICE only. It will be nice to actually get better mileage than the EPA for once.
May 24th, 2010 (11:19 pm)Haha, nope, I have never heard that!
May 24th, 2010 (11:39 pm)If there’s no regulatory requirement for charge hold mode, I don’t forsee many instances where I would chose to use it. It seems in most situations it’s counterproductive.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (11:41 pm)If there’s no regulatory requirement for charge hold mode, I don’t foresee many instances where I would chose to use it. It seems in most situations it’s counterproductive.
May 24th, 2010 (11:47 pm)Sorry for late response. GM ‘Perfect Delivery’ only applies to New Cars. So I understand why the misunderstanding.
May 25th, 2010 (12:04 am)That is a nonsensical gauge. The IRS has the power to do all sorts ofthings that the private sector can’t (THANK GOD!).
The IRS can empty any bank account that it chooses too, no court order needed. It is amazing how well they can collect with that kind of authority.
May 25th, 2010 (1:41 am)I am disappointed that the “hold” feature will not be available. I see this feature benefitting long distance driving where one does not know how far another gas station is or if a gas station is open for business , say late after 2:00AM (driving in Texas, or the strip between New Mexico and Arizona, etc.). Also the “hold” feature would be great when one is low on funds (day before payday) and you only have enough money to buy gas for only two-thirds of the trip and you want to hold the battery charge for the last minute (as insurance to get home or to your destination)…but I guess everyone that buys a Volt will always have enough money for gas. Of course, there are the (rare) power outages, i.e. California brownouts, floods, tornadoes, etc.
I understand GM and the EPA, but for emergency sake, make this option/feature available!!!
May 25th, 2010 (2:11 am)Has anybody an idea how to enforce if the Volt powers on the ICE in a zero emission zone?
thanks
May 25th, 2010 (5:22 am)I’m glad to see somebody mention some stations needing 4 or 5 “pumps”. A 15 minute charge could take an hour and a half if 4 or 5 people are in line ahead of you. With an ICE you just go to the next station, not an option with a BEV.
-1
May 25th, 2010 (5:23 am)-1 for the unforgivable city name slur. -2 (if I could) for the sarcasm.
May 25th, 2010 (5:33 am)I really don’t understand this. You want to run out of gas sooner because you don’t know where the next open gas station is? Or you want to buy gas earlier because you aren’t sure you will have enough money to pay for it?
May 25th, 2010 (5:53 am)Yep – congestion charge per day is set to rise to £10… but they won’t know if you’re using the setting or not – for all they know you could run on electrciity in the country and be on petrol (gasoline) when you get to London… most people won’t care… many Joe average’s won’t even remember to press the button probably… and “many” women will just do a mime of it ‘shooting over their heads’ when anyone tries to explain it to them. Also if the noise of the gasoline engine is pretty insignificant many drivers won’t notice what they’re running on – especially over the blare of the radio and the traffic noise!!
Too many settings – and yes, buyers are going to be confused… not us, but everyday people… and their wives. Lets assume lowest common denominator here!!
May 25th, 2010 (6:00 am)Mark Yates, # 148.
£10 per day? Good grief that is a lot of money.
Are you saying it doesn’t matter if you are running in EV mode or not, you still have to
pay £10?
May 25th, 2010 (6:20 am)My *current* GPS tells me changes in elevation as they occur, but doesn’t have the map elevations programmed into memory the way the trucker’s system does. The major benefit for big trucks is that it’s integrated right into the drive system so that it adjusts speed to anticipate big changes in elevation, etc and that they are generally on a fairly direct route such as an interstate, but I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be just as beneficial to a Volt in the manner you suggest (and many others!). Amazing times.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 25th, 2010 (8:18 am)From Tagamet:
“My *current* GPS tells me changes in elevation as they occur, but doesn’t have the map elevations programmed into memory the way the trucker’s system does.”
I just picked up a Tom Tom after checking out a few other brands (I drive for a living now). DeLorme mapping and receivers have been the best outside of the car GPS. Which one for the car has elevation information?
I’m curious about what programming direction Posawatz has in mind for the Volt. Are the ideas being held back for EPA certification and marketing considerations? How automated vs driver selectable can other options be? Wouldn’t the time to get those ideas out there be yesterday?
The transparent development of the Volt has quite a few benefits, use them.
May 25th, 2010 (8:37 am)Re: Van #136 “Off Topic, and sorry if this is redundant. I see on Hybrid Cars website that an early rapid charger, able to supply about 50 kw has been installed between Sacramento and Frisco. In thinking about this, California has about 2500 miles of Interstate Highways, so if you put a rapid charging station every 35 miles or so, it would take about 100 charging stations.”
+1 for poking fun at daytime charging.
Improve the grid first, then consider fast charge. Off peak and EREV is the way to go. Otherwise tow your own generator, darn it!
May 25th, 2010 (10:45 am)Regardless of what the EPA may think, I believe the driver of the Volt should be able to decide what mode to operate in. It is a personal decision based on the facts of his driving plan for the trip. The EPA does not know enough about it to make a decision. Let them test the Volt and place mileage figures for it based on the “normal” driving patterns of the vast majority of Volt drivers (or expected drivers, since there are not actually any now). But allow the mode to be selected as needed based on the driver’s determination. I can see where I would want to burn gas now and save the battery for later. It is a good tool to have and the option should be on the very first Volt. IMO.
May 25th, 2010 (12:10 pm)I don’t understand why EPA or CARB should have any more trouble with a manual CS override than they do for an manual override of an automatic transmission overdrive. My understanding of the EPA Auto Transmission overdrive setting rules is that it must automatically default back to “ON” (better fuel economy) after turning the ignition “off” and back “on”; Specific driver intervention is required to activate the override, by default.
May 25th, 2010 (1:19 pm)So, if mountain mode raises the recharge setpoint, would the EV mode decrease it I wonder? In that case, they might not want it in the US because of the battery lifespan decrease that would cause. I don’t know if they have the same warranty targets in Europe as they do in the US, but I would think that would be an equally important reason.