Apr 26

Bob Lutz on How the Chevy Volt Was Born

 

[ad#post_ad]Bob Lutz is the vice chairman of GM and set to retire on May1st.  He is an outspoken highly successful and provocative automotive executive with 50 years of experience in the business who is credited with creating the Chevy Volt.  I had the exciting opportunity to ask many questions of Mr. Lutz during a one hour one-on-one exit interview.  In this first segment he explains how the Volt was born and eventually made it into production.

I wanted to say that I and the GM-Volt readership wanted to thank you for conceiving the Volt concept and for carrying it through to completion, as well as for all the very interesting commentary along the way.
You’re quite welcome. Its an act of love and enthusiasm.

When you first conceived the Volt what was you’re primary intention? Was it just to float an idea out there or did you have production in mind from the very beginning?
I think the very first time I surfaced the thought at the automotive strategy board was for a purely lithium ion powered battery only car, somewhat akin to what Nissan is doing with the Leaf. The more we talked about it the more we realized we didn’t want to live with the range limitations and everybody still had a bad taste in their mouth around here from the EV-1 debacle and the amount of money we lost on that. So there was very little enthusiasm for a pure electric car and there was some hostility also towards lithium ion batteries where the story was that they would never work in an automotive cell.

My desire was to put an electric car concept out there to show the world that unlike the press reports that painted GM as an unfeeling uncaring squanderer of petroleum resources while wonderful Toyota was reinventing the automobile, I just wanted something on the show stand that would show that hey we’re not just thinking of a Prius hybrid here, we’re trying to get gasoline out of the equation entirely.

And then I just couldn’t get enough of a consensus in the company to do that.

Then when Tesla came out with the announcement of the Roadster my point was that if some group of California software guys can make a viable electric car using lithium ion laptop batteries and they can claim a 200 mile range, 0 to 60 in 4 and a half seconds and 140 mph top speed, it seemed to me that we as still the world’s most competent car company, we should be able to do likewise, and I suggested we start talking to Tesla and find out as much as we could.

That’s about when we decided,’ OK alright, lets do a show car.’

Sitting down with John Lauckner he really convinced me that all-electric really wasn’t the way to go, that we should have a small piston engine in it as a ranger extender and that way we could get by with a relative small relatively inexpensive lithium ion battery and people would not be on a tether.

As the owner of several electric vehicles from Segway to Vectrix motor scooters I can tell you that range anxiety in a pure electric vehicle is real. Your range varies so much according to conditions and temperature.

John sketched it out on a pad, then we talked to design and we got going on the original Volt prototype.

Frankly at that point John Laucker and I decided there was nothing about this concept that couldn’t or shouldn’t make it to production.

Our thought was we’ll dazzle everybody with the showcar and once we’ve dazzled everybody with the show car, people will start clamoring for production. That’s exactly how it worked out.

So you actually anticipated the response that it got?
I anticipated half of it. Even my incredibly large expectations were handily exceeded by the response that it got.

How did that reaction affect the company, the people in the company, and the leadership?
I think it changed a lot of minds. Our board of directors contained some technologists on it, for instance Kent Kresa who was formerly CEO of Northrop Grumman. He has always been an advocated of electric propulsion. Northrop Grumman was during the time he was on the Chrysler board, they actually did some lead acid powered electric minivan that was a project they were doing with the defense department. So he’s always been a pusher for advanced technology and he became very vocal and he said there is absolutely nothing he could see that should prevent this company from building this vehicle. He became a very strong ally.

We very quickly did a business case, did some cost estimates, and some investment estimates, a lot of which turned out in retrospect to be somewhat naively optimistic. All in all we were able to put together a credible business case and lay out a credible way of getting car like that into production. There was enough enthusiasm for the concept in the company to carry the day.

I recall Rick Wagoner didn’t announce production until June of 08, was that prior year still in flux as to what would happen?
That was still the year when we were putting the whole thing together. Don’t forget we completely changed the vehicle’s appearance, because the one we had at the auto show looked nice but had a poor drag coefficient. The package was no good the layout of the engine, electric motor, and the generator were all kind of in the wrong place. Then we had to re-execute the car off our global compact car architecture. That whole design development, getting the car with a decent interior package and getting it to look halfway decent, in fact I think very decent. We’re all in love with the way that it looks because it rides so low to the ground and its very sneaky looking.

Then we had to get that drag coefficient down to 0.27 or 0.28. All of that the business plan really was tied in to the drag performance of the car, because if we couldn’t get a good looking car down to .27 or .28 then we weren’t going to get the range and then it would make the acceptability of the car questionable. It all kind of had to come together. It really didn’t come together until we had a winning style.
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This entry was posted on Monday, April 26th, 2010 at 5:41 am and is filed under Original GM-Volt Interviews. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 204


  1. 1
    ECO_Turbo

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:57 am)

    I wish he would have mentioned the dates for those discussions and decisions.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:02 am)

    I remember the concept car, the decision to go to production, and all the exterior changes to achieve lower drag coefficient. I don’t remember, “The package was no good the layout of the engine, electric motor, and the generator were all kind of in the wrong place.”


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    NZDavid

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:05 am)

    God bless Tesla, for making the Volt possible.

    /And the bailout?


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    NZDavid

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:16 am)

    I remember the engine being moved 90 degrees and the rest shifted about, to fit the hood design. there were quite a few threads about it back ‘pre=bailout’ days.

    Remember, when that guy Statik was banging on about GM not having enough money to make it to production, and we all hated him, cause’ deep down we knew he was right? hehehe.

    /I am in a playful mood today.

    Michael: I remember the concept car, the decision to go to production, and all the exterior changes to achieve lower drag coefficient.I don’t remember, “The package was no good the layout of the engine, electric motor, and the generator were all kind of in the wrong place.”  


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    JohnK

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:20 am)

    ” It all kind of had to come together.” That pretty much sums it up. And it DID come together. And I am proud of Bob and everybody in the GM team that had a hand in it, and Lyle, and everybody here!


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:30 am)

    And yet another reason to get off oil:
    http://bioage.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4fbe53ef0133ecf46342970b-popup

    from: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/04/deepwater-20100426.html#more

    And earlier today, I was following a test plug in Prius down the motorway. Boy I would give almost anything to be a test driver over here.

    /Note to GM: If you ever need a test driver for. . . . well, really mild conditions all year round, let me know???????? Although, to be perfectly honest, I might do a Charles Heston when you come to reclaim it, Unless I can, like, buy one then hehehe.


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    Roy H

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:47 am)

    Well, the concept car was dramatic and attention-getting with odd design details. But I never liked it that much. I think the production version is much nicer.

    I will take this opportunity to repeat my belief that GM should make the ICE in the Volt OPTIONAL with existing battery or larger battery replacing the ICE. This would require very little engineering effort and give customers this important choice.


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    Dave G

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:53 am)

    From the article:
    Lyle: So you actually anticipated the response that it got?
    Lutz: I anticipated half of it. Even my incredible large expectations were handily exceeded by the response that it got.

    First, thanks to Lyle for a great site, and a great article today.

    Regarding GM’s expectations for the Volt: Just as they underestimated the response for to the concept, I believe they are also under-estimating production demand. Of course we in the early adopter crowd are exited. But with the range extender, and the fact that it comes from a major car maker, and the $7500 credit, and the MPV5, I believe this car will go mainstream in a big way.

    My prediction: By around 2020, half of all new cars sold will be EREV.


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    Exp_EngTech

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:02 am)

    “Sitting down with Jon Lauckner he really convinced me that all-electric really wasn’t the way to go, that we should have a small piston engine in it as a ranger extender….”

    “Jon sketched it out on a pad, then we talked to design and we got going on the original Volt prototype.”

    I sure hope Jon and GM have preserved that sketch.
    Perhaps GM could scan it and let Lyle post it.


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    Schmeltz

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:09 am)

    I was hoping you would get an exit interview Lyle. This is a good read. Is there more to the interview or was this the whole thing?


  11. 11
    Baltimore17

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:10 am)

    “Our board of directors contained some technologists on it, for instance Kent Kresa who was formerly CEO of Northrop Grumman. He has always been an advocated of electric propulsion. Northrop Grumman was during the time he was on the Chrysler board, they actually did some lead acid powered electric minivan that was a project they were doing with the defense department.”

    Small world. Back in the mid-’90s, Westinghouse Defense did the powertrain for the Chrysler minivan including motor, power electronics and digital controls. A year of so later, Northrop Grumman bought Westinghouse’s defense electronics operations.

    We (I worked on the project at Westinghouse) shipped some number of powertrains to Chrysler. Last I heard, they were sitting in some Chrysler warehouse after they, like GM, shelved their electric vehicle development programs. Probably long ago sent to a landfill.


  12. 12
    demetrius

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:16 am)

    Have you got a video of this interview Lyle?


  13. 13
    Dan Petit

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:28 am)

    This is the interview with Mr. Lutz that is part of American history. Bob Lutz will be written into history as the man who triggered and managed the ways and means for many of our nations’ problems are to be solved. He will also be the one to be known for the reestablishment of the solvency of GM more than anyone else.
    There will be other engineers who will also become more known as contributors for these solutions to these very old and longstanding problems that have faced the world.
    The confidence levels all across the board and all throughout GM to move forward, even with higher production levels, might be the coming news soon, as battery benchmarks for heat tolerance are realized. (Although I think that programming can go a very long way toward the battery manufacturer’s usage specifications compliance requirements).

    For all the various reasons regarding when or if many consumers will or will not be immediately able to buy Volts, one thing I know I am going to try to do is to buy some NewGM stock when it is released. I would really hope most of all to be able to get a stock certificate with the NewGM corporate seal affixed to it, and, also as importantly, to get the signature or autograph of Bob on it “front and center”. I want it because it would represent to me the reemergence of *new* practical ways of thinking America had always been known for down through these several hundred years, and, that reemergence of relentless problem-solving is iconic with both the NewGM corporate seal, and certainly as well with the Volt itself.

    ************************Thank you, Mr. Lutz****************************

    Dan Petit.
    Austin, TX.


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    joe

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:31 am)

    In many years to come, we will look upon those responsible in building the Volt, as great auto innovators. Bob Lutz and his team will be written in the history books as the ones who helped the USA and the rest of the world in getting off the great appetite for oil.

    Thanks Bob Lutz!


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:36 am)

    When can we read the rest of the interview?
    Tom


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    carcus2

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:45 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Loboc

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:52 am)

    Great work, as usual, Lyle. Thanks for keeping the historical record.

    We will need these early years to know where the springboard was that launched USA 2.0!

    The record will show that the bailouts minimized the damage, but, it is folks like Bob Lutz that grabbed the opportunities and did the work.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:55 am)

    For the sake of discussion, I would like to know the weight of the Volts ICE and exhaust system. I would also like to know what the range would be for a lithium ion battery with similar weight. I hope GM has made this analysis. A cost comparison would also be interesting.

    NPNS!


  19. 19
    Red HHR

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:56 am)

    I knew the electric car was inevitable when I used and abused the electric hand held drill. Scaled up I know the power to weight would be awesome. Of course I wondered about the duration of the power. The solution of range extension in the Volt is brilliant. Like a built in extension cord!


  20. 20
    nasaman

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:58 am)

    Lyle, this first segment of your Lutz interview is a masterpiece!* I can’t wait for the remaining installments!!! Even before reading the remainder of this interview it seems to me the entire interview (along with the original 2007 Volt concept and the final 2011 Volt) should one day become an important part of an exhibit on the evolution of automotive design at the Smithsonian.

    (This isn’t at all far-fetched! Hey, everything ever said publicly on Twitter, no matter how trivial or offensive, is now destined for the Library of Congress!)


  21. 21
    Tim Hart

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:03 am)

    I add my thanks to Bob Lutz and the GM team responsible for this great car. And many thanks to our dear friend Lyle for being a major help in pushing it along to completion. Without his efforts and the enthusiasm he was able to demonstrate to GM from the huge success of this site, who knows what might have happened.


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    Rashiid Amul

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:03 am)

    Once again, thank you Mr. Lutz.
    It sounds like we have a lot of people to thank, but it was Bob Lutz that convinced
    the right people to go ahead and build this.

    We helped of course, along with our leader here at GM-Volt.com
    We are approx 6 months away. It has been a long wait. Many of us have been here from the beginning. I think I found this site a few weeks after it was created. From the first news reports, I was hooked. Finally someone built an EV the right way. Once the made perfect sense.
    One that can be plugged in. One that is not on a leash. For it to be GM was even a bigger surprise to me back in the early days. I am happy GM is pulling this off. I am even happier that this car is leapfrogging over the rest.


  23. 23
    Jim in PA

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:24 am)

    I still can’t comprehend that GM was caught by surprise when they wind tunnel tested the Volt concept and it performed poorly. In this advanced age of computer modeling, you’d think that a wind tunnel simulation program should exist where you toss in a 3D CAD shape and see what the results are. Sure, it would only be an approximation and you’d have to fine tune it in the actual tunnel, but something like this would save car companies huge amount of time and dollars, and would let their design department mess around with a lot of body styles with minimal capital investment.


  24. 24
    CorvetteGuy

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:26 am)

    GM has been through a lot and the biggest losers are a couple thousand dealerships that were blown out of the water. That’s history now.

    What I’m hoping for next is getting in early on the NGMCO IPO. I’d like to earn back what I lost on old GM.

    Any chance of getting a ‘heads-up’ when that is going to happen? The IPO that is?


  25. 25
    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:27 am)

    Thanks Lyle,

    Great interview, I do not know how it does when two great personalities like Bob Lutz and you meet. One thing is sure, you both have shown that daring to do what you thought was right can bring to world to a better situation.

    I also agree with nasaman @20 about the exhibit on the evolution of automotive design at the Smithsonian and with Raschiid @ 22 : it has been a long wait but this wait allowed us to better know each other … this is also a precious thing.

    Best regards,

    JC NPNS


  26. 26
    Tagamet

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:28 am)

    NZDavid: I remember the engine being moved 90 degrees and the rest shifted about, to fit the hood design. there were quite a few threads about it back ‘pre=bailout’ days.Remember, when that guy Statik was banging on about GM not having enough money to make it to production, and we all hated him, cause’ deep down we knew he was right? hehehe./I am in a playful mood today.
      

    Now, now, we didn’t ALL hate Statik….. well, yes, we did, but we came to love him (eventually)(lol). You can be very sure that *I* remember those go-arounds! (fondly, actually). Where would a good yin be without a good yang (or maybe closer to Abbot and Costello)! The great part is that now we’re months away from the Volt’s release thanks to Bob and Lyle.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  27. 27
    Jim in PA

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:29 am)

    carcus2: A “one-upsman” over Toyota halo car for PR purposes. Problem is, the Prius is affordable while the volt is not.

    I guess that depends on how much the Volt actually costs, and how you define “affordable.” All indications seem to suggest that a Volt may come in around $30,000 with the government incentive, which is only a couple thousand more than a similarly equipped Prius. Of course, people driving a Cobalt or a Focus would consider neither to be “affordable.” Don’t lose sight of the fact that the Volt was designed as a very nicely appointed car, not as an economy model.


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    Jim in PA

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:33 am)

    What surprises me most is how surprised people are! We’re talking about General Motors here, people; the company that showed how enticing an electric car could be with the EV-1. They were pioneers in the electric car sector… and still are.


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    Jim in PA

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:35 am)

    Exp_EngTech: “Jon sketched it out on a pad, then we talked to design and we got going on the original Volt prototype.”
    I sure hope Jon and GM have preserved that sketch.
    Perhaps GM could scan it and let Lyle post it.

    Best of all would be if the sketch includes stick figure people :)


  30. 30
    Tagamet

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:45 am)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: Thanks Lyle,Great interview, I do not know how it does when two great personalities like Bob Lutz and you meet. One thing is sure, you both have shown that daring to do what you thought was right can bring to world to a better situation.I also agree with nasaman @20 about the exhibit on the evolution of automotive design at the Smithsonian and with Raschiid @ 22 : it has been a long wait but this wait allowed us to better know each other … this is also a precious thing.Best regards,JC NPNS  

    Very well said and every syllable is true.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Jim I

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:54 am)

    Rashiid Amul: Once again, thank you Mr. Lutz.
    It sounds like we have a lot of people to thank, but it was Bob Lutz that convinced
    the right people to go ahead and build this.We helped of course, along with our leader here at GM-Volt.com
    We are approx 6 months away.It has been a long wait.Many of us have been here from the beginning.I think I found this site a few weeks after it was created.From the first news reports, I was hooked.Finally someone built an EV the right way.Once the made perfect sense.
    One that can be plugged in.One that is not on a leash.For it to be GM was even a bigger surprise to me back in the early days.I am happy GM is pulling this off.I am even happier that this car is leapfrogging over the rest.  

    =========================================

    Well Said, Rashiid!

    +1

    :-)


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    Jim I

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:00 am)

    Lyle: Good Work, as usual.

    Mr. Lutz: Thank you. You did good!!!! Enjoy your retirement.

    I would like to also thank everyone here, that helped push GM to make the Volt a production vehicle. It has been a long three years, and the next six months will be a killer, but at least some lucky people will be driving around in “our” car!!! Hopefully the rest of us will be the proud owners shortly after that………..


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    RB

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:04 am)

    Wow, great interview. Thank you Mr Lutz. (The concept still makes my heart beat faster, so it was a great choice for the job it did.) More seriously, it shows that Lyle’s initiative on gm-volt was seriously important to the subsequent move to production.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:07 am)

    Michael: I remember the concept car, the decision to go to production, and all the exterior changes to achieve lower drag coefficient.I don’t remember, “The package was no good the layout of the engine, electric motor, and the generator were all kind of in the wrong place.”  

    =================================

    Michael:

    Bob Boniface told me in NY that the original design had the ICE, the electric motor, and the control electronic all in a row. That was why the hood was so long, and the front wheels pushed so far forward. There was no real engineering done at that point. Don’t forget that the concept was not really functional. Once they got the go-ahead, they started to work out real placement of all the components, working on the aero, and actual parts and chassis components to be used. That was when the current Volt took shape.

    Have Plug – Ready For EREV!


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    srschrier

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:25 am)

    Good commentary and interview. I hope at some point Bob’s other excellent Voltec design project, the Cadillac Converj, is again reconsidered by GM’s board once the Volt’s become established in the marketplace.


  36. 36
    DonC

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:39 am)

    Good journalism Lyle!

    Here is a great short article about Bob Lutz which sums up his major contribution to GM as follows:

    “But if G.M.’s turnaround succeeds, Mr. Lutz may be most remembered for cracking the company’s fossilized structure, leading a coup of designers and engineers against the M.B.A.’s and brand managers who had called the shots on car development for decades.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/automobiles/21LUTZ.html?scp=3&sq=bob%20lutz&st=cse

    Half the battle is won. GM is making great cars. Now it needs to step up the reliability.


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    Sasparilla

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:49 am)

    Great article/interview, can’t wait to see the rest of the interview pieces.


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    RogerE333

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:50 am)

    I will probably be down-rated for this, but it would be nice to see Ferdinand Porsche get some credit also. I don’t truly see anything all that innovative in the overall Volt concept, although the technology (batteries, motors, speed controls) has obviously come a long way since 1901.

    [...in 1901 introduced the 'Mixte' vehicle/transmission concept: instead of a massive battery-pack, an internal combustion engine built by the German firm, Daimler, was fitted to a generator to drive the electric hub motors and (for vehicle reliability) a small battery pack. This way Porsche had created the first petroleum electric hybrid vehicle on record...]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche


  39. 39
    Frank D

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:58 am)

    The Volt had to be supported by a true “car guy” like Mr. Lutz. Thanks Bob!


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    Jean-Charles Jacquemin

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    Tagamet:
    Very well said and every syllable is true.Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    Thanks Tag,
    BTW I broke my Opel Corsa on a security rail trying to avoid a Mini that was not behaving well, the new one I got in replacement has a performance of 76,3 mpg on the combined cycle (88,3 mpg or 3,7l of diesel/100km on the extra urban cycle, Source : http://media.gm.com/content/media/gb/en/press_kits/press_kit_details.brand_vauxhall.html/content/Pages/presskits/gb/en/Vauxhall/03_29_corsa_Press_Kit) with a particulate filter. I made some calculations on what the price the Volt or the Opel Ampera should be to be competitive with this car : at current Western European fossil fuel prices, … well it should be below 25,000 € and if fossil fuel price double it is still below 30,000 €. But as we all know on this site, price or cost of the car is only a part of the equation, to get rid of oil is another that has its own value.

    JC NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:07 am)

    RogerE333: I will probably be down-rated for this, but it would be nice to see Ferdinand Porsche get some credit also.I don’t truly see anything all that innovative in the overall Volt concept, although the technology (batteries, motors, speed controls) has obviously come a long way since 1901.[...in 1901 introduced the 'Mixte' vehicle/transmission concept: instead of a massive battery-pack, an internal combustion engine built by the German firm, Daimler, was fitted to a generator to drive the electric hub motors and (for vehicle reliability) a small battery pack. This way Porsche had created the first petroleum electric hybrid vehicle on record...]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Porsche  

    It would seem fairer to give him credit for a *Concept* design, but the Volt will be the first that will have made it to the mass production level. I believe that he made 300 “chassis” but there’s no mention of anyone actually purchasing one (that I can find). Even the Volt needed technology to “catch up” to the concept, in order to get the wheels on the road.
    +1 for the history reference though. :-)

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    LauraM

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:10 am)

    Interesting interview. This is why I believe that Lutz was an asset to GM. He has vision. Which is rare.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:16 am)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin:
    Thanks Tag,
    BTW I broke my Opel Corsa on a security rail trying to avoid a Mini that was not behaving well, the new one I got in replacement has a performance of 76,3 mpg on the combined cycle (88,3 mpg or 3,7l of diesel/100km on the extra urban cycle, Source : http://media.gm.com/content/media/gb/en/press_kits/press_kit_details.brand_vauxhall.html/content/Pages/presskits/gb/en/Vauxhall/03_29_corsa_Press_Kit) with a particulate filter. I made some calculations on whatthe price the Volt or the Opel Ampera should be to be competitive with this car: at current Western European fossil fuel prices, … well it should be below 25,000 € and if fossil fuel price double it is still below 30,000 €. But as we all know on this site, price or cost of the car is only a part of the equation, to get rid of oil is another that has its own value.JC NPNS  

    I’m confused, if you own one of those Opels, why not give us your observations on fuel mileage? I’m not doubting the numbers, it would just be nice to have actual first hand observations.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:16 am)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin:
    Thanks Tag,
    BTW I broke my Opel Corsa on a security rail trying to avoid a Mini that was not behaving well, the new one I got in replacement has a performance of 76,3 mpg on the combined cycle (88,3 mpg or 3,7l of diesel/100km on the extra urban cycle, Source : http://media.gm.com/content/media/gb/en/press_kits/press_kit_details.brand_vauxhall.html/content/Pages/presskits/gb/en/Vauxhall/03_29_corsa_Press_Kit) with a particulate filter. I made some calculations on whatthe price the Volt or the Opel Ampera should be to be competitive with this car: at current Western European fossil fuel prices, … well it should be below 25,000 € and if fossil fuel price double it is still below 30,000 €. But as we all know on this site, price or cost of the car is only a part of the equation, to get rid of oil is another that has its own value.JC NPNS  

    Wow, I hope for nasaman’s sake that the Ampera hits production as well as the Volt. And you are certainly right that most of the folks here are on record that “it’s not all about the price”!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:18 am)

    Eco_Turbo:
    I’m confused, if you own one of those Opels, why not give us your observations on fuel mileage? I’m not doubting the numbers, it would just be nice to have actual first hand observations.  

    I thought that those *were* his observations. (I’m just sorry that he “broke” his other one!)
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:28 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:33 am)

    carcus2: Contrast Maximum Bob’s “flamboyant /leapfrog /budget be damned” approach to beating the prius to something more reasonable. . . . like what Ford’s doing.Solid engineering, where small butsteady improvements in weight reduction and engine technologywill soon have an ecoboost powered fiesta or focus for less money that incorporates all the latest in tech features (i.e. opensourcing to allow high interactivity between driver/car/smartphone) that produce a high mpg cutting edge-techy AFFORDABLE product that will sell en masse./when Ford then incorporates auto start/stop into these vehicles, I suspect it’ll be very close to or even beating the prius on mpg.—————
    Ford Joins the App Generation
    http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/ford-joins-the-app-generation/?src=tptwFord’s Plan For Better MPG: More EcoBoost Engines and Lighter Cars
    http://reviews.carreview.com/blog/fords-plan-for-better-mpg-more-ecoboost-engines-and-lighter-cars/  

    It’s really great to see Ford making progress, too!
    Oh, and as you noted, Bob *defines* contrast – and we’re the better for it!
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:44 am)

    (click to show comment)


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:51 am)

    carcus2: …/Ford — up again today at 14.46.

    Again, congrats to Ford!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:53 am)

    Jim in PA: We’re talking about General Motors here, people; the company that showed how enticing an electric car could be with the EV-1. They were pioneers in the electric car sector… and still are.

    The pioneers and executioners all in one…


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    Shawn Marshall

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:56 am)

    Thank you Bob Lutz for the Volt and the AGW crock-a-poo. Both priceless.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:58 am)

    I’ll echo the other comments thanking both participants.

    Mr. Lutz: Enjoy your retirement. I’m certain that you’ll go down as one of the key participants in a major revolution in transport. Thank you.

    Lyle: Thank you for this website, and the push it is giving this car.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:00 am)

    I think Lutz has an eye for style and he’s a great salesman, but a top tier auto company exec needs to be a band leader.

    I consider Mulally a skilled conductor who gets every member of the orchestra to play to the best of their ability and provides a score that allows them the opportunity to do so.

    Lutz is the kind of guy who likes to use the orchestra as a back-drop while he stands up front and blows his own horn.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:01 am)

    Eco_Turbo:
    I’m confused, if you own one of those Opels, why not give us your observations on fuel mileage? I’m not doubting the numbers, it would just be nice to have actual first hand observations.  

    Tagamet:
    I thought that those *were* his observations. (I’m just sorry that he “broke” his other one!)
    Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    My observations concur. I just wanted to show that the press release was correct, note that those are Imperial gallons… !!! that is the reason I gave the number of liters per 100km. In town my mileage depends on the intensity of the traffic as the board computer shows it. The worse I do when traffic is intense and it is cold, the mileage is around 4.75l/100km.

    Let put this in US mpg :
    Combined cycle : 63 mpg(US)
    Extra urban : 73 mpg(US) and sometimes when I’m concentrated on my driving to save gas on the highways and the road has not too much hills : 80 mpg (US)
    In intense urban traffic : 60 mpg (US)

    But the car is new, I hope those data do not deteriorate in the future.

    best regards,

    JC NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:02 am)

    Matthew_B: Jim in PA: We’re talking about General Motors here, people; the company that showed how enticing an electric car could be with the EV-1. They were pioneers in the electric car sector… and still are.

    The pioneers and executioners all in one…

    And *we’ll* be the jury.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:05 am)

    Jean-Charles Jacquemin: My observations concur. I just wanted to show that the press release was correct, note that those are Imperial gallons… !!! that is the reason I gave the number of liters per 100km. In town my mileage depends on the intensity of the traffic as the board computer shows it. The worse I do when traffic is intense and it is cold, the mileageis around 4.75l/100km.Let put this in US mpg :
    Combined cycle : 63 mpg(US)
    Extra urban : 73 mpg(US) and sometimes when I’m concentrated on my driving to save on the highways and the road has not too much hills : 80 mpg (US)
    In intense urban traffic : 60 mpg (US)But the car is new, I hope those data do not deteriorate in the future.best regards,JC NPNS  

    Wow, thanks! Pardon me now, while I go drool for a while (g).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:09 am)

    joe: In many years to come, we will look upon those responsible in building the Volt, as great auto innovators. Bob Lutz and his team will be written in the history books as the ones who helped the USA and the rest of the world in getting off the great appetite for oil.

    Yes, +1.

    I wonder if anyone will remember gm-volt.com.

    It seems GM reads some of what we write here. This may be the first time a development team has had the advantage of an open forum like this to test their ideas and get feedback. I wonder if other high profile development projects could use the same model. Of course, you would need someone as dedicated as Lyle to make it work.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:14 am)

    Dave G:
    Yes, +1.I wonder if anyone will remember gm-volt.com.It seems GM reads some of what we write here.This may be the first time a development group has had the advantage of an open forum like this to test their ideas and get feedback.I wonder if other high profile development projects could use the same model.Of course, you would need someone as dedicated as Lyle to make it work.   Emphasis added.

    I think you put your finger right on “the rub”. How likely is it that there are two of Lyle? Maybe cloning is the answer?

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:21 am)

    NZDavid: And yet another reason to get off oil:
    http://bioage.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c4fbe53ef0133ecf46342970b-popup

    Yes. A picture is worth a thousand words:
    6a00d8341c4fbe53ef0133ecf46342970b-800wi


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    Streetlight

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:22 am)

    I must say the GM promo ad running right now (like FOX & ESPN) comes across really really well. In the ad – [think IPO] Whitacre justifies GM’s bailout by its early payback. Showcasing GM’s 2010 lineup flying off the lots creating lots of new jobs. Best of all…VOLT now and forever takes on flagship rank.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:25 am)

    its quite depressing still that some entrepeneurial people at Tesla had to do the concept first before GM realised it was viable. Anyone who knows anything about batteries knows that lithium ion batteries weigh a LOT less than lead acid / NiMH / NiCad and for a decade have meant cheap, lightweight, reliable power for portable products. Why they couldn’t see of putting them in a car I don’t know. There’s still not a single plugin prius type car on the market using LiIon / LiFePo batteries. There’s these big car companies and they are like oil tankers… they have no ability to change direction quickly… or see what the small companies are doing. Glad to see that Bob at least saw it and has begun to turn the oil tanker around…


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:34 am)

    ps. on the Who killed the electric car they did point out that electric + petrol hybrids were available in 1908 or something … that in the early days of automobile transport that electric cars were more popular than petrol ones… then for 100 YEARS the auto companies did very little to change how we drive, and still the Model T gets about the same mpg as the average american car – 20mpg… the car got heavier as the engine got more efficient – that is all. The human race is imhfo f***** stupid and rather wasteful… and we have wasted more than half the oil this planet has been endowned with


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:38 am)

    Dave G:
    Yes.A picture is worth a thousand words:
      

    Let’s pray that the robotic sub can get that thing capped.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:46 am)

    http://www.cleangreenguy.com/news/gm-rd-develops-and-demonstrates-strontium-doped-perovskite-catalysts-rivaling-platinum-catalyst

    Well, let me try a different link. Having trouble posting.

    Electrification is not the only research making news at GM recently.

    New precious-metal-free catalyst primarily benefits diesel engines, may make thousands-per-car cost reduction possible.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:46 am)

    carcus2: A “one-upsman” over Toyota halo car for PR purposes. Problem is, the Prius is affordable while the volt is not.

    Volt would have indeed been affordable if the “nicely under $30,000” goal hadn’t been abandoned.

    Starting out with a less expensive configuration to establish EREV, then build it up over time would have attracted far more marketshare.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:48 am)

    mark yates: ps. on the Who killed the electric car they did point out that electric + petrol hybrids were available in 1908 or something … that in the early days of automobile transport that electric cars were more popular than petrol ones… then for 100 YEARS the auto companies did very little to change how we drive, and still the Model T gets about the same mpg as the average american car – 20mpg… the car got heavier as the engine got more efficient – that is all.The human race is imhfo f***** stupid and rather wasteful… and we have wasted more than half the oil this planet has been endowned with   

    As I understand it, the original ICE cars were pretty unpopular *until the advent of the electric starter*.
    It sounds like you think that car makers should try to make what’s good for people as opposed to making what people want (I know, I know, can of worms now re-opened). Then again, GM made what people wanted and went bankrupt (though the two may not be linked).
    Seems like there is plenty of “blame” to go around – I’m just not sure that it all rests on the mfg’s shoulders.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Sasparilla

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:49 am)

    Tagamet: Let’s pray that the robotic sub can get that thing capped.

    Here, here. +1


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:50 am)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): http://www.cleangreenguy.com/news/gm-rd-develops-and-demonstrates-strontium-doped-perovskite-catalysts-rivaling-platinum-catalystWell, let me try a different link.Having trouble posting.

    Well, that’s a relief. I thought I was going to have to resurrect James K. Polk. :-)


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:52 am)

    This is what happens when someone invokes the “P” word:

    john1701a:
    Volt would have indeed been affordable if the “nicely under $30,000” goal hadn’t been abandoned.Starting out with a less expensive configuration to establish EREV, then build it up over time would have attracted far more marketshare.  

    Let this be a lesson to all.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:00 pm)

    mark yates: …The human race is imhfo ***** stupid and rather wasteful…

    IMHO, the issue isn’t as related to stupidity (lack of intelligence) as it is to ignorance (lack of info). Not everyone is concerned about the same issues, because not everyone has the same information. If we were truly stupid, we’d never have been able to *have* an industrial revolution. Everyone hasn’t connected the same dots, because not everyone has even SEEN the same dots. JMO.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:01 pm)

    carcus2

    What happened to Caucus1?


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:08 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    What happened to Caucus1?  

    caRcus1 was escorted out of the building, so say hello to carcus2

    /every once in a while, you just have to re-invent yourself . . . . . don’t expect much change though
    – carcus2, April 2010


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:13 pm)

    Carcus 2

    “Problem is, the Prius is affordable while the volt is not.”

    Pray tell what are the 2 costs so I can compare?

    Level of difficulty..no guesses, real world number only, please quote source for Volt as I have not seen it, and please ensure you are comparing apples to apples, the Prius and volt have the same options.

    Looking forward to actually seeing the numbers. Otherwise you are makeing a factual statement on an estimate, and a waste of time. (trolling)

    Mitch


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    Dave G:
    Yes, +1.I wonder if anyone will remember gm-volt.com.It seems GM reads some of what we write here.This may be the first time a development team has had the advantage of an open forum like this to test their ideas and get feedback.I wonder if other high profile development projects could use the same model.Of course, you would need someone as dedicated as Lyle to make it work.  

    ================================

    I think that the GM people read a lot more than “some of what we write here”…………..

    In NY, they knew most of us by our gm-volt.com names!!!!


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:21 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:24 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:30 pm)

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:38 pm)

    It was really interesting to see the Volt front and center in the Whitacre TV commercial this weekend. Which I saw several times, and I don’t watch that much TV, LOL. I don’t think that it is any surprise to longtime GM-Volt.com bloggers that the Volt has become THE halo car for GM, not only with the public, but with the government agencies and politicos who lent GM life support in it’s hour of crisis.

    It makes all of you who have followed this so closely for something like 3 years look absolutely prescient and forward looking. Well done to all. Take a minute to pat yourselves on the back for me if you would. If I knew how to reach out through the virtual world and do it myself I would. maybe in a few more years, haha.

    LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:48 pm)

    Jim I:
    ================================I think that the GM people read a lot more than “some of what we write here”…………..In NY, they knew most of us by our gm-volt.com names!!!!  

    That is so incredibly cool (and yes, it felt great).
    Did anyone get a picture of the VNT-1??? If so, I could “adapt” it to show the entire VNT.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): carcus2

    What happened to Caucus1?

    I think that I saw him with Jackson (g).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:52 pm)

    carcus2: Contrast Maximum Bob’s “flamboyant /leapfrog /budget be damned” approach to beating the prius to something more reasonable. . . . like what Ford’s doing.

    You have some good points. But essentially I think it’s unfair to hold Lutz responsible for areas he was never in control of. Remember he was never the CEO. Given that he wasn’t, his ability to make the huge changes he did is amazing.

    On the engineering front, if you’re behind the technology curve with parallel hybrids your choice is either to continue playing catch up or push a new technology forward. Given what the strengths and weaknesses were, both Ford and GM played their cars correctly, IMHO. The fact that they played different cards just represented that they had different starting points.

    Also keep in mind that we have a long way to go here. For starters, GM hasn’t abandoned parallel technologies. Given that when you start thinking about which vehicles use gas, moving from a Prius to a Volt is not nearly as big a deal as moving from a 15 MPG truck to a 25 MPG truck. So GM like has a lot of opportunity. We’ll see where that goes. I think GM is also ahead of Ford both in bio-fuels and hydrogen so again, we’ll see where that is headed.

    Finally, while Ford is really putting out some good product, GM to me will have a better lineup going forward, and in the car business product is really the name of the game. So while it wouldn’t surprise me if Ford continues to gain market share in the short run, I’d bet on GM doing slightly better in the long run. Now one thing which may change this is that while Ford has upped its reliability GM still has a ways to go on this score. Not saying it hasn’t moved in the right direction, it just hasn’t moved as far as Ford has. To pick up market share and build on the new product GM has to make the product as reliable as Toyota’s, Ford’s, and Honda’s.

    carcus2: I consider Mulally a skilled conductor who gets every member of the orchestra to play to the best of their ability and provides a score that allows them the opportunity to do so.

    This is somewhat unfair in that we don’t know what Lutz the bandleader would have been like because he was never given the baton. But I’ll grant you that Mulally has been so terrific it would be hard for anyone to do as well. We’ll just never know.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (12:58 pm)

    There’s just not a lot of time to be jackin’ around with halo cars. We (spoken in many languages) need some real, affordable solutions — real quick.

    If You Think China Auto Sales Are Growing Fast Now, Just Wait
    http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10004637/china-us-neck-and-neck-in-auto-sales-but-not-for-long/

    The Next Crisis: Prepare for Peak Oil
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704140104575057260398292350.html


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:00 pm)

    carcus2:
    …and if GM sells a small volume ofVoltsat a losswill you have then “seen the numbers”?  

    A couple things need to happen:

    - Volt pricing is announced
    - You can configure a Volt on the Chevrolet web site (with pricing)
    - You can order a Volt as configured at a dealership
    - You can take delivery within 4-6 weeks like any other Chevrolet

    Until all that happens, there is no reason to compare a speculated (or initial loss-leader) price to anything else. We need the out-the-door real price.

    I also (as both carcus1 and carcus2) doubt that all these things will happen this year. However, we should have a price announcement soon to talk about. I believe they said May.

    Meanwhile, Nissan took my $99 pre-order and gave a price to expect on delivery. I have no friggin clue when the delivery date is.

    tick-tock, tick-tock GM.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:00 pm)

    Noel Park: It makes all of you who have followed this so closely for something like 3 years look absolutely prescient and forward looking.

    Or average and otherwise unexceptional! But +1 anyway.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:00 pm)

    Noel Park: ..It makes all of you who have followed this so closely for something like 3 years look absolutely prescient and forward looking. Well done to all. Take a minute to pat yourselves on the back for me if you would. If I knew how to reach out through the virtual world and do it myself I would. maybe in a few more years, haha.

    LJGTVWOTR!! NMST!

    You’re not exactly a newbie here either, Noel! Maybe in a couple of years we can all drive our Volts to a nice spot and have a gm-volt.com Volt RALLY. Now *that* would be sweet! We could get all, ahem, charged up, and have a *silent* 40 mile cruise – hopefully to a mall or Rib-house that has bunches of plugs installed by then. I hear northern Calif is nice (and they can use the tourists).
    Hey, a guy can dream….
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:06 pm)

    Tagamet:
    You’re not exactly a newbie here either, Noel! Maybe in a couple of years we can all drive our Volts to a nice spot and have a gm-volt.com Volt RALLY. Now *that* would be sweet! We could get all, ahem, charged up, and have a *silent* 40 mile cruise – hopefully to a mall or Rib-house that has bunches of plugs installed by then. I hear northern Calif is nice (and they can use the tourists).
    Hey, a guy can dream….
    Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    Agreed. Noel and I got on board around the same time.

    Now, that rally would be awesome to do. But I think a few years is right.
    Not all of us will be able to buy one right away.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:09 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): New precious-metal-free catalyst primarily benefits diesel engines, may make thousands-per-car cost reduction possible.

    800rpm 2-cylinder 2-stroke Diesel electric Volts would totally rock!
    I’m just sayin’, is all. :)


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:13 pm)

    carcus2: There’s just nota lot of time to be jackin’ around with halo cars.We (spoken in many languages) need some real, affordable solutions — real quick.If You Think China Are Growing Fast Now, Just Wait
    http://industry.bnet.com/auto/10004637/china-us-neck-and-neck-in-auto-sales-but-not-for-long/The Next Crisis: Prepare for Peak Oil
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704140104575057260398292350.html  

    OR. The US Government will ban drilling in the Gulf of Mexico for a while. This will make oil pricing peak way before oil peaks.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:13 pm)

    Reading this first segment of the Lutz interview makes my creative juices flow. Enough that I want to address a comment to any readers associated with global carmakers OTHER THAN General Motors…

    Swallow your pride. Just long enough to have your best/brightest drive train engineers carefully review & critique the Voltec EREV design. Unless I’m mistaken, they’ll confirm that Voltec is truly a major leap forward in automotive propulsion, which could motivate your senior management to look into licensing parts of (or all of) the Voltec EREV design for use as an advanced drive train in new vehicles of your own design. And as inducement, consider that Sputnik ignited the space race between two major powers. But the superior engineering design of the US Space Shuttle ultimately overcame the Soviet government’s enormous national pride, which finally resulted in…

    Buran%20vs%20shuttle%20large.jpg

    The Soviet shuttle (“Buran”) actually flew several times and was shelved because of the USSR’s economic collapse: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/models/vault/Buran/Buran%2520vs%2520shuttle%2520large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2815526&h=1133&w=930&sz=184&tbnid=O2lVCyGiu3r1uM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drussian%2Bspace%2Bshuttle&usg=__j6mrychobQ5aomh3rngP2qlxniY=&ei=R5LVS_7-AYWW8AThnomoDw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=9&ct=image&ved=0CCQQ9QEwCA


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:22 pm)

    Rashiid Amul: Now, that rally would be awesome to do. But I think a few years is right.
    Not all of us will be able to buy one right away.

    Exactly, and on top of that, availability will likely be an even greater hurdle. Personally, if the Volt is even *close* to affordable (a very interpretable term), I’d happily fly, drive, walk, crawl, to the dealer that had one available!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:28 pm)

    nasaman: Reading this first segment of the Lutz interview makes my creative juices flow. Enough that I want to address a comment to any readers associated with global carmakers OTHER THAN General Motors…Swallow your pride. Just long enough to have your best/brightest drive train engineers carefully review & critique the Voltec EREV design. Unless I’m mistaken, they’ll confirm that Voltec is truly a major leap forward in automotive propulsion, which could motivate your senior management to look into licensing parts of (or all of) the Voltec EREV design for use as an advanced drive train in new vehicles of your own design. And as inducement, consider that Sputnik ignited the space race between two major powers. But the superior engineering design of the US Space Shuttle ultimately overcame the Soviet government’s enormous national pride, which finally resulted in… The Soviet shuttle (“Buran”) actually flew several times and was shelved because of the USSR’s economic collapse: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/models/vault/Buran/Buran%2520vs%2520shuttle%2520large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2815526&h=1133&w=930&sz=184&tbnid=O2lVCyGiu3r1uM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drussian%2Bspace%2Bshuttle&usg=__j6mrychobQ5aomh3rngP2qlxniY=&ei=R5LVS_7-AYWW8AThnomoDw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=9&ct=image&ved=0CCQQ9QEwCA  

    All good points, nasaman, but what does it say to the mfg’s that the USA will now have to buy rides on the Soviet rockets?!? Argh.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:29 pm)

    I’ve been saying this all along. That God for these little upstart Electric companies like Tesla, Aptera, Phoenix, BYD, Coda etc…. The big auto manufacturers (GM included) really didn’t want to go down the EV road until they HAD to. These upstarts scared the big guys enough to start developing their own EV’s. They were afraid they would wake up one day and a little guy like Tesla would suddenly have 10% of the market share and they would be playing catch up again! GM did the right thing with the Volt program and it will hopefully make them relevant again because for a while it wasn’t looking like they had a bright future at all. The Volt (and Voltec technology) will put GM back in the limelight.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:38 pm)

    Tagamet:
    All good points, nasaman, but what does it say to the mfg’s that the USA will now have to buy rides on the Soviet rockets?!? Argh. Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    …that they (the licensee) could well be the successor/beneficiary of Voltec technology IF GM CAN’T FIND A WAY TO MAKE THE VOLTEC SELLING PRICE COMPETITIVE —BUT THEY CAN???


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:43 pm)

    Jim in PA: I still can’t comprehend that GM was caught by surprise when they wind tunnel tested the Volt concept and it performed poorly.In this advanced age of computer modeling, you’d think that a wind tunnel simulation program should exist where you toss in a 3D CAD shape and see what the results are. Sure, it would only be an approximation and you’d have to fine tune it in the actual tunnel, but something like this would save car companies huge amount of time and dollars, and would let their design department mess around with a lot of body styles with minimal capital investment.  

    There is a huge difference between a prototype and a concept. Concept is like an artist’s rendering in metal. Prototype is a design exercise to work out things like aero and placement of components.

    Yes, they could have run some simulations, but, what is the point at the concept stage? You gotta sell the idea first. The practical and financial matters come later.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:44 pm)

    PS to my post #93:

    NASA was never able to get the huge cost out of Shuttle launches, which was its downfall!

    …And there’s an important lesson here too: Voltec, like Shuttle, MUST be competitive!


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (1:49 pm)

    nasaman: Tagamet:
    All good points, nasaman, but what does it say to the mfg’s that the USA will now have to buy rides on the Soviet rockets?!? Argh. Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS

    …that they (the licensee) could well be the successor/benefactor of Voltec technology IF GM CAN’T FIND A WAY TO MAKE THE SELLING PRICE COMPETITIVE —BUT THEY CAN???

    To me, this is *most* important to GM, so that they set the price as they have said all along – like a CHEVY!
    Once they get Gen II wheels on the road, they could think of licensing Gen I tech (IMHO).
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (2:16 pm)

    nasaman: Reading this first segment of the Lutz interview makes my creative juices flow. Enough that I want to address a comment to any readers associated with global carmakers OTHER THAN General Motors…Swallow your pride. Just long enough to have your best/brightest drive train engineers carefully review & critique the Voltec EREV design. Unless I’m mistaken, they’ll confirm that Voltec is truly a major leap forward in automotive propulsion, which could motivate your senior management to look into licensing parts of (or all of) the Voltec EREV design for use as an advanced drive train in new vehicles of your own design. And as inducement, consider that Sputnik ignited the space race between two major powers. But the superior engineering design of the US Space Shuttle ultimately overcame the Soviet government’s enormous national pride, which finally resulted in…The Soviet shuttle (“Buran”) actually flew several times and was shelved because of the USSR’s economic collapse: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/models/vault/Buran/Buran%2520vs%2520shuttle%2520large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2815526&h=1133&w=930&sz=184&tbnid=O2lVCyGiu3r1uM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drussian%2Bspace%2Bshuttle&usg=__j6mrychobQ5aomh3rngP2qlxniY=&ei=R5LVS_7-AYWW8AThnomoDw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=9&ct=image&ved=0CCQQ9QEwCA  (Quote)

    Shuttle vs Buran, there’s one difference I’m aware of.
    A “Production” Buran was to have had a “one use” engine that could be used (just one time) to fly around and realign for a second shot at the runway.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (2:28 pm)

    carcus2: Oh I see. The almighty mitch has deemed discussion of the Volt’s price off limits. /All hail mitch.  (Quote)

    Wow…

    All I am saying is stated something as a fact..I want to see the figures..discussion is fine, where do i ay it si off limits, I am asking you to back up your comments with a source, say the volt is not affordable…tell me what is the price? I do not want a guess, I have seen them all in the years following this site, so I know the guesses and the conjecture…

    I know what a fully equiped prius is worth, you say the prius is affordable, the volt is not, you MUST KNOW the price to make such a statement, otherwise you are simply passing along conjecture.

    if such is the case, then I can predict the PLUG in VOLT will be a better value than a comparably equipped PLUG in Prius , you know the one that gets 40 miles AER, and operated at any speed in all electric mode…the one that is comparable to the VOLT…oh wait…that’s right..there ISN’T one yet EITHER…

    I have never said anything bad about a prius ather than I think its fugly, alternative source propulsion is of great interest to me…

    YOU made the comparison, all I ask is YOU back it up…

    as to selling it at a loss..hey Toyota did for the irst 2-3 years..so not like introducing something radical makes money everytime…

    meanwhile feel free to worship..send me a virgin or 2, and in honour of the good capt…a bottle of rum if you please…

    lighten up trou d’queue


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (2:39 pm)

    Interesting article, Lyle. A fun read.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    From my and maybe many others perspective GM is to be commended for coming back with another electric car after the experience with the first one.

    Tesla ( those computer geeks) opened a lot of eyes.

    Bob Lutz deserves the credit to get GM back in the game with this car. He and GM has got the range extender idea right to make the electric car a real winner … for Mr. Lutz, GM, and all of US. I see the success of this car as just the beginning of an electric vehicle revolution to produce lower emission standards, lower dependence on foreign oil and regenerate the car companies.

    I am ready to buy “my Volt” when they become available. And I believe more and more GM will need a 24/7 assembly plan to meet the expected demand. ( now that is a problem that should be fun to solve) :+}


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:20 pm)

    mitch: if such is the case, then I can predict the PLUG in VOLT will be a better value than a comparably equipped PLUG in Prius

    Again with the similar history to Two-Mode.

    Better value doesn’t mean much of consumers can’t afford to purchase it.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:23 pm)

    ____________________________________________________________________
    The most + comment votes I’ve ever seen. In that spirit:

    +1 Lyle

    +1 Tesla

    +1 John Lauckner

    +2 Captain Lutz
    _______________________________________________________________________


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:43 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): http://www.cleangreenguy.com/news/gm-rd-develops-and-demonstrates-strontium-doped-perovskite-catalysts-rivaling-platinum-catalyst Electrification is not the only research making news at GM recently.New precious-metal-free catalyst primarily benefits diesel engines, may make thousands-per-car cost reduction possible.  

    DaveP:
    800rpm 2-cylinder 2-stroke Diesel electric Volts would totally rock!
    I’m just sayin’, is all.   

    Don’t know about 2-cycle (there are limits to what you can mitigate with a catalytic converter), but it does seem to make some kind of diesel-powered Ampera more likely, doesn’t it?


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:45 pm)

    Lyle,

    You should consider writing a book on the Volt from your unique perspective once it is out on the road. Make an iPad-friendly version of it so you can include various video links, etc. And since it’s my idea, put me down at Buyer #1 and a signed copy, please!


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:51 pm)

    mark yates: its quite depressing still that some entrepeneurial people at Tesla had to do the concept first before GM realised it was viable. Anyone who knows anything about batteries knows that lithium ion batteries weigh a LOT less than lead acid / NiMH / NiCad and for a decade have meant cheap, lightweight, reliable power for portable products. Why they couldn’t see of putting them in a car I don’t know. There’s still not a single plugin prius type car on the market using LiIon / LiFePo batteries. There’s these big car companies and they are like oil tankers… they have no ability to change direction quickly… or see what the small companies are doing. Glad to see that Bob at least saw it and has begun to turn the oil tanker around…  (Quote)

    This is true and has been for a long time. The car companies are very big by the nature of high volume automotive manufacturing and big companies, especially large industrial companies, tend to more very slowly. I do think this is changing and is one of the primary challenges, and opportunities, facing GM going forward. American culture tends to do well in the global market in a high tech, rapidly changing environment. Moving to EV’s is a move in this direction. I hope GM is aware of this and is prepping their corporate culture to be up to the task. There are certainly limiting factors that will continue to be at play in the EV automotive market that don’t apply to software and computers but the future of automotive manufacturing will be much different from the past.

    I think the successful companies will be able to achieve 2-year new model design & development cycles from concept to production. We will also see significant year over year in model advances, mostly with batteries, control software, power electronics, and communications. The times, they are a’changing.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:52 pm)

    mitch: Level of difficulty..no guesses, real world number only, please quote source for Volt as I have not seen it, and please ensure you are comparing apples to apples, the Prius and volt have the same options.
    Looking forward to actually seeing the numbers. Otherwise you are makeing a factual statement on an estimate, and a waste of time. (trolling)

    The issue of any comparison is you can’t compare the two……yet. One doesn’t exist and to ask for actual numbers knowing there have not been any published is just wrong.
    So as a one answer to your question here’s the “Affordability” of a Prius.

    http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/trims-prices.html
    Prius III: $23,800
    Prius IV: $26,600
    Prius V: $28,070

    No incentives applied to meet this “Affordability” criteria.
    Why is one considerd “Trolling” when a valid argument is presented?


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:56 pm)

    Lyle – Good get.

    Mr. Lutz – Thanks again. Enjoy your post-GM days. Will miss your observations (content and delivery) about the carbiz and the environment. Well done. Also, thanks for your service in the military.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:56 pm)

    nasaman: The Soviet shuttle (“Buran”) actually flew

    several times and was shelved because of the USSR’s economic collapse

    Sheez I gotta retype all this.. I think its getting blocked because of links to a russian web site.

    Sidetracking a bit into space history.

    The Buran actually made it into space once, when it landed it had severe damage to the heat tiles but was never allowed to fly again for economic reasons.. the collapse of the USSR.

    Reagan decided to destroy the USSR thru economic competition and he combined two programs, The Suttle and Star Wars.. Since the early ’70s studies had said the shuttle did not make economic sense, not enough
    traffic to justify a space truck, but NASA wanted the jobs desperately.. Reagan proposed space based Star Wars against heavy criticism (it still continues to this day) regarding cost and technical difficulty.

    The Soviets put two and two together and decided Reagan was serious about this, they decided to compete againts this new threat. They developed the Buran shuttle and the giant Energya launcher system, and they also developed the Polyus Death Star to ride the Energya into orbit. All this cost an immense amount of money.

    The Death Star was launched in 1987 but failed to reach orbit, the last crucial step was separation from the Energya, flip 180 degress and ignite its rockets for orbital insertion.. but it flipped 360 degrees instead and fired itself back down into the athmosphere. It is rumored internal software sabotage was the cause, the Gorbachev faction did not want the Polyus launched because it would anger the Americans with this severe provocation (you really dont want an 80 ton laser battlestation equipped with seeker rockets in orbit above the US), but the more aggresive factions in the Politburo wanted it launched.. after all vasts amount of money had been spent. The worst example of space weaponization still.

    To this day the Energya is still the most advanced and capable heavy launcher ever developed.. parts of it are still in production and use.

    If you want to see pictures do a google on “Soviet Space Battle Station Skif and its prototype Polus” , look in the military photos blog. I cant link it here.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (3:58 pm)

    Have also seen the latest GM ad on TV. Wonder why GM is creating demand for the Volt with just 700 scheduled to be produced each month? Any guesses?

    coffeetime: (Lyle) You should consider writing a book on the Volt from your unique perspective…

    Another contest for gm volt dot com? Name the book.

    =D-Volt


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:01 pm)

    AnonymousProxy: Why is one considerd “Trolling” when a valid argument is presented?

    It has a lot to do with considering the source. Also, you can’t make a one-sided argument “valid” just by force of will — unless you are just trolling with no genuine interest in truly valid arguments.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:03 pm)

    AnonymousProxy: No incentives applied to meet this “Affordability” criteria.
    Why is one considerd “Trolling” when a valid argument is presented?

    Simple, because you can’t say what the Volt part of the price discussion is…yet.
    Besides that, affordable is subjective. You can’t determine what affordable is for everyone.

    Bottom line is that the troll word is used when comments are made that add nothing to the discussion other than tear down whatever has been said that is positive.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:09 pm)

    Mr. Lutz, thank you for your contribution to this new and better way. I wonder if you will consider making a guest post here when you are retired?


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:11 pm)

    Dave K.: Another contest for gm volt dot com? Name the book.

    “How Pink Was My Tie: triumph of a car guy” by Lyle Dennis.

    Shoppers who purchased this book were also interested in:

    “Jackson’s Big Book of Troll Put-Downs,” by Zachary Taylor.


  114. 114
    AnonymousProxy

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:22 pm)

    mitch: as to selling it at a loss..hey Toyota did for the irst 2-3 years..so not like introducing something radical makes money everytime…

    Sure it was sold at a loss but is it a loss to the US buyers?
    Nor were they (Toyota) fronted over 80 billion by the US tax payers, of which almost half was “forgiven” in the BK.
    For GM to sell the Volt to the tax payers at a loss yet funded by the tax payers makes it a lose lose.


  115. 115
    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:26 pm)

    AnonymousProxy:
    Sure it was sold at a loss but is it a loss to the US buyers?
    Nor were they (Toyota) fronted over 80 billion by the US tax payers, of which almost half was “forgiven” in the BK.
      

    Are you actually trying to say that Toyota never received any financial aid from their own government? Or that they never profited from actions taken by that government (through tariffs and other measures) deliberately put in place for the benefit of it’s domestic auto manufacturers?

    Also, I believe the Prius sold at a loss for more than a couple of years …


  116. 116
    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:31 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    “How Pink Was My Tie: triumph of a car guy” by Lyle Dennis.Shoppers who purchased this book were also interested in:“Jackson’s Big Book of Troll Put-Downs,” by Zachary Taylor.  

    Your book title has a nice ring to it, but I think that Lyle’s may need some more thought.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Loboc

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:32 pm)

    coffeetime: Buyer #1 and a signed copy, please

    How do you sign an iPad first edition?


  118. 118
    carcus2

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    mitch: as to selling it at a loss..hey Toyota did for the irst 2-3 years..

    You’ve got proof of this? Or is this conjecture?

    I want to see the production cost. You must know the production cost to make such a statement. I do not want a guess.


  119. 119
    koz

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:37 pm)

    john1701a: Volt would have indeed been affordable if the “nicely under $30,000” goal hadn’t been abandoned.Starting out with a less expensive configuration to establish EREV, then build it up over time would have attracted far more marketshare.  (Quote)

    Not sure why this one garnered so many negative votes. Gave it a +1. Positive reinforcement thing, you know. While I think the Volt as is and around $37,500 will sell just fine with the tax credit. John’s point is valid, eventhough <$30K was not feasible.


  120. 120
    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:51 pm)

    nasaman: Reading this first segment of the Lutz interview makes my creative juices flow. Enough that I want to address a comment to any readers associated with global carmakers OTHER THAN General Motors…Swallow your pride. Just long enough to have your best/brightest drive train engineers carefully review & critique the Voltec EREV design. Unless I’m mistaken, they’ll confirm that Voltec is truly a major leap forward in automotive propulsion, which could motivate your senior management to look into licensing parts of (or all of) the Voltec EREV design for use as an advanced drive train in new vehicles of your own design. And as inducement, consider that Sputnik ignited the space race between two major powers. But the superior engineering design of the US Space Shuttle ultimately overcame the Soviet government’s enormous national pride, which finally resulted in… The Soviet shuttle (“Buran”) actually flew several times and was shelved because of the USSR’s economic collapse: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/models/vault/Buran/Buran%2520vs%2520shuttle%2520large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2815526&h=1133&w=930&sz=184&tbnid=O2lVCyGiu3r1uM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drussian%2Bspace%2Bshuttle&usg=__j6mrychobQ5aomh3rngP2qlxniY=&ei=R5LVS_7-AYWW8AThnomoDw&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=9&ct=image&ved=0CCQQ9QEwCA  

    US manned Space Travel is kind of a sore subject at the moment.

    Having met several NASA people in 2008, I know that they feared loss of the Constellation program if Obama were to win the upcoming election. “He’ll put us onto a more Earth observing sort of mission.”

    I therefore noted with interest the launch of the Constellation 1 – X booster in 2009; particularly that the test rocket was painted similarly to the historic Redstone booster which first carried a US astronaut into space.

    243gjg9.jpg

    33vn8fl.jpg

    I recall thinking that somebody must have realized that this would likely be the one and only Constellation launch, and that the manned space program in the US was in danger of ending altogether. I wonder if the paint job was intended as a subtle memorial made by people behind the scenes to commemorate the passing of perhaps the most dramatic period in US history?

    Can you comment on any of this?


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    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:52 pm)

    carcus2:
    You’ve got proof of this?Or is this conjecture?I want to see the production cost.You must know the production cost to make such a statement. I do not want a guess.  

    I liked you better as carcus1.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:55 pm)

    Just remember a lot of people drive cars made by Trolls, in Trollhattan, Sweden. Later model GM cars bear more than a slight resemblance to them.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (4:55 pm)

    koz:
    Not sure why this one garnered so many negative votes. Gave it a +1. Positive reinforcement thing, you know. While I think the Volt as is and around $37,500 will sell just fine with the tax credit. John’s point is valid, eventhough <$30K was not feasible.  

    John has been here many, many times; and said the very same things over and over.

    He’s not making any points, just beating a drum. We’ve heard what he’s got to say. Again, and again and again …

    He just needs to go away. That’s what all the negs are about.


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    carcus2

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:01 pm)

    Tagamet: carcus2:
    You’ve got proof of this?Or is this conjecture?I want to see the production cost.You must know the production cost to make such a statement. I do not want a guess.  
    I liked you better as carcus1.

    Ok. I’ll stop being a mitch now.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:05 pm)

    Tagamet:
    I liked you better as carcus1.Be well and believe,
    TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  

    I’d like him better as “carcass1,” but that’s just me.

    carcus2:
    Ok.I’ll stop being amitch now.  

    OOoooo, you lie, you lie. Anyone standing near you should stand well back, the lightning is surely on it’s way …

    Also, your spelling appears to be a bit off.


  126. 126
    Dave K.

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:09 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Also, I believe the Prius sold at a loss for more than a couple of years …

    Having an interesting draw to your dealership showroom is not “selling at a loss”. I have been to my local Chevy dealership twice. Didn’t have a reason to prior to the Volt. The Volt is already earning profits.

    BTW: Thank you Mr. Lutz for staying the course and being a sane component in this rip tide automotive world. I admire all the car greats.
    Up til’ recently I had to give this one to Andy Granatelli and his Novi. Followed by his turbine-powered cars at Indy 1967 and 1968. The Granatelli/Andretti team was big fun to watch.
    Now, with the Volt, this list may need to be adjusted. Thanks for everything you do.

    =D-Volt

    novi.png


  127. 127
    khaos

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:09 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Are you actually trying to say that Toyota never received any financial aid from their own government? Or that they never profited from actions taken by that government (through tariffs and other measures) deliberately put in place for the benefit of it’s domestic auto manufacturers?

    I don’t understand this. Where does the original poster say that Toyota never got a penny from THEIR government? Why do you keep reading between lines that don’t exist?
    The Japanese government wasn’t even mentioned!?
    Talk about reaching for an argument. That is “Troll” status.

    Quit putting words in other posters statements and go get a life.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:12 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Also, your spelling appears to be a bit off.

    I noticed that too (g).
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Steve

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:14 pm)

    Exp_EngTech: Shuttle vs Buran, there’s one difference I’m aware of.A “Production” Buran was to have had a “one use” engine that could be used (just one time) to fly around and realign for a second shot at the runway.  (Quote)

    Buran only flew once. Unmanned.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:22 pm)

    khaos: Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Are you actually trying to say that Toyota never received any financial aid from their own government? Or that they never profited from actions taken by that government (through tariffs and other measures) deliberately put in place for the benefit of it’s domestic auto manufacturers?

    Khaos: I don’t understand this. Where does the original poster say that Toyota never got a penny from THEIR government? Why do you keep reading between lines that don’t exist?
    The Japanese government wasn’t even mentioned!?
    Talk about reaching for an argument. That is “Troll” status.

    Quit putting words in other posters statements and go get a life.

    I suspect that you came into the conversation a hair late. Not a problem, happens all the time (oh, and I *need* a life).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  131. 131
    Roy H

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:24 pm)

    Dave G:
    I believe this car will go mainstream in a big way.My prediction: By around 2020, half of all new cars sold will be EREV.  

    And the other half will be BEVs.


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    Eco_Turbo

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    I guess we’ll have fertilizer and plastic cups coming out our ears in 2020.


  133. 133
    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:28 pm)

    khaos:
    I don’t understand this.

    That is because you are either a great, stupid idiot, or you are Mr. Carcass (or possibly Mr. Anonymous) trolling under another name. I suspect the latter.

    Where does the original poster say that Toyota never got a penny from THEIR government? Why do you keep reading between lines that don’t exist?
    The Japanese government wasn’t even mentioned!?

    The US government and a US automaker were mentioned, so was financial (taxpayer) aid from that government to it’s domestic automaker. The unwillingness of you trolls to allow an argument with two sides represents a logical disconnect nothing short of breathtaking. You cite GM’s BK, and allow nothing to be said about Japanese protectionism of Toyota (or downright grants, or enacting legislation making Japanese car owners replace major components every four years if they want to keep a 4+ year old car on the road, intended solely to force the regular purchase of a new vehicle), or any of the other ad-nauseum unfair practices unbalancing trade between the two countries.

    Talk about reaching for an argument. That is “Troll” status.Quit putting words in other posters statements and go get a life.  

    … and in fact, “reaching for an argument” is precisely what you, Mr. Carcass, Mr. Anonymous Prolapse and Prius John are here to accomplish (however many persons that actually adds up to). You’re here solely to “reach” into your transparent, anti-logical, semantic bag of tricks with the sole purpose of distracting us with a ridiculous “argument”.

    Heaven forbid that Volt fans should be left on their own fan site to discuss the Volt unchallenged, hey? All you are accomplishing is the abundant and detailed revelation of your own pathetic “intellects,” nothing more.

    And yes, you’ve gotten a response with your little barb. Whoop-de-freaking doo. You’ve already left your mental gnat droppings all over this thread, so I really don’t care so much as long as I get to ‘read your titles’ clear, for once.


  134. 134
    AnonymousProxy

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:30 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Are you actually trying to say that Toyota never received any financial aid from their own government? Or that they never profited from actions taken by that government (through tariffs and other measures) deliberately put in place for the benefit of it’s domestic auto manufacturers?

    Seriously?
    Maybe I should’ve elaborated more.

    “Sure it was sold at a loss but is it a loss to the US buyers?”
    A Japanese company sells a roduct to a US buyer at a loss.
    Japanese company loses, US customer wins.
    Lose, Win

    “Nor were they (Toyota) fronted over 80 billion by the US tax payers, of which almost half was “forgiven” in the BK.”
    Toyota was not bailed out, GM was up to 80 Billion by the tax payers.
    Tax payers buy a GM product of which the funds to stay in business and probably used to manfacture the product for a Loss.
    Tax payer fund GM=Lose
    Tax payers buy GM product at a Loss=Lose
    Lose, Lose

    Where you got anything from my statement about the Japanese government you pulled out of your…………air.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:31 pm)

    Roy H: Dave G:
    I believe this car will go mainstream in a big way.My prediction: By around 2020, half of all new cars sold will be EREV.

    And the other half will be BEVs.

    “Don’t Bogart that joint”….

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Roy H

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:32 pm)

    NZDavid: God bless Tesla, for making the Volt possible./
    And the bailout? 

    GM used the Volt as a primary justification for the bailout. The government made it clear it was not interested in helping companies it they did not show a path to new eco-friendly technology. GM could have used their FC program, but the Volt offered a near-term and much more visible solution. Chrysler showed their mini-van PHEV and Challenger BEV, but after the bailout, these were dropped.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:33 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): khaos:
    I don’t understand this.

    That is because you are either a great, stupid idiot, or you are Mr. Carcass (or possibly Mr. Anonymous) trolling under another name. I suspect the latter.

    HEY! Watch the name-calling!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  138. 138
    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:35 pm)

    Roy H: GM used the Volt as a primary justification for the bailout. The government made it clear it was not interested in helping companies it they did not show a path to new eco-friendly technology.

    JMO, but I find that hard to believe.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


  139. 139
    john1701a

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:37 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): …and said the very same things over and over.
    He’s not making any points, just beating a drum. We’ve heard what he’s got to say. Again, and again and again…

    You do realize that repeatedly changing plans is what contributed significantly to GM’s troubles.

    Committing to a clear goal and sticking to it is where prior success came from.

    How many times has Volt transformed already?


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:41 pm)

    AnonymousProxy:
    Seriously?
    Maybe I should’ve elaborated more.“Sure it was sold at a loss but is it a loss to the US buyers?”
    A Japanese company sells a roduct to a US buyer at a loss.
    Japanese company loses, US customer wins.
    Lose, Win“Nor were they (Toyota) fronted over 80 billion by the US tax payers, of which almost half was “forgiven” in the BK.”
    Toyota was not bailed out, GM was up to 80 Billion by the tax payers.
    Tax payers buy a GM product of which the funds to stay in business and probably used to manfacture the product for a Loss.
    Tax payer fund GM=Lose
    Tax payers buy GM product at a Loss=Lose
    Lose, LoseWhere you got anything from my statement about the Japanese government you pulled out of your…………air.  

    See my #133.

    Thanks for virtually confirming that you’re also “khaos,” Mr. No-Name. I can remember when you were ten people a day! You must be slipping.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:44 pm)

    john1701a: How many times has Volt transformed already?

    Fewer times than Prius. You guys have roman numerals for them, now. Tell me if you can that the first Prius offered for sale wasn’t preceded by developmental prototypes.

    Oh, and I hear that the Prius is going to change again … so that it can have a Lithium battery and a plug just like the Volt … well, not just like the Volt: the Prius is too bound and limited by it’s legacy technology, which prevents if from exceeding 50 mph without it’s engine.


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    AnonymousProxy

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:48 pm)

    john1701a: You do realize that repeatedly changing plans is what contributed significantly to GM’s troubles.
    Committing to a clear goal and sticking to it is where prior success came from.
    How many times has Volt transformed already?

    Feel free to add to the list…..
    First the body shown was stripped and “Genericized”….
    Then Price went from low 30K to barely under 40K (Before credits)….
    Then MPG with the genset is far below a Prius 2010 51mpg….
    Then range in cold was announced that it would be less than 40 miles despite all the electronics that is “supposed” to protect the cells….
    Then everyone found out the ICE was an “Otto” cycle and not the more efficient Atkinson-cycle.
    Now no E85?
    First we’re told 60K second year production now only 50K?


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    Roy H

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:50 pm)

    Jim in PA: I still can’t comprehend that GM was caught by surprise when they wind tunnel tested the Volt concept and it performed poorly.In this advanced age of computer modeling, you’d think that a wind tunnel simulation program should exist where you toss in a 3D CAD shape and see what the results are. Sure, it would only be an approximation and you’d have to fine tune it in the actual tunnel, but something like this would save car companies huge amount of time and dollars, and would let their design department mess around with a lot of body styles with minimal capital investment.  

    They didn’t get “caught by surprise” at all. The concept vehicle was designed to attract attention and champion the EREV idea. Streamlining was not required for this.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (5:53 pm)

    AnonymousProxy:
    Feel free to add to the list…..
    First the body shown was stripped and “Genericized”….
    Then Price went from low 30K to barely under 40K (Before credits)….
    Then MPG with the genset is far below a Prius 2010 51mpg….
    Then range in cold was announced that it would be less than 40 miles despite all the electronics that is “supposed” to protect the cells….
    Then everyone found out the ICE was an “Otto” cycle and not the more efficient Atkinson-cycle.
    Now no E85?
    First we’re told 60K second year production now only 50K?  

    And you know all of this how?

    [irony]
    I’m sure that Toyota shared with you Prius fanbois every detail of their developmental ruminations prior to the first model’s launch. What? They didn’t? Well, I’m shocked.
    [/irony]


  145. 145
    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:08 pm)

    Spoke too quickly. Let’s see what the troll-boy did with GM’s unprecedented openness during the Volt’s development:

    AnonymousProxy:
    Feel free to add to the list…..
    First the body shown was stripped and “Genericized”….

    (that’s troll-speak for systematically optimized for aerodynamic efficiency)

    Then Price went from low 30K to barely under 40K (Before credits)….

    (price never announced, but don’t let that stop you)

    Then MPG with the genset is far below a Prius 2010 51mpg….

    (again never announced, though most recently we’re assured that it will be at least 50 mpg; which is what this troll means for “far below a Prius 2010 51mpg…”)

    Then range in cold was announced that it would be less than 40 miles despite all the electronics that is “supposed” to protect the cells….

    We’ll see how the plug-in Prius fares in cold weather. This is a problem for all EVs.

    Then everyone found out the ICE was an “Otto” cycle and not the more efficient Atkinson-cycle.

    More efficient in an assist hybrid, you mean.

    Now no E85?

    Ooo! Ooo! The blind sow found an acorn!
    (Actually, if the idea is occasional use of the engine (as opposed to the regular use of the Prius engine), surely higher energy density fuel is preferable? But don’t let me steal your thunder).

    First we’re told 60K second year production now only 50K?  

    I know you’re really going to love this phrase, but:

    Stay Tuned.

    We’ll see if it’s better to announce huge production numbers and have to scale them back or announce conservative production numbers and have to ramp them up …


  146. 146
    James

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:09 pm)

    Along with Bob Lutz and John Lauckner – one more should be listed as “Father’s Of The Volt” in the first history book about our beloved EREV: THE GUY RESPONSIBLE FOR PUSHING THE “GO” BUTTON TO MASS PRODUCE IT OVER 10,000 COPIES*.

    RECHARGE! James

    IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.

    * and perhaps, maybe the guy who green lights the MPV5 to be built IN AMERICA FOR AMERICANS.


  147. 147
    john1701a

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:12 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): And you know all of this how?

    We documented that history. So when the spin came later, we’d be able to refer back to what actually happened… know exactly when it occurred… and even have quotes available to support it.

    Please state was the purpose of Volt is now.

    Detail like price, performance, targeted consumers, production volume, and when profit is anticipated would be most enlightening.


  148. 148
    AnonymousProxy

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:22 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): And you know all of this how?

    This website of course.

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): I’m sure that Toyota shared with you Prius fanbois every detail of their developmental ruminations prior to the first model’s launch. What? They didn’t? Well, I’m shocked.

    As far as I know of, Toyota has never proclaimed to be “Transparent” about the Prius. So why would it be an issue or negative for them to not do what they never said they would do?

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): I know you’re really going to love this phrase, but:
    Stay Tuned.

    lol


  149. 149
    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:24 pm)

    john1701a:
    We documented that history.

    read off this site

    So when the we could add spin came later

    Fixed that for ya!

    we’d be able to refer back to what actually happened… know exactly when it occurred… and even have quotes available to support it.

    I wondered what all that date and link support in your comments were! Now you’ve clued us in!

    Please state was the purpose of Volt is now.

    You’ll find out soon enough, since you can’t take hints.

    Detail like price,

    Ooo, impatient, aren’t we?

    performance, targeted consumers, production volume, and when profit is anticipated would be most enlightening.  

    Yeah, I’m sure it would be, Mr. Japanese Fifth Columnist.


  150. 150
    Tagamet

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:27 pm)

    James: Along with Bob Lutz and John Lauckner – one more should be listed as “Father’s Of The Volt” in the first history book about our beloved EREV:THE GUY RESPONSIBLE FOR PUSHING THE “GO” BUTTON TO MASS PRODUCE IT OVER 10,000 COPIES*.RECHARGE! JamesIF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME.* and perhaps, maybe the guy who green lights the MPV5 to be built IN AMERICA FOR AMERICANS.  

    You mean LYLE??? He’s got more pull than even *I* thought….

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:28 pm)

    AnonymousProxy: As far as I know of, Toyota has never proclaimed to be “Transparent” about the Prius. So why would it be an issue or negative for them to not do what they never said they would do?

    And yet, when another company chooses to outdo Toyota in this area, you decide to prosecute it as a weakness. If Toyota had been as transparent, don’t you think that you might have found that a succession of ideas and options were worked through as the Prius idea was firmed up for market (my point in bringing this up, which you’ve conveniently ignored)? Wouldn’t you have seen great evidence of changed minds before the first Prius hit the showroom? But then, this would require an argument with two sides; and we know how you guys are when an argument has more than just one.

    I guess the Prius just descended straight down from Buddha or whatever, as angels sang in Japanese (with subtitles).


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    PJK

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:31 pm)

    Good job Bob… enjoy retirement… thank you for the contributions to great American industry.
    I have a feeling you won’t be retiring completely though.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:39 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): well, not just like the Volt: the Prius is too bound and limited by it’s legacy technology, which prevents if from exceeding 50 mph without it’s engine.

    Or beating a golf cart off the line without firing up its engine.


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    Michael

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:40 pm)

    john1701a: Please state was the purpose of Volt is now.

    Would *you* please find a purpose in life. By that I mean one that is beneficial to *someone.*


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    john1701a

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): If Toyota had been as transparent, don’t you think that you might have found that a succession of ideas and options were worked through as the Prius idea was firmed up for market

    That’s what we documented. They were.


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    john1701a

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:46 pm)

    AnonymousProxy: As far as I know of, Toyota has never proclaimed to be “Transparent” about the Prius.

    We had access to the executives just like we’ve seen here.

    There’s wasn’t any need to proclaim anything.

    We simply asked questions and they answered them.


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    AnonymousProxy

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:55 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): And yet, when another company chooses to outdo Toyota in this area, you decide to prosecute it as a weakness.

    Never indicated any “Prosecution” of GM for their transparency. Just because GM is trying to “out do” another comapny by being transparent does not make the other company any less as you have insinuated. I have never indicated GM’s “Transparency” as a weaknes of any type. Now your just arguing “what would have been if blah blah was tranparent about….blah blah blah” without even knowing the facts. See 156. At least I was bold enough to say “As far as I know of” if I were unsure but corrected by John at 156.


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    Tagamet

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:56 pm)

    Maybe if we all sit here vehwwwee qwyetwee, theywyll go awway…
    (shhh)


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (6:56 pm)

    john1701a:
    That’s what we documented.They were.  

    So, would you care to share any of this ground-breaking documentation? Did you go so far as to compare before-Prius revelations with after-release reality?

    A link would do.

    john1701a:
    We had access to the executives just like we’ve seen here.There’s wasn’t any need to proclaim anything.We simply asked questions and they answered them.  

    Now why do I find it hard to believe that they withheld no details from you ordinary Joe Sixpacks from Kalamazoo?

    Or could it be that you obtained this access as part of a favored status as a corporate ally or other directly interested party? What do we really know about you, No-name and the anonymous troll-boy? Or are you prepared to say that you are all three, posting under different names? Do you all get pay from the same place if you are not the same person?

    Are you starting to feel desperate, yet? The patina of invincibility at Toyota has started to crack, and GM just might survive the Great Campaign of Misinformation after all; have you noticed?


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:00 pm)

    AnonymousProxy:
    Never indicated any “Prosecution” of GM for their transparency. Just because GM is trying to “out do” another comapny by being transparent does not make the other company any less as you have insinuated. I have never indicated GM’s “Transparency” as a weaknes of any type. Now your just arguing “what would have been if blah blah was tranparent about….blah blah blah” without even knowing the facts. See 156. At least I was bold enough to say “As far as I know of” if I were unsure but corrected by John at 156.  

    Oh, so the Prius did get crapped out the sphincter of some Asian deity, all complete! I’ll put you down for spontaneous generation (but not for fairness).


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:01 pm)

    Tagamet: Maybe if we all sit here vehwwwee qwyetwee, theywyll go awway…
    (shhh)  

    Oh, all right.
    :-(

    Killjoy.


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    Michael

     

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:02 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): all complete!

    ZT, give up. Don’t you see the value in PDNFTT yet?

    Just saw your reply to Tag. Same thought. 8-)


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    nuclearboy

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:17 pm)

    AnonymousProxy: A Japanese company sells a roduct to a US buyer at a loss.
    Japanese company loses, US customer wins.

    Example.
    Japanese company dumps TVs in the US. (a fact)

    US customer wins??? Not after US TV industry is gutted, I don’t think the US customer wins when the Japanese gain market share and kill off US industry.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:24 pm)

    I’m with all who revere Mr. Lutz for his vision and actions that will indeed forevermore etch his name in motordom’s historical record. The Volt is the one that will establish electricity as an accepted alternative power for vehicular transportation. The Leaf will be a forgotten footnote to the story.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:27 pm)

    Michael:
    ZT, give up.Don’t you see the value in PDNFTT yet?Just saw your reply to Tag.Same thought.   

    LOL, it’s just like trying to blow out a burning piece of dried, er, a burning piece of dried…. er, wood, yeah, that’s it. You can’t blow it out anyway…. (sometimes, the no name calling rule is really tough).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (7:43 pm)

    Tagamet: Roy H: GM used the Volt as a primary justification for the bailout. The government made it clear it was not interested in helping companies it they did not show a path to new eco-friendly technology.

    JMO, but I find that hard to believe.

    I agree.


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    guido

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:04 pm)

    Very, very cool Bob – way to go out in style! Congrats on an incredible career.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:05 pm)

    nuclearboy: Example.
    Japanese company dumps TVs in the US. (a fact)
    US customer wins??? Not after US TV industry is gutted, I don’t think the US customer wins when the Japanese gain market share and kill off US industry.  

    Then the Chinese come and kill off the Japanese industry.. perhaps the American TV manufacturers could not compete?


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:16 pm)

    There is a very interesting article over on AutiblogGreen about the Volt. The following is an excerpt from this article http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/26/chelsea-sexton-why-the-volts-engaged-roll-out-is-vital-especi/

    “And no question, driving the car was a good start. TV and film editor Jeff U’ren was candidly impressed: “My Prius serves its purpose, but after driving the Volt, it seemed tinker-toyish.” But this bunch never questioned that GM could build a good plug-in car if it wanted to, and it was the conversation that followed that was more important.”

    Note to those few this is view from people skeptical of GM. When the product is better, especially when it’s better on many levels, it doesn’t need to be cheaper.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:38 pm)

    stuart22: The Leaf will be a forgotten footnote to the story.

    Forgotten? I see the Leaf as the direct replacement for the EV-1. That’s a big deal. The rounding up of the EV-1 and scrap yard crushing program was an important event in our history. It was an audacious display by the mighty Big Oil giant reminding everyone that We The People are under their hand.

    I’m am cautiously optimistic that the Leaf will soon be OWNED outright by the public. With little chance of another collect and crush program. When Leaf sales reach 100,000 units I plan on taking the family to a resort in Vegas. Sitting by the pool. And celebrating behind sun glasses and a cold one. If possible we will travel by Volt.

    =D-Volt


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (8:46 pm)

    Some miscellaneous ramblings on this rainy day in Seattle -

    Gas went to $3.11 per gallon over the weekend here.

    On the way home from picking up my daughter from preschool ( a four mile drive roundtrip ) Friday I got behind a 2010 Prius with it’s brand new license stuck in the window, we pulled up to a 4 way stop behind another 2010 Prius also with it’s new dealer issued license stuck to the back window. As we continued along, our 2007 Prius making a little Prii caravan – we passed two other Prius going by in the opposite direction. People must really be taking advantage of 0% financing! And they said Toyota was hurting….News today was that Toyota’s sales are up 94% over last year at this time…. hmmmm…. The Prius is not to be knocked, as without it there would be no Volt, and just think of the air pollution and barrels of foreign crude being saved per Prius. If only GM can find it in themselves to produce 5 and 6 seat Voltecs. By the way, I got 47.9 mpg on my round trip.

    Prius also are responsible for training drivers to drive economically. What with their real-time mileage graphs and charts and incentives onscreen to urge you on to miserly driving. Since I bought our Prius I’ve noticed how poorly people drive in general gas-savings-wise. For instance, the SUV I got behind today was decelerating on slight downhills, using brakes, and reached it’s slowest speed at the bottom dip where the road began a slight upgrade where they, like so many drivers, gunned it to get up the other side! Just the opposite of Prius drivers who know how to coast, when to gas it and how to use momentum to get over rises and hills. Volt drivers who came from hybrids will do much better than the common Joe ICE drivers at first – much better.

    Sitting at the INconvenience store today in my 6 cyl ICE Toyota truck. A Ford Excursion ( the largest vehicle sold in America at it’s time ) towered over my rather tall 4X4, as it had a lift kit, HUGE KNOBBY TIRES and wheels – just to add insult to gasoline injury. Then, as I was pondering what type of man buys such a vehicle – a smallish dude with glasses appears from the store, gets in it and actually BACKS UP AND DRIVES THREE PARKING STALLS OVER to the Sprint Wireless store and hops out! AND YOU THOUGHT DRIVE-THRU WINDOWS made Americans seem fat and lazy!!!!!

    Lastly, saw my first Honda Insight Taxi today. Nice to see hybrid taxicabs taking over the older larger sedans and wagons. One observation: The Insight taxi had it’s top billboard facing horizontal to the windshield, not lengthwise as is the common custom! So there you have it – he just blew about HALF of his aero, fuel-saving advantage….bingo bango bingo! L :) L

    Sorry about the ramblings.

    RECHARGE! James

    IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:02 pm)

    Lyle, can you get an interview with Lauckner? I’d be very interested in that.


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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:27 pm)

    banerian: Lyle, can you get an interview with Lauckner? I’d be very interested in that.

    +1 to this. No offense to Max Bob (you know we dig ya, Bob), but we’ve never heard enough directly from Jon. Although, I imagine he’s a very busy man these days.

    EDIT/addendum: Of course, ANY Volt Team interviews are welcome. Ain’t heard from Tony or Frank in a while, either…


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (9:55 pm)

    koz: There is a very interesting article over on AutiblogGreen about the Volt. The following is an excerpt from this article http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/26/chelsea-sexton-why-the-volts-engaged-roll-out-is-vital-especi/

    Wow. How long ago was the EV1 called back and crushed? I’m genuinely moved by how much it obviously still hurts Ms. Chelsea. To me it seems a shame that anyone would carry that around for so long, without making some peace with herself. As much as I love the Volt, and as angry as I’d be if it met the same fate, I’d hope that after this amount of time had passed, I’d be able to write about it without it sounding like I had a dead mouse in my mouth. Please understand that she doesn’t say anything awful about the Volt – quite the opposite. But it’s very clear that she’s never gotten over the EV1′s fate. Maybe, if she decides to get a Volt or a LEAF, some healing can get started.
    Prayers,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:06 pm)

    Dave K.: Forgotten? I see the Leaf as the direct replacement for the EV-1. That’s a big deal. The rounding up of the EV-1 and scrap yard crushing program was an important event in our history. It was an audacious display by the mighty Big Oil giant reminding everyone that We The People are under their hand.

    Each EV-1 cost GM around $80,000 to build, and at the time gas was around $1/gallon. No wonder they killed it.

    But things are different now. People are starting to connect the dots between foreign oil and terrorism. $4/gallon gas helped lead to a near depression. Climate change is a hot topic. Tesla has shown that electric drive can be fast and sexy. “Who Killed The Electric Car” gave GM a lot of bad publicity, and then shortly after that, GM became the #2 auto maker, and then went bankrupt. These things tend to change corporate culture.

    And it seems technology has finally caught up. Li/Ion batteries are smaller and lighter, which makes a range extender possible, which enables the first truly mainstream electric car.

    So within a year or two, you’ll be able to buy (not lease) a Volt anywhere in the U.S, for under $30,000 (after the tax credit). At that point, people will (hopefully) stop talking about the EV-1.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:20 pm)

    Dave G:
    Each EV-1 cost GM around $80,000 to build, and at the time gas was around $1/gallon.No wonder they killed it.But things are different now.People are starting to connect the dots between foreign oil and terrorism.$4/gallon gas helped lead to a near depression.Climate change is a hot topic.Tesla has shown that electric drive can be fast and sexy.“Who Killed The Electric Car” gave GM a lot of bad publicity, and then shortly after that, GM became the #2 auto maker, and then went bankrupt.These things tend to change corporate culture.And it seems technology has finally caught up.Li/Ion batteries are smaller and lighter, which makes a range extender possible, which enables the first truly mainstream electric car.So within a year or two, you’ll be able to buy (not lease) a Volt anywhere in the U.S, for under $30,000 (after the tax credit).At that point, people will (hopefully) stop talking about the EV-1.  

    Looks like our posts crossed. See #174. Same wish.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:27 pm)

    OT, Talked the wife into going to our favorite GM dealer in the Prius today. Managed to get the Prius parked next to a nice no option red Camaro while our favorite salesman came out to talk. I managed to get out that I like the Camaro while my wife went on a tirade on why she did not like GM because we have $5000 credit on our GM card and can not use it. At one point the salesman mentioned the Volt (Cheers!) and that it gets 230mpg. That did stop my wife for a moment. I mentioned that she thinks our electric bill would be $500 a month with a Volt but that really it uses just more than a dishwasher. She then went on another anti Volt tirade…

    He suggested that the Volt would be in the high 30′s which would be a bit much for us. So I figure we pay 20 cents a kilowatt so our bill would go up no more than $50 a month. the gas savings would be $90 so we would be saving $40. My wife then wanted to know what the insurance would be. I had no answer for that.

    Well he did get our name, so I hope that we are on the dealers Volt list. So when the Volt comes out in the low 30′s we will be on the list. Also just maybe we will be able to use our GM card dollars. But I will not hold my breath.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:28 pm)

    EV-1 100 miles (electric car) GM

    Leaf 100 miles (electric car) Nissan

    They seem fairly similar to me.

    Dave G: So within a year or two, you’ll be able to buy (not lease) a Volt anywhere in the U.S, for under $30,000 (after the tax credit).

    Think the CAFE standards and EV competition from a dozen other auto makers has something to do with this? American auto makers had better stop smoking cigars and get up off the couch. Asia is quietly producing EV’s now. And could care less that GM will produce less than 1000 EV units a month. Asia plans on bringing both a stylish EV and EREV to the market as soon as they can. And will deliver as many as American’s are willing to buy.

    All of us here at gm volt dot com want GM’s Volt to be on the top of everyone’s wish list. But, this will not happen with a sluggish launch and low unit delivery. The times are changing and those who feel there is plenty of time to delay delivery are mistaken. The EV-3 would be today’s Prius if it hadn’t been crushed.

    =D-Volt


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:42 pm)

    Tagamet: Wow. How long ago was the EV1 called back and crushed? I’m genuinely moved by how much it obviously still hurts Ms. Chelsea. To me it seems a shame that anyone would carry that around for so long, without making some peace with herself. As much as I love the Volt, and as angry as I’d be if it met the same fate, I’d hope that after this amount of time had passed, I’d be able to write about it without it sounding like I had a dead mouse in my mouth.

    The problem is the ongoing reminders that keep it fresh.

    I only got to drive a car once in a while. My boss got one for 18 months. That’s 18 months of never taking the car to a gas station.

    Every time you fill up it is a reminder.

    9/11 and all of the other terror attacks: knowing it is your gas buying dollars that are funding it. Knowing that without gas dollars, the middle east would be an irrelevant back water.

    The Iraq war. Even if you do not ascribe to the view that it was “over oil” (as I do), without oil dollars, it would be “Sadam who?”

    $4 a gallon gas and the hopelessness of not knowing how high it would go. The not knowing but strongly suspecting that NiMH technology was being suppressed by the same folks amassing obscene wealth off the high oil prices.

    Me? I’m not overly bitter about it but I do understand the feelings of others.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (10:46 pm)

    Just as I hit the post on the last post, ABC national just ran a LEAF add.

    “Imagine never stopping at a gas station” as they show a lady plugging in.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:00 pm)

    Yay Kent Kresa! Yet another reason why he is totally awesome… everything except his decision to get into the shipbuilding business was masterful. Now I can thank him for the Volt as well.


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:33 pm)

    Matthew B:
    The problem is the ongoing reminders that keep it fresh.I only got to drive a car once in a while.My boss got one for 18 months.That’s 18 months of never taking the car to a gas station.Every time you fill up it is a reminder.9/11 and all of the other terror attacks: knowing it is your gas buying dollars that are funding it.Knowing that without gas dollars, the middle east would be an irrelevant back water.The Iraq war.Even if you do not ascribe to the view that it was “over oil” (as I do), without oil dollars, it would be “Sadam who?”$4 a gallon gas and the hopelessness of not knowing how high it would go.The not knowing but strongly suspecting that NiMH technology was being suppressed by the same folks amassing obscene wealth off the high oil prices.Me?I’m not overly bitter about it but I do understand the feelings of others.  

    I was talking about moving through the grieving process. I’m surrounded by reminders of both of my parents who have gone through transition many years ago, and yes, I miss them, but I’m not bitter – and I knew them a lot longer than 18 months. So no, I don’t understand the EV1 bitterness lingering, other than that it is shared by some former owners.
    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 26th, 2010 (11:40 pm)

    Tagamet: I was talking about moving through the grieving process.

    I do know exactly what you meant.

    I guess what you are saying is that the EV1 fanatics really are mentally ill.

    JUST KIDDING!!!!!

    Yeah, they are stuck at the anger stage. I think it is the frustration of dealing with something that as far as they are concerned didn’t have to happen. Your analogy about dealing with death would more parallel a death before its time vs. old age.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (12:09 am)

    “John sketched it out on a pad, then we talked to design and we got going on the original Volt prototype.
    Frankly at that point John Laucker and I decided there was nothing about this concept that couldn’t or shouldn’t make it to production.”
    _________________________________

    For those who want a little more reality (and a lot less ego) in their history, you could start here:

    History of plug-in hybrids
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_plug-in_hybrids

    From the wiki:
    “Inspired by his work as an EV1 propulsion system engineer, Jeff Ronning began developing concepts for plug-in hybrids in the mid-1990s at then Delco Remy, Division of GM. EV1 prototypes were sometimes attached with “range-extender” trailers, developed by Alan Cocconi of AC Propulsion. These trailers were simply rolling gen sets that could supply power for long trips. It was only natural to conceive of an EV1 with a small turbo-alternator on board (1995 internal publication). External publications (SAE 971629 [5] and 1999-01-2946) followed expounding the merits of using electrical energy for most local travel and proving it with the data from the US DOT. “Unlimited EV” and “Battery Dominant Hybrid” as well as “Energy Hybrid” were the given names for the architecture because the term “plug-in” hybrid coined by Dr. Andy Frank was considered at odds with Toyota’s position that Prius did not need to be “plugged in” and their opinion that plugging was inconvenient. In 1997 (ten years before Volt) an internal project at the new spin-off, Delphi Corporation, began to convert an EV1 to a PHEV. However, the project was canceled by the corporate directors of technology.”

    / this was while Lauckner was off climbing the GM ladder in Brasil or somewhere, and Lutz was working for Chrysler


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (12:11 am)

    Matthew B: Yeah, they are stuck at the anger stage. I think it is the frustration of dealing with something that as far as they are concerned didn’t have to happen. Your analogy about dealing with death would more parallel a death before its time vs. old age.

    Well, my sister died while the whole family was celebrating our mom’s birthday, including all of JoAnn’s 5 children, my dad, myself, and my wife. JoAnn was 42. I’d consider that “before her time”.
    One hypothesis would be that the intense feelings associated with the EV1, represent the last thing that those people felt truly passionate about. To let go of that passion may be terrifying them with the fear that they may never again feel that level of passion. Like many emotions, it may not be rational, but it can certainly be powerful and intractable – such is the pity.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (12:17 am)

    Tagamet: I was talking about moving through the grieving process. I’m surrounded by reminders of both of my parents who have gone through transition many years ago, and yes, I miss them, but I’m not bitter – and I knew them a lot longer than 18 months. So no, I don’t understand the EV1 bitterness lingering, other than that it is shared by some former owners.Be well and believe,TagametLet’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS  (Quote)

    Tag – I love ya man, but I just cannot fathom you comparing the development, birth and demise of a technological transportation platform with the life and death of —- YOUR PARENTS! I mean, COME ON, BROTHER….. YOU KNOW?!!!

    For one — Human beings ( even a single soul ) are worth more than a whole slate of technologies. Yet comparing a scientific study, or the life of a technology that stood to change the life and death of hundreds of thousands of souls….It just doesn’t equate. It’s just plain — incongruent.

    For two, and please, please correct me if I’m wrong. Your parents weren’t murdered, were they? GM plainly murdered the battery technology and the enormous gains and science the whole EV-1 project birthed. And sold it to a large oil company.

    People who still lament over the EV-1 events aren’t heartbroken over a car they leased. They’re not ashamed of GM for what they had done, and just can’t get past. I think they’re people who know that history repeats itself. It’s why we study history and keep records of events.

    If you’re not aware of the giant ( and sadly very real ) conspiracy GM, Phillips Petroleum and Firestone Tire Co. passed off on American society by using misinformation and large doses of advertising money on radio and major newspapers across America to remove electric streetcar systems from all major U.S. cities, then I will surely give you some links to do a study of your own. It’s a very well documented historical event wherein GM worked a machiavellian scheme to wean society off of streetcars powered by electricity, and into GM buses powered by good old diesel oil with rubber tires, then turned the same trick to get people off buses and into privately-owned motorcars. It’s amazing stuff. It’s not some wacky conspiracy theory-it’s widely accepted as one of the most amazing modern-day industrial schemes ever proported upon a mass population.

    Thing is, Tag, it was done dishonestly, purely with monetary gain in mind. They printed ads with testimonials from various medical “experts” that said electric trains caused everything from cancer to tuberculousus and here we are today – strapped with gas gulping, pollution belching transportation that endangers our very peaceful existence and results in military and civilian deaths innumerable.

    GM did that.

    GM did the EV-1 fiasco. All in plain sight, plainly documented. The story clearly told. And history repeats. History will repeat again if we do not remember. If we do remember, we will not whine, we shall not moan and groan and live in the past. But if we go merrily along listening to every promise this now 70% publicly-owned company gives the public….it’s the old “fool me once, shame on you-fool me THRICE — SHAME ON US” scenario”.

    We want GM to erase those old memories. We want GM to re-write history the honest and just way. We look to this grand old corporation to stand up and dust of it’s old ways. We wait. We watch. BUT WE SHALL NOT FORGET.

    If GM builds a five seat MPV5 that masses of folks can buy and fit the kids and grandma in….If GM builds the Volt in numbers that make it accessible and available to more than a smidgeon of folks….THEN….THEN we can move on.

    As of today these are all BIG IFs. You, and others on this site that are not — but sound like GM employees cannot be naive. I just ask you to realize GM has a very jaded past. Even Mr. Lutz is on video at a luncheon on YouTube with EV and car aficionados saying it truly is the government mandates ( C.A.F.E ) that pushed Volt into reality. What that reality is – is yet to be determined. Are they going to take losses on the platform until, like Toyota, they can see grand profits? Will they put out a vehicle ( MPV5 ) that can be a household/family’s ONLY car – in EREV format?
    Will GM begin to truly change their ways and turn from their old old oil company and ICE parts manufacturing buddies?

    As GM says, “Stay tuned”.

    RECHARGE! James

    IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (12:29 am)

    Totally off topic (which is why I’m sticking this at the end of the thread.)

    I’m going on vacation the day after tomorrow. Tomorrow will be super busy between work and packing. And I won’t be back for another three weeks, so I probably won’t be on-line during that time period.

    Try not to argue too much while I’m gone.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (12:46 am)

    LauraM: Totally off topic (which is why I’m sticking this at the end of the thread.)I’m going on vacation the day after tomorrow. Tomorrow will be super busy between work and packing. And I won’t be back for another three weeks, so I probably won’t be on-line during that time period. Try not to argue too much while I’m gone.  (Quote)

    You’ll be sorely missed. I hope you have a blast and return refreshed, renewed and filled with new insights on the enconomics and politics you so profoundly post on.

    Have fun!

    P.S. LauraM – I was wondering if you read my late late post the other day after my photo essay-of which you stated you could not fathom why a photo of our President bowing to the Japanese Emperor related to the Volt? I was proud of my answer, besides the post right above this one, it may have been the best one I have ever written. Just wondered what you thought of my reply.

    RECHARGE! REJUVENATE! James

    IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (12:51 am)

    LauraM: I’m going on vacation the day after tomorrow. Tomorrow will be super busy between work and packing.

    I hope it is someplace warm an relaxing.

    Have a great time, we’ll keep the arguing going while you are gone!


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (12:57 am)

    Tagamet: One hypothesis would be that the intense feelings associated with the EV1, represent the last thing that those people felt truly passionate about.

    When you believe that you are “saving the planet” and that is taken away, it is pretty powerful.

    If Toyota rounded up every Prius and smashed them, I suspect you would see the same response.

    Tagamet: To let go of that passion may be terrifying them with the fear that they may never again feel that level of passion. Like many emotions, it may not be rational, but it can certainly be powerful and intractable – such is the pity.

    Agreed. The real question is if you let it become all consuming. Sure, you can be angry about something and when you talk about it, raw emotions bubble up.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (1:12 am)

    Matthew B: When you believe that you are “saving the planet” and that is taken away, it is pretty powerful. If Toyota rounded up every Prius and smashed them, I suspect you would see the same response.Agreed. The real question is if you let it become all consuming. Sure, you can be angry about something and when you talk about it, raw emotions bubble up.  (Quote)

    These quotes from Tag, and others like them make me wonder if they realize GM’s jaded history goes beyond the EV-1. WAY BEYOND.

    You know?

    I read an interview in Automobile Magazine yesterday of the Assistant Secretary of Transportation. In the interview she lauds the government’s spending ( federal, state and county ) on particular metropolitan electric streetcar and light rail projects!

    Imagine…..BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars …public ( tax ) money being spent trying to re-do the electric rail systems and infrastructure nationwide that GM schemed to de-rail ( sorry ) in the ’20′s and ’30s! It’s irony on such a HUGE BASIS it’s unbelievable!

    RECHARGE! James

    IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (1:31 am)

    James: I was wondering if you read my late late post the other day after my photo essay-of which you stated you could not fathom why a photo of our President bowing to the Japanese Emperor related to the Volt? I was proud of my answer, besides the post right above this one, it may have been the best one I have ever written. Just wondered what you thought of my reply.

    I did read it. I thought I replied, and I tried to go back and look, but I don’t remember the thread,and it was more than two pages back…

    Your reply makes sense. Oil does make us more dependent on other countries and the international system as it is. And the Volt will, hopefully, help with that. However, unfortunately, or fortunately, I think that the world economic system is so interdependent at this point, that in some way or another, we’ll always have to care about world opinion.

    Thank you for the good wishes. I’ll (I can’t come up with a verb. Post? Talk? Converse? )with you when I get back.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (1:37 am)

    Dan Petit,

    I just read your reply on the MPV5 thread. I didn’t see it earlier, or I would have replied sooner. Anyway, I really do apologize. I meant that the situation was insane. Not that you were insane for explaining it. I should have made that clearer. And, either way, it was a bad choice of words. And I’m really sorry.

    I posted a reply with my reasoning in the MPV5 thread if you’re curious. But my main point is that I’m sorry. And I hope you forgive me.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (3:16 am)

    Red HHR: Well he did get our name, so I hope that we are on the dealers Volt list. So when the Volt comes out in the low 30’s we will be on the list. Also just maybe we will be able to use our GM card dollars. But I will not hold my breath.  

    They seem to cover all the GM cars, so the Volt too.. probably up $1000.. thats a nice little bonus:

    https://www.gmflexcard.com/GMFlexCard/searchMakeModelYear.do


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (8:34 am)

    James: re reference to parents lost.

    That was my POINT! Losing loved ones is a far *greater* loss than a vehicle – and yet most people move on. (did you read *all* the posts on this)?

    Be well,
    Tagamet


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (8:40 am)

    James: These quotes from Tag, and others like them make me wonder if they realize GM’s jaded history goes beyond the EV-1. WAY BEYOND.

    You know?

    It’s not a matter of having an opinion because of “not remembering GM jaded past.” Tag’s whole point was that even if it is something as important as the death of a loved one, before their time or not, one needs to move on with life. His conclusion is that even with something as “important” as the death of the EV-1, one has to move on. People that can never get over it are stuck in the past, can’t enjoy the present, and are cursed with a jaded outlook of the futre. It is time to get over it. Anticipate the Volt. :-)

    (Tag, we were obviously typing at the same time. Did I put words in your mouth?)


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (10:38 am)

    Dave G: Tagamet: Roy H: GM used the Volt as a primary justification for the bailout. The government made it clear it was not interested in helping companies it they did not show a path to new eco-friendly technology.

    JMO, but I find that hard to believe.

    Dave G: I agree.

    #166

    I believe it. I’ve been saying it all along. It may not be the only reason, but it is a big one, IMHO.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (10:57 am)

    Tagamet:
    That was my POINT! Losing loved ones is a far *greater* loss than a vehicle – and yet most people move on. (did you read *all* the posts on this)?Be well,
    Tagamet  

    You do realize the humor in a psychiatrist figuring out that some people are CRAZY ;-)


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (3:40 pm)

    AnonymousProxy: The issue of any comparison is you can’t compare the two……yet. One doesn’t exist and to ask for actual numbers knowing there have not been any published is just wrong.So as a one answer to your question here’s the “Affordability” of a Prius.http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/trims-prices.htmlPrius III: $23,800Prius IV: $26,600Prius V: $28,070No incentives applied to meet this “Affordability” criteria.Why is one considerd “Trolling” when a valid argument is presented?  (Quote)

    How can you say “valid aurgument” when there is no actual cost of a VOLT? all I asked for… as the comment was “…the volt is not affordable…” to make that a VALID statement, you must know..KNOW the price..I want to know…other wise it is not a valid aurgument…


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (3:43 pm)

    carcus2: Ok. I’ll stop being a mitch now.  (Quote)

    show me yours and I will show you mine…


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (3:48 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): And yet, when another company chooses to outdo Toyota in this area, you decide to prosecute it as a weakness. If Toyota had been as transparent, don’t you think that you might have found that a succession of ideas and options were worked through as the Prius idea was firmed up for market (my point in bringing this up, which you’ve conveniently ignored)? Wouldn’t you have seen great evidence of changed minds before the first Prius hit the showroom? But then, this would require an argument with two sides; and we know how you guys are when an argument has more than just one.I guess the Prius just descended straight down from Buddha or whatever, as angels sang in Japanese (with subtitles).  (Quote)

    AND>>>>maybe the brake issue would have been resolved…


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (8:04 pm)

    Tag,

    I realize the issue has been framed with the terms kill, crush, and death but the personification ends there IMO. I presume there is no grief to move on from. My guess is that it is more a feeling of frustration and resentment. If accurate, then the analogy to the death of a family member doesn’t hold much relevence. It’s seems your asking them to “move on” from their beliefs and values.


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    Apr 27th, 2010 (9:34 pm)

    I think you’re on to what it really is Koz.


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    Apr 28th, 2010 (10:22 am)

    EV1 Debacle?
    Only debacle there Bob was that you guys killed it; I’m loving the revisionist history that spews out of your mouth Bob.

    They already had the Volt in the EV1 Serial Plug-In Hybrid prototype in 1999, and that had nothing to do with you Bob. That was the result of the P.N.G.V. (Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles) funded by the American People. Only difference was that the EV1 Serial Plug-In Hybrid had a turbine engine instead of an internal combustion engine like the Volt does.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#EV1_series_hybrid

    Can’t wait to see how many thumbs down this post gets, especially when you consider that what I’m stating is fact & truth and that’s assuming that any of you will get a chance to read it as all these posts have to be ‘approved’.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/GMEV1serieshybrid.jpg