Terri Quigley and the Volt
The nearly four years it is taking for the Volt to go from concept to retail delivery has seemed painstakingly slow for a good reason, GM is being painstakingly careful to get the car just right. As has been pointed out Nissan is getting an early rush of publicity and goodwill from early adopters, but GM is in it for the long haul massaging a very complex vehicle into perfection. They will ramp up slowly and gradually so that the cars behave perfectly and so that the consumer purchasing and driving experiences are flawless.
This pressure for perfection in the Volt weighs heavily not just on the minds of engineers and executives, but the entire company, the state of Michigan, and according a soulful report in the Associated Press, the entire auto industry.
The 22 year veteran GM autoworker Steve Purcnell who is building pre-production Volts in the Detroit-Hamtrack plant feels the pressure.
“If this doesn’t fly, what’s left for GM?” asks Purcnell. “Wall Street is going to say, ‘We knew they couldn’t dig themselves out of the hole.’”
As such, Purcnell and his coworkers are putting more intensity and effort into this car than any before it. ”I don’t want to say that we worked harder on this,” he said. “I think we worked a lot smarter. I mean everybody was on their ‘A’ game. … It was, ‘We want to make sure we’re perfect.’”
“We know the Volt is the last hurrah for GM,” he added. “It’s either do or die.”
This intense goal of achieving perfection reverberates through a Michigan now laden with crushed hopes and foreclosure signs. ”Detroit,” says Mike Smith, head of a Detroit library, “has two choices: Remake itself. Or die on the vine. We HAVE to reinvent ourselves.”
Even Smith knows the Volt is the key to this process. ”If you’re going to have an electric car and if the Volt turns out to be the leader of the pack, think what that means in sales, prestige, in reputation,” said Smith. “This one is symbolic in the sense that it’s going to speak to the prowess of the American auto industry — and GM itself.”
“The Volt is going to be the most watched production in the history of autos,” he added.
Detroit Hamtramck plant manager Terri Quigley is also acutely aware of the importance of the job she is doing.
“We have to execute flawlessly,” she says. “A lot of pressure? Yeah. … We’ve got one chance to do this right. My work force has heard me say this more than once: The world is really going to be watching.”
GM has poured $336 million of retooling investment into Hamtramck to prep it to build the Volt. That’s part of an even greater $700 million in total investments including the battery plant and the Flint engine plant GM has bet on the Volt.
The Volt is the front end of a great wave of advanced automotive technology investments coming form many sources and companies to rebuild Michigan and its long legacy of automotive manufacturing.
“It’s the beginning,” says Dayne Walling says, Mayor of Flint, “of a long transition from a Rust Belt city to one that’s more green, has more technology and is more relevant to the 21st century.”
Auto worker Purcnell is optimistic about that day a few short months from now when the first saleable Volt rolls off the line. ”There’s going to be a feeling of pride when it’s running off the line,” he says. “We know it’s going to be right.”
However, 64 year old 40 year veteran auto worker George McGregor, who is president of UAW Local 22 in Detroit, is a bit more apprehensive. ”Americans love power,” he says. “Fast cars. You understand? They LOOVVE large cars. Small cars, efficient cars? We’re being forced into that now. If … gas was reasonable, it would be SUVs and large cars.”
He supposes public taste may be shifting and that people might actually want electric cars. ”Is this what the public really wants?” he asks. ”Hopefully,” he says softly. “Hopefully.”
Source (AP)
+15
May 23rd, 2010 (7:47 am)Taking the article as a whole, I have one thought, it does look like they are going to build them.
My second thought is, they seem pretty nervous about the whole project.
+36
May 23rd, 2010 (7:47 am)Well, if any GM employees are reading this (& we know you do), just know we’re rooting for you and we can’t wait to get our Volts! November can’t get here soon enough.
+17
May 23rd, 2010 (7:50 am)Although this article talks about getting the Volt right, there is no mention of limited production quantities or only 8000 Volts in the first year.
In fact, one quote I find interesting:
“People in this area are looking for anything to say Michigan and the car industry can make it,” he says. “That’s the hope factor that drives a lot of us in Detroit. What if there are suddenly orders for 100,000 Volts? Now we’re talking.”
There doesn’t seem to be any negative attitude about “too bad we can only build 8000 units in year one” or “even with 100,000 orders, we’re limited to 60,000 per year”.
This tells me that although the first few months will be a ramp up process, “if the orders come, they will build it”.
+21
May 23rd, 2010 (7:51 am)Wow. I had no idea that the line folks think this is their last hope and at the same time such a crap-shoot.
Hang in there guys and hang on to your hat. The Volt will have so much demand that you won’t be able to keep up!
+6
May 23rd, 2010 (7:53 am)Terri is very attractive!!
+12
May 23rd, 2010 (7:56 am)Saw this article yesterday and it pretty well sums up the pressure GM and many in the State of Michigan are under with the development of the VOLT. GM has many areas in Michigan that will be producing the parts for this car. All of those involved in the production want the VOLT to be the game changer and bring credibility back to GM and the State. They know things will not be like the old days but all do want to see GM and Michigan back in the game as leaders and innovators. I liked the comment about everyone bringing their “A Game”
The VOLT is a game changer with its innovation and extended range option and it is the electric car I want to buy.
I sure hope we will see a 24/7 assembly line running to meet the expected demand
+14
May 23rd, 2010 (7:57 am)If one of the most experienced car manufacturing companies in the World spends 4 years and all of the resources mentioned developing a new car, why in Heaven’s name would you think it might not be as close to perfect as possible? The best way we can help save GM is by buying lots of Volts, give us the chance to do that!
+14
May 23rd, 2010 (8:01 am)This car IS the furture!! Its either make or break for the entire GM work force. Working there first hand you feel the urgancy of getting it perfect in everyway!! I’m on board, I WANT one!! I am wishing GM the very best in a flawless launch!!
+23
May 23rd, 2010 (8:05 am)Driving the Volt on March 13th did absolutely confirm to me that *perfection* is indeed the top priority of GM. That one single drive around that parking lot here in Austin was the proof of this at the level of highest technical refinement I’d ever experienced. I know what perfection is, and is not, in autos because my job regards being required to determine the causes of systems faults to technicians for even the highest-end luxury cars, so I know how everything out here drives. Period.
You see, even the most common high end luxury cars that boast perfectionism in their appointments and function, do not come close to the Volt electrified drive, because there are always internal combustion sensations that we have all become used to as normal.
The absence of that harshness in that Volt drive, has no real set of words in the human language yet.
If you ever had a highly positive dream where you excitedly flew through the air at will, that is what it is like to drive the Volt.
A few years ago, I suggested that 5.1 surround sound be used with hi def video cam to somehow commercially-represent the Volt. That would not have worked of course, because no sound is made in the first place.
We will all have a good laugh with/for/at/around and over the cynics.
+18
May 23rd, 2010 (8:08 am)It definitely looks like all the dominoes are set up. Now GM just needs to execute and continue to execute the plan to build these cutting edge, reliable vehicles. Then as Bob said in the interview, GM can ramp up to meet the demand.
Buckle your seat-belts, folks. It’s going to be quite a ride.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 23rd, 2010 (8:14 am)#1 and #2, I agree completely.
+22
May 23rd, 2010 (8:21 am)Dan, I agree completely! And I hope everyone reading this blog listens carefully to what you’re saying because of your broad (and in-depth) experience with ALL cars, domestic & foreign! And I also agree that my test drive of the Volt was the most remarkable, satisfying and surprising experience of its kind I’ve ever had —and I’m a performance car guy who once owned a powerful Z-28 (the one used exclusively for several years as the IROC —International Race of Champions— vehicle driven by all IROC racers).
On the matter of perfection, it’s been central to my entire professional career in the US space program. It doesn’t come easy, but it’s absolutely necessary whether you’re putting men on the moon, on the International Space Station or if you’re leading a global revolution in automotive design. My suggestion to George McGregor, president of UAW Local 22 in Detroit quoted as expressing doubt in Lyle’s introduction, is to test drive a Volt. Put it through its paces as Dan Petit and I have done, and I guarantee you’ll quickly change your mind!
+14
May 23rd, 2010 (8:31 am)You know, I continue to be surprised by how impatient we have become as a society. I found the reaction to yesterday’s blog post amusing…it reminded me of my 5 year old daughter waiting for Christmas this year. “But why can’t I open my presents now, I don’t want to wait?!?” Yet when Christmas finally came, it was worth the wait and all was forgiven. It was, “The best day ever!” J
I also had to smile at George McGregor’s comment that, “Americans love power, fast cars. You understand? They LOOVVE large cars. Small cars, efficient cars? We’re being forced into that now.”
High efficiency vehicles don’t have to be small and underpowered…that’s 20th Century thinking. You can have a powerful, efficient, large vehicle by using a combination of electric (E-REV) drive trains, lightweight carbon continuous fiber space frames, non-continuous fiber carbon body panels and an aerodynamic shape. With tougher fuel efficiency standards possible coming in 2017, I am hopefully that automakers will finally invest in and learn to build with advanced composites that up to now have only been used in the aircraft industry. First in a high performance, high efficiency Cadillac, and then eventually in vehicles like the Volt.
+9
May 23rd, 2010 (8:34 am)All this perfection and flawless talk makes be a bit apprehensive. Everything made by man has flaws and can break. I expect the Volt to be one of the finest vehicles ever produced by GM but perfect? Not hardly.
May 23rd, 2010 (8:44 am)Without a directive to put a man on the moon before 1970, when would NASA have decided Apollo hardware was “perfect” enough? Say the Russians did it in 1980. Would we have done it in 1981?
May 23rd, 2010 (8:44 am)From the previous article:
Then we can agree to disagree.
Remember that we’re not talking retail prices here. I’m talking about what it costs GM.
My $2000 estimate includes the exhaust system and fuel system. You still need a cooling system for the battery. The water pump runs on electricity, it’s not connected to the ICE.
A regular generator costs around $30. For a 53kW generator, at similar mass unit volumes (i.e. quantities in the millions), I would guess around $250. Now account for the fact that it’s still a specialty item, and I would estimate around $500 for generator.
I suspect GM is padding up the Volt’s price for early adopters. Many people will pay more to be the first one on the block to own a Volt.
+5
May 23rd, 2010 (8:46 am)At the end, Reply to McGregor (President od theUAW Local 22), you just don’t get it do you? Good, we are only asking you to build it.
To GM, give him one of the Volt to shut him up.
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (8:49 am)The Volt may not be as bad as a crap shoot. But it still is a high risk/high reward situation. It will be 3-5 years before anyone knows if the experiment is truely successful. The technology, when mass produced could fail. It is much easier to build several hundred test cars to perfection and have them tested by drivers that know how to drive and take care of cars. Once the general public with drivers who treat the car like a rental car on business trips, get their hands on it, bad things can happen. Also, once people evaluate the value proposition on personal level, this car will not make sense with gas prices as is. Bottom line, is that you can buy a many Honda’s, Toyota’s, Ford’, GM’s, etc that get great gas milage at significantly lower cost. If you do a cost analysis, you do not save money on gas. The group of people that want this car is not the mass market. It ranges from Republicans that are interested in getting off oil for engergy security reasons, Liberals that hate big oil and believe this vehicle will put a dagger in their heart, and finally the gear heads that like cool technology. But the majority of the country is not in that group. They want the best value proposition. Why is Walmart doing so well if it is so bad? Because the masses believe it is the best value. If you notice, it is all the same people on these electric car sites. It can be easy to believe the rest of the country believes the same as this group. In reality these sites only represent a small portion of the mass poplulation.
+4
May 23rd, 2010 (8:54 am)George, focus on the car man…you’re getting distracted again.
+5
May 23rd, 2010 (8:57 am)Jimza Skeptik said:
If you notice, it is all the same people on these electric car sites. It can be easy to believe the rest of the country believes the same as this group. In reality these sites only represent a small portion of the mass poplulation.
<b. This is exactly why we need a Volt in every Chevrolet showroom with a 230 mpg EPA sticker on the window. Then we can stop speculating how the masses will think.
+4
May 23rd, 2010 (9:00 am)This has a lot more to do with terrorism and the economy than gas prices.
If you haven’t already, check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFJH0mimzqk
I consider this a must-see for anyone who frequents this site.
May 23rd, 2010 (9:10 am)Lol. Carburetors are only used on lawnmowers and other small engines at this point. Last automotive carburetor I worked on was a 1970 Toronado.
May 23rd, 2010 (9:25 am)Loboc said:
Last automotive carburetor I worked on was a 1970 Toronado.
Bet you wish you still had that car!
The Toroado was introduced in 1965 I think. I wonder if the 1965 model Toronado was perfect? I don’t remember anybody asking for a front wheel drive car, either.
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (9:28 am)GREAT VIDEO from DAVE G (comment #21):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFJH0mimzqk
THIS IS A MUST SEE !!!
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (9:35 am)I’d rather see that Volt go to Lyle — for his contribution to making the Volt a reality!
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (9:38 am)Compressed air cars?? lol.
As usual with the uninformed, Volt is lumped in with hybrid plug-in cars. GM has a herculean task ahead to position the Volt properly.
I agree with the point of specialty cars like specialty athletic shoes. For a lot of people, a BEV-100 is a real alternative. In my neighborhood alone, there are literally thousands of older folks that drive maybe 10 miles a day. As the population ages, this number will only increase.
/note to self. Get some Converse All-Stars.
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (9:39 am)All that assumes that the Voltec intellectual properties are worth little to nothing. The best answer to that is: “OK, here’s your $500 generator, now, go build yourself the rest of the Volt!” The whole is always infinitely greater than the wholesale-cost-sum of the intellectually-integrated parts nowadays, from the non-technical person’s (or even the highly-technical person’s) capability to build themselves a Volt.
GM is ***earning*** their money.
Picking apart costing for individual components isn’t really a comparable approach for this unique automotive design at all, as it is to a great extent for, say, a procurement official who’s comparing the costs for job bidding from many contractors who (if they could) completely *and equally* understand the exact specifications, for example, of a building contract where industry standards are well known and published. Otherwise, TMC would not have done anything with Tesla.
It’s normal that the less technical someone is, the less comprehensive they are able to be in the valuing of the intellectual properties and capabilities **value** of anything or anyone else, unless they are shown/experience/prove-out for themselves the completely-finished product live and in person.
May 23rd, 2010 (9:40 am)The thinking that electric cars cannot be large and powerful SUVs is silly. It is all about the energy storage capacity. GM claimed that with lead acid and NiMH batteries in the EV 1, the limited range and long charging time caused folks to shy away. Now the Leaf has a similar range to the EV-1 yet they expect it to sell very well. Nissan is betting that the EV-IT navigation system that provides rapid recharge locations within range will address the issue without an on board generator. I think this may be true, once the second generation battery provides something close to the claimed 186 mile range. Time will tell.
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (9:41 am)1991 Hyundai Exel still had carburetors…. on their 1.5 L engine… One of the last I think but that was a car that could be had for $7000 and no options…
I had one for 4 years and 188,000 KMS and it was trouble free…And that was when Hyundai was building crappy cars.
+4
May 23rd, 2010 (9:48 am)A 43kw whole-house CNG generator is ~$15,000 installed. I got several quotes.
http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-Generators-Standby-Generators/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xggZb8xr/R-100466728/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
This is exactly why I want V2H and/or V2G.
+4
May 23rd, 2010 (9:51 am)I really appreciate the efforts of everyone trying to make this Volt as perfect as is possible. Will there be problems? Of course! But, if will not be for the lack of effort.
Like I said in the previous topic, I’m just going to wait patiently in line for my opportunity to purchase a Volt. When that time comes, you will see the biggest
on my face for all to see!
+10
May 23rd, 2010 (10:03 am)Dan,
I fully agree that it sounds like the Volt is perfect from a driving point of view. Perfection, however, means much more than that. Every 10 – 20 dollar part in the car must be perfect too. A failed relay, or circuit somewhere that disables a function will be a problem that requires a recall. This is the type of thing that can soil the Volts reputation, not the initial quality and driving experience.
I truly hope GM is testing all of these things for reliability and that the final parts used are high quality.
On a side note, I find it depressing that GM is pinning so much on the Volt. This is just a small part of the company. I know the Volt is important but I would argue that their entire lineup is important at this point. I would hope that they hit some home runs with some other vehicles in their lineup and make some money and get some new customers there too.
I was just in china for a while and saw many many new Chevy Cruze models driving around. This is a nice looking little car and I hope they do well with this in the US. My new Equinox has been Flawless so far (only 9000 miles). I hope GM retains focus on these types of high volume vehicles too. These need to be great cars to re-build GMs reputation.
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (10:09 am)I totally agree and look forward to those becoming reality, BUT first let’s get Gen I’s wheels on the road, and in significant numbers.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+5
May 23rd, 2010 (10:11 am)From the article… ”Americans love power,” he says. “Fast cars. You understand? They LOOVVE large cars. Small cars, efficient cars? We’re being forced into that now. If … gas was reasonable, it would be SUVs and large cars.”
I think the future still is electric cars. As batteries and the motor technologies evolve, large and powerful electrics will be possible and they will be desired.
Luxury cars will benefit from the quiet torque and low center of gravity offered by electrics.
Think of the towing capacity of trucks with electric motors. Pulling that trailer with electric drive will benefit from the massive torque potential of electrics.
Electrics may be associated with small cars right now but that is just the beginning.
+7
May 23rd, 2010 (10:17 am)To quote a family member who lived and worked in the Michigan auto industry before getting laid off and moving out of state: “Michigan is the next West Virginia.” I think everyone is pulling for that state to make a come back, but to hear it expressed with such passion hits home with me.
Hearing how cities like Flint and now Detroit have plans to annex parts of the city back to rural status makes me imagine a day when grandpa is driving his grandson around in a Volt through the countryside saying, “Yep, when I was your age, this was all houses.”
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (10:18 am)Hopefully, GM will provide an online sign up list to really test the interest (like Nissan’s Leaf site).
+6
May 23rd, 2010 (10:21 am)I feel like Lyle posted this article because like me he’s a little tired of hearing the constant posts saying they aren’t gonna make enough Volts. First off a year isn’t a long time when your trying to gather real world information and make sure you give a lot of attention to what GM feels are very important markets. You have the government in D.C. Who could make or break this car with new incentives and basically the celebs and ev enthusiasts who for years have bashed GM in California. I like this limited market strategy for 1 year. Treat those people right and learn what will be important for other dealers in the rest of the country year two or three. Year 2 production really ramps up. I just wish people would stop complaining put there names on a list at a dealership and wait one more year. I talked to a friend who’s a salesman in Arkansas and he said 500 bucks is thier volt reservation requirement. Same as the Camaro. So for 500 bucks you might get the first one in your city. Go put down your money!!
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (10:34 am)GM Please give George McGregor a test drive in a Volt.
Maybe he never had an electric car racing track as a kid.
NPNS!
May 23rd, 2010 (10:44 am)Like, Like, Like “works for me!” and I will take a test drive any time :+}
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (10:45 am)That has to change… like you say it has to be associated with luxury and fast cars.. and the high torque is well matched to trucks. Surprised no one has done an electric ultra high torque pick up truck yet.
A Voltec pick up with on-the-fly adaptable 4wd, ultra high torque, no transmission and an inverter able to power a house would be the ultimate manly toy. Come on GM, build a concept Voltec truck… Remy has the motors and generators already.
+4
May 23rd, 2010 (10:46 am)Getting the car right is crucial…
But they have already botched the introduction in my opinion.
NISSAN has beat them to the punch with a Price, a Reservation system, Detailed option listing, etc. The Chevy Dealers are still very much in the dark about the Volt as if it doesn’t exist.
Same as the Camaro, within months of introduction and there is a dearth of official information from GM about actually buying the car. You would think GM would learn from that experience, but apparently not.
May 23rd, 2010 (10:49 am)How is the mpg so far.. still good?.. I have seen some complaints in the web that it does not meet the EPA mpg numbers.
May 23rd, 2010 (10:56 am)The LEAF meets the needs of people that seldom drive long distances, and when they do they use their second LARGE car (or lease).. I know a lot of people in this situation.. I wince when I see that their cars NEVER reach full operating temperature because their commute is 2 miles away. This is really bad for an ICE.
A BEV for these people is perfect, never has to visit a greasy gas station and seldom (never) needs any maintenance. The looks of the LEAF may be a bigger factor affecting sales than the range.
-4
May 23rd, 2010 (10:56 am)The biggest reason the Volt has to be perfect is because GM decided to crush its predecessor and now GM has a huge image problem. It shows that GM, doesn’t care about the environment, doesn’t care about oil dependence, profit is our only goal attitude, and how customers care bout their cars is irrelevant. Electric cars don’t have to be perfect, they just have to be good. No gas car was ever sold as perfect. Today we have much better mechanisms to detect design flaws like the infamous Pinto gas tank. And laws that force automakers to take responsibility.
In spite of this some design problems do sneak through. The run away Prius syndrome for example. I repair electronics therefore I understand how complex systems can randomly go haywire. All it takes is a little glitch at the right time and a smooth running program is off executing garbage. They may never find how the glitch makes the car take at full speed. Since it is so random and equipping all of the cars with the necessary data logging equipment would be very expensive. Adding the logging equipment would change the operating environment thus the glitch may never happen again.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (11:07 am)Aye, MacGregor! ”Americans love power,” he says. “Fast cars. You understand? They LOOVVE large cars. Small cars, efficient cars? We’re being forced into that now. If … gas was reasonable, it would be SUVs and large cars.”
This “for-compacts-only” shibboleth about EREV’s needs to die and die fast!
The Volt weighs more than my 1991 Park Avenue and considerably more than the Taurus or LeSabre from the late 80′s. The Voltec drive train puts out comparable power to the 3.8L V6′s plus it has the ludicrous torque advantage of the electric motor.
Now I think the Volt is in a Cruze shell due to GM wanting something salvageable from their capital outlay if it fails. This is not a slam, we all agree if the GMAC/Ditech people showed half the prudence of the car folks, GM would be better off. Also, the weight problem, IMHO, has more to do with 2 decades of cheap fuel and public taste for the BMW 3xx ride. The base Cruze outweighs my 87 Delta, which outweighed the 87 Taurus.
So, the main story in the good news coming out of Volt testing is that the drive train is moving this 3500-lb car with efficiency and AUTHORITY, seemingly more so than one of those big 3.8 and transaxles from the late 80′s.
Surfing Greencarcongress it looks like the state-of-the-day Li-ion packs can get you either 30% more juice or less weight than what’s in the Volt. As for the Volt’s ICE genset, see above for the Cruze-cloning. It’s certainly not optimized for the single-speed role. BTW, how cool does the Bladon-jet powered Jag sound?
With gensets and batteries in a phase of rapid improvement, (and shrinkage) they already have the capacity to power the bulk of passenger cars. Furthermore, they should be easier to fit into existing car frames, since the components can be spread out and balanced.
As Tag’s tag emphasizes, getting the Volt out is the first most critical step. Once it is out, the logic of the EREV with its power, ease of adaption, and lack of dependence on a vaporware nationwide fast charge infrastructure should rapidly lead to an avalanche of followers.
From an earlier thread, my Park Avenue was the new nameplate on the large Buick. I want my next car to be an ELECTRA in name and drivetrain.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (11:12 am)Stop all this nonsense talk of perfection and get real about this.
The Volt needs a serious advertising campaign, like now.
The advertising has to emphasize just how much of a game changer the Volt is.
It must dispel the range anxiety that is the impediment for most consumers.
People need to know that this this car is the beginnings of personal transportation being free from dependence on foreign oil.
Now is the time to advertise GM…fugit inreparabile tempus.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (11:18 am)I will try to remember just how great it is going to be when Perfection gets here as I am looking at another year of Memorial weekend gas prices and reading about millions of barrels of crude sloshing around the Gulf of Mexico.
+5
May 23rd, 2010 (11:19 am)In the late 60s, Boeing Corporation was on the ropes.
They literally bet the farm and developed the 747.
I think we all know how the invention of that machine changed Boeing, the Northwest, the nation, and ultimately, it changed the world most of all.
Remember the beginning of Hawaii 5-0?
(GMVolt skews older, right?
The camera panning the curves of a Boeing 747 (?) was the visual definition of with-it-ness and modernity.
Substitute GM, Volt, and Michigan for Boeing, 747, and Washington and, IMHO, history will be repeated.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (11:19 am)AMEN!!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (11:26 am)One point I think is not being given sufficient consideration. When I hear about the Leaf my reaction is it’s just another battery powered electric car. In general it’s nothing new. A battery car works for a primary vehicle if you never travel further than it’s single charge range and never take a long road trip or vacation drive. So now maybe it’s a second car or go rent a car for longer trips. Early adopters can buy battery powered vehicles right now. The Leaf only adds to the available supply. The Volt is different in that it can be an ONLY car. If one has an average length commute and plug it in, you use little or no gasoline. It can go virtually anywhere a regular ICE car can. This is the thing that’s different even for early adopters. I’ve read blogs of the adventures of BEV owners squeaking out the last mile to get home. Finding outlets at destinations and surreptitiously topping off the battery or finding a place nice enough to let them charge up because it’s still a novelty and not a significant expense, yet. I’ve seen trailered APUs to turn a BEV into a sort of EREV.
The Leaf even if the best of its kind, is still a BEV. So what? It’s easy to engineer compared to a full integrated EREV. Except for plugging it in when you get home and unplugging it when you leave, the driver doesn’t have to do anything different. It acts like a normal car. Being an electric car is it’s secret identity. Nobody knows except the person paying the fuel bills.
May 23rd, 2010 (11:27 am)Yes – they should be ready for problems and prepared to get things right in the next year model. Taking a long time & putting enormous effort and over-thinking everything doesn’t always pay off. Just ask Microsoft about Vista.
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (11:29 am)Although I agree with you that GM needs to get going on *many* fronts, that doesn’t mean that setting and *keeping* the quality goals very high can be ignored. Set the bar at perfection! GM can multi-task, but all the ad campaigns and consumer education in the world will be worthless if the product itself doesn’t measure up. JMO,
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 23rd, 2010 (11:35 am)I argue they don’t even have to be particularly efficient if fuel is cheap. There was a time when most electricity came from hydro projects, this was clean low-cost electricity. The energy source was free and never-ending. Now our energy demands have exceeded this source of power and only now are we returning to free energy sources by solar cells, windmills, wave power and geothermal. All pollution free. The big hope is that these will eventually become cheap, but so far that is not true. Nuclear power was supposed to be the big energy replacement, but got de-railed because of high cost, complexity and radio-active waste taking 10,000 years to decay. Now as an act of desperation, we are returning to the old style nuclear reactor because it is a well known and doesn’t require any research or new regulatory rules. This is a mistake, we should not continue to create more radio-active waste. There is a better answer in the Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactor. Successfully run for 5 years at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in the 1960s. This uses cheap thorium, is self regulating and therefore inherently safe, does not require expensive enriched fuel and has no long term radio-active waste. This research was terminated because it was not suitable to build bombs. (I know some will argue it could be used to make bombs, but is much more difficult.) We need to promote a return to this low cost on-demand energy and finish the last few remaining research steps concerning vessel construction for longer life, i.e. greater than 30 years. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUeBSoEnRk
We could have low cost, pollution free, on-demand electricity if we want to. In fact I will argue that we have all the answers to our present difficulties regards finances, poverty, food for the world, but it will take major changes in our financial structure to bring this about and the people in control are happy with status quo.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (11:39 am)PS I know “time flies”, but we don’t want GM to “fugit” up!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 23rd, 2010 (11:43 am)I have no doubt that the VOLT ‘build quality’ will be as close to perfection as possible, but you are right. “Perception IS reality”. GM needs to send a VOLT to Road and Track, Car and Driver, MotorTrend, Jay Leno’s Garage and one to David Letterman immediately for review. (oh, and one of those preproduction models to my dealership to give test drives with) Letterman needs one so he can eat his words.
It is time to get the word out!
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (12:04 pm)+1 This cannot be over emphasized. WAKE UP AMERICA!!! we are committing suicide!
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (12:08 pm)Letterman is an idiot, and doesn’t deserve one. I think even most people who watch his show know that and laugh at him, not with him. His opinion is meaningless.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (12:09 pm)Vaporware national rapid charging infrastructure? I think the idea behind this construct is it will not develop anytime soon. Lets compare this with cell phone coverage. At first with few towers, you were pretty limited when and where you could talk. But folks bought them and clamored for more coverage. Various providers built towers and touted better coverage.
Will a similar thing happen with BEV’s and fast chargers? Perhaps not if driven only by the market, but the CARB could mandate a major effort.
May 23rd, 2010 (12:15 pm)Speaking of ‘Five-O’ — CBS is bringing it back: Http://Livefeed.hollywoodreporter.com/player.HTML then click tab for CBS for Hawaii Five-O intro and behind the scenes.
May 23rd, 2010 (12:36 pm)http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15136380?nclick_check=1
Interesting article in the San Jose Mercury News.
May 23rd, 2010 (12:38 pm)Rooster, I agree completely with your comments that EREVs don’t have to be small and less powerful. Many people do not yet understand the power and efficiency of electric drive, but they will in the future. Speaking of carbon-fiber composite technology for cars, BMW is currently planning to build a plant here in Washington State to fabricate such components for their future cars. Why here? The raw materials will be shipped in from Asia and manufacturing done using low-cost hydro power available in central Washington. The auto industry is definitely moving ahead with advanced technolgies for cars of the 21st century.
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (12:47 pm)I think this is the hope of the Volt supporters inside GM, and in fact you have to think that even those who are ready to dismiss the Volt and EREV technology would think it reasonable to make more if the demand was present.
However, you can’t turn production on like faucet, it takes years of planning. Hamtramck can’t handle more than 50,000 units a year, nor does there seem to be much more battery capacity in the LG Chem battery plant. So you have to start asking: “If demand is what we think it will be, and if GM can sell 150,000 Volts a year, where and how will they make them?” Happy talk about “if demand is there we’ll build more” doesn’t answer this question. It would be nice to know that there is a real plan in place.
May 23rd, 2010 (12:52 pm)You guys may think this is crazy but could you be more specific in what you experienced? Not questioning the conclusion just interested in some insight into how you can describe the experience.
May 23rd, 2010 (1:00 pm)I’m not sure it’s that people undervalue the intellectual property, I think it’s that they underestimate how difficult it will be to do some things. That’s probably saying the same thing in a different way, but from the actor’s part it’s probably more realistic.
Everyone always grossly underestimates the cost of new projects. It’s just life. The rule of thumb is to tell the people doing the estimating to assume the highest cost and to then multiply their estimate by 2 pi. Even then you’re usually too optimistic.
Even savvy estimators can be off when faced with new technologies. Bob Lutz has said many times that even the studied estimates of how much the Volt would cost to produce proved “wildly optimistic”. And that’s for a company which has built a few cars!
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (1:14 pm)I have followed the mileage for each tank over the 9000 mile life of the car so far (my wife thinks I am nuts). I have also played around a little with driving styles and can see an impact with temperature.
The short conclusions so far are.
1. Driving at 60-65 on fairly level ground easily results in the 32 mpg rated mpg.
2. If you get into the gas pedal and start hitting high rpm numbers the mileage drops off quickly.
3. I can drive 30 miles to work leaving very early in the morning (no traffic) and get 36 mpg driving 40-55 mph and hitting only a few red lights. I have done this many times.
4. Stop and go traffic kills the mileage on this thing. It is a very heavy vehicle (~4000 Lbs with driver).
5. Short trips in very cold weather result in 20-24 mpg results.
6. I am averaging about 28 mpg over the life of the car (30 by the trip computer).
7. trip computer is about 2 mpg optimistic, I calculate mileage myself.
I am conscious of the mileage and drive accordingly. I can easily see where this thing would not meet mileage expectations for some because it is easy to drive the mileage down with a moderately heavy foot or with a lot of short trips.
-3
May 23rd, 2010 (1:23 pm)“However, 64 year old 40 year veteran auto worker George McGregor, who is president of UAW Local 22 in Detroit, is a bit more apprehensive”
Thats because he is old school and part of why GM died.
The shedding of SUV’s should make it clear to anyone with doubt.
I hope this clown is out of the picture.
GM you can do it!
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (1:35 pm)Our society is price driven. Price is the number one factor for most Americans. It sounds good on paper to always buy what is cheap, but I think often the price does not accurately the real cost. Most Americans prefer cheap unhealthful foods over more expensive healthful food. Same thing for cars and other items. I try to buy American, but sometimes it is almost impossible since China makes so much stuff.
Several years ago, I owned a Camry, then when it came time to buy a new car, I decided to support American and buy a Saturn despite the reliability of my Camry. Ashamed to say, but boy did I regret that decision. It was the worst car I ever owned as I poured thousands more dollars to keep it going until I could afford to buy another car. My next car was/is a Sonata with a 10 year/100,000 miles warranty. I wanted reliability because I hated getting stuck on the side of the road with a broken car. I plan to buy a new car in about 1.5-2 years. I want a Volt so bad, I can taste it. I really hope GM can pull off a QUALITY/RELIABLE car. I don’t mind paying more for quality, but if I pay more, I want RELIABLE transportation.
I rather GM take time putting out a QUALITY/RELIABLE car than push out some piece of crap too early.
GM PLEASE PUT OUT A QUALITY VOLT.
May 23rd, 2010 (1:39 pm)I’m very technical, and I agree with your point on IP.
My original point was that a BEV-100 version of the Volt would be significantly more expensive than the current EREV-40 Volt.
And similarly, I believe an EREV-40 version of the Nissan Leaf would be significantly less expensive the current BEV-100 Leaf.
In other words, I believe the cost of a larger battery pack is more than the cost of the range extender. That’s why we are debating the cost of the ICE and generator.
May 23rd, 2010 (1:44 pm)Sounds fantastic! I think most people, including most concerned about managments commitment via production, are content with the first model year production goals. It is the second year and subsequent years thereafter as well as proliferating Voltec that are a concern. Other than some older comments from GM that production could be ramped up to 50K/yr during the 2nd year, can you point to a source? This is what I have been looking for and, I think, many other people have been also.
May 23rd, 2010 (1:51 pm)To GM’s credit the driving tests have been all raves. I believe Terri’s line can and will meet a quality goal of six-nines. (Under a minute downtime per year. five-nines ain’t bad – less than a minute per month) But is that enough? Imagine a car with upscale trim at $25,000. When a buyer selects VOLT, its a very nice car – at any money.
GM must ensure it takes all the risks and the buyer takes zero. A ten year battery warranty. Sure. Qualify it. But don’t insult the buyers’ intelligence. Shoot for a resell value in 2015 of 80%. Security by OnStar. GPS by Google. And an option for a twelve galoon tank. A winner for many years to come.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (1:54 pm)The argument can be and has been made that a BEV Volt with equivalent range to the Leaf could be made for less than the 40AER EREV Volt. You could try to make a counterargument till you are blue in the face but never get anywhere because you don’t know the real installed component costs any more than the rest of us. Logic speaks against your cost argument, however. There are just too many elements to the range extension, including development costs, to believe $2K. Perhaps on an individual raw individual component production cost they could be close to $2k less the generator motor & power controls, but I cannot see how the all in cost for everything is $2K. This would be less than $1/piece (broken down to the elementary components: screws, gaskets, nuts, wassher, heads, rods, etc, etc), correct?
May 23rd, 2010 (1:54 pm)In the U.S., I would agree that compressed air cars don’t make much sense. We can afford something better, and we have the infrastructure to support it.
But when you look at peak oil and rising demand, remember that India and China are the fastest growing markets. Compressed air cars could make some sense here.
May 23rd, 2010 (2:23 pm)Then we can disagree agreeably.
This is a good point.
However, we do have a pretty good quote from CPI’s CEO on the Volt’s battery pack at $8000, which corresponds to $1000/available kWh, or $500/total kWh. Using that figure I calculated a Volt BEV-100 battery pack would cost around $14,250 ($500/total kWh x 28 kWh). That’s $6250 more than the Volt’s EREV-40 battery pack. So if the range extender costs less than $6250, then a BEV-100 Volt would cost more than the EREV-40 Volt.
Now some people have argued that the figure of $500/total kWh for the battery pack is low. If that’s true, then the difference in battery pack costs would be even more than $6250.
GM has been building gas engines for many years, so I’m assuming they have figured out how to build these inexpensively. Same goes for exhaust systems, fuel systems, and cooling systems.
Obviously if you go to an auto parts store, you’ll pay a huge overhead for each individual part. But when you look at GM’s cost, and consider they buy 100,000 or more at a time, many of these individual parts cost pennies.
The big unknown is the 53kW generator.
My problem is that people aren’t even attempting to do any sort of math and just assuming that since a BEV is less complicated, it must be less expensive. That kind of emotional logic drives me crazy.
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (2:47 pm)They can’t turn on production like a faucet, but, they can switch models on the same line mid-stream. Need more Volts? Build less of something else. Just change the mixture of hot and cold.
We are at least a year, maybe more, before full production. If Volt hits big, many facilities can be re-worked during the normal model year switch. Remember, Volt’s 2011 model year is a mid-year (or at least later than normal) start. It’s more like a 2011+1/2 model year.
You guys are watching that PPV video too much. Actual production moves much faster.
Logistics hasn’t been a weakness at GM other than maybe too much capacity. These guys build a million cars for lunch. I have every confidence that they know how to crank up the volume.
+4
May 23rd, 2010 (2:49 pm)Lyle’s intro says,”…GM is in it for the long haul massaging a very complex vehicle into perfection”.
I want to comment that the Volt’s DEVELOPMENT PROCESS has indeed been very complex. But the complexity largely resides in the control electronics & PCMs in the car and should be very easily replicated in variations of the Voltec drive train. The actual number of parts in a Volt is not dramatically different from that in a conventional ICE car. But the number of parts subject to wearout has been dramatically REDUCED: no (or very few) belts to replace; brake pads will require replacement MUCH less often than on an ICE car; oil changes and other engine-related maitenance will be very infrequent by contrast to ICE cars.
In short, wiper blades, tires, 12V lead-acid accessory batteries are about all that will require replacement as often as on conventional cars. So from the standpoint of a Volt owner, the car will seem MUCH less complex than other cars.
+5
May 23rd, 2010 (2:53 pm)Late to the party; don’t have time to read the posts but I do want to comment on today’s subject and how I see it relate to yesterday’s topic.
I came here a year or so ago because I was excited about the Volt and what it means to all of us. Todays topic crystallizes my thoughts quite well. We – me, you, Detroit, GM, America, the world – need the Volt to succeed. More than any other EV ever built, it has the goods to be successful.
Those here who just can’t wait for the Volt and switched to the Leaf are very disappointing to me. It makes me think ADHD is a common trait among early-adopters who haven’t any patience so they instead jump to a lesser alternative.
I’ll repeat – we need the Volt to succeed. There’s so much more at stake than our own little interests.
May 23rd, 2010 (2:58 pm)Don’t count that for anything, it stays in the car.
Check out my posts on “GM denies all electric Volt coming..” a few days ago. Posts #112 & 144 for my reasoning.
May 23rd, 2010 (3:00 pm)Yeah. What he said.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (3:07 pm)Dave, it’s obviously less complicated. Putting in the genset is at least a magnitude more complicated.
As for whether a BEV or EREV is more costly to build depends entirely on the size of the pack. Clearly if you have a 56 kWh pack then the BEV version would be more expensive. On the other hand if you have a 16 kWh pack — like the i-Miev — then the EREV is clearly less expensive. It may be that based on its experience with the batteries GM is beginning to think that it scrape a 100 mile range out of something like a 20 kWh pack. In this case you’d have to assume the BEV version would be cheaper to build since there are just so many parts needed for the genset.
As Koz has pointed out, without much better information about costs it’s very hard to calculate the break even point.
May 23rd, 2010 (3:08 pm)+1 The most important post you didn’t read is below:
-1
May 23rd, 2010 (3:15 pm)Here’s the logic without knowing anything about the actual costs of components:
Leaf has been quoted at ~4k less than Volt (as far as we know). Assume GM can build a BEV Volt for the same raw costs as Leaf (probably less since GM is much larger than Nissan).
Therefore, a BEV100 Volt can be priced ~4k less than a Volt with RE.
Also, as I mentioned before, a 43KWh residential stationary stand-by generator is more than $10,000 (with engine and without grid controls or battery). GM can build a 53KWh continuous-duty mobile generator that fits under the hood of a compact car for 2k bucks?? Doubt it.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (3:30 pm)Right-O. When they crank up those numbers they’ll just run down to Pep Boys and get the batteries they’ll need? AFAIK the LG Chem factory in 2013 will have a total capacity of cells for 50,000 packs, and it’s hard to make battery packs without cells and EVs without battery packs. Where exactly are the cells coming from?
Moreover, even if the cells are available, it takes time to put everything into place. Even the tooling needed for a given model takes a six to nine months to get into place, and that assumes that the UAW OKs the plans and that they don’t need the capacity to make Malibus or whatever.
GM has said many times the WORLDWIDE capacity for building EREVs (Volts, Amperas, etc.) will top out at 60,000 units a year. I’m not seeing anything that suggests that number can be revised upward with any great speed. GM needs to be planning now, not a year from now when they wake up and say “Gee, our demand estimators who used traditional metrics for an untraditional vehicle missed the boat and grossly underestimate demand”.
The bottom line is that a perfect product that you can’t make to meet demand isn’t a terribly perfect product. There are many dimensions to being “perfect”.
May 23rd, 2010 (3:38 pm)You’ve been missed. Have you been on vacation?
May 23rd, 2010 (3:40 pm)Don, you must have missed my report of the test drive in NYC on Mar 29 at:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/04/02/gm-volt-reader-test-drives-the-nasaman-report/
My passion & excitement are very evident in the details of that writeup as I think you’ll agree.
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (3:52 pm)Yes Loboc you are certainly correct. Your 2k generator estimate in my opinion is on the low side. Then add up the ICE, the exhaust, etc and there would be a considerable monetary savings, probably to the tune of 5 to 6K.
The Volt is engineered so the battery operates in it’s “sweet spot” SOC between 30 & 80%. That’s great engineering for long life, and GM admits that it’s probably overkill. It they made the BEV version operate from 20%(you don’t want deep discharge) to 100% and then added another 6kwh of battery to match the Leafs 24kwh pack ten I believe the BEV Volt would go 100+miles be 200-300lbs lighter and cost at least $2,000 less to build than the EREV Volt.
I still think the EREV Volt will outsell the BEV Volt but I do believe GM should offer both variants. It would require almost no engineering as all the hard work is already done. There are a lot of customers that want a BEV, would prefer a Volt but will settle for a Leaf or other is they have no choice. GM’s making a BEV Volt, Lutz said it himself and even now the explanation we got was that “GM has not officially announced plans to build an all-electric Volt.”. Like the EREV Volt, the BEV is coming. As far as I’m concerned, the more the better.
May 23rd, 2010 (4:04 pm)Dude, Get A Horse!
Oh,,, that was what they were saying about a hundred years ago about the motorcar…
My, how times have changed since then. The Volt the next EVolution.
May 23rd, 2010 (4:05 pm)I did. April 19, 2010 (my BD).
May 23rd, 2010 (4:51 pm)However, 64 year old 40 year veteran auto worker George McGregor, who is president of UAW Local 22 in Detroit, is a bit more apprehensive. ”Americans love power,” he says. “Fast cars. You understand? They LOOVVE large cars. Small cars, efficient cars? We’re being forced into that now. If … gas was reasonable, it would be SUVs and large cars.”
It is discouraging statement to hear since the UAW is a key manufacturing partner. There is a new GM…but it sounds like the same UAW. It is understandable since SUVs and large cars have been the most profitable vehicles in the past. Like anyone…employees of a large company tend to seek opportunities with the more profitable divisions.
May 23rd, 2010 (4:58 pm)I agree that compressed air engines (even rotary) are not realistic when used to power the vehicle’s wheels, but what about using a compressed air engine to replace the Volt’s ICE for generating electricity on board?
Also, as far as the title of today’s article, perhaps it should read: “Chevy Volt is crucial for GM: It must be as close to perfect as possible.”
Anyways, I agree that in order for any carmaker to survive in today’s competitive market, that it has no choice but to be innovative. With so many automakers competing for their respective share of the market, you just can’t survive by doing things in the same way as before, or by doing things in the same way as other automakers. There is no choice but to be innovative or risk being left behind.
Sincerely, George, Sudbury, Ont., Canada…P.S. go Volt!!
May 23rd, 2010 (5:25 pm)“We know the Volt is the last hurrah for GM,” he added. “It’s either do or die.”
********************************************************************
The above statement is a bunch of bull. GM is now building many great cars and saying GM will die if the Volt is not a perfect car is ridiculous!
May 23rd, 2010 (5:32 pm)I am wondering if GM will let us know about production tolerances and quality checks the parts and systems are held to.
Tom
May 23rd, 2010 (5:34 pm)I definitely didn’t miss it! When I read this closely here is what I come away with:
1. Smoother acceleration than what you experienced with an ICE vehicle
2. Great initial torque
3. Precise handling on corners
4. Smooth, effective, and precise braking
You said that Sports Mode made a difference but there wasn’t really a comparison to an ICE vehicle — it was more of a comparison to the Standard Mode. You also didn’t mention the ride or how quiet the car was.
Maybe what I’m wondering is whether you could make some comparisons. For example, acceleration was similar to X, where X is some car we might know about. Or the ride was as smooth as Y, where Y is some other car we might be familiar with. I realize some of this may not be possible given that the ride was a few times around a parking lot but it would give points of reference.
What I’d love to be able to tell people is that the Volt accelerates, handles, and rides like a BMW 7 series or a Mercedes S series sedan. To me those are the two best rides so I’m thinking such a comparison would be more than attention getting! That’s probably too much to ask of the Volt but I’d settle for a comparable ride to a BMW 5 series or Mercedes E series sedan.
May 23rd, 2010 (5:41 pm)Thanks. I’ve missed participating too.
Stuff happens.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 23rd, 2010 (5:49 pm)Hey mister, let’s watch that sailor talk…. This is a family-oriented operation around here!!
May 23rd, 2010 (5:51 pm)“Quiet as a church mouse, softer than a butterfly’s kiss”. I haven’t been IN luxury vehicles any higher up the food chain than a Lexus, but I *can* say that the quiet inside the Volt – the feeling of being immersed in the car (almost organically) and separated from the outside environment was all I babbled about for 5 minutes after the ride.
Sport Mode *did* drive a little stream of drool from the both corners of my Volt smile, back toward my ears… (g)
HTH
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 23rd, 2010 (5:58 pm)I’m hoping that you saw the tempus fugit reference prior to my remark.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 23rd, 2010 (6:02 pm)Yes. The old carbs of the past no longer exist in our modern ICE (kinda miss them..). I guess I still fall back to the good ole days, but I really meant the fuel delivery system, which consists of even more parts and “opportunities” for failures. (fuel pump, pressure regulator, injectors, hoses, clamps, filters….).
I still wish I knew how GM was building that generator and keeping the price reasonable. A generator of this size requires a lot of material, and just the raw material cost has to be significant.
May 23rd, 2010 (6:04 pm)Yeah, I did… just pokin’ a little fun at ya.
May 23rd, 2010 (6:10 pm)But this is wrong.. Nissan is building everything in-house and GM is outsourcing almost everything.. why would you expect GM is paying less?
The generator and its inverter in the Volt are probably $2500 by themselves, plus all the other components that make a car.. such as the motor/inverter, battery pack, electric AC compressor, electro-hydraulic brakes and a 1000 other details.. and GM is outsourcing all of it.
May 23rd, 2010 (6:15 pm)Good photo of Terri Quigley and the Volt. GM will do okay with their current lineup until the Volt is delivered to customers. My neighbor just bought a new Camaro. One of my golfing buddies has a new Equinox. The Cruz and Spark will heighten interest on dealer lots. These both need to be available soon.
The Volt is a pre-order item. Will be interesting to see if GM starts by having one per dealer for test-drive-to-order. Or if they take the Camaro route and make it first come first serve with no test drive. Or if GM will continue to arrange parking lot demo days. Maybe a few for us regular working people?
It may be that most Voltec enthusiasts are resigned to just lay back and pursue the 2012 flex fuel model. Or hopefully, SEVERAL available models.
It goes without saying that the gm volt dot com contributors wish GM well with the rollout.
=D-Volt
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (6:48 pm)All I can say is, there is a lot of hype, but will the little guy be able to buy one? It will be out of reach
for the little guy. The last price I saw bandied about was $46000. To rich for my blood and so to for
all the people out of work.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (6:57 pm)First, +1 for attacking the problem logically.
However, 80% of 24 total kWh is only 19.2 available kWh. The Volt gets 5 miles per kWh, so that would be a BEV-96. For a BEV-100 version of the Volt, you would need 25 total kWh with 20% / 100% empty/full points.
Also, charging the battery to 100% may be unwise. There would be no regenerative braking at that point. It may also affect battery life. I think trip points at 20% and 90% charge are more realistic for a BEV. That would work better and last longer. This would require a 28.5 total kWh.
Note that the Leaf doesn’t advertise their battery trip points, and I believe the battery warranty is much less than 10 years/150,000 miles.
I also believe the ICE genset will cost less that your estimates, but nobody has real cost estimates to back that up.
May 23rd, 2010 (7:08 pm)Wrong again. GM is building almost everything in-house. They announced a while back an investment of about $200M into the factory for building 2-mode transmissions and Volt motor-generator. This is how they are keeping costs down.
GM designed the motor control system and initially had this out-sourced, but now it is internal. Battery pack assembly is internal. Only the battery cells are out-sourced to LG Chem, which until a chemistry becomes a clear winner is the smart thing to do.
GM does out-source a lot of things like seats and window mechanisms, but have made a commitment to maintain core components like engines and Volt electric drive internal.
May 23rd, 2010 (7:20 pm)Think back to how much the first cell phones, VCR’s, CD players, or flat screen TV’s cost. I think that many of us will be waiting for a while before a Volt is even available. It won’t take long after that before economies of scale will bring down the price to “Everyman” levels.
Patience grasshopper.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (7:22 pm)All true but Nissan is using the LA04 Cycle to get their hundred miles. Using that Cycle the Volt would probably need less than 200 wh/mile. My guess would also be the Volt is more efficient than the Leaf because of the two-mode “transmission”, especially at higher speeds. So if the Leaf needs 24 kWh to go X distance the Volt might only need 22 kWh.
May 23rd, 2010 (7:25 pm)We have been talking this in the Leaf forum for some days. It is possible when Nissan says it has a 24kwh battery – they are talking about usable size.
BTW, the battery warranty has not been disclosed. Some people who talked to Leaf people during the bike race in LA were told of 10 year warranty.
I expect Nissan to offer 10 yr warranty to match Volt’s.
May 23rd, 2010 (7:26 pm)See, here is the problem. Lack of context. The church has no mice and I’ve never been kissed by a butterfly! I guess sometimes it’s just hard to describe something unique.
May 23rd, 2010 (7:27 pm)Easy for you to say. Aren’t you the one that can’t stand, “Stay Tuned?”
May 23rd, 2010 (7:32 pm)Exactly. How would you describe to color blue to a person blind since birth? Or tell a person who is deaf how a bell sounds. I *did* think that the drool was a pretty good visual though….
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-1
May 23rd, 2010 (7:35 pm)Again with the need to study history.
How many years from rollout to affordable?
Those examples each took a heck of a lot longer than just a few years.
May 23rd, 2010 (7:40 pm)Exactly why I avoided that phrase!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (7:45 pm)I’m certain that you are familiar with the concept of, ahem, acceleration… Sometimes you just can’t slow a good thing down.
Tagamet
/MORE recalls? Maybe they should slow down.
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 23rd, 2010 (7:54 pm)What do you miss?
The hard starting, the horrible exhaust stench of the mixture not being exact, after running or them gumming up with varnish?
May 23rd, 2010 (7:56 pm)Roy, Not sure why you included my quote, since I was not making any argument for or against where or what GM provides as OEM.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (8:03 pm)Charging to 100% greatly reduces current Li-ION battery life considerably. Charging fully requires a higher voltage, and higher voltage increases undesired corrosion.
-1
May 23rd, 2010 (8:11 pm)Ok, to say others are attacking this illogically is not fair.
You put together your best guess estimate, that you admit is just your best estimate, and then when someone else has an estimate that does not jive with yours, it suddenly becomes illogical…your losing me on this.
So, my biggest question of the extra cost adder is the generator. Now, we all know we can only estimate, so do not tell me my estimate is wrong unless you can back it up with facts, which we all know is not possible, unless some GM dude decides to pipe up with the real cost.
So, I searched for the most basic generator I could find, and I think this would be the type of generator that farmers typically use with a tractor and PTO (power take off). This has no frills and is as basic, as basic can be.
So here is a link to my brief search for a generator:
http://www.everygenerator.com/asp/show_detail.asp?sku=WNC1230&csnpt=SS77-WNC1230&SSAID=198698&refid=SS198698&df=1
Now, they quote a price of $14,000 original, sale price of $9,753. This is a 105KW, and is bigger than the Volts 53KW, so lets say the price is about $100/10KW, so that puts list price at $5,300 for the Volts 53KW.
Now, we know GM will be able to build it cheaper, right? Well, before we go to far, remember this PTO generator is not optimized for size or heat. Also, I would assume the qualification testing of this generator is no where near what GM would perform on the Volts. Then we need to consider all the special noise reduction engineering needed to run in a Volt. Now throw in a warranty that will be included with the Volt.
So, lets say GM can somehow build a 53 KW generator for 1/2 this cost, which seems a stretch, but hey I am just guessing like the rest of you guys.
So, there you have it! The generator cost is $2,650.00!
Let the knives fly….
May 23rd, 2010 (8:14 pm)Yes. The smell brings back so many good memories….Especially, the fact that you could fix it when it failed.
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (8:16 pm)Well one other hanging note for GM and the Volt… If gas prices go up… SUCCESS!!!! if they drop… it could be disaster!
I can’t believe I am hoping for higher gas prices
May 23rd, 2010 (8:25 pm)I sure wish they would loose the damn 12 volt lead acid battery.
Lead is so twentieth century.
Its’ weight is not worth hauling around for the power available from it.
Instead, they ought to refine the DC to DC converter with a solid state
LiIon battery of the same 10 year longevity characteristics as the traction battery.
And, if someone wants to power a 600 watt eardrum-splitter, then make available to them
as an option, a bigger flavor Li-Ion 12 volt accessory battery that has 1000 watts to run it.
May 23rd, 2010 (8:32 pm)Dan,
I 100% agree with this. I think maybe the old lead-acid battery makers have some leverage that keeps us using this old paper weight. I am no battery expert, but why can they not make an equivalent battery for replacement in all the old ICE cars. Possibly, the cold-cranking amperage capacity of lead-acid is not doable with the other battery technologies?
So, we need a battery guy to explain this…at least to me.
Regarding using a 12V lead acid in a hybrid or EREV, it seem silly. I am not even sure why you would mess with using a dc-to-dc converter. Just tap the lower series of Li-Ion batteries to tap 12 volts.
Now these batteries would take more abuse than the others, but seems fairly insignificant.
May 23rd, 2010 (8:51 pm)So much is dependent on the electrical characteristics of lead-acid. Internal resistance reference for all ICE temp sensors, buffering surges, absorbing harmonic currents, and other things. If a Li-Ion 12 volt battery is considered, then all these other things will also have to be reconsidered. So, it’s really not that lead acid battery makers have some added influence, it’s just that about 8 characteristics of lead have been depended-upon for so many decades in addition to the historical cheaper cost. Although the cost of lead has been going up for the last few years. Maybe GM might have a surprise for us here, but we’ll have to wait and see.
12 volt fans, blowers, lights, radio/cd, wiper motor, etc, are all things historically needing the lower safer voltage of a 12 volt system, especially for when all those parts begin to wear out and fail.
May 23rd, 2010 (9:09 pm)This is so logical, they may already be ditching the lead-acid and have a 12 volt Lithium battery if for no other reason than to save weight. They do need 12 volts to run all the standard 12 volt accessories and yes it is charged via DC to DC converter from main battery.
May 23rd, 2010 (9:14 pm)DC-DC converters are cheap and reliable. All cells in the main battery must be charged and discharged exactly equally (this is the main function of the battery management system) for long life. There is no way they would destroy a few cells to save on a DC-DC converter.
May 23rd, 2010 (9:17 pm)The question is always “compared to what?” If the Volt has half the ride and handling that the people here who have driven here say it has, then it may well be an “affordable” alternative to a BMW 5 series sedan. Given that the comment from a Prius owner was that the Volt made the Prius seem like “a toy”, to be affordable the Volt doesn’t have to priced competitively vis a vis a Prius. If that happened Toyota wouldn’t be able to sell the thing. It’s going to have quite the challenge even with a decent price advantage.
As for when the Volt can be sold at a lower price point, that would be for Gen II. So maybe three years.
May 23rd, 2010 (9:24 pm)Re: GM building Volt components in house.
Herm was responding to your question. I disagreed with him. My response to you is that GM does save money by building these high-cost specialty components in house.
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (9:27 pm)The VOLT will succeed, but definitely not with the help of dealers in the Pacififc Northwest.
GM has to start informing dealers with more info than “Please checkout the GM web site. Not too much is known about the VOLT.” This is a pretty bad response for a vehicle in development for 4 years & from GM dealers who have been selling their vehicles for decades.
Case in point why I put down my deposit on the LEAF. Dealers won’t take a deposit on a vehicle they know very little about (or when they might even see one) and I don’t want to be waiting until 2012 or later until production ramps up!!
GO EV!!!
Range Anxiety = Oil Dependency
May 23rd, 2010 (9:54 pm)I was trying to pay you a compliment. I feel like a lot of people attack my assertions without any facts or figures, and you didn’t do that, so I gave you a +1.
I’m lost as well. Guess I need to improve my communication skills.
They never will, so we will never know. We can only guess.
There are 3 problems with this type of approach:
1) This is a retail price
2) This is for a whole assembly, not just the generator core (rotor/stator)
3) This is for a quantity of 1
For a comparison, if you went to an auto parts desk and ordered all the parts to make a full car, it would probably cost close to a million dollars. There’s a huge markup selling parts retail.
To be clear, we’re talking about a highly negotiated price a supplier will charge GM to buy 60,000 generators over a couple of years. They don’t advertise these types of prices on the web. And since the Volt uses the same housing for the generator and electric motor, we’re just talking about the cost of the generator core itself, and nothing else around it.
Again, my guess is around $500, but neither of us have any real backup, so we’ll never know who’s right.
Here’s another idea: It’s quite possible the Volt’s generator is also used on GM’s two-mode hybrid trucks. Maybe we can use that to estimate the generator cost…
The two Prius motor/generators total 60kW, and one is bigger than the other. For a GM two-mode-hybrid truck, I would guess the larger of the two motor/generators would be around 53kW.
GM’s 2-mode hybrid truck costs around $8000 more than the standard model. The hybrid model adds:
• Motor/Generator 1 (MG1)
• Motor/Generator 2 (MG2)
• Two motor/generator controller circuits (a.k.a. inverters)
• A housing for for both motor/generators
• Heavy duty mechanical linkages, planetary gear, and two clutches
• A NiMH battery pack
If all the stuff on that lists totals $8000 retail, how much would just one of the motor/generator cores cost?
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (9:57 pm)And we believe that this is actual fact, or, just ‘forward looking statements’? GM can say anything it wants about future capacity (as Nissan can). That doesn’t mean that they don’t have back-up plans for the problem of not having enough product. It’s all smoke from both companies so that the competition has no clue what their true capacity is.
Are people still waiting on Camaros? Didn’t think so.
As far as battery cells… GM has farmed that out to LG for the first builds. LG builds many things and seems to have sufficient capacity to supply product. Besides, LG is possibly (probably) not the only supplier that GM has in the wings. We have heard that GM is on GenIII (at least) for their future battery builds.
Sorry, but I think it is incredibly naive to think that the largest automobile manufacturer in the world doesn’t have proper planning in place for these logistical (and solvable) problems.
May 23rd, 2010 (10:21 pm)Thanks for the info, +1.
We know the Volt’s all-eletric range is 40 miles EPA both highway and city:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both-highway-and-city-driving/
So the question is, what is the Leaf’s range for the EPA highway and city cycles?
May 23rd, 2010 (10:49 pm)Based on the range of the Volt, about 96 miles assuming 80% DOD, but we have no idea what the usable capacity on the LEAF is, it could be 24kwh.. The LEAF is a slightly larger car than a Volt, about 6% more frontal area but that should not matter much in the city cycle. The LA4 is a fairly slow city stop-and-go cycle with an average speed of 20mph.
BTW, even at this late stage we dont know the usable capacity of the Volt either..we suspect 8kwh but some state 8.8kwh. GM can tweak the DOD based on their testing.
Ghosn has stated that worst case it will be 60 miles of range, at high speeds on bad roads w/ bad weather and full climate control running. Apparently the quality of the road affects range.
May 23rd, 2010 (11:23 pm)http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/16/gm-to-open-electric-motor-plant/
The motor factory will be up and running in 2013, the battery assembly is up and running now and there have been no statements regarding the inverters from GM. The biggest cost is the cells and you know about those.
GM is probably outsourcing the motors from Remy, previously owned by GM-Delco I believe.
I believe the 3 motors in the Volt are around $1700 each, inverters around $700 each.. based on cost of similar sized motors (by weight). Getting the cost from a GM parts dept gives you an idea also.
May 23rd, 2010 (11:31 pm)I’d be delighted if you’re right.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (11:45 pm)Probably not.. see this excellent article:
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/05/21/nissans-biggest-weapon-against-the-volt-karma-and-plug-in-prius-carb/
Essentially CARB drives the 10 year/150k miles warranty for the Volts battery.. and 50% of the cars sold in the US meet CARB regulations. The LEAF will not be required to do this and will probably offer a 3 year/36k mile warranty.. in any case Ghosn has stated the LEAFs battery is good for 8-10 years in the car and afterwards up to 15 years in secondary applications.
May 24th, 2010 (12:03 am)The guesses I’ve seen are 70-80 for combined City-Hwy. Maybe more like 50-60 on US06. I’ve also been told that the range is greater than 100 miles. Assuming that’s on the LA4 Cycle those numbers might be low.
May 24th, 2010 (12:45 am)This is basically true but GM has stated the Volt is a halo car for them and so far their marketing has used it as such. What would be the point of mislead on production plans, unless that halo campaign is a misdirect?
+2
May 24th, 2010 (1:23 am)Maybe if they followed a Nissan type model they would be coordinating the first expansion plans for Hamtramck right now. Sometimes I really wonder about this process. It’s as though the web doesn’t exist yet, and it’s impossible to plug any real numbers into the brilliant work that the rest of GM has put into the Volt.
Right now Nissan dealers are saying to future buyers we’d be happy to work with you and we’ll get you exactly what you need. Chevy dealers are saying based on what they get from GM, “uhmm Uhhhh Huhh? Oh yeah we heard of that, the um Volt, it’s electric right.”
Post Script – It takes a lot of restraint for me to leave it at that.
May 24th, 2010 (2:40 am)I stand corrected, I didn’t realize that the motor production wouldn’t be until 2013. So GM won’t be able to save costs on this part until then.
3 motors in the Volt? Is that a typo. Everything I have read says 2. One is permanently connected to the output drive, the other is connected by clutches to either the ICE for CS mode or the output for Sport mode. From your link:
” It is actually composed of two motors. The more powerful one acts as the primary driver traction motor, and the other acts as a generator to retrieve kinetic energy during braking and coasting. At times, if needed, both motors can act in parallel, and the system has an electronically limited 111 kw maximum output (150 hp).”
I realize this could be interpreted as 2 motors for drive and a 3rd for the generator, but this shares the 2-mode transmission housing which is designed to hold 2 motors only and has clutches for selecting various modes.
May 24th, 2010 (5:28 am)Assuming the Volt will be perfect, let’s see if GM can “design” a favorable purchase/lease plan to obtain the Volt–if a Volt is available for sale at the Dealer. I can see everyone wanting the Volt of their dreams but Volt financing could be very difficult for the (average) individual to afford the payments, since the price of the financing includes the FULL COST of the Volt PRIOR to the $7,500 rebate. What is not indicated is how to obtain the credit (rebate) from the IRS on where to apply this deduction on the tax form following the purchase–NOT A EASY TASK (I have personal experience doing this).
May 24th, 2010 (5:35 am)From the article
As such, Purcnell and his coworkers are putting more intensity and effort into this car than any before it. ”I don’t want to say that we worked harder on this,” he said. “I think we worked a lot smarter. I mean everybody was on their ‘A’ game. … It was, ‘We want to make sure we’re perfect.’”
As I have been saying all along, this car must be a close to perfect as possible.
I am happy GM agrees with me.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (6:00 am)Admitted, there is some Prius hatred amongst some regulars here on gm-volt.com, and I’ve never understood why – no Prius would have equalled no Volt. We just look at the Prius sales numbers and everything you’ve just said goes up in smoke. Add to that Civic Hybrid and Fusion Hybrid sales numbers and you look just plain uninformed.
Truth is – I don’t know who Volt’s demographic is, you don’t and General Motors doesn’t. It’s new, uncharted waters with more conventional hybrids leading the way. I’m sure it keeps alot of auto executives up at night. In the end, I say nothing ventured, nothing gained.
What you didn’t point out is that Volt, while being better tech, is also limited in that it seats 4 – which is a practical factor in folks buying cars. That one fact makes Volt more like Leaf than many here think. It makes Volt more of a second or third car in a family who has more than one child.
Next time you’re out and about, study Prius owners. I’m one of them, and I’m hard to pigeonhole into any demographic, although recent posts showing Nissan’s logic behind Leaf’s first adopters does sound an awful lot like me. Truth is Prius owners, old and young, male and female, rich or middle class all seem to have one commonality – the belief that their auto purchase can further progress – showing others the way – and making a difference. I think every single car company, the ones watching and waiting, the one’s cutting the path and the ones in-between all have to come to grips with the fact many in our society yearn to have some power in changing our world for the better, for our children and their children’s children. It’s not ours to argue that a car purchase can do that, or that it is or isn’t significant and to what degree. It is beneficial to observe that many who buy hybrids or who are pioneers with EVs are making that message very clear.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
-4
May 24th, 2010 (6:41 am)A $10,000 extra Tax Credit, only for Extended Range Electric Vehicles, applied directly off the purchase price, or lease, and expiring January 2012, would make the Volt perfect IMO. Perfection involves more than just a good product.
May 24th, 2010 (6:45 am)The whole single minded – ‘herd of sheep’ that the car industry is can be summed up in this one few sentences below. Basicly you have 100s of cars in all shapes and sizes from dozens of car companies all over the world – and they essentially make the same thing petrol/diesel vechiles. That they’re so narrow minded to have not thought about doing this properly earlier – that TESLA had to show the big car companies it was possible strikes me as incredibly dumb. They don’t even know what they’ve got – even now!! Idiots!
However, 64 year old 40 year veteran auto worker George McGregor, who is president of UAW Local 22 in Detroit, is a bit more apprehensive. ”Americans love power,” he says. “Fast cars. You understand? They LOOVVE large cars. Small cars, efficient cars? We’re being forced into that now. If … gas was reasonable, it would be SUVs and large cars.” He supposes public taste may be shifting and that people might actually want electric cars. ”Is this what the public really wants?” he asks. ”Hopefully,” he says softly. “Hopefully.”
- ALSO – I see 2 minor issues with this car over the Leaf. The VOLT seats 4 not 5 – the U shaped (batteries under the front, back seats and floor seats is a better design IMHO and doesn’t lose you a seat). And 2. The LEAF is going to cost a bit less.
Of course the VOLT has the range-extender… but unless marketed carefully (and apart from the dance it’s going ok) people might be confused and see an electric LEAF with 100 miles and a more expensive VOLT at only 40 miles. Still, the LEAF is looking very impressive, the interior, dash, charging ideas (super-fast charging port + normal charging port) is clever.
+2
May 24th, 2010 (7:48 am)64 year old 40 year veteran auto worker George McGregor needs to open his eyes and see what young people are driving these days. You know…. YOUNG PEOPLE…. as in “future customers for the coming decades.” They are driving customized Civics, Neons, Cobalts, VWs, etc. Quite frankly I always chuckle a bit when I see one of the cars. A souped up Neon?!? REALLY?!? But the fact remains that tomorrow’s consumer does want a fast car, but not a big one, and not an SUV. And an electric car with great 0 RPM torque? That’s a winner. He may be right about the econoboxes, though. I can’t imagine the Spark being around 10 years from now; not if Detroit keeps improving the efficiency of more reasonably sized cars like the Cruze and Focus.
May 24th, 2010 (9:23 am)All I can say is I want one and in black….SOON. Since I”m in Michigan, maybe I’ll get one of those first units….then again….
+1
May 24th, 2010 (9:26 am)Very hard to believe that there are still some people that think the Volt will not be produced. Same people that think we never really landed on the moon, I suppose. And who live in bunkers.
May 24th, 2010 (4:26 pm)Talk about setting a car up for public failure and ridicule.
May 24th, 2010 (5:16 pm)LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
+2
May 24th, 2010 (5:24 pm)Trouble for Michigan:
UAW Pres George MacGreggor: “”Americans love power,” he says. “Fast cars. You understand? They LOOVVE large cars. Small cars, efficient cars? We’re being forced into that now. If … gas was reasonable, it would be SUVs and large cars.”
This guy’s a friggin dinosaur. UAW – do yourself a favor and elect a young guy that understands that electric propulsion is far more powerful and efficient than gas-fueled internal combustion. Damn George, get your azz over to Tesla and drive their Roadster! Performance EVs have more power and torque than your old Interceptor ever dreamed of!
May 25th, 2010 (9:09 am)Why does GM think that any market research means anything? Who wanted a computer in 1964? Start selling the car. Presell the initial production at a premium price. Then they will know what the real interest is.
It looks to me that they wanted to prove they could build a Volt. They don’t appear to have any interest in actually selling them. (There is history to support this view.)
May 25th, 2010 (10:06 am)Engeneering: don’t blame us — the Volt was perfect! Its marketing that screwed it up!
Marketing: The Volt was too expensive, the Engineers spent too much on making it perfect!
Accounting: It wasn’t our fault!
Is GM planning to fail? Since when is perfection the major design criteria for an automobile? Jeesh here i go again — I will cut off here before going into my standard spiel.
May 26th, 2010 (7:16 am)I hope the UAW doesn’t screw the pooch before it gets out of the gate….