This week in Dudenhofen Germany, Opel gave assurances that the Ampera was “on track” for production in the fall of 2011, hinted at pricing, and once again opened the door to a Europe-based production facility for the vehicle in the short term.
Stateside, the very first pre-production Ampera came to life as it rolled off the line in Warren, Michigan on Friday April 23rd. Andrew Farrah, who is also Vehicle Chief Engineer for the Ampera, marked the occasion by also saying, “We’re right on target for producing the Ampera for European markets later next year.”
The Ampera is the sister car to the Chevy Volt for Europe, and therefore it will only travel in kilometers; it has a range of “up to” 60 of them on electric power, and over 500 with the aid of a small gas engine once the 16 kWh battery is depleted.
At some point during the press junket nefarious ‘company sources’ reared their ugly head again and said the Ampera will likely cost about €40,000…or as we are fond of expressing prices here at GM-Volt, $53,000 in US dollars.
To be fair you have to allow for a number of factors to get a realistic translation of what a car priced in Europe would likely sell for on US shores. (VAT allowance, EUR/USD pegging, source of supply/labor, etc)
I won’t go through that calculation specifically – it would be needless long, and the end result would be several readers gouging their eyes out and submitting claims to our legal department for damages, but by my estimation 40,000 Euros on a Ampera works out to around a $34,000-$36,000 price point in the US.
Nick Reilly, who is Opel’s CEO, also mentioned this week that while the Ampera will be built in the US and imported into Europe, GM still plans on European production at some point.
In a statement to a German weekly (WirtschaftsWoche) he said, “The first Amperas will come from the USA next year, but it is our aim to build the car in Europe as soon as possible. We have not yet decided where that will be.”
It is interesting that the focus is on the where it will be built and not the when, previously when a Magna-GM deal was in the works for Opel, the notion of a European made Ampera was put almost on permanent hiatus, with our own sources at GM-Volt.com predicting that Ampera production in the near term to be “minimal.”
Both England (Ellesmere Port) and Germany (Bochum) have expressed an interest in producing the Ampera at their factories, and have bid up GM in a effort to green light production in their countries. I would think that the statement from Mr. Reilly signifies a not-so-open solicitation for the two regions to come back to the table with refreshed incentives, and if they are good enough, Opel will make a decision to build.
Given the current state of GM’s relationship with Germany (and its laborers) after the Magna deal fell through…and Germany’s own pre-election struggles coming to terms with the bailing out Greece (and potentially a good portion of the Eurozone), I think this is a case of Opel seeing how much support they can ring up from England with this project. /the dream of a European made Ampera lives on
May 1st, 2010 (9:54 am)Thanks statik. Beautiful car — wish it was for sale here in the USA.
May 1st, 2010 (9:55 am)Ampera…. Volt…… either one will work for me… So it is metric…. Canadians will love it…
Coming from Central Alberta Canada….. I will take the first one to get here… Volt ? 2013 / 2014
Ampera Not available… Volt Mini Van..? probably never ….
Let’s just the Volt into high production !
+4
May 1st, 2010 (9:58 am)“…and therefore it will only travel in kilometers.” Yes, and my cat only speaks English
May 1st, 2010 (10:01 am)That’s the import car I would like to buy. It should be legal to sell anywhere, why not here? Oh, it’s made in the US. Well, I could get over that.
+9
May 1st, 2010 (10:06 am)Shoot. It’d be perfect for the USA, if it didn’t only go kilometers….
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 1st, 2010 (10:10 am)All you do is multiply by .6 to get a quick conversion. ie: 100 kph = 6×10=60mph, 50kph = 5×6=30mph, divide by 10 first, and it’s easy.
+24
May 1st, 2010 (10:13 am)If Statik is right about the price point in his post, and he is usually right on the money, so to speak, GM is going to have a huge, mind boggling hit on their hands. $35,000 less $7500? That is only a little more than I spent on my freakin’ RAV4! I drive 1000 miles a month and pay $150 for 50 gallons of gas. In a Volt I would spend $9 for 3 gallons of gas (150 miles in CS mode) and $21.25 for 212.5 kWh of juice (figuring 4 miles per kWh, worst case scenario). I would save $120 a month, drive an electric car, go to a gas station every other month and laugh all the way to the bank! No foreign oil to speak of, photovoltaic array on the roof of my garage, multiply times 60,000 drivers per year…
Sweet dreams are made of this.
+2
May 1st, 2010 (10:14 am)It’s all good news that points to the Voltec system expanding more and more. Yikes, imagine if the article stated that GM was putting the project on the back burner? Going into the teeth of the European car market with guns a blazing is a good sign.
May 1st, 2010 (10:38 am)I just hope that complicated and too long to mention formula for European car sales doesn’t also indicate more profit for GM. For now at least every Ampera produced = one less Volt.
-24
May 1st, 2010 (10:39 am)(click to show comment)
+6
May 1st, 2010 (10:43 am)Do you even use cars ova theya? uh, I mean for transportation?
+6
May 1st, 2010 (10:43 am)May be just me, but I like Ampera’s exterior. however; I will take the Volt too.
May 1st, 2010 (10:57 am)Statik,
To avoid any eye gouging, how about just giving us some examples of car pricing in Germany?
How many euros for a mini, an insight, a 335d?
+1
May 1st, 2010 (11:02 am)With current 1,2 Euro/liter gas price at gas station (VAT including) Ampera would be very economical.
May 1st, 2010 (11:09 am)You’re so right, Tagamet.
Omigosh! I gotta split, it’s after 0.45833333333 days (in central time) already! I’ll be late. See you all later.
+4
May 1st, 2010 (11:14 am)With the taxsystem here in Denmark price will be 2,5 times US price = USD 75.000,- !!
Believe it or not – that cheap for a car !
May 1st, 2010 (11:21 am)Still I wish it had minimum 160 kilometers per charge….
Because I want to use only 100% SOLAR POWER and NOT a DROP OF GASOLINE !!!
+2
May 1st, 2010 (11:30 am)Reminds me of when the company my father worked for had some Italians over here for training and one of them bought an ice bucket to take back as a souvenir. He was showing it to some friends over there and one turned it over and it said made in Italy on the bottom.
+6
May 1st, 2010 (11:45 am)Remember all of the grizzling about how low the air dam is under the front of the Volt? Look at that thing, LOL.
Anyway, I hope they sell a million of them. As so many have said, it would seem to make total sense in Europe, where gas costs more than twice what it does here. And in London especially, if it is exempt from the “congestion fee”.
And the idea of producing cars in Hamtramck and shipping them to Europe, even if only for a short while, makes me smile.
May 1st, 2010 (11:59 am)Maybe imports are getting too complicated…
+2
May 1st, 2010 (12:00 pm)As far as I know, everyhting tends to be more expensive in Europe.
At least products like Ipods or Playstation tend to be converted 1:1
if its 300$ is the US, it’s 300€ in Europe.
a VW Golf is starting at 17 620$ according to vw.com
a VW Golf TDI (Diesel) starting at 22 354$
according to volkswagen.de
16.825,00€
20.825,00€ (Diesel)
But I dont’t know if the US and German version are comparable…
May 1st, 2010 (12:01 pm)+5
May 1st, 2010 (12:05 pm)Congress’s big gem for us – an American VAT. Remember when Bush Sr. made that campaign promise – “no new taxes, READ MY LIPS”? Remember Mr. Obama during his campaign – “ABSOLUTELY NO NEW TAXES FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS – to anyone making under 250k”?
If the VAT passes this year or next I hope the same fate will come to him as Bush Sr. when their actions failed to match their words. Man, you can see how well European economies are working out? $53,000 for Ampera?!!!
I liked the pictures of the Ampera concept, like the Volt concept, with larger wheels and tires ( I know, I know – less AER… ) the ( Bob Lutz- “aero nuetral” mirrors ), more pronounced air dam/spoiler up front,less vertical rubber airdam, etc.. The production version? I noticed the back end with it’s faux outlet vents looks a bit anemic with the smaller wheels and tires, but I like the taillight treatment better than Volt. Ampera looks great in black but just can’t get over the IRON MAN/TRANSFORMERS grillework. So I’ll take my Volt, please. I will say I like all of them in dark colors better. It makes less difference in Ampera since you notice it’s body cladding-kick panels and air dam are body color whereas Volt gets charcoal gray textured plastic. Detail-oriented types notice the Volt’s gray kick panels changed in the pre-production and production intent versions along with the front spoiler/airdam. Since they had to raise the plastic portion (gray) they started the leading edge of the side cladding after the lower edge of the front wheel well – higher, thus silver or light colored Volts have this “hanging doors” look I don’t much like at all. Black or charcoal gray Volts look much nicer to me, where the gray parts blend right in. Otherwise GM-optional, or aftermarket body color “ground effects” packages would be my answer, or paint the lower body parts to match body color.
What do you think?
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
+2
May 1st, 2010 (12:07 pm)Sometimes making a car look sexy is more important than making it usable. Wouldn’t be surprised if some owners drop the car another 25.4mm for the “low look”. Wonder if GM sells the front dam in budget 3 packs?
The Ampera looks great.
=D-Volt
+2
May 1st, 2010 (12:15 pm)Sweet looking car. I’ll take an Ampera. Send the Volt to Europe… Yawn…
Thanks Statik.
+6
May 1st, 2010 (12:27 pm)Just to explain car pricing in Germany vs. US.
Usually you can take your US price, convert it 1:1 to EUR and add 20%. Even for cars build over here
. Just to mention, prices in Germany always include 19% VAT.
Very expensive cars like BMWs can be reimported from US and you will save several thousand $/EUR.
40.000 EUR will be far to expensive to sell an Opel. Opel is rated as a cheap price brand. I don’t believe anyone would buy an Ampera at this price level.
My max. price would be 35.000 EUR (according to the above mentioned calculation). So far, it’s not planned to pay any money to a ecar buyer by the german government
. Maybe as there is no german car manufactorer ready to ship a ecar at the moment.
Cheers from Bavaria/Germay
Ulrich
+6
May 1st, 2010 (12:34 pm)Maybe imports are too complicated.
+2
May 1st, 2010 (12:56 pm)#24
You got that right, LOL. +1
When my wife finally got me to get rid of the ’95 Impala and get a Cobalt (no comments please, I feel bad enough already), the first thing I said was “Let’s get a spring kit and lower it a little bit.” You may have heard her scream “NO WAYYYY!!!”. 14 years of dragging that front spoiler and the tailpipes every time she went up a driveway did it for her, LMAO.
We only replaced the spoiler once though, so I really don’t worry about it re: the Volt
+5
May 1st, 2010 (1:03 pm)#26
many thanks for your comment. +1
One of my favorite parts of this blog is hearing from people around the world. From Jean-Charles Jacquemin in Belgium, to NZDavid, to Dimitri in Russia, and from someone in Denmark just yesterday or today, and now from you, it’s just great to get such wonderful input from around the world.
Welcome Ulrich. Please keep contributing.
I will never forget J-C J saying that this type of forum will enable us to see past the parochial spin and PR flak of our politicians and work together to solve world wide problems. Man, I sure hope so.
Very best regards.
May 1st, 2010 (1:05 pm)#27
LOL. Literally. Thanks, I needed that. +1
Must be a !@#$%^ engineer, LMAO.
-6
May 1st, 2010 (1:20 pm)Volt LS base price: $39,825.
Volt LTZ nicely equipped: $47,950.
Volt LTZ fully loaded: $53,540.
The latter two prices include destination charge. All three prices are before the $7,300 tax credit.
+2
May 1st, 2010 (2:07 pm)Typo. $7,500 tax credit.
May 1st, 2010 (2:42 pm)I love pie….er pi
+1
May 1st, 2010 (3:28 pm)Thanks Statik, another great insight into off-shore markets for GM.
+1
May 1st, 2010 (4:23 pm)The Opel insignia, grill & legs of the ‘boomerang’ headlights seem unfinished in the photo above. I DEFINITELY prefer the distinctive styling of the Ampera, front & rear, to that of the Volt’s ‘plain vanilla’ styling. Sure wish I could buy an Ampera here.
+1
May 1st, 2010 (5:05 pm)Regarding post #23 -
It’s so normal, it’s gotten funny — But if I mention Obama, the current administration, or Congress in a post —- it’s a guaranteed – 1, -2, -4….
Yes, I understand many in the green movement back this administration hoping for real change.
Yes, I understand Barack Obama is a magnanimous, charismatic character and immensly popular with alot of folks even if he doesn’t hold true to his election promises ( look at Afghanistan, our boys dieing FOR NO REASON when he said he’d bring our boys home, and the surge was trash, for instance )…. And isn’t anybody embarassed that the inane, “DRILL BABY DRILL” chorus of Republicans like Sarah Palin was heeded by Obama only weeks ago?
Yes I understand he is on TV, in media daily pushing his agenda there more than any other U.S. President in history. Even though he cannot stitch two sentences together without a teleprompter-AT LEAST HE IS NOT BUSH, and he is articulate. Yes I get that.
So yes, I know I’m gonna take some hits here when I speak plain simple truths. Bush Sr. paid the penalty for “READ MY LIPS – no new taxes” – Obama should the same if a NATIONAL SALES TAX (V.A.T.) and Cap and Trade ( Co2 tax ) deeply effect the common Joe and Joan American in the pocketbook.
Plain and simple. I didn’t criticize or politicize. I only spoke facts and where we are. The inside skinny is that Congress is saying maybe not this year for V.A.T., but next year for sure.
I say instead of a VAT tax ( part of why Ampera will cost Europeans $53,000 MSRP ), why don’t we stop spending the insane hundreds of billions of dollars per year keeping two wars going – place a security base in Iraq to insure the flow of oil ( which is why we were there in the first place – Iraq, the 4th largest importer of oil to America ), maintain presence ( a base in the Iraqi desert with large landing strip, like we have in Japan, Phillippines, Germany…. … …) in front of Iran – and pull back the other 200,000+ soldiers, some who are lost every single day, whose mothers mourn – WHY?!!!! To chase some jihadist hoodlems around their holes in desolate, pathetic Afghanistan. Afghanistan, one of the world’s oldest cultures – drenched in drug crops and corruption wrapped up in a nice smelly package of religious extremism. Maybe that will put money back into our strapped economy – not a NATIONAL SALES TAX (V.A.T.).
So boo…..hiss….. click the -1s. I want a Volt in my garage. I want to be off foreign oil sources. I want to stop the pathetic BP oil spill stories. Alaska, it’s people and industry – the dead fish keep washing up on shore 23 years after the Exxon Valdez,1000s of lives still affected there – do we care?…. How many more reasons do we need to use to remind GM to BUILD MPV5 in AMERICA for AMERICANS and Volts in numbers that show you mean it?!!!! How many more reasons?!!!
For those who blab not to mention government and politics here on gm-volt, shame on you. We
(“the govnerment”) own a majority of GM. We have a right to a voice.
If you don’t believe politics is right in the middle of Volt, then I have some bargain desert real estate
(and some really cheap workers to go along with it) to sell you in Arizona!
It’s crucial we be real….be objective….be opinionated here at gm-volt.com. GM watches what we say. Knock off all the fan boy – butt kissin’ that goes on here every single day. GM isn’t gonna put you at the top of some list to get your Volt because you spew positivity about them here day after day after day.
I said long ago I was the voice of reason on this site.
This is the THIRD DAY I HAVE FRONTED THIS IMPORTANT QUESTION TO ALL POSTERS AND READERS OF GM-VOLT.COM and I have yet to get ONE answer…..Not ONE. Everybody knows me here and many of my posts get rave reviews or at least some respect and acknowledgement.
SO HERE GOES AGAIN — Who is brave enough— realist enough and unafraid of what GM thinks of them – enough to answer this VERBOTEN – Forbidden question: ————————————————————————————————————————————————————–
IN YOUR HEART, IN YOUR PERSONAL OPINION —- WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ODDS GM WILL BUILD VOLT AND VOLTECS IN REAL NUMBERS – NUMBERS wherein YOU AND I COULD ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE AT PURCHASING ONE? And why?
Please answer. Again this is DAY 3 without one answer —– What gives guys?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m starting to wonder…..
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
+4
May 1st, 2010 (5:27 pm)There may be a few here with the inside scoop and enough high quality information to accurately answer your question. I have been to two Volt dealerships and to 3 Volt auto shows. I have spoken with about 10 different GM employees. My feelings are that GM will do what they say they’ll do. Have a very slow roll out of Volt. And if they can get the price-per-car they want. Then ramp up to 50k or 60k per year.
With the change of course on the delta frame Orlando. And the lack of interest in producing the Volt MPV. I believe other big brand car manufactures will be the ones providing the much sought after EREV crossover/MPV/SUV. I believe the GEN 2-3 Volt will be very high priced and fall into the middle range BMW group. GM will continue to produce a moderate number of these for the well to do buyer.
I feel GM should drop the Volt MPV and simply go Voltec on the Orlando. And rename it to something else by the way. As one Chevy dealer here has stated. The Volt sitting alone in a showroom is by definition a niche vehicle. Having a Volt and Volando side by side is a sure winner. And solidifies GM’s strong position in the electric vehicle business. Why GM is avoiding this truth is a mystery to us all.
=D-Volt
+6
May 1st, 2010 (6:14 pm)OK, James, I’ll give you my answer. But first I want to say I ABHOR POLITICAL (or religious) discussions on this forum (although I have strong opinions about both), so in responding to your question I’m in no way endorsing or commenting on your politically-slanted comments. Yes, GM will build HUGE numbers of Volts —enough for us both to buy one! Here’s why. The car simply sells itself and mouth-to-mouth advertising from those who test drive one will create an enormous demand. And given that demand, GM will HAVE to respond by building large numbers of Volts/Voltec cars —because they won’t get a third chance (and they know it)! Earlier today I said it differently in my salutation to Bob Lutz after his final post on GM’s “fastlane” blog (Bob retired effective yesterday)…
“Bob, I met you in the VoltNation gathering at the NY Auto Show in March 2007. More recently, I returned to NYC this past March at GM’s invitation to test drive a prototype 2011 Chevy Volt, a car I believe the automotive press will eventually credit you for as perhaps the most important single automotive development at GM in decades, if not ever. My short summary of that test drive: “THE VOLT IS BY FAR THE EASIEST TO DRIVE, THE MOST RESPONSIVE & THE MOST EXCITING CAR I’VE EVER DRIVEN!!!”
“And Bob, I’m convinced the Chevy Volt is destined in retrospect to be considered the catalyst that has already caused most of the world’s major carmakers to announce their own plans to offer electrified automobiles to the buying public. My sincere congratulations for what I genuinely consider your “master stroke” at GM —in my opinion, the most important new car in over 100 years!”
As you say, James, “IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.”
+1
May 1st, 2010 (6:27 pm)James,
Relax. Surely it’s occurred to you that no one, and I mean no one, has any idea what GM is going to do with the Volt. Do *I* believe that they will make it happen? Yes. Why? I believe it is in their best interest. *BUT* that’s all it is – a *belief*. No facts, no real idea whether I’m right. But I believe it will happen. Very often, belief is what it’s all about.
And all the ranting and raving in the world will not change how things will actually play out – so why do it.
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR(period)
May 1st, 2010 (6:59 pm)Herm responded to you in the last post at comment 55, and DonC responded to you in that one as well at comment 75. And although he didn’t exactly answer what you want, Tagamet replied to you at comment 53. So, three replies in the Orlando post.
+1
May 1st, 2010 (7:43 pm)I’m eligible for another $5K from the state of Oregon. $23K? Yep, sign me up, I’ll be in line for one for sure!
-2
May 1st, 2010 (7:52 pm)Hi Michael, hope you’re having a great weekend so far – I’m alternating between playing with the kids and toggling through the site – I’m such a gm-volt.com addict! L
L
Yesterday’s posts were not as much answers but excuses. Herm said, if I recall, “it’s not fair to ask such a question”. Tags was…” It’s not fair to ask Chelsea Sexton something that could paint her in a bad light”…. That just doesn’t add up, doesn’t make any sense. Today Tag said I went on a rant. Even when I wrote today’s post I asked myself: “is this just me ranting or facts put as succinctly as possible and a direct, practical question to Voltnationers?” I re-read it four times, cut out anything I felt was rant-like, and posted it. Michael, where’s your answer?
You see – all this fuss is about people afraid others ( especially GM ) might think they’re just not positive as posies about Volt’s eminent availability. It’s no news flash by now, 5-8,000 Volts in 16 months doesn’t give Volt a CHANCE to sell to the mainstream. The news re: millions being spent at Shanghai Tech University to study MPV5, batteries, etc. is a sure nod that this exceptional vehicle will be sold to CHINESE, not AMERICANS. Also, due to cost and politics, it is my strong guess it will be manufactured in China as well.
Now does this make sense? Are you and others afraid to answer a simple question?
The exciting thing is Nasaman and Tag did give their heartfelt opinion and I’m so thankful to them for doing it. I hope they pave the way for many others. Post #36 is not some unfair, loaded question. It’s only asking others here what they feel the REAL chances are GM is gonna come through.
As I said two days ago when I posted the question first – “reaching out” to EV-1 owners, test drives to media and fans, jingles, ads and transparency is all fantastic, ground-breaking, amazing stuff…But in the end it is only frosting — the “CAKE” is Volt. WIll they or won’t they build it in numbers enough to give it a chance?
Again, I give GM about a 25% chance. Many of Volt’s founders, developers are out the door already and just lilke EV-1 it’s darn expensive all-around to produce. As nasaman says “It sell’s itself”…That is an old old sales tactic term that has gained legs in our cultural verbiage. But it’s still sales talk. As a lifetime salesman and son of the #1 Cadillac salesmen in America for two years running in the 60′s ( he did it in a small farm town not big enough for a car dealership, let alone a Caddy dealership )….I know a thing or two about sales…And believe me, NOTHING…no NOTHING sells itself! hahaha…. ( no offense intended ) But corporations wouldn’t spend billions in advertising and the thousands of sales staffs wouldn’t have work if products sold themselves. I agree with Nasaman that if….if Volts get out there on our highways and byways, people will come – thus my tagline.
I also agree with Nasaman that the Volt is spectacular for what it is. So was EV-1. That in itself did not spur GM into true production.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
+3
May 1st, 2010 (7:56 pm)I think not doing the Volt would be the death of the company. ~70% of the US hates the whole bailout thing. It is nearly universally reviled by those on the right. If GM kills the Volt, they tick off the only people sticking with them right now.
May 1st, 2010 (8:07 pm)I have good info that GM will start delivery on the Volt This Year .
Tiger said so
+1
May 1st, 2010 (8:30 pm)Poast #36 James –
Agree…I signed up for the GM-Volt.com approximately 2 years ago. I doubt that I would be able to get one of the first 10,000 units nor do I think that I can afford one either. That is why I signed up for the LEAF and put my $99 down a few weeks ago. The people that get the 1st gen Volt will keep them in the garage. My opinion is the 2nd Gen Volt will not have the expensive liquid cooled battery pack as 1st and the price will be lowered. I believe the second version will be mass produced and available to typical GM consumers such as myself.
I will wait until 2012 to trade in my wife’s Escape for an EV with range extender or plug in hybrid. Hopefully GM will have the Volt drive system in a small SUV package by then. If not then we will trade it in for the Escape Plug in Hybrid. The race is on….
+5
May 1st, 2010 (8:42 pm)I said, “didn’t exactly answer what you want,” in my comment. At that point I am merely pointing out to you that it doesn’t make sense to me for you to put in caps (which usually is connected to shouting) that “I have yet to get ONE answer…..Not ONE.” You may not like their answer, or they may not have given you enough of an answer, but I didn’t think you could say no answers when you did. You might say “I WANT MORE AND BETTER ANSWERS!”
My answer is changing. First of all I don’t know enough about business and economics to answer intelligently. If I were to answer based on emotions, my answer would change every other day. Canceling the Converge, not bringing the Orlando to NA below Canada, perhaps not building Voltec MPV5 and bringing it to NA, all decrease my *feeling* of their commitment. Bringing Volts off the production line, albeit slowly, building pre-production Amperas, announcing that Volts may be out in October, all increase my *feeling* of their commitment.
Because one can’t formulate a good answer for you doesn’t mean one is afraid to answer. you can’t mandate creativity. “I just don’t know right now,” is an answer, and that is my answer.
Two things are clear to me. 1) I intend, as much as possible, to frequent this site every day to see what’s new and what is developing. And 2) I am committed to buying a Volt if I can. I have a dealer who is working with me, I have a deposit on a 2011 Volt, I am first on his list, and I have a plan to pay for it when the time comes. I can’t speak for GM, but I can speak for me. I am 62 years old, I have been driving since I was 16, I have been married for 40 years (to the same woman), and I have purchased ONE new car, a 1973 Buick Apollo (which was totaled 35 months later and we paid the final payment the next month). This is a VERY big deal to me, but one thing I am not is afraid.
My rant off,
Thanks for patiently listening,
Believe and be well,
Michael
May 1st, 2010 (9:17 pm)James, FYI, I was looking at past posts and found the following from Chelsea, posted midday today, on the thread about her:
“I’ve actually tried to answer this several times over the last few days, and it appears to go through, then doesn’t get posted. Not sure why… ” – evchels
+1
May 1st, 2010 (9:18 pm)My preference is for the Chevy Volt. The newly released images of the VOLT CUV is pretty amazing. Looking forward to a garage without Middle-East terrorist oil in my car. I own an electric mower, all electric tools, house runs on natural gas. One more thing to go for this Air Force veteran. Thank you GM for building this car.
JBFALASKA
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED
May 1st, 2010 (9:18 pm)Help me understand something, James. How in the world did you get that (mis)interpretation from this:
“…I’m surprised that she didn’t answer, too. Granted, she was on a Volt fansite. Maybe she feels the worst, but doesn’t want to dampen ANY EV enthusiasm. I confess to writing a fairly pointed question regarding what GM had to do to actually convince *her* that they were serious, but I have a high-tech mouse that just bristles with extra buttons – bumped one and the post was erased. Probably Divine intervention. Chats always have a solid firewall because the guests can choose the questions they are comfortable answering – or waltzing around.
I still have faith that if we here at gm-volt.com can keep taking the high road and remain civil, GM itself will hear us and at least know how we feel. Ms. Sexton is far from a GM spokesperson, JMO.”
I sure didn’t MEAN to say ” It’s not fair to ask Chelsea Sexton something that could paint her in a bad light”…. and yet you place it in QUOTES? You really missed the mark.
And although I didn’t specifically call your post a rant, if the shoe fits….
Tagamet
/night all
LJGTVWOTR!!
+2
May 1st, 2010 (9:21 pm)I think GM will start making big numbers when they are comfortable (more experienced) with the Volt, when it is well received by the early adopters and when the price of the batterypack is much lower (For the Ampera 11000 Euro I read). So probably gen 2 or 3. Remember when Toyota started with the Prius they also started slowly and only in Japan and there where problems with batterypacks that needed to be replaced. The Volt is a whole new concept not just an ordinary car.
May 1st, 2010 (9:22 pm)See my comment above #47 about Chelsea.
BTW, my comment #46 *is* a rant, and you may refer to is as such.
+1
May 1st, 2010 (9:25 pm)This is good news for Australia i hope. This should mean that GM Holden should also be putting this into production in 2011! Here in Australia we are keen to adopt new technology and recently our government paid a conciderable amount of $$ to have the new Toyota Camry hybrid built here down under. Wish he had have put that fundage into the voltec platform instead! Anyway GM please bring Voltec down under asap, perhaps a Rear Wheel Drive Voltec Platform Commodore is on the cards soon! I can only dream
stuey australia
NPNS =D~
+1
May 1st, 2010 (9:26 pm)Oh.. he is ranting alright.
May 1st, 2010 (9:43 pm)Yes, I almost replied to your post @46 to nominate you for site Historian
And yes, your rant was duly noted (but it was such a *positive* rant) (lol).
Herm: You’re a funny one, you are (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
/Also notable in this whole “go ’round” is that there was not a single instance of name-calling. Just makes me want to smile ear to ear. Nice place we got here.
+1
May 1st, 2010 (9:48 pm)Hey post 45, you must live in LA, huh! Boy, that’s mass market reality!
If you don’t and you live in any place that has temps that get below freezing once in a while, or have to deal with Arizona heat, then boy will you have Volt Envy! Air cooled batteries don’t cut it for me.
Despite low volume predictions and political bs, if the Volt works as advertised and 70% of their miles driven are without pumped gas, the Volt will be in demand. The retail price vs. content will determine the volume (duh!).
My fear is that Volt/Ampera 3.0 will be more Chinese than American. Riley has been there too long and knows what a little education and quality control will do over there (see Korea, Riley was there too). His comments about the various size batteries are for the European market based on his Chinese experience. With Lutz gone who will step up and piss in the coffee of the old timer GM money people that might want to give us Chinese products under the skin of an “American” car.
GM listened well enough to kill the Vuick.
I want an Impala EREV for the US, 40 miles electric is nice but 60 would be great for me. Can you get one done for about $35k? If you don’t Hyundai will.
May 1st, 2010 (11:55 pm)No serious person would reflexively oppose replacing the corporate income tax with a VAT. As has been discussed here before, goods shipped from a country with an income tax to a country with a VAT has its exports taxed twice — once on the income from exporting and once when their goods hit the border and get assessed a VAT. On the other hand, goods shipped from a country with a VAT to a country with an income tax gets taxed zero times — no income tax and the VAT paid gets rebated. IOW our exports our taxed twice while our imports are never taxed at all. This seriously compromises our ability to compete internationally and costs US jobs — lots of jobs. With respect to the topic of the day, it’s the reason why Amperas aren’t going to be exported to Europe for very long. Now there may be valid reasons to oppose a VAT but mindlessly opposing a VAT is, well, mindless.
Outside of international trade, a VAT is more or less politically neutral. Liberals like it because it’s a source of revenue. Conservatives like it because it’s a tax on consumption. Each group dislikes it for related reasons.
Now, since we’re on the subject of taxes, since you’ve vented your pet peeve, here is mine. We have a very large gap between what we want the government to spend and how much tax we want to pay. That’s understandable but not realistic. To balance the federal budget without raising taxes we’d need to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Defense by 30% to 40%. Is this what you’re proposing? Or maybe you want smaller cuts in Social Security and you think we ought to simply eliminate Defense. I dunno. But in any event I think it’s time to grow up and stop acting like five year old children who throw a hissy fit when their parents tell them that they can’t eat their cake and have it too. Personally I’m OK with either taxiing or cutting or, better still, some cutting and some taxing. What I’m not OK with is continuing down the reckless path of spend and borrow, all the while pretending that the problem is something other than the fact that we want the government to provide services but we don’t want to pay for them.
IOW it would be nice for our children to have a country left ….
May 2nd, 2010 (12:33 am)Statik says “by my estimation 40,000 Euros on a Ampera works out to around a $34,000-$36,000 price point in the US.”
I don’t think the numbers translate this low. As you pointed out, just doing the currency exchange suggests the Volt would be valued at $53K. Take out VAT and it’s still $46K. You can massage it some but there is a long way between $46K and $34K.
However, the Leaf at $32.5K is an anchor point that GM can’t ignore. GM can and should expect a premium for EREV but you have to think that the premium needs to be between $2K at the lower end and $5K at the upper end. Do that and you end up at $34K to $38K, which is about where your estimate of the conversion came out.
As for Germany bailing out other Eurozone countries, the Euro allows Germany to, in essence, manipulate its currency and make its exports more competitive. So doing some bailing may be the price to be paid for allowing the Bavarians to build those autos for export. (Let’s recognize that a weak Euro helps Germany so it’s not like it pays a price for not doing the bailing). The big price is being paid by the citizens of those countries, such as Spain and Ireland, who will suffer from high unemployment rates because their country’s monetary policy is in large part controlled by Germany and whose government’s can’t inflate their way out of the problem by devaluing their currency.
+3
May 2nd, 2010 (4:33 am)I really don’t know, where you take your knowledge of european economy from. During the past twenty years, countries like Ireland and Spain took out large loans in order to offer ridiculous low taxes to companies. As a result many companies left Germany , leaving huge numbers of unemployed. As a further result, rise of earnings weren’t worth mentioning since early nineties of the last century (in Germany). Now these countries mentioned above are sitting on a huge mountain of debt and might get some problems, but to declare germany as the culprit is really barefaced.
a german friend of the volt/ampera
+1
May 2nd, 2010 (4:41 am)I’m all for a VAT in the US. But at the 7% rate talked about in the 70s as being plenty to balance the budget and pay off the debt. The rate I hear being passed around by Congress is anywhere from 20 to 25%, which would probably be about 2 times what is necessary, and way too much of an increase in tax revenue for the government. One problem I have is estimating how much revenue they take in now, so many people have deductions, etc, and pay less than the current tax rate, or nothing at all. Given health care and all that, maybe 12 to 15% would be a more reasonable number, but not 25%.
+1
May 2nd, 2010 (4:56 am)Volt demo drive video.
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=chevy+volt+drive&b=1&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701&fr2=tab-web&tnr=21&vid=0001913093463
Viewed another recent demo video and noticed good head room in the rear seat. The Volt is looking good.
=D-Volt
May 2nd, 2010 (7:12 am)Thanks for the international input! It’s really great that we have visitors here from 9literally) all over the world!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+2
May 2nd, 2010 (7:18 am)James #36 Said: “IN YOUR HEART, IN YOUR PERSONAL OPINION —- WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ODDS GM WILL BUILD VOLT AND VOLTECS IN REAL NUMBERS – NUMBERS wherein YOU AND I COULD ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE AT PURCHASING ONE? And why?”
=============================
I am late to the party, but here are my thoughts:
#1. This is a Volt site, not a political forum. That is why I come here. Like Washington, DC, political forums very quickly turn into nasty name calling and hate filled places. This site has great information and has remained very friendly for the three years I have been here. And that is why I come back.
#2. Back to your question. It really is this simple. If GM makes a profit on every Volt sold, and the people start to not buy their other vehicles, because they want a Volt instead, then GM will VERY QUICKLY ramp up production so that they can sell more. If, on the other hand, GM loses money on every Volt sold, and the price of gasoline stays at the current price, then the Volt is going to be a niche car, used to tout a green halo.
#3. When will you and I be able to buy one? If you have enough money, you will be able to buy one in November, 2010. If not, it will probably be 2012. That is JMHO.
Is that a direct enough answer for you?
Have outlet – ready for EREV.
NPNS My NPNS tagline is completely serious. My next car will be electric. I would like it to be a Volt. But if it is not available, it will be whatever I can buy, hopefully by 2012 at the latest………
May 2nd, 2010 (7:57 am)On #1 and #2 we are (optimistically) in sync. Well said. Although I have “Buy a brand new car” on my Bucket List, I’ll might not get to scratch that off if the Volt isn’t available. I’m definitely not getting a BEV and won’t settle for a traditional GM car (as I think their marketing dept is hoping for). Maybe a Ford Plugin…
Thanks for wading into the James saga.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
May 2nd, 2010 (8:15 am)So if this car was being produced by BMW or Cadillac it would be worth it?
May 2nd, 2010 (9:06 am)I wish I could give you 10+ for that.
May 2nd, 2010 (10:28 am)To all,
On tuesday April 20th in Brussels during the Belgian Federal Government Conference : “Plug-in the Grid”, I presented a paper about comparative advantages of different kind of EVs and EREVs.See http://economie.fgov.be/fr/consommateurs/Energie/Developpement_energie/seminaire_vehicules_electriques/index.jsp
My simulations were not very much appreciated by the representative of GM Europe who was attending the conference.
I used an hypothetical price of 35,000€ for the Volt/Ampera, his reaction was thatcnobody at GM Europe was knowing the price interva of the Ampera and that we should wait several months for it to be correctly approximated.
What I may say is that if the Ampera is sold at 35,000€ (or above) it is not competitive with the Nissan Leaf (even with public subsidies and even if gas prices are doubled). The thing to know is that the LEAF is competitive even without public subsidies IF a cooperative scenario “à la Renault-Betterplace” is implemented.
Best regards,
JC NPNS
May 2nd, 2010 (11:38 am)#38
I agree. +1
And a big -1 to the diatribe at #36.
May 2nd, 2010 (11:44 am)#61
Second the motion. +1
May 2nd, 2010 (11:54 am)Well, people _do_ pay more for a BMW, Mercedes or Porsche than for an Opel! That’s a matter of fact.
Cheers
Ulrich
May 2nd, 2010 (12:18 pm)Well my French is not that good so I will make my own cost comparison. I want to drive electric (most of the time) and keep the car for 10 years.
Ampera say 35000 euro
Leaf say 32000 euro
In the Ampera I get a big 16 kwh battery and only 8 kwh is needed for 40 miles and I get 10 years warranty.
In the Leaf I get a comparatively small 24 kwh battery and about 20 kwh is needed for 100 miles. So my expectation is I need to replace it within 10 years which will cost at least 10000 euro.
My guess would be that the Ampera is cheaper in 10 years time. Also the value of the car will probably be higher after 10 years, the ICE is at least as good as new.
+1
May 2nd, 2010 (1:14 pm)I’m more trying to understand the bias towards the sale of an American built car sold in Europe than the idea of the Ampera EREV as a viable alternative to the ICE. Maybe the guys over at Top Gear can have a go in one….in January….in Norway….and with a side by side LEAF comparison.
May 2nd, 2010 (1:26 pm)IQ130, here in W Europe the households that buy a new car sell it when it is, on average, 5 years old, at the quarter of the purchase price (always on average). My simulations were based on those assumptions.
Best regards,
JC
May 2nd, 2010 (3:13 pm)OUCH. High end luxury cars here can see that kind of depreciation, but any other cars hold value far better here.
May 2nd, 2010 (5:24 pm)I live in W Europe myself and a quarter of the purchase price after 5 years for an ordinary car is not a very good deal, well for the buyer it is. But my point is for a fair cost comparison between cars with big batteries the lifetime of the battery and replacement costs are very important.
Of course there is more than price but to me the Nissan Leaf looks like a great offer and competition (choice) is good for customers.
May 2nd, 2010 (6:16 pm)Good read JCJ. I confess I’m a little rough reading the french myself, but I was just curious on the fuel consumptions, especially on the diesel…and the .13 overnight, is that the expected rate over the ownership of the vehicle, or just at origin?
Also, can you take just a straight overnight rate? (again-provided I am reading it correctly) Given the still relative cheapness of daytime electricity as compared to petrol, especially in Europe, it seems to me most would recharge the moment the vehicle is in park…whether that be at work, or at home (in case they go out again). I know for myself, it is highly unlikely I will time-delay any charging at all.
Not sure about the 25% residual for a electric either, not saying that isn’t the case, but very much a unknown. I would think you have a little ‘Prius’ effect, where electrics are a far less depreciating car in relation to a ICE because the justification of the initial price paid is moreso based on the fuel consumption/societal benefits over the desire/intangibles that are more common for a ICE…especially when you are getting into a price bracket around 30K.
I’m a little foggy on your conclusion, again my french is acting up. Are you saying that the goal is to have the manufacturers produce the standard ‘before batteries’ portion of the car at a discount to a comparable ICE vehicle because of the ‘on paper’ savings of the ICE components…and then be able to work the feasibility of the car from there over time (eventually without incentives) because of the decreasing nature of the li-ion batteries being a commodity?
Sorry about all the questions, it just drives me nuts to read something not in my first language, and not be able to digest it clearly.
May 2nd, 2010 (10:29 pm)Thanks Michael for spotting that! I’ll have to go back there and thank her as well. Sometimes my posts don’t go through too, it’s rare, but it does happen.
Again, thanks!
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
May 2nd, 2010 (10:34 pm)Noel, I know you’re my biggest fan
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
May 2nd, 2010 (10:59 pm)Hi Tag. God bless you on this fine Sunday. Hey, if I screwed up – shame on me – didn’t mean to misquote you at all – someone that day did say that ( “” ) so if it wasn’t you, my bad, definitely!
Please accept my apology on that one. Makes me go back and read that whole thread, one-by-one.
As far as my posts – I’ll have to agree to disagree on the definition of a “rant”, and “diatribe”. To me those are negative terms typifying some baby who didn’t get their toy, so they vent at the expense of everyone else. I just don’t see what I wrote as such, as I listed facts, whether you agree or disagree – hey, that’s what a conversation is- an exchange of opinions and ideas.
I think Michael sized it up very eloquently – it is confusing. It’s like each day on this site is an emotional rollercoaster to all of us who love the Volt, believe in it and those excellent engineers who put their blood, sweat and tears into it. It just seems more days than not that they won’t give their baby a chance to thrive. We’ll just have to see, and I can honestly say I hope GM proves me wrong! We’ll all sit together at our National Volt Meeting and you’ll pat me on the back and say, pay up James, root beers all around on you!!! You were wrong wrong wrong!!!”
And I’ll gladly oblige.
Michael’s answer was what I really was fishing for — just honest, from-the-hip response to the rollercoaster and everyone’s take on how much faith they have in GM to really come through.
I thanked Michael for the heads-up on Chelsea’s late post – as a rule, I don’t go back and read old posts but today I definately am – since I’m on the West Coast I generally check the last posts after everyone else has gone for the night, so her post had to have come the next day or so.
Anyway, I’m considering opening up my own blog site, website…. so you won’t have to hear my “diatribes” L
L unless you go there to seek it out. Or Noel can just skip my posts from now on 
.
RECHARGE! James
IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.
P.S. – When I capitalize, it’s not the traditional “YELLING” some people characterize it as – I’m merely using emphasis. I can definitely see how some might translate my posts as “rants” or “diatribes” if you interpret me as shouting away….haha. Some on here have mastered the bold lettering, yet I have yet to figure out how to do that on here as it never seems to work once I click “enter”….
May 3rd, 2010 (1:52 am)IQ130,
I agree with you, but a lot of discussions with several people before I presented the paper didn’t clarify the assumptions.
My computations can produce a who
le range of results but we had to make comparisons in a simple case study.
Members of the industry didn’t contest the data and assumptions saying that for EVs taking a 10 years time horizon was too long. Because of the technological obsolescence of batteries people would like to change their cars along with the technological progress.
On this forum, we know that Volt Gen 2 and Gen 3 are already in preparation ….
So the leasing business model “à la Nissan or Bolloré’s Bluecar” seems more appropriate. More and more people in the discussion after the presentations agreed that the current model of car ownership could evolve towards a new model of paying for your own personal mobility instead of paying for a car and the energy it consumes.
BR
JC NPNS
May 3rd, 2010 (1:56 am)Hi Statik,
Good questions,
If you allow me to answer them in a few hours, I have less interesting things to do now.
BR
JC NPNS
May 3rd, 2010 (4:48 am)Hi Statik, my answers in some parts of your text.
Q. “I was just curious on the fuel consumptions, especially on the diesel…and the .13 overnight, is that the expected rate over the ownership of the vehicle, or just at origin?”
A. Fuel consumptions 6l/100km (a little more than 40 MPG, that is a common value used for instance by Opel in their press review about the Ampera for their comparisons), .13 is the expected rate over the ownership of the vehicle because EV could in fact DECREASE the cost of electricity IF a good V2G technique is used, a study by our national, regulator as shown that it could be possible for the average driver (15,000 km/Year about 9,300 miles) to pay only 46€/year for the electricity. that is as low as .02. So I took the current night electricity rate of the major producer as an approximation.
Q. Also, can you take just a straight overnight rate? (again-provided I am reading it correctly)Given the still relative cheapness of daytime electricity as compared to petrol, especially in Europe, it seems to me most would recharge the moment the vehicle is in park…whether that be at work, or at home (in case they go out again).I know for myself, it is highly unlikely I will time-delay any charging at all.
A. This has to be seen, I agree with you from a behavioral perspective, but I tried to answer above, a good V2G scheme could lead to different prices. I did some sensitivity analyses and came to the conclusion that even if the electricity price double, this will not change the tone of the main conclusions, simply the gains for the EV driver would be smaller by a small annual amount.
Q. Not sure about the 25% residual for a electric either, not saying that isn’t the case, but very much a unknown.I would think you have a little ‘Prius’ effect, where electrics are a far less depreciating car in relation to a ICE because the justification of the initial price paid is moreso based on the fuel consumption/societal benefits over the desire/intangibles that are more common for a ICE…especially when you are getting into a price bracket around 30K.
A. I concur with your thinking but I could as well advocate the reverse, a lot of people are concerned by the technological obsolescence of EVs in the next decade, what is the resale price now of your laser discs, or of your Canon A80 powershot, or your Nokia XXX, or our Compaq laptop, etc. ? So I have chosen not to decide and taken the average resale value we get after 5 years as a seller for an used ICE car.
Q. Are you saying that the goal is to have the manufacturers produce the standard ‘before batteries’ portion of the car at a discount to a comparable ICE vehicle because of the ‘on paper’ savings of the ICE components…
A. Yes, Renault writes on its Internet site that it will sell its EVS (without the battery) at the same price as their diesel equivalent : “# Electric vehicles will retail at the same price as equivalent diesel models (without the battery, which is rented);Source :http://www.renault.com/en/capeco2/vehicule-electrique/pages/vehicule-electrique.aspx“, I do not agree, together with a lot of engineers I spoke with, EVs are simplier to build … I agree however that there is some R&D, more technological progress in energy saving modules, etc. So simply substract (2,000 – 500)€/5 that is 300€ to the annual gains of the EV driver to have a current “Renault” simulation.
Q. and then be able to work the feasibility of the car from there over time (eventually without incentives) because of the decreasing nature of the li-ion batteries being a commodity?
A. YES
And sorry not to have written my presentation in English.
Great to have had your comment Statik, it is pleasure as usual, and the conclusion of all that is that it is quite difficult to make projections without real data.
I trully believe the GM Europe representative when he said “We do not know anything today on the price of the Ampera”.
In the same way, the Nissan representative was also very elusive when I asked him the leasing cost of the LEAF in Europe, the only answer I got was, “similar to the US cost” (and Q. “the resale value ?” A. “Well it is easy to compute it”).
BR
JC NPNS
+1
May 3rd, 2010 (6:54 am)mmm… Nice picture. Is the Dark Vador complete suit kit bundled?
Cheers
Lawrence
May 3rd, 2010 (8:37 am)Thanks for my own personal ‘re-presentation,’ (=
The presentation in french was great, no need to convert to english. Your statements were apparently clear and concise enough to let me muddle through and get the idea, so I’m sure everyone you presented it to had no trouble understanding what you were driving at. (Although I confess to getting a little bit of a headache with your graphing…just kidding)
Thanks for the info on the energy assumptions, and I agree that the cost of electricity (whether it be in current costs or approximated for the life of the vehicle) is pretty much a moot point, especially when you have to allow for a similar curve on the price of petrol (if not steeper and/or a overall net monetary gain to your assumption over time)…I was pretty much just curious where your starting point was, and my french let me down.
It is tough to go out on a limb at this point without knowing the starting fixed costs, so point to you. At the very least it gets into people’s heads now, and hopefully manufacturer’s as well if they want their EV to be widely adopted.
—
Personally, I think a lot (most) of government subsidy is misplaced. I also think over time a EV (especially a pure BEV) will be a relatively easy build compared to a ICE, and the cost/expense will be in the battery themselves, making the whole segment of electrics commodity based.
Therefore, if the government subsidy went to kick start the energy storage industry behind the auto makers, the cost efficiencies would come to the front a lot quicker…although that would likely mean companies like GM would be out of the business sooner, as they have not demonstrated the ability to build and sell a small car at a profit. I would think the initial winners would be companies like Hyundai who have mastered the cheap ‘glider.’ Whether or not they could survive the eventual push of China/India, I don’t know.
Right now, with government subsidy so focused on the end manufacturers, I think some of the companies set to receive it are a frog in boiling water…at least those using 3rd party battery providers. Nissan and Mitsu to some extent are playing the role the government’s should have, but to their own in-house battery startups (while still receiving the same gov’t subsidy on sales as their peers) which I think will lead to a disconnect in their pricing structure compared to others in the future (if we are not seeing it already).
/so quiet at the end of these threads
May 3rd, 2010 (9:00 am)Every time I read a few posts that make predictions (as opposed to projections) and use data from, hmmm, nothing, I remember what Andrew Farah said: All models are wrong, some are useful.
This thread, however, has been one of the more interesting reads I have come across in a while. Good work.
Just one question. What are the average km/yr/vehicle stats for each of the European markets? I would imagine that this statistic would be the most determining factor in battery capacity for a high production volume car. In the US we travel on the average of 19,000 km/yr with about 75% of the drivers averaging 64 km/day.
I don’t want to spend $30k for a 2nd car.
(if anyone has a link to an English translation, much would be appreciated)
May 3rd, 2010 (3:25 pm)Hi Statik and Crew,
thanks, I’m just finishing to read the EU proposal for an integrated European policy (a strategy) on green and efficient vehicles, and our debate is clearly in the core of the proposal, good reading, it is here : http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/automotive/files/pagesbackground/competitiveness/com-2010-186_en.pdf
and for crew I tried to find an answer but I was unable to find a common source. So in Belgium, our daily average is 40km and more than 80% of the drivers cover less than 50km/day.
BR
JC NPNS
May 3rd, 2010 (3:49 pm)Opel has done some research and said the average Opel Ampera driver will drive 70-80 percent on electricity (from the battery). It is not clear if this is for Europe or only Germany. I read this in a german car magazine.
May 3rd, 2010 (4:13 pm)HI IQ130
I may complete the picture by writing that Toyota has done a research in France with EDF (Electricié de France), see p.17 in http://economie.fgov.be/fr/binaries/Toyotal_tcm326-99355.pdf
in that study more than 80% of the drivers cover less than 25 km/day.
BR JC NPNS
May 3rd, 2010 (5:41 pm)I agree 10 years for the battery is very long but for the car itself it is not. There was also criticism towards Tesla Motors that they did not offer a battery replacement for their Tesla Roadster. Now they offer a replacement after 7 years and it will cost 9200 euro, to be paid in advance. The replacement of the battery from the Nissan Leaf is very easy so this is an advantage. Hopefully, batteries are improved a lot when they need to be replaced. Leasing might also be a good option if you are uncertain about the lifetime of the battery. For an ICE car a lifetime of more than 10 years is pretty normal (average may be 15 years).
May 3rd, 2010 (6:29 pm)If the average driver for the Ampera travels less than he would in America then either the Ampera is needlessly expensive for using a 16 kw battery or driving will increase with a lower cost per km.
The LEAF makes sense only for limited travel in Europe just as it does in the US. A cost effective electric charging/exchanging (vs non-taxed petroleum) infrastructure does not exist, nor can one be projected without extensive government subsidies. Off peak home charging is hard to beat.
I see one major disadvantage of increasing the size of a lithium ion battery for use in an EV:
Cheap batteries will be manufactured in China.
The choice might remain just as it will be now for quite a while (at least until 2020). Biofuels will extend the life of the internal combustion engine and fuel cells are prohibitively expensive.
What exists now that can effectively be projected to reduce global CO2 over the next 40 years? Will Europe, America or China lead the way? What I’ve read so far is at least a good start to recognizing the beginnings of an energy revolution.
May 3rd, 2010 (8:34 pm)For people who can read german a link to a test of the Opel Ampera, they think the Ampera will cost 37000 euro.
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/opel-ampera-im-test_1170226.html
May 4th, 2010 (1:27 am)Hi ICQ,
My data on the average age of cars in Europe concur (but you have to take into account that the second hand market is MORE IMPORTANT than the new car market in many countries of the EU, so my computations were focused on the buyers of new cars, the effects of EVs on the second hand market for cars are an interesting topic … for the next years) and this is the main problem … old cars pollute a lot more than new ones … And, I’m ready to think that the Volt/Ampera (Bob Lutz himself, see the Lyle’s new post, admits that the Volt gen1 is not a model of economy) and the Leaf will be considered as clunkers … in ten years, we have to remember that the main current criticism against cars by the environmentalists is not only that emissions for the ICE are harmful but that the PRODUCTION of current cars is also an important source of CO2. So the need to rethink the conception of personal mobility toward lighter means of individual transportation in general.
BR
JC NPNS
May 4th, 2010 (1:41 am)Thanks Crew, I agree and time will tell, except that it should be easy to build a cost effective infrastructure. If every business and public organization installs say 2 public charging ports, you get it.
BR
JC NPNS
May 4th, 2010 (8:00 pm)Can you show me how a cost effective infrastructure will be created with current technology? Please use raw data.
How will tax revenue and social benevolence/government subsidies be collected and allocated? An electric infrastructure demands that a dramatic shift in tax revenue and/or business benefit expense replace an oil transportation economy.
No small feat.
Please be careful in making projections and avoid making predictions.
May 6th, 2010 (4:39 am)Hi Crew, look at the example of Holland, where a coalition of electricity distributors joined to supply 10,000 charging ports free of charge for their users, in the hope to promote the demand for EVs. This is not a prediction this is a fact.
A lot has to be done, agreed, but a business model similar to the one proposed by betterplace integrating energy distribution, telecommunications, battery leasing and pay as you go with a “nude” affordable car can generate revenues for all its users (State, electricity distributor, charging port owner, car manufacturer, etc.), as Shai Agassi says, it is just a matter of a good organization of already existing technologies. And with the good incentives, the market will follow.
BR,
JC NPNS
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May 6th, 2010 (8:02 pm)Thanks Jean-Charles, for the direction. It looks like the most appealing recharge stations will be the 240v systems. Easy to install, use, and generate revenue if so desired.
My greatest concern is daytime use vs. off peak use. Daytime use requires an intense effort to revamp power generating stations to meet peak demand. Or we’ll just recharge at home and not worry about it too much.
Either way EV’s and EREV’s (for the adventurous high mileage driver) will have viable options for our societies to move forward.
In the US, EV’s don’t make sense. We have a large country and enjoy our driving freedom.
Let’s keep it real.
May 7th, 2010 (5:05 am)Thanks Crew,
As you say our culture, environment (Only 5% of Holland drivers have a private garage, more than 90% always park the car in the street, about 5% use a shared garage.), will play a significant role in the adoption of different kinds of EVs, so different solutions may apply in different contexts.
And I agree with you that an EREV like the Volt or the Ampera is more appealing for individualists like – I think – both of us and many other ones.
BR
JC NPNS