Apr 20

Are you Reserving a Nissan LEAF Today?

 

[ad#post_ad]Nissan will begin deliveries of its LEAF pure electric car in selected US markets at the end of this year.

We didn’t talk much about this car until early last year when it was unveiled.  The car represents Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn’s vision for the future of his company and his belief that demand will be strong.

Though both Nissan and GM state we should not compare the LEAF and the Volt because they are in different categories, comparisons in the media are rife and frankly, inevitable.  Both cars will compete for sales to the early adopters and represent the country’s first steps off of oil.

Despite its arrival in the public eye a full two years after the Volt concept, Nissan has approached the LEAF’s launch quite differently from GM and now appears considerably ahead in transparency over the purchase process. The company has been signing up interested hand-raisers on their website, http://NissanUSA.com, and as of today report more than 115,000 in the US have registered.  In contrast, this site has registered just over 51,000 handraisers, and GM’s official site, anonymous sources indicate, has around 41,000.  There may also well be some overlap between the two Volt lists.

Today Nissan will begin accepting refundable $99 reservation deposits on the $25,280 LEAF, giving those on their early adopter list priority. Only those who had registered on the Nissan site by today will be able to register.  Open registration starts on May 15th. The car will not roll out nationwide until 2011.

Emails from Nissan will go out between 1PM and 6PM ET today giving registrants an exclusive link to place their deposit by credit card, configure their car, answer profile questions and to indicate their dealer of choice.

Yes we are Volt fans here, but I suspect many among us may also be on Nissan’s list. After all despite a one month earlier launch date, and two year earlier unveiling, GM has yet to release the Volt’s price or its intention to reward early supporters by allowing an early purchase option of the car.  Also, some among us may want both a Volt and a LEAF for their two car household.  Availability of both cars should be limited for most of 2011 anyway, so getting one’s hands on either may be a challenge.

So are you the LEAF list and reserving your car today?


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This entry was posted on Tuesday, April 20th, 2010 at 5:34 am and is filed under Competitors. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

COMMENTS: 293


  1. 1
    Dave G

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:40 am)

    I will never buy a pure BEV.


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    Loboc

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:58 am)

    Gotta love the way Ghosn is going full steam ahead. There are ads on local (Fort Worth, TX) Fox stations.

    This car complements Volt. I don’t believe that a pure BEV is competitive with Volt except for a certain cross-section of early adopters.

    I would love to have a BEV and an EREV in my garage. If they were both Volts, so much the better.

    We shall see how this plays out. GM may come on strong later this year and blanket Nissan’s noise. (It’s noise right now. I can’t buy one.)


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    Rashiid Amul

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:03 am)

    Nope. This car isn’t for me.
    It is too soon to rely on a BEV. At least for me.


  4. 4
    nuclearboy

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:07 am)

    Rashiid Amul: It is too soon to rely on a BEV. At least for me.

    +1
    The perfect answer.

    I can only add, I will not be buying any Nissans, not in a year, not for my dear.


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    Bruce

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:11 am)

    2 cars, 2 insurances, 2 maintenances, 2 cars depreciating, 2 much money


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    Jay

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:14 am)

    Dave G: I will never buy a pure BEV.  (Quote)

    Bit early to say that, no? Give the technology some time to develop. I wouldn’t buy a BEV *today* because of the range issues, but the early adopters who do will be the reason car companies keep developing better batteries. Imagine when most BEV’s, not just the Tesla Roadster, have a 300 mile range. Throw in the tech to recharge them in 10 minutes at a “power station” and voila! Sign me up!


  7. 7
    Loboc

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:15 am)

    Oh. I forgot to address the question. Yes, I am on the Leaf list. No, I don’t buy something this big sight-unseen.

    I get emails by being on the list. Nothing wrong with getting some direct information.


  8. 8
    JohnK

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:22 am)

    No, no Leaf. But it sure does burn in your heart with desire to be able to do something concrete. I know, we are doing it by being here. But Nissan knows how to capitolize on GM’s efforts. And the day before Earth Day! With a few Volts newly off the assembly line, I sure do hope that GM is going to have most of them show up at various Earth Day events.


  9. 9
    Loboc

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:26 am)

    Jay:
    Bit early to say that, no?Give the technology some time to develop.I wouldn’t buy a BEV *today* because of the range issues, but the early adopters who do will be the reason keep developing better batteries.Imagine when most BEV’s, not just the Tesla , have a 300 mile range.Throw in the tech to recharge them in 10 minutes at a “power station” and voila!Sign me up!  

    I don’t need all these caveats to buy a BEV.

    I can easily use a BEV-100 for my regular commute. I don’t have time to be driving around for 100 miles. (100 miles is literally 4 hours of driving in the city/burbs.) I need to get there, git-er-done, and get back. Very rarely would I go over 60 miles on one charge and DFW is mild enough weather to make the current battery tech a non-issue.

    My wife’s putting around (about 5 miles a day) makes Volt over-kill for her needs. A BEV-20 would be good enough.

    In my neighborhood, there are literally thousands (about half) of the people who could use an electric car for their daily needs and never be anxious about their range.


  10. 10
    Dave K.

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:29 am)

    The Leaf is a very good step forward for EV. And I will definitely demo drive one.

    The GEN 3 Leaf will need at least a 300 mile range. And a solar cell outer coating to trickle charge the battery as you drive and when parked. The EREV is the way to go for now. GM is leading the way with the Volt. And may be working on an EREV crossover.

    When GM finally makes an EREV pick up truck. Will celebrities continue to be chauffeured?

    =D-Volt


  11. 11
    Roy H

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:30 am)

    Glad to see this poll. I am interested in reducing pollution and CO2 emissions, and am not in the market for a car. This poll will give us immediate feedback on the true popularity of the Leaf. It would be nice to be able to separate out people like me, as in I don’t count in terms of choosing between BEV and EREV because I am not going to buy either. It would be useful to know how many people who answer the poll are actually in the market for a new car in the next couple of years.


  12. 12
    Dave G

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:33 am)

    Jay: Imagine when most BEV’s, not just the Tesla Roadster, have a 300 mile range. Throw in the tech to recharge them in 10 minutes at a “power station” and voila! Sign me up!

    How much power does it take to charge a 300 mile BEV in 10 minutes? Do the math. That much power can vaporize things. It’s not a spark, it’s an explosion. Now imagine plugging that into a car with snow dripping all over it. There’s no technology that can make this safe. It’s inherently dangerous. You won’t catch me within 100 feet of this.

    The dream of pure BEVs everywhere, I see it more as a nightmare. EREVs are the way to go.


  13. 13
    RB

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:36 am)

    I am on the Nissan list. While I have not decided for sure — still have to read their email this afternoon — my intention is to go ahead and reserve. While I would much rather have a Volt, even at a higher price, Volt availability here in NC where I live seems to be far in the future — somewhere between a number of years and forever. Volts are going to the well connected in high visibility cities, but realistically not here for me.

    So life goes on, and maybe the Leaf will be an interesting adventure. If Volts should eventually be available around here in NC (at one of our diminishing number of local dealers) I will be happy to reconsider.


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    firehawk

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:41 am)

    Here is the problem with the Volt. I live in KY. I want one. But who in the world knows when I and others can get one and be able to get it serviced locally?? And just how much will the cost?? How many will be produced and where will they be available?? GM has really been a let down in this area, so I give Nissan a big thumbs up for now.

    Hawk


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    Jim I

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:45 am)

    A BEV with a “real” range of 150 miles would work for me, but it also has to have some style, and the Leaf doesn’t, IMHO.

    So at this point in time, I still think that it is a Volt for me, but the questions are: When can I get one in Ohio, and what will it cost???

    I think it is time for GM to step up and answer these questions!

    And a little priority to those of us that have been supporting GM and the Volt wouldn’t hurt, either…………………


  16. 16
    Gsned57

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:47 am)

    RB: I am on the Nissan list.While I have not decided for sure — still have to read their email this afternoon — my intention is to go ahead and reserve.While I would much rather have a Volt, even at a higher price,Volt availability here in NC where I live seems to be far in the future — somewhere between a number of years and forever.Volts are going to the well connected in high visibility cities, but realistically not here for me.So life goes on, and maybe the Leaf will be an interesting adventure. If Volts should eventually be available around here in NC (at one of our diminishing number of local dealers) I will be happy to reconsider.  

    After meeting you in NY I saw how excited you were to get in and check out the Volt. If I were in the market for a 4 seater commuter car and lived outside the major market area I’d probably consider the same thing.

    I’ve gotta say that Nissan is doeing everything right with the release of this car and GM should take note. Affordable price for the new tech, having a want list that will actually be used (gives a 2 week advantage to the rest of the world), and a small depsit before you get to drive the car ($99 is a lot cheaper than what it cost me to go to NYC for the weekend for a Volt test drive). Lastly they have very huge plans for rolling out a lot of these cars. I really can’t find fault in the way they are rolling this car out and I’d hope GM does exactly the same thing.


  17. 17
    koz

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:57 am)

    Voted no, but if the option today was for a reservation on a BEV Volt I may have voted differently. I would have also voted yes if it were for an EREV Volt. I want electric and I want to buy American. The Leaf does not qualify in my book.

    Note to American car manufacturers: my position is NOT permanent. Make what I want or I will be forced to go elsewhere. My name may not be mainstream America but I have failed to meet that person yet either.


  18. 18
    Bill Marsh

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:59 am)

    (click to show comment)


  19. 19
    tom w

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:01 am)

    I could use some advice folks. If I could test drive a Leaf and it was available, I’d lease it today for 3 years.

    But I haven’t been able to test drive it.
    If I order it now, would it be built in Japan (I’d rather have one built in Tennessee).
    And if I order it now, what if it turns out that just a short while longer I’d be able to get a Volt.

    I’ll probably sit and wait for a clearer picture, but it is hard because I really want to drive electric. But I also want to buy american.

    Advice welcome.


  20. 20
    Michael

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:04 am)

    I will not reserve a LEAF today and here’s the reason why. Yesterday afternoon I drove the 100 miles down to my chosen Chevrolet dealer (the dealership that has been in business for 102 years) and put my deposit down on a 2011 Volt. :-)

    They treated us like I was a VIP or something, VERY friendly. They said I was the first one on the list and that I would get the first one they could get their hands on. They felt that they were in line to get the first one that comes to New Mexico and they would order mine as soon as GM said they could place orders. I definitely did not get the impression that I would have to wait until 2012. I got the feeling that I might be in for a photo-op when they “make delivery!” 8-)

    We discussed expected MSRP and possible dealer markup. Details to remained sealed. ;-)


  21. 21
    BillR

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:11 am)

    Dave G:
    How much power does it take to charge a 300 mile BEV in 10 minutes?Do the math.That much power can vaporize things.It’s not a spark, it’s an explosion.Now imagine plugging that into a car with snow dripping all over it.There’s no technology that can make this safe.It’s inherently dangerous.You won’t catch me within 100 feet of this.The dream of pure BEVs everywhere, I see it more as a nightmare.EREVs are the way to go.  

    Here’s a video of someone trying to fast charge their LEAF.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YY7TGnSaHw&feature=related


  22. 22
    joe

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:13 am)

    I buy only American cars , and I don’t expect to do differently in the future…..if only more people felt like I did, our country would be in much better shape economically. Today, the new Ford and GM cars are more then just equal, they are better! There are no good reasons to buy foreign….I know I’ll catch a lot of flak for saying this.

    To answer the question about the Leaf, I would not buy one even if it were American. The Leaf is a very limited car and many surveys suggest the Leaf will be a failure.

    Until batteries are much better and with the infrastructure in place, these pure electric cars will be sold in small numbers. Nissan is in for a rude awakening!

    Is that enough for opinions??


  23. 23
    BobS

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:18 am)

    nuclearboy:
    +1
    The perfect answer.I can only add, I will not be buying any Nissans, not in a year, not for my dear.  

    Good to hear from Dr Seuss.


  24. 24
    Dave K.

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:25 am)

    joe: Nissan is in for a rude awakening!

    Nissan will do fine with the Leaf as long as the tax credits last. Wouldn’t be surprised to see California absorbing 80,000 Leaf the first model year. This car is going to be crazy popular in the Bay area.

    =D-Volt


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    BobS

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:26 am)

    Roy H: Glad to see this poll. This poll will give us immediate feedback on the true popularity of the Leaf.

    At least feedback on the popularity of the Leaf among died-in-the-wool Volt fans. Let’s see how many actually plunk down the $99. That will be a more accurate poll.


  26. 26
    Nelson

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:28 am)

    I just don’t understand one thing. If the Volt can obtain 40+ MPG in charge sustaining mode, why won’t GM make a car that runs continually in charge sustaining mode. 40+ MPG is better than any ICE only car GM has out there now.

    NPNS!


  27. 27
    BobS

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:29 am)

    Dave K.:
    Nissan will do fine with the Leaf as long as the tax credits last. Wouldn’t be surprised to see California absorbing 80,000 Leaf the first model year. This car is going to be crazy popular in the Bay area.=D-Volt  

    I wonder if these states that are cash-strapped will pull the plug on the tax incentives if they are too popular, (California, and Georgia) When these laws were enacted their cash situation was much better.


  28. 28
    RB

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:29 am)

    16 Gsned57: After meeting you in NY I saw how excited you were to get in and check out the Volt

    I was and I am. If I could have driven one of the NYC Volts home, I would have, and if I could buy one now, I would. But I have not received even the slightest encouragement from gm that mine is a realistic expectation. When I asked in NYC, the gm people would say “And where do you live?”, and when I said where, they frowned and looked sad. So I need to be realistic.

    Best wishes to you and yours, until we meet again. :)


  29. 29
    Randy

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:34 am)

    joe: I buy only American cars , and I don’t expect to do differently in the future…..if only more people felt like I did, our country would be in much better shape economically. Today, the new Ford and GM cars are more then just equal, they are better! There are no good reasons to buy foreign….I know I’ll catch a lot of flak for saying this.

    I agree 100% ONly if you have a grudge against your own country and your own fellow americans should you be buying a foreign car. IF foreigners bought as many american built cars as we buy theirs i would be OK wit it,but thats just not the case.


  30. 30
    Xiaowei

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:38 am)

    I live in OZ, so obviously I had to vote no. If the Leaf was released here in the same time frame as in the US, then I would have voted yes without much need for thought – as the Volt is still a VERY long way off for us.


  31. 31
    Randy

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:39 am)

    Nelson: I just don’t understand one thing.If the Volt can obtain 40+ MPG in charge sustaining mode, why won’t GM make a car that runs continually in charge sustaining mode.40+ MPG is better than any ICE only car GM has out there now.NPNS!  

    I think they are saying its 50MPG


  32. 32
    Schmeltz

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:39 am)

    I have been wondering since I first saw the LEAF why Nissan didn’t take their sister company’s (Renault) Fluence Z.E. and Nissan-ize it for America? IMO, the Fluence is an attractive, non-controversial looking All-Electric car. I don’t personally care for the design of the LEAF and I know some people here absolutely loathe it! It will be interesting to see how Nissan’s strategy all play out, especially in the U.S. Gotta say though, Ghosn has guts!


  33. 33
    Jerry Arzt

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:41 am)

    I’m on the “unofficial” waiting list at this site, about number 10,000. But, excuse me, where is the Volt waiting list on the ‘official site?” I looked, and I can find no way to sign up to a list. I did sign up at the site some time ago so I could comment, but I could find no way to get on any “list.”

    By the way, this site is both more user friendly and much more informative then the “official” site. GM seems to have retreated from its original Volt “transparency”, and such things as pricing, availability, and last minute technical changes have become state (of GM) secrets. I now know much more about the Leaf than the Volt, and I think that GM is making a huge mistake by giving up the the leading edge hype to Nissan. By the time the GM production really gets rolling, there could be 200,000 Leafs skipping around towns all over America!


  34. 34
    Bill Marsh

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:56 am)

    Michael: I will not reserve a LEAF today and here’s the reason why.Yesterday afternoon I drove the 100 miles down to my chosen Chevrolet dealer (the dealership that has been in business for 102 years) and put my deposit down on a 2011 Volt.
    They treated us like I was a VIP or something, VERY friendly. They said I was the first one on the list and that I would get the first one they could get their hands on.They felt that they were in line to get the first one that comes to New Mexico and they would order mine as soon as GM said they could place orders.I definitely did not get the impression that I would have to wait until 2012.I got the feeling that I might be in for a photo-op when they “make delivery!”
    We discussed expected MSRP and possible dealer markup.Details to remained sealed.   

    What? Is GM allowing this now? I’d do that today if it was available. Please give more info.


  35. 35
    Gordon Green

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:56 am)

    I’ll go ahead and reserve a Leaf today.

    But if I ultimately buy it depends on when delivery is made. If GM can deliver the Volt to me earlier at a reasonable price, I’ll switch.

    The Leaf is a compromise, which I don’t like to do. But given the choice of nothing vs. something, I’ll choose something.

    I’ll get a three year lease, then choose a no compromise electric like the Tesla Model S, or perhaps the Infiniti Leaf clone when the lease expires. Or who knows, there will probably be lots of no compromise choices by then.


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    nuclearboy

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:00 am)

    joe: I buy only American cars , and I don’t expect to do differently in the future…..if only more people felt like I did, our country would be in much better shape economically. Today, the new Ford and GM cars are more then just equal, they are better! There are no good reasons to buy foreign….I know I’ll catch a lot of flak for saying this.
    To answer the question about the Leaf, I would not buy one even if it were American. The Leaf is a very limited car and many surveys suggest the Leaf will be a failure.
    Until batteries are much better and with the infrastructure in place, these pure electric cars will be sold in small numbers. Nissan is in for a rude awakening!
    Is that enough for opinions??

    +1
    Another great answer.


  37. 37
    Sal MBA

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:01 am)

    I am putting my $99 down today for a 3 year lease. After that, the volt should be available in the NYC area. I hoped that GM would have came out before today with their price structure and availability schedules, perhaps then I would have waited. However, going with the leaf is the best decision for me based upon available facts. And yes I will be a two auto owner, keeping my Honda Ridgeline Truck.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:03 am)

    Nelson: 40+ MPG is better than any ICE only car GM has out there now.

    It would surely be wiser to sell a hybrid cruze design with 5 seats and a price tag easily less than 30K than an EREV that only gets 40+ mpg.


  39. 39
    BLDude

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:10 am)

    Nissan wins the day today in the p.r. battle between the Leaf vs. the Volt. I really like how Nissan is conducting the sign up program for the Leaf. A potential buyer can actually do something today that is meaningful in their life. The rest of us who want a Volt can only speculate and twiddle our thumbs.

    I am on the Leaf list but I will not be putting a deposit down today. I will regularly need more than 100 miles daily when driving around for my business. The same is true for my wife’s driving needs – sometimes she needs more than 100 miles daily while driving around the state of Iowa on business. If I could however I would be putting down my $99.


  40. 40
    Michael

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:21 am)

    Bill Marsh:
    What? Is GM allowing this now? I’d do that today if it was available. Please give more info.  

    It isn’t a matter of GM “doing this now.” Many individual Chevrolet dealerships have been accepting deposits for awhile now. Mine just decided that they would take my money. Like I said, I am the first at this dealer in Albuquerque. There is no guarantee that I will actually be able to order one soon, or receive one in a year. It’s just a step. What it does guarantee is that I get the first one to that dealer, who thinks he’ll get the first one in New Mexico. :-)

    I suggest you go to the largest Chevy dealer in your area and start a discussion.


  41. 41
    fredevad

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:25 am)

    Had to vote “Not interested”. The Leaf won’t work for me. Although my daily commute is only 36 miles round trip, I regularly drive over 150 miles twice every other weekend, with a couple of 300 mile trips every 2-3 months.

    Just because Nissan is first to announce their pricing and take deposits, doesn’t mean that GM isn’t leading the way. I have a feeling that no other [major] car maker would be on a solid path to electrics right now if GM hadn’t been the first to commit their electric EREV to production.


  42. 42
    CorvetteGuy

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:26 am)

    No. Not interested in BEV LEAF.
    If the BEV MINI had the same exact price and specs, I would say YES. That’s a much better looking car.

    But in reality, the lease is not up on wife’s car until next April. Availability of the VOLT should be better by then. And I’m hoping for a good lease program from GM.


  43. 43
    tom w

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:32 am)

    Trying to decide if I should put the $99 and reserve the Leaf??

    I would only lease for 3 years until I could get Amercian car.

    But if I put in the leaf charger, is that a standard charger that would work for any furture EREV/BEV I get or is that for LEAF only.

    Guess I could call the dealer and ask.


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    Jim I

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:42 am)

    Michael:
    It isn’t a matter of GM “doing this now.”Many individual Chevrolet dealerships have been accepting deposits for awhile now.Mine just decided that they would take my money.Like I said, I am the first at this dealer in Albuquerque.There is no guarantee that I will actually be able to order one soon, or receive one in a year.It’s just a step.What it does guarantee is that I get the first one to that dealer, who thinks he’ll get the first one in New Mexico.
    I suggest you go to the largest Chevy dealer in your area and start a discussion.  

    ================================================

    I have been to my local Chevy dealership several times. Although my name is first on the list they started at my request, they would in no way take any money until they have more information from GM about availability and pricing.

    IMHO, GM really needs to get moving on this. Other than the Leaf, is there any other real competition out there? So why hold back on the pricing, trim levels, options, and availability? I am not getting their reasoning on this………….

    COME ON GM! – It is time!!!!!!


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    statik

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:46 am)

    tom w: I could use some advice folks. If I could test drive a Leaf and it was available, I’d lease it today for 3 years.But I haven’t been able to test drive it.If I order it now, would it be built in Japan (I’d rather have one built in Tennessee).And if I order it now, what if it turns out that just a short while longer I’d be able to get a Volt.I’ll probably sit and wait for a clearer picture, but it is hard because I really want to drive electric. But I also want to buy american.Advice welcome.  (Quote)

    tom w: Trying to decide if I should put the $99 and reserve the Leaf??I would only lease for 3 years until I could get Amercian car.But if I put in the leaf charger, is that a standard charger that would work for any furture EREV/BEV I get or is that for LEAF only.Guess I could call the dealer and ask.  (Quote)

    Hey Tom,

    These early ones will definitely be made in Japan, and the charger will work for either. (although, I don’t think I personally would buy a charger from Nissan or GM directly) I wouldn’t bother trying to hit up your local Nissan dealer for info like that either, lol.

    A lot of people are in the ‘for sure,’ or ‘heck no’ camps, but I think if you are on the fence, you have nothing to lose by plunking down $99. You won’t be required to lock in until late summer, and that will certainly give you enough time to see what Chevy has in store for the Volt…pricing, rollout specs, etc.

    I think it is a great day. Today, anyone in America who can afford a new car, has the option to put money down on a electric vehicle. Sure, it would have been great if this breakthrough was from GM, but this one time only, the domestic-foreign thing does not get consideration from me, there are too many other mitigating factors at play.

    For myself, it fits my mantra of “Any EV that I can service inside its electric range that also has at least 4 seats.” It will intially be a ‘plus’ car to the family, just to see if the Leaf’s billing lives up to my expectation of it, I will swap out a car for the Volt.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:51 am)

    Michael: It isn’t a matter of GM “doing this now.” Many individual Chevrolet dealerships have been accepting deposits for awhile now. Mine just decided that they would take my money. Like I said, I am the first at this dealer in Albuquerque. There is no guarantee that I will actually be able to order one soon, or receive one in a year. It’s just a step. What it does guarantee is that I get the first one to that dealer, who thinks he’ll get the first one in New Mexico.
    I suggest you go to the largest Chevy dealer in your area and start a discussion.

    When the date was announced on taking 2010 Camaro Orders came out, we had a special website up to take deposit info. It worked great and we had inquiries/deposits from all over the U.S. and a couple from Europe.

    Then GM had their troubles and deliveries were delayed (for us) by 6 months. So, even though we have a website ready to go for VOLT, I have been instructed NOT to take deposits yet. I sure wish I could, I think it would help if all dealers did. That would give GM a better measurement on real demand.


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:56 am)

    Nelson: I just don’t understand one thing. If the Volt can obtain 40+ MPG in charge sustaining mode, why won’t GM make a car that runs continually in charge sustaining mode. 40+ MPG is better than any ICE only car GM has out there now.
    NPNS!

    It would cost too much.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:58 am)

    Jim I: I have been to my local Chevy dealership several times. Although my name is first on the list they started at my request, they would in no way take any money until they have more information from GM about availability and pricing.

    I experienced the same thing you did at my dealer, “we don’t want to take any money now.” They did just change General Sales Managers, which may have something to do with it, or maybe I just got to the right person this time. I think part of it is that they are “starting to believe” as Tag would say.

    Maybe it’s time to go back to them and tell them that this guy in New Mexico just made a deposit at his dealer. Tell them that they shouldn’t lag behind a place that many Americans don’t even know is a state. ;-)


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    Michael

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:04 am)

    CorvetteGuy: So, even though we have a website ready to go for VOLT, I have been instructed NOT to take deposits yet. I sure wish I could, I think it would help if all dealers did. That would give GM a better measurement on real demand.

    I couldn’t agree with you more. That’s why I posted early this morning, to let people here know that I got this measure of success yesterday. :-)

    Remember this dealer has been around for 102 years. They know the business and they have seen many a new car launch. I think they might sense a reVoltution coming.


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    DonC

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:05 am)

    I’m with RB. I’m on the Leaf list. I’d much prefer a Volt for many reasons, not the least of which is that the Volt is a great story and will be an absolutely great car. But the very low production numbers means that actually getting one seems problematic at best. And I’m not prepared to pay a big premium over MSRP for one. On the other hand, given that I’m in one of the roll out markets and probably high on the list, my chances of being able to lease a Leaf would seem much better.

    Unlike many here, for me range is not much of an issue. The lease is also attractive. I couldn’t see paying $850/month for a year lease of the mini-E with its laptop battery pack, but $349/month for a three year lease for a Leaf seems reasonable.

    As a side note to statik’s comment about not buying a 1711 charger from Nissan, everything I know about the Leaf rollout says that in order to buy at least one of the early cars you will have to have a charger installed by Nissan. (This isn’t such a huge deal since the chargers are installed as part of the DOE test). My understanding is that you also have to have a garage and consent to having Nissan use the information about your driving habits. Subsequent sales will doubtless be different.


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    V=IR

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:09 am)

    Definitely yes. I am not in one of the roll-out areas, so who knows when I’ll get a chance to actually buy. I want to at least have the option when they are available. I actually look at this reservation process as a way to demonstrate to manufacturers my interest in an electric vehicle. Nissan (and others) may use the data to decide which locales are really EV friendly.
    I think this should be another great day in EV history.


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    Tagamet

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:11 am)

    Michael: I will not reserve a LEAF today and here’s the reason why.Yesterday afternoon I drove the 100 miles down to my chosen Chevrolet dealer (the dealership that has been in business for 102 years) and put my deposit down on a 2011 Volt.
    They treated us like I was a VIP or something, VERY friendly. They said I was the first one on the list and that I would get the first one they could get their hands on.They felt that they were in line to get the first one that comes to New Mexico and they would order mine as soon as GM said they could place orders.I definitely did not get the impression that I would have to wait until 2012.I got the feeling that I might be in for a photo-op when they “make delivery!”
    We discussed expected MSRP and possible dealer markup.Details to remained sealed.   

    Exciting news! You deserve a lot of credit for your initiative, and I really believe that it will be rewarded. You’re definitely several steps ahead of most of us, and in a nauseatingly enviable position! (g) KEEP US POSTED!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:24 am)

    My issue is if I buy a Leaf, then it doesn’t make sense to have a Volt. Simple reason: One car garage and no electricity near my other parking space. As long as I live where I do now, I can’t see me having more than one BEV or EREV.

    We’ve talked a lot about urban folks who have no garage or street only parking. Add to that the single car garage as another potentially limiting factor.


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    Tall Pete

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:25 am)

    Nelson: I just don’t understand one thing. If the Volt can obtain 40+ MPG in charge sustaining mode, why won’t GM make a car that runs continually in charge sustaining mode. 40+ MPG is better than any ICE only car GM has out there now.

    The thing is, the other cars GM make don’t have the same aerodynamics as the Volt. Chances are that the charge sustaining mode would not give so good a MPG score in an SUV or a pickup truck.

    Also, the price of providing an electric motor along with the conventional one would increase the final price of the car. Although a transmission would no longer be required so…


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:25 am)

    Here’s a little more to chew on (from ABG):

    “U.S. demand for gasoline sets all-time record for March, trend expected to continue throughout summer”


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    Tagamet

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:26 am)

    CorvetteGuy:
    When the date was announced on taking 2010 Orders came out, we had a special website up to take deposit info. It worked great and we had inquiries/deposits from all over the U.S. and a couple from Europe.
    Then GM had their troubles and deliveries were delayed (for us) by 6 months. So, even though we have a website ready to go for VOLT, I have been instructed NOT to take deposits yet. I sure wish I could, I think it would help if all dealers did. That would give GM a better measurement on real demand.  

    When you say “I have been instructed not to take deposits yet”, is that a dealership policy or one from GM directly?
    Thanks,

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Daniel

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:30 am)

    joe: I buy only American cars , and I don’t expect to do differently in the future…..if only more people felt like I did, our country would be in much better shape economically. Today, the new Ford and GM cars are more then just equal, they are better! There are no good reasons to buy foreign….I know I’ll catch a lot of flak for saying this.To answer the question about the Leaf, I would not buy one even if it were American. The Leaf is a very limited car and many surveys suggest the Leaf will be a failure.Until batteries are much better and with the infrastructure in place, these pure electric cars will be sold in small numbers. Nissan is in for a rude awakening! Is that enough for opinions??  (Quote)

    +1


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    NASA-Eng

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:31 am)

    joe: Until batteries are much better and with the infrastructure in place, these pure electric cars will be sold in small numbers. Nissan is in for a rude awakening! Is that enough for opinions??  (Quote)

    I agree Joe. There is alot of risk for Nissan with this car and it’s limited range. Even a small percent of LEAF owners not paying attention and getting stranded could be bad for marketing and Nissan’s image. The Volt Platform takes this off the table. Ask Lyle how much hassle his Electric Mini has been. As I recall he once wrote he would not buy a car without the range extender ICE.

    I see a short “Buzz” and buying burst for the LEAF, then it quickly fades as it’s limitation surface. Don’t get me wrong it has a market, but I’m betting it’s less then 10% of prospective car owners. The Volt has a market reach of ~ 50% prospective car buyers in my humble opinion.

    Go Volt


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    Neutron Flux

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:39 am)

    This is a pre order not an order. It is a fully refundable deposit. Nissan will not , I repeat will not build one car based on the numbers for this pre order. The actual committed order will not be made until August. This does two things, helps marketing know possible demand and where to pin point surveys to find out why people who pre ordered did to help with marketing to the rest. Creates a mailing list of more than mildly interested Leaf fans to help solidify the purchase decision for August. It saves your place in line for those who decide to commit in August. By then Volt will have hopefully announced its price & availability & a final decision can be made. Be wary of buying the offered charging station from AeroVironment with install, Installation costs may be on teh high side. The EVSE is only going to cost around $700.-800.00 the rest of the $2,200.00 estimate is parts, labor, & load testing. The home inspection & estimate are reportably free so you might get a quote to run conduit to a dedicated 40 AMP breaker to where your EVSE will be mounted before they come out so you have a comparison. I will be prepared with an alternate quote before they come out so I am not sold a bill of goods. I understand you may be able to purchase the charger only without install but will have a reduced warranty on the product. Am told there is a Federal 50% tax credit up to 2K for install costs + equipment. This would apply regardless of who does it I would think. But as in most cases you have to have owed that much in taxes to get the write off, just like the credit on the Leaf. How much if any will roll over to the next year is unknown.


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    Tagamet

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:40 am)

    Michael:
    I experienced the same thing you did at my dealer, “we don’t want to take any money now.”They did just change General Sales Managers, which may have something to do with it, or maybe I just got to the right person this time.I think part of it is that they are “starting to believe” as Tag would say.Maybe it’s time to go back to them and tell them that this guy in New Mexico just made a deposit at his dealer.Tell them that they shouldn’t lag behind a place that many Americans don’t even know is a state.   

    New Mexico is a STATE??? (lol). Seriously, I was thinking of making the rounds of the local dealers again with the same tactic.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    LazP

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:42 am)

    Reading the comments today I came to the conclusion that even with all its transparency to date about the technology, GM is trying to imitate Apple and other high tech companies to create scarcity by limited product lunch. I think this is what GM is trying to do. I think they will drastically increase production if they recognize a clamor for the car. They certainly have the capacity to do that. The Leaf will help that. My bet is that we will see a lot more Volts out there lot faster. Selecting the Volt over the Leaf will be a nobrainer for most once both are available and the Volt is priced reasonably.


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    Steph

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:02 am)

    The LEAF has too many shortcomings for me. I am not interested.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:04 am)

    statik: you have nothing to lose by plunking down $99

    Well I guess you are right, I’m heading over to register and get in line. And as was later stated maybe there will be some credit towards the Nissan charger, I hope you are correct that it will work for subsequent HOPEFULLY American made EVs I get if I go with 3 year lease for the Leaf.

    thanks Statik!


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    Starcast

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:05 am)

    “Are you Reserving a Nissan LEAF Today?”

    I am little surprised anyone is. We know little about this car no real world test and not many people have even seen one. It is made in JAPAN. It may have been put togeather very quickly just to get US tax payers money. It is very likely it will not live up to the hype. Real world maybe far less then 100 miles. What is the Battiery warranty? If the batt dies after 50 miles 70 miles is it replaced?

    We know so little about this car BUT it is only $99 so I guess some will do so. I think if it was $500 they would get very few.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:06 am)

    CorvetteGuy: Nelson: I just don’t understand one thing. If the Volt can obtain 40+ MPG in charge sustaining mode, why won’t GM make a car that runs continually in charge sustaining mode. 40+ MPG is better than any ICE only car GM has out there now.
    NPNS! It would cost too much.

    Would it? Why would it cost too much if GM could reduce the battery size by 80% (so it only needs to store electricty for satisfying surge demands, instead of satisfying an AER), and therefore reduce the cost by maybe as much as $6,000? Wouldn’t that result in a car priced around a fully loaded Prius?


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:21 am)

    Nelson: I just don’t understand one thing.If the Volt can obtain 40+ MPG in charge sustaining mode, why won’t GM make a car that runs continually in charge sustaining mode.40+ MPG is better than any ICE only car GM has out there now.NPNS!  

    While it might seem counter intuitive, a large battery is required for CS-mode operation. The reason has to do with buffering. The engine/generator comes as close as possible to providing the actual load required by the driver, but it can not do so perfectly. This requires some very shallow cycling of the battery; to supply extra power when needed and to recover braking energy (and absorb a little extra back to the battery for use later).

    A large battery using about 1 – 5% of it’s capacity as you drive can last the life of the car (even if you never plug it in). However, if you installed a smaller battery to accomplish the same thing, it would have to be cycled much more deeply to do the same job; and it’s lifetime would be extremely limited. If you have a battery of the size to allow for long life in CS-mode operation, it would make no sense not to plug it in (because it would be big enough to).

    Now, if the battery state of the art advances to the point where a very small battery can be cycled economically for CS-mode (or if an ultra-capacitor becomes inexpensive and small enough, or if something brand new comes along which can be cycled almost endlessly in a small, economical form-factor) this may change. However, it will require some time, a ready marketplace (which Volt and other EVs provide), and much more research before a dedicated buffering device can make possible a “Plug-Free Volt.”


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    carcus1

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:22 am)

    “It appears that the biggest game changer will be electric vehicles,” Ford said during a speech in Detroit.
    – Bill Ford Jr., April 2010

    Ford: Plan includes 5 new high-mileage vehicles
    http://www.freep.com/article/20100415/BUSINESS01/100415077/1014/business01?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
    ______________________________________________

    As I don’t live in one of the initial Leaf rollout states, I’m going to wait and see what Ford has to offer in the electric Focus. I like the styling of the Focus and I’m expecting good things from the sync system they develop for this car.

    / Not saying I won’t buy the Leaf. I just want to know what my options are.


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    tom w

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:26 am)

    I can’t figure how to plunk my $99 dollars down, when i click on the “reserve your leaf” button, it just shows a video.

    I’m trying to reserve my place in line, but I can’t figure out how.

    Also I see under the price option, it says $2,000 INITIAL payment in addition to the $349 lease, I thought you just paid $349 * 36 for 3 years. So thats more disinformation I’ve received.

    $349 a month1 – 36 month lease
    ($1,999 initial customer payment)

    So leasing went from a good deal at 349 * 36 = 12,600 to $14,600, at that you might as well buy the car, but I don’t want to buy the car, i want to lease it for 3 years and then get an american car.


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    Noel Park

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:27 am)

    Dave G: I will never buy a pure BEV.

    #1

    I will never buy a Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, nor any of the rest. I have enough cars and trucks right now to last me the rest of my life. So, unless and until GM, and preferably Chevrolet, comes up with a car that I “have to buy”, I’m outta the game.

    I would love to have a Volt and a Chevrolet equivalent of a Leaf in my garage. I would buy either one of those today.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:31 am)

    Jim in PA:
    Would it?Why would it cost too much if GM could reduce the battery size by 80% (so it only needs to store electricty for satisfying surge demands, instead of satisfying an AER), and therefore reduce the cost by maybe as much as $6,000? Wouldn’t that result in a car priced around a fully loaded Prius?  

    I’ve got to quit posting before I read all the comments, lol.

    In this case, I believe the announced 20-mile AER version of the Volt represents the very thing you are suggesting. A half-size battery is probably the minimum reasonable to expect good CS-mode performance at the current state of the Li/Ion art.


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    max_headroom

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:31 am)

    My answer: absolutely NOT!


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:33 am)

    The results of your poll are kind of skewed. Most of the people reading this site are fans of the Volt or they wouldn’t be here. Every time I make a negative Volt comment on this site I get slammed.

    I don’t believe any vehicle that burns fuel is a solution to the US’s transportation, pollution or now economic problems. We are shipping ever larger amounts of money to foreign countries just to buy something that we’ll burn up and pollute our environment. Any businessman will tell you that you can’t do this very long an stay viable. Every economic downturn in the last 50 years was preceded by a spike in oil prices. The higher the spike the more severe the downturn.

    Granted the Volt is better than the Prius, when you consider the stock Prius goes nowhere without gas. But the Volt still has a fuel burning engine. GM has done better, having produced a full electric car that got an EPA certified 144 miles on a charge using “inferior” NiMH batteries in 1999.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:37 am)

    The idea of the Leaf is good… BUT I have range anxiety… and until the battery / ultra capacitor technology gets good enough… I will go with the VOLT. (and by then the Volt/GM will have it and probably execute it better)

    Plus as all know here the Volt is a cool piece of technology.
    I want a car I can get in and drive almost anywhere anytime. I want a car that will let me go around town, take a trip through the mountains, the desert, the beach, and snow country.
    This car appears to be able to do it with comfort and great execution of achieving energy independence.
    I have a Prius now and it has done most of that quite well.

    The VOLT is the next logical better step plus a great hi-tech driving experience.

    I just hope GM will/can make enough Volts to meet the demand.
    Imagine an assembly plant that will have to run 24/7 … pretty cool.


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    Rashiid Amul

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:40 am)

    Randy C.: The results of your poll are kind of skewed.Most of the people reading this site are fans of the Volt or they wouldn’t be here.Every time I make a negative Volt comment on this site I get slammed.

    I just slammed ya with a -1, but just for fun. :)


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:42 am)

    Randy C.: The results of your poll are kind of skewed.Most of the people reading this site are fans of the Volt or they wouldn’t be here.Every time I make a negative Volt comment on this site I get slammed.I don’t believe any vehicle that burns fuel is a solution to the US’s transportation, pollution or now economic problems.We are shipping ever larger amounts of money to foreign countries just to buy something that we’ll burn up and pollute our environment.Any businessman will tell you that you can’t do this very long an stay viable.Every economic downturn in the last 50 years was preceded by a spike in oil prices.The higher the spike the more severe the downturn.Granted the Volt is better than the Prius, when you consider the stock Prius goes nowhere without gas.But the Volt still has a fuel burning engine.GM has done better, having produced a full electric car that got an EPA certified 144 miles on a charge using “inferior” NiMH batteries in 1999.  

    Don’t fall for an urban legend. Bob Boniface (designer of the Volt) told me to my face that no EV1 ever got more than 80 miles to a charge — on any battery.


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    Zachary Taylor (Jackson)

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:46 am)

    Circumstances require me to wait. I’m not buying any car for awhile.

    I plan to make this into an advantage; I’ll keep watching as I wait.

    Frankly, any EV will have to show me a lot to compete with the Volt.


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    StevenU

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:48 am)

    Where is “GM’s official site”? I do not recall hearing about any official list being generated.


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    Michael

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:49 am)

    Randy C.: Every time I make a negative Volt comment on this site I get slammed.

    Rashiid Amul: I just slammed ya with a -1, but just for fun. :)

    -1 is not a slam. -20 is a slam! People here don’t usually *slam* someone who makes a thoughtful statement critical of the Volt. People get slammed for just lashing out on a tirade just to be as negative as possible. These are usually trolls, and I don’t *think* you are a troll. You can see plenty of examples yesterday. 8-)


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    statik

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:50 am)

    tom w: I can’t figure how to plunk my $99 dollars down, when i click on the “reserve your leaf” button, it just shows a video.I’m trying to reserve my place in line, but I can’t figure out how.Also I see under the price option, it says $2,000 INITIAL payment in addition to the $349 lease, I thought you just paid $349 * 36 for 3 years. So thats more disinformation I’ve received.$349 a month1 – 36 month lease($1,999 initial customer payment)So leasing went from a good deal at 349 * 36 = 12,600 to $14,600, at that you might as well buy the car, but I don’t want to buy the car, i want to lease it for 3 years and then get an american car.  (Quote)

    You can’t sign up through the site until May, if you already have presiously signed up for information, you will get a email this afternoon on instructions to reserve.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:51 am)

    StevenU: Where is “GM’s official site”?I do not recall hearing about any official list being generated.  

    GM’s “official site” is chevroletVotlage.com. You can sign up there to be a poster on that site, similar to the “forum” here. They may be counting that roster. I don’t know of another sign-up there.

    There is another GM site, chevrolet.com/volt, that is useless.

    I know, Tag, sites that shall remain unnamed. Deal with it. :-)


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    BDP

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:57 am)

    Only pure bev worth buying right now is a yamaha golf cart.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:06 am)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): In this case, I believe the announced 20-mile AER version of the Volt represents the very thing you are suggesting. A half-size battery is probably the minimum reasonable to expect good CS-mode performance at the current state of the Li/Ion art.

    I’ve been saying all along, a 20 mile aer voltec configuration makes all current hybrids obsolete.

    The 40 mile configuration is also good.

    But there are lots of people that drive 60 or more miles every day. A 60 miles configuration where batteries are a little lighter would be great as well.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:07 am)

    As an after thought, people who start their posts with –

    Randy C.: The results of your poll are kind of skewed.

    always get negative votes. That’s life.


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:12 am)

    I am on the list but i’m too dang broke to put anything down now. Can’t even buy one now because of broke azz Kahl-ee-forneeeya.

    I am just hoping to be able to test drive one at the least. :o P


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:13 am)

    Michael: GM’s “official site” is chevroletVotlage.com. You can sign up there to be a poster on that site, similar to the “forum” here. They may be counting that roster. I don’t know of another sign-up there.There is another GM site, chevrolet.com/volt, that is useless.I know, Tag, sites that shall remain unnamed. Deal with it.   (Quote)

    Thanks… I am a member over there as well, but again do not remember any signup to buy a Volt. I do not check it out very often as there is so much info here and I do have to stay employed so I can buy mine… currently building a garage for it :)


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:13 am)

    Rashiid Amul: I just slammed ya with a -1, but just for fun.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    u funny guy u.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:14 am)

    BLDude: Nissan wins the day today in the p.r. battle between the Leaf vs. the Volt. I really like how Nissan is conducting the sign up program for the Leaf. A potential buyer can actually do something today that is meaningful in their life. The rest of us who want a Volt can only speculate and twiddle our thumbs. I am on the Leaf list but I will not be putting a deposit down today. I will regularly need more than 100 miles daily when driving around for my business. The same is true for my wife’s driving needs – sometimes she needs more than 100 miles daily while driving around the state of Iowa on business. If I could however I would be putting down my $99.  (Quote)

    yes, and Aptera also took deposits…see the thread a couple days back, and those people are certainly enjoying theirs.

    Now Nissan is NOT Aptera, but because you can put money on it does not mean anythig to me.

    While there will certainly be market share that 100 mile range will work nicely, I am not in it. a BEV will only be appealing to me in a 300 mile no compromise fast charge (or battery swap) 5 mins or less, no fuss no muss. I do not mind overnight charge, but anytime I need to top er up to go anywhere it has to fit my lifestyle I currently enjoy in an ICE car.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:15 am)

    tom w:
    I’ve been saying all along, a 20 mile aer voltec configuration makes all current hybrids obsolete.The 40 mile configuration is also good.But there are lots of people that drive 60 or more miles every day.A 60 miles configuration where batteries are a little lighter would be great as well.  

    I agree absolutely.

    Unfortunately, GM is going to take some convincing on a 60-mile range. I wouldn’t look for it within 5 years. :-(

    Of course, if they come up with a dedicated buffering device for CS-mode (see my #66) it could allow the engine to be much smaller, closer to an EREV’s average energy requirement. This alone would make Voltec vehicles lighter and more efficient. The buffering device + 2 cyl genset + 40 AER battery + 20 AER battery = EREV60.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:19 am)

    carcus1: As I don’t live in one of the initial Leaf rollout states, I’m going to wait and see what Ford has to offer in the electric Focus. I like the styling of the Focus and I’m expecting good things from the sync system they develop for this car.

    I love the look of the Focus EV (compared to the Leaf) as well – beautiful. It’d be great if Ford made a bunch of them. Here is a great article that talks about how Magna international (Canadian Auto parts supplier) came up with the vehicle (they chose a Focus because it fit their design parameters) and presented it to Ford as an “instant EV” for vehicle small car designs. They didn’t have Ford in mind when they created it initially and planned to present this “instant EV” vehicle to other big manufacturers (don’t know if they have or if Ford got a commitment to be their only customer for it). It was smart of Ford to jump on this since they didn’t have a passenger EV coming. Ford said they might bring production in house if demand is there…

    http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/20/autos/ford_electric/index.htm

    Hopefully they did some serious engineering with Magna and didn’t just fill the trunk with batteries, as its a beautiful car on the outside.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:20 am)

    My $0.02 USD? Good on Nissan for aggressively launching the Leaf. A rising tide lifts all ships.

    However, as of last week, I am currently “between gigs,” as they say. After eight years as a “full-time” employee, there is an excellent chance that I’ll be going back to IT consulting, which I did for the ten years prior to that. The thing is, consulting often involves traveling unpredictable commute distances — sometimes three hours a day on the road. And I’m in a state with cold, nasty winters (read that as: “battery-draining”).

    No way can I get by with 100 or fewer miles of “real world” AER. I need 250+ to even be on the safe side.

    <200 mi AER? That's a city car, by my measure, unless you're unusually friendly with the AAA brigade.


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    250 volts

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:20 am)

    Dave G: How much power does it take to charge a 300 mile BEV in 10 minutes? Do the math. That much power can vaporize things. It’s not a spark, it’s an explosion. Now imagine plugging that into a car with snow dripping all over it. There’s no technology that can make this safe. It’s inherently dangerous. You won’t catch me within 100 feet of this.The dream of pure BEVs everywhere, I see it more as a nightmare. EREVs are the way to go.  (Quote)

    Reprocessed answer – Can be done with battery to battery charging, or capacitor to battery charging. The risk can certainly be minimized. Instead of throwing up road blocks as to why BEV’s can’t suceed we need to focus on the pluses of growing this technology


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:20 am)

    StevenU:
    Thanks… I am a member over there as well, but again do not remember any signup to buy a Volt.I do not check it out very often as there is so much info here and I do have to stay employed so I can buy mine… currently building a garage for it   

    As I said, I think they are just counting people who joined the blog. They may also add twitter and facebook “friends.” Lyle said there was some overlap. Looks like you are one.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:27 am)

    Yes, I’m reserving one. The deposit is refundable and by the time they are available here in New Jersey I’ll know what the “real world” range is because there will be thousands of them on the roads in the initial markets.

    Plus, I have no freaking idea when I’ll be able to buy a Volt here! Maybe by the summer of 2011? Maybe? The low production numbers of the Volt are going to force people to jump ship if Nissan starts building them by the tens of thousands like the claim they are.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:29 am)

    Although I answered that I am not on the Nissan Leaf list, I am intrigued by the vehicle. It would make a good addition to most households where it could be used for neighborhood trips along with daily commutes. If the price differential is such that it makes more sense than the Volt, I would give it some further consideration. At this time too much is still in doubt about either the Volt or the Leaf to make a final determination for purchase. I will continue to evaluate each vehicle released that meets my criteria until I find the one that “fits the bill”. Right now that vehicle is the Chevrolet Volt. I expect it will continue to be unless GM jacks the price up too much or does something just as stupid – such as limiting supply to build demand to support a “jacked-up price”. Surely even GM would not be that stupid in today’s environment. But who really knows. IMO.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:36 am)

    Dave G:
    How much power does it take to charge a 300 mile BEV in 10 minutes?Do the math.That much power can vaporize things.It’s not a spark, it’s an explosion.Now imagine plugging that into a car with snow dripping all over it.There’s no technology that can make this safe.It’s inherently dangerous.You won’t catch me within 100 feet of this.The dream of pure BEVs everywhere, I see it more as a nightmare.EREVs are the way to go.  

    This kind of objection is overblown. Compare it to user-refilling a metal tank with a liquid explosive under circumstances in which vapors can be ignited by a spark of static electricity.

    And who says that 300 miles’ range in electricity must be done in under 10 minutes? Stop, turn in your car to the charging center, go in the C-Store, hit the can, buy a diet Coke and chill.

    Even if you do charge in 10 minutes, who says it has to be out in the open, next to a “pump” that you handle yourself? What if the car were fed into an enclosed tunnel with a car-wash-style chain and automatic connections? There are many, many unexplored possibilities for handling the physics of a fast charge.

    The unassailable roadblock is not anything physical; it’s the business case. How many EVs will there need to be on the road before someone starts to smell money? How many BEVs will be sold until this capability is provided? Don’t hold your breath (and don’t borrow unnecessary trouble. Fast charging is years away).

    EREV is the way to go … for the next several decades. That’s good enough for our purposes.


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:36 am)

    Michael: GM’s “official site” is chevroletVotlage.com. You can sign up there to be a poster on that site, similar to the “forum” here. They may be counting that roster. I don’t know of another sign-up there.

    That site sucks and it’s dead. Little to no conversing. Just stay here and ask your questions. Folks here will reply quicker than that “Other” site.

    That dead site needs another defibrillator hit……….CLEAR!!!


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:37 am)

    Randy C.: The results of your poll are kind of skewed. Most of the people reading this site are fans of the Volt or they wouldn’t be here. Every time I make a negative Volt comment on this site I get slammed. I don’t believe any vehicle that burns fuel is a solution to the US’s transportation, pollution or now economic problems. We are shipping ever larger amounts of money to foreign countries just to buy something that we’ll burn up and pollute our environment. Any businessman will tell you that you can’t do this very long an stay viable. Every economic downturn in the last 50 years was preceded by a spike in oil prices. The higher the spike the more severe the downturn.Granted the Volt is better than the Prius, when you consider the stock Prius goes nowhere without gas. But the Volt still has a fuel burning engine. GM has done better, having produced a full electric car that got an EPA certified 144 miles on a charge using “inferior” NiMH batteries in 1999.  (Quote)

    The chink in your argument is that the Volt does not need to burn gasoline. It can be configured to burn pretty much any biofuel, such as ethanol, methanol, butanol, pentanol, or bio-diesel, or even hydrogen (either by ICE or fuel cell), just by modifying or swapping out the range extender.

    Until (or even if) charging infrastructure catches up to the point where we can safely charge within 10-15 mins (which is a signifigant challenge) then liquid fuels of some sort will dominate. The beauty of the Volt platform is that it can adjust to any of these realities, as well as very easily go all electric with increased range should the above become reality.

    As a niche vehicle, BEVs are a great part of the market, and are pushing boundaries. That’s great for the tech, and getting the word out. I’m glad Nissan, Mitsu, and others are pushing BEVs. However, for the mass market, at this point, the Volt is still the most elegant and versatile option. I just hope GM decides to ramp up production to the point where the Volt will actually make a difference.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:51 am)

    I don’t want a 100 mile range BEV since I actually drive more than 100 miles a day about two days a month. And I have range anxiety. I really want to buy American. And I can’t do a waiting list. (When I move, I’m going to have to buy a car right away.)

    So. No. I’m not reserving a LEAF.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:52 am)

    Mike-o-Matic: My $0.02 USD?Good on Nissan for aggressively launching the Leaf.A rising tide lifts all ships.However, as of last week, I am currently “between gigs,” as they say.After eight years as a “full-time” employee, there is an excellent chance that I’ll be going back to IT consulting, which I did for the ten years prior to that.The thing is, consulting often involves traveling unpredictable commute distances — sometimes three hours a day on the road.And I’m in a state with cold, nasty winters (read that as: “battery-draining”).No way can I get by with 100 or fewer miles of “real world” AER.I need 250+ to even be on the safe side.<200 mi AER?That’s a city car, by my measure, unless you’re unusually friendly with the AAA brigade.  

    I used to IT consult also. This full time job I have had for 8 years will expire. The writing is on the wall. But I am extremely sick and tired of IT. I would be very interested in Renewable Energy training.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:53 am)

    CorvetteGuy: When the date was announced on taking 2010 Camaro Orders came out, we had a special website up to take deposit info. It worked great and we had inquiries/deposits from all over the U.S. and a couple from Europe.

    Then GM had their troubles and deliveries were delayed (for us) by 6 months. So, even though we have a website ready to go for VOLT, I have been instructed NOT to take deposits yet. I sure wish I could, I think it would help if all dealers did. That would give GM a better measurement on real demand.

    I also wish that GM could start a waiting list. But I remember the bad publicity over the Camaro. And I can see why GM would be hesitant. If anything, the waiting list issues will be a lot worse with the Volt since they don’t even have the capacity to meet the initial demand. Even if everything runs smoothly.

    It would be the best way of estimating demand though…


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:54 am)

    Tom M: Yes, I’m reserving one. The deposit is refundable and by the time they are available here in New Jersey I’ll know what the “real world” range is because there will be thousands of them on the roads in the initial markets.

    Hey Jersey,

    Every driver is different so “real world” is pure bs talk in the land of EV. The actual mileage will be 100 MILES PER CHARGE. However many hypermilers will get far more. Just like the Tesla Roadster manufacturer mileage is 225 but many people have gotten 300 mile range.
    You should have absolutely no problem getting more than 100 miles in your new sexy LEAF if you drive accordingly.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:55 am)

    Rashiid Amul:
    I used to IT consult also.This full time job I have had for 8 years will expire.The writing is on the wall.But I am extremely sick and tired of IT.I would be very interested in Renewable Energy training.  

    If only there were a remunerative career to be had (outside of a major auto manufacturer) involving vehicle electrification …


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:56 am)

    tom w:
    I’ve been saying all along, a 20 mile aer voltec configuration makes all current hybrids obsolete.The 40 mile configuration is also good.But there are lots of people that drive 60 or more miles every day.A 60 miles configuration where batteries are a little lighter would be great as well.  

    Right on the money, Tom W. I would love a longer EV range, but I will have to wait.
    I think GM is more interested in making shorter range vehicles for now. I don’t see that ever working for me unless we are talking about a Pickup truck.


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    Mike-o-Matic

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:56 am)

    Rashiid Amul: I used to IT consult also. This full time job I have had for 8 years will expire. The writing is on the wall. But I am extremely sick and tired of IT. I would be very interested in Renewable Energy training.

    My thoughts exactly. It does chew people up and spit ‘em out, doesn’t it?


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    Mary Jane Bong

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:58 am)

    I believe the LEAF will be HUGE. It should have much higher production numbers than the Volt and of course 40 Miles versus 100 Miles…its a no-brainer for sure.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:59 am)

    Hashish Jihadi:
    Hey Jersey,Every driver is different so “real world” is pure bs talk in the land of EV. The actual mileage will be 100 MILES PER CHARGE. However many hypermilers will get far more. Just like the Tesla Roadster manufacturer mileage is 225 but many people have gotten 300 mile range.
    You should have absolutely no problem getting more than 100 miles in your new sexy LEAF if you drive accordingly.  

    And conversely, much less than 100 miles if you drive like a maniac.
    But I am really betting the average driver won’t achieve 100 miles. Maybe 75-80.

    My 2¢


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    Mike-o-Matic

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:00 pm)

    Mary Jane Bong: its a no-brainer for sure.

    No, it isn’t. Not if your commute is a 110 mile round trip.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:01 pm)

    Mike-o-Matic:
    My thoughts exactly.It does chew people up and spit ‘em out, doesn’t it?  

    For sure. I just can’t stress enough how done I am.


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    nuclearboy

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:01 pm)

    kgurnsey: Randy C.: The results of your poll are kind of skewed. Most of the people reading this site are fans of the Volt or they wouldn’t be here. Every time I make a negative Volt comment on this site I get slammed. I don’t believe any vehicle that burns fuel is a solution to the US’s transportation, pollution or now economic problems. We are shipping ever larger amounts of money to foreign countries just to buy something that we’ll burn up and pollute our environment. Any businessman will tell you that you can’t do this very long an stay viable. Every economic downturn in the last 50 years was preceded by a spike in oil prices. The higher the spike the more severe the downturn.Granted the Volt is better than the Prius, when you consider the stock Prius goes nowhere without gas. But the Volt still has a fuel burning engine. GM has done better, having produced a full electric car that got an EPA certified 144 miles on a charge using “inferior” NiMH batteries in 1999.

    (Quote) The chink in your argument is that the Volt does not need to burn gasoline.

    I would say the chink in his argument is that Gasoline is still king for a while. From aan energy density perspective, batteries are an order of magnitude or more off from Gas.
    Since people in the real world actually need to rely on their cars to get places and there simply is no charging infrastructure for 99.9% of us and there will not be one anytime soon, BEV’s are not ready for prime time.

    Most people I talk to are not car or eco fanatics and they simply will not put up with the limitations of BEV’s.

    I am glad some of you will and God Bless you but lets not get holier than though on the gasoline issue while batteries still suck wind in the energy density department.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:02 pm)

    Mary Jane Bong: I believe the LEAF will be HUGE. It should have much higher production numbers than the Volt and of course 40 Miles versus 100 Miles…its a no-brainer for sure.  

    Are you sure you understand that the Volt is an EREV and not an BEV?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:05 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): buy a diet Coke and chill.

    Reminds me of Eddie Murphy’s stand up….
    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=4834278

    Go to 4:44 in the video…….lol


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    CorvetteGuy

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:05 pm)

    Tagamet: When you say “I have been instructed not to take deposits yet”, is that a dealership policy or one from GM directly?

    Not from GM… just from the owner at my dealership. I’ve been grinding on him… He says there is still no word on how many will be allocated to us. He doesn’t know for sure if we will be one of the initial dealerships in November… I still think the bulk of those cars will go to Sacramento Area and Hollyweird and San Diego… All of the tens of thousands who regularly commute to Los Angeles or Orange County will have to wait.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:05 pm)

    Waste of money. Not enough range.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:09 pm)

    No Leaf for me. I have been following this site for a long time. I have been a proponent of the BEV in the past, but I will tell you that I am wondering if the BEV would be enough for my situation.

    I rarely drive more then 80 miles a day, BUT, when I want to, I want to. This does concern me, and while I LOVE the simplicity of the BEV, the range limitation is a definite consideration.

    I also am not planning on having a Volt in my driveway any time soon. The cost is just above what I can afford. I also have concern about the long term value of a Volt, and while some will argue that the battery cost will be much less in 10 years, I am just not sold. Needing to support both electrical and ICE propulsion systems just seems a waste. Which is why the BEV would seem to be the long term winner.

    Ok, so basically I am in a holding pattern, waiting for more information on how BEV’s and EREV’s fair in the coming years. Hopefully, I live long enough to finally make my decision.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:09 pm)

    carcus1: “It appears that the biggest game changer will be electric vehicles,” Ford said during a speech in Detroit.
    – Bill Ford Jr., April 2010

    Ford: Plan includes 5 new high-mileage vehicles
    http://www.freep.com/article/20100415/BUSINESS01/100415077/1014/business01?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    I wish Ford would be more specific about their electric car plans. I’m sure there are a lot of people who’d rather buy a Ford than a Nissan. Especially ones that are still built in Japan.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:14 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson):
    This kind of objection is overblown.Compare it to user-refilling a metal tank with a liquid explosive under circumstances in which vapors can be ignited by a spark of static electricity.And who says that 300 miles’ range in electricity must be done in under 10 minutes?Stop, turn in your car to the charging center, go in the C-Store, hit the can, buy a diet Coke and chill.Even if you do charge in 10 minutes, who says it has to be out in the open, next to a “pump” that you handle yourself?What if the car were fed into an enclosed tunnel with a car-wash-style chain and automatic connections?There are many, many unexplored possibilities for handling the physics of a fast charge.The unassailable roadblock is not anything physical; it’s the business case.How many EVs will there need to be on the road before someone starts to smell money?How many BEVs will be sold until this capability is provided?Don’t hold your breath (and don’t borrow unnecessary trouble.Fast charging is years away).EREV is the way to go … for the next several decades.That’s good enough for our purposes.  

    You echo my sentiments exactly!

    Fear of doing things differently has always been the largest impediment to progress and change. I am sure the cavemen were all a twitter, when they first made fire. They probably all discussed how dangerous this fire is and how they never needed fire in the past.


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    Clint

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:14 pm)

    (click to show comment)


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:16 pm)

    Hashish Jihadi: Every driver is different so “real world” is pure bs talk in the land of EV. The actual mileage will be 100 MILES PER CHARGE. However many hypermilers will get far more. Just like the Tesla Roadster manufacturer mileage is 225 but many people have gotten 300 mile range.
    You should have absolutely no problem getting more than 100 miles in your new sexy LEAF if you drive accordingly.

    I dunno bro. Hypermillers drive a little slower than the rest of the traffic. I really don’t want to keep getting the “Your #1″ hand sign on the roads. but that’s just me.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    Clint: Yes, and it will blow the doors clean off the Volt after 40. KAPOW.

    Huh? WTF ya smokin there hommie? Ya need to puff puff and GIVE so I can see the same sh|t.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:18 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): Of course, if they come up with a dedicated buffering device for CS-mode (see my #66) it could allow the engine to be much smaller, closer to an EREV’s average energy requirement. This alone would make Voltec vehicles lighter and more efficient. The buffering device + 2 cyl genset + 40 AER battery + 20 AER battery = EREV60.  

    But you know what drives the size of the genset on an EREV.. the top speed on level ground and speed it can hold on a grade with a full load. You set those parameters and that decides how big the genset needs to be.

    A small wankel at high rpms will be hard to beat for weight… but it will cost GM $1 billion to set up the plant to make it.

    Smaller, lighter batteries are a more likely possibility.. perhaps you could save 200lbs on the 20AER Volt. The lighter weight should allow a less powerful motor with lower demands on the battery.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:19 pm)

    JEC: I rarely drive more then 80 miles a day, BUT, when I want to, I want to. This does concern me, and while I LOVE the simplicity of the BEV, the range limitation is a definite consideration.

    supposedly in 5 years the 26 minute to do an 80% charge stations will be all over the place?

    But certainly for first 5-10 years BEVs are for 2 car families with a garage. So that limits the market potential for BEV’s to 25% of car sold until the ranges is up to 200 miles and charging stations are not more than 5 miles a part. Then BEVs could be 95% of market.


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    Keith

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:20 pm)

    This is the way the Chinese do it , They don’t believe in fooling around .

    Henan’s first EV charging station begins construction
    From:People’s DailyApril 20, 2010

    Henan’s first charging station for electric vehicles recently began construction in Zhengzhou. This is the largest electric vehicle charging station under construction in China.

    The station will adopt a collective charging mode. It will be equipped with 14 120-kW charging machines which can charge 20 electric public buses simultaneously, and it will also be equipped with 10 charging poles for private electric vehicles.

    The Xinxiang Electric Vehicle Charging (Battery Replacing) Station, which began construction at the same time as the charging station in Zhengzhou, will have four functions including electric vehicle charging, general services, battery replacement and a multi-floor garage. When completed, it will be able to charge 20 electric vehicles and replace batteries for 200 electric taxis simultaneously, and its garage will also be able to accommodate 400 charging vehicles.

    Henan province will build 1,160 electric vehicle charging stations and over 850,000 charging poles before 2020. They will also guarantee stable and reliable operations. After 2020, all electric vehicle drivers traveling in Henan will no longer need to worry about their journey.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:22 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow: I dunno bro. Hypermillers drive a little slower than the rest of the traffic. I really don’t want to keep getting the “Your #1″ hand sign on the roads. but that’s just me.  

    They are giving you that sign in support of your battle against arabian oil :)

    There is no hypermiling an electric vehicle, the only thing that will work is slowing down, and avoid using the friction brakes.. that or drafting a semi truck.


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    carcus1

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:22 pm)

    LauraM: I wish Ford would be more specific about their electric car plans.

    Ford’s kind of like Toyota in this regard. They tell you their general plan, but it’s just about impossible to get any technical/pricing detail on anything until the planned leaks start happening a few weeks before official introduction.

    Just from the way Ford talks about electrification in general, I’m hopeful they’re thinking about relatively large production volume on their plug ins. Frank Stronach (Magna International) seems to be a “true believer” as well.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:23 pm)

    carcus1: As I don’t live in one of the initial Leaf rollout states, I’m going to wait and see what Ford has to offer in the electric Focus. I like the styling of the Focus and I’m expecting good things from the sync system they develop for this car.

    They’ve been pretty quiet with their BEV lately. Do you recall their expected roll out date?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:23 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    That site sucks and it’s dead. Little to no conversing. Just stay here and ask your questions. Folks here will reply quicker than that “Other” site.That dead site needs another defibrillator hit……….CLEAR!!!  

    I know that. I was just answering his question, “what is the official site?” I never go there for the latest information. I never post there. I do check it out occasionally so I can answer people like StevenU.

    chevrolet.com/volt is the “dead site.”

    And don’t forget, there is one more “official site” for media:
    http://archives.media.gm.com/volt/index.html


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:29 pm)

    Keith: The station will adopt a collective charging mode. It will be equipped with 14 120-kW charging machines which can charge 20 electric public buses simultaneously, and it will also be equipped with 10 charging poles for private electric vehicles.

    They should do the same thing here but build the charging stuff at a shopping mall shaded by Solar panels that feed the charge stations. Have “Valet Charging” spend some $$$ then come back to a full charge.

    /personally I hate going to malls though.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:31 pm)

    Michael: I know that. I was just answering his question

    OOppss…
    I thought I selected his comments in your comments but it looks like I got your comment so I commented on what I thought was his comment but it was your comment.

    /my bad.


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    Niapa

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:33 pm)

    Dave G: I will never buy a pure BEV.  

    Never say never, If I am going to buy a second car, LEAF definitely is my choice. of course VOLT is a much better design for now.


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    Michael

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:34 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: Not from GM… just from the owner at my dealership. I’ve been grinding on him… He says there is still no word on how many will be allocated to us. He doesn’t know for sure if we will be one of the initial dealerships in November…

    Thanks CorvetteGuy, that’s what I thought you were saying. The difference at my dealer is that we both understand that I just want the first one there and neither of us has any preconceived idea of when the first one will come to New Mexico. Rather than November 2010, we might be looking at May 2011, but that is just a *wild* guess.

    My deposit says they will order me one as soon as GM opens the order window, not when they will come. Awhile back we were told orders would be allowed in September 2010. A guy at my dealership confirmed that “GM 2011 Model Year passenger vehicle startup schedule” we discussed in February. That is also subject to change. I will keep you posted.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:35 pm)

    JEC:.Ok, so basically I am in a holding pattern, waiting for more information on how BEV’s and EREV’s fair in the coming years.Hopefully, I live long enough to finally make my decision.  

    You may run out of gas if you stay in that holding pattern for too long. It is my understanding that you can lease a Leaf for very very cheap monthly payments. There is always something better just around the corner but you cannot keep waiting and waiting. I would invite you to register for you new nissan leaf today for an unbelievable price of $99. No need to thank me.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:48 pm)

    Bank: JEC

    Thanks for the advice, but I NEVER lease.

    I keep my vehicles for a minimum of 10 years and have no desire to pay money for something, then at the end of the “lease” they take it away.

    I will be buying something in the next year or so, but BEV’s, EREV’s, and hybrids are still not a sell for me at this time, but they are getting closer.

    Is it to early to take a wait-and-see attitude?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:50 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    They’ve been pretty quiet with their BEV lately. Do you recall their expected roll out date?  

    2012 is the only thing I’ve heard. The same year that the rest of the U.S. can purchase a Leaf.

    According to sources (which I can’t link) Nissan is almost done with development of the next gen (200 mi., same size–double capacity) battery which will go into production in 2015. BEV’s are going to be like computers . . whatever you buy will probably be out of date by the time you get it home.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:54 pm)

    Meanwhile other news: company offers “Voltec” style retrofit in large quantities for trucks, vans and other commercial vehicles:

    http://www.greenchipstocks.com/articles/electric-car-conversions/778

    “CALCARS TECH LEAD RON GREMBAN’S COMMENTS:

    The conversion process consists of replacing most of a vehicle’s whole drivetrain with its modular series hybrid system (like that in the Chevy Volt “extended range electric vehicle”). It can be sized for vehicles from pickup truck size on up through medium-sized trucks, vans, and light buses.

    Components/processes:

    ENGINE: up to 5.4L gas or Diesel is replaced with a 2.0L or 3.3L gas engine driving one or two 82 kW permanent magnet (PM) generators.

    AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION: kept but re-tuned, with the torque converter removed to enable 90+% efficiency); the motor/generators connect to wheels through the transmission.

    ACCESSORIES: retained but electrically driven.

    MOTOR/GENERATORS: 2-3 82 kW PM, the same ones used for the engine-generator set.

    BATTERY: 15-70 kWh Li-ion battery pack, depending on vehicle size, for up to 52 miles of pure electric (EV) driving per charge.

    OPERATION: Vehicle is driven as an EV until the battery is depleted, then the engine is started to keep the battery from further discharge. The engine is not mechanically connected to the wheels.

    PROJECTED FUEL ECONOMY: As a hybrid — after a 40-50 mile all-electric range — mileage expected to improve by 55-130% over the original vehicle (25-32 MPG vs. 14-16 MPG for an unconverted Ford F-150).

    ATTENTION TO DETAIL, including a liquid battery cooling system, and additional weight of as little as 200 lb.

    CONVERSION COSTS of as little as $21k per vehicle.”


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    DonC

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

    Starcast: I am little surprised anyone is. We know little about this car no real world test and not many people have even seen one. It is made in JAPAN.

    You will get a test drive before you decide to buy. So that’s not a major issue. As for being made in Japan, that’s probably an advantage. If you looked at the gas pedals involved in the Toyota recalls, you may have noticed that the pedals used in the Japanese domestic market were very nicely sealed. The ones for NA were inferior in that they weren’t sealed at all, a design which allows debris to get on the shaft and compromise the spring. (The fix was lame BTW — they just stuck a shim to increase the spring tension).

    You see stuff like that all the time when you compare things made for both markets. Basically we like things cheap and aren’t willing to pay extra for the quality that the Japanese want.


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    Noel Park

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:56 pm)

    Hashish Jihadi: Hey Jersey

    #101

    This kind of makes me wonder where our other Jihadi went who we had way back in the beginning. “Anti-Oil Jihadi”, or something like that? I sort of miss him, actually. I wonder if he changed his “screen name”, LOL?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (12:57 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    They should do the same thing here but build the charging stuff at a shopping mall shaded by Solar panels that feed the charge stations. Have “Valet Charging” spend some $$$ then come back to a full charge.
    /personally I hate going to malls though.  

    It’s not so bad. Just ditch the fam. at the food court and skurry over to Stripperpoles-R-Us for a little break.


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    Jim in PA

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:02 pm)

    kgurnsey: The chink in your argument is that the Volt does not need to burn gasoline. It can be configured to burn pretty much any biofuel, such as ethanol, methanol, butanol, pentanol, or bio-diesel, or even hydrogen (either by ICE or fuel cell), just by modifying or swapping out the range extender.

    Yup. This is part of the brilliance of the design. Slap a diesel in it and call it an Ampera for European sales. Slap an ethanol-capable engine in it and sell it in Brazil where sugar cane ethanol is used as a biofuel, slap a hydrogen fuel cell range extender into it and sell it in Utopia, etc.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:03 pm)

    Keith: and over 850,000 charging poles before 2020.

    Speaking of poles . …… whaaaat? 850 THOUSAND??


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:06 pm)

    carcus1: It’s not so bad. Just ditch the fam. at the food court and skurry over to Stripperpoles-R-Us for a little break.

    Funny you mention that. The big mall here has a H( , y , )TERS across the street!!!

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!


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    CaptJackSparrow

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:07 pm)

    carcus1: Speaking of poles . …… whaaaat? 850 THOUSAND??

    Damn!
    That’s alot of strippers there!!!

    oh, charging poles……
    SAME THING!!!!


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    Noel Park

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:08 pm)

    DonC: If you looked at the gas pedals involved in the Toyota recalls, you may have noticed that the pedals used in the Japanese domestic market were very nicely sealed. The ones for NA were inferior in that they weren’t sealed at all, a design which allows debris to get on the shaft and compromise the spring.

    #135

    I recently read that one of the reasons NHTSA/DOT came down so hard on Toyota was that they had recalled numerous cars in Europe for the same problem last year, but never reported the problem as required here. I wonder where the pedal assemblies for those European cars were made?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:11 pm)

    Jim in PA: slap a hydrogen fuel cell range extender into it and sell it in Utopia, etc.

    #138

    Never-Never Land comes to mind, LOL. Or Fantasyland. +1


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:14 pm)

    Gsned57: I’ve gotta say that Nissan is doeing everything right with the release of this car and GM should take note. Affordable price for the new tech, having a want list that will actually be used (gives a 2 week advantage to the rest of the world), and a small depsit before you get to drive the car ($99 is a lot cheaper than what it cost me to go to NYC for the weekend for a Volt test drive). Lastly they have very huge plans for rolling out a lot of these cars. I really can’t find fault in the way they are rolling this car out and I’d hope GM does exactly the same thing.

    Alas, I can only agree with you. +1 Brilliant marketing, IMHO. Hello GM????


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:16 pm)

    carcus1:
    Speaking of poles . …… whaaaat?850 THOUSAND??  

    That’s nothing. There are far more in Poland already …


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:21 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): That’s nothing. There are far more in Poland already …

    AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
    ROTFLMAO….

    /can’t breathe now…..gut hurts……


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:22 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    Damn!
    That’s alot of strippers there!!!oh, charging poles……
    SAME THING!!!!  

    Like moths to a flame…..
    https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&file=images&ItemID=1216378

    /non conductive footware recommended . … no problem, strippers almost always wear plastic shoes anyway


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    CorvetteGuy

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:26 pm)

    Jim in PA: Would it? Why would it cost too much

    The current Cobalt does 37MPG starting at about $15,000 and the Cruze that will replace it is supposed to do 40 MPG starting at about $17,000

    Based on the market they are shooting for, it would not make much sense to offer them a ICE Gen Car (where the engine runs all the time – from your original question) just to power electric motors for the wheels if it still does the same 40MPG and then charge a minimum of $25,000

    When they come out with a BEV Cruze/Orlando with 100+ AER to compete against LEAF, now you’re talking about something I and plenty of others would go for.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:31 pm)

    Noel Park: I wonder where the pedal assemblies for those European cars were made?  

    I don’t think it mattered where it was made so much as the design of the pedal. Toyota consciously went cheap in NA. I suspect they did the same thing in Europe.

    I saw the two assemblies on YouTube. The pedal for the Japanese unit was nicely designed and well made. The pedal for NA was a piece of junk — it was essentially a flat piece attached to a shaft with a spring on it. “Basic” might be the nicest thing you could say about it. AFAIK there have been no problems with the pedal in Japan, so the fact that there were problems in Europe suggests that a similar cheap part was used there as well as in NA.

    I think what happened is that debris — road grit, salt, etc. — ended up on the shaft which compromised the spring, resulting in a “sticky pedal”. Obviously that’s what Toyota concluded given their fix, which was just to use a shim to shorten the spring. Seems like this was one of those cases where saving a few pennies on a part ended up costing the manufacturer big time. FWIW the lousy pedal wouldn’t have resulted in unintended acceleration. For that you’d have to look elsewhere. (We differ on this since I think those cases are “misapplied pedal” issues.)


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:36 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    They’ve been pretty quiet with their BEV lately. Do you recall their expected roll out date?  

    I found an article (bout a year ago) that has it for sale in 2011 (don’t know if that is at the beginning or the end of 2011 though).

    It also commented that Ford expected initial production numbers of 5,000 to 10,000 Electric Focus’s a year “for a few years”. Unless they radically change their production targets, its just a PR campaign.

    Very sad – I loved the looks of it on Leno.

    Here’s the article:

    http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10237614-48.html

    Hopefully they’ll drastically enlarge their production targets and be able to get battery production capacity from somewhere, but I wouldn’t be betting on that. :-(


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:44 pm)

    Sasparilla: I found an article (bout a year ago) that has it for sale in 2011 (don’t know if that is at the beginning or the end of 2011 though).

    I also read some time back that the batt pack price is really friggin high. More than half the cost of the car.
    Can’t recall the site though.


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:45 pm)

    DonC:
    You will get a test drive before you decide to buy. So that’s not a major issue. As for being made in Japan, that’s probably an advantage. If you looked at the gas pedals involved in the Toyota recalls, you may have noticed that the pedals used in the Japanese domestic market were very nicely sealed. The ones for NA were inferior in that they weren’t sealed at all, a design which allows debris to get on the shaft and compromise the spring. (The fix was lame BTW — they just stuck a shim to increase the spring tension).
    You see stuff like that all the time when you compare things made for both markets. Basically we like things cheap and aren’t willing to pay extra for the quality that the Japanese want.  

    I think that’s a really fair statement, DonC, that many are absolute “price-customers” as opposed to “product” customers (often not as a matter of choice though, but necessity).
    Needing transportation that is safe is the real factor that is above a cost-saving design intent for such a critical component to be made to the inferior way you mentioned.
    I think that there are something like 8 million 600 thousand recalled vehicles. Don’t you think that this is an unmanageable number for a timely campaign if you crunch the numbers of how many service facilities can deal with it all?
    Hopefully, it will not get worse still.

    In their latest TV ad, there is a phrase that says;

    …..”don’t get us wrong”.

    Hopefully, they can make it all right.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:45 pm)

    JEC: I rarely drive more then 80 miles a day, BUT, when I want to, I want to. This does concern me, and while I LOVE the simplicity of the BEV, the range limitation is a definite consideration.

    Given your preferences for the simplicity of a BEV, which has its appeal, if I were you I’d plunk down my $99. You aren’t in one of the roll out markets, so the earliest you’d see a car would be in the second half of 2011. More likely after that. By then you’ll have some real world information about actual ranges and can decide if you want to wait longer, perhaps for the more powerful second generation battery which has been rumored.

    It’s just an option while you see what happens with the Volt and other alternatives you might be interested in.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:48 pm)

    Sasparilla:
    I found an article (bout a year ago) that has it for sale in 2011 (don’t know if that is at the beginning or the end of 2011 though).It also commented that Ford expected initial production numbers of 5,000 to 10,000 Electric Focus’s a year “for a few years”.Unless they radically change their production targets, its just a PR campaign.Very sad – I loved the looks of it on Leno.Here’s the article:http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10237614-48.htmlHopefully they’ll drastically enlarge their production targets and be able to get battery production capacity from somewhere, but I wouldn’t be betting on that.   

    Frankly, I can’t imagine any auto manufacturer staying with only ICE vehicles now.
    I would think they all will be expanding their production. Is there any company who hasn’t announced some kind of EV? I agree with you on Ford. I would like to see it also.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:54 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    I also read some time back that the batt pack price is really friggin high. More than half the cost of the car.
    Can’t recall the site though.  

    I guess that’s not too surprising based on what we’ve learned about these EV/EREV batteries. Of course if you only get enough for 5k of vehicles per year you’re probably not going to get much of a discount. ;-)


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (1:59 pm)

    Rashiid Amul:
    Frankly, I can’t imagine any auto manufacturer staying with only ICE vehicles now.
    I would think they all will be expanding their production.Is there any company who hasn’t announced some kind of EV?I agree with you on Ford.I would like to see it also.  

    I think you’re right Rashiid, although I have a feeling that most of them would have liked to do what Ford was planning on doing (5k to 10k vehicles for years and then think about more production when things were more profitable – if ever).


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    DaveP

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:05 pm)

    No leaf for me. The poor acceleration is unacceptable to me at any price. I have to make excuses to myself to accept the Volt in the mid 8 seconds range. I swore I’d never buy a car with a 0-60 longer than 8 seconds. My FX16 does that AND gets 30mpg in mostly city driving it like I’m stealing it :) I think I can accept the Volt’s stated performance since it has no clutch to burn out or no automatic shift program to get confused so I am expecting it to perform a little better in actual use than the maximum acceleration numbers that can be obtained when conditions are staged to obtain maximum acceleration. I expect it to be a practical equivalent of my FX16′s performance or maybe a little better in actual use, even if the maximum is not as quick.

    I don’t think it’s coincidence that half of my friends with 11 sec Priuses have been rear-ended around here. Those cars are just too slow to handle the 50 foot ramps to expressways where everyone is going 70mph in heavy traffic. Speed limits in California are really more of a guideline than a rule. ;) To handle the heavy traffic around Silicon Valley, they just turned a bunch of regular streets into “expressways” which means they raised the speed limits, built the occasional overpass but mostly tried to wedgie some access ramps onto them from the existing cross streets. It’s effective at moving more cars though, but you really want to have the right equipment for negotiating them daily!


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    Nelson

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:09 pm)

    Jim in PA: Nelson

    My point Exactly!

    NPNS!


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    Roy

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:09 pm)

    “Unlike many here, for me range is not much of an issue. The lease is also attractive. I couldn’t see paying $850/month for a year lease of the mini-E with its laptop battery pack, but $349/month for a three year lease for a Leaf seems reasonable.”

    It will be more than 349 if you lease like most with only first payment down. Add about $30 for tax and $30 for the extra equipt and $50 for the 1650 down payment(cap cost reduction)and you have $460. Than check the miles per year you need and see what they give with out extra cost. Also check if they charge a disposition fee (turn in fee). Many dealers will charge more than MSRP and that will push up the lease. Might still be Ok for you but not $349

    Roy


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    Mark Z

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:17 pm)

    Already made a 5K deposit for the Tesla Model S last year. I prefer the VOLT for range anxiety. Looking forward to test drives before committing to either one.


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    LauraM

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:18 pm)

    DonC: You will get a test drive before you decide to buy. So that’s not a major issue. As for being made in Japan, that’s probably an advantage. If you looked at the gas pedals involved in the Toyota recalls, you may have noticed that the pedals used in the Japanese domestic market were very nicely sealed. The ones for NA were inferior in that they weren’t sealed at all, a design which allows debris to get on the shaft and compromise the spring. (The fix was lame BTW — they just stuck a shim to increase the spring tension).

    You see stuff like that all the time when you compare things made for both markets. Basically we like things cheap and aren’t willing to pay extra for the quality that the Japanese want.

    That’s why they had to recall over 200,000 hybrid cars in Japan.

    It’s true that many Americans prefer to get things cheaper. But I think that’s more about us not knowing anything about what we’re buying other than the final price.


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    Noel Park

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:18 pm)

    CorvetteGuy: When they come out with a BEV Cruze/Orlando with 100+ AER to compete against LEAF, now you’re talking about something I and plenty of others would go for.

    #148

    Yeah man. That’s what I’m talkin’ about! +1


  163. 163
    statik

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:19 pm)

    Sasparilla: I found an article (bout a year ago) that has it for sale in 2011 (don’t know if that is at the beginning or the end of 2011 though).It also commented that Ford expected initial production numbers of 5,000 to 10,000 Electric Focus’s a year “for a few years”. Unless they radically change their production targets, its just a PR campaign.Very sad – I loved the looks of it on Leno.Here’s the article:http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10237614-48.htmlHopefully they’ll drastically enlarge their production targets and be able to get battery production capacity from somewhere, but I wouldn’t be betting on that.   (Quote)

    Just as random information that nobody really cares about (my specialty).

    You aren’t hearing a heck of a lot from Magna, but the plan is still for mid 2011. What is happening is they have created a subsidiary/division called Magna E-Car of America Inc. (and a couple others for powertrain, seating etc)…and those guys are coincidentally in Lansing, Michigan right today pitching themselves for credits to MEGA (Michigan Economic Growth Authority). Well actually it wasn’t a pitch, it was more like a ‘sign the deal,’ shake some hands and have a photo op…it is a done deal as of about 3 hours ago.

    Not a good idea (from a corporate prospective) to detail what, when and where you are going to do something, when you are still working to not pay any state tax on the whole thing.

    Magna just purchased a fairly large building Auburn Hills last month, where they are reported going to do all the jazzy stuff with the packs, and have sub-assembly/components in Troy and Shelby (with a little messaging to hometown Lansing of course). This would go along with the facility they have already ‘tax-insured’ against in Grand Blanc Township.

    Now that the dollar bills are locked down we should get a update fairly shortly…especially with all the Leaf frenzy. Regardless, it will still be a very, very low volume car for Ford through 2012, although from the look of the setup, they should be able to produce a lot more…just might not be for Ford. (Dunno on that one…just a guess).


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    Noel Park

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:25 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow: Damn!
    That’s alot of strippers there!!!

    oh, charging poles……
    SAME THING!!!!

    #141

    Speaking of which, did you happen to see this week’s episode of the new HBO series “Treme”? It’s about N’awlins and the aftermath of Katrina. Really excellent, IMHO. Anyway, they had a Bourbon Street stripper pole sequence which would just about stop your heart. Or maybe I’m revealing my age, LOL.


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    Starcast

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:31 pm)

    Hashish Jihadi: However many hypermilers will get far more. Just like the Tesla Roadster manufacturer mileage is 225 but many people have gotten 300 mile range.

    I am falling out of my chair at the thought of a “hypermiler” driving a Tesla Roadster. That would be a funny sight. Cool Tesla sports car getting passed by everyone. Driving like a grandma in Tesla thats a Classic!! Thanks for the good laugh.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:35 pm)

    statik: Just as random information that nobody really cares about (my specialty).

    #163

    My Dad used to say, “My mind is filled with facts not worth knowing”, LOL.

    Actually very informative, as always. Thanks. +1


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    Sasparilla

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:38 pm)

    statik:
    Just as random information that nobody really cares about (my specialty).You aren’t hearing a heck of a lot from Magna, but the plan is still for mid 2011.What is happening is they have created a subsidiary/division called Magna E-Car of America Inc.(and a couple others for powertrain, seating etc)…and those guys are coincidentally in Lansing, Michigan right today pitching themselves for credits to MEGA (Michigan Economic Growth Authority).Well actually it wasn’t a pitch, it was more like a ’sign the deal,’ shake some hands and have a photo op…it is a done deal as of about 3 hours ago.Not a good idea (from a corporate prospective) to detail what, when and where you are going to do something, when you are still working to not pay any state tax on the whole thing.Magna just purchased a fairly large building Auburn Hills last month, wherethey are reported going to do all the jazzy stuff with the packs, and have sub-assembly/components in Troy and Shelby (with a little messaging to hometown Lansing of course). This would go along with the facility they have already ‘tax-insured’ against in Grand Blanc Township.Now that the dollar bills are locked down we should get a update fairly shortly…especially with all the Leaf frenzy.Regardless, it will still be a very, very low volume car for Ford through 2012, although from the look of the setup, they should be able to produce a lot more…just might not be for Ford.(Dunno on that one…just a guess).  

    Thanks for the additional info statik (Electric Focus – mid 2011), quite frankly whoever is/was running Magna and came up and ran with the idea of creating an “instant EV” components program they could offer the big manufacturers were some gutsy, visionary dude’s. Smart of Ford to jump on that.


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    LauraM

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:49 pm)

    statik: Now that the dollar bills are locked down we should get a update fairly shortly…especially with all the Leaf frenzy. Regardless, it will still be a very, very low volume car for Ford through 2012, although from the look of the setup, they should be able to produce a lot more…just might not be for Ford. (Dunno on that one…just a guess).

    Thanks for the info. I found it interesting. I agree that it’s not a good idea for the manufacturer to announce their plans that far in advance. Especially before getting state credits.

    It would just be nice, as a consumer, to know what will be on the market…


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    Christof

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:49 pm)

    Have to say I’m among what I believe are potentially millions, perhaps even tens of millions, of Americans who want the following combination in their garage:

    - 1 full EV
    - 1 PHEV

    In fact, I don’t really see the Volt and LEAF as in direct competition with each other in the long term precisely because of the fact that progressive, green, techno, and libertarian U.S. free of foreign oil influence folks are likely to come from comparatively affluent, educated, two-car households, and they will, over time, opt for both a PHEV and EV. The Volt will largely compete against other PHEVs as a result — at least until EV battery ranges go up and a charging infrastructure that allows for 15 to 30 minute charges emerges.

    I want to get an EV first, a PHEV next. OF course, I guess you could say that EVs and PHEVs are in competition in this sense. I would get a PHEV if there were no EV options, and two PHEVs rather than one EV and PHEV, if there were no pure EVs.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:53 pm)

    Randy: I agree 100% ONly if you have a grudge against your own country and your own fellow americans should you be buying a foreign car. IF foreigners bought as many american built cars as we buy theirs i would be OK wit it,but thats just not the case.

    Or, you might buy a foreign car if you want a high-quality small car with features and styling intended for an adult driver.

    (American manufacturers have done quite well when it comes to pickup trucks, SUVs, and minivans. I own a pickup truck with an American nameplate, and it’s a very good vehicle. But my last American-made sedan was enough to literally scare me (3 stuck gas pedals, one call to the fire department, one exploding muffler, several exhaust leaks, several brake failures) away from American small cars, until the Volt.)

    The problem with only buying American is that it allows American car makers to make inferior cars and get away with it. I want America to make the best cars in the world, so that I can buy one — doing it the other way around is putting the cart before the horse and rewarding non-competitive behavior.

    It sounds like American car manufacturers are beginning to turn around after the high-profile bankruptcies, but time will tell.


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    Itching4it

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (2:54 pm)

    I need a new car, and I need it fairly soon. The tranny on my old Civic is starting to sound a bit flaky.

    I don’t like the looks of the Leaf, and I don’t like the idea of a fifty mile leash, but I’m determined that my next car will run on electricity. If I can’t get a Volt before my Civic gives out, and I can get a Leaf, well then my dream car will probably just have to wait until the three year lease on a Leaf runs out.

    Yes, I’m putting down the $99 deposit, even though I’m still itching for a Volt. Come on, GM, don’t leave me twisting in the wind.


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    flat ulance

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:01 pm)

    Bev sales will equal erev sales. Both compliment each other with both benefiting from wide spread charging stations. The bev is the end game though.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:02 pm)

    One other observation, based on a read of about 40% of the 170 posts so far:

    - if these post are any indication, the profile of many LEAF buyers and many Volt buyers is radically different. Haven’t seen so much nationalistic blather on a car site as I’ve seen in some of the responses here. They’re radically different, for instance, from what one sees, generally, on the Nissan LEAF facebook fan page.

    It’s very anecdotal I know, but seems to me that there could be a tendency for Right-wingers to pick the Volt and Left-wingers to go for the LEAF or another BEV …


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:19 pm)

    LauraM: Thanks for the info. I found it interesting. I agree that it’s not a good idea for the manufacturer to announce their plans that far in advance. Especially before getting state credits. It would just be nice, as a consumer, to know what will be on the market…  (Quote)

    /agreed
    …and also with your earlier statement as well while I am at it, lol.

    LauraM: I wish Ford would be more specific about their electric car plans. I’m sure there are a lot of people who’d rather buy a Ford than a Nissan. Especially ones that are still built in Japan.  (Quote)


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    CocoEV

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:34 pm)

    “Buy American” isn’t it funny and a bit redneckish – do you realize that large part of the project, contractor LG Chem was S. Korean state funded project? So, in fact the S. Korean tax payer was paying bills for these advanced research programms for years and now it’s going to return them back as dividends, incl. this joint project with GM. In a similar vein, the U.S. tax payer paid in part for the development of the high end electronics used in the vehicle (inverter, emotor, charger). So, go figure..


  176. 176
    Itching4it

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:38 pm)

    Bill Marsh: Pure BEVs are not practical at this point. Even as a ‘2nd’ commuter car the 21 hour recharge time on normal house current, 5 hours if you spring for the 230v high amp charger in your garage make the thing unusable to me.

    Battery technology has to improve by a factor of at least 2 before they become usable (and recharge times will have to decrease by a factor of 3 or better).  

    There are some good reasons to call BEVs impractical, like range limits, but battery charge time is not one of them. For the same number of miles traveled on the battery you can charge a Leaf in about the same time as a Volt, and with the same choice of 120V or 240V. If you can’t charge a Leaf overnight at 120V then you must be driving a lot more than 50 miles per day. If you are driving that much, you will be spending a significant amount of money for gasoline in a Volt, probably at least $10 per week. In two years you will have spent at least as much on gas for the Volt as it would have cost for a 240V charge adapter with professional installation for the Leaf ($1100 after rebate).

    Look, I want a Volt as much as anybody, but I don’t like it when people throw up false “unusable” arguments.


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    Tom M

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:49 pm)

    Hey Jihad,

    Evidently you know precious little about EV’s and range so I’ll give you a little lesson. The claimed 100 mile range that Nissan is boasting was derived by using the EPA LA-4 cycle. This same cycle tested Lyle’s MINI-E to have a 156 mile range. It has been well established now that the MINI-E has a real world range of 85-100 miles or roughly 60% what the EPA LA-4 cycle achieved with the car. The MINI-E has a 35kwh battery pack and the Nissan Leaf has a 24kwh battery pack. The Leaf is more aerodynamic and weighs slightly less but you cannot get around the issue of the battery being about 30% smaller than the MINI’s. Many Ev experts have guessed the Leaf will actually go only 65-85 miles per charge depending on driving conditions and temperature. This is compounded by Nissan’s omission of an active thermal management system, opting to instead use a passive system that simply blows cabin air on the pack. Yes, I am closely watching the Leaf as I am the Volt, but to simply say “real world” talk is BS as you did shows how little you understand EV’s. You should definitely stick to the Volt so you won’t have to worry about complex issues like this.

    Hashish Jihadi:
    Hey Jersey,Every driver is different so “real world” is pure bs talk in the land of EV. The actual mileage will be 100 MILES PER CHARGE. However many hypermilers will get far more. Just like the Tesla Roadster manufacturer mileage is 225 but many people have gotten 300 mile range.
    You should have absolutely no problem getting more than 100 miles in your new sexy LEAF if you drive accordingly.  


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    West Coast Driver

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:57 pm)

    Gordon Green: I’ll go ahead and reserve a Leaf today.
    But if I ultimately buy it depends on when delivery is made.If GM can deliver the Volt to me earlier at a reasonable price, I’ll switch.The Leaf is a compromise, which I don’t like to do.But given the choice of nothing vs. something, I’ll choose something.I’ll get a three year lease, then choose a no compromise electric like the Tesla Model S, or perhaps the Infiniti Leaf clone when the lease expires.Or who knows, there will probably be lots of no compromise choices by then.  

    Ditto. Well said +1

    GO EV !!!


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    Itching4it

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:58 pm)

    Michael:
    It isn’t a matter of GM “doing this now.”Many individual Chevrolet dealerships have been accepting deposits for awhile now. Mine just decided that they would take my money. Like I said, I am the first at this dealer in Albuquerque. There is no guarantee that I will actually be able to order one soon, or receive one in a year. It’s just a step. What it does guarantee is that I get the first one to that dealer, who thinks he’ll get the first one in New Mexico.

    I suggest you go to the largest Chevy dealer in your area and start a discussion.  

    Been there, done that. All I got for my trouble was, “We’ll call you when we know something,” and a bunch of emails trying to get me to buy dinosaur cars.


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    Herm

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (3:59 pm)

    Tom M: Evidently you know precious little about EV’s and range so I’ll give you a little lesson. The claimed 100 mile range that Nissan is boasting was derived by using the EPA LA-4 cycle. This same cycle tested Lyle’s MINI-E to have a 156 mile range. It has been well established now that the MINI-E has a real world range of 85-100 miles or roughly 60% what the EPA LA-4 cycle achieved with the car.

    Tom, if the Volt can get 40 miles using 8kwh of capacity then the LEAF can get 96 miles using 19.2kwh.. your mileage can vary.


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    Zachary Taylor

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:03 pm)

    Herm:
    But you know what drives the size of the genset on an EREV.. the top speed on level ground and speed it can hold on a grade with a full load.You set those parameters and that decides how big the genset needs to be.A small wankel at high rpms will be hard to beat for weight… but it will cost GM $1 billion to set up the plant to make it.Smaller, lighter batteries are a more likely possibility.. perhaps you could save 200lbs on the 20AER Volt. The lighter weight should allow a less powerful motor with lower demands on the battery.  

    Well, there was lots I wanted to say about this, but I was not only modded but deleted. Let’s just say that you’re right about lighter/smaller batteries being more likely than a smaller engine.


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    West Coast Driver

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:07 pm)

    Well said Static!

    “I think it is a great day. Today, anyone in America who can afford a new car, has the option to put money down on a electric vehicle. Sure, it would have been great if this breakthrough was from GM, but this one time only, the domestic-foreign thing does not get consideration from me, there are too many other mitigating factors at play.
    For myself, it fits my mantra of “Any EV that I can service inside its electric range that also has at least 4 seats.” It will intially be a ‘plus’ car to the family, just to see if the Leaf’s billing lives up to my expectation of it, I will swap out a car for the Volt. “


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:08 pm)

    Itching4it:
    Been there, done that. All I got for my trouble was, “We’ll call you when we know something,” and a bunch of emails trying to get me to buy dinosaur cars.  

    I didn’t say I received the desired response the first time. I’m tenacious. Is this the largest, oldest dealer near you? Can you find another one without going *too* far? I skipped dealers 20 and 35 miles away to go to this one 100 miles away. Right now it looks like I chose the correct one. 8-)


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:13 pm)

    Nelson: I just don’t understand one thing. If the Volt can obtain 40+ MPG in charge sustaining mode, why won’t GM make a car that runs continually in charge sustaining mode. 40+ MPG is better than any ICE only car GM has out there now

    In charge sustaining mode, the Volt has more or less the efficiency of a standard Prius kind of hybrid even though the mechanicals are different. And there you are at 40+ MPG. The big advance for the Volt is putting in that big, honkin’ battery to let it go those 40 sweet, silent miles before the petrol-beast fires up under the hood. With the Prius, I think it’s about twelve feet.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:16 pm)

    I will reserve one…just waiting for my e-mail. 100 mi range suits all my needs.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:26 pm)

    Michael:
    Thanks CorvetteGuy, that’s what I thought you were saying.The difference at my dealer is that we both understand that I just want the first one there and neither of us has any preconceived idea of when the first one will come to New Mexico.Rather than November 2010, we might be looking at May 2011, but that is just a *wild* guess.My deposit says they will order me one as soon as GM opens the order window, not when they will come.Awhile back we were told orders would be allowed in September 2010.A guy at my dealership confirmed that “GM 2011 Model Year passenger vehicle startup schedule” we discussed in February.That is also subject to change.I will keep you posted.  

    Hi Micheal,

    Quite a trek and seal of commitment to go that distance to get onto a list.
    You’ve been relentlessly attempting to corner that distant listing for some time now.
    Really impressive.
    From yesterday’s post regarding the 230 mpg EPA story, I realized that I’d save 90% of my monthly gasoline bill, because now that the 50 mpg Charge Sustain number seems unchallenged or uncorrected, that means the efficiencies when the genset are on will also be really incredible. Your 100 mile trip might cost you only something like ten bucks if you needed to get there and back.
    Do you have long commutes there in New Mexico?
    Most of Texas now is becoming one big megalopolis, where you don’t really need to go very far to be able to buy anything. Still, not having to buy much gas at all for a couple of weeks or months is really an appealing thing.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:29 pm)

    Herm:
    Tom, if the Volt can get 40 miles using 8kwh of capacity then the LEAF can get 96 miles using 19.2kwh.. your mileage can vary.  

    Herm, I’m not saying it’s impossible for it to go 100 miles. I’m just pointing out that the range the EPA gets using it’s LA-4 cycle road test has proven to be inaccurate. If the MINI-E achieved 156 miles using the same test, what does that say the LEAF will get? Why would the leaf have a real world range of exactly what the EPA test achieved when the MINI’s real world range proved to be 65-70% of what the same test showed?

    The Volt has a true 40 mile range as proven by GM. If GM used the same EPA LA-4 cycle test to achieve 40 miles on the Volt, I’d be saying the same thing about it also. It’s good for GM that they didn’t rely on that inaccurate test.


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    Tagamet

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:32 pm)

    Michael: I know, Tag, sites that shall remain unnamed. Deal with it. :-)

    And yet you post it…. (g).

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    DonC

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:35 pm)

    Dan Petit: Needing transportation that is safe is the real factor that is above a cost-saving design intent for such a critical component to be made to the inferior way you mentioned.

    I buy all the safety options but my guess is that is unusual. People just don’t like to pay for safety because we’re all convinced we’ll never get in an accident — until we do. In a like vein, where I live only about 10% of homeowners have earthquake insurance even though they’re completely freaked out by earthquakes.

    Sometimes I just don’t understand priorities. In many places the water pipes are getting to be a hundred years old but people don’t want to pay to have them replaced, even though it would probably cost less than what they pay for cable TV. Who in their right mind would rather have cable TV than clean running water?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:39 pm)

    Christof: One other observation, based on a read of about 40% of the 170 posts so far:- if these post are any indication, the profile of many LEAF buyers and many Volt buyers is radically different. Haven’t seen so much nationalistic blather on a car site as I’ve seen in some of the responses here. They’re radically different, for instance, from what one sees, generally, on the Nissan LEAF facebook fan page.It’s very anecdotal I know, but seems to me that there could be a tendency for Right-wingers to pick the Volt and Left-wingers to go for the LEAF or another BEV …  

    That’s a VERY broad brush based on ~90 bits of data. Similar to someone asserting that “Buy American” is somehow “redneckish”. Just an observation.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Michael

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:40 pm)

    Dan Petit: Do you have long commutes there in New Mexico?

    Yup. Closest city for significant shopping is Santa Fe at 35 miles. The big city is Albuquerque at 100 miles. Right now my old person car gets 25mpg, so round trip to Albuquerque with a little running around is 9 gallons or $25. However, yesterday I took the diesel truck (18mpg), so it was more like $38. :-(


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    statik

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:43 pm)

    Just as a random note because I haven’t seen a comment yet…I got a reservation email about a hour ago. So they are out there now.


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    James E

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (4:55 pm)

    Just got my reservation e-mail and putting down my $99….Who Ya!!


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    statik

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:00 pm)

    Here is a stupid question.

    color.JPG

    …is there any other color but black?


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    pjkPA

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:00 pm)

    Isn’t this site called GM-Volt?

    I come here to read about the VOLT not a rush to market iffy electric.

    We should discuss why a VOLT is going to cost $60,000 in Japan… and why we are spending American taxpayer money to pay a Japanese company $7,500 for each electric car?


  196. 196
    statik

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:04 pm)

    Random other stuff:

    loaded.JPG

    final.JPG


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    DonC

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:05 pm)

    statik: Regardless, it will still be a very, very low volume car for Ford through 2012, although from the look of the setup, they should be able to produce a lot more…just might not be for Ford. (Dunno on that one…just a guess).  

    That’s all very interesting. Not sure how you get this stuff but it’s invariably interesting.

    You are, however, going to have to eat some of your words. You’ve said you will only buy black cars. You’ve also said you will buy a Leaf. Having gone through the reservation process I can tell you that AFAIK there will be no black Leaf. White. Silver. Blue. Red. But no black. So what’s it going to be? LOL (Actually there is a black — only kidding).

    EDIT: I see you’re on the reservation site. Darn! Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! Didn’t even get a chance to get you going. (I got my email at 5:27 EDT if it matters. Actually seems delivered later than yours).


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:13 pm)

    statik: Now that the dollar bills are locked down we should get a update fairly shortly…especially with all the Leaf frenzy. Regardless, it will still be a very, very low volume car for Ford through 2012, although from the look of the setup, they should be able to produce a lot more…just might not be for Ford. (Dunno on that one…just a guess).

    Statik, thanks for the info.

    If the Leaf media frenzy turns into a Leaf buying frenzy — I wonder if GM would be looking into a “Magnafied” Cruze to bridge the gap until a proper BEV was developed. Might be a way for them to get something cost competitive out sooner rather than later.

    /the Leaf’s “neopolitan” paint job looks pretty sweet


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    ocryan

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:14 pm)

    Just reserved mine, now I need a Volt so I have the pair. Leaf for my regular daily 50-60 miles of driving and the Volt for the wife and further drives. Then when the Leaf lease is up the EREV Orlando should be ready to go so I’ll have the Orlando/Volt pair.

    I’m in California, so it’s a $20k car, hopefully they can work that discount in with an even lower lease payment, if not probably makes more sense to buy it outright.

    I’d rather have a Volt now, but given the volume I don’t see it being a realistic purchase for another two years.


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    Itching4it

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:15 pm)

    Well, I got my reservation email, and went through the process. Three comments:

    1. For some reason, the website got confused and sidetracked me to information rather than registration. It could have been a browser problem (I was using Firefox) or a cookie problem. I started over with (shudder) Internet Explorer and got through fine.

    2. They asked for a credit card for the $99 deposit, and offered all the usual choices. But when I put in my American Express information they couldn’t seem to recognize it as a valid number. (AmEx numbers are in a different format and one digit shorter.) I switched to a Visa card and they were happy.

    3. They pushed hard to get me to upgrade from the basic version to the more expensive one. I don’t remember the trim level letters, but the lease was $30/month more. They said the basic trim was going to be in “very limited supply.” Since I really want a Volt anyway, and want the earliest date I can get on whatever I get, I signed up for the higher price, thinking that will help encourage me to go for my dream Volt.


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    john1701a

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:20 pm)

    baltimore17: In charge sustaining mode, the Volt has more or less the efficiency of a standard Prius kind of hybrid even though the mechanicals are different.

    Huh?

    Volt weighs 800 pounds more, the engine doesn’t use the Atkinson cycle, and it must convert mechanical energy to electricity rather than use it directly.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:24 pm)

    DonC: Not sure how you get this stuff but it’s invariably interesting.

    methinks the words “subscription required” don’t slow him down


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:26 pm)

    Michael:
    Yup.Closest city for significant shopping is Santa Fe at 35 miles.The big city is Albuquerque at 100 miles.Right now my old person car gets 25mpg, so round trip to Albuquerque with a little running around is 9 gallons or $25.However, yesterday I took the diesel truck (18mpg), so it was more like $38.   

    So, would you figure that the Volt will save you something like 85% of your fuel bill each year?
    I figured that Volt would save me $2700 a year (@ $2.65 a gal.) in gas (@19k mi./yr.). The gas savings will likely increase to $3,000 a year if the cost of gas hits $3.00/gal. ($15,000.00 over the life of the loan).

    I also figured that the electricity cost would be completely offset by the lack of a need for so much maintenance, such as two (of 4) synthetic oil changes annually, a brake job every other year, annual trans fluid changes (due to my high heat, high annual mileage every year), and etc.


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    V=IR

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:32 pm)

    Haven’t gotten email yet, but NissanEV tweeted:
    “We’re happy to see reservations coming in. Due to high volume, we’re extending the window until 9 pm EDT tonight. Hang in there!”


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    Roy H

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:34 pm)

    tom w,
    I see you have decided to take Statik’s good advice. I think that GM will ramp up Volt production faster than they have been letting on. GM has also said that people who purchase a Volt from an initial release area and live elsewhere will be able to get service at their local dealership. I am optimistic that people will be able to buy their Volts sooner rather than later.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:39 pm)

    baltimore17:
    In charge sustaining mode, the Volt has more or less the efficiency of a standard Prius kind of hybrid even though the mechanicals are different.And there you are at 40+ MPG.The big advance for the Volt is putting in that big, honkin’ battery to let it go those 40 sweet, silent miles before the petrol-beast fires up under the hood.With the Prius, I think it’s about twelve feet.  

    Now you’ve done it, baltimore17. (LOL), you said the “P”[ee] word.

    Please don’t make me get out the “big guns” again.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:42 pm)

    Well I know that the poll is all about enthusiastic EV supporters but I think it is fantastic that 2 out of 3 who signed up are opting to make their deposit. Nissan has said that 118000 people have signed up, if this 2 out of 3 holds up they will have 78000 cars sold in a few days. They were hoping for 25000 by the end of the year. Assuming there is a higher percentage of serious buyers on this site than in the general population it still seems reasonable that they will exceed their 25k goal within a week!


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    Gary

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:43 pm)

    Yes, I just put in my reservation in for a Leaf through their website, and fully intend to buy it when my number is called. I can hardly wait! We are a two-car household, and the Leaf will be a perfect vehicle for my daily 50 mile round trip daily commute to replace my Volkswagen Golf. My other vehicle is a gas car for longer trips and in the future might be a Volt or other ERV – no compromises necessary with the Leaf. I think based on many comments I have read in the past, many commentors on this website are vastly underestimating the Nissan Leaf target market as there are millions of people in my situation.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:46 pm)

    DonC: That’s all very interesting. Not sure how you get this stuff but it’s invariably interesting.You are, however, going to have to eat some of your words. You’ve said you will only buy black cars. You’ve also said you will buy a Leaf. Having gone through the reservation process I can tell you that AFAIK there will be no black Leaf. White. Silver. Blue. Red. But no black. So what’s it going to be? LOL (Actually there is a black — only kidding).EDIT: I see you’re on the reservation site. Darn! Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!! Didn’t even get a chance to get you going. (I got my email at 5:27 EDT if it matters. Actually seems delivered later than yours).  (Quote)

    Pfft, no black. How you make me laugh Don. Although I am glad I got through the reservation site before you taunted me with that.

    As you know I have a long standing war against blue as a color choice for a car…especially Robin’s Egg blue. It would have be rough to be forced into any non-black car that I have waited on for so long.


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    James

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:46 pm)

    Hey everybody, how are y’all doin’ today? I think it’s a GREAT DAY! Just think, three years ago we were all sitting around dreaming of a lithium battery in a plug-in car. One year ago, we were pining away, hotly anticipating these coming months, and some of us were contemplating playing Lotto just to get a chance to buy a Tesla – now the roadster is not even going to be produced much longer. We have all been like the “Hot Stove League” of the future of transportation, speculating when this lithium-batteried dream car would surface, and today – we have TWO….2 nearly on the streets!!!! Yes, dang it, it is a GOOD GOOD DAY! Spring Training for ELECTRIC CARS is nearly over and a competitive regular season is in sight!

    Competition is always good. Even though the Volt and Leaf match up kind of like Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettitte, Randy Johnson, or Roger Clemons against some new greenhorn just up from the minors, L :) L . The Leaf can be the rabbit for the big dog Volt to chase – sure it’ll be out of the box earlier, but Volt will surely overtake if GM builds them in big numbers.

    FOOD FOR THOUGHT DEPT.: Haven’t read all posts, been really busy today, so not sure if anyone’s mentioned this yet – Go to EV Clubber sites and everyone is posting that this public charging station or that is blocked by ICE’s, or just plain not being used. Costco has many charging stations in California and a few in Arizona and Colorado, yet online you see photos of shopping carts or ICE’s parked in EV charging spaces at many Costcos, and nobody really cares much. The reason? Well , DUH , There aren’t many EVs out there to use them. Because of Nissan, my friends, THIS IS ABOUT TO CHANGE! HURRAY!!!! We all need to feel a spring in our step about that. Leaf’s headstart in the marketplace also gives GM more motivation to get the Volts on the road. And it makes certain that more municipalities and companies will be installing more chargers. IT’S ALL GOOD – people – IT’S ALL GOOD.

    I only wonder if GM top brass want to see Leaf crash and burn – to hear horror stories about stranded drivers, and buyer’s remorse, or see it prosper and get the EREVolution party started.
    I’d hope GM is saying – “Go ahead, buy Nissan plug-ins, WE’LL MAKE MORE!” ( and better, of course ).

    RECHARGE! James

    IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:00 pm)

    I got the email, here’s what it had. I cut out all the propaganda sh|t….
    Of course no info on batt pack warranty.

    ————————————————————————————————————

    MSRP $32,780.00 Before Tax credits.
    Or
    $349 a month / 36 month lease

    When sales commences in December 2010, limited quantities available in select markets/states thru online reservation system. Increased avail. in Spring 2011 with full market rollout thru 2012. At start of sale, one order per household address until avail. increases.

    [1]After fed tax value subj to taxpayer’s eligibility to offset maximum $7,500 in fed tax credits. Must incur fed. tax liability to receive max. benefits. Consult your tax professional.

    [2]Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price. Dealer sets price.

    [3]Estimated mo. paymt based on proposed offer which is subj to change. Estimates include assumed residual, money factor, & acquisition fee amounts. Excludes tax, title, & license. $1,999 initial payment required at consummation (includes $1,650 down paymt & $349 first mo. paymt). 2011 LEAF SV subject to avail. to well qualified lessees through Nissan-Infiniti LT (“NILT”). Subj to credit approval. Based upon $33,600 MSRP including dest. charge. Adjusted Net capitalized cost of $24,441 includes $7,500 manufacturer incentive for fed tax credit available to NILT by law, and $595 non-refundable acquisition fee. Dealer contribution may affect actual price set by dealer. Mo. paymts total $12,564. Lessee is responsible for maintenance and repair. Lease paymt excludes cost of EVSE/charging dock charging equipment. Security deposit not req. Disposition fee due at termination of lease term. See participating dealer for details. Finalized lease terms will be announced at start of sales in December 2010.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:04 pm)

    250 volts: Instead of throwing up road blocks as to why BEV’s can’t succeed we need to focus on the pluses of growing this technology

    We need to focus on EREVs and sustainable bio-fuels. That’s a carbon neutral solution that can replace gasoline using our current infrastructure of 110 volt outlets and liquid fuel filling stations.


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    yoyo

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:05 pm)

    just reserved mine, would urge everyone to do the same. think of it as a free hedge in case the volt never got released


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    jbfalaska

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:06 pm)

    Applause for every manufacturer helping the world defray the addiction to Middle-East terrorist funding oil. May God Bless the USA.

    CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED. Every dollar eventually will flow through our American economy rather than funding our ownership by countries that despise our way of life.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:07 pm)

    john1701a: Volt weighs 800 pounds more, the engine doesn’t use the Atkinson cycle, and it must convert mechanical energy to electricity rather than use it directly.

    Yall probably gonna flame on me but john, you have to also add that the DC converted from the genset has to go through another conversion to 3phase either AC to drive the motor.
    Many conversions have to occur to get it to the AC induction motor.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:08 pm)

    Really helpful post CJS!

    The devil is in the details, looks like.


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    Dave G

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:10 pm)

    Zachary Taylor (Jackson): This kind of objection is overblown. Compare it to user-refilling a metal tank with a liquid explosive under circumstances in which vapors can be ignited by a spark of static electricity.

    Contrary to popular opinion, gasoline and other liquid fuels don’t explode easily. They are far more safe than a half mega-watt connection to a car with snow all over it.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:11 pm)

    Herm:
    There is no hypermiling an electric vehicle, the only thing that will work is slowing down, and avoid using the friction brakes.. that or drafting a semi truck.  

    This statement surprises me. Are you saying that going 0-60 in ten seconds uses half as much energy as going 0-60 in twenty seconds? (Half as much, because after the slow acceleration you will have traveled twice as far.) Or are you counting the extra five seconds added to your trip time as “slowing down”?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:15 pm)

    Dan Petit: Really helpful post CJS!

    The devil is in the details, looks like.

    I aint gonna lease, i’ll tell you that! But, unfortunately I can’t even afford the leaf even at the lease. :-(

    /dang CA economy…..


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    James

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:15 pm)

    I just hope it doesn’t come down to this lingering dilemma for me — contemplating that available Leaf, down there at the Nissan dealership, waiting there – lithium batteries, plug and five seats just yearning to be driven out and about. Thinking about that nice lease and all the upsides…. how it’s available now…..

    But holding on for that Volt……driving my Prius and watching that real-time display showing 47mpg, when I know I could be getting 40 All Electric Miles….or 100……… Just holding out for my sweet Volt – but watching all those guys with their Leaves, contented and actually driving on zero gas! such a choice! Oh the pain!

    Sure the Volt is sexy and alluring, and the Leaf? — Well, she’s useful and would meet my needs and she’d teach me EV compromise.

    Why does this sound like me when I was in my teens — stressing over whether to date the “sure thing” next door, or wait for that sexy cheerleader that just may become available soon….maybe?

    packerwedding.jpg

    What to do?…………………… What to do?

    RECHARGE! James

    IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.


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    Dave G

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:17 pm)

    Dan Petit: I figured that Volt would save me $2700 a year (@ $2.65 a gal.) in gas (@19k mi./yr.). The gas savings will likely increase to $3,000 a year if the cost of gas hits $3.00/gal. ($15,000.00 over the life of the loan).

    This doesn’t sound right. The most similar car to the Volt today is the Prius. I figure savings closer to $500/year:
    volt_fuel_savings.jpg


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    Itching4it

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:19 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow:
    They should do the same thing here but build the charging stuff at a shopping mall shaded by Solar panels that feed the charge stations. Have “Valet Charging” spend some $$$ then come back to a full charge.

    /personally I hate going to malls though.  

    I think the answer is to resurrect drive-ins. You pull into a stall and are served by a car-hop on roller skates while your Volt or Leaf gets a quick booster shot.

    /or maybe I’m just getting old.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:21 pm)

    James: What to do?…………………… What to do?

    OMG dude you crak me the hell up!!!

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

    /need to catch breath……….


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:24 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow: I aint gonna lease, i’ll tell you that! But, unfortunately I can’t even afford the leaf even at the lease.
    /dang CA economy…..  

    No way I’d lease either.
    I’m hoping GM will surprise everyone next month or so, with a price in the low $30k’s
    But even if I can’t get one at #4 on the waiting list ’til next year at this time,
    I’d just be glad Volts are going to come out for people to buy.
    The way I figure it, there is always a really good side to when the time is right for me
    to be able to get one. So, I’ll just be patient like most everyone else for my turn.

    Glad you found that lease and posted it for us. It makes me sure now that I don’t want a lease. Thanks again, CJS.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:26 pm)

    James: …Sure the Volt is sexy and alluring, and the Leaf? — Well, she’s useful and would meet my needs and she’d teach me EV compromise.

    Why does this sound like me when I was in my teens — stressing over whether to date the “sure thing” next door, or wait for that sexy cheerleader that just may become available soon….maybe?

    SAVE YOURSELF FOR THE CHEERLEADER, JAMES!

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:27 pm)

    OK, I have read hundreds of comments now about Volt being an American car and Leaf being a Japanese car, therefore we should buy the American car. Reality check here everyone – GM and Nissan are both multi-national corporations with ownership and operations in many countries. Nissan is building a factory in Tennessee where all the Leafs sold in America will be built after the initial small production run. Both Volt and Leaf will have many components built outside the country, probably lots from China. I am willing to bet that if you break out what percentage of every dollar spent on a Volt or a Leaf will stay in America, they will be about the same for both cars.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:32 pm)

    Dan Petit: So, would you figure that the Volt will save you something like 85% of your fuel bill each year?

    Way too early for me to tell. BTW my earlier calcs were based on current gas price of $2.77.9 and Diesel at $3.04.9. I currently save the most by taking the bus for local transportation. So I think those costs would go up, since I’d be prone to taking the Volt everywhere instead of the bus. ;-)


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    Tagamet

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:33 pm)

    Dan Petit: …I’m hoping GM will surprise everyone next month or so, with a price in the low $30k’s
    But even if I can’t get one at #4 on the waiting list ’til next year at this time,
    I’d just be glad Volts are going to come out for people to buy.
    The way I figure it, there is always a really good side to when the time is right for me
    to be able to get one. So, I’ll just be patient like most everyone else for my turn….

    Amen! And I’m hoping for a bundle of more specific info on the release procedure for the Volt – which States, how many, WHEN, etc. It feels like GM has played their cards pretty close to the vest the last couple of months. I’m not ready to settle for the “girl next door”, but it sure would be nice to be able to start making some plans – even if they are long term plans.

    Be well and believe,
    Tagamet

    Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:38 pm)

    No, DaveG,

    The vehicle I am driving NOW gets 20.5 miles a gallon.
    I am comparing what is now to what is in the future.
    You just know I can be really entertaining with what I was going to say
    about “you-know-who” comparing the fixed efficiency rpms in Volt cs mode to, well,
    a different kind other car’s “fixed” rpms, (ahem!!!!!!) didn’t you? (lol).
    (You must have seen that post I was writing and backspace-erased in compliance
    to Tag’s pdnftt admonitions.)
    (But no, you have naughtily attempted to tempt me beyond politeness, and,
    no, I will not go for it, (lol) not at all!! (lol). Remember that Tag says pdnftt!
    You know it’s not my policy to taunt the “P”[ee] “nut” gallery. NO Siree Bob!
    We should all turn over a new Leaf!! (Umm, did I say that?)


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:43 pm)

    i live in frankfort-where do you live ? i put in my reservation for the leaf and i would like a volt to.


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    john1701a

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:44 pm)

    Dave G: This doesn’t sound right. The most similar car to the Volt today is the Prius. I figure savings closer to $500/year:

    Sure, by keeping miles driven low and the price of gas high.

    Being constructive & objective requires showing the other variations too.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (6:57 pm)

    statik: Here is a stupid question.…is there any other color but black?  

    #194

    White. Cuts down on the AC load = more AER.


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    Ram-Z

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:07 pm)

    I have a BEV, my 2000 Ford Ranger EV and love it but would not buy another BEV. The range limitation means it is limited as a third vehicle for our family. Unless a BEV gets to a point where the range is at least 280 miles and the charge is under 10 minutes, for me it will be relegated as a third vehicle. I will hold on to my Ranger which I plan to replace the lead acid batteries with Lithium.

    I have had 3.8kW solar panels now on my roof for about four months and am loving it. They are from SolarCity, another Elon Musk business, and was very impressed with their service. I highly recommend them.

    What I would really like is a larger vehicle, like Jeep Grand Cherokee size that is range extended and fully zero emission. I think Voltec/fuel Cell would be my preference. The Equinox is a little too small as we camp with the boy scouts and need to have room for at least six.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:13 pm)

    john1701a:
    Huh?Volt weighs 800 pounds more, the engine doesn’t use the Atkinson cycle, and it must convert mechanical energy to electricity rather than use it directly.  

    How about the fact that the Volt’s engine is tuned to run in the most efficient “sweet spot(s)” instead of up and down the rpm range. And how did the weight difference get to be 800#? I thought that the Prius weighed about 2850 and the Volt 3300?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:13 pm)

    john1701a: Being constructive & objective requires showing the other variations too.

    Go ahead:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/vzenu6hr/ebay_pictures/volt_fuel_savings.xls


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:18 pm)

    Itching4it: I think the answer is to resurrect drive-ins. You pull into a stall and are served by a car-hop on roller skates while your Volt or Leaf gets a quick booster shot.

    /or maybe I’m just getting old.

    #222

    Getting old? Naaaahhh! It’s a cool idea. +1 Bring it on. The derelict famous Johnny’s Broiler in Downey, CA was recently brought back to life as a Bob’s Big Boy. I drove by there last week and it’s actually a drive in. So there’s certainly hope for your great idea.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:19 pm)

    Gary: OK, I have read hundreds of comments now about Volt being an American car and Leaf being a Japanese car, therefore we should buy the American car. Reality check here everyone – GM and Nissan are both multi-national corporations with ownership and operations in many countries. Nissan is building a factory in Tennessee where all the Leafs sold in America will be built after the initial small production run. Both Volt and Leaf will have many components built outside the country, probably lots from China. I am willing to bet that if you break out what percentage of every dollar spent on a Volt or a Leaf will stay in America, they will be about the same for both cars.  

    Totally wrong!… Why do the Japanese put a $20,000 tariff on every car we send there?

    It’s this stupidity that is trashing our economy.

    If building a plant in the US would be good for the US the Japanese would let other countries build plants in Japan .. .that will NEVER HAPPEN.

    The profits from just one of the Japanese plants is a half a Billion dollars a year… that money leaves our economy… add that to the fact that they are NOT PAYING US TAXES.

    Stop being so blissful!


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:27 pm)

    Gary: OK, I have read hundreds of comments now about Volt being an American car and Leaf being a Japanese car, therefore we should buy the American car. Reality check here everyone – GM and Nissan are both multi-national corporations with ownership and operations in many countries.

    I agree. I’m not a GM fanboy. In fact, if it weren’t for the Volt, I wouldn’t even consider buying an American car. I’ve been burned too many times.

    I hope they understand the Volt needs to be reliable. This hasn’t been a strong point for GM:
    cr_car_chart.jpg


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    Sal MBA

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:47 pm)

    Just ordered mine. I didn’t know I had to pick my color today, so I went with Silver to cut down on A/C load, and of course it looks nice. :)


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    Dan Petit

     

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:50 pm)

    DaveG,

    The graph does not delineate that there might be a difference in the severity of the problems,
    just that there are a number of them. While there may be fewer problems, the next questions are when are they life-threatening (and how do you incorporate that into that graph), and, is the vehicle designed is such a way so that everything dies all at once value wise in the next year that is not depicted on the graph.

    If so, then there is a falsehood assigned to resale value and value retention if the graph only goes out to just before when everything collapses from a $15,750 dollar supposed resale value at the end of the biased graph, to a $1,500 trade-in value when the hybrid transaxle motor phase circuits are open circuited, and the service department says all you have is something worth $1,500.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:56 pm)

    Itching4it: Herm:
    There is no hypermiling an electric vehicle, the only thing that will work is slowing down, and avoid using the friction brakes.. that or drafting a semi truck.

    This statement surprises me. Are you saying that going 0-60 in ten seconds uses half as much energy as going 0-60 in twenty seconds? (Half as much, because after the slow acceleration you will have traveled twice as far.) Or are you counting the extra five seconds added to your trip time as “slowing down”?

    Herm is correct.
    The only reason it’s more efficient to accelerate slowly in a gas car is 1) the transmission needs to work its way up in gears and 2) the engine has varying efficiency over different RPMs
    The electric propulsion systems generally have a fixed gear (no transmission) and the engines do not have such variation in terms of efficiency and RPM.
    Essentially, in an electric car, you get a fixed amount of range for a given energy capacity, assuming perfect regen braking.
    The only losses in range will be due to 1) high speed driving/increased wind resistance 2) inefficient/partial regen braking and friction braking and 4) accessories heat/ac/radio/etc


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    canehdian

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (7:56 pm)

    P.s. I don’t give a damn about the leaf.
    I want a Focus EV.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:00 pm)

    Aggressive acceleration *IS* a factor, however, as GM stated, in losses toward the reduction of AER, as compared to less aggressive acceleration.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:02 pm)

    Dan Petit: The graph does not delineate that there might be a difference in the severity of the problems,
    just that there are a number of them.

    The graph comes from the April 2010 Consumers Reports issue. They have a lot more details in there – types of failures, failure rates for each model and year, etc.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:03 pm)

    Dave G: I hope they understand the Volt needs to be reliable. This hasn’t been a strong point for GM:

    It’s still not. On the other hand the data in your chart is quite old and differences are not as large today as they would have been ten years ago. For example, Ford probably makes more reliable cars that are as reliable as those made by Toyota or Honda.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:07 pm)

    DonC: On the other hand the data in your chart is quite old and differences are not as large today as they would have been ten years ago.

    The chart is not old. It’s from the April 2010 issue of Consumer Reports.

    In addition, if you look at years 1-4, GM seems to be doing worse than the rest recently.

    Sometimes reality bites.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:22 pm)

    canehdian: The only losses in range will be due to 1) high speed driving/increased wind resistance 2) inefficient/partial regen braking and friction braking and 4) accessories heat/ac/radio/etc

    I’m no expert here, but . . .pretty sure the way you accelerate will influence efficiency.

    Electric motors operate efficiently when close to their rated load. Accelerate too slowly (underload) or too quickly (overload) and the efficiency will drop off.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:23 pm)

    Dave G:
    The chart is not old.It’s from the April 2010 issue of Consumer Reports.  

    DonC is absolutely correct from the perspective that you need to read the graph backwards.
    This means that the vehicles in the first five year period are closer together than the second half of the test period from year 5 to year 10.
    If the graph is only a sample size for the same vehicles that are now all 10 years old, it is terribly biased and outdated as compared to one that is only 5 years old if the test sample set consists of the *very same* 10 year old vehicles.

    Staggered sample sets for every group of new years added in would make more sense as a trend. So, I would not be quite as convinced unless there was a sample set structure that was annually compounded with new composite samples added in each year. That would complicate things in the statistics, but it would be more representative after all, which is not indicated on the graph as the case. And, could have the capability to show improvement, which is the most important thing of all, not just a really crude measure of the raw number of problems.

    A turn signal bulb burn out problem is far different than an acceleration problem killing people.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:37 pm)

    Itching4it:
    I think the answer is to resurrect drive-ins. You pull into a stall and are served by a car-hop on roller skates while your Volt or Leaf gets a quick booster shot./or maybe I’m just getting old.  

    Looks like Chief Engineer Andrew Farah had the same idea.

    volt-big-boy-610.jpg

    Drive-Ins are alive and kicking! Up North in Vancouver, B.C. they have the White Spot drive-ins, where they bring you a long, thin “table” and stretch it inside the car and it hangs on both windows. Here in Seattle, there’s the Burger Masters, famous for burgers and crab n’ cheese melts. Car hops there shed the rollerskates for Nikes.

    I think chargers for Electric vehicles are best suited for those businesses where we’ll be inside for awhile. Costco has paved the way out West in California, Wal Mart has a couple “green” pilot stores with plug in parking spaces outside. Now we need to petition top-tier companies to follow suit, and their competition will jump in line.

    Right now I have a list of top companies, (Starbucks, Krogers, McDonalds, Home Depot, Lowe’s to name a few) I plan to contact. Remember, some companies are looking for opportunities to up their “green cred” in their communities – to offset negative PR they’ve gained for such things as selling mostly Chinese goods, or serving fat-filled foods.

    Let me know if you are contacting businesses re: EV charging stations in your area. :)

    RECHARGE! James

    IF YOU BUILD THEM THEY WILL COME.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:44 pm)

    Tagamet:
    Michael: I know, Tag, sites that shall remain unnamed. Deal with it. :-)

    Tagamet: And yet you post it…. (g).Be well and believe,
      

    Well, at least he misspelled it for you (transposing two letters).


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (8:57 pm)

    Michael:
    Yup.Closest city for significant shopping is Santa Fe at 35 miles. The big city is Albuquerque at 100 miles.  

    Ah, so you live in Los Alamos. Careful, many more hints like that and we’ll be able to Google your house.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:21 pm)

    Itching4it:
    Ah, so you live in Los Alamos. Careful, many more hints like that and we’ll be able to Google your house.  

    And your point is? Many people on this site say where they are from in general. I’ve said many times that I am from northern New Mexico. Did you you think I was on the verge of identity theft or something?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:22 pm)

    statik: Here is a stupid question.…is there any other color but black?  

    Some folks say black is the lack of color…
    http://www.colormatters.com/vis_bk_white.html
    Of course if you look at the reflection of a blue car reflected in a red car it will appear black.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color

    Now if I owned a dealership I would park all the cars in two rows.
    First row would be cars parked by shade from black to white.
    The second row would be parked by the color of the rainbow…

    The Beauty of a Volt…
    No hunting for color


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:26 pm)

    I am considering reserving LEAF for my wife, she never ever drives more then 50 miles per day, so hundred all EV mode sound plenty, plus she has much higher chances of running out of gas since she never looks at the gauge. I would probably go for a lease option.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:27 pm)

    statik, thanks for putting up the screenshots of the Leaf reservation process – its nice for everyone to be able to see what it was – you da’ man.

    Okay, Nissan has done its thing. GM, you’re up next.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:31 pm)

    PJK: Totally wrong!… Why do the Japanese put a $20,000 tariff on every car we send there?
    It’s this stupidity that is trashing our economy.
    If building a plant in the US would be good for the US the Japanese would let other countries build plants in Japan .. .that will NEVER HAPPEN.

    You are the one that is wrong, the Japanese do not impose any tariffs on American cars (and few requirements).. think about it.. would they dare to do it?.. no, there is still too much animosity left over from WWII. Do yourself a favor and google it.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:38 pm)

    Dave G: I agree. I’m not a GM fanboy. In fact, if it weren’t for the Volt, I wouldn’t even consider buying an American car. I’ve been burned too many times.I hope they understand the Volt needs to be reliable. This hasn’t been a strong point for GM:  (Quote)

    Unless I’m reading this chart wrong, it’s showing GM has about 1.3 problems per vehicle on average after 10 years and Toyota has about 0.65.

    As another example of distorting with statistics, one could say according to CR studies Toyota is twice as reliable GM. In reality, it is on average .65 more problems after 10 years. Big whoop! Both makers are pretty damn reliable and just about any other differentiating factor of concern to the buyer should take precedence. For me, making a $10,000+ from a domestic manfacturer to keep more of my dollars closer to home is a hell of a lot more important than the miniscule difference in reliability shown on this chart.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:48 pm)

    carcus1: I’m no expert here, but . . .pretty sure the way you accelerate will influence efficiency.
    Electric motors operate efficiently when close to their rated load. Accelerate too slowly (underload) or too quickly (overload) and the efficiency will drop off.  

    It has a small effect on efficiency, due to IR losses, but not really much compared to aerodynamic losses. It is true motors are optimized for a certain spot.. I guarantee you that the Volts traction motor is optimized for the EPA combined cycle.. average speed 48mph.

    Using the “Sports” mode will engage the brake regen motor to help the traction motor.. since that motor is optimized for regen braking then there will be a drop in efficiency when using the “Sports” mode for forward acceleration.

    Hypermilers get such fantastic mileages because they exploit the weakness of the gasoline ICE engine by using “pulse and glide” acceleration.. something you will never have to do with an electric motor.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:51 pm)

    Noel Park: #194White. Cuts down on the AC load = more AER.  (Quote)

    But for Statik black cuts down on the heat load and is more visible against the white snow background


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (9:58 pm)

    Noel Park: How about the fact that the Volt’s engine is tuned to run in the most efficient “sweet spot(s)” instead of up and down the rpm range. And how did the weight difference get to be 800#? I thought that the Prius weighed about 2850 and the Volt 3300?  

    The Volt will be under 4000lbs, from the recent Farah interview on Jay Leno “Garage”.. The Volt is based on the Cruze, and that already will be a heavy car, plus they add motors, a battery and assorted electronics. Fortunately weight does not affect range or CS mileage much.. but it does affect performance a lot.

    Yes, the Volt will use an atkinson cycle, they just dont want to call it that.. its the same thing they use in their 2 Mode trucks and SUVs. I forget the acronym they use.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:01 pm)

    Gary: OK, I have read hundreds of comments now about Volt being an American car and Leaf being a Japanese car, therefore we should buy the American car. Reality check here everyone – GM and Nissan are both multi-national corporations with ownership and operations in many countries. Nissan is building a factory in Tennessee where all the Leafs sold in America will be built after the initial small production run. Both Volt and Leaf will have many components built outside the country, probably lots from China. I am willing to bet that if you break out what percentage of every dollar spent on a Volt or a Leaf will stay in America, they will be about the same for both cars.  (Quote)

    You’re already off by about a $1B and they haven’t even gotten to the production lines, but I suppose in bailout bucks this is chump change.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:06 pm)

    CaptJackSparrow: [2]Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price. Dealer sets price.

    Ahhh…the price is the price except when it isn’t neccesarily the price.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:07 pm)

    I’m registered, but I’m not going to reserve a spot.

    I will *NEVER buy a pure BEV…

    NEVER = (unless they break the laws of physics and find a way to recharge in 5 minutes to 100% and these recharge stations are located everywhere there is presently a gas station).

    On the other hand GM has been less than transparent about the purchasing of the Volt. Some prices and a way to reserve buying one would be nice.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:21 pm)

    Okay curiosity got the best of me and I clicked on the link…

    NISSAN has to be given credit for at least making it seem as if you can actually buy one, versus the GM limited availability rollout of the Volt. Things that make you go Hmmmm.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:21 pm)

    Michael:
    And your point is? Many people on this site say where they are from in general. I’ve said many times that I am from northern New Mexico. Did you you think I was on the verge of identity theft or something?  

    No point. Just giving you a bad time. (Though I was about to say something a while ago about the place two blocks from our house that used to be an A&W drive-in, and decided not to because I’ve already admitted we have solar panels on our roof and … Oops, I guess I just let the cat out of the bag.)


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:26 pm)

    Herm: but not really much compared to aerodynamic losses.

    No doubt, speed is really going to be the key here for maximizing range on the BEV’s.

    This is where I think Ford/Microsoft’s sync can help out. There could be a fair amount of interaction between the driver and the nav system to maximize the usefulness of the car…..as taking the 40 mph avenues could double the range of the BEV compared to 75 mph freeways, knowing when to jump off and when you can stay in the fast lane will be important. I think the car and the driver talking to each other can be the easiest and safest manner for that interaction.

    Tesla roadster range vs. speed
    https://www.teslamotors.com/display_data.php?data_name=range_blog5

    New MyFord Touch navigation adds Eco-Route feature
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppjKJQpbVEk&feature=youtube_gdata

    // Hopefully ford will improve the system so you have the option of talking to the nav instead of all the touch entries on the screen.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:30 pm)

    Itching4it:
    No point. Just giving you a bad time. (Though I was about to say something a while ago about the place two blocks from our house that used to be an A&W drive-in, and decided not to because I’ve already admitted we have solar panels on our roof and … Oops, I guess I just let the cat out of the bag.)  

    OK, I get it. 8-) So, I suggest you go back to my first post of the day (#20) and let me know if you want to know more about the “dealer of choice.”

    Lot’s of people have solar panels here. I won’t tell a soul. A&W, you are old, aren’t you? Speaking of which, there was talk earlier of using “drive-ins” for Volt charging. Do you suppose we could turn it back into an A&W?


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    DonC

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:34 pm)

    Dave G: The chart is not old. It’s from the April 2010 issue of Consumer Reports.

    I was trying to make the point which Dan clarified, namely, that the edge of the graph where there is the greatest divergence are for vehicles made ten years ago. Now the graph claims this shows that cars age differently. That’s OK, but the only way the graph could show that would be if it followed a cohort of cars sold ten years ago. So is that what it is doing or not? If it is, then it’s only relevant for vehicles sold ten years ago. If it’s not, then not only is the person who created the graph brain dead, statistically speaking, but what the graph shows is how little difference in reliability there is between brands in recent years. (What would a graph showing this look like? Exactly like this one.)

    For CR’s sake you have to hope that it is showing a cohort (though I doubt it). Because if it doesn’t, then it raises the issue I’ve raised with you before, namely, how do you square the fact that insurance companies were reporting a huge upward spike in traffic accidents linked to mechanical failures and Consumer Reports nothing? Are you kidding me? If they missed this then what else are they missing and why would you pay any attention to them. Something is very wrong with these reports that they could miss a drop off in Toyota quality so great that the insurance companies were ringing the alarm bells.

    Finally, the graph is misleading in that it lumps too many different types of vehicles together. If you separated Ford trucks from Ford cars you’d get two different looking lines since the cars are much more reliable. So to some extent all this graph may be saying is that Honda and Toyota have a different mix of vehicles in their sales. We’ll never know that because, unlike JD Powers, CR doesn’t break out the lines by vehicle type.

    IOW you really need to park this thing cause it’s stinking up the place.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:38 pm)

    Herm: Fortunately weight does not affect range or CS mileage much.. but it does affect performance a lot.

    Mass affects performance and range and CS mileage. A lot. It’s all the same ball of wax.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:39 pm)

    Itching4it: No point. Just giving you a bad time.

    I just sent you a PM as “Sojourner.”


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:43 pm)

    Dave G: Go ahead

    Point out the cherry picking again? Mention the other factors not included? Why must I correct the misleading information?

    Whatever. I’m always intrigued how much continues to be excluded… like why no mention of Leaf?


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (10:58 pm)

    koz: Unless I’m reading this chart wrong, it’s showing GM has about 1.3 problems per vehicle on average after 10 years and Toyota has about 0.65.

    You’re not reading it wrong and your point is a great one. I would have used it but it would have been piling on.

    This is a good example of how to mislead with graphs. You see this all the time when someone wants to make a point which is really supported by the evidence — they show just a portion of the vertical axis. This allows you to make a small change look large because the universe has become smaller — a 1% change looks significant if you just show 2% of the graph. IOW you run the graph starting at 10 and ending at 12 rather than showing the entire axis from 0 to 20, and suddenly a revenue difference of 1 starts looking huge when in fact it’s not significant at all.

    This is just a variation of this misleading technique. They didn’t show just a portion of the vertical axis — if they showed it from 0 to 10 all the brands would be lumped together in a scrum around .5 — but they accomplished the same thing by using problems per hundred vehicles, which has the same effect of “exploding” the graph and making minor difference appear to be more significant than they are. Very bush league.


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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:44 pm)

    Lyle, change my vote…I got sucked into the hype and reserved a Leaf. I’m 99% sure I won’t buy one, but I’m just excited that I was able to do it.

    Where is the Volt reservation list?? Hello, GM are you listening???


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    Frank D

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    Apr 20th, 2010 (11:44 pm)

    56,000 pre-orders…good news for the first mass produced electric car!


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    John W

     

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (12:52 am)

    Herm:
    You are the one that is wrong, the Japanese do not impose any tariffs on American cars (and few requirements).. think about it.. would they dare to do it?.. no, there is still too much animosity left over from WWII. Do yourself a favor and google it.  

    I’m not so sure about this. I read something that said insurance on American cars was 3 times higher than on Japanese cars in Japan. And they had safety inspection tests that added 5k to American cars in the first place. I agree that a 20,000 dollar tariff sounds way too high but I was interested and found this information when I saw that GM only sold a couple thousand cars in Japan last year. That seemed ludicrous. And to the person saying GM and Toyota are both multi national corporations this is true.. But I’m sure way more GM and Ford money stays here in the U.S. and way more Toyota Nissan Honda money stays in Japan. Don’t kid yourself.


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    Herm

     

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (2:49 am)

    DonC:
    269
    Herm: Fortunately weight does not affect range or CS mileage much.. but it does affect performance a lot.
    Mass affects performance and range and CS mileage. A lot. It’s all the same ball of wax.  

    We need some data.. still it is surprising such a heavy car like the Volt gets such good range on so little battery. I worked it out once, an extra 1000lbs of passengers on a Volt would reduce EV range less than 1 mile.. assuming you drove it moderately.


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    Itching4it

     

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (3:34 am)

    John W:
    And to the person saying GM and Toyota are both multi national corporations this is true.. But I’m sure way more GM and Ford money stays here in the U.S. and way more Toyota Nissan Honda money stays in Japan.Don’t kid yourself.  

    I don’t have any facts at my disposal, but I’m sure that is a safe assumption — at least if by “money” you mean net profits. What I question, though, is how much of that $32,780 for a Nissan Leaf is going to be net profit. I suspect – again without any facts at my disposal (and they don’t exist yet) – that it will be a tiny fraction, perhaps nothing, initially.

    Now, given cars built in Japan at Japanese factories by Japanese workers using Japanese parts, there is a far larger part of that $32K going to Japan, but still not all of it by any means. Don’t forget the Nissan showrooms (paying American taxes), the Nissan salesmen (American jobs and more American taxes), the US Nissan executives (ditto) and the not inconsequential advertising blitz for the Leaf (American advertising firms, American TV stations, newspapers, magazines, etc.). All of this money also has to come out of that $32K and other Nissan cars sold here.

    Pile on top of that what is going to happen when Nissan starts building Leafs in an American factory (paying property taxes) by American workers (American jobs and more taxes) using many American parts suppliers. MOST of that $32K is going to stay right here in the good old USA.


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    Dave G

     

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (5:51 am)

    john1701a: Point out the cherry picking again?

    If you want to provide another data point, then go ahead. Otherwise, stop whining about it.


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    Apr 21st, 2010 (7:28 am)

    Dave G: If you want to provide another data point, then go ahead. Otherwise, stop whining about it.

    You continue to mislead by being selective rather than objective, I point it out. That’s how it works.

    When a driver exceeds annual driving distance of 15,000 miles, the dependency on CS-mode increases quite a bit… yet that’s never mentioned as if it doesn’t make a difference.

    When a driver has to deal with temperatures below freezing, the EV range takes a hit due to battery limitations in the cold and the need to run the heater. The engine will run for warm-up too when parked in a lot all day without an outlet available.

    The EV range is also reduced in the summer due to the need for A/C.

    None of those factors are mentioned. Price of the vehicle itself (as well as financing interest) is totally missing too.


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    Zel

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (8:58 am)

    I will admit I reserved one…..I had a Corbin Sparrow, so it being a BEV is not an issue for me…would love a VOLT, but unlikely I will see one any time soon…but it does not hurt to cover my bases.

    I want an American BEV or EREV as my next car…..but I need a car now….so lets see what happens.


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    Apr 21st, 2010 (10:05 am)

    koz: For me, making a $10,000+ from a domestic manfacturer to keep more of my dollars closer to home is a hell of a lot more important than the miniscule difference in reliability shown on this chart.

    #257

    Amen brother. +1


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    Apr 21st, 2010 (10:07 am)

    koz: But for Statik black cuts down on the heat load and is more visible against the white snow background

    #259

    Point taken. “The Great White North”, LOL. Better him than me. +1


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    Apr 21st, 2010 (10:15 am)

    Sasparilla: Okay, Nissan has done its thing. GM, you’re up next.

    #255

    Damn right. +1


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    Apr 21st, 2010 (11:42 am)

    I would not want a BEV until the technology is proven.

    My main concern is the battery retaining 100% charge over time when not being used.

    If I charge the car Monday night, leave it plugged in and not use it till Saturday morning will the Nissan charging system stop charging after a full charge Monday and not consume power? More than likely they will trickle charge the battery consuming more power to charge a battery that has already been fully charged and use the AC to run the charging cable too.
    What is the loss after 3-5 days of none use 20% ? Then my costs go up and the MPG will go down, not to mention the charging cable acting like an cellphone AC adapter using power even though the cell phone is not attached to the cable which is an additional cost.
    These things add up day after day after day.

    100 miles per charge at what temperature and will the on-board computer coach me to achieve that mileage? Hopefully Nissan will over build the battery to make the 100 miles normal not the exception for the life of the car.

    There is nothing more disappointing then to see your available mileage at drop from 80 to 55 Miles in a glance due to poor software.


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    Richard C

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (11:55 am)

    I am adding my enthusiastic support of CEO Ghosn’s vision of a world running on electrified transportation. Carlos is a visionary, as are most people here at the GM-Volt site. What we differ on is minute compared to the greatness of what we agree on. And that is the enormous step forward human society will take when it chooses to use clean sustainable energy sources such as electricity to replace outdated fossil fuels.

    Congratulations to Nissan and the Leaf Team for bringing a groundbreaking new concept to transportation. You and the Volt GM Teams are changing the world. For the BETTER. Thank YOU!!


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    RogerE333

     

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (12:37 pm)

    Zim Wolfe: If I charge the car Monday night, leave it plugged in and not use it till Saturday morning will the Nissan charging system stop charging after a full charge Monday and not consume power? More than likely they will trickle charge the battery consuming more power to charge a battery that has already been fully charged and use the AC to run the charging cable too.
    What is the loss after 3-5 days of none use 20% ? Then my costs go up and the MPG will go down, not to mention the charging cable acting like an cellphone AC adapter using power even though the cell phone is not attached to the cable which is an additional cost.
    These things add up day after day after day.
    100 miles per charge at what temperature and will the on-board computer coach me to achieve that mileage? Hopefully Nissan will over build the battery to make the 100 miles normal not the exception for the life of the car.
    There is nothing more disappointing then to see your available mileage at drop from 80 to 55 Miles in a glance due to poor software.

    …especially if you are 78 miles from home!! I think the LEAF is a fantastic start and it would be fine for my going back and forth to work, but I would have too much range anxiety to start pushing the limits. I suppose one could bring a little Honda generator along for emergencies, but that kind of defeats the whole point.

    As for your other comments, lithium batteries have a VERY low self-discharge, something like 1% per month (don’t quote me on that), so don’t worry about that issue. Also you never trickle charge lithiums, that leads to bad things (fire). I don’t know about Nissan’s charging circuitry and whether or not it uses power when disconnected from the car, but it seems like you could always just unplug/disconnect it.

    If I knew this vehicle was going to be 100% bulletproof with a long battery lifetime, I would be very tempted. I liked the Nissan Versa I had as a rental a year ago.

    If GM had a similar website thing for the Volt I would probably go for it, but only if there were no magic markups, AND I got to specify exactly what I wanted for options and color. Otherwise I think I will just wait for spring 2011 and see how things work out for the pioneers. As they say, you can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs.


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    Maurice

     

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (2:03 pm)

    QUOTE
    Vote -1 Vote +1
    Gary Says

    Apr 20th, 2010 (5:43 pm)

    Yes, I just put in my reservation in for a Leaf through their website, and fully intend to buy it when my number is called. I can hardly wait! We are a two-car household, and the Leaf will be a perfect vehicle for my daily 50 mile round trip daily commute to replace my Volkswagen Golf. My other vehicle is a gas car for longer trips and in the future might be a Volt or other ERV – no compromises necessary with the Leaf. I think based on many comments I have read in the past, many commentors on this website are vastly underestimating the Nissan Leaf target market as there are millions of people in my situation.
    QUOTE

    Gary,
    Yolkswagen is slowly waking up to the fact that the electric car might come a lot sooner than they had hoped. A paper from 2008 and informing us of the next twenty years states:
    “The road to a post-fossil fuel age will follow not a revolutionary but an evolutionary course – and the journey will still take many decades.”
    http://www.volkswagen.com/etc/medialib/vwcms/virtualmaster/de/Unternehmen/mobilitaet_und_nachhaltigkeit/downloads/sunfuel.Par.0021.File.pdf/RZ_sunfuel_06_GB.pdf

    They have just announced that the first all electric car will be the Golf which will be here at the LATEST in 2013. This is interesting because they were going to start with an ultra mini the e-UP, but have now decided to go in guns blazing with their bestseller and flagship the “Golf”.

    Interestingly they have also presented a design study of a taxi named “Milano” at the Hanover Trade Fair .
    This has only one door on the passenger side, i.e one can only enter from the curb side, and the luggage is placed next to the driver. The design chief states that this shows some of the design possibilities of the electric vehicle with the batteries under the floor of the passenger compartment allowing the wheels to be pushed out to the corners. This vehicle is shorter than a Polo but has the interior space of a Passat. The range would be a good 300 km – about 180 miles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xsqvyf8rMU

    Gary if you want to wait a little…..


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    West Coast Driver

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (3:41 pm)

    statik: Random other stuff:  

    Reserved with the Solar Roof Option!!


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    Apr 21st, 2010 (4:31 pm)

    I have to admit, after looking at some of the NissanUSA.com pix, that it is kinda cute with the front “mouth” open waiting to be fed. Rather like a baby bird in the nest wanting a worm from mother.

    Ugh, I can’t believe I said that!

    As for my earlier,

    “If GM had a similar website thing for the Volt I would probably go for it, but only if there were no magic markups, AND I got to specify exactly what I wanted for options and color. ”

    – let me add, “AND I was able to use the $4K saved up on my GM Card”. They’d better not try to gyp me out of my 16 years of savings (although I’m sure a lot has expired over that time).


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    DrHan

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    Apr 21st, 2010 (4:59 pm)

    Oh God. I bought a brand new Ford Focus. This is considered one of the best Ford cars. Sluggish, boring to drive, dry, rough. I will never buy a damn Ford again.

    If you only bought American cars for the sake of nationalism, then GM would be dead by now with or without bailout. We need to let GM fail and then we can buy cars from innovative American companies like Tesla and others.

    God Bless America. This is my home sweet home.

    joe: I buy only American cars , and I don’t expect to do differently in the future…..if only more people felt like I did, our country would be in much better shape economically. Today, the new Ford and GM cars are more then just equal, they are better! There are no good reasons to buy foreign….I know I’ll catch a lot of flak for saying this.To answer the question about the Leaf, I would not buy one even if it were American. The Leaf is a very limited car and many surveys suggest the Leaf will be a failure.Until batteries are much better and with the infrastructure in place, these pure electric cars will be sold in small numbers. Nissan is in for a rude awakening!Is that enough for opinions??  


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    Apr 22nd, 2010 (5:37 am)

    Altough I am not from America, my opinion is that as long as the LEAF is the only electric car you can get hold of, if you buy a LEAF, the benefit of saved oil outweighs the disadvantage of buying a non-American car…


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    John W

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    Apr 22nd, 2010 (7:44 am)

    Itching4it:
    I don’t have any facts at my disposal, but I’m sure that is a safe assumption — at least if by “money” you mean net profits. What I question, though, is how much of that $32,780 for a Nissan Leaf is going to be net profit. I suspect – again without any facts at my disposal (and they don’t exist yet) – that it will be a tiny fraction, perhaps nothing, initially.Now, given cars built in Japan at Japanese factories by Japanese workers using Japanese parts, there is a far larger part of that $32K going to Japan, but still not all of it by any means. Don’t forget the Nissan showrooms (paying American taxes), the Nissan salesmen (American jobs and more American taxes), the US Nissan executives (ditto) and the not inconsequential advertising blitz for the Leaf (American advertising firms, American TV stations, newspapers, magazines, etc.). All of this money also has to come out of that $32K and other Nissan cars sold here.Pile on top of that what is going to happen when Nissan starts building Leafs in an American factory (paying property taxes) by American workers (American jobs and more taxes) using many American parts suppliers. MOST of that $32K is going to stay right here in the good old USA.  

    This is all true but net profit is what it’s all about. It may only be 500 bucks a car but it all ads to the nations trade deficit. It’s in our best interest to keep every dollar here. Perhaps it’s the poker player in me that helps me understand this better. But if every player is equal in talent but the casino takes a small piece of every pot sooner or later there’s no money left to play with. This is why it’s important to buy from American Owned companies. It’s true a 30 thousand dollar car built in the US by a foreign company may help with some jobs now. But in the long run those jobs won’t be there.


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    RogerE333

     

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    Apr 22nd, 2010 (9:25 am)

    John W: This is all true but net profit is what it’s all about. It may only be 500 bucks a car but it all ads to the nations trade deficit. It’s in our best interest to keep every dollar here. Perhaps it’s the poker player in me that helps me understand this better. But if every player is equal in talent but the casino takes a small piece of every pot sooner or later there’s no money left to play with. This is why it’s important to buy from American Owned companies. It’s true a 30 thousand dollar car built in the US by a foreign company may help with some jobs now. But in the long run those jobs won’t be there.  (Quote)

    And, as I’m sure everyone knows already, “buying American” helps keep the *design and engineering* skills here. Once these skills are gone they are tough to get back. I’ve worked with some “old school” engineers who started back in the 50′s and 60′s, and their knowledge base was amazing. Unfortunately nearly all of them have retired now. Kids graduating from engineering school these days are mostly just good at looking things up on the web and talking on their cell phones. OK, I’ll stop the rant before I get going.