Nissan has a problem, but it is the kind that every automaker, including GM with the Volt, hopes to have when introducing a new product. Underestimating demand.
As of the their last update, Nissan had taken in over 14,200 reservations for its 2011 Nissan LEAF. To get a feel for this kind of demand, GM’s latest highly anticipated/heavily advertised car, the Chevrolet Camaro, took in 10,000 pre-orders in the first 10 weeks it was made available, and 15,000 by the time it was actually in production, around 6 months after their order system opened to the public.
Of the those LEAF reservations, over 9,500 are from the US, with another 4,700 coming from Japan. The US number is significant because the reservation process has only been available for a short time (3 weeks), and has been a closed system. Only those who had pre-registered as being interested in the LEAF have been able to commit thus far. That all changed today as Nissan is accepting any reservations made nationwide through their website.
The demand for the compact, 5 seat, 100 mile electric car has even caught Nissan by surprise. Originally in the fall when they announced the reservation process, they expected “at least 20,000 reservations for Nissan LEAF by the time we deliver the world’s first mass-market zero-emission car in late 2010,” (Nissan’s Carlos Tavares) then the number was bumped to 25,000 reservations just in the US, which would rival the number of pre-orders taken on the latest Toyota Prius in this country. (The Prius would go on to reach 75,000 pre-orders worldwide).
With Nissan just beginning to advertise the Leaf, and the reservations system going live today, it is a good bet that number is going to jump significantly again…and Nissan knows it.
Nissan boss, Carlos Ghosn, in response to this demand said that Nissan is actively seeking to boost capacity out of their Oppama Japan facility to satisfy demand. In so doing, he also estimated they could already produce up to 12,000 cars by March of 2011, which in itself seems like a pretty big number for initial production, but would already fall short of the reservations they have in hand. Nissan begins deliveries the end of 2010
Ghosn also took the time to underline Nissan’s commitment to the electrification of the automobile, “No other automaker will be producing electric batteries or cars at such a scale. And customers are ready.” On the demand he noted that, “From everything we’re seeing … interest in zero-emission cars is very high and we don’t think it’s going to require too much efforts in marketing.” /it would seem not
Sidenote for the 5.9% of the readership that hails from Canada: Nissan has gone live with a interactive LEAF website for Canadians, with such tidbits as “60% of Canadians travel less than 10km to work – one way.” Nissan has also stated that deliveries in that country will begin in the fall of 2011…still no pricing as of yet
Editor’s Note:
Co-incident with Nissan’s announcement I had to chance to ask the following questions of Darryl Harrison Jr. a Nissan USA communications manager:
How are the 9500 geographically distributed?
We received orders from throughout the U.S., unfortunately, we haven’t broken down specifics just yet.
How will you prevent dealer markup?
We as a manufacturer can only recommend a suggested price. Dealers set the actual purchase price.
When do people pass the refundable barrier, ie when is an official contract signed? It looks like someone on the list lets say in Idaho or Utah through early on the list may not get a car until 2012 from what I see.
More information regarding the Nissan LEAF purchase process will be shared in several weeks. Stay tuned for more details about this after June 30.
Are people given priroity with regard to how early they registered on the NissanUSA site?
Yes, consumers who have made reservations will be placed in order for their particular market.
-11
May 15th, 2010 (8:16 am)(click to show comment)
+19
May 15th, 2010 (8:20 am)Tax credits reduce the price to the low 20k’s. No more paying for gasoline. Does it really look that bad?
=D-Volt
+2
May 15th, 2010 (8:21 am)Nissan has the pedal to the metal. But unless they bring out generation 2 with a range of about 200 miles, I think vehicles like the Volt will surpass their actual sales.
+10
May 15th, 2010 (8:24 am)Even if you haven’t built it yet – THEY WILL COME!!!
+15
May 15th, 2010 (8:24 am)I love it! I wish it were an American car but it’s a good start. We are all a part of history and it’s very exciting.
-1
May 15th, 2010 (8:28 am)People want electric based vehicles so much they are willing to even purchase a ugly vehicle like the LEAF. What would the demand be if the LEAF was a nicely styled vehicle.
+35
May 15th, 2010 (8:30 am)It’ll NEVER sell.
(shrieking)
Range anxiety! Range anxiety!!! RANGE ANXIETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/there, I just saved some of the regulars about 80 comments
Add,
If your try to quick-charge it, you’ll black out 1/2 the city and the car will blow up like an atomic bomb.
/there, that should save about 15 more
+36
May 15th, 2010 (8:35 am)It is too ugly and short legged for me, but I wish Nissan the best of luck. Every one of these cars sold anywhere in the world reduces OPEC’s ability to manipulate oil importing nations, like us, and to finance terrorism and the oppression of everyone they don’t like. I wonder what the Leaf would be like with a true 150 mile range though, rather than a real world 75-80 mile range. What was the cycle they used to calculate their AER as being 100, the Japanese city cycle, or something?
Kudos to Nissan for building the first BEV/EREV that normal people can afford. It may be considered the Model T of the modern world if GM doesn’t get the Volt price down and the production up.
Wake up, GM!
-8
May 15th, 2010 (8:40 am)The short answer, yes it really is THAT ugly. Who killed the electric car? The Nissan styling department that’s who.
+3
May 15th, 2010 (8:43 am)Where is Nissan in terms of prototypes, pre-production vehicles? I believe that the cars that toured the US were prototypes.
“Nissan boss, Carlos Ghosn, in response to this demand said that Nissan is actively seeking to boost capacity out of their Oppama Japan facility to satisfy demand. In so doing, he also estimated they could already produce up to 12,000 cars by March of 2011,”
First cars are to be delivered by December this year, so 12,000 cars in 4 or 5 months = ~36,000 yearly capacity, existing with additional capacity in the works. Is this production line already running like the Volt is? I would hope they are now testing production vehicles, but no news.
+8
May 15th, 2010 (8:46 am)This is very interesting. I’m pretty close to the top of the list for the Leaf in Phx. My driving cycle is pretty tough (75 mile round trip w/ 2500′ el. change). And I don’t want two cars (I would keep the Prius if I get the Leaf).
I really want a Volt and had pretty much decided to pass on my reservation and just wait for the Volt.
but–
Now I’m not sure. The thought of no ICE maintenance is pretty appealing. And it’s a chance that many don’t have since Phx is an intro market. and who knows when or IF I will ever be able to get a Volt.
What’s a little boy to do.
+8
May 15th, 2010 (8:48 am)How can more Volts be sold then Leaf’s when there will be many more Leaf’s made available.
Most importantly Demand will far outstrip supply for the first 2-3 years, and after 2-3 years, there will be a 200 mile battery available, charging stations will begin to appear at decent intervals on highways, and battery costs will reach the point where EVERYONE will want an EREV or a BEV depending on their needs and assuming they have a place to plug in overnight.
-1
May 15th, 2010 (8:53 am)Thanks for the help. It’ll shorten up the comments considerably. But what do *you* think? Are you getting one? You may have already said, but my memory tends to suck.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 15th, 2010 (8:56 am)I think you’re dead in the water with a Leaf.. Unless you can recharge everyday at work. It’ll be scary.
+4
May 15th, 2010 (8:56 am)I think that I read somewhere that it was the Pike’s Peak Downhill cycle….
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+11
May 15th, 2010 (8:57 am)Seating for five and emission free. A recent Leaf demo drive review mentions the “punch” factor of electric drive torque. Says the Leaf should be renamed the Leap. The short range delivery service sector in America will buy Leaf in quantity. And as mentioned here at gm volt dot com many times. The green technology factor is a terrific image builder in advertising.
“We deliver to your door emission free with our Nissan Leaf”.
This makes a difference. Especially in environmentally conscious areas like California.
=D-Volt
+9
May 15th, 2010 (9:00 am)I beleive the at least half the Leaf reservations would have gone to the Volt if GM had a reservation list. Doesn’t look like GM has learned anything from their resent financial problems. I would be on their list just as I am on the gm-volt list. I am going to buy a new car in 1010. Wish it could be an ER-EV. Most likely GM is going to lose my order.
+26
May 15th, 2010 (9:00 am)Price markups are more or less taken care of by the lease. Considering that a lease also essentially gives the customer an “instant rebate” since the lessor gets the rebate and passes it on to the consumer in the form of a lower monthly payment, in the case of BEVs and EREVs leasing is a beautiful thing.
What does this mean for the Volt? Well it seems that 80% is the magic number. 80% of the respondents in the autobloggreen.com poll said they were passing on the Leaf because they wanted a Volt. Bob Lutz proudly pointed out that 80% of the people polled by GM said they preferred EREV because of range anxiety. So take the pre-orders Nissan has and is expecting to get and multiply by four. Ergo, a lot of orders.
So GM probably has the biggest hit on its hand since, well, ever. But unless you make them you can’t sell them, and at this point what we see is GM management sitting on its hands worrying about how to placate the German government and how to reconstitute GMAC. And thinking about turning out 700 Volts a month. You know, how to go back to the future.
Contrast this Nissan which is aiming to turn out 500,000 EVs a year in 2013. This from a recent interview with Carlos Ghosn:
“Our intention is for maybe two years (to) have government incentives and then when we reach a reasonable scale level that we consider at the level of the alliance of about 500,000 cars a year, we will have the base to cut costs significantly in order for the consumer not to need any more the support from the government,” Ghosn said.
A reasonable scale for Nissan 40,000 units a month, meaning that this is what it will take to effect some serious cost cutting. GM can’t get there with its production plans of, at best, 10% of that number. Plus it will be spending all that time trying to figure out all the reasons it can give to explain why it can’t meet demand for the Volts which aren’t coming off its assembly lines, why the hydrogen unicorns are really on to something, and why everyone should just “stay tuned”.
May 15th, 2010 (9:07 am)Why can’t the dealer just roll the markup into the monthly payment for the lease?
(and that “stay tuned” crack is just plain *evil*)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 15th, 2010 (9:09 am)I can’t remember the name, maybe US04, but it’s essentially the drive cycle of an average driver in Los Angeles in 1964. Obviously not very aggressive. However, I have been told that the range on that cycle was well above the stated 100 miles. So whatever that is worth.
But we can all do the math. 24 kWh battery pack. Maybe they can use 20 kWh. Maybe. At 250 W/mile that’s 80 miles. At 200 W/mile that’s 100 miles. Obviously less if the weather isn’t great. Given the Volt’s transmission my guess is the Volt will use significantly less W/mile at “highway” speeds and above.
+7
May 15th, 2010 (9:15 am)Off topic…
Looked into the EPA MPG procedure and estimates for EREV cars. The Volt comes in at just over 200 MPG using their testing method. The EPA has a 10 mile test track. With specific speeds to be run at specific points. This track is run until the battery power is used up. Then one time on liquid fuel power. The result is 40 miles electric. Plus 10 miles @ .22 gallon liquid fuel used. Resulting in 50 miles using .22 gallon. 1 gallon / .22 = 4.54
4.54 x 50 = 227 mpg
We’ll eventually see how this is relayed to the consumer via window sticker. It’s tough to rate MPG for a car that doesn’t need to use gasoline. Maybe something like this?
Full Time Electric Drive Vehicle
45 miles electric (city) / 40 miles electric (highway)
52 MPG (city reserve) / 45 MPG (highway reserve)
=D-Volt
+1
May 15th, 2010 (9:21 am)In my limited experience a “factory lease” from the manufacturer has certain set terms which the dealer can’t change. Of course a dealer could use a different leasing company but the base interest rate would go up considerably. The dealer could also try and get a side payment but that might violate the terms of getting the lease from the lender/manufacturer. CorvetteGuy could probably shed a lot of light on this. My guess is we’ll see a lot of “dealer prep” but not a lot more than this.
One reason for this is that the Leaf roll out is a bit different because it will be done in conjunction with the home installation of the charging stations. It also I believe requires some agreement on the part of the customer to allow data about the driving to be recorded. So for the first year or so it’s more like the mini-E roll out than a normal vehicle roll out.
The other interesting way Nissan has done this is by central reservation with the customer getting the opportunity to pick the dealer. I had six or seven to choose from. If Nissan releases the cars to the dealers based on firm orders, rather than the other way around of allocating the inventory, then dealers would have to compete in order to get your order, and that would probably take care of a lot of the issues as well. Many things for GM to consider.
And yeah, I liked the “stay tuned” comment too!
+2
May 15th, 2010 (9:26 am)Been sayin’ for a long, long time GM should be offering a BEV version of the Volt along with EREV. Most of these sales commitments could have been GM’s if they wanted. When it comes down to signing a contract, GM may end up conquering some of these but I don’t think that will happen unless the Volt is less than $35,500 and/or Nissan trips on it’s specs. The subsets of consumers interested in a 75 mile BEV and a 40 mile EREV are very similar but yet at the same time mostly unique.
+5
May 15th, 2010 (9:27 am)Fleet sales and businesses are going to use up a large portion of the supply, and the LEAF has lots of cargo space due to the hatchback door.. they will love the fixed costs, no maintenance and the big tax credit.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (9:27 am)So, it is the best thing since sliced bread. Wouldn’t it be that much better if it didn’t look like a catfish. Why must all electric cars from major oem’s try to look like something out of the jetsons. What is wrong with an electric drivetrain in a regular car? Am I the only one who sees this as a problem?
+6
May 15th, 2010 (9:30 am)Hi Tom W @ 12, yes the Leaf will out sell the Volt until 2012 unless GM floors it. And we agree if the Leaf battery is upgraded (generation 2 were my words) then Leaf sales could be huge. And I agree demand will exceed production for model year 2011, both for the Volt and the Leaf because we are only talking about 35,000 cars or so (8 to 10 thousand Volts and 20 to 25 thousand Leafs).
+5
May 15th, 2010 (9:32 am)Norm, check your GM dealers again. I did yesterday and they have taken their first reservation, and were willing to give me one too, and its refundable as well. They are scheduling their Volt technicians classes on servicing the Volt, they are estimating that larger dealerships will be getting 3 in the first month and 5 or 6 Volts a month in 2011. They also said that though they won’t have any before Halloween, they expect them shortly thereafter.
That exhausts the good news.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (9:33 am)I wonder if the next big thing will be a website where a person can swap their BEV for an ICE car for the weekend? Or maybe ICE timeshares. Or there may be a resurgence in kids needing to borrow their parents car, or vice-versa.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (9:42 am)Eco, forget a timeshare in a Volt or Leaf, I want that one full time. But a timeshare in a 1997 Porsche Boxster would work rather nicely. A $9,000 car, each of the 3 owners book 2 day windows of use, repairs and insurance split 3 ways… Even if one of us rods the car to death I only lose the better part of $3000, and I would be satisfied with driving it a couple times a week, anyway. Whereas my Volt is going to be going 30 miles every day, as soon as I can save up enough coin to pay for the thing. Make my Boxster in Guards Red and my Volt in Black, I will accept the extra AC use for the way the Volt looks in Black!
-10
May 15th, 2010 (9:43 am)(click to show comment)
+4
May 15th, 2010 (9:43 am)Dont start up the 2 Mode transmission thing again
Like I have said before, if the Volt can get 40 miles using 8kwh then the LEAF can get 96 miles using 19.2kwh of energy. 19.2kwh is the 80% of the 24kwh pack.
The range extender will be alive and well with the LEAF, all you have to do is internally tap the fast charge port and run and extension to the back of the car.. attach a small trailer hitch and voila!
BTW, you have to order the extra options package to get the fast charge port.
http://evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm
Here is a homemade one with a small generator:
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1336&PN=2
+7
May 15th, 2010 (9:45 am)Dear GM,
Please put the volt drivetrain in a Malibu. No exterior changes except for the charging door. No interior changes. Seating for 5 and all for about 30k. If you can please do that I will personally garountee a minimum of 500,000 sales per year, with expectations of up to 2 million worldwide. You know it will fit, remember the malivolt test mule? I’m ok with 32 miles aer, really. I don’t even need a fancy touch screen to show me the soc. I need to get off my oil addiction and still get to work and carry my family of 5 from time to time. I don’t want to buy a forign car, just please make it here in the Midwest like you used to. If you have any questions or problems just give me a call or just stop by and we can talk over a beer. Thanks for your help Mr. Goodwrench.
Sincerly,
John Q. Public
+3
May 15th, 2010 (9:49 am)I have not signed up for the Leaf. As I am not in an introductory market, I think it could be 2012 before I can purchase one.
While I am very interested in the Leaf, I think there’s going to be quite a few other options available in the 2012-2013 timeline. Although there are few details available, I’m thinking that the BMW (mini?) Megacity could be my pick:
1. Carbon fiber (lightweight) with rear wheel drive and a “sport mode” button could give the megacity a “Tesla” appeal with outstanding acceleration/handling performance.
2. 160 mile (likely nominal) range could give a real world range of over 120 miles. My only long distance driving is to a neighboring city less than 200 miles away where 220v is available for my overnight stay. All I would need is one quick charge (30 minutes?) station at the 1/2 way point and I’ve got nearly all of my driving covered gas free. (I think the Leaf would require 2 stops).
3. My current car is a BMW, I’m a fan of their styling/performance.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (9:51 am)My problem is it still doesn’t replace the capabilities of a ICE or hybrid car. Dealers really think they’ll be able to charge above retail? In most cases they’ll just drive customers to something else.
+7
May 15th, 2010 (10:03 am)Looks like the Leaf is a Nissan Tiida with a modified hood for plug in. Interchangeable parts help to hold down manufacturing costs. A good first step in EV production. Future designs may reflect the Nissan sport models.
=D-Volt
+2
May 15th, 2010 (10:09 am)http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/14/general-motors-chrysler-now-eligible-for-atvm-re-tooling-loans/
Maybe this means will be hearing some positive Volt production news soon or perhaps Voltec model #2. I hope so. If the loans are awarded and GM does not plan something additional for Voltec, then the criticism may get just a little more vocal.
+4
May 15th, 2010 (10:21 am)“Are people given priroity with regard to how early they registered on the NissanUSA site?
Yes, consumers who have made reservations will be placed in order for their particular market.”
Nissan just earned a lot of respect. Eager buyers have been given the same priority as movie stars and government officials.
GO NISSAN!
Pay attention GM.
+5
May 15th, 2010 (10:22 am)Just make sure you can charge up your Leaf at your daily workplace. That should cover you for everything but pleasure trips out of town.
-8
May 15th, 2010 (10:23 am)I look for a very “buyer friendly” used market for Leafs about a year from now.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (10:45 am)BMW’s sure make nice vehicles. Is your reasoning to go with the LEAF’s need for fast charge or mid-trip charging, instead of a Volt, based on the fact that the Volt would use some gasoline? If it was E85 it’d be a very small amount – but still more than a LEAF. I know that some people feel very passionately about not using a drop of fossil fuel.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+11
May 15th, 2010 (10:52 am)One of the nicer features of the Leaf is a good display of remaining kwh and likely range, so the driver will not be somehow taken by surprise. I don’t think you will be seeing many on the side of the road. At first many people will be cautious, just as they are today in a regular car about running out of gas. People will quickly adjust to whatever the real range turns out to be, and will use the Leaf when and where range is easily adequate.
+19
May 15th, 2010 (10:59 am)Yes, ugly in a funky sort of way. Like the Prius, Leaf is distinctive. I like that.
Interesting that Toyota and Nissan see electric as something to show off, while gm sees electric as something to hide. It’s really two different views of the world. Judging by the response so far, the public seems to be tending toward the Nissan/Toyota view of things.
Then again, if-as-when gm puts a foot in the water, we can see what happens.
+5
May 15th, 2010 (11:12 am)Lyle, remember when you used to be for the electrification of the automobile and the Volt was one means of achieving that?
In that spirit how about you stop going out of your way to put down the Leaf? Or at the very least, don’t take a Statik article (which I always enjoy reading) and make such a sad attempt to twist it. (As many of us knew and as DonC has pointed out, the lease takes care of the gouging.)
-1
May 15th, 2010 (11:17 am)What makes you think that Lyle does anything to Statik’s articles? Seems to me that a guest post is just that.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 15th, 2010 (11:23 am)I would expect to see some when the 3 year leases expire.. but they will probably be in such high demand that it may not be worth it to buy it used.
-3
May 15th, 2010 (11:24 am)In your kind of heat, you’d be lucky to get 75 miles of range per charge, assuming you use your A/C. Hang on to your Prius and wait for the Volt.
This whole ‘pre-order’ scheme is no guarantee of actual sales. Comparing LEAF numbers with Camaro figures is misleading – with the Camaro people knew what to expect out of their purchase….. with the LEAF probably 60-80% of the people signing up saw it at one of the stops on Nissan’s promo tour late last year and haven’t really thought out how limiting the car will be for them. When the time comes to shell out the big bucks there’s going to be a major wave of people asking for their $99 reservation fee back.
+6
May 15th, 2010 (11:35 am)The Tiida is known in the US as the Versa.. The LEAF is not based on the Versa, its a larger car built on a dedicated electric chassis.. larger in all dimensions. Firmly in the midsize classification. An image of the bottom of the LEAF will show you how different it is from any other car today.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (11:47 am)O/T I know but please indulge this as I know many regulars would be interested in this:
http://i.autobloggreen.com/2010/05/13/a123-systems-signs-deal-to-supply-batteries-for-eaton-built-ford/
Eaton is building a PHEV F-550 purpose built for utilities, with A123 batteries.
With 10 miles of AER, this seems to have inherent capability as an RV tow vehicle or as a motorhome/adventure vehicle chassis.
C’mon, GM. C’MON.
+4
May 15th, 2010 (11:51 am)Perhaps because the article clearly indicates it?
The first thing to do is observe the “Editor’s Note”. If that section was written by the author then it wouldn’t say “Editor’s Note”, would it? And do you doubt that the “Editor” of this site is anyone but Lyle? Plus anyone who has read Lyle’s past interview posts will have no doubt that it was Lyle writing. He should have changed the “I” to read “Lyle”, but there is no doubt it was him.
Then take a look for ANYTHING about gouging prior to the editor’s note. It isn’t there.
So Lyle took a fairly positive Leaf article by Statik and then inserted some negative (but meaningless to discerning readers) text about gouging. And if that wasn’t enough, he actually added it to the title!
With electric car supporters like that, who needs enemies?
Tag, you seem like a smart guy, did you actually not see that that was what Lyle did?
+1
May 15th, 2010 (12:07 pm)The Volt appears more practical with superior engineering, styling and versatility.
The cost of Volt generation one becomes better (after rebates) and could improve further with high volume production. The Voltec engineering team has multiple advanced energy storage projects underway at GM’s new Battery Research Lab in Michigan.
The Volt leaps past the Leaf, IMHO.
-3
May 15th, 2010 (12:23 pm)That’s an interesting view of the LEAF’s underside; its symbolism did not escape me…..a leaf falling from a tree….. could this be a preview of the eventual fate of this car?
+2
May 15th, 2010 (12:30 pm)Seem to be pretty close in size.
Nissan Leaf: length 175.0 in.
Nissan Versa: length 169.1 inches Hatchback; 175.9 inches Sedan
=D-Volt
+2
May 15th, 2010 (12:36 pm)It’s also the best looking view one could ever see of the car….
+2
May 15th, 2010 (12:46 pm)Somewhere, in a normally peaceful Pennsylvania locale, the barely audible sound of an incandescent filament sparking to life is heard. Two felines respond by abandoning their lazy perches and scamper off in search of hiding spots.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (1:30 pm)LOL, cute, but *actually* I just ate lunch. Oh, and the cats didn’t move a muscle.
I re-read the article, and I’m still letting it “steep” (like a fine tea), before responding to GXT’s, uh, …. commentary. They (don’t know gender) must not have been around for the statik years, if they think that he was being positive and Lyle was obviously editing because it appeared (to them) to take a negative turn. (lol). We’ve *all* expressed concerns about price gouging regardless of the mfg, so I’m having a hard time wrapping my teeny, tiny intellect in the idea that Lyle is somehow anti-electric anything, because he’s alleged to mention gouging. I mean, how are they even *related*? I promise to work on it for a few hours though (g). “Little steps, for little feet….”
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 15th, 2010 (1:43 pm)Taking reservations while not fully disclosing battery warranty – life cycle information, pathetic. All the cassandras talking about 5years battery warranty only will be vindicated.
+7
May 15th, 2010 (2:01 pm)Nice simple little car!
Kind of ugly in a Nissan sort of way.
The better it works, though, the more endearing it will get.
There are a few negatives that come with an EV, sure, but for the short range gas gas drivers, it’s the greenest thing you can do!!
Please charge at night, don’t stress the grid until we can make them less polluting too!
Half a million a year worldwide from Nissan is a pretty ambitious number. Good Luck Nissan, hope you reach that number.
Go Volt too! GM is what I would rather buy.
+3
May 15th, 2010 (2:03 pm)The word is distinctive.
From a distance anyone can pick the car out. That’s the whole point, buyers get to say “look at me, I’m not burning gas.”
+1
May 15th, 2010 (2:08 pm)Darn trolls!
May 15th, 2010 (2:13 pm)Uncontested.
Be well anyway (g).
Troll-a-met
-4
May 15th, 2010 (2:20 pm)Lol so you’re saying that it’s ugly on purpose so that the driver can be more smug? Bahahahahaha that’s a good one. Do u live in DC or work for BP hehe spin baby spin.
May 15th, 2010 (2:20 pm)Good luck Nissan. I hope you did as much testing as GM is doing. Being first out of the gate, I hope everything goes well and you don’t sour the sales of EV cars.
Regarding the contrast between EREV’s and BEV’s, with current technologies, they both have a market, I just think the EREV market is much much bigger. Its good to see such an interest in BEV’s.
May 15th, 2010 (2:22 pm)My bad. Let me know if that light bulb comes on.
/p.s. if you subrscribe to the idea that any press is good press, then today’s article works with or without editorial input
-1
May 15th, 2010 (2:29 pm)Hahaha tag u shouldn’t pick your nose in public. That sort of thing is for the forums!
+1
May 15th, 2010 (2:34 pm)The “filament” part threw me off. Doncha know that fluorescent is better for the planet? And they are all-electric too! I skipped right from my kerosene lamps to fluorescent….
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 15th, 2010 (2:34 pm)With this option the leaf may be the better deal. And since there is now a trailer we can add more cargo capacity almost free. This car may be the better deal after all :+}
+5
May 15th, 2010 (2:38 pm)I still am my friend. I drive a MINI E now. Next car, Volt.
+12
May 15th, 2010 (2:55 pm)I prefer the uglyness of Nissan Leaf to the beauty of the Gulf Oil “Spill”. YMMV.
May 15th, 2010 (3:00 pm)An Observation. the “if” factor
If an auto company allows price gouging by a dealer… then both are sowing seeds of their own demise in the future.
If a company comes up with a great product and then “allows” this activity a lot of buyers will see it as a deal killer … or … will have long memories about future dealings with both.
If a company/dealer wants customer loyalty they need to be loyal to their customers.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (3:02 pm)How will GM get around federal law preventing the manufacture from forcing dealers to sell at a certain price–thus allowing dealers to markup (gouging), Lyle? Why the bias title?
May 15th, 2010 (3:12 pm)You’d be astounded….. The forums are not for the weak at heart (or thin of skin)! (lol).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
May 15th, 2010 (3:33 pm)GM may very well have the same problem. Sorry to upset anyone with the title, but early adopters need to be aware that what you see with respect to price might not be what you get.
+3
May 15th, 2010 (3:34 pm)I’m still bummed that GM will be playing ‘Catch Up’ this winter when they finally get the VOLT on the road. If Nissan has 40,000 on the road before GM has their first 4000 even built, then Chevrolet may not be the brand people think of when you say “Electric Car” or “Hybrid Car”.
If I could get confirmation that our dealership will receive 4000 cars, I bet I could get 4000 immediate orders just telling you guys about it.
Sadly… still no word from GM how many we get, if any…
May 15th, 2010 (3:41 pm)We just got used to GM’s openness regarding the Volt.. how do you know Nissan has not done even more testing than GM?.. Dont forget, the LEAF is a much simpler car. I would worry more about Aptera and Coda than Nissan.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (3:42 pm)Exactly!
I expect that LEAF and Volt owners will be giving the finger to Prius drivers and yelling at them about how they are destroying the planet.
No, but I always though I’d be a good lobbyist.
+4
May 15th, 2010 (3:48 pm)(this should be interesting…)
Here we go again with the ‘price gouging’ rants.
It has been reported here that GM will only make 8000 VOLTs for 2011 model year.
There have been over 50,000 people signing up for Lyle’s want list.
That’s 42,000 disappointed customers.
Now suppose… if one of those customers OFFERED a little bit more to the dealer to get one of those 8000 cars… AND the dealer agrees and bumps a customer who only offered ‘sticker price’… Did the Buyer get ‘gouged’ ? Who actually took advantage of whom?
And what is your definition of ‘price gouging’? $1,000 over sticker? $2,000 over sticker? $5,000? $10,000? No dealer that I know of holds a GUN to a buyer’s head in the finance office. If they are willing to pay over sticker to get what they want, what is wrong with that?
If the Buyer gets the car that they want without having to wait 12 to 18 months in line for it. I humbly propose to you that they did NOT get gouged.
Now, just like you, I could not afford to pay over sticker for a VOLT, but if I could to get the first one, I would. Yep. No problem. Now I gotta go buy a LOTTO ticket.
+4
May 15th, 2010 (3:49 pm)Price gouging:
“Free market economists Thomas Sowell and Walter E. Williams, among others, argue against laws that interfere with large price changes. According to this view, high prices can be viewed as information for use in determining the best allocation of scarce resources for which there are multiple uses.
They, in effect, reject the term “price gouging,” and argue that laws against price increases serve only to restrict supplies of a good or service by reducing the incentive suppliers have to undertake any additional costs, hazards or inconvenience that may be required.
………………..
In the same vein, economists Jerry Taylor and Peter VanDoren state: “Gougers are sending an important signal to market actors that something is scarce and that profits are available to those who produce or sell that something. Gouging thus sets off an economic chain reaction that ultimately remedies the shortages that led to the gouging in the first place.” This means that if there is a possibility to make large profits other suppliers would jump into the market and eventually drive down the prices to cost through normal price competition.”
/just sayin..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging
+3
May 15th, 2010 (3:50 pm)I always buy used cars, I’ve never paid more than $15,000 for a car. A car would have to be very special for me to pay over $20,000 for it. If I were presented with the chance to buy a Volt, I would not only not consider the selling price, I would allow myself the luxury of only looking at whether or not I could afford the monthly payment. As long as it was a purchase.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (3:55 pm)For many people MSRP is price gouging
.. another word that has always made me wince is “fair” when describing a transaction among consenting adults.
I propose OBAMA should implement “price gouging” restrictions, but to be “fair” he should also implement a guaranteed income program for dealerships. I think 5% overall profit is “fair”.
So many people still channel Karl Marx.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (4:03 pm)The problem with “price gouging” is that it could sour the brand to people who might have purchased the vehicle but feel that the dealers insisting on charging well over MSRP are being unfair. The mid-term impact is where the dealers could be hurt/the brand could be hurt/and sales could be hurt.
It’s my opinion that those mid-term sales are exactly the ones that’ll make or break a novel vehicle like the Leaf or the Volt or the PHV Prius. Early adopters are just that..they’re generally well informed, patient, and know what they’re buying (my argument against the title btw, Lyle). They are also the ones that can help determine the future of the vehicle. If they have a good purchase experience, if problems are quickly and efficiently resolved, if their design concerns are quickly address…and then they become enthusiastic owners they’ll pass on that message to others–those mid-term buyers, who were either on the fence or happen to learn about the vehicle later on. Long term I don’t think it’ll matter, if the brand and vehicle are good and early and mid-term sales are good, then the vehicle will do well even if there was some gouging.
If you recall the 2nd gen Prius, early on there was almost no price gouging, the vehicle became very popular, production wasn’t ramped up yet, and then gas prices started to rise…and the sharks came out! People were being told they couldn’t buy the car w/o ponying up $2-5k over MSRP and/or paying for a bunch of dealer add-ons. As much as I and others tried to discourage paying the mark-ups, people paid it fearing they wouldn’t be able to get the car they wanted…but a lot of people were turned off and turned to the Civic Hybrid or another conventional ICE vehicle.
Yea, it’s a supply and demand issue and I do believe in free-market economy, but the short term impact can sure have ugly long term impact on public opinion on the vehicle itself, the dealership, and the brand. Extending that…the last thing GM needs is another hit to its brand name esp. with so much of their future hinging on the Volt. Nissan’s reputation as a company that can produce advance propulsion vehicles is also pretty key.
+7
May 15th, 2010 (4:05 pm)Ed Whitacre was elected to the board of directors for ExxonMobil in May 2008.
He joined GM in June of 2009 as chairman becoming permanent chairman in January 2010.
Now is the time for Ed Whitacre to resign his directorship of ExxonMobil.
With GM trying to advance in a new direction this would free his hands as at the moment it must be incredibly difficult for him to make the necessary changes for GM (his main job) against the wishes of his fellow directors on the board of ExxonMobil.
Commitment and clear purpose are required as shown by Carlos Ghosn, the chairman and CEO of the Renault-Nissan Alliance.
May 15th, 2010 (4:10 pm)I get what you are saying, I think it’s funny but I get it.
I think that (I’ll call it the prius effect) is actually hurting the hybrid/ev image and sales though. I belive most people, americans anyway, don’t want to stick out of the crowd with a look at me mobile. That’s why Toyota sold so many cars they are almost all very bland. #1 selling car for a very long time has benn a mid-sized sedan with conservative styling, ie. Tarus, accord, camry. As a percentage of U.S. Sales stand alone hybrids are a tiny piece of the market. That’s why I think it would be smart for gm to release a malivolt, as I put in my Everyman post above. For proof of this idea I point to the fusion hybrid, car of the year. Good looking good mileage car that is still under 30k and is hard to tell apart from any other fusion. I own a Chrysler Aspen hybrid. One of the big reasons I own that instead of a Yukon hybrid is all of the gaudy look at me stickers on the gm. Most people when they find out the truck is a two mode say wow I couldn’t tell by looking at it. That’s how I like it. And I’d bet that I’m in the majority in the US.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (4:16 pm)Ultimately that’s the problem with the way GM is approaching Volt production. But for 2011 and 2012 there will probably be a similar limited number of vehicles on the road. In fact there may be more Volts. Maybe 20K Leafs for those years and maybe 30K Volts. But in 2013 Nissan gears up. GM doesn’t seem to have a similar plan.
GM has a decision to make. It can price the Volt so it leads to one of two scenarios. It can price the Volt roughly at market. Then “gouging” isn’t an issue and GM gets the money. But everyone will scream about the ridiculous high MSRP. Alternatively it can price the Volt under market. Now GM gets less money, the dealer gets more via an additional markup, and people are whacked off and complain about gouging. Neither scenario is great but IMHO GM would do better pricing the car at market. In this regard, I’ve constantly been amused by how people focus on the MSRP, as if MSRP could magically change the market price. As you’re pointing out, market price is set by supply and demand. No matter what MSRP shows up on the Volt, the car will sell based on supply and demand at the market price.
The solution of course is to make more cars, but that seemingly simple solution doesn’t seem to on the table.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (4:21 pm)To be honest, if the Leaf were built by GM I would most likely be on the Leaf List…
+2
May 15th, 2010 (4:33 pm)That did it! I am going to add a gun rack and a Sarah Palin bumper sticker to the Prius.
Gonna do me some Weaf hunting…
+1
May 15th, 2010 (4:35 pm)Exactly, I dont know. That’s why I hope they did. Everything sounds “simple”.. till it doesnt work (speaking from experience as a controls engineer). Last thing the EV movement needs is a car bursting into flames or whatever. I know that’s an exageration (hopefully), but that’s what my point was.
May 15th, 2010 (4:42 pm)I would like people to know the car I drive runs on electricity. But I dont want an ugly car either. I want something that has a unique recognizable look, that is also attractive.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (4:49 pm)So very true, we will see how this all plays out. Thanks Lyle for the daily update on the epic struggle towards electrification. It is the one true answer to our addiction to oil. As with any battle/war their are winners and losers. I think Lyle, with his resources may be more than just a reporter calling out the play by play, but a General in the war against our addiction to oil.
Many Respects
+2
May 15th, 2010 (4:58 pm)+1 (and I don’t think that we are alone here), BUT (and I hope you’re listening GM) ours is a very special, self-selected group and there is no way that we reflect the general car buying population. Prime the pump with a reasonable MSRP! It’ll reap huge benefits in no time at all.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 15th, 2010 (5:02 pm)#25
Ask Honda. The Prius outsells the Civic hybrid by about 10 to 1.
+5
May 15th, 2010 (5:04 pm)I thought the Prius came from the factory with an Obama/Biden bumper sticker on it.
May 15th, 2010 (5:07 pm)Also look at the Prius sedan. It didn’t sell. The Prius took off when they made it ugly.
I wish they still offered the Prius sedan as an option.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (5:18 pm)Beware! Those who left negative messages on this board about Leaf are actually the real buyers. They want to discourage other buyers so that they would get their Leaves sooner.
Talking about Game Theory!
So beware! Hold on to your reservation and buy the SoG when it’s your turn!
+2
May 15th, 2010 (5:20 pm)I took the delete option on that one! Those guys/gals with that option and sticker are generally in the right lane doing 50mph. The ones with without are in the left lane doing at least ten over(A bit of lane reversal?). Prius the ultimate stealth vehicle…
/I do hope the Volt transcends vehicular stereotypes. The Left lost a great icon with the passing of Saab, it has largely been replaced with the Prius. I hope the Volt can overcome partisan pigeonholing.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (5:51 pm)Maybe if we were in Japan, we would have heard more about the Leaf’s development. People keep mentioning this here and site the lack pre-production vehicles on the road. I know the analogy is not that “analogous” but how many pre-production Volt’s are on the road in Japan?
The Leaf is a Japanese designed and in the beginning will only be a Japanese built car. Thus, I’m with Red HHR. If GM were offering this now, I’ld be on the list and still be looking forward to a Volt as well.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (5:55 pm)Misconceptions were abundant. Anti-Hybrid campaigning was rampant. Gas was dirt cheap. Emissions were never discussed.
Dispite that, the waiting lists were 6 to 9 months long.
There were 15,000 purchased the first year here and 20,000 the next.
Puts an interesting perspective on Volt, eh?
+2
May 15th, 2010 (5:57 pm)The Prius also outsells the Insight by nearly the same margin. It isn’t the look, it’s the functionality. The Prius is a hatchback AND gets better mileage. Perhaps I’m wrong but if the mileage were reversed, I bet the Civic would be winning the war (although probably not by the same margin).
BTW, this is also why I believe the Volt and Leaf will eat a lot of Prius sales. Since those are close to 200K/yr, it’s another tangible reason why GM should be planning for 200K/yr production when “fully” ramped up and not 50K. 50K could be phase I and the next phase to be implemented would jump production from there in say 2013 (kinda like Nissan’s plans).
+1
May 15th, 2010 (5:57 pm)Hee hee… how true. Of the 200 or more Prius I have seen with bumper stickers. Only one had a McCain sticker. And that sticker disappeared right after the election. The rest were pro demos. Think Sarah Palin has a lock on the Alaska plate CHOPRHNT?
BTW: The latest headline on the price of oil is the conclusion… “Oil prices drop on lower future demand”. Down $12 per barrel in a month. Even if it’s halved to $36 per barrel the Volt is still the way to go.
=D-Volt
+3
May 15th, 2010 (6:11 pm)Hi, just to clear up a few things. As many of you know, I write a piece for the site here every 6-7 days or so. Sometimes, the piece I have ties into something else that Lyle also has some info on, in this case some related Q&A with a Nissan rep, and Lyle decided to add it into the piece because of the similarities/overlap.
Many times a story here at the site needs some last minute modifications or additions/deletions before it goes live; today changes/modifications had to be made on the fly, sometimes I can do that, sometimes I am not available, but I always give Lyle free range over whatever content I post-no problem at all with me, and to his credit (or detriment, lol) he pretty much lets me run wild.
I think Lyle’s notation of Editor’s Note is more than enough to avoid any confusion between what I wrote and the information he added (and as GXT mentioned earlier, we have very different writing styles anyway-just in case there was still some confusion in the title)…he also had some good stuff to boot on the reservation priority sequence and the next ‘event’ from Nissan at the end of next month. (Just as FYI, my piece is still there 100% as how I wrote it…as it always is)
In other words…it is all good, (=
+2
May 15th, 2010 (6:43 pm)Yes. +1
+2
May 15th, 2010 (6:51 pm)That’s right. And no one holds a gun to the dealer’s head when they as customer buy a car at a discount. Free negotiation is by far better than controlled prices. Controls produce all sorts of under the table actions. Better for the buyer, seller, and manufacturer to simply adjust the price up or down, depending on supply and demand.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (6:54 pm)Well, Obama seems to want restrictions placed on every industry. Combine that with Schwarzenegger’s taxes and registration fees…. Dang! I’m telling you, working on a cruise ship as a bartender is starting to sound pretty good… ‘cept I’m too old for that. But it does sound good right now.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (7:19 pm)Interesting question: What’s the percentage preference to Volts as a function of EV range?
I believe GM has a limited window here – once the “Leafs” get up to 200 miles the % of people who prefer EREVs will plummet.
How long will that take? 2 years? 3? When will Volt’s really come to market? 2 years? 3?
May 15th, 2010 (7:43 pm)I hope the Leaf (brilliant naming concept – I always wanted to drive something that was part of a tree) folks over at Nissan aren’t gearing up for a stampede of eager buyers.
May 15th, 2010 (8:06 pm)Thank you koz, you get what I’m talking about. ‘The prius effect’.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (8:30 pm)LOLOLOLOL, +10 for you!
You beat them all to the punch! HAHAHAHA!
GO EV!!! with whatever you can afford and/or get your hands on!
May 15th, 2010 (8:34 pm)Err, Nissan has already announce the 200 mile range battery for 2nd GEN LEAF in 2013, and this is old news!
GO EV !!!
+1
May 15th, 2010 (8:37 pm)I just don’t get this attitude. We are just coming out of a financial crisis brought about by THE LACK of regulation on the financial sector and you’re complaining about TOO MUCH regulation? Like I said, I truly don’t get it.
I also don’t get the taxes complaint. As an empirical matter we’re undertaxed relative to the services we demand government provide. Everyone wants clean water from the tap, roads, sewers, schools, an army, a navy, an air force, Social Security, and the big one, Medicare. And on and on and on. This stuff doesn’t grow for free on tress. Like I said, I just don’t understand the attitude. Especially from someone who says they’re older, because the 62+ year old group is the beneficiary of the vast majority of federal social spending.
Income taxes are too high in CA. No doubt about that. No doubt corporate income taxes are too high as well. And the registration fee is a huge irritation. (Compared to the personal property tax in VA it’s beyond minor BTW). But that’s because of the Prop 13 limit on property taxes. As a governance matter, it’s better to have a mix of taxes because you don’t get the swings you do when you’re overly dependent on one type of tax.
May 15th, 2010 (8:55 pm)Bingo, Tag! That’s the problem, no one really knows how much gas the VOLT will need since it will want to run the engine whenever it’s programmed to do so. But the LEAF can’t. That’s the one thing the LEAF can’t do….is burn GAS!
I think that everyone should hope that BOTH the LEAF & VOLT succeed for those who need a 100 mile range EV vehicle or 40 mile range EV with gas backup vehicle. Since if these vehicles don’t succeed we’ll never break our addiction to OIL.
I just prefer the LEAF, since I know I’ll never have to buy the ever-changing cost of gas to make it to work & back (30 mile total range, with more to spare!)
GO EV !!!!
May 15th, 2010 (9:03 pm)Too late GXT!! Familiar with the “Jumped the Shark” comment. Once news came out regarding the LEAF, especially regarding the pricing, this site “jumped the shark”. I still check in each day to see what negative stuff is spreading from this site regrading the LEAF.
Plus, I promise Tag that I’d report back with REAL, ACTUAL operating figures regarding the LEAF when I start driving mine in the PNW this coming winter…
GO EV !!!!
May 15th, 2010 (9:29 pm)As Nissan ramps up and increases numbers and gets more customer interest, GM sclaes back numbers. What a great business plan for the tax payers. All the interest and yet many will still scream range anxiety! and Power utility problems. The carcus fellow is correct. All your mindless bable on range anxiety, grid utility misconception and “Ugly car” is just your lame excuse to defame a product that eill get you off of Oil. The Volt will guarantee you will always be dependent on foreign oil.
Range Anxiety = dependence on foreign oil
+3
May 15th, 2010 (9:36 pm)We demand too much, and the ones that pay no taxes demand the most.. its not a good system since it has no built-in limiter.. tax and expend will inevitably spiral out of control. We need to scrap progressive taxation.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (9:42 pm)Ya, isn’t that interesting.. You’d think surely by now GM has heard the 8,000 9,000 and now over 13,000 people willing to drop a deposit down on the LEAF that they would start accepting deposits for the VOLT, but no, nothing, just quiet on the GM front.
It’s almost the crazy postings on youtube about the VOLT being just a PR stunt are coming true. I wonder about the Whitacre & ExxonMobil connection. Conspiracy theorists, fly with it!!!
GO EV !!!
+1
May 15th, 2010 (10:38 pm)My 2 cents:
Both the Leaf and the Volt have the potential to be disruptive innovations, however my money is on Volt. The key, in my opinion, is that a truly disruptive innovation has to improve consumer quality of life without sacrifice.
Obstacles to both vehicles types being truly disruptive are:
1) Cost — the battery cost has come down so that rebates aren’t necessary (applies to both vehicle). Fortunately, history is in our favor as the cost of new technology usually drops over time as we learn to mass produce them efficiently.
2) Range limitation — This only applies to a pure EV and I believe it must be solved for EV’s to become truly disruptive. Range limitation will require a consumer sacrifice from the convenience offered with current technology (ICE powered vehicles). There will be consumers who are willing to accept range limitation, but I believe the majority of consumers will not and it will hold pure EV back from mass consumer adoption until the problem is economically solved. Mass consumer adoption is required for a technology to be a disruptive innovation. This is going to be a harder problem to fix…in my opinion the technology isn’t there yet and it as a longer way to go.
Thus in my mind, the Volt and EREV vehicles have the best chance at becoming a disruptive innovation.
Cheers!
+1
May 15th, 2010 (11:04 pm)The people who pay a premium for a priority Volt are the same ones that will pay a premium for the GEN2. Or for the future GM crossover EREV. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Anyone here interested in picking up a slightly used Volt for $19,900? Anyone here wish to buy the improved EREV’s that follow the successful launch of the original Volt?
Let the free market system work it’s way though these questions. All of us win the end.
=D-Volt
May 16th, 2010 (3:41 am)This makes sense for the kind of person that drives to work five days a week and sits around home watching TV all weekend. I don’t fit that profile, and I hope most others don’t either. It sounds like a pretty boring life.
My problem, which I think many share, is that I grew up treating automobiles as a tool for broadening my horizons. Even after more than 55 years behind the wheel I still enjoy going for a long drive, just to see what is at the other end of it.
I can live with a Leaf if I have to, but it’s not going to change my way of life. Instead, I’ll just take a gasoline car when I get the urge to roam. No, the Leaf wouldn’t wean me from gas; it would just force me to divide my enjoyment between two cars. And force me to do that before I start each trip.
Not so with a Volt. Every trip starts out electrically. If I roam too far, the car says “no problem” and automatically switches to gas. I’ve been keeping track of how many miles I drive each day, and I’ve mapped those numbers against the results I estimate I would have had if I owned a Volt or if I owned a Leaf. Guess what. It looks like I would burn more gas with a Leaf than with a Volt.
p.s. I think my next trip is going to be to Santa Cruz for the Amgen Tour of California bicycle race. It’s too far to take the Leaf, so I sure wish I had a Volt. Ironically, I plan to take as close a look as I can at the Leaf that is supposed to be displayed there.
May 16th, 2010 (4:32 am)For those special times, you could hook up the genset trailer.
May 16th, 2010 (5:06 am)another article on the battery cost:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/201…-update1-.html
Nissan’s Leaf Battery Maker Targets Lower Cost (Update1)
May 14, 2010, 12:17 PM EDT
By Makiko Kitamura and Takako Iwatani
May 14 (Bloomberg) — Nissan Motor Co., which will start selling its Leaf electric car this year, aims to cut the cost of the vehicle’s lithium-ion battery pack to less than $370 per kilowatt-hour to make a profit from the model.
The target compares with the Japanese government’s industrywide estimate of about 150,000 yen ($1,600) per kilowatt-hour, said Masahiko Otsuka, president of Automotive Energy Supply Corp., a joint venture between Nissan, NEC Corp. and NEC Tokin Corp. that is making the battery for Nissan.
“Our target is a lot tougher” than $370, Otsuka said in an interview yesterday at AESC’s headquarters in Zama City, west of Tokyo. The cost depends on factors including the scale of production as well as resale value for recycling, he said, declining to give a time frame for the target.
The lithium-ion battery, which stores 24 kilowatt-hours of energy, is the most expensive component of the Leaf, which will sell for $32,780 in the U.S. and 3.76 million yen in Japan before government incentives for consumers. Nissan is introducing the Leaf in response to government emissions rules and potentially higher oil prices.
Nissan’s battery currently costs about 1.05 million yen, or $472 per kilowatt-hour, according to Takeshi Miyao, an analyst in Tokyo at auto consulting company Carnorama. Other components cost about 1.4 million yen, and labor and other indirect costs must be contained to 35 percent of the sticker price to secure a profit, he said.”
May 16th, 2010 (11:01 am)Is Nissan going to offer one for the Leaf as an option?
May 16th, 2010 (11:05 am)The “used car” (secondary) market seems to the next bit of cars-as-we-knew-them to be radically changed by the BEV/EREV. With fewer and simpler moving parts, the age of the car is less important. The biggest variable is the age/use of the battery pack and that seems to be a readily gauged factor. These cars should last a very long time.
That brings us back to the dealers and the car companies as well. They need to figure out how to sell these cars without committing suicide. I remember 5 years ago that GM considered that their fuel-cell “skate-board” chassis could last 30 years. They were considering bolt-on replacement cabins as an alternative to keep revenue coming in. With EV’s, the performance profile is as much about software as hardware. You buy your EV with a sports car body and performance settings, then when the kids come you pop on the minivan, and once they leave the house you go to the land yacht, all on the same chasis/drivetrain.
It will be interesting to see how the marketing plan develops.
May 16th, 2010 (8:11 pm)I like the bottom view of the LEAF too. Different and very aero
There was a gas station that price gouged right after 9/11 — raised prices 50 cents… they have been out of business for a few years now.
I love equations, but this one is a little hard to take.
May 17th, 2010 (2:18 pm)I put my $99 dollars down on Sat. I live in Buckeye, AZ about 31 miles from downtown Phoenix.
I travel there once a week. I do 62 miles round trip. Works for me! Any other travel we go by Air
or train.