As the days fall off the calendar counting down to when General Motors is expected to start delivering the first Volts into the hands of eager customers, we have been left to wonder about one of the most important decision making factors of the vehicle – the price, and just when we will find out what the price is.
Recent speculation puts that date as far out as October. But regardless of when the actual announcement date rolls around, it begs a more important question; how many sales is GM losing by delaying this announcement and sale of the Volt?
The answer is up to 12,000 and counting. Nissan now has their arms wide open, accepting reservations from anyone who would like to purchase one (or two) of their 100 mile electric cars, the Leaf.
It is obvious there is a huge early demand for electric cars from the group affectionately known as the ‘early adopters,’ and they have been impatiently waiting for a long time…long before the concept of a range extended EV from GM ever existed. To say they will choose to wait even longer for an arguably better platform, while another car goes on sale and hits the market, would be a mistake.
It is a rare day here at GM-Volt.com when you can get through a comment string that doesn’t have someone who wants and prefers a Volt saying that they just can’t wait on GM and they have put in a reservation with Nissan to buy a Leaf, or at the very least intends to lease it, planning to revisit GM’s offerings 3 years later.
I know for myself, I am the same. I will not wait. I will not pass the ‘what is now,’ for the ‘what is coming.’ I will not indefinitely watch as other EVs drive pass me on the roads hoping for GM to deliver. Fortunately for GM in my case, I may very well add a Leaf to the family, and replace a daily driver with a Volt…but realistically this is not going to happen for most other early adopters.
GM never dreamed they would have someone beat them to market, and even though they clearly have decided not to react to the pressure that Nissan has put on them when it comes to scooping up the early adopters, they are still assuming all the business they originally penciled in will still be there on their timeline regardless.
Bob Lutz, in his exit interview with GM-Volt.com was asked just about this subject:
How large do you think the early adopters will be? And what types will they will be. Have you looked at that and studied that?
“I think it is going to be larger than we think. I think every politician in the country and in most other countries is going to want one…everybody who is in show business will want one, I think it will completely displace the Toyota Prius as the vehicle of choice in Hollywood, I think every state governor is going to want one. There is just a enormous latent demand for vehicles to start”
It seems like GM is refusing to believe/acknowledge there is another electric car out there that could scoop up even one sale at all. With Nissan averaging about 500 reservations per day since they put the Leaf out to market, we will never know how many sales GM is losing to them every day, but make no mistake, sales are being lost.
If I didn’t know better, I would say they don’t care. That they don’t have any interest in cultivating a deep order book…and that might just be the case.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (7:45 am)Lyle, I hope you’re just being a good host here and trying to create an interesting topic for the day. If that’s not the case, the other possibility, that you are correct, and GM doesn’t care, is unthinkable, so I’ll try not to think about it.
+11
May 22nd, 2010 (7:48 am)I am on the Leaf reservation list. I believe that a BEV100 would work for a lot of our daily needs.
Nissan is better with their communications (via email) than GM has been. Although, I did get a personal email (not just canned) from a higher-level GM person.
Nissan seems to be more straight-forward in their approach. Ya gotta admire the aggressiveness and ‘it’s gonna happen’ message.
-18
May 22nd, 2010 (7:48 am)(click to show comment)
+6
May 22nd, 2010 (7:49 am)I am fine with GM’s commitment to the release date and the Volt’s technology. However, the marketing strategy seemd very poor. We still don’t have a price, dealers are accepting downpayments with no promise of a delivery date. GM hasn’t officially announced if the volt will actually be sold, leased or leased only. My experience in trying to lease an EV-1 soured me on GM, but I was hoping they would improve. I’ll probably feel ticked off driving by the Nissan dealer with their Leaf’s in the lot while I continue to wait for my volt, but I’ll wait and see how it goes. Maybe the Teslota EV will be available sooner.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (7:54 am)Amen, Lyle. I couldn’t agree with you more.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (7:57 am)Sabotaged it by making one of the great electric cars of its time?
+19
May 22nd, 2010 (8:00 am)Statik, your last paragraph strikes a chord with me. I went to a GM dealer last week and a lot of the stuff they told me was very positive. Their techs are scheduling their EREV courses, they have taken their first deposit on a Volt, (refundable) they have sales managers that have been behind the wheel and loved it, the people that have seen the Volt are very, very impressed with its style, fit and finish. But the sales manager said something that just floored me. He said that GM will never build too many vehicles again, that having vehicles sit unsold on the floor at any time is not profitable. He showed me a drawer full of unfilled orders on Silverados that he was holding until enough Silverados would be assigned to his dealership so that these potential customers could get on the list for it to be delivered in a few months. He said that having excess supply occasionally was so bad that it was worth it to have steady, albeit lower production and have some potential customers cancel their orders for high demand vehicles and go to Ford or Toyota. Corvette Guy can tell me if the sales manager was pulling my chain, but he seemed serious, although what passes for serious for a car salesman may be simply playing a game with a potential purchaser. But this seems like a losers game plan, and the fact that he told me this cockamamie idea and acted like it was good business planning tends to indicate to me that his bosses agree. That is some pretty pathetic Koolaid. I blame the Harvard MBA’s in charge of most of American businesses, knowledgeable to the penny of the cost of everything, completely ignorant on the value of anything intangible.
-16
May 22nd, 2010 (8:00 am)(click to show comment)
+12
May 22nd, 2010 (8:01 am)it’s posted by Statik, not Lyle. And you don’t even need to look for signature to tell – style and content are totally different
+6
May 22nd, 2010 (8:02 am)I take Sherry Boschert’s news from Rob Peterson as very encouraging. Rob said that the low limited production of Volts would last 6 months, after that GM would fill every order given.
We all want this to-day and we are now 6 months and 20 days from November 10 launch day so full production commences in 1 year. This will also be when the Volt is available everywhere by extension. Battery production and availability is probably still the limiting factor, but we do not know what the capability of LG Chem in Korea is. It could be far in excess of the 5000/month that would be 1 full shift of one production line at Hamtramck.
Hamtramck has 3 production lines and can put on extra shifts. Hopefully GM will be able to crank out 10000 Volts/mth if there is sufficient demand. This more optimistic scenario means everyone here can have their volt before 2012.
Nissan says they can build 50000 LEAFs a year, and that may include extra shifts as they are building a new assembly line to handle more orders. Will you get your LEAF before 2012? Yes but maybe only a few months before you could get your Volt.
Nissan will not have LEAFs for sale before GM is taking orders for the Volt. The race is actually going to be very close.
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (8:05 am)It’s all quite sad. Here’s a recap of my personal experience trying to get on a “Volt list” in the San Francisco Bay area: 1 dealer didn’t know what the Volt is, but said I could be 1st on the list; 1 dealer was accepting $1000 deposits, but didn’t respond to any follow-up email messages from me; 1 dealer actually had a list and I’m 3rd on it (no deposit); 1 dealer thought he had a list with maybe 3 people on it and then asked me for $1000, which I happily agreed to send….however, that dealership changed its mind and decided not to take deposits because they had so little information, they were afraid of providing a bad customer experience.
Are we sure this car is coming in the fall?
+36
May 22nd, 2010 (8:08 am)This is clearly the issue that I and others have brought up. GM comes out with a real crusher…ie, the VOLT, but then allows others to pass it up. Pathetic volume, 8k the first year, are you kidding me? And this is supposed oust the competition? I know I sound negative here, but that is how I intend it too. The Volt to me is amazing. I want one and can afford one, but I honestly believe I am never going to have one within the next two years…MINIMUM. I don’t want a leaf as it is just too limited for me which brings me back to the way I have been leaning for awhile now. I am still considering a Ford Fusion Hybrid. Great car, seats five, tons of options, and I can easily average of 40mpg. I hate to be in this camp though. If GM would be more forth coming about a REAL waiting list with HONEST expectations of availability instead of that you need to be “Plug in Ready” bullsh** I would have a different tone. GM could easily dominate that market with this car and others like it but they have even said they don’t want to build another car that might take sales away from the VOLT!? Go figure. I support GM in what they are doing as in building this awesome car, but I cannot for the life of me support how they have denied us a real waiting list, with a real price, with real expectations of when each of us might actually put one in our lane. All they have done is said they will go to the plug in markets first and sell them in California, Michigan, and DC. Are you kidding me. I have a garage with a plug in right now. Don’t belittle your consumer GM.
Hawk
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (8:08 am)As a single guy, a BEV (of any flavor) is unworkable if I want to drive out of town (to Phoenix or LA). Unless I want two cars (which I don’t). So I wait…
May 22nd, 2010 (8:10 am)rvd said:
it’s posted by Statik, not Lyle.
Sorry, delete the first word of my post and insert Statik, but keep the rest of the post.
+6
May 22nd, 2010 (8:12 am)“If I didn’t know better, I would say they don’t care. That they don’t have any interest in cultivating a deep order book…and that might just be the case”
————————-
GM can not make up its mind on price. $40k sticker shock is just not gonna fly anymore and they know it. Not after much cheaper Leaf. You can not move any further into early reservation/leasing business unless you open up that bit.
+8
May 22nd, 2010 (8:15 am)So, producing a car for $80k and leasing it like it’s worth $20k is practical?
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (8:17 am)Repost from prior thread…
Dave G: Let’s say GM wanted to build a Volt based BEV-100.How much would that cost relative to a Volt EREV-40?The CEO of the company that built the Volt’s prototype battery packs already quoted a price of $8000.This corresponds to $1000/available kWh, or $500/ total kWh.But with a BEV, you don’t need the buffer for the range extender mode, so you can use 70% of total capacity for the BEV, vs. 50% of total capacity for an EREV.The Volt gets 40 miles range on 8 available 8kW, or 5 miles/available kWh.That means a BEV-100 Volt would need 20 available kWh.With 70% of total capacity available for use, that would be 28.5 total kWh.At $500/total kWh, a Volt BEV-100 battery pack would cost $14,250.That’s $6250 more than a Volt EREV-40 battery pack.Assuming the Volt’s ICE/genset costs around $2000, that means a Volt BEV-100 should cost around $4000 more than a Volt EREV-40, all things being equal.Since it looks like the Leaf and Volt will be priced about the same, or perhaps the the Volt even costs more, that tells me that all things are not equal, which may include:
1) Nissan is using a cheaper design for the battery pack and other components
2) Nissan has lower company overhead and supplier costs
3) Nissan is losing money on each car while GM is not
4) GM is padding up the price of the Volt for early adoptersI suspect all 4 of these are correct to one degree or another.But no matter which of these 4 is correct, one thing becomes exceedingly clear:
Nissan could build an EREV-40 version of the Leaf for $4000 less than the BEV-100 Leaf.I hope Nissan understands this as well and lets the market decide by offering a Leaf EREV-40…
=================================
Dave, I think you are grossly underestimating the cost adder for the ICE and generator. You must include all (and there are a lot) of the ancillary components necessary to support the ICE. You have things like, mufflers, catalytic converters, fuel pumps, water pumps, carburetors, gas tank, hoses, linkages, on and on….Then you have that generator. I see no way that this generator is going to cost less than $1,000. This is not your off-the-shelf generator, and your talking large power figures and form factor. You also need all the heavy power linkages between the ICE and generator, which again are not penny items.
Now, you also need to add in the other aspect of supporting the ICE/generator. This entails all the costs that I incur on my standard ICE based vehicle today. The fact that you will be putting few miles on the ICE/generator has both pluses and minuses. You will definitely get less wear, but you also need to deal with father time. Time is part of the equation for maintenance, not just mileage.
If I were to put my best guess on the cost adder to the Volt, related specifically to the ICE/gen set, I would place the range in the $4-5,000 range. And this may even be a little conservative. Now add in your additional yearly maintanence related to the ICE/gen-set and you start to see the real cost of supporting something that will be used only occasionally.
-Just my opinion of course…
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (8:19 am)No, this makes perfect business sense. In the past GM has forced dealers to carry 100′s of extra cars which the dealers had to unload, usually by fire sale prices which they lost money on. This new policy of build only what you can sell is not a bad as you think. Very few orders will be lost by not having the vehicle on the lot in the color and options you want. If you are particular about the options you want you are probably willing to wait a month to get exactly your choice.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (8:20 am)Time to get married. Then you can have two cars!
-7
May 22nd, 2010 (8:26 am)Hey, it’s General Motors. GM has not cared about its customers — or potential customers — for many decades. Why are you surprised?
+7
May 22nd, 2010 (8:32 am)This is the same old arguments. The EV1 was a car before its time. If it is such a good idea, go buy a $100,000 Hydrogen car now. It is similar to the EV1 situation. Four times the cost for a car with limited range and refueling difficulties. Any business that would mass produce such a thing is simply foolish.
It is debatable whether it is time to mass produce a car like the leaf. The leaf has superior battery technology to the EV1 and gas is much higher now. If the leaf is barely practical now, the EV1 was a loser from the start with gas at less than $1.20. GM is not in the business to make 1000 cars for rich people. Its not worth setting up a factory for that. The real car business is for the mass production of vehicles. Mass producing the EV1 was never a good idea and they only made them in limited numbers because of mandates. There have always been hand made custom electric cars around. People who really wanted an electric could always get one or have one made but that is not the business GM is in. If the mandates were such a good idea, why did CARB drop them? Oil companies and GM did not vote to drop the mandates.
+7
May 22nd, 2010 (8:33 am)Excellent Statik,
You took the words right out of my mouth. (Well they weren’t mine, they were better).—but that’s your job. It’s possible this might have some effect on GM, but I doubt it. They need to do SOMETHING. At a minimum they need to throw us a little bone: A reservations list seems most logical.
A larger 1st year production is best.
+8
May 22nd, 2010 (8:38 am)When will the crying about the EV1 stop? Please get over it or at least get the facts straight. Below is a summary of EV1 from several sources on the web. “The EV1 was made available through limited lease-only agreements, initially to residents of the cities of Los Angeles, California and Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona. EV1 lessees were officially participants in a “real-world engineering evaluation” and market study into the feasibility of producing and marketing a commuter electric vehicle in select U.S. markets undertaken by GM’s Advanced Technology Vehicles group. The cars were not available for purchase, and could be serviced only at designated Saturn dealerships. The cars were made available via a leasing program, with the option to purchase the cars specifically disallowed by a contractual clause (the suggested retail price was quoted as $34,000). One industry official said that each EV1 cost the company about US$80,000, including research, development and other associated costs;[60] other estimates placed the vehicle’s actual cost as high as $100,000. While customer reaction to the EV1 was positive, GM believed that electric cars occupied an unprofitable niche of the automobile market as they were only able to lease 800 units in face of production costs of US$1 billion over four years. The EV1 program was subsequently discontinued in 2002, and all cars on the road were repossessed. Lessees were not given the option to purchase their cars from GM, which cited parts, service, and liability regulations. The majority of the repossessed EV1s were crushed, and the rest delivered to museums and educational institutes with their electric powertrains deactivated, under the agreement that the cars were not to be reactivated and driven on the road. “
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (8:39 am)All Nissan has done, is announce they are taking preorder/deposits to get on the waiting list for the Leaf, correct? Did I miss something–that’s what their website said when I checked it out of curiosity? When will the Leaf actually be delivered to dealers, and when can you actually drive one home? For the Volt that will happen in Nov. Nissan is being aggressive, but are they actually ahead, or does it only seem that way? This could backfire on them just as quick–apparently there is a lot of pent-up-demand.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (8:39 am)I’ve been following this forum since close to the beginning. I was hopefull that I could buy a Volt around 2012 or so but it doesn’t look like it is going to happen. The initial production is going to be limited and not released anywhere near my location. Plus in the interum, like many Americans still lucky enough to be employed, my employee benefits have been diddled with. That costs me close to the equivalent of 2 weeks pay per year. Then there is the increased inflation since then. Since I only live 6 miles from work and 2 miles from most necessary shopping I don’t think I’ll be in the car market in the near future. The costs just don’t work out. I’ll continue to drive my 2005 Toyota Matrix till the wheels fall off. It seem to have more usable cargo space, still has fairly low mileage, and the car tag fee is finally reasonable. I’ll continue to follow the Volt in case the situation changes.
+13
May 22nd, 2010 (8:40 am)To be fair we have to put ourselves in GM’s shoes and look at this from their perspective – not just our own, dare I say selfish, point of view. Let’s look at some recent history of GM and the media. First there was the 230 MPG announcement that they got grilled over and more recently the news that they paid back their Govt. loan 5 years early. Both items led to GM getting lots of negative coverage for what should have been positive PR. Yes, I know the negative arguements for both things and they carry a fair amount of validity but still overall those should have been positives that instead were spun into negatives.
Now lets look at the pricing of the Volt. GM cannot win here with the poisonous press coverage that they get. They will be selling at a loss initially no matter what the price – the question is how much. Then they will obviously be trying to have people focus on the price after the govt rebate. Here is the problem. GM is something like 65% govt owned. So the arguement is going to be swung by the press that the govt is going to be taking a loss on each Volt and then subsidizing it further with the rebate. And again what should have been a big PR announcement by GM will be spoiled by negative but valid points. So perhaps GM is planning on not announcing pricing until after their IPO. I doubt that they would consider the Volts needs in something as large as the timing of their IPO but the reverse could be true. That is that those in charge of the Volt could be waiting on the IPO. I could be wrong and I hope I am but it is just one more reason that GM has got to get their IPO done and get this 800 lb. monkey called govt ownership off its back.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (8:41 am)Sharon, not totally unlike my experience, but I DID eventually find a dealership that seemed to know what to do. They took a $500 deposit, not above MSRP. What I like about your experience is that they seem to be fairly honest, a good sign. I think you are doing the right thing, just stay with it, keep asking questions. When it feels right then make the commitment.
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (8:42 am)GM dropped the FlexFuel feature on the 2011 model Volt, and my area isn’t in the initial roll-out anyway, so I’ll probably wait for the 2012 Volt model that comes out next year.
What I really want is an EREV Orlando or MPV5.
+8
May 22nd, 2010 (8:51 am)In addition to the above, has anyone even driven a Leaf? GM has been very open for the last three years. Nissan has to do what is best for themselves, but being fully open is not really their thing. Don’t know what their overall strategy is, but they are playing catch-up, where GM has to be careful to not make any missteps while out in the open. I think that GM mainly has to forge ahead with their game plan. But the VOLUME issue is a concern. I would like it if GM would give us some indication that they can deal with a range of production volumes. That if backlogs DO go beyond 9 months delivery that they will respond.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (8:51 am)GM has again dropped the ball. This lack of basic marketing info from them indicates clearly they are still confused at the top. If you are thinking “they are taking their time to get it right” is wrong. You start with a spreadsheet and a pro forma and work your plan. That’s why they went bankrupt – no long term plan followed. Lutz is now gone and the LEAF and Toyota will take all us early adopters, just read between Deloitte’s lines. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but that’s Detroit’s 20th Century thinking in 2010.
+10
May 22nd, 2010 (8:55 am)Rather than get bent out of shape on Volt production numbers and availability. It’s better to suggest ways that this car can be delivered to buyers. One comment above mentions huge numbers of unsold vehicles on dealer lots. And how this leads to delayed sales and small profit. There is a simple answer.
Online ordering via option menu. The Volt is basically a rolling computer. May as well be delivered as such. List the basic Volt at $37,499 with add-on options. When the selections are complete enter the down payment amount (Master Card/Visa/PayPal). Then select from a list of GM dealers chosen from a 50 mile radius of the order. This list may display creative twists such as: Desert Motors delivers at +$500. Palm Motors delivers at +600 w/ free detailing for one year. Coast Motors delivers at +$700 w/ $50 service credit for first 5 referrals.
Online ordering will work for everyone. Starting in early August?
=D-Volt
+6
May 22nd, 2010 (8:57 am)I respectfully disagree with “The answer is up to 12,000 and counting”.
Actually, i doubt they have lost a single sale to the Leaf, as the limited production of both the Leaf and the Volt will ensure anything produced will be sold before it hits the show room floor for the first couple of years. And when they actually have a build-up of stock (more than one car lasting a couple of hours before it is sold), sales overseas will start!
+6
May 22nd, 2010 (8:59 am)Roy, thanks for the dealers look at the question, but I think you over estimate the patience of todays auto customer. When Ford didn’t jump on my request for a Hybrid Escape, I gave them a week then bought a RAV4. Now the Hybrid is a high demand vehicle due to the limited build, but the fact is todays buyer doesn’t tolerate ‘We will get back to you’ very well. If GM thinks people will wait for a great Silverado, they will lose a lot of sales to the F150 and the Ram, and those sales probably won’t come back to GM in the future. It is that penny wise and pound foolish thinking that has been shrinking GM’s market share for decades. I agree that GM shouldn’t force dealers to buy unwanted vehicles, but GM has to be able to come close to meeting demand, both on the Silverado and the Volt (both EREV and BEV if it is built), or the buyers will go to the competition, and you can bet that there will be EREV competition before GM gets to full production.
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (9:10 am)I totally agree. The Volt may be more advanced, blah blah blah, and GM can say that all they want, but consumers will compare it against the Leaf (and to a lesser extent, the Prius), no matter how different the functionality between the vehicles.
So yes, a $40K sticker price is just insanity, especially now that Leaf pricing has been announced. My dad said to me, “It’s not gonna sell at $40K, definitely at $20-$25K, but not $40K.”
If GM had a price on the Volt of, say, $24,995, it would definitely sell like hotcakes. Maybe there shouldn’t be a $7,500 tax credit, because it, like the “cash for clunkers program,” could cause dealers to jack up the prices.
The key is volume, and the “slow ramp up” that GM keeps touting is a very misguided strategy, IMO.
+6
May 22nd, 2010 (9:12 am)My impression too. I read an account of some electric car fan who drove to one of the Tour of California sites (Sacratomato?) to see the LEAF and they wouldn’t let him closer than a few feet. So, we can’t buy either one of these, but I appreciate the GM approach to sharing the development of the Volt. The LEAF, if it comes, seems like it’s just popping out of nowhere. The Volt, if it comes, might seem more familiar.
+8
May 22nd, 2010 (9:18 am)I think most of the people on Leaf’s list are just expressing their desire for an EV to be on the roads with their $99 refundable deposit. When it comes down to paying $25,000 for a car you can only drive 2 or 3 hours before a recharge of some type, they’ll think twice. Hopefully the more practical Volt will be there waiting with open arms.
+20
May 22nd, 2010 (9:19 am)Actually Nissan has over 18,000 Leaf reservations at this point, and I do think that if GM offered advanced reservations the same day Nissan did and has announced a price for the Volt (as long as it was under 38k) then Nissan would have under 10,000 reservations at this point and GM would have about 25,000.
All just guesses of course, but the point is, YES early adopters are going to go to the dance with the first girl that will say yes and GM is going to lose a lot of customers and media attention to Nissan because they fail at marketing. Every time I watch TV now I see a Leaf commercial, and I’m in New Jersey where we probably won’t see a Leaf for a year, but Nissan is getting everybody ready for it and building up anticipation.
I drive a MINI-E like Lyle and a lot of people in my area know me because I’ve been in a lot of local newspapers and in a NY Times video. Strangers that see me in the car stop me and ask me if I know anything about the “Nissan electric car” because they figure I know all about electric cars. Nobody has ever asked me about the Volt except my close friend that is as loyal GM customer. The Volt may very well be a better car than the leaf, but Nissan is winning the PR war.
May 22nd, 2010 (9:21 am)GM already does this just go to http://www.gm.com/ All models and options are listed. Build your car, Find a dealer, negotiate a price. It’s all there, they just haven’t added the Volt yet.
-7
May 22nd, 2010 (9:22 am)Whatever.
-3
May 22nd, 2010 (9:22 am)GM does not understand the EV market at all. Most buyers of an EV consider it a secondary utility vehicle and the Volt is marketed as a primary vehicle to replace your existing instead of supplementing it. The Nissan LEAF better fits the marketplace and will outsell the Volt by a large margin. The plug-in Prius will sell hundreds of thousands in its first year alone therefore Toyota will maintain a huge lead over the hybrid Volt in sales. The Volt will not be made in sufficient numbers to become a leader in the Hybrid market, just cannot happen no way no how.
As for Hollyweird adopting the Volt as their car of choice, not so sure this will happen. Kalifornia not in love with American cars, they still like their imports, GM would have to do huge ad campaign to change the SoCal and NoCal mindset, not likely.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (9:25 am)Driving 2-3 hours every day is wasting a big chunk of your life.. I dont care how nice the car is or how pretty the scenery.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (9:30 am)Well, some of what he says is true. Dealers do not want to have too much inventory. Turnover in 90 days or less is a very good thing. “Pulling your chain”..? Maybe. I would like to have a drawer full of truck orders. I would be on the phone working out ‘dealer trades’ – and/or working with the buyers to take my OLD inventory off my hands. (read discount)
Ordering VOLTs in the early going will be the same as it was for Camaro. And the ‘patience’ of the customer will surely be tested. What statik says us true; many VOLT buyers will look elsewhere if the wait is too long. I lost several Camaro sales to Mustang and Challenger’s. (a couple of them did call me to let me know they regretted that decision)
When the VOLT concept was first introduced, as I recall, the price was expected to be in the mid-20′s… And at that time I did a lot more commuting. I had planned to be an ‘early adopter’. But that changed soon after, and I only drive 2 miles to get to work now. Saving big bucks at the pump is not my primary reason for wanting a VOLT now. And now that the price is projected to be in the upper 30′s… I can afford to wait for a lower priced VOLT or EREV Cruze. And if an all-electric VOLT is in the works, and my commute does not change, I would consider that first.
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (9:31 am)Thanks for your feedback. I guess we just have a different mind set. So how many people think a month to fill an order is too long?
+13
May 22nd, 2010 (9:32 am)____________________________________________________________________
From Statik’s above article…
Lyle’s question to Lutz:
“How large do you think the early adopters will be? And what types will they will be. Have you looked at that and studied that?”
Lutz response:
“I think it is going to be larger than we think. I think every politician in the country and in most other countries is going to want one…everybody who is in show business will want one, I think it will completely displace the Toyota Prius as the vehicle of choice in Hollywood, I think every state governor is going to want one. There is just a enormous latent demand for vehicles to start”
—————————-
GM is not grasping that there are a bunch of Middle America “ordinary” folks wanting an Electric Car. While GM is distributing a very limited supply of Volts to politicians and Hollywood stars for the purpose of upping the Volt’s “Halo” image, us more ordinary consumers will certainly be shopping around to get our Electric Car fix. Nissan to their credit understands that dynamic and is working hard to exploit it.
_________________________________________________________________
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (9:34 am)Make up your mind, Statik. I thought you said that GM would NOT launch the Volt in late 2010 – that it was all a PR stunt… a lie. You even committed to making a public apology to GM and Bob Lutz if they DID launch on time…right ? What about the coverup of the problems with the on-board generator you whined about – where did that conspiracy theory lead to ? Some people just are not happy unless they are whining and bleating about things – you seem to be one of them. Looking forward to your formal apology, regardless. “Vaporware” my arse ! Dissatisfied and disillusioned Leaf customers will make the best Volt spokespeople. If you want a BEV that bad, just buy a golf cart.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (9:36 am)I have really liked GMs openness about the development of this car. The shared the ideas that went into the design and have really set great expectations about what the car will do.
And they succeeded in getting a dedicated group of folks (early adopters, electric car enthusiasts, etc.) excited to purchase this car.
Now in recent weeks we get news about the Nissan Leaf, a Toyota/Tesla (TT) venture coming to market soon. AND on top of that we read the VOLT may be in LIMITED production the first year????
Frankly I am surprised there seems to be a pull back in getting this car to market in a timely manner. The window for growing customer loyalty is now. GM’s competition will not wait for the VOLT to get to market and, dare I state, neither will its customers if a another viable range extended electric car arrives.
I believe the market is wide open for the VOLT and they should be working on every option possible to bring this car to market in quantity.
Unlike a politician or movie star I plan to use the VOLT everyday driving more than 40 miles frequently.
So I am waiting…. but not forever.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (9:37 am)JohnK, I have had a similar experience. At first, “we’re not taking deposits yet.” I now have a $500 deposit, am #1 on their list, and do not have an above MSRP clause. I just have to wait. I also had to agree to let “my Volt” sit in the dealers showroom for awhile, probably one month.
The latest I have from a GM rep is that 2011 Volt will “be out at the end of the year.” Notice I didn’t say October or November, but the end of the year. These will be going to the initial markets, which coincidentally includes politicians and Hollywood. Then, six months later, they’ll be rolling out to other US markets. I’m hoping to place an actual order next summer sometime.
+6
May 22nd, 2010 (9:44 am)The whole development process and the people in charge of the Volt have been so open and enthusiastic that I’m hopeful their plan for pricing and availability matches the good work they have done so far. They are probably as eager as we are to get the show on the road but impatience is rarely a wise teacher.
May 22nd, 2010 (9:45 am)I live in Vegas, its an awful place to meet women. Especially if you dont “party”.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (9:48 am)#44..CDAVIS You could not have stated the real customer base better! Hope GM is reading our comments. We think you have designed a great CAR. “The customer is always right.” We believe you need to get this car to market in quantity ASAP. :+}
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (9:48 am)Excellent point. Now, back to my tweets, facebook, and gm-volt.com.
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (9:51 am)Used to look at Statik’s input as being overly pesimistic and just more gloom and doom. His themes and projections turn out to be about 95% accurate. It’s best to look at the information as presented and think tank solutions and alternate routes. GM is fortunate to have a watch dog. Yes men are good at collecting pay checks and sitting at lunch tables.
=D-Volt
May 22nd, 2010 (9:55 am)Lyle, you are spot on. I have closed several of my posts this way:
Go Volt, Floor it GM.
Isn’t there an old saying, he who dithers loses market share because buyers want it and want it NOW!!
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (10:01 am)Statik , I have always enjoyed your posts . The way you wrote this piece and also knowing that GM reads this site sound to me like you’re egging GM to get off their dead ass and put the price out !! That’s fair enough with the Nissan Leaf sucking some of the fun , excitement from the launch of the Volt. Nissan 12,0000 to 16,000 sales looks good it’s really just a drop in the bucket compared with the 65,000 to 100,000 that the VOLT needs to be successful . I will wait for the Volt because it’s the only Vehicle that fits my lifestyle and needs , six months or six years.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (10:02 am)I see your point, as of now Nissan has done little if anything tangible more than GM, however, the main difference between Nissan and GM is that Nissan recognizes they’re not going to be able to keep up with the early adopters for several years and are trying to ramp up as fast as possible by getting other factories online. GM is saying they’ll build 8,000 cars the first year (8,000?) and maybe 15-20,000 the next year etc. There’s people all over the world that are ready for change and GM doesn’t seem to care, they’re sticking with only a couple thousand cars a year.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (10:06 am)I can see that a lot of people (myself included) are moving right along with today’s “hi speed” life. We all seem to be wanting the newest bigger, better, faster whatever not now but RIGHT now..
As mentioned in some of the other comments… if GM does not have the truck/car I want at one dealership…. and I have to order it….chances are 90 % likely that I will go to another supplier (Ford, Toyota etc) and pick something up off the lot.
Granted … most of the big guys have a dealer network so that if you are looking for a particular vehicle with certain options… it usually can be found at another dealership somewhere in the country.
That is how I got my 07 MAXX and now my 2010 Fusion Hybrid. My local dealers did not have what I wanted but were willing to ship it in for me.
And the wait was less than a week to get it.
As for me getting a Volt… I have space on my driveway for it. (no garage) … I will be keeping my 2010 Fusion Hybrid as it is a bigger car. (lifetime average after 24,000 KMS is 53.2 MPG Canadian or 44.4 MPG US..and that is impressive to me) And trouble free with a couple of minor new car glitches.
I only paid $33,500 Canadian for this car and am hoping that the Volt (when it arrives in 2013 ish will be priced accordingly.. If not…. It is going to take some serious mileage figures to justify itself to me…
After all I know what I am getting in “real life mileage” with the Fusion Hybrid.
just my 2 cents
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (10:23 am)It is good that GM is not pressured in releasing info about the Volt.
The Leaf is a different animal and is not really in direct competition with the Leaf. Those early so call “adopters” know the difference between the two cars and will not jump into buying the Leaf if the Volt is really what they want. A few extra months of waiting will not make much difference. It’s foolish to think that this will make a big difference! As for myself, even if the Leaf were out today, I would never buy such a limited car. When the infrastructure is in place and with much faster charging time, only then would I consider buying one. I’m sure most people will think that way when the time comes.
The big hype about the Leaf is all what it is. I predict initially the Leaf will sell but after that, the sales will peter down to very little. In short the Leaf will be a big failure.
+7
May 22nd, 2010 (10:26 am)What’s a little odd about this thread is that it’s likely that Nissan will deliver FEWER Leafs than GM will Volts during the first couple of years, and perhaps after that date as well.
If you look at Nissan’s plans, for 2011 and most of 2012 all Leafs will be imported from Japan where production is limited. At some point during 2012 production will start at the Smyrna plant. Nissan has said that this will allow them to produce hundreds of thousands of Leafs but the math is a little dicey. Right now Smyrna is probably turning out 150,000 vehicles. That’s not realistic because we’re in quite the contraction. When Smyrna was humming it was probably turning out 400,000 vehicles. But that included cars and trucks. There are two assembly lines, one dedicated to trucks and one to cars. The Leaf will share the assembly line for cars with the Altima and the Maxima. Those are decent cars so, assuming the economy is more or less healed by 2013, the capacity for Leafs might be 65,000 units. Maybe more but short of the 150,000 number you’ve seen bandied about.
So what will GM be doing during this time frame? GM will make/sell about 9000 Volts in 2010 and 2011. That’s more Volts than the 5000-70000 Leafs that Nissan will import/sell Leafs. (The percentage lead may be high but the volumes of both cars will be so low that small differences in absolute number won’t be that large.) In 2012, even assuming a slow ramp up for Volt production, GM will make/sell significantly more Volts than Nissan will import/sell Leafs. So that leaves 2013. If demand is half what I think it will be, and if GM decides to move, it should be in a position to make/sell more Volts than Nissan can make/sell Leafs. Personally I hope both companies make tons of these cars and sell every last one of them but looking at the math it seems that if demand is high GM will have a sales number advantage.
The big difference is the way management is approaching the problem. Ghosn is saying: “We intend to make and sell 500,000 EVs in 2013 and here is how we’re going to do that (works even if the “how” part is a bit weak). GM management is hemming and hawing and saying: “Stay tuned”. GM needs to be more forceful. The fact that they’re not leaves you wondering if they are in fact undecided about the Volt.
+9
May 22nd, 2010 (10:27 am)For every million gallons of crude spewing into the gulf you can add 1,000 people to the list who will buy a Volt for no other reason than the utter distate for that continuing unfortunate spectacle.
Not only is there pent-up demand for EV’s, there is pent-up anger over our addiction to fossil fuels.
Lyle, here’s an idea for a reader survey: Which will come first, the capping of the BP spill or GM’s announcement of the Volt’s price? Both are taking too damn long!
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (10:30 am)I believe GM is making the right decision by limiting the volume. I predict that the Leaf will have some quality issues that will come back and create a large PR problem. The Leaf is under engineered to get cost down but may come back to hurt them in long run. Time will tell, but the Leaf is this mystery car that I do not trust. With GM being open and having many people drive it during the whole development process, I can trust in purchasing it. Also will be interested in seeing how many on the Leaf reservation will really end of purchasing the car after they get a chance to see and test drive it. Also how much negetive PR will result when owners find how much the range will be limited in winter time. To many unknowns on the Leaf.
+26
May 22nd, 2010 (10:32 am)GM is always first to announce, last to launch. Corporate issue. They will launch a fantastic, well done, well designed, highly tested model likely to be the benchmark using EREV. Lest we not forget, they just went thru bankruptcy and a host of problems. The car is coming, and true, I will not wait endlessly either. The world is drinking from the cup of Middle-East oil addiction and for me personally, as a retired Air Force veteran, is unthinkable. The young men and women now serving behind me in the Air Force are part of the family of Americans serving and I owe it to them to help steer away from what is causing them and our nation harm. Our addiction to oil is equivalent to millions of future roadside explosives and I will do my part.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED. May God help all the car companies bring us to a new fuel source.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (10:33 am)GM is always first to announce, last to launch. Corporate issue. They will launch a fantastic, well done, well designed, highly tested model likely to be the benchmark using EREV. Lest we not forget, they just went thru bankruptcy and a host of problems. The car is coming, and true, I will not wait endlessly either. The world is drinking from the cup of Middle-East oil addiction and for me personally, as a retired Air Force veteran, is unthinkable. The young men and women now serving behind me in the Air Force are part of the family of Americans serving and I owe it to them to help steer away from what is causing them and our nation harm. Our addiction to oil is equivalent to millions of future roadside explosives and I will do my part to end this weapon against Democracy.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED. May God help all the car companies bring us to a new fuel source.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (10:58 am)With the limited production planned, many will have to wait for the VOLT. 2012 models will be improved and if cheap fuel exists for our existing ICE cars, waiting will be a lot easier.
Tesla is offering leases on roadsters for existing Model S buyers who have ordered. That’s one way to enjoy EV today and avoid the waiting game.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (11:21 am)I hope GM’s real demographic for the early adopter is a little more sophesticated. No – the early adopters are not just hollywood stars and politicians. And no, foreign politicians will not buy a Volt if it is not made in their country.
Here is what Nissan thinks about their early adopters.
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (11:24 am)Take a deep breath and calm down. GM will sell every Volt they can manufacture for the first three years. And not a single one will be ordered for dealer inventory — they’ll all be preorders.
In a conversation this morning with five running buds, range anxiety was an absolute deal breaker. Period. The Leaf isn’t a threat to Volt sales.
May 22nd, 2010 (11:26 am)
May 22nd, 2010 (11:45 am)Whenever there’s a “shift in the paradigm,” the establishment never understands it right away (Other carmakers are even farther behind GM and Nissan).
Relax…production at the Hamtramck plant can be vamped up if needed. Also, range anxiety and quality issues may hamper Leaf sales.
Regards…Go Volt! George, Sudbury, Ont., Canada
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (11:48 am)Ummm… Yeah. We all saw the MOVIE. Next comment please!
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (11:59 am)Don’t forget the whole 230MPG debacle. GM’s marketing has sadly, been a disaster. If they had just kept their mouths shut about the mileage under the pending rules, they could have sold the car with this mileage, but touting the “unbelievably true” number to an uninformed and skeptical public ruined their chances. The rules have now changed as a result of this marketing decision, even though all of us know that 230MPG is not only possible but practical!
How sad. The volt is an Engineering feat and everyone at GM has done a remarkable job to bring it in on time as promised. If marketing blows it I will be so disheartened. A lot has changed for the better at GM over the last year but their marketing is still old style GM. What’s going on? You’ve changed GM. Show the world!
-1
May 22nd, 2010 (12:05 pm)Absolutely fell of the bus with the mention of Prius ownership. Ford Fusion hybrid and Honda Insight are 1 and 2.
Think gm volt dot com members should get a 24 hour shopping pass email notice head start on pre-ordering? It’s fair to say that at least 4000 Volt are promised at this point. These going to celebs, politicians, and sports figures. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that many were promised at Global Green. I would expect a flat $50k for each promised unit (loaded). Gm volt dot com will easily take the other 4000 at $37,499 base.
=D-Volt
May 22nd, 2010 (12:10 pm)With so few cars to sell the first year, should GM even do a big marketing rollout, other than for halo purposes? What would be YOUR business proposal to the GM Board?
May 22nd, 2010 (12:13 pm)
May 22nd, 2010 (12:18 pm)#49
Oh man, you just ruined all of my illusions! I think that you had better watch your back pal, the Chamber of Commerce may come gunning for you, LOL.
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (12:26 pm)Statik: You’ve barbecued GM’s marketing strategists. Certainly what we’re seeing are consequences to Whitacre’s marketing shuffle. Song to the tune…
“Oh, it’s a long, long while from May to December…But the days grow short when you reach September…When the autumn weather turns the leaves to flame…One hasn’t got time for the waiting game…Oh, the days dwindle down to a precious few…September, November…And these few precious days I’ll spend with you..” [September Song, 1938 from "Knickerbocker Holiday."]
The schedule is what it is. It takes time to write SOP’s (Standard Operating Procedures), train techs, marketing orientation, and so forth. Conversely, GM obviously’s lacking a cohesive EV policy which reflects on VOLT and puts all EV buyers including LEAF on notice.
Note I said ‘buyers’. ‘Early Adopters’ (c.1962) connotes early product risk. Called an ‘Early Adopters Tax’. True. LEAF buyers surely are ‘Early Adopters’. However, with VOLT — GM’s taken three years plus to make such first-buyer risk’s near zero.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (12:27 pm)I’ll wait. As I’ve said here about 100 times, I’m not buying a Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, et al, now or ever.
Having said that, I’m obviously in a very small minority in SoCAl, and Nissan is making GM look pathetic with its LEAF “preorder” program. How sad.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (12:44 pm)No advertising required at all. Just a press release stating where, when, how much. They won’t be able to build enough for years. Why waste money on advertising?
The main problem with advertising is that they will only create more angry customers who cannot buy one.
-1
May 22nd, 2010 (12:50 pm)Because it helps to sell OTHER GM cars.. I would be worried if I did not see lots and lots of Volt ads.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (1:22 pm)Perhaps GM is more brilliant than the others. Instead of catering to the small niche of people who can tolerate range anxiety and can afford a “secondary utility vehicle,” GM is looking at a bigger audience of people who want an electric car that can fit into the existing infrastructure and also do everything that their current ICE car does (i.e., long journeys).
The Leaf cannot leave town at all, and the plug-in Prius cannot operate without gasoline (except short trips around the neighborhood). These are lame in comparison to the Volt.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (1:26 pm)Here is an interesting article on the Volt from inside GM.
They are very anxious to get 100,000 orders!
http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=111&sid=1963386#
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (2:04 pm)“If I didn’t know better, I would say they don’t care. That they don’t have any interest in cultivating a deep order book…and that might just be the case.”
I don’t think GM cares that much at this stage because they know they will sell every Volt they make in the next year or two. They will not be losing any sales to Nissan, because even if Nissan didn’t exist, GM won’t make enough cars to fill the demand anyway.
Fast forward 2 years, and I think at that point GM will not want to lose sales to Nissan, because at that stage they may be producing a lot more cars, and don’t want them sitting on dealer lots.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (2:05 pm)From the 1st paragraph:
” … how many sales is GM losing by delaying this announcement and sale of the Volt?”
Ah, yes indeed. And it this very issue that I have taken to continuously commenting on, namely that GM’s advertising and efforts to prepare the consumer for this game changing vehicle have been lackluster and for the most part nonexistent.
And it is this that scares me, because the good folks at GM are well aware of the power & effect of advertising. It almost makes me feel that they want the Volt to fail.
I’m sorry, but that’s the vibe I’ve gotten on this from day 1
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (2:13 pm)Here’s what GM could do now: 1) announce NOW a real and specific date in the not so distant future – say August 31st or September 1st on which they will 1) announce their Volt pricing 2) start taking deposits and orders – for anyone and any dealer in the USA and 3) announce they are expaning thier initial production beyond the 8,000 or so as the deposits warrant. They could even start NOW with a sign up campaign like Nissan did so those on the sign up list could be -in August 31st or September 1st (or some such date soon) – the first to put their $100 dollar refundable deposit down.
How hard is all that? Not hard at all.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (2:14 pm)#79
Great link! +1
Just steal Nissan’s idea and open the order book. That’s the way to find out.
Guy Incognito: And it is this that scares me, because the good folks at GM are well aware of the power & effect of advertising. It almost makes me feel that they want the Volt to fail.
#81
“Never invent a conspiracy theory to explain something which can be explained by simple incompetence.”
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (2:17 pm)#82
Amen! +1
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (2:21 pm)GM claims a 230 MPG city estimate. There is an immediate backlash because we know nothing about the operating efficiency of CS-mode. 9 months later, they’re pretending that never happened and we still don’t know anything about CS-mode, city or highway.
Leaving important questions unanswered is not open.
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (2:31 pm)I may be wrong, but GM’s engineering development investment in the Volt seems to follow the pattern for a high volume car not a low volume car, and yet, their first year’s production is low. What gives?
If I were to guess, I would say they’ve planned in a path to ramp up their production if the demand is there, but not put out the capital early for various accounting, programmatic, and risk mitigation reasons. For example, aren’t they just running one shift on the Volt line? Wouldn’t it be easy to ramp that up to three? I also seem to remember that they’ve planned in extra battery manufacturing capacity.
In short, if the Volt sells well (and I think it will) there won’t be a shortage for long. GM will have the ability to meet the demand in short order.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (2:34 pm)I know I’m eagerly waiting to do a test drive of the Volt once it comes to a dealership near me. Gotta admit, it’s going to be hard to wait until November though. Time goes SLOW as hell when you’re waiting.
I guess I can wait it out though. I want GM to make SURE that the Volt is as perfect as they can get it. I’d love to see GM have a MONSTER hit the Volt … selling hundreds of thousands worldwide in the next year or so.
I just saw this episode of “Ultimate Factories” on National Geographic. It was one of the best documentaries about the Volt development process that I’ve seen. Hopefully, NatGeo will put it on again so you can DVR it. Maybe you’ll be able to watch it on the NatGeo website soon.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/ultimate-factories/4905/Overview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Iemv55RCk
May 22nd, 2010 (2:46 pm)The Volt has been in development for a long time. I cannot recall any other car company that has been this open about the development of a new car and a game changer.
You are correct that in some areas of Volt development GM has not been quite as transparent. I do not know why… but could probably speculate… as a lot of us do on this blog. (which is very good BTW)
As all know we are still waiting for more – specifications, pricing, ordering options, production numbers, MPG numbers, etc.
So as they say “stay tuned” for more developments…. :+]
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (2:47 pm)#85
Yeah, that is a bit troubling, I must admit.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (2:56 pm)#59
I sure hope so. +1
The stuff is really starting to come ashore now. The photos of the oiled birds are showing up on MSN. it is enough to make one weep for sure. God help the Gulf coast, and all of us, come to that.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (2:57 pm)Yesterday Lyle used a picture I myself have used here on a post, and someone else also listed a photo of the Volt Concept next to the EV-1.
I hope that imagery sticks in some minds here, because it’s about time we start to contemplate whether the Volt EREV is just another conceptual excercise and not a full-intent production vehicle.
With Leaf due out soon, and even with it’s obvious limitations, racking up thousands of sales, it makes less and less and less sense that GM is leaking out a few thousand Volts in three states. By now, it is probably lingering in many minds that GM will unveil a lease-only plan, and that it will begin rolling out it’s “it was too expensive and didn’t have a large enough market” speeches to media outlets.
Yesterday’s VoltEV article was classic in that it showed a very credible person quoting a very credible person at GM only to find vague, unsubstantial rhetoric coming back from the corporation. If any Volt finds larger production numbers, I predict it will be all electric without the “range extender”. There just really is no longer any believable justification for GM’s lackluster rollout and meager production numbers.
Everyone here who is hanging on that one fine, sweet day when Volt’s price is released, may be in for one really big shock. The better GM’s conventional cars sell, the less likely it is to commit to full-blown Volt production.
Waiting and waiting, hoping and hoping that GM will provide us something to truly give us reasons to laud them and not wonder if they’re actually going to make the *&^% car has gotten old. But as the days/weeks/months go by, it’s getting olderrrr and olderrrr…
Seriously, the only thing that has spurred on all this negativity is this hanging carrot they have placed in front of our noses, added to the fact that it has announced such meager, lowly production plans for the first two years!
It just makes zero sense.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
May 22nd, 2010 (3:05 pm)Early adopters who buy the Leaf over the Volt are making a fool’s choice. Go right on ahead if you please, I say. Enjoy your purchase; I’ll wait for something I’ll be happier owning.
I agree the Leaf will sell at the beginning but in the long run sales will slow to a trickle. I have no problem with GM waiting to pound the drums – they have shown a more realistic approach than Nissan has towards the overall market for these vehicles, no small thanks to GM’s EV1 experience.
Therefore, I trust GM more than I trust Nissan to come through in the long run. The EREV approach is far superior to the simple BEV concept, it is destined for success. And I want a piece of that success. The Volt is going to make automotive history…. the Leaf will be just a footnote.
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (3:40 pm)I think Americans will prefer the Volt to the Leaf 4 to 1 when both cars reach full production and distribution.
May 22nd, 2010 (3:45 pm)I think the Volt would make a lousy “halo” car. Halo cars are high end like top Cadillac, fully loaded SUV or Corvette, You can dream about your ultimate desire and go down to your local dealership and buy a low cost and affordable version. This does not apply to the Volt. A Cruze is not a cheap Volt. A Malibu won’t allow you to snub your nose at gas stations.
May 22nd, 2010 (3:50 pm)Which is exactly why I believe Rod Pederson when he says full production in second half of 2011.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (4:00 pm)Warren Buffetts three I’s. GM is the innovator, Nissan is the imitator, let’s see who the idiots are. Who cares if they are first to the market. 95 percent of the U.S. Cares nothing about this little first reservation battle and when these Volts start rolling out there’s gonna be so much news people won’t give a crap about the leaf. And it does matter what politicians and celebs drive. And this car looks so much better than a leaf. Again, relax people. I can’t honestly beleive Statik is this neurotic. I don’t think he is. We all know the best car will win and every one made the first few years will be sold anyways. GM doesn’t need to play games like Nissan.
May 22nd, 2010 (4:07 pm)Maybe they are planning the 4th of July as some have speculated here?
May 22nd, 2010 (5:14 pm)Well, we’ve been told to “stay tuned”. So we wait and debate.
1. Production: Could Rod Peterson’s statement about full production in mid 2011 have been a deliberate “this is no longer classified” or just his opinion?
2. Price: We have been told that this was highly dependent on the price of gas. Of course this was when Nissan’s LEAF was unknown. I would think GM has the inside track on gas price as Whitacre is on Moboil Oil’s board. They must have a very good idea where gas prices are going this summer. My guess is that it is not going up like they expected and didn’t factor in the LEAF effect. I have said all along that they need to make a profit (calculated at high volume), but what if that is now viewed as too high? I think base price will be $35,999 and be profitable 2nd half 2011. I expect that the quality and appointments of the Volt to be superior to the LEAF and a higher price is justified.
3. Take orders: On the day the price is announced. I believe the Nissan $99 price to reserve a LEAF was too low as many just use it as a hedge. I think GM should require at least $500 to get a true picture of committed orders. If GM does this sooner, rather than later, they will get a good feel if the price is too high. If the orders are low, they might re-consider and drop the price a bit. They cannot re-adjust the price if the wait much longer.
My 2¢.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (5:21 pm)The EPA test provided the 230 mpg number. It appears the CS mpg during this test was about 46 mpg. When GM anounced the 230 mpg number. They went on to say that it would be higher by release date. The latest CS mpg we have read is 50 mpg. If the EPA uses the same measure to confirm the mpg of the Volt. It will rate higher than 230 mpg.
Many here have stated alternate means of listing mpg for the Volt. The EPA are the ones with the final say.
The bottom line is that many Volt owners will be refueling at the Arco station 2 or 3 times per year. This is a lot better than gasing the Prius three times each month. And is a lot more comfortable and fun to drive.
50 mpg CS for the Volt = 250 mpg EPA. Or 1/5 gallon for 50 miles.
=D-Volt
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (5:34 pm)Yes, I too have put down $99 on a Leaf, and it begins to appear that a commitment point will be coming this October with delivery quite possible before the end of the year. Nissan has promised us – all of us – test drives and approximate delivery dates this summer, and their dealers are quietly saying they will have some cars early in October.
I still want a Volt, and consider a Leaf a poor compromise, but as a two-car family we could make it work. If October arrives and GM still hasn’t given me a price and likely delivery date, and if Nissan is still coming through with its promises, GM will have lost me as a customer. A Volt delivery to me in November? Or even December? That would be wonderful, but at this point I don’t think there is a chance in ten thousand that it will happen.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (5:45 pm)Exactly my thoughts. GM makes millions of cars, not thousands. If they couldn’t make millions, they wouldn’t even try.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (6:04 pm)I think that there are a lot of people sharing my canoe (quit fidgeting, fellows); I wanted to get a Volt as quickly as possible, but now I find the deteriorating economy slap dab in my way (I was laid off). 12,000 sales lost to the LEAF? How many have been lost to the economy? Let’s not forget that launching a new technology costs money, and it’s in especially short supply these days.
Since I am forced to wait indefinitely anyway, I think I’ll wait for the car whose development I’ve had a virtual ringside seat for, the car I’ve actually driven, the car made in the USA. To choose an unknown ‘pig-in-the-poke’ mobile, about which barely two paragraphs is really known, sounds an awful lot like madness to me. We are all chafing at the bit right now, but need to recall that all of these problems and travails are over a period of time less than five years in duration. Nissan reality, Volt numbers, additional competitors; the world will look completely different before 2015 rolls around.
Still, I know there are those on this site intending to get a Nissan (we’ll see who gets their Volt or their LEAF first, there could be a shock coming, there); so I guess we’ll have a virtual ringside seat for their early-adopter experiences.
Like an improving economy, I think all we can really do is wait for the Volt, and hope for the best.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (6:06 pm)Nissan taking pre-orders seems pretty important to some people here. That doesn’t impress me all that much or shake me either. If Nissan had the cars parked and waiting at dealerships, that would be one thing. But they don’t.
Furthermore, it seems like more of the same old problem here with people and their perception of GM. If they rushed the Volt to market, and problems occurred, they are damned. If they are later to market than a competitor in an effort to build a better quality vehicle, they are damned again.
Can’t win for losing can they?
May 22nd, 2010 (6:13 pm)The Volt is “on track” to achieving “at least 50 mpg in CS mode,” according to Bob Boniface, the car’s chief designer. It is also said to be “comparable to” conventional hybrids. You know, like 51mpg for a certain turd-shaped Toyo probe that comes to mind.
Go home and suck on your Prius, John. We all know you’re here because of Toyo and Prii; but let’s consider what is known about the Volt verses the next to nothing known about the LEAF … you know. What the thread is about?
May 22nd, 2010 (6:15 pm)It was on today at 2:PM in the Detroit area. I was out at the time and missed it.
-2
May 22nd, 2010 (6:19 pm)Yea GM needs to do something here. To me it seems they are happy and fat with the food stamp/ welfare money from the gov and are a bit lazy, kinda like most unemployed lazy people on food stamps and welfare
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (6:25 pm)Zach, I hadn’t heard of your job loss.
Sorry. I hope your financial situation is restored quickly.
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (6:26 pm)“The EREV approach is far superior to the simple BEV concept, it is destined for success.” This statment is totally correct & true. However, having lived through the 70′s & 80′s the following statemnet was also true…The BETAMAX approach is far superior to the simple VHS concept, it is destined for success. Beta is still around in limited quantities. Product marketing is the key here. With limited quantities & high sticker price the VOLT will succeed just like BETA has…
Even Maximum Bob said that pure EVs (Tesla being his inspiration for the VOLT ) will be the future…
GO EV!!!
+8
May 22nd, 2010 (6:31 pm)I strongly believe what we are seeing with the Volt and other GM products is a reflection of the company’s lack of strategic vision to be the best in a particular segment and leverage that success to establish a GLOBAL brand identity, team ethos, and long-term profitability.
The Volt and the EREV technology is impressive and the development team behind the effort should be applauded. This team of dreamers and engineers have fought against the odds to develop a robust platform that could potentially be a market winner and a game changer.
History tells us that successful companies reinvest their profits in R&D during good times to develop the “next game changer” and introduce it in the marketplace when favorable conditions present themselves. In addition, successful companies adapt to the world around them incrementally to ensure long-term survivability. Here are a few challenges GM has to address:
– The Bankruptcy Thing….. The first step to a recovery by GM is the recognition that they went bankrupt due to mismanagement. The old branding model no longer works and GM still has cost structures tied to a GM of long ago. In addition, the competition (VW, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Nissan/Renault, Hyundai/Kia) successfully play in the global marketplace and can spread product development and risk across a global playing field. GM still needs to shrink it’s model lineup in the NA market to a few very profitable products over the next decade or the NA market will be a cost center drain on a global GM.
– The lack of a cohesive global development and branding strategy to allow for efficiencies-of-scale that ensure lower per unit costs (VW, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Nissan/Renault, Hyundai/Kia) will render GM uncompetitive and unable to have the necessary resources to generate large profits and new products. GM has a global presence but the offerings/products appear highly regionalized and cannot be sold in other GM markets (trucks/SUVs, MPVs, etc.). The NA market is not the fastest growing market anymore therefore platforms which cater only to that market take resources away from markets that offer long-term success for the brand. Illustration: http://www.bimmerfile.com/2010/05/20/editorial-who-else-but-bmw/#more-6850
– GM needs 3/5 successful global large volume products/platforms to generate revenue/profit to support emerging technologies and future product development (ie: VW Golf, Toyota Corolla/Camry, Honda Civic/Accord, Hyundai Sonata, Elantra).
– A clear premium product strategy for the New GM that signals to the world that GM can build products that compete with BMW, Lexus, MB, Audi, at the 60k-80k price point on the core metrics (technology, engineering, safety, drivetrain, NVH, and fit/finish). If Hyundai/Kia can rebuild their image, GMs failure to do so within a decade will fall at the feet of it’s new leadership.
I come to the site daily to learn from the contributors to the forum but in our excitement to see the Volt come to market, I am troubled by the marketing strategy behind the Volt
1) GM will lose money of the 1st generation Volt as Toyota did on the 1st generation Prius. That is why GM wants to keep the volume low and has delayed releasing pricing information. Remember Toyota subsidized the real cost/development of the first/second/third Prius vehicles over 18 years ago and across the profitable Toyota franchise. This bears repeating: four generations of profitable Camry sedans have supported Prius development. Post bankruptcy (government owned) GM probably does not have that option to carry/subsidize large volume Volt development and pre IPO strategy does not want to clearly show that cost on the books without a guarantee for ROI. Therefore generation one Volt may be a halo car driven by government officials, celebrities, and the wealthy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/04/06/money-losing-chevy-volt-will-stay-alive-even-if-it-cant-pay-th/
2) The Volt was born of Bob Lutz embarassment that Toyota was receiving so much praise (fair or unfair) for the Prius as a technology leader and through his leadership approach has made statements that have made branding the car more of a challenge
http://ww.autobloggreen.com/2007/12/10/videos-bob-lutz-says-toyota-will-have-egg-on-its-face-come-east/
http://www.egmcartech.com/2007/09/25/chevrolet-volt-0-60-in-less-than-6-seconds-says-lutz/
3) I’ve heard many speak of GMs transparency on the development of the Volt however I would make a distinction between the Volt development team vs GM the marketer and producer. Of course the engineers are proud of what has been created and the hurdles that have been crossed and want to tell the story BUT one can see from the logistical and marketing front, things look awkward at best: too many voices providing conflicting information. Let’s be clear GM is not the only car manufacturer building EV capability. The questions are:
What manufacturer will become the profitable volume leader in EV propulsion?
What manufacturer will be synonymous with electric propulsion in the mind of consumers?
What manufacturer will make the case that their product fills a void not met by any other company?
I want to have a Volt in my garage but GM is losing time and opportunity by not getting the Volt in front of the public in production trim with specifics (range, price, trim levels, etc.). Like others, I have a reservation for the Leaf and hope to have a plug-in vehicle by 2011.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/video/article300101.ece?vxSiteId=6247211d-66e0-4454-b73a-3f1610efa39a&vxChannel=Latest&vxClipId=1347_SUN44172&vxBitrate=300
Many have said the Leaf and Volt are not competitors, I disagree. In fact the GM Volt site informs me of such:
“When our engineers designed Volt, they wanted to find a battery range that would allow many people to drive gas-free much of the time. We took a look at the survey by the U.S. Bureau of Transportation Statistics and we found that more than 75% of people commute 40 miles a day or less. With that in mind, we developed Volt to meet most people’s basic driving needs while preserving their ability to drive on a pure electric charge most of the time”.
I am willing to wager that most people in America already have one vehicle at their home for trips in excess of 100 miles per day for up to five people (paid for and fully depreciated) and for trips to Home Depot, Costco, etc. Therefore, the sweet spot for the customer today is:
North America: Not the one-car-does-it-all owner profile but the secondary car for a homeowner with garage seeking a daily petroleum free experience with low maintenance (early adopter).
Europe/Japan: Homeowner seeking replacement of older gas/diesel vehicle who has access to a robust public transportation infrastructure for longer trips/travel.
Other: Car sharing service offering rental for limited usage in major urban centers (Chicago, Boston, NYC, London) where car ownership is impractical but having access to a car on occasion is wanted. Also, many cities across the globe are restricting access to the center city to cars due to pollution problems due to hydrocarbons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_car-free_places
I look forward to an EV infrastructure and the opportunity it will bring. A diversified automobile propulsion infrastructure will provide many benefits in the long run.
Those who ignore (or who are ignorant of) history are doomed to repeat it.
— George Santayana
Go Volt!!!!!
May 22nd, 2010 (6:58 pm)Your Betamax/VHS analogy doesn’t apply well to the upcoming EREV/BEV contest. Beta & vhs were two brand new solutions to a new and previously unfilled need; BEV’s have a history of trying and failing to earn market acceptance (much less replace gas engined automobiles) due to their limitations in range and recharging. The Leaf offers no new solutions to these problems.
The Volt does solve these problems. It’s not rocket science to understand why EREV is a far superior concept to BEV.
May 22nd, 2010 (7:02 pm)I apologize for missing it, but how much money would GM make on the intangibles created by making too many cars and trucks?
1) GM did not try to market the EV1 to meet demand for many of the reasons stated, but sold EV1′s only to meet the California Zero Emissions mandate, until the industry could weaken it enough to ignore it.
2) GM is not in the oil business – a little righteous anger can help people change things for the better, and and some interesting and factual information can help make better decisions along the way.
3) Keep contributing from your point of view.
+6
May 22nd, 2010 (7:06 pm)Here are some calculations that I have been working on for you guys. I am sure this will have an affect on deciding whether to be an ‘early adopter’ or not:
I apologize if these numbers bum anybody out.
-1
May 22nd, 2010 (7:08 pm)That last comment of yours is rather ironic. I’d say it would be Nissan who ought to take it to heart, not GM.
Don’t hold your breath waiting for that infrastructure you mentioned to become a reality. Meanwhile, I hope your Leaf works out for you.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (7:12 pm)Forgot to mention….
I figured these numbers at 4.90% and at ZERO%
The first is a typical ‘Top Tier’ rate for excellent credit.
The second (0.00% APR) is based on my guess that if GM is really going to produce such a SMALL number of VOLTs, then GMAC could probably be strong-armed by our current leaders to let it go at ZERO Percent Financing (OAC). Since ‘we the people’ bailed them out, it seems only fair to me.
+5
May 22nd, 2010 (7:17 pm)Correct me if I’m wrong but, isn’t the Leaf the first mass produced, highway capable & faster than nearly any legal US speed, reasonably affordable, lithium ion powered, conditioned battery pack based, cell and internet linked, grid powered, gps and charging station linked with advanced SOC algorithms, fast charge capable EV to gain wide release in NA? Color me silly if I deserve it, but that seems like a decent list of not solutions.
Best of luck to both companies and to the thousands who have signed up in one way or another for them. Hope to see you and many others on the road in the first generation of a true NPNS revolution.
May 22nd, 2010 (7:23 pm)We won’t know until we know. All of this hinges on the real production output plans for the Volt. If GM is really only going to produce 8000 first model year Volt. Then these units will sell to the rich and the famous. Folks who could care less about deals on financing. When Johnny Rich walks into a dealer and asks, “I want a black Volt, how much?”. He will get his black Volt. Joe Bluecollars will be looking at 2012 Volts. I am okay with this. I just want the wheels of the Volt on the road.
=D-Volt
+3
May 22nd, 2010 (7:29 pm)Bob #78
I believe your assessment has some truth. I am single with one car (Hyuandi Sonata). If I buy the Leaf I still need my Hyuandai, so buying the Leaf is probably not going to happen for me. Every vehicle has a target market and the Leaf and Volt will not be a solution for all. Most people will not buy the Leaf or Volt simply because it is relativly new. Buyers will wonder how often will it break down and how much to repair not to mention the amount of negative press that will be put out by various sources.
To me the best thing we can do it diversify our transportation. By having a mix of vehicles running on various fuels, we can not be held hostage by any one fuel source. People just need to remember what happened when gas was $4-5/Gallon and how everthing went up in price because transportation cost went up.
I think electric cars are our best bet because electricity can be produced by various methods. I hope to put solar panels on my house later this year and althought it may not provide all my electricity, it will help offset my energy usage.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (7:32 pm)Buying a car always bums me out. It’s a worse time and money sink than playing online games.
May 22nd, 2010 (7:42 pm)I’ve been thinking about GM’s policy change about building up too much stock and pushing them on dealers. I am sure the dealers are happy with the new policy in that they only get the cars they order. What the customer wants is to find the model, color, and options they want on the lot. Instant gratification.
Carrying every conceivable combination is too much stock. I was shocked to go on the GM web site and find that the Malibu was only available in several shades of grey/silver and one dark blue. Approaches are to limit the color choices and group options to limit option choices, or guarantee custom car shipments to dealer within one week. I think GM should look seriously at the last option.
Rather than over stocking dealerships, GM could have more stock at their plant with fast delivery to dealerships. Actual response would have to be very fast to allow for dealer prep in time to hand over to the customer on the 1 week schedule. Can you do it? People like choice.
May 22nd, 2010 (7:59 pm)You’re not factoring in the marketing concept of “NO EMISSIONS” and in this arena the VOLT can not compete. If you think that Nissan, Ford, and others are simply popping EVs on lots for sale, you haven’t been reading what car manufacturers are doing working with citys in helping to create the charging infrastructure. Check the I-5 by 2012 and I’m not talking 120V chargers, read 480V fast chargers popping up, but if you have a VOLT you still have the advantage of buying (cough, cough) gas if you’d like. It’s your choice!
Maximum Bob was right in the Tesla idea, but whoever added the gas portion to be used only occasionally, then whenever the VOLT thinks that it requires it, is where the tie to BIG OIL is at. Look at that BIG OIL spill and re-think the idea of pure EV. The VOLT was a great idea in 2007, but pure EV will surpass the range anxiety blah blah by 2013/2014.
The acceptance of the limited edition VOLTS and all other BEVs is underway. There’s no stopping it now.
GO EV!!!
Range anxiety = Oil dependency
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (8:18 pm)I’m sure the Leaf will be comfortable & up to date with its instrumentation and things, but it has less range than the gen 2 EV1, and it still takes half a day to recharge – so no, it doesn’t solve the main BEV issues which have and will continue to limit their market acceptance.
The Volt does solve at least the range issue, and will recharge in substantially less time than the Leaf. It also can be driven even if one forgets to plug in. The importance of these things is huge for the average buyer.
I know this thread focuses upon early adopters, but with all due respect to them, their choices won’t drive later buyers towards one or the other. The Volt has clear differences and huge advantages over the Leaf – these things will determine market acceptance in the long run.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (8:25 pm)I, for one, cannot wait for the Volt, and am hopefully early enough on the Leaf waiting list to get the car this year.
California’s $5000 clean vehicle rebate has only enough money for 820 electric vehicles, and if I try to wait for the Volt coming out end of this year, the money will probably run out, whereas I may actually have a chance with the leaf.
I’m a big volt fan and even have one of those miniature models, but GM really dropped the ball here by releasing the car behind their competitor, and also by not releasing the pricing.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (8:36 pm)That’s the typical green early adopter? Heck they’re the ones with higher than average environmental impact to begin with. Maybe it’s guilt.
+2
May 22nd, 2010 (9:05 pm)I ordered my 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid in May of 2008 when the 2009 models were first available to order. The 2008 model production run had sold out several months before. My 2009 was delivered the end of July 2008, so the wait was almost 3 months from order to delivery but the time from when I first tried to aquire a 2008 model was over 6 months. I am definitely not the normal consumer, I do my research and know what I want. I do think early adopters who truely understand the advantage of the EREV technology will be willing to wait a reasonable amount of time (maybe up to one year?) but eventually there will be similiar or better choices that negate the Volt’s advantage. I personally hope I can buy a Volt by early 2012 at the latest but I am willing and able to buy one on launch day!
-2
May 22nd, 2010 (9:24 pm)GM’s is only around to keep the US addicted to foreign oil.
An EV that burns gas, what a joke!!!
If GM would’ve kept with the drive to stay with the EV, they would have had at least a 200 mile range EV. The gen 2 EV-1 had a range 100-140 per wiki. But they need to keep us all addicted to the boys in the sand lands. Just like a crack dealer and their crackheads.
Range Anxiety = Dependent on foreign oil
May 22nd, 2010 (9:25 pm)Here is an interesting cross-reference. There is an article that ties the GM IPO to the release of the Volt. Link: http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2010/05/22/comfort-zone-investing-gm-comes-out/
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (10:04 pm)From the article … more doom and gloom! But of course, a pessimist always seems to look at a glass as “half empty”.
It’s only 5-6 months until the Volt goes on sale to the public. We’ve all waited this long. What is another few short months? Besides, the chances of getting an early Nissan Leaf is no different than getting an early Volt gen-1.
I’m not likely to be one of the fortunate few who will have an opportunity to purchase a Volt gen-1. So, I’ll just wait patiently in line until Volt gen-2 or gen-3 if necessary.
+1
May 22nd, 2010 (10:21 pm)I remember that one time that you actually contributed something useful to a thread here (and with no slime dripping from it); do you? It was a glorious thing. I actually voted for your comment, others did too.
However, it’s clear after that last comment above that we will never win you over; it’s all or nothing for the Proxy: no “gas-free for 83% of daily commutes” for you.
I’ve got a news flash for you: you won’t win anyone here over to your point of view either.
If all you come here to do is beat your drum (like Prius boy), you might as well save your electrons. You’re going to need them …
-1
May 22nd, 2010 (10:37 pm)What is really sad is GM had this lead in 2003. GM chose to abandon this lead and crush it in favor 100 year old unsustainable technology. I’m still trying to figure this one out. GM has no vision and if it weren’t for Tesla would still be trying to sell us Hummers and Tahoe’s.
The summer of 2008 proved this strategy to be totally wrong. When the gas prices shot up to over $4 a gallon. The product GM decided to back to the exclusion of all else no longer was the thing to have. GM had no back up plan and subsequently went looking for a hand out.
Even as the Volt program started GM was looking for a way to make it fail. And now that GM has realized the folly of its ways they are now playing catchup. Nissan is going to have a car that is comparable to the EV1 that GM crushed (recycled). The Leaf will be cheaper and on the market sooner.
But the Chinese are not going to be left out. The Weego Whip LiFe a freeway capable EV will beat both GM and Nissan to the market. Granted the top speed is only 65, but in city traffic how often can you reach 60?
+4
May 22nd, 2010 (10:39 pm)I’m thinkin’ two cars might be cheaper…
-1
May 23rd, 2010 (12:02 am)
May 23rd, 2010 (12:24 am)Not all wives are cost centers ….. LOL
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (12:34 am)========================================
I have no problem waiting a month or two for a vehicle I can order to my exact specs.
But that is not the case here. I do not have the option of ordering, or even being able to put down a deposit to reserve a place in line.
IMHO, Nissan has won the PR battle by simply letting people show that they are interested enough to put down a deposit. And it shows how much of a demand there really is!
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (12:53 am)Be sure to let us know how hard it is to wire that 480V fast charger into your garage. Or for that matter, to find one installed anywhere.
It is too soon to go absolutely gas free. Infrastructure really is pertinent to universal electric driving, and it will take decades to appear. Until then, you can hope to eliminate most petroleum use by relying on a BEV for local, short-distance commuting while keeping a gasser for longer trips — or, by buying a Volt.
May 23rd, 2010 (12:58 am)Yes. And the thing is with GM’s obligations at the time, structure, union contracts, VEBA, there was no possibility of a back-up plan that could have gotten them in the black. They were locked into, build a lot of trucks or go bankrupt. By 2008 it was build a lot of trucks and go bankrupt.
May 23rd, 2010 (1:14 am)Sorry for the confusion Zack. Just wanted to make sure that people reading here don’t get the impression that the LEAF & VOLT charge at different rates. Both will charge at the same rate using the same voltage. It’s just that Nissan has the 480V fast charger capability, unlike the VOLT.
Since I’ve paid my $99 deposit (too bad GM dealers wouldn’t take my deposit for a VOLT) to reserve my LEAF, Nissan is only installing a 220 volt charger in my garage. The 480V chargers are being installed at locally Nissan dealerships and throughout the city were possible. With my daily commute being only 30 miles round trip (plus with the ability to charge for free at 120V at work), I’ll always start driving with 100 mile range no matter were I go…
The LEAF just works better for me than spending more for the VOLT for less electric range.
And as per you’re comment, I’m still keepin the gasser for when I NEED to go longer than 100 miles a day(twice a year for me!)
No gas in my future!!
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (1:24 am)Keeping a gasser in running condition for two trips a year is likely to be a challenge. To keep your gas from going stale, be sure to use a stabilizing additive. Even with this, you’ll need to turn the mill over from time to time in order to drive moisture out of the oil, lubricate the seals, etc. Of course, you’ll need to pay for it’s insurance regardless of how few trips you make in it.
Incidentally, the Volt does not need a stabilizing additive, as it has a sealed, pressurized fuel system to prevent premature oxidation of the fuel. It handles the occasional “maintenance” turn-over of the engine automatically when (rarely) needed, as you are driving.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (1:28 am)Either Tagamet’s portable toy didn’t work out, or his wife has confiscated the device in order to enforce a true vacation.
The Site Misses You, Tag!
Have a good trip, and we’ll look for you to return soon.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (5:04 am)I just bought a 2010 Toyota Prius (even though I want a Volt).
The reason is based on several things:
1) My belief that the GM Dealers will place a $5,000 to $10,000 premium on the Volt(s) they have in stock. (This is to prevent the Volts from “flying off” the Dealership Floor, so they can allow as many people as possible to test drive the Volt and then flipping the prospect into another car or take an order for deliverly at a later date).
2) Toyota currently agressively dealing on the Prius price after the bad press they go in the past four months
3) My old Toyota 2005 Prius exceeding 115,000 miles–I could not wait till November for fear that something would break on the Prius with no warrantly in place to cover the expense.
Hopefully GM will offer an extra incentive for people trading-in late model Hybrids for a Volt
+3
May 23rd, 2010 (6:18 am)I obviously live in a different world from you guys. In my world, 95% of all households have at least two adults living in them. And most of those adults drive autos. Nearly all of those households already have at least two vehicles, and will continue to have more than one.
The issue in my household is typical in this regard at least. We have an aging Civic and a newer Prius. We’re not about to try to get along with a single car. For us it’s going to be either a Prius and a Volt, or a Prius and a Leaf. Either way we’ll still be burning some gas. Either way we’ll want to save gas by using as much electricity as possible. How well we manage to optimize that equation remains to be seen, and the challenges of doing so will differ depending on which EV we have. But it’s shades of gray, definitely not black and white.
My original naive assumption was that of course we would use less gas if we had the Leaf. It turns out that probably is not true, in our case, because of the mix of miles driven that we actually have. We often drive each of our vehicles less than 30 miles a day. We sometimes drive one of them more than 100 miles. We only occasionally drive between 40 and 80 miles.
So I think the Volt will be better for us, both (in a small way) for our gasoline budget and in a broader way for our contribution to weaning the US from its oil addiction. Unfortunately, I fear – but don’t know – that from a financial perspective the Volt will be more expensive, and worry, from a practical standpoint, if the old Civic is going to last long enough without major surgery.
I don’t normally think of myself as an early adopter, but this time I need a car soon, and I’m determined to make it an EV. That’s why I need some reassurance on price and delivery date. Nissan has given me a price, and before the summer is over I should have a pretty good idea about Leaf delivery. The ball is in your court, GM.
May 23rd, 2010 (6:34 am)Can I use my “GM-Volt-Card” Dollars?
The Beauty of a Volt…
Massive Production
May 23rd, 2010 (6:38 am)Or GM confiscated Tag and made him a secret Volt test driver…
May 23rd, 2010 (6:39 am)1) Who knows what might happen in the future? A person’s guess does not make it a fact!
2) The Toyota “bad press” was in regards to “brakes”, not “price”. Please keep a close eye on those brakes, floor mats, etc.
3) My old Caddy, that I traded in 2 1/2 years ago, had nearly 200,000 miles on it with few problems. When one pays close attention to “normal/scheduled” maintenance, it can extend the life of most cars well beyond the 115,000 miles you were concerned about.
Best to you! Hope that Prius serves you and family well. As for me, I’ll just wait my turn for a Volt.
+1
May 23rd, 2010 (6:46 am)If you really only need to go further than 100 miles only twice, keeping an ICE for that would be terribly expensive and inefficient. You would be much better served to rent a car or use Zip Car if they are in your area. Besides, I hope most people realize the Leaf WILL NOT go 100 miles of real world driving. It went 100 miles using the EPA LA-4 cycle which has proven to get results that are 20-30% higher than what a real life driving experience will give. When you filled out your online reservation do you remember the question that asked how far do you need to drive in a day? If you put 100 miles it said “this car may not be right for you” because Nissan knows it will not go 100 miles per charge. I like the Leaf and am considering buying one, but make no mistake about it, the car will not get 100 miles per charge. Expect 70-75 miles of regular driving if you do some highway and some city and drive it fairly conservatively. That is still enough for many folks, but it’s not a 100 mile car.
May 23rd, 2010 (6:58 am)Itching4it said:
The ball is in your court, GM.
I think the problem is that the only ball GM has to play with is still looked on as untested, and makes them afraid to play with it. Of course, that’s better than some companies that have no balls at all.
May 23rd, 2010 (7:01 am)This is what I like to hear…
Hopefully this is the case. Along with a roll out with a price etc, a clear plan on how delivery’s will be filled. I think Tag is on a secret mission to prepare for a Roll-Out on the 4th. Big party at the local dealership on that day when all will be disclosed.
May 23rd, 2010 (7:04 am)I agree with all you said up to that last paragraph. Actually, the ball is still in your court. Nissan has given you a price for the Leaf and you’ll have a price from GM by the end of summer. Neither company has given you a delivery date.
If your old Civic has under 200,000 miles and has been well maintained, it should last a while longer. My brother has close to 300,000 on his. My brother-in-law had even more miles on his Civic before he traded it off for a new one.
As for me, I’m in a fairly good position, having traded cars 2 1/2 years ago. My wife and I can wait our turn for a Volt. But, we’re in a little different situation than you. We are retired and have downsized to a single vehicle
. We need a car that can serve all our needs and a Volt will do that just fine, even though I would have preferred a 5-seater, longer extended range and a larger trunk for all that “stuff” my wife insists on taking on those extended trips.
Our daily routine (M-F) typically involves travel of less than 40 miles/day. But, there are a few days here and there where even a 100-mile range is not enough. Then comes the weekends. There would definitely be “range anxiety” with a 100-mile range of a Leaf. And, extended trips would just be out of the question — not good!
+2
May 23rd, 2010 (7:31 am)A Chinese car? Are you friggin kidding? If you hadn’t noticed there tend to be a lot of corners cut in Chinese products brought to the US with market undermining pricing.
May 23rd, 2010 (8:41 am)Then we can agree to disagree.
Remember that we’re not talking retail prices here. I’m talking about what it costs GM.
My $2000 estimate includes the exhaust system and fuel system. You still need a cooling system for the battery. The water pump runs on electricity, it’s not connected to the ICE.
A regular generator costs around $30. For a 53kW generator, at similar mass unit volumes (i.e. quantities in the millions), I would guess around $250. Now account for the fact that it’s still a specialty item, and I would estimate around $500 for generator.
I suspect GM is padding up the Volt’s price for early adopters. Many people will pay more to be the first one on the block to own a Volt.
May 23rd, 2010 (10:57 am)No disrespect here, Dave …. but “…95% accurate” ?? Source, please. You’ll note that I quickly jotted down some of Statik’s most high-profile errors in his claims …. perhaps you can list some of his most accurate insights – I don’t spend as much time here as most of you – educate me.
And Statik – no response at all ?
May 23rd, 2010 (5:52 pm)Been posting here since before the current Volt body was revealed. I will not go into detail on Statik’s views and predictions. The reason I am familiar with his predictions is that I sometimes take the alternative view. Which is usually more optimistic. There are very few points that haven’t played out.
=D-Volt
May 23rd, 2010 (10:49 pm)agree 100%. Even Lutz thinks it’s only the “costals” – he said as much – and he’s our man! What the??!?. I may not look like George Clooney, or have a place in Italy, but I, and millions of other fly-overs have money just as green [like that?] as anyone else!
Seriously
May 24th, 2010 (12:33 am)So… What’s the actual ship date of the Leaf? I couldn’t find the date on their website. Maybe they’ve told the people who’ve put down deposits? If so then OK, but if not then I reject the premise.
People are still waiting for BOTH cars; they’re only just getting to spend their money earlier for one. But even if the leaf ships, what, 2 months earlier? They’re still in quantities as limited as the volt, aren’t they? I just don’t see how the leaf has any real ‘early’ adopter advantage.
We’ll, I’m an early adopter and I’ll buy a Volt as soon as I can get one for a price reasonably close to whatever MSRP is (I may be an early adopter, but I don’t have THAT much extra money). I don’t feel there’s any real difference in “early adopting qualities” between the volt and the leaf.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (2:40 am)Officially, December, though Lance Armstrong has been told he will get one in October, and apparently dealers will be getting demo cars about that same time.
Does 12,000 by March and 50,000 by October 2011 sound like Volt numbers to you?
+1
May 24th, 2010 (7:32 am)I think this whole release date thing is overblown, for no other reason than the fact that 99% of people don’t simply choose to buy a new car at a random point in time when the mood strikes. Rather, they buy a new car only a certain milestone; i.e. they paid off their car loan, their car lease is up, their high mileage car needs expensive repairs that just don’t seem worth it, etc. Therefore, the real answer here is that people will buy a Volt or LEAF not based on its release date, but rather when it is time to purchase their next car. And then the best platform (EREV) will win out. People who have the financial means to make more of an unplanned “impulse” purchase of a car based on release date are such a small percent of the population that I would hazard to say it will have no effect on the overall success of either platform. It’s all about the long battle ahead.
May 24th, 2010 (7:42 am)I too will be waiting for the Flex Fuel version… Why would i buy now knowing that in the few cases i do need the RE – I would be supporting the likes of the Gulf Oil Spill and hostile countries (and Canada – which im OK with). Nearly every station in my city has an E85 pump which contains fuel made within 50 miles of there for signifigantly cheaper than gasoline. GM – I will wait for Flex Fuel Volt… My deposit is waiting…
May 24th, 2010 (7:49 am)Hmmm – help me with this … you believe Statik’s “predictions” or “insights” are 95% accurate, yet you can’t list them ? Despite the fact we would both agree ( Statik, too, for that matter) that he has predicted 1) Volt was “Vaporware” – he was adamant about this in the “early years” 2) Volt would NOT launch by November 2010 3) GM was covering up problems with the range extender and 4) GM was “covering up” problems that kept it from launching this spring ( his logic was that since the prototype vehicles were on the road, they must have been ready for launch). Do the math, Dave – clearly these four major “fails” on Statik’s part must mean ( by your 95% “Statik correct” estimate ) – that Statik has been “correct” on 80 or so of his countless conspiracy theories. I guess I’ve been frequenting this site longer than you, albeit not as often – because I can’t remember a half-dozen. Just list me a half-dozen, then, of his most insightful correct conspiracy theories. Just 6 . Feel free to help him, Statik.
+2
May 24th, 2010 (9:10 am)Statik said: “If I didn’t know better, I would say they don’t care. That they don’t have any interest in cultivating a deep order book…and that might just be the case.”
—————————————————————–
I think you hit it right on the head, Statik. GM does not care. They will only make a paltry 8,000 Volts over the next year and every one of them will get purchased very quickly. They may get a great big surprise when they try to sell the next batch after that. The early adopters, like you and me, may be driving some other electric vehicle and will not be in the market for a few more years.
Wake up, GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 24th, 2010 (10:06 am)———
Measure twice, cut once ! How many Volts will they sell long-term if major quality problems surface ( ans: not many ). How much more difficult is an EREV to develope and engineer than a BEV ( much, much more difficult ). GM is in this game for the long haul – Statik is just doing what he does – standing on a soapbox trying to attract attention. Dissapointing so many fall prey to his shallow thinking.
+1
May 24th, 2010 (10:47 am)LOL. I hear you! I love shopping for a car; It’s buying one that I hate!
May 24th, 2010 (5:07 pm)GM,
Here is how to save several million $ on marketing research and advertising expense as well as provide some capital. Run this ad for free here:
If you would like to be in line for a Volt, we are forming an initial purchasers list. The retail price will be $40,000 and a 50% deposit to your local dealer is required. Be aware that after the initial purchasers list has been satisfied subsequent vehicles will be available to the general public at lower prices.
GM can then get a realistic assessment of interest. Maybe I could get a Volt! Looking unlikely one will be available to me under the current production proposals.
May 24th, 2010 (8:07 pm)I think I get you don’t like me much, and that is ok, not everyone does.
However, I have never, ever said the Volt was vaporware and/or will not be built, I have 3,000 odd comments here (a lot less lately)…please feel free to hunt through them to prove me wrong.
I will admit that I did say that I felt there would be no Volts in the showrooms in November 2010 for sale, and I have been saying that since the beginning, and I still believe it, nothing has led me to change my mind.
Lyle might get one, some celebrities/politicians might get one, there will probably be a Barrett Jackson auction on one, but I don’t feel anyone from the rank and file here will have one. Heck, can you even order any car in October and reasonably expect to get it in November?
Remember when GM was leading us to believe they would be building over ’100,000 a year after 2010,’ then 60,000, then 10,000…now it is 4,000 for model year 2011. I’ve had that stance all along, and you have to admit the trend is not going the right way, as you say you have been here at the site along time, you know how it has gone…but I am happy to be wrong, and I said I will admit it happily here. I’m a man of my word.
/see you in November
May 25th, 2010 (11:59 am)Dealers who don’t have the car in stock loose sales. My last purchase was from the lot — I was given a deal i couldn’t pass up, and it was very shiny…
I am unsure what I am looking for when I hit a car lot. Yes the Volt has some distinct advantages over the LEAF but… the LEAF has some interesting advantages over the Volt too, and waiting SUCKS!
An electric car is that big of a deal — Nissan will be just fine making it.
I personally believe that GM is making it seem as complicated as possible — coolaid?
!!!! Release date is a BIG thing! Oh, lets not do the 19641/2 Mustang analogy — must not…
Measuring/cutting??!! There are a few people here that believe that electric cars are hard to make.
It has been the battery that has kept electric cars from adoption. There isn’t many things more simple than an electric motor. High power electric motors in transportation? yes a few — ChooChoo!
There was a Dirty Jobs eps. where Mike was in a train refurbishing shop — they didn’t even deal with the motors — it was all about refurbing the Diesel.
Good article. I for one plan to wait for a Volt. My car situation is solved for the foreseeable future so I can wait. Having an over-engineered Ver-1 of the Volt sounds sexy to me. Hope they don’t limit the torque at 0mph too much. melting, melting rubber!!! Oh, i am sure some gizmo will detect tire slip and stop me. Blasting away at lights will be FUN!
May 25th, 2010 (1:10 pm)Kinda. I thought that 12000 was 6000 in Japan and 6000 between here and Europe. In which case, it is actually lower quantities and later than the Volt, at least here in the US. And granted the 50,000 sounds higher than what GM is talking about for the Volt, but it’s also higher than what Nissan had been talking about for the Leaf until they started taking orders.
Back in March, they were talking more like this: “Although the opener of a new era, it will be interesting to see whether the Leaf will be a hit, given its steep price. Nissan itself has set its target somewhat low in Japan, with only 6,000 units aimed to be sold in the fiscal year 2010. ”
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/nissan-leaf-available-for-order-prices-from-376m-yen-18644.html
What a difference a couple months can make. Maybe it will change things for GM, too.
Anyway, I think GM can turn up the production knob at Hamtramck probably just as quickly or quicker than Nissan can turn up production. The question is really one of corporate decision. Will they want to? I honestly don’t know. I keep thinking GM is going to limit production quantities to limit losses and that’s just a big mistake because the dealers will mark up the car and soak up profits GM could have made, had they priced the car higher where they wouldn’t want to limit production.
I’ll give Nissan the credit there, they’re clearing planning to make as many as they can. That’s been kind of a mixed message from GM and it’s disturbing.
May 26th, 2010 (1:48 am)I think GM is missing it by not taking early orders and that includes orders from People like us who regularly view this web site. It should be a first come first served deal. Also I think GM is really missing it by stating they will only build 10,000 Volts during first year. I think they will lose alot of sales because of that.
May 26th, 2010 (8:00 pm)Winning a PR war for GM is almost impossible at this moment in time. There is the bankruptcy thing. The ‘owned by government’ thing. The ‘when will there be an IPO’ thing. The list goes on.
No wonder Nissan is winning the PR war. ANY CAR COMPANY would win a PR war against GM right now (except maybe for Toyota, because of the ‘gas pedal thing’ nightmare they had).