GM was the first to bring full hybrid full-sized SUVs to the retail market. 2-Mode hybrid versions of the Chevrolet Tahoe/GMC Yukon first went on sale in 2009. The Cadillac Escalade and Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra hybrids soon followed.
Sales volumes have remained stunningly low. In 2010 through the end of April, the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon hybrid had total sales of 1115 units , the Sierra and Silverado sold 506 copies combined, and the hybrid Escalade had sales of only 301. Meanwhile, total US combined hybrid sales through this same four month period was 78, 691 units indicating that as a whole. Thus GM hybrid trucks accounted for only 2.4% of all hybrid sales this year.
Not surprisingly, Chrysler recently announced it couldn’t find a business case for its similar 2-mode hybrid Ram pickup truck and decided to abandon the segment altogether.
“After closely evaluating the response to hybrid pickups in the marketplace,” Chrysler wrote in a statement. We “could not formulate an appropriate business case” and have “decided to cancel development work.”
Sales figures suggest that hybridized trucks still show no sign of catching on. Through the end of February sales rates were down 42% for the segment as a whole, even while at the same time overall hybrid sales were up 26.4%.
GM’s hybrid trucks offer a 25% improvement in fuel economy for what amounts to a several thousand dollar price premium. They get 21 mpg city| 22 mpg highway versus 14 mpg city|19 mpg highway for gas versions.
Despite the dearth of sales and momentum, GM is hanging on to the segment and in fact plans to introduce a more efficient second generation in 2013, and a plug-in version prior to that. They have also announced a $300 million dollar investment to build an electric motor plant to supply those components as well.
“We’re committed to hybrid technology in our fullsize pickups and SUVs,” spokesman Brian Corbett told Ward’s Auto. “We’re not wavering.”
Source in part (Ward’s Auto, subscription)
+11
May 7th, 2010 (6:05 am)Customers cant make a business case either.
A plugin would greatly improve cost per mile and also sales in my opinion. WE need to see mid to high 20s MPG for new Pickups. 5MPG average extra is not worth the multi thousands price increase.
+4
May 7th, 2010 (6:07 am)I suspect price to be the issue.
If the hybrid and non-hybrid trucks were the same price,
I would bet the hybrid trucks would sell first.
Randy is correct. Customers can’t build a business case neither.
+12
May 7th, 2010 (6:09 am)Lyle says “GM’s hybrid trucks offer a 25% improvement in fuel economy for what amounts to a several thousand dollar price premium. ”
My impression is that the total price of these trucks is MUCH more than a few thousand dollars above the base non-hybrid versions because the hybrids are only available with the highest trim level of other options.
I’m guessing that this is a significant part of why so few 2 mode hybrid trucks are sold.
+6
May 7th, 2010 (6:11 am)From the article:
“We’re committed to hybrid technology in our fullsize pickups and SUVs,” spokesman Brian Corbett told Ward’s Auto. “We’re not wavering.”
That’s nice. Glad to hear it. Keep up the good work. Cheerio.
Here is a bit of free advice. Lower the price a lot, and you will sell more. You can make it up in volume. Sell, Sell, Sell.
+9
May 7th, 2010 (6:25 am)By selling the same car with conventional engine and a hybrid one customers can easily compare the price difference with the amount of fuel saved. Then it gets an economical issue.
There is a reason why there is no Toyota Prius with conventional petrol engine – people would then realise how expensive the hybrid system is, and how little fuel it actually saves, and they would buy the cheaper petrol-only Prius model.
Hybrid cars are not about economics – they are about “green image”.
A green image that will fade within a year as Volt and other true green cars appear. Buying a brand new Toyota Prius today is a pretty bad investment. I foresee a great drop in their used car price within a year!
+4
May 7th, 2010 (6:39 am)Good for them! Sales are slow now but gas has also been very cheap due to the recession. I say ignore this little dip in prices. The world is bursting with people who desire an American lifestyle- pumping out babies and wanting their own car. Prices ‘must’ go back up. How high? I think they will try and keep it under $5 as that seemed to be the tipping point that killed off the economy. I imagine we will bounce off a ceiling of $3.50-$4.00? With enough little spikes to make everyone nervous.. hybrids and electric will make more sense as time goes on. Especially since these early models will help drive down the cost. Don’t waver!
+1
May 7th, 2010 (6:42 am)Well, for some positive news, Jessica Watson is very near to finishing her round the world adventure before her 17th birthday.
/If you can’t say something nice…
+7
May 7th, 2010 (6:57 am)I’m especially glad to see that they are looking toward a plugin version! This is where we need to get people’s mindset headed. The investment in the electric motor facility points toward GM literally investing in the increased mileage, large vehicle sector.
It seems to me that trucks are used most in “highway” situations (vs “city”), so shouldn’t they try to get THAT mileage up, as a selling point? I’ve never owned a truck (but my Jeep is built on a truck frame), so I really don’t know for sure which mpg rating is most important to truck users. Any help from actual pickup users would be helpful.
TIA.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+4
May 7th, 2010 (7:00 am)It wouldn’t help to market them a little more. I think the last one I heard about was the Escalade, and that was like a year ago.
Myself, I would be concerned with possible performance loss going to a hybrid truck. They need to market that. The 14/19 to 21/24mpg (or whatever it was) is actually quite impressive for those of us who drive in the city.
+6
May 7th, 2010 (7:05 am)I expect the next generation to give significant increases in mileage over the 21/22 that the Tahoe currently gets.
First, GM has announced that they are working on a new generation of small block engines that will include direct injection. This will help to increase engine efficiency (not to mention the fact that the engine may be downsized).
Second, I expect GM to lower the weight of these large trucks and SUV’s. For example, the new engines are all based on aluminum blocks and heads.
Third, upgrading to a Li-Ion battery pack will provide more efficient electrical exchange.
And fourth, a large plug-in battery pack, like the plug-in Vue’s 8 kWh battery pack (4 usable) will not only provide energy from the grid, but its greater power capacity will allow for a wider range of operation in EV mode, and allow for more regen energy to be captured.
If a large truck or SUV can achieve close to 30 mpg composite, the customer’s business case may change.
+6
May 7th, 2010 (7:17 am)I still think an Electric Elcamino is the way to go for a small sport truck. Use the Voltec platform or take the Pontiac G8 concept.
http://jalopnik.com/369720/bob-lutz-is-on-our-side-thinks-pontiac-g8-el-camino-name-is-great-idea
May 7th, 2010 (7:18 am)Just using battery cells that could be going into a no gas platform like Volt. I predict Volt will get people’s attention much better than a truck that still uses enough gas for two cars. Nothing against trucks, it just seems the battery to gas savings ratio would be better for a Volt.
+11
May 7th, 2010 (7:20 am)Take a real close look at what GM marketing has done with hybrids thus far. They produced in low volume and high markups. Hybrids were difficult to find for test drives and only came in packages loaded with extras plus few choices. If 2-mode actually worked out to only a several thousand dollars difference then they would have a lot more demand. The problem is the base model ICE and hybrid version of that model were more than $10K apart. The press invariably compares the base model to the hybrid model in their cost comparisons.
Also, I think GM’s first “hybrid” truck was really a beefed up alternator that doubled as a 2KW generator. The fuel savings were miniscule but the truck was marketed as a hybrid and green. It should have been marketed as “contractor grade” and ready for the jobsite with it’s internal genset. To my knowledge, the 2-mode doesn’t even offer this feature and without a base model option to minimize the price there is little commercial appeal. A truck that functions as a 5kw generator and saves 50% of fuel in city driving for only $5K more than the base model would sell just fine. The motors are easily capable of producing 5kw and the city mileage for the base 2010 Silverado is 14mpg while the hybrid is 21mpg. The problem is the hybrid starts at $38K but the base ICE starts at $20K. Unless somebody really wants all of the other stuff coming with the hybrid, they see it as a $18K premium.
+6
May 7th, 2010 (7:21 am)Isn’t the amount of gas saved by converting a guzzler vs a sipper to electric, MUCH greater?
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 7th, 2010 (7:23 am)Another possible angle for low sales is, I think a lot of truck owners are the type of person that likes to get out their wrenches and work on their vehicle. I dont know if they want to mess w/a hybrid engine which they may know little about (or most repairs require a computer to diagnose). Just a thought. Price prob is still the #1 culprit though. Also I dont think most truck owners are AS concerned about a green image, as they are about owning a tough vehicle that works 100% of the time. I think GM may need to focus their advertising on why a hybrid is a better quality vehicle, not just a gas saver.
May 7th, 2010 (7:25 am)Lyle,
Are you sure the GM hyrid sales figures in the article are through April and not for April?
+3
May 7th, 2010 (7:30 am)GM cancelled work on a promising new diesel engine the 4.5L when the economy tanked and truck sales plummeted.It was producing 300 HP and was to be used in light duty applications pickups, suberbans, vans ect. THey were getting in the mid to high 20s MPG from what i read. I think this would be cost effective now opposed to hybrid gas. Now that sales are up hopefully they will re-think their decision.
+5
May 7th, 2010 (7:37 am)I researched Silverado Hybrid with the following results:
1. Ya can’t even see/drive one. There are none on the lot.
2. The price premium is 18-20k not 2-3k because you can only get a fully-loaded model
3. It ain’t worth it for the extra complexity. Trucks need to be simple and bullet-proof.
If GM truly gave a choice on *all* models at 3k higher, more hybrids would sell. I think they are hiding the true cost in the premium models.
+12
May 7th, 2010 (7:39 am)On several occasions we’ve noted here that, for example, a 7mpg savings for local driving doesn’t impress buyers. And for high-mileage vehicles it doesn’t save much in fuel cost: (@$2.80/gal & 43mpg, the fuel cost for 12,000mi would be $781, but @ a 7mpg higher 50mpg the fuel cost for 12,000mi would still be $672, a savings of only $109.00). However, there is a significant paradigm shift when the same 7mpg savings applies to a conventional Tahoe vs a Tahoe Hybrid. I wonder if buyers would get the message better if GM added a window sticker showing something like the following:*
==================================================================
SAVINGS for 12,000mi/yr local driving:
Standard Tahoe (local): 14mpg | 12,000mi/14mpg = 857.1 gals | @ $2.80/gal = $2,400.00
This Hybrid Tahoe (local): 21mpg | 12,000mi/21mpg = 571.4 gals | @ $2.80/gal = $1,600.00
———————————————————————————————————————————-
Net Savings for fuel (local): $800.00/yr
Net Savings over 10 YRS: $8,000.00
———————————————————————————————————————————–
*An example something like the above should also be shown in brochures for the Tahoe Hybrid
+4
May 7th, 2010 (7:44 am)As I understand it, a Chevy Tahoe MSRP is around $38,000, whereas a Chevy Tahoe Hybrid MSRP is around $50,000 so the Two-Mode costs an extra $12,000 or so. That is the problem. I think market expectation, built on the Toyota Highlander price premium of around $7,000 makes it unlikely very many people will pay the Two Mode premium.
+4
May 7th, 2010 (7:55 am)That’s my impression also. Then because the vehicles are on the high-priced fringe, there are few such vehicles on the dealer’s lot, or none at all. I’ll bet that many customers who have made a purchase in 2010 were never aware that such a model even exists.
+4
May 7th, 2010 (7:56 am)I remember this engine too Randy. It was basically all ready to go and to be built in Tonawando, NY (spelling?). I’m hoping they resurrect that engine also. But, that could potentially kill their Hybrid sales though. Oh wait….here’s an idea….make a 2-mode Hybrid/ light duty diesel Silverado!!! Who’s with me?
+4
May 7th, 2010 (8:02 am)Tying this post back to Volt: There is good information on the gm-volt forum on the technical side, making the case that the Volt propulsion system is put together as a variant of two-mode. That is a good cross-platform use of development effort, perhaps, but also may be contributing to the high cost basis for Volt that seems to be prevalent across all two-mode vehicles.
+8
May 7th, 2010 (8:06 am)Yes, very important to keep these 10-year totals in mind. The problem is that if the increase in price you pay up front is as much as you get back over 10-years, you haven’t saved anything. In the meantime, is it a better truck or just a more complicated one?
May 7th, 2010 (8:18 am)“We’re committed to hybrid technology in our fullsize pickups and SUVs,” spokesman Brian Corbett told Ward’s Auto. “We’re not wavering.”
Way to go GM.
Don’t give up.
That 2 mode combo in a redesigned, more aerodynamic and lighter truck will catch on. (Especially when gas gets a little higher).
+1
May 7th, 2010 (8:26 am)I’m with you 100%
+1
May 7th, 2010 (8:29 am)I will admit, I have only sold 3 Tahoe Hybrids in the last 24 months. Seems like they were introduced at the beginning of our current recession/depression.
Two customers were owners of medium sized businesses, and one was a regional sales manager. They previously drove Suburbans or Hummers and they were actually down sizing. These guys made north of $100k I’m sure, and only the sales manager financed his purchase.
The Tahoe Hybrid makes perfect sense if you know who is in the market for one. After yesterday’s Wall Street tumble, I’m sure that market segment just got smaller, but when middle-management jobs start growing again, so will hybrid truck sales.
+5
May 7th, 2010 (8:32 am)Interesting how ten people can post that the vehicle makes no business sense without even presenting the numbers.
Leave it to an engineer to put some numbers to the issue instead of a lot of blah, blah, blah.
+3
May 7th, 2010 (8:35 am)Here’s an idea for a commercial:
A VOLT and Tahoe Hybrid sit nose to nose.
“Introducing the Chevy VOLT. Perhaps you have already met it’s big brother.”
+1
May 7th, 2010 (8:35 am)A diesel offers better torque and fuel economy without the complexity of two separate power units. I have yet to figure out why the US auto companies have such an aversion to diesels.
+4
May 7th, 2010 (8:36 am)Price is only part of these failed vehicles. Technology is the other! Parallel hybrids are baby steps vs series hybrid! Start making a series hybrid truck and see what happens!
+4
May 7th, 2010 (8:43 am)Although I “get it”, I’m not sure I’d like the “visual” because the Volt would look like a micro!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
-1
May 7th, 2010 (8:51 am)In a world of dwindling oil reserves a Tahoe or Yukon make no f***** sense whatsoever whether they’re a hybrid or not. They’re not much better than Hummers. The world consumes aprox 83,000,000 barrels per day (that’s about 2000 million gallons a day)… the easy oil is going or gone, what’s left is tar sands and oil a mile down in the Gulf of Mexico… and that’s not looking very good right now!
-1
May 7th, 2010 (9:01 am)People buy cars for many reasons. Saving some gas is not high on that list. In fact, given the time horizon for recouping outlays — generally 6 months — gas is invariably not on the list. Especially for a work vehicle.
Look at hybrid sales. Other than the Prius they’re pathetic. As Bob Lutz has pointed out, they don’t make any real economic sense. To sell them you need to tap into other motivating spirits. Next year we’ll see the Leaf and the Volt, cars which give people all kinds of reasons other than gas savings to buy them. But a work truck that gets a few more MPG, though in fact that’s important, simply doesn’t resonate with buyers.
This is why GM needs to forget expensive two mode trucks and go to natural gas. Even with gas at $2.50/gallon you’d find a whole lot of takers willing to pay a couple of thousand extra in return for lower operating expenses of filling up for the equivalent of $80/gallon.
+10
May 7th, 2010 (9:03 am)The limiting factor with the GM hybrid trucks is the same problem this forum has discussed in detail with the Volt, model availability. The Silvarado/Sierra hybrid is only available in a loaded, half-ton crew cab configuration. Regular or extended cab models are not available as hybrids. Neither are 3/4 ton models. What percentage of the total truck market is loaded, half-ton crew cabs and how does the hybrid perform in that segment despite little marketing and no on-lot availability?
This lack of availability across the pickup spectrum leaves one to wonder if GM is really “in” the hybrid business or is their hybrid offering simply being used as a halo. It seems obvious the latter is the case. If GM is serious about selling hybrids then offer the hybrid in a wide range of models and equipment levels so that all truck buyers have the choice of going hybrid.
As an example, when my wife and I went to one vehicle we decided we still needed a pickup truck. Since the only humans in the house are the two of us, we had absolutely no need for a crew cab; in fact we didn’t want one due to the extra size and parking problems. The only rider in the back seat is Freyja, our Doberman, and she does just fine with the suicide doors of the extended cab. GM’s lack of a hybrid extended cab model effectively ended our consideration of a hybrid.
Further, in the 4WD segment, which we needed here in the NW NC mountains, the fuel savings of a hybrid are limited. In our 5.3L 4WD gas truck we actually get 16/20. The 4WD hybrid rating is 20/20. In order to entice me to spend even an extra 3K the hybrid needs to provide a larger difference in fuel economy.
I wanted to consider a flex-fuel truck but I have never seen a E85 pump. Maybe one day E85 infrastructure will come to the NW mountains of NC. Until then searching for a flex fuel truck was fruitless.
Finally I must comment on the post stating that truck owners won’t buy hybrid trucks because they don’t know how to work on them, thus conjuring up images of Bo and Luke Duke. How many people buying $50K pickup trucks work on them themselves? Folks buying $50K trucks don’t even change their own oil.
Unless GM offers Voltec in some configuration besides a compact, 4 seat sedan it will eventually face the same appeal limitations of the hybrid pickup. Many of us (even on this forum) have no need or desire for such a vehicle. However if we have a choice of a small SUV (Volt MPV5) or a small pickup (the old Dodge Rampage comes to mind), and an AWD option (for us in the mountains) then the appeal of Voltec rises dramatically. I learned a long time ago that “one size fits all” only works for baseball caps.
Peace and 73
Adam
+1
May 7th, 2010 (9:03 am)As alluded above, the reasons people purchase SUV’s and trucks are different than the reasons people purchase a Prius or Volt. Gas mileage is not the most important factor for someone who can even afford a Hummer, for instance (or even consider buying one). At that socio-economic level they can afford to pump five dollar a gallon gas into their metal beasts.
You don’t buy a Cadillac because it gets good gas mileage. It’s about prestige.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (9:09 am)Hey GM, its the price stupid. So GM only sells the 2-mode hybrids basically loaded. I suspect this is for price comparison and they are selling the trim upgrades at a lower cost to mask the high cost of the 2-mode hybrid system. The cost of the 2-mode will only come down if GM finds more customers, but at this rate, don’t hold your breath.
+4
May 7th, 2010 (9:10 am)I would be very interested in a NG truck! It’s strange that several years ago, you could get NG vehicles in USA. Now all that’s available is Honda GX and you gotta be a fleet buyer to get one.
+3
May 7th, 2010 (9:10 am)“second generation in 2013, and a plug-in version prior to that.”
Finally, GM gets the picture. No Plug, No Sale!
I want my Volt.
The True Dual Fuel Vehicle. TDFV
NPNS!
+1
May 7th, 2010 (9:12 am)DonC
$80/gallon? You lost me.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 7th, 2010 (9:15 am)The 2 mode hybrid is interesting. IMHO the cost is too high for the value received.
I agree the series hybrid approach may make more sense.
+3
May 7th, 2010 (9:27 am)American still are not serious about saving gas, saving environment. period. The trucks, SUVs’ are getting bigger and heavier. These big vehicle owners are not much care about gas mileage. I WANT A BIGGER TRUCK THAN THE GUY BESIDE ME. SAD…….
+3
May 7th, 2010 (9:29 am)Yes the are.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
May 7th, 2010 (9:30 am)22/25 mpg just won’t cut it – 30+ mpg is the magic number needed to attract attention to these hybrid behemoths. In the buyer’s mind, if fuel economy figures are not a level occupied by the average small economy vehicle, then it’s a wasted effort.
+2
May 7th, 2010 (9:45 am)As a potential customer (need a truck to pull an RV), the present Hybrid makes no sense.
Chev/GM offers XFE models of their pickups which get exactly the same highway mileage as the hybrids, tow more weight, and offer better towing options. All for considerably less money.
The only gain in the hybrid is city mileage, and I use a car for that.
The hybrid would have to offer better mileage than the XFE on the highway and at least match the car in the city (25-30MPG) before I would consider it.
+2
May 7th, 2010 (9:59 am)I think the GM/Chrysler two-mode project made a bad design decision to go too big. They argued that you save the most gas (and cut the most CO2) by putting the system on the largest vehicles. While that logic was sound, it ignored marketing. The intersection of the set of consumers motivated to buy a hybrid with the set of consumers looking to buy a large truck/SUV just isn’t very large.
A while ago I asked a GM rep about moving the two-mode system to smaller vehicles (not necessarily tiny, just smaller than the Silverado/Tahoe/Sierra/Yukon) and he said it pretty much could not be done. I guess the 2nd-generation two-mode system will be better in this regard.
I thought the GM two-mode hybrids did have 110v power outlets, but apparently not. Ford Escape Hybrids have one.
+11
May 7th, 2010 (10:08 am)Hi Tagamet, may I give you my two cents worth… as a pickup truck owner and as a 2009 GMC Sierra Hybrid owner? This is my third pickup. I will always buy a pickup as it suits my needs just fine. In a perfect world, I might have a Volt as my commuter car and a pickup for weekend duties. That will never happen, unless I win the lottery. Therefore I bought the Sierra Hybrid back in last September.
First off, I could not afford this truck if I didn’t get a HUGE deal from my friend who is the general manager of the dealership! Basically, he made next to nothing over his dealer invoice. I am not a rich man, I work in Architecture. Up here in Canada, Architects make squat. Yes, the MSRP is too steep, but I got a deal I could not refuse!
Secondly, I need a pickup truck to haul camping gear, tow my pop-up trailer, haul construction supplies, and seats 5 persons (it actually can seat 6 in a pinch). I admit, that it is bigger than I need, but they don’t make a mid-size 2 mode hybrid do they? This truck replaced my 2004 Colorado. It gets better fuel efficiency than the 5 cylinder Colorado did! It can out-haul and out-tow it hands down. It is so much more comfortable and refined. Someone mentioned a possible performance hit by being a hybrid? I can attest that 332 hp and 367 lb/ft of torque are plenty for most pickup owners, especially myself.
This truck has a split personality. It is very quiet and smooth if you’re easy on the pedal. It is surreal when I drive on electric power alone and the only sound I hear is the sound of my tires on the pavement and some high pitched electrical sounds when the regen braking is working or when accelerating. It sounds like a jet engine winding up or down. When you need the power, it’s there, 332 horses ready to GO! Then it’s a BEAST! The 6.0 litre V8 comes to life and unleashes its fury if needed.
As for fuel mileage, I can tell you that one time on a mixed highway/city trip I watched the average fuel eficiency go down as low as 10.4l/100km. Don’t ask me what that is in MPG, do your own math please. I don’t generally watch that figure, so I may have had better than that since I bought it. My Colorado could never do that, I know because I always checked my average after every tankful. In March I drove to Vermont and back for a ski and snowboard vacation, loaded with gear and luggage, on sticky snow tires, with 2 passengers, and I did 1700km on under 200 litres of gas. My Colorado could not do that.
As far as which MPG figure is more important to me? I do about 75% city and 25% highway so the city figure is more important to me. That’s where I notice the improvement more. I am always stuck in stop and go traffic. When the gas engine is off, I am burning no fuel, and emitting no noxious gases. When traffic moves slowly, I am still using no gas up to around 50km/h. I love it!
Oh, and by the way. My truck is not loaded! I did not order it, it was on the dealer’s lot. So to those that say you can only get them loaded, I say BS. True, they only come in crew cab…not everyone needs that, but I do.
So, GM, if you’re listening, thank-you for not giving up on the 2 mode truck program. Yes, I wish it was a plug-in, but that will come. Yes, it has the old-style NiMH batteries, but that will change. Please drop the MSRP and you will certainly sell more. Also, please put it into the mid-size Colorado or its replacement! Not everyone needs a full-size pickup.
Thanks!
May 7th, 2010 (10:09 am)I didn’t know about the XFE models, but this article http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/12/gm-debuts-fuel-saving-xfe-versions-of-silverado-sierra-and-tahoe/ says it makes only a 1 mpg difference. Do the two-mode hybrids do no better than that on the highway?
+2
May 7th, 2010 (10:11 am)Actually, the FWD 2-mode system once planned for the VUE (and having components and/or a housing shared by the Volt?) is significantly more appealing from a marketing standpoint than the RWD system discussed by this topic. In fact, GM executives publicly commented that they thought the plug-in VUE 2-mode would likely achieve as much as 60 mpg!
May 7th, 2010 (10:13 am)Ha ha. Lost decimal point. Eight cents not eighty dollars. Actually natural gas might be even less expensive than that. To run the numbers yourself: it takes 1.25 therms of natural gas to get the energy of a gallon of gas, and a therm of natural gas is about $.44 wholesale.
May 7th, 2010 (10:18 am)Where I am you can buy a Civic as an individual, but yes, there are no trucks. There should be though. Utah has a thriving conversion business but that adds expense and I’m not sold on the safety. I’d much prefer to see original factory models.
+2
May 7th, 2010 (10:22 am)These vehicles have always troubled me from a strategy standpoint. Like others have pointed out, it only comes in the the $50k price range and then the other part of the equation (besides making enough of them) is that a big group of your customers for that type of vehicle actually have to care about saving a few gallons per mile of gasoline and would want to pay extra for the hybrid system.
I would move that while there is a small market for people buying a work type $50k vehicle, that the vast majority in this market could care less about saving a few miles per gallon of gasoline and you’d be looking at very small potential production numbers to spread your dev costs over. Do you want to spend alot of money to create a 2 mode hybrid system to go after that market?
IMHO, GM should have looked around and said, hey nobody has done a hybrid system in a small minivan – its a hole in the market and alot of soccer mom’s might care about the image of saving gasoline (they make up a big chunk of the hybrid buyers for the Prius, but alot would like a bigger vehicle) and put their efforts into that. JMHO of course. (Toyota is moving to fill this hole now)
This reminds me a little of the lesson Honda had visited on it with the Accord Hybrid – they decided they’d make a power hybrid, so it was an Accord EX with the V-6 and a hybrid system clamped on, it didn’t get much if any better mileage on the highway and basically only brought up the city mileage. It was a total failure in the market, as Honda could not give them away and they dropped it after a couple of years – because the people who buy “Hybrids” don’t buy them for power, they buy them for the mileage/saving gas (whether that’s image or not is up to everyone else to figure out).
But these current GM execs who’ve canceled the Converj, canceled the Orlando for the US, decided not to put the already finished and in production 2 mode hybrid and plug-in into the Equinox from the Vue, lowered the first year Volt production and are telling us they need to have demand proven before deciding to plan on raising production significantly for the Volt (guess that point would be after 2012?), they know what their doing – that $50k truck hybrid market is just primed to break out, time to double-down…
+5
May 7th, 2010 (10:23 am)Increasing the fuel economy of a 15 MPG “gas hog” by 25% will save the driver far more money than increasing the fuel economy of a 40 MPG car by 25%.
Looking at http://www.mpgillusion.com/2009/07/car-dealers-car-buyers-and-cash-for.html:
Going from 15 MPG to 20 MPG (5 MPG difference) saves you about $400 when driving 10,000 miles per year.
Going from 40 MPG to 50 MPG saves only $150 when driving 10,000 miles per year–even if it’s 10 MPG more.
May 7th, 2010 (10:23 am)Unfortunately we Americans also think that the larger the more safe it is inside. That’s why we have these bigazz “McCars”….lol
Many Soccer moms drive them because they feel “Safer” in them. Just go to a Soccer field or little league baseball game and count up the cars vs. Suv. Or better yet, sit in the parking lot of schools and do the same.
Personally I want a small Truck, Colorado PHEV that get’s 30MPG+.
May 7th, 2010 (10:28 am)Here’s an interesting tidbit. Here is a report about how natural gas could cut dependency on oil:
Replacing 3.5 million medium and heavy vehicles with natural gas vehicles by 2035 would keep the U.S. from importing about 1.2 million barrels of day, or more than is currently being imported from Saudi Arabia daily
http://www.environmentalleader.com/2010/04/16/switching-3-5m-commercial-trucks-to-natural-gas-would-save-1-2m-bbl-of-oil-a-day/
+3
May 7th, 2010 (10:29 am)The term “Hybrid” is deemed to achieve over 45MPG. That’s the consumer perception. Sure your numbers are correct but the consumer will look at those lame 21mpg numbers and laugh. It one of those scenarios where when the bar is friggin low, any percentage that sounds high is really mediocre when the “Hybrid” name is slapped on it. Especially when the price tag of a hybrid SUV is in the range of $47,000.00 or more. http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Chevrolet_Tahoe-Hybrid/
Most consumers in the “Hybrid” market are looking for higher mpg not higher percentage increase from grotesquely low to below average for a “Hybrid”.
-1
May 7th, 2010 (10:31 am)The issue is how much of a premium you pay in order to get this $400/year savings. At the $5000 premium GM wants you’ll never recover the extra expense. And most buyers want to recover the extra expense in a year or so, not after ten or fifteen years. IOW the discount rate is very very high.
May 7th, 2010 (10:33 am)Here’s the link for anyone who wants to see which company loads the most crap into a hybrid to hide the cost of hybridization.
http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-scorecard/
If they didn’t pile so much crap on the cars *maybe* it could be more affordable? What’s your take CorvetteGuy?
+1
May 7th, 2010 (10:37 am)The GM two-mode hybrids do have 110V power outlets; i just don’t know what the wattage is.
May 7th, 2010 (10:40 am)The current generation DO NOT…I certainly don’t (2009).
+3
May 7th, 2010 (11:03 am)#22
Best idea I’ve heard today. I’m with you. +1
May 7th, 2010 (11:06 am)I am concerned that GM just don’t get it. If I don’t get a Volt I will be buying a strong hybrid small SUV like the Escape or any other similar hybrid. I am done waiting for something that just is not going to happen…
Here’s to the Volt out soon and the other car companies who will sell strong hybrids and EVs!!
Thanks.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (11:09 am)The hybrid premium on these 2 Mode trucks is about $3-4k, based on the cost of the parts in a dealership parts dept. The transmission is about the same as a regular transmission, but then you have to add the battery and a couple of inverters. Probably about the same cost as a diesel.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (11:13 am)Eat more protein, less carbs and fats.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (11:14 am)Oh.. and buy a Volt!!!
+1
May 7th, 2010 (11:15 am)The Ford Escape is not available yet. No plan yet to build them for consumers per the Ford rep that spoke at an environmental fair in Rochester Michigan. It was a very nice looking vehicle, got 30 miles AER.
May 7th, 2010 (11:15 am)#45
Right. We have big pickup to tow our trailers and an S-10 to run around in the city. So the hybrid pickups are of no use to us, and less still the Tahoes, et al. Plus, the hybrid pickups offered only have 6 foot beds, which also does not work for our purposes.
Did anyone ever hear of the concept of reinforcing success, and not failure? Maybe GM can throw a few hundred million $$ more at hybrid pickups and get their market share up from 2.4% to 4.8%. Whoop-de-doo!
LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!
May 7th, 2010 (11:18 am)Only a little OT: has anyone been following the current X-Prize competition (to achieve over 100 MPG in a production capable vehicle)? The current round in the competition is taking place at the MIS speedway in Brooklyn Mich (near Jackson).
I am a little miffed that GM has not entered the Volt.
May 7th, 2010 (11:18 am)#47
That’s what I’m talkin’ about. +1
+2
May 7th, 2010 (11:18 am)Yawn. Same old boss, it is increasing looking like, with yesterday’s post and today’s. Where is the vision GM needs desperately, Whitacre? Feels like it’s getting nipped in the bud.
May 7th, 2010 (11:22 am)#53
That’s been GM’s rationale from the beginning, and look how well it’s worked out for them, LOL.
May 7th, 2010 (11:23 am)#54
Amen. +1
May 7th, 2010 (11:25 am)#56
Exactly. +1
+1
May 7th, 2010 (11:26 am)6 MONTHS to go for the launch of the All-New Chevy VOLT.
STILL NO WORD from GM on which SoCal dealers will get them or how many… Sigh.
May 7th, 2010 (11:29 am)#70
It’s hard not to get that impression, alas. +1
May 7th, 2010 (11:31 am)6 months?
Shouldn’t there be a price announcement by now?
Or was it 5 months.?????? Aw sh|t, I can’t remember now.
May 7th, 2010 (11:33 am)Saw this on CNN today:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/06/autos/onstar_relaunch/index.htm
+1
May 7th, 2010 (11:34 am)I hate to say this, CG, but that “WHEN” may actually be an “IF.”
EDIT/ADDENDUM:
I like it… I like it a lot!
But, I fear the “why?” of the two vehicles’ relationship will be lost on the masses. Most have never seen a 2-mode; or if they have, not recognized it for what it was. Hell, I’m not even sure I’VE ever seen one.
May 7th, 2010 (11:38 am)Especially here in Kahl-Eee-forn-eeyah!
+2
May 7th, 2010 (11:42 am)Amen. Whitacre seems like an action guy (“will another billion $ get the Volt ready faster?”), which is great, but the action needs to be in the right direction. No one has an electric propulsion crystal ball with great calirity; vision is needed for that. And Lutz certainly had plenty of that. And Nissan still does. And the Chinese government.
May 7th, 2010 (11:46 am)I have a question a little off the current thread that was sparked by a comment Bob Lutz made to Lyle regarding his concern about battery longevity (in the Volt) if it is parked on a hot parking lot all day.
This has probably been asked and answered somewhere here but I don’t remember. Q: Could a 2nd or 3rd generation Volt include a rooftop solar panel (like the prius does) that could power the thermal management system for the battery? I know there has been discussion about using such a panel to condition the cabin, but it seems the priority should be the battery. And could it work for cold climates as well? In cold weather the Volt’s ICE starts up to warm the battery, but if there was sun (even on a cold day) would it work to warm the battery as well as cool it? And if purchasing that option, would the battery warranty be longer?
The techies here can surely tell us if there is enough juice from a roof top solar panel to do the job.
Thanks.
+2
May 7th, 2010 (11:51 am)AS LOW AS! Yowza! That’s about 22.2 MPG in USA parlance. As a ’05 Sierra owner, that sounds pretty frickin’ impressive to me!
EDIT: Make that 22.62 MPG. My top-o-the-head math was a bit off. Even better economy than I guessed!
+1
May 7th, 2010 (11:52 am)An “Economy” Hybrid SUV that gets 22mpg. I don’t think the demographics work out either.
Driving over LEAFs and Volts while getting 21/22mpg would be amusing ‘tho — but too few peeps will want it. I think the smart4two is too tall to drive over, push it over first?
May 7th, 2010 (12:04 pm)I think the original post was talking about the 2 mode Escape Hybrid that Ford has been making for more than half a decade and it does come with a 110v outlet so you can run stuff.
I’m guessing you might be talking about a Ford Escape plug-in that Ford hasn’t pushed forward (i.e. production) for so long.
+2
May 7th, 2010 (12:09 pm)Nothin’ says “I want a diesel-electric AWD voltec!” like a big truck!
I just don’t see the 2-mode offering enough for the money compared to using a beefy voltec drive. Sure, the 2-mode mileage is better than standard, but with the voltec it probably would be too and you get all electric, transmission free operation and all the driving and maintenance benefits of that. Additionally in a truck you could tap into the generator and provide worksite power. And the crazy pulling power of a pair of electric motors (one in front, one in back) or something. There’s so many more benefits to a pure electric drive system compared to the 2-mode. And it’s not like the 2-mode is a cheap solution, far from it. So, if you want people to pay thousands of dollars more, give them something really revolutionary.
+3
May 7th, 2010 (12:12 pm)If gas prices go up in 5~10 years you would save more.
+3
May 7th, 2010 (12:16 pm)The point is if you need or want to drive a truck or SUV, pay a little extra to reduce our oil consumption. Who cares about the price premium? I don’t. I would rather drive a truck @ 20 MPG than a truck @ 15 MPG, period.
Just because the “business case” can’t be simply measured by gas savings doesn’t mean the broader economic impact doesn’t make enormous sense.
By the way, I am buying the Hybrid Sierra this weekend . . . based on the sales number Lyle shared, I should be able to negotiate a good price!
-1
May 7th, 2010 (12:30 pm)But it has to make sense to the buyer. You are an exception.
When there are not enough buyers, something has to change.
+2
May 7th, 2010 (12:39 pm)I wholeheartedly and respectfully disagree. What you describe might be the perception of a certain group of people looking at hybrids, and quite possibly the majority- but certainly not all. Don’t paint everyone with your silly minimalist brush Jack! 45mpg minimum might be YOUR term Jack but it isnt mine.
IMO General Motors didn’t build the 2-mode trucks (which IS a “full” or “strong” series-parallel hybrid for those of you like Islander, that don’t understand the technology) I don’t think GM ever expected to convince someone who’s in the market for a Prius, to by a hybrid Tahoe instead. Ridiculous.
They produce them for people that already know they need a full-size SUV or pickup for whatever myriad of reasons. The 2-mode technology works, very well in fact, and creates an excellent fuel economy scenario AS COMPARED TO AN EQUALLY SIZED VEHICLE! There’s no delusions that it’s anything more than that. But they still have value. In fact they SAVE more fuel annually than any other hybrid.Put another way A 2-MODE SAVES TWICE AS MUCH FUEL ANNUALLY AS COMPARED TO SWITCHING UP A V6 CAMRY TO A HYBRID MODEL. I bought my hybrids to significantly reduce operating costs, which I assure you THEY DO! The “Union of Concerned Scientists” can KMA!!!
I currently have two 2-mode pickups that are shared in part with the family business.In fact (I’m buying 2 more of them and hopefully if business remains good another pair in the fall) As compared to my monthly fuel costs for a small (15 employee) landscape business, the 2 vehicles are easily saving me around $300-$500 per month over the regular 1/2 ton pickups. (depending on mix of hwy -city) and I can easily average 25-26mph over the week if I drive it “nice”. (and train and promote my employees to do the same with “incentives”) My best day was 29mpg which is outstanding for any pickup let alone full size. I’m trading in my Canyons.
Yes, they were a bit more expensive but NOT $12,000 like some of the “I did the research” idiots up at the top-thread were mouthing off about. More Internet educated experts I guess. I doubt they’ve ever even purchased a new vehicle but nobody pays MSRP or sticker price, so evaluating those numbers is senseless IMO. I paid maybe $3000-$4000 more than a comparably equipped Sierra, but the trucks are NOT as fully loaded as the Yukon (which I am also considering BTW) so no navigation/DVD players and basic manual A/C (not climate control) which saves about $4500.
So you have to compare apples to apples. You cant easily compare the base Yukon to a fully loaded non-hybrid either.So I’m seriously considering a 2-mode Yukon besides the two additional pickups. I could maybe live without the NAV and DVD but most of the other options I would have wanted anyways, but I can buy one today for $36,000 not $50K
Plus I can tow a small trailer (up to 6000lbs) and STILL I get over 20mph. So as far as I’m concerned GM should just make ALL of their 1/2 ton trucks 2-mode hybrids and improve their CAFE profile considerably. I think the 2-mode technology is the best thing to come to a 1/2 ton pickup since the small-block Chevy and a bunch of holier-than-thou pimply-faced bicycle riding college brats on the Internet won’t convince me otherwise. LOL
LB.
FYI While the 2-mode trucks are not equipped, the Yukon hybrid does have a 120V inverter in the rear of the storage area however it wont operate much more than a laptop or video game- 150 watts maximum according to the brochure.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (12:39 pm)Good point. It’s insurance against wild price swings, too.
You just don’t need to buy as much.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (12:53 pm)I hope now most people can realize that perhaps 8,000 then 50,000 volts is a reasonable number when you consider just how few hybrids they’ve sold so far. Give em a little credit for making that many. I understand this car is completely different than anything out there. But that’s exactly what will make some people hesitant at first. Many buyers will say well lets wait a few years, see how happy others are with these things before we get one. I know when the Prius came out I felt the batteries might not last that long in them. Now that the tech has been proven to last almost 10 years way more people are interested in them. The same will happen with the Volt. It’s far more important GM make these cars right than to make an over abundant amount. Nuff Said.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (12:59 pm)Gee, not selling many $50,000 hybrids that get 22mpg, no real surprise.
If they can get them above 35mpg, I’m sure sales might jump some. 22mpg isn’t enough for the premium on full size size suvs.
May 7th, 2010 (1:06 pm)Hi John W, I think the current plan is to make 8000 Volts next year (4000 model year 2011 and 4000 Model year 2012) through December 2011. Now in 2012 GM is constructing the production capacity to make 60,000 Volts in 2012, but will only ramp up production as demand dictates.
Toyota has not specified (as far as I know) when the Prius PHV will go on sale, but many think late 2011 as a 2012 model. Toyota has said they will produce between 20,000 and 30,000.
So it looks like all of us will be able to buy, if we choose, a plug in in 2012. And right now the Volt looks like the best fit for me. But that is pending the price announcement and independent evaluation of AER and charge sustaining mode fuel economy.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (1:08 pm)You are talking different target audiences here with people who want trucks vs people who want to buy the newest technology and the reason they desire that product.
A truck is a work vehicle… period. Unless you can demonstrate to the truck buying public that this is a good investment for their business/farm then you (for the most part) will not get a sale. They are probably more likely to buy a diesel and make their own biofuel then get a hybrid that costs them extra money.
The people who are going to buy the Volt initially have discretionary income, want to be on the edge of technology and are willing to pay extra to get an electric or hybrid car (EREV for all of you out in Volt Nation). Specific reasons vary but basically it is the big three of 1) get us off oil, 2) National Security, 3) environmental concerns. Unless there is a specific reason they want a green vehicle as part of their business plan (green taxi, etc.) there is no viable economic reason to get a Volt. Just so you know… I plan on getting a Volt so yes, I have crunched the numbers and despite never owning an American car I still want my Volt.
I believe that truck buyers are very patriotic but they still have to eat and pay bills. Apart from a few who also want to do their part to get us off oil, etc. you just won’t see big sales until the economic picture makes more sense (i.e. price parity with ICE trucks).
In other words… that dog just won’t hunt.
Harrier1970
+1
May 7th, 2010 (1:11 pm)@Joe,
The “premium” isnt as much as you seem to think, (when you compare apples to apples) and the “gains” are far more substantial than they get credit for. (eg. saves more fuel annually than a Camry hybrid) I know I’ve bought 2 of them and plan buy more. If you are actually IN the market for a 1/2 ton pickup (highly doubtful in your case) they are definately worth a look.
QUOTE “I think the 2-mode technology is the best thing to come to a 1/2 ton pickup since the small-block Chevy and a bunch of holier-than-thou pimply-faced bicycle riding college brats on the Internet won’t convince me otherwise.”
Nuff said
.LB
+1
May 7th, 2010 (1:11 pm)Yes you are right on Loboc. I went to the dealer with my friend(just to help him negotiate). He wanted to buy a 2009 Tahoe. When we asked about the hybrid version we were told point blank by the salesman “You don’t want one of them. It’s going to cost you about $10,000 more, take three months to come and offer marginally better fuel economy, plus there’s more stuff to break down” I was shocked how negative he was about them. It’s now wonder they don’t sell many of them if the salesman take this approach. He was basically saying only an idiot would buy one.
May 7th, 2010 (1:14 pm)Very well put harrier1970, especially that last sentence. +1
+3
May 7th, 2010 (1:21 pm)Short answer: NO. As a rough rule of thumb, under ideal conditions silicon solar panels can generate about 1 watt/sq ft. A roof top of 5ft x 6ft would allow generating only ~30W of power, which is enough to run a small exhaust fan to keep the car’s interior from becoming an oven —and I hope GM also offers it as an option. But 30W is at least 10:1 too little power to cool or heat the battery enough to matter, either by Peltier effect cooling or by heat strip heating. The best approach to battery thermal control is the one I mentioned here a few days ago: a multi-layer insulation system approximating the effect of a number of vacuum jars in series, supplemented as needed by an active heating/cooling system circulating coolant.
May 7th, 2010 (1:22 pm)GM probably offers a fleet version just like you want, they should include some sort of remote monitoring equipment so you could see what your employees are doing and how fast they are driving.. I bet that would become a very popular vehicle with fleet managers everywhere.
http://www.gmfleet.com/chevrolet/silverado-hybrid-1500/
May 7th, 2010 (1:53 pm)The problem with the pickups is that an appropriately sized battery bank is far too expensive so they make trade-offs that result in a pathetic hybrid.
Much of the fuel savings in a hybrid car like the Prius or Fusion come from the ability to put a small engine in the car and have acceptable performance. When cruising the freeway, a hybrid car engine is at high relative power where the engine efficiency is high.
Even cars like a Prius do experience power fade where the battery goes dead and performance suffers. This would be far more extreme on a pickup towing a load. The battery would have to hold enough energy to climb a mountain pass towing a heavy load if the engine was size reduced. A battery big enough would be quite a bit larger (energy wise) than the Volt pack. This would make the hybrid option a $20K or more option.
That would never sell at that price. So instead GM puts a BIG engine in to eliminate power fade. This results in almost no fuel savings on the highway.
This same parallel is true with long distance trucks. There are already effective hybrid transit buses and deliver trucks are coming out now. They do fine because they don’t face climbing mountain passes on the freeway and can get away with little engines. Long distance trucks aren’t viable yet because of the same reasons. There are already hybrid switch locomotives, and we may see hybrid locomotives for commuter trains as some point soon, but no hybrid freight locomotives for the same reason.
Over time the packs will get cheaper and then we’ll see effective hybrid pickups, trucks and maybe even freight locomotives.
May 7th, 2010 (2:07 pm)Just going to a diesel saves fuel. The 1/2 ton hybrid gets 21/22. Or you can get the latest one ton diesels that match it on the highway mileage and get really close on the city mileage with twice the capacity.
May 7th, 2010 (2:18 pm)Randy, you’ve nailed it
+2
May 7th, 2010 (2:18 pm)OK. My B.S. meter is pegged out now.
/That post is almost as rich as you are. What are you landscaping, marijuana?
May 7th, 2010 (2:22 pm)Randy you’ve nailed it and it only took a half a paragraph, good job. What GM needs to do is to have their hybrids (2 mode) compete directly with the standard gas guzzlers. I believe the 2 mode to be a good buy but not at an extra $5000.
May 7th, 2010 (2:39 pm)OT-
Looks like a high current quick charge (aka Dave “ka-boom” G.’s worst nightmare) may be just around the Japanese corner.
Firm Says It’s Made System That Can Recharge EV’s Batteries Halfway in 3 Minutes
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2010/05/firm-says-its-made-system-that-can-recharge-evs-batteries-halfway-in-3-minutes.html
May 7th, 2010 (2:41 pm)Its good to see your enthusiasum but you have to realize that the average pickup drivver doesn’t put the miles on that you. When you buy those two vehicles in the fall that will be about half GM vehicle sales for the month
May 7th, 2010 (2:47 pm)To which aspect do you claim BS?
What part of “landscaping” don’t you understand son? and why would you just assume it’s some form of illicit business? (my guess is you dont get out from behind a computer too often- which generally means you’ll never amount to much- unless you get your ass in gear)
FYI Landscapers typically don’t “grow” anything, we buy from local nurseries and farms. We create yards and gardens, (planting trees, building retaining walls, creating flower beds, laying sod and other greenscape) generally in new housing developments or for people doing yard reno’s. We also do commercial landscape for office buildings and parks as well as yard maint. We have been in business for over 40 years and have 10 pickups with trailers, two 1-ton duallys with 5th wheel trailers to haul 2 Bobcat skid-steer loaders, and a Kubota hoe.
Trust me, for ANYONE that actually NEEDS a pickup or the people hauling capability of a large SUV, the GM 2-MODE hybrids are the best idea on the market.
And to Matthew-B you obviously dont know how the 2-mode system actually works because unlike other hybrids the 2-mode electric drive IS 100% OPERATIONAL even at highway speeds, allowing the 6.0L engine to be reduced to a 3.0L engine using GMs Displacement On Demand feature.(I see this on my driver’s info display so…) After driving for a few minutes it witches back to V8 and charges the LARGE battery (300Volts according to the warning labels)for a bit then goes back to V4.
Thus my 2-mode trucks get 25% BETTER highway AND city mileage compared to the non-hybrids hauling the exact same loads.
LB.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (2:57 pm)Thats a good concise description on how the Prius and Volt get their high efficiency.
What they need is engines with variable amounts of displacement, like a V8 that can switch off half its banks (as LB describes).. there are some designs that avoid parasitic drag from the deactivated cylinders.
-1
May 7th, 2010 (3:02 pm)No need to be snarky with me buddy. I’ll defer to you about dirt and plants. Leave the engineering to engineers.
You are confounding two different things. Being a hybrid does not enable displacement on demand. There are plenty of conventional pickups with displacement on demand.
If the hybrid battery was MUCH bigger, the truck could have a 3L engine, not a selectable displacement 6. A 3L engine would improve the fuel efficiency.
The 3L wouldn’t have an extra 4 cylinders. Even though they aren’t burning fuel, they are there creating friction and a little pumping loss. Cutting the fuel delivery and closing the valves to 4 cylinders greatly decreases the pumping loss but doesn’t take it to zero and it does nothing for the friction of the rings.
May 7th, 2010 (3:12 pm)#85
Works for me, but I don’t see anybody out there with the vision to make it happen. +1 for creativity anyway.
May 7th, 2010 (3:16 pm)There are multiple non-hybrid trucks that do exactly that.
But they don’t mechanically disconnect the cylinders. What they do is cut off the fuel and close both valves. The air is repeatedly compressed and then expanded over and over again.
This helps is a couple of places. The inactive cylinders are no longer pulling against the manifold vacuum and delivering against the exhaust pressure, cutting the pumping loss. By cutting the displacement, the manifold vacuum is reduced because the power is being produced by fewer cylinders and the per-cylinder mass flow rate goes up. This reduces the pumping loss even more. The combustion pressure in the working cylinders goes up improving combustion efficiency..
All of these are the reasons that a smaller engine is more efficient for a given load within the capability of both.
But just closing the valves isn’t perfect. That’s because the cylinder is still moving. There is still the piston ring friction. If the rings didn’t leak and the cylinder was insulated, the compression and expansion of the air wouldn’t take up energy. But the rings leak out on the top of the stroke and leak in at the bottom; that’s all loss. When the air is under high pressure, it gives up heat to the coolant; when it expands it cools back down and cools the walls back down. That is also a loss.
A good example of what is done on hybrid transit buses. A regular transit bus has a 300-400 HP engine. A hybrid transit bus is a pure series hybrid and they have engines around 100HP. Yes, 1/3 to 1/4 the displacement!
If the Sierra had the same type of system, it could have a 2-3L engine. It doesn’t so they still must have an engine that is just as big as the non-hybrid trucks.
May 7th, 2010 (3:19 pm)Post a pic of your dashboard that displays the MPG after you’ve hauled your load like you said. I’m curious how one can achieve the MPG you state when the tests for MPG is done “unloaded”. Seems a little skeptical when someone sez they get more mpg when the car is loaded than unloaded. Weight kills. That’s why carcus2′s BS meter went up.
Oh and according to CorvetteGuy, everybody will pay the msrp, otherwise, how does a dealer stay in biz? At least he said that last time……sort of kind of like that.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (3:29 pm)Not to mention additional weight….
May 7th, 2010 (3:38 pm)lol….
Shhhh…..more for us.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (4:17 pm)You’ve pretty much nailed it on all counts. The only quibble is I’d add that the technology is cool as another reason for getting a Volt. So big four reasons instead of big three. But in any event that’s a lot of reasons.
The economics of truck sales is why I just don’t understand why GM and Ford don’t do NG trucks. It’s not too hard to figure out the advantage of paying eighty cents a gallon for gas, and on the manufacturing side it’s not much more expensive to produce an NG truck. (Compare how many NG truck conversions you’ve seen with how many EV conversions — big difference in the numbers).
+1
May 7th, 2010 (4:31 pm)I think you meant to say 10 watts per square foot. But they are all highly varied from what they post on the packaging box. Efficiencies are said to be going up, but the panels are frequently over-rated (literally) to what they actually produce. The best panels might produce 90% of what the packaging says, and the most inconsistent may produce only 60% of what is advertised on the packaging. A good rule of thumb is to just anticipate that you will get 70% of the rating as listed on the box or in advertising.
10 watts per square foot might be a little on the “high efficient side” at around 20% light conversion efficiency under the most perfect conditions, such as a cool day and the sun hitting the panels at a direct angle, with no clouds or haze (or pollution) in the sky. (Not a very usual thing to count on), but still, Solar panels make lots of sense for many job situations.
I use 150 watts on top of my old motor home, which maintains 6kw of batteries to perform morning kitchen appliance operations (so the genset does not have to be fired up, as it makes lots of noise).
I use an 18″ by 22″, 36-watt panel to run the office equipment in the 05 Element I use in my business (with a 150 watt pure sine wave inverter).
So, the work of the energy-demand itself determines the practicalities of going solar, and your usage needs characteristics.
+4
May 7th, 2010 (4:32 pm)Rather than sit around on my can – and discuss how GM can build a big heavy truck that can get 24 mpg. ( the bit in the article where it states GM 2 mode trucks get 21-22 mpg is pure B.S. – everyone from Motor Trend to Car & Driver saw 16 – 17mpg tops ), and sell a hybrid Tahoe for $52,000,
I’d prefer to state I am not a GM fan boy.
According to Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, as of 2009 the word “fanboy” is: ”
Fanboy: a superfan of a comic or film genre, as in: He is a fanboy of all the original Batman comics.” It can also be used to describe big proponents or groupies of a technology by techies, of a company, product or genre of music, film, art…etc.
I’m very disappointed in Lyle as of late, because of the lack of reality OP/ED on gm-volt. Lyle has been sitting on the Bob Lutz “exit interview” for some time, partitioning it into several pieces. Nothing spectacular in terms of Volt news, but very interesting stuff – until yesterday. Yesterday’s portion of the Lutz interview was devastating. In it, he practically comes out and says Volt is dead. His words and examples are just plain cut-and-dry. No way is a 4 seat sedan with cramped seating in the rear going to sell 500,000 copies. It’s never been done. Volt’s technology may be far superior than Prius, but 4 seats limits it’s market to second-car homes, die hard environmentalists and greenies, forward-thinking singles and retirees. Practical sells, and if you build a MPV5, you won’t HAVE to build so many dinosaur 24mpg ( optimal condition ) 2nd gen 2 mode beasts. People who compare Volt to Camaro just plain don’t know cars, and buyer demographics. Period. A coupe Volt would be very nice – like a Converj without the price – it would sport the same seating and battery arrangement, yet we all know that car will not happen – Toyota’s Solara and Honda’s Accord Coupe have proven two door versions of front wheel drive midsize sedans don’t sell in large numbers.
GM, you want to make money? Build a Prius! PR-devastated Toyota is still selling Prius like sandbags in a flood. No kidding – with their 0% financing schemes Prius are popping up in every driveway. Here in Seattle I’ve seen SO MANY 2010 Prius with new-issue license stickers in the window it’s literally mind-boggling. If GM wants to compete – perhaps they over-reached with Volt,since it’s so expensive to make – and less practical for the consumer on the buying end – with it’s cost and 4 seats.
To all you -1 clickers, the Prius model has succeeded and continues to succeed even with Toyota’s image in the dumpster! Who can argue with that? The numbers speak too loudly. Re-read Lutz’s interview yesterday and there is only one conclusion you can make. Volt is dead, R.I.P.. Fanboy gm-volt posters still talked on and on about Volt gens 2, 3, and 4. Do they honestly believe GM will can Volt, but later come out with a stripped-down version? Plus, do you have five years to wait for something that may never happen?! It’s time to get real, take the kid gloves off and speak the truth. Go ahead, shoot me.
Down at the Ren Center, downtown Detroit, they’ve known they will not roll out Volts in any number to make them competitive for a long time. It’s PR PR PR. It’s trying to improve their image while doing more of the same same same.
As I said yesterday, nobody is going to change the world making 2 mode trucks that achieve
25 mpg.
Lyle, I’m encouraging you to come through. You set up this site for us all to help encourage GM – to see our enthusiasm, to listen to our concerns, and to do something different. To laud a new, amazing technology with the promise to change our world. Doesn’t the video daily of the Gulf oil spill turn your stomach? Don’t sending more troops over to the middle east, some to die – just to insure our free flow of oil….Doesn’t that make you want to hurl? Lyle, be more objective. GM gave you a Volt. Nearly nobody else on this site will ever get the privelage to own one. I won’t go so far as to say GM silenced any objectivity you may have by giving you one. But by now, you surely know Volts will come out in such a tiny tiny number as to be instant collectors items.
As a voice of reason here – I’m going to get numerous -1s with this post. Who cares!!!! I’d rather try to to implore all of us to be opinionated and not so timid to state the obvious.
I don’t look at this site as a “fanboy” site, but many others do. I myself would be a Volt fanboy if GM would come through and built MPV5, larger variations of Volt, and Volt itself so we all have a chance to go down to a dealer and purchase one. More and more each day we’re getting the picture that is never going to happen.
Lyle, while writing this a Michelin pop-up has made it past my filter and won’t go away. Ford, Toyota, and big name companies advertise here and you also profit from them. So please be less of a fan boy and more an advocate for all us regular guys and gals who just want GM to build Voltecs and not tease, please and B.S.
I’m not winning any fans here by telling it like it is. I really like Lyle, no doubt. I really like Bob Lutz.
I just think it’s time to get real.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME
May 7th, 2010 (4:37 pm)#118
Sounds like the range of BEVs, LOL.
May 7th, 2010 (4:46 pm)Same reason that Volt is no longer E85. There is very little CNG infrastructure out there (except Utah and Oklahoma and maybe Colorado) where it is practical for single truck owners.
Now fleets, that’s a different story. What I really don’t get is why there aren’t a bunch of fleet users switching to CNG fleets.
May 7th, 2010 (4:49 pm)#117
If the Volt is dead, GM is dead, IMHO.
I’ve said it from day 1. If the Prius was a GM product, I would be driving one today. All I ever wanted them to do was build a Prius fighter. Leapfrog? Fine if it works but, if over reaching causes delays and minuscule production, let’s think again. KISS.
Well FWIW, I gave you a +1 for telling it like it is. Look quick, before it disappears, LOL. The only difference is that I don’t like Bob Lutz. He has been a lot more of a problem than a solution for a long, long time, IMHO.
May 7th, 2010 (4:49 pm)Post Script to my #116.
nasaman is right that there still would not be enough power to really help the traction battery any significant amount. But there is some merit to making a fan exhaust a build up of radiant direct sunlight heat to, say, keep a cabin at 105 degrees instead of it building up to 145 degrees un-exhausted.
Although keeping the driver’s seat warm might actually work if the solar panel was oriented toward the sun when it would be time for the driver to get into the car. I would guess each seat might use something like 25 watts max. Electric blankets use about 70 watts, the last time I checked.
But software programming could trigger the preheating of the seat with a very tiny portion of the Volt pack energy for just before you get into it with your cellphone command. Otherwise, our Volts could cost a lot more with a custom solar panel, (not a happy thing after all), and, more to insure, especially if there was a hailstorm and the panel was damaged.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (4:53 pm)#117
Oops, too late, LMAO. Hang in there Jimbo. Plenty of inconvenient truth tellers have gotten a lot worse than a few “-1s”, hehehe.
+3
May 7th, 2010 (5:13 pm)Sh|t, no biggie man. Neither am I. I never have.
I’m a “Get F#@$ off of OPEC Juice” fan boy.
May 7th, 2010 (5:20 pm)I wonder how big an ICE it would take to tow 6000lbs with a Voltec truck.. probably not too big if the trailer was somewhat aerodynamic.
May 7th, 2010 (5:20 pm)Haa! You’re likely right on that.
It seems that some companies have a “greater than 50% of what we promised, and, that is the majority of the promise, so, we’re OK”. (not!).
I like that GM is very careful in not doing this. While the introduction of an entirely new set of technologies is awesome, there has been strenuous care in GM’s not over promising. The “role strain” however, is that when some of us who have had the wonderful opportunity to drive the Volt explain it’s, well, heavenly experience, those explanations can cause an occasional frustration of the patient members of this site-community. (Which we should anticipate and acknowledge and be understanding of.)
FWIW, I personally don’t expect to be able to purchase a Volt for up to 18 months from now, because of the extreme purgatory heat here in Texas. It already has hit 100 degrees in some areas of Texas already. Therefore, I have really appreciated being able to drive it, so that I can be content with just that one experience for possibly quite a while (another indication of how astonishing it is). I really am just glad many others may be able to buy it starting in late October.
May 7th, 2010 (5:26 pm)Thanks brother! That is the only post I have ever sent Lyle in an email. I really admire the guy. He does a spectacular job on this website. Maybe too spectacular. GM took notice, and gave him a Volt. That there may have ended all objectivity we may ever read here forevermore. Sorry to say.
Prius has alot of flaws. Not to mention their horrid headlight debacle. It’s NIMH batteries and small pack will always limit it, no matter how many solar panels and aero underbodies Toyota throws at it – it’s reached it’s limits at around 50-60mpg. Hey, I’ll take 50 mpg rather than having to buy a second car ( Leaf, iMiev ) to get to work in. Most Americans, Canadians and Europeans agree-we can budget for one car, and possibly a truck or used second vehicle. The tech model for Volt is “gee whiz”. Engineers can come here, debate, pontificate and wish for years and years….
Still, Prius is making a boatload of money. It’s still the balance of A) A hybrid that does not look like other models. B) A car at Prius’ pricepoint (with minimal or no government subsidy) that can carry 5 with fold-down seat storage for Costco, Sam’s Club and Home Depot with a reliable 40-50 em-pee-geez. C) Add a plug and lithium to a Prius-type vehicle and sales will be strong but still balance on price. D) Toyota can easily make a Prius-branded MPV/Crossover at 40mpg and sell them like Big Macs.
I don’t have but some college under my belt. I’m not an engineer. I’m not even an accountant or marketing exec. I have a whole lot of street smarts in and out of the auto industry. When GM gave Lyle a Volt – it was a very inexpensive way for them to insure gm-volt.com slanted towards a GM-promo site rather than a truly objective forum.
My title ideas for post #117 were:
THE AUDACITY OF HOPE – In The Face Of Plain Facts
-or-
AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH re: THE AUDACITY OF HOPE
RECHARGE! James
May 7th, 2010 (5:34 pm)Did GM give Lyle a Volt (to test drive)?
If so, then I’ve been skimming too fast and missing half the fun around here.
(Downside of long, fun, workdays.)
May 7th, 2010 (5:39 pm)-1
May 7th, 2010 (6:01 pm)Rather than waist my time responding to Mr. Budda’s BS, I’ll focus on the positive here in one word that I haven’t seen mentioned in this whole pick-up oriented thread:
MAHINDRA
/see that Tag? — another positive post! Every day, in every way, I’m getting better and better.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (6:07 pm)So Sorry (and not to sound snarky)
But you’re wrong about that Mr., Engineer. While mechanically the DOD system is similar the software is different. ( I suspect you’ve never driven one, but just like talking like you do)
A couple of my other trucks GM have DOD as well. But on the highway or anytime above 40-50mph the V4 mode can barely hold speed except for on the very flat-level (or down hill grade) and absolutely no cross/head wind. So they switch from V8 to V4 occasionally but switch back and forth constantly. On the 2-mode pickups it goes directly to V4 mode and augments your power requirements with varying degrees of electric motor power. So it’s in V4 mode the majority of the time and only switches to V8 on occasion or after a defined period of time and the charge of the battery reaches some defined point.
So if you’re some big time engineer (and I’m just Joe Dirt) perhaps you can explain to me exactly how on a Prius at a steady 60mph the electrical assist is exactly ZERO but on a 2-mode GM they are able to keep the hybrid powered electric motors “helping” the gas engine (in V4 mode) At least I know the magic is in the transmission itself and it really has less to do with the size of the battery.
Also, the 2-mode hybrid city busses around here are NOT serial but nearly the exact same Allison designed transmission as my hybrid trucks.
LB.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (6:09 pm)Hi Dan,
For all his hard work and dedication in creating gm-volt.com, persisting daily in running down interviews and writing daily pieces – creating relationships at GM and inspiring a site full of intelligent posters who actively participate, GM promised Lyle Dennis one of the first production Volts off the line. Perhaps you missed it in one of the daily articles awhile back.
He has test driven a Volt – the video is on YouTube. I thought everyone knew this.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME
May 7th, 2010 (6:14 pm)Layoff Like_budda. I believe him 100%. I have family of 5, have a a Ford Expedition and Ford Escape Hybrid. I would buy a Yukon Hybrid in a heart beat but it is out of my price range. My dream senario – Yukon Hybrid and Volt in my driveway.
I need the Expedition as I’m carting hockey gear and kids all the time. I’m a city dweller and would really benefit if it was a hybrid. I can say we try to drive the Escape Hybrid as much as possible (it gets 6-7 L/100km all the time) and limit our use of the Expedition. Maybe I will have to forgo the Volt and buy the Yukon Hybrid as soon as I’m done paying off the Escape – I hope not though.
Keep up the good work GM!
May 7th, 2010 (6:14 pm)lol…
I saw that on ABG. Doesn’t it look like the old skool version of when Toyota first brought out a small pickup?
http://www.velocityjournal.com/images/stk/1977/ty1977truck01.jpg
May 7th, 2010 (6:21 pm)Yeah, it’s pretty “squared off”.
ABG says they should FINALLY be getting their paper work cleared and into the showrooms in about 90 days. I’m pretty anxious to see the mpg ratings. If they can get better than 23city/30hwy and the base price is really $22,000 then I think they’re going to see a LOT of interest. The towing/hauling specs look pretty good.
I think this right sized diesel pickup has the capability of forcing a response from the big three (kind of like the prius did, . . . maybe).
/I’ll have to see it in person to know for sure, but it looks like it fits the F-100 sizing that has been mostly absent for many years.
-1
May 7th, 2010 (6:33 pm)I’m trailer park maggot, nice to meet you.
My swag is that’s “By Design”. Electrical boos is most effective when the ICE is at its least efficient. When at 60mph, ICE is at it’s most efficient therefore needs little to no assist.
If i’m wrong, please anybody correct me.
Here’s my SWAG, You mentioned also that it kicks in the rest of the cylinders to “Charge” the batts. Right? I don’t think there’s much advantage to shutting off cylinders then use electrons to augment power, then fire up the cylinders to charge the batt pack then shut them back off and use electrons. There’s too much “Conversion Loss”. One would think with your business in Landscaping it’s a lot of city/suburb driving. That’s where any electrical boost is most effective. For highway driving, it just doesn’t make sense to go through so much conversion loss to keep charging the batts.
But that’s just me, your friendly neighborhood trailer park maggot.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (6:34 pm)The Prius doesn’t have as much worry about power fade, so they just stuck with a little tiny engine. If it wasn’t for the electric assist, it would bog down to a slow speed at every hill because of the tiny engine. An equivalent size and weight car in non-hybrid form would have a much bigger engine.
In the case of the pickups, the hybrid helps keep the extra cylinders off more than they would without the hybrid. But because of the little battery they still have the extra cylinders.
What you don’t seem to understand and I will try one more time is that if the battery was bigger, those cylinders could be removed from the vehicle altogether and then you would get even better fuel mileage than it does now.
But that would add another 10 grand to the price.
Then your transit district is cheap.
You are correct, the Allison system is just like the smaller hybrid vehicles. Those buses still get quite a bit of power from the diesel engine. It improves the fuel efficiency by about 25%.
BAE Systems transmissions’ are a series hybrid. The engine is MUCH smaller than the ones used with the Allison system because they make up for it by drawing much more power from the battery. They improve efficiency by 50%, at a greater initial cost.
+2
May 7th, 2010 (6:36 pm)I’ve only read about the first 40 posts, but generally people have bemoaned the huge price difference. I remember on this site a year or two ago there was a statement from GM about this. They acknowledged the complaints and facts presented by bloggers today and stated that, yes the expense was much higher and including profit from all the high-end extras was the only way to cover costs. At that time they said that the only way to get costs down was to dramatically increase production and even suggested the possibility of making it standard equipment.
I think to-day’s announcement is good news. GM is committing to high volume production, so they must be planning on drastically reducing the price. With reduced price it will make it practical to offer in all models.
On the advertising front, I do not even know what two-mode means. Never seen a technical explanation. I believe it is GM’s high end hybrid with similar characteristics to the Pirius. I think most people are more familiar with the extremely minimalist “large alternator” variety and do not know the difference vs two-mode. GM needs to explain why the two-mode is better. It also has to show that payback is less than 5 years, preferably less than 3 years.
-1
May 7th, 2010 (6:38 pm)Nice pic , I was reading some other site on sales chart of Chevrolet Tahoe / Suburban. Looks they very really big sellers and Chevy never put a Druamax engine to them as gas prices went up.
Lot of takers still gas come to $1/gallon or alternative technologies.
May be this area may be the best for a Range extender hybrid.
Sale charts from another site :
May 7th, 2010 (6:42 pm)Maybe the plan is just make them available, and people who want them, will find them. As far as price, I hope it’s not going to be, if you have to ask, it’s probably too expensive. With only 8000 produced, anything is possible.
-1
May 7th, 2010 (6:47 pm)Well, since you put it that way, all the high up mucky mucks and hollywierd folks will scoop them up before anyone could test drive one.
So to all of us on the list…….GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!
-1
May 7th, 2010 (6:51 pm)There’s several references out there. Read for too long and you’ll just go cross-eyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hybrid_Cooperation
My take on the two mode vs Toyota’s HSD:
The two mode is a big, heavy, complicated and expensive system. It works pretty well and returns a somewhat modest increase in mpg. It’s ok in applications that can abosorb the big price and complication (like a bus, where 15% increase in fuel economy can add up to some bucks pretty quick) but just doesn’t seem to scale down that well.
The HSD is a much much simpler system. So far we haven’t seen it shown to be that capable of towing (advantage two-mode), but I think it’s possible that you could tow with HSD if a version was designed for that.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (6:53 pm)Yes I knew that, but I misread your post as I had thought you knew something new that no-one else knew. (grin.)
The really healthy thing about this internet, (internet klutz that I am), is that everyone is given an equal chance to build a business, dependent upon their abilities as well as hard work.
Conventional TV media is all tied up with all manner of financial obligations to advertisers, and, there are no opportunities for new kinds of media or content to be introduced into it, excepting for PBS.
There used to be something called “Earned Media”, which, if a person or business did some really good things for society in general, then, a free media could go and cover the story for the public. Though this has not been the case for the last 10 years especially.
This internet gives many more people the ability to make new kinds of businesses that they could never could otherwise even have a smidgen of a chance to otherwise build.
One day a few months back, Tag mentioned that I was well suited for my job.
That is because I relentlessly knocked on the doors of auto repair shops starting five years ago until I started getting small four-hour contracts for seminars. I built this up entirely on my own with no business models, and no other help, because I knew my content was really needed for their work, even though many shop owners needed to see my determination over the years, and finally began to open up and listen to what I had to offer.
Lyle has done exactly the same thing. However, he has done exactly the same thing for all of us here in astonishing ways that have made an historical difference along with the meaningful content of posters here. His relentless work in the background has never been really quantifiable by most casual readers who visit here, and certainly, not by conventional media.
For many, the journey is not *just* as important as the destination, it is *usually* more important. The quality of how something is done is more important, since advancement is never “done” due to the ever-changing of “everything” in the universe.
The only way that that has been made possible for me to contribute toward the goals of Volt, is by Lyle’s work. This would never have happened anywhere else. So, honest reactions are respected as honest reactions. Many are undoing the “get it now” syndrome.
The Volt is so far ahead of all other OEM offerings, the wait is entirely worth it.
And, from my perspective, this journey itself is the equal treasure as it has been Lyle’s daily gift to us all down through all these years.
We ought savor every live second of it, however everyone expresses it, this is history.
It will never be repeated nor ever duplicated.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (6:59 pm)I think anybody who could say they just went six months and only bought 3 gallons of gas, would easily make the prime time nightly news. If they report no problems, the dealers better have some in stock.
May 7th, 2010 (7:17 pm)#129
Yeah, wait for it.
May 7th, 2010 (7:24 pm)#140
Yeah, I’ve kind of resigned myself to it. Once I said that, if you build them, they will come. Now I’m thinking:
If you do not build them, they will not come.
May 7th, 2010 (7:34 pm)I guess I was thinking about situations like our friend’s landscaping business. That’s not a fleet in my mind but three or four or five trucks. Since you can create a filling stations from any natural gas line — I’ve got a couple of friends who have home filling stations — you’d think it wouldn’t be a big deal.
But yes you’re right. When you start going down the UPS or FedEx road you’re talking about a lot of trucks, all of which don’t travel more than a hundred or so miles a day. You’d think the savings would be substantial enough to entice them into enticing GM or Ford to manufacture the things. Plus engines running on CNG are very clean burning, so you also get the benefits of reduced maintenance.
Places with a lot of natural gas, such as Texas, should be more interested than they seem to be.
-1
May 7th, 2010 (7:37 pm)There is a whole lot of it depends going on there.
I assume you mean a battery big enough to climb any mountain range without experiencing power fade. Then the question is “how fast?”
As a SWAG, I’d say something like 150-175 HP would make a decent truck. I have a F350 DRW pickup with a camper. I’ve have a dyno map from a nearly identical truck, and comparing RPM and boost I’ve determined that 70MPH is just over 100HP.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (7:42 pm)I have a sales theory. Someone please hear me out.
We have all heard that trucks and SUVs are where GM makes most all their money. By that logic, in comparison with sales numbers, the profit margin on those vehicles is much larger. It stands to reason, right? Well, I contend that GM should not include the relatively small hybrid premium on top of their profit margin, but within it. This will boost sales, and allow the difference to be earned back with those increased sales. No? Think about it: you’re going to buy an SUV. You can have a foggler for the base price or pay more to save some gas with a hybrid, but not save the difference even in the long term by doing so. Which would you choose? (Well, readers on here may not always choose economics, but let’s make a business case, shall we??). However, if you can save gas and therefore money, but the price is similar, you are more likely to do so. Granted, GM won’t make as much profit, but I guarantee that some profit will be had, and with greater numbers greater profits over time.
Are GM people still reading everything on this site like they used to? Hello??
+3
May 7th, 2010 (10:04 pm)Thanks for the link. I should have thought to go to Wikipedia, I found no information on the GM web site which is where I think people should be able to find it.
Suddenly all this starts to become clear. Yes the 2-mode has the same basic capability as the Pirius but is at least twice as complicated. It is a combination 4-speed automatic transmission with 2 electric motor/generators and various clutches and planetary gears to allow almost every connection arrangement possible. That is the electric motors can be connected 1 each to the ICE and drive wheels, both to the drive wheels, and both to both ICE and drive wheels. This plus the 4 speeds gives a bewildering array of possible combinations. It has to be more expensive than the simple Toyota system, but definitely has some advantages. One motor can be used as the starting motor for the ICE while the other is driving the wheels. One or both can be used to give the infinitely variable transmission characteristics. Both motors are used for re-gen.
I now understand better how the Volt works and much of the previous paragraph applies. One motor can be connected to the ICE as a generator or starter, the other motor drives the wheels. Disconnecting the ICE, both motors would be coupled together during re-gen or sport mode. I will go out on a limb here and bet you cannot have sport mode and ICE generating at the same time. In sport mode both motors would be wired in parallel, in re-gen mode both motors would be wired in series. This last point is brilliant as the re-gen will work much better and down to half normal minimum speed. More efficient re-gen means less wear on brakes and more momentum recovery. BTW this re-gen mode also applies to the 2-mode hybrid.
Since there is so much commonality between the Volt and the 2-mode, this new manufacturing capability will mean the costs are spread across both products, and help drive cost down.
This also means that when you add plug-in batteries to the 2-mode you have Voltec! The differences are almost zero. But the voltec system does not have enough power for a big vehicle so it has to have the extra assistance of the ICE driving the wheels.
My conclusion is that this whole strategy is brilliant. Both complement each other. And yes the 2-mode is complicated, but with sufficiently high production numbers almost anything can be made cheaply.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (10:07 pm)Well I wouldnt say my local transit system is “cheap” son. Actually I would actually say they are forward thinking and innovative, as after testing numerous models of the available hybrid transit solutions (not sure if the BAE was one of them) they have purchased a fresh fleet of 24 Allison 2-mode hybrid busses built right here in the USA. (unlike the BAE which is a British company) Are there ANY BAE busses in North America even??
LB.
May 7th, 2010 (10:15 pm)Considering their low volume, why were these trucks green-lighted;
-For the profits they generate,
-For the overall good they do,
-For the wider range of options chosen by a few buyers,
-For the potential green effect the bestowed on GM?
nasaman,” Interesting how ten people can post that the vehicle makes no business sense without even presenting the numbers.”
Leave it to an engineer to put some numbers to the issue instead of a lot of blah, blah, blah.
You are talking about buyers looking for the absolute top-line truck. Will these buyers be primarily concerned about saving a couple bucks in gas? Will these buyers keep a top-line vehicle purchased new…for eight to ten years? I would tend to believe that getting better mileage and earth friendliness are just one more line checked on the feature list, and a newer vehicle will be purchased in a few short years. It’s $50,000.00 passenger truck!! Saving $800 a year in gas? The interest payments alone could be 4 times that, the first year!
+2
May 7th, 2010 (10:20 pm)I think this is their plan.
-3
May 7th, 2010 (10:48 pm)It’s physics…
When you crack a barrel of oil you only get so much diesel and so much gasoline. Way back long ago in a smokey room someone flipped a coin and heads Europe gets diesel and US gets gasoline. If both continents were to use the same type of fuel we would quickly run out of one and have too much of the other.
As for GM I know this board loves hybrids, but the customers have voted with their wallets. No one wants a full sized truck hybrid, at least not the way GM is selling them. Why should GM be congratulated for continuing to make vehicles no one wants? That’s what got them into bankruptcy in the first place. The Two mode hybrid Escalade should disappear into history with the Edsel.
-1
May 7th, 2010 (11:01 pm)They are built here. BAE Systems manufactures the components in Minnesota. BAE Systems does not produce buses.
The buses are made by quite a few different companies. AFAIK, any bus used in NA is built in the US or Canada.
From the company’s website
May 7th, 2010 (11:10 pm)The output is quite capable of being considerably shifted into either if needed. Only a small part of crude is gasoline or diesel. The portions of crude that are gasoline or diesel are simply distilled out. This part is usually under 20%.
The bulk of the rest is heavy oil. This heavy oil is cracked into lighter fuels. They can crack it to gasoline or diesel.
Refineries in Europe are often run at over 80% diesel and the ones here are run at over 70% gasoline.
+1
May 7th, 2010 (11:47 pm)I think it was the 80s when Detroit marketed diesels for cars. It was a flop. One reason is that they were not as refined as they are now, so were noisy and low powered. Secondly the increased demand for diesel fuel drove the price of diesel fuel up to the same as gasoline. There was no advantage in having lower power and no savings. I think the primary reason lately has been that until the last couple of years, it was not possible to make a diesel meet NA’s more stringent pollution requirements. I know Volkswagen has paid millions of dollars in fines to be able to sell diesels in California, they just added it to the cost of business.
+7
May 8th, 2010 (12:45 am)I build the two mode hybirds, so let me share some insight on what’s really going on with these vehicles. The machines are COMPLETELY different from a standard truck/tahoe. GM never expected to make money on this first generation. They priced the vehicles so the buyers have to really want them. They want to keep the volume low for now.Why, you ask? For lack of a better description, they are sort of beta release. Before you guys get all snarky, how many of you would have payed big time to get a Volt last year before it was completely refined. Most of the sub-systems are electric. Power steering, air conditioning compressor, etc.. in fact the only thing left on the serpentine belt is the water pump. The integration of all these new systems is very complex. GM needs lots of long term data from dedicated buyers to move to the next level. The amount of engineering required to convert large vehices to electric challenging, but yields the most fruit. The lessons learned here will enable GM to offer eyepopping fuel milage at a reasonable cost for the next generation without any unexpected failures. In five years, the competitors will still be getting 15mpg while GM’s fleet will be in the high twenties. Doing your homework is hard, but making an A on the exam is always a great feeling.
-4
May 8th, 2010 (1:03 am)GM launched the 2 modes back in what? — 2005?? That’s one hell of a beta release.
/ good luck on your exam
+3
May 8th, 2010 (1:09 am)Shows what you know. (another Internet educated dolt)
2008 was their first model year on the 2-mode Tahoe / Yukon then 2009 for the Escalade and pickups.
Do your research before you spout off!
YOU FAIL!!
LB.
-4
May 8th, 2010 (1:25 am)Nice,
Being your up so late anyway, why don’t you research your mileage log and fuel receipts and post them up here so we can share in the joy of 2-mode real world 26 mpg? hmmmmm?
+1
May 8th, 2010 (1:38 am)Not so late on Westside…
But I’ve got nothing to prove to internet educated “kidiots” such as yourself, (nor does GM as the 2-mode technology is so obviously way beyond your level of comprehension)
Now go oil the chain on your bike before mom calls you to head out on your paper-route
.LB
May 8th, 2010 (3:29 am)If it were only $5K, GM would see a lot more demand. I don’t know about sales because they would have to make them and GM has never seemed that interested in actually selling their hybrids.
To your point of recouping the extra expense. I’ve seen this mentioned often by many people and numerous times by you. I understand the words but not the rational. At least, not by rational and knowledgable people such as yourself. Payback for disposable or non-resellable items means one thing but for a slowly (relatively slowly anyway) depreciating asset such as a vehicle this does not mean the same thing. Only if the extra expense was immediately lost would it all need to be recouped in such short timeframe. Since much of the extra cost is still valued in the asset, the full differential is irrelevent. The financial concern should be:
Am I recovering the difference in depreciation and the added cost burden?
Of course I believe in a whole host of non dollars and sense issues with saving gas too, including the insurance against gas price spikes. Look at in this more accurate financial light, the Prius has been a good financial choice as compared to comparable ICE vehicles since gen 2 was introduced. These vehicles have held their value, so the differential to save in gas cost is not that large and does not approach the full premium untill about 10 years or more.
+1
May 8th, 2010 (3:49 am)So true. Look inside an automotive ICE and all it’s ancillary attached systems. It is pretty friggin complicated, yet doesn’t cost that much in volume.
+1
May 8th, 2010 (4:23 am)Are you sure it’s 1W/sq ft. I thought it was more like ~10W/sq ft or 1kw for 100sq ft at full rating.
+1
May 8th, 2010 (6:31 am)CORRECTION TO MY POST #98:
My apologies, guys! You’re both absolutely right that ~10W/sq ft is the correct number. In my post #98, the conclusion remains the same, however (even 300W isn’t enough power to heat or cool the Volt’s battery). But I’d still like GM to offer a solar panel option for the Volt’s roof, as Toyota does for the Prius, for an exhaust fan to keep the interior from becoming an oven.
May 8th, 2010 (7:24 am)So, now it is X10 greater power, so based on your original post, 300W should be sufficient to provide cooling for the battery.
If the battery is well insulated, the amount of power to keep it cool from external ambient should be small. The self generated heat would require more power, but now your running the vehicle and could use either the battery itself or the generator when running in CS mode.
300 watt/hr is fairly useful, but this assumes full sun and a fairly large area of cells. Likely, on average you get 150-200 w/hr on a partly sunny day.
May 8th, 2010 (7:24 am)I’m certainly “cool” with that (as long as I don’t have to buy/insure that roof option here in the “hail alley” part of the country, lol), but didn’t Toyota price that at $4000 more for that roof option?
And, didn’t someone say that they used that power to circulate air *only internally* without exhausting it? (That would make even flowing and well-distributed *high temperature latent heating for all interior surfaces*, and, actually cause the *increasing* of the overall cool down time if the interior materials did not have low temperature inertia, if it went that way.)
If you’re up in the cool/cold North, and the air is clear, and you have the extra bucks, and *enough people* really really really want solar, then *maybe* there might be some option logic to it there, but, it sure could have the MSRP increasingly unachievable for many or most of the rest of us, as fascinating as solar is.
May 8th, 2010 (8:09 am)The roof of the Volt (when I drove it) seemed to be something like about 20 square feet at most, and, the curvature would suggest that, if random chance per the orientation of it to the sun being not direct, then you might get about 50 consistent watts from that amount of area. An efficient exhausting of air, or the efficient maintenance of heating for the seat(s) could be accomplished with 50 watts, but, if it is true that Toyota has a price of $4,000 for their panel, well, that sure is a lot of money for 50 watts to be useful for seat heating that could otherwise be programmable for five minutes before you need to drive. As well, you could possibly do lots of other things with programming to accomplish the same things without that sort of huge cost and insurance risk potential.
Solar power has very highly specific practicalities that are not always as easily well-placed even for fixed orientations to the sun.
While we hear that cost per watt is decreasing, that, unfortunately, doesn’t practically apply to the extreme customization suggestion of placing solar into moving applications requiring low CD.
The return on investment for the 36 watt panel I placed on the top of the luggage rack on my Element (plus the inverter and battery/wiring) has been returned many times over in the 5 years it has been there, due to the 2 tasks I needed to perform in printing out color copies of waveform graphs of diagnostics I teach in shop techs, and, keeping my lunch cool in a thermoelectric cooler for four hours each morning.
* (Thermoelectric coolers drive automotive computers crazy due to their harmonics interference, so thus a dedicated solar power supply).
But OTOH, in any case, I’m sure GM knows what will and will not be economically feasible for whichever trim levels if enough people wants to buy. The great thing about a Volt is that you can have about ten different sorts of trim levels going from a very nice basically-functional base model for around 34k MSRP (hopefully), to a fully decked out prestige model for 55k net of incentives and rebates on the top end. Why the heck not?
GM had 10 different engine and tranny combo’s in the 60′s didn’t they?
/…off to work. have a great day everyone!)
+2
May 8th, 2010 (8:42 am)I live in Ottawa. We have over two hundred hybrid buses built by http://www.orionbus.com/orion that use BAE Systems HybriDrive® Propulsion System.
I think New Flyer also uses and builds buses with BAE HybriDrive® Propulsion System.
I can tell you these buses are much quieter than regular buses which is nice. They are a pleasure to ride on.
I prefer Vancouver busses however which are fully electric and run off overheard wires. It really makes a big differnce as it is very quiet in downtown Vancouver and there is no choking diesel fumes.
+5
May 8th, 2010 (10:32 am)It is too bad I was not able to type this up yesterday, as I would especially like GM types to read this. I have now perused 169 comments and see that indeed no one has my stated experiences. I bought a 2008 Tahoe Hybrid when they first became available (special order on dealer lot in 6/08). At that time, sitting in my driveway, were also a 2008 Toyota Prius and a 2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid (which replaced a 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid that I sold). One of our biggest problems in America is that we are given the privilege to make so many bad decisions just because we feel that we have a right to. As 200,000+ gallons of oil hemorrhage into the Gulf every day, it makes me nauseous that we can even have discussions about the merits of choosing to not buy a hybrid because we can’t do the math to justify it. Oil is a toxic addiction that we must dump as soon as we can, and if we can get rid of, let’s say, 1/4 of it RIGHT NOW, than let’s do it. While some have discussed CNG, it is clear that hydro fracking destroys our underground drinking water. Of course, we had our worst coal mine disaster in 40 years just a few weeks ago. Fossil fuels are killing us and it continues to become clear that man will maintain stupidity if his wallet is the only thing that does the thinking.
After the Arabs screwed us all over in 1973, the Danish got smart enough to embrace wind and currently reap the rewards of this clean technology spread throughout their land. The French figured out how to do nuclear right decades ago. They reprocess their waste and have only a laughable amount to dispose of. We could have learned from them, but our regulatory (and court) systems will prevent any new nuclear power plants from showing up within a decade. Now the Germans have, in under a decade, made solar a way of life. Will we learn from them? Probably not.
I type this as new foam insulation gets installed in our office attic. We have made many changes in our personal and business lives. The biggest to date was the 13 KW of solar PV panels now on the office roof. After 3 months, the utility finally put in the (required) bi-directional meter and we got our first bill two days ago. You know how screwed up our American system is? I actually gave the utility MORE electricity than I consumed and still had a $102 bill! (At my home, this would have cost me just $7- from the SAME utility company) It is criminal and it arises from something called ‘Demand’ billing. The concept itself takes too much time to extrapolate on here. I mention it because people who read this blog need to become activists in some regard. You cannot sit here and debate whether the hybrid version pays for itself. If you continue to default to your wallet, our species is doomed. I live in FL and appreciate the grim cloud that this oil spill represents for the ENTIRE US EAST COAST (if the oil makes it into the loop current).
Now, back to the car issue. I am also no Haite Ashbury lunatic who thinks we can revert to some agrarian way of life and forget that life expectancy for people who used to live under those conditions was half of what it is now. We have progressed to this point with our brains and it is our brains that can win this (again, not if our wallets are doing the thinking). My Tahoe Hybrid 4WD is a well made vehicle that can cruise along at 30 MPH under nothing but electricity (for a mile or more). I reliably get 23-26 MPG from it under all conditions- which is better than most conventional sedans can achieve around town. While my Prius and Highlander Hybrid get better gas mileage, Toyota tells me I can’t take them off road. GM fills a niche that others have ignored. I laud them for committing to the long haul, even though the average free market American won’t think that way at the moment.
Does anyone remember when air bags were OPTIONAL? Were catalytic converters ever OPTIONAL? Imagine how much oil we could dump if hybrid technology was incorporated on a vast scale. For EVERY large SUV and truck out there, think in reverse terms- they are all wasting several miles for each and every gallon they burn. Large price differentials would greatly evaporate if this technology was required. And yes, there is no reason that we couldn’t do this with diesel for the ICE.
I anxiously await the Volt. In fact, I told my Toyota salesman YEARS AGO that I would not buy another vehicle until I could plug it in. Toyota has been arrogant with respect to their hybrid market share and complacently allowed real electrical accomplishments to slip through their corporate grasp. I sincerely hope that the Volt (and similar electrics) change fundamental thinking in this country with just free market buying. However, the silence I have encountered with respect to my “Public Service” Commission (an oxymoron, if ever there was one) regarding the demand billing issue tells me that our laws need real overhauling. The early 70s saw seismic environmental overhauls because powerful, and smug, politicians were booted from office for their complacency. Those who remained in office probably still couldn’t care less about the planet, but they did want to keep their jobs. It is time for you Volt enthusiasts to do your homework and start DOING things, not just complaining in blogs. The technology in the Volt will get here faster and be cheaper for all of us if it is MANDATED to be in vehicles. I plan on benefiting from my electric propulsion with every minute I drive; it is unlikely that I, personally, will ever benefit from my airbags. But who would buy a car without airbags anymore?
GM, please keep a commitment to your large vehicle hybrid technology- and all other forms of technology- that can help rescue us from ourselves.
May 8th, 2010 (11:11 am)#168
I’m sure that someone will correct me if I’m wrong, LOL, but my recollection is that the Toyota solar panel is packaged with some sort of top end options package, and the whole thing costs $4K extra.
May 8th, 2010 (5:02 pm)Solar is a clean renewable energy source to be sure. But the math does not support a roof top panel of any usefulness.
What really needs to happen is we cover all the vacant land in the world with solar panels and store the energy in all the discarded Volt batteries for peak use. The oil spill in the Gulf should move us further away from oil, but there has to be a viable alternative.
Advocating car roof top solar detracts from the argument because it’s not viable for much usefulness.
May 9th, 2010 (5:07 am)How about 50 MPG or higher that would be worth it wouldn’t you all agree? Plus I like the plug in idea they need to start doing that plus they should build smaller cars and trucks so they can get to these estimated MPG. Plus don’t you think they should also make them more aerodynamic so they produce less drag as well.
+1
May 9th, 2010 (7:15 am)Right — but if I’m interested in efficiency, my first step is going to be to downsize as far as my needs will allow, THEN I start looking for fuel-saving technologies.
The ginormous 2-mode hybrids put the cart before the horse and assume that I need/want/might-possibly-be-interested in a vehicle that is way-way-way too big for my needs, and 2-3 times my budget.