GM had gotten significant real world experience with its California-based EV-1 program in the late 90s. Despite the acute PR backlash recalling and crushing the vehicles had on GM, the company did learn a lot about how people live with EVs.
It was this firsthand experience with and knowledge about range anxiety that prompted GM VP Jon Lauckner to adjust Bob Lutz’ pure EV Volt concept to having a lower range and a range extender.
We are in the first year mainstream retail EVs will finally hit the market, with the 100 mile range electric Nissan Leaf and 40 mile extended range Volt due out in the fall. It is unknown how the market will accept these cars, but a new study adds to the growing body of evidence that range anxiety will turn out to be a significant issue.
Cars.com surveyed 1000 prospective buyers and found that 54% were very concerned about range anxiety they might have in pure electric cars like the Nissan LEAF or Mitsubishi iMiEV. A robust 43% of respondents said they drove too much to even consider such cars.
These prospective customers also did not appear to be patient about charging. A total of 41% said they believed the cars needed to be able to be recharged in under 2 hours.
The study participants were randomly selected and the study was carefully designed so that the group would closely mirror the US population.
The study did not ask the group which they would choose between an EV or Volt, though as Bob Lutz has said, GM internal research revealed that number to be 83%.
In the beginning, early adopters with our varying motives will buy up all the Volts and Leafs that can be made. Nissan is aiming for 25,000 pre-orders by launch, and now have already exceeded 8000. Since GM will only build 8000 Volts from December 2010 to December 2011, they will all surely be sold as well.
It is really the next stage beginning in 2012 when GM and Nissan significantly ramp up production, and other major players like Ford and Toyota come in with plugin cars, that we will find out which vehicle type shall dominate.
It is most likely sales will include a healthy mixture of pure EVs, extended range EVs, and plug-in hybrids that cater to different subgroups within the greater population. Pure EVs are likely to remain the smallest group.
Source (USA Today)
+15
May 14th, 2010 (6:27 am)The only real thing that I think is “for sure” is that a 100 mile BEV would not be considered for a single vehicle household, as it has too many limitations at this time.
However, as a second vehicle, I think the market is quite large. My wife could use a BEV without any problems. However, she laughed when I showed her a picture of the Leaf and the iMiev. If the manufacturers want to sell BEV cars, they are going to have to work on the styling……….
JMHO
NPNS
+8
May 14th, 2010 (6:33 am)Well, pure EVs may not be for everyone, but I think it will have its buyers. Anyway, given the low production numbers, it should be possible to sell them. If only 10% considered buying an EV, it would probably be more than enough for the next two years.
And every vehicle – EV or EREV – will reduce comsumption of oil.
In two years, it may be a different thing. But who knows what will be in two years.
+33
May 14th, 2010 (6:35 am)so 46% weren’t very concerned with range anxiety. There are only 2 mainstream EV’s that are going to be available in the next year (25,000 Leafs and 10,000 Volts) representing 0.35% of cars sold in the US if you base that on 10,000,000 cars sold a year here. If those 1000 respondants acurately represent the 10,000,000 car buyers of 2011 we have a potential 4.6 million car buyers a year that aren’t worried about range anxiety.
IMHO the only thing that can sabotage the Volt and EV’s in general is cost. How much of a premium are people willing to pay to get off oil? I am very encouraged because Nissan set the bar very high (err low) with a $25,000 EV. If GM is in that neighborhood 29K or lower, It will be 2020 before the wait list to buy a volt dies down.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (6:53 am)You make a good point, but I still think there are some got-chas in this scenario.
For example, let’s say I forget to plug in one night and my wife needs the other car the next morning. Given my typical state of mind when I come home at night, and the fact that I have to plug in every night, forgetting to plug in will happen way more often than running out of gas.
Or what if there if there’s a heat wave that causes a power outage that lasts for 36 hours. This has happened here before.
Or what if my wife’s car breaks down and someone in the family needs to go further than your BEV range?
Or what if you’re away from home, not plugged in, and it’s really cold outside. Pure BEVs have real problems in cold weather.
Also, all things being equal, a BEV-100 will cost around $4000 more than an equivalent EREV-40. For example, if Nissan has a cheaper better battery, lower company overhead, etc, then they should be able to produce an EREV-40 version of the Leaf for around $4000 less.
So then people bring up maintenance on the gas range extender as a big cost item, but for a typical driver the ICE will only be used for around 20,000 miles over the life of the car. So we’re talking about a synthetic oil change once a year, and maybe other fluid changes at 5 years. probably $800 in ICE maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle. So even with maintenance costs figured in the BEV-100 is still $3000 more.
Now let’s figure how much gas a BEV will actually save. If you use another car for longer trips, and just compare a BEV-100 to an EREV-40 for local driving, I calculate 12 gallons per year for a typical driver. And if you have an E85 station near you, that goes down to 1.8 gallons of gasoline per year.
So my real question is this: Is it worth dealing with the potential issues above just to save a few extra gallons a year?
I believe most people will answer no to the question, and that’s why EREV sales will dominate, even in multi-car families.
+25
May 14th, 2010 (6:54 am)Rather than trying to undercut the competition with FUD about range anxiety, gm could seize the initiative by having Volts for sale now for delivery later this year and early next year, and getting the early Volts into the hands of people who would be enthusiastic buyers, people willing and able to talk about what they are and what they do. The 8000 people who ordered the Leaf are lost orders for the Volt, directly attributable to the lackadaisical way the Volt has be sold. (Yes, its use for PR has been well done, but so far no cars have been ordered or sold, because gm has not provided a way to do that.)
The result is that in the 2010 Consumer’s Digest Complete 2010 Car Guide, purchased yesterday at Barnes and Noble, Volt is not even mentioned as a current car, or as a car to be introduced in 2010-2011 or as an upcoming car. In the Consumer Reports New Car Ratings, it is listed, essentially as just another small car, but with no data. What’s going on here? GM is taking an outstanding product and letting it slide into invisibility.
But it is not too late. The goal has to be to get real cars on the road and into the hands of people who will talk about it, even rave about it. There are plenty of people at gm marketing who, if given a chance, can find a way to do that. And, it would be so much more positive and actually generate income. Why give Nissan and Mitsu all the shots?
+4
May 14th, 2010 (6:54 am)Well, range anxiety is real…ever been 20 miles from the next town when the gas gauge is on “E”? I’m so glad that the Volt will only have that form of range anxiety to worry about (no different from any other vehichle on the road today).
I’m also excited that the counter on the Home page that tells us when the Volt wheels will be hitting the road to our driveways is less than 200!
Go Volt!
+3
May 14th, 2010 (7:01 am)OT
I live in the DC area and decided to hop on down to my local Chevy dealer yesterday to have a Volt talk since I could theoretically be volting around by the end of the year. Unfortunately, at this stage in the game, they didn’t have too much information. They were aware that the “Volt is the car with the plug”, that others had come in expressing interest and that their GM had driven one and said it was “nice”. But other than that there wasn’t any real knowledge of the Volt or of this site. I, of course, passed along this website address so that they could start getting beefed up on their future product.
At this time there apparently isn’t an official wait list but that may change. Anyway, the lines of communication are now open and I’ll hopefully be getting some more information soon.
+8
May 14th, 2010 (7:03 am)Yes, you point out perhaps the most important finding of the survey. That’s a lot of people who are willing and ready. It’s what you see in the Leaf numbers, said to be 8,000 above but nearly 15,000 or so as quoted by the Nissan leadership. GM needs to get moving and get a competitive product out in the marketplace. If it does, Volt may eat their lunch, but it can’t do that while it is still being held back.
+7
May 14th, 2010 (7:05 am)You have to wonder, at this time just 6 months from its introduction, what gm management is actually doing. Sleeping? Changing the titles on the door and moving furniture? Perhaps. But they really do need to get moving. And they can, if they will.
The public rationale for a small number of dealerships was all the special training that was going to be given at these places. As that is obviously not happening, maybe gm needs to start again, learn from Nissan, and organize a national strategy.
There is so much opportunity now, if gm will just seize the moment.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (7:06 am)Given that 2011 will, by all indications, be nothing more than a big field test, pitting EREV Volts against BEV Leafs. I hope Nissan sells a lot of Leafs, so there will be lots of real people to report that they wish they had a range extender, and Volts will have even more reason to sell like “hotcakes”, an GM will have more reasons to expand the lineup of EREV vehicles.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (7:09 am)I guess “a lot” is a relative term. For plug-ins to make a difference, they will have to sell by the millions. I don’t think there is a market for millions of pure BEVs. Once the Volt gets some competition, I do think there will be a market for millions of EREVs.
May 14th, 2010 (7:11 am)Yes, +1.
+6
May 14th, 2010 (7:16 am)I fully agree that the Volt will be a superior car, if, as, and when it actually exists as a real car that can be purchased.
As you can see, I’m anxious for that day to come soon, before millions have purchased something else. Once they do, those buyers, being human, are going to defend their purchase as the best choice and simply adjust their behavior to its limitations. That will make it much harder for Volt or EV-ER (as gm seems to call it these days) to make inroads into that group. It is the same as with Prius buyers.
So now is the moment. Wake up gm. Do something.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (7:17 am)My first reason for not buying one is because the Leaf is a Nissan…..not American owned company. Even if it were, I would never buy a car that is so limited.
I don’t think Nissan knows it yet, but this car will never be a big hit like they think it will. At first they will sell many to a small group and once that group is saturated, the sales will peter down to a very little amount.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (7:18 am)Range anxiety will be a fact of life for virtually all BEV owners. I would love to have the 100 mile range of the Leaf but would never choose it over the Volt at anything close to comparable prices. I hope that battery technology is so rapid that EV ranges will increase a lot without adding much or any cost to the battery pack but a generator will still be a necessity for those of us that are figuring out how to actually pay for one!
May 14th, 2010 (7:18 am)I would buy a EV if I could stop at a (gas) station and buy a range extender battery say 20 miles for $2.00 this would be a rechargeable battery with a core charge that if necessary I would exchange again in 20 more miles. It would be a pain but I would never be stranded.
Tom
+2
May 14th, 2010 (7:26 am)From the article:
These prospective customers also did not appear to be patient about charging. A total of 41% said they believed the cars needed to be able to be recharged in under 2 hours.
I am surprised by the patience of these people. 2 hours is a long time.
In order for EVs to completely replace ICE vehicles, I strongly believe charging needs to be only a few minutes and the range extended to a few hundred miles at minimum.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (7:29 am)GM is now doing what they should have been doing for decades. That is to refine their products to as close to perfection as possible. The Volt has been talked about for a long time so the world will be looking to find faults more than ever!!
May 14th, 2010 (7:32 am)And this would require a 500,000 watt charging connection, which is inherantly unsafe.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (7:40 am)Perfecting the Volt is an excellent thing to do, and having owned some gm duds I am very pleased that the Volt seems to be enjoying a much higher level of refinement that some cars of yesteryear. I doubt Volt will get more scrutiny than any of the many other new gm cars, as most of the world sees Volt as just another gm car. Nonetheless, for sure Volt will get a lot of detailed evaluation, so like you I want it to be close to perfect as is practical in the real world.
Marketing and engineering development can go on at the same time, however. It’s great that the second is happening. Why not the first, also?
+4
May 14th, 2010 (7:40 am)I’m not saying it doesn’t have its problems now.
I am just saying that it needs to happen. How we get there is a different story.
+7
May 14th, 2010 (7:48 am)The 8000 people who ordered the Leaf. And the thousands who have ordered other EV. Are the word of mouth advertising that GM has waited for. Just need to make the Volt available. When the first 2000 or 3000 Volt have reached the consumer. We will begin phase two of word of mouth advertising.
Good point. Why do the manufacturers make low end cars that look low end? Seems that Ford realized this with the 2002 Focus. And has styled up year by year. Fiat got the idea 40 years ago with the Spider.
=D-Volt
+6
May 14th, 2010 (7:50 am)The Nissan Leaf web site shows a young Japanese woman hooking up the quick charge cable at a quick charge station. The cable is big but does not seem heavy or hard to attach. Rather, their video makes it appear to be a simple procedure.
+5
May 14th, 2010 (7:53 am)More foot dragging by GM. There is an undeniable link between Big Oil and terrorism. Sectors of our government secure our oil interests overseas by means of occupation, and even invasion when opportunity knocks. But I blame the automakers more than I blame big oil. The automakers have the ultimate power to put an end to this. They’ve had over a century to develop, perfect, market, and sell an electric vehicle and viable power source. But, alas, the hand of Big Oil is deep inside the pockets of the automakers. Wake up, people. Enough excuses from the automakers about why “it’s too soon,” or “more research needed,” or “our competitors are doing a better job,” etc. See what’s going on here? Let’s bury Big Oil and the terrorists along with them.
+7
May 14th, 2010 (7:54 am)Game, Set, Match!
GM used the survey information it gained from the EV1 to design the VOLT. They know they have the superior EV ( as we all believe) and are almost ready to bring it to market.
They need to continue the game plan by being prepared to build to the demand all of expect is there. If other car companies really want to be in the game they will have to bring their own range extended EV to the market sooner or later.
Now is the time for GM to implement their survey and research data to build a healthy market share with the VOLT.
I think the VOLT demand will be strong enough they will need to run their first assembly plant 24/7. And if another survey is true ( 25% of next car buyers would buy electric) the future is very bright for GM and the VOLT. ….. and ….. I am ready to buy.
+6
May 14th, 2010 (7:54 am)The surveys findings of 2 hr recharge is nonsense once they think that through. Most people would charge overnight while they are sleeping. The standard 8 hr. charging will be very attractive to most people with garages. This is a non-issue for the Volt but it is for the Leaf.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (7:58 am)There will be lots of stories in the news about LEAFs leaving people stranded, most of the “incidents” will be manufactured by the reporters… we really dont need to encourage that.
+5
May 14th, 2010 (8:00 am)As Rashiid said in #17:
“In order for EVs to completely replace ICE vehicles, I strongly believe charging needs to be only a few minutes and the range extended to a few hundred miles at minimum. “
That would require a 500,000 watt connection, which looks like this:
No problem
+2
May 14th, 2010 (8:06 am)Why exactly does this need to happen?
What’s wrong with a future of EREVs and bio-fuels?
+6
May 14th, 2010 (8:07 am)The study of the day really doesn’t give the EV much credit as a car never mind when compared to an EREV. Polling the average guy isn’t quite valid yet. Too much EV ignorance out there. How many of you do NOT own a second car. If a GM EV were cheap enough, I’d buy one to get back and forth. Go to work, do the 9 to 5, come home and plug in. No porblem. EV’s are really that simple.
Great second car!
A little expensive to buy right now, but ultimately a pretty cheap way to get around. In January in Ontario, the Tesla will be the best one around. Hands down. If the Leaf added more than a fan on the battery, more people might consider one, but battery conditioning isn’t a part of any design plans I’ve seen.
As a mainstream primary vehicle the Volt is just a little bit too small. It’s the perfect car to replace the Prius. Watch the Toyota marketing machine go to work when the Volt worldwide production plants need government money and tax breaks (Toyota already has a significant study out in France poo pooing the 40 mile range!). In the US maybe the Orlando EREV would be ok! A lot like the first Honda minivan. Remember how small that was around here? Maybe Chevy canned the Orlando in the US (Canada is getting one though) to create a dedicated EREV SUV/microvan and not cannibalize it’s own ICE lineup. Maybe.
It’s going to take a lot maintain quality and create a domestic crossover EREV that we can buy to replace our primary ride of the Traverse (or minivan, or whatever takes us all around) and other full sized SUV’s. Cafe goals should say that the EREV SUV is a no brainer.
I’d like to see the study of primary vehicles that are sold above $35k. What will be the balance of price, economy, utility and comfort that would make the SUV EREV something to save our money for and make a buck for GM? What’s going to replace that Vuick? I haven’t heard.
In the marketing department, I guess Chevy has to justify the ICE somehow. Marketing the Volt against the Prius or Impact plays right into the hybrid price point advantage but that’s where the sales will be coming from. That ICE powered 53kw generator needs to be justified for the expense as well as downplayed as part of the marketing for a electric car. No small feat.
GM put an awful lot together to get the Volt where it is today. Buy one, take everyone out for a drive, demand more.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (8:07 am)I’d like to test how much more range efficiency there is to be seen with those Goodyear tires that are designed for EV’s/Volt.
I need to buy tires next week. Having 96,000 miles of fuel consumption experience with the OEM supplied Goodyear tires that came on the 05 Element that I drive (this second set of the original OEM spec Goodyears are now worn out) , this would be a good thing to be able to share right here to help others to be able to decide to upgrade.
Noel,
What was the exact tire you bought for your vehicle, and what kind of vehicle was that?
How many tanks of gas have you driven so far on them? I’m expecting to need to run at least 10 tanks of gas to be able to have even a very rudimentary sample of some sort of indication, which is fairly difficult to distill down with all the co-variables of temperature, loads, etc.
Measurable significance (minimum confidence level) would be a minimum of a 7% difference (an astonishing improvement if actually attained), then, that is the percent that might be the minimum observable difference for, say, at least 10 tanks of gas for the driving characteristics for my type of business driving @ 95% highway @ 50 to 60mph @ 19,500 miles a year.
(…off to work, have a great day everyone!)
+4
May 14th, 2010 (8:11 am)They need to continue the game plan by being prepared to build to the demand all of expect is there. If other car companies really want to be in the game they will have to bring their own range extended EV to the market sooner or later.
If GM is worried about sales volume they only look at prius volume do they think is is a hit because it is fun to drive or has good looks no. My wife has one it is the most boring car and the least fun with the worst handling POS I have ever driven but it gets 52 MPG in the summer .
Tom
+2
May 14th, 2010 (8:11 am)LOL,
The average Japanese residence barely has 5 kilowatts of energy available to it.
500,000 watts “just ain’t gonna happen”.
(/….really late now, have a great day!)
+1
May 14th, 2010 (8:17 am)See post #4.
May 14th, 2010 (8:18 am)OMG! That’s a big plug-in you got there!
+8
May 14th, 2010 (8:38 am)I told you so !
Range anxiety is real, and it’s scary – especially to women, who mind being stranded much more than men do.
And I said it before – 100 mile range = a 50 mile leash under the best conditions (no AC, no heat, no radio, no headlights, etc). The leash can become much shorter under various conditions (AC, heat, etc above, plus any traffic jams, unexpected detours, or emergency side trips that can occur without warning. The Volt can handle the unexpected – the Leaf, well, it can’t. The Leaf is a limited use car at best.
When prospective buyers stop “feeling”, and start thinking, the choice is clear. Sweat bullets in the Leaf, or drive with confidence in a Volt. Your choice.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (8:41 am)Ya’know those little gas-powered Honda Generators…? I’m wondering if there will be a bunch of those for sale in the accessories department at every Nissan Dealer. At our dealership we offer aftermarket LoJack systems. But LEAF buyers will need another kind of “security” system on board. Hee-Hee!
+5
May 14th, 2010 (8:42 am)Since GM will only build 8000 Volts from December 2010 to December 2011, they will all surely be sold as well.
Only 8,000 Volts the first year!
Lyle, how many of the 51,951 people on your list are in the U.S.?
Assuming 261 business days a year, that’s around 30 Volts a day.
Lyle, please try and get GM to consider your list. I’m willing to go to Detroit to pick-up my Volt.
NPNS!
+1
May 14th, 2010 (8:48 am)Lyle, How about an article on the current state of Dealership mechanic training for the Volt?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (8:48 am)______________________________________________________________________
I predict 40% BEV & 60% EREV through 2020 then vast majority BEV past 2020.
Electric Cars will appeal only to “Early Adopters” until such time a consumer can purchase an Electric Vehicle (BEV) that is no more than a 25% price premium to a comparable traditional ICE car and has 150+ miles range with quick charge capability (80% SOC in under 10 minutes at a quick charge station and assuming there is a reasonable available network of these stations). Many Early Adopters will purchase a BEV then trade to an EREV; few will go the other way.
The size of the Early Adopter potential market is the big question mark because often there exists a big disconnect between what one says others need to do to improve the world vs. what one is prepared to do with their own lives and money. Rhetoric is cheap and bountiful, action requires commitment and payment. That is why I have developed so much respect for Lyle and the Volt Development Team; they have dedicated personal commitment and payment towards the Electric Car Revolution.
__________________________________________________________________
+2
May 14th, 2010 (8:55 am)I read an article on the internet about a company that can quick charge within 3 minutes up to 50% SOC. (EVWorld?) So new technology will solve the problem. The company mentioned gave a price well below other manufacturers but said that it would still be to expensive for smaller gas stations to afford. If I find the link, I’ll post it for all.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
May 14th, 2010 (8:58 am)#4 Dave G says:
” let’s say I forget to plug in one night and my wife needs the other car the next morning. Given my typical state of mind when I come home at night, and the fact that I have to plug in every night, forgetting to plug in will happen way more often than running out of gas.”
Your wife’s a nice lady. God help ME if it happened again!! LOL
We should live on an island (like Japan) a hundred mile range would last a week.
Forget the marketing and studies until we get some real miles on electricity. One EREV and one EV would be great in my driveway.
ps the average annual mileage of a car in Japan is about 5k.
May 14th, 2010 (9:00 am)Yes, +1.
And I would add two more issues:
1) Cold weather
2) Forgetting to plug in
Cold weather is a real problem for BEVs. With a cold battery, most of the stored energy is blocked, so the range goes way, way down. At very cold temperatures, it’s possible the BEV won’t even go at all.
And from all evidence, forgetting to plug in will also be a real issue. This will happen to the best of us. Even Lyle forgot to plug in his mini-E once or twice. Some people compare this to running out of gas, but that’s apples and oranges. Given my typical state of mind when I come home at night, and the fact that I have to plug in every night, forgetting to plug in will happen way more often than running out of gas. I don’t think I’m alone here. If forgetting to plug-in is a common occurrence, then this gives EREVs a huge advantage.
This is a really good point. Many pure BEV advocates seem to make convincing arguments, but when you dig deeper, it usually boils down to emotional reasoning, usually involving dreams of some future utopia where practicality doesn’t matter.
+4
May 14th, 2010 (9:01 am)2 hour charging — compared to what? I wonder what the multiple choice question looked like. I don’t see 2 hour charging as being much better than 3 hour charging or much worse than 1 hour charging.
When i’m out and about I tend to drive for 20 miles to get to the shopping center, park for 30 minutes — drive a couple of miles, park for 1 hour — drive/park, 3,4 times… Little drives, long parks, 8 hour e-f recharge time would be fine – if parking lots offered plugin service.
Surveys tend to be misleading.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (9:03 am)You can’t sell what you don’t make so I doubt EREV will dominate. It could dominate but at these production levels this doesn’t seem to be in the cards.
Dealers don’t like the Volt which is probably one reason why GM isn’t committed to making them. If you’re a dealer why would want to sell a Volt? Dealers try to break even on new car sales and then make money on the service department. BEVs and EREVs will severely hurt this business model. Not that there are a lot of service issues with ICE cars, but take out some things like brake jobs and transmission problems and you’re just reducing service revenue.
I don’t think the technology has been there. You need a battery and there just hasn’t been one.
But yes, GM is not gung ho behind EREV technology. There are a number of reasons for this. It has Whitacre as its CEO, and he’s turning out to be the wrong guy for the job. At SBC he grew the business through acquisition not organically, and he’s on the same path at GM (spending bucks for Opel and now trying to reincarnate GMAC). No vision from him. For reasons stated above the dealers don’t like EREV — no opportunity for more income for them. Internally you have all the engineering resources devoted to engines — these interests are compromised by the Volt and EREV. And then of course you have the hydrogen unicorns — they definitely see the EREV as a rival. When you start adding it up it’s amazing that EREV has managed to come this far.
May 14th, 2010 (9:09 am)… and they’ll only need to sit on the side of the road with that buzzing generator for a half hour or so before they can drive away!
+3
May 14th, 2010 (9:09 am)Not really, all that needs to happen is for gas to go to about $6 a gallon.. what would be the pricepoint at which you would put up with the LEAFs limitations?. As it stands now, the LEAF can probably meet the needs of 25% of the drivers on the road.
Yes you can sustainably make ethanol at under $2 a gallon, but supplies of that will not be enough for the whole nation.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:11 am)or wait an hour for AAA, and when they arrive all they are going to do is hook up their own Honda generator
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:13 am)I would say the complexity. Without all the extra stuff of an ICE vehicle, (and I did say ICE before) more batteries can be used giving people more range. We won’t need bio-fuels then, although I strongly support their use now. ICE is ICE and before it can be replaced with BEVs, the BEVs have to improve along with the charging capabilities.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:16 am)This is what no survey can take into account; because as a culture, we are so fixated on the “gas station” scenario. Plugging in where you have to park for awhile anyway represents a paradigm shift as great as going from the corral and watering trough to the gas station (and I think given a chance, most people will appreciate this shift in where their ‘fuel’ comes from).
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:17 am)“The Cars.com survey of more than 1,000 consumers found 54% were most concerned with “range anxiety” in all-electric vehicles such as the Nissan Leaf or Mitsubishi’s MiEV, pictured above. Some 43% said they drive too far to even consider a Leaf or other EVs with a 100-mile range.”
So where did they get these 1000 people? 80% of drivers in the US drive 40 miles per day *or less*. My wife drives 10 miles per day *or less*. Heck, she drives zero miles on Thu, Sat, and Sun. I gotta take her car to work on Thursdays to just keep the liquids stirred up.
That said, she doesn’t like LEAF’s or Prius’ styling, Volt is pretty small, and Ford is on her crap list. If she was in the survey group, she would say ‘no way’ as well.
I believe there is resistance to change and very little understanding of what their actual usage is. Plus, there are no EVs on the market right now to even get an educated driver sample.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (9:20 am)Range anxiety is what it is. If you have it, then don’t buy a BEV.
If not, then the BEV may be your next car. Everyone has different needs, and if only 3% of car buyers fit the BEV mold, then the Leaf will be a success, along with future BEV’s.
I like the EREV concept, and the fact that I am able to travel untethered, but I also love the simplicity of the BEV, and believe it will ultimately become the car of choice. Maintenance of an ICE is a combination of both mileage and time, so you cannot extrapolate the costs of maintaining an ICE with 15,000mi/yr to one with 1,500mi/yr and come up with a 10% cost. Mother time takes its toll on anything that can degrade. The Volts ICE will not be excluded.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (9:22 am)The Volt addresses range anxiety with an on board generator, the Leaf with their “EV-it” technology will constantly tells you your driving radius, and as charging station infrastructure is added, it will tell you where the in range ones are located. So the survey probably did not include that option.
However, the “range anxiety” of potential buyers is valid: I too will not be in the market for a Leaf until it sports a real world range of 150 miles because I routinely drive about 60 miles one way to LAX (north) and the San Diego and Zoo (South).
+17
May 14th, 2010 (9:24 am)The *DAY* that GM announces the price of the Volt, they should offer to take $1000 deposits from the people on the list for at least 7 of the 8 thousand production Volts. That should do at least three things: A) Show GM that their fears of low demand are unfounded B) allow them to ramp up production IMMEDIATELY since they would no longer have any Volts left to SELL and C) provide a great PR item for GM.
It would also go a long way to assure the folks here that any fears of niche market, halo car plans by GM are unfounded (or not). JMO.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (9:27 am)Well, there you go again Dave G, with your giant plug! (Oops, wrong president).
It is certainly within the realm of engineering possibility to develop under-car access, simple robotics (or some combination of the two), to take the dangerous connection out of the drivers’ hands. One has to be capable of thinking outside of the engineering box.
However, when taking into account the need for a business case, one cannot escape the need for a sufficient volume of customers for the service (high-rate charge could only be offered where industrial power hookup is available, at the equivalent of a filling station pump). When will this happen? It would take years of the most optimistic Nissan sales projections to build up even a small fraction of the national fleet. There is no thinking outside of this economic box.
If BEVs take and keep the early lead, and grow quickly to greater ranges, it will be much more likely for fast-charge of some kind to appear; which is all the more reason for the EREV to proliferate as quickly as possible.
Any attempt to make fast-charge happen before it can be economically sustained will be extremely wasteful. The more BEV owners who write to their Congressmen, the more likely a government crash program becomes (and “crash” is the operative word). It will be better all the way around if more BEV owners become Volt owners, instead.
+4
May 14th, 2010 (9:28 am)I wonder how many people that were surveyed have ever tried to live with an electric car. I have one of the MINI-E’s like Lyle does and have been driving it for the past 11 months. I have 30,200 miles on it in eleven months and live virtually “range anxiety” free. Pure electrics are not for everybody and the Volt will be a great way to offer an electric to those who need a further single charge range, but People that have never lived with an EV are the people that have range anxiety. I’d like to see them survey people the have and electric car as their daily driving, commuter car and see how many of them tell you they have range anxiety. I would guess it would be somewhere around 5 to 10%. Those people have driving demands that do arent met by the current range limitations of the EV they care driving.
+4
May 14th, 2010 (9:30 am)==============================
Dave:
There will always be gotchas, but:
If you forget to plug in, it will probably only happen once or twice at the most. Then you will put a little note on the counter where you put your keys that says “Plugged in?” to remind yourself….
If you have regular power outages, I would consider a whole house generator, or solar panels for the roof. But I can’t remember the last time our power was off here for more than two hours.
If the wife breaks down too far away, borrow a car from the neighbor, or call a tow truck. Again, how often does that happen? If she has a Volt, it should be never!!!
As far as cold weather performance, until these cars are on the road, and there is some real world data, that one is an unknown. I don’t think it is fair to use the Mini as a benchmark, as it is a beta test vehicle, and does not really have anything in place to condition the battery, as far as I know.
JMHO
+2
May 14th, 2010 (9:30 am)I agree!!!
I don’t see the American consumer buying a product that limits their freedom, it goes contrary to everything else we buy. Cell Phones, Laptops, Motorcycles, Boats, Plane Tickets (With Feq. Flyer Miles), etc. all expand our freedom.!!
All it takes is forgetting to plug the car in ONE time or an abmornal day at work when you need to run a last minute errand thats longer then you think or ONE family member/friend/coworker that needs a ride and your unable to do it because you only have ??? miles left of travel distance.
Atleast the LEAF DOESN”T NEED GPS because you can’t get more the 50 freaken miles from your house so surely you know where you’re going….:)
Go Volt.
May 14th, 2010 (9:31 am)Watts are an instantaneous unit. Power is based on time. If you can deliver 5,000 watts/hr, then if you charge overnight for 8 hours, you get 40,000 watt hours of power.
I am not familiar with Japanese residential services, but 5 kW-hr is pretty small. That would be equivalent to about a 40 amp/120V service, or 20 amp/240. Running a oven and a hair dryer at the same time would be a challenge!
May 14th, 2010 (9:31 am)Hey, you found the connector. I like the marketing spin. They show a pair of hands holding it at a distance. Nope, it would be up against his chest because it plus the cable is so dang heavy.
This is why there are multiple suggestions on making the connection easier (drive on or robot arm) that you’ve ignored.
Big and heavy, but not unsafe. I considered it a pain to deal with because it was so heavy, but I was never scared dealing with it.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:31 am)Anybody dealing with that level of “plugging” probably should look into a high-fiber diet!!
May 14th, 2010 (9:35 am)No. New technology won’t solve the problem. The laws of physics can’t be broken.
Since nobody seems to believe this, let me be more specific.
As Rashiid said in #17:
“In order for EVs to completely replace ICE vehicles, I strongly believe charging needs to be only a few minutes and the range extended to a few hundred miles at minimum. “
So this is my basis for the term “fast charging” here. Let’s be clear on that. Many others talk about fast charging and mean something else.
In order to get to a half million watts, you would need both high voltage and high current. High current requires thicker copper wires and large connector contacts, otherwise the power lost in the resistance of the connection will cause excessive heat, which starts to melt things. High voltage requires more insulation around the wire and more space around each connector contact, otherwise the voltage will break down the dielectric barrier and cause a short. This is basic physics. No new technology will solve these issues. So the connector for a 1/2 megawatt connection has to be large.
Now let’s consider environmental issues. The 1/2 megawatt connector I show above is mated in dry conditions. It’s rain tight, but that doesn’t help if the contacts are wet when you connect it. Now imagine you’re driving through a blizzard, and you need to re-fuel. You pull into your quick charging station. The charging station is covered, but you have snow and ice on your car, dripping all over the place.
Now add in the fact that 1/2 megawatt is a sh|tload of power, and you have an average non-technical person making that connection. The thing is going to explode…
Some people say you can check for shorts and then ramp up the power. This is naive. If there’s water or snow near the contacts, it may not short until things warm up at full power.
So you can’t wave a magic wand and say technology will fix it. There are inherent problems.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (9:37 am)Definitely a ‘Plus 10′ !!!!
May 14th, 2010 (9:39 am)===================================
If GM would consider that, I would be willing to put down up to $5K. I would just want to be able to order the car that I want, and get a delivery date that is real……..
But unless something changes at GM, we both know that is just a dream. Ohio and Pennsylvania are not good enough for Gen-1 2011 Volts
+12
May 14th, 2010 (9:43 am)I have plugged in 480 Volt 3 phase pumps and welders dozens of times. All these posts that suggest it is not practicable are silly. Now an elderly lady would not do it, but like in Oregon, the law could require a charging station attendant to “operate” the plug.
In a few years our garage parking spot will be a “docking” port so the car would activate the charger during the off peak price window and would not forget.
Worldwide pre-orders for Leaf now exceed 13,000
The electrification of our vehicles is coming and it is time to lead, follow or get out of the way.
May 14th, 2010 (9:44 am)Thanks for the input. Where in the US are you located? I’m curious only because of the temp effects on BEV’s Perhaps range anxiety would vary with the setting within which the BEV was used.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:50 am)Personally, I think ‘range anxiety’ is an over blown concern.
With a 100 mile range (75 miles nominal) I could easily drive my commute, go to lunch and stop at a store without even getting close to the anxiety level.
The problems for me are price, style and availability.
If I’m going to be in a car for a couple hours a day, I need a comfortable seat, good acceleration and handling, and a descent stereo. The a/c needs to blow cold (I live in Texas) and the car needs to handle monsoon rainstorms.
So far the only proposed or pre-production EV cars that meet these needs are Volt, Karma and Tesla S. LEAF may work, but, I’d have to get over the styling and test the seat.
I’m at the point in my life where I’m no longer an early adopter. I got better things to do than beta-test someone’s newest and greatest idea. I won’t even consider a car that has less than 50,000 copies on the road. I guess that means I’m a Gen III Volt owner.
May 14th, 2010 (9:53 am)Exactly why I suggested it! I’d do the 5K deposit with JUST a date of arrival. The glow from the Volt Smile will cloud any color issues with the car (lol).
I don’t know that I’m quite ready to stop dreaming and move one, but….
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:55 am)Do you just cut and paste from a document on your desktop? Honestly.
1) Automatic connection takes away all of your “non-technical person” anxiety. Scratch that whole paragraph. Fast charge, if it appears, will be done only at professionally run facilities (this won’t be some untended plug in somebody’s parking lot).
2) Connection at two separated points on the car to complete the circuit, instead of a traditional plug’s side-by-side conductors, addresses much of the insulation concern.
3) Waiting to engage the current flow until the connection is established eliminates all arcing concerns.
4) Ramp up current gradually. I can remember electric resistance furnaces. They were wired in three separate sets of connections. This was because the initial surge of powering the furnace would overwhelm any electrical service unless done in thirds. In other words, power ramped up when the furnace started. Gradual ramp-up of some kind (with computer controlled feedback concerning load) would go a long way towards addressing heat and “what if something goes wrong” concerns.
The ECONOMIC barriers are quite sufficient to hold back fast-charging. As long as you only consider “the physics” under worst-case, present practice scenarios, you’re going to get worked up like this. It really isn’t necessary.
The only real fear is that BEVs will take enough of a lead to make establishing fast charge a Governmental National priority; which will waste a great deal of scarce taxpayer money. A proliferation of EREV vehicles will nip this trend off at the bud, and will frankly work out a lot better for the Customer, the Manufacturers, the Nation, and the Planet.
(With apologies to Tagamet):
Let’s Just Get Bunches Of Voltec Models On The Road!!****H2NS (H2 = NonSense)
May 14th, 2010 (10:01 am)This looks like a 3 pase plug?
The 240 v connector you would use for recharge in your home would be much smaller… like your range outlet.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (10:02 am)What makes you believe that GM wants to sell a lot of Volts? While we hear a lot of happy talk from GM, everything GM actually does suggests that it has no real interest in putting Volts on the road in big numbers. Just an observation, and one that I’d rather not have to make, but at some point you have to accept realty.
May 14th, 2010 (10:04 am)I don’t think complexity matters much. For example, have you ever taken apart a VCR? These were incredibly complex, but once mass production kicked in they were cheap and reliable.
Or for a more modern example, do you know what’s inside a cell phone?
And more specifically, modern ICEs are made to go at least 60,000 miles before requiring any maintenance. A typical EREV driver will only put 20,000 miles on the ICE over the entire lifetime of the vehicle.
Now let’s look at the battery pack. There’s heating elements, liquid cooling, an embedded processor with sophisticated software, lots of connections between cells, and specialized connections between groups of cells for fault tolerance. It’s actually quite complex.
Once mass production and competition kicks in, complexity doesn’t matter that much.
Electric drive won’t work for heavy duty long distance travel. Batteries large enough to power 18-wheel trucks across the country are nowhere on the horizon. And you certainly can’t run an airplane on batteries.
So bio-fuels will be required in the future.
May 14th, 2010 (10:07 am)Thanks re #54. With all this “plugging” talk, I think that we need a little “movement” from GM, as in “or get off the pot”! (g)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (10:08 am)Nope, not for this one.
May 14th, 2010 (10:12 am)How many amps? You would need over 1000 amps at 480 volts to get up to 500,000 watts.
Also, how wet were these connectors when you plugged them in?
+1
May 14th, 2010 (10:12 am)Well you also have a 35 kWh battery pack. The Leaf has a 24 kWh pack. You’re also in the first year of using the battery so it is retaining its maximum charge. As a consequence, your “range anxiety free” experience may not translate to different vehicles or even over time to your mini-E.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (10:16 am)Cars.com survery:
“…conducted online by Impulse Research on behalf of Cars.com with a random sample of 1,030 men and women, 18 and older. The sample has been carefully selected to closely match U.S. population demographics, and the respondents are representative of American men and women ages 18 and older. ”
Other random facts not considered in this survey in relation to the subject (EV adoption):
1.) US population 18+ (2010): 233,000,000
2.) Unique estimated individual new vehicle buyers over the past 3 years: 27,000,000
3.) Percentage of unique car buyers that purchased a sedan at/over $30,000: 5% cars purchased last year were 30K+ sedans
Of the 1,030 people survery approximately only 6 of them are qualified (or rather are the historical norm of being able) to give a opinion as potential adopters at this point. You could probably argue variance of +/- 3, but those voices are still muted from the noise of the chaff.
No judgment on the results either way.
/just saying
May 14th, 2010 (10:19 am)Here’s an all too likely scenario from today’s headlines: You’re advised that, due to the economy, you’re being laid off. Do you restrict your job search to the range of your electric car? And depending on your profession or where you live, how limiting a factor is that? Battery-only electric cars require a certain amount of stability to be useful. Real life is filled with uncertainty.
-2
May 14th, 2010 (10:19 am)Some people say you can check for shorts and then ramp up the power. This is naive. If there’s water or snow near the contacts, it may not short until things warm up at full power.
At full power, a half million watts will cause an explosion, and not a small one.
+4
May 14th, 2010 (10:19 am)That is exactly the point that I’m making about the large deposits and commitments – by us and by GM. If GM did as I suggest, it’d go a long way toward clarifying “reality” for *all* of us (and get the doubters off point). Right now you’re speculating one thing and I’m speculating another. Throw down the gauntlet and let’s find out one way or another. End the “Death by a thousand paper cuts”.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-11
May 14th, 2010 (10:24 am)(click to show comment)
May 14th, 2010 (10:24 am)Valid point. Plus there are a lot of biases in an online survey. That said, realistically doesn’t this coincide with your experience? Whenever I mention an EV to someone the first thing out of their mouths is some variation on range anxiety. Over time this may change as people gain experience. Gas prices at $8/gallon would change it instantly because they’d have an incentive to figure out how to make it work, but gas at those prices doesn’t seem to be in the cards.
But asking this question now is like asking if people would like to pay less for their car. The answers are predictable but not illuminating.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (10:29 am)So here is the question. If GM doesn’t do this, then does that prove that it isn’t interested? Personally I don’t think there is the proverbial snowball’s chance in hell of GM adopting your suggestion — because I don’t think they really want to sell EREV at this point — but I’d love to be proved wrong.
May 14th, 2010 (10:30 am)No apologies necessary – I’m pretty much “open source” (and agree) (lol).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (10:31 am)Tag,
I live in Northern NJ. The thing about the range anxiety is that once you get used to how far the car can go (it took me about one month) then you know and don’t sweat it. I know I can get x number of miles per charge so I won’t leave the house if I’m going to need to drive more than that. I have had to deal with road closings and detours, but they rarely cause you to need to go more than a couple miles out of the way so it’s negligible. A 100 mile range Ev wouldn’t work for a single car family, the Volt is the car of choice for those families for sure, but for households with more than one car, I think a true 100 mile EV (and I don’t think the LEAF is a true 100 mile EV) would work for a huge percentage of the population unless you live in extremely remote areas.
Getting back to your temperature question. Personally I would be really hesitant to buy an EV without a sophisticated thermal management system. I think any car company that doesn’t include one is only fooling themselves (Nissan). I’m willing to bet that the LEAF will be retrofitted with one (I spoke to people at Nissan and they are already developing one that could be retrofitted in case the cars in hot & cold regions begin to have serious range issues) within two years and the second generation LEAF that Nissan is claiming will have a 200 mile range will have one from the start.
The MINI-E was slapped together quickly by BMW and will never go into production. They knew it would have cold weather range issues and told us before we agreed to enter the program. The next EV in the BMW pipeline will be on the road next June and is far superior to the MINI-E and the LEAF and has a complex liquid battery temp management system as well as a completely new drivetrain, one that will be used in the 2013 BMW BEV codenamed the Megacity for now.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (10:32 am)Why do you come here, RVD? -3 (Don’t mess with the Almighty Jackson! Bwa-ha-haaa!!)
+3
May 14th, 2010 (10:35 am)#13
Amen. +1
May 14th, 2010 (10:36 am)5) Put the charging device indoors. Drive the car over a motor-driven brush and blower at the entrance. Mount the carside-connections behind hatches or ports which the robot opens.
Next objection?
BTW, I agree that fast-charge is ill-advised, I just do so for entirely different reasons.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (10:40 am)CLASSIC!
+1
+1
May 14th, 2010 (10:41 am)Zach:
BEV’s aren’t for everyone, I said that before. But if you live your live worrying about the uncertainty of it all you might as well make no commitments at all: Why marry someone? They might cheat on you and then you’ll only have to get a divorce. Why buy a three bedroom house? Why if you have triplets? Why take this job? The boss might turn out to be an jerk and you’ll only have to quit and find another.
Sure it can happen, but hell sell the damn thing if you need to. As I said before, I wouldn’t recommend a BEV for a single car family anyway. In most cases, either the husband or wife will have a daily driving requirement of way less than 100 miles. Probably less than 40.
May 14th, 2010 (10:44 am)#36
Yup. My wife won’t even consider the idea of a BEV. +1
I keep telling her that we can plan around it for local driving. Alas, I guess she remembers how many times I’ve run out of gas in the past 35 years, LOL.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (10:44 am)I didn’t suggest the converse, I just noted the pros of actually *doing* it. Being greeted by inaction, suggests only that doubters *may* be right – not that you are (g). I was just offering a suggested “fix” (short of duct tape), for the folks that can only see the darkness.
If GM has done “nothing” (your word, not mine), why are they building the battery assembly plant?
Obviously, my patience with GM is growing short – and *I’M* the penultimate optimist on a largely PRO-VOLT fan site! Given that, I hope that GM takes some further action very soon to allay concerns.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 14th, 2010 (10:47 am)Perhaps no one has been as critical as I have been of GM’s small-scale Volt production goals.
However, at this point we should all at least consider the possibility that cash-strapped GM really cannot ramp up production any faster than announced. Perhaps Statik’s point about available cell timelines is well taken. If so, this is a great pity; and danger: If BEVs get and keep an influential lead, owner-pressure may lead to a government initiative to establish fast-charging prematurely (at huge taxpayer expense); in an effort to make EREV (and ICE-only) unnecessary (I don’t think they could ever succeed, but much taxpayer money would be wasted in an attempt).
I would only suggest that GM consider buying cells from Korea, and seek qualification of other vendors if necessary, to increase Voltec production levels as quickly as possible.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (10:48 am)We keep beating a dead horse.
Range anxiety is real today and will continue to be a problem until someone comes up with batteries good for 300+miles per charge. Since no one is doing that yet, the Volt is the only option in the market place that makes sense for the vast majority of the potential users.
May 14th, 2010 (10:50 am)In a world where a new BEV costs a fortune, while a used ICE car can be had for under $5K, this reaction is a bit over the top. Uncertainty isn’t limited to employment, either. What about unplanned trips to the emergency room? Going to pick up a stranded spouse? Real life is filled with enough uncertainty to give a prospective BEV buyer pause.
I agree with everything else in the comment. A BEV shouldn’t be an “only” car. No, it isn’t for everybody (“so send us your resume …”).
May 14th, 2010 (10:50 am)Most excellent! Thanks a lot for the inside track info – it helps a great deal!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+5
May 14th, 2010 (10:53 am)#45
Well I dunno, but every dealer I have ever talked to has said that they would kill for something to sell against the Prius. When the next gas crunch comes and it’s sell Volts or don’t sell anything, it will start to look pretty good IMHO. Whoever isn’t ready will perish next time for sure.
+5
May 14th, 2010 (10:56 am)Dave G:
“And this would require a 500,000 watt charging connection, which is inherantly unsafe.”
Let’s see, if filling a car’s tank with highly volatile flammable liquid, were just thought of today; that would be considered far too dangerous too.
500kw?
In just 3 minutes, that will give you enough charge for 100 miles; assuming the vehicle is equipped with the appropriate battery etc.
That’s probably more than needed, good for trucks though.
50 miles in 3 minutes, 100 miles in 6 minutes is plenty and quite reasonable; that’s only 250kw and would be all that is needed for super fast charging for cars and quite doable IMO.
You are not going to be walking up to your car armed with a one inch thick cable in each hand, bared copper tips on the ends and a blue corona buzzing away, then having to plunge them onto your battery terminals :0)
Nothing will be connected or disconnected live. There could/would be many safety systems involved i.e. initial integrity mega test, earth leakage, continuity, locking mechanism safety switch, battery codec transfer, status conformation etc. these could all be done within the first couple of seconds. Only after passing all tests would you get system hand shake. Then the power start and ramp up whilst continuously monitoring the appropriate systems.
Emergency shut down would involve solid state switching and/or, with double redundant compressed air electro-mechanical relays if required (these are designed for high power levels and use compressed air that extinguishes any arcs) allowing millisecond shut down in a worst-case scenario.
I really can’t see anything too hard here at all.
Everyday trains generally use 1,000v to 25,000 volts at hundreds of amps and don’t have trouble switching/controlling these high power systems.
You don’t hear of controllers starting fires, train drivers being electrocuted or conductor wires carrying these huge wattages bursting into flames all over the place, considering the millions of miles travelled every year.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (10:57 am)#54
Well we’ve only been suggesting this for about 3 years, and I sure don’t see any movement yet.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (10:58 am)Tom M,
11 months and 30200 miles is about 92 miles a day/ everyday. Obviously this doesn’t happen so you must travel routinely 100+ miles a day. The Mini E is only getting around 80 or so miles a charge, MUCH less in cold temps as Lyle has stated (and he’s in the same area as you). So you HAVE to be charging AT LEAST twice a day, maybe three times during really cold spells. You have made a serious commitment as an early adoptor to do this and have to invest some time, without fail, seveal times a day to be able to state you drive “range anxiety free”. You are not the typical driver at all. And your experience is meaningless to the range anxiety argument for most people.
We have to keep in mind around here sometimes the difference between this group and the “average” driver. It’s a BIG difference and commitments we see as simple and lucid are nothing but hassles to others.
I can’t even get my wife to park the Enclave in the garage because she has to wait for the door to go up sometimes. A garage I built, specifically to have a place to park and charge a Volt. I wouldn’t tell her that though……
+1
May 14th, 2010 (11:09 am)If the government can keep it’s paws off of this long enough, I think we will eventually see EREVs with higher AER (but not at BEV levels) using some kind of fast charging in urban centers. It has often been mentioned that the ideal buyer for a BEV (an urbanite) has no ready place to plug in overnight.
The idea that fast-charge for a 250-mile BEV will be adequate for long-distance driving is probably a fantasy. For one thing, if you have an early enough EREV advantage, there will be much less incentive to buy or build such a BEV.
As you noted, the smaller EREV pack would require much less energy to fast-charge than a hypothetical 250 – 300 mile BEV.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (11:09 am)Yes Zach, I agree it was a bit over the top but I think you understand where I was going. The point I was trying to originally make is that so few people have ever tried to live with an EV that they really don’t know how they would feel driving one every day. Before I got the car I never thought I could live with a 100 mile “leash”. But a funny thing happened after driving the car for a little while, I realized I very rarely ever need to go further than that. I leave my house with a “full tank” every morning. On the rare occasion I need to go further, I take my ICE (one day it will be a Volt) and my wife takes the EV. She works 14 miles from our home so for her the car will work under almost any circumstances. I work 31 miles away so even with the round trip commute I still have 40-50 miles of additional driving if needed.
-2
May 14th, 2010 (11:13 am)In post 56 you said you have 30200 miles on the car in 11 months. Do the math.
If you want to make a point, make it. But at least be consistent when fabricating your argument.
May 14th, 2010 (11:14 am)The folks at http://www.tdiclub.com have done such measurements. It convinced me to buy a set of Nokian I3′s (IIRC), and they were very good tires. I didn’t measure much of an increase in mileage, but I wasn’t running an adequately controlled test.
I don’t know if Nokian makes a tire that fits an Element, though — they might, but they don’t make a tire big enough for a compact pickup truck or SUV.
P.S. The wear indicators that Nokian uses are pretty darned cool. They embedded a stack 1mm numerals into the tire, so when you have 5mm left, there’s a legible “5″ visible in the tread. When you wear off another mm of tread, the 5 is gone and there’s a “4″.
+6
May 14th, 2010 (11:14 am)Thats how Dave sees it, but he is also barefoot and its raining
+2
May 14th, 2010 (11:15 am)“How may amps”
A typical watertight 480 Volt Receptacle and plug are rated for 100 amps. The cord is a little over 1 inch in diameter. So a 480 V rapid charge system could provide about 75 kw, which would to off a second generation (150 mile AER) Leaf “tank” in about 30 minutes at a rest stop or over lunch.
+4
May 14th, 2010 (11:16 am)The question is who is going to be first in market : Fisker, GM or …..
Suzuki
News: Suzuki Swift Plug-in Hybrid Gains Type Approval from Japanese Government; To Dealers in the Autumn for Testing
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/05/swift-20100514.html
The plug-in is powered by a 55 kW, 180 N·m AC synchronous motor and a 2.66 kWh Li-ion battery pack. The 0.66L engine is the K6A
It can travel about 15 km (9 miles) on battery power. When the battery runs low, it runs on electricity generated by means of the engine. Grid charge time for the battery is approximately 1.5 hours @ 100V and 1h at 200V. Fuel consumption during hybrid operation after depletion of the battery pack is 37.6 km/L on the JC08 cycle (88.4 mpg US, or 2.7 L/100km).
I remember 2010 prius had similar number in JC08 cycle. So may be this will translate to 50-52 mpg US in EPA cycle.
+4
May 14th, 2010 (11:19 am)Here I come to save the day!!!
+2
May 14th, 2010 (11:20 am)Yes, I sometimes plug in at work, but it’s usually not necessary. The MINI-E get 100-120/miles per charge. I am averaging 108/charge but have gone 122, 124, 126 & 128 on single charges without ever running out. How far you go is a product of how you drive and the outside temperature. I’m actually getting better range now than when it was new and I’m not sure why that is. During most of the winter though, I was averaging around 85 miles per charge and I still make the commute without additional charging. There are days that I do charge up midday and drive the car 200 miles in the same day, which is how I have such high mileage. Also I do drive the car 7 days a week. I use it for as much of my driving as possible because the fuel cost is so low.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (11:22 am)I’d also say this: if we experience any gas shock that raises the price of gas significantly or worse, restricts its availability, they won’t be able fill the demand for the Volt even if it’s priced fairly high.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (11:23 am)This type of vehicle (including the coming plug-in Prius) are in a completely separate category from both an EREV and a BEV. Depending on cost and amenities they should sell pretty well to those more concerned with mpg than mph.
EDIT (after a more careful reading):
Hey, that almost sounds like a nano-EREV (primarily designed to operate in “Charge Sustaining Mode” with a battery-only range based only on the size of pack you’d need for that mode). If this is so, it might be more comparable to the proposed Volt EREV20.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (11:23 am)I don’t understand what you are eluding to? I’d be happy to comment if you clarify.
May 14th, 2010 (11:27 am)Not so Dave, any current leakage due to water or snow is instantly detected, even at low voltages.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (11:27 am)On the other hand, if a BEV had a usable capacity of 125 kwh, to give it a range of about 500 miles, it could be recharged in less than 2 hours using a 480 V 3 phase 100 amp charger.
But the road to victory (ending foreign oil dependence) will be paved with partial victories like the first generation Volts and Leafs and hopefully Prius PHV and Ford products. 2012 is coming and I can’t help myself from getting manic over the possibilities.
May 14th, 2010 (11:27 am)Just a tiny clarification: It’s shipping to dealers in Japan this fall. No word on USA that I could see.
Thanks for the link.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 14th, 2010 (11:34 am)I’m sure GM would like to sell a lot of anything, as long as they are highly profitable. And, as we all know, the VOLT may or may not be very profitable in the 2011 model year. With all of the investment that they are making into battery production facilities, I believe they are working on or waiting for that ‘breakthrough’ that makes batteries CHEAP, POWERFUL, and COST EFFECTIVE.
Then we will see EREV’s and BEV’s in every GM Brand!!! All I ask is that they leave the LS 3, 7, and 9 engines alone on the Corvettes. That ain’t broke. Don’t fix it.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (11:35 am)Given that we are now within the 200 day window until the Volt’s release, so the price announcement can’t be too far off. Seems worth suggesting.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 14th, 2010 (11:46 am)=============================
I have to say it – I apologize in advance……….
I guess we all will just have to “stay tuned”!!!!
+2
May 14th, 2010 (11:48 am)Yup, that describes us pretty well.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (11:51 am)I agree. Ive been working out in the manufacturing plant the last 2 weeks and have plugged and unplugged several 480V 3PH 30A plugs. Its no sweat. I dont think this is the limitation. I believe Greg Ciesel at GM said the limit was the rate the battery could store power. I forget the specific KW rating. Supercapitors or new battery tech could solve this, but that’s the current situation.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (11:54 am)Groan True, but I’ve almost worn all the fuzz off my willer.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (11:57 am)Sometimes I *do* think that we’re the horse (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+6
May 14th, 2010 (11:57 am)Just got back from a Chevy dealer in northern Virginia. The sales guys were pretty psyched to get the Volt in this fall. They figure they will be getting their first shipment of 3 cars sometime after Halloween but before the end of the year. The first guy thought the MSRP would be in the mid-$40′s but the other guy, who had just gotten back from driving the Volt thought the MSRP would be “mid-$30′s, or a bit more.” Neither of them had a clue about the gas tank size, or about GM-Vot.com, or whether there would be continuing price reductions as the economies of scale kick in. The guy that had driven the Volt thought that GM would not be doing a second shift to build more Volts regardless of demand. He thinks that GM would rather lose an occasional sale than build more vehicles than the market demands. Not sure what to think of that.
They are just starting to take fully refundable deposits of $1000 to get in qeue for the limited amount of Volts that they will be getting and their techs are scheduling their classes on servicing the Volt right now. This dealer is pretty good sized, and they envision getting 5 or 6 Volts every month in 2011. Downside, they are getting calls from Senator Kerry and Rep Pelosi, they want some Volts. So the rest of us may have to wait until the bigwigs satisfy their contstituency that they are doing the right thing.
I asked the guy that drove the Volt if the finish quality was like the 2LT Cobalt or an LTZ Malibu and he looked at me like I was nuts and said the Volt is ‘like nothing out there’, that the finish and the feel were like a much more expensive vehicle. He was really proud of it. But he didn’t seem to think it was important to build more.
All in all, an interesting conversation.
-11
May 14th, 2010 (11:59 am)(click to show comment)
+8
May 14th, 2010 (11:59 am)Do you suffer from LEAF Range Anxiety?
Take 2 of these and call me in the morning.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (12:08 pm)I’ll assume that you are joking.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+3
May 14th, 2010 (12:09 pm)My thinking all along has been that GM has been conservative with their roll out numbers because they are just waiting for gas prices to spike again as the economy continues to recover. Once oil prices rise and people are paying $4-5 a gallon for gas GM will be able to quickly ramp up production and flood the market with the exact kind of car that the public will be clamoring for. Do I wish GM would just produce 10′s of thousands per year right from the get go, yes, but I think their plan makes sense from a business stand point. I do however have the same concerns that many do on here that GM will be beaten to the punch by Nissan. These two cars cannot come soon enough from a cost and energy independence standpoint.
+6
May 14th, 2010 (12:09 pm)That just makes me want to hurl my breakfast! Those two-faced liars will just take a few photo-ops for CNN and Fox then give the cars away to one of their grandchildren or something. They are never going to be seen driving a VOLT in the Hamptons… EVER! They should let the consumers who actually PAID for the bailouts get first deliveries of the cars.
(Oh. Did I just say all that out loud? My bad.)
+1
May 14th, 2010 (12:12 pm)You don’t like Don C. We get it!! There are at least 2 others I’d like to see get blocked ahead of him.
I can always tell when you log on even before you comment, because suddenly every comment Don has made in a thread gets a -1 next to it, regardless of content.
My advice: Get over it, or get another site to hang out at. You are a far more irritating poster.
May 14th, 2010 (12:17 pm)We can only hope this is true. But so far I haven’t heard of pressure being put on GM to produce more Volts by dealers. Most of what you hear is that the dealers don’t know much about the car, which means they don’t really care since it’s not as if there is a dearth of information about it.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (12:20 pm)#31
Goodyear “Assurance Fuel Max” 215-70×15. 2000 Chevrolet S-10, 4 cyl, 5 spd. I have only run through 1 tank of fuel so far. That included some horrible freeway congestion, which is not part of my normal routine. Also I had a nail in the tire episode, on the second day of the new tires, LOL. So one tire was substantially underinflated for who know what percentage of that tank of gas. So I am hoping for maybe 27 mpg under more normal circumstances.
I drive about 24K miles a year so, at $3/gal, every 1 mpg is worth about $100. Since the premium for these tires is about $150 over the cheapies we usually buy, it’s worth doing even for 1 mpg.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (12:20 pm)An excellent suggestion. +1
+2
May 14th, 2010 (12:20 pm)IMO, there is a great danger of the Volt (and GM generally) getting identified politically with only one of our two parties. A reversal for Voltec could come with the next election. If there are any notable conservatives reading this site (who believe in the Volt’s value) I would encourage them to order a Volt, speak out, and drive the car. Once experienced, I think you would find it hard not to drive it!
May 14th, 2010 (12:22 pm)Naw… just put the gen set on a little trailer or platform and bring it along behind. At 50 miles if you think you will not get back to a charging station just stop and fire the gen set up –( maybe a remote starter could be added using a smart phone) — ;+}
+1
May 14th, 2010 (12:23 pm)Are you worried about going over your lease mileage? It is a lease, isn’t it, for the Mini-E?
+1
May 14th, 2010 (12:24 pm)Herm, many have tried the rational route to no avail. Tag can you please offer counseling to Dave for his BEV and fast charging phobias. The Volt and Leaf will be out this year (200 Days till Volts appear) and we don’t want Dave to be debilitated by abject fear when the the cars and chargers are spotted in the wild.
LJGTVWOTR Safely without undue suffering from fear and phobias.
May 14th, 2010 (12:26 pm)#110
True that. +1
May 14th, 2010 (12:28 pm)========================================
Hey!!! That is MY line, buster!!!!!
May 14th, 2010 (12:34 pm)The issue with costs is that they depend on volume so it’s a chicken and egg deal. Take your example of battery facilities. Say GM spends $100M on this. If they make 100 cars then this cost center would add at least $1M of cost to each car. But if they manufactured a million cars this cost center would only add $100 to the price of each car. Basically you have a lot of fixed cost, so by increasing production unit costs go down.
This is BTW why I think Nissan can claim that they can profitably sell the Leaf for $32.5K while GM suggests that the Volt won’t be profitable at $40K. The variable costs of the two cars don’t seem that different. The Volt seems to have higher quality components and a much more sophisticated battery pack and a genset, but the Leaf has more cells. It’s just that Nissan has a much larger number of units over which is amortizes its fixed costs. If GM decided it was going to manufacture a million Volts over its life, GM might be profitable at a price somewhat close to that of the Leaf’s. That Q would be interesting to put to GM at some point.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (12:34 pm)#116
There’s an interesting short article in the current Automobile magazine concerning the prospects of the next generation, “C7″ Corvette. Supposedly, the new management has discovered that the Corvette has been consistently quite profitable, and has thus given the go ahead for full development of same. What a concept! Some had speculated that it had been put on hold. Good news, if true.
There is the usual speculation about the configuration, smaller, lighter, mid-engine, V6 power, ASF.
All of that and $1.50 will probably get you a cup of coffee, but the go ahead is big news, again if true.
May 14th, 2010 (12:38 pm)Look on the bright side …. it won’t be a Land Rover!
May 14th, 2010 (12:40 pm)#117
I totally agree. Sorry if I was too terse. I’m not criticizing you. I’m just lamenting the fact that GM is so slow to do something like this. We have been suggesting that they take deposits and/or start an official waiting list for 3 years, and then Nissan beats them to the punch. They could do worse than to just copy what Nissan has done.
May 14th, 2010 (12:40 pm)I don’t see a lot of new technology here. Just packaging the right features in the most economic configuration is my SWAG. This doesn’t scare me too much. But this…
is why I tap on my car a few times to dissipate static, before filling up.
May 14th, 2010 (12:40 pm)Sorry, but I’m already really backed up with so many *other* people on this site. I sure hope that they don’t release the Volt in large numbers until my driveway gets paved! (oops, that was out loud, wasn’t it?). The phobias are tough (the “I’m going to die in a ball of flames” is especially problematic), but the conspiracy theory sufferers are even tougher. Range anxiety??? HA! Piece of cake.
You’ll still be here for your Monday appointment, won’t you? (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (12:41 pm)#118
Yeah, right. +1
May 14th, 2010 (12:42 pm)Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Nissan say just a few days ago that the leaf would not be profitable for the first 3 years? I seen it somewhere.
May 14th, 2010 (12:45 pm)Guilty!
I dunno. Do you have any more of the good pills?
+1
May 14th, 2010 (12:46 pm)Dave G; thanks for the pics of that plug. +1
Ouch! Made me snort up my pop! Nearly stained myself!
Any Train analogy gets a +1 in my book! This technology has been around for a while — its not unproven.
That is cool! I have had good luck with my low roll resistance tires — did just fine in the snow this winter. The gas savings isn’t noticeable, but you are talking 60,000 miles…
May 14th, 2010 (12:48 pm)By next year at this time we’ll see how well the fast chargers work. Fast as in 30 minutes.
There are some serious problems with fast charging. Give Dave his due. Personally I don’t worry much about them because I don’t think really fast charging is realistic anytime soon. The main reason I don’t think it will happen is that I don’t think people will demand it. I have friends who have the CNG Civic and they never go to a CNG station, and I suspect this will be what happens with BEVs. People will figure out how to just charge them at home or maybe at the office. Certainly people won’t need fast chargers if they have an EREV, which is one of the beauties of its design.
May 14th, 2010 (12:51 pm)Like clockwork, couldn’t function without it
Range anxiety, unlike many, has a physical cause, that being driving a vehicle with a tiny, incredibly expensive propulsion battery. I’d guess that when batteries with 500 hundred miles of range are as light and cheap as a mass produced ICE, then nearly all range anxiety will go away. Along with a rapid rise in fast charge phobia
+6
May 14th, 2010 (12:51 pm)#124
This is the blogosphere. It doesn’t work that way. If you don’t like the comments, your option is to log off. -1, and I don’t give them out lightly.
May 14th, 2010 (12:53 pm)Mark, it is unlimited mileage. They want us to drive as much as possible.
-1
May 14th, 2010 (12:57 pm)I know they said it would be profitable but couldn’t find what I was looking for. Here’s another article which basically says what I was saying — in volume the Leaf is profitable:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704635204575242382820806878.html?mod=WSJ_auto_IndustryCollection
May 14th, 2010 (12:58 pm)Maybe we should define need. If I was living in Sub Saharan Africa I suspect I would need much less. With millions of drivers in NA some folks will find that as an alternative to gasoline, fast charging will meet their needs. Though I believe I would use charging at my home nearly all the time, I don’t make claims that what I feel my charging needs are will be universal or even prevalent.
May 14th, 2010 (1:02 pm)OT:
Space Shuttle Atlantis is about to launch on what is expected to be it’s final mission.
May 14th, 2010 (1:08 pm)-Please remove all valuables from your car while using quick charge stations-
or
We have 110v receptacles next to the restaurant-hotel
or
You could buy a car that charges while you’re driving.
Sign paid for by our insurance company.
May 14th, 2010 (1:11 pm)For you, I’ll dig out some samples (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 14th, 2010 (1:13 pm)6 minutes and counting!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (1:19 pm)Get your Volt now before gas prices go up. Ohh, my bad, get in line for a Volt now before gas prices go up.
The Leaf will only be marketed in limited areas that are getting a charging infrastructure boost. The leaf will have GPS, and charger locations on screen, and state of the art charge monitoring algorithms. You won’t sweat bullets when your charge is low in the Leaf, you will know exactly when you will be stranded.
May 14th, 2010 (1:33 pm)In looking up the cost of the battery pack I stumbled on to this discrepancy. In this article, which got a lot of play — including an article here by statik on May 8th — the Leaf is profitable and the battery pack costs $9000.
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/05/report-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-costs-only-6-000-9-000-or/
In this WSJ article from yesterday the pack costs less than $18000 (I know that $9000 is less than $18000 but that’s not exactly what they mean) and the Leaf will be profitable at high volumes.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704635204575242382820806878.html?mod=WSJ_auto_IndustryCollection
Interesting since I don’t believe that both can be right. I’m going with the WSJ article since the $18K number is consistent with the $11.5K number for the Volt’s pack.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (1:35 pm)It’s sort of having a wrist-altimeter with a bad parachute.
You’ll know exactly when you — (Splat!!!)
+1
May 14th, 2010 (1:38 pm)OT:
Absolutely phenomenal shuttle launch. One more launch left, and then we hitch a ride with the Russians. IMO, a very sad time for us as a nation (not because of the Russians, but because of our apparent shift away from the space program).
And now, back to the Volt’s launch, or lack thereof. Oops, a little emotional spillover there…
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (1:41 pm)I think battery technology is advancing faster than the computer storage (hard-drive/memory) technology. Remember the day you bought 1 GB of IBM micro drive for $300? And that was just four years ago. Now you can buy 16 GB of SD memory for only $50. Just keep that in minf for EV protesters!
We need to have 1 GB before we can have 2 GB and we need 2 GB before we can have 4 GB…and look at how cheap the computer memory now. I think same thing will go for the EV. I can’t wait to the day that the EV range is 300 miles/charge and the rapid chargers are every where. That day will come sooner than you think and all the range anxiety talkers shut the hell up!
My 2 cents
+1
May 14th, 2010 (1:43 pm)Long time no post… New job, running like a silly bugger!
I have long been saying this, I will NOT buy a pure EV with todays technology.
It is simply too limited and potentially unsafe were one to run out of ‘go’ at the wrong time.
Give me the Volt with a range extender thank you very much.
May 14th, 2010 (1:44 pm)When asked by a reporter what would happen if one rocket (of
of the Mars rover landing vehicle failed, a NASA scientist immediately replied that the landing vehicle would take the Rover directly to the crash site.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (1:44 pm)-Quick charge customers are responsible for any damage their batteries cause-
Insurance policies are available for some battery types, in the restaurant-hotel lobby
next to the 110v receptacles.
sign paid for by Acme Insurance
+2
May 14th, 2010 (1:45 pm)I’m glad today’s discussion revolves around plugging in and human acceptance of EVs. That said, when someone runs a survey such as the subject of today’s article, it’s kind of your basic no-brainer that corporations and governments seem to think deems tossing thousands of dollars at just to confirm.
When we read the Volt story it’s amazing how many parallels there are to Ford’s development of the Mustang. The Mustang 1 was a racy unrealistic fiberglass two door convertible concept that made the rounds(Volt Concept) – when it made a stir;struck a public nerve – it was then decided it needed complete revision to a coupe with 4 seats, and to save costs it would be built upon the Falcon chassis and suspension ( Cruze ). Like Volt, Mustang’s development happened in record time ( 18 months ). Ford trotted out the big reveal at the World’s Fair in New York and began selling the “1965″ models soon after, midway through 1964.
Here’s the difference: COMMITMENT. Ford committed to the new breed of car, a totally new segment and decided being a pioneer and building the car in numbers where average people could buy one, was the correct strategy. Ford sold 22,000 units the first day! As we all know, 500,000+ Mustangs were sold the first full year of 1965 and the rest is history.
GM has this history of non-innovation. The Corvette being nearly the sole exception, and it was totally a battle for it’s developers to ever see the light of day. We see GM scrambling to catch up with it’s competitors in nearly every car category you can mention. In some cases GM did make superior cars, the small block V-8 is a shining highlight, but look at mid-size sedans which GM never even came close to catching up – or the minivan, where GM struggled, strained, and eventually just plain gave up competing with it’s rivals. Really, in current history, GM can wave the Tahoe and Suburban in our faces, and call slamming a megaton behemoth body onto their two rail truck chassis and calling it “macaroni” as a shining success, all 7-15 ( 17mpg in hybrid trim) mpg, fossil fueled heaps of them.
GM, as today’s topic clearly proves, pure EVs are sacked with huge hurdles to become a realistic choice for a large majority who are not “early adopters”, and who don’t want to be inconvenienced as they drive up to the McDonald’s drive thru. This CLEARLY shows us all how advanced Voltec is! The Volt inconveniences no one. Once this word is out it’s sales should be strong. Once a 5 seat version is introduced ( MPV5 ) it’s sales should be robust, if not through the roof. Mix in an O.P.E.C. price hike here, a few more Big Oil profit boasts there, and maybe a smattering of BP oil spills – and I think the map for Volt-tech platforms is pretty much laid out in front of you.
GM – become the innovator, not the follower. Try looking at what the race looks like from the front, being chased by the wannabees, not being the wannabee. You’ve placed yourself in the catbird seat – the place Ford found themselves in at the dawn of the Mustang. Can you imaginehow the story would have played if Ford meted out 8,000 Mustangs the first 12 months?!!!
GM – Just go for it. Just do it. Just build the Volt.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
May 14th, 2010 (1:47 pm)Hey, LRGV, have you touched base with Dan Petit lately? He was asking about you. He wants to know if you’re going to make it to Austin this weekend for the autoshow. A few weeks ago you had mentioned wanting to go. I’m in Dallas today and plan to go down Sunday morning. I’m assuming 3 hours from the south side of Dallas.
Michael
May 14th, 2010 (1:48 pm)Be well, and Behave!
Jackson
Let’s Just Get Bunches Of Voltec Models On The Road!!****H2NS (H2 = NonSense)
May 14th, 2010 (1:48 pm)HEY, welcome back! Congrats on the employment, as well.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
May 14th, 2010 (1:57 pm)Ford did not face the hurdle of obtaining brand new technology items to build the Mustang; it was a pure styling exercise involving only a repackaging of technologies which already existed, were well understood, and were available in mass quantities.
Your comparison is blatantly unfair.
And that assertion is simply not true.
Just ask Dan!
+1
May 14th, 2010 (1:59 pm)The Volt will still have some of that, yearly oil changes and so on.. but the real problem will be the LEAF, you know Nissan dealers are not going to see a nickel of repairs and maintenance out of that car.. why would they be interested in selling it?$500 profit per car and all that capital tied up?. Perhaps Nissan will have to implement a different sales model for the LEAFs, perhaps internet ordering with direct sales
+1
May 14th, 2010 (2:04 pm)Thanks Tag!
It has been a huge learning wall ‘haven’t gotten to the curvy part yet!’
I need to go read the articles for the last few weeks to catch up!
Be well and have a GREAT weekend!
May 14th, 2010 (2:05 pm)http://gas2.org/page/3/ — I believe I read it at EV World yesterday also.
May 14th, 2010 (2:06 pm)As you said, “Guilty”. I guess I’m a bit frustrated about us missing yet another opportunity to make a statement to GM – or that we need to make the statement at all.
I think that I’ll replay the shuttle launch and take a nap.
BBL,
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
/Michael watch out for the twisters out there!
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (2:09 pm)Years of discussing this and people still don’t get it.
There are probably only a million people that would buy a BEV-100 right now. But before they can sell half that number, there will be BEV-200′s out there for the same cost, and gas will be a minimum of $4 gallon and probably a lot more, even if the world economy doesn’t pick up (only reason it is under $3 a gallon now).
And in 5 years when BEV-200s are affordable and a quick charge at the interstate rest area can be done in less time then it takes to go to the bathroom and eat your lunch.
Point is EREV and BEVs will work together.
http://www.istockanalyst.com/images/articles/OIL_Sweetnam_Graph_580x2010514723.jpg
May 14th, 2010 (2:13 pm)I think Nissan and GM both should offer internet ordering, they could pay your airfare to Michigan or Tennessee and let you drive the car home.
-May the best car win-
May 14th, 2010 (2:16 pm)Yup — much better to build a nice travel plaza with restaurants, shops, a dog walk, and a playground for the kids that’s actually designed for someone to sit down and stay for a while. This could make road-tripping a lot more fun, especially if each of these little destinations had a little bit of local flavor. But, except for Tamarack in southerin West Virginia, this doesn’t actually get you anything if the goal is to get in and out in 7 minutes or less. And Tamarack could do a lot to make the grounds more friendly.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (2:22 pm)We’ll see how the Leaf does with its styling. I think that to some people, it’s important that their environmentally friendly vehicle would look weird and distinctive.
May 14th, 2010 (2:30 pm)Good Call DonC that might be where I got it from. They are saying they will be profitable in 2013. So I take that as the Leaf will not be profitable in the first 3 years. (The Volt hopefully will make a profit by then too)
From your link:
“FRANKLIN, Tenn.—Nissan Motor Co. may initially lose money on its Leaf electric car before generating profits after it opens a U.S. plant in 2013 to produce the vehicle in volume, according to a senior U.S. executive at the company.”
When you said DonC: “This is BTW why I think Nissan can claim that they can profitably sell the Leaf ”
MY Bad, I did not know you were talking about in 3 years. I bet GM hopes to make a profit on the Volt in 3 years also.
May 14th, 2010 (2:34 pm)Exactly my belief also, fast charge stations (100-400kw) will not be commercially feasible, no one will pay to fast charge their car when they can essentially do it for free at home or starbucks.. the Feds will have to build the few stations needed on the highways.
May 14th, 2010 (2:34 pm)With GM announcing ‘Mountain Mode’ VOLT has taken a distinct step towards overcoming buyer ICE-EV transition. As VOLT will be selling for well over $30k and even though GM will outsell production Leadership can do more. For example, now with Mountain Mode VOLT should have zero problem making a trip from SF to Reno. (Or LA to LV) But what happens if VOLT is caught up in bad weather. Snow, traffic, accidents. Anything which delays travel. In Mountain Mode the ER ICE will operate fine. But with a 6 galoon tank, the driver’s at risk.VOLT must be capable of being safe meaning warm and comfortable. Having a 12 galoon tank solves the problem. Indeed, that’ll solve a lot of problems. One being basic combo range. Make VOLT special. Give it a larger tank. That’ll take it up almost (if not to) 500 mile range. Take VOLT’s interior trim upscale. Give it that wow factor. With a ten year battery guarantee GM assures itself of an exclusive EV ER market for three-four years. That’ll cut out buyer carping about sticker shock. And the best news — cost but a few bucks more.
May 14th, 2010 (2:35 pm)How ’bout vending machines?
May 14th, 2010 (2:36 pm)Plugging in where you are going to be a while may sound good on paper (or electrons), but you’re going to be constrained on where you can park your car and go about your business while it charges. You’d might as well take public transit with its rigid schedules (which parallels with charging times) and routes (which parallels with charging station locations). And we all know how popular public transit across the whole nation. And there are FAR less charging points than bus stops.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (2:48 pm)Be kind of tough to drive the LEAF home since it’s 800 miles. That’d be a week of travel with 7 overnight stays at hotels that happen to let you charge your car. Well, maybe not that much (two hours driving, 12 hours lay-off, rinse and repeat.) would be half that.
Driving the Volt is doable (1300 miles), but, I’d rather get it at my dealer (3 miles).
+1
May 14th, 2010 (3:00 pm)If you fly low, you might make it in 3 hours. But with traffic, accidents, weather and construction zones, it’ll probably be more like 4.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (3:08 pm)The problem with the LEAF is that there is no ICE under that hood.. it looks empty, different and weird. The solution is to put a storage compartment there, like the original VW Bug had. If it ends looking anything like a Versa it wont be too bad.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (3:11 pm)===========================
Tag:
According to the nasa.gov site, there are two more shuttle launches left – Sept 16th and Nov 1st.
Maybe we should all go down to the Cape and watch the Nov launch!!!
I would rather see that than Nancy Pelosi getting a Volt before us………………….
May 14th, 2010 (3:16 pm)===========================
Isn’t it still illegal in most states for the auto manufacturer to sell directly to the end user?
I also think that is why GM is not taking customer deposits for the Volt.
What they should do is allow us to go to our local Chevy dealer and pay the deposit there. They would go to their ordering system and GM would know in minutes how many they need to build!
Why is it that we can figure all this out, but GM seems to have such a problem with it????
+1
May 14th, 2010 (3:18 pm)============================
Are we really going to start talking about the size of the gas tank again????
And how many quarts are in a galoon?????? Sorry – I had to do it…..
+1
May 14th, 2010 (3:22 pm)Many people saw it coming.. when it became know that the shuttle had reached the end of its life Nasa decided to build TWO new gold plated spaceships.. now neither of them will get finished, after spending billions. NASA should have used as much existing hardware/facilities and built around that. Retired NASA people and other interested parties proposed the Direct architecture, a single multipurpose vehicle that would carry large payloads or a very large capsule into orbit, a very heavy duty capsule.. reusing existing designs of launch pads, tanks, solid booster and engines.. with very little new design work needed and very cheap. NASA fought it hard using typical bureaucratic tactics.
You can read all about it here:
http://www.directlauncher.com/
May 14th, 2010 (3:24 pm)==============================
I am sure that is completely true for some people.
But IMHO, for the “average” person, a vehicle has to look right on the outside, be comfortable on the inside, and be reliable transportation.
I can sell her on the idea of a BEV, but she has to like what she is driving, or it is no sale. And since I have to live with this woman, that is VERY important to me………….. You know the old saying – A Happy Wife Is A Happy Life!
+2
May 14th, 2010 (3:25 pm)I just thought of something, maybe GM is afraid if they took deposits, they would end up with firm orders for tens of thousands of Volts, and then have a harder time only building 8000 the first year.
May 14th, 2010 (3:30 pm)With the technology as it is right now, it is probably better to manufacture very small EV cars, such as Smart EV, rather than larger ones. Those are city cars that are not used for out of the city travel. At the same time, as sale of Smart suggests, there is large number of customers who want to have a second small car just to go to work. From this perspective Nissan might want to reconsider its strategy and sell smaller cars than Leaf with smaller batteries for about $20,000 – entirely possible considering their price advantage in battery production. Or maybe that is exactly what Nissan is planing to do with its new partnership with Daimler???
-1
May 14th, 2010 (3:34 pm)Wouldn’t you consider Ares a system that uses existing hardware? And keeps most everything needed for the heavy lifter in place?
-1
May 14th, 2010 (3:39 pm)#190 Jim I. Are we really going to start talking about the size of the gas tank again????
As long as we talk about battery size – yep.
And how many quarts are in a galoon?????? Hey the right (or left) place for metrology questions.
Please see the galoon calculator at http://www.convertunits.com/info/galoon
+1
May 14th, 2010 (3:42 pm)The Volt’s pack costs around $8000. The Leaf’s pack costs around $14,000.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (3:43 pm)GM wants to control the allocation of new Volts..a preorder system would ruin that.. after all they expect to easily sell all the stock. Expect lots of Volts in DC, Hollywood and other influential cities.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (3:45 pm)I agree with James.
The 19641/2 Mustang was a big risk — this was 1964 — people liked big cars… umm, like today. Ford took a big risk – and got a big payoff.
GM is treating the VOLT as a science experiment, not a new model roll out. Planned: 8000 cars/ 1st year. Aaaarrrggh
Um, what about: “NEW FORD FIESTA SALES TOP 500,000 UNITS IN FIRST YEAR”????
Where is the hype? The Volt Dancers? Either GM knows something — i.e. the Gen II Volt is going to be much better than this one, or they are sure its a specialty car that won’t sell.
You don’t make 4000 of a model for an introduction. You don’t only offer it in limited areas. You don’t do that “Volt Dancers” thing to ANY product you want people to buy.
As for new technology… where? Trains have been doing it for a while now. EV1 was when? 14 years ago? 1996-1999.
If they are so unsure of the VOLT, why don’t they wait a year and get it right before teasing us and pissing us off.
My point: Ford had the guts to BELIEVE. I HATE the way GM is rolling out this car. (could you guess from the above?)
must go to my happy place for a while — thanks for the opportunity to vent!
+1
May 14th, 2010 (3:50 pm)Not really, the solid boosters were not designed for that task.. so the Ares needed (and still needs, after spending billions) many extensive modifications to be able to launch a capsule.. such as an extra segment.. it also has put extreme constraints on the size and weight of the capsule and there are doubts that it will work properly. The launch pads would have to be modified also at great expense. Also why build two launchers when a simpler one will do the job, there is not enough cargo volume to space to justify two rarely used launchers.
May 14th, 2010 (3:53 pm)If you take notice, I’m always reacting to someone else saying we need hundreds of miles of range charged in 10 minutes. For example, Rashiid #17 writes:
“In order for EVs to completely replace ICE vehicles, I strongly believe charging needs to be only a few minutes and the range extended to a few hundred miles at minimum. “
May 14th, 2010 (3:55 pm)#162
I thought that we were going to ride with Elon Musk, LOL.
May 14th, 2010 (3:57 pm)#164
Best news I’ve heard today! +1
May 14th, 2010 (3:59 pm)I’m with Don here.. the LEAF pack cost $18k and the Volt’s $11.5k.. back when Lyle did the article I warned everyone that it was based on a SINGLE month old article that claimed the LEAF pack was $9000.
In any case two facts stand out.. Ghosn has promised they will make a profit at that price, and Thundersky batteries are on sale today for $350/kwh, as many as you want.
May 14th, 2010 (4:01 pm)Actually I didn’t mean 3 years. I meant now. You had it right. If you look at #160 there are two articles. The one I was thinking of was featured on this site, and it said that the pack would cost $9000 (which I didn’t find that believable) and the Leaf would be more or less profitable from day one. When looking for that article I found the WSJ article from yesterday which says the pack will cost $18000 and the Leaf will be profitable at high volumes. I find this more credible, but it wasn’t the article I was thinking of. Very interesting that the numbers from Nissan are so divergent.
So there you have it. You get to pick the price of the pack and when the Leaf will be profitable! But my point was that whether a vehicle is profitable depends greatly on the number of units over which you amortize your fixed costs. Pick a big production number and unit costs come down quickly. Alternatively, if you pick low production numbers, which is what GM seems to be doing, then the break-even sales point goes up. That’s why I said it was a chicken and egg issue. More production lower costs or higher costs less production. Stated differently, ultimately production numbers are a faith based issue.
May 14th, 2010 (4:14 pm)Granted the cells may cost $8k but the pack comprises more than the cells. We had some pretty specific numbers from the presentation given in December of 2008 and if I remember right the pack cost came out to $11.2 or $11.4, something in that range.
May 14th, 2010 (4:21 pm)OT.
But relevant,
“A group of researchers from two universities tested their hacking skills on two cars and found that they could remotely lock the brakes, the engine, and windows on a car; turn on the radio, heat, and windshield wipers; honk the horn; and change the speedometer display. ”
http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20005047-245.html
+3
May 14th, 2010 (4:28 pm)I’ll bet if an EV-1 were around, the range would not be near as good as the new Nisaan Leaf…why don’t we celebrate that we will finally have, a mass marketed EV very soon….
May 14th, 2010 (4:34 pm)Hi LRGProVolt,
Got a convention ticket for you, and I had talked to Micheal on the phone this morning.
Call me at my published phone number in Austin, and I’ll call you back with my cell phone number if you are going to make it to Austin.
Micheal,
The drive to Austin from Dallas on Sunday morning is really very nice with no traffic hardly at all Sunday morning. You’ll enjoy it a lot.
The distance to allow is 3 hours and 30 minutes to North Austin. Frequent radar on Sunday, so, the speed limit set on the cruise control is a good idea.
For DonC,
Well, I know that you are not at all overreacting regarding fast charging.
I’d bet utility companies will never allow that, nor would insurance companies.
I know it to be a technically-uninformed opinion to say you are overreacting, as most
technologies that have been out here now are technically-internally so very far beyond the wildest imaginings (and comprehensions)
of just about all non-technical consumers in how most of them work and what they actually do (no surprise there). Do you realize that almost no-one knows exactly what a 12 volt battery in a vehicle
actually *does* ***most of the time?*** Just a plain old 12 volt battery.
Familiarity breeds contempt, and, in some cases, arrogance and conceit when it comes to about 15 percent of the closed minded people who believe that replacing parts in a shop is the same depth of understanding as how they work, and certainly, how interactively they fail, and the diagnostics comprehension of it all. (Hence, unfortunately, you pay for the wrong part/service priority). Those with arrogance and conceit are the ones who need be very careful, for they are the very ones who cause the most extreme of damages.
This also applies to the influence of the non-technical whom suggest that something is really safe (that you, DonC, are over reacting) when it most certainly in all conditions and situations, it is
******
*not. *
******
So, yes, it might be easy to connect and disconnect that big plug, but, that thing is just not going to happen for fast charging. People will laugh at it if any OEM actually demonstrates that during a test drive, and get that “Are you crazy???” look from customers.
While forums are a wonderful democratic channel for expression, there must be some care in having a basic guard against any over-influenced “group think” which, over time, can cause a set of ideas to be made mainstream that are damaging or even deadly. If enough people are wrongfully influenced to say that something is proven to be ok in all common situations, that doesn’t mean it is going to in fact be so in common situations.
Anyway, LRGProVolt, there is a ticket with your name on it for Saturday afternoon or Sunday.
May 14th, 2010 (4:35 pm)3 Phase 400A 600V AC. This is an example of the size of connection you’d need to charge a 100 mile plus EREV in a matter of a few minutes.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (4:38 pm)I agree. When Leaf sales reach 100,000 this will be a very special day. The first 8000 Volt will sell out quickly. Hope the price doesn’t increase too much on gen 2. The Leaf is special. But the Volt is very special.
=D-Volt
+1
May 14th, 2010 (4:39 pm)No, let me be more specific: What is your PERSONAL experience with that power level?
I’ve asked that and you’ve not answered. I also made this reply to you that you never responded to:
+1
May 14th, 2010 (4:40 pm)Great read and…yes…interesting. Would love to hear why he believes they have little interest in volume. I know what we have seen hear and in the media but wonder if something else has given him that impression. Hopefully this, if true, just means that they will keep ramp up well behind demand but STILL ramp up nonetheless.
May 14th, 2010 (4:46 pm)500,000 divided by 480 and divided again by square root 3 equals 601.4
601.4 << 1000
+2
May 14th, 2010 (4:59 pm)I was hoping for the feature where the car would say:
“Turn around now and go home if you don’t want to push your car the last block.”
If ignored, they are followed by
“Turn around now if you only want to push the car one block”
“Turn around now if you only want to push the car two blocks”
+3
May 14th, 2010 (5:03 pm)Mathew B at 212.
We both have exactly the same dilemma when it comes to technical experience.
You see, no matter how much very well experienced technical people wish to share their
wisdom, there are at least a thousand more non-technical in the general public that can
not ever (certainly not their fault) devote the same amount of comprehension to what we would like to share with them all.
This sort of a problem occurred in the 1950′s, when Ford Motor Company advertised that Chrysler’s car frame was made with wood, which was true. The Chrysler Airflow, a wonderfully aerodynamic auto that was so superior in it’s frame strength, because ***inside*** of the standard tubular frame, Chrysler used wood to greatly enhance the strength of its frames, far better than that of Ford’s.
But Ford defacto ***was*** correct that Chrysler used wood, but in a total fallacy of strength misrepresented. Dejure’, means that further careful consideration can mean the **just** opposite of defacto.
Chrysler reacted by driving an Airflow off of a cliff (they should have also driven a Ford off the same cliff). The Airflow remained in tact as far as the frame was concerned, but, the technically unsophisticated public then worried that they might fall off a cliff in a Chrysler Airflow. So, its sales for the Chrysler Airflow plummeted wrongfully.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (5:25 pm)On -Fast- Recharge.
Yesterday, I pulled into a gas station, one of 7 along my M-F route. I grabbed ~450 miles of Range in 4 minutes total time (In, Pay, Fuel, Drive Off). 110 miles/1 minute
Nissan’s “Fast Charge” Option will give me ~75 miles in 33 minutes minimum… provided the charging station is along my route. Thats unlikely for most people, so it would be more like 2 miles/ 1 minute.
Thats a significant disparity. In an emergency… I am just not going to be comfortable with a BEVs 0.25 mile/1 minute –> 2 mile/ 1 minute extension handicap. It might only happen once a year or less… but you know? That why I have a car instead of using public transportation or a bike…
May 14th, 2010 (6:15 pm)#189
Then how does Nissan do it?
May 14th, 2010 (6:17 pm)#190
Really. +1 to get you back even.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (6:19 pm)We are all worked up at the mixed signals we get from GM, but in fact no one here knows for sure exactly what will happen.
Yes we have been told in no uncertain terms that the Volt ramp up will be much slower than we want. BUT GM is not taking the Ford route of letting suppliers like Magna do the research and just buying off the shelf parts. You can buy an Equinox from Amp Motorworks today. I believe they make a good product, but they did it with a few engineers in two years, compare that with the effort gone into the Volt. GM is spending about $1B on the Volt with a new factory set up to make 2-mode and Volt motors and controllers, a battery pack assembly factory and LG Chem is building a new factory just to supply GM. If this was a passing fancy, wouldn’t they just do what Ford, Chrysler and Amp are doing? My point is that on one side they are talking about minimal numbers and on the other building the foundation to make millions. I say actions speak louder than words.
May 14th, 2010 (6:32 pm)I think people will have to adjust to a new reality. Standard of living is going down, gas prices are going up, long distance commutes are taking an increasingly large chunk of the pay check. People are going to start looking for work closer to home. This will be a good thing as this will not mean that employers get lower quality workers, just happier workers less frustrated by long commutes with more free time on their hands.
May 14th, 2010 (6:32 pm)#220
Well I sure hope so. +1 for optimism.
May 14th, 2010 (6:54 pm)Sir, I got that response from several dealerships. I suggest that you not stop with one dealership and either go back persistently, and/or try other dealerships. I eventually found one that took my deposit and with a promise that it would not be over MSRP. I am still getting emails though from other dealers that are clueless.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (6:55 pm)Boy do we drive a lot around here.
In France, Toyota says the average daily commute is only 15 miles (plugin Prius anyone?).
The Japanese only drive about 5,000 miles a year.
In China the Volt electric range is good for almost 3 days!!!
The EV is going to help sell the Volt. The Leaf is a great second car, maybe even a good primary car around the retirement village. Seeing the Leaf being towed around is only going to prove todays study.
As far as volume goes, the Volt is lucky to even be on the road. After the EV-1 GM must be nuts to make another one ever MORE expensive. (please don’t use silly ICE comparisons, even the Fiesta has been in the B car segment since 1976). The Volt as a success will scare the hell out of other manufacturers.
So buy a Volt when you can, take the neighbors out for a drive, wave to Prius owners pumping gas.
Demand more.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (6:57 pm)Emergencies are handled with preparedness.. keep that BEV always fully charged, plug it in at every opportunity.
Steel, how would you feel about that disparity if gas is $4.50 a gallon?.. $6?.. will your opinion change at some particular price point?.. Suppose you can get a BEV with 200 miles of range at a reasonable price?..suppose you are only entitled to buy fuel on even days?.. perhaps your allowance card will only allow this on Wednesdays?. Will you always feel this way or do you think that could change?
+5
May 14th, 2010 (7:01 pm)REALLY OT: Jessica Watson is due to cross the finish line in the next few hours. She is near the end of her around the world solo unassisted voyage. She will turn 17 years old in a few days.
I on the other hand at the young age of 62 will do my third trail marathon tomorrow in the beautiful Mark Twain National Forrest. I will be remembering my Dad who walked a mail route for over 20 years (until he had to use a Jeep). I lost him a few weeks ago at the tender age of 93.
May 14th, 2010 (7:13 pm)What sort of moron would ask folks who have never driven an EV what they think of the experience? Range anxiety is not a big issue with EV owners. It may be with non EV owners.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (7:26 pm)Steel @ 217
I grabbed 450 miles in 4 minutes.
Picture me driving a 500 mile AER BEV. I do not stop, and drive directly home, no wasting of 4 minutes and Lord knows how many dollars. I pull into my garage and simply walk into my house, spending zero time refueling. In the morning, my car indicates a Range of 500 miles one way or a 250 mile radius for return to docking port. And I have spent perhaps $10 to $20 dollars rather than say $45 dollars!
Of course it would take about 12 hours at home to fill er up, but since the docking port could top off each night, the charging time would be much less.
Anyone who cannot see the future is electric needs glasses.
+2
May 14th, 2010 (7:35 pm)
May 14th, 2010 (7:39 pm)Yes, you’ve been a bit anal about punctuality…(g). And, Yes, the nice part about practicing shrinkology is that one never runs out of clients.
BTW, I’m still one vote short of a “greenie” on #54. That’s pretty pathetic! (LOL)
(Whine) I thought that we wanted to send GM a message!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
May 14th, 2010 (7:51 pm)Done +1. What was it about, anyway? LOL
May 14th, 2010 (7:52 pm)Let’s make a day of it and all pick up our Volt’s while we’re there! Oh, wait, they won’t be released in Fla during the initial launch… SIGH.
The *launch* would be enough to celebrate though. Given the way the weather is up here in Nov. maybe we could get together down there even without the launch (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 14th, 2010 (7:53 pm)Storm said:
What sort of moron would ask folks who have never driven an EV what they think of the experience? Range anxiety is not a big issue with EV owners. It may be with non EV owners.
Unfortunately, most future sales of EVs will be to non EV owners. These people will never experience range anxiety because they will never buy a car they can only drive for two hours at highway speed and then have to wait 12 hours to drive two more. Even with quick charging stations everywhere, stopping every two hours for 10 or 15 minutes is something most people would not want to do, and certainly would not pay 20 some thousand dollars to do. But an EREV? Bingo!
May 14th, 2010 (7:55 pm)Thanks DonC. Don’t worry about the content, you wouldn’t believe it anyway (lol).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 14th, 2010 (7:59 pm)Holy Crow! People around here don’t want to stop FOR GAS every 4 hours!!! (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (8:04 pm)Uh the Volt And the Leaf won’t be the only electric cars on the road if you don’t believe me there will be an electric Smart car coming to America to select markets later this year here is a link if you want to see it and you will see some info on this website about this electric car. Lets get the Volt Wheels on the road! http://www.smartusa.com/smart-fortwo-electric-drive.aspx
-1
May 14th, 2010 (8:07 pm)If you take your own advice, knowing what will happen isn’t as uncertain as you think. Waiting for the automaker to take the next move after rollout begins is certain doom.
Studying history reveals that success up to the consumer, not the automaker. You must transform from a reactive enthusiast to a proactive supporter.
Will you be purchasing a Volt, routinely posting your experiences with it, then push GM for modifications that will contribute to market growth?
May 14th, 2010 (8:09 pm)Foor, of course.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (8:17 pm)John1701a said:
Will you be purchasing a Volt, routinely posting your experiences with it, then push GM for modifications that will contribute to market growth?
Please don’t say that, they’ll spend another 6 months testing it, to find those problems before we do.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (8:37 pm)110% right you are Jackson!!
Sorry I had missed your post from earlier, (lots of things to get done for the Volt event tomorrow and on Sunday. Also, first two days off in several weeks.)
The Mustang was a great little car, but, there was absolutely no real technological challenge to making it. It was all about style that happened to hit it big.
Volt is all about an entirely new set of technologies. Ford just had a really great break with their designers. Volt is entirely intellectually-driven, which really commands my respect.
The Ford E-Ranger really impressed me, so it’s not like Ford can’t do some really great things with technologies, it’s just that it is not the right time for Ford to do anything economically.
Subcontracting to Magna to make BEV’s carries no financial risk at all. No deep commitment at all, and no deep passion for clearing out the old and going for the new techs it’s clear.
Given the critical need for EREV’s, I think something ought to be done for Ford somehow so they can participate in the changeover. There are just too many Ford buffs that would only buy an EREV from Ford.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (8:41 pm)Were Lithium Ion batteries available in the 1960s? Did trains use them? Did Ford have to import critical components from Asia? Had no one seen a small automobile before? Had no one heard of a small automobile with an internal combustion engine before?
You guys are both nuts.
May 14th, 2010 (8:44 pm)Dan Petit said
Given the critical need for EREV’s, I think something ought to be done for Ford somehow so they can participate in the changeover. There are just too many Ford buffs that would only buy an EREV from Ford.
From past experience, I don’t think I would worry about no response by Ford to a successful Volt. Sometimes Ford wins, sometimes Chevy wins, but if you go back 75 years or so it’s probably even.
May 14th, 2010 (8:54 pm)I like it! Think it would look good next to a Volt. Or for that matter an electric Fiat 500 would look good too…
May 14th, 2010 (8:55 pm)I would bet that right about now, Ford Motor is not feeling anywhere close to being even with GM by a long shot.
I think EREV demand is just way too underestimated, but both companies want to proceed with wise caution. I don’t think Ford is doing the “wait and see” thing, because they already know it’s the way to go. They just don’t have the financial opportunity.
May 14th, 2010 (9:01 pm)Hello? Did you actually just fall off the bus? Are there any EVs out there to plug into charging points yet? I think the assumption is that once EVs begin to appear, more and more destinations will install opportunity charging points. This is what all of those “EV ready” infrastructure seminars and programs are about. No, you won’t find all that many charging points unless or until there are significant numbers of EVs.
Let’s look forward about a decade and ask the same question (an assumption I would have expected most regular posters here to make). I’ll be very surprised if there are not more charging points than bus stops by this time. Granted, they may not all be as close to the entrance of whatever establishment as most of us would prefer, but still …
May 14th, 2010 (9:08 pm)Well, speak of the devil.
May 14th, 2010 (9:17 pm)Old news, but news none the less…
http://magazine.windingroad.com/issue/57/
The Volt in NYC
May 14th, 2010 (9:30 pm)Micheal,
I hope you don’t mind, but I got you both a wedding gift.
(Hint: It’s a village, sort of.)
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:31 pm)Actually here in Southern California I run into them all over the place, usually abandoned, out of service, forlorn and forgotten, step children of an ICE centered culture…tears. Not crying much longer though, 200 more days to go
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:35 pm)Somewhat OT:
May 14th, 2010 (9:45 pm)‘Night all.
+1
May 14th, 2010 (9:55 pm)To decrease development costs, the Mustang used chassis, suspension, and drivetrain components derived from the Ford Falcon and Fairlane. It used a unitized platform-type frame from the 1964 Falcon, and welded box-section side rails, including welded crossmembers. To decrease development costs, the Mustang used chassis, suspension, and drivetrain components derived from the Ford Falcon and Fairlane. It used a unitized platform-type frame from the 1964 Falcon, and welded box-section side rails, including welded crossmembers.
Although hardtop Mustangs accounted for the highest sales, durability problems with the new frame led to the engineering of a convertible first, which ensured adequate stiffness. Although hardtop Mustangs accounted for the highest sales, durability problems with the new frame led to the engineering of a convertible first, which ensured adequate stiffness.
Overall length of the Mustang and Falcon was identical, although the Mustang’s wheelbase was slightly shorter. With an overall width of 68.2 inches (1,732 mm), it was 2.4 inches (61 mm) narrower, yet the wheel track was nearly identical. Shipping weight, approximately 2,570 pounds (1,170 kg) with the straight six-cylinder engine, was also similar to the Falcon. A fully-equipped V8 model weighed approximately 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg).
Although most of the mechanical parts were from the Falcon, the Mustang’s body was completely different; sporting a shorter wheelbase, wider track, lower seating position, and overall height. An industry first, the “torque box” was an innovative structural system that greatly stiffened the Mustang’s construction and helped contribute to better handling. -Wikipedia
Considering the Volt is projected to be near the weight class of the original V8 Mustang, adding computers that would have then filled a stadium, safety and communications equipment that were unimagined, entertainment that was inconceivable, comfort, durability and emissions levels that were impossible to an EREV propulsion system is a pretty good step forward.
-2
May 14th, 2010 (10:00 pm)GM’s one-size-fits all approach has always been a big concern. It’s 40 miles or nothing. Changing cell count changes the overall voltage. You cannot just plug in another module or add multiples. You can with the plug-in Prius though, since each runs totally independent of the others. It’s not just one big battery-pack supplying power all at once like Volt.
Not meeting basic design requirements for market growth is a big purchase deterrent. Another is not being able to easily reduce capacity to reduce price. Too much is being gambled on a design that doesn’t support multiple configurations.
Offering a plug-in model as just a high-end package on a hybrid that is already part of the mainstream makes for a very strong business case, reducing risk significantly and using a platform which could draw a lot of consumer interest very quickly. It also lowers price by taking advantage of high-volume production. That’s great for Prius configurations. What about Volt? Being only available with a plug in itself is limiting, not getting a choice of capacity limits it even more.
Think about the MPV5 concept with its larger cargo area and seating for a fifth person. It would use the same powertrain as Volt, but the increased vehicle mass reduces EV driving range to 32 miles. Too bad just plugging in another battery module isn’t supported.
May 14th, 2010 (10:09 pm)California. Grrrr!!! I submit that it shouldn’t count. I think you will find that your SoCal observations do not match the rest of the country. IMO, the true dawn of the next EV age will be defined by what actually hits the streets in places other than California.
May 14th, 2010 (10:12 pm)Right…LOL
+1
May 14th, 2010 (10:19 pm)You’re buying a LEAF in 2013 !!
Nissan has announced that they’ll have a 200 mile range battery in the 2013 LEAF, unless you’re one of the lucky 9,000 who can get a VOLT by then…
Plus, an iphone app coming out by years end will remind you to plug in your LEAF if you forget.
GO EV !!!!
+2
May 14th, 2010 (10:22 pm)Too bad you can’t find a better way to spend your Friday night.
-2
May 14th, 2010 (10:27 pm)Too little, too slowly.
+3
May 14th, 2010 (10:27 pm)YET.
May 14th, 2010 (10:29 pm)Too bad.
May 14th, 2010 (10:29 pm)Grrrr!!! ????
I agree with you completely. now lets be adults about this shall we. ~~~~~giggle~~~~~
+2
May 14th, 2010 (10:35 pm)I think (and hope) that the Volt and the LEAF will both find an audience. Who *knows* what will have been fielded by then by GM. Gen II? III?
For NOW, let’s get Volt #1′s wheels on the road!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (10:35 pm)rassa frackin’ mumble mumble left coasters, grumble.
May 14th, 2010 (10:39 pm)I dunno, you’re setting the bar pretty high there (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (10:46 pm)Hey, I resemble that remark!
I can still reach the bar, and I will just as soon as I can get up off the floor.
Dad-gum Nurse is late with my meds again …
/night all …
May 14th, 2010 (10:49 pm)Goodnight Mr. President.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 14th, 2010 (10:52 pm)Have a great weekend!!!
+1
May 14th, 2010 (11:08 pm)I agree with GM’s approach. I wish them much success.
The study money should have been put towards making the Leaf at least attractive. It’s just plain ugly.
May 14th, 2010 (11:20 pm)But GM has demonstrated that they can build several different models on the same line back-to-back.
With the scenario demonstrated on Volt-day-one, we see that the production line can keep running no matter which model sells that month. They can change the mix on the fly. Unless there are supply constraints like Statik is saying, they can go from 50 per day to 500 per day without breaking a sweat.
I actually like the fact that GM will build a limited run the first year (that is 8 TIMES what Tesla has built so far!). These cars will be collector items from day one.
May 14th, 2010 (11:26 pm)Getting to be late (or early).
Night all,
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***************NPNS.
May 14th, 2010 (11:33 pm)Only the lower left coasters qualify. Upper left coasters are left flapping in the breeze with the rest of flyover country.
May 14th, 2010 (11:35 pm)=========================
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
Not bad, Tag…..
+2
May 14th, 2010 (11:36 pm)But the price is set in advance of all production based on estimated production numbers. The price is turn will establish the number of actual sales. So the estimated production turns out to be a self-fulfilling prophesy for the actual numbers.
At Nissan the drive for EV success is coming right from the top. Ghosn understands Nissan is the fifth car company and the Koreans and Chinese are coming. He understands that Nissan needs to dominate a niche — preferably a good sized one — or it will be in big trouble. GM thinks of itself as the number one or number two car company in the world. So its goal is to just keep doing what it has been doing, only to do it a little better. Stated another way, I can’t figure out what group at GM has an interest in the success of EREV but it’s easy to see which groups have have an interest in seeing it fail.
That’s not a conspiracy theory, it’s just game theory.
+4
May 15th, 2010 (3:08 am)BS negative surveys of people who have never even SEEN an EV let alone have a drive of one are not worth the paper they are printed on.
If 54% were very concerned about range anxiety that means 46% WERE NOT CONCERNED ABOUT RANGE ANXIETY!!!
The sales number news for the Leaf must be a threat to someone……… as the negative propaganda is flooding the media this week to counteract it.
May 15th, 2010 (5:20 am)If this is the case, then let’s hope the taxpayer is divested and the parts suppliers are not dependent on GM by then. They will be staring at the shrinking tiny hole of light of their grave.
May 15th, 2010 (5:41 am)I agree, the actions and commitments by GM you mention do say something and should be lauded, but millions is an exaggeration. They have currently acted and commited to a MAXIMUM of 50k/yr for one Voltec and an unknown minimum per year qty. This is no small potatoes, just ask Tesla, but it is more a cornerstone than an entire foundation for millions.
May 15th, 2010 (5:46 am)Hi Jackson, I can’t believe you called the entire “pony car”, musclecar era “a styling excercise”!
GM has literally followed along, basically moving on with what has worked for other companies. As I mentioned, there were a couple of gold stars here and there, but even those were not ground-breaking, as the Mustang engendered an entire category of automobile.
I would agree with you that no infernally combusted fire breather is new technology – as today’s cars are based upon proven technology in the automotive field, and just embellished upon. Other than propulsive components – great strides in history have been made in safety and convenience. But no large ones by GM as I can recall.
Volt is new for the industry, but as others have pointed out – trains and ships have mixed electric generators with diesel powerplants for quite some time. It isn’t on such a grand scale or paradigm leap such as nuclear energy was or cracking fusion would be, for instance. Mustang came out in 18 months, Volt has taken twice as long. To me, in auto success stories – there is a valid comparison there. Not technically perfect, but proves a point about GM’s reluctance to take chances.
The Corvette, as I said, has to be one exception to the rule. And it’s development was a battle with top brass at all levels. Sometimes the hand-wringing, the deal making and fudging that goes along with American companies coming out with a new model is mind boggling!
To hear early Volt promoters within GM, sometimes it sounds like a big science project to prove to the global competition that they could do it. They did it, now make it!
Lithium shortage, or lack of battery production capabilities is a more valid assertion for GM’s meek dribble-out of Volt, yet it just doesn’t seem logical to regionalize and smear the car, doing it the way they’ve decided. In fact, more than anything it makes many feel perhaps something is wrong with the entire project altogether.
RECHARGE! James
May 15th, 2010 (6:16 am)Thanks for the pic, Dave. Ah, the memories. I’ll admit I owned that very car, the one with the still small bumpers and bumper guards, in that same color even! Mine was a 1974….
I always go back to the cars/women metaphor – Oh yes, my sweet Fiat 124, oh those were the days, she was so fun to take the top down, and just go for a swift spin rounding fast corners…..(sigh)….Oh yeah, there was that issue with the breaking clutch pedal sinking to the floor every now and then, and the aluminum head that just never seated well with the iron block, oh the oily smell, and…well, all those times she left me stuck with only my feet and an empty wallet…How Guido my Italian mechanic and I became close friends…
But oh those were the days ( sigh )
Could that be Leaf’s legacy as well? —> “Oh yes, I remember those 80 mile range days, how she left me flat by the side of the road holding my plug in my hand…..”
+1
May 15th, 2010 (6:25 am)This is just GM plaing again with the BIG OIL !!! The oil spil form Golf of Mexico dose not afect GM and BIG OIL but afects us PEOPLE ! SO DRIVE ELECRTRIC CARS + SOLAR POWER and you will be free ….
http://gas2.org/2010/05/14/charging-an-electric-car-at-home-how-many-more-solar-panels-do-i-need/
PS. – By the way when GM crushed the EV 1 back in 1995 then it crushed all our chances to get rid of the BIG OIL and not prevented such oil spil in Golf of Mexico
+1
May 15th, 2010 (7:11 am)He LRGProVolt,
GM designs exceptional serviceability into everything they make. GM techs already know all the ICE stuff, but part of the moderated roll out involves the training of the best techs.
Here in Austin, I see 196 independent service shops over the course of a year currently. Most techs are self-motivated to quick proficiency for anything new that comes along (60%). Another 15% can be motivated without a lot of introduction. So there are already plenty of techs in the GM service departments that will absorb all the information immediately.
I personally know 81 techs in independent shops that are very good to outstanding (of the 725 or so techs that I know).
Most likely, facts about the training will remain confidential, because of trade secrets requirements that all competitive businesses practice.
Are you able to come to Austin today or tomorrow?
I’m here at the office until 10 am today if you call, otherwise, I’ll assume you had other priorities and couldn’t make it this time. Likely Volt will be in Texas again sometime soon.
+1
May 15th, 2010 (7:12 am)Of course it was a joke.. I don’t want Don C. gone. He keeps me optimistic.
+2
May 15th, 2010 (7:23 am)The Mustang is a successful exercise in style not content. (repeating Jackson’s comments, I know, but I must offer my own backup)
What production components in that car had never been put on the assembly line prior, and the assembly line is only the FINAL stage of development.
Go ahead, tell me the list of high volume automotive suppliers for plug in battery charge systems, 50 kw generators, electric HVAC systems for the passenger, temperature control and crash proof systems for the liquid cooled battery, capacitive touch sensitive consoles, pressurized gasoline fuel tanks. And these are just a few of the obvious components needed for just one new model!!
Put them all into one car that’s certified for every road in every country around the world, not just the US.
Go order a solar panel built into a Prius. It took how many years for that and how much do you have to spend for it?
I’ll bet that virtually every cubic inch of the Volt has a new patent attached to it, maybe even the mirrors too!! How about the Mustang or any other new car? The Fusion hybrid has a ton of patents. But even there, the battery and CVT are nothing relatively new. The Hybrid Escape was more of a trailblazer. How many of them have been sold?
A BEV is so much simpler and is relatively easy to build compared to the Volt. Go shopping for one of them. Dodge has none, Ford? Nope. Honda has a nice nothing in the showroom. Now lets go look at concept EREVs. How many of them are out there?
A lot of companies have f’d up good things by not anticipating and designing out problems. Even a new Pamper, a freaking diaper, can cost the company millions in adding a single bad component.
I’ve bought first year vehicles in the past. This one is too new for me. I will buy a Volt 2nd generation. My guess for that? 2014.
Thank you, I feel better now.
May 15th, 2010 (7:30 am)DonC will toss out these technically-insignificant seeming negatives on purpose to stimulate certain topics of discussion. (Plus to see who knows what.) Crafty person that DonC.
May 15th, 2010 (8:03 am)Gee, and all this time I thought that he was just pure evil…. (g).
Have a great time this weekend!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 15th, 2010 (8:09 am)Happy EV battery weather in Southern California…
=D-Volt
+3
May 15th, 2010 (8:18 am)Let’s say the volts price after taxes and tag is 36,000 after rebate.. Just throwin’ that number out there. Let’s forget about the production numbers, let’s pretend there are plenty available.
Who’s buying one in the first 2 years? I sadly probably won’t be able too.
May 15th, 2010 (10:02 am)Let’s not start any conspiracy theories! (lol.)
(/…off to the Austin Convention Center and the Volt!!)
+1
May 16th, 2010 (10:01 pm)Hell.
I\We have been waiting for this car for a year and a half. I went to the car show in L.A. and I really liked it, although i wish it was a little longer. Cannot wait to drive it and get one, if the price is right.
Q. Why stop with 40 mile electric range? 60 or 75 electric range I think would be the over the top range. With the right style like the Fisker Karma. I would pay 50k for that car but 88k is over the top for me. Others may pay, but as a everyday car—- can’t do that.
My wife has a round trip commute of a 160 mile. The range extention makes all the difference, 50 to 60 mile in EV mode. This could take my gas bill for $450 to about $140.
40k to 50k mile a year. She has over 335k currently on her car.
They are other cars out there that we like. But want to rule out the Volt first.
P.S. the perfect price would be range would be under 30k.
May 16th, 2010 (10:33 pm)Ref. 278
))
I had a 1977 MG Midget/ 7gal. tank, 50 mpg (real world), rag top with about a dozen snaps to hold it down. And my mechanic was Jesus or Jose.
I paid the rent on his shop more than once!!!
May 17th, 2010 (12:06 pm)My point: I would not roll out a new car model the way GM is rolling out the Volt. Agree?
“… electric HVAC systems for the passenger, temperature control and crash proof systems for the liquid cooled battery, capacitive touch sensitive console…” Yes, it is complicated.
Can a build of 8000 cars count as a new model? Do you think AMCO is going to make wipers for 8000 cars? So is the Volt a new model roll out, or an experiment?
“I will buy a Volt 2nd generation”, me too — like we have a choice. Lol.
Introducting the Chevy Volt. It has never been done before, so we are only going to make a few of them until we figure out how to do it right — so wait for gen 2. Nice. But GM is GM, and to expect more is to be disappointed. Defend them all you want.
GM has a sweet idea, and the LEAF is a direct result of the Volt.
Reminds me of History channel’s man-moment-machine. Even when the Volt gets overtaken, it will still be a turning point — and make the history books.